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Blau
23-07-11, 04:46
So i was wondering, based on studies of Haplogroups, is there anyway to determine how Celtic Scotland is? Does anyone have information on this please?

spongetaro
23-07-11, 09:59
Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

Blau
23-07-11, 17:25
Thanks for your reply. How frequent is R1b L21 and how much of the overall % of R1b in Scotland is made up of R1b L21?
It would be possible would it not for someone to look at invasion areas and the rates of R1b U106 to determine whether it would be mostly from Germanic invaders? Are there any graphs of the subclades of R1b in Scotland? I think it would be very interesting to look at. Also, i've read on here about a rare haplogroup found in Scotland (and Northern Ireland, presumably from the Ulster Scots) but i cannot remember its name, would you possibly be able to tell me anything on that? Sorry for the vagueness. I think it was I2-something disles, or something like that.

DavidCoutts
23-07-11, 22:53
Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

zanipolo
24-07-11, 01:06
according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



also
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1300461500

spongetaro
24-07-11, 05:43
True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

It may have something to do with the Beakers. Does anyone have a link with a recent map of L21 ?

spongetaro
24-07-11, 05:53
according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



also
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1300461500


The R1b U152 found in Eastern Scotland is related to that found in the Netherland, it is L2 if I remember

Blau
29-07-11, 04:48
according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



also
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-03/1300461500

Thank you for the links

Maciamo
29-07-11, 10:26
You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx?vgroup=Scottishdna&vgroup=Scottishdna&section=yresults). It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

spongetaro
29-07-11, 11:15
On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754

Haganus
29-07-11, 11:29
I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
By birds? The haplogroup Q is totallt absent in Denmark, Germany and the
Benelux.

Maciamo
29-07-11, 11:58
I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
By birds? The haplogroup Q is totallt absent in Denmark, Germany and the
Benelux.

You are wrong. Q represents 3% of lineages in Norway and Sweden, 2% in North Germany, 1-2% in Denmark and Iceland and 0.5% in the Netherlands.

sparkey
29-07-11, 17:41
On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754

I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.

spongetaro
29-07-11, 17:50
I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.

From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
(you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)

You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)

sparkey
29-07-11, 18:04
From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
(you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)

Keep in mind that we expect less I1 in East Anglia than in the Eastern Lowlands even if their Germanic-ness is identical, because they were settled by different types of Germanic peoples (Scotland getting more North Germanic peoples with lots of I1 and East Anglia getting more West Germanic peoples with lots of R1b-U106). But even with that said, you could be right about the gradient being starker in Scotland than in England. I haven't looked closely at distributions in the Lowlands, could they be the most Germanic place in Britain?


You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)

OK, but for every decent thread like the one you linked, there's one like this (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=142914), hence my skepticism.

spongetaro
29-07-11, 18:41
OK, but for every decent thread like the one you linked, there's one like this (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=142914), hence my skepticism.


I know that the underlying ideology of that kind of forum is racist (revisionism, white supremacy...) but that thread in particular is just about history and anthropology

DavidCoutts
30-07-11, 19:19
You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx?vgroup=Scottishdna&vgroup=Scottishdna&section=yresults). It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

So almost half of Scots are Germanic? I was'nt aware of that. Mind you, a lot of my closer matches on GeneBase are English or Germanic...

Carlitos
31-07-11, 01:26
Here the whole world is Celtic less Spain.

zanipolo
31-07-11, 02:25
Here the whole world is Celtic less Spain.

you can be slavic if you like because thats what some say for all of europe :laughing:

Wilhelm
31-07-11, 16:47
Forget about haplogroups. SW Scottish at Eurogenes have the following autosomal percentages, labels are arbitrary :

56.6 % North-Atlantic (peaks in Irish)
27.5 % Northern Euro (peaks in Swedes)
10.2% East-Euro Finnic (peaks in Finns)
4.4% Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians)

Maciamo
31-07-11, 17:10
Forget about haplogroups. SW Scottish at Eurogenes have the following autosomal percentages, labels are arbitrary :

56.6 % North-Atlantic (peaks in Irish)
27.5 % Northern Euro (peaks in Swedes)
10.2% East-Euro Finnic (peaks in Finns)
4.4% Balto-Slavic (peaks in Lithuanians)

If North-Atlantic means Celtic, then it matches my estimate through haplogroups exactly. As for the rest, Germanic people are indeed an admixture of Northern European, East European and Balto-Slavic. Even the 8.5% of R1a is pretty close from 10% of East European.

Wilhelm
31-07-11, 17:25
If North-Atlantic means Celtic, then it matches my estimate through haplogroups exactly. As for the rest, Germanic people are indeed an admixture of Northern European, East European and Balto-Slavic. Even the 8.5% of R1a is pretty close from 10% of East European.
North-Atlantic has this ranking :

Irish 64.6
SW Scots 56.6
Cornwall 56.1
UK 44.2
Kent 41.6
Spain 39.3
France 37.6
Portugal 37
Austria 30

Knovas
01-08-11, 21:41
I also think that the North Atlantic cluster is what genetically matches better the Celts. Interesting to see Spain with more North Atlantic than France, and Portugal it's almost the same as France. I think that probably with more samples the French would become more Celtic in average, but it's also interesting to note there are several individuals in Spain with 56 % of North Atlantic, wich is very high considering the averages.

Reinaert
01-08-11, 21:53
Hmm.. Maybe it's a good idea to make a difference between the Highlands and the Lowlands of Scotland.
The Lowlands are more influenced by Germanic tribes, while the Highlands stayed Celtic.

sparkey
01-08-11, 22:08
North-Atlantic has this ranking :

Irish 64.6
SW Scots 56.6
Cornwall 56.1
UK 44.2
Kent 41.6
Spain 39.3
France 37.6
Portugal 37
Austria 30

SW Scots is an interesting choice for a sample, and could help us understand the admixture we expect from Brythonic populations, as SW Scotland is the traditionally Brythonic bit. Not surprisingly, they seem to be closest to the (also Brythonic) Cornish using this dataset (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRUVWFTbktrX01QWkZzYmhjR1FUN VE&hl=en_US#gid=0) (are you using a different one, Wilhelm?):

Southeast Baltic/Northern European/North Atlantic/East or North Eurasian/Sub-Saharan African/Southern European/Western European
Irish: 2/27/52/0/0/1/18
SW Scots: 4/30/48/0/0/0/17
Cornish: 2/29/48/0/0/4/17
Kentish: 4/40/35/0/0/5/16
Dutch: 5/45/29/0/0/10/10

Although Celtic and Germanic peoples both seem to display high levels of both Northern European and North Atlantic components, it seems clear that, at least when looking at the British Isles, North Atlantic = more Celtic and Northern European = more Germanic. It's actually quite interesting how exact the match is between SW Scots and their fellow traditional Brythonic peoples in Cornwall, with the major difference being more Southern European influence in Cornwall.

Making a table from most to least Celtic using the above, we have: Irish > SW Scots = Cornish > Kentish > Dutch. Which is pretty much expected. I expect Northern Scots to be less similar to the Cornish and more similar to the Irish, who are close by to begin with.

SE Scotland may be a different story, though...

Wilhelm
01-08-11, 22:56
SW Scots is an interesting choice for a sample, and could help us understand the admixture we expect from Brythonic populations, as SW Scotland is the traditionally Brythonic bit. Not surprisingly, they seem to be closest to the (also Brythonic) Cornish using this dataset (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRUVWFTbktrX01QWkZzYmhjR1FUN VE&hl=en_US#gid=0) (are you using a different one, Wilhelm?):

Southeast Baltic/Northern European/North Atlantic/East or North Eurasian/Sub-Saharan African/Southern European/Western European
Irish: 2/27/52/0/0/1/18
SW Scots: 4/30/48/0/0/0/17
Cornish: 2/29/48/0/0/4/17
Kentish: 4/40/35/0/0/5/16
Dutch: 5/45/29/0/0/10/10


I was using the latest EU7c, yours is EU7b, but anyways the patterns are pretty much the same.

barbarian
02-08-11, 14:17
Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T)


is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?

Taranis
02-08-11, 15:10
is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?

"Middle Eastern" is such a foggy term in my opinion. G2a probably originated in either Anatolia or the Caucasus, however. It's clear though that it did not originate in the Fertile Crescent or the Levante.

DavidCoutts
22-08-11, 00:07
You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx?vgroup=Scottishdna&vgroup=Scottishdna&section=yresults). It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?:thinking:

Knovas
22-08-11, 00:17
The best option is to participate in admixture projects. As somebody noted above, Eurogenes gives a good idea about the Celtic background taking the North Atlantic cluster as reference.

It's the best you can do, since we can't know who was the first ancestor reflected in the Y-DNA marker (going back thousands of years ago).

DavidCoutts
22-08-11, 00:46
Eurogenes -forgive my ignorance, but is that a company like 23andMe or FTDNA?

Knovas
22-08-11, 00:54
No, it's a genetic project managed by Davidski (Polish). He uses the raw data provided, for example, at 23andme, and interprets your allele frequencies into different clusters. The same as Dodecad.

Here is the blog where the results appear (different analyses): http://bga101.blogspot.com/

tjlowery87
05-11-13, 18:44
so scotlands is more Germanic than England???????????

tjlowery87
06-11-13, 01:04
Scotland r1b u106 is 12% its 20% in England.i1 is 15 % in England and 9% scotland

adamo
06-11-13, 17:30
I1 is Nordic/Scandinav not Germanic. R-S21 is Celtic of the Germanic variety; English, Germans, Austrians, Danes ; they're all more Germanic than the scots and certainly much more than the Irish. Now to answer the original question, how Celtic are the Scottish people, the answer is VERY Celtic, as their R1b percentages are about 75% if I'm not mistaken.

sparkey
06-11-13, 18:01
I1 is Nordic/Scandinav not Germanic.

What makes you think that? Especially in the context of Britain, there's a lot more continuity between most local I1 and continental I1 than there is with Scandinavian I1 (with the exception of genetic outliers like Orkney).


R-S21 is Celtic of the Germanic variety

What does this even mean?

tjlowery87
06-11-13, 20:48
sparkey,what do you think the difference is in the Germanic dna between scotland and England?

sparkey
06-11-13, 23:24
sparkey,what do you think the difference is in the Germanic dna between scotland and England?

One of the most detectable differences between Celtic and Germanic populations are their relative I1 frequencies (much higher in Germanic populations). So, taking the I1 ratio between the constituent countries should give us a pretty good idea of their relative Germanic input. For England : Scotland : Wales, we end up with something like a 6 : 4 : 3 ratio, so England is about 1.5 times as Germanic as Scotland, and about twice as Germanic as Wales. Of course, there are complexities. Scotland may be overstated there because it presumably has a higher North Germanic to West Germanic ratio, and North Germanic peoples have a higher internal I1 ratio. Wales may also be overstated there because they have a unique, apparently non-Germanic I1 subclade. But it's still probably a decent estimate.

tjlowery87
06-11-13, 23:44
thank you sparkey

adamo
07-11-13, 03:02
Most frequently I1 indicates Viking presence. What does what I said even mean? R-S21 is part of the indo-European family (R1a,R1b) inside the indo-European family there is a group called Celtic, and inside the Celtic group there are Italo-celts and Germanics. R-S21 is found in Germanic countries (Germany,Austria,Denmark,England) where these people migrated.

adamo
07-11-13, 03:03
The movements of I1a and R-S21 people's for most of history were independent of each other; two different branches with ultimately different origins.

MOESAN
07-11-13, 20:12
[QUOTE=Maciamo;376871]You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx?vgroup=Scottishdna&vgroup=Scottishdna&section=yresults). It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.


There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

sorry, Maciamo: maybe this post of yours is old now and I'm late, but where did you pick that R-L21 was found in the same proportions in the Netherlands and Scandinavia than R-U106!?!

MOESAN
07-11-13, 20:26
Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -

MOESAN
07-11-13, 20:35
Most frequently I1 indicates Viking presence. What does what I said even mean? R-S21 is part of the indo-European family (R1a,R1b) inside the indo-European family there is a group called Celtic, and inside the Celtic group there are Italo-celts and Germanics. R-S21 is found in Germanic countries (Germany,Austria,Denmark,England) where these people migrated.

it seems intuitively evident Adamo, but things are a bit more complicated (sometimes, by chance, not always!!!): by example, Y-I1 is very strong in Angles and Saxons areas of Eastern England (about 25 to 33%) and far less important in Scotland where Vikings take foot as we know by a lot of historical, genetical, cultural data): but it seems that in some british lands taken by Vikings, thses last ones where the result of a drift pulling down the Y-I1 % in favour of Y-R1a and even Y-Q (surveys about the Presqu'Isle in front of Liverpool (Orrell?); even in Scotland the history of Viking settlements is diverse, big differences between Hebrides and Orcades-Shetland and Caithness (male domination with high Y-I1 in Hebrides, poor viking females impact, more females impact in Orkney/Shetlands but less males impact...)

tjlowery87
07-11-13, 22:38
Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??

Jackson
08-11-13, 00:36
Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??

I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).

Jackson
08-11-13, 00:38
you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -

It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/l21-north-wales.jpg

tjlowery87
08-11-13, 03:21
I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).

is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?

Jackson
08-11-13, 12:22
is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?

The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.

MOESAN
08-11-13, 13:43
It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/l21-north-wales.jpg

your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
thanks beforehand
&: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...

Jackson
08-11-13, 19:18
your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
thanks beforehand
&: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...

It was apparently from a Welsh tv program, in which they tested people both sides of the border, i do not have the name of this tv program, but i will look for it soon. I would expect it to be at least a reasonably reliable source given that it's being shown on TV, if i can find the academics behind it i will.

Ahh yeah if you are talking about autosomal dna i agree. I guess it makes sense that the female 'imports' would be mostly apparent in the areas of primary settlement and regions that were Anglo-Saxon during the period over which this migration took place. And the men may have moved a bit more during the secondary phase where the west was conquered/colonized from the eastern territories rather than directly from abroad.

Although the 'big red blob' in POBI does extent to an area close to the Welsh borders, these regions that are about 20-25% in L21 look to correspond with areas in which the genetic cluster is between the big red cluster and the Welsh clusters. There was a fair bit of Welsh settlement in these parts of England in the medieval period and also the border was very fluid for a long time, so it's not surprising that this area is an intermediary between the Welsh and central England.

It's certainly true in my family, my grandmother is noticeably more western than the rest of my family, and about half of her ancestry is from western areas of England (Cheshire and Devon).

tjlowery87
09-11-13, 18:57
The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.what is 15%?togethers they equal 35% in England not counting any thing else.

adamo
09-11-13, 19:29
Being extreme west Europeans, it is no surprise that the scots are among the most Celtic people's culturally and genetically. R1b is present at 70-80% average around here and this is tremendous genetic proof of this. Other extremely Celtic nations are Ireland (85-90%) R1b, Wales (80-85%), England (75-80%), Spain (65-75%), France (60-70%), Belgium (65%), holland (65%), Portugal (60%), Switzerland (50%), Germany and Italy have similar frequencies to Switzerland as well. Frequencies drop to 25-30% towards the extreme north (Norway,Sweden) (not present in Finland) in southern Italy and towards eastern Germany on the polish border. In Austria, for example, a country with Germanic history, R1b can still be found at 30-40%; same for the Czech Republic. Croatia though only has 15%; same for Greece, Poland, Romania, Hungary (15-20%), it's found in less Serbs and Russians or Finns (5-10%). Unlike most people's beliefs about 2/5 Danes are R1b positive (35-40%).

tjlowery87
09-11-13, 19:41
r1b-u106 is 20% in England.......its not celtic

adamo
09-11-13, 19:48
Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.

adamo
09-11-13, 19:51
So if we want to analyze the British isles R1b samples for example; we find a mix of Germanic (R-S21) and Italo-Celtic (P312) R1b; with England having the highest Germanic component and the Irish having the most L-21 derived lineages (the youngest of the Italo-Celtic branch).

adamo
09-11-13, 19:53
I've always believed the older Germanics occupied/expanded from the Germany/holland/austria (u-106 is much younger there) central continental European Germanic celts. Whereas the Italo-celtic subclades initially expanded from northern Spain/ southern France towards Spain,France,north Italy, Ireland etc.

adamo
09-11-13, 19:55
The Italo-Celtic strain used Iberia as an initial expansion point (Cantabrian refuge); the Germanics may have too for all I know but the Italo-celts certainly did.

tjlowery87
09-11-13, 20:21
r1b df19 and r1bl238 are believe to come to the isles with Germanic as well

Jackson
09-11-13, 20:37
Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.

That is a contradiction and also a broad, inccorect statement.
And R1b extends over many areas that were not Celtic, and some Celtic areas in what is now eastern Europe have relatively little R1b. And of course i doubt the R1b in Africa is Celtic.

I thought we'd moved away from the R1b = Celtic thinking. And you must also acknowledge that there are significant variations between the types of R1b carried by Celtic speaking groups, and often overlap between other areas that are culturally and linguistically different.

tjlowery87
09-11-13, 21:43
im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic

Jackson
09-11-13, 23:27
im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic

If you include the whole of England, although the core south-east, east and central are around 55% on average.

tjlowery87
10-11-13, 02:50
was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??

Jackson
10-11-13, 03:24
was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??

Some of it yeah, and many settled in the lowlands further north at a later point too.

adamo
10-11-13, 11:28
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.

Jackson
10-11-13, 17:33
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.

Yep, although it varies by region in all case, i don't know much about the variation in the Netherlands other than it goes up to 42% in Frisia and is also pretty high in the south too. In central England it's about 19%, and about 25-26% in the east and south-east. This fits with the idea that much of East Anglia and Kent had a fair representation of Frisians (their local customs and farming practices show a lot of similarity with Frisian customs in particular, more-so than other areas).

adamo
10-11-13, 19:14
I agree; good analysis.

MOESAN
10-11-13, 22:03
just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
Y-R1b-U106:
North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
compared to other regions
North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
North Wales 9,2%
North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
&: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -

adamo
10-11-13, 22:06
20% u-152 in north-east Scotland??? Are you sure? I know southern England can have 10-20% u-152 but wow I didn't know that; must be a particular spot in Scotland cause u-152 is generally rare on the British isles.

MOESAN
10-11-13, 22:08
I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)

tjlowery87
10-11-13, 23:35
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.when I was talking about England 40%germanic,i was including i1.

Jackson
11-11-13, 00:17
I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)

Yeah i agree with that. The only possibly Germanic origin for any amount of U152 would be the Salian Franks. While Kent shows strong affinities with the Franks, it also was an area of settlement for Belgic tribes and lies opposite an area of high U152 on the continent. So i would bet that most - but probably not all - U152 is from Belgic/Gaulish sources. Romans are a possibility, but like you say the Romans that were stationed here were fairly diverse.

Sile
11-11-13, 00:34
From what I read and seen recently, the Scots where the last to become Celtic.
history says all Scotland was pictland, then after the romans left Britain, the gaels from Ireland landed and established a homeland in western Scotland, eventually the Gaels and picts united around 950AD and it was then that the term Scot was born.

tjlowery87
11-11-13, 02:49
so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

Nobody1
11-11-13, 10:58
so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

For the Bavarian (Bairische/Bajuwarische) areas;

Rebala et al 2013 -
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf
Bavaria (218 samples):
I-M253 = 16.9% / R1b-U106 = 21.1% / R1a-M17 = 12.3%
R1b-U152 = 10.0% / R1b-L21 = 1.3% / R1b-SRY2627 = 0.9%
R1b-P312* = 6.8%

Niederstätter et al 2012 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885#pone.0 041885.s013
East Tyrol (270 samples):
I-M253 = 15.9% / R1b-U106 = 18.8% / R1a-M17 = 14.0%
R1b-U152 = 12.5% / R1b-P312* = 2.9%

Erhart et al 2012 -
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-012-0751-1?LI=true
Tyrol REUTTE District (261 samples):
I-M253 = 10.5% / R1b-U106 = 20.9% / R1a-M17 = 7.8%
R1b-U152 = 12.4% / R1b-M269* = 13.6%

The only substantial Keltic lineage in the Bavarian (Bajuwarische/Bairische) areas is R1b-U152 and that at ~10-12% with the Germanic lineage of R1b-U106 being ~20%; I would like to see some data that compares Bavaria (Franconia) north of the Danube with Bavaria (Schwaben/Altbayern/Regensburg) south of the Danube;

It also depends on who exactly the the Germanic Bajuwaren were; Most Germanic peoples of the Migration era were in fact a confederation of numerous remnant tribes of the given areas;

adamo
11-11-13, 11:01
Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.

adamo
11-11-13, 11:04
The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).

Nobody1
11-11-13, 14:39
The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).

Its not that surprising;
for example in the year 488 AD - Odoaker after defeating the Rugier - urged all Provincials of Noricum (Kelts/Romano-Kelts) to cross the Alps into Italy (into His/Odoakers Kingdom); So the Keltic lineages of the Norici/Taurisci is no longer to be found in its quantity in the modern-day area of former Noricum which was than later settled by Germanics and Slavs (Slavs/Avars); Its simply due to the course of History;

Also the Germanic tribes of the Migration era subjugated the local provincial Romanic (Romano-Kelts) pops. and dragged them along in their further migrations and destinations; As recorded by the Germanic Langobarden when they settled Gallia Cisalpina;

Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum - Book II/XXVI
Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind

There was a lot of Turmoil and Population movements/displacements during the Hun invasion and Germanic migration eras; Especially border provinces like Raetia, Pannonia and Noricum need a very close look;

East Tyrol was part of ancient Noricum and is in modern-day:
12.5% U152 and 18.8% U106 - Niederstätter et al 2013 (270 samples)
Bavaria (south of the Danube) was part of ancient Raetia (Vindelici) and is in modern-day:
10.0% U152 and 21.1% U106 - Rebala et al 2013 (218 samples)

Both of course in modern times Germanic [Bajuwaren (Bairisch/Oberdeutsch)] areas;

Jackson
11-11-13, 15:43
just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
Y-R1b-U106:
North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
compared to other regions
North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
North Wales 9,2%
North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
&: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -

Hmm that's interesting, thanks for sharing. I didn't realise it went up to 29% in East Anglia, i guess that is most likely to do with Frisians, given the cultural similarities.

tjlowery87
11-11-13, 16:02
I didn't realize u106 that high across England,are there any surveys of i1 distribution acorss England?

Jackson
11-11-13, 16:04
so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

Well it's difficult to say because the haplogroups of the Celts in lowland Britain were very different from those in Celtic southern Germany, and i think the latter also had more of some other groups like E and things - And it also has a Slavic element that Britain doesn't really have.
If one is to trust Maciamo's map then England is roughly as Germanic as an area that pretty much goes from the the mouth of the Rhine down it's eastern extent into central-western Germany, so i guess Northwest and West Central Germany and the southern Netherlands and Flanders. However, in terms of autosomal DNA, because the Celts in lowland Britain were more similar genetically to the northern Germans than those in many areas of Central Europe that became German, that is partly why we are genetically closer to those people than say, the Austrians. But our closest relatives today are the Dutch, and they are a mix of Frisians, Saxons and Franks for the most part. Whereas we are mainly a mix Angles, Saxons, Frisians, Britons, Belgic Gauls (in areas of the south-east) with also some smaller Jutish and Frankish elements.

tjlowery87
11-11-13, 16:09
thanks for your help jackson

tjlowery87
11-11-13, 16:10
and thanks to every one else

adamo
12-11-13, 02:22
English and Bavarians would not have had very different haplogroups; the English have 70-75% R1b and about 45-50% of southern Germans are R1b as well. England has 15% hg I1 whereas southern Germany has 10%. R1a is about 10% in southern Germany (4-5% England or slightly less) and there is 7-8% of both E3b and G. All other haplogroups are found at very low frequencies in both countries.

adamo
12-11-13, 02:23
They actually share much genetic similarity; but are obviously not the same nation; Neolithic haplogroups are literally a tad higher in southern Germany, not to mention slightly inflated R1a,G and E3b levels.

adamo
12-11-13, 02:24
Nearing the 8-10% for those hg's.

Jackson
12-11-13, 04:39
Well it's difficult to say because the haplogroups of the Celts in lowland Britain were very different from those in Celtic southern Germany, and i think the latter also had more of some other groups like E and things - And it also has a Slavic element that Britain doesn't really have.
If one is to trust Maciamo's map then England is roughly as Germanic as an area that pretty much goes from the the mouth of the Rhine down it's eastern extent into central-western Germany, so i guess Northwest and West Central Germany and the southern Netherlands and Flanders. However, in terms of autosomal DNA, because the Celts in lowland Britain were more similar genetically to the northern Germans than those in many areas of Central Europe that became German, that is partly why we are genetically closer to those people than say, the Austrians. But our closest relatives today are the Dutch, and they are a mix of Frisians, Saxons and Franks for the most part. Whereas we are mainly a mix Angles, Saxons, Frisians, Britons, Belgic Gauls (in areas of the south-east) with also some smaller Jutish and Frankish elements.

Why so much hate on this post lol?

adamo
12-11-13, 12:28
You claimed that England and southern German genetics were "very different" for starters

Jackson
12-11-13, 15:10
You claimed that England and southern German genetics were "very different" for starters

No i claimed that the Celtic y-DNA in both areas is different, in Britain it is mainly L21, with some U152 and P312 (non L21 and U152).

In terms of autosomal DNA, they are quite different, as southern Germany and Austria are more central European and Britain more NW European.

adamo
12-11-13, 16:56
There's much more R-S21 in England (20-25%) than there is R-S28 (maybe 8-10%) and P312 in it's most basal form is even rarer. R-l21 is present in 35-40% of British males I would say but this is nothing to Ireland's 65-85% range I would say and Irish also have very high M222 of course

adamo
12-11-13, 16:58
You are once more incorrect; R-L21 is the one that is still present at 30-40% across England and R-S28 is extremely rare but present (10%), P312 is even rarer and he Germanic R-S21 is found at 20-25%.

Jackson
12-11-13, 17:24
You are once more incorrect; R-L21 is the one that is still present at 30-40% across England and R-S28 is extremely rare but present (10%), P312 is even rarer and he Germanic R-S21 is found at 20-25%.

Well R1b-L21 only goes up to around 20-25% at the Welsh border, and drops to 10-15% in East and South-East England, and 15-20% in Central England. U152 and P312 are pretty well represented in the areas where R1b-L21 is low, though. Although L21 is around 30-40% in NW and SW England.

adamo
12-11-13, 19:38
U152 never increases above 15% in the southernmost strip of the country.

adamo
12-11-13, 21:57
Everywhere else in england the u152 is at even lower percentages; S116* isn't present either! albeit at extremely low frequencies.

Sile
12-11-13, 22:53
Why so much hate on this post lol?

Jackson to jackson.....are you talking to yourself?

Jackson
13-11-13, 03:38
Jackson to jackson.....are you talking to yourself?

No i was just asking a question of other posters, referring to a post i made.

MOESAN
13-11-13, 23:50
From what I read and seen recently, the Scots where the last to become Celtic.
history says all Scotland was pictland, then after the romans left Britain, the gaels from Ireland landed and established a homeland in western Scotland, eventually the Gaels and picts united around 950AD and it was then that the term Scot was born.

Scotti of ireland or modern Scots?: it is necessery not confuse the two concepts -
BUT WHY Scotland would have been the last celtized? the last of who?
yet Scotland was not Pictland at ancient times (the name Pict seemingly arose late enough, and from what we know, Picts WERE Celts or at least celtic speaking - the name of a lot of tribes of North Scotland during and before Romans times were celtic (even there was a Cornovii settlement far North in Caithness) - and the Galloway SW Scotland region, before being gaelicized was cumbrian (brittonic) speaking - just for precisions -

adamo
14-11-13, 01:28
And thus nobody gave two f_ _ _ _ about genetics today! XD

Tomenable
07-09-14, 15:24
You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

I2b Germanic ??? BTW - why do you think that 100% of I1 and 100% of R1b-U106 was Germanic? Maybe some of it was Celtic ???

Large parts of continental Germanic groups are themselves descendants of Non-Germanic populations assimilated / absorbed into Germanic-speakers.

So how do you count - for example - a Germanized Gallo-Roman who migrated to Britain? Do you count such guys as Germanic ???

MichaelOH
25-09-14, 22:37
I suppose that the Scottish referendum will shift the focus back to R1b rule in the European Union with bigger fish to fry, as virtually all male European royalty of this type. Celt is a late historical designation applied first by the Greeks in relation to their barbarian neighbors to the north and west.

FalkirkEagle
12-12-14, 07:04
How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

Sile
12-12-14, 07:49
How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots

sparkey
12-12-14, 09:01
How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

As you're probably quite aware, the Celticity of the Scots depends greatly on the region of Scotland they are from, and even the type of Celtic that makes them up the most (Gaelic or Brythonic) depends on the region. However, as a rule of thumb, Scots are pretty reliably in-between the English and the Welsh in terms of amount of Celtic genetics. I've seen that pattern generally in Y-DNA distributions, full-genome proxy analyses (People of the British Isles and similar), and component-based autosomal analyses (like Eurogenes). Even with all that data, though, it's tough to narrow in on a percentage or anything like that.


Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

No idea what your surname is, but it's definitely possible for a surname to have multiple derivations. If your line is from the Scottish Lowlands, your surname might not be a good indicator one way or another.


From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Northeastern England clusters more closely to SW Scotland and Cumbria than it does to East Anglia, though. The English/Scottish border shares a lot of culture and genetics across both sides of the border.

Also, Ibero-Celtic tribes? I'd say Brythonic Celtic tribes, mostly, like the Selgovae and so forth. Of course, surnames came long after the Classical era tribes.


In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

I would put pretty much zero stock into results from Connect my DNA. They're not well regarded (http://legalgenealogist.com/blog/2012/04/01/a-dna-test-not-to-bother-with/).


In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

This is a much better idea. Keep us posted.

sparkey
12-12-14, 09:02
according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots

So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

Sile
12-12-14, 10:17
So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC

Aberdeen
12-12-14, 14:59
So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

What about some of the earlier names on the Pictish king list? Do they not appear to be non-Celtic and in fact non-IE in some cases? Perhaps the Picts of the historical period, were a blend of Brythonic and earlier non-IE influences.

As for Scottish surnames, I think they can sometimes be an unreliable guide to ancestry in the case of people who came into conflict with the government - some people changed their name because a sept or clan was proscribed. However, there are also lots of cases where a surname is a good guide to ancestry - it depends on which surname we're talking about.

Taranis
12-12-14, 19:06
how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC

The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.

Sile
12-12-14, 19:32
The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.

ok

so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )

Greying Wanderer
13-12-14, 08:24
I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
By birds?

birds in kayaks hunting seals and catching fish

http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/physical-map-of-eurasia/cover_geograph55.eps/image_original

Taranis
13-12-14, 13:52
ok

so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )

Pictones spoke Vasconic, because they lived in Aquitania? Who says so? I said before in other threads, Romans were horrible ethnographers and the boundaries of the Roman provinces did not correspond with ethnic boundaries. The approximate boundary between Gaulish and Aquitanian (Old Basque) was the the bank of the river Garonne. The Pictones (around Poitiers) clearly lived north of the Garonne:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/MapGaronne.jpg

Diviacus
13-12-14, 15:25
If we assume that the name of the Picts has been given by the Romans (what I believe), the Pictones are not related to the Picts. However their name would come from the same IE root, which means "those who are painted", which could be also the meaning of the name of the Pictavi (in Iberia).

UltraViolence
11-03-15, 10:24
Scotland is probably the most heavily mixed Germanic-Celtic nation in the entire British isles.

throughout the entire nation this is true


all DNA studies show the population of the Lowlands are heavily mixed with Celtic and Germanic genetics from earlier times.

there is even a gradient between Eastern Lowlands, with higher Germanic types and SW Lowlands with higher historical Celtic lineages

but the Celtic lines are still fairly high in the East too.

The popultion is basically evenly mixed with Celtic and Germanic genes/ancestry


same can be said of the Highlands too. History and genetics show a majority of highlanders have heavily mied Norse (Germanic) and Celtic ancestry.

also, the typical Irish Y-DNA in Scotland, R1b-M222 is only moderate throughout the whole country, even I the western Isles, the pre-Gaelic R1b-L21, Scot's Modal is much more common and is very typical of all Scottish people even in the Lowlands.

it actually has the heaviest concentration in the Central Belt ad close to Glasgow.

this I the oldest R1b-L21 clad in Scotland and is just common among Lowlanders too, but so are other Celtic types though to typically come from a Brythonic/Cumbric speaking Celtic population in the Lowlands from earlier times.

if you look at the charts on this website for R1b-L21 maps and R1b-U106 and I1a and even R1b-S28 its clear that the Lowlands are heavily mixed with both Germanic and Celtic DNA and so are the Highlands.

going by genetic studies, Lowlanders have a lot f mixed Anglo-Celtic/Bernician-Celtic ancestry especially when compared to population of southern England, but also the Highlands have a lot f heavy Germanic-Celtic genetic mixture too, especially when compared to the genetic studies of Ireland and Wales.

Highland and Lowland culture has nothing to do with it.
Both Old Scots and Gaelic arrived in Scotland abut th same time, 4-5-6th century AD, so no one can say one is more or less Scottish than the other.Plus, again, the most common Y-DNA type n the highlands is that from the pre-Gaelic speaking Celtic people as well as being the most common type in the western Lowlands too

ad most experts think the Picts, who were just essentially native Britons who still painted/tattooed their bodies after the other Britons had stopped the practice, spoke a P-Celtic language but more similar to Old Gaulish than to Old British.

as for culture and genes, most Highlanders especially in the western Isles and Northern Isles come from greatly mixed Galloglass/Norse-Gaelic ancestry/genetic legacy and even in the Lowlands too where some people in Galloway still spoke Gaelic in the 1600's.


Scotland both Highland Lowland is the most heavily or evenly mixed Germanic-Celtic population in the British Isles.

plus there's been 3 major Celtic speaking populations who made their mark there in pre ad post Roman times which can still be easily seen today in terms of genetic ancestry and there's been 2 major Germanic speaking populations who also made their mark which again can still be easily seen today in Scotland and there's not one area of Scotland or it's people that has been largely untouched by that, whether Bernician or Viking-Norse.

the only major difference is, the Gaelic invaders from Ireland became the dominant culture/language of the Highlands, even if not the dominant genetic legacy, but only because a Pictish prince was brought up in ancient Ulster where it safer for him at the time , and then brought that culture with him when he went back to Scotland/Pictland to reclaim his throne .


and the Bernicians, largely mixed with the native Cumbric population of the Lowlands after gaining control of the region but also the Britons of Strathclyde in the western Lowlands remained a strong kingdom/people until almost the time of the Norman Conquest in England.

plus in the later stages of that kingdom an that area they were being mixed with Gaelic Scots and speaking a mixture of Cumbric and Gaelic when the Bernicians of the Lothians finally took over control of the western lowlands an then eventually Old Scots became the dominant language.

but in places like Galloway they largely resisted their influence for a long time and again part of the population there even spoke Gaelic until the 1600's.


Scotland and its people are heavily mixed with Germanic and Celtic ancestry but like any other place or country/nation in the British isles it also depends on where you go in Scotland because different areas have their own unique or different history and population movements/people

plus I don't think seriously truly know just how many surnames with a Celtic or Gaelic origin became heavily anglicized in later times for so many reasons.

and th fact that the language of the Picts became Gaelicized
even though it was extremely rare,sometimes surnames even became Gaelicized in the Lowlands in places like Galloway

but also many Highland Families or Clans took their name from or were named after a person, from Old Norse or a Viking warrior nd from the Picts too

Vikings /Norse warriors always mixed and became part of the larger native culture in the places they went.

they did it in Ireland and England too but they didn't leave much a genetic/DNA legacy in the Irish but they left a huge genetic/DNA legacy in Scottish people, while adopting Gaelic/Celtc culture and intermarrying heavily with them, both Highland and Lowland, the did the exact same in England wth Engish people too

FalkirkEagle
27-03-15, 03:12
I recently got my FTDNA 37-marker test results back and they show that I belong to the R1b-M269 (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype). I realize you can't do much with just 37 markers, but since several people who share my surname and belong to the same surname project have tested as R-L21, I thought I would go looking for typical R1b-L21 markers. In my searches, I came across a page devoted to something called The Little Scottish Cluster and found the markers posted there and compared with typical markers for the Little Scottish Cluster.

It turns out that most of the markers I have match the typical markers for R-L21, so I've got a strong suspicion now that I'm possibly L21 in terms of a terminal SNP subgroup.

It is interesting to note that most of my distant genetic matches in M269 are coming in from the midwesterly part of southern England, Wales and even Germany, with only 67 matches from Scotland. The presence of matches in these three areas seems to be consistent with the expected migration pattern of R-L21 in Britain, given that the subgroup is believed to have emerged in the Celtic areas of southwestern Germany.

I'm going to be ordering a 67-marker test and a L21 test from FTDNA to nail down my hypothesis a little more conclusively.

RobertColumbia
25-07-15, 20:55
My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?:thinking:

Check for downstream mutations. For example, if you have M222, your y-DNA is almost certainly Celtic.

EAB
09-09-15, 13:14
I am quite sure there was a massive migration of English up into Scotland at one point, which would have been after the influence of Denmark and the Anglo Saxons, into the Lowlands. There was also a large amount of migration between Flanders and Netherlands for the weaving industry. There is a "Belgium Origin" club for DNA and ancestry interested people from Scotland, with names like Flemming being taken as signs of Belgium heritage.

JohnnieMc73
16-09-15, 20:56
according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots

Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surely the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?

JohnnieMc73
16-09-15, 21:06
So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

The Picts were a mix of various Brythonic tribes, just separated from the Romanised tribes further south and west.. who as you suggest would also have been Celtic.

JohnnieMc73
16-09-15, 21:08
Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.

Where is the evidence for this?

RobertColumbia
18-09-15, 04:15
Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surly the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?

I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.

JohnnieMc73
21-09-15, 21:31
I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.
Maybe Robert... I am not denying the Gaelic presence in Scotland but rather that it may have been present for a long before the 5th century and that the people of Argyll and the Hebrides shared cultural and genetic heritige with Northern Ireland. There is no archaeological or placename evidence of a migration or invasion so it is more likely that people had been travelling back and forth in both directions for a long time.

redeyednewt
15-02-16, 08:05
I've read that most of the Scots are descendants from the Picts, and some are from the Celts? I have a Scottish heritage but I am not really sure about the origins of it.

RobertColumbia
16-02-16, 07:58
I've read that most of the Scots are descendants from the Picts, and some are from the Celts? I have a Scottish heritage but I am not really sure about the origins of it.

The Picts are generally understood to have been Celts, but not Gaels per se. Gaels are Celts that have historically spoken the Gaelic language, which belongs to a specific branch of the Celtic languages. The Gaelic presence and culture in Scotland is heavily linked to the Gaels of Ireland (in fact, as mentioned above, there appears to have been quite a bit of travel back and forth). The Gaelic-speaking kingdom of the Dal Riata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata) included parts of both land masses.

RobertColumbia
16-02-16, 08:02
The Picts are generally understood to have been Celts, but not Gaels per se. Gaels are Celts that have historically spoken the Gaelic language, which belongs to a specific branch of the Celtic languages. The Gaelic presence and culture in Scotland is heavily linked to the Gaels of Ireland (in fact, as mentioned above, there appears to have been quite a bit of travel back and forth). The Gaelic-speaking kingdom of the Dal Riata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata) included parts of both land masses.

Scots also have some (Germanic) Viking and Anglo-Saxon ancestry. The Germanic influence is greatest in the southeast of Scotland and in the Orkney and Shetland islands. Although it is not a perfect measurement tool (as exceptions can be found), it can generally be estimated that the areas of Scotland that have preserved Celtic languages the longest are likely to be the areas with the greatest amount of Celtic ancestry.

jamt
16-02-16, 14:18
the people of Argyll and the Hebrides shared cultural and genetic heritige with Northern Ireland. [/SIZE]


I know the paper research for my Scottish ancestry leads to Argyll for generations (Lochgoilhead, Tarbet, surrounding area), Campbell surname. I had my uncle's DNA tested, and his paternal grandfather was from Scotland. His haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2f*, and 23andme says:


Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a2f2 reaches its peak in Ireland, where the vast majority of men carry Y-chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup (https://www.23andme.com/you/haplogroup/paternal/#Haplogroup). Researchers have recently discovered that a large subset of men assigned to the haplogroup may be direct male descendants of an Irish king who ruled during the 4th and early 5th centuries. According to Irish history, a king named Niall of the Nine Hostages established the Ui Neill dynasty that ruled the island country for the next millennium.
Northwestern Ireland is said to have been the core of Niall's kingdom; and that is exactly where men bearing the genetic signature associated with him are most common. About 17% of men in northwestern Ireland have Y-chromosomes that are exact matches to the signature, and another few percent vary from it only slightly. In New York City, a magnet for Irish immigrants during the 19th and early 20th century, 2% of men have Y-chromosomes matching the Ui Neill signature. Genetic analysis suggests that all these men share a common ancestor who lived about 1,700 years ago. Among men living in northwestern Ireland today that date is closer to 1,000 years ago. Those dates neatly bracket the era when Niall is supposed to have reigned.
Outside Ireland, R1b1b2a1a2f2 is relatively common only along the west coast of Britain.

How would I go about looking for that M222 thing? I'm not too familiar with how to look at the raw data..

RobertColumbia
16-02-16, 18:24
I know the paper research for my Scottish ancestry leads to Argyll for generations (Lochgoilhead, Tarbet, surrounding area), Campbell surname. I had my uncle's DNA tested, and his paternal grandfather was from Scotland. His haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2f*, and 23andme says:



How would I go about looking for that M222 thing? I'm not too familiar with how to look at the raw data..

Open your 23AndMe raw data and look for the SNP Rs20321 (http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs20321). If you see an "A" there, then that is M222. If it is a G, then it is not.

jamt
16-02-16, 19:07
Nope, no M222 on the Scottish line.

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 21:37
If you want to talk originally the Scots are as Celtic as can be. They were Gaels and were the last Celtic tribe who were in northern Ireland before they set up the kingdom of Dal Riata in SW scotland. Both Irish Book of Invasions and the Scottish origin has them dwelling in Spain before coming to Ireland. And that history has been called just a myth. But haha look at history and the genomes It starts to become true scripture. The Scots even attribute origin to greater Scythia which can't even be refuted anymore, the proof is in the pudding. The thing.

Ed the Red
26-08-17, 21:50
It's over time they would've absorbed other genomes to make it what it is today i.e. Picts,Britons, angles, Vikings.

ROS
27-08-17, 01:59
In western Europe, people who have been little or nothing Romanized preserve an old culture that more than Celtic could be said atlantic, north of portugal, galicia, asturias, brittany, ireland, scotland and some other area in the British Isles preserve this old culture Atlantica, which is often called Celtic, but I believe that Celtic would not be the most correct since this denomination is being used excessively.

Ed the Red
27-08-17, 18:47
Yes but it would be better described as maybe an Atlantic branch of Celtic maybe. The problem with the Celts is that they were never unified. The areas that they inhabited at one time spread from Galatia in Anatolia to Galicia in Spain, to Galicia in Poland, and all the way to the British Isles. They were basically the first settlement of Indo European Nomadic warriors that spread into Europe and absolved whatever was there before. They were originally part of the great Scythian horde that swept into Europe. But just to be clear Scythia was just an area denoted by Greek historians, the number and size of all the different tribes will probably never be revealed. The fact of the matter is that they were conquerors and spread culture with them.

Ed the Red
27-08-17, 20:34
And the culture and language that was spread was basically different branches of celtic. The funny thing is if you ask a Scotsman if he's a Celt or Gael he'll probably yell Im a Scot!

Twilight
28-08-17, 05:14
And the culture and language that was spread was basically different branches of celtic. The funny thing is if you ask a Scotsman if he's a Celt or Gael he'll probably yell Im a Scot!
Probably depends on what region you are from. I personally consider myself Scots-Gealic/Brythonic; Brythonic because I have Englishmen in me also. My Great Grandpa Archibald MacDonald's (1920-1992) ancestors Immigrated to London from the Highlands.

Ed the Red
28-08-17, 18:45
Should be Gaelic/Brythonic/Germanic then if you have English or Anglo-Saxon in you. It's probably really rare to have a scot without Germanic in him anyway. Whether it's Anglo-Saxon or Viking, definitely depends on the region

Tomenable
28-08-17, 20:08
^^^ You forgot about Pictish ancestry.

Ed the Red
28-10-17, 04:59
Is there any new details on what the Picts were? They have certain DNA markers that signify them from all the other populations in Scotland, but from what I've read is they are most likely just a different branch of Celtic.

LeBrok
28-10-17, 05:39
Is there any new details on what the Picts were? They have certain DNA markers that signify them from all the other populations in Scotland, but from what I've read is they are most likely just a different branch of Celtic.There is no DNA identified as being from culturally celtic place, or as variety of celtic groups. Though Hinxton4 could have been, I'm not sure. I would guess, genetically they looked very close to modern Irish or Scotish. And if what I see is true, then it means that celtic genetics and probably language had beginning in Western Corded Ware.

MOESAN
28-10-17, 13:27
Yes but it would be better described as maybe an Atlantic branch of Celtic maybe. The problem with the Celts is that they were never unified. The areas that they inhabited at one time spread from Galatia in Anatolia to Galicia in Spain, to Galicia in Poland, and all the way to the British Isles. They were basically the first settlement of Indo European Nomadic warriors that spread into Europe and absolved whatever was there before. They were originally part of the great Scythian horde that swept into Europe. But just to be clear Scythia was just an area denoted by Greek historians, the number and size of all the different tribes will probably never be revealed. The fact of the matter is that they were conquerors and spread culture with them.

Typical Celts were not the first I-E reaching West Europe; language teach us they surely were an alpine specialisation of a western group influenced by older waves of I-E.s who after evolution left people speaking Northwest dialects (Benelux, later mixed with true Celts and some Germanics among the Belgae medley, maybe some descendants pre-Celts in Britain), Lusitanian and Ligurian and other gone dialects without written traces. I wonder if the celtic languages despite they are not the first ones, were not older than some so called celtic elites later come from Steppes with maybe new Eurasian people input, at least at Iron times (Hallstatt?)?
The Scythian story is maybe not completely clueless: some late influence not without a tiny genetic input? That said I doubt Scot name is issued from Scythe name, for phonetic reasons, but who can be sure? Perhaps Taranis could tell us something here?
The Celtic legends of Britain mix a North-African and Iberian journey with Scythes ancestors, apparently gallic-brythonic names of tribes and others; surely not completely false, but with unsure chronology at least...
the ratio gedrosia/caucasus componant in auDNA admixtures runs among Celts and Germans is interesting compared to other European people (I gained a high notoriety in other forums for my "naivety" n this subject) but the lack of east-asian input seem discarding recent Scythes; maybe only people of the western Steppes labelled 'Scythians' by mistake or generalisating assimilation?

Ed the Red
28-10-17, 18:27
The vast area of Scythia compared to the Scythians within in it are two different things, so a generalisation for sure. The Scots do t call themselves Scythians here is a excerpt from the Declaration of Arbroath
"They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.
So they don't denote them being Scythian, they just denote greater Scythia as being a place they journeyed from. This correlates exactly with the spread of the R1b haplogroup that the Scots/Irish are predominantly. The area of Scythia was a vast area around the black sea and was only given the name Scythia from Herodotus in the 7th century B.C.
So think how many tribes of Indo-Europeans had been flooding in from the steppes before 7th century B.C. The Scythians at that time were more related to Iranian they say. Another thing to note was the presence of Cimmerian's in that area which I've learned could've branched off much earlier with the oncoming presence of Scythians proper. The BBC actually did a t.v. series many years ago just called "Celts" and the Cimmerian's were mentioned as the forebearers of the Celts!
Hmmm interesting stuff but the proof is in the pudding and the pudding is blood pudding. The Scots/Irish know they came from the steppes!

Ed the Red
28-10-17, 18:29
I made an error at the top it's supposed to say the Scots DON'T call themselves Scythian.

MOESAN
29-10-17, 20:22
It's a bit aside but I often keep on reading here and there people making links between Cimmerians, Cymru and Cimbri; personally, aside the name of Cimbri which seems Celtic to me, I think Cimbri were of Celtic culture too, against the mainstream dogma. But I doubt Cimmerian name has something to do with Cymry from *Ken(m)-brogi, a late enough name (late at least in Britain where it seems being the name of a new aggregation of small tribes, on the model of the Franks who were a new grouping of Germanics); late name in Britain, but a tribe of Combrogi existed among Gauls.

Ed the Red
29-10-17, 20:28
There is no DNA identified as being from culturally celtic place, or as variety of celtic groups. Though Hinxton4 could have been, I'm not sure. I would guess, genetically they looked very close to modern Irish or Scotish. And if what I see is true, then it means that celtic genetics and probably language had beginning in Western Corded Ware.

Not sure I follow you, are you backing what this site has to say? Corded ware is related to R1a on this site and spread with Germanic branch. R1b is definitely a cetic haplogroup and survives predominantly in Celtic Britain with the L21 subclade.

Ed the Red
29-10-17, 20:39
Although at the start Germans and Celts were indistinguishable from each other.
The Picts were already in Scotland when the Romans were attacked by them. It makes sense that they would be related to the Britons but they possibly could have been an earlier settlement, there's much to learn and alot of testing to be done.

LeBrok
29-10-17, 21:18
Not sure I follow you, are you backing what this site has to say? Corded ware is related to R1a on this site and spread with Germanic branch. R1b is definitely a cetic haplogroup and survives predominantly in Celtic Britain with the L21 subclade.Forget about haplogroups, it is helpful but not in this case. It is only 2% of DNA and it is easily transferable to other ethnicities, being often misleading. We don't know yet where and how western type of R1b "exploded" in Europe. My educated guess is based on modern and ancient autosomal DNA.

Ed the Red
29-10-17, 22:01
It's a bit aside but I often keep on reading here and there people making links between Cimmerians, Cymru and Cimbri; personally, aside the name of Cimbri which seems Celtic to me, I think Cimbri were of Celtic culture too, against the mainstream dogma. But I doubt Cimmerian name has something to do with Cymry from *Ken(m)-brogi, a late enough name (late at least in Britain where it seems being the name of a new aggregation of small tribes, on the model of the Franks who were a new grouping of Germanics); late name in Britain, but a tribe of Combrogi existed among Gauls.

What I think the best hypothesis is that the melting of people and culture has never been an outright eradication of DNA, culture, or language, there will always be remnants in my opinion. So it wouldn't make sense to say the Celts were started by just one known group of people ie. Cimmerians, Scythians. But those groups indicate possible contributers to the Celtic culture, as well as DNA.
You being from Brittany must obviously have a Celtic presedence. Does everyone in Brittany have the same feeling of Celtic descendency?

Ed the Red
29-10-17, 23:32
Forget about haplogroups, it is helpful but not in this case. It is only 2% of DNA and it is easily transferable to other ethnicities, being often misleading. We don't know yet where and how western type of R1b "exploded" in Europe. My educated guess is based on modern and ancient autosomal DNA.

Aren't the Celts the obvious explanation of the explosion of R1b in europe? They were Conquering warriors that are known in history to have attacked everywhere and were masters of the iron age. The fact that they were so proficient in war leads again to the people of the steppes who were advanced in warfare

Ed the Red
30-10-17, 04:55
Place names, tribal names, are all indicative of remnants of past cultures and people. I've actually used the Cymry and Cimbri as an example of a relation to Cimmerian. After all isn't the Crimean peninsula an adaptation of Cimmerian?

firetown
30-10-17, 14:50
In the North Eastern part of Scotland, there is around 30% "Viking DNA".