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View Full Version : Appearance of Sicilians relative to other Mediterraneans? (poll included)



oreo_cookie
05-08-11, 17:02
Other than continental Italians whom they share much with, which other group do they look more similar to as a rule? I gave you 5 options.

Scandinavians (Danes, Swedes)
Spanish/Portuguese
Greeks
Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia)
Levant (Lebanon, Syria)
North Africans


Some pictures;

http://press.benettongroup.com/ben_en/images/stock/cat_corl_cover.jpghttp://www.lankelot.eu/sites/default/files/ettore_spiaggia.jpghttp://www.rootsworld.com/live/muso-mich.jpghttp://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/world/77281d1300743733-who-do-sicilians-look-like-you-bowling-my-sicilian-family.jpghttp://www.fadingad.com/blog/brooklyn/st_pats/sicilian.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/36.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/249.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/8.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2957570357_bc37fafb3a.jpg?v=0http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs171.ash2/41626_1403170485_2041_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs168.ash2/41521_1525879736_7797_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs173.ash2/41671_1245574269_9499_n.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/39.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/3366988720_97f8936fec_m.jpg

Sybilla
05-08-11, 17:16
Real Sicilians look Western Mediterraneans with some northern african mixed with Italians or Greekoid elements. The pictures that you posted focus more on the second group for the most.

oreo_cookie
05-08-11, 17:34
Others

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/3288663413_583cb23077_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3289480134_fdc42e350d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3288662677_c1f8ec6529_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3481/3289479176_06bce8a1a0_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3144/3289478264_a1d2c3458b_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/3288661251_8e8129767c_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3589/3288662301_28c65ee53a_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/3289477850_4da60f93f8_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5418692840_862bf8aa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5254/5418691070_46c9fd8293_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5418087733_270062fc0e_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690196_6667de0e05_m.jpg

oreo_cookie
06-08-11, 06:41
Some more.

http://www.siciliani.com/upload/3.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/16.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/24.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/19.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/manfrom.jpghttp://img79.exs.cx/img79/2349/Sicily26.jpghttp://img117.exs.cx/img117/9894/Sicily-GiarreCatania.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/greco.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/tedesco_pal.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/bonfiglio-1.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/untitled-2.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/rad.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/1848A.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/SiciliangirlBiblical.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/42.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/289.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/773.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/62.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/252.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/879.jpg

MarTyro
06-08-11, 15:26
It is allways a mix - I think the faces are:
Italians 70%
Greeks 12%
Spaniards or Portuguese 8%
Levant 5%
North Africa 3%
Scandinavians 2%

oreo_cookie
06-08-11, 18:24
It is allways a mix - I think the faces are:
Italians 70%
Greeks 12%
Spaniards or Portuguese 8%
Levant 5%
North Africa 3%
Scandinavians 2%

The closest match is obviously other southern Italians (Calabria, Campania and others) I agree. I left them out of the choices because I wanted to know in which general direction they deviate otherwise.

Elias2
07-08-11, 15:02
I feel for most of them, I'm looking at greeks.

oreo_cookie
07-08-11, 19:46
http://e.imagehost.org/0749/sic8.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0261/sic13.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0477/sic16.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0671/sic14.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0943/sic1.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0136/sic5.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0931/sic2.jpghttp://img.bellisinasce.it/pic/p6/p6967704-4.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/498.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/714.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/765.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/851.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/727.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/891.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/13.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/466.jpg

oreo_cookie
07-08-11, 19:46
http://www.siciliani.com/upload/95.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/805.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/318.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/6.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/10.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/203.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/71.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/77.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/240.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/711.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/7.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0700/sic20.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0304/sic19.jpghttp://www.messinanews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/highres_3677389.jpg

oreo_cookie
08-08-11, 19:23
http://i49.tinypic.com/1y1iex.jpghttp://www.sky.it/tr/lib/images/atleti/99352.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XxdQgl7NL-A/TIojLa0BQtI/AAAAAAAABw8/LBkQmldA-a8/s1600/563556297.jpeghttp://images.movieplayer.it/2008/05/08/enrico-lo-verso-in-mogli-a-pezzi-60017.jpghttp://www.cinebazar.it/immagini/2202.jpghttp://baroquesicily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/3men.jpg

Knovas
08-08-11, 22:12
Greeks in my opinion. Also, they are very similar on autosomal results. They cluster almost neatly.

Cambrius (The Red)
08-08-11, 23:44
Yes, Southern Italians / Sicilians cluster very close to Greeks in autosomal DNA studies. Meaning that, phenotypically, a significant majority will trend Greek.

Cambrius (The Red)
09-08-11, 00:08
Sicilians are mainly Eastern Mediterranean in appearance, although there are also other influences.

oreo_cookie
09-08-11, 01:12
I think most of the ancient Greeks in Sicily were allied with Sparta, which means they probably came from the Peloponnese and/or the Mani peninsula.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Peloponnese_map.png

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 11:46
Anyone have anything to add?

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 13:45
It's obvious, R1b Greeks and R1b Italians have matching physiognomy. Also J2 Greeks and J2 Italians match. These two groups make up a large proportion of the typical Southern Italian phenotype :good_job:.

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 16:41
But doesn't appearance correlate more with autosomal DNA?

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 16:51
oreo cookie your observation is correct. Autosomal DNA is responsible for appearance, however, we know that sex chromosomes X and Y represent similar Autosomal DNA in regions where population exchange from one region to another is verifiable. It would not be accurate to infer based on lets say Polish R1a and Sicilian R1a because no relationship between these two groups has been documented.

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 16:53
orea cookie your observation is correct. Autosomal DNA is responsible for appearance, however, we know that sex chromosomes X and Y represent similar Autosomal DNA in regions where population exchange from one region to another is verifiable. It would not be accurate to infer based on lets say Polish R1a and Sicilian R1a because no relationship between these two groups has been posed.

Autosomal DNA might be able to be tied to frequencies of haplogroups more than haplogroups themselves, i.e. places with similar haplogroup frequencies will look similar.

Wilhelm
12-08-11, 17:06
I voted Greeks, for obvious reasons.

Knovas
12-08-11, 17:25
oreo cookie: But doesn't appearance correlate more with autosomal DNA?

Correct. Too sad this seems to be a nightmare for some individuals.

And acording to the autosomal data, althought Sicilians and Southern Italians are very close to Greeks, they must be a bit darker in average.

Haplogroups have nothing to do with phisical appearence. Tell those Italians tested in haplogroup T that they are Ethiopians, and they'll be laughing all day. It's that simple.

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 17:45
oreo cookie: But doesn't appearance correlate more with autosomal DNA?

Correct. Too sad this seems to be a nightmare for some individuals.

And acording to the autosomal data, althought Sicilians and Southern Italians are very close to Greeks, they must be a bit darker in average.

Haplogroups have nothing to do with phisical appearence. Tell those Italians tested in haplogroup T that they are Ethiopians, and they'll be laughing all day. It's that simple.

How would they be darker? I figured maybe Slavic influence could lighten Greeks but the Normans were in southern Italy too so I thought it'd balance out. The thing I notice is, lighter Greeks often look Slavic, while lighter Sicilians often look Germanic.

Knovas
12-08-11, 17:59
You are right about the slavic influence. Southern Italians and Sicilians have a little bit more West European, but Greeks have much more East European. And also, more European autosomal DNA in average. Here you have from Dodecad:

Southern Italians/Sicilians: WE (14.9) + EE (3) + Medit. (44.6) = 62.5

Greeks: WE (13.5) + EE (11) + Medit. (41.9) = 66.4

The Norman influence in Southern Italy was quite insignificant. Not relevant, except for the higher presence of some haplogroups (I1 or Q), but not apreciable on autosomal results.

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 18:01
Doesn't Greece have more West Asian as well but southern Italians and Sicilians have more North African and SW Asian/Arabian?

Knovas
12-08-11, 18:15
The main reason is that Southern Italians have less Northern European and less total European score. But checking the non European results, it's apreciable that Southern Italians have also more African (sub-saharan and not) and more Southwest Asian too.

I'll try to vote. My account doesn't work properly as I pointed.

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 18:30
The main reason is that Southern Italians have less Northern European and less total European score. But checking the non European results, it's apreciable that Southern Italians have also more African (sub-saharan and not) and more Southwest Asian too.

It does surprise me that the Normans didn't have more of an autosomal affect.. but I want to know about where parts of Greece cluster on autosomal plots.. do Cretans, who are 40%+ J2, cluster differently than northern Greeks who have much higher frequencies of R1a and I2? I'd guess the (North)Eastern European components are much higher in these Greeks than in Peloponnesian, Cretan, and islander Greeks.

Wilhelm
12-08-11, 18:46
It does surprise me that the Normans didn't have more of an autosomal affect.. but I want to know about where parts of Greece cluster on autosomal plots.. do Cretans, who are 40%+ J2, cluster differently than northern Greeks who have much higher frequencies of R1a and I2? I'd guess the (North)Eastern European components are much higher in these Greeks than in Peloponnesian, Cretan, and islander Greeks.
In this autosomal plot there are greeks from all parts (dark blue dots) they float around between southern-italians and pulling towards balkans :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 19:20
Some of the Greeks appear to be heading toward the Near East while others toward Romania, with most in the middle, near the Italians. ^

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 20:14
Where is the Greek sample from? Are those Cypriots Turkish or Greek-speaking Cypriots?

Looks like they got their sample in the Athens Mall. We need more rural sampling in Greece.

According to the scatterplot the Greeks are not related to the Balkan population.:useless:

oreo_cookie
12-08-11, 20:51
Some of the Greeks are deviating in the Balkan direction though.

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 13:49
Some of the Greeks are deviating in the Balkan direction though.

Deviating is the correct term however it appears that all the Greeks are deviants, makes me wonder where their median lies. Looks like it could be just above the Italians from Central Italy?

Knovas
13-08-11, 14:40
It's curious. I supose that they also used Greeks from distant areas, not only the main Greeks. If you see the Romanians, it happens the same, since they surely used normal Romanians and others with substantial gipsy ancestry.

For the moment, the autosomal Greek sample is very homogeneous checking Dodecad, so it's clear that they are typical Greeks. Checking Romanian individual results (downloading the population portraits), it's easy to see some individuals who are very different from the main population, matching a gipsy profile. So probably as more samples come, different types of Greeks will join the project and some differences will appear.

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 14:52
Here are the figures for antosomal DNA within various populations represented graphically http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TShZrL1hQLI/AAAAAAAADKM/f2VuiF4Fm0E/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 14:56
it's easy to see some individuals who are very different from the main population, matching a gipsy profile. So probably as more samples come, different types of Greeks will join the project and some differences will appear.

Many individuals are willing to participate because they have an unresolved background or look different to others in their community. Results are scewed by these participants. Dienekes even mentions that he decided to exclude two Gypsy Roma and two Armenian outliers.

Knovas
13-08-11, 15:25
But this is not rare since the objective is to get realistic aproximations to concrete ethnic groups. He probably had serious reasons to do it, because there are specific groups for Armenians and Gipsies (quite for them).

One of the reasons to exclude some people are plain lies coming from the participants, who clearly didn't present their real ancestry just to get in to the project, and when the results appear, Dienekes' noticed the fraud inmediatly. This is very usual in some South Americans who pretend to be Spanish for example. But sometimes, when there was no fraud, he decided to accept the sample even if the person was of mixed ancestry but, of course, he had to exclude quite of those participants in some runs.

Probably as more samples come from distant places of Greece, and other countries, he will think in the creation of a group for them, like others that already exist in the project for minorities.

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 16:02
But this is not rare ...
One of the reasons to exclude some people are plain lies coming from the participants, who clearly didn't present their real ancestry just to get in to the project

My point exactly, the problem with sampling is that you are relying on the participant's word or belief. Neither are very scientific!

Dorianfinder
13-08-11, 16:16
Often what participants express is their desire not what they know to be true. Studies show that heterogeneous populations have a higher sensitivity to racial or cultural stereotypes meaning that they are more likely to lie about their ethnic background.

Knovas
13-08-11, 16:29
Don't underestimate Dieneke's, he has powerful tools to detect fraudsters. I'm pretty sure none of them got into to the project, even Dienekes created this post to warn about this: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/truly-despicable-behavior.html

And some of the population samples have quite individuals, so even if there are one or two fraudsters in them, the final average report does not change drastically. But as I said, I highly doubt you can find fraudsters listed in the populations. What he calls outliers is another thing, just a few people with some special characteristics, wich make those individuals different from the main population asociated. Nothing else.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-08-11, 16:38
You find people misrepresenting their backgrounds even in highly structured genetic research projects run by well-known academic institutions. Drastic individual deviations from any indigenous population's average scores are normally discarded.

Anyway, professional autosomal clustering research essentially confirms Dodecad (Dienekes) and Eurogene scores.

Wilhelm
13-08-11, 17:42
Actually the two Romanian gypsies were part of the sample of the professional academic study of Behar et al. , but Dienekes already excludes the two of them when averaging the Romanian sample. Also, there are part Canarian people who want to make part of the spanish sample. They are going to screw up the results, obviously. But the Greek sample is 100% greek, Dienekes is greek, he surely takes care of the sample. He has tools to detect frauds, such as the Clusters Galore.

oreo_cookie
13-08-11, 19:32
If Dienekes' work essentially comes to the same conclusions as professional studies, I think it can be used as a guide to understanding population genetics but not as a definite, end-all answer for the simple reason of sample sizes being dependent on who decides to submit their data, thus you would need approximately the same number of each ethnic group to make definitive conclusions.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-08-11, 22:58
Professional geneticists have openly praised the Eurogenes and Dodecad projects for professionalism and accuracy - the journal Nature and others.

Read the article in the 15th December issue of the Nature Journal, "Rise of the Genome Bloggers". I'll try and locate other material.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html?s=news_rss

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 03:28
Professional geneticists have openly praised the Eurogenes and Dodecad projects for professionalism and accuracy - the journal Nature and others.

Read the article in the 15th December issue of the Nature Journal, "Rise of the Genome Bloggers". I'll try and locate other material.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html?s=news_rss

The results I've seen from them always seem sensible and accurate, I just was concerned about the sample sizes that's all.

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 12:43
The results I've seen from them always seem sensible and accurate, I just was concerned about the sample sizes that's all.

For a study to be valid it needs to test only what is intended. The sample sizes are too small leaving too much room for confounding variables to effect the results. The generic problem with much of this commercial and internet DNA research is that many results are duplicated giving a false impression of reliability (similar outcomes) when in fact the same people circulate ftdna, 23and me and eupedia forums and data is shared as studies often piggy back on each others' results.

Knovas
14-08-11, 16:48
There are sample populations with a few individuals, which is for example the case of the Greek one (I must admit). But if you check Spaniards, Italians, CEU, and even the British and the Irish populations (Cornish and Kent included), you'll see there are enough participants to get an accurate idea.

And samples are still increasing, so don't worry for this since some populations already have quite samples, and even more will be added. Also, don't forget the fact that it's a good comparative data, specially, taking the largest sample sizes as reference. I mean that populations are often under the same conditions (having quite samples), and what you can see comparing each other, for sure it's not noise.

At some level, to continue adding samples does not change the average results. At least, not drastically.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-08-11, 18:28
There are sample populations with a few individuals, which is for example the case of the Greek one (I must admit). But if you check Spaniards, Italians, CEU, and even the British and the Irish populations (Cornish and Kent included), you'll see there are enough participants to get an accurate idea.

And samples are still increasing, so don't worry for this since some populations already have quite samples, and even more will be added. Also, don't forget the fact that it's a good comparative data, specially, taking the largest sample sizes as reference. I mean that populations are often under the same conditions (having quite samples), and what you can see comparing each other, for sure it's not noise.

At some level, to continue adding samples does not change the average results. At least, not drastically.

The Eurogenes and Dodecad data essentially mirrors results from the most recent institutional autosomal studies (e.g., Gayan and Behar 2009 / 2010, also the Dr. McDonald team, among others).

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 19:09
The thing I wanted to see, as far as Dodecad goes, is to have Iberian samples divided by region, to get a good picture of how say, Madeirenses differ from continental Portuguese, and now Andalusians, Catalans, Galicians etc. compare to one another, the same way he has Italy divided into three or more groups.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-08-11, 19:23
The thing I wanted to see, as far as Dodecad goes, is to have Iberian samples divided by region, to get a good picture of how say, Madeirenses differ from continental Portuguese, and now Andalusians, Catalans, Galicians etc. compare to one another, the same way he has Italy divided into three or more groups.

There certainly are some regional differences in haplogroup frequencies but that really means little in terms of full ancestry scores.

You have to be very careful with certain areas to determine if samples qualify as representative of the indigenous population. As you may know, there is the infamous case of the Alcacer do Sal (Alentejo) haplogroup testing (Pereira 2005 and 2010). Alcacer do Sal was virtually isolated from neighboring towns for hundreds of years since it was a malaria zone and populated by social outcasts such as ex-slaves and leprosy and contagious disease victims. Consequently, these people were forced to practice endogamy and their gene pool cannot be seen as indigenously representative. The same can be said for the Canaries.

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 19:26
At some level, to continue adding samples does not change the average results. At least, not drastically.

More so for homogeneous populations than the Balkans, they don't call it a Macedonian salad for nothing.:bored:

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 19:30
You have to be very careful with certain areas to determine if samples qualify as representative of the indigenous population. As you may know, there is the infamous case of the Alcacer do Sal (Alentejo) haplogroup testing (Pereira 2005 and 2010). Alcacer do Sal was virtually isolated from neighboring towns for hundreds of years since it was a malaria zone and populated by social outcasts such as ex-slaves and leprosy and contagious disease victims. Consequently, these people were forced to practice endogamy and their gene pool cannot be seen as indigenously representative. The same can be said for the Canaries.

I'd like to see how Madeira compares, i.e. if there is more West African than on the mainland, and if the Flemish influence in the Azores was strong enough to pull them genetically toward Northern Europe.

Knovas
14-08-11, 20:26
We have already been talking about outliers. Almost everywhere, you can always find the main population and others who deviate but are linked. Checking populations with highly homogeneous individuals it's very easy to understand, and more samples don't affect the average when quite are listed.

Probably checking Balkans it's necesary to make several divisions to see the different homogeneous groups, since as a whole the visual effect it's obvious. The same happens in Italy and Russia, this one surely at higher scale (the participants listed are from the European side, just a few near the Urals start to deviate).

In situations like this, I agree that more samples are required, althought some cases as for example the Italians, actually have quite samples from the different regions. Dienekes always tries to separate groups when they show special characteristics, so he probably will do it as more samples come, allowing him to create new groups/sub-groups.

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 20:40
Some more pictures, in reference to the thread/poll (Sicilians from various parts of the island) but other productive discussion can still continue.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/131/l_3614e254757d4d80a9b3cf53faf61760.jpghttp://img97.exs.cx/img97/5782/Sicily21.jpghttp://img130.exs.cx/img130/8176/Sicily-Catania05.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_17maxi.jpghttp://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_8.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_25maxi.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_060a.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/353.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/860.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/293.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/295.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/868.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/841.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/730.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/852.jpg

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 21:13
I'd like to see how Madeira compares, i.e. if there is more West African than on the mainland

Any North-West African influence should be minimal. There is however the real possibility that Angolan and Mozambican colonialists may have brought some Sub-Saharan influence back with them. There is a significant population in South Africa that keep regular contact with home.

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 21:19
Any North-West African influence should be minimal. There is however the real possibility that Angolan and Mozambican colonialists may have brought some Sub-Saharan influence back with them. There is a significant population in South Africa that keep regular contact with home.

I was thinking of coastal West African (Senegambian) influence, since in the early days of settlement, the Portuguese brought slaves from that region to Madeira to work on sugar plantations.

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 22:48
I was thinking of coastal West African (Senegambian) influence, since in the early days of settlement, the Portuguese brought slaves from that region to Madeira to work on sugar plantations.

Any offspring would look variably different to your typical Madeiran, this was a relatively recent introduction and is contrasted with the fact that Portugal and the Atlantic coast of Europe lies close by. Unlike the VOC's trading posts founded in the Cape of Good Hope and Malabar.

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 22:49
Any offspring would look variably different to your typical Madeiran, this was a relatively recent introduction and is contrasted with the fact that Portugal and the Atlantic coast of Europe lies close by. Unlike the VOC's trading posts founded in the Cape of Good Hope and Malabar.

But slaves were in Madeira in the 1500s through the 1700s (after which they probably blended into the population) so I'd expect a diluted amount of West African to be present in the population since. I may be wrong, though.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-08-11, 23:16
But slaves were in Madeira in the 1500s through the 1700s (after which they probably blended into the population) so I'd expect a diluted amount of West African to be present in the population since. I may be wrong, though.

There were also various Berber and Arab types along with Gaunches that worked the plantations. With Madeira, more than the Azores, you really need to closely examine the familial history of each participant to determine if a person is representative of the Portuguese population as a whole (mainland). From what I have seen, the large majority of Madeirans look no different than mainland Portuguese but there is a small minority with "recent" Black African, Berber / Arab / Gaunche ancestry - non indigenous Portuguese.

oreo_cookie
14-08-11, 23:20
From what I have seen, the large majority of Madeirans look no different than mainland Portuguese but there is a small minority with "recent" Black African, Berber / Arab / Gaunche ancestry - non indigenous Portuguese.

I agree. I might make a separate Spain/Portugal thread on here but every time there is one, it seems to be killed by argument.

Dorianfinder
14-08-11, 23:23
But slaves were in Madeira in the 1500s through the 1700s (after which they probably blended into the population) so I'd expect a diluted amount of West African to be present in the population since. I may be wrong, though.

The chances are greater that European men have relations with non-European women when there is a predominantly male population that are either sailors or soldiers. Also if the population is a port of destination where many types come and go with brothels being frequented on a regular basis. Also the more heterogeneous a population the less prohibitive inter-racial relations would have been.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-08-11, 00:11
I agree. I might make a separate Spain/Portugal thread on here but every time there is one, it seems to be killed by argument.

Well, there are always odd characters on genetics and biological anthropology boards who get some strange pleasure from lying about Iberians. These persons are frustrated because science has shown quite well that Spaniards and Portuguese are very mainstream Western Europeans, in genotype and phenotype. Like many other forums, from time to time, Eupedia get's it share of people obsessed with slandering Iberians.

oreo_cookie
15-08-11, 00:43
I like to take the middle point of view - Spaniards and Portuguese are neither like Irish or North Africans, but a SW European population whose looks are exactly as you expect given their location and genes.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-08-11, 01:25
I like to take the middle point of view - Spaniards and Portuguese are neither like Irish or North Africans, but a SW European population whose looks are exactly as you expect given their location and genes.

I agree, SW European / Atlantic primarily.

oreo_cookie
15-08-11, 01:35
Anyone else have anything to add to the topic? I'll create a separate Spain/Portugal thread if we want to discuss that, too.

Knovas
15-08-11, 02:15
Perhaps it's not a good idea, since it's almost sure that some people will post with the worst of intentions to dark Spaniards. I like the idea, but the problem is that with some people it is imposible to have a serious discussion about this.

I'd prefer to continue the main thread normally, and it's okay for all.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-08-11, 02:34
Perhaps it's not a good idea, since it's almost sure that some people will post with the worst of intentions to dark Spaniards. I like the idea, but the problem is that with some people it is imposible to have a serious discussion about this.

I'd prefer to continue the main thread normally, and it's okay for all.

I agree, Knovas. Unfortunately there are too many malicious people in cyberspace given to the most absurd notions concerning Spaniards. It's the kind of behavior that can keep social psychologists very busy for years. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are taking notes here regularly. :laughing:

oreo_cookie
15-08-11, 02:38
I just wanted to keep this thread on topic which is why I suggested creating a separate Iberian-themed thread. :)

Knovas
15-08-11, 15:27
¿What about the Maltese? I think there's not much genetic data, but they are probably quite similar compared to Southern Italians/Sicilians.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-08-11, 15:59
¿What about the Maltese? I think there's not much genetic data, but they are probably quite similar compared to Southern Italians/Sicilians.

Maltese, I believe, are even more Near Eastern than S. Italians / Sicilians.

Dorianfinder
15-08-11, 16:24
Maltese, I believe, are even more Near Eastern than S. Italians / Sicilians.

The Maltese language has Arabic influences from North Africa. I would expect typical Phoenician markers.

Mzungu mchagga
15-08-11, 16:38
I had a Maltese girlfriend. She and her family looked like the Sicilians posted in the pictures above.

oreo_cookie
15-08-11, 17:42
Maltese people came from Sicily originally so they are probably pretty much the same people genetically.. the only reason their language is related to Arabic is because of a large settlement to Malta when Sicily was under Muslim rule.

Dorianfinder
15-08-11, 18:20
I would expect typical Phoenician markers.

The Phoenicians colonized Malta from about 1000 BC, bringing their Semitic language and culture, and becoming the direct male-line ancestors of about a half of the modern Maltese population.

http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=57215
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature2/online_extra.html

Wilhelm
15-08-11, 18:29
The Maltest haplogroup profile is similar to that of Sicily. And autosomally there is a Maltese individual at Eurogenes, he clusters with South-Italians too.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-08-11, 19:18
The Maltese language has Arabic influences from North Africa. I would expect typical Phoenician markers.

Interesting information.:good_job: Thanks.

oreo_cookie
16-08-11, 01:05
I wouldn't expect Maltese to be any more Phoenician than Sicilians are, given that most Maltese came from Sicily anyway (which, btw, received Phoenician colonization as well). I have seen plenty of Maltese people and they look pretty much the same.

Cambrius (The Red)
16-08-11, 02:23
I've known two Maltese people in my life. One looked like a standard Southern Italian and the other Arabic.

oreo_cookie
16-08-11, 03:02
I've known two Maltese people in my life. One looked like a standard Southern Italian and the other Arabic.

Makes sense to me :)

oreo_cookie
21-08-11, 03:55
Last round of pictures for this thread;

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_23.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_scurto.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_peccarisi_rimini.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_coco.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/th_parisi_ale.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/accardi_pie.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/perna_arm.jpghttp://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/tedesco_gia.jpghttp://www.ilgiornaledipozzallo.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/raffaele-lombardo1.jpghttp://img.bellisinasce.it/pic/p9/p9962708-5.jpghttp://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/Fichera.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/3959315086_21fe21422e.jpghttp://img130.exs.cx/img130/3472/Sicily-Catania02.jpghttp://img117.exs.cx/img117/8945/sicilysalemitrapani032or.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0611/sic21.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0194/sic17.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0068/sic15.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0070/sic11.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0161/sic10.jpghttp://e.imagehost.org/0333/sic3.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
21-08-11, 19:29
Sicilians are very diverse and have many different phenotypes.

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 05:44
Anyone else have anything to add to this thread?

oreo_cookie
08-09-11, 22:49
Some more people;

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5097/5418692934_f2762d29d5_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5175/5418692840_862bf8aa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5134/5418087957_7114da70bb_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5094/5418692452_cc50882628_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5418087653_8807573d16_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5057/5418087319_b15cf4d470_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5092/5418691866_066e667aa6_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5259/5418087109_bef2604cba_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5051/5418086873_5985644d19_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/5418086089_3d25c20450_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5136/5418690392_a2a6ef7736_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690196_6667de0e05_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5418690030_11c2edbd81_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3661/3366165331_f4a7628bed_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3366194933_e6806f4010_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3366989500_df74393d98_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3585/3366989336_d7642b6782_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3366989176_52a61af255_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3366989236_53a165505b_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3557/3366164113_3cda17f143_m.jpg

Nova123
09-09-11, 01:06
they look like Ashkenazi Jews

oreo_cookie
09-09-11, 02:14
they look like Ashkenazi Jews

And Sephardi Jews too.. if you had to choose one of the listed poll options which would you pick?

Nova123
09-09-11, 06:35
oreo_cookie : if you had to choose one of the listed poll options which would you pick?

Spaniards - Greeks

Nova123
09-09-11, 06:41
hello oreo_cookie

Guess the origin of those women ( Middle Eastern or European or North African ) ?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26775-Guess-the-origin-of-those-women-(-Middle-Eastern-or-European-or-North-African-)

oreo_cookie
09-09-11, 06:49
I guessed :)

oreo_cookie
09-09-11, 07:07
More people for this thread;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2643/3974715689_921d55c863_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3975480030_d6f99b684c_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2611/3974715345_bdc0610205_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3535/3974715225_49d8e14bd9_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3559220131_a4a37fd5e7_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2496/3975478706_a83d5ccf90_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3445/3974713995_c1fcd1c6dd_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3482/3975478504_4f582220a2_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2444/3974713801_a07de80a01_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2443/3974713505_da1917d325_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2448/3974713165_d83394209a_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3974713083_0fa8b89626_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3325/3559223615_2da9676fd9_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3625/3560033276_133cb1667d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3559221089_2d7371cd32_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3559220597_046e1f43e2_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3623/3560031886_8092e67eb8_m.jpg

oreo_cookie
13-09-11, 02:49
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RBxLMi15vVE/TNmvR7-hVSI/AAAAAAAAArU/3Id9J4Z1QQ8/s400/luca%2Bbrasi.pnghttp://mafiatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Accused-Giovani-Strangio-150x150.jpghttp://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/21407623.jpghttp://af11.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/rizzuto-friends1.jpg?w=347&h=260http://kylielynn.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/sicily-093.jpg?w=600&h=800http://baroquesicily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/untitled-184.jpghttp://baroquesicily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2-young-men-61.jpg

Bodin
14-09-11, 03:32
Ofcourse they are very diverse phenotipicaly , but Levantine echarachteristics prevale , maybe it has something to do with Syrrian slaves that were on Sicilly during Roman empire , working plantajas , in that times Sicilly was after North Africa most important source of crops for empire . Some historians mention big numbers like million of Syrrian slaves on island

oreo_cookie
14-09-11, 03:43
It could also be due to the Neolithic or the Phoenician and Carthaginian conquests of the island.

oreo_cookie
14-09-11, 05:34
http://2media.nowpublic.net/images//93/1d/931de894e468fac73f103d3177063cd7.jpg

Bodin
14-09-11, 23:32
It could also be due to the Neolithic or the Phoenician and Carthaginian conquests of the island.
Yes that is probably part of it to , thanks for corecting

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 00:01
I'm not sure where exactly Neolithic expansion would have come from, but there is some sharing of y-dna haplogroups between the two populations, mainly J2 and E1b1b.

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 18:50
Anyone else have other pictures to add or comments, poll votes etc?

Goga
15-09-11, 19:00
Your questions are very childish! Sicilians do look like Sicilian first and Italians second. They're one of the most fascinating people in Europe! Endlessly fascinating folks.

I like their South European temperament, but I don't think that even their South European temperament can beat my temperament! I've got more emotion and passion.

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 19:11
Your questions are very childish! Sicilians do look like Sicilian first and Italians second. They're one of the most fascinating people in Europe! Endlessly fascinating folks.

I like their South European temperament, but I don't think that even their South European temperament can beat my temperament! I've got more emotion and passion.

If you don't like my threads don't post! They are all valid questions.

oreo_cookie
18-09-11, 18:58
http://www.siciliani.com/upload/295.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3392/3280119524_22aaaef724.jpg?v=0http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3337/3598143413_8501af23a3.jpg?v=0http://www.fidal.it/images/licciofinale.jpghttp://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/PhysicSicilian.jpghttp://www.lamescolanza.com/lafattoria/immagini/fabriziocorona.jpghttp://www.cinemaitaliano.info/show_img.php?type=personaggi&id=007038http://www.cinemaitaliano.info/show_img.php?type=personaggi&id=010422http://www.fipcf.it/files/fotogallery/Coccia%20-%20Pagliaro.jpghttp://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-photos/dario-alioto.jpghttp://copiaeincolla.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/schifani.jpghttp://www.catanianuoto2000.it/images/Foto/I%20Trofeo%20Primavera%20a%20Priolo/Primavera%20a%20Priolo%20(26).jpghttp://www.unionesiciliani.ch/immagini_assets/immagini/Uzwil.jpghttp://www.pulcinella.es/images/fotos/piadina44.jpghttp://www.unanuovaprospettiva.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/rita_unp.jpghttp://www.siciliani.com/upload/218.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
18-09-11, 20:08
oreo cookie: But doesn't appearance correlate more with autosomal DNA?

Correct. Too sad this seems to be a nightmare for some individuals.

And acording to the autosomal data, althought Sicilians and Southern Italians are very close to Greeks, they must be a bit darker in average.

Haplogroups have nothing to do with phisical appearence. Tell those Italians tested in haplogroup T that they are Ethiopians, and they'll be laughing all day. It's that simple.

Absolutely. Haplogroups are basically only helpful in gaining an understanding of ancient migration movements. That's why I don't understand why some people are still using haplogroup frequencies to define population groups.

Phenotypes have all to do with autosomal DNA. Thousands of alleles comprise full heritage (and phenotypes) and autosomal DNA research is critical in determining regional contributions to genomes and shedding light on phenotypes.

oreo_cookie
18-09-11, 20:51
Absolutely. Haplogroups are basically only helpful in gaining an understanding of ancient migration movements. That's why I don't understand why some people are still using haplogroup frequencies to define population groups.


The thing with haplogroup frequencies is that autosomal DNA seems to correlate more with y-dna than mtdna for the following reason; historically it has been men who have moved about, conquered different regions and settled them, taking local wives. Therefore, y-dna would change more dramatically but mtdna has remained the same, while layers of new genes add up and dilute the autosomal component of the mtdna since population movements historically have been more male-based.

Knovas
19-09-11, 01:13
People mix and autosomes get diluted or replaced, that's why you'll never find an exact estimation. Even the high presence of a haplogroup does not necesarily mean an autosomal correlation, as for example, the Passiegos have 40% of haplogroup E and they cluster with Basques if I'm not mistaken. So nothing to do with North Africans, the population which fits better according to the haplogroup E presence between them.

That's the best example, but surely it's possible to find others.

oreo_cookie
19-09-11, 01:17
People mix and autosomes get diluted or replaced, that's why you'll never find an exact estimation. Even the high presence of a haplogroup does not necesarily mean an autosomal correlation, as for example, the Passiegos have 40% of haplogroup E and they cluster with Basques if I'm not mistaken. So nothing to do with North Africans, the population which fits better according to the haplogroup E presence between them.

That's the best example, but surely it's possible to find others.

That is a good point. The thing that just confuses me is when there is almost NO correlation between autosomes and haplogroups but usually you can see some sort of correlation.

oreo_cookie
20-09-11, 17:33
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs475.snc4/49871_1616762665_52_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs327.snc4/41502_595365983_8720_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs352.snc4/41642_1824225244_2060_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc1/profile6/1214/111/n1517467060_9048.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc4/v224/1978/91/n1634537973_7860.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc1/v223/1820/115/n645123682_4600.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs175.ash2/41702_1532777386_2493_n.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc1/v223/1659/63/n1652863708_5712.jpghttp://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs269.snc3/23133_1333653023_2243_n.jpg

Alan
24-09-11, 22:12
they look like a cross between Iberians and Eastmediterraneans with some North African.

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 01:39
http://www.mammasicily.com/foto/alessia.jpghttp://www.mammasicily.com/foto/Nathalia.jpghttp://www.mammasicily.com/foto/Nadia.jpghttp://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sicilian_family21.jpg

Reinaert
26-09-11, 18:51
Well, you asked me to vote your poll, but I can't!
You have only one choice!

People from Sicily are from all over Europe and the Middle East and Northern Africa.
We all know that!
Even people that were the first Europeans.

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 18:53
Well, you asked me to vote your poll, but I can't!
You have only one choice!

People from Sicily are from all over Europe and the Middle East and Northern Africa.
We all know that!
Even people that were the first Europeans.

Lol wait I'm confused.. only one choice?

Reinaert
26-09-11, 20:28
Only one choice in the poll..

I think your choices are all related to Sicily!

Scandinavians (Swedes, Danes, etc.)
Spaniards or Portuguese
Greeks
Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia)
Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine)
North Africa (Tunisia, Algeria, etc.)

Cambrius (The Red)
26-09-11, 20:34
Sicilians are diverse and have a generally unique look. They are closest to Greeks and I haven't noticed any great similarities with people outside of the Eastern Mediterranean. Only a tiny percentage resemble North Africans.

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 20:48
Only one choice in the poll..

I think your choices are all related to Sicily!

Scandinavians (Swedes, Danes, etc.)
Spaniards or Portuguese
Greeks
Caucasus (Armenia, Georgia)
Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine)
North Africa (Tunisia, Algeria, etc.)


Well the question is meant to be like, which, of all of those, would you most likely confuse one for, or going by looks who comes the closest phenotypically.

Carlos
27-09-11, 03:32
Various influences are observed, but the seal is Italian. Someone has the air of North Africa, but Italianate, although phenotypic essence I see the Caucasus, however what I look like are Italian, some with an essence here or there, but more Italian than anything else. There are many long noses and large, is what I found less similarity with Spain and Portugal.


I voted Caucasus, is what I have found the vast majority with a minority with an air of the Levant, North Africa, also in northern Europe, is like a homogeneous heterogeneity.


The photo of my avatar is me, how beautiful! is the time when I should have put the braces would have succeeded and at 3:40 would not be 'talking about these issues.

oreo_cookie
27-09-11, 03:44
From your picture you could be anything from Spanish, to French, to British Isles (Irish, English). ^

oreo_cookie
27-09-11, 17:14
Another picture;

http://www.27east.com/assets/news.Article/325242/oMessina0224Enms.jpg

Reinaert
27-09-11, 17:49
Another picture;

http://www.27east.com/assets/news.Article/325242/oMessina0224Enms.jpg

This guy could be a Dutchman too, from the south. YDNA R1b or J2.

oreo_cookie
27-09-11, 17:51
He looks kind of Albanian to me. But really you could probably find that look even up into Poland, Germany, etc.

Btw choose a poll option. It's kind of a "choose the best answer" deal.

oreo_cookie
02-10-11, 20:10
This should go to the Anthropology section too.

oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 01:37
Another picture

http://www.adrants.com/images/glass_of_sicily.jpg

oreo_cookie
14-10-11, 03:26
http://pad.mymovies.it/filmclub/attori/122827.jpghttp://locali.data.kataweb.it/kpmimages/kpm3/gloc/il-tirreno/2011/04/04/jpg_3849351.jpg

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 20:46
Michael Cera.. half Sicilian-Canadian, half Irish-Canadian

http://bios.weddingbee.com/pics/116155/michaelcera.jpg

lebowsky
17-10-11, 21:33
they look like a cross between Iberians and Eastmediterraneans with some North African.

I am of the same mind.

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 21:50
And in terms of geography this makes sense.

zanipolo
17-10-11, 22:58
historically sicily had original tribal people called sicels in the centre of the island, the where greeks on the east and the carthagians/phoenicians in the west. These carthagians last 3 times longerin years in sicily than the greeks.
Question is what kind of people genetically was in north africa at the time when carthigian migrants went to sicily

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 23:09
historically sicily had original tribal people called sicels in the centre of the island, the where greeks on the east and the carthagians/phoenicians in the west. These carthagians last 3 times longerin years in sicily than the greeks.
Question is what kind of people genetically was in north africa at the time when carthigian migrants went to sicily


They would have been analogous to modern Kabyles, Riffians, and the like.

oreo_cookie
23-10-11, 10:36
http://www.paintinghere.com/UploadPic/Unknown%20Artist/big/portrait%20of%20a%20small%20sicilian%20girl%20of%2 0common%20class.jpghttp://wanderingtrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/PICT0126.jpghttp://www.fotothing.com/photos/4ee/4eec417032d86908a86982caf14492ab.jpghttp://ih2.redbubble.net/work.4729050.3.flat,550x550,075,f.sicilians.jpg

oreo_cookie
01-11-11, 00:47
Enna

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/6298341112_b329123e82_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6035/6297811837_d2b7a9b646_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6031/6297811717_e1903271d4_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6094/6297811547_4643e05815_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/6298340552_b8c230664c_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/6297811241_61b624a9b5_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6048/6298340342_40af698f72_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6118/6298340142_90d58e423a_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6298340050_b11fe946dc_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6094/6297810669_d93391e3a8_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6298339724_c0900337ce_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6107/6297810315_446b12cf1b_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6036/6298339492_b8f988a266_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6100/6298339092_c353a6b975_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6213/6297809811_1076cea2f3_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/6297809643_3bbfcfb8e2_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/6298338636_a59f06203a_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6059/6298338696_bb6cb27702_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6239/6298339654_047ce0af1d_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6108/6297810583_0161e1a317_m.jpg

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 04:18
Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Franco
22-11-11, 04:52
Anyone else have an opinion on this?

It's me or even deep Mediterranean Sicilia has some dinaric element? They resemble the Romanians somewhat.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 04:59
It's me or even deep Mediterranean Sicilia has some dinaric element? They resemble the Romanians somewhat.

There is a Dinaric influence, yes. I think Dinaric influences are present all throughout Southern Europe.

Did you vote one of the options on the poll btw?

Franco
22-11-11, 05:48
I did vote the greeks. As for dinaric influence over Southern Europe, it is true but not in the case of the Iberian Peninsula.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 05:49
There are Baskid types in Iberia that may RESEMBLE Dinarids but I think they are not classified as a proper Dinarid so they slightly differ.

Franco
22-11-11, 06:01
There are Baskid types in Iberia that may RESEMBLE Dinarids but I think they are not classified as a proper Dinarid so they slightly differ.

Oh yes, when I sent my last post I was thinking about some basques and asturians too. Also there is some dinarization around Valencia (East) and Cadiz (southernmost tip of Spain). But it's not very common.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 06:06
I wouldn't have thought it to be.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 08:53
Models

http://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4142.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4144.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4135.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4138.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4147.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4149.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4157.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4154.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4171.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4173.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4169.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4178.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4189.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4202.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4199.jpg

Knovas
22-11-11, 10:19
You can find some Dinaric element almost everywhere in Iberia, but it's never common. Not sure about Cadiz though.

Valencia and Northeast Iberia in general terms has a lot of Atlanto-Med types, which extent quite along the Western coast of France and also in Britain. Some Asturians have a really curious look, I found it very especific...maybe Dinarization has something to do there, who knows.

I personally don't see a clear match in average between Sicilians and Iberians. I think the poll is correct showing Greeks as the first option.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 16:29
Some Asturians have a really curious look, I found it very especific...maybe Dinarization has something to do there, who knows.

I always found them (Asturians) to be quite Atlantid.

Cambrius (The Red)
22-11-11, 22:00
IMO, Sicilians closely resemble Greeks and Maltese. A modest percentage appear somewhat Levantine.

oreo_cookie
22-11-11, 22:33
IMO, Sicilians closely resemble Greeks and Maltese. A modest percentage appear somewhat Levantine.

Did you vote up top? :)

julia90
28-02-12, 00:13
Models

http://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4142.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4144.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4135.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4138.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4147.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4149.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4157.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4154.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4171.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4173.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4169.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4178.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4189.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4202.jpghttp://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4199.jpg

many sicilians overlap with greeks for the most part
for example i could tell you which of them seem more greek looking to me, the trophy of Megale Hellas goes to this one http://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4202.jpg; but all of them seem Magno Greek

Carlos
28-02-12, 00:49
http://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4169.jpg

This girl is very strange or exotic, I have the impression of having seen the face and expression in Phoenician or Punic archaeological figures maybe.

julia90
28-02-12, 00:55
http://www.fbfoto.it/eventi/07/00_missitalia/finaliste/elenco/IMG_4169.jpg

This girl is very strange or exotic, I have the impression of having seen the face and expression in Phoenician or Punic archaeological figures maybe.

It's not exotic or strange, she seems Hellenic essentally
Your impression is right, she strikes as me as one of those face typically of antiquity in souh-eastern europe, not punic, because it isn't part of south-east or magna greacia propely, i'd say rather of greek island, like minoan, cretans etc or phoenician
the eyes are painted in antiquity fashion and seems greco-roman nib/rostrum
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/StH6iWBmJTI/AAAAAAAABSA/FaZFXcxGNv0/s400/rostro.jpg

julia90
06-03-12, 00:07
BTW Sicilians are no different from the other southern italians..
Looking on this map North-Eastern Sicilians (the area of Messina and Catania provinces) and south-western Calabria (the area around Reggio Calabria) have the most Greek autosomal heritage..
Indeed that area was that of the myth of Scylla and Charybdis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charybdis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/b/b6/Mappageneticaitalia.jpg

alais
13-06-12, 17:51
Sicilian actress Tea Falcohttp://images.vanityfair.it/imgs/galleries/moda/orizzontale/003249/tea-falco-3153924_650x0.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5666&d=1339602653

alais
13-06-12, 18:06
Sicilian actress and model Clizia Incorvaia http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Clizia+Incorvaia+Swatch+New+Gent+Collection+Ujtez_ KFhVTl.jpg

wormhole
09-08-12, 22:11
The main reason is that Southern Italians have less Northern European and less total European score. But checking the non European results, it's apreciable that Southern Italians have also more African (sub-saharan and not) and more Southwest Asian too.

I'll try to vote. My account doesn't work properly as I pointed.

Southern Italians have a MUCH higher total European score compared to Iberians. Everybody knows, and data has supported that Iberians have the most black blood in them from Moorish occupation and the Trans-Atalntic Slave Trade. Italians, on average have negligible SSA influence and are on par with other European groups, minus Iberians.

Anyways, Sicilians look Greek for the most part. I don;t consider them real Italians since they have certain looks that other mainland Southern Italians don't have, even Calabrese. I don't consider Sardinians Italians either since they have their own separate culture.

oreo_cookie
21-09-12, 08:17
Anyone else have an opinion?

adamo
13-04-13, 00:10
Patrilinealy 28% of Sicilian men belong to haplogroup J2, which originated between southern turkey, northern Syria and northwestern Iraq. It is the most frequently distributed haplogroup in men from the Fertile Crescent ( north Middle East) in areas such as turkey, Lebanon, northern Iraq, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan northeastern Iran, Israel etc. the next most frequent Sicilian y-DNA haplogroup is R1b. Thus, one out of four Sicilian males is of Celtic genetic stock. R1b's frequencies peak in Ireland, England, Scotland etc. it's also found at very high frequencies in Iberia (Spain+Portugal), France, holland, Belgium , Germany, north-central Italy etc. the next highest haplogroup is E1b1b at 20 or so percent but some studies state as high as 25%. This haplogroup came to Sicily from Tunisia In North Africa and some of it comes from the Greeks colonization of Italy. These are te main Sicilian haplogroups but haplogroup T is also higher in certain pars of Sicily, it came from the Middle East also but is a globally rare lineage.

adamo
13-04-13, 00:11
I forgot to write the R1b percentage it's about 24-25%.

Carlos
18-04-13, 03:00
Southern Italians have a MUCH higher total European score compared to Iberians. Everybody knows, and data has supported that Iberians have the most black blood in them from Moorish occupation and the Trans-Atalntic Slave Trade. Italians, on average have negligible SSA influence and are on par with other European groups, minus Iberians.

Anyways, Sicilians look Greek for the most part. I don;t consider them real Italians since they have certain looks that other mainland Southern Italians don't have, even Calabrese. I don't consider Sardinians Italians either since they have their own separate culture.

European Scores??How awful! The Iberians are black African yes, even better, perhaps seem to think we wanted someone like you.


I give her a kiss goodnight, and also give a caress.

I can imagine the symbol that has hung on the wall as your room, if you could gave her another kiss goodnight. Again to say something of the Iberians, if you have what you need to have.

adamo
18-04-13, 05:40
It's the opposite wormhole, Iberians have the higher European admixture, Italians have 15-20% LESS continental European blood. Southern Italians and Sicilians in particular cluster much more with middle easterners/north Africans than we give them credit for. Sicily is like a 3 way triangle pulling almost equal in 3 directions, middle eastern, North African, Celtic/western European in terms of patrilineal haplogroups, whereas all a cross the board ( other than higher haplogroup E1b1b frequencies in certain regions/locales, spaniards are much more European, Portuguese slightly less ( more E and a little extra J2) but still more than Italians. North Italy is genetically in terms of europeanness, like the totality of Portugal. Spain is STILL more Celtic and European than even northern Italy with the south of Italy being more distant of course even to northern Italy. ( when I mention wormhole, I am referring to the user/member wormhole, nothing else lol. Southern Italy, overall is much like Sicily In terms of haplogroup distribution.

albanopolis
09-05-13, 00:55
i have seen arab looking sicilians, nordic types and anything in between. Among women there is "hot stuff" over there.

Eldritch
27-10-14, 19:03
Spaniards definitely with Greeks close second.

In fact all of them look very similar to each other.

oreo_cookie
27-10-14, 19:39
In fact all of them look very similar to each other.

My mother always mistakes Portuguese and Greeks for one another. I'd actually argue Greece has more "Iberian" looking types due to the similarity between what we call "Pontid" and "Atlanto-Med", which are both long-faced Med types.

Sile
27-10-14, 20:11
My mother always mistakes Portuguese and Greeks for one another. I'd actually argue Greece has more "Iberian" looking types due to the similarity between what we call "Pontid" and "Atlanto-Med", which are both long-faced Med types.

Isn't Pontid meaning, mean black sea area, Bulgarian ?

oreo_cookie
27-10-14, 21:33
Isn't Pontid meaning, mean black sea area, Bulgarian ?

Pontid is a long-faced Mediterranean type common to the Balkans and Black Sea area, and it is similar metrically to the Atlanto-Med of SW Europe.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 14:44
I voted greeks, north africans are very easily to distinguish from sicilians and europeans in general.