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rafc
28-11-16, 21:55
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Sile
29-11-16, 06:58
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1531 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1531 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples that couldn't be determined deeper than "Greek". I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,53-0,54%
E-M215 24-25%
G-M201 6,2-6,4%
G-P15 1,6-2%
I-M170 1-2% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 1-2,3%
I2-P37 8-9%
I2-M223 1,7%
J1-M267 4,3-4,6%
J2-M172 16,4-16,5%
L-M20 0,53-0,83%
N-M231 0,53-0,63%
Q-L232 0,5-1,6%
R1a-L63 8-9,8%
R1b-M343 15-19,7%
T-M170 2,1-3,5%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (36%) and the Peloponessos (32-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 22%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (28%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (25%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (25%). Slightly lower on the Dodecanese (23%), the central Aegean Islands (23%), Athens (18,1%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16,4) and Thesaloniki (19%). It's significantly lower in the northern Aegean Islands (17,6%), the Pontic Greeks (15,6%) and Crete (9,9%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (16,7%), Pontic Greeks (15,63%), the Dodecanese (13,64%), Istanbul (10%), Crete (9,9%), the Ionian Islands (9,6%) Asia Minor (8,9%), North Aegean Islands (8,9%), Thesaloniki (7,4%), Cyprus (6,9%). Lower in Thessaly (4,8%), Athens (4,6%), Greek Macedon (4,4%), central Aegean islands (2,6%), on the Peloponessos (2,4-3,6%), Central mainland (3,5%), Epirus (3,1%).

G-P15: Significantly higher on Cyprus (7%) and Euboea and the Sporades (8,3%)

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (11,2%) and in Thessaly (7,14%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (11,6%), Greek Macedonia (4,5%), in Asia minor (3,3%) and on Crete (2,8%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1,4%), Crete (2,8%), Athens (6,8%), the central Aegean Islands (5,1%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (0%), High in Arcadia (18,3%), Greek Macedon (16,4%), Thessaly (14,3%), Epirus (21,9%), the Northern Pelopenessos (21,4%), Thesaloniki (14,8%) and the north (28,57%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (15,6%), the Dodecanese (13,6%), central Aegean Islands (10,3%), Istanbul (10%), the central mainland (9,1%), on Cyprus (8,3%), in Arcadia (8,3%) and Crete (7%). It's low in Asia minor (0%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (0%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (2,9%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (2,4%), Central mainland (6,1%), Greek Macedonia (12%), Dodecanese (9,1%), Epirus (9,4%), the Ionian islands (11,5%), higher in Cyprus (23,6%), Crete (26,8%), Athens (20,5%), Arcadia (20%), Pontic Greeks (18,8%), Istanbul 20%, Thesaloniki (22,2%) and the Central Aegean islands (28,2%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (3,3%), Cyprus (7%), Crete (5,6%), Arcadia (6,7%), the Pontic Greeks (6,3%), Dodecanese (4,6%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (16,4%), Thessaly (16,7%), Epirus (15,6%), Central mainland (15,2%), Athens (13,6%), Thesaloniki (11,1%), the central Aegean Islands (15,4%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (19,3%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (9,7%), the Ionian Islands (7,7%), the central Aegean islands (10,3%), The pelopenessos (12-15%), high in the central mainland (27,3%), the Dodecanese (27,2%), Greek Macedonia (20,9%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

great post

here is something on the ionians............Eivissa Pityuses are the spanish majorca island chain

T1a1 branch that only have been found in Eivissan islanders and Pontic Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greeks) from Giresun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giresun). The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals but is not until August 2009 when the first T1a1-L162(xL208) . Pontic Greeks from Giresun descend from Sinope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinop,_Turkey) colonists and Sinope was colonised by Ionians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians) from Miletus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miletus). Is interesting to note that there exist an Ionian colony known as Pityussa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pityussa) just like the known Greek name for Eivissa Pityuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pityuses).

rafc
29-11-16, 09:26
Another small observation: supposedly the language spoken in Arcadia in classical times was closest to the Greek spoken on Cyprus. From the genographic samples it seems the both do share a more "archaic" distribution of haplogroups.

Milan
29-11-16, 10:23
I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1,4%), Crete (2,8%), Athens (6,8%), the central Aegean Islands (5,1%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (0%), High in Arcadia (18,3%), Greek Macedon (16,4%), Thessaly (14,3%), Epirus (21,9%), the Northern Pelopenessos (21,4%), Thesaloniki (14,8%) and the north (28,57%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)
I'm bit surprised for high I2 in Arcadia(Peloponnese),this being considered one of the oldest population,in Peloponnese lived two Slavic tribes that we know Melingoi and Ezeritai mostly in Laconia i guess, mount Taygetos but they seem near.Not surprised about the north,Macedon and Epyrus.

rafc
29-11-16, 12:36
I'm bit surprised for high I2 in Arcadia(Peloponnese),this being considered one of the oldest population,in Peloponnese lived two Slavic tribes that we know Melingoi and Ezeritai mostly in Laconia i guess, mount Taygetos but they seem near.Not surprised about the north,Macedon and Epyrus.

I checked the breakdown of P37 in the detailed samples, there are only 2 P37xL621 (presumably neolithic), and they are both from the Ionian Islands (compared to 27 F3145's). There are also multiple Arcadian F3145's in the detailed samples, so it seems the Slavs were settling here also.

Milan
29-11-16, 13:39
I am assuming and support the Graeco-Armenian or Graeco-Aryan (or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan) hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family,it seems pretty much they match in genetics,if the samples can be compared to Armenian we can see if this can be true and which haplogroups were the most dominant at this speakers firstly.

Armenians the dominant haplogroups from Eupedia;
R1b-30%
J2-22%
G-11%
E-6% (not very siginificant)

Roughly they match eachother,considering the Greeks encounter other population when they settled Greece and also both Greeks and Armenian admixed both with other population trough history.
I will be really interested in such study.

[email protected] You made great post and thanks,do you have any idea about this?

Trojet
29-11-16, 17:15
Rafc, great information!

Not sure if you were able to get a deeper breakdown of J2, but I would be interested in a deeper breakdown of haplogroup J2. (J2a, J2b1-M205, J2b2-M241 or even downstream of M241).

rafc
29-11-16, 18:36
I am assuming and support the Graeco-Armenian or Graeco-Aryan (or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan) hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family,it seems pretty much they match in genetics,if the samples can be compared to Armenian we can see if this can be true and which haplogroups were the most dominant at this speakers firstly.

Armenians the dominant haplogroups from Eupedia;
R1b-30%
J2-22%
G-11%
E-6% (not very siginificant)

Roughly they match eachother,considering the Greeks encounter other population when they settled Greece and also both Greeks and Armenian admixed both with other population trough history.
I will be really interested in such study.

[email protected] You made great post and thanks,do you have any idea about this?



I think genetics probably supports most theories. What I mean by that: if you would be of the opinion that Greek has an Anatolian origin and was brought along by the first farmers (a popular theory among archeologists as it avoids any later immigration) you could tie this to neolithic groups. We know offcourse the first farmers did migrate and so we do find their haplogroups in both Greece and Anatolia (and even Armenia), but that doesn't necessary mean they brought the Greek language.


If you suppose Greek came in a later migration and is related to Armenian you would need a group that split later. The resolution within G, I & J is not so high that we can clearly identify later arrivals. But there are two haplogroups that are clearly later arrivals: V13 (under M215) and L23* (under M343). There is no proof these groups were already present in Greece when Greek was first recorded (about 1500BC), but they are your best bet. V13 probably has no Armenian link, but L23*, at least in the more basal clades, is also present in Armenia. I previously suggested this group brought the Greek language in their migration in my post on V13/CTS5856, and I still consider this the most likely explanation.


Interestingly, of all the R1b+ samples 4% were upstream of M269 (from Arcadia an Asia minor, presumably Neolithic). 2% was M269+, L23-, 55% L23+, P310- and 31% P310+. The L23+, P310- was distributed over several subclades, the largest being CTS2919 (at >50% of L23+, P310-). It would probably be interesting to compare that to Armenian data.

Aaron1981
29-11-16, 18:40
Good work. Apparently some of the "Greek" regions in western Turkey also had high rates of R1b (20-25%) from earlier studies cited elsewhere on Eupedia and other websites, possibly even cited earlier in the thread. According to the data collected so far, G-P215 (of various subclades) spread the Neolithic to Europe. I suspect this was a complicated process as E-V13, R1b-V88, J2, and T have turned up in the European Neolithic period in various studies. A Villabruna male from NE Italy was R1b (xM269, xV88) and R1b-V88 spread to central Africa around 5-7 thousand years ago, probably via the eastern Mediterranean region. It appears there are many distinct farming age cultures that were distinct from one another going their various ways. I don't see any other way to explain it.

rafc
29-11-16, 18:43
Rafc, great information!

Not sure if you were able to get a deeper breakdown of J2, but I would be interested in a deeper breakdown of haplogroup J2. (J2a, J2b1-M205, J2b2-M241 or even downstream of M241).

In the more detailed samples there were 69 J2, 53 (77%) are J2a. Under J2b there is one J2b* from Asia minor, 2 Z1825/Z575+, L283/Z588-, 11 L283/Z588+ (mostly from Arcadia and Thessaly) and 2 M205/PF7344+.

Aaron1981
29-11-16, 18:54
Interestingly, of all the R1b+ samples 4% were upstream of M269 (from Arcadia an Asia minor, presumably Neolithic). 2% was M269+, L23-, 55% L23+, P310- and 31% P310+. The L23+, P310- was distributed over several subclades, the largest being CTS2919 (at >50% of L23+, P310-). It would probably be interesting to compare that to Armenian data.

By and large , Armenians are CTS2919-. Their largest group of R1b is L584. However, Ossetians are predominantly CTS2919+ as well as many other east Europeans.

Azzurro
30-11-16, 01:23
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1531 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1531 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples that couldn't be determined deeper than "Greek". I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,9%
G-M201 8,2%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,5%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,4%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15,1%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (31-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (26%), Cyprus (26%), the Ionian islands (27%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in the northern Aegean Islands (20%), the Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (21%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Istanbul (7%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Thesaloniki (8%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), Greek Macedon (9%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%), Greek Macedonia (3%) and in Asia minor (3%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Excellent work!! I admire it, is it possible to know which downstreams of J2a are common in Greece?

rafc
01-12-16, 10:14
Excellent work!! I admire it, is it possible to know which downstreams of J2a are common in Greece?

As I see they are very diverse with no clear preference for certain subclades.

DuPidh
01-12-16, 14:35
I have been watching these forums the last two days,I don't know much about Y-DNA but for what I'm reading with some easy "googles" is not something to be taken 100% for granted.I would like to learn more about it thought,even that I'm not a geneticist and I may not understand much.

Maciamo are you a scientist beyond the admin of this cafeteria called eupedia forums?
I see much arrogance on your posts it makes me wonder,do you really have a degree on what you are talking about?

Now,I'll give you some reasons on why Greeks don't trust Turkey now and if you want the EU and the USA(I won't disagree that Greece today is a country that produces almost nothing in which a lot of people entered a mismanaged public sector).Turkey has been sending Afghanis and Pakistanis illegal immigrant constantly to Greece and EU does nothing about it,NATO needs Turkey to control the middle-near East so the EU will follow,these people stay in poor Greece forever,very few of these immigrants reach Germany with the so called immigrant problem,when I was in Germany the only immigrants I saw were some Turks pretending to be Ice-cube(the rapper) and some Polish kids with skate shoes,in general people that would survive in their own countries but I guess Germany doesn't take second-class immigrants and they still manage to get a high crime rate lol,I would guess the same for Belgium.The immigrants here live in abandoned basements,piss on the roads and give you the killer look that destroys your mood before work,no they don't see you like the tanned(?) brother but as a Christian political friend of the guy that broke in their houses and killed their families.I won't be surprised if the next bombings following Oslo will be in the tired center of Athens,myself I'm not daring to visit it.Moreover,Turks are making propaganda on these immigrants in the name of Islam(the ones that got rid to Greece lulz) to cause trouble in Greece,Turks want Greece to fail in order to use the Aegean sea for trading,they invading and fishing in Greek waters everyday but again USA and EU do nothing because they need Turkey.I suppose you live in a butterfly world,eating Belgian chocolate,watching the news and trying to find the halpogroupish way to define the bad and the good guy.

What are you talking about?

Are you making propaganda yourself?Why?Are you working for some [email protected] genetics company for which Greeks isn't the target group?

But I don't think so,in my opinion you are just one of those "not so smart guys" who are bored to look at the official sources so you will reproduce everything propagandish you've heard or you'll make it by yourself.

So let's act as strict Europe AS A WHOLE,delete your forums after being exposed making propaganda-giving false information,give the right example as a Belgian to these deluded Greeks.

FORZA STRICTISCH EUROPA
DELETE THEM

Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics

Aaron1981
01-12-16, 17:01
Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics

That's not correct. People from UK and Ireland have a lot of EEF ancestry which is Anatolian in origin. The ancestry that is not common in Europe is Iran_Neolithic, which is an offshoot of CHG which spread much later in time.

Azzurro
01-12-16, 22:05
As I see they are very diverse with no clear preference for certain subclades.

Did you see any Z467? I am curious to know or if there is any downstreams of it?

Yetos
01-12-16, 22:11
Whats up fellow? I am reading this forum since is very informative who the Balkans are. I have connections with the area as well. The author of this forum Maciamo is doing a terrific job on informing the genetic makeup of Europe. You appear irritated with his writings for not god reasons. Yes many myths are challenged here since the genes tell also a story. I suggest you read about haplogroups a little more and you will appreciate this forum. You dont need to be an expert, I am an amateur as well. What the history of genes tell about Greece is that Greeks today are a collection of people, overwhelmingly from Near East. So are other Europeans. With the exception of Scotland, Ireland to some degree, all other Europeans share African, Meddle Eastern genes. So be happy, and keep reading genetics



haha and what are you?

an American?

blevins13
02-12-16, 00:07
haha and what are you?

an American?

Good questions Yetos, DuPidh in Albanian means sexual demands.....by the way.


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Joey D
02-12-16, 00:38
Good questions Yetos, DuPidh in Albanian means sexual demands.....by the way.


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Well, ultimately, it is copious amounts of fornication which forms the basis of this forum.

Azzurro
02-12-16, 00:42
Well, ultimately, it is copious amounts of fornication which forms the basis of this forum.

Joey, nice to see you post, paesanu a fascisti the Y-dna?

Joey D
02-12-16, 01:46
No, should I?

ps and it's facisti. I'm not a fascist! :smile:

Azzurro
02-12-16, 01:53
No, should I?

ps and it's facisti. I'm not a fascist! :smile:

Yes you aren't curious?

Thanks for the correction, I figured it would have had sci like Sciascia and I know your not :)

Joey D
02-12-16, 02:21
Actually, in some parrati, that ci- can approximate sci-, and a further complication is that ci- in written Sicilian can have two different sounds, but once again, not consistent throughout the island.

Fari conjugates in the present as: fazzu, fai, fa, facemu, faciti, fannu, and in the preterite (past tense) as fici, facisti, fici, ficimu, facistivu, ficinu.

That second ci- sound I was talking about above is seen in the Sicilian form of Italian fi-, e.g. fiume become ciumi, fiore becomes ciuri, fiamma - ciamma, etc. - but each of those will sometimes be seen also as sciumi, sciuri and sciamma, etc.

This special sound has a long history of uncertain spelling, and once upon a time was even spelt as xi- or xhi- (something similar can be found in other Romance languages).

Around 1575, the Sicilian poet Antoniu Venizianu wrote:

Non è xhiamma ordinaria, no, la mia
è xhiamma chi sul’iu tegnu e rizettu
xhiamma pura e celesti, ch’ardi ‘n mia
per gran misteriu e cu stupendu effettu
s’ha novamenti sazerdoti elettu
tu, sculpita ‘ntra st’alma, sì la dia;
sacrifiziu lu cori, ara stu pettu.

Ralphie Boy
02-12-16, 02:49
I'm not surprised by the high amounts of haplogroup I2-P37 in northern Peloponnese and Arcadia. Slavs settled in the Peloponnese. I'm not surprised of course by the high amounts of haplogroup E in the Peloponnese, and even a relatively high amount in Arcadia. I am surprised by the high amount of J2-M172 in Arcadia. I wonder why it's that high. Any ideas?


Another small observation: supposedly the language spoken in Arcadia in classical times was closest to the Greek spoken on Cyprus. From the genographic samples it seems the both do share a more "archaic" distribution of haplogroups.

Is this because of the general distribution of haplogroups or because of certain clades?

Azzurro
02-12-16, 05:23
Actually, in some parrati, that ci- can approximate sci-, and a further complication is that ci- in written Sicilian can have two different sounds, but once again, not consistent throughout the island.

Fari conjugates in the present as: fazzu, fai, fa, facemu, faciti, fannu, and in the preterite (past tense) as fici, facisti, fici, ficimu, facistivu, ficinu.

That second ci- sound I was talking about above is seen in the Sicilian form of Italian fi-, e.g. fiume become ciumi, fiore becomes ciuri, fiamma - ciamma, etc. - but each of those will sometimes be seen also as sciumi, sciuri and sciamma, etc.

This special sound has a long history of uncertain spelling, and once upon a time was even spelt as xi- or xhi- (something similar can be found in other Romance languages).

Around 1575, the Sicilian poet Antoniu Venizianu wrote:

Non è xhiamma ordinaria, no, la mia
è xhiamma chi sul’iu tegnu e rizettu
xhiamma pura e celesti, ch’ardi ‘n mia
per gran misteriu e cu stupendu effettu
s’ha novamenti sazerdoti elettu
tu, sculpita ‘ntra st’alma, sì la dia;
sacrifiziu lu cori, ara stu pettu.

Joey, you have a great knowledge to Sicilian grammar, where did you find it? Thanks for the post very informative on our dialect, for Fari I heard all of them except ficinu, and 100% with X, theres a neighbouring paese from Cattolica called Joppolo Giancaxio and I have a couple of friends from there and the X is pronounced like a sh', the J noise makes like a Y'e noise, is this the same for Eastern Sicilian, in terms of variation there is slight difference in my paese for refering to a young child we say a'drevù, but I am not sure if its Sicilian wide.

LABERIA
02-12-16, 07:15
Good questions Yetos, DuPidh in Albanian means sexual demands.....by the way.


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Yetos know the meaning of this word, because this word is used even by the greeks. An influence of Albanian language in Greek language.

Yetos
02-12-16, 07:52
I'm not surprised by the high amounts of haplogroup I2-P37 in northern Peloponnese and Arcadia. Slavs settled in the Peloponnese. I'm not surprised of course by the high amounts of haplogroup E in the Peloponnese, and even a relatively high amount in Arcadia. I am surprised by the high amount of J2-M172 in Arcadia. I wonder why it's that high. Any ideas?



Is this because of the general distribution of haplogroups or because of certain clades?

either Arzawa-Assuwa, either colonisation of Cyprus by Myceneans.

Leka
02-12-16, 07:55
I think genetics probably supports most theories. What I mean by that: if you would be of the opinion that Greek has an Anatolian origin and was brought along by the first farmers (a popular theory among archeologists as it avoids any later immigration) you could tie this to neolithic groups. We know offcourse the first farmers did migrate and so we do find their haplogroups in both Greece and Anatolia (and even Armenia), but that doesn't necessary mean they brought the Greek language.



Interestingly, of all the R1b+ samples 4% were upstream of M269 (from Arcadia an Asia minor, presumably Neolithic). 2% was M269+, L23-, 55% L23+, P310- and 31% P310+. The L23+, P310- was distributed over several subclades, the largest being CTS2919 (at >50% of L23+, P310-). It would probably be interesting to compare that to Armenian data.

Hi Rafc, I presume you mean CTS9219, and if so, are you able to see if any of them have tested positive for its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587? Armenian R1b seems to be L584+ in majority.

Aaron1981, Ossetian Custer is young actually and falls under Y5587 (Also knows as Eastern European branch).

(See R1b Basal Subclades project)

rafc
02-12-16, 13:47
Did you see any Z467? I am curious to know or if there is any downstreams of it?

About 10% of the detailed J2a group was Z467+. 2 samples from Cyprus, 1 from Asia minor and1 from Lesbos,no mainland, but this is a very small group offcourse.

rafc
02-12-16, 13:58
I'm not surprised by the high amounts of haplogroup I2-P37 in northern Peloponnese and Arcadia. Slavs settled in the Peloponnese. I'm not surprised of course by the high amounts of haplogroup E in the Peloponnese, and even a relatively high amount in Arcadia. I am surprised by the high amount of J2-M172 in Arcadia. I wonder why it's that high. Any ideas?

Is this because of the general distribution of haplogroups or because of certain clades?

It's mainly because of the distribution of J2-M172 (maybe they are not related at all). I have no idea why it's high in Arcadia.

rafc
02-12-16, 14:17
Hi Rafc, I presume you mean CTS9219, and if so, are you able to see if any of them have tested positive for its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587? Armenian R1b seems to be L584+ in majority.

Aaron1981, Ossetian Custer is young actually and falls under Y5587 (Also knows as Eastern European branch).

(See R1b Basal Subclades project)
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.

Azzurro
02-12-16, 16:21
About 10% of the detailed J2a group was Z467+. 2 samples from Cyprus, 1 from Asia minor and1 from Lesbos,no mainland, but this is a very small group offcourse.

Thanks very much, one last question was any of the Z467+ positive for the downstream L210+? Or Z489+?

Leka
02-12-16, 20:10
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.

Thanks!

Btw, I would really appreciate it if you could do something similar with the Albanian samples there, if you have the time and patience.

Trojet
02-12-16, 20:33
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.


Thanks!

Btw, I would really appreciate it if you could do something similar with the Albanian samples there, if you have the time and patience.

Good idea by Leka!

I would also be very interested if you could do this for Albanian Genographic samples (including Kosovo, Arvanites), if you can of course.
You may just post the results here: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30322-Albanian-Tribe-and-Clan-(Fis)-Y-DNA

rafc
02-12-16, 21:33
Thanks very much, one last question was any of the Z467+ positive for the downstream L210+? Or Z489+?

Nothing lower than Z467 was tested.

Azzurro
04-12-16, 01:37
Nothing lower than Z467 was tested.

Thanks again!

Goga
04-12-16, 05:31
This is how an ancient Indo-European Mycenaean 'Griffin Warrior' looked like! He was part of an 'elite' group in Greece.

http://i.imgur.com/pOM7X6r.jpg

8258

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3839092/The-face-Bronze-Age-fighter-revealed-Scientists-reconstruct-face-Griffin-Warrior-elite-group-3-500-years-ago.html


Who were Mycenaeans and their language?

Mycenaeans were ancient Hellenic Indo-Eurpeans. "Mycenaean preserves some archaic Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Greek features not present in later Ancient Greek."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

Azzurro
03-07-17, 00:36
I compiled another list of Greek J2 based on what is presented on the ftdna J-M172 project, the sample size is small at 82. Most are categorized under branches and have positive SNP's, and some I nevgen calculated them.

To start the people have Greece as their country of origin but of unknown location, the number is 9.

1. J2b-Z631: 2
2. J2a1-Z7671: 1
3. J2a1-Z6065: 1
4. J2a1-Z482: 1
5. J2a1-M92: 1
6. J2a1-M319: 1
7. J2a1-L70 1
8. J2b-M205: 1

Next I will move onto Pontic and Anatolian Greeks

Horasan Turkey, the number is 10

1. J2a1-PF5191: 2
2. J2a1-M319: 2
3. J2a1-M92: 2
4. J2a1-FGC15901 (J2a-Z6065): 2
5. J2a1-Z7671: 1
6. J2a1-PF7431: 1

Erzurum Turkey, the number is 11

1. J2a1-SK1321: 2
2. J2a1-Z7671: 2
3. J2a1-PF5191: 2
4. J2a1-M92: 2
5. J2a1-L210: 1
6. J2a1-FGC15901: 1
7. J2a1-Z7700 (J2a-F3133): 1

Trabzon Turkey, number is 3

1. J2a1-M92: 2
2. J2a1-PF7431: 1

Bayburt Turkey

1. J2a1-FGC15901

Amasya Turkey

1. J2a1-FGC15901

Gumushane Turkey, number is 14

1. J2a1-M92: 4
2. J2a1-FGC15901: 3
3. J2a1-Z7671: 2
4. J2a1-Z6046: 1
5. J2b-M205: 1
6. J2a1-PH1222: 1
7. J2a1-L210: 1
8. J2a1-Z7700 (J2a1-F3133): 1

Pasinler Turkey, number is 5

1. J2a1-Z6046: 2
2. J2a1-L198: 2
3. J2a1-L210: 1

Azzurro
03-07-17, 00:48
To continue with Cretan, Islander and Mainland Greeks

Crete, the number is 9

1. J2a1-M319: 4
2. J2a1-L210: 1
3. J2a1-L198: 1
4. J2a1-FGC35503: 1
5. J2a1-Y6240: 1

Zakynthos

1. J2b-Z631

Kos

1. J2b-M205

For the Mainland Greeks

Arcadian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-L1064 (PF5191): 1
2. J2a1-PF7413 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
3. J2a1-SK1366 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
4. J2b-Z631: 1

Laconian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-Z2177 (J2a1-L70): 2
2. J2b-Z631: 2

Macedonian Greeks, number is 3

1. J2a1-L70: 1
2. J2a1-M319: 1
3. J2b-Z631: 1

Attica province Greeks, number is 2

1. J2a1-PF7413: 1
2. J2b-Z631: 1

Achaean Greek

1. J2a1-S25258

Central Greece, Evrytania

1. J2a1-PF7421 (J2a1-PF5191): 1

Argolis Province

1. J2b-M205

Messenia province

1. J2b-Z631

Fatherland
03-07-17, 01:33
^

J2b-Z631 aka J2b2-L283

Azzurro
03-07-17, 01:55
^

J2b-Z631 aka J2b2-L283

Exactly, J2b-Z631 is a downstream of J2b-L283, the TMRCA of L283 is 5900 ybp and Z631 is 2900 ybp.

Nik
04-07-17, 14:30
Seems that J2b-Z631 appears more often in areas settled heavily by Arvanites.

IronSide
07-07-17, 15:34
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results. Thank you, this was one of the most helpful posts ever.

It has been suggested by some members before that all of I2c-L596 in Greece is of medieval Armenian origin since it scores the highest frequency (about 4%) in Armenians, and so the 2.3% in Greece with high 9% in Crete and 6% in Thessaly is attributed to Byzantine emperors policy of settling Armenians on Greek soil, for whatever reason.

I used to subscribe to that theory, I doubt it now for the very simple reason of frequency, if 4% is considered the original frequency and 2% after migration, then the other 96% of other Armenian haplogroups would need to be represented by a frequency of 48% in Greece (because I2-L596 would not migrate alone !!), so almost half of Greeks today are Armenian, and this is absolutely ridiculous, a founder effect is unlikely given that these emperors moved people from multiple provinces into multiple provinces.

That means it was in Greece at least before the middle ages, the TMRCA of I2c2 is between 4300 <--> 3300 ybp, the Middle to Late Bronze Age. I don't know how to explain this, the origin of my group is shrouded in mystery.

Azzurro
07-07-17, 20:54
Seems that J2b-Z631 appears more often in areas settled heavily by Arvanites.

It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.

LABERIA
07-07-17, 21:39
It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.

Trojet is the expert in genetics.

Trojet
08-07-17, 02:17
It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.

For J2b2-L283 most Albanians are under J-Z1296. Below Z1296 the most common seems to be PH2967>PH1751. Then there is Albanians under Z1297>Y23094, and Z1295>Y21878.
Z631 doesn't seem to have a big presence among Albanians but I have seen Z631 Albanian haplotypes in scientific studies. As you mentioned, there is also an Albanian sample at YFull belonging to J-Y15058, which is a sister clade of J-Z1296.
Obviously, we don't see all these at YFull since their tree is based on expensive NGS (BigY) tests.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/

With that being said, based on haplotypes I think a good amount of Greek J2b2-L283 is a combination of Arvanite and Vlach origin. I would caution that Nevgen predictor doesn't do a very good job for J2b2-L283, there is just too much STR convergence, so I very much doubt most Greek L283 is under J-Z631.

Azzurro
08-07-17, 04:48
For J2b2-L283 most Albanians are under J-Z1296. Below Z1296 the most common seems to be PH2967>PH1751. Then there is Albanians under Z1297>Y23094, and Z1295>Y21878.
Z631 doesn't seem to have a big presence among Albanians but I have seen Z631 Albanian haplotypes in scientific studies. As you mentioned, there is also an Albanian sample at YFull belonging to J-Y15058, which is a sister clade of J-Z1296.
Obviously, we don't see all these at YFull since their tree is based on expensive NGS (BigY) tests.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/

With that being said, based on haplotypes I think a good amount of Greek J2b2-L283 is a combination of Arvanite and Vlach origin. I would caution that Nevgen predictor doesn't do a very good job for J2b2-L283, there is just too much STR convergence, so I very much doubt most Greek L283 is under J-Z631.

Thanks for the info much appreciated! Okay so what I understand from your post is that Albanians belong to roughly 4 J2b-L283 lineages that are found at the moment.

I got those results from ftdna not nevgen, that was where Greek J2b's were majorly placed under Z631. I think its possible what you said, what are the Vlach J2b-L283 lineages? At the current moment the TMRCA of Z631 is 2900 ybp and it formed 3700 ybp which gives 800 years for a potential Greek line to be born, even though Z631 looks at the moment as a Northern/Eastern European line. Needless to say I think the ancient Greeks carried some J2b-L283 lineage which specific one? At the moment I speculate Z631 based on what I see from ftdna but doesn't necessarily mean it will turn out this way, anyways the question remains who would have brought it to Greece the Myceneans or the Dorians? Or both?

Trojet
08-07-17, 05:53
Thanks for the info much appreciated! Okay so what I understand from your post is that Albanians belong to roughly 4 J2b-L283 lineages that are found at the moment.

I got those results from ftdna not nevgen, that was where Greek J2b's were majorly placed under Z631. I think its possible what you said, what are the Vlach J2b-L283 lineages? At the current moment the TMRCA of Z631 is 2900 ybp and it formed 3700 ybp which gives 800 years for a potential Greek line to be born, even though Z631 looks at the moment as a Northern/Eastern European line. Needless to say I think the ancient Greeks carried some J2b-L283 lineage which specific one? At the moment I speculate Z631 based on what I see from ftdna but doesn't necessarily mean it will turn out this way, anyways the question remains who would have brought it to Greece the Myceneans or the Dorians? Or both?

I haven't been able to identify a specific "Vlach" J2b-L283 cluster, but according to scientific studies, after the Albanians, Vlachs have the next highest J2b-L283 frequency at roughly 8-10%. If we look at Greece, J2b-L283 peaks in frequency in Thessaly, NW Greece, Euboea, Corinthia, at roughly 6-8%, on the other hand it seems to be close to non-existent in the Greek Islands. So this suggests it peaks in the areas where Vlachs and Arvanites are known to have settled.

J2 grouping at FTDNA is probably a bit outdated but I'll look at Greek haplotypes closer one of these days and report back. However, I have run into a few Greek haplotypes who belong to the same subclades as Albanians, like PH1751, Y23094, Y21878.

Obviously, I'm not implying that all Greek J2b-L283 is of Albanian and Vlach origin, but the above mentioned data suggests a good amount of it is. This raises the question if there was any J2b-L283 among Mycenaeans. My guess is that if they had any of it, most likely it will not be under Z1296, as I currently see this branch having a center of diversity in the western Balkans. And therefore any Z1296 there would be a later arrival, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs, Albanians.
I'd theorize that if Mycenaeans had any J2b-L283 it will probably be upstream of Z2507, as those subclades seem to have more of a Mediterranean spread.

As far as Z631 goes, I still struggle to come up with a main theory of where it could've expanded from. Its TMRCA is only 2900 ybp, and it seems to be present basically throughout Europe, with a significant presence in NW Europe. But considering that it descends from Z1296, my guess is North Balkans and some of it may have been absorbed by the Celts, and later probably spread by the Romans also to places like NW Europe. The Tatar (Eastern Europe cluster) so far all belongs to Z631>>Z1043>>Y12000, so it seems to be a recent Middle Ages founder effect.

Fire Haired14
08-07-17, 05:59
Thanks for the info Trojet.

Azzurro
08-07-17, 19:10
I haven't been able to identify a specific "Vlach" J2b-L283 cluster, but according to scientific studies, after the Albanians, Vlachs have the next highest J2b-L283 frequency at roughly 8-10%. If we look at Greece, J2b-L283 peaks in frequency in Thessaly, NW Greece, Euboea, Corinthia, at roughly 6-8%, on the other hand it seems to be close to non-existent in the Greek Islands. So this suggests it peaks in the areas where Vlachs and Arvanites are known to have settled.

J2 grouping at FTDNA is probably a bit outdated but I'll look at Greek haplotypes closer one of these days and report back. However, I have run into a few Greek haplotypes who belong to the same subclades as Albanians, like PH1751, Y23094, Y21878.

Obviously, I'm not implying that all Greek J2b-L283 is of Albanian and Vlach origin, but the above mentioned data suggests a good amount of it is. This raises the question if there was any J2b-L283 among Mycenaeans. My guess is that if they had any of it, most likely it will not be under Z1296, as I currently see this branch having a center of diversity in the western Balkans. And therefore any Z1296 there would be a later arrival, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs, Albanians.
I'd theorize that if Mycenaeans had any J2b-L283 it will probably be upstream of Z2507, as those subclades seem to have more of a Mediterranean spread.

As far as Z631 goes, I still struggle to come up with a main theory of where it could've expanded from. Its TMRCA is only 2900 ybp, and it seems to be present basically throughout Europe, with a significant presence in NW Europe. But considering that it descends from Z1296, my guess is North Balkans and some of it may have been absorbed by the Celts, and later probably spread by the Romans also to places like NW Europe. The Tatar (Eastern Europe cluster) so far all belongs to Z631>>Z1043>>Y12000, so it seems to be a recent Middle Ages founder effect.

Thanks again for all the information. I agree too that some of FTDNA's groupings are outdated I see the same in J2a subclade, there is one who tested positive for a complete different subclade yet is still in the grouping. Am looking forward to your reporting on Greek J2b.

What is the J2b-L283% on Euboea? Euboean Greeks colonized Northeastern Sicily, Reggio area and had a couple of colonies in Campania, I checked to see if I can find any J2b-L283 in those areas and I found 2 in Catania (province) both are under J2b-Z2197 with one testing positive for this subclade, there is also one suggested to be positive in Athens (but Athens is a large city with various Greeks coming from all over). J2b-Z1297 is an upstream of J2b-Z631 so maybe can all these Greek looking Z631 actually be just under J-Z1297, on Maciamo's J2b map there is a hot spot in the ancient region of Ionia in Turkey, at least there's a connection for Ionian Greeks, Dorians could have carried a similar subclade. I think it would make sense of what you said about the Mycenaeans. Essentially Z631 is less likely at the moment. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Trojet
09-07-17, 18:17
What is the J2b-L283% on Euboea? Euboean Greeks colonized Northeastern Sicily, Reggio area and had a couple of colonies in Campania, I checked to see if I can find any J2b-L283 in those areas and I found 2 in Catania (province) both are under J2b-Z2197 with one testing positive for this subclade, there is also one suggested to be positive in Athens (but Athens is a large city with various Greeks coming from all over).

Regarding Euboea, the following is taken from here: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Korinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.


J2b-Z1297 is an upstream of J2b-Z631 so maybe can all these Greek looking Z631 actually be just under J-Z1297, on Maciamo's J2b map there is a hot spot in the ancient region of Ionia in Turkey, at least there's a connection for Ionian Greeks, Dorians could have carried a similar subclade. I think it would make sense of what you said about the Mycenaeans. Essentially Z631 is less likely at the moment. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Ok, I compiled the following Greek J2b-L283 samples from FTDNA projects: J2, M241, Greek DNA, and one from the Albanian project. Here is what I got:

Subclade (Predicted/Confirmed) Origin

1. Unclassified Tripolis, Peloponnese

2. Y15058 Greek Macedonia

3. Y15058>PH1602 Vlach, NW Greece

4. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) Greece

5. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) NW Greece>Instanbul

6. Z1296>? (Vlach cluster observed in Dukas, Albania) Greece

7. Z1297>Y23094 Arvanite, Greek Macedonia

8. Z1297>Y23094 Athens

9. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

10. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

11. Z1295>Y21878? (Albanian cluster) Artemisio, Greece

12. Z1295 (Y21878 or Z631) Vlach, Greek Macedonia

13. Z1295>Y21878 (Albanian cluster) Greece

14. Z631 Tripolis, Peloponnese

15. Z631 West Macedonia, Greece

16. Z631 Greece

YFull tree of these subcaldes: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/


I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.
It seems there is various J2b-L283 subclades in Greece. The most common seems to be J-Z1297>Y23094. Its TMRCA is ~3400 ybp. And my guess is that it wasn't present among Mycenaeans, unless of course if we assume the J-Z1296 branch expanded from Greece, which seems unlikely at this point. Similarly J-Z631 TMRCA is even younger, at 2900 ybp. So my observation about these J2b-L283 subclades in Greece (combined with the areas where it peaks and considering it's virtually absent among Pontic Greeks and in Greek Islands) remains the same, that most likely they are a combination of different migrations from further north: Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians.

Yetos
09-07-17, 19:13
I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.


from where?
you contact the epigoni of the tests?

Trojet
09-07-17, 19:21
from where?
you contact the epigoni of the tests?

I am FTDNA admin...

Azzurro
09-07-17, 19:47
Regarding Euboea, the following is taken from here: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Korinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.



Ok, I compiled the following Greek J2b-L283 samples from FTDNA projects: J2, M241, Greek DNA, and one from the Albanian project. Here is what I got:

Subclade (Predicted/Confirmed) Origin

1. Unclassified Tripolis, Peloponnese

2. Y15058 Greek Macedonia

3. Y15058>PH1602 Vlach, NW Greece

4. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) Greece

5. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) NW Greece>Instanbul

6. Z1296>? (Vlach cluster observed in Dukas, Albania) Greece

7. Z1297>Y23094 Arvanite, Greek Macedonia

8. Z1297>Y23094 Athens

9. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

10. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

11. Z1295>Y21878? (Albanian cluster) Artemisio, Greece

12. Z1295 (Y21878 or Z631) Vlach, Greek Macedonia

13. Z1295>Y21878 (Albanian cluster) Greece

14. Z631 Tripolis, Peloponnese

15. Z631 West Macedonia, Greece

16. Z631 Greece

YFull tree of these subcaldes: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/


I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.
So it seems there is various J2b-L283 subclades in Greece. The most common seems to be J-Z1297>Y23094. Its TMRCA is ~3400 ybp, so my guess is it wasn't present among Mycenaeans, unless of course if we assume the Z1296 branch expanded from Greece, which seems unlikely at this point. Similarly J-Z631 TMRCA is even younger, at 2900 ybp. So my observation about these J2b-L283 subclades in Greece (combined with the areas where it peaks and considering it's virtually absent among Pontic Greeks and in Greek Islands) remains the same, that most likely they are a combination of different migrations from further north: Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians.

Thank you for this and great job! So it changes from what I saw when you go into the J-M241 project which is more accurate interpretation. Numbers 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 13 look to be Albanian in origin and 2, 3, 6 and 12 look to be Vlach in origin which is in line to what you were saying. Which would be the majority of the Greek J2b-L283 lineages, this could be due to sample bias and nevertheless important. I don't think J2b-Z1296 expanded from Greece either. Though again J2b-Z631 seems to be the unique J-L283 found in Greeks versus Albanians and Vlachs, the TMRCA of Z631 also matches the settlement of the Dorians in Greece around 950 BC, the invasion was supposedly around 1200 BC but the settlement wouldn't happen until the Geometric period of Greece which is roughly 950 BC, its possible that this branch found in Greeks could have split earlier (probably 3200 ybp) and formed their own subclade, BigY followed by Yfull analysis would be interesting for the Greek J-Z631. We should also examine J-Z1297>J-Y23094 too, this could be a shared Southern Balkan lineage for Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks, probably originally Thracian, finding 2 in Catania (province) also makes it likely it was carried by the Ionic Greeks as well.

Daemon2017
15-07-17, 13:44
Azov greeks TOP3 is:
J2 - 31%
I1 - 14%
R1a - 14%

Icarian Porphyrogene
26-07-17, 02:16
Hello, it would be interesting if you could elaborate on the outlier of Ikaria concerning R1a-L63. Could you provide us with specific data of the Ikarian sample. I must say that I have a special interest on the matter since I am of Ikarian origin from both sides for "countless" generations. I should add that Ikarians didn't want to mix with other Greeks as they considered them as peasants (choriates) and despite the poor conditions and the harsh environment of the island they always maintained and boasted about (since at least the mid 17th century from when we have written records by Archibishop of Samos Georgirinis to this day) being the descendents of byzantine nobility.


Thank you in advance

LeBrok
26-07-17, 02:50
Hello, it would be interesting if you could elaborate on the outlier of Ikaria concerning R1a-L63. Could you provide us with specific data of the Ikarian sample. I must say that I have a special interest on the matter since I am of Ikarian origin from both sides for "countless" generations. I should add that Ikarians didn't want to mix with other Greeks as they considered them as peasants (choriates) and despite the poor conditions and the harsh environment of the island they always maintained and boasted about (since at least the mid 17th century from when we have written records by Archibishop of Samos Georgirinis to this day) being the descendents of byzantine nobility.


Thank you in advance This is interesting, I was wondering why Greek islanders are genetically different from mainlanders. Despite long common history, religion, culture and trade. Greek mainlanders look genetically closer to Albanians or South Italians than to Greek Islanders.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32877-HarappaWorld-Gedmatch-post-and-compare-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457

Dianatomia
26-07-17, 12:52
This is interesting, I was wondering why Greek islanders are genetically different from mainlanders. Despite long common history, religion, culture and trade. Greek mainlanders look genetically closer to Albanians or South Italians than to Greek Islanders.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32877-HarappaWorld-Gedmatch-post-and-compare-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457

This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.

Seanp
26-07-17, 13:29
Greek Islands were historically more isolated and free from Slavic and Arvanite settlements which had definitely some input on Mainland's population. We just have to consider the basic geography to understand it. Some Islands like Crete and Chios has had some Venetian settlements so some North Italian influence is present there.

Crete definitely has some Italian admixture because of Venetian settlements there as well as Ionian Islands and Western Greece do to some extent.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/The-extent-of-the-Roman-Empire-and-the-modern-distribution-of-Y-Haplogroup-R1b-S28-images-by-roman-empire.net-and-eupedia.com_.jpg

Icarian Porphyrogene
26-07-17, 13:36
In fact in Chios, like in Ikaria to a lesser extent, the settlers were from Genoa

Icarian Porphyrogene
26-07-17, 13:40
Interesting although I am not sure about the validity of the results on the Aegean Islanders (eastern) as far as Ikarians are concerned. Quite a few of the Aegean islands had very unique historical and anthropological backgrounds from the rest and there their geographic "proximity" does not imply common ancenstry,

Thank you for your reply

LeBrok
26-07-17, 16:48
This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.
What I have are Kretans, Chiros, Dodecanese, Andros. They all look very similar, with Dodecanese shifted a bit towards Turkey. Cyprus is totally shifted towards Near East, being "third" distinct Greek population.
I don't have islands looking like mainland though.

Perhaps Ikarias wants to share his gedmatch kit number. :)

Dianatomia
26-07-17, 17:36
What I have are Kretans, Chiros, Dodecanese, Andros. They all look very similar, with Dodecanese shifted a bit towards Turkey. Cyprus is totally shifted towards Near East, being "third" distinct Greek population.
I don't have islands looking like mainland though.

Perhaps Ikarias wants to share his gedmatch kit number. :)

For starters, I would not rate Greek islanders and non islanders as 'genetically different'. They all cluster near each other. Especially when compared to non Greeks. There are outliers though. And these are groups such as Cypriots, Capadocian and Pontian Greeks. Although one can see that they are to an extent related with the rest of Greeks, they do tend to stick out. The rest of the Greeks from around the Aegean, including those who hail from Western Anatolia, tend to be similar to each other, with some regional genetic variety. This is what you are pointing at. However, there is no rule which suggest that all Islanders tend to be of the same regional variety, while all people from the mainland are of another variety. Cretans and Ionian islanders are quite different from each other. The latter are closer to mainland Greece while Cretans are quite distinct from other Greeks (Feel free to have a look at the first age of this threat). After all, Crete has its own unique history as the island was the host of the Minoan civilization. While Cyprus was also colonized by Phoenicians alongside with Greeks and indigenous Neolithic Cypriot people. What does this have to do with Greeks from the Ionian Islands? If we are not ignorant to Greek history, it would only be expected that the Ionian islands tend to be closer to the Greek mainland, and Crete certainly would have some genetic difference compared to the mainland. While it is not strange at all that Cyprus will be different from Crete as well. So three Islands, three different subgroups.

Surely, ever since antiquity other forms of intermixture have had an impact to the Greek population. But I would like to stress that there is no unique genetic standard even in classical Greece. So we should not be to fast to point out that any genetic difference between two Greek groups shows one pure Greek and one mixed one. People have the tendency to do that.

Sakattack
26-07-17, 18:02
The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to)..
Ikaria is located in East Aegean Sea.

The truth is that islanders (Aegean Islanders, not the Ionian ones) as well as Cretans, had not been influenced (many of them not at all) from the the Balkan people that entered the peninsula through centuries. Their influences were mostly Roman, Anatolian and perhaps Semetic.

Mainlanders slightly shifted one way, Islanders slightly another and so we have this result nowdays.

This is the explanation I give.

Dianatomia
26-07-17, 18:45
Ikaria is located in East Aegean Sea.

I stand corrected. I mixed it up with another one.



The truth is that islanders (Aegean Islanders, not the Ionian ones) as well as Cretans, had not been influenced (many of them not at all) from the the Balkan people that entered the peninsula through centuries. Their influences were mostly Roman, Anatolian and perhaps Semetic.

Mainlanders slightly shifted one way, Islanders slightly another and so we have this result nowdays.

This is the explanation I give.

You do realize that this assumption entails the fact that Ancient Greeks, from the mainland and the Ionian Islands, to Crete, to Ionia, to Cyprus must have been genetically entirely identical. Without regional variety. To me that would be quite remarkable.

My explanation is that they were already shifted away from each other. I am quite sure that this can be supported scientifically. I don't assume there was no inter mixture after antiquity ofcourse.

LeBrok
26-07-17, 18:48
For starters, I would not rate Greek islanders and non islanders as 'genetically different'. They all cluster near each other. Especially when compared to non Greeks. There are outliers though. And these are groups such as Cypriots, Capadocian and Pontian Greeks. Although one can see that they are to an extent related with the rest of Greeks, they do tend to stick out. The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders. Nothing unusual here, we can see similar phenomenon in Italy of islanders to be genetically different than mainlanders. By genetically different I don't mean from East Asia or Mars, but I can recognize who they are buy eyeballing the admixture numbers. I would have great difficulty to recognize Greek mainlander from Albanian though, just looking at numbers.

Did you check the tables and PCA distances?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32877-HarappaWorld-Gedmatch-post-and-compare-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457


The rest of the Greeks from around the Aegean, including those who hail from Western Anatolia, tend to be similar to each other, with some regional genetic variety. This is what you are pointing at. However, there is no rule which suggest that all Islanders tend to be of the same regional variety, while all people from the mainland are of another variety. Cretans and Ionian islanders are quite different from each other. The latter are closer to mainland Greece while Cretans are quite distinct from other Greeks (Feel free to have a look at the first age of this threat). After all, Crete has its own unique history as the island was the host of the Minoan civilization. While Cyprus was also colonized by Phoenicians alongside with Greeks and indigenous Neolithic Cypriot people. What does this have to do with Greeks from the Ionian Islands? If we are not ignorant to Greek history, it would only be expected that the Ionian islands tend to be closer to the Greek mainland, and Crete certainly would have some genetic difference compared to the mainland. While it is not strange at all that Cyprus will be different from Crete as well. So three Islands, three different subgroups.

Surely, ever since antiquity other forms of intermixture have had an impact to the Greek population. But I would like to stress that there is no unique genetic standard even in classical Greece. So we should not be to fast to point out that any genetic difference between two Greek groups shows one pure Greek and one mixed one. People have the tendency to do that.
Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?

Dianatomia
26-07-17, 19:28
The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders.

The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?

On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.

blevins13
26-07-17, 19:58
The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in the antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.

So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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Yetos
26-07-17, 20:14
The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders. Nothing unusual here, we can see similar phenomenon in Italy of islanders to be genetically different than mainlanders. By genetically different I don't mean from East Asia or Mars, but I can recognize who they are buy eyeballing the admixture numbers. I would have great difficulty to recognize Greek mainlander from Albanian though, just looking at numbers.

Did you check the tables and PCA distances?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32877-HarappaWorld-Gedmatch-post-and-compare-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457


Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?


@ Lebrok

for centuries being hit by sea peoples (or we were?)
centuries occupied by Persians at East
1600 years under Roman occupation
200 years of North (Slav and others) raidings and devastation
700 years of Arab raiding and campaigns
How many Crusades? who knows?
400 years of Ottomans occupation
500 years of Latinocracy Francocracy Catalans Venicians Genouates

a Holocaust by Christians (Scythopolis) and centuries of ghost and witch hunt by church and executions with a simple accusasion Hellenes = pagans
(estimated more than 19 000 000 from Mediolanum treaty till even after Julian)

and still we are here

and you believe that we do not know who we are?
or you frightening us?

come on in Crimea they are still Greeks without being liberated the last 800 years


Besides we were never homogenous
our History say so
our Historians say so
some of us are Pelasgians
some of us are Minoans
some of us are Minyans
some of us are Myceneans
some of us are Achaioi
some of us are Graikoi
some of us are Iones
some of us Aeoleis
some of us are Dorians
some of us are Selloi
some of us are Makedonians
some of us are Brygians
and
some of us are half Anatolians
some of us are Half Aryan-Laz
some of us are half antique Italians
some of us are half Russians or Ukrainians
some of us are half Slavs
some of us are half Illyrians
some of us are half Tracians
some of us are half Dalmats
some of us are half Romans
some of us are half Gauls
some of us are half Germans
some of us are half Syrrians and Levant and Hebrew
some of us are half Iberians
so what?

do you think we do not know who we are?

we are the ones
'' ..... Τοις κεινων ρημασι πειθομενοι''
as written in Leonidas tomb stele

or the sons of
Minos Pelasgos Doros Achaios Xouthos etc etc
choose who you like?


my Friend
CAN YOU TELL ME ANOTHER NATION THAT RESIST OCCUPATION AND STILL ACHIEVES SO MANY YEARS?

our true enemy is one
ΜΗΔΙΖΕΙΝ (living in big luxury)
ΠΡΟΣΚΥΝΕΙΝ (learn to bent or kneel)


PS
if you are jeallous do not worry
you can be one of us,
only you have to do is accept Greek παιδεια (way of life),
and then start to think

Sile
26-07-17, 20:25
This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.

Your mixed up..........Samos is part of the Dodecanese and not the Ionian island group

Sile
26-07-17, 20:29
Greek Islands were historically more isolated and free from Slavic and Arvanite settlements which had definitely some input on Mainland's population. We just have to consider the basic geography to understand it. Some Islands like Crete and Chios has had some Venetian settlements so some North Italian influence is present there.

Crete definitely has some Italian admixture because of Venetian settlements there as well as Ionian Islands and Western Greece do to some extent.

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/The-extent-of-the-Roman-Empire-and-the-modern-distribution-of-Y-Haplogroup-R1b-S28-images-by-roman-empire.net-and-eupedia.com_.jpg

crete and ionion island group and corfu have venetian settlements..............the dodecanese island group plus lesbos has Genoese settlements , but the dodecanese also has recent italian settlements from 1911 until IIRC 1945

Sile
26-07-17, 20:38
So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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a lot of Tosks settled in the Morea from the 13th century

Dianatomia
26-07-17, 20:59
So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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The Arvanites which have settled in some area's in Greece did not particularly shift mainland Greeks away from Islanders, since the Arvanites overlapped with mainland Greeks in the first place. Greeks from Crete, even though quite related to mainland Greeks, would still have had more impact on mainland Greeks genetically, than Arvanites. So many regions and Islands close to mainland Greece were never settled by Arvanites and they still are closer to (South) Albanians than to Eastern Islanders and especially Cretans or Cypriots. Albania and mainland Greece simply essentially belonged to the same genetic mainframe due to older migrations. And for this same reason Crete, the eastern Islands and Cyprus were never identical to the mainland. They were simply colonized by mainland Greeks and absorbed into the Hellenic cultural mainframe. Or rather, their culture and the mainland Greek culture intermixed and formed the Hellenic body. Zeus for example is a figure from Cretan mythology.

On the other hand Slavs may have had some impact on mainland Greeks (or Albanians for that matter). But still, comparing islands near mainland Greece to mainland Greece, one can see that they differ quite little. So in general I think that the biological impact was quite moderate. Lastly, I never argued that there was no genetic impact since antiquity. There was simply some genetic variety already in ancient times.

Yetos
26-07-17, 21:19
So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


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@ Blevins

Although I have many arques about dates and times and origin

the one who should read the link you post is someone in forum we both know,
cause have enough accuracy but also some mistakes.

the first Arbanites were Gegs who went to Theba at 1240 about bu Ducchy of Athens
after the entered Attica at 1380 by Peter of Aragonia
and after 1400 pass to Peloponese from the above by Palaiologos license
after 1425 they expand to all over Venicians had colonies,
and venicians bring more from Adriatic sea to a population estimated about 10 000 souls at Venician castle and colonies around peloponese Evoia and Attica.
until 1460 these Arbanites are part of venician castle forces,
almost majority of them were Hellenised by the 1800, and to some big and strong homogenous villages after WW1.


the second, of Albanian speakers, wave is much later mainly by christian Tosks and Vlachs (Arvantovlachs) who were pressed by Muslims
infact around 1680 till Ali Pasha times, waves of Greeks Slavs Vlachs Albanians migrate to Greece, with their villages burnt down at Epiros and Albania
search the Moschopolis case, and many other,
an ethnic religious cleansing that happened there, created devastation,
read N Kasomoulis memories, you will find many interesting on what was going on that time.


Simon Simeonsis mentions at 1300 about AD that at Dyrrachion all were Christians
and major population was speaking Latin
secondary were Greeks
and also existed Albanensis

the times after Kastrioti
and the time of the second wave happened a big cleansing there,
and you know it.

The 3rd wave is the times of Orlov's till 1923.
these were pure Albanians who served Ottomans, or equal to Ottomans etc etc
most of them went away, or exchanged, or even kicked off.
like the Lalla ones,
remember that Ottoman supressing forces, at 1820 were mostly Albanian soldiers and Albanian officers.
and there were battles that both armies used Albanian to comunicate each other.

blevins13
26-07-17, 21:47
@ Blevins

Although I have many arques about dates and times and origin

the one who should read the link you post is someone in forum we both know,
cause have enough accuracy but also some mistakes.

the first Arbanites were Gegs who went to Theba at 1240 about bu Ducchy of Athens
after the entered Attica at 1380 by Peter of Aragonia
and after 1400 pass to Peloponese from the above by Palaiologos license
after 1425 they expand to all over Venicians had colonies,
and venicians bring more from Adriatic sea to a population estimated about 10 000 souls at Venician castle and colonies around peloponese Evoia and Attica.
until 1460 these Arbanites are part of venician castle forces,
almost majority of them were Hellenised by the 1800, and to some big and strong homogenous villages after WW1.


the second, of Albanian speakers, wave is much later mainly by christian Tosks and Vlachs (Arvantovlachs) who were pressed by Muslims
infact around 1680 till Ali Pasha times, waves of Greeks Slavs Vlachs Albanians migrate to Greece, with their villages burnt down at Epiros and Albania
search the Moschopolis case, and many other,
an ethnic religious cleansing that happened there, created devastation,
read N Kasomoulis memories, you will find many interesting on what was going on that time.


Simon Simeonsis mentions at 1300 about AD that at Dyrrachion all were Christians
and major population was speaking Latin
secondary were Greeks
and also existed Albanensis

the times after Kastrioti
and the time of the second wave happened a big cleansing there,
and you know it.

The 3rd wave is the times of Orlov's till 1923.
these were pure Albanians who served Ottomans, or equal to Ottomans etc etc
most of them went away, or exchanged, or even kicked off.
like the Lalla ones,
remember that Ottoman supressing forces, at 1820 were mostly Albanian soldiers and Albanian officers.
and there were battles that both armies used Albanian to comunicate each other.

My argument is that the genetic footprints of Albanian in Greece is quite substantial.....


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blevins13
26-07-17, 21:52
The Arvanites which have settled in some area's in Greece did not particularly shift mainland Greeks away from Islanders, since the Arvanites overlapped with mainland Greeks in the first place. Greeks from Crete, even though quite related to mainland Greeks, would still have had more impact on mainland Greeks genetically, than Arvanites. So many regions and Islands close to mainland Greece were never settled by Arvanites and they still are closer to (South) Albanians than to Eastern Islanders and especially Cretans or Cypriots. Albania and mainland Greece simply essentially belonged to the same genetic mainframe due to older migrations. And for this same reason Crete, the eastern Islands and Cyprus were never identical to the mainland. They were simply colonized by mainland Greeks and absorbed into the Hellenic cultural mainframe. Or rather, their culture and the mainland Greek culture intermixed and formed the Hellenic body. Zeus for example is a figure from Cretan mythology.

On the other hand Slavs may have had some impact on mainland Greeks (or Albanians for that matter). But still, comparing islands near mainland Greece to mainland Greece, one can see that they differ quite little. So in general I think that the biological impact was quite moderate. Lastly, I never argued that there was no genetic impact since antiquity. There was simply some genetic variety already in ancient times.

Is this a true or not?
In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]


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A. Papadimitriou
26-07-17, 22:04
My argument is that the genetic footprints of Albanian in Greece is quite substantial.....


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You feel better when you think that?


Is this a true or not?
In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]


It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.

blevins13
26-07-17, 22:23
You feel better when you think that?



It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.

Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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Yetos
26-07-17, 22:30
Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania

blevins13
26-07-17, 22:52
Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania


I tend to refuse this without convincing evidence.....Greek culture lost from Albanian supremacy....very improbable scenario.


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blevins13
26-07-17, 22:54
Don't have such furry

cause genetics can work vise-versa

I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
but you did not notice it

we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
especially with Tosks and Liapides

as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania


I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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Yetos
26-07-17, 22:56
I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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Simon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

Goranjie or Torbesh are the muslim Slavs of Albania

and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

but forced assimilation,

Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
and watch today.

LeBrok
26-07-17, 23:18
The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.Not much to argue about here then, we can only speculate when and how genetic changes or drifts happened. I'm not sure if we can talk about substantial population genetic drift on Greek Islands, even if the most secluded population in Europe, Sardinians, are still plotting very close to European Neolithic. Greek genetics is more likely product of population migration and mixing than independent drift of secluded population.

Fact:
From all the samples of today and ancient, Cypriots are the closest match to Chalcolithic Anatolia. My take on it is that, they are mostly Chalcolithic Anatolia with Near Eastern influence afterwards.

My speculation:
We don't have ancient match for Greek Islanders (yet), but my guess would be they are genetically stuck in Bronze Age.
Mainland represents processes from Iron Age onward, with Albanians going through similar ones.
Or Islanders are everything that happened till end of Greek Empire, and Mainland is last 2ky?

Seanp
26-07-17, 23:54
Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

https://s31.postimg.org/eid6xv8kr/13770535_690365121117806_5102015285444749814_n.jpg

Kingslav
27-07-17, 00:02
Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

https://s31.postimg.org/eid6xv8kr/13770535_690365121117806_5102015285444749814_n.jpg

We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

blevins13
27-07-17, 00:11
Simon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

Goranjie or Torbesh are the muslim Slavs of Albania

and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

but forced assimilation,

Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
and watch today.

My argument here was that whoever went or occupied china became Chinese, this is valid for Greece as well...considering history, assimilation of other people's from Albanians are rare or not existent.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

noman
27-07-17, 01:23
What was the Y DNA haplogroup of ALexander The Great? I read an article that his father's tomb was found.

LeBrok
27-07-17, 02:44
We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD. Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.

Angela
27-07-17, 04:23
We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

Where have you been?

Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..

Leka
27-07-17, 05:05
The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.


I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).

Kingslav
27-07-17, 05:17
Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.

Oh no Lebrok, is this some sort of R1AvsR1B message war lol. Truth is im Indo-European but my Y-DNA has survived in continental Europe the longest and has remained I2A-DIN even after mingling with Indo-Europeans than this new Slavic race assimilated in Greece and the proof is found in modern Greek DNA has Slavic admixture exceeding 15%, besides the proof is found in the map.

Kingslav
27-07-17, 05:31
What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

Where have you been?

Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..

This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.

Yetos
27-07-17, 06:38
We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.


Kingslav

one think to remember

J and I are from the same Hg IJ

Ralphie Boy
27-07-17, 07:04
To continue with Cretan, Islander and Mainland Greeks

Crete, the number is 9

1. J2a1-M319: 4
2. J2a1-L210: 1
3. J2a1-L198: 1
4. J2a1-FGC35503: 1
5. J2a1-Y6240: 1

Zakynthos

1. J2b-Z631

Kos

1. J2b-M205

For the Mainland Greeks

Arcadian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-L1064 (PF5191): 1
2. J2a1-PF7413 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
3. J2a1-SK1366 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
4. J2b-Z631: 1

Laconian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-Z2177 (J2a1-L70): 2
2. J2b-Z631: 2

Macedonian Greeks, number is 3

1. J2a1-L70: 1
2. J2a1-M319: 1
3. J2b-Z631: 1

Attica province Greeks, number is 2

1. J2a1-PF7413: 1
2. J2b-Z631: 1

Achaean Greek

1. J2a1-S25258

Central Greece, Evrytania

1. J2a1-PF7421 (J2a1-PF5191): 1

Argolis Province

1. J2b-M205

Messenia province

1. J2b-Z631

Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

Kingslav
27-07-17, 08:27
Kingslav

one think to remember

J and I are from the same Hg IJ

PuntDNAL K12 Ancient- Kingslav

Population

Sub-Saharan 0.12
Amerindian 2.49
South_Asian 1.29
Near_East 2.70
Siberian 0.34
European_HG 42.95
Caucasus_HG 21.27
South_African_HG 0.20
Anatolian_NF 28.51*****
East_Asian 0.13
Oceanian -
Beringian -


Exactly, to my next point, here my puntDNAL K12 Ancient, this for someone who scores 99.5% East Europe with Ancestry.

28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.

And likely an advanced civilization around the Black Sea, natural disaster likely took this civilization from it's glory. Definite possibility of superiority over people living in this region, we Slavs inherit the Southern Euro + Steppe genes, and no other group clusters close to us, or shares this combo.

Angela
27-07-17, 14:54
This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.

What is deflection, that you don't even know when the Indo-Europeans arrived?


28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.


Is this a joke? How on earth does someone who identifies as a Slav having some Anatolian farmer prove Slavs were in the coastal Mediterranean for millennia? TRB almost pure farmers like Gok got all the way to Sweden. The farmer input went north; the Slavs didn't need to go south to get it. They already had it, although they might have picked up more.

There was no SLAV civilization on the Black Sea. You're not a pure Indo-European. The highest percentage of Indo-European in Europe doesn't get over 50%, and that's in Latvians, perhaps and Scandinavians.

Azzurro
27-07-17, 18:14
Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

When it comes to J2a it is a very diverse haplogroup there are many subclades, from 6000-3000 ybp there is 57 different subclades expanding which is a lot to cover, as Maciamo has hypothesized a good portion or majority probably expanded with the Kura Araxes Culture, which would of gone east, west and south, potentially starting up the Minoan Civilization, at least in Crete based on J2a being the most populous line there it can be dated to the Minoan period. In the mainland there probably was some influence from Minoan Crete (maybe minor migrations), Minyans would be the next source of J2a in Mainland Greece. There is also the question with the Pelasgians who themselves would have probably carried some J2a. Now the problem also with Greek J2a is that unfortunately not too many did deep testing and there is not enough samples from Greece to even say this subclade of J2a is the Greek one, though through my research looking at the J2a in Cyprus (you can see it in the thread of Greek and Turkish Cypriot Y which is the paper you quoted), these samples from ftdna and Crete, subclades of J2a1-PF5191 seems to be found in all three. Which is interesting.

Dianatomia
27-07-17, 21:22
I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html


The Tosks and Gheghs differ considerably from each other. Tosks are almost identical to mainland Greeks. Arbaresh and Gheghs are not even remotely related.

Consider that Tosks and Gheghs live alongside each other. The differences are tremendous. The whole of mainland Greece does not have variety in this proportion. Tosks seem like a variety of Greeks. The border between Albania and Greece are invisible genetically. This is because archaic foundations.

Angela
27-07-17, 22:01
You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?

Leka
27-07-17, 23:48
You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?

Lol I honestly thought he had something up his sleeve that I haven't seen yet. Exactly, bottle necks, founder effects and external influences play their part and even region from region in Ghegnia alone you could find such differences - especially in the north where compact clans dominated in the past. Plus one needs to analyse those uniparental markers in detail, clusters and subclusters, which I doubt he even looked into it, to be able to tell if we actually differ. For example majority of J2 in Greeks is actually J2a which Tosks totally lack etc.

Not that I know of, at least not in descent number anyway. But judging by the samples at gedmatch from both sides there isn't any substantial difference, at least that I could detect.

Leka
28-07-17, 00:14
To reiterate so my point is more clear and all members here understand, I will use as an example one of the halpogroups you mentioned: V13 for example expanded/diversified during bronze age, two of its most successful branches, E-Z5017 and E-Z5018, formed about 4000 years ago. Hypothetically speaking, since you haven't analyse the data in detail, Tosks and Ghegs samples could all be under E-Z5017 while Greeks under Z-Z5018. You understand now how irrelevant your percentages are, right?

Just because they have less of it doesn't make them closer to Greeks or any other population for that matter.

Corrado
28-07-17, 01:05
The major distinction between Gheg and Tosk Albanians is that Tosks have an elevated level of seemingly Slavic Y-Dna (R1a and I2a) to Ghegs, who are pretty much 80-90% E-V13, J2b2, and R1b. Now the latter three Y-Dna are also the predominant lineages in Tosks as well, but their supplementary R1a and I2a is what shifts them in a Macedonian, Bulgarian, and northern Greek direction relative to Ghegs. Any superficial similarity Tosks might have to Greeks is due to the fact that both peoples stem from the same Bronze Age substrate (E-V13, J2, and R1b) population that received a Slavic infusion in the Middle Ages via R1a and I2a. It isn't because Tosks are Albanized Greeks of Albania or anything like that.

Angela
28-07-17, 01:20
Lol I honestly thought he had something up his sleeve that I haven't seen yet. Exactly, bottle necks, founder effects and external influences play their part and even region from region in Ghegnia alone you could find such differences - especially in the north where compact clans dominated in the past. Plus one needs to analyse those uniparental markers in detail, clusters and subclusters, which I doubt he even looked into it, to be able to tell if we actually differ. For example majority of J2 in Greeks is actually J2a which Tosks totally lack etc.

Not that I know of, at least not in descent number anyway. But judging by the samples at gedmatch from both sides there isn't any substantial difference, at least that I could detect.

I was sincerely interested in knowing the answer. Still am. :) So many threads here that deal with this topic are full of post after post of unsubstantiated opinion, supported by no or few points of data.

I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

Johane Derite
28-07-17, 01:29
I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

Albanian population is small enough, my dream is that some serious academic drops out of the sky and just does a comprehensive study about us and ends the balkan bickering about albanians race, history etc (both from albanians and neighbours).

Obviously the real world doesn't work like this but let's hope that soon every person on earth can afford super detailed dna tests, and that they are fully integrated into a hyper competent Artificial Intelligence that shows every single genetic connection
between every single human alive and dead.

Until then though, we will have more anr more of "unsubstantiated opinions, supported by no or few points of data"

Leka
28-07-17, 02:37
I was sincerely interested in knowing the answer. Still am. :) So many threads here that deal with this topic are full of post after post of unsubstantiated opinion, supported by no or few points of data.

I was thinking primarily of how Albanians tend to plot on PCAs. They seem to form a rather homogeneous group, not like Italians, who sprawl over large areas of the plot. Of course, I don't know if the academic sample used is split between the two groups. If it is, and there are no studies showing anything different, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between them. Of course, as the British Isles paper showed, if you want to find differences, drill down deep enough and you'll find them anywhere.

Yeah lol, me too :)

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:
http://oi63.tinypic.com/289zseh.jpg

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

Angela
28-07-17, 03:16
Yeah lol, me too :)

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:
http://oi63.tinypic.com/289zseh.jpg

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

So, basically east of Tuscans, who themselves are northeast of Sardinians. It's what I rather expected. Not a big difference then, although academic samples might be slightly different, and of course, as I said above, if you want to drill down far enough you can get genetic distance from one town to the next.

Do you in fact know where the academic Albanian samples were collected? That would tell us a lot. Here is the plot from Haak et al 2015. They basically cluster with the Greeks (I'm assuming Thessaly) and Bulgarians although one is further south, perhaps with Peloponnese?

https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

Leka
28-07-17, 04:24
Yes, basically we're eastern shifted Tuscan's, just southwest of Bulgarians and overlapping with number of northern Greeks (Epirots, Thessalians etc) and to an extent even with Slavic Macedonians - important to note that even Kosovars tend to overlap with the mentioned Greeks. Some of that similarity might date back to bronze age as was postulated further up by one of the members but to my opinion good part of it most likely dates from early middle ages and onward when Albanians clans settled down there in droves.

Unfortunately I don't know where those samples were taken from. I have seen few other studies use Albanian samples but they don't specify where they are from hence why I didn't use them (my gut tells me they are from Kosova though).

Angela
28-07-17, 04:52
Yes, basically we're eastern shifted Tuscan's, just southwest of Bulgarians and overlapping with number of northern Greeks (Epirots, Thessalians etc) and to an extent even with Slavic Macedonians - important to note that even Kosovars tend to overlap with the mentioned Greeks. Some of that similarity might date back to bronze age as was postulated further up by one of the members but to my opinion good part of it most likely dates from early middle ages and onward when Albanians clans settled down there in droves.

Unfortunately I don't know where those samples were taken from. I have seen few other studies use Albanian samples but they don't specify where they are from hence why I didn't use them (my gut tells me they are from Kosova though).

We really need ancient dna from Italy. It's a huge hole in the data. Even when we get it, however, it can't completely be understood without also understanding the ancient genetics from the other side of the Adriatic, because so many population flows came to Italy through the Greek Islands, Greece, and more northern areas of the Balkans.

The amateurs, people who generally know almost nothing of ancient history in Italy and/or the Balkans persist in trying to understand Italian genetics in a vacuum. It can't be done, imo.

Thirty years ago, Luigi Cavalli-Sforza said that northern Italians were similar to Bulgarians, and Albanians to Tuscans, yet we have these so called internet experts acting as if they've just discovered all this. The irony is that he came to his conclusions using blood proteins, well before discoveries about snps, and all these new software programs.

One of his cluster maps.
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/pc4.jpg~original

It may not be perfect, and directionality may go every which way, but it still tells me a lot.

Leka
28-07-17, 05:22
We really need ancient dna from Italy. It's a huge hole in the data. Even when we get it, however, it can't completely be understood without also understanding the ancient genetics from the other side of the Adriatic, because so many population flows came to Italy through the Greek Islands, Greece, and more northern areas of the Balkans.

The amateurs, people who generally know almost nothing of ancient history in Italy and/or the Balkans persist in trying to understand Italian genetics in a vacuum. It can't be done, imo.

Thirty years ago, Luigi Cavalli-Sforza said that northern Italians were similar to Bulgarians, and Albanians to Tuscans, yet we have these so called internet experts acting as if they've just discovered all this. The irony is that he came to his conclusions using blood proteins, well before discoveries about snps, and all these new software programs.

One of his cluster maps.
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/pc4.jpg~original
Yeah agreed, fascinating stuff. We really need some big scientific studies like that one that was done in Sardinia for both regions, Italy and Balkans. Both regions currently are extremely under studied.

On top of that, we also seem to share some of our most common clusters with Sardinians and Italians. For example, our major cluster under R1b-CTS9219>BY611, some of the earlier splits, have been found in Sardinia on the after-mentioned scientific study sample ERS256992 and Italy sample YF08067 (though Mr. Bissacia has mentioned at anthrogenica that his family think they might be of Arbereshe origin). They might be from Bisaku, Mirdite (Fani tribe). Last name looks similar. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10789/

R1b-PF7563 that's found among us is also popular in Bulgaria, Italy and Greece as well, similarly we also seem to share few other clusters under V13 (L241 & CTS9320), and J2b2. Some of it is probably Arbereshe influence, but most certainly not all - some of those early splits under V13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563 most likely date to the earlier movements from both sides, perhaps when Indo-Europeans were expanding and crossing into Italy from the Balkans and all the way up to Greek, Illyrian and Roman periods? Time will tell I guess.

It might happen in Italy, but I am not confident that we will be seeing such a study in the Balkans in the near future. We just have to rely on fellow Albanians testing and contributing for now.This hasn't been going well either unfortunately for us. Albanians, and Greeks for that matter, are extremely paranoid when it comes to such tests, mostly because of ignorance to my opinion. We have been going at it for like four years now and we only have 128 members (embarrassing!) lol. Surprisingly enough, however, South Slavs seem to be doing really well, especially Serbian and Bulgarian projects. They seem to be more into it and generally are more informed. Geeks and Albanians tirelessly will debate day in and out about a dress or cap who wore it first or where it originates but won't engage in real science or contribute by testing lmao

blevins13
28-07-17, 10:38
Yeah lol, me too :)

On PCA unfortunately I haven't seen any scientific study as of yet, but judging by other sources,Gedmatch, global similarity map at 23andme etc. we are more compact than Greeks - they tend to be allover the place, all depends where they're from really. Of course, we have outliers as well just like any other population, and we also have to remember these divisions we're speaking of, Gheg and Tosk, are dialectal. Here is an amateur map I made from K15:
http://oi63.tinypic.com/289zseh.jpg

Limaj who is a Tosk is an outlier there, but as you can see he is western shifted for some reason - Greeks in general are more eastern. Hila is another Tosk in there, Leapfrogger is a Kosovar, along with Leki (me), Dibran is from Dibra and the rest are Kosovars. Not many samples, but majority of Tosks I have seen so far plot between me, leapfrogger and Hila.

Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


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Eldritch
28-07-17, 12:37
Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


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I think he means that he deviates from the common pattern of Albanian clustering, he is very southwest which is not common for a Balkanite i suppose.

Diomedes
28-07-17, 16:05
One has to ask himself why Greeks and Albanians have such an animosity between each other, especially Tosk Albanians who are practically Greeks.

It is important for Byzantium to return, at least in these two countries.

Leka
28-07-17, 16:17
Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


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Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think we're thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2chnwh2.jpg

Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - such autosomal tests are useful however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.

Angela
28-07-17, 16:32
Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think were are thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2chnwh2.jpg

Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - they are usuefull however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.

Thoroughly agree. Fun to play around with, but calculators based on modern European clusters should never be confused with actual analysis. It can provide interesting clues, however.

blevins13
28-07-17, 17:08
Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think were are thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2chnwh2.jpg

Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - they are usuefull however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.

Thanks Leka for your insight. I really appreciate it.


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Leka
28-07-17, 18:02
Thanks Leka for your insight. I really appreciate it.


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No problem bro. Ps he is V13 if I am not mistaken? Test him at Family Tree DNA, at least 37 markers. We really could use more Tosk samples :)

Dianatomia
28-07-17, 19:11
To reiterate so my point is more clear and all members here understand, I will use as an example one of the halpogroups you mentioned: V13 for example expanded/diversified during bronze age, two of its most successful branches, E-Z5017 and E-Z5018, formed about 4000 years ago. Hypothetically speaking, since you haven't analyse the data in detail, Tosks and Ghegs samples could all be under E-Z5017 while Greeks under Z-Z5018. You understand now how irrelevant your percentages are, right?

Just because they have less of it doesn't make them closer to Greeks or any other population for that matter.

I do realize that hypothetically this could be the case. Although, this is speculation either way. It may actually not be that case at all. Would be delighted to see more data on this.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that Tosks and Gheghs do differ. Even though they do inhabit a relatively small area. This is what the authors of the article I posted conluded. And I never said that Tosks were Greeks. I never went toward that direction. I said they were genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greeks, which is something else. And I argued that this is mostly due to pre-historic gene flows. Ofcourse, absent data, we can only speculate. Feel free to do so. But personally, I haven't seen any data which refutes my initial claim.

Leka
28-07-17, 19:25
Your claim was erroneous based on nothing basically, simple as that. As mentioned before, differences can be found even among Ghegs from region to region if one really digs deep into it, however, generally speaking they are not great.

Small area, are you kidding me? Do you actually know how inaccessible most of Albanian is, and how distant was Kosova from Laberia in the past? Even today with the modern motorways one needs to travel all day non stop to reach such distances. Yet, me a Kosovar with origin from north Albania and Belvins here who is a Lab are related, we both are R1b-CTS9219>BY611. You obviously are clueless and bit more than you could chew - better don't get involved at all.

Dianatomia
28-07-17, 19:36
I think you might be ignoring some evidence here. On an overall basis, Tosks and Gheghs do show differences. There is no point trying to ignore the obvious.

blevins13
28-07-17, 20:45
I think you might be ignoring some evidence here. On an overall basis, Tosks and Gheghs do show differences. There is no point trying to ignore the obvious.

.....as for differences between Tosks and Gegs, differences will have to do more with geographical accessibility. North Albanians alps are unaccessible, so more Bulgar and Slavic input in Tosk area. North Greece has also the input of Greek moved from Turkey that are different from south Albanians.....anyway, time will solve this issue as more dna test coming....but I am sure that the answer will be disappointing like many other lies about Albanians forged in Athens.


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Ed. by moderator.
An insult toward Greeks was removed. I'm going to give you one warning. Do not personalize these discussions in a way that insults another ethnicity or you'll start getting infraction points, and we know how that ends.

You people are going to start according Maciamo's site the respect you give places like anthrogenica, and not treat it like it's some site like theapricity or the like.

We'd better be clear, people. No whining here either, save that for other sites as well...follow the rules

Angela
28-07-17, 20:51
If someone wants to argue there's a big difference between Ghegs and Tosks, great...I couldn't care less whether that's the case or not. However, present hard genetic evidence, i.e. autosomal dna results, not unsubstantiated speculation.

blevins13
28-07-17, 20:58
No problem bro. Ps he is V13 if I am not mistaken? Test him at Family Tree DNA, at least 37 markers. We really could use more Tosk samples :)

Yes he is indeed V13.... I am will test him. But differences will show up since toskeria and laberia are not the same....Laberia is mountainous region while toskeria is more accessible and urbanized.


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spartan owl
29-07-17, 12:19
The Italian study of Bologna University "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily" shows that tosks and ghegs differ in autosomal DNA as well as in the y dna with the tosks being more european like and ghegs more eef like even if they are geographically to the north.(take a look in the supplementary figures)This means that ghegs are less influenced by their neighboring peoples because of their isolation.And as far as i know they also differ linguistically and phenotypically.One of the factors that contributed to their differentiation is the mixing with Greeks, as the ancient Greek colonies, geography and the presence of a Greek minority suggest.So it is not a question of if but rather of how much they were influenced by the Greeks.
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

DuPidh
29-07-17, 12:44
The Italian study of Bologna University "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily" shows that tosks and ghegs differ in autosomal DNA as well as in the y dna with the tosks being more european like and ghegs more eef like even if they are geographically to the north.(take a look in the supplementary figures)This means that ghegs are less influenced by their neighboring peoples because of their isolation.And as far as i know they also differ linguistically and phenotypically.One of the factors that contributed to their differentiation is the mixing with Greeks, as the ancient Greek colonies, geography and the presence of a Greek minority suggest.So it is not a question of if but rather of how much they were influenced by the Greeks.
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

Differences are minor! Tosks have more I1 and I2 as a result of three occupations: Goths, Slavs, Turks. All occupations are documented. Goths were present In Epiris Vetus for 200 years. Slavs for 120 years.Turks 500 years. All have left their marks. I1+I2 in Tosks is over 20%. I would say 25 % of Tosk genes could be from these occupations. Is my educated guess nothing scientific. Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved. But ethnicity is not genes. If it was genes Germany would be made of many ethnicity's, Italy should have had at least 5 ethnicity's etc.. As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.

Johane Derite
29-07-17, 12:54
Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved.


I think that when mentioning Geghs people need to start differentiating between Kosovo Geghs and highlander Gegs if they want to talk about "rugged" or "inaccessible." Kosovo is known for its flat fertile plains (as the map below shows). So lets not speculate without any concrete indications.

8985 89868987

Diomedes
29-07-17, 13:57
Please, always this false story.


As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.

Dianatomia
29-07-17, 15:09
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

I think I might be responsible for that. I argued that genetic similarity between Greeks from the mainland and Albanians is not simply the result of medieval migrations, but rather of older ones. Sure the Greek presence in South Albania may play a factor, but don't forget that many migrations into Greece since the Bronze Age started off from what is today Albania. Though the article you posted seems to refute that somewhat and argues that Albanians and mainland Greeks are more Northern shifted due to medieval (Slavic) migrations. Though I know of a study which claimed that during the late Bronze Age the Balkans received a wave of people which made the first break between the genetic continuum from Southern Italy to Cyprus. I will try to find and post this study here on this forum. Pretty sure someone must have posted it already somewhere.

As for the Tosks and Gheghs. Some people feel provoked when I argue that they differ somewhat. Surely, whatever the case, it doesn't make any of the two less Albanian. I argue for variety within Greek subgroups as well. So I don't see the problem here. We are just trying to find out the truth. I happen to remember some anthropologists who did some research on the matter. Carlton Coon for example considers the Gheghs to be an exclusive group of their own, and says that the Tosks by and large have different phenotypes which are similar to the Greeks from Epirus who as it happens resemble the Southern French. He argued that the internal mobility through the ages, including new settlers such as Slavs, did not break the regional variation from ancient times. So, in his view, Tosks are not simply Gheghs with some more Slavic admixture. They are considerably different. Although he did mention some Ghegh dinaric elements can be found in Tosks as well. We shall see what genetics will tell us in the years to come.

spartan owl
29-07-17, 16:23
Differences are minor! Tosks have more I1 and I2 as a result of three occupations: Goths, Slavs, Turks. All occupations are documented. Goths were present In Epiris Vetus for 200 years. Slavs for 120 years.Turks 500 years. All have left their marks. I1+I2 in Tosks is over 20%. I would say 25 % of Tosk genes could be from these occupations. Is my educated guess nothing scientific. Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved. But ethnicity is not genes. If it was genes Germany would be made of many ethnicity's, Italy should have had at least 5 ethnicity's etc.. As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.
You guys never answer what has been told to you but instead try to put some new argument to the table n the hope to skip the previus argument.
Reguardng the argumen that greek dna is a crude joke i will remind you of the study"Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks"by the university of washington.
But tell me what of the follwing do you disagree
1.ancient greeks did colonize s.albania
2.byzantine presence in your region was longer of all gothic slavic and turkish presence combined.
3.Even today there is a greek minority in s.albania recognized by the albanian state
so how can you argue that tosks are not influenced by the greeks at all?

Angela
29-07-17, 17:49
Gentlemen, the topic is regional differences in y dna in Greece. We have wondered off topic. Let's get back to it.

Diomedes
29-07-17, 18:36
Albania needs to understand that Greece is not an enemy, but rather a valuable ally.

Leka
29-07-17, 19:02
The Italian study of Bologna University "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily" shows that tosks and ghegs differ in autosomal DNA as well as in the y dna with the tosks being more european like and ghegs more eef like even if they are geographically to the north.(take a look in the supplementary figures)This means that ghegs are less influenced by their neighboring peoples because of their isolation.And as far as i know they also differ linguistically and phenotypically.One of the factors that contributed to their differentiation is the mixing with Greeks, as the ancient Greek colonies, geography and the presence of a Greek minority suggest.So it is not a question of if but rather of how much they were influenced by the Greeks.
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

Did we actually read the same paper? If I was you I wouldn't bring it up lol, because it just further solidifies my point that northern Greeks (Thessaly, Epir and Poleponessos) share descent amount of their ancestry with Albanians (Tosk and Gheg) including Kosovars who are Gheg Albanians, and that Albanians don't differ greatly from each other. It's a known fact that Tosks have absorbed more Slavic influence but how that makes them more similar to Greeks I haven't been able to get it out of you guys yet. Furthermore, it's hard to make out the labels on the PCA, but I see Tosks and Ghegs clustering nicely on the left not that distantly from each other while Greeks are all over the place

Modern Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations are located at the centre of the PCA plot (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1), forming an almost uninterrupted bridge between the two parallel clines of distribution where most of the other modern populations are found, one stretching along the East-West axis of Europe and the other from the Near East to the Caucasus, respectively (see also Supplementary Information). In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’. On the other hand, the continental part of Greece, including Peloponnesus, appears as slightly differentiated, by clustering with the other Southern Balkan populations of Albania and Kosovo. Finally, North-Central Balkan groups (Southern Slavic-speakers and Romanians) show affinity to Eastern Europeans (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1, Supplementary Information).

Even the paper was postulating that Greece probably went through some drastic population changes ever since their glory days, hence why the aforementioned regions are more related to Albanians and show no affinity to their comrades across the sea. You first have to define what represents a Greek and then come here and tell us what we are and single out our 'Greek' influence lol

Angela
29-07-17, 19:29
O.K. That's enough. Back to the yDna of Greeks. NOW!

Take these dispute to the Balkan Disagreements thread. You can find it through the search engine.

Diomedes
29-07-17, 19:46
To the Albanians: It does not matter what the genes say. What matters, first and foremost, is what Greeks feel about their country. Do not try to destroy threads with this propaganda. As Angela says, this thread has become off-topic, unfortunately.

Milan.M
29-07-17, 20:50
Tosks are more 'similar' according to Y dna overall to Greeks(depends to region) because they all together are more similar to their Macedonian Slavic and Bulgarian neighbors which sets Ghegs a bit apart,Greek Macedonia and Greek Thrace is probably one of the most near population to Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians perhaps according to Y dna,despite modern population exchange and settlements in this regions.

blevins13
29-07-17, 21:40
Tosks are more 'similar' according to Y dna overall to Greeks(depends to region) because they all together are more similar to their Macedonian Slavic and Bulgarian neighbors which sets Ghegs a bit apart,Greek Macedonia and Greek Thrace is probably one of the most near population to Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians perhaps according to Y dna,despite modern population exchange and settlements in this regions.

The samples are to small to come to that conclusion.... on the other side we have not seen Turk impact on the Tosk Albania so why Bulgarian should have one????


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Milan.M
29-07-17, 22:00
The samples are to small to come to that conclusion.... on the other side we have not seen Turk impact on the Tosk Albania so why Bulgarian should have one????


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Whatever the case,I am not speaking of 'impacts' here but according to Y DNA we have and similarities across regions that is still valuable, whether for you or anyone is good or bad,we like it or not.I do not see reason to be bad,it is neither surprising for neighbors to share similar Y DNA.

blevins13
30-07-17, 01:26
Whatever the case,I am not speaking of 'impacts' here but according to Y DNA we have and similarities across regions that is still valuable, whether for you or anyone is good or bad,we like it or not.I do not see reason to be bad,it is neither surprising for neighbors to share similar Y DNA.

Post your references here....so we can learn more....


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Angela
30-07-17, 19:44
We've now gotten to the point where a post includes a request to have it deleted? Just report off topic provocative posts and don't respond.

This is madness.

Just stop dredging up your old conflicts, for goodness sakes', and keep it neutral and scientific. Take the other stuff to the Balkan Disagreements thread. It was made for you guys, and now you won't use it. What's wrong with it? Do you think the rest of the members want to read this perpetual sniping?

Follow the god darn rules. It's really not too much to ask.

Leka
30-07-17, 19:51
Yet another time you people just do not answer my questions and instead try to put another controversy in the table so that we forget about what has been told and moving forward to another subject.
Yes mainland greece and albania share some common genes, but that could be also interpreted in a lot of ways for example a greek-byzantine influence to the albanians, or a more common eef substratum for both of them, or just a common slavic influence etc but you just choose to interpret it in one way that the small albanian population left a huge impact in the lot bigger greek one, and further more that it was an one way influence and not a both way influence like it usually is.
But again tell me what of the follwing do you disagree
1.ancient greeks did colonize s.albania
2.byzantine presence in your region was longer of all gothic slavic and turkish presence combined.
3.Even today there is a greek minority in s.albania recognized by the albanian state
so how can you argue that tosks are not influenced by the greeks at all?
And do not use stupid tricks like "define what represents a Greek" because you have neither defined what represents an albanian.
In the end i would like to suggest to the moderators to erase everything that is off topic because if not that will go one for ever as both parts feel that we "have" to respond to each other


There were no Greeks whatsoever in north Albanian where my origins lie to connect Kosvars and the rest of Albanians to such cluster. One of my closest matches paternally is a Greek from Thesaloniki with no knowledge of Arvanit ancestry. There are dozen others who are a bit more distant from Athens, Islands to Epirus. What do you think is the case here, a Greek establishing major clans in North Albania and Montenegro highlands like part of Thaçi, Kelmendi, Kastrati, Trieshi, Piperi etc. or the other way around?

In other hand we have many well recorded migrations of Albanians down south since at least 13 century and ownward. So as you can see, I like to follow where the data leads and theories that actually make sense and fit with the historical sources we have for the Balkans. You see the problem Spartan Owl, your Greek and Byzantine influence on us hypothesis is based absolutely on nothing, only hot air. Show me something concrete and I will follow.

Yetos
30-07-17, 20:40
There were no Greeks whatsoever in north Albanian where my origins lie to connect Kosvars and the rest of Albanians to such cluster. One of my closest matches paternally is a Greek from Thesaloniki with no knowledge of Arvanit ancestry. There are dozen others who are a bit more distant from Athens, Islands to Epirus. What do you think is the case here, a Greek establishing major clans in North Albania and Montenegro highlands like part of Thaçi, Kelmendi, Kastrati, Trieshi, Piperi etc. or the other way around?

In other hand we have many well recorded migrations of Albanians down south since at least 13 century and ownward. So as you can see, I like to follow where the data leads and theories that actually make sense and fit with the historical sources we have for the Balkans. You see the problem Spartan Owl, your Greek and Byzantine influence on us hypothesis is based absolutely on nothing, only hot air. Show me something concrete and I will follow.


@ Leka
search the story of Μετοχιτες Metochites Metohites,
there were Greeks in Kossovo, and there were Romans etc etc
they are connected with Byzantine nobility family and moved to Thessaloniki

until 1300 Greeks existed at Metochia

as for Monte Negro, yes it had from Antique colonies of Cretans,
but generally is not considered a significant
as also the Greeks in Kroatia who existed even to 1800 left at Napoleonic wars,

Today you can not exclude Greeks from Balkans, as you can not exclude Slavs from Balkans, as you can can not exclude Albanians from Greece,
as you can not exclude Aromani from all Aimos peninsula countries.

Leka
30-07-17, 22:02
Yetos, your post is irrelevant to our discussion and to R1b-CTS9219>BY611 that I belong to that is also found among Greeks today. Clans that wholly and partly belong to this line, like Kelmendi-Muriqi, Old Hoti, Old Trieshi, part of Kastrati and Piperi were well established in North Albania and southern Montenegro in the 15th century, recorded by Venetians too. The few Greek merchants who solely lived in cities couldn't have impacted us to that extent. Be logical please.

Yetos
30-07-17, 23:13
Yetos, your post is irrelevant to our discussion and to R1b-CTS9219>BY611 that I belong to that is also found among Greeks today. Clans that wholly and partly belong to this line, like Kelmendi-Muriqi, Old Hoti, Old Trieshi, part of Kastrati and Piperi were well established in North Albania and southern Montenegro in the 15th century, recorded by Venetians too. The few Greek merchants who solely lived in cities couldn't have impacted us to that extent. Be logical please.


@ Leka

your egoism is big,
Simon Simeonis mentions that at 1300 about the Greeks at Dyrrachium were the second biggest group after the latins,

as for the modern families names, you tell me nothing, as you said they were settled at 15 century.

about Metochites in Kossyfopedio, wanted or not it is true.

and my post is an answer to this .


There were no Greeks whatsoever in north Albanian where my origins lie to connect Kosvars and the rest of Albanians to such cluster. One of my closest matches paternally is a Greek from Thesaloniki with no knowledge of Arvanit ancestry.



you see Leka Greeks existed even the times of Battle of Kossovo, or the times of kastrioti and Vallavan pasha.

maybe the Greek of Thessaloniki is a Greek and you are too, and you have no knowlwdge.
maybe you are both Romans Aromani Remenii.
who knows,

spartan owl
30-07-17, 23:32
Yetos, your post is irrelevant to our discussion and to R1b-CTS9219>BY611 that I belong to that is also found among Greeks today. Clans that wholly and partly belong to this line, like Kelmendi-Muriqi, Old Hoti, Old Trieshi, part of Kastrati and Piperi were well established in North Albania and southern Montenegro in the 15th century, recorded by Venetians too. The few Greek merchants who solely lived in cities couldn't have impacted us to that extent. Be logical please.
leka do you actually belive that this discussion is about you and your haplogroup?
i rest my case!!!

Leka
30-07-17, 23:38
1328, 1332, 1336
John Cantacuzene:
Unruly Nomads
Pay Homage to the Emperor
While the emperor was staying in Thessaly (2), the unruly Albanians living in the Thessalian mountains appeared before him who, according to their tribal leaders, are called Malakasians, Buians and Mesarites and whose numbers reach 12,000. They paid homage to the emperor and promised to serve him, for they were afraid of being annihilated by the Byzantines at the onset of winter, living as they do, not in towns, but in the mountains and in inaccessible regions. Since they must abandon these regions in the winter due to the cold and snow, which falls in incredible amounts in such vicinities, they believed that they would easily fall prey to them.

Probably all of those Albanians recorded there evaporated, of fell beneath the ground. I rest my case.

Yetos
31-07-17, 08:15
1328, 1332, 1336
John Cantacuzene:
Unruly Nomads
Pay Homage to the Emperor



Probably all of those Albanians recorded there evaporated, of fell beneath the ground. I rest my case.

Leka if you do not know the history of Arvanites in Greece,
I suggest read the post #324.

THERE IS NO NEED TO REPAET CRAP OF THESSALY AND NOMADS

and what malakasii etc

at 1240 at Theba fields area known as Livanates today
Gegs from Albania were imported by De la Roche Bourgoundian nobility cause they acompaniyng him as a crusader and ruler
land was given to them there, Farmers, what Nomads you say?

at 1380 Peter of Aragonia allows them to enter Attica
at 1400 pass to peloponese by Palaiologos license

at 1465 except the Theba ones, who were farmers till today
majority is working Venician republic, and venician estimate them 10 000 at their castles and colonies.

The rest are imagination,

Arbanites never settled in Makedonia and Thessaloniki, that era,
even the times of Ali Pasha, his fear was Armatoliki of Olympos.

Now because you have a Y-DNA mark,
this does not mean that all that have same mark are Albanians
in fact they might be Albanians,
you might be Greek
you might be Roman-Aromani
or even a son of Crusader from deep Ireland,
or a Varangian or even a lost pilgrim family

I am G2a3a,
what that means?
that All Albanians with G2a3a are Greeks?
or that I am a Cypriot?
or an Italian?
or a Iranian?
or a Kappadokian Anatolian?

try to understand it, wanted or Not
there is Albanian DNA in Greece
but there is also Greek DNA in Albania,
and both Greece and Albania have Slavic DNA (and is more than 20%)


as for my family name,
it is half Roman, half Greek,
and exists the same sound in Greece Turkey Romania and Hungary
while in more centum in Italy and Austria
and in Satem form in Iran Afganistan Russia Ukraine Albania Czechia

because my Satem name exists in Albania does this means I am Albanian?

blevins13
31-07-17, 10:02
Leka if you do not know the history of Arvanites in Greece,
I suggest read the post #324.

THERE IS NO NEED TO REPAET CRAP OF THESSALY AND NOMADS

and what malakasii etc

at 1240 at Theba fields area known as Livanates today
Gegs from Albania were imported by De la Roche Bourgoundian nobility cause they acompaniyng him as a crusader and ruler
land was given to them there, Farmers, what Nomads you say?

at 1380 Peter of Aragonia allows them to enter Attica
at 1400 pass to peloponese by Palaiologos license

at 1465 except the Theba ones, who were farmers till today
majority is working Venician republic, and venician estimate them 10 000 at their castles and colonies.

The rest are imagination,

Arbanites never settled in Makedonia and Thessaloniki, that era,
even the times of Ali Pasha, his fear was Armatoliki of Olympos.

Now because you have a Y-DNA mark,
this does not mean that all that have same mark are Albanians
in fact they might be Albanians,
you might be Greek
you might be Roman-Aromani
or even a son of Crusader from deep Ireland,
or a Varangian or even a lost pilgrim family

I am G2a3a,
what that means?
that All Albanians with G2a3a are Greeks?
or that I am a Cypriot?
or an Italian?
or a Iranian?
or a Kappadokian Anatolian?

try to understand it, wanted or Not
there is Albanian DNA in Greece
but there is also Greek DNA in Albania,
and both Greece and Albania have Slavic DNA (and is more than 20%)


as for my family name,
it is half Roman, half Greek,
and exists the same sound in Greece Turkey Romania and Hungary
while in more centum in Italy and Austria
and in Satem form in Iran Afganistan Russia Ukraine Albania Czechia

because my Satem name exists in Albania does this means I am Albanian?

We are arguing that the Albanian dna footprint in Greece is substantial.... since this is the topic. The Albanian Dna is discussed in another thread.::::but since you are going on with this find below my thought. Sure that has been Greeks in Durrës in 1322 but after Turkish invasion there were left only 1000 people 220 families. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrës
So the mixing of the Durres Greeks with Barbaric Albanian should have been minimal.
As for 20% Slavic DNA on Albanian that is a speculation there is no proof that.



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spartan owl
31-07-17, 10:34
Yetos there is no point in having that discussion with leka. For god's sake, he had even questioned the Byzantine presence in north albania by saying"There were no Greeks whatsoever in north Albanian" . what is next, we will have to prove that the earth is round or that the sun is rising in the east. he can read an Albanian history book of the elementary school to refresh his memory if he wants.
Or argue with dupidh that the presence of ev13 in England does not mean albanian colonization of England.
or arguing with laberia that the study of the whashington University about the slavic impact on Peloponnese is valid even if it is not in line with his personal opinions.

Yetos
31-07-17, 11:10
We are arguing that the Albanian dna footprint in Greece is substantial.... since this is the topic. The Albanian Dna is discussed in another thread.::::but since you are going on with this find below my thought. Sure that has been Greeks in Durrës in 1322 but after Turkish invasion there were left only 1000 people 220 families. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrës
So the mixing of the Durres Greeks with Barbaric Albanian should have been minimal.
As for 20% Slavic DNA on Albanian that is a speculation there is no proof that.



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Blevins

or the Greeks of Albania got Albanised as a second possible answer

as for Slavic admixture in Albania
it is certain

blevins13
31-07-17, 13:08
Blevins

or the Greeks of Albania got Albanised as a second possible answer

as for Slavic admixture in Albania
it is certain

That might be an option if you believe on the possibility that metropolitan Greeks of Durres adopted the rural life in the mountains. Don't forget that Durres was a ghost city after Turkish occupation. So it seem that the majority either died or sold as slaves.


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blevins13
31-07-17, 13:16
Blevins

or the Greeks of Albania got Albanised as a second possible answer

as for Slavic admixture in Albania
it is certain

The albanization of Greeks in Albania if any that happened nobody knows when, should be one of those rare cases that occurred without force but as a free choice.... is unbelievable for me but never say never. As for Slavic admixture , let me know how you come to that conclusion, what data did you check in your DNA so I can check mine and let you know.


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Yetos
31-07-17, 14:39
The albanization of Greeks in Albania if any that happened nobody knows when, should be one of those rare cases that occurred without force but as a free choice.... is unbelievable for me but never say never. As for Slavic admixture , let me know how you come to that conclusion, what data did you check in your DNA so I can check mine and let you know.


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do not be so sure,
for example in Albania the hero is Kastrioti
but the winner is vallavan Pasha,
how Islamization was done?
peacefull or by Force?

blevins13
31-07-17, 14:54
do not be so sure,
for example in Albania the hero is Kastrioti
but the winner is vallavan Pasha,
how Islamization was done?
peacefull or by Force?

Change of Religion vs change of language???? This is a different topic.....post your Slavic data source 20%.... where do you get that in your DNA data???


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Leka
31-07-17, 15:38
Leka if you do not know the history of Arvanites in Greece,
I suggest read the post #324.

THERE IS NO NEED TO REPAET CRAP OF THESSALY AND NOMADS

and what malakasii etc

at 1240 at Theba fields area known as Livanates today
Gegs from Albania were imported by De la Roche Bourgoundian nobility cause they acompaniyng him as a crusader and ruler
land was given to them there, Farmers, what Nomads you say?

at 1380 Peter of Aragonia allows them to enter Attica
at 1400 pass to peloponese by Palaiologos license

at 1465 except the Theba ones, who were farmers till today
majority is working Venician republic, and venician estimate them 10 000 at their castles and colonies.

The rest are imagination,

Arbanites never settled in Makedonia and Thessaloniki, that era,
even the times of Ali Pasha, his fear was Armatoliki of Olympos.

Now because you have a Y-DNA mark,
this does not mean that all that have same mark are Albanians
in fact they might be Albanians,
you might be Greek
you might be Roman-Aromani
or even a son of Crusader from deep Ireland,
or a Varangian or even a lost pilgrim family

I am G2a3a,
what that means?
that All Albanians with G2a3a are Greeks?
or that I am a Cypriot?
or an Italian?
or a Iranian?
or a Kappadokian Anatolian?

try to understand it, wanted or Not
there is Albanian DNA in Greece
but there is also Greek DNA in Albania,
and both Greece and Albania have Slavic DNA (and is more than 20%)


as for my family name,
it is half Roman, half Greek,
and exists the same sound in Greece Turkey Romania and Hungary
while in more centum in Italy and Austria
and in Satem form in Iran Afganistan Russia Ukraine Albania Czechia

because my Satem name exists in Albania does this means I am Albanian?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Is there a point somewhere in that inconsistent lengthy post of yours?

Leka
31-07-17, 15:46
Yetos there is no point in having that discussion with leka. For god's sake, he had even questioned the Byzantine presence in north albania by saying"There were no Greeks whatsoever in north Albanian" . what is next, we will have to prove that the earth is round or that the sun is rising in the east. he can read an Albanian history book of the elementary school to refresh his memory if he wants.
Or argue with dupidh that the presence of ev13 in England does not mean albanian colonization of England.
or arguing with laberia that the study of the whashington University about the slavic impact on Peloponnese is valid even if it is not in line with his personal opinions.

Are you going to answer me what happened to those Albanians up on the Thessalian highlands? But never mind, they probably had nothing to do with our relatedness, must be those mystical Byzantine Greeks of North Albanian. Got it buddy.

Diomedes
31-07-17, 16:01
Albania has so many places with Slavic names. Kastriotis was half Serb, many Muslim Albanians hate him, go figure.

We need to take all these irrelevant part and put it to Balkan Disagreements, as Angela mentioned. It is sad we make her angry all the time. Actually, I feel really sad to see Greeks and Albanians fighting, when we have so many things in common.

blevins13
31-07-17, 16:39
Albania has so many places with Slavic names. Kastriotis was half Serb, many Muslim Albanians hate him, go figure.

We need to take all these irrelevant part and put it to Balkan Disagreements, as Angela mentioned. It is sad we make her angry all the time. Actually, I feel really sad to see Greeks and Albanians fighting, when we have so many things in common.

This are lies no Albanian hates Kastrioties...., yes that is true there might places with Slavic names but this is not the point, the point is Dna Results, I have test my self and I don't see any 20% Slavic, DNA talks BS walks....post your DNA results and lets discuss based on data not imagination.

Diomedes
31-07-17, 16:59
^ I have not done that test man, plus the Greeks do not have 20% Slavic DNA.

blevins13
31-07-17, 17:05
^ I have not done that test man, plus the Greeks do not have 20% Slavic DNA.

Tell that to Yetos... he is claiming that without data.


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Fustan
03-08-17, 15:55
Is there a point somewhere in that inconsistent lengthy post of yours?

I tried to decipher it and came to a conclusion; not really.

Funny how the greeks here go on and ramble about some moronic theories that don't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, mainly Y-DNA.
Most of them haven't even tested their Y-DNA, wonder if they're afraid of matching us Albanians who have. If it's not Albanian, there's a huge chance it's Slavic too. Maybe they have tested, but are hiding it? What a mess!

Fatherland
03-08-17, 15:58
Leka is most certainly the only poster in thread worth reading.

Fustan
03-08-17, 16:05
Are you going to answer me what happened to those Albanians up on the Thessalian highlands? But never mind, they probably had nothing to do with our relatedness, must be those mystical Byzantine Greeks of North Albanian. Got it buddy.

They disappeared man, but not like how the greeks here think, with smoke and suddenly they're not there. Do you want to know how they disappeared? They lost their identity and became greeks through the identity of the Orthodox Church, just like that R1b-BY611 from Thessaloniki who was shocked to match so many Ghegs and had no recollection of Arvanite ancestry.

Most greeks have some foreign ancestry it seems, many of whom I've talked to have found Arvanits and Vlachs while searching their family tree. Slavic assimilation seems to have happened way before though.

Fustan
03-08-17, 16:07
^ I have not done that test man, plus the Greeks do not have 20% Slavic DNA.

Yeah you're right, it's actually 21%.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Fatherland
03-08-17, 16:09
Yeah you're right, it's actually 21%.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
50-60% Slavic Y-DNA across Thessaloniki/North Eastern Greece.

Fustan
03-08-17, 16:10
50-60% Slavic DNA across Thessaloniki/North Eastern Greece.

They have very high numbers. Even more Slavic paternal Y-DNA than what you find among FYROMians in FYROM.

Maciamo
03-08-17, 16:29
Yeah you're right, it's actually 21%.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

Maciamo
03-08-17, 16:35
50-60% Slavic Y-DNA across Thessaloniki/North Eastern Greece.

34% of I2a1+R1a for northern Greece, so maybe about 40-45% in total. Just a bit less than Bulgaria and Macedonia. It's true that Heraclides 2017's paper on Cyprus gives 39% of I2+R1a for Greek Thrace.

In contrast, I2a1+R1a is 16% in Crete, 13% in the Cyclades, and only 6.5% among Greek Cypriots.

Fustan
03-08-17, 17:07
I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

Yeah, and you have to consider the E-V13, R1b-L283 and J2-L283 that was brought by Albanians and Vlachs, and those are definitely no small numbers, especially in the north.

Dianatomia
04-08-17, 22:41
Yeah, and you have to consider the E-V13, R1b-L283 and J2-L283 that was brought by Albanians and Vlachs, and those are definitely no small numbers, especially in the north.

EV-13 flew over Greece with a Jumbo Jet, went to Albania, stuck around for a few millenia and then decided to go down to Greece with the far numerically superior Albanians (irony). I see.

Get over it guys. Stick to the science.

Sile
04-08-17, 22:46
This are lies no Albanian hates Kastrioties...., yes that is true there might places with Slavic names but this is not the point, the point is Dna Results, I have test my self and I don't see any 20% Slavic, DNA talks BS walks....post your DNA results and lets discuss based on data not imagination.

They do hate him , because he stated in his own hand writing that he was an epirote .............nationalistic Albanians hate this notion

Johane Derite
04-08-17, 23:13
They do hate him , because he stated in his own hand writing that he was an epirote .............nationalistic Albanians hate this notion

Why do people who know nothing about the albanian language talk about it as if they do?
Why do people who know nothing about albanian history talk about it as if they do?

What is the emotional investment that is deeply ingrained in this attitude?

Why did Skenderbeu speak albanian? Why are his relatives that fled to italy after his death all arbereshe?
(http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/the-untold-story-skanderbeg-s-wife-s-life-and-death-in-exile-12-19-2016 )

This is Skenderbeu's helmet:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg.jpg/640px-KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg.jpg?1501880049775 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg_frontal_view.jpg/640px-KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg_frontal_view.jpg

The lettering around the helmet reads: * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *

This stands for "Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te "

Translated this means: Jesus of Nazareth blesses the Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terrorizer of Ottomans and King of Epirus.

Mat is in NORTHERN ALBANIA (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Mat,_Albania). Skenderbeu is known to be a northern Albanian.


Its clear from your consistent obsession with albanians that you have some deep identity issues. Get over yourself and realise that even
the crazy hyper nationalist albanians that do exist exist because of the homocidal history of the Greek Orthodox Church over the last 2000
years. Its a defense mechanism that ensured the survival of the Albanian language despite being surrounded on all sides.

Yetos
04-08-17, 23:30
Yeah, and you have to consider the E-V13, R1b-L283 and J2-L283 that was brought by Albanians and Vlachs, and those are definitely no small numbers, especially in the north.

if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

Johane Derite
04-08-17, 23:34
if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

Why cry? Why for J2B especially?

Yetos
04-08-17, 23:34
@ Derite

or the letter means IN PE RA TO RE INPERATORE = emperror?

Corrado
04-08-17, 23:57
I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

Is the majority of I2 in Greece I2a1? Is there no significant amount of I2a2, which could be a direct Neolithic legacy?

EDIT: Nevermind, I was confused, I2a2 was never a Balkan/Anatolian lineage, only I2a1. That's honestly quite surprising that virtually all of it in Greece is Slavic mediated, it means that likely only a portion of the Greek G2a lineages are all the paternal continuity that modern Greeks share with the Neolithic period.

Sakattack
05-08-17, 00:12
I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.I don't doubt your numbers.

What I certainly say, though, is that especially Nothern Greece received the biggest wave of the Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace Greeks during the '20s. It's not exaggeration if I say that your numbers have to be cut down half (well, approximately), in order to reach the actual number of the genetic Y's you posted (Slav derivered Y-haplos) of the nowydays Nothern Greeks.
Don't forget that all these people are never counted in the "North Greece" pool while testing; they are going to the "Turkish" pool instead.

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Johane Derite
05-08-17, 00:15
if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

Can you please explain what you meant here ? What are you trying to imply?

Sile
05-08-17, 01:05
Why do people who know nothing about the albanian language talk about it as if they do?
Why do people who know nothing about albanian history talk about it as if they do?
What is the emotional investment that is deeply ingrained in this attitude?
Why did Skenderbeu speak albanian? Why are his relatives that fled to italy after his death all arbereshe?
(http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/the-untold-story-skanderbeg-s-wife-s-life-and-death-in-exile-12-19-2016 )
This is Skenderbeu's helmet:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg.jpg/640px-KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg.jpg?1501880049775 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg_frontal_view.jpg/640px-KHM_Wien_A_127_-_Helmet_of_Skanderbeg_frontal_view.jpg
The lettering around the helmet reads: * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *
This stands for "Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te "
Translated this means: Jesus of Nazareth blesses the Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terrorizer of Ottomans and King of Epirus.
Mat is in NORTHERN ALBANIA (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Mat,_Albania). Skenderbeu is known to be a northern Albanian.
Its clear from your consistent obsession with albanians that you have some deep identity issues. Get over yourself and realise that even
the crazy hyper nationalist albanians that do exist exist because of the homocidal history of the Greek Orthodox Church over the last 2000
years. Its a defense mechanism that ensured the survival of the Albanian language despite being surrounded on all sides.
your deflecting.............answer what I stated.............why did he announce himself as an epirote ..........their are albanians here who even stste this on their signature block

Johane Derite
05-08-17, 01:10
your deflecting.............answer what I stated.............why did he announce himself as an epirote ..........their are albanians here who even stste this on their signature block

Firstly, produce where he states that he is an epirote.

Skanderbeg always signed himself as Lord of Albania and in that territory he included Epirus.

If you are referring to Laberia's signature then please ask him to provide the source because for me its totally not reliable...

Sile
05-08-17, 01:12
@ Derite

or the letter means IN PE RA TO RE INPERATORE = emperror?

don't worry about it ............he has a different dictionary "fake one"

plus the helmet is not from the time , it is a fabricated 20th century

Sile
05-08-17, 01:21
Firstly, produce where he states that he is an epirote.
Skanderbeg always signed himself as Lord of Albania and in that territory he included Epirus.
If you are referring to Laberia's signature then please ask him to provide the source because for me its totally not reliable...
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince ofTaranto, greeting.
Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lOistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to setup the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?
I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (Ned?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (Imperocche vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.
I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Trojafrom the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (Ne troverai nobilita piu antica della virtu.)
Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperocche) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neO) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeO?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mivai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.
the letter above translated

Johane Derite
05-08-17, 01:23
plus the helmet is not from the time , it is a fabricated 20th century

You're just outright accusing me of falsifying or making this up myself?

http://frosina.org/scanderbegs-helmet-and-sword-in-austrian-museum/

" Between the rosettes inscription: in/per/ra/to/re/bt. "

Do you think the Austrians made that up?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but this is the real helmet which is stored in the austrian museum in Vienna.

If when faced with something you don't know you immediately result to calling me a liar then you have serious mental issues.



don't worry about it ............he has a different dictionary "fake one"

How sick must you be to be so confident on something you never even knew existed until now?

You just now learn about in/per/ra/to/re/bt from me, and your first response is that the explanation I have given is "fake" and that it meaning EMPEROR is more reasonable?

Whats wrong with you.

For you @Yetos, since you're greek I would recommend you go read up about Hubris and how it provokes Nemesis.

Johane Derite
05-08-17, 01:36
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince ofTaranto, greeting.
Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lOistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to setup the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?
I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (Ned?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (Imperocche vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.
I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Trojafrom the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (Ne troverai nobilita piu antica della virtu.)
Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperocche) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neO) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeO?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mivai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.
the letter above translated


Exactly as I said, if you are referring to Laberia's signature, which you have confirmed you were referring to, then please produce a source. This is not a source. It is a larger letter with no confirmation of authenticity. It sounds so obviously fake!

It's even possible that Laberia wrote it himself in some other forum jeez. You produced no SOURCE. I have looked for this in the past when I saw it in Laberia's document and found NOTHING that made me believe its credible.

Don't create scientific hypotheses that Albanians are epirotes based on signatures you see

blevins13
05-08-17, 02:23
They do hate him , because he stated in his own hand writing that he was an epirote .............nationalistic Albanians hate this notion

Quite the opposite, they love him among other things for that as well. Stop lying....this is low level discussion, no data and proof just crap.


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Angela
05-08-17, 02:37
@Sile,
Just since I've been gone you've called a member a liar and failed to source your comments from reputable academic sites or papers.

Cut it out or you're going to get another infraction and you'll be out of here again.

I don't enjoy doing this kind of thing, and particularly on a Friday night, so stop this nonsense.

Fatherland
05-08-17, 04:51
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty.
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults.

Albanese, yes, his own people.

Now off with you!

Sile
05-08-17, 04:55
@Sile,
Just since I've been gone you've called a member a liar and failed to source your comments from reputable academic sites or papers.
Cut it out or you're going to get another infraction and you'll be out of here again.
I don't enjoy doing this kind of thing, and particularly on a Friday night, so stop this nonsense.
it comes from this person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Barleti
the article is in latin translated for me from latin

even the link has skandenberg as prince of the epirotes .........more than one

Sile
05-08-17, 04:57
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults.

Albanese, yes, his own people.

Now off with you!

lol...read it again

Fatherland
05-08-17, 04:58
lol...read it again
I have no problem as Albanians are strongly Epirotes. We are native to the area.

What is bizarre is you Sile, claiming mtDNA: H95a as Ostrogothic descendant.

Sile
05-08-17, 05:08
I have no problem as Albanians are strongly Epirotes. We are native to the area.

What is bizarre is you Sile, claiming mtDNA: H95a as Ostrogothic descendant.

Well, my albanian friend, mr, Emini ..........from Resen, macedonia ............always state that Epiotes and macedonians are the only ancient people that modern albanians came from.

lol.........a theory ..........I once thought is was eastern alps...........but the numbers are far more in gotland, sweden and west-finland

Fatherland
05-08-17, 05:09
Well, my albanian friend, mr, Emini ..........from Resen, macedonia ............always state that Epiotes and macedonians are the only ancient people that modern albanians came from.

lol.........a theory ..........I once thought is was eastern alps...........but the numbers are far more in gotland, sweden and west-finland
Your psuedo-theories are all faulty.

Reported for slanderous sarcasm.

Yetos
05-08-17, 06:38
guys

which one of you knows what is this photo?

and what connection has with Kastrioti?

http://www.kastra.eu/pics/xilander-georg7.jpg

Johane Derite
05-08-17, 10:39
it comes from this person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Barleti
the article is in latin translated for me from latin
even the link has skandenberg as prince of the epirotes .........more than one
This is from the very link you posted, proving my point exactly.
"Barleti invented spurious correspondence between Vladislav II of Wallachia and Skanderbeg, wrongly assigning it to the year 1443 instead to the year of 1444.[17] Barleti also invented correspondence between Scanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II to match his interpretations of events.[17] His first work is considered more reliable than his second work due to its nature of being an eyewitness account of the events that occurred in his home town.[18] However, one should keep in mind that inserting fictive speeches suited to the historical character was characteristic of classical/classicizing historiography."
This correspondence, if it is actually from this author(which yoh still sid not actually source yet, you just posted an author that im supposed to believe did write it out of confidence) that is known for inventing false correspondence between historical figures? How reliable is this in your opinion?
Just like how many flat earthers exist in America, there exist loud subsets of conspiracy and crazy un scientific theories among albanians also.
Its well established that the albanian language was formed above the jiricek line. That it was neighbours with Romanian in an older time also. Before that there are deep traces of baltic and german (very long ago, see Vladimir Orel Proto Albanian). Please stop with the fictions and innovations

Dianatomia
05-08-17, 10:40
I have no problem as Albanians are strongly Epirotes. We are native to the area.

What is bizarre is you Sile, claiming mtDNA: H95a as Ostrogothic descendant.

I think so too. At least the South Albanians. After all, that's where Epirus lies. I have no doubt that you will find considerable degrees of genetic continuity there as well, like in the case of modern Greeks and the Myceneans. And I don't think that those Bronze Age Epirots will be a lot of different from Bronze Age Myceneans. Also somehow I think that the Dorians will have some strong link with Epirus. We'll see. But surely these South Albanians will have some Slav and North Albanian admixture as well.

Fatherland
05-08-17, 10:40
guys

which one of you knows what is this photo?

and what connection has with Kastrioti?

http://www.kastra.eu/pics/xilander-georg7.jpg
That is Hilandar. Gjon Kastrioti was buried at the tower named Albanian Tower there.

Albanian ethnonym of the tower is obvious regardless of how one twists it.

Yetos
05-08-17, 16:42
That is Hilandar. Gjon Kastrioti was buried at the tower named Albanian Tower there.

Albanian ethnonym of the tower is obvious regardless of how one twists it.

I do not know what you mean by twist,
but Not only John, also Repos and others of Kastrioti family and wider circle,

I am glad that you know it,
most of Albanians I ask, even in the forum, know Nothing, and claim it is a lie,
and I speak nons ense

You are the first Albanian that recognise it and knows about it,

tell me Fatherland, how many of modern Albanians know this?
I repeat you are the first

another also thing you maybe know, is that Kastrioti as nobles are also mentioned in an Archibishopy Episcope of a known Greek Makedonian city for baptism and heritage rights
and Aryanit or Ayanit Αγιαννιτης is Mentioned in Slavic Makedonian Episcopal

I suggest the rest Albanians of the forum to start wonder and search more than to chew and chew again the gum of Stupidity

until today is named as tower of Saint George tower, or Albanian tower

saint George
the written say that John gathered the taxes from some areas and donate it to the monastery,
but another written say it was Build by George kastriotis,
That is why it carries his name Saint George

Rom
05-08-17, 16:53
Dear, rafc, could you show the frequencies of the excluded Vlach samples in Greece please?

blevins13
05-08-17, 17:22
I do not know what you mean by twist,
but Not only John, also Repos and others of Kastrioti family and wider circle,

I am glad that you know it,
most of Albanians I ask, even in the forum, know Nothing, and claim it is a lie,
and I speak nons ense

You are the first Albanian that recognise it and knows about it,

tell me Fatherland, how many of modern Albanians know this?
I repeat you are the first

another also thing you maybe know, is that Kastrioti as nobles are also mentioned in an Archibishopy Episcope of a known Greek Makedonian city for baptism and heritage rights
and Aryanit or Ayanit Αγιαννιτης is Mentioned in Slavic Makedonian Episcopal

I suggest the rest Albanians of the forum to start wonder and search more than to chew and chew again the gum of Stupidity

until today is named as tower of Saint George tower, or Albanian tower

saint George
the written say that John gathered the taxes from some areas and donate it to the monastery,
but another written say it was Build by George kastriotis,
That is why it carries his name Saint George

Yetos, who digs history knows it, Kastrioti family has changed religion many times, like most of the Albanians have done, in Greece nowadays....there is no news here....but you continue to be off topic with questions and provocation....and mostly bs.


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Yetos
05-08-17, 17:38
Yetos, who digs history knows it, Kastrioti family has changed religion many times, like most of the Albanians have done, in Greece nowadays....there is no news here....but you continue to be off topic with questions and provocation....and mostly bs.


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blevins

my post was clear,

you never answered before when I asked the same many times,

That means that you learn it first time now,

now I throw back your insults,

my post is clear and pure,
as answer of Fatherland

Only eyes of a dirty mind see it dirty,

and it has not to with Religions,
rather with Alliance.

only the blind (followers of Vallavan pasha) can not see it

blevins13
05-08-17, 17:55
blevins

my post was clear,

you never answered before when I asked the same many times,

That means that you learn it first time now,

now I throw back your insults,

my post is clear and pure,
as answer of Fatherland

Only eyes of a dirty mind see it dirty,

and it has not to with Religions,
rather with Alliance.

only the blind (followers of Vallavan pasha) can not see it

"Chew the gum of stupidity"....what is that, and because the average Albanian does not know where Gjon and his son Stanish was buried, there is nothing pure in your post and nothing dirty in my mind. Focus on the topic stop the bs and the provocation of what we know and what me chew....it is a low level discussion on your side.


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blevins13
02-10-17, 11:01
blevins

my post was clear,

you never answered before when I asked the same many times,

That means that you learn it first time now,

now I throw back your insults,

my post is clear and pure,
as answer of Fatherland

Only eyes of a dirty mind see it dirty,

and it has not to with Religions,
rather with Alliance.

only the blind (followers of Vallavan pasha) can not see it

My DNA relatives in FTDNA were knights of Demeter Reres, the Scanderbeg Captain......


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Angela
02-10-17, 13:40
Yetos, cut out the insults or you're going to get an infraction. Plus, you're off topic.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 16:40
Exactly as I said, if you are referring to Laberia's signature, which you have confirmed you were referring to, then please produce a source. This is not a source. It is a larger letter with no confirmation of authenticity. It sounds so obviously fake!

It's even possible that Laberia wrote it himself in some other forum jeez. You produced no SOURCE. I have looked for this in the past when I saw it in Laberia's document and found NOTHING that made me believe its credible.

Don't create scientific hypotheses that Albanians are epirotes based on signatures you see

You have a big problem. You don't know the history of your country.

Dibran
25-10-17, 16:49
You have a big problem. You don't know the history of your country.

Seems to know a lot more than you about the matter. Skanderbeg was a Gheg.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 17:22
They do hate him , because he stated in his own hand writing that he was an epirote .............nationalistic Albanians hate this notion
No, He said another thing:

My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans.
Scanderbeg was a Geg, from North Albania. The first uncontested time that Kastrioti family is mentioned in history is this:

Pal Kastrioti (fl. 1383—1407) was an Albanian nobleman attested in c. 1383 as the lord of two villages, Sina and Lower Gardi. According to Gjon Muzaka Pal had three sons: Konstantin, Alexius and Gjon Kastrioti, the latter who was Skanderbeg's father.
So, He was a Geg, from Mati region. When He talk about elders, He mentioned our chronicles. Unfortunately, for obvious reasons, we don't have in our possession these chronicles.
So, this your theory of the hate of nationalists Albanians is a nonsense.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 17:32
Seems to know a lot more than you about the matter. Skanderbeg was a Gheg.
She is an Albanian, born and raised in a foreign country who use to learn the history of our country from Wikipedia.
About Scanderbeg, read my post.

Dibran
25-10-17, 17:36
She is an Albanian, born and raised in a foreign country who use to learn the history of our country from Wikipedia.
About Scanderbeg, read my post.

Our academia in Albania isn't exactly a shining example either.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 17:49
Our academia in Albania isn't exactly a shining example either.

I am waiting that you explain what you intend with this sentence.

LABERIA
25-10-17, 18:21
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults.

Albanese, yes, his own people.
Now off with you!
This the quote from Scanderbeg:
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

At least in the last 1000 years, excluding the 20th century, foreigners but also our ancestors in different chronicles of the time, including our legends, considered the arbër later shqiptarët (Albanians) as the only successor nation of the Illyrians, Macedonians and Epirotes . All these were synonyms of the Arbër=Shqiptarët (Albanian) name. Later, at the end of nineteenth century and the beginning of XX, foreigners for geopolitical reasons began to say (and they did not even told to us sorry because we have lied to you so far as we have called you the nation descendant of these old Peninsula populations) no, it's not exactly this. Some of these foreigners, our neighbors and their sponsors, started to spread this theories, you are Turks coming from Asia, you arrived from Caucasus, etc. You can read this outdated theories in every forum, including this respected forum.
So, i don't find nothing wrong with the words of Scanderbeg. What did he said after reading our chronicles? Albanians, Epirotes and Macedonians, were part of the same nation.
What is the truth? Maybe we will learn one day, especially now with the help of the genetics.

Sile
25-10-17, 18:57
This the quote from Scanderbeg:
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. Our elders were Epirotes, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?"

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto ▬ Skanderbeg, October 31 1460

At least in the last 1000 years, excluding the 20th century, foreigners but also our ancestors in different chronicles of the time, including our legends, considered the arbër later shqiptarët (Albanians) as the only successor nation of the Illyrians, Macedonians and Epirotes . All these were synonyms of the Arbër=Shqiptarët (Albanian) name. Later, at the end of nineteenth century and the beginning of XX, foreigners for geopolitical reasons began to say (and they did not even told to us sorry because we have lied to you so far as we have called you the nation descendant of these old Peninsula populations) no, it's not exactly this. Some of these foreigners, our neighbors and their sponsors, started to spread this theories, you are Turks coming from Asia, you arrived from Caucasus, etc. You can read this outdated theories in every forum, including this respected forum.
So, i don't find nothing wrong with the words of Scanderbeg. What did he said after reading our chronicles? Albanians, Epirotes and Macedonians, were part of the same nation.
What is the truth? Maybe we will learn one day, especially now with the help of the genetics.

That is what he stated, their is no denying this .............but as I stated earlier, many albanians hate the link with epirotes.
genetically albanians are mixed with macedonians and greeks more so than with slavs ..........again it makes sense with the letter.

Did the albanians go with alexander to India.......I am unsure, I only know that Greeks, Macedonians, epirotes and thracians went to India ..............no illyrians or dacians went

As for the the tarantini people, they where greek ( corintihian ) and epirote mix peoples and not part of the messapic people which was further north

ihype02
26-10-17, 17:29
I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.
That seems a pretty good estimate back up by science and also it fits up with historical data and placenames.
Here is one map with Slavic toponyms in Greece.
http://sparotok.blog.bg/photos/83734/original/MAX%20VAS%20GREEK.png

ihype02
26-10-17, 17:53
34% of I2a1+R1a for northern Greece, so maybe about 40-45% in total. Just a bit less than Bulgaria and Macedonia. It's true that Heraclides 2017's paper on Cyprus gives 39% of I2+R1a for Greek Thrace.

In contrast, I2a1+R1a is 16% in Crete, 13% in the Cyclades, and only 6.5% among Greek Cypriots.
Maciamo 45% Slavic ancestry for Bulgaria seems fine however, in the Republic of Macedonia are you excluding Albanians who form a quarter of country's population?

athos
05-11-17, 14:42
Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

IronSide
05-11-17, 14:56
Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

Thats a strange question .. my good sir you have the most common haplogroup in Greece.

see this post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page11?p=495469&viewfull=1#post495469


E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

Yetos
05-11-17, 15:38
Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

and most possible from Helmos, Achaia or Korinthia?

very typical

athos
05-11-17, 20:40
Thanks for the information. Much appreciated. At first glance it looks like your data is referring to the E-V13 haplogroup.

Is is there any data on the K2 mtdna?

my family has told me the Greek names ending in "akis" are from Crete. This is where we think the K2 mtdna is coming from.

athos
05-11-17, 20:41
Thanks for your reply.

IronSide
10-11-17, 09:09
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Its a good thing that I2c is such an easily observable haplogroup, 6% in Thessaly and 9% in Crete, and if we assume it had higher frequency in ancient times you reach 6% in the Peloponnese, 10% in Thessaly and 12% in Crete, this made me think what was common between these regions ?

From this book (https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=9PM8AAAAIAAJ&q=thessaly+crete#v=snippet&q=thessaly%20crete&f=false) page 255 "Prehistoric Thessaly Being Some Account of Recent Exavations and Explorations in North-eastern Greece from Lake Kopais to the Borders of Macedonia"

The geometric pottery of the early iron age from Thessaly itself, which seems to have some connection with the earlier Lianokladhi style, is remarkable for the resemblance it bears to the early geometric vases of Crete.

The fibulae from the Theotoku tombs, in which the bow is already present, but the pin plate only just apparent in its earliest stages, shows that this style is of a very early date, and also indicates the same general connections as the vases themselves.

It is therefore by no means impossible that we have here a hint of an archaeological basis for the traditional connection between Thessaly and Crete in the wanderings of the Magnetes, and the occurrence of similar place names such as Boebe, Magnesia, Phaestus, and Phalanna in both regions. At the period, to which this early iron age geometric pottery must be attributed, the Dorians must have been already within Greek territory or at least only just outside.

The geographical gap on the mainland in the Homeric catalougue between the forces of Agamemnon and Priam has sometimes been explained on the assumption that this district was peoples by Dorians. The early iron age vases from Pateli which belong to this region are, as we have seen, somewhat analogous to the vases from Marmariani and Theotoku.

Further in literature the Dorians first appear in Crete and their presence there is usually explained on the theory that they represent an early migration that had come direct by sea. Andron definitly asserts that they came to Crete from Histiaeotis, but as it is doubtful if this statement is more than an inference from the Homeric passage, it must be accepted with reserve. There seems however on the present evidence to be a good case for connecting the early geometric wares of Thessaly and Crete, and for attributing both to Dorian influence.

Vlad82
13-11-17, 16:54
... Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:
...

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Thank you for reporting difference in distribution of haplogroups I2a-P37 and R1a in The Peloponnese.
On FTdna there are several people tested as I2a Dinaric from South Greece:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas

Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia

Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

This three branches have been found among Balkan Slavs and Northern Slavs, so they might be brought there with Slavic migrations 6-7 century or by later migrations from north (Greeks, Albanians, Slavs).

Among Greeks has been found a very rare branch of I-CTS10228, it is I-A2512, formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp according the Yfull
1x A2512 but A7134- (I-A2512*) Thasos, Greece
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante
Except one from Thasos, rest of them are from The Peloponnese and islands around it.
This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia, but not yet among Slavs. There is a high possibility that A2512 separated from rest of I-CTS10228 before Slavic expansion and somehow a part of it came to Greece before Slavs in 6-7 th century.
Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
One Chuvash from scientific study has been positive on A2512+ and another one on FTdna is S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- and no call for A2512 (but probably positive).
The Peloponnese may be area where A2512 started to spread around the Mediterranean Sea.

Could people with knowledge of history and migrations in South Greece give a possible (historical) explanation how A2512 came there?

09-03-18, 03:51
LeBrok and i know that's 7 years old but still...

Aspar
10-03-18, 22:16
Thank you for reporting difference in distribution of haplogroups I2a-P37 and R1a in The Peloponnese.
On FTdna there are several people tested as I2a Dinaric from South Greece:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth
This three branches have been found among Balkan Slavs and Northern Slavs, so they might be brought there with Slavic migrations 6-7 century or by later migrations from north (Greeks, Albanians, Slavs).
Among Greeks has been found a very rare branch of I-CTS10228, it is I-A2512, formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp according the Yfull
1x A2512 but A7134- (I-A2512*) Thasos, Greece
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante
Except one from Thasos, rest of them are from The Peloponnese and islands around it.
This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia, but not yet among Slavs. There is a high possibility that A2512 separated from rest of I-CTS10228 before Slavic expansion and somehow a part of it came to Greece before Slavs in 6-7 th century.
Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
One Chuvash from scientific study has been positive on A2512+ and another one on FTdna is S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- and no call for A2512 (but probably positive).
The Peloponnese may be area where A2512 started to spread around the Mediterranean Sea.
Could people with knowledge of history and migrations in South Greece give a possible (historical) explanation how A2512 came there?
A2512 is very mysterious indeed.
Taking in consideration the TMRCA of this subbranch and the fact that it hasn't been found in any Slavic group yet, we can assume that this subbranch had arrived in Greece somewhere between 200 B.C. and 600 A.D.
The most probable migrations that brought it were those of the Goths and Huns.
Having been found in a Chuvash man only confirms my suspicion that this subbranch have been brought either by Goths who have acquired it from the Huns or have been brought by the Huns themselves.
We know about the the Gothic and Hunnic raids in the Balkans and also about the numerous Gothic and Hunnic warriors and other officials in service of the Byzantine empire.
Or it could have been brought by some Slavic tribe still, that have settled in Greece and had that specific mutation.

Aspar
10-03-18, 23:33
I don't doubt your numbers.
What I certainly say, though, is that especially Nothern Greece received the biggest wave of the Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace Greeks during the '20s. It's not exaggeration if I say that your numbers have to be cut down half (well, approximately), in order to reach the actual number of the genetic Y's you posted (Slav derivered Y-haplos) of the nowydays Nothern Greeks.
Don't forget that all these people are never counted in the "North Greece" pool while testing; they are going to the "Turkish" pool instead.
Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk
And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!

Yetos
11-03-18, 10:08
And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!

in fact the searches ask for people that their parents inhabit before 1870
in North Greece.

So all exchanged and immigrant populations are excluded

eastara
11-03-18, 14:31
in fact the searches ask for people that their parents inhabit before 1870
in North Greece.

So all exchanged and immigrant populations are excluded

Rafc has extracted data from the Genographic project, where all origin is self reported. I have filled the questionnaire myself and it goes only up to your grandparents. As most Greeks tested there in fact live in US, Australia, etc. they probably don't have information where their grandparents and further back actually came from (and even if they have, it is not asked specifically). So this geographic distribution in Greece should not be taken as autochthonous.

Angela
11-03-18, 15:51
Eastara, that's the case for a lot of data, i.e. it's self-reported. That's even the case for a lot of academic studies. Researchers don't go and check the records at the town halls.

I doubt people are deliberately lying or that most of them are mistaken about their family origins. It may not be 100% accurate, but nothing is in these cases.

Yetos
11-03-18, 17:08
Rafc has extracted data from the Genographic project, where all origin is self reported. I have filled the questionnaire myself and it goes only up to your grandparents. As most Greeks tested there in fact live in US, Australia, etc. they probably don't have information where their grandparents and further back actually came from (and even if they have, it is not asked specifically). So this geographic distribution in Greece should not be taken as autochthonous.

on contradictory
my sisters father in law and my far ungle who were tested at AUTH search
were asked to bring pappers from local offices or church baptise data
or marriage even Turkish identity or qitap (land registry)
to prove that family were before 1870,
we manage found back to 1850
an extra different gentical search is done also till 1905 as wider search

in fact my sister's father in law passed pass
due to a donation to church around 1850's few decades after the new villages established from spliting from the other bigger one
known and found written in the icon an in the book of donators
he was baptised by a passing monk
and entered the municipall hall pappers at age of 13
before WW2
born around 1927,
nobody knows when exactly his parents were born
since that time children could be written at age 8-14
and baptised even at age of 8.
Greek id cards were given to them from 1916-1926 in some villages

Dibran
11-03-18, 17:40
A2512 is very mysterious indeed.
Taking in consideration the TMRCA of this subbranch and the fact that it hasn't been found in any Slavic group yet, we can assume that this subbranch had arrived in Greece somewhere between 200 B.C. and 600 A.D.
The most probable migrations that brought it were those of the Goths and Huns.
Having been found in a Chuvash man only confirms my suspicion that this subbranch have been brought either by Goths who have acquired it from the Huns or have been brought by the Huns themselves.
We know about the the Gothic and Hunnic raids in the Balkans and also about the numerous Gothic and Hunnic warriors and other officials in service of the Byzantine empire.
Or it could have been brought by some Slavic tribe still, that have settled in Greece and had that specific mutation.

Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample. Yet still not conclusive(considering Yfull is not representative of all data).

I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A2512/

Chances are(whether it was Gothic or not originally)it was part of the Slavic Expansion. If the Greek samples were Basal CTS10228 or older, I would reckon Goths definitely. Or maybe Bastarnae.

Ralphie Boy
12-03-18, 04:12
Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample.

All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

Dibran
12-03-18, 21:27
All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

Ralphie Boy
12-03-18, 23:57
Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

Is it not possible that A2512 predated Slavic migrations in Greece? What about earlier invasions, like Goths?

There are two major branches of A2512: A10959 and A7134. The Eastern European Jews are downstream in A10959, and the Chuvash and Spanish people are in A7134.

Sakattack
14-03-18, 11:46
And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!Just saw that.

Ive not said that they should be included. In 1-2 generations they eventually will be.

All I am saying is that when we say "in Nothern Greece this and this bla bla bla" etc we don't have the actual picture of the area, which is A LOT different because of the huge numbers of people with different ancestry.

I can't recall any other area in Europe today that the studied "truth" is so different from the actual one.

Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

Aspar
15-03-18, 19:53
Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample. Yet still not conclusive(considering Yfull is not representative of all data).

I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample)

Chances are(whether it was Gothic or not originally)it was part of the Slavic Expansion. If the Greek samples were Basal CTS10228 or older, I would reckon Goths definitely. Or maybe Bastarnae.

Yes, somehow I've missed that.
I thought that this particular marker is found only in Greeks but now I see that it is found in some East European countries as well.
And I don't believe that all of those people are Jewish as other member said.
I've checked the FTDNA's I2a haplogroup project and among the Greeks there is one man apparently with a Jewish name, the other are not listed there.
As it seems, whole I2a1b-Dinaric, is the best evidence for the Slavic genetic footprint in the Balkans.

ihype02
22-07-18, 15:09
Dodecanese Islanders have '23% E' Y-Dna. What about subclades?

Parafarne
27-07-18, 16:03
is there new data for Greece from Geno2, it seems like we have stuck with these datas for the last decade? there should have been much larger projects to give much better refined results!

Aspar
28-07-18, 01:29
Dodecanese Islanders have '23% E' Y-Dna. What about subclades?

I believe not much different than Cyprus and other nearby islands, therefore I expect E-L791 and mostly E-Y4971 subclade and maybe E-Y6923.
Than I expect E-V22 and some subclades of it.
When it comes to E-V13, I expect some old subclades like S7461, Y16729, Y3183, Y3762 and others.
And finally, and most numerous on top of that, I expect CTS9320 which looks like subclade that could have been brought by the Dorians!

Wakinta
31-01-19, 21:16
Anyone knows the specific Y-DNA makeup of the people of Western Crete (Chania)? Especially Kissamos. I'm not very knowledgeable in this kind of thing but I'm interested. Ty in advance :)

Pan
04-03-19, 04:05
I-M223, Subclade I-L701. Father, Grandfather, Grand-grand-father from Thessaly.

xiaodragon
29-03-19, 23:07
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

the Y DNA in Greece

Ralphie Boy
31-03-19, 07:50
Yes, somehow I've missed that.
I thought that this particular marker is found only in Greeks but now I see that it is found in some East European countries as well.
And I don't believe that all of those people are Jewish as other member said.
I've checked the FTDNA's I2a haplogroup project and among the Greeks there is one man apparently with a Jewish name, the other are not listed there.
As it seems, whole I2a1b-Dinaric, is the best evidence for the Slavic genetic footprint in the Balkans.

There are a lot of Jews downstream of Y23115, which is under A10959. They may all be Jewish. The FTDNA I2a project has names like Rosen, Moses, Chaim, Sholom, Feldman, etc. The results are on page two

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

The FTDNA project administrator also states the people are Jewish.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2017/05/may-2017-draft-trees-for-i-l621-and-i.html?m=1

One Russian Y18331 is from Tobolsk, which is very far away from the East European countries of the Jewish ancestors: Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, etc.

As of yet there appear to be no East European non-Jews nor Balkan Slavs in Y18331. The Jews and Greeks in A10959 had their common ancestor an estimated 2,000 years ago, around the time the Greek branch Y66192 and the Jewish branch Y23115 separated. The Jewish males are under Y23115.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/

The Y18331 Greeks are from different parts of Greece, from north, south and west. Maybe Y18331 is from Slavs, but it has a very unusual distribution pattern when there are no Balkan Slavs yet with Y18331, and the east Europeans with the haplogroup are Jewish.

xri34
09-04-19, 18:40
My haplogroup is R-F2935 subclade of R-Z93. Quite rare in Greece.

noUseForAname
06-01-20, 00:34
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32871-The-journey-of-CTS5856). Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.
All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).
Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%
Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.
C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos
E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.
G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).
I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)
I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.
I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)
J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)
J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)
L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.
R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).


MAY I ask why you have removed especially vlachs and arvanites samples?

matadworf
06-01-20, 03:32
From personal research my paternal lineage in the Peloponnese is pretty old. Any sense when G2A entered the Peloponnese?

rafc
06-01-20, 16:59
MAY I ask why you have removed especially vlachs and arvanites samples?
I didn't remove especially Vlachs and Arvanites, I also removed Gypsies. The point was to give the numbers for those who self identified as Greek (in any case the number of Vlachs and Arvanites was quite limited).

noUseForAname
08-01-20, 00:50
I didn't remove especially Vlachs and Arvanites, I also removed Gypsies. The point was to give the numbers for those who self identified as Greek (in any case the number of Vlachs and Arvanites was quite limited).

And to what do Vlachs and Arvanites identify themselves as?

You also mention... The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).
HOW did you get this?...from all the major groups ev13 r1b j2a you picket up I2 with lowest % for Greeks and Albanian?...

FYI according to facts and data Greeks and Albanians have the most similar DNA in balkans...

Kelmendasi
08-01-20, 01:03
And to what do Vlachs and Arvanites identify themselves as?

You also mention... The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).
HOW did you get this?...from all the major groups ev13 r1b j2a you picket up I2 with lowest % for Greeks and Albanian?...

FYI according to facts and data Greeks and Albanians have the most similar DNA in balkans...
Today Arvanites primarily identify as Greeks, though most seem to be aware of their Albanian roots. As for the Vlachs (Aromanians), I'd imagine that they identify as Aromanians primarily, but also as Greeks though on a more secondary level. Not too sure on the identity of Aromanians in Greece, I'm mainly basing this on how the Aromanians of Albania identify.

The I2 in Northern Greece is a result of the Slavic migrations for the most part, Albanian (Arvanite) migrations contributed to R-Z2705, J-L283 and some E-V13.

bigsnake49
23-01-20, 18:48
Today Arvanites primarily identify as Greeks, though most seem to be aware of their Albanian roots. As for the Vlachs (Aromanians), I'd imagine that they identify as Aromanians primarily, but also as Greeks though on a more secondary level. Not too sure on the identity of Aromanians in Greece, I'm mainly basing this on how the Aromanians of Albania identify.

The I2 in Northern Greece is a result of the Slavic migrations for the most part, Albanian (Arvanite) migrations contributed to R-Z2705, J-L283 and some E-V13.

Most Aromanians and Vlachs in Greece identify as Greeks first and Aromanians/Vlachs second. There has been an effort by different cultural organizations to preserve the traditional culture (music, dress, festivals, language) so it does not go by the wayside. But all the efforts are not to establish an ethnic identity but a cultural heritage. Same thing as the efforts to preserve the cultural heritage of Eastern/North Thrace, Pontic Greeks, Macedonia, Epirus, Mainland Greece, Crete, etc.