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Blau
09-08-11, 10:01
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png

If i'm not mistaken it's saying that there is I1 and I2 present in Western Ireland. Is this just from the pre R1b expansion into Ireland from the pre Indo-European settlers? I don't know of any Viking settlements that correspond to that area. Also, I-M423 is I2 is it not? How did that get there? Could it be that I2 was carried along side R1b into Ireland?

zanipolo
09-08-11, 11:45
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png

If i'm not mistaken it's saying that there is I1 and I2 present in Western Ireland. Is this just from the pre R1b expansion into Ireland from the pre Indo-European settlers? I don't know of any Viking settlements that correspond to that area. Also, I-M423 is I2 is it not? How did that get there? Could it be that I2 was carried along side R1b into Ireland?

What about M-253
Ireland
Normandy
Lombardy
veneto
Hinterpommern
Latvia
Sweden
Norway
Yorkshire, Anglia and london
North Scotland
Denmark
Galicia -Spain

All viking and goth areas

Blau
09-08-11, 11:54
What about M-253
Ireland
Normandy
Lombardy
veneto
Hinterpommern
Latvia
Sweden
Norway
Anglia and london
North Scotland
Denmark
Galicia -Spain

All viking and goth areas

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Viking_Ireland.png

As far as i'm aware there were no Viking or Gothic settlements in Western Ireland other than Limerick but that surely couldn't explain it, especially not the I-M423. Picture shows Viking settlements during the 10th century

Blau
09-08-11, 12:00
Also I-M423 in Scotland? I presume that must have came over with the Gael invasions otherwise i have no idea. That must mean I-M423 arrived in Ireland before the 5th century when the Gaels expanded into what is now Scotland

sparkey
09-08-11, 17:49
I-M253 is just I1 and I-M423 is I2a-Isles and I2a-Disles. This is a good map of neither. Check out Maciamo's new I1 map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26648-New-I1-map) and his I2a map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25689-New-haplogroup-I2a-map) (old I2a which will be mostly I2a-Isles and I2a-Disles in the context of Ireland).

sparkey
09-08-11, 18:02
Anyway, I1 is probably mostly a Germanic introduction to Ireland, although there is some conjecture that some I1 could have been mixed into the Celtic-speaking settlers there. I1 is quite young and its expansion quite recent, though, so whatever I1 that the Celtic peoples picked up on the way to Ireland would have probably been a minimal part of the populations they were admixing with on the way... confirming the idea that it's mostly a Germanic introduction.

I2a-Isles (L161) is old enough to be a Neolithic introduction to the British Isles, as it is almost exclusive to the British Isles, including a very high percentage in Ireland, and is over 6000 years old. It since bottlenecked into 4 main clusters, although the oldest cluster is still quite old and almost exclusive to the British Isles. Probably most of what we're seeing on the map in terms of I2a is I2a-Isles. I2a-Disles (I2a1b1*) is a cousin clade that is much younger, rarer, and more unclear. Another, I2a-Western, has a significant presence in England but not in Ireland so much. There is also a little bit of I2a1a (probably also Neolithic as it has been found among Neolithic ancient DNA) in Ireland per the FTDNA I2a Project.

Elian
18-08-15, 06:43
I had posted a thread about this very issue recently. I have an Irish surname and I1-M253 with 'Ultra Norse' haplotype L813+, and matches in all the areas shown on the map you posted, but also further north in Larne and further west in Sligo. I had also been pressing the idea for a while that possibly my I1 was pre-ice bridge retreat or some other form of it but have been finally convinced that is highly unlikely. Not a problem, it's all fascinating. It does however make it at least slightly more difficult in finding matches who may also be relatives. I had joined an Irish family DNA project based in Ireland but virtually every one of the people who belong to it are R1B-M222 including those with my exact surname, and I had fully expected I would be as well. When I finally received my results I was pretty surprised. For one, not knowing a thing about all the other Haplogroups, I had never even heard of "I1". Secondly, most of my matches especially those I carry all the way through from 12-67 are located in Norway, southern Sweden and western Finland. Though I also have some in the aofrementioned map locations in Ireland. Some in Shetland, Isle of Man, Hebrides, Caithness, all down the eastern coast of England from far norther down to end of island. Also in Brittany France. Oddly enough considering the likely Viking source of my I1, I have as yet none in Orkney.

RobertColumbia
18-08-15, 15:52
I had posted a thread about this very issue recently. I have an Irish surname and I1-M253 with 'Ultra Norse' haplotype L813+, and matches in all the areas shown on the map you posted, but also further north in Larne and further west in Sligo. I had also been pressing the idea for a while that possibly my I1 was pre-ice bridge retreat or some other form of it but have been finally convinced that is highly unlikely. Not a problem, it's all fascinating. It does however make it at least slightly more difficult in finding matches who may also be relatives. I had joined an Irish family DNA project based in Ireland but virtually every one of the people who belong to it are R1B-M222 including those with my exact surname, and I had fully expected I would be as well. When I finally received my results I was pretty surprised. For one, not knowing a thing about all the other Haplogroups, I had never even heard of "I1". Secondly, most of my matches especially those I carry all the way through from 12-67 are located in Norway, southern Sweden and western Finland. Though I also have some in the aofrementioned map locations in Ireland. Some in Shetland, Isle of Man, Hebrides, Caithness, all down the eastern coast of England from far norther down to end of island. Also in Brittany France. Oddly enough considering the likely Viking source of my I1, I have as yet none in Orkney.

These discoveries are interesting, aren't they? I was surprised myself to find that I was R1b-M222, something I wasn't expecting. After combining the DNA evidence, the genealogical evidence, and the general history of North America and the USA, it now seems pretty likely that my paternal ancestors were from the original Ulster-Scots community that populated the Appalachian mountains in the 1700's (i.e. "hillbillies") and that a descendant came down from those mountains around 1840-1850 to homestead on the plains (i.e. the Laura Ingalls Wilder sort of thing).

If this conclusion is correct, it's not that surprising that my paternal line has been traditionally played down by my family and seen as mysterious and mostly unimportant. Being a hillbilly wasn't always a thing of pride like it is nowadays - back a hundred years ago, it was embarrassing and a sign of low class (i.e. so-called "poor white trash", meaning that you were poor and low class but at least you were white).

I also have additional Irish and Scottish lineages in my genealogy, including one that emigrated from County Mayo to New Jersey during the 1840's famine and one that came from Campbeltown and Glasgow to Pennsylvania in the early 20th century. It would be interesting to find out what the haplogroups of those lineages are, but I am not able to locate any living paternal relatives to test.

Elian
18-08-15, 21:45
What did you expect your Ydna would be Robert? I had only read up on the R1b-M222 line fully believing that is the halogroup my ydna would fall under. I'm still learning. I don't as yet fully understand the STRs. I have seen where people have specific SNPs tested but I don't know how they decide which ones(?). I also don't know what reason you would further test SNPs. What would someone be trying to find out when testing them?

Eochaidh
18-08-15, 22:25
Anyway, I1 is probably mostly a Germanic introduction to Ireland, although there is some conjecture that some I1 could have been mixed into the Celtic-speaking settlers there. I1 is quite young and its expansion quite recent, though, so whatever I1 that the Celtic peoples picked up on the way to Ireland would have probably been a minimal part of the populations they were admixing with on the way... confirming the idea that it's mostly a Germanic introduction.

I2a-Isles (L161) is old enough to be a Neolithic introduction to the British Isles, as it is almost exclusive to the British Isles, including a very high percentage in Ireland, and is over 6000 years old. It since bottlenecked into 4 main clusters, although the oldest cluster is still quite old and almost exclusive to the British Isles. Probably most of what we're seeing on the map in terms of I2a is I2a-Isles. I2a-Disles (I2a1b1*) is a cousin clade that is much younger, rarer, and more unclear. Another, I2a-Western, has a significant presence in England but not in Ireland so much. There is also a little bit of I2a1a (probably also Neolithic as it has been found among Neolithic ancient DNA) in Ireland per the FTDNA I2a Project.

Sparky, I know this message is several years old, but I wonder if you have any opinion on the HG I data from McEvoy 2006?

There are two names which descend from the ruling peoples of the Uí Echach Coba, also called the Cruithin which is cognate with Pretani who inhabited part of County Down in NE Ireland. The Normans never conquered them, so there was continuity into the era when surnames were common. The names are Mcguinness and Mccartan, (McEvoy normalized all names). His designation for the HG is seen below, although I imagine that it is out of date by now.

Any thoughts?

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l589/Knockbridge1/DNA/Ireland_800.gifhttp://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l589/Knockbridge1/DNA/Daacutel%20nAraide.png

RobertColumbia
19-08-15, 03:00
What did you expect your Ydna would be Robert? I had only read up on the R1b-M222 line fully believing that is the halogroup my ydna would fall under....

I had been expecting something more common in France or Spain, as there had been a rumor (undocumented of course, and possibly made out of whole cloth) that my paternal ancestors had been French emigrants to Kentucky. Considering that the story might actually be true, I had been predicting a possible result of R1b-DF27 or R1b-U152. Our last name is actually "Columbia", which is a fairly rare name (but is somewhat common in Kentucky), and it had been interpreted as a possible mutation of "de la Colombe" (of the dove). It now appears more probable that it was taken as a reference to St. Columba (who was actually a descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages). What's odd, though, is that the name "Columbia", in that form, appears nowhere as one of the Uí Néill (O'Neill) descendant clan names. There's still some mystery, I guess!

It's also possible that we both are descendants of some medieval spouse-trading swingers' club and there were cross-NPE's. That's probably not the case, but you can't prove it didn't happen!

Elian
19-08-15, 19:23
Very interesting history there Robert. I am thinking an NPE somewhere along the line a very long time ago in my case as well. I do a have split it seems in various people from my father's side hailing from different areas in Ireland. Dublin and Tullamore and then Wexford, Waterford, Cork and Limerick.