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archaiocapilos
14-07-11, 19:21
I was startled by the physical appearance of some Cretans, that looked almost Arabic with their long narrow faces, long aquiline noses, tanned skin and curly black hair (the archetype of haplogroup J). In other regions people had very round faces and short noses, more like North Africans (the heritage of haplogroup E1b1b, I suppose). Others still had fair hair and eyes and could have passed for French, Belgian or German. A country like France probably has an even greater diversity of physical appearances between regions. That is because the gene pool hasn't had time to uniformise the looks into a single ethnicity.
Cretans might look Anatolian/Levantine but not Arabic (Cretans are actually one of the people of Greece with higher light eyes percentage). This is a small fraction of what I call anti-Greek propaganda.
Round faces with short noses? Hmmmm, could it be Alpine R1b? No it must be E1b1b according to Maciamo... But from what I know regions with a lot of E1b1b are not particularly darker skinned than the rest of Greece (for example Cyprus with 20% E1b1b is darker than Peloponnese with 35% E1b1b / and Epirus with 30% E1b1b is lighter then the Aegean with 20% E1b1b). The only haplogroups that somehow reflect pigmentation are R1a1 and I in Greece.

archaiocapilos
14-07-11, 19:33
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays... I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.

Ferreiro_
14-07-11, 22:27
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays... I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.

I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.

Maciamo
18-07-11, 12:01
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays...I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.

Genes for phenotypes do exist. They are not located on the Y-chromosome, so there is no way of guessing someone's haplogroup from looks only. But if you mix two different looking populations, the genes for phenotypes will mix up the new hybrid population, so that after many generations some of the original phenotypes might reappear in some individuals.

Let's take a concrete example. During the Bronze-Age expansion of the Indo-Europeans to North Asia, fair-haired and blue-eyed Russian R1a blended with Mongoloid Siberian N1c. The first generation, having exactly 50-50 of genes from each side, would have looked perfectly intermediary between the two phenotypes, with darker hair and eyes than the R1a Europeans, but lighter than the N1c Siberians, thinner eyes than pure Europeans, but rounder than pure Siberians. And so on for each trait.

These hybrid Eurasians, by marrying each others, would have had children who looked inevitably more European or more Siberian, depending on how much each child inherited from each grandparent. A child getting most of his/her phenotypic genes from his/her European grandparent would evidently look more European, and vice versa. After ten or twenty generations, a small minority of individuals might end up looking completely European, others completely Siberian, while the majority would have all sorts of combination in between (e.g. a face typically Mongoloid but with blue eyes and very blond hair, or a face looking European but with black hair and dark brown eyes, or Mongoloid eyes with a European nose and chin, and so on).

Naturally, as phenotypical genes don't follow Y-chromosomes, there is no reason why the more European-looking individuals in the tribe should be R1a. Some will be R1a and others N1c, in more or less the same proportion as the original proportion of R1a and N1c lineages when the two populations met and merged with one another.

However, the important thing to understand here as far as this thread is concerned, is that the proportion of genes (phenotypical or other) present in each of the two original populations will remain in the new hybrid race. So if, for instance, 40% of the Russian R1a people were lactose tolerant, and the Russians contributed exactly half of the lineages in the blend, then roughly 20% of the hybrid individuals will also be lactose tolerant (actually it is more complicated than that as lactose tolerance is a dominant trait, so carrying just one allele is enough to be tolerant, which means that the percentage of tolerant individuals will vary from generation to generation depending on the distribution of homozygous and heterozygous individuals).

The things I was trying to explain in this thread were :

1) if the people who brought sick-cell disease to Europe were Africans that belonged almost exclusively to E1b1b (and T, I presume, as they seemed to have travelled together from North-East Africa to the Middle East and Europe), then it is not surprising to find an approximate correlation between the percentage of E1b1b (+ T) and the percentage of people with sickle-cell disease in a given population in Europe or the Middle East. However it is essential to understand that this correlation only works in a large population (at least hundreds of thousands people), and not at the individual or family level. It's not because a family has a lot of E1b1b or T lineages that they have more chance to have sickle-cell disease. What matters is the overal percentage in the country or wider region, as the gene for sickle-cell disease is located on chromosome 11 on not on the Y-chromosome.

2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).

As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 00:10
2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).

As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.
No Maciamo there aren't any Egyptian-looking Greeks( only Levantines/West Asians might have phenotypical overlap with us, that's what I'm saying)...and Cretans don't look like Arabs, they might look like Armenians, Jews, Lebanese or Anatolians but not with Saudi Arabs or Iraqis...

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 00:34
However, the important thing to understand here as far as this thread is concerned, is that the proportion of genes (phenotypical or other) present in each of the two original populations will remain in the new hybrid race. So if, for instance, 40% of the Russian R1a people were lactose tolerant, and the Russians contributed exactly half of the lineages in the blend, then roughly 20% of the hybrid individuals will also be lactose tolerant (actually it is more complicated than that as lactose tolerance is a dominant trait, so carrying just one allele is enough to be tolerant, which means that the percentage of tolerant individuals will vary from generation to generation depending on the distribution of homozygous and heterozygous individuals).

2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).

But Peloponnesians (35% E1b1b) don't look like N.Africans Maciamo (not even a small percentage of them)...believe me it's not easy to find NAfrican phenotypes there (or in Epirus).
Maybe E1b1b1a2 did not involve a large founding population but became the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans by selection, drift or chance...I read somewhere that it has low diversity which would confirm this hypothesis

Maciamo
19-07-11, 10:54
No Maciamo there aren't any Egyptian-looking Greeks( only Levantines/West Asians might have phenotypical overlap with us, that's what I'm saying)...and Cretans don't look like Arabs, they might look like Armenians, Jews, Lebanese or Anatolians but not with Saudi Arabs or Iraqis...


But Peloponnesians (35% E1b1b) don't look like N.Africans Maciamo (not even a small percentage of them)...believe me it's not easy to find NAfrican phenotypes there (or in Epirus).
Maybe E1b1b1a2 did not involve a large founding population but became the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans by selection, drift or chance...I read somewhere that it has low diversity which would confirm this hypothesis

What I wrote is clear, I think. Let me rephrase it again for you : in a hybrid population, a small minority of individuals will inherit just the right genes to look like one of the founding population. If the founding population in question came from Egypt and was E1b1b + T, then perhaps 1 person out of 1000 in the Peloponese will look distinctly like these ancient Egyptians. Note that modern Egyptians have changed due to the inflow of genes from the Arabic peninsula, especially in the north of the country.

When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg/225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg

George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg/200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg

Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg/225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg

Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg


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The blend of phenotypes from North Africa, Anatolia and Europe evolved into a distinctive Greek phenotype. These people don't look anything but Greek or South Italian (which is basically the same from a genetic point of view). Their phenotypes were especially influenced by E1b1b, G2a and J2. The Anatolian and Caucasian features are pretty clear here (but were virtually absent in the above examples).

Georgios Karatzaferis, MP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg/200px-GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg

Haris Kastanidis, Minister of the Interior

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Charis_Kastanidis.jpg/200px-Charis_Kastanidis.jpg


Stavros Lambrinidis, Minister for Foreign Affairs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg/200px-Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg


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Some Greeks look more South Slavic or Balkanic (which is basically Greek mixed with Slavic), like these :

Stefanos Manos, MP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Stefanos_Manos.jpg/200px-Stefanos_Manos.jpg

Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Avramo1.jpg/225px-Avramo1.jpg

I would say he looks like a Serb.

Giannis Ragousis, minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Ragousis_Giannis.jpg/225px-Ragousis_Giannis.jpg


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Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Dimitrios Droutsas, former Minister of Foreign Affairs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Dimitris_droutsas.jpg/220px-Dimitris_droutsas.jpg

Born in Cyprus. One wonders if he doesn't have some British ancestry to look like that.

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg/225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg

Could easily pass for French or North Italian.


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Then there are other interesting admixtures, like this guy who looks more like a blend of R1b + J2 + I1, with slightly slanted eyes and reddish hair, yet distinctly Greek.

Pavlos Geroulanos, Minister for Culture and Tourism

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg/200px-Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 11:22
When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg/225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg

George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg/200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg

Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg/225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg

Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg

Those phenotypes actually exist in North Africa because of Levantine (Phoenician, Jewish, -Arabic in the broader sense-) influence, they are not the original N/African phenotypes that existed there when E1b1b came in Greece (if it came directly from Egypt and not from Middle/East)...

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 11:32
Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg/225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg

Could easily pass for French or North Italian.
He origins from Pontus, a region with propably low frequency of Y-DNA [I-M170] but high frequency of R1b1b2-L23 (Anatolian/Armenian clade).

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 11:40
I'm not denying the foreign influence on Greek phenotype, I'm just saying that this influence is either West Asian (Anatolians) and South West Asian (Levantine Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews) either Central/North European (Slavic, Celtic, Roman). This blend (European & West Asian) combined with the native South European element created Greeks. North African element is almost absent.

Maciamo
19-07-11, 11:45
Just compare the E1b1b phenotypes of the Greek presidents and prime ministers above with their alter egos in Algeria and Tunisia.

Abdelaziz Bouteflika, Algerian President

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg/225px-Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg

Fouad Mebazaa, Tunisian President

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg/225px-Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg

Mohamed Ghannouchi, Tunisian PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg/225px-Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg

Knovas
19-07-11, 11:47
If we accept ethnic Berbers as native North Africans considering their ancient presence, quite of them resemble Europeans or, at least, look distinct from the nowadays North Africans (main appearence). I think unmixed Berber tribes are the most similar to an original North African, but there are just a few of them today.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 11:58
Just compare the E1b1b phenotypes of the Greek presidents and prime ministers above with their alter egos in Algeria and Tunisia.

Abdelaziz Bouteflika, Algerian President

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg/225px-Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg

His phenotype doesn't exist in Greece...


Fouad Mebazaa, Tunisian President

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg/225px-Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg

Mohamed Ghannouchi, Tunisian PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg/225px-Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg
They could be Spaniards or French, nothing to do with E1b1b...

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 12:21
Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg


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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg/200px-Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg
He could be the archetype of J2a not of E1b1b

iapetoc
19-07-11, 13:04
What I wrote is clear, I think. Let me rephrase it again for you : in a hybrid population, a small minority of individuals will inherit just the right genes to look like one of the founding population. If the founding population in question came from Egypt and was E1b1b + T, then perhaps 1 person out of 1000 in the Peloponese will look distinctly like these ancient Egyptians. Note that modern Egyptians have changed due to the inflow of genes from the Arabic peninsula, especially in the north of the country.

When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg/225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg

George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg/200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009. jpg

Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg/225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg

Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg/225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg


---------


The blend of phenotypes from North Africa, Anatolia and Europe evolved into a distinctive Greek phenotype. These people don't look anything but Greek or South Italian (which is basically the same from a genetic point of view). Their phenotypes were especially influenced by E1b1b, G2a and J2. The Anatolian and Caucasian features are pretty clear here (but were virtually absent in the above examples).

Georgios Karatzaferis, MP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg/200px-GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg

Haris Kastanidis, Minister of the Interior

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Charis_Kastanidis.jpg/200px-Charis_Kastanidis.jpg


Stavros Lambrinidis, Minister for Foreign Affairs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg/200px-Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg


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Some Greeks look more South Slavic or Balkanic (which is basically Greek mixed with Slavic), like these :

Stefanos Manos, MP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Stefanos_Manos.jpg/200px-Stefanos_Manos.jpg

Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Avramo1.jpg/225px-Avramo1.jpg

I would say he looks like a Serb.

Giannis Ragousis, minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Ragousis_Giannis.jpg/225px-Ragousis_Giannis.jpg


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Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Dimitrios Droutsas, former Minister of Foreign Affairs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Dimitris_droutsas.jpg/220px-Dimitris_droutsas.jpg

Born in Cyprus. One wonders if he doesn't have some British ancestry to look like that.

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg/225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg

Could easily pass for French or North Italian.


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Then there are other interesting admixtures, like this guy who looks more like a blend of R1b + J2 + I1, with slightly slanted eyes and reddish hair, yet distinctly Greek.

Pavlos Geroulanos, Minister for Culture and Tourism

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg/200px-Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg



hmmm

lets see 1by 1
Papoylias it is not easily to put somewhere, He is born in Epirus, besides it is very old to have clear characteristics,

George papandreou is looking after his mother who was not of Greek origin, if you cut his mustache he could not even look greek, by his leaps shape he can be E-V13

Stefanopoulos could be E-V13, or J Y-Dna. I believe E-V13 due to lips shape
Mitsotakis surely not E, R1b is possible
karatzaferis is difficult, from the photos we could connect him with Papoylias to an epirotan style

kastanidis , possible R1a but the fat nose litlle wories me
Lamprinidis is surely J or G but big % of being J
manos is difficult
Avramopoulos could be all exept R1a and
ragkousis is strange case difficult

chrysohoidis is typical G i Believe

Geroulanos and droutsas is surely another style, Very big forehead and tall neck, hmm that type can be found in agrinio area mostly,
naaah I influence is big
all 3 ragousis geroulanos and droutsas, could be from later times, or special areas origin like aetolo-acarnania or Serres
geroulanos could be from Enetocracy times



Those phenotypes actually exist in North Africa because of Levantine (Phoenician, Jewish, -Arabic in the broader sense-) influence, they are not the original N/African phenotypes that existed there when E1b1b came in Greece (if it came directly from Egypt and not from Middle/East)...

well to both I remember that older style style anthropology had 3 main races,
the alpine of North,
the steppe or dinaric to middle and the mediterrenean,

well according macciamo theory 1/2 of r1b people is not even looking origianl r1/b

so i take 4 women in anatolia and have 2 kids I have 4 R1b lloking and 4 r1b carriers not looking to me,
if I go to greece this 8 man will give 64 people, BUT ONLY 16 (1/4) will be same like 1rst R1b

now in 3 generation we go to 1/8 etc,

THAT MEANS IF MAN WERE MOST THE EMIGRANT MAJORITY THEN MODERN POPPULATIONS LOOKS AFTER ALL AREAS R1b pass, they carry genes from anatolia to scotland via moving generations,
But the majority of modern areas is after the mother look,
that offcourse depends on how many women they had with them,

But I believe that R1b of west Europe today does not have the original look of R1b in early times
so R1b in scotland surelly is different from R1b in Caucas,
the same with R1a
a R1a people in India have dark skin and is different than a R1a in Denmark,
the similarity depends in generations multiple and how many women where carried from starting point,

IF I COMPARE A R1a M17 (or 19) of India with a R1a same in Denmark
THE DIFFERENCES ARE HUGE,

Baltic people have mostly a saami looking, why? why in russia we find finnic elements,
cause it mostly the phenotype that was there invasion,

That is why older anthropology spoke about mediterrenean race,

now historically I know at least 2 cases thyrrenian pirates stealing Attica women, and Romans stealing the women of Savini people,

so next generation of romans would be 50% savini looking !!!!! wow, no romans at all

the temptation to find a Y-Dna is wow, although if mother was chinese he could be looking chinese
after all we are all males, and we learn to search marks on who's the kid? :wary2:

on the other some typical of IE we may found them from caucas to scotland,
but who are they?
if you live in an area of many sub culture you learn to recon people, that forces us to put people to Haplogroup,
some characteristic is typical,
the difference for example of R1a people with E-v13 by my notice is the leaps and forehead,
r1a people have at least in areas we believe are majority thin leaps that do not turn outside,
while E-V13 have opposite,
although that can be wrong, cause a boy is mostly after mother and not by father,


PS i like very much to put people in Haplogroup due to some characteristics
although it is like gambling,

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 14:01
I insist that Mitsotakis is proto-typical J2a (especially his eyebrows and nose).
Geroulanos and Droutsas do seem a little more North/European looking.
Chrysochoidis resembles some Greek/S.Italians, Georgians, Armenians (J2a + G2a + R1b1b2-L23)
Papandreou is actually 75% non-Greek (3 out of 4 of his grandparents were forreigners) and looks North/European rather than Peloponnesian Greek
Papoulias has also North/European blood in his genealogy (one Bavarian grand-parent I think) and looks like what Coon called Alpines...

iapetoc
19-07-11, 14:07
I insist that Mitsotakis is proto-typical J2a (especially his eyebrows and nose).
Geroulanos and Droutsas do seem a little more North/European looking.
Chrysochoidis resembles some Greek/S.Italians, Georgians, Armenians (J2a + G2a + R1b1b2-L23)
Papandreou is actually 75% non-Greek (3 out of 4 of his grandparents were forreigners) and looks North/European rather than Peloponnesian Greek
Papoulias has also North/European blood in his genealogy (one Bavarian grand-parent I think) and looks like what Coon called Alpines...


yes papoulias and karatzaferis have that style,

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 14:17
Haris Kastanidis, Minister of the Interior

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Charis_Kastanidis.jpg/200px-Charis_Kastanidis.jpg

--------

Stefanos Manos, MP





--------

They both look similar to me

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 14:26
Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Avramo1.jpg/225px-Avramo1.jpg


Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg/225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7% CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE %B7%CF%82_1.jpg

Could easily pass for French or North Italian.

They are perfect examples of what Coon called Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Mesocephals, long forehead, straight or convex nose, moderately tall, light to dark brown hair and eyes)

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 14:34
5031
They resemble Aristippos a lot...

iapetoc
19-07-11, 15:38
They are perfect examples of what Coon called Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Mesocephals, long forehead, straight or convex nose, moderately tall, light to dark brown hair and eyes)

correct i could say that is the typical we search for greeks inland greeks,

but they are not that big forehead, comparing them with North Europeans,

as droutsas and geroulanos who are big-long forehead,

iapetoc
19-07-11, 15:59
As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.

hmmm
considering that last Greek left Alexandreia at 1950 about (Nasser times)
and starting era is Ptolemaios we talk about 2250 years of Greek existance in egypt
no matter the slaughts at roman-christian times,
the Greeks of Alexandreia estimated to be 150-220 000 at 1950 and about 400 000 at 1860 !!!!
why it does not work and around, to find egyprian look like greeks.

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 17:24
I have seen Greeks (and south Italians for that matter) who looked Armenian or Lebanese, but never any Greeks who looked typically North African.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 17:40
I have seen Greeks (and south Italians for that matter) who looked Armenian or Lebanese, but never any Greeks who looked typically North African.

I agree, even in the islands you don't find standard N. African phenotypes. Levantine types are encountered much more in the islands and dinarics in the north, IMO.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 17:53
I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.

Only endogomous descendants of the original Berbers (Amazigh, Kyble) could pass for native European. These people today make up a small percentage (20%?) of N. Africa's population. There is absolutely no genetic clustering between N. Africans and Europeans.

In Italy and, particularly in S. Spain, individuals with a resemblance to Moroccans are either immigrants or gypsies (full and, in a few cases, mixed). Genetic studies show quite well that North African gene transfer into S. Europe has been minimal and generally very old (Mesolithic / Paleolithic).

Knovas
19-07-11, 17:58
Sometimes people confuse a very Southern/Mediterranean type with a non European group. I can understand it (except on those with a clear agenda), but just search for Basque pictures, a population with one of the highest European averages (near 100%), and you'll find many examples of what I say.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 18:54
Sometimes people confuse a very Southern/Mediterranean type with a non European group. I can understand it (except on those with a clear agenda), but just search for Basque pictures, a population with one of the highest European averages (near 100%), and you'll find many examples of what I say.
True, a lot of Basques resemble Dinaric-Meds allthough they have 90% R1b1b2a1. That's why I'm saying that Y-DNA haplogroups do not correlate with phenotype, while Autosomal analysis does... Portugese who have as much as 60% R1b1b2a1 often look darker than Greeks (don't take that as an offense, I'm just trying to prove my point) while Albanians who have the largest percentage of E1b1b in Europe are lighter than most Greeks or South Italians...

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 18:59
I don't think the Portuguese are much different than Greeks pigmentation wise. Facial features are the difference (with the Portuguese being more akin to Atlantic populations)

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 19:08
That haplogroups don't correlate with phenotype (especially when there is a founder effect) is obvious in the case of Bashkirs (they have as much as 80% R1b1a2 with some R1b1a2a1a-W/European) but look Central/East Asian instead.
Or in the case of Tungusic speakers who have a lot of R1a1 but look totally Mongoloid...
Finally if R1b1a2 is of Middle Eastern origin modern West Europeans actually resemble their native mothers instead of their West Asian fathers...Iapetoc must be right about people inheriting their looks by the female line.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 19:11
Only autosomal DNA (full ancestry) influences phenotype. Haplogroups are useful in providing information on ancient migrations, primarily.

Native population groups occupying the Atlantic Fringe tend to have similar features, with some variation in skin tone, from region to region.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 19:13
I don't think the Portuguese are much different than Greeks pigmentation wise. Facial features are the difference (with the Portuguese being more akin to Atlantic populations)
I know that but if E1b1b correlated with darker skin, Greeks and Albanians should be a lot darker than Spaniards or Portuguese (which is not true)...In fact Turks and Kurds should be lighter than Czechs or Austrians if E1b1b correlated with N.African phenotype...

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 20:05
I know that but if E1b1b correlated with darker skin, Greeks and Albanians should be a lot darker than Spaniards or Portuguese (which is not true)...In fact Turks and Kurds should be lighter than Czechs or Austrians if E1b1b correlated with N.African phenotype...

But there are also many Albanians who are darker than Greeks or other Europeans.

We need to keep in mind that genes behave randomly and are also influence by environmental factors over time.

Maciamo
19-07-11, 20:27
hmmm
considering that last Greek left Alexandreia at 1950 about (Nasser times)
and starting era is Ptolemaios we talk about 2250 years of Greek existance in egypt
no matter the slaughts at roman-christian times,
the Greeks of Alexandreia estimated to be 150-220 000 at 1950 and about 400 000 at 1860 !!!!
why it does not work and around, to find egyprian look like greeks.

Most of the Greeks left Egypt. They surely contributed some genes to the Egyptian gene pool, but based on Y-DNA statistics not much. Anyway, what are a few tens or hundreds of thousands people in a country of over 80 million inhabitants ?

Maciamo
19-07-11, 20:31
In Italy and, particularly in S. Spain, individuals with a resemblance to Moroccans are either immigrants or gypsies (full and, in a few cases, mixed). Genetic studies show quite well that North African gene transfer into S. Europe has been minimal and generally very old (Mesolithic / Paleolithic).

What studies, for example ?

Knovas
19-07-11, 20:34
I've seen also Basques who seem to have quite non European admixture, although sure they don't. That was the main reason of my post. There are lots of Mediterranean forms, some of them even difficult to imagine. Sometimes phisical appearence lies, we have examples in very different populations.

Another reason to throw down the trash absurd clown-agendas.

Maciamo
19-07-11, 20:57
Only autosomal DNA (full ancestry) influences phenotype. Haplogroups are useful in providing information on ancient migrations, primarily.


In the case of Greece, Dienekes did a pretty good job showing how haplogroup frequencies match fairly well autosomal percentages. Here are the autosomal percentages from the K=12 admixtures from the Dodecad Project (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ) for the Greek members :

- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2. The Southwest Asian component would include J1, T and some E1b1b.

In any case, even Egyptians have 23% of Mediterranean. There is no data for Tunisians and Algerians, but I am sure it is over 25%. It would be interesting to try to split this Mediterranean element in order to differentiate the E1b1b+T+J1 admixture from the I2a+G2a. I wouldn't be surprised if Greeks were about half-half for each, probably with a slight bias towards the former. Everything else matches...

Maciamo
19-07-11, 21:03
That haplogroups don't correlate with phenotype (especially when there is a founder effect) is obvious in the case of Bashkirs (they have as much as 80% R1b1a2 with some R1b1a2a1a-W/European) but look Central/East Asian instead.
Or in the case of Tungusic speakers who have a lot of R1a1 but look totally Mongoloid...
Finally if R1b1a2 is of Middle Eastern origin modern West Europeans actually resemble their native mothers instead of their West Asian fathers...Iapetoc must be right about people inheriting their looks by the female line.

Haplogroup R1a and R1b are exceptions (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25779) because their carriers have higher sperm count than other haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25816), which predisposes them to father more boys and consequently replace other haplogroups pretty fast, especially when they enter populations with a high percentage of low-sperm-count haplogroups (such as Q, which might have been the original dominant haplogroup of the Bashkirs and many Tungusic people).

Knovas
19-07-11, 21:14
The case of Greece is one case, and I don't think it's posible to get serious conclusions since the Mediterranean cluster it's too general. As I said in other posts, it's enough dividing the Mediterranean/Southern European cluster like the Northern European one (West and East), to see how different are Iberians and Southern French from Greeks and Italians (Specially Central and Southern Italians).

Looking at different Eurogenes runs where French, Spaniards, Greeks, and Italians are included, it's perfectly observable that the allele frequencies are definetely different between West and East side.

No determinant match between haplogroups and full admixture. At least, the aplication is not valid for all populations.

PD: It's important to keep in mind that when we talk about the Moroccan, Greek, Egyptian, Spanish, French, Algerian...or wherever Mediterranean cluster in those populations, we are NOT refering to the same but, of course, it's similar.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 21:32
- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Actually Greek Y-DNA is a little different than what Eupedia says so I created an other thread with all available data about Greek Y-chromosomes...
I think that if haplogroup frequencies equalled autosomal percentages Armenians would score 25% West European and Kurds would score 25% East European which is not the case...after all you once claimed that R1a in Greece is of Slavic AND Central Asian extraction (but Greeks have almost zero Central Asian percentage...)
West European 13% = 4% (R1b-U152) + 4% (I1) + 2% (I2a2) and some of R1b1a2a-L23
East European 12% = 4% (R1a1a1a7) + some of (I2a1b) + some of R1a1a
West Asian 25% = most of J2a + 6% (G2a) + the rest of R1b1a2a-L23
Mediterranean 43% = 19 % (E1b1b1a) + the rest of (J2a + I2a1b) + 3% (J2b2) + 3% (LT)
SW Asian 5.5% = 4% (J1) + 2% (E1b1b1c)

iapetoc
19-07-11, 21:32
Most of the Greeks left Egypt. They surely contributed some genes to the Egyptian gene pool, but based on Y-DNA statistics not much. Anyway, what are a few tens or hundreds of thousands people in a country of over 80 million inhabitants ?


:grin:

I don't know but 2250 surely is a big number,
and if we consider the older Avaris we go 3000,

they left some marks or they massacred at christian and later islamic times,

simply we are not yet able to see them,

on the other hand I believe that this could an evidence of another thread, of working class Douloi,
if the Greek Makedonian winners had sclaves for sexual and spread kids like wheat, surely they change a lot the icon of gennetics in Egypt,
so Greek probably had another theory aproach than Romans

spongetaro
19-07-11, 21:48
Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2.

Orcadians also have a strong med component, Dienekes says that it could be a reminder of the megalithic builders


Norwegians:
West: 68%
Med: 15%
East: 10%

Brits:
West: 66%
Med: 22%
East: 3%

Irish:
West: 68%
Med: 20%
East: 2%

Orcadian: (Suposed to be Norwegian/British mixed)
West: 56%
Med: 25%
East: 11%

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 22:23
I can't imagine you can judge autosomal frequencies solely by y-dna because you have to factor the mtdna into the equation.. BUT since mtdna frequencies tend to be much more consistent throughout Europe than y-dna overall with some exceptions, it does give you a basis for understanding.

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 22:25
What studies, for example ?
Like this one from Duanloup et al. 2004 :

" A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%."

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 22:35
True, a lot of Basques resemble Dinaric-Meds allthough they have 90% R1b1b2a1. That's why I'm saying that Y-DNA haplogroups do not correlate with phenotype, while Autosomal analysis does... Portugese who have as much as 60% R1b1b2a1 often look darker than Greeks (don't take that as an offense, I'm just trying to prove my point) while Albanians who have the largest percentage of E1b1b in Europe are lighter than most Greeks or South Italians...
Do you realize that in the study of Jablonski-Chaplin et al. the Spaniards from León (which is near Portugal) had a skintone as light as other Western Europeans ?

Maciamo
19-07-11, 22:36
Actually Greek Y-DNA is a little different than what Eupedia says so I created an other thread with all available data about Greek Y-chromosomes...
I think that if haplogroup frequencies equalled autosomal percentages Armenians would score 25% West European and Kurds would score 25% East European which is not the case...after all you once claimed that R1a in Greece is of Slavic AND Central Asian extraction (but Greeks have almost zero Central Asian percentage...)
West European 13% = 4% (R1b-U152) + 4% (I1) + 2% (I2a2) and some of R1b1a2a-L23
East European 12% = 4% (R1a1a1a7) + some of (I2a1b) + some of R1a1a
West Asian 25% = most of J2a + 6% (G2a) + the rest of R1b1a2a-L23
Mediterranean 43% = 19 % (E1b1b1a) + the rest of (J2a + I2a1b) + 3% (J2b2) + 3% (LT)
SW Asian 5.5% = 4% (J1) + 2% (E1b1b1c)

Thanks for the the update on the frequencies. I hadn't seen the King et al. study of 2011 yet, but anyway the data for Greece itself is the same as King et al. 2007. (I had a brief look at the new study and am appalled by their methodology though, as they test modern samples from Provence and call them Neolithic just because the people tested live near Neolithic sites !! Unbelievable).

Where did I ever claim that R1a in Greece was of Central Asian extraction ? I was referring to the Balkans, but to Central Asian tribes like the Bulgars, who didn't really settle in Greece (except perhaps a bit in the far north).

Where did you find the data about R1a and R1b subclades in Greece ?

Otherwise your association of autosomal DNA with Y-haplogroups seems fair.

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 22:40
In the case of Greece, Dienekes did a pretty good job showing how haplogroup frequencies match fairly well autosomal percentages. Here are the autosomal percentages from the K=12 admixtures from the Dodecad Project (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ) for the Greek members :

- West European : 13% (matches the 12% of R1b)
- East European : 12% (matches the 12% of R1a)
- West Asian : 25% (matches the 25% of J2)
- Mediterranean : 43.5%
- Southwest Asian : 5.5%
- North & East African : 0.5%

Mediterranean is a very wide and ambiguous category, that is found at high levels (between 25% and 50%) from populations as diverse and unrelated as the Moroccans, Portuguese, Basques, Italians, Hungarians, Turks, Lebanese and Iraqis. Moroccans are almost exclusively E1b1b, while Basques are R1b, Sardinians mostly I2a1 and G2a, and Iraqis are predominantly J1 and J2. In the Greeks, it surely includes most of the I2 and E1b1b, and perhaps also some G2a and J2. The Southwest Asian component would include J1, T and some E1b1b.

In any case, even Egyptians have 23% of Mediterranean. There is no data for Tunisians and Algerians, but I am sure it is over 25%. It would be interesting to try to split this Mediterranean element in order to differentiate the E1b1b+T+J1 admixture from the I2a+G2a. I wouldn't be surprised if Greeks were about half-half for each, probably with a slight bias towards the former. Everything else matches...
Maciamo, do you realize that Swedes and Norwegians have more SouthwestAsian (2.0 %) than Spaniards (1.8% )

Maciamo
19-07-11, 22:40
Like this one from Duanloup et al. 2004 :

" A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%."

OK, but where does it say that the North African contribution dates from the Neolithic or Paleolithic ? This is the part I am interested in, as I am not aware of any study testing pre-Neolithic Y-DNA in Iberia, and the ancient mtDNA we have doesn't look North African at all (haplogroups U and H).

Maciamo
19-07-11, 22:44
Orcadians also have a strong med component, Dienekes says that it could be a reminder of the megalithic builders

Yes, I agree. Megalithic builders were surely predominantly I2 and G2a. A lot of those genes seem to have survived through the maternal side, as most of the Neolithic Y-DNA was wiped out by R1b in the Atlantic fringe of Europe.

Knovas
19-07-11, 22:45
Interesting points Wilheim.

Maciamo
19-07-11, 22:48
Maciamo, do you realize that Swedes and Norwegians have more SouthwestAsian (2.0 %) than Spaniards (1.8% )

I don't see the relevance about Greece, but it is true that it is surprising to find so much Southwest Asian in Swedes and Norwegians, especially since the Dutch and Germans only have 1.5% of it. I wonder if there is a link to the high percentage of mtDNA J in Scandinavia.

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 23:13
I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.
Any Spaniard (or person who has been some time in Spain) perfectly knows that Moroccans are completely different, and are so easy to distinguish.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 01:02
Where did you find the data about R1a and R1b subclades in Greece ?

Otherwise your association of autosomal DNA with Y-haplogroups seems fair.
I got it through Dieneke's site (I don't remember the name of the paper)...but it said that Greeks have around 4.0% R1b-U152 (equally distributed around mainland, while 6-7% in Crete) and 7% R1a1a1a7 in Macedonia in contrast to 3.5% in Central-South Greece and 2-3% in Crete.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 01:22
Thanks for the the update on the frequencies. I hadn't seen the King et al. study of 2011 yet, but anyway the data for Greece itself is the same as King et al. 2007. (I had a brief look at the new study and am appalled by their methodology though, as they test modern samples from Provence and call them Neolithic just because the people tested live near Neolithic sites !! Unbelievable).

Actually King et.al paper of 2011 typed new sub-clades (like E-M81, I2*, I2a2, J2a4h, R1b1a2) for mainland Greeks too, so it gave us a better picture of Greek Y-DNA. I think that you should change data about Greeks in Eupedia and if you like the way I divide regions
you should keep it the same in your tables (for all regions to have more than 100 samples)
BTW I used Rootsi's paper about Y-DNA haplogroup I in Greece combined with the papers of Battaglia and King who typed all sub-clades of it...the same way I used Di Giacomo's paper : Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic
colonization of Europe (combined with the above papers) to clarify J2a and J2b frequencies.

julia90
30-07-11, 01:00
typical faces of the Balkans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Greece_national_football_team_(2010-11-17).jpg
people with similar looks:
Southern Italians, Bulgarians, Albanians, italians, western turks, Romanians, Serbians... less so Croatians and obviously slovenian who have different looks in my opinion

googling greek actress and actors

http://english.pravda.ru/img/idb/photo/9-133.jpg
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/27/xinsrc_38202052821444212009965.jpg
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200403/26/images/0325_265.jpg
http://sportingreece.com/UserFiles/Image/Nafpliotou%20Maria.jpg
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Sofia%20Milos.jpg
http://media.monstersandcritics.com/galleries/1221725/AYL-00037640085.jpg
http://www.greece-athens.com/news_images/72.jpg
http://hollywood.greekreporter.com/files/2009/03/melina-kanakaridescu-202x300.jpg
http://au.greekreporter.com/files/2010/12/da-Nikodimou2-e1294022709448.jpg
http://hollywood.greekreporter.com/files/2010/10/Nansia-Movidi.jpg
http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/DorotheaMonica.jpg
http://www.voice-shop.co.uk/admin/uploads/1282508381.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/249000/249787_1244573446347_full.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/249000/249787_1244573367204_full.jpg
http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/image_thumb/m/06443yg?errorid=%2Ffreebase%2Fno_image_png&maxheight=200&mode=fit&maxwidth=150
http://actor-christeas.com/Greek-Artist-Actor.jpg
http://www.gabbyawards.com/typo3temp/pics/eadd9e928e.jpg
http://media.photobucket.com/image/greek%20actor/Chanterella/alexis_georgoulis.jpg

julia90
30-07-11, 01:06
to Greek Forumers:
Does this italian actress look greek?
http://www.televisionando.it/img/mastronardi-alessandra.jpg
http://www.televisionando.it/img/alessandra-mastronardi_fiction-rai.jpg

does him (in my opinion he has less of an ethnic look)?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B4mj0mgOA4Q/TLafkuegv2I/AAAAAAAAA7Y/7ZU-8V1-BQU/s400/nicolas-vaporidis.jpg
http://www.savethedate.it/pictures/20090218/nicolas-vaporidis-e-laura-chiatti-in-un-immagine-del-film-iago-103442.jpeg

julia90
30-07-11, 01:41
Greek young school parade, we get to see common look among greeks.. i must say that they resemble italians a lot, obviously calabreses and sicilians the most due to ancient colonies... btw also in italy we have Liceums and Gymnasius :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtZuUhhPncc&feature=related

zanipolo
30-07-11, 01:47
to Greek Forumers:
Does this italian actress look greek?
http://www.televisionando.it/img/mastronardi-alessandra.jpg
http://www.televisionando.it/img/alessandra-mastronardi_fiction-rai.jpg

does him (in my opinion he has less of an ethnic look)?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B4mj0mgOA4Q/TLafkuegv2I/AAAAAAAAA7Y/7ZU-8V1-BQU/s400/nicolas-vaporidis.jpg
http://www.savethedate.it/pictures/20090218/nicolas-vaporidis-e-laura-chiatti-in-un-immagine-del-film-iago-103442.jpeg

top girl looks swabian from Germany

and 3rd photo guy , looks slovenian from gorz

julia90
30-07-11, 01:50
I agree :-D

Antigone
30-07-11, 07:05
Well I can think of arguments against all those photos,

Using football or basketball etc teams do not give a good overall example, unless the teams are smaller local teams as the larger clubs all have foreign players in their teams.

Actors, actresses and models are the more likely to have had their features surgically altered and hair colour changed than anyone. Their photos are also always airbrushed and digitally enhanced to make them look more attractive than they really are.

School parades are not great either as an example for an entire population, they are an indication of one small area only. Like Italy, Greeks differ in looks regionally. The people vary from taller, shorter, darker, fairer depending on the region, and then there are all the islands, each with their own individual characteristics.

But most of all I dislike these phenotype threads because, as ever, they are massive and sweeping generalisations. Taking a handful of photos and applying those people to an entire and varied population doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Eldritch
03-08-13, 15:09
Greeks are mainly Mediterranid with strong Alpine presence

Cambrius (The Red)
03-08-13, 17:36
Phenotypically, Greeks are predominately Dinaric and SE Med with some Levantine elements.

Cambrius (The Red)
03-08-13, 17:38
I got it through Dieneke's site (I don't remember the name of the paper)...but it said that Greeks have around 4.0% R1b-U152 (equally distributed around mainland, while 6-7% in Crete) and 7% R1a1a1a7 in Macedonia in contrast to 3.5% in Central-South Greece and 2-3% in Crete.

Re phenotypes: It's autosomal markers that count. Haplogroups only have value in tracing primal ancestry (very insignificant in phenotypic construction).

Alexandros
03-08-13, 21:05
This must be the most amusing post in this site ever! Pictures of Greek politicians and discussions of haplogroups.. This is fun!! The main point here I guess is that indeed Greeks have quite heterogenous phenotypes, maybe a bit more than other European populations? Definitely more heterogenous than British or Scandinavians and even Iberians. For Italians I am not sure, as they as well present heterogenous phenotypes. I agree with most posts that any non-European phenotype in Greece looks more Levantine/Jewish rather than north African, but still certain north Africans have Levantine ancestry so the phenotypical distinction is not that clear. Regarding the Greek politicians, I would say that all of them will definitely pass for Europeans and none of those would pass as north African. We could do a little survey. Remove the names and post them online asking for ethnic origin.. Just a note on Dimitrios Droutsas. Maciamo was right in assigning him a north western European admixture but this of course is not due to the fact that he was born in Cyprus as Maciamo speculated.. There is absolutely no evidence of ANY British admixture in the Cypriot gene pool (the British were in Cyprus just for 80 years and only a few hundreds of them - just the administration). The guy just happens to have a German mother. I quote from his Wikipedia page: "Droutsas was born on August 5, 1968 in Nicosia, Cyprus as the son of a Greek father and a German mother from Frankfurt am Main". There are Greeks looking like him however with purely Greek ancestry. It is not surprising at all, looking at the relatively high frequencies of R1b in some regions of Greece. I do however agree that haplogroups cannot determine clearly a phenotype. For example, I am Greek Cypriot and R1a, but I am not blonde with blue eyes, or anything like that..

adamo
03-08-13, 22:06
What a gay thread this is

oreo_cookie
04-08-13, 03:40
Greeks to me look like a mixture of Sicilians and Balkan Slavs. Some leaning more toward Sicilians, others leaning more toward Bulgarians and the rest of the Balkans. The more "Levantine" looking Greeks overlap with Sicilians too since Sicily also has a strong Neolithic/Levantine influence, but Greece also has more recent influence from other Balkan countries including some people with "Slavic" looks.

There are also some Greeks who look pan-Southern European, and could fit anywhere from Portugal to Cyprus.

Eldritch
05-08-13, 01:39
Phenotypically, Greeks are predominately Dinaric and SE Med with some Levantine elements.
No Dinaric in Greeks and no levantine too i guess.

What is SE med?

Greeks are Atlanto Med mostly.

MOESAN
09-08-13, 12:46
in few words: OK for saying Greeks are phenotypically heterogenous, even if dark europoids dominate - just looking (in past) at the cephallic index show us western Greece was almost brachycephallic when eastern Greece was mesocephallic - every kind of look can be seen among Greeks, even some 'nordic' and 'east-baltic' looking ones (but rare) - Greeks are tall enough as a whole, and the "panel" of faces they show includes surely AND 'alpine' types AND 'dinaric' types (more in West) whatever the combination of genes leading to this situation - old true bedwin tribes showed a general 'mediterranean' looks that took part in the formation of your "levantine" types and others (the major part of the south-saharian mixture among them is very recent) - I recall too that Iraqis, even if less heterogenous than other levantine population, are nevertheless far to be a pure arabic (bedwin) population
every population around mediterranea and the remnant of Europe show heterogenous phenotypes, more or less, what is not saying they present the same mixtures - and yes, among north Maroccans you can find every kind of 'mediterranean' look, with OR without south-saharian influences, someones can pass for Spaniards!
&: there is no direct link between Y or mt HGs with phenotypes but it is still interesting examining the percentages of them among a population, and compare to variety of phenotypes, because paternal and maternal heritage of these Hgs go along statistically with transmission of biallelic autosomals genes too... just for the fun; I think the biggest discrepancy would be between autosomals and Y-HGs because male elite drifts occurred very often in past, for I suppose

cybernautic
09-03-18, 05:11
Greeks are mainly Mediterranid with strong Alpine presence

Yes this is what applies the most in my point of view as well

Georgewalley
21-04-18, 20:04
In responding to OP I find it fascinating when people are called X - let's say the X means Arabic then it assumed as Anti-G. Am I with the G If I say your people resemble the Scandinavians or something else so this do you a favor because I say things that somehow effect a pleasurable emotional detachment in your mind, while I didn't say anything remotely different than the quoted person, just a different subject. It says a lot about you - Calling it racist may sound offensive but you negatively discriminate people of Arab descent and think it's Anti-G to mention something that against your opinion or ideas. It would be an insult to me if they call my mother a whore, yes but it's personal and I take it off as ignorance from someone. If they call my mother as British or Arab or whatever I take it neutrally given I don't find anything offensive because it's his personal experience - whether his knowledge is limited and that's the only thing he knows - let's say some people can't differentiate Turks from Saudis - in that case that person will automatically call anyone as Arab because he doesn't have a clue of what he talks about

Leandros
14-05-18, 11:44
Well I can think of arguments against all those photos,

Using football or basketball etc teams do not give a good overall example, unless the teams are smaller local teams as the larger clubs all have foreign players in their teams.

Actors, actresses and models are the more likely to have had their features surgically altered and hair colour changed than anyone. Their photos are also always airbrushed and digitally enhanced to make them look more attractive than they really are.

School parades are not great either as an example for an entire population, they are an indication of one small area only. Like Italy, Greeks differ in looks regionally. The people vary from taller, shorter, darker, fairer depending on the region, and then there are all the islands, each with their own individual characteristics.

But most of all I dislike these phenotype threads because, as ever, they are massive and sweeping generalisations. Taking a handful of photos and applying those people to an entire and varied population doesn't make a great deal of sense.Greeks arent varied in phenotype as you may think. We are mainly Dinaric, Med, Alpine with some baltic and nordic minorities.

Anything else, isnt Greek, but rather a foreign element

Y Haplogroup: I2(I-S17250)
mtDNA: U5b2a

Jovialis
14-05-18, 15:54
Greeks do not have a unified look according to me. One finds there elements from really dark (south Indian type) to blond and blue eyes, and anything in between. Its illogical to expect a Greek look when over 20 other ethnic groups are recorded to have ventured in Greece. I am mentioning few of them: Albanians, Slavs, Turks, Goths, Catalans, Venetians, Persians, Egyptians, Gypsies, Huns, Avars, Romans, Bulgarss. They contributed in Greeks gene pool in different percentages. There is a large Greek presence in NY City. But its hard to distinguish them from other emigrants. They own many Dinners in New York area. Trade oriented people in general. 80% I would say are white, southern type. The only people who can be distinguished in New York are Kosovo+Northern Albanians to a certain degree.

What I am amazed with Greeks is not their look, is the Nazi Party they have in Parliament. Their main leader is either Turk or a Gypsie

You better stop it with the provocations. I know for a fact you hate gypsies, and use it as a means to denigrate people. You know ZERO about populations genetics, and distinguishing phenotypes.

Tutkun Arnaut
14-05-18, 16:51
You better stop it with the provocations. I know for a fact you hate gypsies, and use it as a means to denigrate people. You know ZERO about populations genetics, and distinguishing phenotypes.

where is the provocation, explain to me?

Georgewalley
14-05-18, 21:20
Generally Northern Greeks like Macedonians and Thessalians have more South Slavic, Balkan looking types while the Islands and Pontic Greeks have more Anatolian, Eastern Mediterranean leaning types.

matadworf
02-06-18, 03:28
Peloponnesian Greeks are primarily Atlanto Meds, Alpine Meds and Dinarics. Nothing more, nothing less. The earlier posts on this thread are ridiculous and uninformed (and actually pretty embarrassing).

bigsnake49
30-06-18, 14:30
If you saw my father or my younger sister, you would never think we were Greeks. Blond, blue gray eyes. Or my cousins on my mother's side, one of which was a total ginger. But my mother, and my other sister and I, we do have that maybe Greek maybe Armenian maybe European looking Persian (I had a very light haired, blue eyed Persian friend :)).

Balkan1992
03-12-18, 20:07
Well, I do not know if anyone will take into account what I say, but my opinion and not only mine is that the most original Greek physical types are found among the aromanians vlachs, the native Greek population of mainland Greece, especially prevalent in the past very much in Epir, Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Greece and Peloponnese even some islands. Many Aromanians mingled with the Slavs and West Asians / Levantines.


10532 10533 10534 10535 10536

Angela
03-12-18, 21:53
Well, I do not know if anyone will take into account what I say, but my opinion and not only mine is that the most original Greek physical types are found among the aromanians vlachs, the native Greek population of mainland Greece, especially prevalent in the past very much in Epir, Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Greece and Peloponnese even some islands. Many Aromanians mingled with the Slavs and West Asians / Levantines.


10532 10533 10534 10535 10536

You have chosen people of very different types.

Over and beyond that, how do you know what the "original" Greeks looked like? In what time period did the "original" Greeks live? Is it the Mycenaean period, the Classical period, or what?

This is what some Mycenaeans looked like from the evidence of a fresco in the tomb of one of them. Their pigmentation snps match this, with the fact that warriors were always portrayed with a tan.Some of your examples don't look anything like that.
https://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/mycenaean-griffin-warrior-face-reconstructed_1.jpg


Plus, it may be more logical to guess that the most "original" Greek looking people would be those living in areas with the least "Slavic" admixture, yet you include areas like Thessaly and Macedonia?

The Greeks with the least such admixture in mainland Greece would seem to be the people from the Southern Peloponnese according to genetic analysis.

Start at 15.37


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnqfEwM-VtA

Balkan1992
04-12-18, 10:23
You have chosen people of very different types.

Over and beyond that, how do you know what the "original" Greeks looked like? In what time period did the "original" Greeks live? Is it the Mycenaean period, the Classical period, or what?

This is what some Mycenaeans looked like from the evidence of a fresco in the tomb of one of them. Their pigmentation snps match this, with the fact that warriors were always portrayed with a tan.Some of your examples don't look anything like that.
https://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/mycenaean-griffin-warrior-face-reconstructed_1.jpg


Plus, it may be more logical to guess that the most "original" Greek looking people would be those living in areas with the least "Slavic" admixture, yet you include areas like Thessaly and Macedonia?

The Greeks with the least such admixture in mainland Greece would seem to be the people from the Southern Peloponnese according to genetic analysis.

Start at 15.37


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnqfEwM-VtA



I do not know what big differences you have seen in the people I post, but you must know the majority that in times of time in the Greek territory (Byzantine and Ottoman later) the Aromanians were a significant population, including the Peloponnese, but they were elected through the Church, the Aromanians themselves have always supported Greece and Hellenism. The majority of Aromanians resembled physically, because in the past they rarely interfered with other nations practicing endogamy, having a protobalcanic physical type, unlike other Greek inhabitants who have Slavic or Turkish influences.

Lenab
04-12-18, 19:50
I do not know what big differences you have seen in the people I post, but you must know the majority that in times of time in the Greek territory (Byzantine and Ottoman later) the Aromanians were a significant population, including the Peloponnese, but they were elected through the Church, the Aromanians themselves have always supported Greece and Hellenism. The majority of Aromanians resembled physically, because in the past they rarely interfered with other nations practicing endogamy, having a protobalcanic physical type, unlike other Greek inhabitants who have Slavic or Turkish influences.
I can't imagine a Greek with Turkish influences physically.

ToBeOrNotToBe
04-12-18, 21:52
I can't imagine a Greek with Turkish influences physically.

Well you haven't been to Greece then...

Lenab
05-12-18, 00:02
Well you haven't been to Greece then...
No i've not only been to Greece but also Cyprus I could tell you the physical difference between them although there isn't much...I could certainly tell you the physical difference between Greeks and Turks and the reasons why.

Greeks don't have Turkish genes you're going to have to try much harder than that.

Tutkun Arnaut
09-12-18, 17:25
No i've not only been to Greece but also Cyprus I could tell you the physical difference between them although there isn't much...I could certainly tell you the physical difference between Greeks and Turks and the reasons why.

Greeks don't have Turkish genes you're going to have to try much harder than that.

Have you seen an eye doctor?

Lenab
09-12-18, 17:30
Have you seen an eye doctor?
Have you? What's your problem Greeks don't have Turkish ancestry you might as well say that about the entire part of Europe who didn't survive Neolithic migration from the Near East. Don't you think they have enough problems right now? Do you think they care what morons say about them online?