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Maciamo
04-08-11, 22:51
I couldn't make maps for T and Q without also making one for J1. As with other minority haplogroups the map was a bit tricky to design due to the very small range between colours at low frequency. Another problem was that J1 is most common in the Middle East and North Africa, but that many of these countries do not have detailed studies. I encountered some very conflicting studies regarding eastern Turkey, Kurdistan and Syria.

One interesting "discovery" is the relatively high frequency of J1 in France, with a peak around 4% in the Auvergne and Midi-Pyrénées regions. Unfortunately there isn't enough data for the Loire Valley, Burgundy, Champagne, Gascony or the French Alps, but I filled the gaps by looking at adjacent regions.

I am not sure whether the J1 frequencies I found for North Germany, Poland and Ukraine include Jewish people or not.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

Goga
04-08-11, 23:18
Thank you very much. I see a little concentration of J1 around Antwerpen. Antwerpen is the capital of European-Jewish diamond merchants.

I think that the Nazis changed the distribution of J1 in northern Europe. 3 million Polish Jews got killed by the Nazis. That was for about 10% of total Polish population in 1940.

Can you also generate a map for hg R1b?

Taranis
04-08-11, 23:24
Another very excellent map, Maciamo! Thanks for sharing this!

Maciamo
05-08-11, 08:47
Thank you very much. I see a little concentration of J1 around Antwerpen. Antwerpen is the capital of European-Jewish diamond merchants.

It's not around Antwerp, but around Brussels, Ghent and Mechelen, based on the Brabant DNA Project (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032-Breakdown-of-Y-DNA-distribution-in-Belgium-by-province&). Antwerp had 0% J1. Tested members are all Flemish, not Jewish AFAIK. I hope I colourised the map properly. The green doesn't reach the seaside.



Can you also generate a map for hg R1b?

But I made more than a year ago. Did you not see the most important page about haplogroups on this site ? => Origins & descriptions of European haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#R1b)

zanipolo
05-08-11, 09:04
J - hmm associated with the great seafaring trading peoples. Trade are = merchant area

Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to Amsterdam

Maciamo
05-08-11, 10:38
J - hmm associated with the great seafaring trading peoples. Trade are = merchant area

That would be J2, not J1. J1 is clearly of Arabic and Jewish/Palestinian origin. It is found in places colonised by the Arabs, and among Jewish communities.



Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to Amsterdam

You have such a fragmentary grasp of history ! There are approximately 15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Antwerp), amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.

Goga
05-08-11, 10:55
Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to AmsterdamBut after the Jewish persecution during the WW2 many Jews in Amstedam got killed or deported to the concentration camps. The diamond business (industry) in Amsterdam collapsed after that and Antwerpen regained again their main position.

For the diamonds you must be in Antwerpen.

Goga
05-08-11, 11:01
15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Antwerp), amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.In Antwerpen there are also many 'Jewish' immigrants from the formal Soviet Republics like Georgia in diamond business. There're nowadays Belgian nationals though.

Taranis
05-08-11, 11:30
What surprises me most about this distribution is the high concentrations of J1 in Greece and Italy, as well as in southern France!

Regarding Iberian J1, I wonder to what degree this is a result of the Moorish period, or if this is also the effect of earlier Phoenician settlements, or possibly even earlier, Neolithic influences.

zanipolo
05-08-11, 11:32
That would be J2, not J1. J1 is clearly of Arabic and Jewish/Palestinian origin. It is found in places colonised by the Arabs, and among Jewish communities.



You have such a fragmentary grasp of history ! There are approximately 15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Antwerp), amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.

not fragmentary, just not bothering with detail, but if you wish, after the 15th century spanish inquistion ( moriscos) , the jews went to antwerp or ferrara ( italy ), then Venice to corfu to Levant. The antwerp ones set up trade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Antwerp
The % of jews then in antwerp was greater than the 20th century.

nationality does not change your dna

Antwerp being the Portuguese home of trade after their Tago trade in portugal was minimalise enabled the jews ( 12% of the population ) , with portuguese shipping to supply the north sea states with goods etc etc.

And yes J1 is as you say

how yes no 2
06-08-11, 01:05
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

distributions of J1 in Europe are not due to Jewish people who are rather dispersed on large areas, but case of historic migrations of larger ethnic groups ....

in Spain, Sicily and Sardinia it is about Arabic people entering from north Africa...

in France it is brought by Franks (also known as Fruzi/Frugians in Serbo-Croat, e.g. see origin of name mountain Fruska gora )
who brought it from Asia minor as Francs in my opinion origin from Phrygians...note that legend of origin of Francs relates them to Troy..

in fact, hotspot in Belgium also strongly suggests Frankish origin as it is nearby original frankish settlement area...

200AD

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_627.jpg


in northwest Italy it is brought by Etruscans...in fact, we can even see place from which they departured as a hole in J1 spread in Lydia


in Baltic and northeast Italy it is about Veneti who moved out from Paphlagonia, which is also supported by hole in spread in Paphlagonia ...

in Serbs it is probably due to world empire of I2a Serians stretching from Europe deep into Asia all the way to China and south as far as into Arabian peninsula...

Wilhelm
06-08-11, 02:07
Seems my post was deleted. Anyways, I think the Southern Spain is wrong, at Iberianroots they have only 1.5% for Andalusia

Drac
06-08-11, 02:22
distributions of J1 in Europe are not due to Jewish people who are rather dispersed on large areas, but case of historic migrations of larger ethnic groups ....

in Spain, Sicily and Sardinia it is about Arabic people entering from north Africa...

in France it is brought by Franks (also known as Fruzi/Frugians in Serbo-Croat, e.g. see origin of name mountain Fruska gora )
who brought it from Asia minor as Francs in my opinion origin from Phrygians...note that legend of origin of Francs relates them to Troy..

in fact, hotspot in Belgium also strongly suggests Frankish origin as it is nearby original frankish settlement area...


in northwest Italy it is brought by Etruscans...in fact, we can even see place from which they departured as a hole in J1 spread in Lydia


in Baltic and northeast Italy it is about Veneti who moved out from Paphlagonia, which is also supported by hole in spread in Paphlagonia ...

in Serbs it is probably due to world empire of I2a Serians stretching from Europe deep into Asia all the way to China and south as far as into Arabian peninsula...

Following the same "logic" that you apply to Jews, it is quite difficult that it could be due to Arabs in either Iberia, Sicily or Sardinia since it's well known that the number of these foreign invaders was pretty small.

Following your same arbitrary assignations, I can more easily attribute the presence of J1 in Italy to all the slaves and immigrants from the Near East who found their way to Roman Italy, and who were present in larger numbers than any Muslim Arabs during medieval times.

Following the same "logic" that you want to apply to Iberia, Sicily and Sardinia, J1 among Serbians is due to Ottoman invasions.

Milovan
06-08-11, 02:31
Phoenicians could have brought some J1 even before the Moores, I know they were J2 and E predominantly but could have had a little J1. it is all throughout the mediterranean and Phoenicians were in the levant. As far as jews there were never mass numbers of them, they were always a drop in the bucket compared to the total population of europe, in my opinion not nearly enough of them to make a dent.

As for Ottoman gene flow into the balkans, I think most middle eastern genes came from ancient times, Phoenicians, possibly Crete and others. Plus the Byzantine empire had many mercenaries of foreign nations, Roman slave trade etc. Putting all kinds of near eastern people into the region. Ottomans did take many european women off to harems, yes, but those children would have been raised as turks and muslim. When serbs and greeks won their independence they chased all turks to Istanbul, Spain with Queen Isabella had coversos the balkans did not. The muslim communities that weren't chased out have a completely seperate identity and most are not turkish speakers.
Having said that I think people blow Moorish influence out of proportion, I( think it's a lot less then most people think. Even though defeated Moores had the chance to convert I think most chose to leave the area or died fighting. Punic wars, Phoenicians, Roman slave trade and many other factors contributed to the region before the Moores were there. If you look at autosomal DNA charts there is not much impact.

LeBrok
06-08-11, 09:00
Following the same "logic" that you apply to Jews, it is quite difficult that it could be due to Arabs in either Iberia, Sicily or Sardinia since it's well known that the number of these foreign invaders was pretty small.

Following your same arbitrary assignations, I can more easily attribute the presence of J1 in Italy to all the slaves and immigrants from the Near East who found their way to Roman Italy, and who were present in larger numbers than any Muslim Arabs during medieval times.

Following the same "logic" that you want to apply to Iberia, Sicily and Sardinia, J1 among Serbians is due to Ottoman invasions.
So..., what would be your hypothesis of genesis of J1 in Iberia? Where did it come from?

Maciamo
06-08-11, 09:20
In my opinion, most of the J1 in Europe is of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin. The spread of J1 goes hand in hand with haplogroups E1b1b and T. All three haplogroups are common in the southern Levant, where agriculture arose, and would have spread via Anatolia, Greece and Italy, and by the intermediary of the numerous historical peoples from these areas. The Phoenicians, Etruscans, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs all contributed to the further dispersal of J1, often reinforcing the frequency in regions already settled by Levantine/Anatolian people during the Neolithic. It is ludicrous to think that only one historical tribe (meaning post-Bronze Age, as historical implies that writing existed) is responsible for the presence of J1, E1b1b or T in any part of Europe.

In Iberia, J1 is obviously a cumulation of Neolithic, Phoenician and Arabic settlements. IMHO, the Neolithic farmers were the main contributors, because the hotspot of J1 in Portugal and Andalusia matches the hotspot of E1b1b, J2 and T, which means that the four of them came together. Considering the proportions, it rules out an Arabic or North African origin, and points rather at a Levantine/Anatolian origin. This hotspot also matches the earliest known Neolithic sites in Iberia.

Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.

The J1 hotspot in Bosnia is almost certainly due to the colonisation of the region by Muslims from Turkey.

The high frequencies of J1 in Greece, Albania and Italy correspond to the high frequencies of J2, G2a, T and E1b1b, which also confirms a Neolithic to Bronze Age Levantine/Anatolian origin (probably not all in one time, but in several waves, some bringing more of one haplogroup than others depending of the exact place of origin; for example, the Etruscans seem to have had more J1, J2 and G2a, but less E1b1b and T, while the Phoenicians appear to have had particularly lots of J1, T and Q by Near-Eastern standards).

how yes no 2
06-08-11, 13:25
J1 in south Spain, Sicily and Sardinia is of course not all of Arabic origin... undoubtedly it was also brought by Phoenicians and Byzantium...

As for Serbs and hotspots in Bosnia,while some of Bosnia muslim families do origin from Turkey, J1 in Serbs and muslims of Bosnia cannot be solely prescribed to Ottomans......e.g. because than it would be accompanied with much larger G component as it is the case in Turkey... I rather think that this somewhat elevated J1 origins from Illyrians....

Hotspots in mountains and woods of Bosnia is logical as those are areas where previous inhabitants would move to get cover from invading armies...

note that spread of J1, E-V13 and J2 is rather flat in Serbs ( in roughly same levels in Bosnia, Serbia and Vojvodina) and not local (as e.g. I2a in Croats is virtually absent in northwest region except in capital)....flat spread indicates earlier admixture...big local variations indicate recent admixtures........reason is that once ethnic group moves to other location what was characterized with local variations is meshed into single mass moving to another location....

small and flat spread of J1 (and E-V13 and J2) in Serbs I relate to Serbs originating from Scordisci/Serdi/Sherdana/Serians/Sart...

in Balkan, according to Strabo, Scordisci are known to have lived mixed with Illyrians.... now if Scordisci got haplogroups E-V13, J2 and J1 on Balkan by living mixed with Illyrians that admixture would have local variations if they stayed on those areas.....but Scordisci have been pushed north (and perhaps west) by spread of Roman empire into future core of Slavic lands
(e.g. Russian primary chronicle speaks of Serbs as one of Danubian Slav tribes that was pushed from area around Danube into north by spread of Vlakhs or romans),
than with movement local hotspots and variations are lost, and when former Serdi/Scordisci returned to Balkan as Serbs they had carried with them rather flat spreads of those haplogroups.....

spongetaro
06-08-11, 15:27
Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.

The Phoenician took part in the tin trade. One of the major Tin trade route was the French river of the Loire and the Rhône

Wilhelm
06-08-11, 16:51
The J1 in Iberia, which is lower than the map shows, it is about 1-2% in South-Spain, not 2.5-5% like in the map, is mostly of Roman origina, because the ratio J1/J2 is most similar to the ratio of italians, not that of Lebanese (the closest living population to Phoenicians)

Knovas
06-08-11, 20:55
Sometimes the colors are difficult to distinguish, but Southern Spain looks 2,5-5% and it isn't. Also, probably between the British, or some parts of UK, it's posible to find 0.5-1%, but there aren't enough samples. I know of J1 cases at 23andme who are British.

LeBrok
04-04-12, 07:52
I've reposted my musings of J1 to this thread, just to be on a record when one day the dust settles and history of J1 migration will be more obvious.

I agree that J1 did most of its moves in Neolithic. When we look at this map below, it shows hot spots on Arabian Peninsula, they are also the diversity centers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Looking at the strongest locations, in sub Sahara and Arabian Peninsula, it makes me think that maybe their success came at the end of ice age and early Neolithic when these regions where greener and moist, excellent for pastoralists.
The diversity and frequency centers, might tell, us that J1 was most successful when connected to the sea. They could have shifted to sea faring peoples in mid Neolithic. First expended through Red Sea, then spread to Mediterranean.
The biggest density of J1 around Mediterranean match roughly Phoenician colonies. Greek colonies contain less J1. The matches or mismatches are not that precise though, therefor it might mean that main spread of J1 around Mediterranean happened before antiquity.

I don't think J1 was much agricultural, carrying first farming into Europe. Actually J1 drops sharply when approaching Fertile Crescent from Arabian Peninsula. Surely it is still strong, but it could have dispersed to the North later. J1 is not continuous, and missing in many fertile places in Europe. If we skip 0.5-1 percentile shade then it exists only by the Mediterranean Sea, except France. It is not a very good candidate for early farmers in my opinion.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif
I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?

Light shade in Central Europe from Germany to Belarus is a mark of huge Jewish community living there for 1000 years, numbered at around 8 million before WWII.

Summarising, J1 in Asia and Africa is early to mid Neolithic, carried by pastoralists during moist climate of that era.
J1 in Europe is mid to late Neolithic brought by sea faring people from Africa and Middle East to the other side of Mediterranean. Some spots in European inland could be attributed to Caucasian and Anatolian tribes, but I'm also leaning to Neolithic movement through Gibraltar of pastoralists or agriculturalists.
Some J1 in Europe is surely Jewish, with obvious and most likely their inclusive, signature in central Europe.

Yetos
04-04-12, 11:17
I've reposted my musings of J1 to this thread, just to be on a record when one day the dust settles and history of J1 migration will be more obvious.

I agree that J1 did most of its moves in Neolithic. When we look at this map below, it shows hot spots on Arabian Peninsula, they are also the diversity centers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_(ADN-Y).PNG

Looking at the strongest locations, in sub Sahara and Arabian Peninsula, it makes me think that maybe their success came at the end of ice age and early Neolithic when these regions where greener and moist, excellent for pastoralists.
The diversity and frequency centers, might tell, us that J1 was most successful when connected to the sea. They could have shifted to sea faring peoples in mid Neolithic. First expended through Red Sea, then spread to Mediterranean.
The biggest density of J1 around Mediterranean match roughly Phoenician colonies. Greek colonies contain less J1. The matches or mismatches are not that precise though, therefor it might mean that main spread of J1 around Mediterranean happened before antiquity.

I don't think J1 was much agricultural, carrying first farming into Europe. Actually J1 drops sharply when approaching Fertile Crescent from Arabian Peninsula. Surely it is still strong, but it could have dispersed to the North later. J1 is not continuous, and missing in many fertile places in Europe. If we skip 0.5-1 percentile shade then it exists only by the Mediterranean Sea, except France. It is not a very good candidate for early farmers in my opinion.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif
I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?

Light shade in Central Europe from Germany to Belarus is a mark of huge Jewish community living there for 1000 years, numbered at around 8 million before WWII.

Summarising, J1 in Asia and Africa is early to mid Neolithic, carried by pastoralists during moist climate of that era.
J1 in Europe is mid to late Neolithic brought by sea faring people from Africa and Middle East to the other side of Mediterranean. Some spots in European inland could be attributed to Caucasian and Anatolian tribes, but I'm also leaning to Neolithic movement through Gibraltar of pastoralists or agriculturalists.
Some J1 in Europe is surely Jewish, with obvious and most likely their inclusive, signature in central Europe.

Lebrok?
how certain we are that J1 is from South Spots (Arabian penunsula- Africa) or from North Spot, south east Caucas?

I ask cause from what I read, and is also my personal believe J1 is Caucasian Hg.
which moved south and the return North as a clear Semitic with the today meaning,

could J1 be origin from Caucas area and moved south? or the opposite?

zanipolo
04-04-12, 13:05
i saw an interesting show on archeology - time team - series called , from constantinople to cornwall.

they found undisturbed phoenician pottery underground in cornwall England dated 500BC. so either that phoenicians traded there directly or trade was done via a relay system. Pheonicians or carthagians means basically the same people, so it could be cartagian.

sparkey
04-04-12, 17:39
i saw an interesting show on archeology - time team - series called , from constantinople to cornwall.

they found undisturbed phoenician pottery underground in cornwall England dated 500BC. so either that phoenicians traded there directly or trade was done via a relay system. Pheonicians or carthagians means basically the same people, so it could be cartagian.

Cornwall had a lot of wealth in metals at that time, and it was an easy place to access by sea. I suspect that the locals could have easily afforded to trade with the also wealthy Phoenicians, or at least received their goods via relay, as you say.

That said, I don't notice any sort of direct genetic impact of the Phoenicians on Cornwall.

hope
04-04-12, 20:11
I think Tyre also came to Britain to trade for "blue" dyes. There is a theory that the biblical book of Ezekiel talks of Tyre and her greatness and the blue and purple dyes she used, obtained from "Elishas" which some think may be an early reference to Britain.

MOESAN
04-04-12, 22:58
Lebrok?
how certain we are that J1 is from South Spots (Arabian penunsula- Africa) or from North Spot, south east Caucas?

I ask cause from what I read, and is also my personal believe J1 is Caucasian Hg.
which moved south and the return North as a clear Semitic with the today meaning,

could J1 be origin from Caucas area and moved south? or the opposite?


Good questions - I red long time ago that central & south arabian populations of today was thought to be got down there from North (in Pittard - les Races et l'Histoire) - if we keep Jews apart, some surprising presence of Y-J1 in parts of Europe out of reach of seafarers could be due to 'northern' J1... (I'm not speaking here about the FAR origin of all these HGs -

LeBrok
05-04-12, 03:53
Lebrok?
how certain we are that J1 is from South Spots (Arabian penunsula- Africa) or from North Spot, south east Caucas?

I ask cause from what I read, and is also my personal believe J1 is Caucasian Hg.
which moved south and the return North as a clear Semitic with the today meaning,

could J1 be origin from Caucas area and moved south? or the opposite?

I'm not sure about that at all, if J1 originated in Caucas it would had to go to Arabian Peninsula 15-10k years ago. I read somewhere that the highest diversity of J1 is in Arabian Peninsula, so I went with this as their starting point.

MOESAN
16-11-12, 21:55
I'm not sure about that at all, if J1 originated in Caucas it would had to go to Arabian Peninsula 15-10k years ago. I read somewhere that the highest diversity of J1 is in Arabian Peninsula, so I went with this as their starting point.

I 'll try to find something serious about J1 within diversity - but the presence of Y-J1 in coutnries very far from Mediterranea and Arabia, in far North and North-East of Europe is questioning - I think they came not all of them from the only semitic regions and that their places of departure was northern enough (S-Caucasus or near), even if mixed with Y-J2 and others; concerning the hotspots of today in S-Arabia/Yemen some last century historians thought a part of the Arabs were came from North (near Eastern) into the Arabia peninsula...
for some places we can think in Phenicians but not everywhere! we need more surveys in a lot of countries with recent enough downstream SNPs to know more -

grandpa broon
09-04-13, 17:29
Thanks for the map, very interesting

Anthro-inclined
09-04-13, 20:31
Thanks for the map, very interesting
I noticed you had just posted a thread on J Mtdna. This paticular thread is about Y-DNA. So the map dosent show the distribution of your Mtdna. Just clarifying, in case you thought that this map was showing Mtdna J1, sorry in advance if you were looking for J1 Y-DNA, and I am sounding stupid for having corrected you when there was no need to.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 16:01
distributions of J1 in Europe are not due to Jewish people who are rather dispersed on large areas, but case of historic migrations of larger ethnic groups ....

in Spain, Sicily and Sardinia it is about Arabic people entering from north Africa...

in France it is brought by Franks (also known as Fruzi/Frugians in Serbo-Croat, e.g. see origin of name mountain Fruska gora )
who brought it from Asia minor as Francs in my opinion origin from Phrygians...note that legend of origin of Francs relates them to Troy..

in fact, hotspot in Belgium also strongly suggests Frankish origin as it is nearby original frankish settlement area...

200AD



in northwest Italy it is brought by Etruscans...in fact, we can even see place from which they departured as a hole in J1 spread in Lydia


in Baltic and northeast Italy it is about Veneti who moved out from Paphlagonia, which is also supported by hole in spread in Paphlagonia ...

in Serbs it is probably due to world empire of I2a Serians stretching from Europe deep into Asia all the way to China and south as far as into Arabian peninsula...
France looks heavy on J1. What is the origin of it?

albanopolis
08-06-13, 16:18
Albania was under Turkish conquest for 500 yrs. It is widely believed that Turks left their genetic legacy in Albania. Could it be that J1+J2a+(some J2b) is the Turkish contribution. Arbereshe, a people of Albanian extraction, living in Italy, originaly from South Albania, show only 3% presence of J2b compared with 20% of Albanians. What is the experts opinion?

Yetos
08-06-13, 16:49
Albania was under Turkish conquest for 500 yrs. It is widely believed that Turks left their genetic legacy in Albania. Could it be that J1+J2a+(some J2b) is the Turkish contribution. Arbereshe, a people of Albanian extraction, living in Italy, originaly from South Albania, show only 3% presence of J2b compared with 20% of Albanians. What is the experts opinion?

J2a has nothing to do with Turk population,

it is high in Crete, in lands that Ottomans never step.

Eldritch
08-06-13, 16:56
J2a is the Anatolian J clade, J2b2 is not , and that's according to Dienekes Pontikos.

J1 is probably some Jewish/Arab legacy.

Luan
08-06-13, 19:19
Albania was under Turkish conquest for 500 yrs. It is widely believed that Turks left their genetic legacy in Albania. Could it be that J1+J2a+(some J2b) is the Turkish contribution. Arbereshe, a people of Albanian extraction, living in Italy, originaly from South Albania, show only 3% presence of J2b compared with 20% of Albanians. What is the experts opinion?
Not in north Albania, do to the Laws of Lek Dukagjini which the turks considered it barbaric had the most atonomy and were the most resistance against the turks, and the north is most mountains. So I dont think it came from turks.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 21:29
Not in north Albania, do to the Laws of Lek Dukagjini which the turks considered it barbaric had the most atonomy and were the most resistance against the turks, and the north is most mountains. So I dont think it came from turks.
They had Garrisons in Shkoder, North Albania. They had many garrisons in the South. Their genetic contribution is significant. Since we have many common Genes we them, many are hard to detect. But I am suspicious of high G haplogroup in south, J+J1+J2a. It seams that J2b is native there.

adamo
08-06-13, 21:58
What d you mean, J2a has nothing to do with Turks? It's the predominant middle eastern J2 Clade, and it is found in Cretans, ad Turks as well.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 22:04
What d you mean, J2a has nothing to do with Turks? It's the predominant middle eastern J2 Clade, and it is found in Cretans, ad Turks as well.

I mean Turkey is 25% J2a+J and 10% J1 and 12% G. In Arbereshe population they were all missing. Arbereshe were Albanians that escaped Turks.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 22:07
The fact that Greeks are J2a majority does not change the equation. Greeks and Turks have lived side by side for 10 000 years in Anatolia. The exchange of genes is normal. Albanians have always bee two countries away from them.

adamo
08-06-13, 23:02
The Greeks have the highest J2b frequencies, J2b characterizes Greco-Albanians so when speaking of Greeks and J2, remember them as well. J2b is very scarce in the Middle East even turkey, very rare.

Eldritch
08-06-13, 23:09
Greeks are mostly J2a

adamo
08-06-13, 23:16
Yes, and they have the majority of the worlds J2b along with albania sand north-central Italians.

adamo
08-06-13, 23:18
J2a in Greece is middle eastern blood, J2b is characteristically Greco-Albanian, but once upon a time obviously, it came from the Middle East as well before mutating in the southern Balkans.

Yetos
08-06-13, 23:40
The fact that Greeks are J2a majority does not change the equation. Greeks and Turks have lived side by side for 10 000 years in Anatolia. The exchange of genes is normal. Albanians have always bee two countries away from them.

you are so dump.

Turks came at 1000 AD from central Asian Steppes,
they did not existed before, and mostly stay around Cilikia,

All J2 in minor asia and Europe are either from times of Vinca Culture, either from iron age,

Yetos
08-06-13, 23:42
The Greeks have the highest J2b frequencies, J2b characterizes Greco-Albanians so when speaking of Greeks and J2, remember them as well. J2b is very scarce in the Middle East even turkey, very rare.


again you are dump,

J2b is spread from France to Africa to India, in Indo-Iranian populations how much J2b exist,
and how much J2b have Roma populations?

Yetos
08-06-13, 23:46
J2a in Greece is middle eastern blood, J2b is characteristically Greco-Albanian, but once upon a time obviously, it came from the Middle East as well before mutating in the southern Balkans.

many J2a are considered Greco-Anatolian. and some J2axxx as Greek mark

it has been found in bgger numbers in ancient populations in Greece.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 00:12
you are so dump.

Turks came at 1000 AD from central Asian Steppes,
they did not existed before, and mostly stay around Cilikia,

All J2 in minor asia and Europe are either from times of Vinca Culture, either from iron age,
Some of them came at the time you mentioning. Others have always been there. The one that came at that time I guess were haplogroups N,Q,L,H,G of eastern asia. But J, J1,J2 you can't say were not there from the begining of time. Why you get nervous when I say you have exchanged genes with Turks. I am convinced Albanians carry a lot of them, I just need some help to estimate how much. Greeks share must be triple of that Albanians share for the reason that Greeks shared the same space with them, and there were Turkish colonies all over greece before the revolution. But I am not interested in how much of the genes Greeks and Turks share, I am interested in an educated approximation of how much Albanians share.

Eldritch
09-06-13, 00:25
Turkes cluster far from any Balkan group.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 00:31
Turkes cluster far from any Balkan group.
Does that mean that their J2a or G2a or J1 is different from ballkans?

albanopolis
09-06-13, 00:36
I would say that the phenotype of 20% of Albanians is the same like Anatolians. They are dark by any standard. They could be christians, muslims or aromanians. Aromanians display a wide range of skin colour. From real pale nordic type to real dark dravidian type. My guess is that Turks could largely be responsable for that. Dark skin could be J1 FOR INSTANCE.

kamani
09-06-13, 04:58
I would say that the phenotype of 20% of Albanians is the same like Anatolians. They are dark by any standard. They could be christians, muslims or aromanians. Aromanians display a wide range of skin colour. From real pale nordic type to real dark dravidian type. My guess is that Turks could largely be responsable for that. Dark skin could be J1 FOR INSTANCE.

Autosomally, an Albanian is just as close to a Turk as to a French person, so it is not that close considering that Turkey is much closer in kilometers. There seems to be a genetical barrier at the border between Greece and Turkey.
So to answer your question, I don't believe Turks have left much genes in Albania. The olive skin phenotype has been in Southern-Europe since forever. I know this is going to dissapoint a lot of Albanian idiots who want to claim Turkish ancestry, but sorry, truth is they're not much Turkish.

adamo
09-06-13, 05:07
Other than within the J2a of Albanians there is middle eastern blood....

Yetos
09-06-13, 07:47
Some of them came at the time you mentioning. Others have always been there. The one that came at that time I guess were haplogroups N,Q,L,H,G of eastern asia. But J, J1,J2 you can't say were not there from the begining of time. Why you get nervous when I say you have exchanged genes with Turks. I am convinced Albanians carry a lot of them, I just need some help to estimate how much. Greeks share must be triple of that Albanians share for the reason that Greeks shared the same space with them, and there were Turkish colonies all over greece before the revolution. But I am not interested in how much of the genes Greeks and Turks share, I am interested in an educated approximation of how much Albanians share.

again you are dump.

you are confusing Turks with pre-Turkish populations,

native in minor Asia does not mean Turk.

don't mix modern ethnicities with ancient ones,

and for your info, Crete is a place that Ottomans have 0% but heavily J2a,

search better

The Altaic component is very heavy in Albania, at top positions
that means they share enough Turkic, don't mess Turkic with Turkish,

Turkey especially West and North Parts, have small original turkish genes,
Read some Byzantine History.


on the other hand
@ Kamani

what do you know about the migration of Bektas people in Albania?
all Bektas followers moved to Albania when exciled from Ottomans.
meaning that there was a quite modern devastation from minor Asia to ALbania.

kamani
09-06-13, 09:18
@ Kamani

what do you know about the migration of Bektas people in Albania?
all Bektas followers moved to Albania when exciled from Ottomans.
meaning that there was a quite modern devastation from minor Asia to ALbania.

dude, you're not going to throw some names in there as usual and pretend you have an argument. Greece is right next door to Turkey, today autosomally you're closer to them than Albanians are, get over it.

binx
09-06-13, 15:38
What d you mean, J2a has nothing to do with Turks? It's the predominant middle eastern J2 Clade, and it is found in Cretans, ad Turks as well.

Ethnic Turks are not J2a.

binx
09-06-13, 15:45
.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?


I'm asking myself the same. There are also big spot in Spain and Portugal.

Maciamo, are there new study about J1 in Europe? In France, Italy, Spain?

This map on which studies is based on?

Eldritch
09-06-13, 16:00
Ethnic Turks are not J2a.
J2a is Greco-Anatolian, if by ethnic Turks you mean the central asian ones then i agree.

binx
09-06-13, 16:05
J2a is Greco-Anatolian, if by ethnic Turks you mean the central asian ones then i agree.

Yes, It's what I meant.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 21:16
Autosomally, an Albanian is just as close to a Turk as to a French person, so it is not that close considering that Turkey is much closer in kilometers. There seems to be a genetical barrier at the border between Greece and Turkey.
So to answer your question, I don't believe Turks have left much genes in Albania. The olive skin phenotype has been in Southern-Europe since forever. I know this is going to dissapoint a lot of Albanian idiots who want to claim Turkish ancestry, but sorry, truth is they're not much Turkish.

Its not about claiming Turkish ancestry. I wish we did not have that ancestry. But unfortunately we do have it. Every occupation does not go peacefully. You have stories women jumping from the cliff not to fall on the occupiers hands. What about the woman that did not jump? The presence of J1, G2a, T, J2a in Albania is a gift from the conquest. Our original population did not have it. If they had it, it shold have been in Arberehe too. They probably left R1b too but thats hard to detect. I am not talking about olive skin. I am talking about dark skin among Albanians. My estimate is it could be 20%.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 21:30
again you are dump.

you are confusing Turks with pre-Turkish populations,

native in minor Asia does not mean Turk.

don't mix modern ethnicities with ancient ones,

and for your info, Crete is a place that Ottomans have 0% but heavily J2a,

search better

The Altaic component is very heavy in Albania, at top positions
that means they share enough Turkic, don't mess Turkic with Turkish,

Turkey especially West and North Parts, have small original turkish genes,
Read some Byzantine History.


on the other hand
@ Kamani

what do you know about the migration of Bektas people in Albania?
all Bektas followers moved to Albania when exciled from Ottomans.
meaning that there was a quite modern devastation from minor Asia to ALbania.
With Turks I mean the residents of present day Turkey. The one you are mentioning are OTOMANS. They were of Mongolic stock. The last centuary Turkey is a mixed population. Up to 1922 Turks and Greeks lived side by side in the same space, namely Anatolia. There were 600 000 Turks settled in Grece ( out of 3 milion Greek population). Athens had a large chunk of Turks, Peloponesis did, Salonica and more. After 1922 they were all expelled to Turkey. There were 2 milion Greeks in Anatolia. They were expelled to Greece. So you are trying to make me believe that even they lived together in the same towns for milleniums they did not mix. I don't by it. If you want to believe it yourself, that's fine, but you are kidding yourself. As for Bectas, they are a muslim sect, a hybrid between islam and chritianity. I am one of them, and I am not forbidden to drink by Bektash religion, I don't have to pray 5 times a day, I can even marry a christian if the girl is beautifull.

zanipolo
09-06-13, 21:38
With Turks I mean the residents of present day Turkey. The one you are mentioning are OTOMANS. They were of Mongolic stock. The last centuary Turkey is a mixed population. Up to 1922 Turks and Greeks lived side by side in the same space, namely Anatolia. There were 600 000 Turks settled in Grece ( out of 3 milion Greek population). Athens had a large chunk of Turks, Peloponesis did, Salonica and more. After 1922 they were all expelled to Turkey. There were 2 milion Greeks in Anatolia. They were expelled to Greece. So you are trying to make me believe that even they lived together in the same towns for milleniums they did not mix. I don't by it. If you want to believe it yourself, that's fine, but you are kidding yourself. As for Bectas, they are a muslim sect, a hybrid between islam and chritianity. I am one of them, and I am not forbidden to drink by Bektash religion, I don't have to pray 5 times a day, I can even marry a christian if the girl is beautifull.

when J1 etc moved from middle-east/anatolia to balkans, italy,etc there was no Turkic people in turkey. The turks only arrived around 1500 years ago in modern turkey. Do you know what you are talking about?

zanipolo
09-06-13, 21:40
Its not about claiming Turkish ancestry. I wish we did not have that ancestry. But unfortunately we do have it. Every occupation does not go peacefully. You have stories women jumping from the cliff not to fall on the occupiers hands. What about the woman that did not jump? The presence of J1, G2a, T, J2a in Albania is a gift from the conquest. Our original population did not have it. If they had it, it shold have been in Arberehe too. They probably left R1b too but thats hard to detect. I am not talking about olive skin. I am talking about dark skin among Albanians. My estimate is it could be 20%.


LOL

these markers where in the balkans before greeks, romans, thracians and illyrians even existed. Stop using today's borders for genetic movement

zanipolo
09-06-13, 21:46
I'm asking myself the same. There are also big spot in Spain and Portugal.

Maciamo, are there new study about J1 in Europe? In France, Italy, Spain?

This map on which studies is based on?

re: france.....Is it some type of trading ventures of centuries up the Rhone river via the 'greek" city of Marseille or maybe Phoenician.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 22:01
LOL

these markers where in the balkans before greeks, romans, thracians and illyrians even existed. Stop using today's borders for genetic movement

Genes are no like wind that cam move freely where they want. Genes are people. 80% of Arabs are J1. So J1 or Arab can be used inerchangebly. Had J1 been there, Arbereshe too would have had some. They don't. All Arbereshe did was, they moved to Italy when Turks came. So it means J1 was brought to Albania by Turks. Turks cluster 10 J1. The borders are not some fiction lines. They were created on something.

Eldritch
09-06-13, 22:19
Albanopolis probably J1 is Arab in majority but i disagree about the other Y-DNA lines which are mostly old in the area.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 22:30
Albanopolis probably J1 is Arab in majority but i disagree about the other Y-DNA lines which are mostly old in the area.
I suspect that particularly J1 was brought to the area from Turkey. Turks cluster 10% J1. Also G in the area was brought by Turks. Turks have 10% G too. I draw the conclusions comparing Arbereshe with south Albanians where they originate. Both Albanians and Arbereshe have the same amount of E,I, R1a. We differ in J and G.

Yetos
09-06-13, 23:33
With Turks I mean the residents of present day Turkey. The one you are mentioning are OTOMANS. They were of Mongolic stock. The last centuary Turkey is a mixed population. Up to 1922 Turks and Greeks lived side by side in the same space, namely Anatolia. There were 600 000 Turks settled in Grece ( out of 3 milion Greek population). Athens had a large chunk of Turks, Peloponesis did, Salonica and more. After 1922 they were all expelled to Turkey. There were 2 milion Greeks in Anatolia. They were expelled to Greece. So you are trying to make me believe that even they lived together in the same towns for milleniums they did not mix. I don't by it. If you want to believe it yourself, that's fine, but you are kidding yourself. As for Bectas, they are a muslim sect, a hybrid between islam and chritianity. I am one of them, and I am not forbidden to drink by Bektash religion, I don't have to pray 5 times a day, I can even marry a christian if the girl is beautifull.


the numbers you are posting are incorrect,

Bektash people livned in today Turkey and moved to Albania, since you are one of them, you know when and how and why.
Bektash are mostly Turko-Iranian population,
only in Pontus the Ottoman empire counted 6 million Greeks. from kastamone to Lazoi (Castamonu Laz)

Bektash is an Islamic heresy. so don't tell us about Atheism in Albania.

J1 is also strong evidence oof hebrew population,

about G in Balkans
I am G2a3* L90.

G2 is pure palaiolithic in Balkans, its History is written in Sesklo/Dimini.
in Makedonia and Thessaly reach >10% and in Epiros 8% with spoted areas reach >14%
it is older than any other HG in Balkans and we find in mountains,
it is high in mountainous populations all over Europe
due to that some connect it with mining,

The absence of G in some Albanian populations is cause their nativity is small with area.

G2a is the oldest native HG in Balkans, and probably one of the 1rst (if not the first) that enter Europe

ETRUSCANS TOMP REVEALE G2a

VINCA CULTURE HAD G2a FOR CERTAIN

G2a is diviided in 2 major packs,
1. the Alpen one ,
2. The Greco-Anatolian one

Alans and Hazzars and Eskenazy Jews also share G but not of the above packs.

albanopolis
10-06-13, 00:00
the numbers you are posting are incorrect,

Bektash people livned in today Turkey and moved to Albania, since you are one of them, you know when and how and why.
Bektash are mostly Turko-Iranian population,
only in Pontus the Ottoman empire counted 6 million Greeks. from kastamone to Lazoi (Castamonu Laz)

Bektash is an Islamic heresy. so don't tell us about Atheism in Albania.

J1 is also strong evidence oof hebrew population,

about G in Balkans
I am G2a3* L90.

G2 is pure palaiolithic in Balkans, its History is written in Sesklo/Dimini.
in Makedonia and Thessaly reach >10% and in Epiros 8%
it is older than any other HG in Balkans and we find in mountains,
it is high in mountainous populations all over Europe
due to that some connect it with mining,

The absence of G in Albanian populations is cause their nativity is small with area.

G2a is the oldest native HG in Balkans, and probably one of the 1rst (if not the first) that enter Europe

ETRUSCANS TOMP REVEALE G2a

VINCA CULTURE HAD G2a FOR CERTAIN

G2a is diviided in 2 major packs,
1. the Alpen one ,
2. The Greco-Anatolian one

Alans and Hazzars and Eskenazy Jews also share G but not of the above packs.

Bektash is not a people. Its a muslim religios sect. The way orthodoxy is not a people, its a religion. Bektash were trying to pacify the christians converting to muslim religion. Christians were not comfortable with some muslim restrictions like forbiding alcohool. So Bectashi sect allowed it. They wanted to marry woman from other religions so Bectashi allowed it, and many more.... If you believe that Bectashi is a kind of people then you are misinformed or confused. You are right about Etruscans being G2a, It turns out Etruscans came To Etruria from the place we call Turkey. So you are reinforcing my view that indeed Haplogroup G in Albania is a Turkish affair.

Yetos
10-06-13, 01:07
Bektash is not a people. Its a muslim religios sect. The way orthodoxy is not a people, its a religion. Bektash were trying to pacify the christians converting to muslim religion. Christians were not comfortable with some muslim restrictions like forbiding alcohool. So Bectashi sect allowed it. They wanted to marry woman from other religions so Bectashi allowed it, and many more.... If you believe that Bectashi is a kind of people then you are misinformed or confused. You are right about Etruscans being G2a, It turns out Etruscans came To Etruria from the place we call Turkey. So you are reinforcing my view that indeed Haplogroup G in Albania is a Turkish affair.

about G Hg
naming it Turkish you are naming as after 1071 Ad Hg which is wrong.

G2a in Aegean Albania Balkans and minor Asia is the Greco-Anatolian part
G2a in Swiss Austria is the Alpen part.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURKISH POPULATION.

about Bektas

is Turkish vocabulary after Bek +Tas = strong rock
Bektas is a toponyme an area in Pontus Black Mountains Μελαν Ορος near Κερασους Turkish Giresun.

Haji Bektas Weli was a Persian (or Turkish to some) that created an Islamic Heresy at 1200 AD that Turks accepted especially in the Cappadokia and Pontus mountains. (desili area)

he and Haji Ahmad Yasavi are the founder of Alevi and Bektasi-Sufi heresy in Ottomans,

in 1826 Bektashi people (babas dervish dede) were under hunt after Mahmud 2nd, and they found refugee in Albania and Kossovo.
remember the excile of Bektashi people from Goztepe Con/polis to Kossovo.

unknown population moved from Thrace Bithynia Pontus Cappadokia Kastamone to Albania and Kossovo to be safe from the Suni hunt. at least 7 tekke-Villages left only from around Con/polis.

later at 1925 Kemal Attaturk Forbit all Bektas religion activities and a second wave left and Move to Tirana, (search why Ιismael Vlore almost broke with Kemal that time)
the second wave was mostly from Bithynia (Anadolu),
remember HaciBektas town in Anadolu modern Turkey.

so don't tell about no Turk ever step in Albania.
the headquarters of all over world Bektashi people is Tirana, though the Heresy started in Iran/Persia.

besides
ALL YENISARIES WERE BEKTASHI SUFI IN RELIGION,
so Mahmud 2nd was afraid of them.
as also Kemal.
Bektashi religion in Balkans at Suleiman's the magnificent times was a Mark of Manisa (Μαγνησια) trained Yenisaries.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 01:11
about G Hg
naming Turkish you are naming as after 1146 Ad Hg

G2a in Aegean Albania Balkans and minor Asia is the Greco-Anatolian part
G2a in Swiss Austria is the Alpen part.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURKISH POPULATION.

we try to tell him, but he does not realise that modern people in some modern countries arrived not that long ago.

It would be better if we had some sort of genetic maps for these people. a map fro bronze-age, another for iron-age, another for end of roman empire aetc

Eldritch
10-06-13, 01:21
Some serious misinformation going on here!

Yetos
10-06-13, 02:02
@ Zanipolo.
i see new avatar.

he is trying to search and combine HGs but he is lost using modern names of nationalities.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 03:01
@ Zanipolo.
i see new avatar.

he is trying to search and combine HGs but he is lost using modern names of nationalities.

yes, needed a change of avatar .......still searching............i might put my COA .......hehehehe

albanopolis
10-06-13, 03:31
about G Hg
naming it Turkish you are naming as after 1071 Ad Hg which is wrong.

G2a in Aegean Albania Balkans and minor Asia is the Greco-Anatolian part
G2a in Swiss Austria is the Alpen part.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TURKISH POPULATION.

about Bektas

is Turkish vocabulary after Bek +Tas = strong rock
Bektas is a toponyme an area in Pontus Black Mountains Μελαν Ορος near Κερασους Turkish Giresun.

Haji Bektas Weli was a Persian (or Turkish to some) that created an Islamic Heresy at 1200 AD that Turks accepted especially in the Cappadokia and Pontus mountains. (desili area)

he and Haji Ahmad Yasavi are the founder of Alevi and Bektasi-Sufi heresy in Ottomans,

in 1826 Bektashi people (babas dervish dede) were under hunt after Mahmud 2nd, and they found refugee in Albania and Kossovo.
remember the excile of Bektashi people from Goztepe Con/polis to Kossovo.

unknown population moved from Thrace Bithynia Pontus Cappadokia Kastamone to Albania and Kossovo to be safe from the Suni hunt. at least 7 tekke-Villages left only from around Con/polis.

later at 1925 Kemal Attaturk Forbit all Bektas religion activities and a second wave left and Move to Tirana, (search why Ιismael Vlore almost broke with Kemal that time)
the second wave was mostly from Bithynia (Anadolu),
remember HaciBektas town in Anadolu modern Turkey.

so don't tell about no Turk ever step in Albania.
the headquarters of all over world Bektashi people is Tirana, though the Heresy started in Iran/Persia.

besides
ALL YENISARIES WERE BEKTASHI SUFI IN RELIGION,
so Mahmud 2nd was afraid of them.
as also Kemal.
Bektashi religion in Balkans at Suleiman's the magnificent times was a Mark of Manisa (Μαγνησια) trained Yenisaries.

So, since I am a Bektashis I am a Turk, too? Thanks for telling me, I did not know that!!!
Just courious, are you making stuff up, or what you saying is written in the books you read?:confused2:

albanopolis
10-06-13, 03:45
we try to tell him, but he does not realise that modern people in some modern countries arrived not that long ago.

It would be better if we had some sort of genetic maps for these people. a map fro bronze-age, another for iron-age, another for end of roman empire aetc
You don't need to tell me anything. Large part of Turkish population have always been there, Only Mongolic part of them came latter. It was not like, Anatoloa was empty and one mornig surprize,surprize, Turks came. Thats your view, not the reality. Large parts of todays Turks are in fact muslim Greeks. Since you admit that haplo J2a is Greek, about 30% of todays Turks are J2a, which translated in ethnicity means muslim Greeks. Haplogroups R1a, E, I are Ballkanic people who settled in Turkey. Thats why Turkish Dna and Greek are very close. If you are courious check the DNA of Cypriots, Greek and Turkish part of Cypro and you see what is happening there.

kamani
10-06-13, 04:51
Large parts of todays Turks are in fact muslim Greeks.

They might be muslim Trojans. ;-)

adamo
10-06-13, 04:57
Are you on drugs everything you say is stupid albano polis, I know I am

zanipolo
10-06-13, 05:09
You don't need to tell me anything. Large part of Turkish population have always been there, Only Mongolic part of them came latter. It was not like, Anatoloa was empty and one mornig surprize,surprize, Turks came. Thats your view, not the reality. Large parts of todays Turks are in fact muslim Greeks. Since you admit that haplo J2a is Greek, about 30% of todays Turks are J2a, which translated in ethnicity means muslim Greeks. Haplogroups R1a, E, I are Ballkanic people who settled in Turkey. Thats why Turkish Dna and Greek are very close. If you are courious check the DNA of Cypriots, Greek and Turkish part of Cypro and you see what is happening there.


if these people have always been in turkey before the turkic people arrived, then they are not genetically turkish.

you mean some ancient greeks that they behind in turkey eventually became turks. Does this really count?

one day all europe might be chinese too

Yetos
10-06-13, 09:14
So, since I am a Bektashis I am a Turk, too? Thanks for telling me, I did not know that!!!
Just courious, are you making stuff up, or what you saying is written in the books you read?:confused2:

why you put words in my mouth,

Did I say that?

it is clear and obvious what I said,

Yetos
10-06-13, 09:20
@ Albanopolis,

E Hg came to Balkans from Minor Asia, (Konya 2000 BC)

today minor Asia is Turkey,

so E-V13 is Turkish,

how about that?

is that the correct logic?


or Hettits were in Turkey so they were Turks,
or that logic is Correct?

Eldritch
10-06-13, 11:57
@ Albanopolis,

E Hg came to Balkans from Minor Asia, (Konya 2000 BC)

today minor Asia is Turkey,

so E-V13 is Turkish,

how about that?

is that the correct logic?


or Hettits were in Turkey so they were Turks,
or that logic is Correct?
E-V13 comes from minor Asia?
I wasn't aware of that.

albanopolis
10-06-13, 15:38
They might be muslim Trojans. ;-)
Check DNA of Cyprus and you will laugh. Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots are identical. The wall seperating both communities looks crazy than ever. Identical people see themselves different. Greek Cypriots cluster so close with Turkish Cypriots that genetists are fighting among each other, if Turlish Cypriots are Muslim Greeks or Greek Cypriots are Helenized Turks. Absolutely sister countries.

albanopolis
17-10-13, 05:00
[QUOTE=Maciamo;377284]In my opinion, most of the J1 in Europe is of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin. The spread of J1 goes hand in hand with haplogroups E1b1b and T. All three haplogroups are common in the southern Levant, where agriculture arose, and would have spread via Anatolia, Greece and Italy, and by the intermediary of the numerous historical peoples from these areas. The Phoenicians, Etruscans, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs all contributed to the further dispersal of J1, often reinforcing the frequency in regions already settled by Levantine/Anatolian people during the Neolithic. It is ludicrous to think that only one historical tribe (meaning post-Bronze Age, as historical implies that writing existed) is responsible for the presence of J1, E1b1b or T in any part of Europe.

In Iberia, J1 is obviously a cumulation of Neolithic, Phoenician and Arabic settlements. IMHO, the Neolithic farmers were the main contributors, because the hotspot of J1 in Portugal and Andalusia matches the hotspot of E1b1b, J2 and T, which means that the four of them came together. Considering the proportions, it rules out an Arabic or North African origin, and points rather at a Levantine/Anatolian origin. This hotspot also matches the earliest known Neolithic sites in Iberia.

Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.

The J1 hotspot in Bosnia is almost certainly due to the colonisation of the region by Muslims from Turkey.

The high frequencies of J1 in Greece, Albania and Italy correspond to the high frequencies of J2, G2a, T and E1b1b, which also confirms a Neolithic to Bronze Age Levantine/Anatolian origin (probably not all in one time, but in several waves, some bringing more of one haplogroup than others depending of the exact place of origin; for example, the Etruscans seem to have had more J1, J2 and G2a, but less E1b1b and T, while the Phoenicians appear to have had particularly lots of J1, T and Q by Near-Eastern standards).[/QUOTE
From what I see in the map, a possible source of J1 in Albania at least, could be the Gypsy population. I notice that Hungarians have a hotspot, so do Romanians, Bulgarians that have a considerable gypsy presence. Since Gypsies originate in India they crossed arabian peninsola at some point.

Sile
17-10-13, 05:59
[QUOTE=Maciamo;377284]In my opinion, most of the J1 in Europe is of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin. The spread of J1 goes hand in hand with haplogroups E1b1b and T. All three haplogroups are common in the southern Levant, where agriculture arose, and would have spread via Anatolia, Greece and Italy, and by the intermediary of the numerous historical peoples from these areas. The Phoenicians, Etruscans, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs all contributed to the further dispersal of J1, often reinforcing the frequency in regions already settled by Levantine/Anatolian people during the Neolithic. It is ludicrous to think that only one historical tribe (meaning post-Bronze Age, as historical implies that writing existed) is responsible for the presence of J1, E1b1b or T in any part of Europe.

In Iberia, J1 is obviously a cumulation of Neolithic, Phoenician and Arabic settlements. IMHO, the Neolithic farmers were the main contributors, because the hotspot of J1 in Portugal and Andalusia matches the hotspot of E1b1b, J2 and T, which means that the four of them came together. Considering the proportions, it rules out an Arabic or North African origin, and points rather at a Levantine/Anatolian origin. This hotspot also matches the earliest known Neolithic sites in Iberia.

Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.

The J1 hotspot in Bosnia is almost certainly due to the colonisation of the region by Muslims from Turkey.

The high frequencies of J1 in Greece, Albania and Italy correspond to the high frequencies of J2, G2a, T and E1b1b, which also confirms a Neolithic to Bronze Age Levantine/Anatolian origin (probably not all in one time, but in several waves, some bringing more of one haplogroup than others depending of the exact place of origin; for example, the Etruscans seem to have had more J1, J2 and G2a, but less E1b1b and T, while the Phoenicians appear to have had particularly lots of J1, T and Q by Near-Eastern standards).[/QUOTE
From what I see in the map, a possible source of J1 in Albania at least, could be the Gypsy population. I notice that Hungarians have a hotspot, so do Romanians, Bulgarians that have a considerable gypsy presence. Since Gypsies originate in India they crossed arabian peninsola at some point.

This southern levant theory of yours for T as being with J1 and E1b1b does not seem logical. If they where there together at the same time, then they would be in the balkans together. But T arrived in levant/Egypt/africa later than E. my guess it was residing in the northern levant and might have filled some void in southern lands after people already migrated. I can only imagine the initial interest for T was in the triangle of persian gulf, black sea and caspian sea in very early times. Basically what I am saying is that T was in anatolia far far earlier than in southern Levant or Egypt.
Remember the Phoenicians are northern levant people.
I envisage that T and J2 traveled with G2 into europe. I believe they where the early HGathers who became traders and farmers later

adamo
17-10-13, 06:02
Haplogroup T is actually older in the levant than in anatolia

Sile
18-10-13, 18:26
Haplogroup T is actually older in the levant than in anatolia

Yes it is , but only the northern levant and not the southern levant. This is due to babylonian trade with the north ( assyria, phoenicia etc) , while the south ( israel) hebrews and palestianians was always invaded by baylonians. The one time mass group of 10000 prisoners carried to babylonia was around the year 500BC.

Dianatomia
18-10-13, 19:56
Check DNA of Cyprus and you will laugh. Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots are identical. The wall seperating both communities looks crazy than ever. Identical people see themselves different. Greek Cypriots cluster so close with Turkish Cypriots that genetists are fighting among each other, if Turlish Cypriots are Muslim Greeks or Greek Cypriots are Helenized Turks. Absolutely sister countries.

And since Greeks don't have the newly arrived haplogroups from Central Asia in them, it means that Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots are muslim and christian Cypriots who were all Greek before the Turkish arrival.

The same is true for Greece. Yes, there were 600.000 muslims out of a 3-4 million population that were deported to Turkey from Greece. But the fact is that these people were mostly turcofied Greeks. Much like the Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina are actually Balkan Slavs and not Turks.

In the Ottoman empire conversion was a one way street. Turks were not Hellenized. That was an anathema.

Same is true for Armenians. They lived among the Turks for centuries, but like the Greeks they don't have any newly arrived central asian haplogroup in them. They are close to modern Turks though, because the Ottomans Turcofied many Armenians.

As for the Albanians, the muslim Albanians may have intermarried with Turks, but they would inherit mostly old Anatolian genes. Genes which were quite identical to the Greeks to begin with. Bosniaks may have mixed with Turks too, but like Albanians they would inherit mostly Anatolian genes which were once Greek, Hitite, Armenian.

albanopolis
18-10-13, 21:08
Albanian-Turkish intermarrieges have happened all the time, but they chose to stay in Turkey. Economically Albania was a hell compared to Turkey. Even Albanians went to Istambul to make money. Many never came back. As bad as it was it had something good for Albanian proper. It remained clean of Turkish genes. Had they left their genes Mongolic haplogroups should have been present among Albanians. I mean haplo Q, N,. Even J2a which is predominant among Turks is low in Albania.

Alexandros
19-11-13, 21:49
Yes indeed autosomal genetics show that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots are largely indistinguishable genetically. Regarding the rhetorical question that you pose whether Turkish Cypriots are Muslim Greeks or Greek Cypriots are Hellenized Turks, the answer is pretty obvious. It is the former and the evidence is below:

1. Greeks have been present in Cyprus since the 12th century BC, while Turks only arrived in 1571 AD. That is almost 3000 later and just 400 years ago. Check a nice map of Iron Age Cyprus below:

http://explorethemed.com/IACyprus.asp?c=1

2. During the Ottoman rule of Cyprus (1571-1878), special benefits were given to the oppressed Cypriots who chose to convert from Christianity to Islam. They paid less taxes and had a more humane treatment overall. This forced a substantial number of Greek Cypriots to temporarily 'switch' to Islam. When the British took control of Cyprus in 1878, many of these individuals asked from the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Cyprus to accept them to convert back to Christianity, but he was so 'open-minded' as to refuse them. Thus they remained permanently in the Turkish Cypriot community of the island. All these are documented in historical texts and manuscripts.

3. A paper by Cruciani et al (2007), found the frequency of E-V13 reaching 10% among Turkish Cypriots. This settles the issue once for good, unless someone believes that E-V13 is a Turkish marker and not a Greek/Balkan marker.

As Albanopolis states, however, I agree that the division of the island seems even more irrational now..

Peace365
05-01-14, 16:35
Dianatomia soy said :"Same is true for Armenians. They lived among the Turks for centuries, but like the Greeks they don't have any newly arrived central asian haplogroup in them"

is there a research for every one of them?? or just some sided and relative reseaches which are made on 50-100 people?

Peace365
05-01-14, 16:47
"1. Greeks have been present in Cyprus since the 12th century BC, while Turks only arrived in 1571 AD. That is almost 3000 later and just 400 years ago."

not true,why you considering only Ottomans as Turks? why don't you mention the Mamluk conquest of cyprus?Mamluks were kipchak-oguz turks.

"2. ..When the British took control of Cyprus in 1878, many of these individuals asked from the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Cyprus to accept them to convert back to Christianity, but he was so 'open-minded' as to refuse them. Thus they remained permanently in the Turkish Cypriot community of the island. All these are documented in historical texts and manuscripts. "

could you give any of that texts and manuscripts? and any evidence for your claims?

"3. A paper by Cruciani et al (2007), found the frequency of E-V13 reaching 10% among Turkish Cypriots" is that paper is a research on all turkish cypriots,or just 50-60 persons of them?

Peace365
05-01-14, 16:51
albanopolis
please try to admit the facts wthout any nationalistic emotions and motivations,the history of humanity doesn't walks with that way

dnoone
08-02-15, 11:18
Do you think anyone is stupid enough to believe anymore that the nazis killed millions of Jews? Jews moved on to bless the middle east.

matbir
08-02-15, 12:34
"1. Greeks have been present in Cyprus since the 12th century BC, while Turks only arrived in 1571 AD. That is almost 3000 later and just 400 years ago."

not true,why you considering only Ottomans as Turks? why don't you mention the Mamluk conquest of cyprus?Mamluks were kipchak-oguz turks.
This statement needs clarification. Mameluks were divided in two dynasties first Bahri (1250-1382) had Kipchak origin, while second Burji (1382-1517) was of Cricassian origin. Cyprus was never conquered by Mameluks but had become tributary state in 1426. So it is correct to say that Turks arrived in Cyprus in 1571.

giuseppe rossi
04-04-15, 11:19
I really wonder if Maciamo has included those figures from Capelli et al 2009 for this map....

I really doubt it....

http://i48.tinypic.com/1pijq1.jpg

suebiking
10-04-15, 15:59
can you give the link to capelli et al 2009