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zanipolo
28-07-11, 11:38
How did the prussians evolve around the territory around Memel and the Vistula .
Where these Ancient prussians, Vandals or Goths that assimilated the Aestii, Venedi and Rugii and other baltic tribes?

Is there y-dna R1a or I

For a people that became great, from Teutonic knights to Frederick the Great, they seem to have no ancient history

zanipolo
30-08-11, 09:03
I have been reading a history of the lithuanians and it says that a tribe of lithuanians called Samogitians who originally where prussians that had originally been in ancient times a mix of Finni, Venedi and Gothic people. These prussians had a word for judge called - Kriwe which was used by finni and Venedi as well.

Are these lithaunians balts or finnic historically?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FKYgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA579&lpg=PA579&dq=samogitians+venedi&source=bl&ots=iil7oA1Ez3&sig=wmHTaFWFs8r5rPAmEFHvIE2_jb8&hl=en&ei=K4tcTpeQBrHKiAKMnpizBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=samogitians%20venedi&f=false

zanipolo
30-08-11, 09:04
I have been reading a history of the lithuanians and it says that a tribe of lithuanians called Samogitians who originally where prussians that had originally been in ancient times a mix of Finni, Venedi and Gothic people. These prussians had a word for judge called - Kriwe which was used by finni and Venedi as well.

Are these lithaunians balts or finnic historically?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FKYgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA579&lpg=PA579&dq=samogitians+venedi&source=bl&ots=iil7oA1Ez3&sig=wmHTaFWFs8r5rPAmEFHvIE2_jb8&hl=en&ei=K4tcTpeQBrHKiAKMnpizBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=samogitians%20venedi&f=false

Bodin
30-08-11, 10:28
Prussians were Balt nation ( like Lithuanians , Latvians , and most of today North Poland nations like Mazowians , Prussians ,... ) , they probably was descendants of Neuri tribe mentioned in Herodotus Historia , which were probably mostly R1a like all Scythians , and N1c Finni tribes they mixed with , and yes there is some I1 there so mixing with leftover Goths is very plausable. Vendi was probably name for same nations that were carrying name of Neuri and now are called Balts. I believe most of North and west Poland R1a and all N1c is from Balts and not from Slavs , also some R1a in Germany( rest is Germanic) and N1c could be Baltic.
Very interesting post indeed .:good_job:

Sile
04-09-11, 10:06
Maybe the N1C1 letts in Finland are the N1C1 prussians/estonians

Bodin
04-09-11, 19:27
Prussi and Estonians are not in same group of nations , Prussi , Mazuri , other nations of medieval North Poland together with Lithuanians and Latvians are Balts and speack Baltic languagues closest to Slavic, and Estonians , Finns , Lapi ( Saami) , and nations in Northwest Russia like Komi , Maari ,... are Ugro-Finnic and they speack Uralic languagues. All of Uralic speacking populations has high N1c . But Balts also has high N1c , it could be result of they move from south ( it is posble Balts are Neuri mentioned by Herodotus ), and mixing with previosly settled Uralic population.

Sile
05-09-11, 10:36
Prussi and Estonians are not in same group of nations , Prussi , Mazuri , other nations of medieval North Poland together with Lithuanians and Latvians are Balts and speack Baltic languagues closest to Slavic, and Estonians , Finns , Lapi ( Saami) , and nations in Northwest Russia like Komi , Maari ,... are Ugro-Finnic and they speack Uralic languagues. All of Uralic speacking populations has high N1c . But Balts also has high N1c , it could be result of they move from south ( it is posble Balts are Neuri mentioned by Herodotus ), and mixing with previosly settled Uralic population.

very interesting how the old prussians sit in exactly the same spot as the vistula venedi did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians

The hunter gathers would have moved south over time

Bodin
05-09-11, 22:28
I allready proposed somewhere ( not shore where, sorry ) , that Neuri , Venedi and Balts are one same group of nations , only Neuri would be they name in early antiquity( Herodotus time) , Venedi in late antiquity ( Tacitus time ) , and Balts in modern times . So yes I agree Prussi could be descedants of Venedi . What is also interesting about Venedi is that they culture abruptly disapear in IV century AD( Hunic invasion) , and then there is void that last allmoust full century untill in that aeria came Prague - Kolchak culture ( Slavic - Poles) , and new culture had less developed ironwork than Venedic.
Thanks for answering

Sile
06-09-11, 12:16
I allready proposed somewhere ( not shore where, sorry ) , that Neuri , Venedi and Balts are one same group of nations , only Neuri would be they name in early antiquity( Herodotus time) , Venedi in late antiquity ( Tacitus time ) , and Balts in modern times . So yes I agree Prussi could be descedants of Venedi . What is also interesting about Venedi is that they culture abruptly disapear in IV century AD( Hunic invasion) , and then there is void that last allmoust full century untill in that aeria came Prague - Kolchak culture ( Slavic - Poles) , and new culture had less developed ironwork than Venedic.
Thanks for answering

The slavs who settled in Mecklenburg between 700-900 AD where neighbours to another group of "Venedic", but this seemed to only be a way to gain some titles, example around the 12th century , a Swedish born princess , Voisclava married the norwegian king and tried to claim the title. Queen of the Venedic. She even used the bulls head ( mecklenburg symbol ) to say this represented the ancient Venedi, heruli people which came from Sweden.

In regard to prussians, I would be interested to find if the Skalvians where also baltic ..........or maybe old slavs

Bodin
07-09-11, 13:18
Germans in Midle Ages called nations east of them Wendi -Bodrici ( on coast of Baltic sea-sea was named after Balti ),Lyutici/Vilci ( south of Bodrici) , Pomeranians ( today in northwest Poland , up to II WW in Germany ) . It could be because nations were often called by ancient populations that use to live in that aeria , but it could be because they are Venedi . Procopius clasifies Veneti and Sclavines all like Sclavines , it is probably becouse of simillar languagues - Balt and Slavic are closest and Sarmatians ( Ants ) were by that time took Slavic languague.
There is very intriguing conection betwen Sarmati and Venedi -. Baltic sea in antic times was called Oceanus Saramathicus ( Sarmathian ocean ) , Vandals -who use to live in aeria of Venedi , and had same name - go in Spain with Alans ( Sarmathians) ,...
Bodrici formed strong Duchy called Wendic Duchy , they use to atack Saxonia and Denmark , latter they were conquered by Denmark and Denmark kings took title of kings of Wendi . Latter it was pased to kings of Sweden .

Dagne
08-10-11, 17:45
In regard to prussians, I would be interested to find if the Skalvians where also baltic ..........or maybe old slavs
Skalvians were one of the Western Baltic tribes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalvians
Their history is very similar to Old Prussian - after the Great Prussian Uprising, the Crusader could continue towards Skalvian lands and shortly Skalvians were subjugated by the Teutonic Order, and by the XIV century they lost their identity.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg)

Dagne
08-10-11, 17:49
Baltic tribes and their assimilated descendants in other nations have a lot of N1c1, however genetically this is a different branch of N1c1 as that in Finnic Nations.

zanipolo
08-10-11, 22:03
Baltic tribes and their assimilated descendants in other nations have a lot of N1c1, however genetically this is a different branch of N1c1 as that in Finnic Nations.

I thought the prussians who had N1C1 where originally letts from Finland

Dagne
11-10-11, 08:04
Old Prussians, Lithuanians, and Latvians N1c1 belong to it's Southern Baltic branch. In some sources it is named according to Herodotus Neuri. Their first common ancestor lived arround 2500-2600 years ago. The common ancestor for all N1c1 is somewhere 4000 years ago as I understand. There are several branches of N1c1 among finnic populations, and they cluster better with Northern Russian N1c1.

razyn
11-10-11, 10:44
Prussians... probably was descendants of Neuri tribe mentioned in Herodotus Historia , which were probably mostly R1a like all Scythians , and N1c Finni tribes they mixed with , and yes there is some I1 there

I didn't see this thread earlier. Bodin, remember if you want the Z196 men (or any other R-P312 lineage) to get to Iberia from the Vistula estuary (in order not to have the G haplogroup tagging along), there need to have been some of them in "Prussia" before they took their boats westward. We had that conversation later than your post quoted here, and of course on a different thread. I am bringing it up in the context of the neat map recently posted here by Dagne. How about some R1b Galindians -- would that make any sense at all?

Sile
11-10-11, 11:24
I didn't see this thread earlier. Bodin, remember if you want the Z196 men (or any other R-P312 lineage) to get to Iberia from the Vistula estuary (in order not to have the G haplogroup tagging along), there need to have been some of them in "Prussia" before they took their boats westward. We had that conversation later than your post quoted here, and of course on a different thread. I am bringing it up in the context of the neat map recently posted here by Dagne. How about some R1b Galindians -- would that make any sense at all?

Link on some galidian facts ......west-baltic N1c people
http://www.reocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/6623/proto.htm

What is it that you are trying to do with prussians in iberia ?

razyn
12-10-11, 03:55
What is it that you are trying to do with prussians in iberia ?

Roughly 5,000 to 4,500 years ago, when it happened (or didn't), they weren't really Prussians. So, nothing. But Bodin and I (among others) had a conversation about the possibility, on this other thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26727-Lack-of-G2a-in-Basque&p=379114&viewfull=1#post379114

zanipolo
12-10-11, 08:18
Roughly 5,000 to 4,500 years ago, when it happened (or didn't), they weren't really Prussians. So, nothing. But Bodin and I (among others) had a conversation about the possibility, on this other thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26727-Lack-of-G2a-in-Basque&p=379114&viewfull=1#post379114


old prussians near the vistula river who then where called Neuri from 600BCE, who then became the Venedi from 300BCE who then became the vidivarii in 200AD and then became the prussians again in 400AD

razyn
12-10-11, 11:05
Its odd that the map on post #11 is dated 1200BCE states prussians near the vistula river

I just noticed the map actually says 1200 CE. So Galindians (of that recent vintage) have no more to do with Iberia than Prussians. My original comment was about the need for R1b to have been present in that area (roughly, at the beginning of the Bronze Age), whereas this thread has mostly mentioned R1a.

Atasas
30-05-13, 19:07
To state that Prussians where not Balts- ridiculous, Lithuanians them-self are composite of many tribes (as Prussians).
There are many sources that state Goth's being same group, that moved West -ward, prior to region becoming extinct as an empire. Records regarding whole region at the time are scarce, due to them being mainly from Roman Empire and obviously misrepresenting facts by emotion.
Thanks to Teutonic documentation, that documented quite well their way eastwards over all Baltic lands and such suggests "return" to the region by different means.
From archaeological findings it is absolutely clear, regarding Baltic tribes being in Baltic peninsula all the way Oder River to Silesia, to Danube river, to Black Sea, to Ural Mountains. IE "Amber root"
Shame I can not post links, but articles/theories as "Homer in the Baltic" state probability and developed culture in that area.
An study as lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02 dot htm indicates as what I am quite keen in learning about Prussians.
I am still looking for a Prussian DNA sample to have a proof as in what migrations could be proven.