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Alan
10-08-11, 04:57
Should the description of J1 on this Table be revised.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-ethnicities.gif

Most of the J1 subclades are found outside the semitic World. There are indeed subtypes which are almost only present outside of the Arabic Peninsula. Like J1a, J1b and J1c3 which are very frequent in the Caucasus. The only subclade which is really frequent on the Peninsula is J1c3d.

Maciamo, so my suggestion is how about adding Caucasus into the description or splitting J1* into its subtypes just like R1b and R1a?

Maciamo
12-08-11, 15:42
I have updated the history of J1 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#J). However, as 80% of the J1 people are indeed Semitic people, I don't know how to find a better short definition for the tables. In the Caucasus, J1 is especially high in Daghestan. What do you suggest ?

Alan
12-08-11, 23:00
I have updated the history of J1 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#J). However, as 80% of the J1 people are indeed Semitic people, I don't know how to find a better short definition for the tables. In the Caucasus, J1 is especially high in Daghestan. What do you suggest ?

Well, like mentioned frequentially seen, J1 is much more common in some Caucasian Groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)#Distribution

It is also much more diverse among Caucasians, Mesopotamians and Anatolians.
J1 among Semitic People belongs mainly to the same branch J1c3d what can be explained with founder effect.

The Haplogroup J1 is definitely not Semitic in Origin. J1c3, J1b, J1a... have their origin in the Fertile Crescent.

J1c3d is a Semites specific Mutation of J1c3 from Fertile Crescent.

Maciamo I suggest we should simply add Caucasian to the description table. A splitting of J1 into its subtypes would be much and unnecessary work.

Maciamo
13-08-11, 09:41
Ok, I will consider it.

Ricardo
14-08-11, 01:18
J1 is a central component in the Classical Antiquity, a long period of cultural history centered around the Mediterranean Sea, comprising the interlocking civilizations of ancient Greece and ancient Rome, collectively known as the Greco-Roman world. J1 as a substantive part of the [IJ] Native European founder node was a core haplogroup in the development of pastoralism, agriculture and the complex ideas of civilization, state, monotheistic religion and the alphabetic cultures. The haplogroup J1 arouse around the Northern regions of the Zagros-Taurus range. The most ancient and basal forms of J1 (L136 negative and P58 negative) are essentially connected and mainly concentrated in Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran. J1 (L136-, P58-) was among the biggest single haplogroups in the Ancient Iranian peoples. J1 can be found in the West in old pre-historical movements in the Westernmost point of the Canary Islands or Portugal and at low but regular frequencies in any region of Western, Central and Eastern Europe. Distinct types of J1 also can be found in Western Europe as the result of warlike migrations and conquests like the Alans in Western Iberia (Northern Iranian and Portuguese-Brazilian cluster) and the Normans in Scotland bringing new Southern and Mediterranean types to Britain (Graham Project) with distinct and known modal haplotypes.

Some notable examples from Western European J1 haplotypes

J1b from the Ancient Portuguese Seaborne Worldwide Empire and the big Continental Brazilian frontiers
J1b type-haplotypes:
FTDNA J-M365 Project
J1b M365 blog

Scottish Graham J1c3d:
Graham FTDNA Project

And the FTDNA J1* Y-DNA Project:
The J1* 388=13

Maciamo
14-08-11, 08:11
Ricardo, if this is copied from another website, please provide your source and quotation marks.

Ricardo
14-08-11, 12:46
Ricardo, if this is copied from another website, please provide your source and quotation marks.

Hello Maciamo

I wrote it and I tried to post the citations and links but as I am a new member here I wasn't allowed to do it and I can't post any link because I still don't have 10 messages. I am the administrator of the FTDNA J-M365 and the FTDNA Brazil Project. I have been trying to understand the J1 haplogroup in the last years.

My name is Ricardo Costa de Oliveira

Regards

Maciamo
14-08-11, 14:12
Ok, thanks for the explanation and welcome to the forum, by the way. :smile:

Ricardo
15-08-11, 15:25
Ok, thanks for the explanation and welcome to the forum, by the way. :smile:

Thank you ! Soon we will discover new European J1 SNPs and new European J1 STR clusters. J1 types can be closely related to some historical ethno-national identities in a very particular way.

Goga
16-08-11, 02:23
I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??

Maciamo
16-08-11, 11:40
I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??

It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 14:06
It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.

This changes a lot of things in my mind. Especially with regards to gene flow and the ethno-genisis of the Arab people. Would like to see these results replicated in adjoining regions of the Caucasus.

Knovas
16-08-11, 15:09
If you see the West Asian and Southwest Asian components on Dodecad, both are very close to each other while checking the distances, meaning that the difference between peoples from the Caucasus and from Arabia is not so huge (although it's apreciable). It's possible they come from the same ancient source, but separated by thousands of years. Enough to produce the difference.

Actually, Georgians from the Caucasus side, and Saudis from the Arabic side, represent the maximum differenciated pole on each admixture (75% aprox). As more intermediate populations we check, sometimes the differences become incredibly trivial to distinguish if they are mostly from one side or the other.

Alan
16-08-11, 16:20
I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??

J1, a Haplogroup accused of being the sign of "arabic" invasion, is now known as one of the pastorals Haplogroups. And indeed J1 has its origin as Northern as J and is a sign of Invasion into Arabia not out of Arabia.

J1 former seen as representative for Arabs.
http://api.ning.com/files/eL-TWl4t1ESNJfrta12JbWsz47msL1V4ezdrrPrSQkvzvzFvOtkKO EXmWeVkqh14510jrmg4OhXThK-NHbVlij224vmpMLaM/egyptjordan1023.jpg?width=399&height=600

Is now seen in his original type as representative for this kind of People.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/1541973162_7fb36c5288.jpg
http://antranig.org/images2/lincoln_group.jpg

This changes the whole definition of Haplogroup J1.

sparkey
16-08-11, 17:27
Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.

Alan
16-08-11, 22:26
Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.

In Regions like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan a good portion of J1 is obviously the result of migration out of Saudi Arabia. But in Regions like Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Caucasus, The Haplogroup J1 is native.

You also have to know and understand how things work in the Near East. The Reason why only Arabic speakers of the Levant (Syrians, Lebanese) got some J1 coming from Arabic Peninsula, is because they were culturally and linguistically arabized. Means Arab male mixed into the Population and imposed their language and culture on them. While non Arabic speaking Muslims were culturally influenced but never became Arabs. It is possible that Arabs married woman of non Arabic speaking Muslim groups. But a rule in Muslim, especially patriarchal communities like Kurds, is that the woman belongs to the family in which she has married.

The Man does not become a Kurd but the woman becomes a non Kurd. This was also the rule among other Muslim populations. It was very rare that a foreign yDNA Haplogroups came through invasions.

Maciamo
17-08-11, 08:05
Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.

According to the new paper by Chiaroni et al., J1 started expanding from around Lake Van circa 10,000 years ago, when climate started to change and forced pastoralists to migrate across the Middle East following the rain patterns. This would have brought a first wave of J1 to the Levant, Mesopotamia and the Arabian peninsula. J1c3, the subclade almost exclusively associated with Semitic people, is thought to have originated in the north-west of the Arabian peninsula, and spread to the entire peninsula with the expansion of Proto-Arabic speakers in the Bronze Age. J1c3, and J1c3d in particular, would have re-expanded again out of Arabia with the rise of Islam. Note that countries like Tunisia and Algeria have over 30% of J1 and almost all of it (bare a few Phoenician lineages in similar proportions to the G and J2) can be attributed to the Arab conquest.

Taranis
17-08-11, 18:37
Fascinating. What I would be interested now is the question of Tuscan J1:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

Specifically, I would be interested in what exact subclade Tuscan J1 is, and if it is also possible to link it to the Caucasus or Anatolia. This would make a very strong case that the Etruscans indeed came from Anatolia.

Regarding J1 as a "Semitic" or even "Arab" marker, it should be clear that it isn't exclusively that, even though without a doubt the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate in the 7th and 8th centuries helped the spread of the Haplogroup. Also, it's been clear that J1 isn't the original "Semitic" Haplogroup either, because the Semitic language family is part of the greater Afro-Asiatic family (which includes the Berber languages, Egyptian and a few African language families such as the Chadic languages), and it seems far more likely that the original Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers were predominantly carriers of Haplogroup E.

Dorianfinder
17-08-11, 20:40
Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.

Any thought on the very recent Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region? They suggest 'origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation and genetic drift in situ.'

Alan
17-08-11, 20:55
Any thought on the very recent Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region? They suggest 'origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation and genetic drift in situ.'

With Near East they do not refer to Arabic Peninsula.

Dark Green is the definition of Near East. The J1 in Northern Caucasus is the Result of migration from Lake Van.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Oriente_Medio.png

Maciamo
17-08-11, 21:59
Specifically, I would be interested in what exact subclade Tuscan J1 is, and if it is also possible to link it to the Caucasus or Anatolia. This would make a very strong case that the Etruscans indeed came from Anatolia.

Unfortunately I don't know. I checked the FTDNA projects for J, J1*, and J1c3 and there are members of various clades in Italy, but no member specified from Tuscany. A lot of the Sicilian and Campanian J1 is J1c3 though.



Regarding J1 as a "Semitic" or even "Arab" marker, it should be clear that it isn't exclusively that, even though without a doubt the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate in the 7th and 8th centuries helped the spread of the Haplogroup. Also, it's been clear that J1 isn't the original "Semitic" Haplogroup either, because the Semitic language family is part of the greater Afro-Asiatic family (which includes the Berber languages, Egyptian and a few African language families such as the Chadic languages), and it seems far more likely that the original Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers were predominantly carriers of Haplogroup E.

I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.

Taranis
17-08-11, 22:29
Unfortunately I don't know. I checked the FTDNA projects for J, J1*, and J1c3 and there are members of various clades in Italy, but no member specified from Tuscany. A lot of the Sicilian and Campanian J1 is J1c3 though.

That is most unfortunate indeed. I still hope that eventually we will find out.

Also, it shouldn't be really surprising if you find a lot of J1c3 in Sicily, given how it was Muslim-ruled/influenced for a considerable time, and the concentration/distribution of J1 in Sicily seems to correlate with that. With regard for Campanian J1, I am a tad surprised though.


I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.

Yeah, I see. But don't forget about Akkadian. It is the oldest attested Semitic language (and after Ancient Egyptian, the oldest attested Afro-Asiatic language), but it is in quite some respects the most abberant branch of the Semitic languages, sort of mirroring the situation with Hittite inside Indo-European.

Goga
18-08-11, 00:21
We live in a very strange and nasty world.

I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.

sparkey
18-08-11, 01:40
We live in a very strange and nasty world.

I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.

I am a proud son of an endangered branch of Cro-Magnon who demands Europe be returned to its original inhabitants!

Er... I mean... how silly it is to be proud of a haplogroup. Even if an individual has an Arabian subclade of J1, it doesn't make them Arabian, and they can go on being white nationalists or whatever it is that people who are proud of their haplogroup do.

Goga
18-08-11, 01:47
I am a proud son of an endangered branch of Cro-Magnon who demands Europe be returned to its original inhabitants!

Er... I mean... how silly it is to be proud of a haplogroup. Even if an individual has an Arabian subclade of J1, it doesn't make them Arabian, and they can go on being white nationalists or whatever it is that people who are proud of their haplogroup do.
Some time ago I was searching for some info on google and I opened a forum from Africa were some individuals from an African country were very pleased that their nation had some J1 or something like that.

Ricardo
18-08-11, 02:14
Every system of classification is a political attitude. We could have some of the major European haplogroups just classified as [IJ], [PQR], [E]. Some people had a shock of reality when they discovered that the R haplogroup was not the "Old Paleolithic European Man" or the "Indo-European Maker" but they could be only a lost Asian branch that came from the depths of Asia as members of the node K (xLT) M526 (formerly MNOPS) seen only as recent latecomers to Western Europe. So everything can be relative and the different types/clades/SNPs of J1 can be as different as the different types of R1 or E found in Africa and in Europe, for instance.

Alan
18-08-11, 02:28
We live in a very strange and nasty world.

I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.

The difference between J1c3-J1b-J1a is as big as the difference between R1a-R1b-R2a. So it is as important to be mentioned as the difference between other Haplogroups.

Goga
18-08-11, 02:28
Every system of classification is a political attitude. We could have some of the major European haplogroups just classified as [IJ], [PQR], [E]. Some people had a shock of reality when they discovered that the R haplogroup was not the "Old Paleolithic European Man" or the "Indo-European Maker" but they could be only a lost Asian branch that came from the depths of Asia as members of the node K (xLT) M526 (formerly MNOPS) seen only as recent latecomers to Western Europe. So everything can be relative and the different types/clades/SNPs of J1 can be as different as the different types of R1 or E found in Africa and in Europe, for instance.You're absolutely right. And I do 100% agree with you.

The only thing I hope is that people don't mix politics and subcutaneous feelings with true science! Also some corrupted politicians use science in a very evil way. Haplogroups are a great 'tool' for the sincere scientists to 'investigate' history but a dreadful weapon in the hand of some individuals.

Ricardo
18-08-11, 02:52
J1 is passion and war (as every haplogroup is but J1's can be more sectary in my opinion). In the last Millenium different types of J1's with different religions and political projects fought different sectarious wars. In Portugal the Christian J1 fought the Muslim J1 and the Jewish J1, the last one not only in Iberia but also in Brazil because part of the Portuguese Jewish community, a notable community, went to Amsterdam and they decided to attack Brazil with the help of the Dutch WIC and they lost the war in Brazil too, so nobody can be a J1 without a kind of agenda related to a historical form of "identity politics". The ethno-national clusters can be quite important here.

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 19:07
The difference between J1c3-J1b-J1a is as big as the difference between R1a-R1b-R2a. So it is as important to be mentioned as the difference between other Haplogroups.

It is difficult to compare J1 subclades to R1. R1b is much more defined and is similar to measuring in cm whereas R1a is less defined and is similar to measuring in meters. J1a/b/c are poorly defined and are like measuring in km. R2a doesn't come close yet..

haithabu
23-08-11, 00:43
J1 is passion and war (as every haplogroup is but J1's can be more sectary in my opinion). ..............so nobody can be a J1 without a kind of agenda related to a historical form of "identity politics". The ethno-national clusters can be quite important here.


You sound like a J1. :wink:

Semitic Duwa
25-08-11, 13:37
It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.

The Caucasus is actually a region of low YSTR diversity as far J1 is concerned and we can see quite clearly a bottleneck effect linked to endogamy which led to J1*'s high frequencies amongst North-east caucasian speakers.
The two places where diversity is found are the Zagros and Ethiopia [100% of Oromo J1 is J1* and 29% of Amharic J1 were J1*] (as pointed out by Chiaroni and Tofanelli's papers).
And there was no such thing as "Kurdistan" at the time...
I should also remind you that Oman has relative diversity too...


I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.

There is only one E1b1b1 subclade which seems involved with the Semitic language family and that is E1b1b1c1 (M34+), a marker whose frequency follows neatly that of J1c3 (though being much less common, it peaks amongst Dead Sea Jordanians [bottleneck effect is likely to have played its part] and Ethiopian Semitic speakers while being found homogeneously amongst other Semitic populations)... Yet you forget one crucial element: Frequency doesn't provide a clue towards a marker's initial source.

As for Semitic being some sort of E1b1b1 product, you must also consider that languages are products not only of isolation but most certainly of interaction... And when addressing a language spoken by nomads, pastoralists and herder-hunters, you must take into consideration the fact that interaction is a fundamental part of its survival (isn't most of humanity speaking a nomad-derived language? Indo-european? Turkic? Semitic? Austroasiatic? With the notable exception of Chinese, most of the languages spoken nowadays were first spoken by nomads!), which is why Akkadian (first semitic language attested) also shares features with North-east Caucasian languages such a Chechen.

In proto-semitic vocabulary, we find many words for hills, mountains, bitumen and naphta (which are only found in the northern Levant)... A word for ice too, which suggests that PS probably has something to do with mountaineous areas... Like the Zagros where J-P58 and E-M34 have their greatest diversity.

Chiaroni cited Kitchen's Bayesian analysis of Semitic language and also mentionned E-M123 (E-M34's parent clade) in these terms: "Although J1e (J1c3) is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing towards the Arabian Peninsula. This co-distribution pattern of Y-chromosome haplogroups J1e and E-M123 resembles mtDNA haplogroups J1b and (PreHV)1 distributions that also display low levels of diversity despite their high frequency in Saudi Arabia."
So why the need to speak only of E1b1b?
Why is everyone so unrealistic?
Wasn't J1 found amongst pre-hispanic Guanches (Fregel et al)?
Haven't you wondered why it has high YSTR diversity in Ethiopia?
The concept that E1b1b1 (M35) is the only marker linked to Afroasiatic is kind of shallow as you have to explain R1b1c (V88) and J1's frequencies amongst non-semitic Afroasiatic speakers too.

Not even that, other haplogroups such as T1a* or J2a4h could be linked with the spread of Semitic languages.

Taranis
30-08-11, 12:46
Here is an interesting question: where was Proto-Semitic spoken? Semitic languages are spoken at the horn of Africa (specifically South Semitic ones, such as Amharic), and with the exception of of the Semitic family, all branches of Afro-Asiatic are only found in Africa. Therefore, one can speculate on the possibility that may be Proto-Semitic was indeed spoken at the Horn of Africa. At least, I do not want to rule out that possibility.

Regarding Akkadian, it is the most divergent branch of the Semitic languages, in many respects mirroring to how the Anatolian language (e.g. Hittite) are most divergent amongst Indo-European.

Semitic Duwa
30-08-11, 16:03
Here is an interesting question: where was Proto-Semitic spoken? Semitic languages are spoken at the horn of Africa (specifically South Semitic ones, such as Amharic), and with the exception of of the Semitic family, all branches of Afro-Asiatic are only found in Africa. Therefore, one can speculate on the possibility that may be Proto-Semitic was indeed spoken at the Horn of Africa. At least, I do not want to rule out that possibility.

Regarding Akkadian, it is the most divergent branch of the Semitic languages, in many respects mirroring to how the Anatolian language (e.g. Hittite) are most divergent amongst Indo-European.

Proto-Semitic has common words for "camel" and "horse", the latter was introduced in Africa when Semitic languages were already being written in Mesopotamia... There are indications of earlier horse domestication in the arabian peninsula (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/early-horse-domestication-in-neolithic.html) but we still need confirmation.

Not only that, there are common words for "bitumen" and "naphta" that are really only found in the northern parts of the fertile crescent... Semitic also shares many characteristics with Nakho-Daghestanian languages (Avar, Chechen, Lezgi, etc...) whose speakers have high J1* (w/DYS388=13 repeats) frequencies.

Last but not least, I advise you to take into consideration Andrew Kitchen's Bayesian analysis of Semitic (http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/rspb20090408.pdf) aswell as Nicholls and Ryder's reanalysis of Kitchen's data (http://www.ceremade.dauphine.fr/~ryder/NichollsRyderIWSM2011.pdf) which both support an origin in the Levant (the first paper was cited in Chiaroni's paper "The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations").

Edit: Support for an African origin mainly stems from the highly divergent Gurage and Archeological record (Mushabian and Fayyum connections) as well as the African location of all other Afroasiatic language families (yet they all have ancient Caucasian and Sumerian words).

Taranis
30-08-11, 16:09
Proto-Semitic has common words for "camel" and "horse", the latter was introduced in Africa when Semitic languages were already being written in Mesopotamia... There are indications of earlier horse domestication in the arabian peninsula (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/early-horse-domestication-in-neolithic.html) but we still need confirmation.

Not only that, there are common words for "bitumen" and "naphta" that are really only found in the northern parts of the fertile crescent... Semitic also shares many characteristics with Nakho-Daghestanian languages (Avar, Chechen, Lezgi, etc...) whose speakers have high J1* (w/DYS388=13 repeats) frequencies.

These are very good points that speak indeed in favour of an origin in the Fertile Crescent, this absolutely convinces me, at least if these words in question are attested in most or all branches of the Semitic languages, and must be assumed to have been present in Proto-Semitic. There remains however the question of how the Semitic languages relate with the other branches of Afro-Asiatic.

I also heard about the possible earlier domestication of the horse. This is indeed significant.

Goga
10-10-11, 17:42
What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2917/87881889.jpg

http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

zanipolo
10-10-11, 22:25
What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2917/87881889.jpg

http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong

Goga
11-10-11, 18:40
isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong

Although there is some native J1 in Europe, I do also think that it's from the Jews and some from other Middle Easterners. Not so many folks from the Caucasus settled in the States, so it is probably from the Near East.

But 25% is just too much. How is it possible when it is estimated that in the States live for about 5 – 6 million Jews?

I just don't get it.

Ricardo
12-10-11, 12:57
[QUOTE=Goga;383816]What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?

That's an old article. The sample was not representative of the entire population of the country/region but it was a biased sample directed towards J1's in some populations. All J1's SNPs and subclades are 458.2, so it can be considered as a kind of general J1 SNP and usually 458.2 is recognized as a J1 marker.

Nova123
12-10-11, 14:03
isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong


most of J1 people are Arabs

Goga
12-10-11, 14:43
That's an old article. The sample was not representative of the entire population of the country/region but it was a biased sample directed towards J1's in some populations. All J1's SNPs and subclades are 458.2, so it can be considered as a kind of general J1 SNP and usually 458.2 is recognized as a J1 marker.Thanks for explaining this to me.

Nova123
13-10-11, 12:44
Y-DNA lineage = Race or Sub race ,

culture (mainly language or religion ) = identity like : Arabs , Kurds , Berber, Turks, Persian , Greeks , Jews etc they are all cultural identity Not Racial lineages .

" Their ancestors spoke deferent languages & belonged to deferent cultures (i.e. identities-ethnic group ) as a result of historical circumstances they left there previous identity's & assimilated and adopted the new one language and new cultural identity that’s how all the large ethnic groups in the world were crated"

for example : J1 lineage is a Sub race of J lineage wish is a Sub race of IJ etc.. and all the human-race are the descendent of Y-DNA Adam lineage .Race has nothing to do with Phenotype such as skin color , face etc…. Genetic components are responsible for Phenotypes wish is changeable as a result of admixture or mutation .


example of Some Arabians Phenotypes :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26775-Guess-the-origin-of-those-women-(-Middle-Eastern-or-European-or-North-African-)


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26920-Are-they-British-or-Scandinavians-or-Arabians



it should be noted that Modern day Kurdistan is part of the home of J1 before there was such thing as "Kurdistan" or "Kurds " or "Arabs" etc.............

Kingfisher
13-02-19, 15:53
Under the Phylogeny of J1 it reads in part "ZS223 comprises the Cohen Modal Haplotype. In the Hebrew Bible, the common ancestor of all Cohens is identified as Aaron, the brother of Moses. Roughly half of all Cohanim belong to J1-ZS223. The Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) of ZS223 matches the Z18271 deep clade."

Shouldn't that be ZS227 rather than ZS223?