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Carlitos
24-06-11, 00:37
Perhaps one of the greatest sins of today is how short the collective memory. While Greece is pressed in a long agony seems endless and the Eurozone conditions for the country to support their extreme austerity measures are made to believe that the situation is the worst experience helena who has lived in Europe's history. And nothing could be further from reality.

The economic historian Albrecht Ritschl, a professor at the London School of Economics, believes that Germany is ignoring most of its history and what led to what it is today. In an interview with Der Spiegel and in this article for The Guardian, Ritschl points out that Germany was even more indebted to Greece in the last century and Germany invites the country to be more understandable to the crisis in the euro if it is to meet new demands remissions of 50% was applied in the Second World War in the payment of war reparations. Remember that Germany paid off the First World War, only in October 2010.


In the interview with Der Spiegel, which also collected Business Insider, Ritschl points out that the German government's attitude is unreasonable, since the failure to make payments that Germany starred in the twentieth century, with the first World War and the Second after World War has been one of the largest in history.

Costs of War
After the First World War, the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 demanded that Germany pay reparations or compensation to the winners. There were thousands of millions of gold marks, a huge amount that the country tried to take up that suspended payments during World War II by order of the Nazi regime of Adolph Hitler.

From 1924 to 1929, the Weimar Republic and even lived in the United States borrowed the money needed to pay war reparations. This credit bubble collapsed during the economic crisis of the 30 that dropped the gold standard not only existing but also the democracy of Weimar. The money disappeared, the damage to the United States was enormous "and the consequences for the world economy was devastating," says Ritschl, who is surprised at the brevity of the Germanic collective memory.

After the Second World War the situation was almost similar. And, to avoid the mistakes of the past, the U.S., then accepted the possibility of debt relief from Germany. Thus in the Treaty of London of 1953 was reduced by half the German debt and established that the payment of interest on foreign loans shall be suspended until the reunification of Germany, which occurred on October 3, 1990. "It was a gesture that saved his life," says Ritschl, and pemitió enable their economic miracle, he says. However, since 1990, the Germans have consistently refused to address the outstanding debt with several nations. As Ritschl says "have refused to open that can of worms."

The German non-payment was "the king of the default"
In fact, it was not until last October 2010 that Germany could terminate the share of payments of the First World War to make the last payment of that debt, 92 years after the war. For Albrecht Ritschl, the German default after the First World War "has been" the king of kings "of defaults, while Greece falls short of him." Ritschl believes that if the U.S. and other countries (including Greece) have not accepted the possibility of a remission in Germany, the Germany of today not be the same we know.

The historian notes that "no one in Greece has forgotten that Germany owes its prosperity to the consideration of other nations." Thus, in his opinion the only correct solution for Greece is to allow its default. The most reassuring, he believes, is that Greece is very small compared to Europe, so they accept a remission of their debt would not be a serious problem, unless it could be a possibility of infection.

"I have advocated for a long time away and not for a second rescue plan for Greece, for the same reason." Even with the optimism of the IMF, "the possibility that Greece can pay your debt is almost impossible." The country has two options: implement further cuts in exchange for more bailout money, or make default. In his view, the first option increases the chance that Greece will be able to pay, but the Greeks will be a disaster in their standard of living is concerned. So, for the Greeks, the default seems to be the best option.

It is time that the Germans remember the promises made in 1990 when he announced that Europe would compensate in other ways. The only country at that time refused and Germany openly defied demanding compensation in the courts was Greece. Now is the time that Germany must fulfill the promise.
http://www.elblogsalmon.com/entorno/historiador-llama-a-alemania-a-no-olvidar-que-tiene-una-gran-deuda-con-grecia

Antigone
24-06-11, 05:17
Thanks for posting that Carlitos, it is a shame I cannot read your link.

The nonsense and misinformation coming out of Germany (and to some extent France) is puzzling and has become tiring in the extreme. Daniel Cohn-Bendit summed it up rather nicely here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGkP68AVTI

Reinaert
24-06-11, 16:07
@ Carlitos,
It was a big mistake by the British and French to let Germany pay after WWI.
Remember WWI was in fact a clash between Austria and Serbia.
Where Serbia rose against the bad treatment they got from Austria.
After WWII Germany didn't have much.
Repeating the same mistake would have been again a disaster.
Another point is Greece has a socialist government, and there are some countries that do anything to block left wing governments.
The same happened in Spain and Portugal.

@ Antigone

Daniel Cohn Bendit is very right about the arms sold by European countries to Greece.
The Dutch already sold several frigates to Greece, some were only 10 years old! Why?
In The Netherlands there was a lot of confusion about it!
The Dutch Navy is now smaller than ever!
And that for a country that depends on sea traffic.
It is a scandal!
Greece had to borrow money for the defense of the south flank of the NATO area, and now some European vultures want to get money back with a high interest!
It's outrageous, and there is of course corruption involved.

Mzungu mchagga
24-06-11, 20:49
This is a very tough and sensitive question here in Germany. Of course most people here agree that it was more than unlawful that Germany stole or destroyed most of the European property during WWII. And yes, young Germans are ashamed of this!
After WWII Germany suffered from bankruptcy as any other European nation, all the money Germans had stolen from other countries was busted at once. So it would not be correct to say that German wealth of today is based on investments from stolen money, but rather that German wealth of today is not justified for not having paid it's debts yet.*

I don't think that young Germans of today are willing to pay for the sins their grand or also grand-grand parents have done. On the other hand, young Greeks were not asked either when they were forced to pay for the mistakes of their authorities or for the loss of their relatives in WWII. It becomes a rather philosophical question now: Is it righteous to compensate injustice for injustice?


*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.

iapetoc
24-06-11, 22:38
This is a very tough and sensitive question here in Germany. Of course most people here agree that it was more than unlawful that Germany stole or destroyed most of the European property during WWII. And yes, young Germans are ashamed of this!
After WWII Germany suffered from bankruptcy as any other European nation, all the money Germans had stolen from other countries was busted at once. So it would not be correct to say that German wealth of today is based on investments from stolen money, but rather that German wealth of today is not justified for not having paid it's debts yet.*

I don't think that young Germans of today are willing to pay for the sins their grand or also grand-grand parents have done. On the other hand, young Greeks were not asked either when they were forced to pay for the mistakes of their authorities or for the loss of their relatives in WWII. It becomes a rather philosophical question now: Is it righteous to compensate injustice for injustice?


*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.

well italians build a Hydroplant
at least germany could build something to push greek economy
2-3 hospitals, or a train expand etc.
the case is not that germany is owning some money to greece, or Greece to germany
I belive carlitos is also mentioning the damage that germany done to spain by cucumbers
it is another to owe one or 2 and settle it and another not to settle.
In fact Germany that many times never paid the owe, ppushes Greek to pay,
While an exit from euro will be disaster from Germany,

Carlitos
25-06-11, 02:39
Brussels recommends Greece to sacrifice their firstborn to placate the markets.

Markets Fury is unleashed on Greece and Moody's, its representative on earth, says it will not be easily appeased. Brussels therefore recommends that the country offering their first-born labor as garbage, subhuman wages and hellish conditions.

"Maybe, just maybe, this generation to sacrifice to get the pressure to release their divine markets," said an analyst from the IMF, "the ways of the market are mysterious ..."

Antigone
25-06-11, 07:06
*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.

By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons. Rather Greece is paying for its own debt plus the German debt AND Germany makes a fat profit along the way. Seems to me that instead of complaining the Germans should be thanking the Greeks!

Or by them, do you mean the German government paying for the bank's mistakes? Well Germany is not alone there, it was the greed of the banks who got the world into the current mess and it is the people who are paying for it whilst the banks go on repeating the same mistakes. Welcome to capitalism, isn't it grand?

Mzungu mchagga
25-06-11, 16:54
By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons. Rather Greece is paying for its own debt plus the German debt AND Germany makes a fat profit along the way. Seems to me that instead of complaining the Germans should be thanking the Greeks!

Or by them, do you mean the German government paying for the bank's mistakes? Well Germany is not alone there, it was the greed of the banks who got the world into the current mess and it is the people who are paying for it whilst the banks go on repeating the same mistakes. Welcome to capitalism, isn't it grand?

No, with 'them' I meant our grand-parents who took the spoils from Greece in WWII. Now, 66 years later, they are either dead or nearly as.
Most young Germans feel confused when all of a sudden now they are told that all the wealth they have is the result of spoils their grand-parents had taken from other countries and have to pay back, now. Most Germans have never set a foot on Greece, and studied and worked just like any other European people. Of course if every country would claim it's spoils and damages back -and imagine charges aswell- Germany would look much different than from what it looks now.

In 1990 it was the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France which decided that all war reparations were payed off. Without having asked all the smaller countries, which were practically overlooked and forced to agree. (Of course Germany would have been really stupid to object at this point...)

The question now is how to solve this problem in a human and realistic way without creating too much conflict. I have no proof for it as I haven't done any research yet, but my feeling is that if someone profited from WWII spoils it were some of the German banks and companies, which I guess received some of these spoils and kept it as secrets. Moreover, they still have a better relationship with their Nazi-predecessors than most of the politicians in today's government. Now with debts from Greece, this would be a perfect opportunity for those banks to pay off their debts by remitting Greek debts.
The only thing I feel ashamed of my government is that it denies these facts and tries to protect those banks, which gives Germany a really bad reputation all over the world. But it seems that diplomacy has never been our strength...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 17:06
well later news show Barozzo and the greek major opponent to have changed few nice words,
like fu etc

LeBrok
26-06-11, 04:00
Mzungu has good points. Germany was defeated, all the major cities and industrial centers in ruins. The winners took all the previous German war spoils too. On top of it they already paid many war reparations to winner and victims.
Now after 66 years Germany are rich and successful. What!!!??? What the hell happened!!!???


I love history and I watched many documentaries from WW2. Do you know what surprised me the most?
Camera showers American vehicles going through German city streets, just in the middle lane, because the rest of the street is filled with ruins of houses, big mountains of rubble. On these mountains of rubble you can see German civilians working. The war is over or almost over but they are already hard working rebuilding their homes. This was really amazing and showers you the character of a nation.
This was a German spirit back then, building and rebuilding. This is still the same spirit now building, investing and even helping rest of Europe, and in Mzungu example even the Africa. Amazingly they, they just did it under American occupation! Do you think it was easy?!
Germans showed that they work hard. Germans showed that they know how to invest, run very successful businesses, how to have stable political system. How to use the economic and industrial power to the maximum. It's commending and it's uplifting. The rest of us should sit back, look and learn how it's done!
Stop wining, complaining, blaming. For god sake finally learn something!

For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!

If Germans could pull it off under American occupation, surely free, democratic and experienced with long traditions Greece can do it too.

Here is an option two:
Attack America, Americans will come invade Greece. Next day you surrender. Now under American control you should be able to accomplish what Germans did. Maybe it's an easy way. You think it's a fluke? Look at Japan, they are under American occupation too and they are most successful country in a world too, right?

Off course I don't subscribe to this conclusion. Germany and Japan were the most vibrant countries in their regions for centuries. It shows that they can work it out under any circumstances. They are just united and hard working nations. They are not selfish and they pay taxes, they work together for a good of whole nation. They have great elite, good politicians, smart hard working people. They produce, they have strong industries, they know how things work.

I don't excuse them from all the crimes they did in the past, but I don't blame them for their success. I don't blame them for my and other countries shortcomings. I don't blame them just to wash my hands off for my debts that I can't pay, and for crises in my country. Maybe because I never pick the easy way out.
I want my country to be strong too. I will first blame myself for not knowing better, for not working harder, for not understanding how the world works.

Blaming Germany or USA, or anyone successful for shortcomings of their own country is ridicules!!!

LeBrok
26-06-11, 04:21
By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons.

The interest goes up with risk taking. Whoever lends money to Germany they know they will get pay. It's easy money therefore low interest. Many banks would love to lend money to Germany. Germany have choices where to borrow money if they need to.
On the other end we have Greece in a very shaky economic situation. If someone is brave enough to lend money to Greece, will charge higher interest rate. It's a very high risk investment. Greece can go bankrupt any time.
Actually I'm surprised that someone will still give Greece a lone, because I wouldn't! Would you????!!! Be honest.
The only reason Greece gets any money right now is not because everybody likes Greeks. It's because rest of world is afraid that if Greece defaults on it's debt, it might unleash a domino effect in banking system and pull the world in a new economic instability as in 2008.

5% plus is a steal! Antigone, would you lend your own money to Greek government at even 20% a year knowing all the situation in Greece?! :shocked: You are surprised the foreign banks want 5%+. They must be crazy!!!
No wonder banking system is in trouble, lol.

Antigone
26-06-11, 06:57
Lebrok, with the wrong end of the stick again. I haven't expressed surprise nor dismay at anything, I was asking MM to clarify a paragraph, which he has since done and quite brilliantly.


.For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!!!!

I hope you can take some of your own advice.

Antigone
26-06-11, 07:13
No, with 'them' I meant our grand-parents who took the spoils from Greece in WWII. Now, 66 years later, they are either dead or nearly as.
Most young Germans feel confused when all of a sudden now they are told that all the wealth they have is the result of spoils their grand-parents had taken from other countries and have to pay back, now. Most Germans have never set a foot on Greece, and studied and worked just like any other European people. Of course if every country would claim it's spoils and damages back -and imagine charges aswell- Germany would look much different than from what it looks now.

In 1990 it was the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France which decided that all war reparations were payed off. Without having asked all the smaller countries, which were practically overlooked and forced to agree. (Of course Germany would have been really stupid to object at this point...)

The question now is how to solve this problem in a human and realistic way without creating too much conflict. I have no proof for it as I haven't done any research yet, but my feeling is that if someone profited from WWII spoils it were some of the German banks and companies, which I guess received some of these spoils and kept it as secrets. Moreover, they still have a better relationship with their Nazi-predecessors than most of the politicians in today's government. Now with debts from Greece, this would be a perfect opportunity for those banks to pay off their debts by remitting Greek debts.
The only thing I feel ashamed of my government is that it denies these facts and tries to protect those banks, which gives Germany a really bad reputation all over the world. But it seems that diplomacy has never been our strength...

Thanks for the explanation MM, and I largely agree with you. IMO Germany has paid its debt, but, unfortunately, people have long memories and it will be a long time yet before the rotten eggs stop landing your way.

Although, if anyone has profited from the war I would have thought it was the Swiss, not the Germans.

LeBrok
26-06-11, 07:18
Some? I live by my logic. My words are my actions and my actions are my voice. Unfortunately it is hard to prove this blogging online. :)
For most of people words and looks are the essence and the excitement, but nothing gets done. That's a reason behind substantial mess in our world.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 10:52
Thanks for the explanation MM, and I largely agree with you. IMO Germany has paid its debt, but, unfortunately, people have long memories and it will be a long time yet before the rotten eggs stop landing your way.

Although, if anyone has profited from the war I would have thought it was the Swiss, not the Germans.

General Patton
he found the loot from Jews that some special forces did
it is said about 1 truck with golden teeth
3 days trucks cary the gold to US

and to mzungu, you have a big right here, many modern germans are descent people,

iapetoc
27-06-11, 16:35
Mzungu has good points. Germany was defeated, all the major cities and industrial centers in ruins. The winners took all the previous German war spoils too. On top of it they already paid many war reparations to winner and victims.
Now after 66 years Germany are rich and successful. What!!!??? What the hell happened!!!???


I love history and I watched many documentaries from WW2. Do you know what surprised me the most?
Camera showers American vehicles going through German city streets, just in the middle lane, because the rest of the street is filled with ruins of houses, big mountains of rubble. On these mountains of rubble you can see German civilians working. The war is over or almost over but they are already hard working rebuilding their homes. This was really amazing and showers you the character of a nation.
This was a German spirit back then, building and rebuilding. This is still the same spirit now building, investing and even helping rest of Europe, and in Mzungu example even the Africa. Amazingly they, they just did it under American occupation! Do you think it was easy?!
Germans showed that they work hard. Germans showed that they know how to invest, run very successful businesses, how to have stable political system. How to use the economic and industrial power to the maximum. It's commending and it's uplifting. The rest of us should sit back, look and learn how it's done!
Stop wining, complaining, blaming. For god sake finally learn something!

For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!

If Germans could pull it off under American occupation, surely free, democratic and experienced with long traditions Greece can do it too.

Here is an option two:
Attack America, Americans will come invade Greece. Next day you surrender. Now under American control you should be able to accomplish what Germans did. Maybe it's an easy way. You think it's a fluke? Look at Japan, they are under American occupation too and they are most successful country in a world too, right?

Off course I don't subscribe to this conclusion. Germany and Japan were the most vibrant countries in their regions for centuries. It shows that they can work it out under any circumstances. They are just united and hard working nations. They are not selfish and they pay taxes, they work together for a good of whole nation. They have great elite, good politicians, smart hard working people. They produce, they have strong industries, they know how things work.

I don't excuse them from all the crimes they did in the past, but I don't blame them for their success. I don't blame them for my and other countries shortcomings. I don't blame them just to wash my hands off for my debts that I can't pay, and for crises in my country. Maybe because I never pick the easy way out.
I want my country to be strong too. I will first blame myself for not knowing better, for not working harder, for not understanding how the world works.

Blaming Germany or USA, or anyone successful for shortcomings of their own country is ridicules!!!


correct indeed
your theory is like vauxhall and Opel
Vauxhall drop money in poor germany created Opel and Opel Buy Vauxhall!!!!!!

and today both belong to GMC??????
just asking

I really wonder what happened to the famous old woman of Johanna Quandt
and the free Rolls Royce engines that USA sent so the Messerschmitt can fly cause they could not take off by the Quanndt engines
search the truth behind and after time
just who is today Quandt partener?
who was harald quandt?

Reinaert
27-06-11, 19:14
Hmm ... Rolls Royce motors were British.
But The USA traded with both the USSR and Nazi Germany before they (USA) became involved in WWII.
In the same time they did business with the UK.
During the time UK was at war with Germany, hostilities were on the sea by German U boats attacking convoys, and in the air in the Battle for Britain. Only a few people know that a lot of Dutch and also Greek ships were hired by the Americans to get supplies to the UK and the Soviet Union.
And it's a fact that a lot of merchant ships were lost, and the USA, or anybody ever payed for it.
No cure, no pay! It's that simple capitalist rule.

That makes me laugh as a Dutchman when Americans boast about the "Marshall Plan".

iapetoc
27-06-11, 19:54
Hmm ... Rolls Royce motors were British.
But The USA traded with both the USSR and Nazi Germany before they (USA) became involved in WWII.
In the same time they did business with the UK.
During the time UK was at war with Germany, hostilities were on the sea by German U boats attacking convoys, and in the air in the Battle for Britain. Only a few people know that a lot of Dutch and also Greek ships were hired by the Americans to get supplies to the UK and the Soviet Union.
And it's a fact that a lot of merchant ships were lost, and the USA, or anybody ever payed for it.
No cure, no pay! It's that simple capitalist rule.

That makes me laugh as a Dutchman when Americans boast about the "Marshall Plan".


yes the Marshall plan,
and the UNdra plan

150 000 Greek from age 18-27 should go to work in Germany to rebuild the German industry as was before,
All healthy examined by Greek and German docteurs
the Opel factory had 20% young Greeks

but they pay for the losses
example
they create a warm day with turks,
they gave 12 ships from WW2and they were ok

1 of them Ikaria ( iknow cause i slept in it when serve my military obligations)
the first half fought in Anzio Italy, sunk
the back half fought in D day Normandy
they cut the 2 ships, they united them and gave it to greek Navy,
Like the Βελος
Velos was the ship were the Philadelphia test was done

in 1974 when the cyprus case was on all the american help like tanks could not move,
I was a child and i remember the tanks in the fields unaible to move cause all were old,
given in 1968 ae repay for korean help

Greek civil war unknown number of Gold pounds were droped by english to mountains to support the communist party!!!!!!!
4000 war shoes and 1000 guns with ammunition were given to the rebels that later started the civil war
Germans after thousands of execution of innocent when they left they made an agreement with rebels,
no german soldier die, but german war ammunition guns etc will be given to them
in Greek civil war 20% of Hellas had German guns given to them so not to fight the Nazi army

Anton, Bear's den
27-06-11, 21:39
I think that's retarded idea to ask reparations from Germany just because Greeks can not pay their debts today, time to turn the page of WWII finally, people.

Carlitos
27-06-11, 23:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34GNAEsClVI&NR=1

The Marshall Plan in Spain.

iapetoc
28-06-11, 00:31
I think that's retarded idea to ask reparations from Germany just because Greeks can not pay their debts today, time to turn the page of WWII finally, people.

these repetation start from before 60s

iapetoc
28-06-11, 01:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34GNAEsClVI&NR=1

The Marshall Plan in Spain.

compare it the bellow movie and tv show

minute 5:42


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-bEra1NJ0&feature=related


the marshall plan results
minute 0:13


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7CFfJePwuk&feature=related

in 2009 father and son meet.

Carlitos
28-06-11, 01:15
Yes, but they still know that nothing is forever.

The Marshall Plan in Spain did not leave that has already seen the movie Welcome Mr. Marshall passed away. hehe

iapetoc
28-06-11, 01:23
Yes, but they still know that nothing is forever.

The Marshall Plan in Spain did not leave that has already seen the movie Welcome Mr. Marshall passed away. hehe


the Greek name is welcome the Dollar.

Elias2
28-06-11, 02:51
I think that's retarded idea to ask reparations from Germany just because Greeks can not pay their debts today, time to turn the page of WWII finally, people.

I don't think the point of this is to bring up WW2, but just to bring up the point of how european peoples treated Germany when they had masive debt to how the german government is now treating another with the same problem they had.

iapetoc
28-06-11, 08:54
27 june 2011

source DER Spiegel

117 million E were given as gift to Greek politician by Ferrostaal
so to buy 4 submarines at a cost of 1.6 billion E

the submarines were classified as thrash by Greek officers cause they 'bound' above water, and are not well drive in medium and slow speeds,
Greek navy never delivered them due to their problems,
Yet politicians manage to sign part of agreement by taking 117 Million E !!!!

Anton, Bear's den
28-06-11, 20:38
27 june 2011

source DER Spiegel

117 million E were given as gift to Greek politician by Ferrostaal
so to buy 4 submarines at a cost of 1.6 billion E

the submarines were classified as thrash by Greek officers cause they 'bound' above water, and are not well drive in medium and slow speeds,
Greek navy never delivered them due to their problems,
Yet politicians manage to sign part of agreement by taking 117 Million E !!!!

But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.

iapetoc
28-06-11, 21:00
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP on the armed forces. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age)
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.


correct and that is the problem

when Greece 160 000 army and 1 of the most modern according size, like in 70 -80,
the debt was not even 1/3 and no economical crisis,
since Greece stop and drop to 60 000 army, problems start,

Are trying to find logic in Greek crisis?

just compare the case or russian-East German Tanks and Multi-Rocket, 30% was bought by Greeks
from that 1/2 was free according the agreement and the other 1/2 was x3 times the przes that other buy,
that is the problem with Greece,
I will not name minister,
just imagiane that today minister of economy is the one who make the law so politicians not to go in judge as long are elected, and after 5 years all done (quilty or not) must checked only by politicians,

That means that a quilty politician must be judged first by other politician and then by judges!!!!!!!! and if we find any scandal after 5 years, wow he is innocent man,

the problem of Greece, the real one, is the parties, the second is the spend,
Special olympics case yesterday,
only begin ceremony cost 10 000 000 E while the one before cost 2 300 000,

7 700 000 E more than the last one, while the result was the same.
why?
cause all that 7 700 000 went to party members and half back to party, the same tactic

the time that country is in Debt they spend 40 000 000 than the last Special and 35 000 000 than the donators give,
why?
that is the problem of Greece,
an economic shearch gave 10% of greeks to have money as the depth in foreign countries,
and since you maybe do not know just search how much money, greek money are in Abhaz
and jow much in ucraine
1/3 of politians since 1991 have !!!!!!! 120 000 000 000 E in Eu banks!!!!!
and they tax me, my few m2 house and field?

to understand the case remember about the Abramovic vs Putin

in dt time they make the immigrants Greeks to vote them if they are party members just to vote them,
before 1990 and especially at 50-60-70s the elections had 70-85% of the total written to vote,
today they have 50-55% the most,
they make goverment with 25% of greek people,


now to return to subject
crisis is IMF worker earned 26 000 000 000 E in 1 night, ty,

Canek
28-06-11, 23:04
Spain owes an apology to all latin america, ecuatorial guinea and phillipines for the crimes they commited... but they have never say a word of course.

LeBrok
29-06-11, 05:36
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.

Good points. The whole situation doesn't surprise all the world. It only surprises Greeks in Greece,...for some unexplained reason, lol.

Antigone
29-06-11, 06:34
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.

Don't be fooled by the siesta Anton. The times vary and depend where in Greece you are and what you do but winter trading hours in my area are, 8.30am - 2pm then again in the evening from 5.30pm till 9 or 10pm, 6 days a week. Summer trading hours are 8.30am- 2pm and again from 5.30pm -1 or 2am, 7 days a week. The hours worked are actually longer than many other countries and the siesta is needed, I've done it and it is impossible to work those hours without the afternoon break.

It is only the public service sector or the government departments who work from 8.30am - 1.30pm, then they are finished for the day! The rest of your assessment on Greece is fairly accurate though.

barbarian
29-06-11, 08:46
Don't be fooled by the siesta Anton. The times vary and depend where in Greece you are and what you do but winter trading hours in my area are, 8.30am - 2pm then again in the evening from 5.30pm till 9 or 10pm, 6 days a week. Summer trading hours are 8.30am- 2pm and again from 5.30pm -1 or 2am, 7 days a week. The hours worked are actually longer than many other countries and the siesta is needed, I've done it and it is impossible to work those hours without the afternoon break.

It is only the public service sector or the government departments who work from 8.30am - 1.30pm, then they are finished for the day! The rest of your assessment on Greece is fairly accurate though.
what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?

iapetoc
29-06-11, 09:44
But existed also kinda mini Greek-Turkish cold war before the crisis, is not it? As I know Greece spent pretty big percentage of GDP (4.3%) on the armed forces, majority of European countries spent only around 1%. Greece provides around 200 thousands army size with 11 million population, for comparison Germany have around 180-200 thousands military size with 80 million population or Canada which have 60 thousands military size with 34 million population.
Greeks had low threshold of retirement (in some cases already from 53 years of age) combined with high lifetime among population.
In Greece, the siesta is widespread, from 1pm to 5.30pm time of the rest.
+ Add the massive tax evasion & large social costs of government before the crisis = nothing surprising in today's financial problems really.



what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?


well to be honest that measures are the ones that all accepted,

No body has denied to them,
that was memorantum 1
today is the memorantum 2
another story, Greece accepted measures for memorantum1

now about work,
super markets big stores,
from 9 to 6 or 9 to 9,
smaller shops family corp,
thessaloniki (each area has its own rules) winter,
9-2:30, 5:30-9:00
food shops, from 05:00 to 3:00 (morning food) or 13:00-02:00 eveming food. 24 h the big chains

public services, depends on service,
banks start at 7:30 end at 15:30-16:00 open time 8-14:00 for public

the problem is not services but syndicate masters and party members,
for example electricity,
at 500 people are syndicate masters, with half work,
200 workers are payed just to make party advertisement
that is a problem,

THE MAIN PROBLEM OF GREECE IS NOT THE PUBLIC SERVICES PPEOPLE ARE PUSHED THERE DUE TO UNEMPLOYMENT
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS DE-INDUSTRLIAZATION THAT STARTED AFTER 1978,

to understand the issue compare the industry of ex-East block in 1970 production, and at late 80's
was the industrial production of Russia same?
How many Russians went else for 'better life'?

IMMIGRANTS ARE BORN FROM 3 REASONS

1) Despaired people
2) fortune hunters and criminals
3) tv show cinema of a promising paradise, (american dream theory)


there was an article in Le mond, greeks work more than germans and have only 25 days holidays,

Antigone
29-06-11, 13:19
what about the goverment and private banks? and customs offices?

All government offices, local council, tax, welfare or whatever work from 8.30am until they close at 1.30pm. Government employees are not exactly overworked are they? As airplanes and ships arrive 24hrs a day so customs are working in shifts for all of that time and bank hours are as iapetoc states above.

barbarian
29-06-11, 20:06
w.
THE MAIN PROBLEM OF GREECE IS NOT THE PUBLIC SERVICES PPEOPLE ARE PUSHED THERE DUE TO UNEMPLOYMENT
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS DE-INDUSTRLIAZATION THAT STARTED AFTER 1978,

i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.

iapetoc
29-06-11, 22:13
i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.


the case of hate is wnother story,
the case of grey zones story, the case of 12 miles another story, and the case of oil also another,
we both know that the case is ok peace but be ready for war,
the case of 1974 cyprus and 1998 Imia-karntak is a clear case of seek and hiding,

if you know well the history of Turkish economy then let me remind the Esso, Pirelli and another one corporation at 1970-1980,
from where they left to go to turkey?

the problem is not the turks or the greeks,
the problem is that our leaders drem to be Alexanders or Mohamet ,
in gact if tommorrow Greece say no to a USA command, the next day 80 turkish airplanes will fly above Aegian,
if USA say no do that to Turks, and they did not the next day Greek Navy will reach attalleia or Imbros island.

barbarian
30-06-11, 07:08
the case of hate is wnother story,
the case of grey zones story, the case of 12 miles another story, and the case of oil also another,
we both know that the case is ok peace but be ready for war,
the case of 1974 cyprus and 1998 Imia-karntak is a clear case of seek and hiding,

if you know well the history of Turkish economy then let me remind the Esso, Pirelli and another one corporation at 1970-1980,
from where they left to go to turkey?

the problem is not the turks or the greeks,
the problem is that our leaders drem to be Alexanders or Mohamet ,
in gact if tommorrow Greece say no to a USA command, the next day 80 turkish airplanes will fly above Aegian,
if USA say no do that to Turks, and they did not the next day Greek Navy will reach attalleia or Imbros island.
if we go on like this. we will still be underdeveloped countries in the last day of the earth. and we will give our hardly earned money to arm brokers for a stupid island, like kardak, where nobody lives.

iapetoc
30-06-11, 07:25
if we go on like this. we will still be underdeveloped countries in the last day of the earth. and we will give our hardly earned money to arm brokers for a stupid island, like kardak, where nobody lives.


it is their way to control us,

Carlitos
30-06-11, 23:13
I think France and Germany did not take into account the possibility that in future any member country may have problems in the United States that is intended for any of its states. Greece has religiously paid its taxes in Europe, I believe that Greece had eight years of recession, this could have been avoided if France and Germany had been sighted, either that or they really cease to be the bossy Europe and truly create a rather it is the EU

Elias2
01-07-11, 04:12
i am not sure about that. after the rise of china and india industrialized countries also in big trouble because of the increasing emtia prices and incompetitive rate of chinese products. these days only the countries having abundant natural source are comfortable like russia, norway etc.

if greeces main income is service, it is a big advantage for the country. it means that with the growing economy in the world your income will increase. and you are away from the competition of china.

however, if you dont have industry, it means that you have an unemployment problem. US has similar problem, however it is not a big problem for them since they can print brand new dollars.

greece cannot print euro, so they must increase their income in the long run, and decrease their expenditure in the short term. you cannot touch the companies in the capitalist system, so the workers will pay the bill.

i believe both greece must cut their military and public spendings, and understand that turkey is not their enemy (turkey only hate greece, just like greece hates turkey). and focus on energy investment, efficient agriculture.

Hmm China has two things going for them, low paid labour and cheap oil. Only Hong Kong has a minimum wage, the rest of china doesn't, so the corporations can pay them what they like. Once the chinese start demanding better wages, or more rights, then china is in trouble. China is a "slave" economy, people like to put their factories there for the cheap labour.

The other thing is the -relatively- cheap oil. We can still have world wide trade becuase we can transport cheaply around the world. In the next 20 years oil will either be gone or so expensive it isn't viable anymore, so the cost of transporting chinese goods to the richer countries will be too expensive and china is in trouble. Unless a viable substitue comes along and then its business as usual.

I think Greece should go back to the drachma and start developing its industrial capital, it needs to diversify. With a cheap drachma, greece will attract more tourists, the industrial sector will instantly be competative, and costs of living will lower. In other words, I don't think this EU project is worth it for greece. Germany wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Antigone
01-07-11, 06:27
Yes, not only does China and India supply slave labour but out-sourced western companies can also avoid the enviromental and pollution laws in their own. In out-sourcing our industries to Asia the west has created a rod for it's own back and, of course, the consumer is also part of the problem. We want everything, we want it cheap and we want it now and all without a thought that someone is slaving to supply it.

I agree re the drachma but I don't think it will happen. Greece is too paranoid over Turkey to leave the protection of the EU, and Germany et al use that paranoia to keep Greece in line and make a lot of money selling weapons whilst they are at it.

iapetoc
01-07-11, 06:50
Hmm China has two things going for them, low paid labour and cheap oil. Only Hong Kong has a minimum wage, the rest of china doesn't, so the corporations can pay them what they like. Once the chinese start demanding better wages, or more rights, then china is in trouble. China is a "slave" economy, people like to put their factories there for the cheap labour.

The other thing is the -relatively- cheap oil. We can still have world wide trade becuase we can transport cheaply around the world. In the next 20 years oil will either be gone or so expensive it isn't viable anymore, so the cost of transporting chinese goods to the richer countries will be too expensive and china is in trouble. Unless a viable substitue comes along and then its business as usual.

I think Greece should go back to the drachma and start developing its industrial capital, it needs to diversify. With a cheap drachma, greece will attract more tourists, the industrial sector will instantly be competative, and costs of living will lower. In other words, I don't think this EU project is worth it for greece. Germany wants to have its cake and eat it too.



Yes, not only does China and India supply slave labour but out-sourced western companies can also avoid the enviromental and pollution laws in their own. In out-sourcing our industries to Asia the west has created a rod for it's own back and, of course, the consumer is also part of the problem. We want everything, we want it cheap and we want it now and all without a thought that someone is slaving to supply it.

I agree re the drachma but I don't think it will happen. Greece is too paranoid over Turkey to leave the protection of the EU, and Germany et al use that paranoia to keep Greece in line and make a lot of money selling weapons whilst they are at it.


you are both correct, a return to drachmas will send back Greece 2-5 years,
but a memorandum 3 will last 40 years,

a return to drachma will make Greek products more cheaper so easy to go to market,
that means Germany will lose the extra money from package greek juice, which will stay in greece, etc,


with Drachma Greece had the 3-5 biggest merchant navy in the world,
was 2nd in peach production in the world,
was 1rst in Europe in white sugar production
etc etc

LeBrok
01-07-11, 08:15
[QUOTE=Elias2;374258]
The other thing is the -relatively- cheap oil. We can still have world wide trade becuase we can transport cheaply around the world. In the next 20 years oil will either be gone or so expensive it isn't viable anymore, so the cost of transporting chinese goods to the richer countries will be too expensive and china is in trouble. Unless a viable substitue comes along and then its business as usual.

QUOTE]

I wouldn't count on it even if oil doubles or triples.
The biggest Maersk ship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_M%C3%A6rsk
can carry 150 000 tons of goods from china to wherever around the world in 20 days.
It burns 6,300 litter of oil an hour, that's 2,520,000 liter per trip. It is a cheap heavy oil, probably 50 cents a liter, bought in volume. Let's say oil went up to 1.00 for easier calculations. 2.5 million dollars divided by 150,000,000 kilograms of cargo, that's almost 1.7 cent per kilogram. Crew is only 17 people, but maintenance and repairs probably runs in couple of millions a month, plus some profit, and we can arrive at 5 cents per kilogram. Some road and rail trip to destination, loading and unloading can bring the price to 10 cents a kilogram, but the fuel cost is closer to 4 cents. In 20 years fuel will double again or triple, but engines efficiency and ships size will keep the transportation cost constant.
When you go to wal-mart and you buy a plastic chair from China for 10 bucks, and it weighs a kilogram, the transportation fuel cost is only 4 cents. How much more you'll pay for this chair if fuel will go up 10 fold? The whole 10.36! The fuel cost is insignificant, well almost.

What is going to level the playing field is automatization and robotics. In close future work in factories will be done mostly by robots and machines. Labor cost therefore production cost will be the same regardless where the factory is located.
Greece will finely produce plastic chairs at home. This is what iapetoc wants :grin:

iapetoc
01-07-11, 08:39
I wouldn't count on it even if oil doubles or triples.
The biggest Maersk ship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_M%C3%A6rsk
can carry 150 000 tons of goods from china to wherever around the world in 20 days.
It burns 6,300 litter of oil an hour, that's 2,520,000 liter per trip. It is a cheap heavy oil, probably 50 cents a liter, bought in volume. Let's say oil went up to 1.00 for easier calculations. 2.5 million dollars divided by 150,000,000 kilograms of cargo, that's almost 1.7 cent per kilogram. Crew is only 17 people, but maintenance and repairs probably runs in couple of millions a month, plus some profit, and we can arrive at 5 cents per kilogram. Some road and rail trip to destination, loading and unloading can bring the price to 10 cents a kilogram, but the fuel cost is closer to 4 cents. In 20 years fuel will double again or triple, but engines efficiency and ships size will keep the transportation cost constant.
When you go to wal-mart and you buy a plastic chair from China for 10 bucks, and it weighs a kilogram, the transportation fuel cost is only 4 cents. How much more you'll pay for this chair if fuel will go up 10 fold? The whole 10.36! The fuel cost is insignificant, well almost.

What is going to level the playing field is automatization and robotics. In close future work in factories will be done mostly by robots and machines. Labor cost therefore production cost will be the same regardless where the factory is located.
Greece will finely produce plastic chairs at home. This is what iapetoc wants :grin:




that is the point,

we put 25-35% production taxes in Europe, and we leave china to rule,
just think that 10 bucks had and an extra tax 12.5 E then diffrence is not that big,

that is Greece problem
Lamaplast the biggest company in North greece in plastic chairs,
became import from china, and move central factory in romania were for at least starting years tax is 0% and max 5-9% instead of 25-35% . :sad-2:


Besides smart quy such ships need a 6 and bigger lvl harbor to load and take off,

how many 6th and bigger lvl harbors you know in europe?????

hmmmm only 2 or 3, that means from china to netherlands only hmmmmmm
lets put the extra cost from netherlands to Greece, hmmmmmmmmmm

Elias2
01-07-11, 13:31
I agree re the drachma but I don't think it will happen. Greece is too paranoid over Turkey to leave the protection of the EU, and Germany et al use that paranoia to keep Greece in line and make a lot of money selling weapons whilst they are at it.

I don't think an EU army is out of the question sometime in the future, maybe then Greece can stop being paranoid. In North America, we have had NORAD for the longest time now, Europe needs to keep up with the times, then again I think Germany is a `lame-duck`leader.

Elias2
01-07-11, 13:39
[QUOTE=Elias2;374258]
The other thing is the -relatively- cheap oil. We can still have world wide trade becuase we can transport cheaply around the world. In the next 20 years oil will either be gone or so expensive it isn't viable anymore, so the cost of transporting chinese goods to the richer countries will be too expensive and china is in trouble. Unless a viable substitue comes along and then its business as usual.

QUOTE]

I wouldn't count on it even if oil doubles or triples.
The biggest Maersk ship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_M%C3%A6rsk
can carry 150 000 tons of goods from china to wherever around the world in 20 days.
It burns 6,300 litter of oil an hour, that's 2,520,000 liter per trip. It is a cheap heavy oil, probably 50 cents a liter, bought in volume. Let's say oil went up to 1.00 for easier calculations. 2.5 million dollars divided by 150,000,000 kilograms of cargo, that's almost 1.7 cent per kilogram. Crew is only 17 people, but maintenance and repairs probably runs in couple of millions a month, plus some profit, and we can arrive at 5 cents per kilogram. Some road and rail trip to destination, loading and unloading can bring the price to 10 cents a kilogram, but the fuel cost is closer to 4 cents. In 20 years fuel will double again or triple, but engines efficiency and ships size will keep the transportation cost constant.
When you go to wal-mart and you buy a plastic chair from China for 10 bucks, and it weighs a kilogram, the transportation fuel cost is only 4 cents. How much more you'll pay for this chair if fuel will go up 10 fold? The whole 10.36! The fuel cost is insignificant, well almost.

What is going to level the playing field is automatization and robotics. In close future work in factories will be done mostly by robots and machines. Labor cost therefore production cost will be the same regardless where the factory is located.
Greece will finely produce plastic chairs at home. This is what iapetoc wants :grin:

There are other more sinister forces that can make oil raise to unsustainable levels. We need to move away from oil completly not skip around it, if not for our sake then our children or grandchildren who will indeed have to deal with these issues.

As for us Leborke, who live in Canada, Obama made a speach a while ago in which he said he wanted to cut America`s dependence on foreign oil in the next 20 years, which means he will need albertas oil sand more than ever. If it comes to a point where its a national security issue for USA you can garauntee there will be a referendum for a NAU. It won't be a coincidence.

Antigone
11-07-11, 06:48
Media misrepresentation, at least one media outlet recognises there is a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwCMDaahrUA

iapetoc
16-07-11, 11:51
Late news Give Den Haag Judges to adopt the Greek Demand,
waiting for more,

Antigone
16-08-11, 06:39
Upmarket tourism as a solution for the Greek economy? Why not, if it gets rid of the drunks hanging out of bars and on the streets every summer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/fast_track/9539686.stm

bicicleur
31-01-14, 18:32
Perhaps one of the greatest sins of today is how short the collective memory. While Greece is pressed in a long agony seems endless and the Eurozone conditions for the country to support their extreme austerity measures are made to believe that the situation is the worst experience helena who has lived in Europe's history. And nothing could be further from reality.

The economic historian Albrecht Ritschl, a professor at the London School of Economics, believes that Germany is ignoring most of its history and what led to what it is today. In an interview with Der Spiegel and in this article for The Guardian, Ritschl points out that Germany was even more indebted to Greece in the last century and Germany invites the country to be more understandable to the crisis in the euro if it is to meet new demands remissions of 50% was applied in the Second World War in the payment of war reparations. Remember that Germany paid off the First World War, only in October 2010.


In the interview with Der Spiegel, which also collected Business Insider, Ritschl points out that the German government's attitude is unreasonable, since the failure to make payments that Germany starred in the twentieth century, with the first World War and the Second after World War has been one of the largest in history.

Costs of War
After the First World War, the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 demanded that Germany pay reparations or compensation to the winners. There were thousands of millions of gold marks, a huge amount that the country tried to take up that suspended payments during World War II by order of the Nazi regime of Adolph Hitler.

From 1924 to 1929, the Weimar Republic and even lived in the United States borrowed the money needed to pay war reparations. This credit bubble collapsed during the economic crisis of the 30 that dropped the gold standard not only existing but also the democracy of Weimar. The money disappeared, the damage to the United States was enormous "and the consequences for the world economy was devastating," says Ritschl, who is surprised at the brevity of the Germanic collective memory.

After the Second World War the situation was almost similar. And, to avoid the mistakes of the past, the U.S., then accepted the possibility of debt relief from Germany. Thus in the Treaty of London of 1953 was reduced by half the German debt and established that the payment of interest on foreign loans shall be suspended until the reunification of Germany, which occurred on October 3, 1990. "It was a gesture that saved his life," says Ritschl, and pemitió enable their economic miracle, he says. However, since 1990, the Germans have consistently refused to address the outstanding debt with several nations. As Ritschl says "have refused to open that can of worms."

The German non-payment was "the king of the default"
In fact, it was not until last October 2010 that Germany could terminate the share of payments of the First World War to make the last payment of that debt, 92 years after the war. For Albrecht Ritschl, the German default after the First World War "has been" the king of kings "of defaults, while Greece falls short of him." Ritschl believes that if the U.S. and other countries (including Greece) have not accepted the possibility of a remission in Germany, the Germany of today not be the same we know.

The historian notes that "no one in Greece has forgotten that Germany owes its prosperity to the consideration of other nations." Thus, in his opinion the only correct solution for Greece is to allow its default. The most reassuring, he believes, is that Greece is very small compared to Europe, so they accept a remission of their debt would not be a serious problem, unless it could be a possibility of infection.

"I have advocated for a long time away and not for a second rescue plan for Greece, for the same reason." Even with the optimism of the IMF, "the possibility that Greece can pay your debt is almost impossible." The country has two options: implement further cuts in exchange for more bailout money, or make default. In his view, the first option increases the chance that Greece will be able to pay, but the Greeks will be a disaster in their standard of living is concerned. So, for the Greeks, the default seems to be the best option.

It is time that the Germans remember the promises made in 1990 when he announced that Europe would compensate in other ways. The only country at that time refused and Germany openly defied demanding compensation in the courts was Greece. Now is the time that Germany must fulfill the promise.
http://www.elblogsalmon.com/entorno/historiador-llama-a-alemania-a-no-olvidar-que-tiene-una-gran-deuda-con-grecia

sorry, this is utter bullshit
this is looking for an excuse
wwII has nothing to do with Greek bankrupcy
nothing but Greek policiticians are to blame for this
I suppose these politicians were smart enough to realize they were spending more than Greek economy could support
but spending money makes them popular and getting re-elected
and they didn't have to worry, I've never heard of a politician getting punished for destroying his own country
it's the citizens taht get punished

Aberdeen
31-01-14, 19:30
I don't think an EU army is out of the question sometime in the future, maybe then Greece can stop being paranoid. In North America, we have had NORAD for the longest time now, Europe needs to keep up with the times, then again I think Germany is a `lame-duck`leader.

Actually, NATO already has an army of sorts (ISAF). The problem is that each country gets to define the mandate of any troops it commits to ISAF and it's unclear whether European countries would commit their army to any serious military action, even if there was a real emergency. And I doubt any European governments would be willing to support the creation of an European army under the command of NATO or EU officials. So the Greeks are right to be paranoid about Turkey - Greece wasn't prepared to deal with what the Turks did in Cyprus and the rest of Europe didn't want to get involved, so there's a permanent problem in Cyprus. That's probably why Greeks aren't willing to cut their military too much, no matter what their financial problems. But I think the austerity assault on the Greek economy by the IMF and the World Bank was probably a test run to see whether it's possible to get citizens to accept widespread poverty. So far, the Greek experiment seems to be working out well for the billionaires and their servants.

Aberdeen
31-01-14, 19:33
[QUOTE=LeBrok;374267]

There are other more sinister forces that can make oil raise to unsustainable levels. We need to move away from oil completly not skip around it, if not for our sake then our children or grandchildren who will indeed have to deal with these issues.

As for us Leborke, who live in Canada, Obama made a speach a while ago in which he said he wanted to cut America`s dependence on foreign oil in the next 20 years, which means he will need albertas oil sand more than ever. If it comes to a point where its a national security issue for USA you can garauntee there will be a referendum for a NAU. It won't be a coincidence.

Canada need to step away from the poisonous tar sands and also step away from the FTA, if that's possible, since the Americans seem to be determined to destroy themselves with misgovernment and bad economic policies. If we can't separate ourselves sufficiently from the dying elephant, we'll end up as badly off economically, politically and socially as the Americans.

Aberdeen
31-01-14, 19:38
Here! Here! I say England owes the United States tremendous reparations for razing our White House during The War of 1812. That will be $4,000,000 please, payable in pounds of silver.

Listen here's the situation. The global economy is a complete and utter sh-- storm. There is no recovery, at least not for the vast majority of folks.

The boys in Davos have been gleefully rubbing their necks for the last few years, grateful everything's attached and accounted for and that there wasn't a replay of the French Revolution (obviously elites didn't fair too well during that time). Soon their greed will override their fear and the full bore fleecing of the remaining Middle Class will begin (we see this here with ObamaCare). War will begin, fortunes will be made, the rich get richer...

Nothing changes. Everything stays the same. Welcome to the wonderful world of neo-feudalism. Grab a shovel, keep your head down, and keep digging.


I have an invoice here for reparations for the American burning of Toronto during the War of 1812. When will you Americans be able to pay? Toronto need the money to pay for a subway expansion.

I agree with most of the rest of your comments. However, I think your Obamacare may have been a real attempt by a moderate Republican politician (Obama) to fix the mess that is American health care. He just didn't think things through very well. Of course, I could be wrong about Obamacare - I'm thankfully looking at the issue from a distance, in a country that has "socialized medicine".

LeBrok
31-01-14, 19:51
Here! Here! I say England owes the United States tremendous reparations for razing our White House during The War of 1812. That will be $4,000,000 please, payable in pounds of silver.

Listen here's the situation. The global economy is a complete and utter sh-- storm. There is no recovery, at least not for the vast majority of folks.

The boys in Davos have been gleefully rubbing their necks for the last few years, grateful everything's attached and accounted for and that there wasn't a replay of the French Revolution (obviously elites didn't fair too well during that time). Soon their greed will override their fear and the full bore fleecing of the remaining Middle Class will begin (we see this here with ObamaCare). War will begin, fortunes will be made, the rich get richer...

Nothing changes. Everything stays the same. Welcome to the wonderful world of neo-feudalism. Grab a shovel, keep your head down, and keep digging.
Can you explain this conundrum, how come rich want to keep all poor (fleecing the remaining middle class), even though they make more money when society is rich, when they can do more business, more sales, more profits.
To illustrate my argument, here is a number of billionaires in USA - 442, in whole Africa - 12. So tell us where it is easier to get rich, among poor?

To illustrate my point even better I should mention that in China 25 years ago there was no middle class (by wester standards of living) and only the First Secretary of Communist party could have been considered a billionaire. Now the middle class is estimated at 400 million people with 122 known billionaires.
Why on earth the rich would like to destroy the middle class if well being of middle class, and good economy of the whole country, is the key to making more billions?

LeBrok
31-01-14, 20:00
Canada need to step away from the poisonous tar sands and also step away from the FTA, if that's possible, since the Americans seem to be determined to destroy themselves with misgovernment and bad economic policies. If we can't separate ourselves sufficiently from the dying elephant, we'll end up as badly off economically, politically and socially as the Americans.

Really? This dying elephant is perking along with predicted 3.2% GDP growth next year with Canada at 2.4%. We should be more worried about Canadian economy than with US. Even if they are for severe mismanagement problems in the future it will be a very long process. Sort of like decline of Roman Empire long. We are talking about 15 trillion economy with tremendous capital potential (at least twice bigger than canadian per capita). There is no growth without capital.

LeBrok
31-01-14, 20:39
The short answer is greed and lack of foresight. You are assuming they are as intelligent as you are...
Surely there are some who don't grasp much of socioeconomics. It is not really needed under a good economic system though, because is self regulating. Giving the right environment companies will reinvest all profits in new productions, creating new jobs and wealth for citizens and whole country. Many US companies are sitting on piles of cash waiting for right opportunities to invest (who likes to keep idle billions of cash in chequing account?). One reason of lackluster will to invest was current recession, the other is inability of governing and political bodies to create right environment to unleash capital, right and transparent regulations, dealing with banking problems or acting in time before system breaks, or dealing with housing bubble and rampant speculations in other markets. Real economy like stability, transparent regulations and rich middle class.


The short answer is greed and lack of foresight.
I thought that, in your previous post, you suggested deliberate and conscious action of rich to keep middle class poor.

LeBrok
31-01-14, 21:16
The short answer is greed and lack of foresight. You are assuming they are as intelligent as you are...
Generally speaking manufacturing shows strong sale and increased production and hiring. However US is big and it might not happened yet in area where you live.


Nearly 40% of car factories in North America now operate on work schedules that push production well past 80 hours a week, compared with 11% in 2008, said Ron Harbour, a senior partner with the Oliver Wyman Inc. management consulting firm
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324769704579008774210016680


Apple is planning to open a new factory in Arizona in partnership with mineral crystal firm GT Advanced Technologies, to make sapphire components for its devices.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/05/apple_factory_arizona/


US Housing Market Up: 139,000 More Homes Built In February 2013 Than In February 2012, A 24.3% Jump

With time passing by, Asia's economic growth and their middle class rise there will be less incentive to produce anything there for US market. Manufacturing jobs will come back, also Asia will by more made in America products. Surely better times coming to America. However the huge deficit and debt on all government levels and future debt payments will force government to increase taxes, suck money from private wallets and slow future GDP per capita growth.

There is another unexpected phenomenon started to unwrap. More and more manual jobs are done by machines and robots, and bigger revolution to come soon in this department. As positive as it is for GDP growth for whole country, it means fewer jobs for ordinary Joe. It is probably not much of a problem because booming economies will create extra jobs in services. However the new technologies are destructive for cash flow.
Old model of cash flow:
consumer->company->employee->buying products->consumer->company, etc
This cash flow will break down because robots won't make money and won't spend it in economy.
consumer->company-(money flow stops)-robots
New money transfer model needed.