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archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 21:06
Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

Shetop
19-07-11, 21:19
Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 21:51
Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?
Sure
1.The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A
Y Chromosome Perspective (Semino et.al) 2000
2.Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns (Bosch et.al) 2005
3.Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe (Battaglia et.al) 2008
4.Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan (Firasat et.al) 2007
5.Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects (Di Giaccomo et.al) 2003
6.The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et.al) 2011
7. Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (King et.al) 2008

sparkey
19-07-11, 22:05
An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.

iapetoc
19-07-11, 22:17
can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
Area Aetolo-acarnania.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 22:18
An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.
Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 22:20
can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
Area Aetolo-acarnania.
I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2

iapetoc
19-07-11, 22:22
I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2

quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,

sparkey
19-07-11, 22:49
Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized

The concentration of Haplogroup I in Crete is a decent amount higher than Armenia, do you suspect a founder effect? I had assumed that the migration had happened a bit earlier and the other way around or from a common source to the northwest, since the center of diversity of I2* as a whole is around Germany (and all extant I2* is more closely related to other I2* than it is to I2a or I2b). Although that still wouldn't put the oldest I2*-B in Crete older than 3000 years or so at most, probably less.

I2a-Din in Greece must be similarly young. I'm guessing that if any Haplogroup I is as old as the G2/J2?/E1b? there that came during the Neolithic, it's what little trace I2a1a is there. That makes Greece very non-Paleolithic on its Y-lines, with a lot of Neolithic and Bronze Age (and Iron Age? and Modern?) input. I don't see a lot of interesting geographic patterns other than variations on that theme.

Maciamo
19-07-11, 23:06
Archaiocapilos,

Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.

I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.

Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 23:10
quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,
That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples):
I1 : 3.7
I2a1b-Din : 9.1
I2*-B : 1.4
I2a2 : 1.6

Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
J2a : 12.2
J2b : 5.7

Haplogroup E1b1b is (440 samples)
E1b1b1a2 -V13 : 16.4
E1b1b1a*-M78 : 2.3
E1b1b1b -M81 : 0.5
E1b1b1c-M123 : 2.0

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 23:24
It is primarly because of Thessaly/Sesclo and Argolis/Nemea that E1b1b rises to 27% in Maciamo's tables but they specifically sampled people who live in villages next to neolithic sites in that study so it's natural for them to score as high as 40% while a 21-22% of E1b1b is more likely for Greeks as a whole. Only in Peloponnese E1b1b seems to be high in both cities and country/villages (Patra 44%, Argolis 35.1%), in Larissa the capital city scores 14% while Sesclo scores 40.4%.
In Athens where people settled from all around Greece E1b1b is 21.7%, in Macedonia is 21.8% , in Thrace it is 19.5%, in Ionia it is 19.1%, in Aegean it is 21.7%...

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 23:34
Archaiocapilos,

Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.

I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.

Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?
In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece
In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57
In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.
In
In

iapetoc
19-07-11, 23:39
That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples):
I1 : 3.7
I2a1b-Din : 9.1
I2*-B : 1.4
I2a2 : 1.6

Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
J2a : 12.2
J2b : 5.7

Haplogroup E1b1b is (440 samples)
E1b1b1a2 -V13 : 16.4
E1b1b1a*-M78 : 2.3
E1b1b1b -M81 : 0.5
E1b1b1c-M123 : 2.0


Finally and interesting,

I2a2<I1 !!!!!! + I2*-B !!!!!!

So myth of Cretan dancers is true,
cretans moved to Aetolia-acarnania before the myceneans,


my next is to find the connection south Italy R1a with the Greek Makedonia R1a,
Greek R1a is connected with Norwegian R1a and Caucasus due to R1a1* (SRY1532.2)

if they are connected then probably the R1a=Slavic is myth, but we have 2 R1a populations of different times,
1 western and 1 eastern which have different times of arrival and different movement,

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 23:42
King et.al included an additional 89 samples of GREEKS from Asia Minor Maciamo so I included them too. They actually live in Greece now if you diin't understand it...they were not Turks but they descend from Smyrna and Fokaia.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 00:47
Actually Smyrnians, Fokaians and Chians (from ancient Ionian regions) look pretty close in their Y-DNA (with the exception of I-M170 in Chios)
Smyrna / Fokaia / Chios
R1b1b2 : 27.6 / 22.6 / 26.2
R1a1a : 5.2 / 6.5 / 9.5
I : 12.1 / 16.2 / 2.4
J2a : 15.5 / 9.7 / 11.9
J2b : 6.9 / 3.2 / 4.8
J1 : 5.2 / 9.8 / 2.4
E1b1b : 17.2 / 22.6 / 23.8

Maciamo
20-07-11, 09:42
King et.al included an additional 89 samples of GREEKS from Asia Minor Maciamo so I included them too. They actually live in Greece now if you diin't understand it...they were not Turks but they descend from Smyrna and Fokaia.

The language they speak or spoke is irrelevant. Y-DNA studies normally look at the place where one's most distant known patrilineal ancestor lived. If one's family tree goes back 300 years and the most distant patrilineal ancestor lived in a different country at the time, it is what should be taken into account. In other words, Greeks who used to live in Anatolia should only be used for the data about Turkey. The point of Y-DNA studies is to estimate the ethnic admixtures in a country or region. If you intentionally remove an ethnic group that has lived in that region for thousands of years, the results will be skewed.

zanipolo
20-07-11, 09:44
the cretan numbers are distorted due to

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html


http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/13519532


http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:17264870

They do not resemble other Greek dna once you progress further into them

Maciamo
20-07-11, 09:53
In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece

That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?



In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57
In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.


All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greece, while I classified those results under Turkey.

But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.

Maciamo
20-07-11, 10:04
the cretan numbers are distorted due to

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html


http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/13519532


http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:17264870

They do not resemble other Greek dna once you progress further into them

That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

iapetoc
20-07-11, 10:17
the cretan numbers are distorted due to

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html


http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/13519532


http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:17264870

They do not resemble other Greek dna once you progress further into them


Well i read all exept 2 (i could not open PDF)

what you want to say? that R1b moved from Crete to North east Italy?
or enetocracy? and what about Roman times and Inner greek R1b?

all can explained easily, especially J,

zanipolo
20-07-11, 10:50
That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

ok

BTW, why do you not split north italy into north west and north east , north west being franco bias and north east germanic bias.

also what about others natios as well IF there is a degree of historical differentual data on people. I would like to see the difference between the catalan and castilian people in Spain as a must

also, if you noticed, the last link has lots of information ...........just hover over black text , it will open the information.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 10:54
That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?
You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...




All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.

But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.
Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

zanipolo
20-07-11, 10:54
Well i read all exept 2 (i could not open PDF)

what you want to say? that R1b moved from Crete to North east Italy?
or enetocracy? and what about Roman times and Inner greek R1b?

all can explained easily, especially J,

no , I wanted to say that R1b and J2 in crete are not "greek " but NE itlay, meaning , by just saying R!b everyone thinks its identical to R1b on the greek mainland , same with J2

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 11:19
That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?
You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...




All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.

But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.
Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

iapetoc
20-07-11, 11:22
no , I wanted to say that R1b and J2 in crete are not "greek " but NE itlay, meaning , by just saying R!b everyone thinks its identical to R1b on the greek mainland , same with J2

hahaha infact J2 is not NE Italian,
we find it also in Makedonia, the Bottiaians same J from Crete we find in Greek makedonia and is far ancient, before the begining of Makedonians,
and in Syrria due to colonization by Minoans,
That J2 in crete makedonia and rest of Greeks which also can be found in Pontic Greeks (not same but very close) IS THE PROVE OF THE HATTIANS the pelasgians, the Hath-Cretans or Eteo-cretans

and indeed that R1b you talk about exist in Makedonia Greece,
while the Chania R1b is different,

remember that Crete had enetocracy and that allows the existance of some venetic,
but that R1b exist also in Northern Greece,
a possible colonization from venice is accepted to the small numbers that exist every where venice occupied Greek lands, possibly exist and not found and in some other areas like 7 ionic Islands or some Aegean,
Remember that crete was given to Monferat who sold them to others and Kept thessaloniki
so some families, could moved there, as in many other areas,
the ones that live in plateau are typical,
I like crete very much and have friends there,
with a sharp eye you can find them easy

a more search to Enetic places could find some more places with that R1b, but small numbers, remember that Venice and Genouates were half accepted in the begining, half of them left, but half of them stayed,

better read again about Pelasgians, and Hattians, a non IE caucasoid (J)

zanipolo
20-07-11, 11:30
hahaha infact J2 is not NE Italian,
we find also in Makedonia, the Bottiaians same J from Crete we find in Greek makedonia and is far ancient, before the begining of Makedonians,
and in Syrria due to colonization by Minoans,

hahahaha I know , all the article says that the J2 and R!b is closer to the NE italy marker than the Balkan markers for crete.
LOL.
Maybe all the writers of the articles are idiots

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 11:52
hahahaha I know , all the article says that the J2 and R!b is closer to the NE italy marker than the Balkan markers for crete.
LOL.
Maybe all the writers of the articles are idiots
Actually mainland Greeks, Aegeans and Cretans share most of J2 sub-clades (like J2a4b, J2a4b1, J2a4h1a, J2b1, J2b2) but differ in percentages... Crete is an island so it is expected to be somewhat different than the Greek mainstream when it comes to frequencies of haplogroups (Crete has it's own J2a sub-clade for example which rises to 7-8%).
But Cretan R1b1a2 is not that different than that of other Greeks.
Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %

iapetoc
20-07-11, 11:56
Actually mainland Greeks, Aegeans and Cretans share most of J2 sub-clades (like J2a4b, J2a4b1, J2a4h1a, J2b1, J2b2) but differ in percentages... Crete is an island so it is expected to be somewhat different than the Greek mainstream when it comes to frequencies of haplogroups (Crete has it's own J2a sub-clade for example which rises to 7-8%).
But Cretan R1b1a2 is not that different than that of other Greeks.
Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %

yes zanipolo speaks about the red hair of lasithi plateu which share a common R1b marker with North and west of Venice area,

infact it is interesting that the coonections of that R1b some authors make it connection of J2 !!!!!!!

zanipolo
20-07-11, 11:57
Actually mainland Greeks, Aegeans and Cretans share most of J2 sub-clades (like J2a4b, J2a4b1, J2a4h1a, J2b1, J2b2) but differ in percentages... Crete is an island so it is expected to be somewhat different than the Greek mainstream when it comes to frequencies of haplogroups (Crete has it's own J2a sub-clade for example which rises to 7-8%).
But Cretan R1b1a2 is not that different than that of other Greeks.
Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %

if what you say is correct , then the U152 marker must have come from the alpine area to crete as this represent the celtic marker.

zanipolo
20-07-11, 12:01
Actually mainland Greeks, Aegeans and Cretans share most of J2 sub-clades (like J2a4b, J2a4b1, J2a4h1a, J2b1, J2b2) but differ in percentages... Crete is an island so it is expected to be somewhat different than the Greek mainstream when it comes to frequencies of haplogroups (Crete has it's own J2a sub-clade for example which rises to 7-8%).
But Cretan R1b1a2 is not that different than that of other Greeks.
Greeks / Cretans
R1b-M173 (total) : 17 % / 17 %
R1b1* : - / 0.5 %
R1b1a2-M269 : 2 % / 3 %
R1b1a2a-L23 : 11 % / 7 %
R1b1a2a1a2a-U152 : 4 % / 6.5 %


since you did not mention the ionion greeks, ( corfu, ithaca, zachanthos etc etc ) are they or do they have different markers?

as you state

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

joining aegean and ionion together.............unless my geography is wrong , I was taught the aegean is on the east of the greek mainland and the ionion is on the west of the mainland.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 12:01
R1b-U152 is also associated with Romans who I think brought this linage in Greece, allthough some originally Celtic influence might have occured

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 12:07
since you did not mention the ionion greeks, ( corfu, ithaca, zachanthos etc etc ) are they or do they have different markers?

as you state

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

joining aegean and ionion together.............unless my geography is wrong , I was taught the aegean is on hte east of the greek mainland and the ionion is on the west of the mainland.
Ionion pelagos(named after Io) is in the west but Ionia region (named after Ionians) is in the Aegean shores of Asia Minor that's why I classified them under a broad Eastern Greek region

iapetoc
20-07-11, 12:07
since you did not mention the ionion greeks, ( corfu, ithaca, zachanthos etc etc ) are they or do they have different markers?

as you state

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

joining aegean and ionion together.............unless my geography is wrong , I was taught the aegean is on hte east of the greek mainland and the ionion is on the west of the mainland.

hahahahaha

that is the mistake that i see many times done by many,

Ionic Islands is the west Islands,
Ionian is the minor asian area,

zanipolo
20-07-11, 12:10
hahahahaha

that is the mistake that i see many times done by many,

Ionic Islands is the west Islands,
Ionian is the minor asian area,

hmmm ok, then where is the ionion sea, is it not on the italian side?

zanipolo
20-07-11, 12:12
Ionion pelagos(named after Io) is in the west but Ionia region (named after Ionians) is in the Aegean shores of Asia Minor that's why I classified them under a broad Eastern Greek region

ok, so do you have data for the greek islands between Italy and greece ?

iapetoc
20-07-11, 12:16
hmmm ok, then where is the ionion sea, is it not on the italian side?

it is hard to understand in english,

Ιονιον is the south Adriatiic
Ιωνια is the east agean and minor asia

compare Ιονιον (neutral) Ιωνια (female)

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 12:26
That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).
I used King's data about Cretans because it was the largest and most refined (in sub-clades typed) paper allthough I Knew of the other papers too. I also wanted regions to be equally represented and if I included 504 Cretans my all-Greek frequencies would be distorted towards Cretan Y-DNA.
BTW when all 504 samples are counted the outcome is :
I : 12.4
R1a : 9.1
R1b : 15.3
G2 : 8.5
E1b1b : 10.9
J2 : 34.2
J1 : 4.8
LT : 4.4
* : 0.8
which is again a little different than your table...You make it seem as Cretans have 30% of what you call ''European'' haplogroups while they have around 37% the same way you make Greek ''European'' Y-DNA 39% while it is 43%. I detect a little bias towards Greeks, you even classified Smyrnians under Turks for God's shake...

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 12:53
In fact Smyrnians (ancient Smyrna being a small Aeolian city that was included in Ionian dodecapolis) seem closer to Aeolian Mytilene-Lesbos in E1b1b and J2a/J2b frequencies while Fokaia (which was a big Ionian city from the begining) seems closer to Ionian Chios for this haplogroups but Smyrnians have propably mixxed with Ionians and natives later so their R1b1a2 grew larger and their R1a1a was reduced...

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 15:10
the cretan numbers are distorted due to

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html


http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/13519532


http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:17264870

They do not resemble other Greek dna once you progress further into them
One of the studies you quoted links Cretans with mainland Greeks first, than with Cypriot Greeks, than with Anatolian Turks and lastly with other Balkanians (the frequencies of a certain gene decline from 5.6% in Cretans/ to 3.4% in mainland Greeks/ to 2.?% in Cypriot Greeks/ to 1.5% in Anatolian Turks (from west Asia Minor)/ to 0% in Bulgarians...

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 16:32
There's also a misunderstanding of what makes Cretans different from mainland Greeks...
E1b1b in Di Giaccomo's paper is :
Patra : 44.4% (8/18)
Ioannina : 29.2% (7/24)
Heraklion : 26.2 (11/42) Crete
Chania : 24.1% (7/29) Crete
Karditsa : 24.0% (6/25)
Serres : 24.0% (6/25)
Chios : 23.8% (10/42)
Thessalonike : 20.0% (4/20)
Mytilene : 18.5% (5/27)
Larissa : 14.3% (3/21)
Agrinio : 9.5% (2/21)

Rethymno : 9.1 (2/22) Crete
Lasithi : 4.0% (2/50) Crete

so Cretans with a 15.4% E1b1b in Di Giaccomo's paper look quite closer to mainland Greeks than the paper of King et.al (2007-08) suggested, primarly becauce of the large percentage of E1b1b in Argolis and Sesclo(where they tested villagers who are unlikely to represent the mainstream Greek population) in contrast to the low percentage of E1b1b observed from the 193 samples of Cretans.
Cretans are on the one extreme of Greek variation with 35% J2 / 11% E1b1b while
Peloponnesians are on the other extreme with 16% J2 / 37% E1b1b.
All the other Greeks fall within this two extremes, so Cretans are not more differentiated from other Greeks than Peloponnesians are. Why are always Cretans associated with the old and possible outdated conclusions of King et.al is something I can't understand...

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 16:40
I don't know what I did wrong in the above post. What I wrote is that Cretans in King et.al 2007 seem far away from mainland Greek samples but those Greek samples don't represent the mainstream Greek population (because they exxagerate E1b1b frequency) while the low frequency observed in Crete is doubled in Di Giaccomo's paper...
Cretans are on the one extreme of Greek variation with 35% J2 / 11% E1b1b while
Peloponnesian Greeks are on the other extreme with 16% J2 / 37% E1b1b
All the other Greeks fall within this two extremes so Cretans are as much atypical Greeks as Peloponnesians but it's only Cretans who are thought of as different than other Greeks...

Maciamo
20-07-11, 16:55
I have recalculated all the data for Greece using the same nominal geographic division as archaiocapilos, except that I placed the data of Agrinion in Central Greece instead of South Greece, and I didn't take Ionia into account.

There are two ways of calculating the frequencies for the whole country :

1) make the total of the samples of all regions for each haplogroup and calculate the percentages. The problem with this method is that it gives more weight to regions with more samples, like Crete which has 40% of the samples.

2) the average of percentage for the five regions, which gives a better balance country-wide.

There is one main difference between the two methods. The first gives a higher percentage of J2 (24% against 20.5%) and a lower percentage of E1b1b (19% against 22%). I actually did an average of the two methods. Other haplogroups don't vary much with either method.

Antigone
20-07-11, 17:34
ok, so do you have data for the greek islands between Italy and greece ?

Yes, I'd be interested in that data too zanipolo. The islands extend from Kerkyra (Corfu) in the north and continue down to Kythera and Antikythera (18kms) off western Crete. They have a different history and influence than the easten islands being under Venetian, French and lastly British rule before their return to Greece.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 17:56
Yes, I'd be interested in that data too zanipolo. The islands extend from Kerkyra (Corfu) in the north and continue down to Kythera and Antikythera (18kms) off western Crete. They have a different history and influence than the easten islands being under Venetian, French and lastly British rule before their return to Greece.
So they would have more R1b1a2 -U152 and G2a3b1,J1 while less of E1b1b,R1a1a and I-M170 than the rest of Greeks...haplogroup J2 would remain the same

iapetoc
20-07-11, 18:18
So they would have more R1b1a2 -U152 and G2a3b1,J1 while less of E1b1b,R1a1a and I-M170 than the rest of Greeks...haplogroup J2 would remain the same

nope I don't believe so, all will be decreased except R1b which might be raised, and a possible raise of I from east Adriatic,

a possible case of G2a3b1 is standar in greece and almost equal scattered except 2-3 areas, which raise a little,

Corfu and Kythera should be tottaly diferent,

remember Kythera was destroyed 2-3 last centuries,

while Corfu had Linton (a libro d' oro area) Venetian elite,

I am interesting in Ithake and Cephallonia and zakynthos

Antigone
20-07-11, 18:23
Thanks archaiocapilos and iapetoc!

Yes, Kerkyra, Kythera and even Antikythera are very different from each other. Kytherians have a Peloponnesian influence where as Antikythera is more influenced by Crete. But you can still see the Venetian and British influences as well.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 20:41
Maciamo I think that you should reconsider the whole -Ionian Greeks- issue because...
1. ex-Ottoman Empire was multi-ethnic with all of this ethnic/religious classes not inter-marrying with each other (especially Christians vs Muslims). This is confirmed by genetics where it is obvious that Asia Minor Greeks are completely different from Asia Minor Turks...
2. Their Y-DNA allmost perfectly resembles that of Aegean Greeks with whom I have classified them under Eastern Greeks (GREEKS not Greece). It also resembles average or mainstream Greek Y-DNA.
3. Their descendants live in Greece today and like all other Anatolian Greeks who were expelled from their homeland have contributed to the Greek gene pool, so if anything, their Y-DNA is relevant with modern Greece rather than modern Turkey
4. Greeks resemble Jews and Armenians in this matter (all of them being international peoples untill 200 years ago). Religion played a significant role in keeping this three peoples distinct from the people they lived among... so if you don't classify German Jews as Germans but as Ashkenazi you shouldn't classify Anatolian Greeks as Turks but as Eastern Greeks
5. Turkey as a distinct modern state was formed after the ex-change of populations between Greeks and Turks. So litterally speaking Ionian Greeks descend from Ottoman Empire Greeks 100 years ago...but Macedonian Greeks also origin from Ottoman Empire Greeks 100 years ago (because Macedonia was under Ottoman rule untill 1912) and so did all of Greeks 200 years ago (because all of Greece-and the Balkans-was Ottoman ruled back then). In fact Ionia region was for a while given to Greece between 1919-1922 because it was a region with significant Greek population (more than 50%) but Greeks lost the war and the current borders of Greece-Turkey were finally formed in 1922...
6. Finally why do you accept Anatolian Kurds as different from Anatolian Turks and you don't do the same for Anatolian Greeks?

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 17:06
Finally and interesting,

I2a2<I1 !!!!!! + I2*-B !!!!!!


No Iapetoc I think you got it wrong...what was called I2a2-Din now is called I2a1b-Din and what was called I2b now is called I2a2. The nomenclature changes fast as new mutations that link haplogroups are being identified...

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 17:27
In other words, Greeks who used to live in Anatolia should only be used for the data about Turkey. Why should they be used for Turkey since they never lived in a country named Turkey?

The point of Y-DNA studies is to estimate the ethnic admixtures in a country or region. If you intentionally remove an ethnic group that has lived in that region for thousands of years, the results will be skewed.
Now look Maciamo, when Turkish scientists sample an Afshar village (Afshars being nomadic Turks from central Asia who settled in Anatolia in various waves, even recently) this samples are not included in central Asia (Iran, Afghanistan or Uzbekistan) but under Turkey where they currently live...they also include Tatars and Turkmens and others who live in Turkey under their broad Turkish category and they rightly do it because they want to estimate the ethnic admixtures in modern Turks. I'm sure they include Turks of Albanian,Bosnian and Cretan origin too and they don't name them Balkan Turks or classify them under Albania, Bosnia or Crete.
Greeks who used to live in Anatolia are usefull to compare them with Anatolian Turks and detect the level of Greek admixture in Turks and the Turkish admixture in Greeks or the native/Anatolian admixture in both of them...but are not usefull to detect the modern ethnic admixture in Turkey since they don't live there, they live in Greece (Anatolian Greeks constitute close to 25% of modern Greeks) and should be used to identify modern Greek ethnic admixture, don't you think?

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 19:49
If not classify them as Eastern Greeks, what about Anatolian Greeks in a category of their own without including them under Greece or Turkey, the same way you do with Kurds?

Goga
21-07-11, 21:50
If not classify them as Eastern Greeks, what about Anatolian Greeks in a category of their own without including them under Greece or Turkey, the same way you do with Kurds?
Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 22:39
Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?
It's obvious that you didn't understand anything of what I said...this 89 samples are from Greek men who are currently living in Greece but have a paternal-origin from Anatolia region (Fokaia and Smyrne) like 25% of modern Greeks. Their ancestors who lived under Ottoman Empire had a native Greek language, were Christian Orthodox and allways thought of themselves as Greeks (which is now proven by genetics).
After the ex-change of populations between Greece and Turkey they came in Greece like 1.200.000 other Anatolian Greeks and settled in various places. If we are interested on who modern Greeks are by a genetic point of view they SHOULD definetely be included under Greece not Turkey, the same way that Turks of Albanian or Bosniac or Tatar origin are included under Turkey and German Jews under Ashkenazi.

iapetoc
21-07-11, 22:57
Do these 'Eastern Greeks' speak their own native language?

The issue with the Kurds is that the Anatolian Kurds are not assimilated into the Turkish nation and Turkish culture. And they do still consider themselves as 'Kurds'. They still speak their own language and have a distinguish culture (Kurdish/Iranic) to other Turk. What about those 'Eastern' Greeks?

better ask your shelf are they alllowed to speak it?

kurds are muslim so 'not enemy for Turks,
kurds were allied with turks,

Greek is forbiden language in turkey except Polis so don't compare things

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 22:58
In fact Goga the case of Anatolian Kurds holds even less credibility than the case of Anatolian Greeks because:
1. A lot of Kurds are assimilated into Turkish society.
2. They currently live in modern state of Turkey.
But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks
under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?

Goga
21-07-11, 23:10
If we are interested on who modern Greeks are by a genetic point of view they SHOULD definetely be included under Greece not Turkey, the same way that Turks of Albanian or Bosniac or Tatar origin are included under Turkey and German Jews under Ashkenazi.Take it easy man. I don't know much about the Greeks.

But I do agree with you about the Greeks from Turkey are Greeks. There're a lot Kurds in Central Asia. Persian kings deported many Kurds into Turkmenistan. They changed their DNA, but somehow I do consider them as Kurds..

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 23:12
better ask your shelf are they alllowed to speak it?
Ρε φιλε ουτε κι εσυ καταλαβες μου φαινεται. Η συγκεκριμενη ερευνα αφορα Ελληνες που εχουν πατρικη καταγωγη απο Ιωνια και ζουν στην Ελλαδα σημερα. Ο Ματσιαμος ομως υποστηριζει οτι πρεπει να περιληφθουν στην Τουρκια και δινει μια ηλιθια δικαιολογια για την επιλογη του. Πιστευω οτι το κανει επειδη
1. Εχουν πολυ R1b και θα ανεβασουν τον Ελληνικο μεσο ορο
2. Ειναι πολυ κοντα στους Χιωτες και Μυτιληνιους αποδεικνυοντας οτι οι Ελληνες δεν μπασταρδευτηκαν με τους Τουρκους (τουλαχιστον οι Σμυρνιοι)
Το οτι ειναι προκατειλημενος με τους Ελληνες φαινεται και απο αλλα πραγματα αλλα βαριεμαι να τα πιανω ενα-ενα. Προσεξε μονο οτι ενω ηξερε για ολες τις μελετες που αφορουσαν Ελληνες (το παραδεχτηκε) χρησιμοποιουσε εκεινες τις μελετες που αυξαναν το E1b1b και μειωναν το R1b.
Αν ειχε αγαθες προθεσεις η δικαιολογια του οτι αφου καταγονται απο το κρατος που σημερα ονομαζουμε Τουρκια πρεπει να συμπεριληφθουν στην κατηγορια Τουρκια θα εκανε το ιδιο και με τους Εβραιους ή τους Κουρδους. Ομως εφαρμοζει αυτον τον κανονα μονο για τους Ελληνες

Goga
21-07-11, 23:23
Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...

archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 23:37
Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...
If you call E1b1b Afro-Asiatic you are definetely confused because the sub-clades we find in Greece are either European (E1b1b1a2) or Levantine (E1b1b1a3 + E1b1b1c) while Greeks (native or Anatolian) score 0% African in Autosomal percentages. You should get more information about sub-clades of haplogroups...

sparkey
21-07-11, 23:38
But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks
under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?

Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."

Goga
21-07-11, 23:39
If you call E1b1b Afro-Asiatic you are definetely confused because the sub-clades we find in Greece are either European (E1b1b1a2) or Levantine (E1b1b1a3 + E1b1b1c) while Greeks (native or Anatolian) score 0% African in Autosomal percentages. You should get more information about sub-clades of haplogroups...
How come that other native Europeans have MUCH less E1b1b??? I know that even Adolf Hitler was E1b.. something, but hey E1b.. is somehow linked with Afro-Asiatic folks...

Goga
21-07-11, 23:42
Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."
Exactly! Those Anatolian Kurds live in their homeland (east Anatolia), while those 'Anatolian' Greeks left their homeland and migrated into Europe (Greece).

Maybe he considers Turkey as Greece ... :laughing:

iapetoc
21-07-11, 23:58
Btw, Greeks from Anatolia are less 'Afro-Asiatic' than native Greeks in Greece. Anatolian Greeks lived much more inland in Anatolia and had less contact with the Semites from Levant (Lebanon) and Egyptians...

are you sure?
what makes believe that levantines are semitic?

In fact anatolian Greeks are more closely to Levantines and more local to minor asia than kurds,

they share a j2a which exist only in them,

Goga
21-07-11, 23:59
are you sure?
what makes believe that levantines are semitic?Maybe because they speak a Semitic language... ?

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 00:02
Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."
Would you classify Ashkenazi Jews under Poland or Germany? And where did Maciamo ever claimed that he tries to identify native ancestry so he uses his samples this way? If he did so he should have a Native Anatolian category not a Turkish one, while he should reject those samples from Greece who might have distant Albanian or Slavic ancestry but he doesn't. He only does it for Greeks from Anatolia that's what I'm saying.
BTW the your case is different than Anatolian Greeks. If you were of Amerindian ancestry and had emigrated to Switzerland but returned to your homeland and your DNA was similar with other Amerindians then you should be clasified under Amerindians not Swiss (place Greek instead of Amerindian and Turk in place of Swiss and you've got the right eqivelant...

Goga
22-07-11, 00:02
are you sure?
what makes believe that levantines are semitic?

In fact anatolian Greeks are more closely to Levantines and more local to minor asia than kurds,

they share a j2a which exist only in them,


Hebrew and Aramaic are originally from the Levant. These are Semitic languages, just a suggestion?

I know that Greeks are more related to Afroasiatic Levantines and northern Africans (egyptians) than to the Iranic Kurds. I do 100% agree with you. Thank you for stressing this out...

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 00:24
Hebrew and Aramaic are originally from the Levant. These are Semitic languages, just a suggestion?

I know that Greeks are more related to Afroasiatic Levantines and northern Africans (egyptians) than to the Iranic Kurds. I do 100% agree with you. Thank you for stressing this out...
Do you feel superior from the ancient Egyptians and Levantines (Phoenicians & Jews) who you asoume contributed their genes to ancient Greeks and they to us? Do you feel superior from Greeks because you think that you are a pure Iranic?

Goga
22-07-11, 00:30
Do you feel superior from the ancient Egyptians and Levantines (Phoenicians & Jews) who you asoume contributed their genes to ancient Greeks and they to us? Do you feel superior from Greeks because you think that you are a pure Iranic?No, because Kurds have also some Afro-Asiatic genes (j1 and e haplogroups) from the Levant (Jewish & Babylonian-Akkadian-Assyrian) in them too. Kurds don't deny it! And Kurds are not ashamed of it but are proud of it. Kurds don't try to change and rewrite their own history, like some other folks are trying to rewrite the human history…

Btw, Kurdish ancestors (Mittani royal house and Kassites nobility) had many connections with the ancient Egyptians too.

But you can't change the facts. Blue is blue, green is green, white is white, black is black and red is red...

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 01:06
Who is trying to rewrite human history? And who is ashamed of his Afro-Asiatic ancestry and tries to hide it?

sparkey
22-07-11, 01:20
Would you classify Ashkenazi Jews under Poland or Germany?

Well it depends on what you're trying to measure, doesn't it? Few Ashkenazi Jews can prove their patriline came from Israel; in fact, the Jewish DNA Project has a good sample of Ashkenazi Jews with typically Germanic haplogroups like I1. So, if what we want is the entire gene pool of those whose families lived in Germany at the beginning of a genealogical timeframe, then I would put the ones in Germany in the Germany sample to avoid bias. But of course I would never put in an ethnic Jew if the intent is to find out the genetics of ethnic Germans. Similarly, you seem to be interested in ethnic Greeks... if so, your methods are appropriate. In fact, your numbers may be more useful for understanding the historic movements of people. But there is value in both, as long as we're clear with what we're doing.


And where did Maciamo ever claimed that he tries to identify native ancestry so he uses his samples this way? If he did so he should have a Native Anatolian category not a Turkish one, while he should reject those samples from Greece who might have distant Albanian or Slavic ancestry but he doesn't. He only does it for Greeks from Anatolia that's what I'm saying.

I guess I should be careful to avoid "speaking for" Maciamo, that's just the impression I got from him, and how I think about things. But I think he's doing things based mostly on people whose families are from modern countries within a genealogical timeframe (except in special cases like Kurds), in which case he seems consistent. He can correct me if I'm wrong.


BTW the your case is different than Anatolian Greeks. If you were of Amerindian ancestry and had emigrated to Switzerland but returned to your homeland and your DNA was similar with other Amerindians then you should be clasified under Amerindians not Swiss (place Greek instead of Amerindian and Turk in place of Swiss and you've got the right eqivelant...

OK you got me there, I'd have to be in the situation you describe to be perfectly analogous.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 01:38
Well it depends on what you're trying to measure, doesn't it? Few Ashkenazi Jews can prove their patriline came from Israel; in fact, the Jewish DNA Project has a good sample of Ashkenazi Jews with typically Germanic haplogroups like I1. So, if what we want is the entire gene pool of those whose families lived in Germany at the beginning of a genealogical timeframe, then I would put the ones in Germany in the Germany sample to avoid bias. But of course I would never put in an ethnic Jew if the intent is to find out the genetics of ethnic Germans. Similarly, you seem to be interested in ethnic Greeks... if so, your methods are appropriate. In fact, your numbers may be more useful for understanding the historic movements of people. But there is value in both, as long as we're clear with what we're doing.

I have allready explained that the case of Anatolian Greeks is even more special than Kurds...because they now live in their original homeland (yes I'm of this crazy folks who believe that modern Greeks have at least a fair amount of ancient Greek DNA, which offcourse doesnt exclude forreign input) and their Y-DNA appears to be almost a perfect mainstream Greek example...in fact Ionian Greeks and those from the Aegean islands might be the purest of Greeks since Ionians definetely didn't mix with Turks (no Central or East Asian haplogroups detected) and Albanian or Slavic influence in Ionia is zero...allthough some native Anatolian ancestry can't be ruled out.

iapetoc
22-07-11, 01:42
I have allready explained that the case of Anatolian Greeks is even more special than Kurds...because they now live in their original homeland (yes I'm of this crazy folks who believe that modern Greeks have at least a fair amount of ancient Greek DNA, which offcourse doesnt exclude forreign input) and their Y-DNA appears to be almost a perfect mainstream Greek example...in fact Ionian Greeks and those from the Aegean islands might be the purest of Greeks since Ionians definetely didn't mix with Turks (no Central or East Asian haplogroups detected) and Albanian or Slavic influence in Ionia is zero...allthough some native Anatolian ancestry can't be ruled out.


and that could be of Vrygian most which are considered to have relativity,

Elias2
22-07-11, 01:43
My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 01:50
OK you got me there, I'd have to be in the situation you describe to be perfectly analogous.
I could also have said :
Since your ancestors emigrated to USA from Switzerland (like Ionian Greeks emigrated to Anatolia from Greece) and your Y-DNA appears closer to Swiss than Native Americans (like the Y-DNA of Ionians is closer to Greeks than Turks) then you should be classified under Swiss not Native American...

iapetoc
22-07-11, 01:53
Maybe because they speak a Semitic language... ?

hahaha

maybe they did not before?

sparkey
22-07-11, 01:57
I have allready explained that the case of Anatolian Greeks is even more special than Kurds...because they now live in their original homeland (yes I'm of this crazy folks who believe that modern Greeks have at least a fair amount of ancient Greek DNA, which offcourse doesnt exclude forreign input) and their Y-DNA appears to be almost a perfect mainstream Greek example...in fact Ionian Greeks and those from the Aegean islands might be the purest of Greeks since Ionians definetely didn't mix with Turks (no Central or East Asian haplogroups detected) and Albanian or Slavic influence in Ionia is zero...allthough some native Anatolian ancestry can't be ruled out.

I think modern Greeks have quite a lot of ancient Greek DNA, and are certainly the ethnic group with the most ancient Greek DNA as a percentage. Without looking, I would guess the Aegean Greeks to have the highest percentage within the subgroups, as you suggest. And I wouldn't doubt minimal Anatolian input into Ionians, especially with the trends you describe... have you separated the subclades of R1b among Ionians like you did with Cretans earlier?

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 01:58
My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.
I'm of completely Anatolian ancestry [my father was of Pontic Greek origin from Amissos/Samsun & Sevasteia/Sivas (Sevasteia could be classified as Cappadocian Pontus), while my mother origins from Bithynia (near Nicomedia/Iznik)...
So I may have Phrygian ancestry too...

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 02:06
I think modern Greeks have quite a lot of ancient Greek DNA, and are certainly the ethnic group with the most ancient Greek DNA as a percentage. Without looking, I would guess the Aegean Greeks to have the highest percentage within the subgroups, as you suggest. And I wouldn't doubt minimal Anatolian input into Ionians, especially with the trends you describe... have you separated the subclades of R1b among Ionians like you did with Cretans earlier?
No but I read in Dieneke's site that they resemble Balkan and Anatolian sub-clades of R1b (most of it being L23 I think allthough there could be older M269 too)...this sample was not used in the big meta-analysis of R1b haplogroup that I used for Greeks and Cretans so we don't know if L11 is present (but the high amount of I1 and I2a2/ex-I2b1 might give as a clue that it is present at least in similar quantity with other Greeks.

iapetoc
22-07-11, 05:26
Well, I understand where he is coming from, and it doesn't seem like flat bias to me. Those Greeks who can trace their ancestry back to what is now Turkey he considers to be in a similar situation as me... I'm an American, but my Y-line would not be useful for a study of Native Americans, it would be useful (if anything) in a study of historic Swiss populations, because my Y-line comes from Switzerland. Similarly, Maciamo wants to remove Anatolian Greeks from his sample pool of those native to the land encompassed by modern Greece.

I think there's value in both your methods and Maciamo's methods. I think the difference is that you're doing a summary of "Greeks," and he is doing a summary of "Greece."


Hmmm

ok Sparkey 1 example question

at least 3-6 million Greeks left Turkey (or died, slained etc) from 1914 times mostly in 1922 -1923 and 1953-4 (from Polis)
majority came to Greece, many of them to ex Ussr, but return back to greece after 78 and then
but at least 1 500 000 went to Usa and Australia,
if some of Them ask a gennetic and proves to be from Smyrna, what you answer him?
Turkish or Greek?

the cases of Elia Kazan in Movie America-America are millions, if a grandson wants to find roots what you answer him?

besides when we search for greeks how we will know the exact, Example PONTIC greeks are connected with Miletus, some of them might went to India with Alexander, do we exclude them in search for Miletian Dna in search of Pakistan or Afgan mountains?
I agree with Macciamo in case of origin to specify origin,
They Are Minor Asian, But what are they Turks?
we are giving Greek Dna to Turks?
souldn't we connect them with Greek?
I mean 1 sum of Greek as it was in time of search, and 1 sum of total Greeks, including the Ussr Greeks that moved,
The Georgian Ossetian greeks that moved, the Ucraine Greeks that Moved, The Smyrna greeks, the Pontic Greeks, The Thracian Greeks, In Fact that is another story, a population of >150 000 exchanged with Bulgaria and Fyrom, and 200 000 with Turksih from Con/polis and last The Alexandreian Greeks?
these people now live in Greece,
so a sum of it should help reconsider the Greek Dna and %,

I mean 2 tools, 1 the one we have now, and 1 of migrations-refuggees ,
that could help the ones who left abroad to find their gennetic, infact could give more clear vision of clear Y-Dna population of Both

LeBrok
22-07-11, 06:56
My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

Now we have a problem. Are the Turks lesser human beings than Greeks?:confused2:

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 07:13
Now we have a problem. Are the Turks lesser human beings than Greeks?:confused2:
No we just don't want to be included under Turks or Turkey because we are actually Greeks. Do you have a problem with that too?

barbarian
22-07-11, 08:23
Now we have a problem. Are the Turks lesser human beings than Greeks?:confused2:

No, he doesnt want to say it like this. During the Ottoman empire, all the minorities and natives lived their nationalitty and religious independently. ottomans didnt force them to change their lands or religions. however, the religion difference didnot let the mix of different ethnics. although, it helped the coalitain of different ethnic groups having the same religions. for example armenians, greeks and cypriots are like brothers now. in the same manner, turks and arabs got closer, although they had/have completeley different habits and roots.

Just after the WW1 greece wanted their own country after 2000 years, and had a fight with ottomans which caused some trauma in the both sides. the goverments from the both sides used this trauma for their political benefits. as a result, the children of both sides of agean sea are enemy to each other now.

i live in a small city called karadeniz ereğli (ancient heraklia pontika, heraklia = ereğli; pontika = karadeniz) for 1 year, close to samsun (Amissos) and iznik (Nicomedia). and when i say to native people that they may be from a greek origin, they feel like insulted. they hate greek people.

barbarian
22-07-11, 08:31
Most of greek named (most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.

zanipolo
22-07-11, 09:18
The western greeks on corfu, zante, ithaca etc etc must have a lot of cretan genes, because after the 23 year war between the Venetians and the Ottomans for Crete in the 17th Century. The arrangement was that the Venetians could take all the items, gold and also people ( be it greek/cretan nobles, merchants and peasants ) who did not want to stay under the Ottomans.

These people, the Venetians placed mainly on Corfu , but the rest where placed on the other Islands to the south.
As you would know there are a lot of cretan surnames which end with -kis on these islands.
These numbers would definetly tip the gene data one way or the other.

iapetoc
22-07-11, 10:24
Most of greek named (again most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.


so you know Hatti,

do you know the original name of karadeniz?

ΑXeinos Pontos Αξεινος ποντος Greek
Axaina in Iranian
Cerno in Slavic
possible Askernos in Vrygian (recostructed)
means the color of rust of iron
modern Oxeidosis Oxein = rust
later change the to Euxinus

Maciamo
22-07-11, 10:45
But Maciamo correctly sees the inconsistance of placing Kurds under Turkey so he even gives them a non-official region name (Kurdistan/Turkey Kurds)... but he classifies Greeks who speak Greek, live in Greece and would consider it an insult to be called Turks under Turkey. Do you see how biased against Greeks he is?

You are wrong. There is NO category for "Kurds" in the Y-DNA tables, only Kurdistan (separated geographically by country, between Iraq and Turkey because Kurdistan is not independent, although the name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan) for the region is official and internationally recognised). If you cannot see the difference between a region and a people then maybe you shouldn't waste my time on this forum anymore.


My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian ? Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.

Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.

If an American Greek provided his Y-DNA results for a project, he would be classified under Greece if his ancestors came from Greece, and Anatolia/Turkey if his ancestors lived there. Never under USA.

And by the way, I didn't invent the methodology. That is the most common way of classifying Y-DNA, which is why I stick to it.

zanipolo
22-07-11, 10:59
My fathers side can trace their ancestry to Smyrna in Ionia, and I would take it as a big insult if I was classified as a turk.

this means nothing, I traced my family , 14 generations ( and still going ) in the veneto, italy and yet I am R1b1c9 s-21 , which IIRC is germanic .......correct me if i am wrong. Which should I claim to be?

some people reflect the nationality they are today and not what they are genetically. I don't think you need to be insulted.

Like the croats ( some ) claim they are illyrian stock and not slavic , the claim is due to being in that area of europe.

iapetoc
22-07-11, 16:53
No, he doesnt want to say it like this. During the Ottoman empire, all the minorities and natives lived their nationalitty and religious independently. ottomans didnt force them to change their lands or religions. however, the religion difference didnot let the mix of different ethnics. although, it helped the coalitain of different ethnic groups having the same religions. for example armenians, greeks and cypriots are like brothers now. in the same manner, turks and arabs got closer, although they had/have completeley different habits and roots.

Just after the WW1 greece wanted their own country after 2000 years, and had a fight with ottomans which caused some trauma in the both sides. the goverments from the both sides used this trauma for their political benefits. as a result, the children of both sides of agean sea are enemy to each other now.

i live in a small city called karadeniz ereğli (ancient heraklia pontika, heraklia = ereğli; pontika = karadeniz) for 1 year, close to samsun (Amissos) and iznik (Nicomedia). and when i say to native people that they may be from a greek origin, they feel like insulted. they hate greek people.


today in pontus live 4 Nations,
the most old Is the Greek (mithridates people) and the Laz
the later about 1460 Turks
and the new that was given after 1923,

the case of Hate you talk is Strange Hate, and you know it,
for Greeks they are proud that have Stay pure to old values and language, and to 'truth'
the older turks are proud that they seen the Light of Allah and find the 'truth' but they don't hate and you know it, it is a political hate,
the new Turks after 1923 who occupied the opened land, they do hate enough,
Here where I live many Pontic Greeks and smyrna people live,
when they first came , some 'wise quys' called them Turks espeacially the SEbasteia ones, cause there it was forbiden to speak Greek, it was an insult to them, cause they were proud that kept Greek ID for 400 years,

the ones who moved to Turkey by exchange are proud to be turks and moved them in exchange cause they were proud of Being Turks, they Hate Greeks cause they revolt and ask their Freedom, so they had to move,

the 3rd Part or the old who change Religion, does not Hate, simply believes that they have seen the truth of Allah,
that group is the majority,

If you live there you know what I talking about,

in the next village by me lived a legend who came at 1922 from smyrna at age of 12, until her death 2008, she learn a few Greek,
at 1985 about her son took her to Qutacheia, believe me the video is shoking,
he spoke to some people and 1rst day nobody spoke to her, the 3rd day when visit all she found her house etc, the major speak to her and she answered him to the local dialect, all accepted her, she told her son, My people are here, she even remembered an old water fountain, that was in use any more,
Local people ask her to stay and tell all the historical and local customs he knew,
she even remeber family names, and places after her mother,

the hate is political result,
do you know how many Turks come and visit areas and villages before exchange?
I don't want to give names, but the last Turk that was 20 km by my village, was buried by state, in order of memorance,
her sons are efent in Scutari (asian Polis)

besides since you know Hatti, then you know that Hatti is 1 parameter of Greek people,
and the most closer to hatti language might be the Migrellian language

LeBrok
22-07-11, 17:14
No we just don't want to be included under Turks or Turkey because we are actually Greeks. Do you have a problem with that too?

How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 17:25
And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian ?
No because it would be actually true...but my ancestors were also Greeks (at least part Greeks) and being classified under Turkey is an insult (Turkey as a name wasn't even in use back then, Greeks only knew of Turks=[Sultan-Muslims-Jennisaries-Enemies] and they used ancient names for their homeland like Ionia, Pontus, Kappadokia or their cities - Konstantinoupole, Smyrne, Trapezounta, Amissos, Kaisareia etc.)


Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.
Come on Maciamo...allthough your Franks/France example seems resonable at first sight, when you make a France category we don't think of Franks obviously, but we think of French people the same way we think Greek people for Greece and Turks for Turkey. That's why I don't like GREEKS being classified under Turkey, even if we are Anatolians in origin. That's why you seperate Kurdistan from Turkey, so we can think of Kurds when we see it. Anyway I'm not able to force you do something you don't want to...



Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.

I explained that the case of Greeks is very similar with that of Jews, don't you see that?
We had a wide and ancient Diaspora (modern countries of Turkey, Syria, Israel, Egypt, Armenia, Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Fyrom, Austria, Hungary, Egypt) and we kept a kind of segregation (not as strict as the Jewish one offcourse)...
Finally Ionian and other Anatolian Greeks are currently living in Greece and constitute a large section of the population... I'm interestd in origins of Greeks that's why I made the whole thread...

sparkey
22-07-11, 17:37
Hmmm

ok Sparkey 1 example question

at least 3-6 million Greeks left Turkey (or died, slained etc) from 1914 times mostly in 1922 -1923 and 1953-4 (from Polis)
majority came to Greece, many of them to ex Ussr, but return back to greece after 78 and then
but at least 1 500 000 went to Usa and Australia,
if some of Them ask a gennetic and proves to be from Smyrna, what you answer him?
Turkish or Greek?

Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.


They Are Minor Asian, But what are they Turks?
we are giving Greek Dna to Turks?
souldn't we connect them with Greek?

I hope that there aren't any ethnic studies that are doing this. But, of course, Maciamo's tables aren't ethnic.


I mean 2 tools, 1 the one we have now, and 1 of migrations-refuggees ,
that could help the ones who left abroad to find their gennetic, infact could give more clear vision of clear Y-Dna population of Both

I agree with this.

By the way, as I've mentioned before, I'm sympathetic to the skepticism Greeks have toward Turks. My wife's family includes Assyrians who are skeptical of Turks for similar historical reasons (and it's not like there aren't any instances of Turks attempting to perpetuate the animosity (http://www.aina.org/news/20100829191841.htm)). Although, as always, I wish that people could let history be history and get along with others despite their ethnicity, both the descendants of historical aggressors and historical victims...

iapetoc
22-07-11, 19:25
Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.


that is what I mention
we classify Jews by religion mostly, due to diaspora, ok
we classify under origin according studies, but should not be as geographical names,




I hope that there aren't any ethnic studies that are doing this. But, of course, Maciamo's tables aren't ethnic.

I don't deny the intense simply for some cases like that the term Minor Asia is not better?

and many other cases, like areas who dwell by 3-4
like armenians Kurds azeris turks,
or caucas areas

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 19:46
How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?
In fact hate and dislike are not something we choose to feel, we just feel it...anyway I don't actually hate Turks (I know that they are not responsible for the crimes of Ottomans and Young Turks) but as I said I don't wnat to be classified under ''Turkey'' category because I and my ancestors never had a Turkish self-identification or felt any closeness to the Turks. Do you get it now?

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 20:06
Most of greek named (most of them reproduced from their original name by adding -io, -ios) anatolian cities were organized during the great colonization era (500-1000 BC) as a greek colony, although there was already a native settlement before greeks were arrived. e.g in archaiocapilos's Sevasteia (and in all capadocia), there was a big hatti settlement 2000-3000 years before greeks were arrived. or in karadeniz ereğli (heraklia pontika), there were mariadyns for more than 2000 years before miletos people arrived (600 BC) and force them to be their slaves, same for trabzon. in this period there were greek colonization even in moldova, ukraine, russia, africa and in italy.
Besides Sinope/Sinop all other Pontic Greek cities were founded by Greeks. Amissos/Samsun was a colony of Sinope and nothing is known for the settlement before Greeks arrived (there could be a little native settlement but I doubt because Greeks usually colonized free seaside areas suitable for trade with the inlanders). Trapezous/Trabzon is a colony of Sinope and always had a Greek name. Nicomedia/Iznik was founded by Dorian-Megarians (Megara-Greece) with the name 'Astakos' but was later renamed Nicomedia in honor of Nicomedes of Bithynia. Megarians also founded Heracleia Pontica/Eregli and it's named after Heracles (a Dorian hero)
When the Greeks settled among natives they didn't enslave them as you say nor did they Hellenized them by force...it was a long proccess of natives adopting Greek culture and intergrating into the main Greek population (Christianity and Roman Empire helped a lot)

zanipolo
22-07-11, 21:51
Their genetics should never determine how they're classified in a study, their classification should be determined before we get a genetic result. If their genealogy proves to be from Smyrna as far back as they can trace it, then they would be classified under "Turkey" in a geographic study like Maciamo is doing, and would be classified under "Greek" in an ethnic study like archaiocapilos is doing.




.


thats silly

so the if you trace your family to be Prussian, you say you are classified Polish now!. Do I understand you correctly?

You seem to not realise that nationality ( nations ) only started in the 18th century. Before this it was regional, yes some states like france , which was a kingdom, had a more uniform united system, but others like the german states where only united under the Reichstag, a "union" to provide men and money to the Hapsburgs. As a state you can always withdraw from this "union" and venture on your own, like Bavaria did on more than 1 occasion.

If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?

sparkey
22-07-11, 22:11
thats silly

so the if you trace your family to be Prussian, you say you are classified Polish now!. Do I understand you correctly?

No, not "Polish," "Poland." As in, their ancestors can be traced to the region encompassed by modern Poland. There is value in classifying that way. By doing so, we're avoiding the biased assumption that their ancestors were originally from modern Germany, went to modern Poland, and came back to modern Germany--certainly nothing that can be proven. Absent other proven genealogical knowledge, we should take modern Poland as their point of origin. Then, we can make maps that don't make assumptions based on how we suspect ethnic groups to have moved historically.

Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.


You seem to not realise that nationality ( nations ) only started in the 18th century. Before this it was regional, yes some states like france , which was a kingdom, had a more uniform united system, but others like the german states where only united under the Reichstag, a "union" to provide men and money to the Hapsburgs. As a state you can always withdraw from this "union" and venture on your own, like Bavaria did on more than 1 occasion.

No, I realize this. Using the regions encompassed by modern countries is usually done for convenience, but you could pick any arbitrary region. If you're really interested in historical Bavaria, for example, you can seek people who are Bavarian as far back as they can trace, even though Bavaria is no longer functioning as an independent state.


If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?

Yeah, convenience. You don't have to if you'd rather compile different geographic tables. For example, a table of just historical Smyrna would be interesting.

zanipolo
22-07-11, 22:20
No, not "Polish," "Poland." As in, their ancestors can be traced to the region encompassed by modern Poland. There is value in classifying that way. By doing so, we're avoiding the biased assumption that their ancestors were originally from modern Germany, went to modern Poland, and came back to modern Germany--certainly nothing that can be proven. Absent other proven genealogical knowledge, we should take modern Poland as their point of origin. Then, we can make maps that don't make assumptions based on how we suspect ethnic groups to have moved historically.

Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.



No, I realize this. Using the regions encompassed by modern countries is usually done for convenience, but you could pick any arbitrary region. If you're really interested in historical Bavaria, for example, you can seek people who are Bavarian as far back as they can trace, even though Bavaria is no longer functioning as an independent state.



Yeah, convenience. You don't have to if you'd rather compile different geographic tables. For example, a table of just historical Smyrna would be interesting.

ok, good explanation

Hope we do not get another "yugoslavia', then the system will be shown as flawed.

regards

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 22:44
If he traced his family to Smyrna, which is Turkey, was Ottoman, was Byzantine, was Roman, was Ionion Greek and even IIRC was mycenean, then why must he be placed as turkish? because its the latest ?
That is also a good point. You see Smyrna had such a long and continous Greek presence
(from 10th cent. BCE to 1922 CE/ 3000 years!!!!) -Greeks being allways the majority- that is the least Anatolian Greek sample you could find. As I explained Ionians seem very mainstream Greeks like those from the Aegean...Pontic or Cappadocian Greeks would be really helpfull in identifying ancient Greek Y-DNA versus Native Anatolian Y-DNA since they seem more West/Asian-Anatolian than Smyrnians in phenotype... I guess more G2a and J2, less E1b1b and I. The other haplogroups wouldn't be affected.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 22:57
If I guess right Eastern Anatolian Greeks should be closer to Cretans and Cypriotes (because of ancient Anatolian origin) allthough Cretans received more NW European influence (I1, R1b-L11) while Cypriotes more Mycenean Greek and Levantine (E1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1c-M123) and at last Eastern Anatolian Greeks more West Asian (J2a, G2a, R1b-L23).

LeBrok
23-07-11, 08:37
In fact hate and dislike are not something we choose to feel, we just feel it...?
All right, maybe we are getting somewhere...
Ah, the feelings, we are slaves to them, right? We can't do much because we feel something and we have to act upon it. It's pretty much how humans behave, it's pretty much the truth that we are slaves of feelings. Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts?
How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.


I don't wnat to be classified under ''Turkey'' category because I and my ancestors never had a Turkish self-identification or felt any closeness to the Turks.
Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?

LeBrok
23-07-11, 08:47
Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.

Prussia is even more complicated, they had more Baltic genes than Germanic. After the WW2 most of the population was moved to East Germany by Stalin's order, not much left in Poland.

iapetoc
23-07-11, 10:21
All right, maybe we are getting somewhere...
Ah, the feelings, we are slaves to them, right? We can't do much because we feel something and we have to act upon it. It's pretty much how humans behave, it's pretty much the truth that we are slaves of feelings. Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts?
How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.


Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?

the case is more complicated,
simply with time and peace trust might gained,
there many cases of respect and cases like you said,
and many oposite,
there still casus beli in 2011,
besides that hostility serve both the politicians of each country,
and the big powers who sell guns,
the simple people are not murderers,
even if good relation come,
and many politicians work in that way, there will be always a bomber,
centuries must pass,
the only both have to do is respect international laws, and stop pushing hate to simple people,
but 'warmheads' always exist, to bomb relations,

besides how can you convise a neo-turk or a greek when he grand fathers were killed, and his family was forced to immigrate, etc
it is not ww2 cases of war, it is more complicated,

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 17:15
Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts? If you think that feelings are animal insticts you are hillarious. Especially hate which is human specific...
BTW cherry-picking a shortened phrase out of a post doesn't help your cause, right next to my quoted words I explain that I don't hate modern Turks (especially for crimes their supposed ancestors did to my supposed ancestors)


How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
You could place any other nationality of this planet instead of Greek and you would be still right. And you are not impartial to Greeks-others....


You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
I would feel like a proud Turk and I would definetely act as one (as a proud Turk not as a racist one)


Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
How exactly do I act that is offending to anyone? Please define ''act like this''.
I created this thread because Maciamo's table was wrong about Greece and he agreed and changed the frequencies. As for the rest of my argument about Ionian Greeks I didn't force anyone to accept my point of view allthough noone had any reasonable arguement against it.


By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.
If Socrates was alive he would stand by my side not yours Le Brok...
Remember that he was the best friend of truth and reason that was ever born on this planet. Do you think he would stand next to someone who can't argue properly but cherry-picks and changes the meaning of their interlocutor's words?


Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?
I'm almost sure because not even Anatolian Turks have much Turkish blood.
Are you kidding? Adopted Turkish kid by a Greek family? How could this ever happen?
But let's suppose that it did like you say. I would feel 100% Greek because it would be my culture and my heritage-if you don't love your family, your friends, your neighbores, the traditions of your people you are not worthy of living because you can't love anything...
I never claimed that Greeks must be pure in their genes to be included under Greek nation. This is something only fascists and racists do.

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 18:56
Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 19:30
And it seems that he uses the average for each region to get final results only for Greece and not for Italy...I just used the same way he uses for Greece about Italy and the out come is totally different than his table's numbers (for example R1b=35.8 with the method he uses for Greeks while in Maciamo's table R1b=49.0!!!!!). I guess he will answer to me that Northern Italy is more populated than Southern Italy or Sicily so he had to give more weight to Central North but Greek regions don't have the same population either (Northern Greece has 3.000.000 people/Anatolian Greeks included, while Central Greece has 1.500.000 people and South Greece has 5.000.000 people).
Aegean islands have a population of 500.000 and Crete around 1.000.000).....
In a scientific forum you shouldn't change method in similar problems because your results will be manipulated.
Finally my method in the starting post is more acurrate than Maciamo's (he actually uses this method for every other population except the Greeks) because samples correlate better with real population.

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 19:42
Prussia is even more complicated, they had more Baltic genes than Germanic. After the WW2 most of the population was moved to East Germany by Stalin's order, not much left in Poland.
Have you read any of my posts? Because Ionian Greeks were expelled from Turkey (after 1922) and they all currently live in Greece, not much left in Turkey. That's why so little E-V13 is left there, ALL Greeks have gone.
And Maciamo insists that genetical Greeks who live in Greece, speak Greek and identify as Greeks should be classified under Turkey all though not even one of them lives there now. How much more absurd can one be?

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 19:50
Other mistakes of Maciamo. With his method Greek R1b=15.8 which would become 16 not 15.5... little incosistances that reveal the bias towards Greeks.

barbarian
24-07-11, 10:52
Besides Sinope/Sinop all other Pontic Greek cities were founded by Greeks. Amissos/Samsun was a colony of Sinope and nothing is known for the settlement before Greeks arrived (there could be a little native settlement but I doubt because Greeks usually colonized free seaside areas suitable for trade with the inlanders). Trapezous/Trabzon is a colony of Sinope and always had a Greek name. Nicomedia/Iznik was founded by Dorian-Megarians (Megara-Greece) with the name 'Astakos' but was later renamed Nicomedia in honor of Nicomedes of Bithynia. Megarians also founded Heracleia Pontica/Eregli and it's named after Heracles (a Dorian hero)
When the Greeks settled among natives they didn't enslave them as you say nor did they Hellenized them by force...it was a long proccess of natives adopting Greek culture and intergrating into the main Greek population (Christianity and Roman Empire helped a lot)

the colonization period in that regions is about 600 BC. So, do you mean that there was no settlement in the mentioned locations till that time? people had alphabeth, wheel, they invent agriculture, they moved to europe using that route thousands years before greeks arrived there.

i will give you 2 examples for instance. search for kashka people (BC 1500 in trabzon area), and mariadyn people (BC~1500, around heraklia region).

greek colonies selected especially populated regions since they had manpower problem. sinope and heraklia was the biggest natural ports in that period.

by the way, i understand that you should hate russia, ukraine, italy etc. for the same reason.

barbarian
24-07-11, 11:10
Have you read any of my posts? Because Ionian Greeks were expelled from Turkey (after 1922) and they all currently live in Greece, not much left in Turkey. That's why so little E-V13 is left there, ALL Greeks have gone.
And Maciamo insists that genetical Greeks who live in Greece, speak Greek and identify as Greeks should be classified under Turkey all though not even one of them lives there now. How much more absurd can one be?

you say even the anatolian turks do not have too much turkish blood; you claim that west anatolians Y dna is different than other parts of anatolia and closer to greece; greeks left the anatolia after 1922. which one is correct.

i believe symrna have too much greek blood. however, they feel like completely turkish and do not lik e greece because of heavy propoganda after 1922.
http://g.mynet.com/i/179/5213_0.jpg
*this photo from a meeting of a political party. and it is not against greece. in turkey the feelings against greece is not pure hate, lets say "dislike".

archaiocapilos
24-07-11, 13:02
you say even the anatolian turks do not have too much turkish blood; I'm not the one who claims Anatolian Turks don't have a lot of original Turkish blood, scientific papers do.

you claim that west anatolians Y dna is different than other parts of anatolia and closer to greece; greeks left the anatolia after 1922. which one is true.Can you read? Can you understand what you read?
I never claimed that Western Anatolian (Turk) Y-DNA is different than other parts of Anatolia. What I said is that Western Anatolian (Greek) Y-DNA should be closer to Greek Y-DNA than Eastern Anatolian (Greek) Y-DNA because of more native Anatolian origin of Pontic Greeks and Cappadocians (they are the Eastern Anatolian Greeks).
I also explained that Anatolian Greeks and Anatolian Turks are not identical because [Anatolian + GREEK = Anatolian Greek], while [Anatolian + TURK = Anatolian Turk]
You seem to suggest that [Blue + Sky = Blue Sky], is the same with [Blue + Sea = Blue Sea] because they are both blue...
QUOTE=barbarian;376575]i believe symrna have too much greek blood. however, they feel like completely turkish and do not lik e greece because of heavy propoganda after 1922.[/QUOTE]How many times do I have to explain the same things? Are you people not clever enough or t-r-o-l-l-s? Turks that currently live in Izmir/Smyrne haven't got any relation with the study about Smyrnian Greeks of Roy King.

archaiocapilos
24-07-11, 13:20
when they first came , some 'wise quys' called them Turks espeacially the SEbasteia ones, cause there it was forbiden to speak Greek, it was an insult to them, cause they were proud that kept Greek ID for 400 years,
Allthough there were Turkish speaking Orthodox people in Sebasteia and Western Pontus who identified as Greeks, my fathers family (and all people in their village) who trace their origins there spoke Pontic Greek dialect (offcourse they could speak Turkish too) while the people from next village in Sebasteia who settled in Greece spoke only Turkish... Any way I consider them full Greeks.

Elias2
24-07-11, 14:35
How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?

Untill the crime has come to justice, why do you ask such a question? Why do you think the armenians will not stop untill Turkey apologizes for their genocide, but your attititue is "oh we know you guys were almost killled off on en-messe during WW1, your entire people almost wiped out, but that was a long time ago get over it!". I expect more from you then a sweep it under the rug attitude.

And to answer your question on how do you know I don't have turkish (muslim) ancestory, I will answer this in two parts. One, "turkish" isn't an enthinicty, its the term used for muslims in anatolia, these muslims come from very diffent ethnic backgrounds. The original turkic otomans were indeed turkic people, but DNA has revealed that their impact on the population in anatolia is very minimal, and the people living in Turkey are on a whole native to the land.

And secondly, islamic law during the ottoman empire meant it was illegal to turn from muslim to orthodox christian, but not vis-versa. So if my fathers side was still christian 600 years after the original turks came to anatolia, there was a good chance, chance meaning not 100% certainty, that they were always christian, meaning no one married or intermingled with a muslims (meaning turk). Of course you can not count out rape.

For this reason, and their determination to keep their christian identity, and thus greek identity after 600 years, is why I take it as an insult if all of a sudden I would be labelled as a turk, not because I think of them as lesser people, but because of what my ancestors went through for 600 years.


@ Maciamo

If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.

archaiocapilos
24-07-11, 15:00
If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.
Nope, the Ionian region is not different than other Turkish regions (at least not that much different)...It is the Ionian GREEKS who USED TO LIVE in the Ionian region who are different than Turks...

barbarian
24-07-11, 18:21
Nope, the Ionian region is not different than other Turkish regions (at least not that much different)...It is the Ionian GREEKS who USED TO LIVE in the Ionian region who are different than Turks...

please cool down. may be we, the turks(?) or whatever we are, are not good in science as you mentioned before.

just to clarify: are you saying ionian greeks left the country after 1922? so the greek blood is minimal in west anatolia now?

DejaVu
24-07-11, 18:37
THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeks dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.
Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.

barbarian
24-07-11, 18:38
And secondly, islamic law during the ottoman empire meant it was illegal to turn from muslim to orthodox christian, but not vis-versa. So if my fathers side was still christian 600 years after the original turks came to anatolia, there was a good chance, chance meaning not 100% certainty, that they were always christian, meaning no one married or intermingled with a muslims (meaning turk).

@ Maciamo

If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.
dont you think these two parts contradictary with each other.

if there is no mix in 600 years why there will be a difference in the genetic background.

sparkey
24-07-11, 20:47
Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...

Do you know of anywhere other than Crete that has more than trace I2*? It would not be a very useful column to have I2* be 0% everywhere except Crete. And we're still just estimating how much I2 in Crete is I2* and how much is I2a, right?

Maciamo
24-07-11, 20:57
Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...

Simply because I2* is quite rare (not enough data to have its own column) and it occurs mostly in regions where I2a2 is more common.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 21:03
Other mistakes of Maciamo. With his method Greek R1b=15.8 which would become 16 not 15.5... little incosistances that reveal the bias towards Greeks.

Why is that a bias ? Is R1b a superior or more desirable haplogroup than the others in your eyes ? Why do you wish to have more R1b (even 0.5% more) in your country ? Get a life ! The tables are very rough approximations based on very sparse data (1/10000 of the population at most). Anyhow, if you want to know, I have 196 R1b samples for Greece out of 1261 samples. That's exactly 15.5432%, so 15.5%. If you count the average by region, you get 15.8%, but evening out the two figures we get 15.65% (15.5%+15.8%/2), which is still rounded up to 15.5%.

iapetoc
24-07-11, 21:31
THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeks dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.
Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.



Wow
ok modern Greeks are not ancient Greeks

THEN HOW WE CALL A SERBIAN THAT SPEAKS BULGARIAN, HAS BULGARIAN CULTURE AND HIS DREAM IS TO BE GREEK?

OR HOW WE SAY A GREEK THAT FOLLOW's THE BOG's CHURCH, SPEAKS SLAVIC (change language) and damage Makedonia at WW2 for shake of communism?

hmmm surely not Makedonian, maybe Bugarian?

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 01:05
please cool down. may be we, the turks(?) or whatever we are, are not good in science as you mentioned before.

just to clarify: are you saying ionian greeks left the country after 1922? so the greek blood is minimal in west anatolia now?
Again I'm not claiming anything, it's a historical fact. Have you ever heard of the Greek-Turkish population ex-change of 1922?
Any way in Ionia region there should be some Greek blood, either from Ionian Greeks or from some of the Balkan Turks who settled there after the Greeks left (most of them Cretan Turks).

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 01:17
Why is that a bias ? Is R1b a superior or more desirable haplogroup than the others in your eyes ? Why do you wish to have more R1b (even 0.5% more) in your country ? Get a life !
In fact it is YOU who think that R1b is a superior haplogroup (Kings and nobles of the Indo-Europeans) and E1b1b is a haplogroup that leads to lazyness and corruption. I don't give a shit if we have 5% or 95% of R1b, I just wanted your numbers to be closer to the TRUTH.
Your whole bias is revealed because you are naming R1b, I and R1a ''European'' and continiously try to lower Greek R1b and increase E1b1b and J2 so Greeks would look more Middle Eastern. If by new studies Greeks are proven to belong 50% to E1b1b and 50% to J, I would be the first to correct my results and admit it.

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 01:41
THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeksHow do you know that? You would have to know exactly who the ancient Greeks were to compare them with modern Greeks to prove your statement. But you don't even know who your ancestors were (Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Macedonian Greeks, Turks, Serbs?) so knowing who ancient or modern Greeks are is imposible for you.

dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.WHO is comparing a population of mixxed inhabitants and making them PURE ancient people. You Skopians are even less good with
Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.[/QUOTE]

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 01:54
DejaVu you have to start reading what the others write in order to reply with at least some credibility. I never claimed that Greeks are pure (NO modern nation is pure) I have made it perfectly clear that for me it is culture that defines ethnicity.
BTW you are really stupid if you think that Modern Greeks are everything else (Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, SUB-SAHARANS [0% Sub-Saharan influence in Greece] except Greeks. Where do you think ancient Greeks have gone, to Northern Europe?

Carlitos
25-07-11, 02:10
What do they have of individual them R?, please, the world is on the verge of bursting through the fault of them. Who has said to them that it is necessary to go so rapidly?, we are going to jump all for the airs to this step. They should learn as the Greeks and the ancient Phoenicians were doing the things, now R have put a rocket in the bottom to the world and the wick is already lit.

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 02:33
I'm not against any haplogroup or people Carlitos, I don't dislike R1b's or E1b1b's or C's or whatever. Haplogroups can only reveal human migration patterns (allthough the exact time that this migrations happened is not perfecty clear) not human behavor or personality.

Carlitos
25-07-11, 02:35
I'm not against any haplogroup or people Carlitos, I don't dislike R1b's or E1b1b's or C's or whatever. Haplogroups can only reveal human migration patterns (allthough the exact time that this migrations happened is not perfecty clear) not human behavor or personality.

It is true, but some of them R want that it is not like that, then they have to take of their own medicine.

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 02:51
Yes, you are right...if we behaved like them we should name R1b's and I1's the haplogroups that lead to racism, superiority complex, depression and serial killers...

Carlitos
25-07-11, 03:05
Yes, you are right...if we behaved like them we should name R1b's and I1's the haplogroups that lead to racism, superiority complex, depression and serial killers...


exact, like we say in Spain, where they give them they take them.
Donde las dan las toman.

barbarian
25-07-11, 07:47
Have you read any of my posts? Because Ionian Greeks were expelled from Turkey (after 1922) and they all currently live in Greece, not much left in Turkey. That's why so little E-V13 is left there, ALL Greeks have gone.
And Maciamo insists that genetical Greeks who live in Greece, speak Greek and identify as Greeks should be classified under Turkey all though not even one of them lives there now. How much more absurd can one be?

just to fix. greeks was not expelled. it was a population exchange agreement between Atatürk (turkey) and Venizelos (greece).

archaiocapilos
25-07-11, 08:14
just to fix. greeks was not expelled. it was a population exchange agreement between Atatürk (turkey) and Venizelos (greece).You are right but I use expelled for both Greeks and Turks because it wasn't something they chose to do (leave their homes) but were forced to do it...

Maciamo
25-07-11, 09:47
No because it would be actually true...but my ancestors were also Greeks (at least part Greeks) and being classified under Turkey is an insult (Turkey as a name wasn't even in use back then, Greeks only knew of Turks=[Sultan-Muslims-Jennisaries-Enemies] and they used ancient names for their homeland like Ionia, Pontus, Kappadokia or their cities - Konstantinoupole, Smyrne, Trapezounta, Amissos, Kaisareia etc.)


It's time to learn to forget and forgive. Greece has been independent from the Ottoman Empire for nearly 180 years. The population exchange between Greece and Turkey happened 90 years ago. Any abuse that might have been committed by Turks in past centuries has nothing to do with modern Turks. If most Europeans don't hold a grudge against Germany for WWI and WWII anymore, how can you still be so xenophobic based on acts that happened hundreds of years ago ?

You seem to forget that conquering armies and people in power have always abused people throughout history, no matter where. Why is it that the Chinese can forget/forgive that their emperors killed millions of its citizens to build the Great Wall, and that Mao killed over 20 millions in living memory due to its bad policies and forced relocalisations ? People in Germany, France and the Low Countries fought bitterly with each others, often at the local level, during the Protestant Reformation. Families were torn, people massacred. Thousands of Spaniards were tortured or executed by the Spanish Inquisition sponsored by their own rulers. Don't believe one moment that Greeks have suffered more than everyone else, or that Turks were worse than other rulers. I am sure that Russian peasants were worse off under the Tsarist rule at any time in history.

Besides, as LeBrok mentioned, the actual Turks who invaded the old Byzatine Empire and became the new ruling class was an ethnic minority and their descendants, as Y-DNA showed, are still a minority among the people of Anatolia. You associate too readily names with people. Turk has two clearly distinct meanings : 1) person of Central Asian descent related to the Mongols, who became the ruling class of the Ottoman Empire ; 2) citizens of the modern state of Turkey, mostly of Anatolian descent.

Why is it that you hold this kind of weird hereditary grudge against a whole nation of 70 million people for acts committed by a small minority in a distant past, when the rest of the world is moving on ? This is plain and simple xenophobia, if not racism.

Maciamo
25-07-11, 09:49
You are right but I use expelled for both Greeks and Turks because it wasn't something they chose to do (leave their homes) but were forced to do it...

The population exchange of 1923 between Greece and Turkey was a political decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Concerning_the_Exchange_of_Greek_and_Tu rkish_Populations_%281923%29) made by the elected representatives of two democratic nations. How is it that I am explaining the functioning of democracy to a Greek ? If you have a problem with that complain to your government. Ordinary Turks have nothing to do with that.

iapetoc
25-07-11, 13:34
just to fix. greeks was not expelled. it was a population exchange agreement between Atatürk (turkey) and Venizelos (greece).

except the polis 1953-54
I know cause my father study dentist at Istambul Univesrity, and play ball for Galata serai football club

and the cyprus case of 1974

And macciamo cyprus is not 90 years before its 36 years before 1 generation time,

Elias2
25-07-11, 15:33
dont you think these two parts contradictary with each other.

if there is no mix in 600 years why there will be a difference in the genetic background.

Sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say... different between who? Ionians greeks and turks? or Ionians greeks and other greeks?

Elias2
25-07-11, 15:55
Why is it that you hold this kind of weird hereditary grudge against a whole nation of 70 million people for acts committed by a small minority in a distant past, when the rest of the world is moving on ? This is plain and simple xenophobia, if not racism.

Except the greek genocide was 100 years ago not 700. The progrom of constantinople happened in the 50's supported by the british, the cyprus issue, the threats of war if greece ever impliments its 12 km water boarder that it has the right to do, or the turkish war planes that fly over greek islands almost daily. Maciamo please you really think this dislike is because of what happened 700 years ago? do you see greeks hating people from venice because of the 4th crusade? no! So droped this snotty attitude of calling others xenpphobic and racist and do some research on why bad ralations exist and come down from your high horse.

Here is an incident and comments that the turkish president said while going to the occupide norhern region of Cyprus;

http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/07/tayyip-erdogan-in-the-occupied-areas-for-turkish-invasion-anniversary-celebrations/

He also said that if Cyprus assumes the E.U. presidency in 2012 he wil cut all ties with the E.U. This is just a bluff, but this showcases the kind of child this man is, and how the AKP party is taking Turkey down a scary path.

kostop
25-07-11, 16:14
It's time to learn to forget and forgive. Greece has been independent from the Ottoman Empire for nearly 180 years. The population exchange between Greece and Turkey happened 90 years ago. Any abuse that might have been committed by Turks in past centuries has nothing to do with modern Turks. If most Europeans don't hold a grudge against Germany for WWI and WWII anymore, how can you still be so xenophobic based on acts that happened hundreds of years ago ?

You seem to forget that conquering armies and people in power have always abused people throughout history, no matter where. Why is it that the Chinese can forget/forgive that their emperors killed millions of its citizens to build the Great Wall, and that Mao killed over 20 millions in living memory due to its bad policies and forced relocalisations ? People in Germany, France and the Low Countries fought bitterly with each others, often at the local level, during the Protestant Reformation. Families were torn, people massacred. Thousands of Spaniards were tortured or executed by the Spanish Inquisition sponsored by their own rulers. Don't believe one moment that Greeks have suffered more than everyone else, or that Turks were worse than other rulers. I am sure that Russian peasants were worse off under the Tsarist rule at any time in history.

Besides, as LeBrok mentioned, the actual Turks who invaded the old Byzatine Empire and became the new ruling class was an ethnic minority and their descendants, as Y-DNA showed, are still a minority among the people of Anatolia. You associate too readily names with people. Turk has two clearly distinct meanings : 1) person of Central Asian descent related to the Mongols, who became the ruling class of the Ottoman Empire ; 2) citizens of the modern state of Turkey, mostly of Anatolian descent.

Why is it that you hold this kind of weird hereditary grudge against a whole nation of 70 million people for acts committed by a small minority in a distant past, when the rest of the world is moving on ? This is plain and simple xenophobia, if not racism.

As a Greek, I fully agree with your point of view. I have numerous friends in Turkey, they are great people and cannot be blamed for whatever happened before they were born. However, it is important to understand that it is not always easy to "bury the hatchet" when your old "enemy" still violates your FIR on a daily basis and publicly rejects your lawful internationally recognised borders even to this date.
When reviewing the situation from the comfort of W.Europe /N.America surrounded by "friendly" nations, it is easy to get carried away and become a little patronising, treating other's sensitivities in a dismissive way. It can be quite different when you live in the "hotzone" and you see your neighbour talking about ownership of the place your family has lived in for countless generations or about "ancient Turkish philosophers"...
I am sure you have read in the international press that only a few months ago a scandal broke out in Turkey when it was revealed that their army had a plan to destabilise the country and overthrow the Government, a plan that include the invasion of a number of Greek (hence EU!) islands. Operation 'Sledgehammer" was the code name, look it up.
I am all for calm and reconciliation but it takes good spirit from both sides, and the current status does not help.

Now, back to the subject:

So far I have tested positive for R1b (R-M269), awaiting my deep clade test results from FTDNA. My paternal origin is from a place at the Arcadia - Laconia border in the Peloponisos region. An interesting finding was the rather unusual value DYS393=11. If anyone has any information on the frequency of this particular marker in R1b individuals from Greece to send me, I would appreciate it. Thx.

Best,
E.

DejaVu
25-07-11, 17:24
Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

DejaVu
25-07-11, 17:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...ece_and_Turkey
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey and the Muslim citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

The criteria for the population exchange was not excusively confined to ethnicity or mother language, but on religion as well. That is why the Karamanlides (Greek: Καραμανλήδες; Turkish: Karamanlılar), or simply Karamanlis, who were a Turkish-speaking (while they employed the Greek alphabet to write it) Greek Orthodox people of unclear origin and were deported from their native regions of Karaman and Cappadocia in Central Anatolia to Greece as well. On the other hand, Cretan Muslims who were part of the exchange were re-settled mostly on the Aegean coast of Turkey, in areas formerly inhabited by Christian Greeks. Populations of Greek descent can still be found in the Pontos, remnants of the former Greek population that converted to Islam in order to escape the persecution and later deportation. Though these two groups are of ethnic Greek descent, they speak Turkish as a mother language and are very cautious to identify themselves as Greeks, due to the hostility of the Turkish state and neighbours towards anything Greek.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire. The total population (sum of all the millets) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206.




And here is your Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.

And the Greeks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto.
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment.
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens and All Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek: Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
Count Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδ ίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek: Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian: Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment. He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek: Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian: Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment, remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.



The first constitution of Greece 1827.
The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.
??? —> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
1) —> 6. Greeks are:
2) —> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
3) —> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) —> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!
This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are.
Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?
You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from?
Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity.


November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.
"the last-arriving Greek boys staring broadley at the last-departing Moslem boys, speech between them being impossible, since the Greeks spoke only Turkish and the Turkish spoke only Greek."

DejaVu
25-07-11, 17:39
As you all can see there is no Greeks only adopted identity by other people who became Modern Greeks. What the modern Greeks did when exchanged the people with Turkey? Same people with other faith that was exchanged.

Conclusion: Modern Greeks are not Ancient Greeks.

sparkey
25-07-11, 17:47
DejaVu,

We've already been talking about how Greek the Ionians are based on their Y-DNA, have you been following? Basically, it seems that their concentrations are more contiguous with Southern Greeks than they are with Turks. Notice the levels of J1 (too low for Turks) and E1b (too high for Turks) in particular. The missing piece of the puzzle to be completely certain that they are very Greek as opposed to having significant Anatolian input are the relative concentrations of their R1b subclades. It's looking to me like they do have an Anatolian input, but not so significant to be able to say that they aren't principally Greek by background.

And what's the deal with citing language? That's not what we're talking about here, and it doesn't prove much. Of course Greek is Indo-European, and of course they've adopted some words from Turkish (and probably vice-versa). Greeks and Turks are right next to each other, after all.

DejaVu
25-07-11, 17:57
DejaVu,

We've already been talking about how Greek the Ionians are based on their Y-DNA, have you been following? Basically, it seems that their concentrations are more contiguous with Southern Greeks than they are with Turks. Notice the levels of J1 (too low for Turks) and E1b (too high for Turks) in particular. The missing piece of the puzzle to be completely certain that they are very Greek as opposed to having significant Anatolian input are the relative concentrations of their R1b subclades. It's looking to me like they do have an Anatolian input, but not so significant to be able to say that they aren't principally Greek by background.

And what's the deal with citing language? That's not what we're talking about here, and it doesn't prove much. Of course Greek is Indo-European, and of course they've adopted some words from Turkish (and probably vice-versa). Greeks and Turks are right next to each other, after all.

The guessing game is over. Where is the DNA found of Ionians? Can you link to the site where it have been found? If not dont even bother writing anything about it. HG J1 is from Arabs that settled or raped the inhabitants in Greece. The Ottoman Empire was not only Turkish, it also included others like Arabs and many more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

Maciamo
25-07-11, 18:10
Except the greek genocide was 100 years ago not 700. The progrom of constantinople happened in the 50's

Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?


the cyprus issue

Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.



the threats of war if greece ever impliments its 12 km water boarder that it has the right to do, or the turkish war planes that fly over greek islands almost daily.

Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).

iapetoc
25-07-11, 18:37
Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?



Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.




Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).

it is not 15 people,
15 people is the 'official'

about 250 000 expelt from Polis,
my fathers say about using small knifes and attack at the but, they never attack him, for he was famous due to football,
but all his friends had wounds at their buts,
besides how you are sure that greeks bombed Kemal house,
the area is considered relic and about 5-8 houses around there are from 1900 and do not re[lace them,
what about if it was a Turkish provoke?
or even a bigger one,
remember that after 1-2 years we have the strange of the Greek king bitten by monkey, but his bodyguard shot,
and the poison of sofocles Venizelos,
so surely if it was not Turkish provoke it was a Big force action

iapetoc
25-07-11, 18:54
DEjavu

so if Greeks speak with words like Dobro meso telece maiko tatko yentan and change name to -ic or -ov then they will be Greeks?

you are funny,

if your grand father change language to slavic, and followed dusan or Cimeon that does mean that All Makedonians do the same,

sparkey
25-07-11, 19:11
The guessing game is over. Where is the DNA found of Ionians? Can you link to the site where it have been found? If not dont even bother writing anything about it. HG J1 is from Arabs that settled or raped the inhabitants in Greece. The Ottoman Empire was not only Turkish, it also included others like Arabs and many more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

The main source is King, et al, see (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin&p=376223&viewfull=1#post376223)archaiocapilos (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin&p=376223&viewfull=1#post376223), he has been pretty good in compiling these. To be clear, King, et al doesn't exactly provide us with Ionian-specific Y-DNA with subclades in a way that would make us entirely clear about them.

I doubt J1 in Turkey is entirely from Arabs, but the spread of J1 is a good point against what I was saying. The E1b is still a sticking point though, and I still say we need R1b subclades to know more.

iapetoc
25-07-11, 19:45
The main source is King, et al, see (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin&p=376223&viewfull=1#post376223)archaiocapilos (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin&p=376223&viewfull=1#post376223), he has been pretty good in compiling these. To be clear, King, et al doesn't exactly provide us with Ionian-specific Y-DNA with subclades in a way that would make us entirely clear about them.

I doubt J1 in Turkey is entirely from Arabs, but the spread of J1 is a good point against what I was saying. The E1b is still a sticking point though, and I still say we need R1b subclades to know more.


there is enough J1 in cucas that reach >60 in some areas and is not Semitic

Elias2
25-07-11, 20:42
Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?

The death toll of the greek genocide was between 250,000 to 350,000 people, not 15.

The bombing of Attaturks house was done by a turk with the goal to incite violence against the greeks in con/polios and drive them out. It was all planned;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

At the same time of this violence against the greeks in con/polis, the turkish minority in thrace wasn't harmed. The two populations avoided the population exchange between the two countries after WW1 as said by the treaty of lousianne.




Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.

Cyrpus isn't greece but has greeks in it. Things have only been quiet because you don't read cypriot news. Cyprus has been at the end of continual threats of war from turkey due to maritime boundaries and natural gas resources. Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus as a seperate country has have 40 thousand troops in the northern occupied parts.



Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Allow me to give another example on why greeks don't look at turks very kindly. The patriach Bartholomew, who is a turkish citizen, is the "pope" of not just greeks but every orthodox person. He is forced to have 24 hours protection and his conplex in Constantinopolis has high fences with bared wire because he receives constant death threat and actual assassination attempts from turkish fanatics. This tradition of the patriarch has been around since christianity started yet turks don't respect him or his position and what he stands for.


Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).

Go ahead and ban me if you think I'm being childish because I don't want to be classified as a turk. I am not a turk, my parents were not turks, nor my grandparents. They came from a classical greek region that doesn't exist anymore due to war and ethnic "purging" of christians in asia minor during ww1.

Elias2
25-07-11, 20:46
As you all can see there is no Greeks only adopted identity by other people who became Modern Greeks. What the modern Greeks did when exchanged the people with Turkey? Same people with other faith that was exchanged.

Conclusion: Modern Greeks are not Ancient Greeks.


"The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:


Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) (called Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks))
Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
Jews: ca. 75,000
Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

There, I highlighted for you the real macedonians of macedonia in 1911.

iapetoc
25-07-11, 21:06
Cyprus case is ancient that goes to the times of Myth,

Arcado-Cypriots who dwell the Greece are older than History, besides Greek that devastate to cyprus is a well known Historical,

Both population belong to wider meaning Hellenick nation, although each has its own line route.
there are many areas where Greeks as a wider meaning exist,

It is not a lie to say that some areas have recon Greek id with another one,

for example italy has plenty Greeks, but they are recognised as local, they live in a democratic country, and all are Italian citizens, they follow the line route of Italy,
these people are considered in wider Greek nation as also In Italian but only in Italian state,
Italy is not declining the origin, so everything is near ok
These people lived and live in Italy so their Genes belong to Italian peninsula, by land model,
and the their state officially recons an ancient Greek population so it is ok,
so the model of land origin gives correct data,
but the Ionian Greeks moved devastate, and belong to Greece,
so the model of land origin might be correct giving the area, but a second model with added the genes that devastate gives better result in search for relatives, and a map of genes,

DejaVu
25-07-11, 21:30
"The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:


Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) (called Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks))
Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
Jews: ca. 75,000
Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

There, I highlighted for you the real macedonians of macedonia in 1911.

Time to refresh your sub-saharan memory

AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.



Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

Serbs
-
-
-

Bulgarians
-
-
-

Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

Turks and others
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.


Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

iapetoc
25-07-11, 21:33
yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

2 threads are for that case, so plz

no need to repeat again,

he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia

Maciamo
25-07-11, 21:33
The death toll of the greek genocide was between 250,000 to 350,000 people, not 15.

What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?


The bombing of Attaturks house was done by a turk with the goal to incite violence against the greeks in con/polios and drive them out. It was all planned;

Ok, I missed that part.


Cyrpus isn't greece but has greeks in it.

So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diaspora) (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.



Allow me to give another example on why greeks don't look at turks very kindly. The patriach Bartholomew, who is a turkish citizen, is the "pope" of not just greeks but every orthodox person. He is forced to have 24 hours protection and his conplex in Constantinopolis has high fences with bared wire because he receives constant death threat and actual assassination attempts from turkish fanatics. This tradition of the patriarch has been around since christianity started yet turks don't respect him or his position and what he stands for.

You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.


Go ahead and ban me if you think I'm being childish because I don't want to be classified as a turk. I am not a turk, my parents were not turks, nor my grandparents. They came from a classical greek region that doesn't exist anymore due to war and ethnic "purging" of christians in asia minor during ww1.

I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?

iapetoc
25-07-11, 21:43
macciamo,

the bond of Greeks with cyprus in before History,

I repeat the arcado-cypriots, the Cadmeians etc
and in Mycenae times the return for copper,

Both areas are considered in the wide meaning Greeks,
wider menaning is the same that you classify Franks as Germanic os others,

the Greeks is Family of nations, like the ones you call germanic Nations, and only the population of Greeks,
in fact it is difficult to give a name, so Greeks use the word wide, ευρεια ενοια
if we use use the word Hellenes, for the dwells of Greece, the the word Hellanic should included pop from italy cyprus ucraine etc
similar Germany and Germanic Nations,
austria is another state but we consider them Germanic Nation,
same is with Greeks,
according the Greek statistics the wide Nation is >30 000 000 while the greek from Greece is about 20 000 000

DejaVu
25-07-11, 21:53
yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

2 threads are for that case, so plz

no need to repeat again,

he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia

80-90% Macedonians lived in the Region of Macedonia before occupation and partition and that was before any Greeks (brainwashed people and adopted new identity) existed. If you sub-saharans want to continue, do so, then its time to refresh your denying facts with reposts.

Elias2
25-07-11, 22:00
What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

"According to various sources the Greek death toll in the Pontus region of Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000. Estimates for the death toll of Anatolian Greeks as a whole are significantly higher.
According to the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples, between 1916 and 1923, up to 350,000 Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people) Pontians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus) were reportedly killed in massacres, persecution and death marches.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-UNdoc-35) Merrill D. Peterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill_D._Peterson) cites the death toll of 360,000 for the Greeks of Pontus.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Peterson-36) According to George K. Valavanis "The loss of human life among the Pontian Greeks, since the Great War (World War I) until March 1924, can be estimated at 353,000, as a result of murders, hangings, and from punishment, disease, and other hardships."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Valavanis-37)
Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that "loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370."[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-38) Edward Hale Bierstadt states that "According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation.".[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-Bierstadt-39) At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Curzon) is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died."[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide#cite_note-40)"



Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.




So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diaspora) (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.

Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.





You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.

Doesn't matter, I'm an athiest too, but the the majority of greeks who are not, he holds a significant religious and historical value, and for me, it's the latter.




I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?

I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.

I started this "rant" because you said you can't understand why there is tension between these two countries 700 years after the first conflict. I tried to explain to you how it is not about what happened 700 years ago but quite recently and still continuous, and gave examples. I hope I was somewhat informative.

DejaVu
25-07-11, 22:02
What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

Sources? Modern Greeks dont need sources they rely on the fairytales. Maybe resurrection occured of Hercules and told the greeks about the information?

Elias2
25-07-11, 22:07
Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000



I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

"The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (http://mk.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE% D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D 0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8) (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters), Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krste_Misirkov). In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

"While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?

DejaVu
25-07-11, 22:13
I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

"The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (http://mk.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE% D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D 0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8) (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Macedonian_Matters), Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krste_Misirkov). In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

"While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?

And what haplogroups are slavic or Bulgarian from that population? You want more reposts sub-saharan?

DejaVu
25-07-11, 22:18
Krste Misirkov - The self-determination of the Macedonians, 1925!

The self-determination of the Macedonians
My article Macedonian Nationalism, which appeared in Mir on 12 March this year, aroused the ire of the paper “Svobodna rech”, which described me as “a man who still does not even know his own nationality”, a “simple-minded thinker who is capable of writing nonsense, of sinking even lower”, and who is “well-known for having once served in the Serbian propaganda service” and for lending his support to the theories of the Belgrade professor Cvjic concerning the existence of a separate Macedonian nationality”. As a result of these slanders against me in “Svobodna rech” many of my own townsfolk turned in fury upon me, and there were even some people who thoughtlessly claimed that they knew that in my student days I had attended assemblies of both the Bulgarian and the Serbian students and that this was why I had been driven out of the Bulgarian assemblies.
Similar senseless accusations were made in “Svobodna rech” and, as was only to be expected, these false rumors spread around Karlovo. This, however, did not greatly disturb me, as would have been clear to anyone who had read my article in “Mir” and who knew anything about my past… I knew full well that I would be attacked for my Macedonian Nationalism and that my article could certainly not be published in “Ilinden”. Nevertheless, although I was far from sure that it would be printed in “Mir”, I wrote out the article and sent it to this journal. And two days after it had appeared, “Svobodna rech” made me out to be a man who does not know his own nationality.
I was fully aware that I will be attacked for my “Macedonian nationalism”, that this article has no chance to be published in “Ilinden”, and I was not even sure that they will print it in “Mir”. I still wrote the article and sent it to the newspaper “Mir”. On the second day after its printing “Svobodna rech” named me a man that does not know his ethnicity.
Unfortunately “Svobodna rech” cannot make me give up my “lowly reasoning”. I still find that Macedonia today is butchered, that Greeks took their best parts, and have chased away the Macedonian population and replaced them with Asiatic new-comers that today are piled up next to the Serbian and Bulgarian border, the same as once the Byzantine Emperors were establishing next to the Bulgarian border military settlements of the Asiatic colonists: Armenians and Paulikians. I also find that if Serbs and Bulgarians do not find peace, and Macedonians are not included in voluntary cooperation with both Bulgarians and Serbs for safeguarding against the Greek wave that slowly, but surely moves from south toward north, all of us: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians will drown in the non-Slavic see that surrounds us from all sides. I think that only in agreement and cooperation between Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians is the salvation for all of us. Serbs and Bulgarians were fighting, Greeks and Romanians were profiting: they lost Macedonia, Trace and Dobrudza.
The most important condition for a cooperation between Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians, however, is the freedom of self-determination of Macedonians. And that is why, regarding this last issue, I emphasized the principle of the Macedonian patriotism and nationalism, as a fully neutral and satisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike; but for now it is more correct to say that it is equally unsatisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
Since it is primarily us Macedonians that are suffering from the Serb-Bulgarian conflict, it is our duty to search for means and ways of resolving that conflict. That is forcing us “to know” up to the current day our nationality and to tell both Serbs and Bulgarians: forget about your big-Serb and big-Bulgarian ideas, give up enforcing your nationalism and patriotism on us, since it basically is putting your interests up front instead of ours. Let us have our own understanding for our relations toward you and your conflict about us and our fatherland, as well as for the means that will bring us to a general South Slav benefit. Let us have our own Macedonian national feelings and to create Macedonian culture, as we did that during the ages when our fatherland was not part of the same state with yours.
As Macedonians we will be more useful for all: for Macedonia, for Bulgaria and for Serbia and in general for the whole South Slav community, than as Bulgarians and Serbs.
As a Bulgarian I would have said long time ago: What Macedonia! It is good for me here too. I don’t need to think for what is already lost. But as Macedonian, in Bulgaria I feel as in a foreign land, although between brothers, I’m not at home, in my fatherland. My fatherland is there, where I have been born and where I should leave my bones, where my son should go at least, if I am not allowed to go myself.
The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves been assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian stand point of view.
Uncompromising and unlimited love toward Macedonia, the constant thinking and working for the interests of Macedonia and the full conservativism in the manifestations of the Macedonian national spirit: the language, the national poetry, mentality and customs – those are the main characteristics of the Macedonian nationalism, demonstrated through “lowly reasonings of a man that still does not know his nationality”.
But we are not egoists. We don’t think only about ourselves. We are ready to make a good service to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but only if that service is voluntary and not forced.
How we can serve Serbs: we will all die, and we will not let the Greek foot to cross the current border of the Serb and Bulgarian Macedonia. But we will do that as Macedonians, and not as Serbs. We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.
That is the Macedonian national feeling, which is the historic call of every Macedonian that can be fulfilled only as a free and equal citizen of Yugoslavia, allowed to think and feel and talk and act as Macedonian.

K. Misirkov: The self-determination of Macedonians, “Mir”, 7427, 25. III 1925, 1.

Here is the real evidence who are Bulgarians and who are Macedonians. If you have problem with it sub-saharan seek help.

Maciamo
25-07-11, 22:33
The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?

There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.


Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.

We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).


Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.

A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.


I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.

All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.

iapetoc
25-07-11, 23:24
Elias leave the retard,

he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

just leave him boil in his hate,


Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,

when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

now back to your mud
if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,

Elias2
25-07-11, 23:42
That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?

So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.


There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.

So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?

Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.

Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.



We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).

I brought them both up because it was you who said greeks should forget what happened 700 years ago when we don't even care about that anymore, it's about more recent events, and they are both recent events. You just choose to ignore one because it doesn't fit with your personal definition of genocide, one that goes against the international definition of genocide. And you also don't take into account the importance the greeks place in places like constantinople, and the turkish efforts to erase all history of it pre-1453.




A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.

That's nice, they are still greeks, and have been for a very long time.




All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.

And ionian greeks come from Ionia, not turkey. Ionian greeks never lived in a land called "turkey", which is why you should label it as anatolia. This is your website so you can do whatever you want with it.

Elias2
26-07-11, 00:27
Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

5040

They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.

Elias2
26-07-11, 00:35
Elias leave the retard,

he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

just leave him boil in his hate,


Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,

when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

now back to your mud
if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,

I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.

iapetoc
26-07-11, 01:27
I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.


I might agree some Slavic populations lived besides makedonians, they might have that name but not with the bullshit they claim,
a slavo-makedonia as name is correct and sends each stupid back to where belong,
besides Slavic-Makedonia is a name accepted by all, exept Fyromians,

Maciamo
26-07-11, 08:33
Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

5040

They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.

Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.

Maciamo
26-07-11, 09:01
So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.

I don't care what you think is the definition of genocide. Logic dictates that if killing lots of civilians in Turkey is a genocide, then killing lots of civilians in Russia or Italy or France is a genocide too. But you will not find a single reference to genocide in Russia or Italy during WWI, even though 3 million Russian civilians and 600,000 Italian civilians died. Why ? I think the answer is simply that both Armenians and Greeks like to call the events a genocide to get back at Turkey. They intentionally liken themselves to the Jews to draw international attention and to make other people feel more sorry for them than for WWI victims in other countries. I think it is selfish, childish and manipulative. Big massacres have happened all the time throughout history and yet there are only a handful of officially recognised genocides. Interestingly the Greeks and Armenians only started to use the term 'genocide' after WWII, not right after WWI.

For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.

The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible massacres too, that killed over 200,000 people in just a few minutes. But nobody calls them genocide, even in Japan.

Different words have different meanings or nuances. A genocide is a kind of massacre, but not all massacres are genocides. The use of the word 'genocide' only became widespread after the Jewish Holocaust. Another common use is the killing of some plant or animal species until extinction. We could say that the gorillas or the rhinoceroses of Africa, or the tigers in Asia have undergone a quasi-genocide from human beings. Greeks and Armenians haven't. As sad and tragic as the death of 300,000 people is, they barely represent 1% of all the people with dominant Greek ancestry in the world (taking South Italians into account). It really cannot be likened to the scale of the Jewish genocide, in which two-thirds of European Jews perished, i.e. roughly 50% of the global Jewish population. I hope you understand the difference of amplitude.

I am also completely opposed to the use of the term 'genocide' for what happened in Bosnia in 1992-5. Only 8,000 people died, a fraction of the global annual deaths directly caused by the tobacco industry, and about 1/1000 of the scale of the Jewish genocide. Unfortunately it has become increasingly fashionable to label any massacre as genocide by unscrupulous sensationalist media and politicians. But that's hardly a reference to follow.


So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?
...
Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.

If Turkey ever attacks Greece, it will jeopardise its chances of ever being admitted to the EU, and will suffer EU retaliations. Whatever you think, the Turks aren't crazy. They know that it is not in their best interest to act on their provocations. Nevertheless they won't make progress in their accession talks until they settle matters with the Greeks and Kurds. I am neither pro-Greek nor pro-Turk, nor am I anti-Greek or anti-Turk. If you think that I am pro-Turk, then you should know that I am strongly in favour of the Kurdish independence. And if that makes me look pro-Kurdish, I actually never want to see them in the EU (contrarily to the Turks). Actually I believe that Turkey must let Kurdistan go if it wants to join the EU. Cyprus is really too complicated. It's an impasse like Jerusalem or Brussels.



Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.

It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?

As for Greece's current financial troubles, it is almost only due to the twisting of figures and artificial boosting of the economy to join the Eurozone. It is Goldman Sachs that helped Greece mask its true debt (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html) back in 2002 (orther sources : The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sachs-the-greek-connection-1899527.html) and NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all)).

kostop
26-07-11, 11:19
Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.

"vetoed Turkey's EU membership"???
In case you haven't heard, Greece has been a strong supporter of Turkey's EU membership for the last 20 years.

iapetoc
26-07-11, 12:06
Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.


Macciamo what are you talking about?

GREECE IS NOT VETOING TURKEY,
GREECE IS ASKING FOR INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO BE AMONG 2 COUNTRIES

TURKEY HAS 2 FOR GREECE and 1 for Cyprus
Turkey attacked Greek Lands of Imia Kardak at 1990s

and still is not vetoing,
ARE WE NUTS?
how you make an alliance when he has 2 casus Beli on you?
do you know that Greek fisherman are in terror of Turkish naval,
do you know how many warm days happened in Samothrake,
when Turkish warships enter the 12 miles zone and hunt Greek fishermans
are we nuts?

besides when do you see that Greece vote Veto for Turkey?

IN FACT BEFORE FEW DAYS THE EUROPEAN Committee FOR HANDLING CRISIS ASK TURKEY TO RECOGNISE 12 MILES ZONE OF GREEK COASTS

are we nuts,
I hear it first time by you that greek vote Veto
in fact it was 1 time austria and 1 time france and finland who veto
Greece ask
1 open the Chalke theological school
2 recon autonomy of the patriarch the fanari block as in vatican
3 recon the 12 miles zone of international sea rights
4 stop the military airflights above aegean all year except november february and march for both sides so to avoid warm days and turists travell with no fear all summer,
5 stop the military naval practise from months april to octomber so yachts travell free
6 All differences must be handle under international laws

19/7/2011
Ergogan words

WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH A COUNTRY WE DON'T RECOGNISE
said Erdogan to cyprus
are we Nuts they don't recogn Cyprus a member of EU and they want to enter Eu


20/07/2011
'We will not speak for 6 months with the EU as long as President is Cyprus,
we consider it a big shame to sit at same table with a country we don't recognize,
(cyprus a pirate or a terrorist state? a country member of EU? is not recognized?)
speech at occupied cyprus lands

how can this be done when a Cyprus Merchant ship if pass 12 miles may be sunk by Turkish Naval forces, what of europe will be?

is the Eu you Dream?
to have 3 countries with no International laws among them
how they enter EU when they say that every ship with cyprus flag is a pirate ship and will be sunk if reach the coasts of turkey

and besides all These Cyprus did not ask Veto
but ask International laws to be executed,
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT MEANS I DO NOT RECON THE CYPRUS DEMOCRACY
IN CASE OF VOTE IN A EU COUNCIL WHAT THEY SAY?
THAT CYPRUS VOTE DOES NOT COUNT?

the case is as they told you
the illegal is not Greece or Cyprus
Both did not put Veto,
the ask International laws and lift of Casus Beli to both

It is another story the I don't like Greeks and another to say incorrect informations that someone heard in a cafe, or in a tavern,

Remember Bartholomaios is the Last Patriarcha Oikoumenica
cause he is from the last class that finished chalke patriarchical school
after him if chalke do not open the next patrircha oikoymenica will be as order wants it

it is like having a pope that was not followed the order to become a pope

although I am not cristian and I still find it silly the case of popes and patriarches
majority of people thinks different,


but Greece vote Veto first time I hear it,

on the other hand I know that Austrian Veto lifted after Greek pressure for supporting Turkey to join EU
this are bullshit propagandas for inner consumption to turkey to keep on the hate,

about the Greek economical crisis the Goldmans Sachs case, that is drop that made glass overwhelmed, and you very well mention about it,
in fact I believe that Eu should hang the ones behind,
there are many more reasons, and the solutions that Eu and IMF gave are not the best,
they sunk deeper Greek economy for 2 years to a selected default, just to save euro, instead of save greece,
but when time comes who will send to USA the IMF, it is almost at the same class with Portugal and Ireland, at >85% analogy of Greek depth,
the game is that some money voltures want to gain by changing the balance of dollar and EU,
if you watch market then check gold and swiss currency to understand,

the point is that All european countries knew about it from 2004 but did not say a word why?


And offcourse Makedonia case
hm well think that someone today calls that Belgians are in Alps and Belgians are Belgians but Irish or whatever, how will you act?

the term Makedonia as Ethnicity and History and Blood has nothing to with Skopje-Fyrom etc,
the romas as they did in Illyricum they also did in Greece split Greece to 2 parts Achaia and Makedonia, and added in Makedonia Paeonia,
that is a geographical term, not an ethnicity term,
besides it is not The Makedonia that asks land from Fyrom, but the Fyrom ask Lands from Greece,
It is not a Name, it is an ID, except if you believe that ancient Makedonians were Slavic people, which is at least ......

Elias2
26-07-11, 17:16
For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.

That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group), racial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_humans%29), religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination), or national (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality) group",[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#cite_note-0) though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#cite_note-What_is_Genocide-1)"

Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead

Both groups where not participating in the conflicts at the time, the ottomans just wanted them exterminated because they were afraid of more countries breaking away very soon because they were going to lose ww1, just like how they are afraid of kurdistan breaking away today, which I fully support.




It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?

Greece has problems with two neighbours, FYROM and Turkey. FYROM solution is easy, they just don't want to compromise, Turkey is another story, they think they are a superpower. Both situations E.U. has agreed greece is in the right, and supports greece in both issues. Balkans is not like western europe if you havn't noticed. America has supported greece in the name issue as well, a 360 degree change from recognizing them when they first seperated form yugoslavia, now hilary clinton on her visit to athens says they want to see a mutually acceptable name, somethign FYROM dislikes because they actually beleive they are ancient macedons.

Oh and to correct you, that region of FYROM was never in the kingdom of macedon proper, it was called Paeonia, so no it's not historical macedonia, let alone filled with ancient macedons. It was conqured by macedon, but so was the entire middle east, so afghanistan was the same right to called themselves Macedonia as Skopje does. But just saying this ignores the 2000 year history of that region to the present.
Skopia recently just constructed a multi-million dollar statue of alexander, which caused them to reseive backlash from Brussels. And no they would not have chosen the name northern greece beacuse they are not greeks, they are slavs, so it would not had made sence, just like how calling themselves ancient macedonians doesn't make sence.

And another thing, greece never vetoed Turkish memebrship to EU, so try again at your reasons why they want the maritime and air boarders like that. I'll give you a hint, imperialism.

sparkey
26-07-11, 17:45
That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group), racial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_humans%29), religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination), or national (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality) group",[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#cite_note-0) though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#cite_note-What_is_Genocide-1)"

Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead

And don't forget:
Assyrians - racial group, Christians - religion, about 500,000 dead

Those are the three committed by the Ottomans during World War I as recognized by the IAGS (http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/Resolution_on_genocides_committed_by_the_Ottoman_E mpire.pdf), which is generally quite well-respected. Certainly, the above definition and the understanding adopted by the IAGS are more in-line with what we think of as genocide. Maciamo's is more restrictive than the common usage of the term, but may highlight a particular type of genocide (one motivated by the hope of total eradication rather than simple eradication from a particular area--the only major difference in practice being that sometimes the second is combined with deportation).

Antigone
26-07-11, 17:52
What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name.

Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.:petrified:

Mzungu mchagga
26-07-11, 19:35
Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.:petrified:

Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!

iapetoc
26-07-11, 20:36
Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!

you may a right, and thanks for try to calm down, the case has to do with propagandas and war attempts, and claim lands,

ww2 was not the last in Europe,

Otto Rehakles
27-07-11, 05:17
I have been watching these forums the last two days,I don't know much about Y-DNA but for what I'm reading with some easy "googles" is not something to be taken 100% for granted.I would like to learn more about it thought,even that I'm not a geneticist and I may not understand much.

Maciamo are you a scientist beyond the admin of this cafeteria called eupedia forums?
I see much arrogance on your posts it makes me wonder,do you really have a degree on what you are talking about?

Now,I'll give you some reasons on why Greeks don't trust Turkey now and if you want the EU and the USA(I won't disagree that Greece today is a country that produces almost nothing in which a lot of people entered a mismanaged public sector).Turkey has been sending Afghanis and Pakistanis illegal immigrant constantly to Greece and EU does nothing about it,NATO needs Turkey to control the middle-near East so the EU will follow,these people stay in poor Greece forever,very few of these immigrants reach Germany with the so called immigrant problem,when I was in Germany the only immigrants I saw were some Turks pretending to be Ice-cube(the rapper) and some Polish kids with skate shoes,in general people that would survive in their own countries but I guess Germany doesn't take second-class immigrants and they still manage to get a high crime rate lol,I would guess the same for Belgium.The immigrants here live in abandoned basements,piss on the roads and give you the killer look that destroys your mood before work,no they don't see you like the tanned(?) brother but as a Christian political friend of the guy that broke in their houses and killed their families.I won't be surprised if the next bombings following Oslo will be in the tired center of Athens,myself I'm not daring to visit it.Moreover,Turks are making propaganda on these immigrants in the name of Islam(the ones that got rid to Greece lulz) to cause trouble in Greece,Turks want Greece to fail in order to use the Aegean sea for trading,they invading and fishing in Greek waters everyday but again USA and EU do nothing because they need Turkey.I suppose you live in a butterfly world,eating Belgian chocolate,watching the news and trying to find the halpogroupish way to define the bad and the good guy.


If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so longWhat are you talking about?

Are you making propaganda yourself?Why?Are you working for some [email protected] genetics company for which Greeks isn't the target group?

But I don't think so,in my opinion you are just one of those "not so smart guys" who are bored to look at the official sources so you will reproduce everything propagandish you've heard or you'll make it by yourself.

So let's act as strict Europe AS A WHOLE,delete your forums after being exposed making propaganda-giving false information,give the right example as a Belgian to these deluded Greeks.

FORZA STRICTISCH EUROPA
DELETE THEM

Antigone
27-07-11, 07:43
Mmm, like I said, far too much sensitivity being displayed and personal attacks on other contributors don't help. Maciamo's view on Greece is not unusual, in fact his is a typical example of most who do not live in the region. It is not because he is ignorant nor arrogant it is because of the wrong perception given and the misinformation spread by the media. And we in Greece are not doing ourselves any favours if we are going to take everthing uttered about Greece as a personal insult, instead of explaining the situation calmly and clearly.

After listening to the stupidity of reports and the hype on Greece by the BBC, CNN and Der Spiegel over the last few months I've got to wonder if there is any situation in the world where we are given an accurate account in which we can trust.

Otto Rehakles
27-07-11, 08:51
Mmm, like I said, far too much sensitivity being displayed and personal attacks on other contributors don't help. Maciamo's view on Greece is not unusual, in fact his is a typical example of most who do not live in the region. It is not because he is ignorant nor arrogant it is because of the wrong perception given and the misinformation spread by the media. And we in Greece are not doing ourselves any favours if we are going to take everthing uttered about Greece as a personal insult, instead of explaining the situation calmly and clearly.

After listening to the stupidity of reports and the hype on Greece by the BBC, CNN and Der Spiegel over the last few months I've got to wonder if there is any situation in the world where we are given an accurate account in which we can trust.

Where is that much sensitivity exactly?
I'm explaining why Greeks don't trust Turkey and can't see EU as an elitist.

Personal insults?
I didn't say anything about his mother,I said how I see him as he used his terms to stereotype me as a Greek.Still I asked,is he a professor or something?Does he have a degree at least?

Maciamo is a guy that pretends to show people which populations descent from(their fathers) but he was caught giving and highlighting fake information,you don't have to live in Greece to know that it hasn't been vetoing.

And I am calm,only 2 lines at the end in CAPS,and by myself I believe that Greeks say some right things among a lot BS that they say but they're not taken seriously because they're shouting.Overall,these media you are talking about are right,they may emphasize things too much but Greece of today is a country that doesn't produce much,people have been living on government's back which has been living on the bankers' back and instead of trying their luck to the farms they're protesting like there is money left(not speaking about every protester).What more should we explain calmly and clearly?Greece is a [email protected] and Maciamo a propagandist,simple things.

zanipolo
27-07-11, 09:03
I don't think we need to even blame anyone, let alone Maciano,
Its a pity that the worst treaty in the history of Europe ( Congress of Vienna 1820 ) has taken Europe down this megalistic trait called Nationalism , where certain rules from this congress prevented people having their own nation or conferation of a nation.
Greece and Italy had to resort to foreign "royalties" to become Kings and so be recognised in Europe as either Greeks or Italians, The Greeks got a Bavarian, the Italians a frenchman from Savoy.

Its a pity that every country in europe does not follow the Swiss system of a conferation of states to make a nation. 500 plus years of peace is testimony to how good it works.

LeBrok
27-07-11, 09:31
Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!
Welcome to the club Mzungu, lol, it was my impressions too, that I'm joining a very egalitarian/international/open minded society on international wide web forums of Eupedia. The real life proved me wrong unfortunately.
Reading this thread makes me wonder if the Greek dislike for there neighbors come from education, or should we look for a hate gene in Balkan nations?

LeBrok
27-07-11, 10:30
I have been watching these forums the last two days,I don't know much about Y-DNA but for what I'm reading with some easy "googles" is not something to be taken 100% for granted.I would like to learn more about it thought,even that I'm not a geneticist and I may not understand much.

Maciamo are you a scientist beyond the admin of this cafeteria called Eupedia forums?
I see much arrogance on your posts it makes me wonder,do you really have a degree on what you are talking about?

Now,I'll give you some reasons on why Greeks don't trust Turkey now and if you want the EU and the USA(I won't disagree that Greece today is a country that produces almost nothing in which a lot of people entered a mismanaged public sector).Turkey has been sending Afghanis and Pakistanis illegal immigrant constantly to Greece and EU does nothing about it,NATO needs Turkey to control the middle-near East so the EU will follow,these people stay in poor Greece forever,very few of these immigrants reach Germany with the so called immigrant problem,when I was in Germany the only immigrants I saw were some Turks pretending to be Ice-cube(the rapper) and some Polish kids with skate shoes,in general people that would survive in their own countries but I guess Germany doesn't take second-class immigrants and they still manage to get a high crime rate lol,I would guess the same for Belgium.The immigrants here live in abandoned basements,piss on the roads and give you the killer look that destroys your mood before work,no they don't see you like the tanned(?) brother but as a Christian political friend of the guy that broke in their houses and killed their families.I won't be surprised if the next bombings following Oslo will be in the tired center of Athens,myself I'm not daring to visit it.Moreover,Turks are making propaganda on these immigrants in the name of Islam(the ones that got rid to Greece lulz) to cause trouble in Greece,Turks want Greece to fail in order to use the Aegean sea for trading,they invading and fishing in Greek waters everyday but again USA and EU do nothing because they need Turkey.I suppose you live in a butterfly world,eating Belgian chocolate,watching the news and trying to find the halpogroupish way to define the bad and the good guy.

What are you talking about?

Are you making propaganda yourself?Why?Are you working for some [email protected] genetics company for which Greeks isn't the target group?

But I don't think so,in my opinion you are just one of those "not so smart guys" who are bored to look at the official sources so you will reproduce everything propagandish you've heard or you'll make it by yourself.

So let's act as strict Europe AS A WHOLE,delete your forums after being exposed making propaganda-giving false information,give the right example as a Belgian to these deluded Greeks.

FORZA STRICTISCH EUROPA
DELETE THEM
Why is this that world "propaganda" comes mostly from Greek's lips? I haven't heard anyone from other nations using the word so much as Greeks. I hope, Greeks should stop for a moment and think twice of what is the cause of it. Surely there is one.
Is the whole world in conspiracy against Greece? Why is the Greece the center of attention of the world? Why are we in the center of universe again? Do they want our oil, or money (we don't have), or knowledge, new technologies, our fertile land?
I'm reading this thread and I've learned that Greeks are in great danger from all the sides, the turks, the macedonians, the albanians, bulgarins. The Greeks are surrendered from all sides and fighting hard to survive.
A very interesting fact is that all the outside-Greece voices like Maciamo, me, sparky, mzungu and others, on this forum, are accused of bias and propaganda. Why is it that Greeks feel that they have the license for the truth, and that they have objective point of view not polluted by propaganda? The world is wrong, we are right. Simple like that.

I'm sorry my friends, but this goes against all the logical conclusions.
If you want to know what propaganda is, I guess, ask you ministry of education.

PS. If it comes to Maciamo, he is a scientists and a very good one. None conventional, high spirited, energetic, enthusiastic, smart son of a gun. There are not many of this caliber.

iapetoc
27-07-11, 10:43
Welcome to the club Mzungu, lol, it was my impressions too, that I'm joining a very egalitarian/international/open minded society on international wide web forums of Eupedia. The real life proved me wrong unfortunately.
Reading this thread makes me wonder if the Greek dislike for there neighbors come from education, or should we look for a hate gene in Balkan nations?


Comes from Truth Lebrok,
The truth, only if you hear the last 2 speaches of Erdogan at 19 & 20 07 2011 and a previous of Pappandreou at a big sport event in Turkey, then you know the truth,

except if in your world CIA censored even the right to think and search
education has nothing to do with modern days, reality and truth,
under an old EU report >75% of media in greece are hiding or change facts,
but you know that meditterenean people have developed a sense to realize truth and what is behind,
if some choose to be sheep and only beee and live in the plains of paradise,
some other still use mind to see behind,
For your information Greek education has few lessons after 1875 mainly the WW1 and stops at ww2,
because we believe that modern history is still alive, so we wait to die at least 2 generations to enter education,
Greeks do not Hate, But Greeks live under fear and pressure of war every day and threats,
enough, the Henry Kissinger plans have ... us a lot. but we are still here and will be, while we .... at Kissinger's grave, or our children

I guess you DID NOT EVEN READ THE SPEECH OF ERDOGAN IN YOUR PARADISE,
BUT YOU CLAIM GREEK FOR HATE
AND NOT THE PRESIDENT OF TURKEY WHO THINK OF CYPRUS AS A PIRATE AND TERRORIST COUNTRY

Truth hurts but when you read the last 2 speaches of Erdogan

and when you live in an island and above you fly Turkish F16,
when after WW2 you see expell of Greeks from polis, Burn down Churches Temples, you See the Turkish army invade Cyprus, and you see the IMIA case at 2000
there is no need to hate, you know and you think,

you do not have to be educated to know that Turkey has casus beli with all its neighbors,
and you do not to watch tv to think,
HATE is a feeling that is feeded
IF YOU READ THE SPEECH OF ERDOGAN THEN YOU REALIZE WHAT CREATES HATE,

THE HATE GENES AND WRONG EDUCATION BACK TO YOUR PARADISE,

THE GREEK DISLIKE FOR THE NEIGHBORS COMES FROM THE ACTS OF THEIR NEIGHBORS

AND YET MANY GREEKS HAVE FRIENDS IN TURKEY AND FYROM,
CAUSE WE KNOW THAT POLITICS IS ANOTHER STORY THAN SIMPLE HUMANS,

In a previous post you said about feeling safety and the twin towers
just compare the 11/09 with 1953 1974 and rest,
and you were happy for the possible death of Osama
but you did hear the other Osama the terrorist of the another area,

but what can i expect from a person that believes that usage of Unicef for military reason is a blessed idea, with out even THINK the future,

Maybe for you it is a blessed thing to create big Fyromia to honor a papper, with 4 religions an6 nationalities,
maybe for you it is an honor the Cyprus line, while the Berlin wall was a shame
maybe for you it is legal the casus beli on Greece's autonomy laws about sea and international laws,
maybe you believe that Greece ask veto in EU entrance of turkey, (a big lie)

I believe it is not the Greek education but your information, censored and change by your Unicef's partner, following the old dogma of Kissinger,

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT CYPRUS IS AN ILLEGAL STATE?
OR A TERRORIST STATE?

Elias2
27-07-11, 15:03
I have to say its the perception of the media that probably gives the wrong idea. The BBC being british has a strong pro-turkish biased that I can see from time to time.

As an example, I forgot the exact date, but I read of another assassination attempt on the Patriach of Constantinople that was halted. I thought this was going to make some sort of international news. Imaging if there was an assassination attempt on the patriarch of Rome (the pope), the news would be everywhere. So I turn on to watch the BBC and insted there was a special on protestant churches in Turkey. So it makes me wonder about some things, what perception British news in particular wants to give to the outside world about Turkey, Russia, and other areas related and British geo-political goals. I don't really trust any singular news media at all anymore, I have to look at 5 to get the real story.

I think the greeks protesting this year realized this, which is why they didn't want the media filming them because they knew what kind of story they would write about them; lazy greeks protesting because they don't want to pay vs the reality of greeks don't want to pay for the greed of banks and corrupt politicians.

Jacker22
27-07-11, 15:47
As an example, I forgot the exact date, but I read of another assassination attempt on the Patriach of Constantinople that was halted. I thought this was going to make some sort of international news. Imaging if there was an assassination attempt on the patriarch of Rome (the pope), the news would be everywhere. So I turn on to watch the BBC and insted there was a special on protestant churches in Turkey. So it makes me wonder about some things, what perception British news in particular wants to give to the outside world about Turkey, Russia, and other areas related and British geo-political goals.

Stop thinking of a grand conspiracy or government propaganda. The BBC just reflects the national British psyche, with all its cultural bias and imperfections. Few Britons have heard of the Patriach of Constantinople at all. That name doesn't have the same potency as the Pope in Rome, because Greece and Turkey belonged to a slightly different civilization than western and northern Europe, that of the Orthodox Byzantine empire. I wouldn't say it's as remote as the Islamic world, but that is not something with which the man in the street is familiar. Everybody knows the Pope because the Church of England broke off from Rome, and every Briton knows the story of Henry VIII's divorce. So if the BBC didn't make much fuss about the Patriach of Constantinople it's because their audience doesn't give a damn.

Elias2
27-07-11, 16:02
Stop thinking of a grand conspiracy or government propaganda. The BBC just reflects the national British psyche, with all its cultural bias and imperfections. Few Britons have heard of the Patriach of Constantinople at all. That name doesn't have the same potency as the Pope in Rome, because Greece and Turkey belonged to a slightly different civilization than western and northern Europe, that of the Orthodox Byzantine empire. I wouldn't say it's as remote as the Islamic world, but that is not something with which the man in the street is familiar. Everybody knows the Pope because the Church of England broke off from Rome, and every Briton knows the story of Henry VIII's divorce. So if the BBC didn't make much fuss about the Patriach of Constantinople it's because their audience doesn't give a damn.

I hate to burst your bubble but the BBC gets broadcasts in more countries than just england. So the ignorance of the english is not a reason for their selective programs.

Jacker22
27-07-11, 16:06
I hate to burst your bubble but the BBC gets broadcasts in more countries than just england. So the ignorance of the english is not a reason for their selective programs.

Who makes the programmes ? Who funds the BBC ? The answer to both is British people. The BBC has turned into an global media organisation idolised in countries that do not have quality media of their own, like Africa, the Middle East, most of Asia and South America (just check the list of languages available (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/index.shtml)). But that's not because the BBC provides this translation service that it is in any way not primarily a fundamentally British organisation, with a British world view and British bias, like any other media. Its popularity owes to the fact that the British bias is more easily tolerated than most other national biases, be them American, French or Chinese.

kostop
27-07-11, 16:21
Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.


Impressive....

According to your logic, below is another case proving that the English people descend from Arabs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_words_of_Arabic_origin

So everyone, forget all these fairytales about Angles and Saxons, Normans, etc. The truth has finally been revealed by DejaVu and the academic community will remain eternally indebted.

By the way, since you mention "athlete", "aphorism", "octopus", "anatolia", "amphorae", "cement" and "aphorism" among the examples of "Turkish" words borrowed by the Greeks, would you care to explain how these words reached the vocabularies of almost every European language?

Elias2
27-07-11, 16:46
Who makes the programmes ? Who funds the BBC ? The answer to both is British people. The BBC has turned into an global media organisation idolised in countries that do not have quality media of their own, like Africa, the Middle East, most of Asia and South America (just check the list of languages available (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/languages/index.shtml)). But that's not because the BBC provides this translation service that it is in any way not primarily a fundamentally British organisation, with a British world view and British bias, like any other media. Its popularity owes to the fact that the British bias is more easily tolerated than most other national biases, be them American, French or Chinese.

I agree with everything you just said but with this highlighted point you just pretty much agreed with me about BBC being britished biased towards things of british geo-political interests, which turkey is one. So no its not some government consipiracy that BBC is pro-turkish as britian wants to see Turkey in the EU. So they will protray the country using programs that doesn't necesarily match the reality of that country, or be selective in programs the want to air about certain countries.

I don't want to just target turkey, the BBC does this alot. They like to highlight the lack of human rights alot in the middle east but only to specific countries, and not those friendly to britain, which I'm speaking of the ones in the arabic penisula (saudi arabia, UAE, ect.). They do the same for Serbia aswell as trying to portray it as the evil contry in the balkans when albanians and croats did just as much wrong doing in the yugoslav wars, so its all political, but very powerful.

So yes I agree with you but don't say I'm some conspiracy nutjob when I'm able to see biases in news media, from bbc, to cnn, to foxnews, to RT, to aljazeera, ect.

LeBrok
27-07-11, 16:50
Stop thinking of a grand conspiracy or government propaganda. The BBC just reflects the national British psyche, with all its cultural bias and imperfections. Few Britons have heard of the Patriach of Constantinople at all. That name doesn't have the same potency as the Pope in Rome, because Greece and Turkey belonged to a slightly different civilization than western and northern Europe, that of the Orthodox Byzantine empire. I wouldn't say it's as remote as the Islamic world, but that is not something with which the man in the street is familiar. Everybody knows the Pope because the Church of England broke off from Rome, and every Briton knows the story of Henry VIII's divorce. So if the BBC didn't make much fuss about the Patriach of Constantinople it's because their audience doesn't give a damn.

It's refreshing to hear another voice of reason. Welcome to Eupedia Jacker22.

Elias2
27-07-11, 17:34
It's refreshing to hear another voice of reason. Welcome to Eupedia Jacker22.

I've noticed that your definition of reason is one that goes along with your train of thinking, even if there is imperical evidence that proves other wise.

The example of the assassination attempt of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the lack of reporting on it from large news medias like the BBC was just an example of biases. I'll provide another example of a major event that happened recently that was not covered on BBC because it will harm the image the BBC wants to portray of specific countries, including turkey.

We all know that one of the major obsticals facing Turkey's E.U. integration is the Cyprus issue, so any comments from big players about their plans for the island should be pretty big news indeed, players like christophoras -president of Cyprus, and erdogan -president of turkey. So I was surprised again (not really) when this event occured and it reseived no attention at all from the BBC;

http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/07/tayyip-erdogan-in-the-occupied-areas-for-turkish-invasion-anniversary-celebrations/

which was followed by comments from british MP's;

http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/07/british-mep-andrew-duff-explains-how-erdogan-is-moving-backwards/

and now this is reaching UN level attention;

http://www.cyprusweekly.com.cy/main/92,1,283,0,21487-CYPRUS.aspx

I don't know what you people consider news worthly, but stories like this should get more than zero attention from large news medias like the BBC, stories that have to deal with the E.U., invasions, and UN attention should be broadcast.

But like I said earlier, the BBC bias towards its "special" countries is very obvious in its new reporting.

Antigone
27-07-11, 17:58
Where is that much sensitivity exactly?
I'm explaining why Greeks don't trust Turkey and can't see EU as an elitist.

Personal insults?
I didn't say anything about his mother,I said how I see him as he used his terms to stereotype me as a Greek.Still I asked,is he a professor or something?Does he have a degree at least?

Maciamo is a guy that pretends to show people which populations descent from(their fathers) but he was caught giving and highlighting fake information,you don't have to live in Greece to know that it hasn't been vetoing.

And I am calm,only 2 lines at the end in CAPS,and by myself I believe that Greeks say some right things among a lot BS that they say but they're not taken seriously because they're shouting.Overall,these media you are talking about are right,they may emphasize things too much but Greece of today is a country that doesn't produce much,people have been living on government's back which has been living on the bankers' back and instead of trying their luck to the farms they're protesting like there is money left(not speaking about every protester).What more should we explain calmly and clearly?Greece is a [email protected] and Maciamo a propagandist,simple things.

Telling someone his posts are arrogant, telling a person he is stupid or "not so smart" and calling them a propagandist are indeed personal attacks and, in English, come across as anything but calm. More like hysterical and nasty.

All well and good if you disagree with Maciamo's opinion, but leave out the insults and stick to debating the facts or no-one will take anything you say seriously. Read the threads on Spain and you'll see what I mean.

Maciamo
28-07-11, 09:48
Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

Greece chose to style itself as the Hellenic Republic in English (and other European languages beside Greek), but nobody uses that denomination. I have never heard it once in the media, not to mention by people in a conversation. Not even the French use it, and they contantly use expressions like the French Republic, the Italian Republic, the Russian Federation, and call the Japanese les Nippons. But then the official name of Bangkok is Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit, but nobody ever uses it either. :laughing:

Reinaert
28-07-11, 10:12
Well, international trade had an influence on how countries were named. I live in The Netherlands. (keep in mind that's plural)
But most of the world keeps using the name "Holland". And that while Holland is only a part of The Netherlands as a whole.
The French use the correct name. Les Pays Bas. The Low Countries, or The Lowlands if you like.

zanipolo
28-07-11, 11:27
Well, international trade had an influence on how countries were named. I live in The Netherlands. (keep in mind that's plural)
But most of the world keeps using the name "Holland". And that while Holland is only a part of The Netherlands as a whole.
The French use the correct name. Les Pays Bas. The Low Countries, or The Lowlands if you like.

maybe you should revert to your original name of Batavia.

In italy, they say Olanda which is Holland also.

Reinaert
28-07-11, 12:26
Hmm.. Batavia is named after a tribe ( Batavii) that seems to be gone up into thin air.
Well, they named a ship after it, what became a disaster.
Also the city of Batavia, what is now Djakarta in Indonesia.

Also Belgium is a name derived from the Belgae tribe as mentioned by the Romans.

Taxandria was the name of the southern part of The Netherlands .
The old name for my region Brabant.

Perhaps we should try a new name.

Waterland.

zanipolo
28-07-11, 12:52
Hmm.. Batavia is named after a tribe ( Batavii) that seems to be gone up into thin air.
Well, they named a ship after it, what became a disaster.
Also the city of Batavia, what is now Djakarta in Indonesia.

Also Belgium is a name derived from the Belgae tribe as mentioned by the Romans.

Taxandria was the name of the southern part of The Netherlands .
The old name for my region Brabant.

Perhaps we should try a new name.

Waterland.


maybe Zeeland ................of course Friesland would be out of the question:grin:

Maciamo
28-07-11, 13:57
Hmm.. Batavia is named after a tribe ( Batavii) that seems to be gone up into thin air.
Well, they named a ship after it, what became a disaster.
Also the city of Batavia, what is now Djakarta in Indonesia.

The Batavian Republic is an expression still in use for the Netherlands.


Taxandria was the name of the southern part of The Netherlands .
The old name for my region Brabant.

It is actually Toxandria.

Antigone
29-07-11, 08:24
Greece chose to style itself as the Hellenic Republic in English (and other European languages beside Greek), but nobody uses that denomination. I have never heard it once in the media, not to mention by people in a conversation. Not even the French use it, and they contantly use expressions like the French Republic, the Italian Republic, the Russian Federation, and call the Japanese les Nippons. But then the official name of Bangkok is Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit, but nobody ever uses it either. :laughing:

Regardless of what others may think it is still not the name that is on all official documentation, but I was really explaining why the Greeks call their country Ellatha.

It is interesting what people call themselves and others though. Everyone once used Bombay, well all except the locals that is, they always used Mumbai. And the Greeks still call some places by their ancient names, France is called Gaul or Gallia, England is Anglia and Switzerland is Helvetia

Maciamo
29-07-11, 09:49
It is interesting what people call themselves and others though. Everyone once used Bombay, well all except the locals that is, they always used Mumbai.

I am not sure about that. There wasn't any indigenous place name before the Portuguese founded the colony of Bombay ("Good Bay"). Mumbai is a deformation of that name by the locals rather than the other way round. However I am not sure when it happened. India became independent in 1947, but Indians continued using the name Bombay until 1995. I think that the name changed had more to do with a political will to get rid of the colonial past. Likewise, Madras was founded by the British as Fort St. George, and Madras was already an Indian name for the city that developed around the fort. The new name, Chennai, is a modern invention, loosely derived from a old nearby village named Chennapattanam.



And the Greeks still call some places by their ancient names, France is called Gaul or Gallia, England is Anglia and Switzerland is Helvetia

That's interesting indeed. The map of Europe from a Turkish perspective looks very different, especially the Balkans. Greece is Yunanistan, Albania is Arnavutluk, Montenegro is Karadağ (literal translation of "Black Mountain"), Serbia is Sırbistan, Bulgaria is Bulgaristan, and Croatia is Hırvatistan.

zanipolo
29-07-11, 10:02
I am not sure about that. There wasn't any indigenous place name before the Portuguese founded the colony of Bombay ("Good Bay"). Mumbai is a deformation of that name by the locals rather than the other way round. However I am not sure when it happened. India became independent in 1947, but Indians continued using the name Bombay until 1995. I think that the name changed had more to do with a political will to get rid of the colonial past. Likewise, Madras was founded by the British as Fort St. George, and Madras was already an Indian name for the city that developed around the fort. The new name, Chennai, is a modern invention, loosely derived from a old nearby village named Chennapattanam.



That's interesting indeed. The map of Europe from a Turkish perspective looks very different, especially the Balkans. Greece is Yunanistan, Albania is Arnavutluk, Montenegro is Karadağ (literal translation of "Black Mountain"), Serbia is Sırbistan, Bulgaria is Bulgaristan, and Croatia is Hırvatistan.

Montenegro comes from the Venetian word
monte = mountains
negro = black

Montenegro even has on its coat of arms the Venetian lion without wings due to its history
The country's name in most Western European languages reflects an adoption of the Italian-Venetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language) term monte negro (Italian would be monte nero), meaning "black mountain", which probably dates back to the era of Venetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) hegemony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony) over the area in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages).


In regards to the portuguese and bombay, IIRC they had Goa first, from 1510 until the 20th century

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 00:28
I would categorize Greek-speakers on Turkish soil as exactly that. Remember that many ethnic groups were citizens of the Byzantine Empire and to assume that because they speak Greek they must be Ionian is problematic. Poorly categorized samples are compromised.

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 01:01
With neighbors such as Austria, Germany, France and Italy I think Greece would be a very different place. Swiss confederacy on the doorstep of Turkey is not something one can do. When was the last time Switzerland's sovereignty was put into question. Probably 500yrs ago right! Greece deals with violations of its airspace and maritime borders everyday.

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 01:32
Getting back on topic, many Greek families living on Crete and Corfu share the same surname suggesting that they are related. What is the evidence for and against an endemic U152+ versus a Venetian or Roman era introduction?
Things to ponder:
1. U152+ has a relatively high frequency when taking Greece's history into account and the better established E and J subclades.
2. A frequency of more than 5% in Greece for a newly introduced subclade such as U152+ is very significant, in fact too significant to ascribe to mere population drift.
3. U152+ in Greece is not found in major population centres but in secluded rural settings on Crete and the Peloponnese.
4. The few Greeks I have manaced to find with U152+ have no matches in Italy or Switzerland?

The U152+ subclade is a unique phenomenon as it comes across many countries and can be labeled a relatively recent event. However, the 5% plus frequency in Greece suggests an introduction before 500BC placing the MCRA of U152+ subclade L2* into question as it would take time to establish these communities throughout the Greek island system, assuming that the frequencies are similar on the traditionally Dorian settlements of Milos and Corfu for example (only rural villages).

iapetoc
11-08-11, 02:20
what makes you so confident that U-152 is dorian?

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 13:58
I am not sure U152+ is Dorian, all I am suggesting is that its frequency seems too high to presume it arrived on the Venetian or Roman time-line. U152+ is located, according to the little data we presently have, in traditionally Dorian areas. In addition to this, these areas are rural, not along the cosmopolitan coastline where J2 predominate. Interestingly, U152+ appears to have an endemic feel. Not sure if it's 'Dorian' or 'Sea Peoples', but it sure doesn't look like Venetian, unless Venetian is composed of endemic Greek U152+.

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 14:12
I am not confident about using the term 'Dorian' to classify geographic regions with but use the term to differentiate between the 'Indo-European' R1b (possibly a little R1a) and the earlier arrivals such as J and E. There is a distinct militaristic character to the secluded 'Indo-European' rural element in Greece which appears to have very little Western European or even Celtic influence, yet remains oddly enough also estranged from the middle-eastern and asiatic elements of Greek culture. It suggests an early introduction, not something recent, and albeit found in some Easterly outlying regions has a Western cultural foundation.

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 14:29
A legitimate question would be: 'so why U152+' and not any of the other subclades or R1a or even a mixture of these elements?

Again, based on the very limited data available, and taking the couple of str-sequences I have managed to compare, there are no matches (not even one) with Italy and Switzerland. In fact, there are a few matches, all on 25markers, with Scotland (Edinburgh and surrounds). Another very unique characteristic of this U152+ is that it very often matches closely to L21 individuals in Wales. This suggests that these Greek U152+ haplotypes have an affinity with Scottish U152+ and Welsh L21 because they left central Europe for their respective destinations along the same period. The new Z-series of snps lower down from U152+ will begin shortly and I'm confident we will start to see snp similarities between Greek U152+ and Scottish U152+, and possibly also some Austro-Hungarian U152+.

iapetoc
12-08-11, 00:23
A legitimate question would be: 'so why U152+' and not any of the other subclades or R1a or even a mixture of these elements?

Again, based on the very limited data available, and taking the couple of str-sequences I have managed to compare, there are no matches (not even one) with Italy and Switzerland. In fact, there are a few matches, all on 25markers, with Scotland (Edinburgh and surrounds). Another very unique characteristic of this U152+ is that it very often matches closely to L21 individuals in Wales. This suggests that these Greek U152+ haplotypes have an affinity with Scottish U152+ and Welsh L21 because they left central Europe for their respective destinations along the same period. The new Z-series of snps lower down from U152+ will begin shortly and I'm confident we will start to see snp similarities between Greek U152+ and Scottish U152+, and possibly also some Austro-Hungarian U152+.


well there is a significant R1a in central Greece connected also with sSouth Greece Locri and epizephyreian locri,
same analogy with sub-R1a we find in Aryan,
Greek language is Graeco-aryan connected to PIE and has same grammar with Avestan in past and future,
also the linguistic connection gives enough sansqrit,
so a posiibility of a central R1a
on the other hand Greek language follows ending of words and unique IE words with P- Celtic the gauls,
there words that we find only in those 2 languages,
so the posibility of Greco-Brygian (before mycenean Greek) gives many result,

remember that north thessaly west makedonia and east epirus has the biggest R1a spot in balkans,
the ancient capital of dorians was Trikke (trikala) at locri we also have R1a as also in their colonies of Locri,
remember that Doris city was Locri,
a possible ethogenesis in area of thessaly epirus south makedonia and phthia (Hellanas river) from Driopes Myceneans and Pelasgian is possible, that created the ancient Greek, after 920 BC

Greek-Vrygian language is connected with 3 major IE,
first grammatically with Avestan and Persian
second as vocabulary with Sansqrit
third as sounds, ending words etc with Gaulish and P-celtic

after these is the connection with slavic germanic and Q-Celtic

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 01:22
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 01:49
What is the accepted foundation date of the Celtic identity, I know ancient Greek historians mention the Keltoi BC. As far as I can make out Greek culture appears to have been strong along the Dauphine/Provence region. Marseilles having been a Greek colony and a steady population 'trickle' or flow from Greek/Genovan regions (Chios/Caffa) to Liguria (Genova) and Livorno (Florentia).

With this in mind I took some common Greek surnames and searched their frequencies in modern-day Italy. I found three distinct regions where these names predominate. Interestingly, where a Greek name may have 2 or 3 variations in spelling, when one superimposes the maps the same three regions appear as if the rest of Italy didn't exist. Personally I expected Venice/Padua to show up but it never did.

1. Calabria
2. Pavia/Piacenza
3. Livorno/Latinum

iapetoc
12-08-11, 01:53
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.


not only tsakonian but Grico also, although is a dying dialect,
yes but Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20%
the dorian foot of peninsula, while is weak in the east and in Ionian colonies,

anyway all 4 primary R1b R1a G2a3 and J2a & b meet around thessaly
while I is summed in other areas in high ratios

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 13:36
iapetoc wrote, 'Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20% the dorian foot of peninsula'.

The frequencies for R1a in Southern Italy are 2.5% whereas Northern Greece has 18% R1a. The stronger likelihood for a 'Dorian' marker lies with the U152+ population as the Peloponnese, Crete and Calabria regions suggest. The date for U152 has gradually begun to shift to an earlier period, from a couple of years ago U152's mrca was estimated at 2500-3000ybp. Today consensus is shifting to between 4000-4500ybp.

iapetoc
12-08-11, 19:53
iapetoc wrote, 'Greek R1a is also strong in south Italy reaching the limits of Central Greece, >20% the dorian foot of peninsula'.

The frequencies for R1a in Southern Italy are 2.5% whereas Northern Greece has 18% R1a. The stronger likelihood for a 'Dorian' marker lies with the U152+ population as the Peloponnese, Crete and Calabria regions suggest. The date for U152 has gradually begun to shift to an earlier period, from a couple of years ago U152's mrca was estimated at 2500-3000ybp. Today consensus is shifting to between 4000-4500ybp.

calabria has 24% R1a in areas were Grico is spoken,
and in Upper makedonia thessaly and Dodona also is 21%
biggest in whole balkans after far north Croatia,

and the surprising is that R1a is not in areas where slavophones were, but in pure sarakatsan areas,

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 20:29
Where do you get your figures for Calabrian R1a?

iapetoc
12-08-11, 20:35
Where do you get your figures for Calabrian R1a?


Scozzari et Al

the center is old Greek city EPizephyreian Locris,

and most Grico Speakers share R1a

At Reggio, Bova Gallicio (-ano) Chorio
while also exist in Salento but not that High >10%

Remeber that Lokri is alternate name for Upper Makedonians
Argeiades and Lokroi
R1a fits very where Locri people are mentioned from Makedonia to south Italy, even Greek locris

a better search for R1a1* gives results, as the western Graeco-Aryan since same analogy we have in Norway, Greece and west Iran about 1/60 - 1/100 of R1a while in rest is 1/700 etc

so it even explains the Greaco-Aryan case,
But does not explain the Gaulish-Greek connections, which R1b explains better,

but following Mycenean tombs which move from Greece to Illyria to dalmatia to Slovenia (according time)
it is possible that Mycenans (If R1b) after sea people move to North Italy
or Hettits moved to North Italy from propontis but a part of them stay in Greece and mixed with Local,

the Gennesis of Greek around Thessaly is characteristic for both,

But Ionian Greeks share low R1a and Biger R1b

possible Aeolian R1a is accepted,

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 21:19
Can you give us the title and year of this Scozzari paper?

iapetoc
12-08-11, 21:22
Can you give us the title and year of this Scozzari paper?

I think is 2001 or 2002

canot remeber well but is old,

I think Cruciani is also in search,

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 21:54
I think you are mistaken, the figure 24% in Calabria, was it perhaps written as R1*(xR1a1) and not R1a?

zanipolo
12-08-11, 22:11
The only 'Dorian' dialect still in use is Tsakonian. Much has been written about it but that is off topic. Locri was Doric and so were many other regions however the R1a haplogroup is not well-defined and is of limited use to this discussion until more is known about its subclades and we can begin regional comparisons. What we do know is that R1a frequencies decrease in a Southward direction, this contrasts somewhat with U152+ frequencies which decrease in a Northerly direction suggesting a sea-based culture. Also, U152+ is evenly spread along West and East with a stronger presence in Eastern Crete where the Venetians and Romans has little to do.

Venetians "owned" crete for nearly 500 years, it was the only colony they used the venice system , that is 6 districts ( sestieri)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

with over 50000 veneti migrating to crete over time, i would say that u-152 in crete come from this.

- Crete has a relatively high frequency, especially given its distance from Italy/France. The best explanation is for the high frequency is that it was a possession of the maritime Republic of Venice for nearly five centuries. from this link
http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5%3Adeeper-look-myres-and-cruciani-studies&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=1

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 00:01
zanipolo wrote, 'Crete has a relatively high frequency of U152+ given its distance from Italy/France.'

Cretan 152+ matches closely to Scottish U152+. No resemblance with Italy or France. More importantly, Calabrian Greeks who are unrelated to your alleged 50 000 Venetian migrants also have this same U152+ found on Crete. Your 'sestieri' comment only proves that Australia's son is unhealthy.

iapetoc
13-08-11, 00:24
I think you are mistaken, the figure 24% in Calabria, was it perhaps written as R1*(xR1a1) and not R1a?

nope pure R1a
the R1a1* is later
simply it is difficult to define that this or that is primary or major,
Both are connected with ancient Greek History,
but R1b has also some connection with Venice times, but not that big,

zanipolo
13-08-11, 00:29
zanipolo wrote, 'Crete has a relatively high frequency of U152+ given its distance from Italy/France.'

Cretan 152+ matches closely to Scottish U152+. No resemblance with Italy or France. More importantly, Calabrian Greeks who are unrelated to your alleged 50 000 Venetian migrants also have this same U152+ found on Crete. Your 'sestieri' comment only proves that Australia's son is unhealthy.

Your have clearly not read my post , because if you did then you will realise that i did not write this , but was part of the link i presented. Clearly you have some form of nationaltic issues which prevent you from finding the truth.

iapetoc
13-08-11, 00:36
Venetians "owned" crete for nearly 500 years, it was the only colony they used the venice system , that is 6 districts ( sestieri)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

with over 50000 veneti migrating to crete over time, i would say that u-152 in crete come from this.

- Crete has a relatively high frequency, especially given its distance from Italy/France. The best explanation is for the high frequency is that it was a possession of the maritime Republic of Venice for nearly five centuries. from this link
http://www.u152.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5%3Adeeper-look-myres-and-cruciani-studies&catid=1%3Alatest-news&Itemid=1


Zanipolo I agree with you in one condition

that U-152 has an extra sum from enetocracy times,
a possible R1b that added in the already existed,
remember that Ionians Greeks from minor asia (not Ionic pelagos) have also significant R1b and where not in Enetocracy,

an extra R1b from venice times is possible enough to raise R1b in Crete (candia) and some other places
But Venician were mostly elit people, Merchants or land owner who either were semi cut from local society, either hire the lands in locals,
Venice had Libro d' oro so a possible big mix would not be accepted by Venice Don's
But indeed in some area where venice was we do found an additional R1b

on the other hand do not believe every greek that say he was from Venice,
some people in order to prove VIP create myths
I believe an about 2-4 % on areas added to R1b,

At enetocracy it was more easy for Greeks to move west than venician to come to greece as big Devastation,
Although from the time literature and some churches we do find small communities of elit in some places,

50 000 is big number that time,
when today crete has 350 000
50 000 that time is huge number,
By chania when I visited the Catholic were the most 4 000 in the biggest Venetian community before 1760 considering that Venitians were at ports and big castles and forcetas (small arsenal towers)
that number should not be bigger than 15-20 000
Besides many venician left greece after 1790 and Orlov's revolt,

Venice was a market for Greeks,
Venicians were an elit class mainly that certify that local production would be sold,
and that Greek navy and army will get paid,
if you read the case of Crocodilos Kladas you understand,

to understand the difference, Aromani still speak a latino-roman dialect from ancient times, while Venice areas do not,
if 50 000 moved to crete means that Chania would have 15-20 000 Venicians that time,
BIG NUMBER!!!

just think that crete that times should have about 150 000 pop
an extra 50 000 makes 25% of modern pop,
that means 25% should have Italian as mother language,
well not even 4-5 did at 1860

zanipolo
13-08-11, 01:00
Zanipolo I agree with you in one condition

that U-152 has an extra sum from enetocracy times,
a possible R1b that added in the already existed,
remember that Ionians Greeks from minor asia (not Ionic pelagos) have also significant R1b and where not in Enetocracy,

an extra R1b from venice times is possible enough to raise R1b in Crete (candia) and some other places
But Venician were mostly elit people, Merchants or land owner who either were semi cut from local society, either hire the lands in locals,
Venice had Libro d' oro so a possible big mix would not be accepted by Venice Don's
But indeed in some area where venice was we do found an additional R1b

on the other hand do not believe every greek that say he was from Venice,
some people in order to prove VIP create myths
I believe an about 2-4 % on areas added to R1b,

At enetocracy it was more easy for Greeks to move west than venician to come to greece as big Devastation,
Although from the time literature and some churches we do find small communities of elit in some places,

50 000 is big number that time,
when today crete has 350 000
50 000 that time is huge number,
By chania when I visited the Catholic were the most 4 000 in the biggest Venetian community before 1760 considering that Venitians were at ports and big castles and forcetas (small arsenal towers)
that number should not be bigger than 15-20 000
Besides many venician left greece after 1790 and Orlov's revolt,

Venice was a market for Greeks,
Venicians were an elit class mainly that certify that local production would be sold,
and that Greek navy and army will get paid,
if you read the case of Crocodilos Kladas you understand,

to understand the difference, Aromani still speak a latino-roman dialect from ancient times, while Venice areas do not,
if 50 000 moved to crete means that Chania would have 15-20 000 Venicians that time,
BIG NUMBER!!!

The article says france/italy, the france part could be the franks from the crusades. As the franks "owned" the morea ( pelopenesse ) and franks settled there and later when Venice owned areas of the morea, they migrated many people to crete for work. ( some say 8000 ) maybe you can check if the frankish u152 is similar. As for the veneti in crete, 80% returned at the time of the goritizia war ( uskok war ) ( 1614-1618) with Austria, because it was the first time in history that Venice deployed their militia from the mainland, since spain cut off the mercenary supply for Venice for that war, the saxons, brunswicks and lorraine troops, the veneti militia was used. ............BTW, 6000 dutch and 1000 english troops arrived to help venice to prevent an austrian victory.

So , I will agree with you as i do not know, I only presented the article from the u152.org site

iapetoc
13-08-11, 01:15
The article says france/italy, the france part could be the franks from the crusades. As the franks "owned" the morea ( pelopenesse ) and franks settled there and later when Venice owned areas of the morea, they migrated many people to crete for work. ( some say 8000 ) maybe you can check if the frankish u152 is similar. As for the veneti in crete, 80% returned at the time of the goritizia war ( uskok war ) ( 1614-1618) with Austria, because it was the first time in history that Venice deployed their militia from the mainland, since spain cut off the mercenary supply for Venice for that war, the saxons, brunswicks and lorraine troops, the veneti militia was used. ............BTW, 6000 dutch and 1000 english troops arrived to help venice to prevent an austrian victory.

So , I will agree with you as i do not know, I only presented the article from the u152.org site


The Venician connection with Greeks mostly was a small community of merchants and land owners who bought Greek products, and hire Greeks to secure ports and do their wars,
that is why I don't believe in big Devastation, except 2 major areas Corfu and Chania

Now about Franks and Katalans it is about same, only they brought armies that soon moved back or dissapear,
remember the case of Arvanites is cause a latin ruler hired 4 000 warriors and few 000 farmers with their families and gave them land in order to serve his army,
on the other hand the quite big army and legacy of Boniface and some others just vanish leaving behind a castle and 2-3 villages
so in my area where the castle is, we know and can estimate the % by the toponyms, family names, linguistic remnants etc,
and while in local area (municipal) is about 70% in territory area is about 2-3% (2500-3500/120-130 000)

Now considering that All these dwell near sea or infront, about 0,4-0,5 pop of Greece and not in inland mountain areas Yes I agree that 1% max 2% of Greek pop is from crusaders times
while considering the aromani is about 4-6% of pop
But when someone lives more than 2000 years in an area is n't he native

But have you thought how many greeks moved west from 1200 to 1600?

just visit nearby Trieste (Tergest) and read the history of City, and come to Greece and visit the 2 villages from Greeks of Tyrol, about 3500 return from Tyrol at 1860 and 1912
and I am not talking about the rest of Europe,
In Thessaloniki there is area new Helvetia from Greeks that returned from there after 1916 counting 5 000 that time,

zanipolo
13-08-11, 01:33
The Venician connection with Greeks mostly was a small community of merchants and land owners who bought Greek products, and hire Greeks to secure ports and do their wars,
that is why I don't believe in big Devastation, except 2 major areas Corfu and Chania

Now about Franks and Katalans it is about same, only they brought armies that soon moved back or dissapear,
remember the case of Arvanites is cause a latin ruler hired 4 000 warriors and few 000 farmers with their families and gave them land in order to serve his army,
on the other hand the quite big army and legacy of Boniface and some others just vanish leaving behind a castle and 2-3 villages
so in my area where the castle is, we know and can estimate the % by the toponyms, family names, linguistic remnants etc,
and while in local area (municipal) is about 70% in territory area is about 2-3% (2500-3500/120-130 000)

Now considering that All these dwell near sea or infront, about 0,4-0,5 pop of Greece and not in inland mountain areas Yes I agree that 1% max 2% of Greek pop is from crusaders times
while considering the aromani is about 4-6% of pop

Maybe you can find something in here
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN%20LORDSHIPS%20IN%20GREECE.htm#_Toc219779590

or
Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
Vlachs. from this link
http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

or
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
What is your theory on this marker in crete?

iapetoc
13-08-11, 01:53
Maybe you can find something in here
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/LATIN%20LORDSHIPS%20IN%20GREECE.htm#_Toc219779590

or
Irrespective of what the ultimate origin of R-U152 is, it provides us with a good
diagnostic marker for population movements out of the French-Italian area. In Italy for
example it is noted at 26.6% for the north and 10.5% in the south. It would be extremely
interesting to see its occurrence in Balkan Vlachs, as this would confirm/disprove the
Italian component in their origin. However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans,
suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-
century period of Venetian rule of the island. It also occurs in 4.1% of Greeks, where it
might come from any period since the Roman annexation of the Hellenistic states to the
Vlachs. from this link
http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

or
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

You could be correct because the Veneto area has only 40% R1b marker today ( maybe it was different in the past)
What is your theory on this marker in crete?

well do not believe all titles,
for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

now about crete it depends on spot areas,
Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
which I believe is correct
Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
from there you find the secret
the founder effect area is key to devastations,

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 10:58
nope pure R1a
the R1a1* is later
simply it is difficult to define that this or that is primary or major,
Both are connected with ancient Greek History,
but R1b has also some connection with Venice times, but not that big,

Old studies write R1*(xR1a1) which actually refers to R1b. Not R1a!

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 11:07
well do not believe all titles,
for example in Spain lives a Noble that still has the title of Byzantine emperror,
for example the case of Monferat (boniface) shows us that title give prestige so many want to create,

now about crete it depends on spot areas,
Krigging methods gives maps so to understand spots,

so the secure and correct is to search the spot, the village and its History, and then to make conclusions,
but I believe that R1b in some areas, including Crete is added at enetocracy times,
a 2-3 % of population with 40% R1b gives an extra 1-1.5% R1b
which I believe is correct
Besides I have to look at King for the R1b of Smyrna people, which have enough, and Crete had connection with Smyrna,

But I believe that a 1-2% of R1b is added after 1200 AD in crete

But where U-152+ has its founder effect?
from there you find the secret
the founder effect area is key to devastations,

You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 11:14
Venetians were not rural villagers, then there is the suspicious nature of the Greek Orthodox towards the Latin Church. The wealthy Greeks and Venetians intermarried but this population lived in town (chora), not in the rural peasant population. People do not mix with other cultures when they are illiterate, poor and live in isolation.

iapetoc
13-08-11, 13:12
Old studies write R1*(xR1a1) which actually refers to R1b. Not R1a!


nope it says R1a I am sure about that,

and i think it is mostly R1a1a

iapetoc
13-08-11, 13:17
You are correct about searching the spot where Cretan U152+ is predominantly found. On Crete it is where the Venetians did not live. These pockets in the Lasithi Plateau and Sfakia (Apokorona) Highlands were vehemently opposed to Venetian rule. You need to read about the revolts and study the difference between Cretan Highlanders and Cretan Lowlanders. It took thousands of years to bring R1a to around 5% in these villages, how is it possible that in 400yrs you will find between 5-7% U152+ in these very hard-to-reach parts of Crete and the Peloponnese?

I agree, but that low intermix which may allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice,

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 13:37
allied the Cretans at 1860 might be 2-4% of Crete
The Venetian Republic ended in 1797, not sure what alliance you are referring to here.
Anyhow, a 2-4% representation throughout an entire rural population cannot occur within the time-frame you are proposing.


meaning that a 1-2% of U-152 is added in the already existed R1b before Venice

Again, 1-2% increase in the entire rural population, your argument may have had merit if the 1-2% increase was only found in the towns where the Venetians had lived, but this is not the case.

Think of it in terms of a survey, if you want a representative sample you will need to survey people from rural and urban centers. Most Venetians if not all were concentrated around the burgo or castello. They did not frequent the interior rural settlements and definitely did not have intimate relations with the villagers.

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 14:23
nope it says R1a I am sure about that,

and i think it is mostly R1a1a

Could you post the full details of the paper, if it does say R1a of 24% in Calabria then this is very significant and needs to be discussed further. A link to the article would be great.

iapetoc
13-08-11, 14:36
Could you post the full details of the paper, if it does say R1a of 24% in Calabria then this is very significant and needs to be discussed further. A link to the article would be great.

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Scozzari2001.pdf

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 15:51
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Scozzari2001.pdf

HG1 = R1b
HG2 = I
HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.

iapetoc
13-08-11, 18:43
HG1 = R1b
HG2 = I
HG3 = R1a [known for a brief period as HG2]

The old system of classifying haplogroups confuses many people.

Scozzari et al. (2001) found 21.1% R1b (HG1) and 10.5% R1a (HG3) in Calabria.

You can confirm this by looking at the figures for Sardinia where HG2 (I) predominates with very high frequencies. This study found 10% R1a in Calabria which has never been duplicated, questioning the reliability of this study.


are you sure it is not the oposite?

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 12:47
are you sure it is not the oposite?

I am certain.

Arnoutis
21-05-12, 13:41
But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.


The problem is that the samples over-represent Crete (5%) of the population taking 20% of the samples (creating a 4x inflation)

And it underrepresented Central Greece-Epirus a bigger population center, yet only represented by 12.5% of the samples (creating a minimum 3x defect)

This will influence the the overall accuracy of the frequencies where the contrast is highest in both regions.

Highest contrast: E1b1b samples the highest at 31.5% in C. Greece & lowest in Crete E1b1b 8.8%, this alone moves E1b1b at least 5%, because it effected the frequencies of other regions that are much higher than 8.8%, especially that none of the sample had 45% peak samples, to reduce the 8.8% in Crete!

E1b1b (+5) ------------26%

Moderate contrast: R1b is the lowest in Central Greece at 10.2% & slightly above average in Crete at 17.1%, this sampling disparity should be represented by a 1.5% point adjustment
R1b (-1.5) ------------ 14%

J2, J1 & G2 also peak in Greece, but those have moderate effect
J2 (-2) --------------- 21%
J1 composite was 5% goes down to 3% (which is already there)
G2 (-0.5)------------ 6.5%

LT is 4.5% on the table, but all studies samples are under 4%, so it should be
LT (-1)----------------3.5%

Degredado
22-05-12, 04:31
Where do Greeks get all their R1a from? Was it the Dorians, Ionians, etc? Or more ancient IE migrations?

Dianatomia
24-11-12, 03:22
And would it be an insult to say that your ancestors were Anatolian? Turkey is just the name of a geographic area used for classification. If your ancestors came from modern Turkey/Anatolia, the Y-DNA must be classified under Turkey (which is not the same as "Turks", obviously. Turks are an ethnic minority of Anatolia originally from Central Asia) for the sake of consistency. When I make a category for France, I do not mean to imply that it is the Y-DNA of the Franks, which, like the Turks, were an ethnic group that invaded a region and gave their name to it. Not every region has a unique geographic name for it (like Anatolia), which is why I use modern country names. I also use other geographic divisions, like "North Greece" or "South Germany" or "Auvergne" or "Sicily". It doesn't mean that these are separate ethnic groups, just more specific regions.

Only the Jews have are listed under a non-geographic category because of their wide diaspora and long segregation from the mainstream population in the countries where they lived.


Maciamo, Greeks should be listed under a non-geographic category.

Calrlton Coon summarizes why:
The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present.

The races of Europe Chapter 12,s14

oriental
25-11-12, 00:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3EhfozajQ

Bombay was pronounced as Bumbai. The British left in 1959 and Indianization of city and street names began.

namld2098
25-11-12, 10:25
cảm ơn vì chia sẻ bổ ích.............................

Eldritch
26-11-12, 09:34
Where do Greeks get all their R1a from? Was it the Dorians, Ionians, etc? Or more ancient IE migrations?
Slavs it was.

MOESAN
26-11-12, 16:06
don' t believe all Y-R1A is slavic, it is South Asian (geographic) too
some rare SNPs are found only among Germans and Celts: maybe Greeks have two or more sources of R1a, come at different times - surely too Greeks have some slavic R1a -

Eldritch
26-11-12, 16:16
don' t believe all Y-R1A is slavic, it is South Asian (geographic) too
some rare SNPs are found only among Germans and Celts: maybe Greeks have two or more sources of R1a, come at different times - surely too Greeks have some slavic R1a -
Do we have subclades for Greeks tested?
I'm of the opinion too they don't have only Slavic R1a but also other clades.
What's your opinion about it?

zanipolo
26-11-12, 19:34
Do we have subclades for Greeks tested?
I'm of the opinion too they don't have only Slavic R1a but also other clades.
What's your opinion about it?

The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.

kamani
26-11-12, 21:40
The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.

I am a bit confused in the relation between southern slavs and thracians. Do you think serbs and bulgarians got their R1a from the thracians?

Eldritch
26-11-12, 21:51
The thracians where also in majority R1a and even the Pelagasians.

see/read about the 4 main thracian "super" tribes, the dacians, getae, moesian and Odyssian.

The thracians also dealt in trading women and male slaves with the hittites.
Can you post the source about Thracians about being R1a?
About Pelasgians we don't even know who they were so R1a is a bogus, plus weren't Pelasgians the oldest people in Balkans?
If that was the case R1a should have been unlikely to be carried.

kostop
30-07-15, 11:01
We might hear some interesting news during the next days, as an ancient DNA conference is taking place in Greece today. Findings of DNA analysis of 3 samples dating from 2500BC are expected to be revealed.