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Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 14:44
Surprisingly, the R1b haplogroup is found in some black African tribes at high frequency. This is the case of the Hausa tribe of Sudan. The tribe reached 40.6% in a study of 32 samples, according to American Journal of Physical Anthropology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 14:44
About Hausa people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people

More specific, Hausa from Sudan:

http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=12070&rog3=SU

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-11, 16:46
It's a completely different subcalde from what is found in Europe.

Taranis
15-07-11, 17:01
It's a completely different subcalde than what is found in Europe.

I was going to say the same, but you beat me to it. Specifically, the African subclade of R1b (V88) was probably the first to diverge. European R1b (M269) is closer with the Central Asian clade (M73) than the African one. It's also pretty moot to associate R1b-V88 with any ethnolinguistic group, since the split certainly predates the formation of any known language families, including Afro-Asiatic.

It's certainly interesting that this was some kind of migration back to Africa (because R1b certainly originated in Asia, either in Central Asia or the Middle East), though.

Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 17:02
In addition to the tribe Husa, R1b haplogroup has been found in Sudan between the Copts, as a proportion of 15.2% (over 33 samples), and among the Arab tribes of Sudan too: 15.7% (in a good sample of 102 individuals). Scientific Study of 2008. American journal of physical anthropology

Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 17:05
R1b it has also been found in the Herero tribe, Niger-Congo group, West Africa at a rate of 12.5% ​​(24 samples).

Elizabeth T Wood, Daryn A Stover, Christopher Ehret et al., "Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes," European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 867–876. cf. "Appendix A: Y Chromosome Haplotype Frequencies."

Taranis
15-07-11, 17:08
In addition to the tribe Husa, R1b haplogroup has been found in Sudan between the Copts, as a proportion of 15.2% (over 33 samples), and among the Arab tribes of Sudan too: 15.7% (in a good sample of 102 individuals). Scientific Study of 2008. American journal of physical anthropology


R1b it has also been found in the Herero tribe, Niger, West Africa at a rate of 12.5% ​​(24 samples).

Elizabeth T Wood, Daryn A Stover, Christopher Ehret et al., "Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes," European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 867–876. cf. "Appendix A: Y Chromosome Haplotype Frequencies."

While the fact that a subclade of R1b exists in Africa is interesting, I have no idea what you are trying to argue here.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-11, 17:11
While the fact that a subclade of R1b exists in Africa is interesting, I have no idea what you are trying to argue here.

His main purpose on this forum is to post racial lies and distortions about Spaniards / Iberians. I suspect that his behavior is engendered by primal insecurities.

Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 17:15
While the fact that a subclade of R1b exists in Africa is interesting, I have no idea what you are trying to argue here.

I'm not arguing, I'm only giving general information.

I finish with Sudan's tribes:

Borgu 11.5% (26 samples)
Nubians 10.3% (39 samples)

Ferreiro_
15-07-11, 17:20
Haplogroup has been found in Bijagos tribe, Senegal/Guinea (west Africa): 4.8% (21 sambles).

Rosa Alexandra, Ornelas Carolina, Jobling Mark A, Brehm António, Villems Richard (2007). "Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective". BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-11, 17:24
I'm not arguing, I'm only giving general information.

I finish with Sudan's tribes:

Borgu 11.5% (26 samples)
Nubians 10.3% (39 samples)

Don't waste your time. Any informed person posting on Eupedia knows where to find African R1b info. It's (very) old news.

Carlitos
15-07-11, 22:23
Perhaps Ferreiro is trying to say that the Iberian R1b gained access to the Iberian peninsula from the north of Africa.

Knovas
15-07-11, 22:26
Sometimes his mision is try to argue that Europeans are quite admixed but, of course, Spaniards are the main target. I supose the thread was trying to follow this way as much as posible.

See for example the other head, Canek (or Ferreira's Hulk version as I like to call), posting that Scandinavians have Amerindian DNA.

Serious people, of course.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-07-11, 22:28
Sometimes his mision is try to argue that Europeans are quite admixed but, of course, Spaniards are the main target. I supose the thread was trying to follow this way as much as posible.

See for example the other head, Canek (or Ferreira's Hulk version as I like to call), posting that Scandinavians have Amerindian DNA.

Serious people, of course.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, seriousLY ill people, of course.

Taranis
15-07-11, 22:38
Perhaps Ferreiro is trying to say that the Iberian R1b gained access to the Iberian peninsula from the north of Africa.

Given how Iberian R1b is virtually exclusively R1b-M269, African R1b is almost exclusively R1b-V88, I'd say this is totally plausible. I mean, theoretically there might be R1b-V88 in Iberia of Phoenician or Moorish origin, but given how rare R1b generally is in North Africa and the Levante that is quite unlikely. I you consider how rare - in comparison - even Haplogroup J1 is in Iberia, there goes that... :wary2:

Knovas
15-07-11, 22:51
Time to close this thread so. Nothing left to say, and the information about African R1b will remain for all people interested.

Carlitos
15-07-11, 23:42
Given how Iberian R1b is virtually exclusively R1b-M269, African R1b is almost exclusively R1b-V88, I'd say this is totally plausible. I mean, theoretically there might be R1b-V88 in Iberia of Phoenician or Moorish origin, but given how rare R1b generally is in North Africa and the Levante that is quite unlikely. I you consider how rare - in comparison - even Haplogroup J1 is in Iberia, there goes that... :wary2:


J1 believes that in Spain it represents a 1 %.

Anyway I am with a muscular constractura in the neck through the fault of Ferreiro, because these days if I do not answer the lame thing. But today I have changed, the calmness has come to my spirit and I believe that cabbalas can be do without having because to come to the violence, finally we might do assumptions without need to provoke or to take it so to the defensive one.
Returning to the topic, there are some hypotheses round there that say that the R1b1 is of African origin, not of Asia. In a few years can they change many theories that today are had for true?, in that thing about the genetics there is heard all kinds of hypothesis and opinions and many ideas become old in a few years.

Taranis
16-07-11, 00:22
J1 believes that in Spain it represents a 1 %.

Anyway I am with a muscular constractura in the neck through the fault of Ferreiro, because these days if I do not answer the lame thing. But today I have changed, the calmness has come to my spirit and I believe that cabbalas can be do without having because to come to the violence, finally we might do assumptions without need to provoke or to take it so to the defensive one.
Returning to the topic, there are some hypotheses round there that say that the R1b1 is of African origin, not of Asia. In a few years can they change many theories that today are had for true?, in that thing about the genetics there is heard all kinds of hypothesis and opinions and many ideas become old in a few years.

Yes, given how R1b's most oldest outgroup is in Africa, yes, one would contemplate if it originated in Africa. What speaks against this, honestly, is that R1b's outgroups are all found in Eurasia: R1a, after all is firmly Eurasian, Haplogroup R2 is firmly Asian, Haplogroup Q is also Asian (as well as in the Americas, in addition to this, which underlines the fact that it originally came from Asia). Likewise, R1b entered Europe from Asia. After all, R1b-M269 is closer to M73, and I still am of the opinion that an origin in the Caspian-Uralic region for the P297 clade seems viable.

zanipolo
16-07-11, 04:26
His main purpose on this forum is to post racial lies and distortions about Spaniards / Iberians. I suspect that his behavior is engendered by primal insecurities.

why do you say this............have you proof or only a feeling?

If he is a Galician , then recent castilian laws preventing galician to be taught in schools could be the issue. The EU ( minority languages organisation part ) is reviewing the issue. Same happened to Welsh a few years back and now ( the welsh ) they can speak welsh in the welsh parliament.

To me, trying to eliminate anyone's mother tongue is the same as genicide

Drac
16-07-11, 07:16
why do you say this............have you proof or only a feeling?

If he is a Galician , then recent castilian laws preventing galician to be taught in schools could be the issue. The EU ( minority languages organisation part ) is reviewing the issue. Same happened to Welsh a few years back and now ( the welsh ) they can speak welsh in the welsh parliament.

To me, trying to eliminate anyone's mother tongue is the same as genicide


He's not any Galician. Proof? Just read his barrage of transparent & ridiculous anti-Spanish and even anti-Galician posts. No real Spaniard/Galician would write the things that idiot writes. And he's very obviously of Italian descent. I know this might be difficult for you to accept, but to any observant person it is quite blatant.

Drac
16-07-11, 07:18
Given how Iberian R1b is virtually exclusively R1b-M269, African R1b is almost exclusively R1b-V88, I'd say this is totally plausible. I mean, theoretically there might be R1b-V88 in Iberia of Phoenician or Moorish origin, but given how rare R1b generally is in North Africa and the Levante that is quite unlikely. I you consider how rare - in comparison - even Haplogroup J1 is in Iberia, there goes that... :wary2:

Actually you probably mean "totally IMplausible".

Carlitos
16-07-11, 08:20
why do you say this............have you proof or only a feeling?

If he is a Galician , then recent castilian laws preventing galician to be taught in schools could be the issue. The EU ( minority languages organisation part ) is reviewing the issue. Same happened to Welsh a few years back and now ( the welsh ) they can speak welsh in the welsh parliament.

To me, trying to eliminate anyone's mother tongue is the same as genicide

http://www.vozbcn.com/2010/02/11/9827/empresarios-sancionados-rotular-castellano/
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/espana/noticias/847856/11/08/La-Generalitat-sanciona-a-83-comercios-por-rotular-solo-en-castellano.html
http://noltros.com/documentacion/infiltraciones-catalanistas/details/4-air-berlin-denuncia-el-abuso-del-catalan-y-la-discriminacion-del-espanol?cid=1%3Agovern-balea

He makes a mistake and does not know very well how are you the situation in Spain. At present the regional languages Galician, Catalan and Basque are used by the nazi.onalistas regionalists as political weapon and form of discrimination between the Spanish. The parents who want that his children study in Castilian cannot do it, when the Castilian is the common language of all the Spanish. In Catalonia the businessmen who label his commerce in Castilian sound fined with the so-called linguistic sanctions for the Catalan government; it belongs to madmen they fine for labelling in the language of the country, but they withstand signs in Arab, Pakistani or any other language. It is the Spanish - speaker of these regions those that need the review and protection of the U.E.

Air Berlin denounces the abuse of the Catalan and the discrimination of Spanish

Last March 8, 2006 a report of the Department of State of the United States was denouncing the clear discrimination of the Castilian in regions as Catalonia.
The report that treats the human rights in Spain reveals the following thing:
" The languages or dialects that the son are used apart from Spanish in 6 of 17 Spanish regions. The constitution stipulates that the citizens have " the duty " it of knows the Castilian, which is the official language of the state; nevertheless, also it stipulates that other languages could be official in accordance with regional articles of association affirming that " the changes of language different from the country are a cultural heritage that will be protected.

The laws in these regions promote the " not Castilian " languages in schools and governmental activities. The critics affirm that these efforts to promote the employment of " not Castilian " languages make difficult to the Spanish - speaker the power to live and to work in these regions. "

The autonomic Administration hinders the recognition of the right of the parents or tutors to which his children receive the first education in Castilian, neither reporting of the existence of the same one not even facilitating his application. Be enough to verify that the income of school preinscription, between his numerous paragraphs, does not contemplate the possibility of the parents to decide in favour of the language - Catalan or Spanish - in which they wish his children receive education.


http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=40140527952471546#
The series of video Ciudadanos de segunda (Citizens of second) reveals the discrimianción who suffers the Spanish in Catalonia.

Ferreiro_
16-07-11, 12:41
I do not listen to the team of the New Fantastic 4. They are a waste of time, they write always the same in all the forums. You know? Spain is Nordic and has no influence from North Africa. They repeat the same in all the forums. They forgot haplogroup E, subclade M-81 :laughing:.


Continuing with serious things.


Surprisingly the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b was found in black Africa, the tribe of Ouldeme, from Cameroon. Awesome rate of 95.5%. The subclade is R-V88.

Taranis
16-07-11, 12:56
I do not listen to the team of the New Fantastic 4. They are a waste of time, they write always the same in all the forums. You know? Spain is Nordic and has no influence from North Africa. They repeat the same in all the forums. They forgot haplogroup E, subclade M-81 :laughing:.

Hey, I didn't claim there was no African influence at all on the Iberian penninsula, because there very obviously is. Likewise, by no means Spain qualifies as a "Nordic" country as you call it, despite the fact that some of the Germanic peoples (Suebi, Goths) left some marks there. I just pointed out that an African origin of Iberian / Western European R1b is implausible, and I gave some good reasons for that.


Surprisingly the highest percentage of haplogroup R1b was found in black Africa, the tribe of Ouldeme, from Cameroon. Awesome rate of 95.5%. The subclade is R-V88.

Regarding R1b-V88, what I do wonder is if there is a relationship between this subclade and the speakers of the Chadic languages (itself, a distinct subbranch of the Afro-Asiatic languages). Given the age of this R1b subclade I'm inclined to think that it actually predates the Chadic languages. Another issue is that Proto-Afro-Asiatic is generally thought to have been spoken around the Horn of Africa, and not in the Near East.

Ferreiro_
16-07-11, 13:22
Regarding R1b-V88, what I do wonder is if there is a relationship between this subclade and the speakers of the Chadic languages (itself, a distinct subbranch of the Afro-Asiatic languages). Given the age of this R1b subclade I'm inclined to think that it actually predates the Chadic languages. Another issue is that Proto-Afro-Asiatic is generally thought to have been spoken around the Horn of Africa, and not in the Near East.



I don't know the heart of Africa, so I dare not say in something as concrete. My impression is that there are so many different tribes in Africa that we need more scientific studies there.

Taranis
16-07-11, 13:27
I don't know the heart of Africa, so I dare not say in something as concrete. My impression is that there are so many different tribes in Africa that we need more scientific studies there.

Well, what should be noted is that African R1b (well, sub-saharan African R1b) encompasses many different ethnolinguistic groups. Not only speakers of Chadic languages, but also speakers of the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan families.

Carlitos
16-07-11, 16:15
It might be that the M-81 was jumping to Iberia along with the R1b proceeding from Africa. One major number of a haplogrupo in a zone does not mean that it is his origin. It is possible that this R1b they were a species of Bushmen or pygmies of the epoch that was managing to grow and to expand to the whole Occident simultaneously that was going mutando, while the M-81 was decreasing: why? it would be a mystery just as it it is the disappearance of the Neardhentales. Also it might be that the M-81 was a clearly Iberian mutation that returned to the North of Africa already mutada expanding, it is possible that the place more frequent where it is a haplogrupo is not indicative of his origin.

Cambrius (The Red)
16-07-11, 19:01
J1 believes that in Spain it represents a 1 %.

Anyway I am with a muscular constractura in the neck through the fault of Ferreiro, because these days if I do not answer the lame thing. But today I have changed, the calmness has come to my spirit and I believe that cabbalas can be do without having because to come to the violence, finally we might do assumptions without need to provoke or to take it so to the defensive one.
Returning to the topic, there are some hypotheses round there that say that the R1b1 is of African origin, not of Asia. In a few years can they change many theories that today are had for true?, in that thing about the genetics there is heard all kinds of hypothesis and opinions and many ideas become old in a few years.


The average for J1 in Iberia is < 2% (Spain has 1% and Portugal < 3%). Autosomal DNA studies show that most Middle Eastern affinities in Iberia are "noise".

Knovas
16-07-11, 20:40
Not noise at all, but with the proper explanation. Middle Eastern affinities are higher than what it's read as primarly North African, but that it's because between North Africans those affinities are higher. We got it indirectly, more than what it's main "Norht African". However, comparing the total Iberian West Asian and Southwest Asian, we see that there is no significant difference between Iberians, French, Germans, English, Irish, etc., etc. Then, there is nothing too inusual; irrelevant.

Specially, if we focus on Northern Spaniards near the Pyreenes, those affinities could be really pure noise or too low to be detected, due to the pronounced isolation.

PD: Of course J1 has no role to play here.

Goga
17-07-11, 03:24
Is 'African' R1b closer to 'West European' R1b than 'East European' R1a to 'West European' R1b? I think so because in general there is more distance between R1a and R1b, than between some subclades in R1b haplogroup. But I'm not sure.

But if this is true so is 'East European' R1a closer to 'Indian' R1a, than to 'West European' R1b. It's a strange world...

Carlitos
17-07-11, 04:07
Is 'African' R1b closer to 'West European' R1b than 'East European' R1a to 'West European' R1b? I think so because in general there is more distance between R1a and R1b, than between some subclades in R1b haplogroup. But I'm not sure.

But if this is true so is 'East European' R1a closer to 'Indian' R1a, than to 'West European' R1b. It's a strange world...

I have been pondering on the topic and there seems to me very strange the scarce spread presence of the M-81 in the Iberian peninsula, it is always observed as scarce presence, scarce arrival, but and if it will be a question of extinction, going at least, could have been majority and his going at least could be related to the extinction of the nerardhental in Iberia, moment made use by the R1b to grow and to expand to the whole Occident, later at random there would happen the genetic differences in every different country or territory of Europe according to the different migrations that were taking place.

Goga
17-07-11, 05:28
I have been pondering on the topic and there seems to me very strange the scarce spread presence of the M-81 in the Iberian peninsula, it is always observed as scarce presence, scarce arrival, but and if it will be a question of extinction, going at least, could have been majority and his going at least could be related to the extinction of the nerardhental in Iberia, moment made use by the R1b to grow and to expand to the whole Occident, later at random there would happen the genetic differences in every different country or territory of Europe according to the different migrations that were taking place.
M81 subclade is part of a Homo sapien haplogroup and not a Neanderthal one. According many scientists Euroasian Homo sapiens do have some Neanderthal genes in them. And native Africans don't have Neanderthal genes but genes of other ancient extinct humanoid species that lived only in Africa. But that doesn't make any scenes, because if there was a back migration of R1b folks from Asia into Africa, then it's likely to assume that those 'modern' R1b Homo sapiens smuggled some Neanderthal genes into Africa.
There's also another possibility that modern R1b Homo sapiens came from a place in Central Asia or Southwest Asia (where Neanderthal species didn't live) and migrated straight into Africa, without any mixing with West Asian population. But I don't support this thoughts, so I think that Africans have some Neanderthal genes in them too because of R1b (and J*) folks.

But what about haplogroup I in the Iberian peninsula? Many folks believe that haplogroup I existed already in Europe before R1b arrived. Why is their also almost no haplgroup I in the Iberian peninsula. Maybe is R1b almost as old as haplogorup I in Europe and so one of the oldest haplogroups in Europe?

Maybe the Neolithic farmers never arried in the Iberian peninsula? Or maybe is European R1b much younger than Neanderthals but older than the Neolithic farmers...

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 10:28
M81 subclade is part of a Homo sapien haplogroup and not a Neanderthal one. According many scientists Euroasian Homo sapiens do have some Neanderthal genes in them. And native Africans don't have Neanderthal genes but genes of other ancient extinct humanoid species that lived only in Africa. But that doesn't make any scenes, because if there was a back migration of R1b folks from Asia into Africa, then it's likely to assume that those 'modern' R1b Homo sapiens smuggled some Neanderthal genes into Africa.
There's also another possibility that modern R1b Homo sapiens came from a place in Central Asia or Southwest Asia (where Neanderthal species didn't live) and migrated straight into Africa, without any mixing with West Asian population. But I don't support this thoughts, so I think that Africans have some Neanderthal genes in them too because of R1b (and J*) folks.

But what about haplogroup I in the Iberian peninsula? Many folks believe that haplogroup I existed already in Europe before R1b arrived. Why is their also almost no haplgroup I in the Iberian peninsula. Maybe is R1b almost as old as haplogorup I in Europe and so one of the oldest haplogroups in Europe?

Maybe the Neolithic farmers never arried in the Iberian peninsula? Or maybe is European R1b much younger than Neanderthals but older than the Neolithic farmers...

To my knowledge, never Neanderthals have been found in northern Africa. Linking E-M81 with the Neanderthals is nonsense, it would imply that all the inhabitants of Morocco and Algeria are descended from Neanderthals. Absurd for two reasons: because Neanderthal never lived in Africa and because its mixture with Homo Sapiens was small, impossible so explain rate of 80% of haplogroup E subclade E-M81 in North African with Neanderthal origin.
The new fantastic 4 are again demonstrating their ignorance. Again the same message: Spain is a completely Nordic country and Spain have not influence from northern Africa. Science has shown that both statements are lies, but they refuse to accept it.

Ferreiro_
17-07-11, 10:31
Is 'African' R1b closer to 'West European' R1b than 'East European' R1a to 'West European' R1b? I think so because in general there is more distance between R1a and R1b, than between some subclades in R1b haplogroup. But I'm not sure.

But if this is true so is 'East European' R1a closer to 'Indian' R1a, than to 'West European' R1b. It's a strange world...

Of course, 2 subclades belonging to the same haplogroup are closer than 2 different haplogroups.

Taranis
17-07-11, 10:36
Of course, 2 subclades belonging to a same haplogroup are closer than 2 different haplogroups.

It's also that R1b-M73 (the central Asian subclade) is closer to R1b-M269 (the western european subclade) than the African subclade (R1b-V88) because both belong to R1b-P297, which R1b-V88 doesn't, but I mentioned this before. In fact, you can make a very strong case that R1b-V88 indeed originated in Eurasia and migrated back to Africa, because all the outbroups (R1a, R2, Q, R1b-P297) are originally found there.

Drac
17-07-11, 12:04
The new fantastic 4 are again demonstrate their ignorance. Again the same message: Spain is a completely Nordic country and Spain have not influence from northern Africa. Science has shown that both statements are lies, but they refuse to accept it.

You mean how like the New Pinocchio desperately & dishonestly goes around WikiPedia with his "Galician77" account lying through his teeth, dishonestly altering passages and frequencies, so that Italy can somehow seem to be pretty much the Germany of southern Europe, with hardly any connections to "problematic" haplogroups associated with Middle Easterners & North Africans, while Spain is basically the extension of Morocco on the continent? I see.

It's growing Pinocchio

http://img.printfection.com/14/61714/oTdOZ.jpg

Carlitos
17-07-11, 15:43
Goga
M81 subclade is part of a Homo sapien haplogroup and not a Neanderthal one. According many scientists Euroasian Homo sapiens do have some Neanderthal genes in them. And native Africans don't have Neanderthal genes but genes of other ancient extinct humanoid species that lived only in Africa.

Perhaps the mutation M269 and M-81 they take place in the Iberian peninsula. When I speak about relation M-81 and neardhental in extinction, I do not want to say that it is a question of a genetic relation, rather of coexistence.