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Maciamo
30-07-11, 13:49
I am in a creative mood lately. After making new maps for haplogroups I1, I2b and Q, here is haplogroup T. There was already a map of hg T on Wikipedia (from which I got a little inspiration), but I didn't like it because it didn't distinguish between areas with less than 0.5%, 0.5 to 1% and 1 to 2%. That's an important distinction since T is pretty rare in Europe and rarely exceeds 5%. Another reason I didn't like the map on Wiki is that it takes percentages for point-locations with tiny sample sizes instead of making averages for the region. That's how you get ludicrous results, like an isolated peak of 17% in one Sicilian town.

Of course the map is only a rough approximation since frequencies can vary hugely from one study to another for rare haplogroups, and not all regions have reliable studies.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-T.gif

LeBrok
30-07-11, 17:34
Another great map, thanks. As they get more resolution they get more interesting.

zanipolo
31-07-11, 00:28
sea peoples , most probably mycenean Arcadian, cannot be phonenician because a lot of lands that the phoenicians settled are missing.

LeBrok
31-07-11, 07:56
Looks like T was successful among Neolithic farmers and rise of ancient Mediterranean civilizations. It is present in Egypt, Israel, Phoenician colonies, very strong in Greece and it's colonies.

Amazing is how it was cleaned up by Atlantic coast from Basque to Normandy and in Ireland. Most likely by some Celtic tribes.

Very interesting is high T signature in Estonia.

Knovas
31-07-11, 13:48
The wikipedia map is just a joke, and I also think I know the dement who created it...too bad xd

This one is much better in general terms, showing lower percents. Much more reasonable.

Question: ¿What about haplogroup T between the Pasiegos? ¿Do they show a significant percent of this haplogroup like happens for example with haplogroup E?

Goga
31-07-11, 14:42
I think that haplogroup T is very ancient and that the very first people that belonged to T were 'dark' skinned folks, like eastern Africans. T in the Middle East can maybe associated with the Elamites... But I'm not if sure if the original T folks were black, maybe the first T was Middle Eastern and rose around the Persian Gulf and not in East Africa. What do you guys think about it?

Why is there almost no T in North Africa? You can find J1 there because of the Arabs and the Arabic conquest, but ain't no T. Strange because I think that the Arabs might have imported some T in the region.

There's more T in Europe than in North Africa, why?

Are there any subsclade of T, like the European T, Middleeastern T, Caucasian T and African T, or are all the T's the same?

Maybe T (and J1) in the Caucasus is due to the Arabic invasions in the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_the_Caucasus

Knovas
31-07-11, 15:09
T seems to be more than 30.000 years old, so I think the first T's were black and Eastern Africa is the best place to focus its origin. Of course this haplogroup it's related with the middle east and other regions due to the antiquity, and there are also subclades that are possible to identify with those diferent places. However, I don't know so much about it, probably there is little or nothing clear on this.

Goga
31-07-11, 15:32
Yes, but there is almost ALL African T only in Somalia and eastern Ethiopia (Egypt is an Arabic country) and nowhere else in the inland of Africa. It's only there and not in the inner Africa but on the East Coast around the Gulf of Aden and Arabian Sea. In the past (and maybe nowadays) the mainstream group of anthropologists considered Ethiopians as the 'darkest' Caucasoid group or ethnicity.

Once again, there is no T in Africa, but only in a very small (relatively speaking) area around the Gulf of Aden and the Arabians Sea. In general there's more T in Europe and Middle East than in Africa.

Maybe T was spread by the sea into East Africa and East India by the Elamites and their kinsmen. And that the T folks in East Africa are actually from the Middle East?

Goga
31-07-11, 15:52
There was a backmigration of peoples into Africa about 30,000 years ago and 9,000 years ago (the Semitic speaking Neolithic farmers).

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p265-268.pdf


"Anyway, the gist of these collected DNA studies is that Ethiopians are about 40% Caucasian, and are genetically a little more closely related to Mediterranean Caucasian groups like Berbers and Arabs than Western Africans."

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/caucasian-africans/

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/race-twig.gif

Knovas
31-07-11, 16:04
T reach high levels in all Cameroon (18%), and it's in the opposite side of Africa. So the presence in Africa is enough significant to focus it's origin there, specially in East Africa where the highest frequencies are located.

Tanzania is also mentioned here in Eupedia.

Goga
31-07-11, 16:08
T reach high levels in all Cameroon (18%), and it's in the opposite side of Africa. So the presence in Africa is enough significant to focus it's origin there, specially in East Africa where the highest frequencies are located.
Ok, but wasn't Cameroon a place with very, very high level presence of R1b too?

Maybe T entered Cameroon together with R1b?

Knovas
31-07-11, 16:18
I don't remember if was Cameroon the country with this special r1b, but it's true that this variant was detected in several African regions. What you say is not impossible, but normally the easiest answer is the correct one. So I personaly prefer the East African origin option, althought your's is another posibility.

Goga
31-07-11, 17:11
I don't remember if was Cameroon the country with this special r1b, but it's true that this variant was detected in several African regions. What you say is not impossible, but normally the easiest answer is the correct one. So I personaly prefer the East African origin option, althought your's is another posibility.No, I don't prefer any theory. My opinion is 50-50. I'm just trying to be open-minded and don't want to exclude other possibilities.

R1b in Cameroon. And according to you there is also T in Cameroon. Maybe there is a correlation between the 2 haplogroups?

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3876/74904584.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/749/33594695.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))

Wilhelm
31-07-11, 17:20
No, I don't prefer any theory. My opinion is 50-50. I'm just trying to be open-minded and don't want to exclude other possibilities.

R1b in Cameroon. And according to you there is also T in Cameroon. Maybe there is a correlation between the 2 haplogroups?

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3876/74904584.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/749/33594695.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))
The European branch of R1b (M269) is 0.0%

Goga
31-07-11, 17:23
The European branch of R1b (M269) is 0.0%Yes, but the original R1b is not from Europe nor from Africa. Folks in Cameroon and folks in Europe with R1b just share the same ancestors. Then R1b in Europe and Africa evolved separate. But European R1b is closer to African R1b than to the European R1a.

Maybe the same R1b folks (from the Middle East) that entered Cameroon brought T into this part of Africa?

LeBrok
31-07-11, 21:10
Yes, but the original R1b is not from Europe nor from Africa. Folks in Cameroon and folks in Europe with R1b just share the same ancestors. Then R1b in Europe and Africa evolved separate. But European R1b is closer to African R1b than to the European R1a.

Maybe the same R1b folks (from the Middle East) that entered Cameroon brought T into this part of Africa?

That's very likely, and I think this is what's happened.

Humanist
12-08-11, 17:25
Were the results of the Mendez et al. study included in the frequencies?

Increased Resolution of Y Chromosome Haplogroup T Defines Relationships among Populations of the Near East, Europe,and Africa (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21453003)
Hum Biol. 2011 Feb;83(1):39-53.


POP n T M184* M70* PS21* P77 P330 P321* P317 L131* P322* P327
EGY 150 7% 6% 1%
TUN 34 0%
ETH 58 7% 7%
PAL 115 5% 1% 1% 4%
BED 28 0%
DRU 39 8% 8%
JOR 187 3% 2% 1% 1%
LEB 34 0%
SYR 95 5% 1% 2% 1% 1%
TUR 284 1% 0% 1%
ASY 31 13% 10% 3%
IRQ 36 6% 3% 3%
IRN 73 1% 1%
KSA 33 0%
YEM 18 0%
MOJ 54 8% 6% 2%
TUJ 10 0%
ETJ 21 5% 5%
KJ 50 18% 8% 10%
IRQJ 32 22% 9% 13%
IRNJ 22 14% 9% 5%
YEMJ 44 7% 5% 2%
UZBJ 9 0%
BULJ 42 5% 5%
TURJ 34 6% 3% 3%
ROMJ 53 6% 2% 4%
ASHJ 587 1% 1% 0%
BUL 29 0%
LEM 34 18% 18%

Frequencies rounded to nearest whole percent.

Population POP
Egyptian EGY
Tunisians TUN
Ethiopians ETH
Palestinians PAL
Bedouins BED
Druze DRU
Jordanians JOR
Lebanese LEB
Syrians SYR
Turks TUR
Assyrians ASY
Iraqis IRQ
Iranians IRN
Saudi Arabians KSA
Yemenis YEM
Moroccan Jews MOJ
Tunisian Jews TUJ
Ethiopian Jews ETJ
Kurdish Jews KJ
Iraqi Jews IRQJ
Iranian Jews IRNJ
Yemenite Jews YEMJ
Uzbek Jews UZBJ
Bulgarian Jews BULJ
Turkish Jews TURJ
Roman Jews ROMJ
Ashkenazi Jews ASHJ
Bulgarians BUL
Lemba LEM


Origin and Dispersal of Haplogroup T in the Near East. Three lines of
evidence support the hypothesis that haplogroup T originated in the Near East
and subsequently expanded from there. First, the geographic distribution of the
two sister clades, haplogroup L and haplogroup T, overlap in the Near East,
although L has a more easterly epicenter in India and Pakistan (Sengupta et al.
2006). Second, almost all of M70* chromosomes surveyed here are found in the
Near East, and the two main subclades (T1a and T1b) also predominate in this area.
Finally, the internal structure of the T clade, with the single T* sample coming from
Syria, provides evidence that the most basal haplogroup T branch is present in the Near East.

Humanist
12-08-11, 17:34
And, for those interested, a PC plot from Mendez et al., of the "kinship R matrix" based on the Y-DNA frequencies for populations (after removal of outliers).

Populations:

Assyr (Assyrians), Druze (Druze), Egy(Egyptians), IraqA (Iraqis), Jord (Jordanians), Pal (Palestinians), Syr (Syrians), Turk (Turks), BulJ (Bulgarian Jews), IraqJ (Iraqi Jews), ItaJ (Italian Jews), KurdJ (Kurdish Jews) MorJ (Moroccan Jews), TurJ (Turkish Jews), Yem (Yemenites), YemJ(Yemenite Jews).

zanipolo
06-07-12, 08:57
info on T

my guess is that they are traders or hunters

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinborland/6243496848/

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/evidence-regarding-dravidian-linguistic.html


this is T1 M70 for europe
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/

you need to select T box....for some reason it does not save selection after i save

(http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/)

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=ymap (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/)

zanipolo
06-07-12, 09:38
To Maciamo

in March 2012 , the estonian T on your map was haplogroup L

Estonia (The Estonian y-STR haplotypes belonging to K* belongs to L2-L595 but not T-M184)

I know T and L came from K , so unless you have other data for estonia then it should be L

SomaLion
22-07-12, 19:30
Maciamo said: "I didn't like it because it didn't distinguish between areas with less than 0.5%, 0.5 to 1% and 1 to 2%. That's an important distinction since T is pretty rare in Europe and rarely exceeds 5%" So why is the wiki one made by a demented person? I don't see why this Spanish poster has an issue with it. T is mostly in Africa now. Does that bother you? It was Asiatic and moved into Africa. Very little is in Europe as Maciamo pointed out, but the highest is in Africa. What is the issue there? Is being African a scourge now?? My brothers and father are T1.

SomaLion
22-07-12, 19:37
Knovas seems like those Europeans who want to be special. At least you acknowledged that it was Africa where it all began. Princess points for you on that. You're not even a T so why does it matter what you think of this? Glad Maciamo has decency to be courteous and state that it is for resolving the European part alone. It is an Afrasian haplogroup and that is where it is mostly found. This is how people try to deny African people what belngs to them. They say Egypt is now "white" and erase our contributions. I am not surprised by Knovas or people like that. There is no such thing as "Black" or "White". This is myth. Even we know that. But then again, it was Asians and Caucasians who came up with it in the first place. A way to separate ¥ourselves from the roots. Sad. Guess YOU are the "dement", Knovas. You and those like you.

Knovas
22-07-12, 22:58
I have a copy of the Wikipedia's map discussed in this thread, and shows 22-23% of T in some areas of Austria and Eastern Germany. To my knowledge this has never been sampled, for this reason I said what I said. In short: it's false.

I don't know if the map has changed since the last time, but my opinion about T did it substantially. Anyways, I won't check Wikipedia for that issue, I prefer other kind of sources.

For the rest of your strange conclusions: no comments.

JFWR
23-07-12, 09:47
Knovas seems like those Europeans who want to be special. At least you acknowledged that it was Africa where it all began. Princess points for you on that. You're not even a T so why does it matter what you think of this? Glad Maciamo has decency to be courteous and state that it is for resolving the European part alone. It is an Afrasian haplogroup and that is where it is mostly found. This is how people try to deny African people what belngs to them. They say Egypt is now "white" and erase our contributions. I am not surprised by Knovas or people like that. There is no such thing as "Black" or "White". This is myth. Even we know that. But then again, it was Asians and Caucasians who came up with it in the first place. A way to separate ¥ourselves from the roots. Sad. Guess YOU are the "dement", Knovas. You and those like you.

Well, Egypt was certainly Caucasoid and King Tut's Y-DNA is R1b, which is the most popular haplogroup in Western Europe. Egypt was not "African" in the sense of "black African" or Negroid.

And we Caucasoids haven't been African for thousands of years. What's your point? That we came out of Africa so therefore we are Africans? My ancestors haven't been in Africa for six times more recorded human history. I think it's safe to say we aren't Africans.

zanipolo
23-07-12, 11:23
Well T is south-west asian , like Q and L and G and J and R and many more of the modern group, except E which , correct me if I am wrong is originally african ( of the modern haplogroups) .

Somali's have 89% E and 10% T
According to Y chromosome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome) studies by Sanchez et al. (2005) and Cruciani et al. (2004), the Somalis are paternally closely related to certain Ethiopian groups, particularly Cushitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushitic_languages) speakers:[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Sanchez2005-68)[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Cruciani2004-69)

"The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population − closely related to the Oromos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oromo_people) in Ethiopia and North Kenya − with predominant E3b1 [now "E1b1b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29)"] cluster lineages... and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome) from Eurasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia) and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa)."[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Sanchez2005-68)

Besides comprising the majority of the Y DNA in Somalis, the E1b1b1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29) (formerly E3b1a) haplogroup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup) also makes up a significant proportion of the paternal DNA of Ethiopians, Sudanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan), Egyptians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians), Berbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people), North African Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghrebi_Arabic), as well as many Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea) and Balkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) Europeans.[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Cruciani2004-69)[71] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-70) The M78 subclade of E1b1b is found in about 77% of Somali males,[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Sanchez2005-68) which, according to Cruciani et al. (2007), may represent the traces of an ancient migration into the Horn of Africa from Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt)/Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya).[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-Cruciani2007-71) After haplogroup E1b1b, the second most frequently occurring Y DNA haplogroup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup) among Somalis is the Eurasian haplogroup T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28Y-DNA%29) (M70),[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_people#cite_note-72) which is found in slightly more than 10% of Somali males.

T is due to migration from asia to africa
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinborland/6243496848/

zanipolo
09-08-12, 22:50
ISOGG update for T markers ( 4th in 4 years)

Here is thecurrent T tree at ISOGG updated as of yesterday.


T L445, L452, L455, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272, Page129
• T* -
• T1 L206, L490, M193
• • T1* -
• • T1a M70/Page46, Page78
• • • T1a* -
• • • T1a1 L162/Page21, L299, L453, L454
• • • T1a2 L131
• • • • T1a2* -
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446


If you are L446 negative, then you could test for P322.


I have changed again


EDIT on above
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

one of my project guys might have given me different information

If Isogg is correct , then the Mendez papers of 2 years ago are obsolrtr as he mentions T1a2 as not having subclade L131

The Desert Fox
28-10-13, 01:43
Hello, Northern European "T" here. Wikipedia sites in general are now very strongly moderated and so I hope that the "gaps" in the reference list in Wikipedia's T-site can be explained. I have written to the moderator(moderators?) asking for the sources of those areas that do not have a reference - lets see what they say, as there is a lot of interesting data, particularly in Germany, Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

adamo
28-10-13, 02:20
Of what origin r u?

Sile
28-10-13, 07:49
Hello, Northern European "T" here. Wikipedia sites in general are now very strongly moderated and so I hope that the "gaps" in the reference list in Wikipedia's T-site can be explained. I have written to the moderator(moderators?) asking for the sources of those areas that do not have a reference - lets see what they say, as there is a lot of interesting data, particularly in Germany, Northern Europe and Scandinavia.

Z710 ?...is that new

Which company have you tested for?

I am T with the following
M184+ , M193+, M272+, M70+, L131+, L446+, P327-

adamo
28-10-13, 16:51
I think it's just downstream of Z709

The Desert Fox
29-10-13, 02:56
Indeed, according to Geno 2 TZ-710 is L299 derived but not P77. Still waiting to hear from Wiki about those data sets which don't have references but the site does say that "the paternal haplogroup T-M70 varies between 3% and 24% of male lineages in Germany", and quotes The Genographic Project 2.0 2012. This seems to be backed up by the dataset for German Stilfs at least, with a figure of 23.5% (I. Pichler et al., "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms," Human Biology, August 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441–464). The Eupedia density map only shows 1%. If the other Wiki sources prove valid then the Eupedia map may need to be updated, at least for this area. Will keep you posted.

adamo
29-10-13, 03:17
Yes but...the Stilfs are an exception in Germany; what they meant us that he lowest frequency is near 3% and the highest region tested at 24%. Thing is Germany has like 1-3% hg T in reality; same for England, it just really isn't present there. Italians have exceptional amounts at 3-5% of the males on average in the entire nation. Sicily has an 18% high in the Sciacca region. Parts of Spain and Portugal have as high as 10% with 20% or higher only experienced in a few bizarre cities across Italy the island of Chios and near Crete/the Aegean islands as well.

adamo
29-10-13, 03:18
That's for Europe anyways.

adamo
29-10-13, 03:33
The MAXIMUM reported in any zone of Germany is 24%! The national levels are like.....2-4% lol, not even, same for England and all of Europe excluding the italian 3-5% "high" Sicily's 5-17% and ibiza's 14%.

Sile
29-10-13, 07:01
Yes but...the Stilfs are an exception in Germany; what they meant us that he lowest frequency is near 3% and the highest region tested at 24%. Thing is Germany has like 1-3% hg T in reality; same for England, it just really isn't present there. Italians have exceptional amounts at 3-5% of the males on average in the entire nation. Sicily has an 18% high in the Sciacca region. Parts of Spain and Portugal have as high as 10% with 20% or higher only experienced in a few bizarre cities across Italy the island of Chios and near Crete/the Aegean islands as well.

Stilfs is in Italy, south-tirol. The ancient people there where raetic people (modern Ladins) who spoke raetian language and became Ladins once learning latin.

I believe he means, that the 3% to 24% indicates that subclade M70 of all of T in Germany is in that range. the other T subclades are different or branched further than m70.

Sile
29-10-13, 07:04
Indeed, according to Geno 2 TZ-710 is L299 derived but not P77. Still waiting to hear from Wiki about those data sets which don't have references but the site does say that "the paternal haplogroup T-M70 varies between 3% and 24% of male lineages in Germany", and quotes The Genographic Project 2.0 2012. This seems to be backed up by the dataset for German Stilfs at least, with a figure of 23.5% (I. Pichler et al., "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms," Human Biology, August 2006, v. 78, no. 4, pp. 441–464). The Eupedia density map only shows 1%. If the other Wiki sources prove valid then the Eupedia map may need to be updated, at least for this area. Will keep you posted.

stilfs is in Italy.

I read somewhere that there was a new marker as you described , but I thought it would be branded as T1a4, but then I also heard it would be T1a1a3

adamo
29-10-13, 17:22
Stilfs is near the Italo/Germano/Austrian border regions you are correct. Seems that Iberia in a more secondary way; but Ibiza islands, western Sicily, parts of mainland Italy and the island of Chios off turkey plus certain Aegean islands + fractions of Crete certainly have europe's highest T frequencies with generally higher frequencies towards the east-central Mediterranean regions: all this within Europe.

adamo
09-11-13, 18:42
It would seem that hg T finds it's highest hot bed concentration across south-west and central Iran. This stretches across Ilam, lorestan, khuzestan, Bakhtiari, yazd, fars, kerman; these southwest and central Iranian provinces have 10-13% hg T. Then 7% spread across much of Iraq with a 10% peak in the extreme south. From here hg T seems to initially radiate.

The Desert Fox
18-11-13, 00:11
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!

adamo
18-11-13, 01:25
2/3 of all T samples are L299 Fox : ) regardless of their global position ; L299+ is about 100% of Armenian, Lebanese and Syrian T samples, for example. In total though, only 10% of Armenians are T and 2-5% I believe of the other two countries.

Sile
18-11-13, 06:18
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!


Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.

When T was formed from K2 in 2008 the data above was recalculated and the following was the result - note I will use T-L299 for T1a and T-L131 for T1b

Gotland and Blekinge was 100% T1b low diversity
Vasterbotten was joined with Jutland and was 100% T1b
Uppsala unsure , but I have Uusimaa as 100% T1a


Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.

Shetland is 100% T1b
Faroe is in a 2006 report about vikings.....I can get it...........person by the name of Jamieson
Norway, 2 I know are T1b
Baltic Prussia ..........50% for both T1a and T1b


2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.

Benelux is 50% each for T1a and T1b
Central Germany...( must be Berlin ) 71% T1a and 29% T1b.....high diversity
Czech, south Tyrol and slovenia is 100% T1a
Trento, friuli and veneto ( and Ladin areas) is 50% each for T1a and T1b


Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!

agree, with the added 2 routes..........Bulgaria and Romania through the Danube and
to Estonia as part of the paper for the Baltic jump zone


EDIT - Read from page 35 ..........you can calculate what they are using a ypredictor ( for faroe and shetland and iceland)
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

adamo
18-11-13, 06:22
Yes I agree that Northern Europe and Europe in General seems to have a lot of T1b; the oldest forms of T1b thus far have been detected in turkey; most Bakhtiaris, Kuwaitis, and half of Turkish and Saudi Arabian samples are T1b.

adamo
18-11-13, 06:22
I mean that he little percentage of T there is is predominantly T1b.

adamo
18-11-13, 06:25
Whereas T1a has a more Mediterranean spread and all across the Middle East of course; virtually all Armenian, Chechen, lurs, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian and many other areas are mostly T1a's. Saudi Arabia, turkey and western parts of Iran are split fifty-fifty between T1b and T1a; the Bakhtiaris are predominantly T1b whereas the Lurs are 100% T1a.

Sile
19-11-13, 21:25
map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/7977/9wlp.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/9wlp.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Sile
19-11-13, 21:35
Thanks Adamo. I am still waiting to hear back from 2 of the administrators on the Wiki site about the missing sources for some of their data, but I have managed to make some progress on some of them myself.
1. Scandinavian data - Karlsson et al (2006) Eur.J.Hum.Genet. 14, 963-970.
We have: GOTLAND (2/40 = 5%), UPPSALA (1/55 = 2%), BLEKINGE (1/41 = 2%), VASTERBOTTEN (1/41 = 2%). This is based on the (reasonable) assumption that K*(xN,P) is all T & the contribution from any haplo L folks is small.
Earlier Jorgensen et al (2004) Hum. Genet. 115, 19-28 is where the Faroes and Danish data comes from: We find from their distribution map: FAROE ISLANDS (2/89 = 2%), DENMARK (3/62 = 5%). Also NORWAY (4/157 = 3%), ICELAND (2/181 = 1%), average for SWEDEN (9/110 = 8%), again based on that assumption. The results for Gotland and Sweden seem to reinforce the other data Wiki quotes for Malmo (1/29 = 3%) and Orebo (1/32 = 3%). Couldn't find the source of the Shetlands data but it does ties in with the Faroes.
2. The data showing very high levels in SOUTH GERMANY/BAVARIA looks genuine (4/17 = 24% - this extremely high level must be due to drift), from Pichler et al (2006) Human Biology, 441–464, and reinforces the data for Alsace (4/80 = 5%) and other data quoted in the region. I've not yet been able to find the source of Wiki's northern German data based on BERLIN (4/103 = 4%) or the HOLLAND (1/18 = 6%) and FLEMISH data (1/42 = 2% and 2/119 = 2%) but hope to hear from the moderators about that. I've been shown data from a Kurdistan led study showing significant levels of L299 in northern Europe (including Holland, Denmark and Lithuania) but that has not been published yet. And according to the Geno2 report I was given for L299 it describes significant levels also in Holland and England. So in all, the distribution map shown by Wiki seems reasonable. Our own subclade in England (based on the distributions of the surnames of folks we know who belong to our group) seem to follow an East to north west cline. In short, I think the Wiki map is OK, at least from a North European perspective.
Whatever, I think the otherwise excellent map on this page should be revised to take into proper account us Northerners.
To me, it seems from the evidence so far that the T's came into Europe via Anatolia, and one group headed through Greece and onto Germany and northwards to Scandinavia and Eastern Britain and northern isles, another group headed through Italy, Southern France (the proportions there seem overestimated) and Iberia. A further group headed from SW Asia northwards through the Crimea. Speculative at the moment but we await the full findings from Geno 2 with interest.
Of course I maybe just another old Northern European having a grumble!

@MACIANO
you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data

adamo
19-11-13, 23:14
So what do you read from this map Maciamo? In the Middle East I see and abundance of Turkish and Saudi ArabiansArabians

The Desert Fox
23-11-13, 16:14
MACIANO
you need to upgrade your T map to reflect the above data MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South

Maciamo
24-11-13, 08:22
MACIAMO - indeed it does need updating. We can then sit more proudly alongside our brothers from the South

The old version from a few months ago had a much higher level of T in northern Europe. But after comibing all studies for every country, I noticed that the "hotspots" in some regions were simply due to sampling bias or the fact that people assumed that hg K in older studies was necessarily T, something that was disproved by newer studies. Overall there isn't a single North European country where T exceeds 1%, except Estonia, but I am confident that this is also a sampling bias and that later studies will also lower that percentage.

Over the years I have realised that the rarer a haplogroup is, the more important it is to have a large sample size to avoid sampling bias. For haplogroup T it is hard to trust data for any country if there is less than 1000 samples. Local peaks in tiny samples under 100 are not representative and indeed very misleading, which is why they should be ignored.

Studies published before 2010 (or some even after that) did not specifically test for T, but only for K, which may also includes L, N or actual K*. Therefore data from such studies should be taken with a pinch of salt and percentages of T always revised downward compared to K.

Maciamo
24-11-13, 08:38
map of T marker...only 67 and above markers noted..............seems like this site ignore the lesser tested ones

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/7977/9wlp.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/9wlp.png/)


Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.

adamo
24-11-13, 09:21
The massive maciamo with the appropriate comments

Sile
24-11-13, 09:58
Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.

Just to clarify and not alter your arguement, the map contains only 67 markers and above and only gathered from FTDNA and 1000genomes ( if thats how you spell it)

My aim is to find out who brought the T into europe , we can guess the south being Phoenician, but the north?

And T will diminish in percentage even though the numbers will increase for T as more people do DNA test ............that's a fact

adamo
24-11-13, 10:11
Good comments although t is found in 8-10% of omanis and emirians and is certainly present in saudis as well. Can someone please try to decipher the snp values i posted; ZERO matches on ftdna.

Sile
24-11-13, 11:54
@Desert Fox

You are after British T marked people, then go to internet....Ftdna T project..........then map....use scroll bar until you get to Gamma-2-C predicted L131+. it will show you 39 out of 43 in europe to be in britain...plus another 20 in the northern USA

Only issue is that you are not L131


Are they Picts ? or Gaels...........I would laugh if they are

adamo
29-11-13, 18:16
I have found one individual on genographic project with T-M272+ from the Caucasus of Avar origin; the Avars are said to have resided anciently in the Khorasan region of Iran near the afghan border, this would make sense.

adamo
08-12-13, 05:12
Recently saw a map showing 0% T in northern Lebanon and 5% in the south (both these regions had 20% J1.) 1% T in northern Syria and 8% in the south (the north has about 27% J1 whereas the south oddly showed only 12%.) Eastern Turkey had 6% T and Israel had 7% (both regions had about 10% J1). Yemen had 4% T and 35% J1. Western Iran on the Iraqi border has 13% T and 11% J1. East central Iraq has 11% T and 16% J1 whereas west central Iraq has 14% T and 16% J1. Northeastern Iraq had 6% T whereas northwestern Iraq had a whopping 19% T and 22% J1.. THe extreme north of Iraq on the Turkish border shows 15% T and 21% J1.

adamo
08-12-13, 05:18
The Levantine regions (Lebanon, Syria, Israel,) show about 1-8% T (we know Jordanians have 21% nationally) and Yemenites have 4% (although UAE and Oman have 10%.) eastern turkey has 6%, but western Iran has 13% and central Iraq has 10-15%. Northern Iraq has 5-20% depending on the particular region.

adamo
08-12-13, 05:38
this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parentheses6132

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is

adamo
10-12-13, 05:09
Judging from the underlined values in this map, T is certainly more frequent towards Iran/Iraq than the levant, Arabian or Anatolian peninsulas, any thoughts ?

Sile
10-12-13, 10:20
this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parentheses6132

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is

the map is about 2 years old and comes from the Armenia forum and it has to do with a link between . locations and there association with the northern Caucasus. It was plotted by someone......maybe Humanist or a colleague, i cannot remember

adamo
10-12-13, 19:45
I find it strange how the T marker peaks on the Ibiza islands (16%) southern Spanish city of Cadiz, westernmost Sicily, northern Corsica, Crete and the Aegean region, the island of Chios, parts of Italy; most of those places I just mentioned where Phoenician colonies at one time or another. Extremely rare and localized around ancient Phoenician sites; one might assume a guy like cristiano Ronaldo would have the T marker .

The Desert Fox
12-06-15, 17:13
The old version from a few months ago had a much higher level of T in northern Europe. But after comibing all studies for every country, I noticed that the "hotspots" in some regions were simply due to sampling bias or the fact that people assumed that hg K in older studies was necessarily T, something that was disproved by newer studies. Overall there isn't a single North European country where T exceeds 1%, except Estonia, but I am confident that this is also a sampling bias and that later studies will also lower that percentage.

Over the years I have realised that the rarer a haplogroup is, the more important it is to have a large sample size to avoid sampling bias. For haplogroup T it is hard to trust data for any country if there is less than 1000 samples. Local peaks in tiny samples under 100 are not representative and indeed very misleading, which is why they should be ignored.

Studies published before 2010 (or some even after that) did not specifically test for T, but only for K, which may also includes L, N or actual K*. Therefore data from such studies should be taken with a pinch of salt and percentages of T always revised downward compared to K. Thanks for this. Opinions vary. Professional population geneticists will take a minimum of 20 sample number. I think the Wikipedia site gives the most balanced view on T-184 and gives its full reference sources without making arbitrary selections of data. However this discussion seems largely irrelevant now. The most significant finding - from the 2015 Nature study led by David Reich's group (Haak et al, 2015) is the only ancient DNA sample with T1a found ..... & surprise, surprise, happens to be in the centre of Germany - the Karsdorf man (~5000BC).

Sile
13-06-15, 08:33
Thanks for this. Opinions vary. Professional population geneticists will take a minimum of 20 sample number. I think the Wikipedia site gives the most balanced view on T-184 and gives its full reference sources without making arbitrary selections of data. However this discussion seems largely irrelevant now. The most significant finding - from the 2015 Nature study led by David Reich's group (Haak et al, 2015) is the only ancient DNA sample with T1a found ..... & surprise, surprise, happens to be in the centre of Germany - the Karsdorf man (~5000BC).


what do you think of this K-M9 marker .............in regards to L and T

LT (referring to the joint root of L and T, not the range L to T). Instead, we therefore prefer the more intuitive labels CDEF and BCDEF,respectively,as used in previous publications [Heinrich et al., 2009; Underhill and Kivisild, 2007; van Oven et al., 2011].
Within the large K-M9 clade, which encompasses haplogroups L, M, NO, P (including Q and R), S, and T, a deep bifurcation was revealed, with haplogroups M, NO, P, and S falling in one subclade, defined by marker M526 [Chiaroni et al., 2009], and haplogroups L and T falling in the other subclade, defined by marker P326 [Mendez et al., 2011]. The latter subclade logically being labeled LT [Mendezet al., 2011], we “downgraded” the K label to designate the other, M526-defined subclade, and used KLT for the unifying M9-defined clade, as proposed previously [van Oven et al., 2011].

RobertColumbia
21-06-15, 03:28
Looks like T was successful among Neolithic farmers and rise of ancient Mediterranean civilizations. It is present in Egypt, Israel, Phoenician colonies, very strong in Greece and it's colonies.

Amazing is how it was cleaned up by Atlantic coast from Basque to Normandy and in Ireland. Most likely by some Celtic tribes.

Very interesting is high T signature in Estonia.

The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

LeBrok
21-06-15, 05:37
The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?
I wish I knew, I was commenting about the map of hg T.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-T.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

Might as well been a lost legion of Romans or Greeks, or indeed Phoenician, or it is very ancient since Neolithic from one successful farmer. We need to wait for many ancient results to figure this one out.

Regio X
21-06-15, 07:01
The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?I read in Anthrogenica that L2-l595 highest frequency is found in Estonia, and that it matches the areas of T1a (with exceptions).

RobertColumbia
21-06-15, 19:20
...Of course the map is only a rough approximation since frequencies can vary hugely from one study to another for rare haplogroups, and not all regions have reliable studies....

Thank you for mentioning this. Much of the DNA testing that is going on nowadays is self-selected, which is about the worst sampling bias you can have. Even without self-selection, you generally need a very large sample size to accurately measure rare traits. For example, if you grabbed five people at random off the street and asked them whether any of them had a doctoral degree in humanities (and if so, to prove it by showing a copy of their degree), the percentage that you are going to get is likely to be extremely divergent from the more accurate number you would probably get if you polled a thousand people. With these rare traits, minor disturbances in distribution are likely to get magnified. For example, polling random people on the campus of Penn State is likely to get you an overly high estimate of the number of doctorates in the state of Pennsylvania while polling random people at a Pennsylvania prison would likely underestimate of the number of doctorates in Pennsylvania.

Sile
29-07-15, 19:47
The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

this below was one of the papers that placed 6.5% of T in Estonia
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00119.x/full

SomaLion
02-06-19, 22:07
Tut's hg was IMPLIED to be that based on a SCREENSHOT. Until the actual data is formally presented...... your strange conclusion deserves no real comment.


Well, Egypt was certainly Caucasoid and King Tut's Y-DNA is R1b, which is the most popular haplogroup in Western Europe. Egypt was not "African" in the sense of "black African" or Negroid.


And we Caucasoids haven't been African for thousands of years. What's your point? That we came out of Africa so therefore we are Africans? My ancestors haven't been in Africa for six times more recorded human history. I think it's safe to say we aren't Africans.

Spanish people are hardly Caucasoid. Keep shaking that tree, bub.

"Africa begins at the Pyrenees."