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Mzungu mchagga
01-07-11, 20:32
How important are national/ethnic looks to you?
Use the poll above and please comment where appropriate!

Reinaert
01-07-11, 22:59
I don't care at all. I make contact very easy with people from all over the world I come across. Contacts through internet, on forums (fora) like this are much more complicated.

What interests me most is the stories that people can tell. Their talents.

It's a pity I often see a struggle between religion and freedom.
Also a struggle between political propaganda and freedom.

Well.. I like a woman with a pretty face, and a smile.
But she has to be intellectually challenging.

I am married with one like that. :rolleyes2:

Canek
02-07-11, 14:52
In latin america we do not care about the look or the ethnic of anyone, look at the president of bolivia he is native american...

we are all the same since the free from the spanish savage opressors.

Carlitos
02-07-11, 16:31
Today Latin America is more racist places in the world.

The reality of Latin American countries remained that of a mestizo, indigenous and black majority, which national identity could not be founded on the ideal of a white population. It is in this context that the ideology of mestizaje emerges as national identity in many countries, as was the case of Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico, etc.. But from the basis of a racial hierarchy in which the ideal, unattainable the majority, being white and European phenotypic traits, although socially accepted to be mestizo.


In short, the discourse of American identity is based on the complementarity of three ideas: miscegenation, discrimination and whitening. Miscegenation as the only way to the unattainable ideal of being white, always latent discrimination and denied, and bleaching as ratification of the supreme value of being white.


Therefore, Latin American racism is associated with the physical aspect, taking into account the color and appearance. But it's not racism that is expressed by a clearly differentiated target group to another non-white. It is a system of discrimination based on the relative difference of skin color and appearance, which also has the level of income and whether you're male or female. In some contexts a person can become an agent and promoter of racism in others it may be the victim, why is it so difficult to identify and recognize.

Gusar
02-07-11, 19:20
As far as I'm concerned my ethnicity has one of the broadest range of physical appearances of any ethnicity. Genetics would support this. At the same time there are a range of looks that I can easily identify as Serbian & I would say that Coons Dinaric classification dominates. Certainly I'm proud of that particular classification (tall, dark, athletic). Otherwise I'm really a big fan of diversity so I really don't place physical appearance within any range of acceptance. Values, mentality, attitude, culture, religion are all much more important.

Anton, Bear's den
03-07-11, 21:11
Cultural differences have big importance, large number of cultural differences in a society a direct way to trouble.
National & ethnic difference not so much important, i think it's good to be ethnically diverse. Ideally, to have basically monocultural society with wide mixing of minorities.

Mzungu mchagga
03-07-11, 21:51
Cultural differences have big importance, large number of cultural differences in a society a direct way to trouble.
National & ethnic difference not so much important, i think it's good to be ethnically diverse. Ideally, to have basically monocultural society with wide mixing of minorities.

How do you define "ethnicity"? Is it genetic, racial or cultural?
If you take the latter, is a mono-culture comprised of many ethnicities possible?

Anton, Bear's den
03-07-11, 23:59
How do you define "ethnicity"? Is it genetic, racial or cultural?

Genetic don't looks much important for me, especially if it is European DNA groups. R1a or R1b? LOL who cares
Tsar Nicholas II mainly had R1b DNA but was a pan-slavist. Or for example Volga Germans, for me will be almost impossible to find differences from traditional Russians. I give to genetic aspect 10% of importance.
"Racial aspect" I think it play some role when racial differences catch the eye strongly (black & white people). Each person has programmed racial (white skin people for example) preferences inside by nature, there is nothing to do with it. So it around 20% of importance.
And third, the cultural differences. I think it's the most important and give to it 70% because culture determines human lifestyle. The biggest hatred between people growing from cultural differences, so blurring of these differences and cultural assimilation is very important for the state stability and prosperity. The more differences the greater the unreliability.


If you take the latter, is a mono-culture comprised of many ethnicities possible?

America is living example, Russia is living example, Australia is living example... Absolute 100% common culture is hardly possible to create but possible to construct a common add-in like in Russia. Also need to know the sense of limit. You can not swallow more than you can digest. Americans imported slaves from sub-Saharan Africa, now they still have some problems with black population in statistics of crime. Why that so? That's because these people came in too big numbers & were too much different culturally from European culture.

iapetoc
04-07-11, 01:37
Today ethnicities is like a teutonic knight who rides Jeep not horse, drinks cola, and eats pizza,
today ethicities are like a good European mobile with a trade mark from Scand, made in Chech republic, and batteries are made in china,

Antigone
04-07-11, 05:58
There is too much importance placed on the superficial today, looks are immaterial and ethnicity is only the modern form of tribalism. Imo, diversity is a good thing and I couldn't think of anything worse than living in a homogenous society. Boring, boring, boring.

Gusar
04-07-11, 12:18
I don't understand what is so bad about ethnicity. As an anthropologist do you look at an African tribe you are studying and think these poor people, they are so poor, so unenlightened? It would be so much better if they did not speak their own language, practice their own customs etc? Do you think, now lets all just speak the same language, have the same sense of spirituality, do away with traditional customs and just join this wonderful western utopia which by the way in it self is very ethnic in an Anglo-Germanic direction (even if they don't realise it). Should we strive to avoid all ritual? Do we aim to be androids as in science fiction films? Personally I do not wish to be Germanic. As far as I'm concerned my ethnicity builds community and welcomes everyone. It's very healthy.

samantha89
04-07-11, 14:35
I don't care at all about where someone comes from or their ethnic background.

Of course, just like the next person, I think some people look better than others, and I can generalize at times - but when you meet someone face to face, those generalizations dissipater in a second.

Mzungu mchagga
04-07-11, 17:56
Genetic don't looks much important for me, especially if it is European DNA groups. R1a or R1b? LOL who cares
Tsar Nicholas II mainly had R1b DNA but was a pan-slavist. Or for example Volga Germans, for me will be almost impossible to find differences from traditional Russians. I give to genetic aspect 10% of importance.

I agree on that. BTW Tsar Nicholas didn't even know his own haplogroup. Until today there hasn't been any government which has given laws on division of populations based on DNA (yet), and I hope it'll remain so! Is somebody with haplogroup R1b excluded from being a slav? Or if his autosomal DNA clusters more with Western Europe or Central Asia?


"Racial aspect" I think it play some role when racial differences catch the eye strongly (black & white people). Each person has programmed racial (white skin people for example) preferences inside by nature, there is nothing to do with it. So it around 20% of importance.
And third, the cultural differences. I think it's the most important and give to it 70% because culture determines human lifestyle. The biggest hatred between people growing from cultural differences, so blurring of these differences and cultural assimilation is very important for the state stability and prosperity. The more differences the greater the unreliability.

Yeah, whereas "culture" is a vague concept, "race" can stigmatize people with mere looks. Although for me personally race or looks don't define an ethnicity, they fulfil stereotypical criteria which are usually associated with ethnicities, if not even very often defined with such phenotypical criteria.

Take for example a black person in the USA:
How black does he have to be in order to be called an Afro-American?
Is Afro-American a pure phenotypical term? What about the stereotype of "acting black"? What about a black American who doesn't "act black" and doesn't associate himself with black culture?

Yet it is easier in the USA to be accepted as an American, as the country is based on immigration and practically everyone can become American.

It is somewhat more difficult in the former colonial countries of Europe. A black person will have slightly more difficulties in assimilating into these countries, as he doesn't share the same history of Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Iberians etc... However, there is still a good chance of being accepted as a good Englishman, Frenchman, Spaniard as national identity is also based on confession to the British Crown and Parliament, French or Spanish Culture.

A black person will never, never, never be accepted as a Russian, as the identity of Russians is on a much higher rate based on blood-line. And an African would be too far away from that blood-line.

Germany is on an intermediate position between Western post-colonial countries and Russia. Traditional German identity is based on blood, too, but only recently in the last decades, due to high immigration, things started to turn around a little.


America is living example, Russia is living example, Australia is living example... Absolute 100% common culture is hardly possible to create but possible to construct a common add-in like in Russia. Also need to know the sense of limit. You can not swallow more than you can digest. Americans imported slaves from sub-Saharan Africa, now they still have some problems with black population in statistics of crime. Why that so? That's because these people came in too big numbers & were too much different culturally from European culture.

Would you describe the USA, Russia or Australia as mono-cultures? :thinking:
I mean you are contradicting yourself when you say that ethnicity equals culture, but on the other hand the ideal nation is a mono-culture comprised of many highly diverse ethnicities.
What do you mean with mono-culture? Is mono-culture a culture with a blend of cultures in every person (the melting-pot so to say), or is it a culture of many seperated sub-cultures (the salad-bowl)?

Anton, Bear's den
05-07-11, 11:32
Is somebody with haplogroup R1b excluded from being a slav?
If I not mistaking Slavic DNA is basically R1a. So that kinda funny, Nicholas II was panslavist but did not even genetically related to this group :laughing:.



Or if his autosomal DNA clusters more with Western Europe or Central Asia?
The European royal families often mixed with each other for the sake of political benefit, so that not surprising that Nicholas II and his family had mainly R1b DNA.


What about a black American who doesn't "act black" and doesn't associate himself with black culture?

Well, that already a assimilated man, he is not "african" anymore. But word "Afro-American" still can be used to emphasize his origin.
In general I think all newly arrived immigrants must be assimilated into the local culture. Otherwise that have not sense to import immigrants at all.


Yet it is easier in the USA to be accepted as an American, as the country is based on immigration and practically everyone can become American.
Yes, but America have not much traditional culture. I see only rich mass-commercial culture: lady Gaga, McDonalds, Pepsi, Burger King & Baseball :laughing: ...
With Canada even worse, comes to mind only maple leaf and hockey :laughing:


It is somewhat more difficult in the former colonial countries of Europe. A black person will have slightly more difficulties in assimilating into these countries, as he doesn't share the same history of Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Iberians etc... However, there is still a good chance of being accepted as a good Englishman, Frenchman, Spaniard as national identity is also based on confession to the British Crown and Parliament, French or Spanish Culture.

I think main obstacle to intergate for immigrants in European society is lack of infrastructure for "remelting" and attention for cultural "remelting" of such people (schools to learn the local language, special training courses, special system of employment for such people) + lack of such immigrant tradition policy like USA have. I also think that Europe takes the one of the worst immigrants ever, especially people from Middle East, Pakistan, Black Africa have often damaged mentality because of local wars there and have totally different cultures to be melted.


A black person will never, never, never be accepted as a Russian, as the identity of Russians is on a much higher rate based on blood-line. And an African would be too far away from that blood-line.
Black people simply very exotic in Russia, that's why they always will look "alien", Russia had not colonies in Africa. But in second-third generation descendants of that man will look like a white persons already :grin:


Germany is on an intermediate position between Western post-colonial countries and Russia. Traditional German identity is based on blood, too, but only recently in the last decades, due to high immigration, things started to turn around a little.
On the place of Germany I would tried to "Germanise" all Turks which immigrated to Germany since 60s, to fully assimilation.


Would you describe the USA, Russia or Australia as mono-cultures? I mean you are contradicting yourself when you say that ethnicity equals culture, but on the other hand the ideal nation is a mono-culture comprised of many highly diverse ethnicities. :thinking:.
No, USA, Russia and Australia is not totally mono-cultural of course, but such big countries can exist only if they have common culture as "common second floor for everyone" through unified system of education, common language for conversation etc... In America also probably play a role their "commercial" culture, basic laws of constitution; in Russia it's simply long history of coexistence and mentality probably, about Australia don't know.
I also think that need a "pivotal" nation with their "pivotal" culture 70-80% of population otherwise everything has a high chance to fall apart. In America such role had white immigrants and protestants. In Russia it's "traditional Russians" from the East European Plain. In Australia it's white prisoners from Britain I think (lol).


What do you mean with mono-culture? Is mono-culture a culture with a blend of cultures in every person (the melting-pot so to say), or is it a culture of many seperated sub-cultures (the salad-bowl).
Mono-culture is a uniform society:
standardized education
standardized language
standardized values
standardized laws
standardized code of conduct
standardized historical heroes
standardized traditions
standardized religion or lack of it
standardized ideology
standardized ...
More united things = better, but impossible to have everything united. Deviations are possible, but rod should be shared.
"Multiculturalism" have a right on existing in sense that minorities build a common culture or attached to one of "basic" nation. "Multiculturalism" where everything is different and everyone for themselves is utopia, united state simply can't exist in such terms.

Mzungu mchagga
06-07-11, 13:58
@Anton

I agree with you on most points!
I wouldn't see the USA as less cultured than other European countries. Mass-production and commercial culture is -as the name already says- also culture and has it's roots in business-minded Calvinist/Baptist/Puritan thoughts, which got started in Europe and were further developed in America.
I've been to the US three times as a teen, and I experienced a lot more culture than what I've ever seen in Germany. Even though a lot was commercialized (e.g. Thanksgiving, Halloween, Prom-Night, Rodeos, Sportgames, Fast Food diners), Germany doesn't even have a distinct culture as such. The reason is also partly strategical deconstruction of German culture after WWII due to it's bad reputation.


Back to the main question, which was what is ethnicity?

You said, ethnicity is comprised of 10% DNA, 20% race and 70% culture. Well, I don't walk around with a mobile laboratory, cranial ruler and nursery rhyme questionaire when asking about the ethnicity of my conversation partner.
Last year we had an incident on German media when a woman from East Germany got a job refusal in West Germany because of her origin and wanted to sue the potential employer of 'ethnic discrimination', which would mean after 40 years of division East Germans have become an own ethnicity. Some posters in this forum would argue that she would still belong to a distinct German ethnicity, if her father carries haplogroup R1b or R1a or I1. My (German) dictionary says, an ethnicity is a group of people in which a certain culture is practiced in... mmh :thinking:

It get's even more confusing when the same people start to loose their own consistency. I always remember Samual Huntington with his book "The Clash of Cultures" in which he devided the World cultures into "Western Culture", "Islamic Culture", "Japanese Culture" or "African Culture" etc.... It would be like saying:

He is black, has thick lips and curly hair ---> therefore he is of African ethnicity

He looks Asian and speaks Japanese ---> therefore he is of Japanese ethnicity

He believes in Allah and is darker skinned ---> therefore he is of Arab ethnicity

He has Ashkenazi ancestors and haplogroup J1 ---> therefore he is of Jewish ethnicity

He was born and raised in Brazil and speaks Portuguese ---> therefore he is of LatAm ethnicity

As you can see, all those comparisons make no sense and it's like asking for apples and getting pears as reply.

My own conclusion is that most people have their very own constructions and categorize people after many criteria. These are partly conscious, partly unconscious emotional and kognitive constructs to simplify the vast flood of imformation we are receiving daily. If these categories apply to a huge number of people, like groups of populations, we simply call them: ethnicities! :laughing:

Riccardo
08-07-11, 19:57
I don't care at all. I make contact very easy with people from all over the world I come across. Contacts through internet, on forums (fora) like this are much more complicated.

What interests me most is the stories that people can tell. Their talents.

It's a pity I often see a struggle between religion and freedom.
Also a struggle between political propaganda and freedom.

Well.. I like a woman with a pretty face, and a smile.
But she has to be intellectually challenging.

I am married with one like that. :rolleyes2:

I totally agree with you, my friend! If all people thought like you, this would be a better world, for sure!

Anyhow peoples around the world are in constant evolution, the concept of "nationality" is a human invention. No one can be defined "pure" in a national way, it is ridicolous. We live in an open world, nowdays it is no sense talking about boaders. The importance of meeting other cultures (this is the best way to think about differences!) and to know other point of views is something that make all us so rich in an intellectual sense. That's why I'm in this forum, I want to compare my heritage with other people from different backgrounds. So we shouldn't give so much important to the "ethnic look". As Reinaert says, just in case of a woman with a pretty face, a smile and a clever brain! Eheh!

zanipolo
08-07-11, 21:16
I totally agree with you, my friend! If all people thought like you, this would be a better world, for sure!

Anyhow peoples around the world are in constant evolution, the concept of "nationality" is a human invention. No one can be defined "pure" in a national way, it is ridicolous. We live in an open world, nowdays it is no sense talking about boaders. The importance of meeting other cultures (this is the best way to think about differences!) and to know other point of views is something that make all us so rich in an intellectual sense. That's why I'm in this forum, I want to compare my heritage with other people from different backgrounds. So we shouldn't give so much important to the "ethnic look". As Reinaert says, just in case of a woman with a pretty face, a smile and a clever brain! Eheh!

An interesting question would be, democratically speaking in regards to the concept of nationality - would you allow a people to ceced from a nation if they overwhelmingly voted for it ( say over 85%) .....example, would you let piedmont secede to form its own nation or would you support the Italian army to smash these people and keep them under Italy. The answer will dictate if someone is truly democratic or not.
Might be interesting to see peoples opinion on this

iapetoc
08-07-11, 22:19
An interesting question would be, democratically speaking in regards to the concept of nationality - would you allow a people to ceced from a nation if they overwhelmingly voted for it ( say over 85%) .....example, would you let piedmont secede to form its own nation or would you support the Italian army to smash these people and keep them under Italy. The answer will dictate if someone is truly democratic or not.
Might be interesting to see peoples opinion on this

hmmm

that problem was solved even from ancient Greeks,
the creation of major and municipal democracy and the creation of a state democracy,

the problem today that we don't understand is that democracy is the solution when a problem is over,
and not to create problems,
for example Piedmont had joined italy by democracy or by force?
Piedmont feels italian or not,

democracy is about to join groups and to split groups,

so we must a system that either is small autonono societies, or a bigger that contains small autonomo and bigger united,

that system could be EU,
if we have 3-4 rulers,
like a small of municipal, a bigger of province, and a bigger of country and a bigger of EU,

Democracy is not a pacifist political system
democracy is a political system that must create fear to rulers and not to mazes
so not to corrupted and rule the people wise,

democracy is about laws everyday life justice education etc

iapetoc
08-07-11, 22:23
Mono-culture is a uniform society:
standardized education
standardized language
standardized values
standardized laws
standardized code of conduct
standardized historical heroes
standardized traditions
standardized religion or lack of it
standardized ideology
standardized ...
More united things = better, but impossible to have everything united. Deviations are possible, but rod should be shared.
"Multiculturalism" have a right on existing in sense that minorities build a common culture or attached to one of "basic" nation. "Multiculturalism" where everything is different and everyone for themselves is utopia, united state simply can't exist in such terms.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm




@Anton

I agree with you on most points!
I wouldn't see the USA as less cultured than other European countries. Mass-production and commercial culture is -as the name already says- also culture and has it's roots in business-minded Calvinist/Baptist/Puritan thoughts, which got started in Europe and were further developed in America.
I've been to the US three times as a teen, and I experienced a lot more culture than what I've ever seen in Germany. Even though a lot was commercialized (e.g. Thanksgiving, Halloween, Prom-Night, Rodeos, Sportgames, Fast Food diners), Germany doesn't even have a distinct culture as such. The reason is also partly strategical deconstruction of German culture after WWII due to it's bad reputation.


Back to the main question, which was what is ethnicity?

You said, ethnicity is comprised of 10% DNA, 20% race and 70% culture. Well, I don't walk around with a mobile laboratory, cranial ruler and nursery rhyme questionaire when asking about the ethnicity of my conversation partner.
Last year we had an incident on German media when a woman from East Germany got a job refusal in West Germany because of her origin and wanted to sue the potential employer of 'ethnic discrimination', which would mean after 40 years of division East Germans have become an own ethnicity. Some posters in this forum would argue that she would still belong to a distinct German ethnicity, if her father carries haplogroup R1b or R1a or I1. My (German) dictionary says, an ethnicity is a group of people in which a certain culture is practiced in... mmh :thinking:

It get's even more confusing when the same people start to loose their own consistency. I always remember Samual Huntington with his book "The Clash of Cultures" in which he devided the World cultures into "Western Culture", "Islamic Culture", "Japanese Culture" or "African Culture" etc.... It would be like saying:

He is black, has thick lips and curly hair ---> therefore he is of African ethnicity

He looks Asian and speaks Japanese ---> therefore he is of Japanese ethnicity

He believes in Allah and is darker skinned ---> therefore he is of Arab ethnicity

He has Ashkenazi ancestors and haplogroup J1 ---> therefore he is of Jewish ethnicity

He was born and raised in Brazil and speaks Portuguese ---> therefore he is of LatAm ethnicity

As you can see, all those comparisons make no sense and it's like asking for apples and getting pears as reply.

My own conclusion is that most people have their very own constructions and categorize people after many criteria. These are partly conscious, partly unconscious emotional and kognitive constructs to simplify the vast flood of imformation we are receiving daily. If these categories apply to a huge number of people, like groups of populations, we simply call them: ethnicities! :laughing:


have ever abroad germany?

I will give in a video what is Anton saying
and you are saying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P7Zd-x2QXw&feature=related

so we are all same no africa no arab no latin
WE EAT ALL BURGERS
AND DRINK COLA
AND LISTEN BEYONCE or Heavymetal
WE ALL LIVE IN AMERICA

the alternate,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoSGxkBytJ8

the october fest in greece making raki-tsipoyro-tsikoydia
a fair of drunken people all day.

THAT IS SOMETHINK YOU NEVER LIVE WITH OUT ETHNICITY
the laws of our father
No ethnicity it is like Munchen October fest with cola and burgers
no beer no wurst

they even make tourism an industry and many times I travel with agency I wonder if I really met the other people;s ethnicity,

Mzungu mchagga
09-07-11, 07:15
have ever abroad germany?

I guess so!


THAT IS SOMETHINK YOU NEVER LIVE WITH OUT ETHNICITY
the laws of our father
No ethnicity it is like Munchen October fest with cola and burgers
no beer no wurst

they even make tourism an industry and many times I travel with agency I wonder if I really met the other people;s ethnicity,

It depends on your definition of the word 'culture'. Of course, if your definition says that it needs to be developed by an ethnicity [which we btw just discussed here, is in itself hard to define!], then people in the USA lost all their culture and didn't develope any new culture from the start from which they lost their ethnic bounds to Europe. A lot of Americans, especially in the South, can't tell which ethnicity they actually belong to, and simply refer to themselves as 'Americans', see here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png/800px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png)
In that case you would have to say that Country Music is no real music, because it wasn't developed by a certain ethnicity. Sqaure Dance is no real dance, because it wasn't devloped by an ethnicity. The 'Star-Sprangled Banner' is no real anthem, 'Yankee Doodle' is no nursery rhyme, jeans are no cloths, BBQ-Sauce is no sauce, Louisiana shrimp stew is no serious meal etc...

Germany is not a good example, because it really is the least cultured nation of Europe. Not that it doesn't show any culture, but the specific identity is widely gone, especially in Northern Germany, it is somewhat different in, for example, Bavaria.
There is no folk dance when you go to Northern German feast. Traditional meals, except for fast food like Bratwurst, are usually avoided. There is not a single song except for one nursery rhyme ("Alle meine Entchen"), all Germans from all parts and from young to old could sing etc...
So I think it's more than hypocritical of Rammstein to accuse Americans of having no culture. BTW, where did they actually think their kind of music was invented? :thinking:

iapetoc
09-07-11, 10:44
I guess so!



It depends on your definition of the word 'culture'. Of course, if your definition says that it needs to be developed by an ethnicity [which we btw just discussed here, is in itself hard to define!], then people in the USA lost all their culture and didn't develope any new culture from the beginning they lost their ethnical bounds to Europe. A lot of Americans, especially in the South, can't tell which ethnicity they actually belong to, and simply refer to themselves as 'Americans', see here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png/800px-Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County-1396x955.png)
In that case you would have to say that Country Music is no real music, because it wasn't developed by a certain ethnicity. Sqaure Dance is no real dance, because it wasn't devloped by an ethnicity. The 'Star-Sprangled Banner' is no real anthem, 'Yankee Doodle' is no nursery rhyme, jeans are no cloths, BBQ-Sauce is no sauce, Louisiana shrimp stew is no serious meal etc...

Germany is not a good example, because it really is the least cultured nation of Europe. Not that it doesn't show any culture, but the specific identity is widely gone, especially in Northern Germany, it is somewhat different in, for example, Bavaria.
There is no folk dance when you go to Northern German feast. Traditional meals, except for fast food like Bratwurst, are usually avoided. There is not a single song except for one nursery rhyme ("Alle meine Entchen"), all Germans from all parts and from young to old could sing etc...
So I think it's more than hypocritical of Rammstein to accuse Americans of having no culture. BTW, where did they actually think their kind of music was invented? :thinking:


about america, it created ethbicities,
ethnicities is law of Nature, is the 'create groups' animal law,
ethnicities in Usa are the pensylvanian dutch (amies quakers etc)
ethnicity is the missisipi culture with river boats poker and blues (loats of rythm blues) the Norleans culture
ethnicity is the texan cow-boy,
the Alaska gold rush immigrants,
etc as you see ethnicity is something that created by humans and their tend to create groups,

ramstein accuse the flat of ethnicity and not america
ramstein are saying that slowly we loose our identity and we become all 'americans' not USAer's but Americans,

ramstein are accusing the global culture,
another could be we are all italians (pizza every corner)
my nephew is half week pizza eating but not like a good italian makes it, but how an industry does (super market frozzen pizza, modern days consuming mania)
or we all live in china (chinese food everywhere, chinese parts every where, a world made in china)

if I watch tv at the 10 advertisement the 8 are burgers, cola, whiskey, banks, cars, coffee or tea
the 'american dream' (not the USA notice the difference)
(if i buy the shoes that Ronaldo wears, I will be better player???)
(my father played ball with rags and he was 10 times better than me who had a famous athletic shoe)
while if buy something and look inside i see (made in china CE ####)
and if i go out for food i eat Greek souvlaki (yeahhh) or burger or pizza or chinese,
wow the same that someones is eating even in africa,
what happened the other good greek delicacies? (I live in greece)

no ethnicity means flatness of civilization,
the wrong is when we place ethnicity above humans,

now about north germany I never been or lived, but surely there is something that you haven't see,
the 'tsipoyro' case is not the drink, but the secret is what follows the production,
preparations, gathering, fun, fair, it is not the tsipouro that makes it but the people who are happy when they produce it. so next time i drink i remember how people make it.
after that is just an alcohol drink, but when i drink it i remember the fun,
it is not the alcohol that makes the spirit,

I am surely that there is also something there, search in how people think, how people live, what makes them happy, and gathers them and have fun, compare it with 1900 and before,


ethnicity is when you are lost to remember your fathers and what they did,
to make what he did 1 or 2 times per year so not to lose your ID.

just 1 day wear the clothes of your grand father and look at the mirror,
it is the most simple to understand ethnicity,

ethnicity is when i drink the tea sideritis (τσαι βουνισιο= mountain tea) that my grand father drink and i looked at him as kid, cause ultil 12 was not given to kids, and gather it by hand, leaf to leaf, flower by flower, and not a tea (trade mark) cause tv say so.

Mzungu mchagga
09-07-11, 14:16
@iapetoc

It is clear that commercial and industrially mass-produced products such as Coca-Cola or frozen pizza don't have the same cultural value as individually home made products. Mass-production was more or less invented in the Anglican sphere, mainly USA. That is why many people come with the wrong conclusion that America as such has no culture. Supported by the fact that America is not grounded on a specific ethnicity and it's (European) history is not as old as history in Europe, many people try to find the reason in these arguments. Seriously, this is a prejudice!

With comparison to Northern Germany, of course you can find culture here, too! Yes, there are even living open-air museums, medieval fairs etc... But from what I could observe, culture in Germany is not as lived as in most other European countries on a daily basis. Or even at holyday celebrations such as christmas I sometimes have the feeling that procedures are much more relaxed than in other countries. And because Germany is also very urbanized, there is also a naturally lower percentage of people who still produce their own food, beverages, clothes in comparison to Southern and Eastern Europe and so on. In fact, living style here is very industrialized, and the reason that people here are just slightly slimmer than Americans is due to the fact that you can't get by car everywhere and we have more stairs to walk. So I think it's hypocritical of many Germans to blame Americans for having no culture, while they themselves have nothing more to offer against it.

Riccardo
11-07-11, 02:41
An interesting question would be, democratically speaking in regards to the concept of nationality - would you allow a people to ceced from a nation if they overwhelmingly voted for it ( say over 85%) .....example, would you let piedmont secede to form its own nation or would you support the Italian army to smash these people and keep them under Italy. The answer will dictate if someone is truly democratic or not.
Might be interesting to see peoples opinion on this

I don't care so much about the concept of nation, neither about the concept of "patria". It interesting and it is right to talk about differences, because they exist obviously, but I see the history as a whole, and in my opinion there are no nationalities, no boadres, no ethnicities. Those ideas exist just because they're in perpetual evolution. Italy exists only because it is the result of many cultures/ethnicities/peoples melting, and so other countries. Now we live in an open world, as I said, because we can easily communicate, we can keep in touch and feel closer to foreign people living abroad than to our neighbours.
It is difficult to acept, because the human nature always pushes to fight, to conserve, to identify itself with certain values...But the truth is that it is no-sense, because boarders, nationalities, countries, are all human conventions. The real boaders are psychological. That's why I believe in a real United Europe (in the differences) as a first step for our continent.
What is fundamental to me? We don't have to make a mistake: not everything is relative. There should be some values that must be recognized: freedom of thought, respect of human rights, reciprocity. Those are the only things for what I would fight for. I would never fight for patriotic reasons or for Piedmont or for something like this. I'm not stupid, I know I'm idealist in my way of thinking, and I know that what I say is a dream, but it is the mirror of my feelings about this issue.
So Piedmont secede? Well, I would think that Piemontesi (people from Piedmont) are regressing, eheh.

Canek
13-07-11, 18:59
Today Latin America is more racist places in the world.

The reality of Latin American countries remained that of a mestizo, indigenous and black majority, which national identity could not be founded on the ideal of a white population. It is in this context that the ideology of mestizaje emerges as national identity in many countries, as was the case of Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico, etc.. But from the basis of a racial hierarchy in which the ideal, unattainable the majority, being white and European phenotypic traits, although socially accepted to be mestizo.


In short, the discourse of American identity is based on the complementarity of three ideas: miscegenation, discrimination and whitening. Miscegenation as the only way to the unattainable ideal of being white, always latent discrimination and denied, and bleaching as ratification of the supreme value of being white.


Therefore, Latin American racism is associated with the physical aspect, taking into account the color and appearance. But it's not racism that is expressed by a clearly differentiated target group to another non-white. It is a system of discrimination based on the relative difference of skin color and appearance, which also has the level of income and whether you're male or female. In some contexts a person can become an agent and promoter of racism in others it may be the victim, why is it so difficult to identify and recognize.


put proof or retract... that's of course a european source, i bet.


there's no more racism in america than in europe, we do not have an ameriapedia...

race does not matter in latin america. we are all the same with the same rights and opportunities.

Carlitos
30-07-11, 15:57
^^

The Latin-American racialism is associated with the physical aspect, there is born in mind the color of the skin and the physical aspect. But, it is not a racialism that expresses itself on the part of a group clearly differentiated like white towards another not target. It is a system of discrimination based on the relative difference of the color of the skin and the physical aspect, in which also it counts the level of revenue and if you are a man or woman. In a few contexts a person can turn into agent promoter of the racialism and in others she can be the victim, for it it is so difficult to identify and to recognize.

Reinaert
01-08-11, 14:31
@japetoc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P7Zd-x2QXw&feature=player_embedded

This song from Rammstein is irony, meant sarcastically, a joke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du3WhHrrNgs&feature=related

This is from Randy Newman, somewhat the same irony.

Ok, another word.. SATIRE :grin:

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 14:38
Appearance is not important to me, some are born unique and others less so, but all people are ultimately very different and more similar than anybody often cares to admit! Racial profiling is a waste of time, too many confounding variables that play a more important role and are often ignored because we have not way of measuring them yet.

mrikë
16-10-11, 17:47
I'm not sure. I think these things are settled in a subconscious scale, more than many of us like to admit.

himagain
31-01-12, 05:22
All national/ethnic looks are fine with me as long as they aren't scowling judgementaly.

Gitte
07-01-19, 20:51
No, I don't care. One of my best friends (* one of my few friends) is Indian and that might not seem like much, but there are still plenty of prejudices towards people here that are less common where I live and I met her on a international summer camp where I also got along with Costa Ricans, Latvians, Argentinians, Finns and so on. Because I am interested in history sometimes someone's look will make me think they have some x ancestry, but it won't stop me from talking to them if I get the opportunity. That my own country (Belgium) has quite a bit of diversity even within families helps a lot of course.

julia90
09-01-19, 02:23
What do you mean by that?
Personal sexual attraction? (in this case I tend to be more attracted by typical Italian men)
Or other social contacts? (as friends, colleagues, acquaintances ecc.. In this case those can be of any look, also the no ethnic Italian associate look such as Blaks or east asian, or others)