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View Full Version : The Haplogroup E in Europe.



Ferreira
29-06-11, 13:43
I'm quite interested in the Haplogroup E, because it is quite exotic in the whole of Europe. In this forum I will collect the news published about the E Haplogroup and its subclades.

Then I'm going to put three charts about frequency and distribution. As you all know, the percentages vary slightly depending on the sample.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 13:45
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8359/europaif.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/europaif.jpg/)

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/8845/europaii.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/europaii.jpg/)

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/8466/europaiii.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/808/europaiii.jpg/)

Ferreira
29-06-11, 13:51
We can see through these charts the different subclade of Haplogroup E sum approximately 25-27% in Greece, 12-14% in the Balkans and 10-12% in the Iberian Peninsula. In Germany and France decreases to less than 5%.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 13:56
Now we are going to analyze the different subclades E. A good starting point is the article on Wikipedia, explained in understandable form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

There are a lot of subclades, but almost all Europeans belong to only two subclades: E-M81 and E-M78.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 14:04
Then we had E-M78 in Greece, Balkans, Italy and Central Europe.

Sub Clades of E1b1b1a1 (E-M78)
There are four recognized sub-clades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2006)).

E1b1b1a1a (E-V12). Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important sub-clade E1b1b1a1a2 (E-V32) which is very common amongst Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis.
E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.
E1b1b1a1c (E-V22). Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places.
E1b1b1a1d (E-V65). Associated with the Maghreb, but also found in Italy and Spain.
E1b1b1a1e (E-M521). Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008))

Ferreira
29-06-11, 14:07
And now, E-M81, in Spain and Portugal.

E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb), dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Arredi-28) This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Arredi-28)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-29)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-30) Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozabite_people), Middle Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Atlas), Kabyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people) and other Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) marker".

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)
E-M81 is also found in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_(region)) (5/89) and Île-de-France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region)) (5/91),[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-39)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-40) in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina)),[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-41) and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) (especially near Lucera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera))[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36) possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe), Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), and Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage) empires.
As a result of its old world distribution, this sub-clade is found throughout Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America), for example 6.1% in Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba),[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-42) 5.4% in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-43) and among Hispanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic) men from California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California) and Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii) 2.4%.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-44)

Ferreira
29-06-11, 14:13
This map explains it better. The highest concentrations are found in the Algerian Sahara and Morocco. In Europe, only Portugal and Spain has a strong presence, as in Italy and France only occurs in very specific places, and it is not so important overall.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2810/em81.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/em81.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Ferreira
29-06-11, 15:44
Comprehensive genetic study of haplogroup E.

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

Ferreira
29-06-11, 15:53
Frequency and distribution of Haplogroup E in Europe according to the previous study. No surprises, Greece 20-25%, Balkans 12-15%, Spain 12%. France much lower percentage.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7139/37307603.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/37307603.jpg/)


Frequency and distribution of the Subclades of Haplogroup E

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7751/31422494.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/31422494.jpg/)

Ferreira
29-06-11, 15:57
As we are seing only in Portugal and Spain dominates subclade M81, of Berber origin. In the rest of Europe the predominant subclade is M78 whose origin would have to place it in Middle East. France occupies an intermediate position, although there are larger number of M78 (60%) than M81 (40%). In any case, in France the total amount of E (M78 + M81) is by far lower than in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkan Peninsula.

Canek
29-06-11, 20:34
Excellent topic Ferreira. You can notice how different is the Iberian Peninsula from the real Europe.

Some thread like this was needed.

sparkey
29-06-11, 20:45
Excellent topic Ferreira. You can notice how different is the Iberian Peninsula from the real Europe.

Some thread like this was needed.

Hm... Haplogroup E in Iberia is only about 12%, and the Berber-origin Haplogroup E is only about half of that. ~6% on the Y-line is not sufficient to differentiate Iberians from other Europeans, especially considering that they have greater percentages of typically European haplogroups (like European-type R1b at ~65% and Haplogroup I at ~7%, not to mention European-type Haplogroup E at levels not too far beneath Berber-type Haplogroup E). And I suspect (but don't have figures onhand) that Berber contribution to Iberian genetics is significantly lower in non-Y lines than in Y lines.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 20:49
Hm... Haplogroup E in Iberia is only about 12%, and the Berber-origin Haplogroup E is only about half of that. ~6% on the Y-line is not sufficient to differentiate Iberians from other Europeans, especially considering that they have greater percentages of typically European haplogroups (like European-type R1b at ~65% and Haplogroup I at ~7%, not to mention European-type Haplogroup E at levels not too far beneath Berber-type Haplogroup E). And I suspect (but don't have figures onhand) that Berber contribution to Iberian genetics is significantly lower in non-Y lines than in Y lines.

E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.

Canek
29-06-11, 20:52
I mean spaniards are not as european as upper Europe. It is a fact. Very well said again Ferreira.

Sybilla
29-06-11, 21:12
@Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
But we are all European.
It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 21:17
E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.

You are total madman. You have no knowledge of how genes work or what genetics research is all about. Stop acting like a parrot and making a complete fool of yourself.

sparkey
29-06-11, 21:18
E-M81 it is 75-80% of all haplogroup E in Spain. E-M78 is very much a minority in Spain.

Which source is that coming from? Your maps here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26579-The-Haplogroup-E-in-Europe.&p=374038&viewfull=1#post374038) apparently show <75% of E-M81 in Spain and a lot less than 50% in Portugal. Most of the studies I've seen have given mid-single-digit percentages for overall E-M81 but I may be missing one, I've only skimmed the articles that you've provided. It is still dwarfed by other, more commonly European haplogroups, I think we can agree.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 21:22
@Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
But we are all European.
It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.

Of course. :good_job:

What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 21:23
Which source is that coming from? Your maps here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26579-The-Haplogroup-E-in-Europe.&p=374038&viewfull=1#post374038) apparently show <75% of E-M81 in Spain and a lot less than 50% in Portugal. Most of the studies I've seen have given mid-single-digit percentages for overall E-M81 but I may be missing one, I've only skimmed the articles that you've provided. It is still dwarfed by other, more commonly European haplogroups, I think we can agree.

No, you aren't missing anything. Low to mid-single digits is correct.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 21:38
@Canek: what does it mean that Spaniards are not as European as the other Europeans? Europe is traditionally divided in 4 areas: North West, South West, South East and North East, but genetics have demonstered that this division is not that right. There are various genetic regions in Europe: Italy, the Iberian peninsula, the Balkans, Greece, Russia, Scandinavia, Finland, the British Isles and Germany more or less (and others that I don't remember right now). Every region is as European as the others, but everyone has its own characterists and looks. Some are more similar to each others than others. For exemple Italy-Greece and the Balkans are very much a continuum, while the Iberian Peninsula is more connected to France. Germany and Scandinavia are an other continuum.
But we are all European.
It's possible that the Berber domination left a trace in Spain but Spaniards are very easy to spot among real Berbers.

Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 21:42
Sparkey, according to the graph approximately are 75% (or 3/4) M81.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4264/espaavl.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/espaavl.jpg/)

Canek
29-06-11, 21:42
Of course. :good_job:

What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.

One word: Delusional. And may I remind you that Ferreira is a galician name?

Ferreira
29-06-11, 21:47
You are total madman. You have no knowledge of how genes work or what genetics research is all about. Stop acting like a parrot and making a complete fool of yourself.

If you want to provide some scientific study in favor or against, it will be welcome. But if you are going to talk nonsense then best you don't participate. Are you really interested in the Y-DNA?

Canek
29-06-11, 21:50
Ignore Grey Moss my friend. It must be a clone account of Wilhelm or Cambria Red.

Again thanks for a excellent thread about the AFRICAN roots of the spaniards.

Sybilla
29-06-11, 21:56
Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.

I don't exclude this possibility, but for the simple fact that around the stright of Gibraltar very likely climate on the two sides are very similar, so does also the solar exposition and impact, etc. etc. so it can be that in Andalusia natives have evolved features that are similar to those of some Berbers. Exactly like I would not be surprised if someone in Sicily would look similar to a Tunisian or in Rhodes some Greek looked like a Turk/Lebaneses.

However I doubt that most Andalusians and Sicilians look more Berber than European. Excluding in toto that there are individuals who might resemble Berbers would be however very stupid and arrogant too.
Two individuals can look similar also being very different genetically.


Of course. :good_job:

What this faux Spaniard Ferreira fails to understand is that the great majority of M-81 in Iberia, as in many other places in Europe, results from ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic) migrations and has no impact on phenotype. Very little M-81 in Spain and Portugal comes from the Muslim occupation.

Yes, I think it's the same with J2 in Italy and Romania. Italy and Romania experienced almost no levantine domination but we have the same high frequencies of J2 (Romania even more than Italy).

Knovas
29-06-11, 22:01
Too low African roots to separate Iberians from the rest of Europeans, that's the fact you always like to forget.

Come on funny clown, continue...¡dance! XD

Sybilla
29-06-11, 22:03
I also wanted to add that establish who is more European is pretty abusive and not scientific at all. From a Spanish prospective the most exotic would be some Baltics and Russian cousins who show strong mongoloid features (especially East Baltids), from a northern European prospective Italians, Iberians, Albanians and Greeks would be the most exotic. As an Italian I found very exotic a Russian girl from Moscow with slanted blue eyes and rounding face. I saw something asiatic in her.
Most of us probably associate the "pure" European to the British/Germanic type, simply becouse the largest racial policies arose and were spread in the germanic area (British colonies and German Reich). In ancient Greece, for exemple, some books were written in which was esposed that the purest and superior race is the Southern European one, fair but not too pale, dark but not too dark.

Europe is a continent and to establish who is more European is like to jump in Asia and try to establish if a Thai is more Asiatic than a Japanese or a Malaysian. Pretty absurd.
European is every person who has a skintone from pale to brunette/olive, has a not flat nose, shows prognatism and has caucasian facial features. Eyes and hair colours don't matter, as well as height and corporature.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 22:09
I don't exclude this possibility, but for the simple fact that around the stright of Gibraltar very likely climate on the two sides are very similar, so does also the solar exposition and impact, etc. etc. so it can be that in Andalusia natives have evolved features that are similar to those of some Berbers. Exactly like I would not be surprised if someone in Sicily would look similar to a Tunisian or in Rhodes some Greek looked like a Turk/Lebaneses.

However I doubt that most Andalusians and Sicilians look more Berber than European. Excluding in toto that there are individuals who might resemble Berbers would be however very stupid and arrogant too.
Two individuals can look similar also being very different genetically.



Yes, I think it's the same with J2 in Italy and Romania. Italy and Romania experienced almost no levantine domination but we have the same high frequencies of J2 (Romania even more than Italy).

I agreed with you in general. The problem is that a lot of spaniards are very racist people, and because of finding 10-12% of the spanish population belong to haplogroup E (non-European origin) means something terrible for them. Then they start to insult.

Canek
29-06-11, 22:12
Spaniards have problems facing the fact their african roots are more higher than in the rest of Europe (they have an inferiority complex about it), but I don't want to generalize now. We have finally meet a spaniard (Ferreira) who is able to accept this and the fact that his countrymen are very racist.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 22:20
Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.

Total hogwash! LMAO!

Ferreira
29-06-11, 22:26
Total hogwash! LMAO!

Participate to say that ... Do you want to destroy the forum because the genetic study is not what you expected?
How old are you, 5, 10?

Canek
29-06-11, 22:30
I know spaniards and some morrocans too... and most of them look exactly the same.

Ferreira is right as usual. ;)

Carlitos
29-06-11, 22:31
Sois insoportables.

sparkey
29-06-11, 22:34
I agreed with you in general. The problem is that a lot of spaniards are very racist people, and because of finding 10-12% of the spanish population belong to haplogroup E (non-European origin) means something terrible for them. Then they start to insult.

Of course, we're back to the idea that only single digits are of recent Berber origin, certainly not all of the Haplogroup E in Iberia. It's commonly thought (although it has been recently challenged (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26514-majority-of-haplogroup-G-found-in-a-French-neolithic-site)) that most Haplogroup E is older in Europe even than European Haplogroup R1b, including a significant portion of the Haplogroup E in Iberia.

I would also be surprised if ALL of the Berber-type Haplgroup E in Iberia came from the occupation... to me, to suggest such would be like suggesting that people couldn't move across the Straight of Gibraltar until then, which is absurd, of course. The total contribution of that occupation must be in the low-single-digits in terms of percent... present, but small.

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 22:59
Yes it's true, but a lot of spaniards, specially andalusians, could pass for residents of northern morocco/ northern Algeria, and vice versa.

In Spain there are a lot of moroccon inmigrants, and some of them are indistinguishable from the Spanish people.

Hey mountebank, do these Andalusians look like your typical (not Kyble or similar original or Eurasian Berbers) Algerian or Moroccan? LMFAO!! Now, do us all a favor and go back to your sandbox.:laughing:

Cambrius (The Red)
29-06-11, 23:12
Of course, we're back to the idea that only single digits are of recent Berber origin, certainly not all of the Haplogroup E in Iberia. It's commonly thought (although it has been recently challenged (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26514-majority-of-haplogroup-G-found-in-a-French-neolithic-site)) that most Haplogroup E is older in Europe even than European Haplogroup R1b, including a significant portion of the Haplogroup E in Iberia.

I would also be surprised if ALL of the Berber-type Haplgroup E in Iberia came from the occupation... to me, to suggest such would be like suggesting that people couldn't move across the Straight of Gibraltar until then, which is absurd, of course. The total contribution of that occupation must be in the low-single-digits in terms of percent... present, but small.

Yes, the consensus is that the Muslim invasion had very little genetic impact on Iberia.

The genetic substratum of Spain and Portugal is essentilly Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic with minor Near Eastern influences. Muslims in Iberia, unlike the Celts and Germanics were not settlers. Big difference.

BTW, the DODECAD and Polako autosomal frequencies show very clearly how overwhelmingly European Iberians are. Spain presently registers ~ 91% Euro, with about 39% W. Euro and N. Euro while Portugal is at 85%, including ~ 38% W. Euro and N. Euro. The difference between the two population groups has to do with much higher Basque frequencies for Spain, which boosts the S. Euro component and a higher (5-6%) NW African affinity in Portugal (mainly S. Portugal).

Ferreira
30-06-11, 01:49
Hey mountebank, do these Andalusians look like your typical (not Kyble or similar original or Eurasian Berbers) Algerian or Moroccan? LMFAO!! Now, do us all a favor and go back to your sandbox.:laughing:

You are so ignorant! The two last men are Los Morancos, two famous regular comedians on Spanish television. They are Andalusians, and are so atypical that used to play jokes with an English accent, making a joke of being English.
The girls with regional clothes could be from souther Spain or Norther Morocco. We know they are from Andalucia only because of their clothes.


You do not realize, unaware that your ignorance, for every picture of a blond Spanish I can get 100000 photos of dark haired spanish.

Also in Arab countries, including Morocco, there are people with lighter features. Lala Salma, wife of King of Morocco.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/461/lalasalma.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/lalasalma.jpg/)

Ferreira
30-06-11, 01:52
Yes, the consensus is that the Muslim invasion had very little genetic impact on Iberia.

The genetic substratum of Spain and Portugal is essentilly Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic with minor Near Eastern influences. Muslims in Iberia, unlike the Celts and Germanics were not settlers. Big difference.

BTW, the DODECAD and Polako autosomal frequencies show very clearly how overwhelmingly European Iberians are. Spain presently registers ~ 91% Euro, with about 39% W. Euro and N. Euro while Portugal is at 85%, including ~ 38% W. Euro and N. Euro. The difference between the two population groups has to do with much higher Basque frequencies for Spain, which boosts the S. Euro component and a higher (5-6%) NW African affinity in Portugal (mainly S. Portugal).

There is no such consensus. That's what you want to believe. The Muslims ruled southern Spain for 8 centuries, and they were in Spain not as slaves but as masters. Do you think they were all gays? they did not have relations with women in the Iberian Peninsula? Hahaha.

Ferreira
30-06-11, 02:03
Moroccan Blonde girl thought might be the missing daughter of the McCanns. This photo circulated around the world. Obviously blondes are a minority in Morocco and Andalusia (as in the rest of Spain).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/26/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

Her photo was published in newspapers across Europe, because they thought it could be Madeleine McCann. But she was moroccan girl.

Carlitos
30-06-11, 02:11
At the wedding of the heir to the throne of Morocco, the Swedish press confused Lala Salma with Rania of Jordan.

Ferreira
30-06-11, 02:36
At the wedding of the heir to the throne of Morocco, the Swedish press confused Lala Salma with Rania of Jordan.

And what?

Rania of Jordan is a beautiful woman.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/1377/queenraniaofjordan.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/830/queenraniaofjordan.jpg/)


Salma Lala and Rania are not darker than the average in Spain.

Carlitos
30-06-11, 02:49
¿Has sido feliz los años que has estado trabajando en España?, ¿Finalmente te echaron, te cumplió el visado quizá?

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 05:31
Participate to say that ... Do you want to destroy the forum because the genetic study is not what you expected?
How old are you, 5, 10?
Look clown, you are the one who is infantile. You know zero about population genetics. Everyone who is well informed is well aware that Spaniards have overwhelming European genetic affinities. Higher than many other Euro countries. You're sick. Mex.

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 05:39
You are so ignorant! The two last men are Los Morancos, two famous regular comedians on Spanish television. They are Andalusians, and are so atypical that used to play jokes with an English accent, making a joke of being English.
The girls with regional clothes could be from souther Spain or Norther Morocco. We know they are from Andalucia only because of their clothes.


You do not realize, unaware that your ignorance, for every picture of a blond Spanish I can get 100000 photos of dark haired spanish.

Also in Arab countries, including Morocco, there are people with lighter features. Lala Salma, wife of King of Morocco.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/461/lalasalma.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/lalasalma.jpg/)

She's Amazigh. Her phenotype is not common in Morocco. Amazighs descend from the original Eurasian Berbers, ostensibly the first peoples of N. Africa (spreading M-81). Amazigh tribes today make up only about 20% of Morocco's population. Your standard Moroccan certainly does not look like her.

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 05:41
There is no such consensus. That's what you want to believe. The Muslims ruled southern Spain for 8 centuries, and they were in Spain not as slaves but as masters. Do you think they were all gays? they did not have relations with women in the Iberian Peninsula? Hahaha.

Show us genius. Go ahead and continue to make a complete fool of yourself, Mexman. Do you think autosomal DNA research lies? You are truly pitiful.

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 05:45
There is no such consensus. That's what you want to believe. The Muslims ruled southern Spain for 8 centuries, and they were in Spain not as slaves but as masters. Do you think they were all gays? they did not have relations with women in the Iberian Peninsula? Hahaha.

Read the body of research, turkey You're not a population geneticist, just a deranged t-r-o-l-l passing on misinformation. No intelligent person on this forum supports your tendentious, idiotic notions. Find another sandbox to crap up.

Canek
30-06-11, 10:27
Excellent exposition Ferreira, as usual. In 900 years of occupation is obvious that the muslim had a lot of fun with the local women.

It's unfortunate that the rest of your countrymen are in denial.

Knovas
30-06-11, 11:04
Berbers are genetically different form the common North Africans. However, they are not comparable as Europeans. I read somewhere that their light features came directly from Cro-Magnons, wich seemed to be fair skinned, blond and light eyed.

By the way Canek, you are the only who is in denial with the fact showed in admixture analysis. ¿Why don't you say anything about Dodecad or Eurogenes? oh yes, it throws down all your stupid theories, I see XD.

Drac
30-06-11, 11:51
This map explains it better. The highest concentrations are found in the Algerian Sahara and Morocco. In Europe, only Portugal and Spain has a strong presence, as in Italy and France only occurs in very specific places, and it is not so important overall.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2810/em81.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/em81.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


I'm not sure if you think that we are blind or as dull as you are, but anyone can clearly see purple almost all over Italy in this map that you quite contradictorily keep spamming in your silly & useless anti-Spanish quest. Just for trying to insult the intelligence of the general audience here, you and your stooge/sockpuppet ("Canek") deserve to be banned.

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 16:11
Dumb and dumber, Ferreira's second head. You obviously know little about Iberian history

Ferreira
30-06-11, 16:47
Dumb and dumber, Ferreira's second head. You obviously know little about Iberian history

Grey Moss you lives in another planet.

The vast majority of Spanish people are brunette or dark brown hair. Stop being a fool and accept reality.

Ferreira
30-06-11, 16:47
The overall frequency of haplogroup E-M78 is 7.78% in the Piedmont and 11.44% in Sicily.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 16:57
Grey Moss you lives in another planet.

The vast majority of Spanish people are brunette or dark brown hair. Stop being a fool and accept reality.

Listen, mountebank, who said anything about hair color? Are you on drugs?

Cambrius (The Red)
30-06-11, 17:15
@Sparky

Actually, just about all Iberian mt-DNA is European. H, the most common European mt-DNA haplogroup, is very high. About 54% in Spain and 44.5% in Portugal. Also, ancient H clade percentages are significant for both countries along with U frequencies.

Canek
01-07-11, 13:38
That's because arab didn't bring women to Iberian... they rapped spanish women... you are strongly "african" in your Y-DNA fact... more than european. It's a FACT. :cool-v:

Drac
01-07-11, 14:48
That's because arab didn't bring women to Iberian... they rapped spanish women... you are strongly "african" in your Y-DNA fact... more than european. It's a FACT. :cool-v:

Lying clown, the haplogroup that you pretend to label as "Arab/African" is only about 5-6% of the Y-DNA pool of Spain. Apparently you not only do not understand about history and genetics but also basic math does not seem to be your thing either.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-07-11, 16:34
That's because arab didn't bring women to Iberian... they rapped spanish women... you are strongly "african" in your Y-DNA fact... more than european. It's a FACT. :cool-v:

FACT!? Canek, you must be living in an alternative universe. Do you actually believe the entire world is brain dead? First, haplogroups reveal only migrational impact over centuries and in no way reflect FULL HEREDITY. Second, Y-DNA J1 (semitic - Arab / Jewish) is extremely low in Spain (1%) and registers just slightly higher in Portugal (< 3%). The average for the ENTIRE Peninsula is < 2%. Third, Y-DNA (E3b) comprises only about half of total E in Iberia (~ 4% for Spain) and, according to most research findings, dates from the Mesolithic / Neolithic period. DNA that ancient has virtually no bearing on phenotype. Only a very low amount of M-81 can be attributed to the Muslim invasions.

Why, for instance, do the Pasiegos in Asturias, who have the highest frequencies of E3b (M-81) in all of Iberia, genetically cluster closer to Northern Europeans? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

You are a mendacious mountebank, intent on presenting Spaniards as something other they what they are. That is clearly RACIST behavior. Like your other head (Ferreira) you have zero credibility.

Ferreira
01-07-11, 19:20
Interesting file about Pasiegos (population of Valle del Pas, Cantabria, Northern Spain).

http://www.mitochondrial.net/showabstract.php?pmid=12914567

Valle del Pas is the only place in Europe where the haplogroup E subclade E-M81 subclade exceeds 20%.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-07-11, 19:42
Interesting file about Pasiegos (population of Valle del Pas, Cantabria, Northern Spain).

http://www.mitochondrial.net/showabstract.php?pmid=12914567

Valle del Pas is the only place in Europe where the haplogroup E subclade E-M81 subclade exceeds 20%.

This study is nearly a decade old, an eternity in genetic science. In any case, most M-81 in Iberia has been researched by any number of geneticists as being ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic). Pasiegos actually cluster closer to N. Europeans and they have nothing to do genetically with North African groups.

Ferreira
01-07-11, 20:57
This study is nearly a decade old, an eternity in genetic science. In any case, most M-81 has been researched by any number of geneticists as being ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic). Pasiegos actually cluster closer to N. Europeans and they have nothing to do genetically with North African groups.

If you don't believe in genetics, why do you participate in a forum about Genetic?
It's funny.

Ferreira
01-07-11, 20:59
In fact: The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% to 41%.

41% it's an awesome data. It's only matched or exceeded in Central Sahara.

Ferreira
01-07-11, 21:05
That violet point within the red circle is Valle del Pas.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4023/pasg.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/pasg.jpg/)

Cambrius (The Red)
01-07-11, 21:42
If you don't believe in genetics, why do you participate in a forum about Genetic?
It's funny.

Of course I believe in genetic research, but what determines TRUE AND FULL ANCESTRY is AUTOSOMAL DNA, not haplogroups. Pasiegos, and all other Iberians do not cluster with N. Africans. Not even close. Now stop acting like a parrot, already. No one takes you seriously.

Carlitos
01-07-11, 21:47
It is a charlatan, all breeders of this forum know the subject of pasiegos, make their guess, after months or years is a discovery and what they had thought no good, but hey, it's interesting.

A South American is ridiculous trying to make the world believe that the Spanish have the appearance of South Americans, you are truly self-conscious, although I understand it, I would.

Ferreira
01-07-11, 23:10
This study is nearly a decade old, an eternity in genetic science. In any case, most M-81 in Iberia has been researched by any number of geneticists as being ancient (Mesolithic / Neolithic). Pasiegos actually cluster closer to N. Europeans and they have nothing to do genetically with North African groups.

Sure, there are 6 escandinavian countries on planet Earth: Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Spain.
Hahaha.

Carlitos
01-07-11, 23:15
No veo por qué te parece tan raro, tú mismo intentas meter a España en el Magreb a la fuerza y sin fundamento.

Carlitos
01-07-11, 23:20
The thread is haplogroup E in Europe should be called Haplogroup E in Spain, because Ferreira speaks only of Spain, is obsessed with Spain.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-07-11, 00:22
Sure, there are 6 escandinavian countries on planet Earth: Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Spain.
Hahaha.

Read the autosomal research, duffus. Even the old study you referenced suggests a N. Euro connection (mt-DNA haplogroups U and V) with respect to the Pasiegos. Where were you when God handed out brains?:laughing:

Ferreira
02-07-11, 00:27
Read the autosomal research, duffus. Even the old study you referenced suggests a N. Euro connection (haplogroup U) with respect to the Pasiegos. Where were you when God handed out brains?:laughing:

Yes, yes, Spain is the sixth nordic country of Europe, hahaha.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-07-11, 00:32
Yes, yes, Spain is the sixth nordic country of Europe, hahaha.

READ THE AUTOSOMAL RESEARCH! You are insane!

Ferreira
02-07-11, 00:39
READ THE AUTOSOMAL RESEARCH! You are insane!

This forum is for Y-DNA, don't you understand it? Read the thread!!!!!

Y-DNA
Y-DNA
Y-DNA

Do you understand it now???

Knovas
02-07-11, 01:31
Yes, Y-DNA. But Y-DNA is not the full DNA, neither is not the half side, a quarter, and less and less... only talks about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago. Don't try to fool anyone, everybody knows (you included) that after thousands of years being in Europe is imposible that a person can be closer to North Africans.

Ferreira
02-07-11, 01:50
Yes, Y-DNA. But Y-DNA is not the full DNA, neither is not the half side, a quarter, and less and less... only talks about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago. Don't try to fool anyone, everybody knows (you included) that after thousands of years being in Europe is imposible that a person can be closer to North Africans.

I never have said that the Spaniards were Africans. We are Europeans, but I'm not going to be denying things that I have not said.
But thousand of years? It's wrong.
Muslim Empire finished in Spain 500 years ago.
It's an absurd that one Spanish can not be related with a North African but instead It would be posible to be related with a Nordic. That's an inconsistency.

Carlitos
02-07-11, 02:05
Tío creo que el espectáculo que estás dando aquí es bochornoso y no se ve en foreros de ningún otro país, es posible que seas una secuela de la confusión de años atrás, de nazionalismos regionalistas y de cuando en España se puso de moda rechazar los esteriotipos culturales que había impuesto el franquismo que ya sabemos que fueron los andaluces porque eran los más exportables y porque sucedió así, y de todas formas incluso esa moda ya ha pasado y el ataque que estás haciendo a Andalucía es de no tener vergüenza, estás intentando darnos una identidad que no nos corresponde y eso para mí es fascismo, aquí por suerte hay gente preparada que sólo te va a ver como un loco, otros simplemente nos avergonzamos de que si eres español verdaderamente te comportes así con otra región de tu propio país y más cuando sabes que de Galicia también se puede criticar y poner muchas fotos de gallegos muy tostados y muchas cosas feas y negativas, y sin embargo aquí nadie lo ha hecho, por educación, así que puedes seguir, no vas a engañara a nadie, ahora te digo una cosa, que si te pillaba te hacía trizas.

Ferreira
02-07-11, 02:13
Tío creo que el espectáculo que estás dando aquí es bochornoso y no se ve en foreros de ningún otro país, es posible que seas una secuela de la confusión de años atrás, de nazionalismos regionalistas y de cuando en España se puso de moda rechazar los esteriotipos culturales que había impuesto el franquismo que ya sabemos que fueron los andaluces porque eran los más exportables y porque sucedió así, y de todas formas incluso esa moda ya ha pasado y el ataque que estás haciendo a Andalucía es de no tener vergüenza, estás intentando darnos una identidad que no nos corresponde y eso para mí es fascismo, aquí por suerte hay gente preparada que sólo te va a ver como un loco, otros simplemente nos avergonzamos de que si eres español verdaderamente te comportes así con otra región de tu propio país y más cuando sabes que de Galicia también se puede criticar y poner muchas fotos de gallegos muy tostados y muchas cosas feas y negativas, y sin embargo aquí nadie lo ha hecho, por educación, así que puedes seguir, no vas a engañara a nadie, ahora te digo una cosa, que si te pillaba te hacía trizas.

El espectáculo lo estáis dando vosotros en un foro sobre el Y-DNA.
Cuando se acaban los argumentos llegan los insultos y las amenazas.

Carlitos
02-07-11, 02:21
Si verdaderamente eres español, eres una "M" de español si no lo eres lo mismo te digo.

Ferreira
02-07-11, 02:48
The E-V13 clade is equivalent to the "alpha cluster" of E-M78 reported in Cruciani et al. (2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2004)), and was first defined by the SNP V13 in Cruciani et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2006)). Another SNP is known for this clade, V36, reported in Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2007)). All known positive tests for V13 are also positive for V36. So E-V13 is currently considered "phylogenetically equivalent" to E-V36.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2007))
Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) and some parts of Italy. In different studies, particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo) Albanians (45.6%) (Peričic et al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFPeri.C4.8Dic_et_al.2005))), Albanian speakers in the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) (34.4% reported in Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFBattagliaFornarinoAl-ZaheryOlivieri2008))), and in some parts of Greece (about 35% in some of the areas studied by King et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFKing_et_al.2008)).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-17) More generally, high frequencies have also been found in other areas of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), and amongst Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians), Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians), Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)) and Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-4)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Pericic2005-12)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Rosser2000-18)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-19)
Within Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), frequencies tend to be higher in Southern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Italy),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2007-0) with particularly high results sometimes seen in particular areas; for example, in Santa Ninfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ninfa) and Piazza Armerina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina) in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-20) High frequencies appear to exist also in some northern areas[Note 9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-21) for example around Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice),[Note 10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-22) Genoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-23) and Rimini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimini),[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-24) as well as on the island of Corsica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica), which is to the west of mainland northern Italy[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-25)
Phylogenetic analysis strongly suggest that these lineages have spread through Europe, from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2007-0) Before then, the SNP mutation, V13 apparently first arose in West Asia around 10 thousand years ago, and although not widespread there, it is for example found in high levels (>10% of the male population) in Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Cypriot)

Ferreira
02-07-11, 02:55
Distribution of subclade EV-13. It could be Albanese Haplogroup.

While small percentage, it is strange presence in Portugal and Galicia (NW of Spain).

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9422/800pxhge1b1b1a2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/800pxhge1b1b1a2.png/)

iapetoc
02-07-11, 03:18
Distribution of subclade EV-13. It could be Albanese Haplogroup.

While small percentage, it is strange presence in Portugal and Galicia (NW of Spain).

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9422/800pxhge1b1b1a2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/800pxhge1b1b1a2.png/)


That map is not Correct about Greece cyprus and minor asia

check the numerals in peloponese,
the diversity is bigger in peloponese and the % equal,
historically there are many connections with messenians to be E-V13

in fact the cut Albanian tribes like arberesh have very low E-V13

E-V13 is connected with copper times and migration from cyprus,

Cyprus has also high E-13



Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.


According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

Trombetta et al after rigorous scientific testing brought up a theory that E carriers in the Balkans arrived by sea




http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf (http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html)

2007

Oxford University Press

“By analyzing a worldwide sample of 6,501 male subjects, wehave identified 517 chromosomes belonging to haplogroup E-M78, more than twice the number found in a previous study (Cruciani et al. 2004). These chromosomes have been further analyzed for the biallelic markers M148 (Underhill et al. 2000), M224 (Underhill et al. 2001), V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32 (Cruciani et al. 2006), V36, and V65 (present study).... Four subhaplogroups were either rare(1 and 2 subjects for E-V27 and E-V19, respectively) or absent(E-M148andE-M224)in the global sample, whereas theother haplogroups/paragroups were relatively common (table1 and fig. 2).”

You can see that subhaplogroups of E-M78 are (excluding those that are very rare):

E-V12
E-V32
E-V13
E-78*
E-V65 and
E-V22.



“In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.”


Another strange but interesting is that,

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/



Also

E1b1b1a (E-V68)

Main article: E1b1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b1a)
E1b1b1a (E-V68), is dominated by its longer-known sub-clade E-M78 (E1b1b1a1). Three "E-V68*" individuals who are in E-V68 but not E-M78 have been reported in Sardinia, by Trombetta et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFTrombettaCrucianiSellittoScozzari201 1)), when announcing its discovery. The authors noted that because E-V68* was not found in the Middle Eastern samples, this appears to be evidence of maritime migration from Africa to southwestern Europe.
E1b1b1a1 (E-M78) is a commonly occurring sub-clade, widely distributed in North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa), the Horn of Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_of_Africa), West Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Asia), (the Middle East and Near East) "up to Southern Asia",[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Cruciani2007-0) and all of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Cruciani2006-24) The European distribution has a frequency peak centered in parts of the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) (up to almost 50% in some areas)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Semino2004-2)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-25)) and Italy, and declining frequencies evident toward western, central, and northeastern Europe.
Based on genetic STR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsatellite_%28genetics%29) variance data, Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E1b1b1a1 originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in their study refers specifically to Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya).[Note 4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-26) about 18,600 years ago (17,300 - 20,000 years ago).[Note 5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-27) Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008)) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugium) which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan) and Egypt, near Lake Nubia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nubia), until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic) foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor) and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFHassan_et_al.2008)) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29&action=edit&section=6)] Sub Clades of E1b1b1a1 (E-M78)

There are four recognized sub-clades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2006)).


E1b1b1a1a (E-V12). Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important sub-clade E1b1b1a1a2 (E-V32) which is very common amongst Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis.
E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.
E1b1b1a1c (E-V22). Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places.
E1b1b1a1d (E-V65). Associated with the Maghreb, but also found in Italy and Spain.
E1b1b1a1e (E-M521). Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008))

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png


the E-V13 is cypriotic-Levantine,


the map you show is incorrect, in peloponese exist also a 44% E-V13 and in cyprus total 27% while in some local reach >50%

you can read dienekes about E-V13 in the balkans,


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

and cut albanian tribes.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html)

Knovas
02-07-11, 13:25
I never have said that the Spaniards were Africans. We are Europeans, but I'm not going to be denying things that I have not said.
But thousand of years? It's wrong.
Muslim Empire finished in Spain 500 years ago.
It's an absurd that one Spanish can not be related with a North African but instead It would be posible to be related with a Nordic. That's an inconsistency.
Thousands of years are the MAJOR PART of E-M81 in Iberia. And stop trying to make belive that you never said Spaniards were Africans, while you pretended to say that Pantoja's phenotype was typical in Spain and Portugal. This is FALSE and you know it perfectly.

Your nonsense goes higher and higher. If your best explanation is only the presence of one haplogroup, you better go to the circus.

Canek
02-07-11, 14:48
Excellent posts as always Ferreira... showing the world how the real spaniards look.

It's unfortunate that the rest of your countrymen can't assume that they are magrebian and gypsies for a great part.

Knovas
02-07-11, 15:58
You'd like to be on the truth, but you don't. Spaniards score more European Autosomal-DNA than other Europeans. It's time to go out for a walk and see Dodecad averages. You'll learn much more, and realise how clueless you were.

If you don't take this conclusion, the only posible answer is that your are just a t.r.o.l.l.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-07-11, 20:49
@ Ferreira

I'll tell you why (and this is a repeat) the Muslim occupation had such little impact on Iberia genetically: the Muslim invaders were small in number and, for the most part, did not settle. They were a small ruling minority that controlled only specific parts of the Iberian Peninsula. Muslims didn't dominate for 700 years; nothing near that. In addition, in the end, what remained of this element was eventually expelled. In Portugal, expulsion began in the 1200's and in Spain 250-300 years later. By comparison, the Proto-Celts and Celts settled in large numbers and remained in Iberia for well over 1,000 years. At one time, 75% of Iberia was populated by Celtic tribes. The Germanics, in particular the Visitgoths, Suevi and Buri, also settled and mixed with the local population. However, they amounted to only 400,000 to 500,000 at settlement high point, far less than the Celts.

Indigenous Spaniards and Portuguese are not genetically related or phenotypically similar to North Africans / Arabs for the simple reason that these groups do not comprise part of the Iberian genetic substratum, i.e., Paleolithic, Proto Celtic, Celtic, Germanic, with some minor Mediterranean influences.

Time to give up your childish, disingenuous crusade against Spaniards.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-07-11, 21:02
BTW folks elevated levels of E3b (M-81) is found in parts of N. Wales, in percentages exceeding those recorded among the Pasiegos of Asturias. There is an open Eupedia thread devoted to the subject.

Carlitos
03-07-11, 10:02
The E3b M-81 in Europe meet the ideal racial Canek adores. However, an E3b M-81 in Latin America would soon have the look american latin.

Canek
03-07-11, 15:14
lol, what?

in latin america we are very mixed... with it's great because mixed races makes the human being developed to a better race... we are stronger and more healthy thanks to how we are so much mixed.

Ferreiro_
03-07-11, 15:37
That map is not Correct about Greece cyprus and minor asia

check the numerals in peloponese,
the diversity is bigger in peloponese and the % equal,
historically there are many connections with messenians to be E-V13

in fact the cut Albanian tribes like arberesh have very low E-V13

E-V13 is connected with copper times and migration from cyprus,

Cyprus has also high E-13





According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

Trombetta et al after rigorous scientific testing brought up a theory that E carriers in the Balkans arrived by sea




http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf (http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html)

2007

Oxford University Press

“By analyzing a worldwide sample of 6,501 male subjects, wehave identified 517 chromosomes belonging to haplogroup E-M78, more than twice the number found in a previous study (Cruciani et al. 2004). These chromosomes have been further analyzed for the biallelic markers M148 (Underhill et al. 2000), M224 (Underhill et al. 2001), V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32 (Cruciani et al. 2006), V36, and V65 (present study).... Four subhaplogroups were either rare(1 and 2 subjects for E-V27 and E-V19, respectively) or absent(E-M148andE-M224)in the global sample, whereas theother haplogroups/paragroups were relatively common (table1 and fig. 2).”

You can see that subhaplogroups of E-M78 are (excluding those that are very rare):

E-V12
E-V32
E-V13
E-78*
E-V65 and
E-V22.



“In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.”


Another strange but interesting is that,

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/



Also

E1b1b1a (E-V68)

Main article: E1b1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b1a)
E1b1b1a (E-V68), is dominated by its longer-known sub-clade E-M78 (E1b1b1a1). Three "E-V68*" individuals who are in E-V68 but not E-M78 have been reported in Sardinia, by Trombetta et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFTrombettaCrucianiSellittoScozzari201 1)), when announcing its discovery. The authors noted that because E-V68* was not found in the Middle Eastern samples, this appears to be evidence of maritime migration from Africa to southwestern Europe.
E1b1b1a1 (E-M78) is a commonly occurring sub-clade, widely distributed in North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa), the Horn of Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_of_Africa), West Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Asia), (the Middle East and Near East) "up to Southern Asia",[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Cruciani2007-0) and all of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Cruciani2006-24) The European distribution has a frequency peak centered in parts of the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) (up to almost 50% in some areas)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Semino2004-2)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-25)) and Italy, and declining frequencies evident toward western, central, and northeastern Europe.
Based on genetic STR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsatellite_%28genetics%29) variance data, Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E1b1b1a1 originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in their study refers specifically to Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya).[Note 4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-26) about 18,600 years ago (17,300 - 20,000 years ago).[Note 5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-27) Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008)) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugium) which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan) and Egypt, near Lake Nubia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nubia), until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic) foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor) and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFHassan_et_al.2008)) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29&action=edit&section=6)] Sub Clades of E1b1b1a1 (E-M78)

There are four recognized sub-clades, which were mostly defined by Cruciani et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2006)).


E1b1b1a1a (E-V12). Found in Egypt, Sudan, and other places. Has an important sub-clade E1b1b1a1a2 (E-V32) which is very common amongst Ethiopian Oromo, Borana Oromo from Kenya and Somalis.
E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.
E1b1b1a1c (E-V22). Found in Egypt, the Middle East and other places.
E1b1b1a1d (E-V65). Associated with the Maghreb, but also found in Italy and Spain.
E1b1b1a1e (E-M521). Found in two individuals in Greece by Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008))
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png


the E-V13 is cypriotic-Levantine,


the map you show is incorrect, in peloponese exist also a 44% E-V13 and in cyprus total 27% while in some local reach >50%

you can read dienekes about E-V13 in the balkans,


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

and cut albanian tribes.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html)

The map is very generic as it is made of concentric circles, but it gives a pretty good vision.

Good answer yours. Unlike my fellow countrymen you do provide scientific documentation.

For my compatrioats: at last I have get my original name.

Ferreiro_
03-07-11, 15:38
BTW folks elevated levels of E3b (M-81) is found in parts of N. Wales, in percentages exceeding those recorded among the Pasiegos of Asturias. There is an open Eupedia thread devoted to the subject.

I don't believe you.

Ferreiro_
03-07-11, 15:43
Subclade E-V65 is much less frequent in Europe, but even so it has been detected at levels of about 3% in Cantabria according to study of Capelli (2009). Again, its highest frequency is in North AFrica, but not in Berbers as E-M81, but among moroccan arabs.


E1b1b1a1d (E-V65)
This sub-clade, equivalent to the previously classified "beta cluster", is found in high levels in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb) regions of far northern Africa. Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2007)) report levels of about 20% amongst Libyan Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Demographics) lineages, and about 30% amongst Morrocan Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Morocco). It appears to be less common amongst Berbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people), but still present in levels of >10%. The authors suggest a North African origin for this lineage. In Europe, only a few individuals were found in Italy and Greece.

Capelli et al. (2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCapelli_et_al.2009)) studied the beta cluster in Europe. They found small amounts in Southern Italy, but also traces in Cantabria, Portugal and Galicia, with Cantabria having the highest level in Europe in their study, at 3.1% (5 out of 161 people).

Ferreiro_
03-07-11, 20:23
Tío creo que el espectáculo que estás dando aquí es bochornoso y no se ve en foreros de ningún otro país, es posible que seas una secuela de la confusión de años atrás, de nazionalismos regionalistas y de cuando en España se puso de moda rechazar los esteriotipos culturales que había impuesto el franquismo que ya sabemos que fueron los andaluces porque eran los más exportables y porque sucedió así, y de todas formas incluso esa moda ya ha pasado y el ataque que estás haciendo a Andalucía es de no tener vergüenza, estás intentando darnos una identidad que no nos corresponde y eso para mí es fascismo, aquí por suerte hay gente preparada que sólo te va a ver como un loco, otros simplemente nos avergonzamos de que si eres español verdaderamente te comportes así con otra región de tu propio país y más cuando sabes que de Galicia también se puede criticar y poner muchas fotos de gallegos muy tostados y muchas cosas feas y negativas, y sin embargo aquí nadie lo ha hecho, por educación, así que puedes seguir, no vas a engañara a nadie, ahora te digo una cosa, que si te pillaba te hacía trizas.

Reporto esto a los moderadores, a ver si es posible la correspondiente denuncia policial.

Carlitos
03-07-11, 20:31
^^

It's a metaphor, means that if you could talk to you face to face without having to use the translator could refute your lies better. do not try to manipulate, anyway take days leading to the Spanish called Gypsies and Maghreb, which is not true, did you expect kisses? You deserve the punishment for causing surreptitiously, with malice aforethought.

Want to remove the few remaining Spanish forum? you find yourself trapped in your lies, curses, insults to the Spanish and still feel offended?, you're pathetic!

Cambrius (The Red)
04-07-11, 05:45
I don't believe you.

Check the research, clown. There is an E3b in N. Wales thread right on Eupedia. Are you on drugs?

Cambrius (The Red)
04-07-11, 05:52
^^

It's a metaphor, means that if you could talk to you face to face without having to use the translator could refute your lies better. do not try to manipulate, anyway take days leading to the Spanish called Gypsies and Maghreb, which is not true, did you expect kisses? You deserve the punishment for causing surreptitiously, with malice aforethought.

Want to remove the few remaining Spanish forum? you find yourself trapped in your lies, curses, insults to the Spanish and still feel offended?, you're pathetic!


Pay no attention to him. He's a deranged self-hating Third-World sociopath who knows nothing about genetics. He's here for no other reason but to spread lies and nonsense about Spaniards.

Drac
04-07-11, 12:10
I'm quite interested in the Haplogroup E, because it is quite exotic in the whole of Europe. In this forum I will collect the news published about the E Haplogroup and its subclades.

Then I'm going to put three charts about frequency and distribution. As you all know, the percentages vary slightly depending on the sample.

I am glad you like to keep harping on about this haplogroup, trying to use it as a double-edged weapon to try to "Africanize" Spain as much as possible while "Europeanizing" northern Italy at the same time, but even your own "source" clearly says that E1b1b1a is of African origin, not Middle Eastern, as you want to portray it:


E1b1b1a1 (E-M78) is a commonly occurring sub-clade, widely distributed in North Africa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/North_Africa) , the Horn of Africa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Horn_of_Africa) , West Asia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/West_Asia) , (the Middle East and Near East) "up to Southern Asia",[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2007-0) and all of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Europe) .[22] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2006-24) The European distribution has a frequency peak centered in parts of the Balkans (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkans) (up to almost 50% in some areas)[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Semino2004-2)[23] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Pericic2005-25) ) and Italy, and declining frequencies evident toward western, central, and northeastern Europe.
Based on genetic STR (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Microsatellite_(genetics)) variance data, Cruciani et al. (2007) suggests that E1b1b1a1 originated in "Northeastern Africa", which in their study refers specifically to Egypt (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egypt) and Libya (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Libya) .[Note 4] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-26) about 18,600 years ago (17,300 - 20,000 years ago).[Note 5] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-27) Battaglia et al. (2008 (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20CITEREFBattaglia_et_al.2008) ) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Refugium) which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sudan) and Egypt, near Lake Nubia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lake_Nubia) , until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mesolithic) foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Levant) and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asia_Minor) and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008 (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20CITEREFHassan_et_al.2008) ) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".

Drac
04-07-11, 12:20
Subclade E-V65 is much less frequent in Europe, but even so it has been detected at levels of about 3% in Cantabria according to study of Capelli (2009). Again, its highest frequency is in North AFrica, but not in Berbers as E-M81, but among moroccan arabs.

E1b1b1a1d (E-V65)
This sub-clade, equivalent to the previously classified "beta cluster", is found in high levels in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb) regions of far northern Africa. Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCruciani_et_al.2007)) report levels of about 20% amongst Libyan Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Demographics) lineages, and about 30% amongst Morrocan Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Morocco). It appears to be less common amongst Berbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people), but still present in levels of >10%. The authors suggest a North African origin for this lineage. In Europe, only a few individuals were found in Italy and Greece.

Capelli et al. (2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCapelli_et_al.2009)) studied the beta cluster in Europe. They found small amounts in Southern Italy, but also traces in Cantabria, Portugal and Galicia, with Cantabria having the highest level in Europe in their study, at 3.1% (5 out of 161 people).


Haplogroup E1a also has been found in samples obtained from Moroccan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morocco) Berbers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people) , Sahrawis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sahrawi_people) , Burkina Faso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burkina_Faso) (including E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Rimaibe&action=edit&redlink=1) [1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), northern Cameroon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cameroon) (including E1a1-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), Senegal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Senegal) (7/139 = 5.0%[6] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Semino2002-5) ), Ghana (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ghana) (1/29 = 3% Ga (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ga_people) , 1/32 = 3% Fante (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fante_people) [2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) ), Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sudan) (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hausa_people) and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) [4] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Hassan2008-3) ), Egypt (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egypt) ,[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) [7] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Luis2004-6) Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria) (including both Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Italian_people) and Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) inhabitants of the region), Italians from Trentino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trentino) in northeastern Italy,[8] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Battaglia2008-7) and Romanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_people) from Constanţa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Constan%C5%A3a) .[9] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Bosch2006-8)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
In (B-5) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, M33 found in 3% of men of n.e. Italy, but none found in most east European counties or among Georgians, Ukrainians, or Balkarians of n.w. Caucasus Mtns. In (A-6) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, small % M33 found n. Portugal but not rest of Iberia. Likewise small % M33 found in Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia, with a little more among Saharawi of western Sahara.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop worrying so much about Spain and start worrying about northern Italy.

zanipolo
04-07-11, 13:14
Haplogroup E1a also has been found in samples obtained from Moroccan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morocco) Berbers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people) , Sahrawis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sahrawi_people) , Burkina Faso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burkina_Faso) (including E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Rimaibe&action=edit&redlink=1) [1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), northern Cameroon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cameroon) (including E1a1-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), Senegal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Senegal) (7/139 = 5.0%[6] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Semino2002-5) ), Ghana (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ghana) (1/29 = 3% Ga (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ga_people) , 1/32 = 3% Fante (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fante_people) [2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) ), Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sudan) (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hausa_people) and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) [4] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Hassan2008-3) ), Egypt (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egypt) ,[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) [7] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Luis2004-6) Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria) (including both Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Italian_people) and Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) inhabitants of the region), Italians from Trentino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trentino) in northeastern Italy,[8] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Battaglia2008-7) and Romanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_people) from Constanţa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Constan%C5%A3a) .[9] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Bosch2006-8)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
In (B-5) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, M33 found in 3% of men of n.e. Italy, but none found in most east European counties or among Georgians, Ukrainians, or Balkarians of n.w. Caucasus Mtns. In (A-6) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, small % M33 found n. Portugal but not rest of Iberia. Likewise small % M33 found in Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia, with a little more among Saharawi of western Sahara.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop worrying so much about Spain and start worrying about northern Italy.




Latest I have of north italy ( only of veneto and friuli and NOT trentino ) , percentages rounded, is

R1b1b2 = 44
T = 22
I2a2a = 12
G2a3b1b1 = 10
R1a = 7
J2 = 2
E1b1b1a ( E-v13) = 2
N1c1 = 1


trentino was mostly tyrolese in the Middle ages, raetian in the ancient times and Italian recently

Ferreiro_
04-07-11, 13:47
In this link you can obtein a good approach to the percentages of ethnic groups. But not specify different subclades of E1b1b, particularly E-M78 (main subclade in Italy and Balkans) and E-M81 (main subclade in Iberian Peninsula).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Ferreiro_
04-07-11, 13:53
In this link you can obtein a good approach to the percentages of ethnic groups. But not specify different subclades of E1b1b, particularly E-M78 (main subclade in Italy and Balkans) and E-M81 (main subclade in Iberian Peninsula).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

In that link, Pasiegos (Cantabria, Northern Spain) get an awesome 42.9% of Haplogroup E (56 samples), only after Peloponesian Greeks (47% and 36 samples). After that, Albanians, Macedonians and Sicilians.

Canek
04-07-11, 16:21
Excellent info as usual Ferriro, Spain is a lot of african indeed.

Alek
04-07-11, 16:38
Sad to see as some Spaniards are trying to europeanize the originally Black African haplogroup E-M81. Some Spanish nationalists like Carlitos and Knovas can not accept this fact. Carlitos is a known E1b1b1 carrier and Knovas looks like is someway linked.

According to Cruciani et al. 2004:
"It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia."

Ambrosio et al. 2010:
"Our analysis of the Y-chromosome haplogroup E in the native population of Huelva revealed a complex admixture of genetic markers from the Mediterranean space, with interesting signatures of populations from the Middle East and the Balkan Peninsula and a surprisingly low influence by Berber populations compared to other areas of the Iberian Peninsula. These particular traits can, plausibly, be explained by protohistoric and other documented historical movements against the backdrop of the Tartessian civilization, the rise and fall of the Roman Empire, and the different migrations associated with the expansion and decline of Islam during the Middle Ages. We believe that an explanation based on prehistoric movements is less plausible."


The African subclade E-M81, found in Berbers but also in Nigeriens and Spaniards, as a brother branch of other subclades found in Kenya or the Horn of Africa is carried by originally Black African people that inhabit natural borders between Africa and Eurasia that has been strongly eurasianized thanks to the absorption of autosomal genes mainly from Eurasian females. So, stop trying to paint all haplogroups of white and take a look into any aprox. 100% E1b1b1 East African tribe with low Eurasian or Khoisan mtdna frequency.

Obiously, the African physical traits found in Europe has been brought and spread by E1b1b1 carriers at some point.

Knovas
04-07-11, 17:04
First of all, North Africans are Caucasoids, not "Black Africans". You are so confused.

Second: Some people posted you sources that claimed the contrary. However, you prefered to ignore.

Third: Why don't you say anything about Dodecad or Eurogenes? According to them, North Africans have nothing to do with Iberians. Still waiting your argument.

And finally, you don't know anything about me, so stop speculating stupid things.

PD: Buffon.

Alek
04-07-11, 17:32
First of all, North Africans are Caucasoids, not "Black Africans". You are so confused.

Second: Some people posted you sources that claimed the contrary. However, you prefered to ignore.

Third: Why don't you say anything about Dodecad or Eurogenes? According to them, North Africans have nothing to do with Iberians. Still waiting your argument.

And finally, you don't know anything about me, so stop speculating stupid things.

PD: Buffon.


North Africans like other "Caucasoids" are mixed race people, learn a bit. There ain't no such thing as a Caucasoid race!!

Why I need to post nothing about these projects to post any other fact? You are hilarious. The results obtained by these projects are not incompatible with other sources, everything has its own context and these projects depends on the participants from commerical DNA tests. Spaniards show strong differences.

BTW you forgot to Doug McDonald and his reports.


PD: You are a rude savage :laughing:

Knovas
04-07-11, 17:45
You were trying to put North Africans at the same level of Sub-Saharan Africans just because some of them carry the same subclade of E, so stop fooling. Sub-Saharan Africans have nothing to do with North Africans, and the same happens between North Africans and Iberians: They don't cluster.

I've seen more Doug McDonald's reports than you could ever see in your life, and there is nothing in them claiming Spaniards are closer to North Africans. Spaniards cluster with French or Italians in some cases there, not near North Africans, so stop with your pathological lies.

You are insane...

Alek
04-07-11, 18:30
Several Iberians have North African and some have Sub-Saharian mixture! In addition, Pygmy haplogroups are found in Galicia! North Africans also have Sub-Saharian, European and Near Easterner contribution! And Sub-Saharians have Eurasian mixture! The only impassable walls are found in your mind!

Even if these populations don't cluster, there are gene flow between them and that is reported by Dr McDonald!!! North Africans fall between European and Sub-Saharian populations. Some Spaniards get high North African mixture and others do not and that is a fact!!

E1b1b1 is a branch of the E tree and is linked to the Black African people. You can still find E1b1b1 tribes fully Black "without cluster" with other Black communities.

Ferreiro_
04-07-11, 18:40
Haplogroup E1a also has been found in samples obtained from Moroccan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morocco) Berbers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people) , Sahrawis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sahrawi_people) , Burkina Faso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burkina_Faso) (including E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 2/20 = 10% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and 2/37 = 5.4% Rimaibe (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Rimaibe&action=edit&redlink=1) [1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), northern Cameroon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cameroon) (including E1a1-M44 in 9/17 = 53% Fulbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) and E1a-M33/M132(xE1a1-M44) in 3/15 = 20% Tali[1] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Cruciani2002-0) ), Senegal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Senegal) (7/139 = 5.0%[6] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Semino2002-5) ), Ghana (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ghana) (1/29 = 3% Ga (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ga_people) , 1/32 = 3% Fante (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fante_people) [2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) ), Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sudan) (including 5/32 = 15.6% Hausa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hausa_people) and 3/26 = 11.5% Fulani (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Fula_people) [4] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Hassan2008-3) ), Egypt (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egypt) ,[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Wood2005-1) [7] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Luis2004-6) Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria) (including both Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Italian_people) and Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) inhabitants of the region), Italians from Trentino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trentino) in northeastern Italy,[8] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Battaglia2008-7) and Romanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_people) from Constanţa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Constan%C5%A3a) .[9] (http://www.eupedia.com/l%20cite_note-Bosch2006-8)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
In (B-5) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, M33 found in 3% of men of n.e. Italy, but none found in most east European counties or among Georgians, Ukrainians, or Balkarians of n.w. Caucasus Mtns. In (A-6) tho not testing for M33 subgrps, small % M33 found n. Portugal but not rest of Iberia. Likewise small % M33 found in Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia, with a little more among Saharawi of western Sahara.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop worrying so much about Spain and start worrying about northern Italy.




Thanks for the data.

Ferreiro_
04-07-11, 18:43
All humans are descendants from dark-skinned Africans. There are People who still have not heard of it.

Knovas
04-07-11, 18:47
North African genes in Iberians are too low to cluster with them, even those you claim as more "North African-Iberians", are so far away from North Africans. What's the problem with you? you can't understand that this contacts are not relevant to put Iberians at the same level of North africans? Are you dumb? or what?

It's funny, because you recognize in the last paragraph that a haplogroup does not necesarly mean a significant connection with a group of the same subclade. This was what people were telling you all the time, and now, you seem to understand but only for what you are interested in. Like this black people who don't cluster with other black Africans, Iberians don't cluster with North Africans.

NO SIGNIFICANT CONNECTION.

Is it clear for for you? Get some help.

Cambrius (The Red)
04-07-11, 20:22
Has this forum been invaded by delusional afrocentrists?

Cambrius (The Red)
04-07-11, 20:31
Several Iberians have North African and some have Sub-Saharian mixture! In addition, Pygmy haplogroups are found in Galicia! North Africans also have Sub-Saharian, European and Near Easterner contribution! And Sub-Saharians have Eurasian mixture! The only impassable walls are found in your mind!

Even if these populations don't cluster, there are gene flow between them and that is reported by Dr McDonald!!! North Africans fall between European and Sub-Saharian populations. Some Spaniards get high North African mixture and others do not and that is a fact!!

E1b1b1 is a branch of the E tree and is linked to the Black African people. You can still find E1b1b1 tribes fully Black "without cluster" with other Black communities.

The gene flow between Iberians and African populations has never reached any level of significance. There is no meaningful autosomal relationship between Africans and Iberian peoples, or any other traditional European population group for that matter.

Carlitos
04-07-11, 22:36
Alek
Sad to see as some Spaniards are trying to europeanize the originally Black African haplogroup E-M81. Some Spanish nationalists like Carlitos and Knovas can not accept this fact. Carlitos is a known E1b1b1 carrier and Knovas looks like is someway linked.

Oh yes, my haplogroup Y DNA is E1b1b1a3 V22 + is attributed to the Canaanites, a branch of M 78. In the E haplogroup project can not yet say with certainty some information, as genetic studies are still in diapers, is years of study to provide accurate news, so much information that can be read in any forum are nothing more cabal.

I love being a V22, but I hear conflicting things about the origin of the mutation, some say it originated in northern Syria and I've also read that in northern Egypt, as I said is years of study.

If I remember correctly the V22 in Spain is 0.28%.

Ferreiro_
14-07-11, 14:32
According eupidia, the percentages of haplogroup E in Europe are:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Spain 7%
Andalucia 10%
Cantabria 11%
Galicia 22%

Countries with higher frequency of E are:

Albania 27%
Cyprus 20%
Greece 27%
Macedonia 23%
Serbia 20%

Eupidia not clarify the different subclades of E, but most of E found in the Iberian peninsula belongs to the M-81. In the Balkans is almost all M-78.

The biggest flaw that I see the list of Eupidia is that it does not explain the size of the samples.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-07-11, 14:44
According eupidia, the percentages of haplogroup E in Europe are:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Spain 7%
Andalucia 10%
Cantabria 11%
Galicia 22%

Countries with higher frequency of E are:

Albania 27%
Cyprus 20%
Greece 27%
Macedonia 23%
Serbia 20%

Eupidia not clarify the different subclades of E, but most of E found in the Iberian peninsula belongs to the M-81. In the Balkans is almost all M-78.

The biggest flaw that I see the list of Eupidia is that it does not explain the size of the samples.

They are averages based on accumulated, peer reviewed research. You can access all the reference material on Eupedia, including sample size.

Ferreiro_
14-07-11, 15:32
Basque people are rare.
Accordingly to Eupedia, only 1% of haplogroup E between them. Versus 11% in Cantabria, 22% in Galicia and 10% in Andalucia.

Ferreiro_
14-07-11, 15:39
Basque people are rare.
Accordingly to Eupedia, only 1% of haplogroup E between them. Versus 11% in Cantabria, 22% in Galicia and 10% in Andalucia.

Accordingly the recopilation of data in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Semino, A; Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P, Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae M, Mika A, Mika B, Primorac D, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA (2000). "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic *** sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf) (PDF). Science 290 (5494): 1155–59. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1126/science.290.5494.1155 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1126%2Fscience.290.5494.1155). PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 11073453 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11073453). http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf.


Basque people only 2.2% of haplogroup E. Versus 10% in all Spain, 11% in Valencia and 42.9% in Valle del Pas (Cantabria).

Canek
14-07-11, 15:40
Thanks for the info Ferreiro and Alek. :good_job:

Carlitos
14-07-11, 15:53
Map made ​​with more than 6000 samples.

sparkey
14-07-11, 17:29
Accordingly the recopilation of data in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Semino, A; Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P, Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae M, Mika A, Mika B, Primorac D, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA (2000). "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic *** sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf) (PDF). Science 290 (5494): 1155–59. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1126/science.290.5494.1155 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1126%2Fscience.290.5494.1155). PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 11073453 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11073453). http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf.


Basque people only 2.2% of haplogroup E. Versus 10% in all Spain, 11% in Valencia and 42.9% in Valle del Pas (Cantabria).

That Semino, et al paper is almost painful to read nowadays, seeing how they jump to conclusions like this:


This observation suggests that M173 is an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe and diffused from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago (16, 17), spreading the Aurignac culture.Whoops... we now know that M173 is an ancient Asian marker that may not have reached Western Europe until the Bronze Age. But that said, their population tables look excellent.

I tend to think of the Basques as a case of genetic drift due to an isolated population, especially if we assume that their culture has been in Europe since before R1b. Because if that's the case, then they could have theoretically had a lot of Haplogroup E (or Haplogroup I, or G, or whatever) in the Neolithic, before it was displaced by admixture with migrating R1b and subsequent genetic drift. The other possibility is that the Basque culture came with their particular segment of R1b (M153), which just happened to be non-IE while their relatives weren't. Then, the relative lack of Haplogroup E in Basques could be explained as being due to admixing less with native E... oddly making Basques in some way less anciently European than other Spaniards (although I concede that their subclade of R1b likely showed up a little earlier in Western Europe).

archaiocapilos
14-07-11, 18:57
Countries with higher frequency of E are:

Albania 27%
Cyprus 20%
Greece 27%
Macedonia 23%
Serbia 20%

Eupidia not clarify the different subclades of E, but most of E found in the Iberian peninsula belongs to the M-81. In the Balkans is almost all M-78.

The biggest flaw that I see the list of Eupidia is that it does not explain the size of the samples.
Actually Greeks score around 24% if we don't count Cretans (if Cretans are included Greeks are around 21%). Maciamo uses only 2 or 3 studies of Greeks while my numbers are from all papers availlable. In fact Greek Y-DNA is a little different then what Eupedia says:
R1b : 16 % (not 12%)
R1a : 12 %
I : 16 %
E1b : 24 % (not 27%)
G2a : 6 %
J2 :19 % (not 25%)
J1 : 3 %
T+L : 3 %
* : 1 %

Drac
15-07-11, 09:27
Accordingly the recopilation of data in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Semino, A; Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P, Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae M, Mika A, Mika B, Primorac D, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA (2000). "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic *** sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf) (PDF). Science 290 (5494): 1155–59. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1126/science.290.5494.1155 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1126%2Fscience.290.5494.1155). PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 11073453 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11073453). http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf.


Basque people only 2.2% of haplogroup E. Versus 10% in all Spain, 11% in Valencia and 42.9% in Valle del Pas (Cantabria).

Look at figure 3 on page 1158. Look where even Andalusians cluster and now look at Calabrians. Nice way of shooting yourself in the foot... again!

zanipolo
15-07-11, 09:30
I want to know about E3b1 if its solely exclusive to the adriatic area.

Ferreiro_
16-07-11, 12:50
I want to know about E3b1 if its solely exclusive to the adriatic area.

I don't know anything about E3b1 in Adriatic area, but I'll search for it.

Ferreiro_
16-07-11, 12:53
According to scientific studies of flowers (2005), beleza (2006) and Capelli (2009), 18% of individuals in western Andalucia, SW of Spain, belong to haplogroup E, subclade M-81. This haplogroup is also the majority, as you all know, in Morocco and Algeria. The scientific conclusion is simple: 1 in 5 people in cities like Seville and Cadiz share the same haplogroup that the typical residents of Rabat, Casablanca or Algiers.

The New Fantastic 4 will attack me, but it is not my assertion, science says it:

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 18% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

zanipolo
16-07-11, 13:28
According to scientific studies of flowers (2005), beleza (2006) and Capelli (2009), 18% of individuals in western Andalucia, SW of Spain, belong to haplogroup E, subclade M-81. This haplogroup is also the majority, as you all know, in Morocco and Algeria. The scientific conclusion is simple: 1 in 5 people in cities like Seville and Cadiz share the same haplogroup that the typical residents of Rabat, Casablanca or Algiers.

The New Fantastic 4 will attack me, but it is not my assertion, science says it:

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Spain%29), 18% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_%28historical_region%29) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA))


is there M-26 in Spain, notably the valencia, catalonia , roussilon area?

Knovas
16-07-11, 13:35
Sometimes he wants to understand that haplogroups have nothing to do with phenotype, and sometimes not. It's the problem of having an agenda.

Drac
17-07-11, 08:28
According to scientific studies of flowers (2005), beleza (2006) and Capelli (2009), 18% of individuals in western Andalucia, SW of Spain, belong to haplogroup E, subclade M-81. This haplogroup is also the majority, as you all know, in Morocco and Algeria. The scientific conclusion is simple: 1 in 5 people in cities like Seville and Cadiz share the same haplogroup that the typical residents of Rabat, Casablanca or Algiers.

The New Fantastic 4 will attack me, but it is not my assertion, science says it:

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 18% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)


Nice try, New Pinocchio, but I can easily tell that you altered the frequency of that haplogroup in Western Andalusia from 10% in the original Wiki article to 18% in your dishonest edit of June 27, 2011 (yes, I know that you are "Galician77", the anti-Spanish Wiki Vandal):

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)&diff=438901867&oldid=436450507

You also changed it for Galicia, from 9 to 12%.

Keep trying, New Pinocchio. Your nose keeps getting bigger

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg

Carlitos
17-07-11, 15:50
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/285250_10150245224153547_649903546_7655364_5160668 _n.jpg

This map would be based on 6000 samples.

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 20:15
In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), best genetic study Grey Moss says, 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía.
Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).

The complete link (page 6)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00221.x/pdf)

Knovas
17-07-11, 20:31
So, ¿what are you trying to say with this? ¿perhaps that Iberians are a lot African? ¿why do you repeat this all time?

Realise that for much you repeat and repeat, Iberians will NEVER be closer to North Africans. You are about to become a parrot, and you are proving nothing but your drollery.

Assume the truth.

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 20:38
In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), best genetic study Grey Moss says, 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía.
Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).

The complete link (page 6)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00221.x/pdf)


The overall, according Beleza genetic research of 2006, in Lisbon (region), the most populated in Portugal, gets 14.5% of haplogroup E, Alentejo (region) gets 19.9% of haplogroup E. Very near rate in Western Andalucia, 18%, according the other link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)


<LI id=cite_note-34>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-34) Flores et al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFFlores_et_al.2005)) <LI id=cite_note-35>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-35) Beleza et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFBeleza_et_al.2006)) <LI id=cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36>^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009_36-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009_36-1) Capelli et al. (2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCapelli_et_al.2009))
^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-MacaMeyer2003_37-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-MacaMeyer2003_37-1) Maca-Meyer N., Sánchez-Velasco P., Flores C. et al., Larruga JM, González AM, Oterino A, Leyva-Cobián F (2003), "Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Characterization of Pasiegos, a Human Isolate from Cantabria (Spain)", Annals of Human Genetics 67 (Pt 4): 329–339, doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00045.x (http://dx.doi.org/10.1046%2Fj.1469-1809.2003.00045.x), PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 12914567 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914567).

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 20:55
They are scientific data and I'm not the scientist in charge of the study.
They hate me because I divulge these data. If they could, these data would be kept secret. The Inquisition has returned to Spain.

Knovas
17-07-11, 21:07
You changed most of this data, Drac discovered you, so stop with the childish behaviour. Haplogroup E in Iberia is not a secret, and nobody cares about this like you do. Sorry man, singing the same song everyday wouldn't make Spaniards as African as you like. It just makes you a total jackass.

Carlitos
17-07-11, 21:28
In a few decades it will be possible to know with certainty the origin of the Iberians, be which is it does not change the fact that Spain is an European country, nobody questions any other country of europa, it is not necessary to do too much I marry those who on antiquated information try of surreptitious form to meet an equivocal and provocative message.

Enough it is they who have in spite of having the look that they have and chasing fruitlessly the ideal racial one.

archaiocapilos
17-07-11, 21:32
You changed most of this data, Drac discovered you, so stop with the childish behaviour. Haplogroup E in Iberia is not a secret, and nobody cares about this like you do. Sorry man, singing the same song everyday wouldn't make Spaniards as African as you like. It just makes you a total jackass.
Iberians should stop feeding the t-r-o-l-l

Carlitos
17-07-11, 21:36
^^

It is easy to say it when it is not the country of one.

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 21:39
I want to know about E3b1 if its solely exclusive to the adriatic area.


See here distribution and frequency of the different subclades

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7976/eeuropa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/121/eeuropa.jpg/)

Knovas
17-07-11, 21:53
Remain in silence in front of this barbarities is not the solution. Solution is definetly ban the t.r.o.l.l., but it seems this is not posible...

Well then, I'll not give him the pleasure to fool without consequences.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-07-11, 22:01
In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), best genetic study Grey Moss says, 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía.
Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).

The complete link (page 6)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00221.x/pdf)


I guess you ignored my previous post about I (Y-DNA) in Portugal. You keep harping on levels of E in Iberia but ignore regions with high levels of I, which is much more common in Northern European populations. The Braga region alone is almost 18% I.

In any case, haplogroup frequencies do not govern phenotype. Game over, charlatan.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-07-11, 22:02
See here distribution and frequency of the different subclades

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7976/eeuropa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/121/eeuropa.jpg/)

He's like a brainless parrot. He just keep posting the same material over and over and over again. A sign of mental illness?

Cambrius (The Red)
17-07-11, 22:42
See here distribution and frequency of the different subclades

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7976/eeuropa.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/121/eeuropa.jpg/)

Hey little man, don't you know that there is N African mt-DNA in the Sami of Scandinavia. The Berber mt-DNA subclade U-5 has been found regularly in the Sami of Finland and Norway Look up the research.

Remember, most geneticists believe that Berber haplogroups in Iberia and the rest of Western Europe are ancient (Meslothic / Neolithic periods). Pack it in guy, you are looking worse and worse by the day.

Drac
18-07-11, 11:14
The overall, according Beleza genetic research of 2006, in Lisbon (region), the most populated in Portugal, gets 14.5% of haplogroup E, Alentejo (region) gets 19.9% of haplogroup E. Very near rate in Western Andalucia, 18%, according the other link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)


<LI id=cite_note-34>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-34) Flores et al. (2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFFlores_et_al.2005)) <LI id=cite_note-35>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-35) Beleza et al. (2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFBeleza_et_al.2006)) <LI id=cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36>^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009_36-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009_36-1) Capelli et al. (2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFCapelli_et_al.2009))
^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-MacaMeyer2003_37-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_ref-MacaMeyer2003_37-1) Maca-Meyer N., Sánchez-Velasco P., Flores C. et al., Larruga JM, González AM, Oterino A, Leyva-Cobián F (2003), "Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Characterization of Pasiegos, a Human Isolate from Cantabria (Spain)", Annals of Human Genetics 67 (Pt 4): 329–339, doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00045.x (http://dx.doi.org/10.1046%2Fj.1469-1809.2003.00045.x), PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 12914567 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914567).



New Pinocchio, we've been over this lie before. You got caught red-handed altering a WikiPedia article. The only reason it says "18%" is because YOU put it there with your "Galician77" Vandal account, no one else. None of the studies you keep stupidly referring to say any such thing. Even for just this single act of malicious dishonesty, you should be banned (but I am sure the moderators will keep on tolerating your very obvious t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g for reasons only known to them.)

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 00:13
^^

It is easy to say it when it is not the country of one.
But my country has more E1b1b than yours, Ferreiro would classify Greeks as Africans.....who cares?

Carlitos
19-07-11, 00:33
But my country has more E1b1b than yours, Ferreiro would classify Greeks as Africans.....who cares?

It is a historical question, culture and religious, more than of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, y others.
Greece Africa?, nobody in Spain thinks that, it can already have everything E that it has.
I met a geneticist of a Catalan university and asked him wherefrom the Iberians were coming and he said to me than of Africa, of the Atlas at least.
Does he believe that to R of Africa they say to them that they are European?

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 01:36
It is a historical question, culture and religious, more than of A, B, C, D, E, F, G, y others.
Greece Africa?, nobody in Spain thinks that, it can already have everything E that it has.
I met a geneticist of a Catalan university and asked him wherefrom the Iberians were coming and he said to me than of Africa, of the Atlas at least.
Does he believe that to R of Africa they say to them that they are European?
I don't know if anyone in Spain thinks like that but Ferreiro clearly does so...and I as a Greek don't give a damn about it.

Ferreiro_
19-07-11, 02:12
All humans are descended from Africans. I'm surprised there are people participating in a science forum and still they have not understood it.

Carlitos
19-07-11, 02:14
I don't know if anyone in Spain thinks like that but Ferreiro clearly does so...and I as a Greek don't give a damn about it.


I am not sure completely that it is Spanish, it might be, but also it is possible that he is a South American immigrant.
It is an exception, the people of Spain are not like that. Good are the nordicistas, many groups Nazi, who are in any part of the world, but they are minorities that learn something that they have heard they decide to believe in that and live embittered through all his life.

In the fund I am sure that he prefers the boys of the Mediterranean countries.

Ferreiro_
19-07-11, 02:16
New Pinocchio, we've been over this lie before. You got caught red-handed altering a WikiPedia article. The only reason it says "18%" is because YOU put it there with your "Galician77" Vandal account, no one else. None of the studies you keep stupidly referring to say any such thing. Even for just this single act of malicious dishonesty, you should be banned (but I am sure the moderators will keep on tolerating your very obvious t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g for reasons only known to them.)

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg

I have not laughed so hard since I was in high school.

Ferreiro_
19-07-11, 02:22
I am not sure completely that it is Spanish, it might be, but also it is possible that he is a South American immigrant.
It is an exception, the people of Spain are not like that. Good are the nordicistas, many groups Nazi, who are in any part of the world, but they are minorities that learn something that they have heard they decide to believe in that and live embittered through all his life.

In the fund I am sure that he prefers the boys of the Mediterranean countries.

I don't take it as an insult because I do not think that being gay is something to be ashamed of. But how pathetic is that someone who is gay intended to insult to another people by "calling" him gay. How low you're falling, Carlitos.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 03:16
But my country has more E1b1b than yours, Ferreiro would classify Greeks as Africans.....who cares?

He's not a real Spaniard. He's trying to project Spaniards as something they are not. A great distorter of facts.

iapetoc
19-07-11, 04:29
so according to some the E Y-DNA in Bellarus I dont know how old is, probably is from?
since some belive that all E in SPain came with Arab invasion,
the E in Bellarus where did it came from?
hmmmmm
let me see, yes I found it it is modern from ww2 the committee allowed Africans to migrate there and live?
correct?

it is another story where survived a Haplogroup during Ice ages, or where it grow, and another classify people according origin of 1rst form of Haplogroup,

Yes E Ydna has its origin in Africa, but that does not mean after 4000 that it is still african and the carriers are just copy paste,

after 4000 how many mutations happened to DNA, and not only Y-DNA,
130- 180 generations of how many kids each, and how much mixed? wow are we nuts?
in modern world, and some families after 400 years claim Nativity,

if someone do accept them ok, but after a number of generations and poor mix (not wide spread) at least they earn the right of Iberians if not spagnards,

on the other hand what makes a R1 more European than J or E or some N in Finnic
offcourse a new comer today in Europe is not European even if IDentity card say so,
but an older one before 1000 or 2000 or 4-5000 years why is not?

we wanted or Not there enough European E Y-dna from prehistoric times that helped in building of Europe,

Drac
19-07-11, 08:46
I have not laughed so hard since I was in high school.

You find being publicly exposed and humiliated as a dishonest Wiki Vandal with a transparent agenda "funny"? Now that's funny! Had you any shame whatsoever you would have quit the forum on your own by now.

Knovas
19-07-11, 10:12
The most part of haplogroup E is in Europe since thousands of years, Iberia included. Being repeating all day the presence of E in a country, does not change the fact that this population shows a typical European admixture. We know perfectly where haplogroup E can be found and what clades, and there is nothing terrible to discover. The only evidence is the obvious manipulation using haplogroups, wich prove absolutly nothing.

Be reasonable.

Carlitos
19-07-11, 15:08
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Carlitos http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=376090#post376090)
I am not sure completely that it is Spanish, it might be, but also it is possible that he is a South American immigrant.
It is an exception, the people of Spain are not like that. Good are the nordicistas, many groups Nazi, who are in any part of the world, but they are minorities that learn something that they have heard they decide to believe in that and live embittered through all his life.

In the fund I am sure that he prefers the boys of the Mediterranean countries.


I don't take it as an insult because I do not think that being gay is something to be ashamed of. But how pathetic is that someone who is gay intended to insult to another people by "calling" him gay. How low you're falling, Carlitos.

Where is the insult? do not I see it on any part.

Ferreiro_
19-07-11, 17:43
Let's make a summary so far. I focus now on the Iberian peninsula, which is what interests me most. However if someone wants to contribute with data from their respective countries, are welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA) (specifically E-M81)

Valle del Pas (Cantabria) 18-41%
Western Andalucia 18%
NW of Leon 18%
Cantabria 9-17%
Galicia 9%
Extremadura 8%
South of Portugal 8%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups (haplogroup E)

Spain (overall) 10%
Ibiza 7.4%
Majorca 6.2%
Minorca 18.9%
Spanish South 9%
Valencia 11%
Portuguese South 17%
Portuguese North 11%
Catalonia 6.1%
Valle del Pas (Cantabria) 42.9%
Basque 2.2%


Eupedia (haplogroup E)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Spain (overall) 7%
Andalucia 10%
Basques 1%
Cantabria 11%
Galicia 22%


If anyone knows more details, please share them with us.

Knovas
19-07-11, 17:48
Let's make a summary so far. I focus now on the Iberian peninsula, which is what interests me most.
It's good you recognize your obsession. First step before therapy, congratulations.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 18:39
Let's make a summary so far. I focus now on the Iberian peninsula, which is what interests me most. However if someone wants to contribute with data from their respective countries, are welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA) (specifically E-M81)

Valle del Pas (Cantabria) 18-41%
Western Andalucia 18%
NW of Leon 18%
Cantabria 9-17%
Galicia 9%
Extremadura 8%
South of Portugal 8%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups (haplogroup E)

Spain (overall) 10%
Ibiza 7.4%
Majorca 6.2%
Minorca 18.9%
Spanish South 9%
Valencia 11%
Portuguese South 17%
Portuguese North 11%
Catalonia 6.1%
Valle del Pas (Cantabria) 42.9%
Basque 2.2%


Eupedia (haplogroup E)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Spain (overall) 7%
Andalucia 10%
Basques 1%
Cantabria 11%
Galicia 22%


If anyone knows more details, please share them with us.

...and the AUTOSOMAL results (the only thing that's important concerning phenotype) are?:laughing:

Man, you are in serous, serious shape. Don't you have something better to do than spews lies and framed information?

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 22:47
Let's not get fooled by this clown. Spain has received one of the least neolithic influence in all of Europe, it has low levels of haplogroup E, and for a southern country is extremely low (just look at Italy or Greece). Now, the specific north-african subclade E-M81 has been found also in France at a 3% frequency (Cruciani et al. 2004) whereas Andalusia shows 1.6%, you have Auvergne with 5%. Also the North-African mtDNA U6 has been found in Finisre, Brittany (France) at 4.5% (Dubut et al. 2004)

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 23:20
Let's not get fooled by this clown. Spain has received one of the least neolithic influence in all of Europe, it has low levels of haplogroup E, and for a southern country is extremely low (just look at Italy or Greece). Now, the specific north-african subclade E-M81 has been found also in France at a 3% frequency (Cruciani et al. 2004) whereas Andalusia shows 1.6%, you have Auvergne with 5%. Also the North-African mtDNA U6 has been found in Finis�re, Brittany (France) at 4.5% (Dubut et al. 2004)

Also, N. African mtDNA (U-5) has been found in the Sami of Norway and Finland. The faux Gellego charlatan still does not understand (or refuses to understand) that only autosomal DNA determines phenotype. Quite, quite sad.

Knovas
19-07-11, 23:22
You mean plain U5 or U6?

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 23:25
You mean plain U5 or U6?

The North African mt-DNA subclade found in Sami populations is U-5, according to the research. See Achilli et al. (2005).

Knovas
19-07-11, 23:29
Aha ok, it's possible since it's an ancient one. I asked because the most common related clade is U6.

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 23:38
In the very recent study of Garcia et al. 2011, for France :

mtDNA U6

U6a1/a2/a3 Perigord-Limousin (Limousin) 1.4 %
Finistre (Brittany) 0.7 %
U6a France Miscellanea 0.6 %

Drac
20-07-11, 10:55
Let's make a summary so far...

Western Andalucia 18%

Let's show again how that false "18%" got into that Wiki article:


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)&diff=438901867&oldid=436450507

Before Pinocchio's vandalism:

Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 10% in Western [[Andalusia]]

After Pinocchio's vandalism:

Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 18% in Western [[Andalusia]]

Oh my, it is there not from any of the studies he keeps referring to but because our good ol' friend Pinocchio put it there with his "Galician77" vandal account. I guess you should have looked into WikiPedia's workings a bit better before trying such tricks, clown. All changes to an article are recorded.

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg


I focus now on the Iberian peninsula, which is what interests me most. However if someone wants to contribute with data from their respective countries, are welcome.

You should stop worrying so much about a country that is obviously not yours and focus on your real ancestral land. And Eupedia has "pooled" the pertinent data on it from several genetic studies:

Italy (as a whole): 11%

North Italy: 11%

Central Italy: 10%

South Italy: 18%

Sicily: 17.5%

zanipolo
20-07-11, 11:25
You should stop worrying so much about a country that is obviously not yours and focus on your real ancestral land. And Eupedia has "pooled" the pertinent data on it from several genetic studies:

Italy (as a whole): 11%

North Italy: 11%

Central Italy: 10%

South Italy: 18%

Sicily: 17.5%



what figures are these from

Drac
20-07-11, 11:54
what figures are these from

E1b1b frequencies, from this table:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

zanipolo
20-07-11, 12:09
E1b1b frequencies, from this table:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

thank you.

Is there a huge difference between the catalans and the castilians for E ( or any other marker ?)

Drac
20-07-11, 13:15
thank you.

Is there a huge difference between the catalans and the castilians for E ( or any other marker ?)

It seems to be lower in Catalonia than in Castile. Frequencies vary from study to study (one study for example found 0 among Catalonians, yet another one found 6.1%)

Knovas
20-07-11, 13:40
Probably Catalunya has increased the average due specially to the Andalusian inmigrants in the last 50 years. Without this, the E % would be insignificant.

Carlitos
20-07-11, 15:22
Probably Catalunya has increased the average due specially to the Andalusian inmigrants in the last 50 years. Without this, the E % would be insignificant.

In Catalonia there are emigrants of the whole Spain. I believe that in the genetic studies that do to a region it is born in mind that the native ones to which it goes away to realize the test take in the zone a considerable time. Because if at present the genetic studies bore Spain in mind to the Moroccan immigration the M-81 in Spain it would rise for the clouds.

Wilhelm
20-07-11, 16:32
Let's make a summary so far. I focus now on the Iberian peninsula, which is what interests me most. However if someone wants to contribute with data from their respective countries, are welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA)) (specifically E-M81)

Valle del Pas (Cantabria) 18-41%
Western Andalucia 18%
NW of Leon 18%
Cantabria 9-17%
Galicia 9%
Extremadura 8%
South of Portugal 8%
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can write there. Try to find peer reviewed studies. You have Andalusia wrong. In the study of Cruciani et al. 2004 they found 1.6 % of E-M81 in Andalusians


Eupedia (haplogroup E)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Spain (overall) 7%
Andalucia 10%
Basques 1%
Cantabria 11%
Galicia 22%


If anyone knows more details, please share them with us.Yes, I do have more details, these are the countries in Europe with equal or more total haplogroup E than Spain :

Albania, Austria, Belarus, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Cyprus, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Macedonia, Portugal, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine

iapetoc
20-07-11, 17:22
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can write there. Try to find peer reviewed studies. You have Andalusia wrong. In the study of Cruciani et al. 2004 they found 1.6 % of E-M81 in Andalusians

Yes, I do have more details, these are the countries in Europe with equal or more total haplogroup E than Spain :

Albania, Austria, Belarus, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Cyprus, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Macedonia, Portugal, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine

why ? MAKEDONIA IS NOT GREECE?

Knovas
20-07-11, 17:23
I know what you mean Carlitos. We cannot be sure about the samples used by the different sources to show haplogroup E in Catalunya. Note that today, it's quite difficult to find people in Catalunya with four grandparents who can be considered ethnic Catalans. The influence from other parts of the Peninsula and, specially Andalusia (there are reports about this during Franco's goverment saying that it was significant), makes difficult to pick good samples for this.

For example in my case, I'm ethnic Catalan in 3 sides (going back hundreds of years, not a joke), and my paternal grandfather was from Murcia. Comparing this with the vast majority of people who live in Catalunya today, I have more Catalan ancestry than the rest in average. Just get and idea how the things works, and the difficulty to get adequate Catalan samples, wich I'm sure would show insignificant levels of haplogroup E.

My mother for example, would be a very good Catalan example since I traced her line and appears 100% Catalan going deep in time. I'm thinking in test her one day too, like I did myself, and see what the results show. Of course I won't get information about her paternal line, my primarly interest is admixture analysis.

Wilhelm
20-07-11, 17:33
In this website (http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html) Catalonia has a total of 3% E, which is extremely low, is the same level as Estonia or Denmark

Knovas
20-07-11, 17:45
Yes, very low, and without knowing the real Catalan ancestry, wich I'm sure just a few of them would be ethnic Catalans on 4 sides.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-07-11, 18:20
Let's show again how that false "18%" got into that Wiki article:


http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)&diff=438901867&oldid=436450507

Before Pinocchio's vandalism:

Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 10% in Western [[Andalusia]]

After Pinocchio's vandalism:

Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 18% in Western [[Andalusia]]

Oh my, it is there not from any of the studies he keeps referring to but because our good ol' friend Pinocchio put it there with his "Galician77" vandal account. I guess you should have looked into WikiPedia's workings a bit better before trying such tricks, clown. All changes to an article are recorded.

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg



You should stop worrying so much about a country that is obviously not yours and focus on your real ancestral land. And Eupedia has "pooled" the pertinent data on it from several genetic studies:

Italy (as a whole): 11%

North Italy: 11%

Central Italy: 10%

South Italy: 18%

Sicily: 17.5%



Obviously, Pinocchio II is a pathological liar. A malicious fraudster.

Knovas
20-07-11, 18:49
He will enjoy with all these reports. I can imagine the scene...

5037

Cambrius (The Red)
20-07-11, 18:56
He will enjoy with all these reports. I can imagine the scene...

5037


I'm sure the charlatan will respond by posting more pictures of gypsies, saying they are typical Spaniards.:laughing:

Wilhelm
20-07-11, 19:10
I guess you ignored my previous post about I (Y-DNA) in Portugal. You keep harping on levels of E in Iberia but ignore regions with high levels of I, which is much more common in Northern European populations. The Braga region alone is almost 18% I.

In any case, haplogroup frequencies do not govern phenotype. Game over, charlatan.
Some areas of Castille (close to South Aragon) have reported 30% if haplogroup I,


New Pinocchio, we've been over this lie before. You got caught red-handed altering a WikiPedia article. The only reason it says "18%" is because YOU put it there with your "Galician77" Vandal account, no one else. None of the studies you keep stupidly referring to say any such thing. Even for just this single act of malicious dishonesty, you should be banned (but I am sure the moderators will keep on tolerating your very obvious t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g for reasons only known to them.)

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg
That's why Wikipedia genetic articles are so crap, because any crackpot like this can go there and manipulate. It's full of afrocentrists, nordicists and anti-spaniards. Clowns.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-07-11, 22:34
Some areas of Castille (close to South Aragon) have reported 30% if haplogroup I,


That's why Wikipedia genetic articles are so crap, because any crackpot like this can go there and manipulate. It's full of afrocentrists, nordicists and anti-spaniards. Clowns.

Yes, I read that there is a hot-spot of I (Y-DNA) in Castilla.

The highest frequencies in Portugal are found in the Braga (about 18%) and Braganca (16%) regions. Galicia also has some high levels of I.

Carlitos
21-07-11, 00:36
I know what you mean Carlitos. We cannot be sure about the samples used by the different sources to show haplogroup E in Catalunya. Note that today, it's quite difficult to find people in Catalunya with four grandparents who can be considered ethnic Catalans. The influence from other parts of the Peninsula and, specially Andalusia (there are reports about this during Franco's goverment saying that it was significant), makes difficult to pick good samples for this.

For example in my case, I'm ethnic Catalan in 3 sides (going back hundreds of years, not a joke), and my paternal grandfather was from Murcia. Comparing this with the vast majority of people who live in Catalunya today, I have more Catalan ancestry than the rest in average. Just get and idea how the things works, and the difficulty to get adequate Catalan samples, wich I'm sure would show insignificant levels of haplogroup E.

My mother for example, would be a very good Catalan example since I traced her line and appears 100% Catalan going deep in time. I'm thinking in test her one day too, like I did myself, and see what the results show. Of course I won't get information about her paternal line, my primarly interest is admixture analysis.

If it talks each other on a study of E - M81 in Catalonia, it is of imagining that the scientists will have used samples of native persons that could demonstrate that they are native of Catalonia in generations and without genetic contributions of the emigration of the rest of Spain, probably the scientists bear that in mind to obtain accurate information.