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Maciamo
22-07-11, 20:09
I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

In Belgium (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032), let's note that Wallonia has 7% of I2b, considerably more than the 4.5% in Flanders. It's strange since Flanders is supposed to be more Germanic, and the percentage of I1 doesn't vary much between the two regions (12% in Flanders and 11% in Wallonia).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


There are many theories concerning the presence of I2b in Russia, Ukraine and Moldova.

1) They are remnants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

2) I2b was part of the Indo-European haplogroups, and some pockets have survived around the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

3) The (Swedish) Vikings brought I2b to Russia, and the Ostrogoths to Moldova (Chernyakhov culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_Culture), which corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium).

Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26648-New-I1-map&p=376488#post376488) too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 20:33
I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


There is a hotspot among Anatolian Greeks of Ionia region (6/89 = 6.7%) but it seems that only Greeks have it and not Turks so your map seems accurate if you take into acount who lives in Ionia nowadays (allthough for some places in Greece there are not any data about this specific subclade like your hotspot around Aetolia/Epirus)

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 20:35
Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?

sparkey
22-07-11, 20:42
Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?

Seconded; although, if Maciamo makes this change, he will need to update a lot of his old stuff accordingly to avoid confusion between current I2b and old I2b, as well as current I2a (and subclades) and old I2a (and subclades).

Current I2b would not make for a very interesting map, it would be <1% everywhere. I think there are about a half-dozen known families that carry it, most from Italy except one from Germany and one from Scotland.

Maciamo
22-07-11, 20:55
Maciamo don't you use the new classification system for haplogroup I where I2b is named I2a2 and ex-I2a2 is named I2a1b?

No, I don't like the new nomenclature. It's confusing so I stick to the old one used everywhere on this site.

Mzungu mchagga
22-07-11, 21:03
Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.


Good work first of all!
Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?

sparkey
22-07-11, 21:12
No, I don't like the new nomenclature. It's confusing so I stick to the old one used everywhere on this site.

That's an odd attitude. The hierarchical nomenclature is intended to represent the full tree of known SNPs, which in I2 now includes L460 (I2a) and L415/L416/L417 (I2b). The I2b SNPs are certainly non-private, so what do you intend to call the subclade they represent? It's not really a matter of whether you like it or not, it's just the case that there's a new I2b.

I agree that you should be consistent on your site and that it would be confusing to have only one map of old I2b be "I2a2," but it will be just as confusing if you never make the change, while everyone else does.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 21:15
Seconded; although, if Maciamo makes this change, he will need to update a lot of his old stuff accordingly to avoid confusion between current I2b and old I2b, as well as current I2a (and subclades) and old I2a (and subclades).

Current I2b would not make for a very interesting map, it would be <1% everywhere. I think there are about a half-dozen known families that carry it, most from Italy except one from Germany and one from Scotland.
You make sense but I think that the nomenclature should be revized because it gives better knowledge of how haplogroups are connected into the tree...
For example the new nomenclature of I allows us to place ex-I2c and I2b better because ex-I2b is closer to ex-I2a then ex-I2c is to either of them.
Anyway I get confused too with all this changing of names and sometimes I use R1b1b2 instead of R1b1a2 so anyone with less knowledge of Y-DNA nomenclature would get really messed up...

sparkey
22-07-11, 21:18
You make sense but I think that the nomenclature should be revized because it gives better knowledge of how haplogroups are connected into the tree...
For example the new nomenclature of I allows us to place ex-I2c and I2b better because ex-I2b is closer to ex-I2a then ex-I2c is to either of them.
Anyway I get confused too with all this changing of names and sometimes I use R1b1b2 instead of R1b1a2 so anyone with less knowledge of Y-DNA nomenclature would get really messed up...

I agree, I'm already using the new nomenclature in everything for I2. I've pretty much given up with writing the hierarchical form of R1b subclades, though. But I2 is still easy, even with this change.

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 21:25
I agree, I'm already using the new nomenclature in everything for I2. I've pretty much given up with writing the hierarchical form of R1b subclades, though. But I2 is still easy, even with this change.
Yes R1b1a2 is so well studied that includes sub-clades with 10 or 11 charachters used for their name...it is propably because most geneticists come from West Europe or US so they are more interested in R1b and it's sub-clades

Maciamo
22-07-11, 21:30
That's an odd attitude. The hierarchical nomenclature is intended to represent the full tree of known SNPs, which in I2 now includes L460 (I2a) and L415/L416/L417 (I2b). The I2b SNPs are certainly non-private, so what do you intend to call the subclade they represent? It's not really a matter of whether you like it or not, it's just the case that there's a new I2b.

I agree that you should be consistent on your site and that it would be confusing to have only one map of old I2b be "I2a2," but it will be just as confusing if you never make the change, while everyone else does.

There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 21:38
There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?
I guess that using R1b-M269 for R1b1a2 or R1b-L23 for R1b1a2a or R1b-U152 for R1b1a2a1a1b3 or E-V13 for E1b1b1a2 is less confusing for everyone

Maciamo
22-07-11, 21:41
Good work first of all!
Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?

I have 3 maps of I2b, which all show the maximum of roughly 15% around the Harz mountains in Germany, but the data I compiled has an average of 7.5% for North Germany, 5% for East Germany and 6.5% for West Germany. Unfortunately I do not have accurate data by state.

Karlsson et al. 2006 gave 17% of I2b in Västerbotten province in northern Sweden, but no data for the adjacent provinces.

sparkey
22-07-11, 21:43
There will probably be another new nomenclature next year, so why not wait for it before changing everything ?

The current instability is in I2* and within current I2a2a. It's looking like there may be some rearranging downstream of I2a2a, and I2* is likely to become I2c. So, I think it's probably safe to start using "I2a2" for old I2b and "I2a1" for old I2a, at least, and probably also quite safe to use "I2a1a," "I2a1b," "I2a2a," and "I2a2b." Next year's tree is looking unlikely to change that on you. But it's true that hierarchical nomenclature changes so frequently that using it on anything that's meant to be permanent is asking for confusion... like, what happens if I2* unexpectedly shares an SNP with I2a rather than I2b? Then, current I2a2 would become I2a1b, and so forth...

zanipolo
22-07-11, 22:10
clearing up the terms visi and ostro goths for this, I recently read a few books on the matter, Goths in ancient Poland being one and it was stated that the term visigoth and ostrogoth was only created only once the Goths settled on the black sea.

The people where seperated as Visigoth if you where originally from lands west of the vistula river on the baltic sea and ostrogoths if you where east of the vistula river, so ostrogoths where the baltic people of aestii and venedi and germanic people of the peucini and Bastanae and some finni.

Geberic was succeeded by the most famous of the Gothic kings, Hermanaric (Eormenric, Iormunrekr), whose deeds are recorded in the traditions of all Teutonic nations.
He conquered the Heruli, the Aestii, the Venedi, and a number of other tribes.

Since the ostrogoths basically went only as far as the french-italian border in their invasion of the west and the visigoths went into iberia, would there be different markers of I due to this gothic system of seperation.

LeBrok
23-07-11, 09:14
Very interesting map, thanks Maciamo.
I'll go with option 3, explanation of Goths movement.
The might have originated from the hot spot in north Sweden. From polish archeology we know that Goths landed around year 0 at south shore of Baltic sea. They went rather quickly south to Black Sea. They went through land of Veneti pretty much peacefully. We find Goth's settlements just beside local villages. Same period of time, two cultures side by side.
By estimates, their march south is took about 150 years. It makes sense from this map that in such short time and peaceful journey they didn't leave genetic trail of their march south. They had spent much longer time at Black sea and this is where they left elevated level of I2b.

zanipolo
23-07-11, 09:46
Good work first of all!
Where do you have the assumption of these hotspots from? And what regions are they roughly?

what I recognise is the epirus area of Greece
- veneto and friuli of northern italy
- etruscan lands in middle italy
- south france, could be the migration of the east germanic burgundians , who settled there for a long time
vasterbotten IIRC is the northern part of sweden - i think sami people

and the german area today would be modern saxony, in ancient times it could be the chatti tribe

iapetoc
23-07-11, 10:41
Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26648-New-I1-map&p=376488#post376488) too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.

I wonder

Visigoths left so strong marks in Balkans, but not in Spain?

we know from historical times that visgoths created the kingdoms in spain, the Visgothian era of Iberian peninsula Theudis is a known Visigoth king against Vandals,
we know they ruled at Spania,
so I expect that their merks will be stronger than in italy and balkans, especially west,

On the other hand from Strabo we know that visigoths first map mark is the area of today North Bulgaria south romania, North of Haimos Mt to carpathian Mt which is also low %

Maciamo
23-07-11, 15:46
I wonder

Visigoths left so strong marks in Balkans, but not in Spain?


I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.

Frank
23-07-11, 16:26
I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.
But this wouldn't explain why autosomally the Iberians have the highest North-European levels of all Southern Europe (see genetic projects such as Dodecad or Eurogenes).

LeBrok
23-07-11, 17:14
I wonder if Magyars are responsible of bringing some I2b to Hungary, and Volga Bulgars spreading some to Balkans. They both supposedly came from the Russian hot spot area.
I2b is definitely not a Slavic marker.
It looks younger than Corded Ware Culture. We don't see any correlation with R1a/Corded Ware influence/spread.

Maciamo
23-07-11, 17:19
I wonder if Magyars are responsible of bringing some I2b to Hungary, and Volga Bulgars spreading some to Balkans. They both supposedly came from the Russian hot spot area.
I2b is definitely not a Slavic marker.
It looks younger than Corded Ware Culture. We don't see any correlation with R1a/Corded Ware influence/spread.

Probably not the Magyar, who were surely R1a. I'd say the Gepids, and perhaps later the Germans and Austrians colonising the region under the Habsburg rule.

I2b in Russia being of Viking origin, it arrived soon after the Magyar established themselves in Hungary.

Maciamo
23-07-11, 17:25
But this wouldn't explain why autosomally the Iberians have the highest North-European levels of all Southern Europe (see genetic projects such as Dodecad or Eurogenes).

1) less Near Eastern blood in Spain (especially in the centre and north-east) than in Italy, Greece or the Balkans

2) The Celts or Proto-Celts, who brought R1b to Iberia, also brought the genes that appear "West/North European" in the Dodecad admixtures.

archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 17:38
I don't know how to explain that. There is considerable I1 and I2b all the way the Visigoths and Ostrogoths settled, from the Moldova region to the southern Balkans, and from Italy to southern France, but much less in Spain. Perhaps it is that the bulk of the Gothic people remained around the Black Sea and only a relatively small army of elite Visigoths conquered Spain, but were too few to have an impact, or spread out so much around France and Iberia that the percentage they represented in each region was very small. Moldova and Epirus are small, compact areas compared to Iberia + South France.
The Visi-Goths didn't settle in Epirus or Aetolia. Nor did they settle in Smyrna or Peloponnese...

Maciamo
23-07-11, 20:31
The Visi-Goths didn't settle in Epirus or Aetolia. Nor did they settle in Smyrna or Peloponnese...

The Visigoths crossed the Danube into the Roman Empire in 376. They were allowed by the Romans to settled in Thrace in 380 and became foederati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati), like the Franks in Belgium. Under Theodosius, the Visigoths sacked and settled around Constantinople. Under his successor, Alaric I, ravaged Greece (as far as the Peloponese) in 396 before being driven back to the mountains of northern Greece and Macedonia. Whether some of them stayed behind, or whether they raped local women is unknown, but I2b and I1 had to get there one way or another.

I believe that one reasonable explanation is that the descendants of the Visigoths who had settled in Thrace dispersed to Macedonia, Greece and North-West Anatolia progressively over time. After all, they had become citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire, so why should they stay in one place when they could seek their fortunes further away within the empire's borders ? Just by marrying/moving from one village/town to the next each generation, the lineages would have dispersed naturally over the centuries. But if that is what happened, we should still expect a higher percentage in Thrace, shouldn't we ? Not necessarily. The Bulgars invaded the region a century later, and are known to have fought the Gothic armies of foederati. It's possible that many Gothic families, sentimentally unattached the the land of Thrace, sought refuge into the relative safety of the mountains of Epirus and Macedonia around that time.

With a bit of imagination we could come up with several other scenarios. The thing is that countless events went unrecorded in history, and others that were recorded at lost today, especially those from the Antiquity. So we will never know what or how it happened, but the point of population genetics is justly to help us better understand history by looking at what people left behind them, their genes, and try to rediscover what history has forgotten.

GloomyGonzales
24-07-11, 00:21
The location of the I2b hotspot in Russia is very interesting. I can not say for sure but It looks like this hotspot is located near Kazan (the capital of medieval Volga Bulgaria) and the rout of these I2b's started in the Ladoga or Beloe lake and then by the Volga river they sailed to the Caspian sea. This route perfectly matches the so-called Volga trade route of the Varangians. But I’m curious why we don't see any presence of I2b's on the so-called trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks via Veliky Novgorod and Kiev by the Dnepr river to the Black sea and as well I sea no presence of I2b near old Russian cities established at the times of the Kievan Rus’?

zanipolo
24-07-11, 01:01
The Visigoths crossed the Danube into the Roman Empire in 376. They were allowed by the Romans to settled in Thrace in 380 and became foederati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati), like the Franks in Belgium. Under Theodosius, the Visigoths sacked and settled around Constantinople. Under his successor, Alaric I, ravaged Greece (as far as the Peloponese) in 396 before being driven back to the mountains of northern Greece and Macedonia. Whether some of them stayed behind, or whether they raped local women is unknown, but I2b and I1 had to get there one way or another.

I believe that one reasonable explanation is that the descendants of the Visigoths who had settled in Thrace dispersed to Macedonia, Greece and North-West Anatolia progressively over time. After all, they had become citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire, so why should they stay in one place when they could seek their fortunes further away within the empire's borders ? Just by marrying/moving from one village/town to the next each generation, the lineages would have dispersed naturally over the centuries. But if that is what happened, we should still expect a higher percentage in Thrace, shouldn't we ? Not necessarily. The Bulgars invaded the region a century later, and are known to have fought the Gothic armies of foederati. It's possible that many Gothic families, sentimentally unattached the the land of Thrace, sought refuge into the relative safety of the mountains of Epirus and Macedonia around that time.

With a bit of imagination we could come up with several other scenarios. The thing is that countless events went unrecorded in history, and others that were recorded at lost today, especially those from the Antiquity. So we will never know what or how it happened, but the point of population genetics is justly to help us better understand history by looking at what people left behind them, their genes, and try to rediscover what history has forgotten.


I wonder if the "true" goths ( I1 and or I2 )where the ostrogoths of Scandza sweden ,and these settled in balkans and italy , while the visigoths where the recruited men ( into the gothic army ) , from the black sea gothic lands of Sarmatians and scythians?

These sarmatians and scythians would be Ra1 or ?
Also, the germanic bastanae was living in the north of the Scythians

LeBrok
24-07-11, 05:24
Probably not the Magyar, who were surely R1a. I'd say the Gepids, and perhaps later the Germans and Austrians colonising the region under the Habsburg rule. Most likely you are right here.


I2b in Russia being of Viking origin, it arrived soon after the Magyar established themselves in Hungary.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg/793px-Viking_Expansion.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg)
According to this map Rus/viking area were more to the east. Bulgars correspond more with I2b hot spot though. Also the hot spot by black sea corresponds to Bulgars settlement in 8th century.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/da/Bulgaria_800ad.jpg/300px-Bulgaria_800ad.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgaria_800ad.jpg)

On other hand, I2b looks more like a strong Germanic marker. It might mean that Rus/vicing/goth settlements were longer lasting in these areas than we tend to think. Some Goths minorities existed by black sea till recent times. Not all the Goths moved out by 500 hundreds. Many stayed behind and had longer time to influence gene pool in this area. It might be true also for Volga hot spot.

spongetaro
24-07-11, 06:03
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif



South eastern French I2b may have something to do with the Ligurians whose territory was larger than nowadays Liguria before being reduced to the French and Italian riviera after the Celtic invasions.
BTW, we can see that I2b predates U152 in the area as U152 is very low in the region (Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur has only 11% of it) and since no Germanic people is recorded in the area.

Alsace: 22.5%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais: 17.65%
Auvergne: 16.85%
Ile-de-France: 14.29%
Midi-Pyrenees: 13.43%
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur: 11.11%

zanipolo
24-07-11, 06:14
Most likely you are right here.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg/793px-Viking_Expansion.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg)
According to this map Rus/viking area were more to the east. Bulgars correspond more with I2b hot spot though. Also the hot spot by black sea corresponds to Bulgars settlement in 8th century.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/da/Bulgaria_800ad.jpg/300px-Bulgaria_800ad.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgaria_800ad.jpg)

On other hand, I2b looks more like a strong Germanic marker. It might mean that Rus/vicing/goth settlements were longer lasting in these areas than we tend to think. Some Goths minorities existed by black sea till recent times. Not all the Goths moved out by 500 hundreds. Many stayed behind and had longer time to influence gene pool in this area. It might be true also for Volga hot spot.

if what you say about the germanic marker is correct, then due to the 500 years of the germanic bastarnae in the black sea area would make a big dent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

LeBrok
24-07-11, 07:38
Sure, the I2b signature could be cumulative of few Germanic peoples.
I'm giving up on Bulgars. They went too fast through the area, and there is nothing much of I2b in current Bulgaria region.
I2b has to be linked with Germanic tribes who stayed a long time in these areas. I mean a long time, at least 500 years +.

What will we make out of Greece hot spot? What German tribe settled there? I have no idea, German tourists? :)

.....

Then I had another look at the map. It is quite buffling the track from Volga hot spot to Black Sea hot spot to Greece hot spot. It is totaly separtated from north-west Europe hot spots. Looks like something went down from Volga to Greece, or from Greece with Greek colonists and up the Volga.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 11:13
According to this map Rus/viking area were more to the east. Bulgars correspond more with I2b hot spot though.

As I said before, the I2b map is very approximate due to the sparsity of data. Studies prior to 2007 almost never gave the percentages of I2b, but just all I's together, or I1b2 (what is called I2a on this site) and IxI1b2. The hotspot in the Volga Bulgar region is solely based on the old I1c map from Rootsi et al. 2004 (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf). The only detailed study of I2b in Russia I have is Balanovsky et al. 2008 (http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2807%2900025-0) and they didn't test the Volga Bulgars region. They found between 1.7% and 4.2% of I2b in Vladimir Oblast (the name of which is incidentally of Viking origin, derived from Valdemar) and 2.2% of I2b among Kuban Cossacks (who did not originated from the Kuban/North Caucasus region though). The Vladimir Oblast is one of the main area settled by the Varangians.



On other hand, I2b looks more like a strong Germanic marker. It might mean that Rus/vicing/goth settlements were longer lasting in these areas than we tend to think. Some Goths minorities existed by black sea till recent times. Not all the Goths moved out by 500 hundreds. Many stayed behind and had longer time to influence gene pool in this area. It might be true also for Volga hot spot.

Indeed, a lot of Goths stayed on the northern Black Sea shores. Only the elite, the army and their relatives moved into the Roman empire. We have virtually no written information about what happened in Ukraine and Russia in the late Antiquity, and not much during the Middle Ages.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 11:20
if what you say about the germanic marker is correct, then due to the 500 years of the germanic bastarnae in the black sea area would make a big dent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

Very good point about the Bastarnae. I didn't think about them. Wikipedia describes them as a mixed Celto-Germanic group. They could therefore have originated at the boundary between Celtic and Germanic cultures, namely central Germany, which is exactly where I2b peaks today !

GloomyGonzales
24-07-11, 11:54
This mystery can be easily explained if we look into recent Russian history. In 1762 year Yekaterina II invited farmers from Germanic countries to colonize Low Volga region (Samara - Saratov). I guess a lot of Germanic people settled there. In Russia they are called Volga Germans. Furthermore there was Volga Germans Republic during 1918-1941. That can explain why we see I2b hotspot in this region but not Viking I1. If I am right there should be correlation between R1b and I2b distribution in Low Volga region.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 14:20
This mystery can be easily explained if we look into recent Russian history. In 1762 year Yekaterina II invited farmers from Germanic countries to colonize Low Volga region (Samara - Saratov). I guess a lot of Germanic people settled there. In Russia they are called Volga Germans. Furthermore there was Volga Germans Republic during 1918-1941. That can explain why we see I2b hotspot in this region but not Viking I1. If I am right there should be correlation between R1b and I2b distribution in Low Volga region.

That's a good point, but Germans also have I1, and anyway I1 is present in the region alongside I2b. As you mentioned earlier, the Volga was the main trade route of the Varangian Vikings. So I would attribute the presence of I1 and I2b along the Volga to a cumulative effect of Swedish Vikings and Volga Germans.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 15:02
I was looking at Bosch et al. 2006 (http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf), who studied the Aromun population in South Albania, Macedonia and Romania. The Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs) (or Aromanians or Vlachs) speak Romance languages related to Romanian. They are considered the descendants of Latinised Balkanic peoples, like the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians. In other words, their DNA should be the closest to that of the inhabitants of the Southeast Europe during the late Roman Empire, before the Slavs, Bulgars, Turks and others invaded the region. The fact that they kept their language intact is, I believe, proof enough that they didn't mix with the new immigrants. If the Goths became Roman citizens and adopted Latin, their descendants ought to be found primarily among these Aromanians. Now just look at what I found.

The five Aromanian/Vlach population tested had between 17% and 42% of haplogroup I. The highest was for the sample from Andon Poci in South Albania, close to the Greek border (and close to our I2b hotspot). They also had 37% of R1b ! No R1a though. Granted the sample size is small, but all Aromun populations (except the one from central Albania) had a high level of both I and R1. The others have about the same percentage of I, R1a and R1b. Unfortunately the subclades of I were not tested, but if there is a substantial amount of I1 and I2b, as there should be in the region based on other studies, then there is a very good chance that these are the descendants of the Goths we discussed above.

Here is a map of Aromanian/Vlach populations.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map-balkans-vlachs.png

The Aromuns from Stip in Macedonia have 17% of I, 21.5% of R1a and 23% of R1b. These are typically Germanic proportions, especially if the R1a cannot be attributed to the Slavs, Bulgars or other late-comers from Russia or Central Asia.

The non-Aromun populations in the region (Romanian, Macedonian, Albanian) have only between 8% and 16% of R1b, 13% being the average. Aromuns have between 23% and 37% of R1b in the same countries. They have clearly different ancestry. We can speculate a lot without knowing the subclades of I and R1b involved. It could be mostly native Balkanic I2a + Roman R1b-U152 and/or Anatolian R1b. Or it could be Germanic I1+I2b+R1b. Or even a mixture of both. It's too bad Bosch et al. didn't test the subclades as it makes the study inconclusive.

The map of I2b uses only the data of non-Vlach populations.

EDIT : I jus noticed that the STR values for all the samples in Bosch et al. are in appendix. I will check to see if I can determine the subclades of I.

Shetop
24-07-11, 16:58
EDIT : I jus noticed that the STR values for all the samples in Bosch et al. are in appendix. I will check to see if I can determine the subclades of I.

Very intriguing hypothesis. Looking forward for possible prediction of I subclades.

Taranis
24-07-11, 19:24
Thanks for that map, Maciamo.

Maciamo
24-07-11, 20:43
I had a quick look. I don't have time today to check all the 67 haplotypes. If someone does, feel free to enter the STR values in this Haplogroup Predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm).

Most of the I's appear to be I2, and mostly I2a2-Din. So it seems that they are native to the region.

I1's are easy to spot. The DYS390 value is almost always 22. There are 8 haplotypes with this value : 2 Greeks, 3 Macedonians and 3 Romanians. Not a single Aromun.

I ran a few of the R1b haplotypes most common among the Aromuns and got 35% chance of Eastern European R1b, followed by Irish R1b and R1b-S28. It therefore looks more Italo-Celtic than Germanic.

Typical Germanic R1b (S21) has DYS390=23. But some other R1b also have this value. I decided to run only those., and they were indeed Frisian R1b or R1b-S21. Out of the 5 Germanic R1b, there are 2 Aromuns from Romania, 1 Romanian and 2 Macedonians.

It looks like the Aromuns are not related to the Goths after all, but that Gothic or other Germanic lineages are part of the mainstream (non-Aromun) population of the region.

zanipolo
12-08-11, 09:48
@Maciano

Where did you get these numbers for North east Italy?

Bodin
16-08-11, 21:49
[QUOTE=LeBrok;376565

Some Goths minorities existed by black sea till recent times. Not all the Goths moved out by 500 hundreds. Many stayed behind and had longer time to influence gene pool in this area. It might be true also for Volga hot spot.[/QUOTE]
I believe that there was Gotic minority on the coast of Black see in XVII century and they were speaking Gotic , and some of the words had writened when Russians taked aeria . But sun Gotic minority blend in to Russians and seized to egzist.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 22:06
I believe that there was Gotic minority on the coast of Black see in XVII century and they were speaking Gotic , and some of the words had writened when Russians taked aeria . But sun Gotic minority blend in to Russians and seized to egzist.


you talking about this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic

Maciamo
03-10-12, 10:06
I have updated the map of I2b (ISOGG I2a2)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

Eldritch
25-11-12, 17:49
I think Normans might have been I-M223 heavy.
Just look at Sicily and compare it to mainland Italy.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/M223-Y-Clan/default.aspx?section=ymap

Eldritch
04-06-13, 19:36
The Visi-Goths didn't settle in Epirus or Aetolia. Nor did they settle in Smyrna or Peloponnese...
Actually the highest percentage of I-M170 in Greece is found in Thessaly/Macedonia and not Epirus, now what subclades might be it's mystery.

Ioannina(Epirus capital) have only 8.3 % of I-M170 which unless is all I-M223(Unlikely) wouldn't make Epirus the region with more I-M223 in Greece.

The highest I is observed in Serrai, Macedonia.


http://i.imgur.com/4lATZQ6.jpg

albanopolis
04-06-13, 21:35
Eqerem Cabej, a Viena educated Albanian Linguist studied the language of Aromanians. He speculated that some Illyrian tribes were Romanised and took latin as their native language. After Slavs came to Ballkans they became nomands. They new they had Illyrian roots, but their language was gone for good.Thats the reason they emigrated to Albannian lands,the blood connections not because they lost directions. Had they been of Germanic heretage they would have kept one word unchanged at least. They have not a single one in their vocabulary.There was no reason to change the word "mutter" at least. So Haplogroups R1b and I2b are also present in Albanian population. The Illyric origin of Aromanians makes a lot more sense that the Germanic one. It was a known fact that some Illyrians had northern origin. Not nessesary Germanic.

Yetos
04-06-13, 22:38
Eqerem Cabej, a Viena educated Albanian Linguist studied the language of Aromanians. He speculated that some Illyrian tribes were Romanised and took latin as their native language. After Slavs came to Ballkans they became nomands. They new they had Illyrian roots, but their language was gone for good.Thats the reason they emigrated to Albannian lands,the blood connections not because they lost directions. Had they been of Germanic heretage they would have kept one word unchanged at least. They have not a single one in their vocabulary.There was no reason to change the word "mutter" at least. So Haplogroups R1b and I2b are also present in Albanian population. The Illyric origin of Aromanians makes a lot more sense that the Germanic one. It was a known fact that some Illyrians had northern origin. Not nessesary Germanic.

whatever,

so aromani are Albanians is next post?
GODS,

maybe Roms or Rumlars are Albanian also?
what else?
maybe Romanians are the Illyrians that did not become nomadic?

gyms
05-06-13, 11:32
Maciamo:"Most of the I's appear to be I2, and mostly I2a2-Din. So it seems that they are native to the region." Is I2a2-Din "native to the region"?Hm...the old school dogma still alive.

Prengu
05-06-13, 12:05
So most of I2 of Albanians are mostly I2b?
This explain alot, because I1a which is exclusive Scandavian/German too is found among Albanians 6% and in balkan peaks in Kosovo/Macedonia/Albania also among Bulgarians and Croatis found almost 4%.

Seems I1a+I2b arrived together in Balkan.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 13:04
whatever,

so aromani are Albanians is next post?
GODS,

maybe Roms or Rumlars are Albanian also?
what else?
maybe Romanians are the Illyrians that did not become nomadic?

Wellcome to the world, fellow.! I know you are surprised, since you are taught Greece is the center of Universe. Now, it comes down it is not. Yes! Not ALL ancient Albanians escaped Romanisation! Parts where today Slavs reside were fully romanised, which means they no longer spoke Illyrian. Slavic invasion forced them to look for the surviving mode which is the nomandic life they chose. Eqerem Cabej found Albanian words in their language, even among Vllahs residing in Greece, and this raised questions about their origin. One explanation was the Illyrian Origin, Another one is the area of Vllahia in present day Romania. But there are serious descreoancyes between Romanian language and Vllah language that raises the posibility of Illyrian origin, at least some of them. Can't you see there are arguments of possible Germanic origin of them, in the forums? If you have seen them, do they look Germans to you?

Eldritch
05-06-13, 14:29
So most of I2 of Albanians are mostly I2b?
This explain alot, because I1a which is exclusive Scandavian/German too is found among Albanians 6% and in balkan peaks in Kosovo/Macedonia/Albania also among Bulgarians and Croatis found almost 4%.

Seems I1a+I2b arrived together in Balkan.
In Pericic study, Albanians from Kosovo seem to have more I-M253 than other I subclades but I-M223 is absent.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

albanopolis
05-06-13, 15:56
In Pericic study, Albanians from Kosovo seem to have more I-M253 than other I subclades but I-M223 is absent.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
Which of this Albanian clades is the same like Sardinians?
And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:




Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09





Y Haplogroup
Macedonians
Albanians
Others
Total


E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%
28.80%
14.30%
19.80%


E1b1b1b-M81
0
1.80%
0
0.60%


E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%
1.80%
0
2%


G-M201
3.80%
2.70%
4.80%
3.50%


H-M69
1.40%
1.80%
14.30%
2.30%


1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0
1.80%
4.80%
0.90%


I1-M253
1.90%
6.30%
0
3.20%


I2a-P37b
27.50%
1.80%
0
17.50%


I2b1-M223
1.90%
1.80%
4.80%
2%


J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%
1.80%
0
2.60%


J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%
2.70%
9.50%
4.40%


J2a4b-M67
2.80%
2.70%
9.50%
3.20%


J2b2-M241
5.20%
13.50%
4.80%
7.90%


L-M22
0.50%
0%
0
0.30%


N1c-Tat
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%
0
4.80%
0.60%


R1*-M173
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu
14.20%
12.60%
4.80%
13.10%


R1b1-P25
11.40%
18%
23.80%
14.30%


T-M70
1.90%
0
0
1.20%


TOTAL
100.00%
99.90%
100.20%
100.00%


* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations



It is a relaible study by Macedonian, foresic Laboratory. Sample size 115 I think. The credit for publishing this table go to a Macedonian member of this forum.

Eldritch
05-06-13, 15:59
Albanians from Macedonia according to the table you posted seem to still have much more I-M253 than other I clades.

R1a seems to be much higher than the Kosovars, Slavic influx?

albanopolis
05-06-13, 16:07
Albanians from Macedonia according to the table you posted seem to still have much more I-M253 than other I clades.

R1a seems to be much higher than the Kosovars, Slavic influx?

I wanted to ask which I subclade is the same like Sardinians. Yes, It makes sense, there have been intermarrigies among communities.

Eldritch
05-06-13, 16:24
I wanted to ask which I subclade is the same like Sardinians. Yes, It makes sense, there have been intermarrigies among communities.
From what i see Sardinian clade it's not present.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 16:35
From what i see Sardinian clade it's not present.
Thanks! There have been other studies who claim 2% Sardinian I subclade. About R1a in Albanians in Macedonia. Is it really slavic. I don't see much I2a AMONG Albanians. Usually the presence of I2a is higher than R1a among slavs. What is your opinion?

Prengu
05-06-13, 19:50
Funny think is in Battaglia (et al. 2008) study, is the opposite, found only 1.5 % R1a but 9.5% I2 among Albanians of Fyrom.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 20:54
Funny think is in Battaglia (et al. 2008) study, is the opposite, found only 1.5 % R1a but 9.5% I2 among Albanians of Fyrom.
I think this study is more accurate. Marrigies between Albanians and Slav Macedonians have happened all the time in Byzantine times. They stoped when Albanians Islamisized. Islam did not accept interreligios marrigies. So R1a could be a 2% points higher or lower if the sample size increases. I would guess it coulg go down 2 points to get in line with national average. I suspect R1b should increase 2 percentage points to 20% in line with Geg Kosovars. What I can't figure out is the ratio R1a to I2a. In most south slavic populations the ratio I2a:R1a is 2:1. If R1a in Macedonian Albanians was Slavic presence then the amount of I2a among population should have been around 20%. In fact it is just 3%. Can you explain why?

Shetop
05-06-13, 21:34
I think this study is more accurate. Marrigies between Albanians and Slav Macedonians have happened all the time in Byzantine times. They stoped when Albanians Islamisized. Islam did not accept interreligios marrigies. So R1a could be a 2% points higher or lower if the sample size increases. I would guess it coulg go down 2 points to get in line with national average. I suspect R1b should increase 2 percentage points to 20% in line with Geg Kosovars. What I can't figure out is the ratio R1a to I2a. In most south slavic populations the ratio I2a:R1a is 2:1. If R1a in Macedonian Albanians was Slavic presence then the amount of I2a among population should have been around 20%. In fact it is just 3%. Can you explain why?

Greek Macedonia is a region where significant numbers of Slavs had settled. It also today has much larger population than West FYROM. And I know about two studies which report higher R1a than I2a-Din percentage there (one study says 2 times higher).
Also Bulgaria for example is a Slavic country which does not have 2:1 ratio you wrote about.

So, I would say there was no strict ratio between I2a-Din and R1a among Slavs. But as it is obvious I2a-Din was in general more frequent than R1a among South Slavs.

Yetos
05-06-13, 22:38
Greek Macedonia is a region where significant numbers of Slavs had settled. It also today has much larger population than West FYROM. And I know about two studies which report higher R1a than I2a-Din percentage there (one study says 2 times higher).
Also Bulgaria for example is a Slavic country which does not have 2:1 ratio you wrote about.

So, I would say there was no strict ratio between I2a-Din and R1a among Slavs. But as it is obvious I2a-Din was in general more frequent than R1a among South Slavs.

Semi correct.

Greek Makedonia has a 23% R1a much of it fits with Eastern R1a the one you call Slav,
But Greek Makedonia has also significant diversity of R1a, which can be consider either as sink, either as homeland of R1a.
the R1a of Greece follows a downstream to Greece the one we known from history as the Dorian way. stops at 13% at Locri and follows a 5-8% to all Dorian lands, except Epizzephyreian Locri which is above 10%,
that road which is certified historically and genetically show the origin and genetics of Dorian descent,

in whole Italy (Magna Grecia) the biggest R1a concentrations are there where Dorians settled.

so the myth of R1a as Slavic mark is just a fairy tale,
in fact the I2a Din which has 2 major concentrations in Dinaric Alps and Skopje is better mark than R1a which expand even to Magna Grecia, a land which Slavs never settled to have such concentrations.

it seems like Slavs stop at Makedonia, and only families and followers via marriages with Palaiologos family went more south to Helmos mountains Peloponese,

Shetop
05-06-13, 22:45
I agree that (smaller) part of Balkan R1a can be non-Slavic.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 23:12
Greek Macedonia is a region where significant numbers of Slavs had settled. It also today has much larger population than West FYROM. And I know about two studies which report higher R1a than I2a-Din percentage there (one study says 2 times higher).
Also Bulgaria for example is a Slavic country which does not have 2:1 ratio you wrote about.

So, I would say there was no strict ratio between I2a-Din and R1a among Slavs. But as it is obvious I2a-Din was in general more frequent than R1a among South Slavs.
I agree with your reasoning to a point. Data show that Slavs are higher in R1a. Somebody in a forum about haplogroup R1a was saying that there are 2 subclades of R1a and they both appear to be Slavic. I was thinking that if Slavic invasions happened in two steps, first R1a slavs came in, and then I2a. But again Macedonian Slavs are mostly I2a. So it makes no sense. Could it be that the lab found it wrong?

Shetop
05-06-13, 23:28
I agree with your reasoning to a point. Data show that Slavs are higher in R1a. Somebody in a forum about haplogroup R1a was saying that there are 2 subclades of R1a and they both appear to be Slavic. I was thinking that if Slavic invasions happened in two steps, first R1a slavs came in, and then I2a. But again Macedonian Slavs are mostly I2a. So it makes no sense. Could it be that the lab found it wrong?

I don't understand. Why do you think Slavic invasions "happened in two steps"?

albanopolis
05-06-13, 23:32
Semi correct.

Greek Makedonia has a 23% R1a much of it fits with Eastern R1a the one you call Slav,
But Greek Makedonia has also significant diversity of R1a, which can be consider either as sink, either as homeland of R1a.
the R1a of Greece follows a downstream to Greece the one we known from history as the Dorian way. stops at 13% at Locri and follows a 5-8% to all Dorian lands, except Epizzephyreian Locri which is above 10%,
that road which is certified historically and genetically show the origin and genetics of Dorian descent,

in whole Italy (Magna Grecia) the biggest R1a concentrations are there where Dorians settled.

so the myth of R1a as Slavic mark is just a fairy tale,
in fact the I2a Din which has 2 major concentrations in Dinaric Alps and Skopje is better mark than R1a which expand even to Magna Grecia, a land which Slavs never settled to have such concentrations.

it seems like Slavs stop at Makedonia, and only families and followers via marriages with Palaiologos family went more south to Helmos mountains Peloponese,
I have heard stories that slavs had settlments all over continental Greece. I have met Greeks named Ivan. It did not sound Greek to me. But R1a being Ballkanic is not widely accepted, I think. I am not genetist so I rely on what others say. R1a in Italy by the way is at minimum values of 3%. Had R1a being Ballkanic like e-v13, or J would have had a larger impact on Italy.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 23:34
I don't understand. Why do you think Slavic invasions "happened in two steps"?I am trying to justify the lack of I2a in Albanians of Macedonia.

Shetop
06-06-13, 00:04
I am trying to justify the lack of I2a in Albanians of Macedonia.

I guess it is for the same reason as for the lack of I2a in Northern Albania and Kosovar Albanians.
So either Slavs settled West FYROM in minor numbers or maybe that region was (sometime after early middle ages) resettled by Albanians Nortwest from there.

kamani
06-06-13, 00:17
I am trying to justify the lack of I2a in Albanians of Macedonia.

Their genes are more neolithic than Albanians from Albania. Mountain areas are often refuges for old genes under attack. The South-Albanian I2a is I2a2b, attributed to Indo-European migrations from central europe in the Bronze Age, also found at 2-4% in ex-Jugoslavia (that's all that is left of it over there).

albanopolis
06-06-13, 01:27
Their genes are more neolithic than Albanians from Albania. Mountain areas are often refuges for old genes under attack. The South-Albanian I2a is I2a2b, attributed to Indo-European migrations from central europe in the Bronze Age, also found at 2-4% in ex-Jugoslavia (that's all that is left of it over there).
What is I2a2b a haplogroup or a haplotype? If it is a haplotype it doesn't matter is a small variation in the same group. I have read that there are two major I2a Haplogruops Northern dinaric and Southern dinaric. I have no Idea if its true or not, but I have not seen any such division. So if I2a2b is a haplotype is still slavic.

kamani
06-06-13, 01:57
What is I2a2b a haplogroup or a haplotype? If it is a haplotype it doesn't matter is a small variation in the same group. I have read that there are two major I2a Haplogruops Northern dinaric and Southern dinaric. I have no Idea if its true or not, but I have not seen any such division. So if I2a2b is a haplotype is still slavic.

It is a haplogroup associated with late Bronze Age Celtic La Tene Culture (and with Celts in general).
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary

Yetos
06-06-13, 07:18
@Albanoplois

so your problem is why Gegs have not high R1a, while R1a is higher in else?

In Italy in Greek colonies R1a reach 8% and especially in sarento is 13% like in Lokris where Dorian settled.
there is a search that gives 24% in Lokri Italy.
the R1a in Greece seems to be 3500 years old,
and Balkans so tremendous diversity in R1a,
It can be due to a sink phenomena , or it means that Balkans was a homelend of R1a.

we also see R1a in Thraciians means is older than Slavic migration. although is another diversity.

zanipolo
06-06-13, 08:27
@Albanoplois

so your problem is why Gegs have not high R1a, while R1a is higher in else?

In Italy in Greek colonies R1a reach 8% and especially in sarento is 13% like in Lokris where Dorian settled.
there is a search that gives 24% in Lokri Italy.
the R1a in Greece seems to be 3500 years old,
and Balkans so tremendous diversity in R1a,
It can be due to a sink phenomena , or it means that Balkans was a homelend of R1a.

we also see R1a in Thraciians means is older than Slavic migration. although is another diversity.

Cimmeranians are related to Thracians and they also where R1a, they also lived on the north of the black sea before Scythians and sarmatians arrived

zanipolo
06-06-13, 08:32
It is a haplogroup associated with late Bronze Age Celtic La Tene Culture (and with Celts in general).
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary

correct, the celts assimilated the Illyrians BEFORE the Romans arrived. The celts even failed in an invasion of Greece at the time.

Eldritch
06-06-13, 13:46
Thanks! There have been other studies who claim 2% Sardinian I subclade. About R1a in Albanians in Macedonia. Is it really slavic. I don't see much I2a AMONG Albanians. Usually the presence of I2a is higher than R1a among slavs. What is your opinion?
Sardinian clade in Balkans? I'm surprised honestly, i have heard of an I2a1b clade of French type found there but never about the Sardinian one.


Funny think is in Battaglia (et al. 2008) study, is the opposite, found only 1.5 % R1a but 9.5% I2 among Albanians of Fyrom.
I'm not aware of this study.

kamani
06-06-13, 15:47
correct, the celts assimilated the Illyrians BEFORE the Romans arrived. The celts even failed in an invasion of Greece at the time.

The only CELTICIZED Illyrians were northern Dalmatians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia) and some Pannonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonians), so the Illyrians of Croatia, but that started happening around 300 BC, which is "close" to the roman invasion.

What I am saying is a bit different: the Illyrians themselves were a mix of Bronze Age (2000 BC) Central-European
invaders with native Pelasgians. Because invaders always take the arrable lands, you would find the Pelasgians more hidden in the mountains (North-Albania), and the Central-Europeans more concentrated in the low-lands (South-Albania). This explains the I2a2b (Central-European) found mainly in South-Albanians, and the 43% E-v13 (Pelasgian) in Kosovo.
The Greeks knew this too, in their mythology Illyrus, Gallus, and Celtus were brothers. The Greeks were not in contact with Croatian Illyrians, they were in contact with South-Illyrians.

gyms
06-06-13, 16:00
Can you please stop this panslavic-pangermanic-nationalistic-panindoeuropean pseudopopulationgenetic absurdity?!Haplogroup I2a-Din IS NOT Dinaric,NOT Balcanic,NOT Slavic! Slavic,Germanic,Latin are linguistic terms,not ethnic terms!!!!!!!So please...I2a was not even present in Balkan peninsula during Roman era. http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

apulomilan
10-09-13, 02:41
The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.

apulomilan
10-09-13, 02:53
Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.

MOESAN
13-09-13, 22:08
The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.

so, a population from a region poor enough concerning an HG could have developped this HG at high enough scale in a target region where its emigrants did never become dominent, an that at modern times?

Sile
13-09-13, 23:40
Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.

this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?

MOESAN
14-09-13, 09:46
to APULOMILAN

sorry, I did a mistake, thinking we were speaking about Y-I2b = new I2a1b (as a whole the "DIN" one)!
then, neither the origin region nor the "target" territory is full of Y-I2b, ex I1c, newly I2a2 and it temperates my remark - nevertheless, my remark, even concerning the righ HG, is still the same: a ~6-8% HG in the region of origin passing to 4-6% in the colonized region would require the colonizators would make ~50% of their new 'home' population: I find it very heavy! even taking in account only males -
interesting to know about the 'Bessarabian Germans' nevertheless -thanks

MOESAN
14-09-13, 10:29
just a remark (maybe I did it before?)
the Maciamo maps (much thanks to him) are precious for hotspots and general concentration of some Hgs but they have the same defect as all maps: the question of limit: the change of colour is very impressive and we are tempted to consider as very different regions which are in two different colours: it recall me somebody here claiming today Welshmen had much more Y-G2a than other British: but in fact as a whole they have only 2,5% of it, which does not make Wales a "hotspot" of Y-G; but as they were in company of 5% other regions...
an other defect of maps: we lack numerous enough detailed regional studies so I suppose Maciamo is obliged to "complete" poorly known regions by creating some gradual decreases or increases without more precise knowledge about them: (I think by instance in France where regional studies are very scarce)
I'm sure it will improve when we have more better sampled small regions studied everywhere (it needs time) whan we can see the impact of valleys, mountain passes and natural obstacles, regional chiefferies a.s.o.
I wait the coming maps of Maciamo! do not forget too History is running on and never stops even if founders events occurred more at ancient times than at modern times

I agree too with the thought that some Y-I2a2 -L38 (I2b here!) rambled along with Y-R1b-U152 with late Celtic tribes: the distribution in Brittain fits well enough this story (E-England and Scotland by instance) - other subHG (SNPs) of these two Hgs were send there by Germanic people (Anglo-Saxons for the most but some Danish people too) because the remnants of Celts and Belgae involved at Iron Ages were surely partially inbodied as mergins people in these germanic following colonisations of the 5° centuries - for the other subgroup of I2a2 more centered around Denmark I reserve my opinion but the explanations of Maciamo could be right... I wait more data from some eastern and southern regions

apulomilan
25-09-13, 18:53
this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?

Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.

apulomilan
25-09-13, 19:36
to APULOMILAN

sorry, I did a mistake, thinking we were speaking about Y-I2b = new I2a1b (as a whole the "DIN" one)!
then, neither the origin region nor the "target" territory is full of Y-I2b, ex I1c, newly I2a2 and it temperates my remark - nevertheless, my remark, even concerning the righ HG, is still the same: a ~6-8% HG in the region of origin passing to 4-6% in the colonized region would require the colonizators would make ~50% of their new 'home' population: I find it very heavy! even taking in account only males -
interesting to know about the 'Bessarabian Germans' nevertheless -thanks

I understand your remark.

Yet it is to be explained how the area of concentration represented on the map could corrispond quite enterely to the zone hinabited by Bessarabian Germans.

It can't be by a mere chance.

After all your hipotetical conclusion according to which the colonizators were 50% of the new home population is not so odd, if you consider, one hand, the limitation of the area and, on the other hand, the historical fact that the colonizations usually is directed to scarcely inhabited areas: and the Czars used to "invite" -time to time- western populations just to "fill" poorly inhabited territories in their neverending realms.

apulomilan
25-09-13, 19:48
this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?

Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.

adamo
25-09-13, 20:16
The highest frequencies of I2b are in 1. Northeastern coastal Sweden 2. Central Germany, this says nothing about diversity though.

adamo
25-09-13, 20:55
Certainly this haplogroup originally arrived from the Balkans/southeast Europe region towards it's highest frequency zone in Central Europe.

adamo
25-09-13, 20:58
That's what differentiates it from R haplogroup; it's hg I, it first arrived to Europe via the Balkans and southeastern Europe.From there, it would subsequently spread all across the Balkans (with a Bosnia Herzegovina I2a nucleus) to Scandinavia and to Sardinia in Europe.

epoch
15-10-13, 23:34
The hotspot in Germany is a very interesting one. It looks like it's Saxony-Anhalt or Thuringia. It would be very helpful if the resolution would be higher. Dienekes has a map in an article that discussed mtDNA distribution:

dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/10/ancient-central-european-mtdna-across.html

4.bp.blogspot.com/-bjpoHcWRUjk/Ulb1ky0aIsI/AAAAAAAAJL0/ymrp2bIA_K8/s1600/4events.jpg

The map describes the movement of U4 and U5 from Sweden into Germany to a cultural area where the Baalberge and Salzmuende cultures existed. These mtDNA groups are, just like Ib2, related to the original hunter-gatherer population of Europe if I recall correctly. The area is also part of the Funnelbeaker culture area, which preceded and continued to the north-western part of the Corded Ware culture. Dutch archeologists consider the Funnelbeaker culture a continuation of previous cultures.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture#Ethnicity_and_language

According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis the Germanic language family contain a lot of words that have no indo-european origin, especially words related to war and ships. The idea is that Germanic peoples at least partly didn't originate from indo-european migrations. The Nordic bronze-age, which would give birth to Germanic cultures, left a large amount of petroglyphs of whih images of boats form a large part. The Ib2 hotspot in Germany also roughly coincides with the area in which Roman authors placed the Suevian tribes: Semnones, Longobardes, Hermanduri, Varni, Suerines. The tribes which were called Suevian vary by each author. However, the core area of the Suevian tribes is near eastern Germany. Oddly enough the first expansion of the Nordic bronze-age culture in the iron-age, a culture called Jastorf cukture, also is in this area.

Would this haplogroup have a relation with this, in it being another mixed culture of indo-europeans and original hunter-gatherers? There seems strong genetic evidence that the spread of agriculture from the Middle-east was due to migrations. However, there is also archeological evidence - see link of Funnelbeaker culture - of adaptation in North-West of Europe. The Funnelbeaker culture - or part of the area it was found - might very well be a mixed population or even hunter-gatherers slowly adapting to agriculture. The Dutch Swifterband, which was a mesolithic culture related to the Ertebølle culture, is considered ancestral to the Funnelbeaker culture.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swifterbant_culture

The spread of Suevians is considered to be related to the spread of the High German language. Tacitus even called the Angles Suevian. The Warns and part of the Angles moved south to form Thuringians. The Lex Thuringorum actually was called Lex Angliorum et Werinorum hoc est Thuringorum. Suevians took part of the forming of the Allamanes and current Schwabia (Switzerland and in the south west of Germany) during the peoples movements of the dark ages, both areas with elevated I2a2 levels. However, a small part remained in the lands, which were settled mostly by Elbe-slavs after the Suevians left. That area was called Suevengau or Schwabengau in the early middle-ages. It was, again roughly, at this hotspot. The duchy of Anhalt originated from it.

During the middle ages the area where the Elbe-slavs settled was then settled by Saxon immigrants, that spoke low German dialects. However, the area neighbouring Anhalt in the Harz is a High German language island (Upper Harz dialect). The name Anhalt itself also is High German.

crew
24-03-14, 08:06
I believe time of migrations have the most to tell us about the people in question. When we know the date of a settlement then we can tell who the people are.
A minority in a majority can be either very old population or a very new, all depending on time.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 12:11
It's the map of I-M223? Few other information for southern Italy: hotspot in Cosenza 6,67% (3 samples), 2,94% in Trapani, 2,22% in Agrigento and 1,92 in Catania. Not founded in Lecce, Matera, Ragusa and Enna in Sarno et al.

MOESAN
20-12-14, 22:26
It's the map of I-M223? Few other information for southern Italy: hotspot in Cosenza 6,67% (3 samples), 2,94% in Trapani, 2,22% in Agrigento and 1,92 in Catania. Not founded in Lecce, Matera, Ragusa and Enna in Sarno et al.

thanks - if you have some new local %s about Italy, I (and we?) would be very glad to read them -
buona notte

Jason Neuharth
17-03-15, 01:08
Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.
My family came from the Südwestpfalz and moved to Moldova in 1806 then to the Midwest USA in late 1870.

Jason Neuharth
27-06-15, 04:55
I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

In Belgium (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032), let's note that Wallonia has 7% of I2b, considerably more than the 4.5% in Flanders. It's strange since Flanders is supposed to be more Germanic, and the percentage of I1 doesn't vary much between the two regions (12% in Flanders and 11% in Wallonia).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


There are many theories concerning the presence of I2b in Russia, Ukraine and Moldova.

1) They are remnants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

2) I2b was part of the Indo-European haplogroups, and some pockets have survived around the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

3) The (Swedish) Vikings brought I2b to Russia, and the Ostrogoths to Moldova (Chernyakhov culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_Culture), which corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium).

Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26648-New-I1-map&p=376488#post376488) too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.

With 6 new I-M223 ancient dna 4 Hungary 1in russia and 1 in spain is changing origin and movements I will go with option 4 mesolithic and early neolithic in the Hungarian Plain. One in Spain and the one in Russia is equal distance to the ones in Hungary. Making Hungary I M223 is epicenter. I M223 moved Northwest Europe with your option 2 with the indo - europeans during the Bronze Age. Then with option 3 in the iron age to viking age.

Jason Neuharth
02-07-15, 17:01
Vučedol Hungary Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10] 2860-2620 BC I2a2a M223+ H5
this makes 5 M223 for Ancient Y-DNA for Hungary.

Peter Wilding
15-04-18, 22:58
The swathe from East Anglia (Norfolk, Suffolk) in England through the East and North Midlands to Lancashire is something I'm interested in. Has anyone any idea of what this might mean? Any historical event(s) that fits with this pattern? Any ideas?

Tutkun Arnaut
15-12-18, 16:32
I just found out I belong to this haplogroup! What a surprise, I never thought I could descend from the cave man! I had a feeling that I could belong to J2 haplogroup. South Albania has as much as 6% of its population belong to this haplogroup. I don't think this is Germanic, its local, from prehistory. There is also 11% I1 in south Albania which I think is Gothic, and another 11% of Slavic origin, comprising a total of 26% in a sample of 182 people, from south. The sample continues to rise by the day and we are getting a better picture of Albanian y DNA. People have a site where they post their DNA taken by different companies.

Pan
04-03-19, 02:03
I just found out I belong to this haplogroup! What a surprise, I never thought I could descend from the cave man! I had a feeling that I could belong to J2 haplogroup. South Albania has as much as 6% of its population belong to this haplogroup. I don't think this is Germanic, its local, from prehistory. There is also 11% I1 in south Albania which I think is Gothic, and another 11% of Slavic origin, comprising a total of 26% in a sample of 182 people, from south. The sample continues to rise by the day and we are getting a better picture of Albanian y DNA. People have a site where they post their DNA taken by different companies.

It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.

DuPidh
05-03-19, 01:36
It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.

Mine:I2 m223>L701>S25733>A427. So basically we have a distant link in our fathers side. According to Eupedia my link is suppose to be Germanic or North Slavic. Both possible. Or could be local. All what I have seen in Albania are all the same.(about 13 people) in a sample of 230 people.

Tutkun Arnaut
15-03-19, 12:36
It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.

It seems that my linage is Gothic. The closest matches are in Germany, then in England. Very rare in Albania. So far in a sample of 659 people no other matches in Albania. The name in avatar is not real

Eldritch
15-03-19, 18:01
It seems that my linage is Gothic. The closest matches are in Germany, then in England. Very rare in Albania. So far in a sample of 659 people no other matches in Albania. The name in avatar is not real
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2a

Why is you subclade, L801, not on Eupedia's page?

Tutkun Arnaut
17-03-19, 01:05
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a2a

Why is you subclade, L801, not on Eupedia's page?

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/I2a2-tree.png
Goths have left a huge imprint in South Albania! About 11% I1 m253, 5% m223, and R1b and R1a. I estimate in total between 15% to 20%. The sample size from South Albania is 230.The samples are drawn from people who are curious about their origin and record their tests in a website. As sample size grows the data could change. Second noticeable imprint is Slavic recognized by I2a1 around 11% OF SAMPLES.

CrazyDonkey
26-07-20, 08:54
I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

In Belgium (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032), let's note that Wallonia has 7% of I2b, considerably more than the 4.5% in Flanders. It's strange since Flanders is supposed to be more Germanic, and the percentage of I1 doesn't vary much between the two regions (12% in Flanders and 11% in Wallonia).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


There are many theories concerning the presence of I2b in Russia, Ukraine and Moldova.

1) They are remnants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

2) I2b was part of the Indo-European haplogroups, and some pockets have survived around the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

3) The (Swedish) Vikings brought I2b to Russia, and the Ostrogoths to Moldova (Chernyakhov culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_Culture), which corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium).

Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26648-New-I1-map&p=376488#post376488) too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.

Hey, Maciamo,

Any thoughts on the SE Ulster (County Down)/SW Scotland hotspot. Not likely to have been Swedish Vikings or Visigoths. Doggerlandian remnants?