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Haganus
08-07-11, 22:59
Who does know Lothar Kilian and A. Hausler's theories:
the Indo-European languages did not arrive in West-Europe by immigrants, but
by acculturation and adoption. Both authors remark that the skeletons of people from the areas west of Weichsel are quite differents from those of the people in south Russia
and Ukraine. They absolutely deny any kind of immigration.
Who can give me more information? What is your opinion about Kilian and Hausler's theories?

how yes no 2
08-07-11, 23:41
I sometimes wonder whether IE language might have originally been language of haplogroup I people.. it's spread to Asia and east Europe can be due to I2a-din spread from Europe to asia...

sparkey
09-07-11, 01:44
I sometimes wonder whether IE language might have originally been language of haplogroup I people.. it's spread to Asia and east Europe can be due to I2a-din spread from Europe to asia...

So you've told us... :laughing:

I think that places its spread quite too late, remember that TMRCA of I2a-Din is remarkably young, it is one of the most recent bottlenecks in Haplogroup I, even among Haplogroup I's recent bottlenecking. Look up Nordtvedt's tree for some comparisons.

Besides, even a transmission from Haplogroup I people involves some movement of people, like the I2a-Din in the Kurds... and I think we see a more obvious movement that parallels some of the best theories on IE peoples with the combined movement of R1a and R1b peoples. That of course is not the whole story, as R1a and R1b also seem to have non-IE components, but I think that's because we are seeing BOTH transmission of culture AND migration. Certainly more migration than Kilian and Hausler would suggest, anyway, especially among men (Y-DNA seems to have different patterns than mtDNA).

how yes no 2
09-07-11, 22:28
So you've told us... :laughing:

I think that places its spread quite too late, remember that TMRCA of I2a-Din is remarkably young, it is one of the most recent bottlenecks in Haplogroup I, even among Haplogroup I's recent bottlenecking. Look up Nordtvedt's tree for some comparisons.

Besides, even a transmission from Haplogroup I people involves some movement of people, like the I2a-Din in the Kurds... and I think we see a more obvious movement that parallels some of the best theories on IE peoples with the combined movement of R1a and R1b peoples. That of course is not the whole story, as R1a and R1b also seem to have non-IE components, but I think that's because we are seeing BOTH transmission of culture AND migration. Certainly more migration than Kilian and Hausler would suggest, anyway, especially among men (Y-DNA seems to have different patterns than mtDNA).

you are probably right...

good indication is that R1a + N dominant Balts speak practically old Balto-Slavic language and have no I2a-din, while Slavs have lot of add on top of that old language and are R1a + I2a-din dominant...

Goga
09-07-11, 22:43
This is what I always believed. Most Europeans are not Indo-European by race, only by language. While Kurds are Indo-European by race, culture and language.

Haganus
10-07-11, 15:43
Please I should like to know more about the Lothar Kilian and Alexanders Haeusler 's theories:
they deny any immigration from East-Europe in the area of West-Europe till the Weichsel.
But how did they declare the presence of the haplogroup R1a in Sweden and Norway?

Goga
25-08-11, 01:26
Please I should like to know more about the Lothar Kilian and Alexanders Haeusler 's theories:
they deny any immigration from East-Europe in the area of West-Europe till the Weichsel.
But how did they declare the presence of the haplogroup R1a in Sweden and Norway?Sweden and Norway is Scandinavia and very much isloated from the rest of West Europe.

Taranis
25-08-11, 01:31
I find it embarassing when people overtly have some kind of ideological agendas to pursue when they are arguing history, linguistics or genetics.

Goga
25-08-11, 01:35
I find it embarassing when people overtly have some kind of ideological agendas to pursue when they are arguing history, linguistics or genetics.Are you talking about me? I do also dislike folks with 'ideological agendas'...

Taranis
25-08-11, 01:37
Are you talking about me?

No, I'm talking about Kilian and Hausler. And a lot of other people.

Goga
25-08-11, 01:42
No, I'm talking about Kilian and Hausler. And a lot of other people.Ok, thanks. But how do you know they're biased toward this issue and have some hidden agenda behind their statements? Maybe they're very sincerely and trying to contribute some ideas in this debate. They're European and they discuss this about their own people.

Bodin
25-08-11, 10:13
But there is a lot of R1a in Europe , Poland , Czech , Slovakia , Hungary , Germany , Skandinavia ,... So some migration had to hapen . Also some of Scandinavian R1a is detected as Altaic ( non Slavic ) R1a ( together with some Q and K ) - so the migration from even far from East is evident . I believe that god part of Central European and East European R1a is also Altaic - Turkmen .

Goga
25-08-11, 16:41
But there is a lot of R1a in Europe , Poland , Czech , Slovakia , Hungary , Germany , Skandinavia ,... So some migration had to hapen . Also some of Scandinavian R1a is detected as Altaic ( non Slavic ) R1a ( together with some Q and K ) - so the migration from even far from East is evident . I believe that god part of Central European and East European R1a is also Altaic - Turkmen .Yes, but they do speak about West Europe. I think that what they're trying to say is that peoples in western (Atlantic) European regions with high R1b are native to Europe and that R1b is not IE at all, but very ancient native European subclade.

haithabu
25-08-11, 20:37
I'm skeptical of the thesis. It's one thing to say that there is insufficient evidence to support the migration theory as the primary cause for the spread of IE; to categorically state that immigration played no role sounds like an error in the other direction to me.

The theory looks like the academic revisionism that periodically sweeps through some disciplines, usually in reaction to an earlier orthodoxy. It often has as much to do with power struggles between different groups of scientists as it does with the science itself. For that reason it is usually unbalanced and fated to be replaced by something more nuanced.

IMO the genetic trail left by R1B between the Caucasus and Western Europe is the clear sign of a significant migration. The only question in my mind is whether it accompanied the spread of IE languages.

Goga
25-08-11, 20:51
IMO the genetic trail left by R1B between the Caucasus and Western Europe is the clear sign of a significant migration. The only question in my mind is whether it accompanied the spread of IE languages.True. I think that the answer to this question is to find out when R1b migrated into Europe, and the age of PIE.

The first European R1b folks could be the PIE language carriers, non-Indo-European Neolithic farmers or maybe even somebody else.

Taranis
25-08-11, 21:03
But there is a lot of R1a in Europe , Poland , Czech , Slovakia , Hungary , Germany , Skandinavia ,... So some migration had to hapen . Also some of Scandinavian R1a is detected as Altaic ( non Slavic ) R1a ( together with some Q and K ) - so the migration from even far from East is evident . I believe that god part of Central European and East European R1a is also Altaic - Turkmen .

Mind you, there is also small percentages of R1a in Western Europe, and most of them cannot be convincably be explained by Germanic influence (for example the Auvergne has ~5% R1a, Cantabria even has over 8%!), which is why I personally suspect that there may have been a small Celtic component to R1a as well.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

sparkey
25-08-11, 21:42
Mind you, there is also small percentages of R1a in Western Europe, and most of them cannot be convincably be explained by Germanic influence (for example the Auvergne has ~5% R1a, Cantabria even has over 8%!), which is why I personally suspect that there may have been a small Celtic component to R1a as well.

I've observed the same pattern before with mtDNA U4a2, which generally maps quite well to the Corded Ware expansion but has a little bit of spillover into Western Europe that seems to map better with Celtic peoples than Germanic peoples. Although I don't have any answers as to why that is, I suspect that it may be the result of two transmissions: first from Corded Ware to Beaker people (they surely came into contact) and second from Beaker people to the Celtic expansions (ditto). Any thoughts?

Taranis
25-08-11, 21:52
I've observed the same pattern before with mtDNA U4a2, which generally maps quite well to the Corded Ware expansion but has a little bit of spillover into Western Europe that seems to map better with Celtic peoples than Germanic peoples. Although I don't have any answers as to why that is, I suspect that it may be the result of two transmissions: first from Corded Ware to Beaker people (they surely came into contact) and second from Beaker people to the Celtic expansions (ditto). Any thoughts?

Let me say I absolutely agree with that! On the flip side, I must also say that there is no reason why there should be no Celtic R1a whatsoever, anyways. The percentages we see in the Auvergne and Cantabria actually fit very well with an expansion from Central Europe (ie, from the periphery of the former Corded Ware area).

Bodin
25-08-11, 22:56
Yes, but they do speak about West Europe. I think that what they're trying to say is that peoples in western (Atlantic) European regions with high R1b are native to Europe and that R1b is not IE at all, but very ancient native European subclade.
Yes there is posibility that parts of R1b were previosly in Europe ( spreading from West Asia during Neolithe or even Paleolitic Europeans ) , but some parts of them had probably come with IE speackers , like parts joined R1a in Tocharians.
Thanks for answering

Bodin
25-08-11, 22:59
Mind you, there is also small percentages of R1a in Western Europe, and most of them cannot be convincably be explained by Germanic influence (for example the Auvergne has ~5% R1a, Cantabria even has over 8%!), which is why I personally suspect that there may have been a small Celtic component to R1a as well.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif
I also believe there was R1a in Celts , but Celts were also IE speackers so they are counted in migrations

Goga
27-10-11, 22:39
The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...

Asturrulumbo
27-10-11, 23:01
The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...
According to the theory that R1b is Indo-European, R1b was in the southwest of the Steppes, and Indo-Iranian migrations didn't pass through there.

Goga
27-10-11, 23:06
According to the theory that R1b is Indo-European, R1b was in the southwest of the Steppes, and Indo-Iranian migrations didn't pass through there.
Which theory? Do you have papers or studies about that.

And there is not so much R1b in the soutwest of the Steppes. And if R1b migrated from there it would also carry R1a with it.

Alan
28-10-11, 00:30
Who does know Lothar Kilian and A. Hausler's theories:
the Indo-European languages did not arrive in West-Europe by immigrants, but
by acculturation and adoption. Both authors remark that the skeletons of people from the areas west of Weichsel are quite differents from those of the people in south Russia
and Ukraine. They absolutely deny any kind of immigration.
Who can give me more information? What is your opinion about Kilian and Hausler's theories?

This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.

Knovas
28-10-11, 00:45
This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.
Pretty obvious.

And if one day appears some ancient R1b in Europe, I expect it very far from the modern subclades.

rms2
29-10-11, 20:07
The best argument according to me that R1b is not Indo-European at all is that there is no R1b in India!

INDO-European haplogroups in India are: R1a, R2a, G2a and J2a

Dravidian haplogroups in India are: H, L etc...

Hmmm . . . I think that is a bad argument. The fact that there is little R1b in India proves only that there is little R1b in India.

Indo-European-speaking invaders may have spread R1a to India, but that does not prove R1b is not Indo-European.

Let's put it this way. If I have melons in my garden, but they are all watermelons, does that prove that cantaloupes are not melons?

rms2
29-10-11, 20:15
The oldest R1b in Europe that we know about is that single R1b individual from the Lichtenstein Cave discovery, circa 1,000 BC.

After that, I believe the bodies from the Aldaieta cemetery in the Basque country in Spain are the oldest, but they date from the early medieval period (6th century, I think).

Next in age come the bodies of the warriors in the cave in Ergolding in Bavaria from the 7th century.

Does anyone know of any older R1b in Europe? I haven't heard of any.

So, the oldest known R1b in Europe dates from the Bronze Age. After that, we have a few from the early medieval period, and that's it.

Claims that R1b is "very ancient" in western Europe are lacking in aDNA support. Of course, maybe the "very ancient" R1b in Europe just hasn't been discovered yet. Maybe.

Goga
29-10-11, 21:57
The distance between R1a and R1b is at least 18000 years. If Proto-Indo-Europeans were R1* folks that would mean that they lived at least 18000 years ago!

According to me the Indo-European ethnicity is not that old.

A new race emerged when J2a & G2a folks mixed with R1a & R2a folks in the Ponstic Steppe. These folks spoke a proto-Indo-European language.

And later their Iranic offsprings were responsible for the invasion of India and wrote the Awesta-Gatas and Rig Vada Aryan writings.

But the writing itself is from the Mesopotamia from the J2a & G2a folks!

rms2
30-10-11, 01:30
A new race? Whoa! Never happened.

Indo-European is a family of languages, not a race. Both R1a and R1b are older than that language family, so it is fruitless to try to tie PIE to the birth of either y haplogroup, let alone its ancestor, R1. That does not mean both are not of predominantly Indo-European provenance, in Europe and elsewhere.

The argument you made, that the lack of R1b in India proves R1b is not Indo-European, is not logical, just as my melon analogy was not logical.

I could make a similar argument, for example, by saying that the lack of R1a in Ireland proves that R1a cannot be Indo-European. In fact, one could make a good argument that Ireland is more strongly Indo-European than India, since no non-IE language or culture survived in Ireland, as they certainly do in India.

How much R2a is there north of the Black Sea? Not much, I'm thinking.

As for G2a, it seems to have a much stronger affinity for the Caucasian languages than for Indo-European languages.

I'm no expert on the J haplogroup and its clades, but they all seem to have a much stronger connection to Semitic languages than to Indo-European.

Goga
30-10-11, 06:45
Arabs in Arabia don't have much J2. Even folks in Europe have more J2a than Arabs in Arabia!

According to me J2 was originally a Hurrian marker. the first thing what happened to this marker is that it migrated southwest with the Neolithic farmers / agriculture. Also there's a lot J2 in Semitic speaking folks due to Hurrians AND Indo-Europeans conquests who invaded & raided Southern parts of the Middle East many time. I mean even Scythians invaded and raided Israel at one point in history!

As far as I know the Caucasus (be it North be it South) is cradle of Indo-European folks! So proto Indo-European would have G in them at the first place.

When J2a & G2 folks migrated northward R1a was present north of the Black Sea, while R2a was present on the left side of R1a, between Central Asia & the north side of the Caspian Sea. R2a was neighbouring R1a on the East!

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6686/15797570.jpg
http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1867/52191874.jpg
http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

Goga
30-10-11, 09:41
This theories are outdated and already "proven" to be wrong. Not a single individuals of R1b was found from paleolithic Europe so far while today this Haplogroup dominates West Europe.
They didn't find any hg. 'E' in Europe either.

And hg. E is also very old in Europe!

I'm certain that if they find some ancient DNA in Britain it will be most probably R1b. they're just looking for ancient R1b in a wrong place!

rms2
30-10-11, 15:02
Arabs in Arabia don't have much J2. Even folks in Europe have more J2a than Arabs in Arabia! . . .


Ahem . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Mesopotamia looks like the heartland of J2. Not exactly a hotbed of Indo-European, and I know of no one who has suggested it as the PIE homeland.

If J2 has a linguistic affinity at all, it is with Semitic languages and not Indo-European.

Alan
30-10-11, 15:05
There was a time, where I thought Basques are Hurrians moved to West Europe. Now again to me it seems like Basques are from Near East who have "mutated" through endogamy. Man they even call themselves Herria (Hurria?) in their own language, and their language is ergative just like Hurrians. The only explain why Basques have less West Asian than the rest of Europe is, that they are so much "inbreed" that their genome has changed extremely. The same is also the case for Sardinians. I mean Sardinians and Basques sometimes even fall out in European clusters.

Knovas
30-10-11, 15:40
Basques aren't genetically that old, it's just the language (wich is very difficult to know where it comes from), I'm pretty sure about this now. They are very distinctive because they certanly practiced hard endogamy, but not from a extremely ancient point. The high Northwestern they show it's very likely related to R1b, in my opinion recent in Europe, so no magic mutation, more if we consider that during the Neolithic the most common clade in Europe and concretely there, was I2a1a* (nothing to do with the Near East). That's what the R1b peoples found there.

My perception about them has changed in that issue. I'm not sure about Sardinians, they are quite difficult to categorize since they get many different results on admixture.

In a global-plot they don't fall out of Europe, that's absolutely sure. What you see in most especific plots is a representation of isolation with many common markers, that's why they are separated. But they never deviate to Asia, Africa, and no need to say, the Near East. They are simply apart IN Europe.

Knovas
30-10-11, 16:11
They didn't find any hg. 'E' in Europe either.

And hg. E is also very old in Europe!

I'm certain that if they find some ancient DNA in Britain it will be most probably R1b. they're just looking for ancient R1b in a wrong place!
No wrong place, since R1b is the most common in all Europe today. The most normal thing, is that, at least, in one country, a sample of a clearly related R1b with the ones we have today, appeared. But for the moment it wasn't the case.

You can't compare it with haplogroup E, this one is much less present today in all Europe. In that regard, I think it's valid the example you propose for the British islands, but looking at Iberia (especially the Western side). However, I think only E-M81 and similar clades would appear, I see it much more easy than finding E-M78. For this one, the Balkans or Greece seems a very likely option to start the research.

Goga
30-10-11, 17:01
Ahem . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Mesopotamia looks like the heartland of J2. Not exactly a hotbed of Indo-European, and I know of no one who has suggested it as the PIE homeland.

If J2 has a linguistic affinity at all, it is with Semitic languages and not Indo-European.
?

Some subclades of hg. E and J1 belong to the Semitic languages!

There's is MUCH more J2 in the Caucasus than in the Mesopotamia. J2 is from the north and came down to the Mesopotamia! Before the Arabs the Mesopotamia was 'Aryanized'.

Chechens = 56.5 % of J2
Ingush = 88 % of J2
etc.

Also Hurrians and later early Indo-Europeans or maybe they were related to the Hurrians too, like Kassites, Mittani, Guti and later Iranic folks like the Medes, Parthians, Persians conquered the Mesopotamia many times.



http://eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

http://eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif

Goga
30-10-11, 17:03
No wrong place, since R1b is the most common in all Europe today. The most normal thing, is that, at least, in one country, a sample of a clearly related R1b with the ones we have today, appeared. But for the moment it wasn't the case.

You can't compare it with haplogroup E, this one is much less present today in all Europe. In that regard, I think it's valid the example you propose for the British islands, but looking at Iberia (especially the Western side). However, I think only E-M81 and similar clades would appear, I see it much more easy than finding E-M78. For this one, the Balkans or Greece seems a very likely option to start the research.
R1b spread MUCH later into other parts (places) of Europe first from Britain later from Iberia.

Taranis
30-10-11, 17:11
R1b spread MUCH later into other parts (places) of Europe first from Britain later from Iberia.

No, that makes no sense. If you look at the distribution of the various R1b subclades, it's much more likely that R1b (L23, L11) spread into Southeastern Europe first and then probably from there to Central Europe. It's likely that L11 then spread from there, with it's subclades S21 and S116 in Central-Northern Europe and Western Europe, respectively. S116 in turn had several subclades emerge which became dominant in different regions, namely S28 in the Alpine region + Italy, L21 on the British Isles / in the Atlantic Façade, and Z196 in Iberia.

Knovas
30-10-11, 17:22
Agree with you Taranis. Also, it seems he means that a form of R1b crossed from Asia all Europe (bypassing) and the sea to establish in the British Islands a very long time ago, evolving to a close reference of the modern subclades, and then spreading from there to the rest of the territory. That's why he tells "later", seems like he proposes the British Islands as the place of origin for European R1b...

Sorry, but that looks fantasy. Incredibly unlikely.

Goga
30-10-11, 17:23
No, that makes no sense. If you look at the distribution of the various R1b subclade, it's much more likely that R1b (L23, L11) spread into Southeastern Europe first and then probably from there to Central Europe. It's likely that L11 then spread from there, with it's subclades S21 and S116 in Central-Northern Europe and Western Europe, respectively. S116 in turn had several subclades emerge which became dominant in different regions, namely S28 in the Alpine region + Italy, L21 on the British Isles / in the Atlantic Façade, and Z196 in Iberia.
You're talking about very, very young R1b subclades. And I have about the 'native' European R1b in Britain from the ice age times!

"During the Last Glacial Maximum, about 18,000 years ago, the people bearing the R1b haplogroup over wintered in Northern Spain (see map1). After the glacial retreat about 12,000 years before present, R1b began a migration to the north in large numbers (see map 2), and to the east in declining numbers.

R1b probably arrived in Spain from the east 30,000 years ago among the paleolithic or "old stone age" peoples considered to be aboriginal to Europe). It is believed that everyone who is R1b is a descendant in the male line from an individual known as "the patriarch" since his descendants account for over 40% of all the chromosomes of Europe. This haplogroup is characteristic of the Basques whose language is probably that of the first R1b, and who are genetically the closest to the original R1b population (which probably amounted to only a few thousand individuals). Source: Dr. David Faux http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1b (http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandhaplogroupR1b)

Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer's permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~staplessurname/before_surnames.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~staplessurname/before_surnames.htm)

During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the <a href="http://www.beloit.edu/~museum/logan/paleoexhibit/solutrian.htm">Solutrean (http://www.beloit.edu/~museum/logan/paleoexhibit/solutrian.htm%22%3ESolutrean) culture</a> and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.

The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt (We know him also from hg. 'I' analysis, lol.)

Source: Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b"


http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Whitney_Family_DNA_Project/Haplogroup_R1b

Goga
30-10-11, 17:27
Hg R was the dominant lineage in Western Europe and then, pushed south by the descending Ice Age, to southwestern France and northwestern Spain to evolve into lineage Hg R1b. This area became a refuge for humans in Europe during the coldest millennia of the last Ice Age. As the climate warmed, the scattered clan Hg R1b followed the migration of game to the north and some of them reached what is now the British Isles about 15,000 years ago which at this time was connected to mainland Europe. It is believed they changed from hunter-gatherers to farmers in southeastern Europe about 8,000 years ago and in Britain about 4,000 years ago. As hunter-gathers became farmer's permanent settlements ended this great migration period and over time Hg R1b settled predominately in what is known today as Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Denmark, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Source http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~staplessurname/before_surnames.htm

During the Last Glacial Maximum, R1b produced finely knapped stone 'leaf points' which define the <a href="http://www.beloit.edu/~museum/logan/paleoexhibit/solutrian.htm">Solutrean culture</a> and were culturally distinct from the people in other European Ice Age refuges who are described more generally as Epi-Gravettian. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, pp 249-50.
The mates for R1b, about the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, were mtDNA haplogroups H and V. (Haplogroup V was born in the Basque area of the Pyrenees shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum. Source: Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Real Eve, p 251.)

R1b Subclade Analysis by Ken Nordtvedt

Source: Notes on Y-Chromosome Haplogroup R1b

http://wiki.whitneygen.org/wrg/index.php/Whitney_Family_DNA_Project/Haplogroup_R1b

Taranis
30-10-11, 17:37
You're talking about very, very young R1b subclades. And I have about the 'native' European R1b in Britain from the ice age times!

Sorry, just NO. For your information, all the ancient R1b subclades are practically absent in Western Europe. R1b-V88 is in the Near East and Sub-Saharan Africa, R1b-M73 is in Central Asia, and all the ancient varieties of R1b-M269 (those that are negative of L23 and L11) and are found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Uralic-Caspian region, and not in (Western) Europe.

Goga
30-10-11, 17:39
Sorry, just NO. For your information, all the ancient R1b subclades are practically absent in Western Europe. R1b-V88 is in the Near East and Sub-Saharan Africa, R1b-M73 is in Central Asia, and all the ancient varieties of R1b-M269 (those that are negative of L23 and L11) and are found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Uralic-Caspian region, and not in (Western) Europe.
About R1b

"This subgroup probably originated in Central Asia/South Central Siberia and appears to have entered prehistoric Europe mainly from the area of modern Iran or Central Asia (Kazakhstan) via the coasts of the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea. It is believed by some to have been widespread in Europe before the last Ice Age, and associated with the Aurignacian culture (32,000-21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe.

The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings. Famous sites include Lascaux in France, Cueva de las Monedas in Spain and Valley of Foz Côa in Portugal (the largest open-air site in Europe).

When the ice age intensified and the continent became increasingly uninhabitable, the genetic diversity narrowed through founder effects and population bottlenecks, as the population became limited to a few coastal refugia in Southern Europe and Asia Minor.

The present-day R1b population is believed to be descended from a refuge in the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), where the R1b1c haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions of the ice age eased in about 12,000 before the present (bp), descendants of this group migrated and eventually re-colonized all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps."

http://www.flemishdna.com/Project/Flemish_Male_Ancestry.html

razor
30-10-11, 18:03
The debate between proponents of various time frames for the R1b movement into Europe rages on... Nothing is definitively settled. The view of a pre-glacial presence seemed acceptable. Then new "studies" emerged which argued for a much later arrival (nor was there agreement as to the route). Then they started to haggle about calculation methods for TMRCA. Meantime the key person on this website has comprehensively argued for R1b as the key IEuropeanizing factor in Western Europe (and possibly for the IE languages themselves). But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are (:=)))

Alan
30-10-11, 21:08
In a global-plot they don't fall out of Europe, that's absolutely sure. What you see in most especific plots is a representation of isolation with many common markers, that's why they are separated.

Thats actually what I meant.

Taranis
30-10-11, 21:11
The debate between proponents of various time frames for the R1b movement into Europe rages on... Nothing is definitively settled. The view of a pre-glacial presence seemed acceptable. Then new "studies" emerged which argued for a much later arrival (nor was there agreement as to the route). Then they started to haggle about calculation methods for TMRCA. Meantime the key person on this website has comprehensively argued for R1b as the key IEuropeanizing factor in Western Europe (and possibly for the IE languages themselves). But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are (:=)))

I would argue the following: what the newer studies do show beyond any question, regardless of wether R1b entered Western Europe in the Neolithic, Chalcolithic or the Bronze, and regardless of wether it's tied with speakers of Indo-European languages or not, is the approximate direction by which R1b spread.

razor
30-10-11, 21:57
east to west?

rms2
31-10-11, 03:42
. . . But this last contention (i.e. R1b as the original IE haplogroup) falls flat on archaeological as well as linguistic grounds. aDNA might be of help. But we don't have it yet. So there we are (:=)))

Classic bald assertion. Produce the R1b-flattening archaeological and linguistic grounds. The "linguistic grounds" assertion is especially interesting, given the fact that R1b is the most common y haplogroup in Europe.

rms2
31-10-11, 03:44
About R1b

"This subgroup probably originated in Central Asia/South Central Siberia and appears to have entered prehistoric Europe mainly from the area of modern Iran or Central Asia (Kazakhstan) via the coasts of the Black Sea and the Baltic Sea. It is believed by some to have been widespread in Europe before the last Ice Age, and associated with the Aurignacian culture (32,000-21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe.

The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings. Famous sites include Lascaux in France, Cueva de las Monedas in Spain and Valley of Foz Côa in Portugal (the largest open-air site in Europe).

When the ice age intensified and the continent became increasingly uninhabitable, the genetic diversity narrowed through founder effects and population bottlenecks, as the population became limited to a few coastal refugia in Southern Europe and Asia Minor.

The present-day R1b population is believed to be descended from a refuge in the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), where the R1b1c haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions of the ice age eased in about 12,000 before the present (bp), descendants of this group migrated and eventually re-colonized all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps."

http://www.flemishdna.com/Project/Flemish_Male_Ancestry.html

Man, that is some dated material! Note that what you quoted refers to "R1b1c".

The "R1b-in-the-Ice Age-Iberian Refuge" thing is pretty much dead.

Here is some much more current information from the ISOGG web site (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html):



Y-DNA haplogroup R-M207 is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2.


Haplogroup R1-M173 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia. The two most common descendant clades of haplogroup R1 are R1a and R1b.

R1a-M420 is believed to have arisen on the Eurasian Steppe or the Indus Valley, and today is most frequently observed in eastern Europe and in western and central Asia. Haplogroup R1a1a1g-M458 is found at frequencies approaching or exceeding 30% in Eastern Europe.
R1b-M343 is believed to have arisen in southwest Asia and today its sublcades are bound in various distributions across Eurasia and Africa.

Paragroup R1b1* and haplogroup R1b1c-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1c and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.

Haplogroup R1b1a-P297 is found throughout Eurasia.

Haplogroup R1b1a1-M73 is observed most frequently in Asia, with low frequency of observation in Europe.
Haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1-L11/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1a2a1a1a-S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a1b-P312/S116.

rms2
31-10-11, 04:25
?

Some subclades of hg. E and J1 belong to the Semitic languages!

There's is MUCH more J2 in the Caucasus than in the Mesopotamia. J2 is from the north and came down to the Mesopotamia! Before the Arabs the Mesopotamia was 'Aryanized'.

Chechens = 56.5 % of J2
Ingush = 88 % of J2
etc.

Also Hurrians and later early Indo-Europeans or maybe they were related to the Hurrians too, like Kassites, Mittani, Guti and later Iranic folks like the Medes, Parthians, Persians conquered the Mesopotamia many times.


The maps you posted don't even show Mesopotamia. The one I posted does.

The two, relatively small ethnic groups you named, the Ingush and the Chechens, speak languages belonging to the Northeast Caucasian language family, which is NOT Indo-European.

I think it far more likely that J2 came from the south and spread into the Caucasus than the other way around.

razor
31-10-11, 04:41
The linguistic community has not accepted the Gamkrelidze-Ivanov thesis that PIE was born in Anatolia, and the notion that the allegedly R1b Maikop culture brought this speech to the steppes falls flat, since Yamna does not derive from Maikop.

Goga
31-10-11, 04:58
The maps you posted don't even show Mesopotamia. The one I posted does.

The two, relatively small ethnic groups you named, the Ingush and the Chechens, speak languages belonging to the Northeast Caucasian language family, which is NOT Indo-European.

I think it far more likely that J2 came from the south and spread into the Caucasus than the other way around.???

I'm shocked and appalled!

You make M269 native to West Asia and Indo-European, while you link J2 to Arabistan and make it Semitic, with all due respect but that's very crazy!

Marsh Arabs in South Iraq have 81% J1 , while only 3.5% of J2 !!! If J2 is Semitic than I'm a hobbit from the lord of the rings, lol!

J2a distribution correspondents very well with Indo-Europeans (Iranic tribes = Aryans)! Where you see very much J2a is where the Hurrians "Aryanised" the previous Mesopotamian population, the place of the ancient Media (Median Empire) and later Parthian and Persian empires!

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8578/achaemenidempiremap.jpg


Inside this Achaemenid Empire you will find the majority of J2! J2 is 100% Hurro-Iranic (Aryan) and therefore Indo-European (folks between India and Europe!). I mean if there is only one haplogroup that's only Indo-European thna it must be J2! The most gifted haplogorup, haplogroup of creation, innovation and civilization and the haplogorup of many great empires.

Did you notice the greatest civilizations in Europe had much of J2a. Without J2a Romans and Greeks would never have such a great empires!

Goga
31-10-11, 05:13
Btw, hg. J2 evolved from hg. J* and hg. J* from hg. IJ somewhere between the Caucasus and Kurdistan (West Asian)! And R* is from Central Asia or something!

Alan
01-11-11, 04:01
and the notion that the allegedly R1b Maikop culture brought this speech to the steppes falls flat, since Yamna does not derive from Maikop.

Question, how do you come to the conclusion Yamna has not been influenced by Maikop?

razor
01-11-11, 04:26
That's not what I said. I think a case (not incontrovertible but possible) can be made for such influence in a couple of areas. But the cultures as a whole are quite distinct, and there is no evidence (except for a single site) that Maikop moved into the steppes. We do have good evidence that Maikop, the Crimea, Lower Mykhajlivka (and its Usatov offshoot) were definitely related cultures. The problem here is that Yamna swamped Usatov. So if R1a and R1b are IE the case for R1a as original and R1b as assimilated fellow traveller is very strong (exactly the reverse of Maciamo's preferred theory). Usatov on the other hand also influenced Trypilia (and you may remember it is the Dnister route [Usatov ->Trypilia and then Globular Amphorae and Corded Ware] that Anthony theorized as the possible pre-ptoto-Germanic route to the West. But a lot of work still needs to be done here. Gimbutas' notion that Lower Mykhajlivka influenced Globular Amphorae, and the relationship between GA and the Beaker folk needs to be more adequately investigated.