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Dorianfinder
15-08-11, 21:36
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQdeLWXELEugMG0moK0m2ePQKrec9Rh d7sfase5d5jQ5drAlUN (https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeN_DZuERTvaHaLP78KI4iECdJxuCO8 wLgTRkMZ9QZrww-6LpW)
Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach.

The Vlach people are primarily pastoralists involved in the raising of livestock, they have inhabited the mountains of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the former Yugoslavia and profess the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. Traditionally they spoke a proto-Romanian language and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups.
http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg
This figure illustrates two of the three origin theories as proposed by Bosch et al. (2005), namely that the Vlachs originated from either the Dacians or the Thracians along the Danube.

In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out.'

'All the Balkan populations analysed here were genetically homogeneous with the exception of some Aromun samples. This was particularly evident with the Y chromosome, as both haplogroup and 19 STR haplotype based data showed significant differences among the Aromun groups. Therefore, it seems that the Aromun populations do not constitute a homogeneous group separated from the rest of the Balkan populations, but that they present relative heterogeneity, especially for paternal lineage composition, between themselves.'

Bosch et al. (2005) posit the following theories regarding the possible origins of the Vlach:
1. Latinized Greeks
2. Descendants of Dacians who lived north of the Danube
3. Descendants of Thracians who lived south of the Danube

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 00:23
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/maps/Vlach_s_balkans.GIF
You may be wondering why Bosch et al. were so sure that any Roman introduction may have been minimal, especially as the Aromun population traditionally spoke a Latin language. They explained the Roman introduction away by stating that the increased frequencies of R1b in the Aromuns appeared to be connected to drift rather than to external gene flow (from Romans) as there appeared few instances of matches with Italians and a marked affinity with other Balkan populations.

The Bosch et al. study confirms what we are finding in Greek men with R1b-U152 on Crete and the Peloponnese. It appears the R1b in the Balkans was introduced before the Roman period with a possibility that the U152 subclade was introduced from Central Europe along the Danube and Dinaric corridors.

Milovan
16-08-11, 00:52
I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia. I'm sure dacian and thracian blood is in the mix too. I heard they were in yugoslavia before slavs, and slavs inhabited what is now romania. Slavs moved into yugoslavia and bulgaria then a lot of vlachs left to romania. They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania. I think they just conquered the region and absorbed it's older inhabitants.
Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.
I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.

I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.

All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 02:11
I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia.

I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.


They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania.

This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.


Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.

The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.


I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.

Bosch et al. (2005) found that Vlach STR haplotypes were similar to other Balkan populations, this included R1b (possibly U152) and I2 (Balkan subclade), with a general scarcity of R1a. This lack of R1a compared to the surrounding population is characteristic of the Vlach population and gives us an indication of the endemic haplogroups in the region before the Slavic migrations of the 6th century AD. Regarding R1a the Vlach correspond well with the Greeks.


I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.

The map is based on a rather controversial theory, ignoring many other regions where the Vlachs were established. The Vlach people formed a confederation much like what is found today where in rural communities a couple of villages get together to celebrate Orthodox feast days and celebrate their traditions together. The region of Albania was not exclusively Vlach though, they occupied primarily grazing land in the hills overlooking the coast and were separated with the introduction of geopolitical boundaries following the Balkan Wars. Some families remain separated even today.


All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.

The Romans may have ruled the Balkans but who were the Romans in the Balkans really, were they not people from the Balkans. How do you think it was possible to control the treacherous terrain without the support of the local leaders and elders. The Vlachs knew the terrain better than anybody as they walked across it every day, herding their livestock and hunting.

Bodin
16-08-11, 02:15
As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

Bodin
16-08-11, 02:21
As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 02:53
I once wrote an article on a defunct group from Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe according to Serbian sources, an Aromun tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, Roman or Dalmatian according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.



This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.



The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.



Bosch et al. (2005) found that Vlach STR haplotypes were similar to other Balkan populations, this included R1b (possibly U152) and I2 (Balkan subclade), with no R1a. This complete lack of R1a is characteristic of the Vlach population and gives us an indication of the endemic haplogroups in the region before the Slavic migrations of the 6th century AD.



The Vlach people formed a confederation much like today where a couple of villages get together every holiday and protect the greater interests of their society. The region of Albania was not exclusively Vlach, they occupied primarily grazing land in the hills overlooking the coast.



The Romans may have ruled the Balkans but who were the Romans in the Balkans really, were they not people from the Balkans. How do you think it was possible to control the treacherous terrain without the support of the local leaders and elders. The Vlachs knew the terrain better than anybody as they walked across it every day, herding their livestock and hunting.

i agree with you

just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta.
The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.

some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.

Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190.

I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 10:31
i agree with you

just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta.
The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.

some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.

Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190.

I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic

The Pamalioti and Pastrovici are mentioned in Venetian documents as title holders (benemeriti) and the Tuzi, not mentioned in period sources simply refers to the lords of the region between Podgorica and lake Scutari. These three areas were settled by wealthy landholders often described as the lords of Drivasto and Scutari. They appear to have been part of the ailing Byzantine Empire but found their place under the Serenissima as they had a good command of the local languages, the terrain and owned a commercial fleet of their own, based on the islands of Korcula (derived from the name Corcyra or Corfu) and Corfu proper. These areas were a Byzantine stronghold and were significant for these shipping 'Vlach' families as it was strategically situated between Corfu and Venice (logistics & warehousing). The term Albanian refers to the fact that these families were previously part of the 'Despotate of Albania' and kept their lands in Albania proper for many years following Venetian rule. They were not traditional Vlach but because they remained independent from the Serbian Balsic family and could not be viewed as purely Albanian the term Vlach seems to have been used as many of these families had Vlach ancestry from the mainland jus off Corfu, near Ioannina and the Zagoria villages. For the most part they appear to have ruled over their own lands surrounding lake Scurari, with a military and naval infrastructure based on various islands off the coast of Zeta and Epirus, they were styled as Albanian and Vlach depending on the source. They included some well known families from Corfu who were given full autonomy and titles of nobility in exchange for military support against the enemies of Venice. Because of their influence, these families often served as proconsuls for the Serb ruler, the Porte, Venice and the Angevin rulers during various periods. They were Greek and Italian-speaking, were members of the church of Constantinople, and owned large flocks of livestock managed primarily by the Vlach community.

Milovan
16-08-11, 11:28
I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 11:32
As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 11:53
I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD

From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.

Milovan
16-08-11, 12:22
I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 12:33
I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?

Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.

E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.

Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.

Maciamo
16-08-11, 12:54
In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out.'


The Aromuns tested by Bosch et al. differed a bit from place to place, but I think that this is due in great part to the tiny sampling size (19 to 65 samples for each group). You can't get a good idea of haplogroup frequencies with less than 100 samples. I would say that 250 is the minimum to avoid excessive noise and sampling bias.

Anyway, the Aromuns all had one thing in common. They have a high frequency of haplogroup E1b1b (around 17%), J2 (23% in average), I2a2 (also 23%), and except the group from Dukasi in Albania also a lot of R1b (around 25%). Another element that distinguish them from non-Aroum population in the Balkans is the near completely absence of Germanic haplogroups (I1, I2b, R1b-S21). Only the Macedonian Aromuns had a significant percentage of R1a (all of it Slavic).

It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.

Milovan
16-08-11, 13:13
I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 13:31
What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.

As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.

this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 13:38
It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.

I had a look at their R1b STR values and found more U152 predicted in the Aromuns from Stip (10 according to my estimations) and the Aromuns from Krusevo (est. at 4 individuals), both regions in modern Macedonia. This is contrasted by the other R1b haplotypes found in the Romanian and Albanian Aromun samples that displayed more DYS393 = 12 common in Anatolia. Overall the R1b picture in the Balkans appears more complex than a Roman gene flow would suggest.

Dorianfinder
16-08-11, 13:46
I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png/800px-Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png

Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.

As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.

Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/800px-South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png
Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.

Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.

Bodin
16-08-11, 21:22
I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?
QUOTE=Dorianfinder;378132]I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?[/QUOTE]
I am sorry I mised to mention Hellen contribution , because I was mainly speaking about Vlachs in today Serbia and Bosnia , I dont know much of Macedonian and Greece Vlachs, I also forgot to include Celts .I speaked about Roman mixing of Illyrians and Thracians after 9 AD , which didnt include Hellens , but did Celts. By my oppinion ProtoBalcanic genes are : E1b1b , some of J1 and J2 ( some come with Turks ) , I2*B , some R1a (comon ancestor before 11.000 years ) , G2a , some R1b ( exept Germanic ), T and L . By my oppinion I2a2-Din is not ProtoBalcanic but Sarmatian .
Also when you speak about Vlach in XIV century in Serbian state( Pastrovici in Zeta ), you dont speak about separate nation , by that time Vlach is become social category ( again I speak just about Serbia ) , sheperds who difrently from peasants have freedom of movement , paid different taxes , had autonomy under they own leaders. They also use to have Serbian names ( some of them ) , speak Serbian (all documents are on Serbian ) . When Turks have conquere , Serbia they also use this special social category for form of unpaid soldiers who are not paing taxes but going to war instead , and geting lands for plaughing for that service . My ancestors use to have Vlachian status , I even have a sultan berat . That is also reason why Croats call Serbs in Croatia Vlachs - because they moved there in that status to make a wor for Turks or for Austrians.

Maciamo
17-08-11, 09:22
I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml). It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority).

The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

zanipolo
17-08-11, 10:20
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png/800px-Romance_languages_and_Romanian.png

Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.

As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.

Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/800px-South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png
Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.

Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.

If you are trying to say that languages played a part in the U152 settlement , in which in italy is mostly in the North, then you language tree is in error because the Northern italian languages belong to the Gallo-Romance group and not the Proto-Italain group.

General classification



Gallo-Italian

Piedmontese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmontese_language)
Ligurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_%28Romance%29)
Lombard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_language)

Western Lombard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Lombard)
Eastern Lombard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Lombard)


Emiliano-Romagnolo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano-Romagnolo)

Emilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilian_language)
Romagnol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_language)





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italian_languages

I do agree with you that the Roman Latin and Romanian is similar, but check the lost Latin areas in map in the link below


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

To conclude - The only U152 to have been settled in the area in question would only have come after the Roman occupation of all Italy and the use of gallic Romanized men, be them from france or Northitaly

David Faux states that there is only 1.8% of U152 in Romania area.

The only other possiblity is that the celts reached the Danube delta ( black sea) , they have some U152
Sometime between 400 and 270 BC western Celts settled in southern Poland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. Celtic place names even occur as far east as western Ukraine.(R1b1c10 and the Central European Celtic homeland)
I outlined observations based on the doubling of the sample size of my
R1b1c10 database at http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm.

zanipolo
17-08-11, 10:35
The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

What year are these vlachs?. You don't think that over 200Years of Genoese U152 settlements could have palyed a part?
http://www.revistapeuce.icemtl.ro/17%20Oberlander%20.pdf.

merchants and royality was still using latin up to the 15th century.

Dorianfinder
17-08-11, 15:38
I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml). It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/L2_Percentage_of_U152.png
Based only on Dr. David Faux's database, but some numbers from the FTDNA project (Tibor) show a similar trend: L2 as a percentage of U152 increases as one nears the North Sea.

The sample size is too small and any conclusions regarding this graph for Romania would be premature, it does suggest that Romanian U152 is not of the L2+ variety.

Dorianfinder
17-08-11, 17:24
The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.

North Greece: I = 22.5% R1a = 18% R1b = 13% G = 4.5% J2 = 15% E = 20.5%

Vlachs outside Greece: I = 20.5% R1a = 10% R1b = 21.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 24.5% E = 16.5%


South Greece: I = 11.5% R1a = 10.5% R1b = 20.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 19.5% E = 27%

The marked decrease in I2 found in South Greece suggests a limited penetration from the north.
The high J2 figure for the Vlachs outside Greece is very interesting, suggesting that the Vlachs are of ancient Balkan stock and not an imported minority of Roman mercenaries as some have suggested. High R1b figures correlate well with South Greece (20.5%) and it would be interesting to compare figures with the Vlachs in Greece.

The Battaglia study found 17.4% R1b in a sample of 92 Greeks and 14% R1b in a sample of 57 Greeks from Central Macedonia in Greece. This suggests an increase in R1b frequency towards the South of 24%. This trend was replicated in the King study with 17% R1b on Crete and 15.8% R1b in the Peloponnese as opposed to only 5.3% in Thessaly.

Similar J2 trend exists in Greece with Crete and the Peloponnese (South Greece) indicating similar levels to the Vlach population studied thus far.

Maciamo
17-08-11, 22:04
The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.

North Greece: I = 22.5% R1a = 18% R1b = 13% G = 4.5% J2 = 15% E = 20.5%

Vlachs outside Greece: I = 20.5% R1a = 10% R1b = 21.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 24.5% E = 16.5%


South Greece: I = 11.5% R1a = 10.5% R1b = 20.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 19.5% E = 27%

The marked decrease in I2 found in South Greece suggests a limited penetration from the north.
The high J2 figure for the Vlachs outside Greece is very interesting, suggesting that the Vlachs are of ancient Balkan stock and not an imported minority of Roman mercenaries as some have suggested. High R1b figures correlate well with South Greece (20.5%) and it would be interesting to compare figures with the Vlachs in Greece.

The Battaglia study found 17.4% R1b in a sample of 92 Greeks and 14% R1b in a sample of 57 Greeks from Central Macedonia in Greece. This suggests an increase in R1b frequency towards the South of 24%. This trend was replicated in the King study with 17% R1b on Crete and 15.8% R1b in the Peloponnese as opposed to only 5.3% in Thessaly.

Similar J2 trend exists in Greece with Crete and the Peloponnese (South Greece) indicating similar levels to the Vlach population studied thus far.

The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.

However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 00:31
The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Ancient_Regions_Peloponnese.png/300px-Ancient_Regions_Peloponnese.png

Were you aware that the Sabines formed one of the three original tribes of Rome. The Sabines were from the Peloponnese (Laconia) and claimed Spartan descent.

In the 6th century BC the Roman populace was originally made up of the Ramnes (Latins) represented by Horatius; the Titienses (Sabines) represented by Armenius, and the Luceres (Etruscans) represented by Lartius.


However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)

You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?

Aromanian is suggestive of a likely Greek people who originally spoke and wrote in Greek, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was exclusively written in the Greek alphabet. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun.

The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where in Romania and in Greece the Vlachs still ONLY use the Greek alphabet, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.

The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.

Maciamo
18-08-11, 09:09
You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?

How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ? How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?



Aromanian is suggestive of a likely Greek people who originally spoke and wrote in Greek, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was exclusively written in the Greek alphabet. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun.

The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where in Romania and in Greece the Vlachs still ONLY use the Greek alphabet, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.

The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.

They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority. If they were simply Greek, why on earth would they speak a Romance language and have more R1b than any other Greeks (even South Greeks and Cretans) ?

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 11:34
How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ?

There are numerous examples where a local language is modified by a foreign group who bring their culture into the mix. The Yiddish language is but one example where despite the language being classified as 'High German' it only has a Hebrew written form.


How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?

How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't an isolated eastern group of Greek speakers whose language evolved separately from other Greeks being influenced by native Romanian speakers?


They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority.

Actually the most common script in Romania was Cyrillic, not Greek. The Bulgarian Empire made sure of this since the 10th century. So the fact that they used the Greek alphabet and neither the Romanian Cyrillic nor Latin is suggestive that they were originally Greek. Remember that the Vlach continue to use the Greek alphabet in Romania, exclusively. It has been more than a 1000yrs since they were cut off by the Bulgarian Empire.

Genetically the Vlach outside Greece correspond with South Greece. The lower R1b found in South Greece is hardly surprising as the Peloponnese was repopulated by Ibrahim Pasha in 1825 during the Greek War of Independence. Not to even mention 400yrs of Ottoman rule and the massacres on Crete.

Albanian R1b has a different structure to the South Greek and Vlach R1b. There is an Albanian cluster that is common only in the Albanian R1b population. Similarly the J2 common in Albania is not of the predominantly J2a1b-M67 subclade found in the Greek and Vlach population. Besides the Arbareshe population in Calabria has about 3% J2.:smile:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg
Semino et al. (2004)

The Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret the Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans 5 centuries ago. In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters (i.e. Greek Calabrians) agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. So yes, the Vlach do appear to be Greek afterall, not Albanian.:shocked:


If they were simply Greek

Wallachia (Vlahia) used by Romanians themselves, is a term derived from the Germanic 'walha' to describe non-Germanic speaking "foreigners". Similarly, in northwest Europe this gave rise to Wales and Wallonia. I don't suppose you really believe that the Vlach population was formed from the Roman incursions of 106AD. Such a small force of Roman mercenaries, all deciding to use Greek and bringing a lot of J2 with them. How funny is that!

Dale Cooper
08-10-11, 22:22
I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...

Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.

Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...

When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.

For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...

I hope you undarstand what I'm talking about... similar happenings happened in rest of Europe, on areas of ex-roman empire...such was Wales, Valonians, Wallachians etc... With exception of Wallachia becouse Wallachians kept their Roman language even today, and isn it interesting that Polish name for Italy is Wlochy? I hope you get the point :)

In Dalmatia, latin Dalmatian language died 1898, and that was not long time ago... 1898 died the last speaker of latin dalmatian language on Island Krk in Croatia... Today in Dalmatia we have reverse situation than in 8 century, today citizens from coastal cities in Dalmatia call WLACHS/VLAHS people in continental dalmatia...

In today Serbia, you have people who even today for their nationality place name: WLACHS/VLAHS, but difference between for example serbian wlachs (who declared themselfs in nationality as WLACHS), and dalmatian Wlachs, or Welsh, or valons, is that dalmatian wlachs are CROATS today, and welsh wlachs are WELSH today, or valon wlachs are VALONS today... they've lost their sence for nationality as wlachs (roman autohtone society) long long time ago... and there is no genetical connection between croat wlachs and serbian wlachs, or croat wlachs with welsh wlachs or valons etc...

LeBrok
09-10-11, 03:07
Here is some more interesting info from Wiki:

Wlah

The word Vlach is ultimately of Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages) origin, from the word Walha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walha), "foreigner", "stranger", a name used by ancient Germanic peoples to refer to Romance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages)-speaking and Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) neighbours. As such, it shares its history with several ethnic names all across Europe, including the Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_people) and Walloons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloons).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#cite_note-3#cite_note-3) Slavic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_people) initially used the name Vlachs when referring to Romanic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanic_people) in general. Later on, the meaning became narrower or just different. For example, Italy is called Włochy in Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language)

The term Vlach is originally an exonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym). All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Romanus) to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. (note: the Megleno-Romanians nowadays call themselves "Vlaşi", but historically called themselves "Rămâni"[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]; The Istro-Romanians also have adopted the names Vlaşi, but still use Rumâni and Rumâri to refer to themselves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs)


I found the above info looking for origin of people for Galicja/Galicia/Halicja. This region was possibly populated by Vlahs for some time, as it is bordering with Moldavia where they lived too.
I was also trying to find some connection with Celts, because of close similarity to Iberian Galicia, but there wasn't much to connect.
Here is what I've found:


Ruthene dialects


Several distinct dialects of the East Slavic branch are spoken in the Carpathian highlands and are called Ruthene (in German) or Rusyn (in Russian). These territories were subject to lengthy arguments between Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Russia for over a thousand years, today they are Ukrainian, though a part of Ruthene people live also in Slovakia, Romania and Hungary. Their culture is quite original, as well as their tongue which is usually subdivided into three dialects: Lemko, Bojko, and Hutsul.
The Ruthene language is part of the southwestern group of Ukrainian Ruthene dialects, which include Bojkian, Transcarpathian (Highlander or Verchovyna), Sjan (northeast of the Lemko Region), and Hutsul. The Lemko dialects are very similar to those on the southern slopes of the mountains (the Presov Region), also considered Ruthene dialects.
The Lemko dialects are characterized (and distinguishable from the Ukrainian language) by fixed stress on the penultimate syllable of words (as in Polish and eastern Slovak dialects, in contrast to movable stress in all other East Slavic languages); retention of the distinct vowel bl (y). Some verb conjugations are of the Slovak and Polish forms. Lemko dialects contain many unique forms, as well as words of Polish, Slovak, and even German or Hungarian origin.
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/ruthene.html (http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/ruthene.html)

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/sla.html (http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/sla.html)

This is polish highlander/goral from Galicja in ethnic costume, left. On right Portuguese Galician:

52525253

Also there might be some similarity to highlanders from Albania:
Pants and a vest.
5254

I have no idea what to think about this, just pointing some similarities, lol.

Yetos
09-10-11, 04:47
there is a big difference among Aromani kai wallachians,

vlach in Aromani comes from the word Villachians ->.... Vlachians and means villagers,
there 4-5 kinds of Aromani,

the kutsuk Vlachs which Italy consider them Italians and made them a kingdom in WW2
comes from turkish word and means small
the Moschopolis Vlachs in Epirus and Albania and some parts of Fyrom
the Moesian Vlachs with their Famous Hero Georgakis Olympios who started Greek revolt in Ias Romania,
the low Makedonia Vlachs
the south Mountain Vlachs of Greece
the Vlachs of East Bulgaria,
The Vlachs of ex south Yugoslavia for wich I know little things,

I don't know about the Vlachs Genes, but even they say that are 3 major Groups,
the Vlachs that come from Roman Villas in Greece, farmers in Roman houses and plantations,
the Vlachs around East Thrace, which were Latin Speakers of Byzantine Empire,
the Vlachs that had Rulling positions in Moesia Romania,

I repeat I don't know about the ex-Yugoslavia Vlachs,

their Origin could Be either Local Balcanic (Greeks -Thracians etc) who were Latinised
or from Italy following Senators that gain properties in Balkans,
remember that first Byzantine emperors were latin speakers
and Con/polis was named New Rome,

their connection with Wallachians I believe is small
words like Walha Valhalla and william Wallace are not romano-balcanic, but Northern
at least the south Aromani you may here the elder call them selves V(i)llachoi meaning the one who live in Villas (villages)

It seems like the officers of Latin speaking people who lived in cities learn the Greek language like the famous Families of Rulers in Moldo-wallachia but the villagers don't until the late centuries,

gfere40
26-03-12, 17:12
Hi there,
sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language

Regards
Grigoris

Diurpaneus
26-03-12, 18:58
Moravian Valahs DNA


http://neuron.mefst.hr/docs/CMJ/issues/2011/52/3/CMJ_52(3)_ehler_21674832.pdf

Yetos
26-03-12, 19:19
Hi there,
sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language

Regards
Grigoris

there are many kinds of Villachi -βλαχοι
the term comes from Latin word for village compare βιλλα -βιγλια a kind of Latin house keeping and village,
the word gets apokope αποκοπη Vilachi -i -> Vlach

there many kind of Vlachs as also many dialects
major in Greece are
the Moesian Vlachs -Μοσιο 'η μοσχο Βλαχοι
the moschopolis Vlachs - Arbanto-Vlachs αρβαντοβλαχοι
the thettalian Vlachs Kutsuk Vlachs Κουτσο-βλαχοι
are the biggest in Greece
smaller spots are
the Vlachs of Nymfaion Nedeskes
the vlachs of Peloponese
the vlachs of south Pindus
Vlachs exist in all Balkanic countries, and have no connection with Wallachia but with roman Villas

Vlachika is mostly Dialects of Latin which according area fits with the local sounds and words,
most relative language lingua franca is romanian as spoken in south East romania

how yes no 3
26-03-12, 19:59
I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...

Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.

Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...

When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.

For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...

I hope you undarstand what I'm talking about... similar happenings happened in rest of Europe, on areas of ex-roman empire...such was Wales, Valonians, Wallachians etc... With exception of Wallachia becouse Wallachians kept their Roman language even today, and isn it interesting that Polish name for Italy is Wlochy? I hope you get the point :)

In Dalmatia, latin Dalmatian language died 1898, and that was not long time ago... 1898 died the last speaker of latin dalmatian language on Island Krk in Croatia... Today in Dalmatia we have reverse situation than in 8 century, today citizens from coastal cities in Dalmatia call WLACHS/VLAHS people in continental dalmatia...

In today Serbia, you have people who even today for their nationality place name: WLACHS/VLAHS, but difference between for example serbian wlachs (who declared themselfs in nationality as WLACHS), and dalmatian Wlachs, or Welsh, or valons, is that dalmatian wlachs are CROATS today, and welsh wlachs are WELSH today, or valon wlachs are VALONS today... they've lost their sence for nationality as wlachs (roman autohtone society) long long time ago... and there is no genetical connection between croat wlachs and serbian wlachs, or croat wlachs with welsh wlachs or valons etc...

exactly.
Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...

Taranis
26-03-12, 20:06
exactly.
Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...

The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but being foreigners to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.

how yes no 3
26-03-12, 21:20
The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but being foreigners to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.
i am focused on Walach/Vlah... in south east and central europe (Greece, ex-Yugoslavia, Albania, Slovakia) it is about local speakers of language derived from latin...
russian primary chronicle refer to Roman empire as Vlakhs...


can you elaborate the reasoning that claims that in Germanic languages it was originally about foreigners in general and not about speakers of Romance languages in particular...

Templar
26-03-12, 23:52
I heard of a theory that states that:
Vlachs were pastoralist Romans (Roman citizens) of the Balkans who avoided being assimilated by the Slavs, due to their place of inhabitance being mostly limited to the mountains (Dinarid alps). They afterwards migrated to Romania which was underpopulated due to extermination by the Romans.

This would explain why so many Romanians have surnames which have to do with a pastoralist lifestyle. Example: Ciobanu

Source of the theory: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

Templar
27-03-12, 00:02
"in the lands north of the lower Danube we do not find any inherited Latin toponyms: not a single name of a Roman town or any other kind of settlement was preserved. The most obvious explanation of this is that the Slavs did not find Latin-speaking inhabitants when they migrated to these territories in the 6th-7th centuries."

"Indeed, the Dacians have nothing or very little to do with modern Romanians and their language was not related at all with Latin ‒ there is no possible cultural or ethnic continuity between the Dacians and the Romans, and even if it was, it would be irrelevant with regards to the historic rights over Transylvania. The Vlach were not Dacians, but an Illyric people, originated in the south-western Balkans by the south-eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea ‒ namely, the present-day Albania and Slavic Macedonia."

"Historical records and archaeological finds show overwhelming evidence that by that time and until the 12th century c.e., the Vlach people, that spoke Romanian language and had Romanian culture and religious tradition, were dwelling in another place: in southern Illyria, from where the majority of them were slowly moving towards present-day Romania through a long-lasting sojourn in Bulgaria."

"It was in the 11th century c.e. that the Vlach language split into the present-day Romanian and Aromanian. The first group crossed the Danube and settled in Cumania, then re-named Walachia after them. The earliest records of their presence in Transylvania do not precede the 13th century c.e, when Romanians were offered asylum by the Hungarian Kingdom after the Turks seized Walachia."

Diurpaneus
27-03-12, 15:25
@Templar


Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.
Scottish people are shepherds.Are they Vlahs too?
You don't have Hong-Kong like density in Albania.
Magyar chronicle says that when they entered Hungary they encountered Slavs and Vlahs.Anonymous-"Slavi, Bulgarii, et Blachi ac pastores Romanorum."
Romanian and Slavic languages both expanded as lingua franca(through Christianity) explaining why these languages are remarcably homogenous.



Why Regalianus claimed that he is descendant of Dacian king Decebalus?
The local people elected him Roman Emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regalianus



So what do you think about Galerius?
Was he nuts or many Dacians lived in the Roman Empire?

"Whatever, by the laws of war, conquerors had done to the conquered, the like did this man presume to perpetrate against Romans and the subjects of Rome, because his forefathers had been made liable to a like tax imposed by the victorious Trajan, as a penalty on the Dacians for their frequent rebellions."
"Long ago, indeed, and at the very time of his obtaining sovereign power, he had avowed himself the enemy of the Roman name; and he proposed that the empire should be called, not the Roman, but the Dacian empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galerius


Vulgar Latin "daca"-Dacian knife

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=dagger&searchmode=none

http://www.hadrians-wall.org/page.aspx/Interactive-Map/Hadrian's-Wall-and-the-Roman-Sites/Birdoswald-Roman-Fort

Templar
27-03-12, 16:46
Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.

I never said I supported the theory :P. Just said it was interesting and maybe even plausible.

gfere40
31-03-12, 18:07
Hi,
very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania?

Grigoris

Yetos
31-03-12, 20:49
Hi,
very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania?

Grigoris


That is because you are not aromani Vlach, But romanian who thinks he is Vlach,

Ειναι απλο, ρωτα ολουσ τους τοπικους συνδεσμους Βλαχοφωνων να σου πουν, οχι μονο στην Ελλαδα αλλα σε ολα τα βαλκανια.
το αν ο παππουσ ηταν ρουμανος δεν σημαινει οτι ηταν Βλαχος,
η γλωσσικη συγγενεια δεν σημαινει καταγωγη


οποιος ξερει Λατινικα δεν σημαινει οτι ειναι Βλαχος.


Everyone who knows Latin does not mean he is a Vlach

NickP
23-07-12, 23:03
The Vlachs and Aromanians are an interesting group. I think they do represent the original inhabitants of the Balkan region, as well as other people they absorbed. It's possible they and Romanians were closer together at one point, because their language is believed not to have split much earlier than a thousand years ago. There was probably a proto-Vlach/Romanian area on both sides of the Danube in southwestern Romanian and northeastern Serbia, while some say it was further south around Albania/Illyria. It's possible they split and went different ways, with Daco-Romanians expanding north and assimilating more Slavic peoples who already lived there, such as in northern Transylvania and Moldova, while Aromanians went south and absorbed Greek influences. But we don't know for sure. Some studies I've seen put the Vlachs as somewhat distinct from their neighbors genetically. I've also noticed some similarities with them and the Sarakatsani people of Greece, who are sometimes linked with Thracians.

I know J is important in many Vlach populations, and I thought R1a was relatively low, while R1b was higher. Guess it depends on the region.
Btw is E1b1b necessarily proven to be Illyrian and such? Given it's origins?

Malsori
24-07-12, 10:00
I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.

Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.

Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.







The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD

From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.


All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.

Templar
24-07-12, 10:50
so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.

zanipolo
24-07-12, 11:45
Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.

Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.








All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.


I recently read some notes/books, that the Albanians with their strong HG E ( which is an african hg) originated from a mix of african and phoenician people, these where called Libby-Phoenicians and they where the elite of hannibals armies. They moved to the shores of albania in small numbers and mixed with the ruling macedonian-epirote people under Philip V of Macedonia.
Albanian is the strangest Indo European language because it doesn't share the word snow with any other Indo European language. That means Albanians didn't come from Caspian Sea with other Indo European tribes but from Phoenician shores.

The oldest Phoenician colony were along Albanian shores:
Aulon-a from Elon or Elion (Phoenician) A name of the sun, recognized as one of the highest active deities or cosmic energies by the Phoenicians; rendered in Greek as 'Elioun. The Hebrew form of this word is found in the Bible in the phrase 'El `elyon, "the God or Divinity on high."
- Elyssium, Elysium from Tyrian princess Elissar or Elyssa (Dido in Greek).
- Foinike from Phoenician
- Lissus from Phoenician colony in Lixus
- Albanian Tosk dialect from Phoenician colony in Toscanos

Leptis Magna (http://www.historvius.com/leptis-magna-252/)
An important Phoenician city, Leptis Magna was later conquered by the Romans and is now an impressive archaeological site near Tripoli. ( origin of the libby-phoenicians, east of modern tripoli )


Besides I believe the illyrians where named illyrians due to a geographical area and where not one race. There languages and genes where different to each other.
- The albanians name was only first used in 150AD, so either they hid in the mountains unseen for 1000 years or they migrated into the balkans late

Now , do I believe that albanians came from the libyan shores - well no ..............
do i beleive they originated in albania - No
do I believe they where illyrian - no
Since the majority of albanins are E hg, where did they come - this is the mistery

bold text is copied from elsewhere

Malsori
24-07-12, 14:29
^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.

The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.


R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.

R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.

Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?


http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/4470/!via/oucontent/course/9476/gaelic_1_fig008.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/U152-S28-poE-CT.png

Apparently R1b U152 is most diverse in Western Poland.

Yetos
24-07-12, 15:29
^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.

The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.



R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.

Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?


http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/4470/!via/oucontent/course/9476/gaelic_1_fig008.jpg (http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/4470/%21via/oucontent/course/9476/gaelic_1_fig008.jpg)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/U152-S28-poE-CT.png (http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/%7Edubhthach/U152-S28-poE-CT.png)

Apparently R1b U152 is most diverse in Western Poland.


E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans

Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones

Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant

(Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician)

possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era

considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.

Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
since Akkado-Cyprus knew and had unlimited copper

by what I remember the highest peaks are in Greece and not in Albania (where are highest numbers) and mainly in areas were Achaians settled and not Arbanites,
E-V13 drops to Arberesh and Arbanites (correct me if I am wrong) and in many other Greek populations.

I even hear and read that E-V13 could come from liberation of slaves or Roman armies or Ottoman armies but I don't think so

I guess genetics soon will drop more light

Malsori
24-07-12, 16:57
E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans

Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.


Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones

Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.


Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant

(Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician)

possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era

considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.

Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
since Akkado-Cyprus knew and had unlimited copper

by what I remember the highest peaks are in Greece and not in Albania (where are highest numbers) and mainly in areas were Achaians settled and not Arbanites,
E-V13 drops to Arberesh and Arbanites (correct me if I am wrong) and in many other Greek populations.

I even hear and read that E-V13 could come from liberation of slaves or Roman armies or Ottoman armies but I don't think so

I guess genetics soon will drop more light

Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.

Diurpaneus
26-07-12, 20:51
Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)


E-M123 Cluj-1

E-V13 Basarabi-10
Brasov -7
Cluj -9
Dolj -6


E-V22 Brasov -2




G-P15(G2)Basarabi-1
Cluj -3


I-M223/ Brasov -1
I2a2a Dolj -1
Mehedinti-2

I-M253/ Cluj-2
I1 Dolj-4


I-P109/ Brasov-4
I1d1

I-P215/ Dolj-5
I-M438/
I2*


I-P37.2/Basarabi -5
I2a1 Brasov -13
Cluj -6
Dolj -5
Mehedinti-1

I-P41.2/ Cluj-1
I2a1b1a1




J-M241/Basarabi -9
J2b2 Brasov -3
Dolj -2
Mehedinti-2

J-M267/ Brasov-2
J1 Cluj -1

J-M410/ Brasov-4
J2a Cluj -4

J-M67/ Basarabi - 1
J2a4b Cluj - 1
Dolj - 1
Mehedinti -1


J-M92/ Brasov-1
J2a4b1


J-P58/ Basarabi-1
J1c3

N-M231 Cluj-1

Q-M242 Brasov-1

R1b-L21 Cluj-1

R1b-M269 Brasov-2
Cluj -3
Dolj -3

R1b-L48 Cluj-1

R1b-L2/ Cluj -1
R1b S139 Dolj -1
Mehedinti-1

R1a-M17 Basarabi -1
Brasov -7
Cluj -10
Dolj -8
Mehedinti-1


R1a-M458/ Basarabi -1
R1a1a7 Cluj -3
Dolj -1
Mehedinti-3

R1b-U106/ Brasov-3
R1b-s21

R1b U152/ Dolj-1
R1b-s28

R1b-U198 Cluj-1

T-70 Cluj-1


Sample size:

Basarabi -29
Dolj -38
Mehedinti-11
Cluj -50
Brasov -50






http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041803

Yetos
26-07-12, 22:57
Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.



Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.



Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.

That is true not only one but many

it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying

the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic
Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older

so your in post number #45 where you consider E-V13 as Albanian is accurate?
remember Hommer describes people in Troyan war as Ethiops Αιθιοψ so he knew that Egypt Ethiopean people came to Mycenes,
and I am certain that you don't believe when he describes Ethiops he meant Albanian

Malsori
27-07-12, 22:07
That is true not only one but many

it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying

the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic
Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older

so your in post number #45 where you consider E-V13 as Albanian is accurate?
remember Hommer describes people in Troyan war as Ethiops Αιθιοψ so he knew that Egypt Ethiopean people came to Mycenes,
and I am certain that you don't believe when he describes Ethiops he meant Albanian

lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.

The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.

And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.

Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.

5694

And please improve your grammar skills.I cannot follow your logic.

Yetos
28-07-12, 02:22
All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.





Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.



Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.



Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.



lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.

The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.

And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.

Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.

5694

And please improve your grammar skills.I cannot follow your logic.


Answers are here

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25568-African-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-in-Iberia


(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27647-Founder-effect-and-other-terminologies)http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27647-Founder-effect-and-other-terminologies



Question
in which study you find that in bold letters?
the only diversity with E M81 and E M78 is in Greece and is exact 2 numbers
in wich searrch and made by who you find that claim in bold?

Question 2
Balkanic E Hg is after botle-neck or founder effect?
and where this bottle-neck or founder effect occured? Cyprus-Levant or Greece Bosnia Albania?

Question 3
Do we have any Founder mutation in E hg in Balkans?

thank you



can you answer the questions for me plz since I am ignorant?

Diurpaneus
28-07-12, 10:38
Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)





correction: R1b-M269 Cluj-3

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041803.s001

kronach
12-08-12, 21:26
Hello I'm moldovan from Moldova and my mother tongue is romanian (usually we call it moldovan).

kronach
12-08-12, 21:59
If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
3. Sirbu (Serb)
4. Moldovan(u)
5. Grecu (Greek)
7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
13. Horvat (Croat)
14. Leahu (Pole)

I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language

kronach
15-08-12, 16:54
Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.

I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.

Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on.

If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).

The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
The word GREEK or GREECE comes frome GEORGE, GREGORY, JURGEN, ERIC, YURI, YORIK, YORK and so on. That mean that originally a greek was a soldier of the army of George, that's why in Christian world George is one of most important figures and a saint. This George is the same Chingiz Khan wich comes to us from chinese sources. This George (with his greeks) destroyd the first Roman Empire with the capital city in Troy, and brought the slavs and turks with him and maybe the helleni people (I'm not sure about this, I don't exclude helleni were living there before George's arriving).

So... a lot of Vlachs(Lydians, Pelasgians, Troyans) flew westwards were they had colonies and local people were partly romanized(don't forget at that time there weren't living so much people as nowadays do). Historians called this era Dark Age because they were germans, frenchmen, italians(I mean from West) and they knew that this part of Europe didn't have much importance at that time. The center of civilization at that time was in East where Dark Age come much later and is still persisting nowadays. Some time George Khan ruled over all Europe, but later Vatican church tried to hide this fact excluding anything that reminds us the word KHAN. I've found a lot of traces of word Khan especially in the West like Canada = Khanate or like Vatican = Father Khan (Papa de la roma, Patriarch = Father), Canute or Knut (danish king). Western romanized people tried to oppose new ruling calling the germanic peoples to join them. It lead to the emerging of the Frankish Empire and Catholic Church, coz in that time two states couldn't have the same worship.

Do you know that frankish kings considered themselvs Troyans? Historians (stupid historians) consider this aberations because between Troyans and Franks there is an almost 2000 yars. Well these kings weren't historians so they could'nt know much about themselves. How could someone believe that a blind Homer (blind means he couldn't write) so perfectly told his stories about Troy to people that after 400 years someone who knew his stories could put his words on paper. In Moldova, especially in countryside, people conserved carols sung at Christmas having the main theme "Troyan Wars" and this people have no idea who was Homer, because these carols passed on from generation to generation and Homer had nothing to do with these. That means that Troyan Wars took place not so long time ago. But of course Vatican did all the possible to forget about this nightmare sending that back as far as possible (13th century B.C.) and naming George in chinese way Chingiz whose army had never reached the Atlantic.

Why Vatican was so afraid of these events with Troy? Because Troyan Wars mean the collapse of first Rome and a new one was created in nowadays capital city of Italy, this way pretending that there was no other Rome and Vatican Church is the only legitimate power. The new catholic empire was named Francia coz of the term FRANC wich meant FREE, coz they got freedom from the George's army (greeks). Nowadays FRANC can be found as an economic term meaning tax free. This empire was also called Leon(Spain) Lyon(France) Livonia(Baltic countries) from LION that was the symbol of Catholicism. For the Slavs the main symbol was the BEAR, for others in Balkan, Anatolia, Caucasus is the WOLF. The kingdom of Leon in Spain or kingdom of Livonia in Baltic region never existed, these are a reflexion of The Empire of Lion, the same Galic Empire, the same Frankish Empire, the same Roman Empire of German Nation. This empire fell down after a civil war called peacefully Protestant Reformation.

This is a concise presentation of my views on history.

Diurpaneus
15-08-12, 19:08
If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
3. Sirbu (Serb)
4. Moldovan(u)
5. Grecu (Greek)
7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
13. Horvat (Croat)
14. Leahu (Pole)

I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language


If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
3. Sirbu (Serb)
4. Moldovan(u)
5. Grecu (Greek)
7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
13. Horvat (Croat)
14. Leahu (Pole)

I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language

I agree that Romanians,as a whole, are pretty mixed people(genetically speaking,not ethnic),but definitely they are NOT THE MOST HETEROGENOUS.
After all, this is the place where Central Europe,Easten Europe and the Balkans met.
But you can find here diversity from ancient times: there are several distinct cultures in the Early Bronze Age which probably reflects distinct background.

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/history-pre.htm

Anthropology studies from The Bronze and Iron Age usually conclude: lack of homogenity.


http://iit.iit.tuiasi.ro/Reviste/mem_sc_st_2004/mss_series_IV_tome_XXVII_2004_p245.pdf

Roman colonization and Migration Period also played a role here.


But, there are quite homogenous areas(not few,not small) ,some of them from pre-Roman Age,most notably:MARAMURES,OAS,,APUSENI/TARA MOTILOR,BUCOVINA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli




From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.
Horvat is a Hungarian name -bearers could be Magyars from Transylvania,Magyarized Romanians or Csango.
Rus/Rusu -does not come from "Russian",but Latin "russus"-red,reddish

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/russus


http://dexonline.ro/definitie/rus

Check out the Italian surnames:
ROSSO, ROSSA,ROSSI, RUSSI, RUSSO, RUGGIU, RUBIU, ROSSELLI, ROSSELLO, ROSSELLINI, RISSIELLO, ROSSILLO, ROSSETTI, ROSSETTO, ROSSETTINI, ROSSITTI, ROSSITTO, ROSSINI, ROSSINO, ROSSOTTI, ROSSOTTO, ROSSINI, ROSSONE, ROSSUTO, RUSSELLO, RUSSINO, RUSSOTTI, RUSSOTTO, RUSSIANI, RUSSOLILLO.

Ungureanu- Romanians from Transylvania were called this way by the Moldavians and Wallachians; it has nothing to do with Hungarians.
Arnautu-initially meant Albanian mercenary guard ,but the latter sense is "armed servant".

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/arn%C4%83ut

Neamtu, Nemteanu means inhabitant(Romanian) of Neamt region.
The same with Moldovan/Moldoveanu,Ardelean/Ungureanu,as for Vlah- it's not a frequently used name, Romanians didn't call themselves that way.

Diurpaneus
15-08-12, 20:44
This is a concise presentation of my views on history.


There's only two branches:Romanian and Aromanian- cause Moldavians are Romanians.

No offense, but this is Stalin's Agenda.
It contains "Moldavian" language also.
Unfortunately,still available.
His purpose was to cut all the links with the West.
Former Securitate fellows claim that Latin was a Thracian branch and Romanians are Pelasgians.

Related theories:Anti-Vlach propaganda from the South Slavic countries.
But guess what language did people spoke before Slavic migration.

Still,he did a lot worse:

Romanians from Basarabia and Bucovina in the workcamps of Kazakhstan and Siberia

http://romaniidinkazahstan.info/img/Copii_Siberia_1950_m.jpg


http://www.flux.md/sys/upload/2009/12.06.2009/p9/Copii-deportati.jpg


http://www.romanimea.com/images/Basarabia/gulagCopii2_s.jpg


Today Romanian comunity from Kazakhstan:

http://foaienationala.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/SimleulSilvaniei1-300x225.jpg


http://elldor.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Romani-Kazahstan-inaugurare-monument-deportati-31-mai-2012.jpg

Google type:romanii deportati Kazahstan

Yetos
15-08-12, 22:14
Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.

I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.

Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on.

If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).

The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
The word GREEK or GREECE comes frome GEORGE, GREGORY, JURGEN, ERIC, YURI, YORIK, YORK and so on. That mean that originally a greek was a soldier of the army of George, that's why in Christian world George is one of most important figures and a saint. This George is the same Chingiz Khan wich comes to us from chinese sources. This George (with his greeks) destroyd the first Roman Empire with the capital city in Troy, and brought the slavs and turks with him and maybe the helleni people (I'm not sure about this, I don't exclude helleni were living there before George's arriving).

So... a lot of Vlachs(Lydians, Pelasgians, Troyans) flew westwards were they had colonies and local people were partly romanized(don't forget at that time there weren't living so much people as nowadays do). Historians called this era Dark Age because they were germans, frenchmen, italians(I mean from West) and they knew that this part of Europe didn't have much importance at that time. The center of civilization at that time was in East where Dark Age come much later and is still persisting nowadays. Some time George Khan ruled over all Europe, but later Vatican church tried to hide this fact excluding anything that reminds us the word KHAN. I've found a lot of traces of word Khan especially in the West like Canada = Khanate or like Vatican = Father Khan (Papa de la roma, Patriarch = Father), Canute or Knut (danish king). Western romanized people tried to oppose new ruling calling the germanic peoples to join them. It lead to the emerging of the Frankish Empire and Catholic Church, coz in that time two states couldn't have the same worship.

Do you know that frankish kings considered themselvs Troyans? Historians (stupid historians) consider this aberations because between Troyans and Franks there is an almost 2000 yars. Well these kings weren't historians so they could'nt know much about themselves. How could someone believe that a blind Homer (blind means he couldn't write) so perfectly told his stories about Troy to people that after 400 years someone who knew his stories could put his words on paper. In Moldova, especially in countryside, people conserved carols sung at Christmas having the main theme "Troyan Wars" and this people have no idea who was Homer, because these carols passed on from generation to generation and Homer had nothing to do with these. That means that Troyan Wars took place not so long time ago. But of course Vatican did all the possible to forget about this nightmare sending that back as far as possible (13th century B.C.) and naming George in chinese way Chingiz whose army had never reached the Atlantic.

Why Vatican was so afraid of these events with Troy? Because Troyan Wars mean the collapse of first Rome and a new one was created in nowadays capital city of Italy, this way pretending that there was no other Rome and Vatican Church is the only legitimate power. The new catholic empire was named Francia coz of the term FRANC wich meant FREE, coz they got freedom from the George's army (greeks). Nowadays FRANC can be found as an economic term meaning tax free. This empire was also called Leon(Spain) Lyon(France) Livonia(Baltic countries) from LION that was the symbol of Catholicism. For the Slavs the main symbol was the BEAR, for others in Balkan, Anatolia, Caucasus is the WOLF. The kingdom of Leon in Spain or kingdom of Livonia in Baltic region never existed, these are a reflexion of The Empire of Lion, the same Galic Empire, the same Frankish Empire, the same Roman Empire of German Nation. This empire fell down after a civil war called peacefully Protestant Reformation.

This is a concise presentation of my views on history.


hmm it is atheory, but don't fit,

1)Latin and Celtic is a linguistic family which population I don't know how much fit with Romania and Aromani,

2) There is big difference among Romanians and Aromanians (Villachians)
the only connection is the linguistic and that with enough differences
I even heard Romania are Romania and Aromani are after Romylia-Rumelia but is still a theory

3) the term Greek is after γραιοι and not Saint George warriors it is an exonym and not an endonym

4) the case of Troyans is favorite after Virgil epic poetry, and not before,
ON THE OTHER HAND WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT ETRUSCANS CAME FROM MINOR ASIA, WHERE TROY EXIST
THYRRENIANS IDENTIFIED BY ANCIENT AS THE LANGUAGE OF PELASGIANS (Thoukidides)

kronach
16-08-12, 13:41
From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.

You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.

Yetos
16-08-12, 14:49
You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.

Ok and in Greece we have names Like Germanos Boulgaris etc
that proves probably the origin of some families, or the return back of some others,
I agree with you but name Grecu means either a Greek from ancient times, either the Moldo-Wallachian speciall treaties at Ottomans era when many Greek mainly rebels moved to Romania, or local Rumanians-Moldovans who once went to work or live in Greece and then return,

Aromani people are mainly Roman or Local populations that got Latinised,
Rumani are people from around Rumania (Moldova is relative to Rumania)
Roma are the roamers, a word in usage sometimes is gipsies though not correct

Aromani - Vlach is a linguistic termination of Latin speakers in Balkans outside Rumania and of non Rumanian origin,
in Greece there are 5 different Aromani areas and population from which only one has connection with Rumania the Moesian Vlachs or as they shelf called Μοσιοβλαχοι MosioVlachi

Vlach come from Villachion or Βιλαετιον a word that used in Byzantine times Meaning something like organised villages

NickP
26-08-12, 19:17
Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks.

Anyway, southern Romanians/Wallachians draw more toward the Balkans as an extension of it, Transylvania more toward that and Central Europe, and Moldova toward eastern somewhat. Moldovans were basically an offshoot of certain Romanians, probably originally from around Maramures in northern Transylvania, who moved east in the Middle Ages and brought their language there. But it's obvious that they mixed a good amount with Slavs and other peoples over time, even before Russians moved in the area and they came under Soviet rule, significantly more than other Romanians. It doesn't take an expert to notice differences between say northern Moldovans and Oltenians or Banat people on the other end of the country in the southwest (I'm not surprised the main haplogroups in Moldova are R1a and I, but unfortunately its not very well documented genetically). There's also some linguistic regional differences in vocabulary, with some more archaic vocab being preserved in different regions, and accents also differing from place to place to an extent. And the theory about Latin being spoken in the east and brought west by Pelasgians/Trojans or Dacian type people is completely unfounded and not based on fact or history, but more like nationalist wishful thinking. What kronach said is simply pseudo-scientific/historical and not legitimate in my opinion. It's rather embarrassing that some people come up with this but I'm not sure what you can blame that on. This forum shouldn't be full of this kind of stuff. Interesting, nonetheless.

Yetos
26-08-12, 20:32
Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks.




No I do not say that Aromani are Greeks.

I say that Aromani in each area they exist they share relation with the older before Romanization population,

what I mean is that aromani tribes are connected with the local population sometimes more than in between them,

I will not refer names but at a range where I live the phenomenon is obvious,
we see aromani villages in short dinstances like 10-20 km that are not connected and not even married among them,
the reason is that they belong to different armanesku tribes, sometimes they prefer to go km away to find a girl or a boy from their tribe, although near them exist armani village but it is from another tribe.

there are tribes of Aromani that are connected with Greek population, others with Romanian, Bulgarian etc in Balkans,
Don't worry they know who are they, and with whom they are linked.

NickP
27-08-12, 20:19
Yes, I can agree with most of that. Makes sense. There is plenty of variety among Aromanian Vlach groups themselves, even differing from village to village. It could be that they started out that way and were just Latinzed all together under a common language, but I also think it could be that over time in the centuries since then, they just absorbed and mixed with other nearby local people occasionally. Hard to say because their history isn't too well documented. But yes, some do feel more closer to Greeks or want to assimilate into the population, others to Romanians (many moved there that I know), and others just feel like their own unique people. And yeah all Vlach groups call or have once called themselves some variation of the same term, derived from 'romanus', like 'armãn' vs Rom. 'român/rumân', 'armãnescu' vs Rom. 'românesc/rumânesc', 'armãneascã' vs 'românească', etc. Some groups just put the 'a' in front due to the way their language developed.

this map has a theoretical starting area for the early Vlach groups and how they spread and went different ways, as well as the links to linguistic features of other Balkanic languages, which is interesting
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5143/valaquesvlachs.jpg

There's also Meglenites who are similar yet separate in their own way. And the Vlachs can differ culturally based on the countries they're in, be it Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia (Cincars/Tsintsari), Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia/Istria, etc. Still many have had that traditional shepherding culture, and were believed to be somewhat nomadic in antiquity, so maybe that's how they spread all over the place. There's other branches of Vlachs that even went as far north as Poland and Slovakia and stuff and blended in the local populations eventually, becoming more assimilated than other places.

But anyway this is getting a bit off topic, I guess, sorry.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
20-08-13, 06:48
Yes but this only talks about the vlachs in the Balkans,they also came in to western Slavic countries like Slovakia and the Czech republic. I would be curious to see their genetic impact especially on Slovakia, because that's where three of my grandparents come from. Also in my family we are quite dark and look very similar to a lot of Romanians.

Marko94
02-09-13, 00:02
I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.


LOL.

"Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
"Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_slava), specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settecento)."
With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
And for slavs moved in south.
In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
This surname are italians and NOT ​albanians.

Marko94
02-09-13, 00:11
I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.
In fact in the past are Germans to "proclaim" them to be illyrians.

Sile
02-09-13, 00:32
LOL.

"Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
"Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_slava), specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settecento)."
With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
And for slavs moved in south.
In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
This surname are italians and NOT ​albanians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans

Marko94
02-09-13, 00:49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans
Ok, ok.
If the map mostreb by dorian is "confirmed" i "suppose" albanians before the arrival of the slavs they stay in north balkan.
If my opinion is confirmed it would explain why in the Albanian language have so low greek and high slavs.

ukaj
08-09-13, 09:10
What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.

As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.

this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.
Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high

Yaan
08-09-13, 09:48
Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high
Rugova are E-V13.
E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant.
Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.

Yaan
08-09-13, 09:49
Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest

Garrick
08-09-13, 10:39
Rugova are E-V13.
E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant.
Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.


Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest

E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.

Yaan
08-09-13, 10:43
E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.
In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways

Garrick
08-09-13, 10:51
In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways

In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?

Yaan
08-09-13, 11:29
In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?
I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :)
E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)

Garrick
08-09-13, 12:04
I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :)
E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)

In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).

Yaan
08-09-13, 12:13
In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).
I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:)
As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century).
Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus. :smile:

Garrick
08-09-13, 12:54
I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:)
As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century).
Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus.

Yes, internet theories are frivolous, and we do not take in account. However your assumption about assimilation is very interesting.

I always thought Thracians as dominantly E1b1b1a1 people (with mix another haplogroups), but here in forum there is big group who argue that Thracians are dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Movements of R1a are interesting, because carriers of R1a according to science came three times in Balkans and only last time refers to the expansion of Slavs. Regueiro et al. (2012), Klyosov (2009) and another scientists claim that R1a is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans (of the existing).

I started thread about haplogroup of people who developed the culture at Lepen Whirl, east Serbia, 7 millennia ago. Researches of people in past would give a more realistic picture, we still here talking about assumptions, less about facts, essential tool (based on facts) are results of haplogroups.

We know now that R1a in Balkans in good part is not connected to Slavs. One of key questions is whether I2a2 is connected to Slavs, wholly or mainly on the one hand, or less (or not at all) on the other hand.

My opinion is that clarification of Thracian Y-DNA will lead to a clearer picture.

You write that events of the last few hundred years changed the situation. They could (ethnic cleasing, immigrations/emigrations). But assimilation don't change haplogroups, carriers of haplogroups remain, just in the case of assimilation they can be part of another nation (and religion). Your assumption about assimilation in related to my question is valuable.

Yaan
08-09-13, 13:20
Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is
Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din

E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly
I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks
Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din
E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous

Garrick
08-09-13, 15:23
Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is
Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din

E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly
I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks
Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din
E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous

(I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)

In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.

However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.

Yaan
08-09-13, 15:33
(I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)

In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.

However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.
Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones :smile:

Garrick
08-09-13, 20:03
Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones

You're right.

I once saw on the Internet (of course this is not a science), some Ethiopian equated all family E-M215, and all peoples who have over 30% E-M215 and all of its subclades put it in the sample basket. So some nations in Asia and one in Europe derived as black peoples. It's a wrong way.

I don't like when I see that in scientific researches authors give root family without subclades. When someone reads n% of R1a-M198, it can be M198, M417, Z647, L664, S224, Z283, Z282, etc...

Garrick
08-09-13, 20:25
Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that.

Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?

Yaan
08-09-13, 20:56
Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?
Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis :smile:

Garrick
08-09-13, 22:58
Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis :smile:

Поздравления. Very serious research with the samples of 808 people by regions. Yes, such research is lacking Serbia.

For me it is little surprise that Bularians are close to Serbs (key is MDS scaling B.).

Authors write (quote):

"This analysis confirms the position of Bulgarians close to Macedonian Greeks and in the proximity of Slavic populations from the Western Balkans, which is not the case with the remainder of the Slavic populations considered."

Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs and probably Bosniacs can be one cluster. Ukrainians, Croats, Hungarians, Russians are another cluster and they are far. (Authors entered Osijek's Croats, but Osijek is not relevant for this discussion, it is only one town with 115,000 inhabitants, one of the easternmost towns of Croatia, and in this town lived a lot of Serbs and Hungarians, mostly they assimilated today.)

It is interesting big diversification J haplogroups, a lot of branches, and R haplogroup too (perhaps for R would be similar in Serbia if scientists perform so detailed researches).

Sile
08-09-13, 23:47
Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis :smile:

I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands. maybe the migration from this E into Albanian lands occurred after the genocide by the Romans on the illyrian people .

to confirm this, we need data on thrace province which is under Turkey now

The I marker is a natural for eastern balkan lands.

The odd thing is the albanian J2-M102 marker is missing in the eastern balkan data


I would like to know if these thracian people had the E-V13 marker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

They are the only thracians that went with Alexander the Great on his Persian wars and another odd thing is they are lost to history and shortly after albanoi on the other side of the Balkans appear

Eldritch
09-09-13, 00:18
I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands.e .


What suggests you that?

As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?


The odd thing is the albanian J2-M102 marker is missing in the eastern balkan data

The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.

Sile
09-09-13, 00:22
What suggests you that?

As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?

By the equal spread of E-v13 in the bulgarian link. it means it was not an isolated migration of people. The albanian E-v13 is all in a blob, it can mean a single migration.

The E-v13 could have arrived in thrace/bulgaria with the persians in 500BC. The area was owned/ruled by the Persians then

Sile
09-09-13, 00:24
What suggests you that?

As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?



The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9179/qjos.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/qjos.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


albanians have 14.5% and kosovo 14.1 % of J-M102 and
albanians have 3.6% and kosovo 3.1% of J-M410
(http://imageshack.us)

Eldritch
09-09-13, 19:48
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9179/qjos.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/qjos.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


albanians have 14.5% and kosovo 14.1 % of J-M102 and
albanians have 3.6% and kosovo 3.1% of J-M410
(http://imageshack.us)
Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.

Yaan
09-09-13, 20:07
Or lets make it easy and call it J2b2 one of the Balkan markers. J2b1 is really rare( a bit in Slavs and Indians, so it was most likely one of the IE markers). J2b* is even more rare :)

ukaj
06-10-13, 08:25
In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).the kosova albanians have 45.7% ev-13,the 2 biggest tribes of kosova is kransnichi an some from kelmendi,both these tribes are from north albania,,so i dont belive the tests were don in north albania malesia because both tribes are from malesia,,,so i think malesia albanian ghegs carrier the highest ammount of ev-13,,45,7% ev-13 is very high,,i belive when serbs moved downwards they mixed with ev-13 but failed to assiumate them like they did in bosnia,an croatia,montenegro also has high percent of ev-13 an they also are from malesia north albania,,very interesting thoughts but i think ev-13 was a first in gheg albanians an we know that the ghegs are very tribal an dont like to mix with other cultures i am a malesia albanian an i know that the tribes of north albania an into kosova only mix within same tribes its laws of our people..an the ksova albanians were once catholics an in catholic laws the kanun i lek dukagjini is still used by the albanians of krasnichi an rugova albanians of kelmendi, both were catholic tribes that were pushed into kosova with the albanians an serbs their,,in 2005 oxford an standford had done samples their an it very high in ev-13..

ukaj
06-10-13, 08:31
Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.I dont know how correct these charts are because from charts i have read is much diffrent from oxford an standford uni,

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html in here you can see the diffrence if you abstract that is for free you will see,

ukaj
06-10-13, 08:33
wrong relpy

ukaj
06-10-13, 08:38
6033 Look at this chart

Sile
06-10-13, 08:42
Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.

albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia

Toscano
07-10-13, 18:51
albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia

Albanians where propebly the inhabitants of Balkan together with greeks. Then the slavic people moved in and mixed up.

Skerdilaidas
26-10-14, 22:20
E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.
Arbreshe community that reside in Italy should not be used as an example to determine what hg Albanians of middle ages had. Reason, they were mostly Tosks that emigrated to Italy from today's Greece and South Albania with a minority of Gheg element, and traveled in faras (Clans) as mercenaries (patriarchal). That should tell us that such groups were most likely not divers in halpogroups.

Yetos
26-10-14, 22:42
Arbreshe community that reside in Italy should not be used as an example to determine what hg Albanians of middle ages had. Reason, they were mostly Tosks that emigrated to Italy from today's Greece and South Albania with a minority of Gheg element, and traveled in faras (Clans) as mercenaries (patriarchal). That should tell us that such groups were most likely not divers in halpogroups.

Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA

albanopolis
26-10-14, 23:13
Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA

They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.

Yetos
26-10-14, 23:39
They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.


no they are the pure, the Arberesh of Hora Sicily are the purest Arber you can find, and they have the lowest Slavic admixture

they went to Koroni Peloponese after the battle of Thessaloniki and the death of Maniakis,
much before Arbanites invited by Latin rulers in Greece, much before Arbanon, much Before Albania,

all the rest are Albanian immigrants, the true Arberesh are 3 villages Hora, sant Demetrio and 3rd is away from remembering now

Skerdilaidas
27-10-14, 00:14
Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA
Yetos, I see that you are not very familiar with the chronological events and overall the history of Arbresh that reside in Italy. They first started to settle in Italy in 15th century, and have no connections whatsoever with Maniakis and the Principality of Arbanon (except that some of them might have migrated down to Greece from Central Albania about 200/300 years prior to their journey to Italy). The Arberesh that have preserved their culture to this day are Tosk in majority, while the Principality of Arbanon was Gheg!

Most of today's Arbreshe that have preserved their culture actually decent from the Stratioti that settled there in 1500s, that migrated there from today's Greece, hence whey they were also considered "Greeks" in the beginning.

Their most popular song that has survived to this day is actually a song about Morea, and how they migrated from there:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-oeyeClCPQ


Anyways, I want to say again that during those days Albanians warrior clans were quite compact in y-dna because of their patriarchy. My region where I come from, so far from all the people that have tested are either R1b, E-V13 or I1 because of these very traditions. So, if such a group emigrates or resettles in a different region, would not be ideal to study them and determine what y-dna Kosova Albanians have. Same thing with them, they mostly moved there from few regions....

daniel1983bcn
02-10-15, 07:49
Foarte interesant!

Diurpaneus
08-03-16, 11:01
A Morlach pair from Split(the Venetian/Italian term is Spalato,which

in Romanian means "Washed"):







https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Valerio_-_Paysan_Morlaques_des_environs_de_Spalato_2,_1864. jpg

"The Illyrian name(Splaunon, Splanum, Splanistae) of the town Split (‘Spalato’ in Italian) – whichprobably meant ‘town washed by the sea’ – verifies that another variant of the rootword *pleu was once *spleu, as shown – besides Romanian and Albanian – in theGerman word spülen (rinse)"


http://www.zeitschrift-fuer-balkanologie.de/index.php/zfb/article/viewFile/15/15


EDIT:

The morlachs were of Orthodox faith,mostly.

EDIT2:

A pattern of straightness.Should we try it again?

http://www.academia.edu/7453833/Being_an_Ottoman_Vlach_On_Vlach_Identity_ies_Role_ and_Status_in_Western_Parts_of_the_Ottoman_Balkans _15th_-18th_Centuries_

Diurpaneus
09-03-16, 11:01
Markeri STR autozomali





versus Valahia Transilvania Moldova Dobrogea
România (București) [91] 10 10 0 10
Turcia [92] 20 55,55 44,44 22,22
Grecia [53] 7,69 - - 7,69
Italia [55] 23,07 - - 0
Croația [51] 0 - - -
Serbia [81] 0 6,66 6,66 0
Ungaria (Budapesta) [33] 62,5 62,5 37,5 -
Polonia [93] 73,33 66,66 33,33 -
Belarus [79] 100 100 70 60

0-related groups


100-unrealted groups

Source:Florin Stanciu"Analiza genetică a populațiilor umane de pe teritoriul României folosind markeri STR"


Sample size:5777

EDIT:

The blood samples were taken from the suspects,victims or witnesses involved in trials,the database was provided by the National Agency of the Prisons(pg.12)

Diurpaneus
10-03-16, 12:27
To our Albanian girls:


There seem to be no other papers,and yet,I know what you did last summer,you won't get away,


"Another Romanian vernacular word is dandur (stranger) inthe Transylvanian dialect, of which no mention has been made so far and whoseAlbanian origin is also proved by István Schütz. This word also provides importantdata concerning the length of the Albanian-Romanian symbiosis and the assumptionthat the Romanians wandered from the Balkan Peninsula to the north in severalwaves, rather than all at once. The meaning of the Albanian base word dhëndër (inthe northern dialect dhânder) is son-in-law. We could ask with good reason: howcould such a great semantic change take place? Here is the way István Schütz argues:We can only understand this semantic transformation if we know the unwritten maritallaws that are still alive in the villages of Albanian uplands. [...] According to these rules,the boy brought his wife to the paternal home, but the girl was taken to her groom’sfather house, irrespective of whether he had won her by marital agreement or simplyrobbed her from her parents. [...] The wedding proposal and the redemption of theblood-revenge sworn for the robbery were arranged by either the fiancé’s father or theappointed mediators. Also, a host of mediators collected the bride and accompanied herto the groom’s house. Once, this was the first time the boy had seen the face of his futurewife. Three days after the wedding, the young wife visited her parents, accompaniedby her friends. However, the husband did not enter his father-in-law’s house.Thus, he remained a stranger in the eye of the girl’s family. The fact that the Albanianword was borrowed in the meaning ‘stranger’ clearly shows that the ancestors of today’sTransylvanian Romanians once lived in the neighbourhood of or mingled withAlbanian highlanders, and also knew their local customs "

http://www.zeitschrift-fuer-balkanologie.de/index.php/zfb/article/viewFile/15/15




,with this:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=97TkZOlGrikC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=valentinian+marriage+polygamy&source=bl&ots=FPfrri3Eqm&sig=gRWd-vbOnH0KB1CtpewDeXTxyBw&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR-9mP7LXLAhXoO5oKHV5SAU8Q6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=valentinian%20marriage%20polygamy&f=false


EDIT:

"In the medieval period, multiple wives were often obtained through kidnapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity

Diurpaneus
12-03-16, 17:54
Important words(mostly of Classical Latin origin) that reveal a more civilized background:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scrie


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%99ti

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C4%83iestru#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boare

Latin sOl Romanian sOAre


Latin bOreas Romanian bOAre

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/biseric%C4%83

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%AEn%C8%9Belege

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuget

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jude#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merge

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo#Latin




They had escaped from the absolute shepherdry(Vlachization),the 6-7 th c. Roman-Byzantine decentralization,caused by the Slavic-Avar invasions,and the Slavic influences.

Jewelry terms without Albanian correspondences:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inel


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cercel


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/br%C4%83%C8%9Bar%C4%83#Romanian


Just a thought:wouldn't this semantic change imply a military environment(it certainly wouldn't be the only one),having the meaning "keep it low profile,cause the enemy will see you"?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo

Diurpaneus
14-03-16, 10:58
https://books.google.ro/books?id=vWP1Ss-rrkMC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=vlachs+habsburg+army+bosnia+and+herzegovina&source=bl&ots=O4DpmJ-ZjJ&sig=_HlJ_l9jIwdfwnglvFMtvHCW2LQ&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKxvTc5r_LAhUrMJoKHYstA7gQ6AEIJTAB#v=on epage&q=vlachs%20habsburg%20army%20bosnia%20and%20herzeg ovina&f=false



https://books.google.ro/books?id=s6roAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA304&lpg=PA304&dq=vlach+mercenaries+habsburg&source=bl&ots=7biAPBsHuC&sig=qar_na94pIOftfwZ1ywsbJKSeV8&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8gMWv6L_LAhWiK5oKHdxIAsUQ6AEILzAD#v=on epage&q=vlach%20mercenaries%20habsburg&f=false

EDIT:

Speaking of self-will,there is a very comprehensive Romanian proverb, composed only from Latin words:

"Cainii latra,ursul merge"="The dogs bark,the bear walks"

Diurpaneus
14-03-16, 17:31
Just a thought:wouldn't this semantic change imply a military environment(it certainly wouldn't be the only one),having the meaning "keep it low profile,cause the enemy will see you"?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo




This shift could had involved the (Danube) marshlands too,since Latin "mergo" refers to tacking some actions into the water(I dip (in), immerse; plunge into water; overwhelm, cover, bury, drown,I sink down or in, plunge, thrust, drive or fix in I engulf, flood, swallow up, overwhelm.)


In the Roman times,the military activity seems to had overlapped with the swampland environment(mostly on the Danube limes),and this association is also present in another duo, "paludem-padure":

http://www.christopherculver.com/languages/romanian-albanian-parallels-location-proto-albanian-urheimat.html



The Huns and the Avars were skilful besiegers,so the city-dwellers too could've taken refuge into the swamp's forests.


But the military factor might've been also involved in this process,maybe sometimes alongside the civilian one:the strategy would had involved ambushes, by using an unfamiliar environment for the steppe-people,but also to withdraw to safety for a better regroup.


A very interesting semantic difference between these two substratum correspondences,Romanian "mal"(shore,bank),which in Albanian means "mountain", could've marked the initial geographical distribution pattern of the two populations.

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords


The Albanians too would've been (temporarly) disclosed from their environment(the mountains) by the invasions or summoned to help protect the limes,thus,learning how to "walk" into the "swamp-forest".


Eventually ,both the Romanians and the Albanians had lost the swamps to the Slavs,withdrew into each owns mountains(because we have always had two languages),but they had returned to descend in it once again,where they had very few early contacts(possibly as temporary "guests"-the Slavs used to release their prisoners after a while;or maybe it was the movement caused by the transhumance) with the Early (Danubian) Slavs,as it is testified by this Early Slavic loan,before the metathesis of the liquids:"balta"(swamp).

http://www.romanfrontier.eu/en/about-limes/frontier-stories-rhine-and-danube

http://www.danubeparks.org/?story=10

https://www.icpdr.org/main/issues/wetlands

https://books.google.ro/books?id=qTLSZ3ucaZMC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=roman+settlers+yugoslavia&source=bl&ots=pSBeDmBHNS&sig=qYq_GE3ZVCYlmD9JFt4qtbUz4y4&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimh8K4wMDLAhViJpoKHR2fBrQQ6AEIOTAE#v=on epage&q=roman%20settlers%20yugoslavia&f=false

EDIT:These are my ideas.

EDIT2:

The Romanians were inland people,because the autochthonous "mal" mainly refers to a river or lake bank,while the Latin "tarm" designates the sea shore.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%9B%C4%83rm#Romanian

EDIT2.1:

For the Romanians,the sea shore(tarm,from Latin terminus) was nothing more than an abstract notion designating the end of the land.

Diurpaneus
16-03-16, 13:08
"Without an own state, the Aromanians or the Vlachs were mentioned
in the Byzantine sources only when they came to be involved in some
way into the political and military history of the empire.
In Macedonia, they were mentioned for the first time with the
occasion of an event happened in 976. Several Vlachs called hoditai
(“travelers”) killed David, the brother of the future Bulgarian tsar
Samuel, on the road between Prespa and Kastoria. This testimony
comes from an interpolation in the chronicle of Ioannes Skylitzes
made by an unknown copyist who was obviously accustomed with
the local history of Macedonia.1 According to Werner Seibt, the
information comes from the lost work of Theodore of Sebasteia, who
wrote a biography of Basil II2. The word hoditai, which does not mean
“nomads”, concerns the same people who were recorded in the Serbian
sources with the name kjelatori, involved in the military transportation.
The name kjelatori renders the Romanian word of Latin origin călători
(“travelers”). Mathias Gyóni, Radu C. Lăzărescu and Achille Lazarou
sustained that the Vlachs guilty for that murder were guards of the
military road and that they acted as representatives of the Byzantine
authority against the rebelled Bulgarians3. If this information remains


questionable, there is another source that reveals the beginning of the
Vlach military units in the Byzantine army. Kekaumenos, the aristocrat
from Larissa, has remembered that his grandfather, Niculitzas, was
in the year 980 the commander of the Vlachs settled in the Hellas
theme. This Niculitzas, who was the duke of that province, was also
appointed by the emperor Basil II as archon of these Vlachs4. His title
of duke is an anachronism, because the commander of Hellas was
called strategos in Taktikon Scorialensis (975)5. During the lifetime
of Kekaumenos, the themes were no more ruled by strategoi, but by
dukes or katepanoi. Since the oral tradition from Larissa recorded that
his grandfather was the chief of that province, Kekaumenos believed
he was a duke.
The fragment belongs to the section Logos basilikos, considered a
different work by the last editor6. Even so scarce, the information is,
as has shown the Romanian Byzantinist George Murnu, a proof that a
particular territory existed in the theme of Hellas, a region that could
be called Vlachia. Actually, the source tells even more if it is read with
more attention. The function bestowed to Niculitzas in 980 was the
command over an army corps recruited from the local Vlachs7. This
function was received in exchange to the previous one, domestikos of
the Exkubitors from the Hellas theme, which was given by Basil II to


a German nobleman established in the empire. The Exkubitors were
one of the fourth cavalry tagmata of the imperial guard established
by Constantine V. In the 10th century, these elite troops were no more
settled in Constantinople, being spread in various provinces which
required a better defense8. Larissa remained in the following decades
the garrison of the Excubitores unit. One of the chiefs of the rebellion
of 1066, Theodore Petastos, was a skribon, the third officer in the
structure of the tagma of Excubitors.9 It is obvious that Niculitzas was
not downgraded, and this means that his new function was of a same
kind, the command over a tagma. In that time, besides the troops that
composed the army of a theme (peasant stratiotes who were mobilized
when it was needed), some provinces had a permanent force, a kernel
to which these stratiotes were added in the wartime. These permanent
units were called too tagmata10. The Vlachs commanded by Niculitzas
were most probable such a tagma. Being an important part of the
population of Thessaly and being good horsemen because their way of
life, it was normal that some of them were recruited in these permanent
elite forces."

https://www.academia.edu/18072996/Vlach_Military_Units_in_the_Byzantine_Army_in_Samu els_State_and_Byzantium_History_Legend_Tradition_H eritage._Proceedings_%D0%BEf_the_International_Sym posium_Days_of_Justinian_I_Skopje_17-18_October_2014_Edited_by_Mitko_B._Panov_Skopje_20 15_47-55


"Simultaneously, the existence of the hussars "inherited" from the Byzantine military
machinery of the 10th century intermediated through the Balkan can likely be detected in
the southern border regions of Hungary in the 14th century. In other words, not only the
ancestors of the succeeding Hungarian hussars should be traced among the Southern Slav
warriors fleeing from the Ottoman Empire, but also the Southern Slav or Vlach population
that served in the royal army of the Southern Banat regions might have belonged to them."


https://www.academia.edu/4141874/FROM_THE_HUNGARIAN_CONQUERORS_TO_THE_HUSSARS_LIGHT _CAVALRY_IN_MEDIAEVAL_HUNGARY




"The Vlachs were particularly suitable for the Ottoman government's purposes,
not only because they were mobile (their typical occupations were shepherding,
horse-breeding and organizing transport for traders), but also because they
had a strong military tradition".




Other Byzantine writers refer to to the transhumance of the Vlachs,
and medieval Serbian documents refer to them as shepherds and kjelatori --
a version of the Latin calator, "packhorse-leader", surviving in modern Vlach
as calator, "traveller". Their only other distinctive occupation at that period
was fighting: as hardy mountain-dwellers they were valued for their stamina,
and their supply of horses made them useful adjuncts to any military campaign.
The Byzantine authorities seem not to have trusted them very much, and generally
used them as auxiliaries; sometimes they functioned as quite independent irregular troops




Most of these early Dalmatian and Bosnian Vlachs seem to have led quiet, secluded lives in the mountains.But in Hercegovina itself, where there was a large concentration of Vlachs, a more military and aggressive tradition developed. There are many complaints in Ragusan records of raids by these neighboring Vlachs during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Vlachs of Hercegovina were horse-breeders and caravan-leaders who,
when they were not engaged in plunder, grew rich out of the trade between Ragusa and mines of Bosnia; some ofthem were probably responsible for commissioning the imposing Bosnian stone tombstones or stecci decorated with carvings of horsemen. Their trading links to the east must have brought them more into contact with the Vlach peoples
of Serbia and Bulgaria, who had long traditions of military activity in the armies of the Byzantine emperors and Serbian kings."

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm


https://books.google.ro/books?id=3orG2yZ9mBkC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=slovak+latin+cursores+cavalry+robbers&source=bl&ots=EEPt5VX2kT&sig=xlSv7H43iJaSGACIta_-wq6PI00&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqvvPehcXLAhUxSJoKHWiqCboQ6AEIGjAA#v=on epage&q=slovak%20latin%20cursores%20cavalry%20robbers&f=false






The Vlach riding tradition has surely an earlier origin than the Byzantine era,since turma exclusively referred to cavalry
only in the Imperial Age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turma

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turm%C4%83

Edit:

And alot of Latin words have been preserved in this respect.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cal

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/buiestru

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/capistrum

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sella

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/admissarius

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roib

Regarding buiestru,the first of the proposed etimologies seems the closest,since the suffix is Latin-derived,as in maiestru or capastru,
not to mention the obvious semantic origin- the fetter.

Edit2:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=2Wc-DWRzoeIC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=vlach+horsemen&source=bl&ots=44KvaLwDTb&sig=rd5I_GnchyDaMU0ItAr325zSYDs&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjssOSJlMbLAhXsCpoKHfDyCOoQ6AEIMDAD#v=on epage&q=vlach%20horsemen&f=false

Diurpaneus
18-03-16, 12:05
"Between Kastoria and Prespa in the year 976 an incident occurred, resulting in the death of the brother of the Bulgarian or Macedonian emperor Samuel at the hands of Vlach highwaymen.
This is the first mention of the Vlachs in history."

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl30_2.htm

https://books.google.ro/books?id=-71s8jEHWJsC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=vlachs+976+highwaymen&source=bl&ots=nC9Zot25O6&sig=zzXrj5oAlzib-heYUMCgIXNxGQE&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY08nU-cnLAhUCMJoKHd8zALMQ6AEILTAC#v=onepage&q=vlachs%20976%20highwaymen&f=false


"The four brothers David, Moses, Aron and Samuel of the Cometopuli dynasty ruled in the free territories and in 976 launched a major offensive against the Byzantines to regain the lost lands"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_conquest_of_Bulgaria




"The core of the army consisted of armoured Boyars and Bulgar horse archers supplemented by Vlach cavalry and Cuman horse archers. "


http://www.balkanhistory.com/medieval.htm




Regardless of their supposed habit,the Vlachs who killed David were military men,enlisted by the Byzantines to fight against the Bulgarians,while others did quite the opposite.


They had a heavy military background as it is shown by these Latin words that had semantically developed in the military environment,selected from Cristian Mihail, "Modificari semantice...":

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C4%83tr%C3%A2n

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lingula#Latin

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cumplit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cumpli#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compleo#Latin

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apleca

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/applico#Latin

indupleca(to submit,to persuade),from in+duplicare

(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcina#Latin)https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/duplico

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%AEndupleca#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcina

It also means "pregnancy" in Romanian:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcin%C4%83#Romanian


An alternative solution,without necessarily deviating from Mihail's conclusion.

"Augustus's attempt to raise the birth-rate did not lack precedent in Roman
history. Valerius Maximus teils the story that the censors Camillus and
Postumius, as early as 403 B.C., had fined elderly bachelors for failing to marry
and sire children (Va!. Max. 2.9.1) and Metellus Macedonicus, censor in 131 B.C.,
made a speech urging men to marry and procreate, which was read out to the
Senate by Augustus in support of his own legislation (Suet. Aug. 89.2). However
it seems unlikely that Augustus's attempts to solve the problem were very successfu!.
Tacitus states explicitly that they were not (Tac. Ann. 3.25) and in view of the
fact that the Augustan legislation was reinforced by Domitian and re-enacted in thesecond and third centuries A.D. it seems that the low birth-rate continued. Jones
disagrees with this view and argues that there was a slow but appreciable increase
in the birth-rate following Augustus's legislation.
Nevertheless there is considerable evidence for the existence of
marriages which produced no children at all or only one child, as &lsdon shows
a.p.V.D. Balsdon, Roman Women [London 1962] pp. 194ff.)."

http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/128/Devine.pdf

EDIT:

A consequence of a multitask legion?(Romanian copil=child,Albanian kopil=bastard)


https://powerimagepropaganda.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dillon-2006.pdf

:(

Or just Thracians?(The child as a burden)

"they sell their children and let their maidens commerce with whatever men they please"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

https://books.google.ro/books?id=5xthBNhPySEC&pg=PA378&lpg=PA378&dq=thracians+child+born&source=bl&ots=ZCU9qVxdn3&sig=QncPL6Vh3f3u4K9WWUS8JkPZ6Dc&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiI6cG9u83LAhWsKJoKHYqxCaYQ6AEIKTAC#v=on epage&q=thracians%20child%20born&f=false


sarcinam effundit, i. e. brings forth, Ph

http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=1014627

Diurpaneus
19-03-16, 09:47
The Vlachs from historical Poland,Ukraine and Russia




from "The Annals of UVAN,vol.IV-V,1955"


"During the Great Northern War (1700-1721) a considerable
number of Moldavians served in the Russian army"(pg.40)


"The Hungarian and Moldavian regiments, formed from these recruits, were stationed
in the Ukraine"(pg.40)




"In October 1751, Khorvat brought the first party of settlers to
Kiev, which at that time was the gathering and distributing point
for all foreign immigrants; it numbered only 208 people, including
women and children. Khorvat proceeded to St. Petersburg,
wThere he submitted a more detailed plan of colonization. This
time, he proposed to settle sixteen thousand people instead of
the original figure of three thousand, to be divided into four
regiments, two Hussar and two Pandur infantry, each of four
thousand people. In addition to the Serbs, Khorvat intended to
recruit Macedonians, Moldavians and persons of other nationalities."(pg.44)


"By orders of Ševic and Preradovic,
up to one hundred Moldavian and Walachian families were
settled in winter quarters and farmsteads of the Ukrainian villages
of Nyzhnye on the Sivers’kyi Donets in 1754, where they
founded Nyzhnya settlements."pg.72


"When in 1763 the Senate authorized Khorvat to admit
Bulgarian and Moldavian settlers living in Poland, it enjoined
both him and Glebov to watch that no Poles moved in with these
colonists"pg.80


It appears from the proposal submitted by Khorvat to the
government as well as from the charter granted to him on January
11, 1752 that the immigrants to Russia were to be of “Serbian,
Macedonian, Bulgarian and Moldavian nationality” and Orthodox
faith(pg.102)




The planned exodus of the Moldavians alarmed the Porte. In
1753, the pasha of Bendery approached the Polish authority and
demanded that the Moldavians heading for Nova Serbiya through
Poland be stopped and returned to Bendery. Tatar posts were
set up along the border to intercept the emigrants. Vasyl Movchan,
who reported to the Russian government on the situation
in Bendery, wrote to the Vice-Governor of Kiev, Kostyuryn,
that “everybody has rebelled” in Moldavia and “they all are
fleeing there [i. e., to Nova Serbiya].”328 It must be added, however,
that the practical value of this undertaking was slight,
since only a few Moldavians and Vlakhs settled in Nova Serbiya
this time.(pg.104)




"At a later date a fourth regiment, the Moldavian Hussar,
was settled in the Yelizavetgrad district(pg.188)


"In the Catherine district the land was divided among various
regiments. At first, it was decided in 1764 to form one
Hussar regiment out of the two formerly commanded by Ševic
and Preradovic, to add three Lancer regiments to it, and to
move the Moldavian Hussar regiment from Kiev"(pg.188)




By 1765, the activity of the special recruiting agents had
become energetic. Colonel Filipových, assisted by a certain
Myrolyub, Major Bashkovych, Lieutenants Roste, Stefanov,
Chechuliy, Ratmet, Nikolayev, Fedorov and others were sent
abroad in that year. They recruited Moldavians and Vlakhs,
Bulgarians, Greeks, Prussians, and “the Emperor’s subjects”
(inhabitants of the Austrian Empire)All new colonistst
were first settled in Kiev’s Podol. From there, they were
distributed among the various provinces, including New Russia.(pg.250-251)






"Many Vlakhs and Moldavians arrived in the New Russia
province between 1760 and 1770. Jassy and Focsani lost a
large percentage of their population by 1765 and the whole
monastery of Buzuluk moved to New Russia. The movement
of Vlakhs and Moldavians increased during the Turkish War,
since Moldavians serving in the Turkish army were eager to desert
and settle in New Russia. For instance, a large Moldavian
and Walachian unit commanded by Skarzhyns’ki moved to
New Russia and was allotted lands along the Southern Bug,
forming the nucleus of the Bug regiment.101
Colonel Vasili Lupul-Zverev, an officer of the Russian army,
was particularly active in persuading Moldavians to migrate
to the New Russia province. Acting in the name of the Russian
government, he dispatched a number of manifestoes in
1769, stating that Catherine II had appointed him “to receive
and escort people of his nationality into i:he Nova Serbiya
land.” Lupul-Zverev advised all Moldavians to leave the Tu rk ish
army and become subjects of the “Orthodox Empress.”
Later, Lupul-Zverev claimed to have recruited over 30,000
Moldavians between 1769 and 1771
These immigrants were
organized into a Moldavian regiment
"(pg.253)


In all, Lupul-
Zverev settled over 15,000 people."(pg.254)




"Güldenstädt remarks that Moldavians and Vlakhs were RAPIDLY
ASSIMILATED among the Ukrainian population and differed
little from the Ukrainians in customs and dress"(pg.254)

Diurpaneus
19-03-16, 10:03
"Further extensive colonization took place in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the Polish princes of Podolia encouraging the creation of large farms by Moldavian boyars;and in the eighteenth century, Russian generals took back with them from their campaigns against the Turks, enormous numbers of Roumanian peasants. In 1739, Gen. Munnich carried back with him 100,000 Roumanian peasants, according to the memoirs of Trenck, his companion; and_ in 1792, another great immigration took place. As a result, it is reckoned that there are probably half a million Roumanian peasants in Russia east of the Dniester."






https://depts.washington.edu/cartah/text_archive/clark/bc_29.shtml


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolokhoveni

https://books.google.ro/books?id=WDRzBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=andronikos+vlachs+galicia&source=bl&ots=IxV725wWkC&sig=m1RqCh1U7esmR4wdPAwnBIqVukk&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKraugpMzLAhXDJJoKHfmYB6EQ6AEILjAC#v=on epage&q=andronikos%20vlachs%20galicia&f=false



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magura_National_Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magura_National_Park)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magura_Cave

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C4%83gur%C4%83




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/






http://www.academia.edu/4388454/Kumans_and_Vlachs

about the "tower"(=fortress):

https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=dobromir+chrysos+fortress&source=bl&ots=9hQ0QBx1pk&sig=m4TRgSLQuWXomnA_GyHjz2vIjhA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7poXfuczLAhWjNpoKHdMKD6cQ6AEIJDAB#v=on epage&q=dobromir%20chrysos%20fortress&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&dq=vlachs+fortress+byzantine&source=bl&ots=Aq42Aia0x9&sig=Hz78CAB08ClxyZIDtjIDAPG7sZ8&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjV8bqz4s7LAhWBCpoKHY04DJ4Q6AEIUTAJ#v=on epage&q=vlachs%20fortress%20byzantine&f=false

"Since the Vlachs were faithfully fulfilling castle service, they were given
istimâlet, and their harâc was settled at the amount of 80 akçes like the filuri tax.87
In some instances, istimâlet included confessional concessions as well, such as a
right to possess churches, and the like. According to a report of Evliya Çelebi
in the mid-17th century, a regiment of the Vlachs numbering 1.000, was engaged
in the repair of the Buda’s castle, in addition to tax reductions, i.e., exemption
of the tekâlif-i örfiye tax, possessed three “Vlach churches” (üç aded kenîse-i
Eflakân) in Buda."("Being An Ottoman Vlach")


about the "tower" and the fitting into the Roman military-lowland(swampland) pattern(which was very closed to the highland one,especially along the Danube, Sava and Morava,because the Slavs had used the Roman roads and the Balkan valleys in their expansion):

http://www.staraplanina.eu/Balkan-mountains--map.htm

https://books.google.ro/books?id=qTLSZ3ucaZMC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=roman+settlers+yugoslavia&source=bl&ots=pSBeDmBHNS&sig=qYq_GE3ZVCYlmD9JFt4qtbUz4y4&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimh8K4wMDLAhViJpoKHR2fBrQQ6AEIOTAE#v=on epage&q=roman%20settlers%20yugoslavia&f=false




"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas"

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/ei/ei_1.htm


"Dacians"(geographical)=the northern/north-western frontier of Diocese of Dacia,the Danube and Sava

"Bessi"(geographical)=the Upper Morava valley,western Bulgaria and the eastern part of Republic of Macedonia

The Romans and the Ancient Roman Emperors=The Byzantines,Romaioi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Illyricum_%26_Dacia_-_AD_400.png

"Finally, according to Ce-caumenos, the Vlachs are descendants of the Daciansand Bessi, thus geographically localizing the Bessi
to the territory where the Vlachs settled later, which isalmost identical to the territory with cemeteries withrectangular vessels finds"

http://www.academia.edu/1305850/Rectangular_grave_vessels_and_stamped_ceramics_fro m_the_roman_period_in_the_Central_Balkans_A_contri bution_to_the_study_of_prehistoric_traditions_duri ng_the_Roman_

Diurpaneus
20-03-16, 15:34
Kekaumenos had in mind Simeon's Bulgaria,when the Empire had expanded to Greece(and Epirus),with almost the same western boundaries(south of the Danube) as Diocese of Dacia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Bulgaria-%28893-927%29-TsarSimeon-byTodorBozhinov.png

For him, the Vlachs were "Dacians" not only geographically,but also militarily ,holding mountain fortresses and attacking the "Romans"

A. Papadimitriou
21-03-16, 18:29
The Vlachs were nomads of Dacian origin according to Kekaumenos as you say. So the theory that they were latinized Greeks is wrong. This theory became popular in Greece since most of the Vlachs of Greece adopted a Greek (Hellenic) national identity. Τhe greek text says that before they lived "near (πλησίον) Danube and Sava". What do you think about the reference "where the Serbians live today"?

I 've read that Romanian, Albanian and Bulgrarian have one similarity. They have "definite articles" as suffixes. I've also read about an hypothesis that Albanian comes from "Daco-mysian" and that it has more similarities with Eastern Balkan Romance languages than with the extinct Dalmatian. So, that might say something about the origins of Albanian language.

The Greeks of Greece were calling themselves "Romii" (=Romans) and they were calling the Aromanians "Vlachs". Whereas the Aromanians were calling themselves "Armun" and the Greeks "Grek".

Yetos
21-03-16, 21:24
The Vlachs were nomads of Dacian origin according to Kekaumenos as you say. So the theory that they were latinized Greeks is wrong. This theory became popular in Greece since most of the Vlachs of Greece adopted a Greek (Hellenic) national identity. Τhe greek text says that before they lived "near (πλησίον) Danube and Sava". What do you think about the reference "where the Serbians live today"?

I 've read that Romanian, Albanian and Bulgrarian have one similarity. They have "definite articles" as suffixes. I've also read about an hypothesis that Albanian comes from "Daco-mysian" and that it has more similarities with Eastern Balkan Romance languages than with the extinct Dalmatian. So, that might say something about the origins of Albanian language.

The Greeks of Greece were calling themselves "Romii" (=Romans) and they were calling the Aromanians "Vlachs". Whereas the "Aromanians" were calling themselves "Armun" and the Greeks "Grek".


Vlachs is general term for all Latin Speaking populations of Balkans,
there are many Theories, Like
Vilachs, from Latin Villas
Wallachs from Wallachia
Generally are considered :
1) ex-Roman Legeoners like the Pharsallos Vlachs Thessaly who come from Roman Legions retired and Desband to create 4rth Macedonica Legion (Vespacian)
2) Illyrian tribes, Illyrian spoke Celtic languages and not Albanian, specially around West and North parts of Makedonia Nova Epirus, and FYROM.
3) Cingueari from Legion V cantral and east Makedonia Fyrom and Bulgaria,
4) Local balcanic population that work or lived at Roman Villas so mixed with Roman/Latin speakers
5) Local Balkanic populations that were latinised by Flavians, Flavians ruled Blakns and Con/polis for centuries, and officially state language was Roman/Latin
Flavians wrote CODEXes and not Kanones-Nomoi (Κανονες-Nομοι)
6) Few remants from Crusades spoted in few certain places

Vlachs in some areas means peasant (villager)
Their inner names are from language they use. like Aromani, Armanesti
there are group of Vlachs that have no connection among each other, and certify the difference among the tribes

Romania was latinised due to heavy Roman legions occupation, and goverment and education
Romania was Getto-Thracian speaking, and also has quite significant Slavic population, although speaks Latin

Even among MoschoVlachs, KoutsoVlachs MegleVlachs MoesioVlachs etc (big Aromanian tribes) etc lingusitic differences exist due to the origin of population
searching the village they come from you will see either a Historical legion disband, either a long time military camp, either elite Roman rulers fields and villages or cities (Λατιφουντια)


PS
the origin of termination Vlach or βλαχος is still not certified
possibly origins
1) well considering that are connected with Latin language many believe that is connected with Latin word for small self-suficient foundations call Villas
2) the connectivity of Armanesti with Romanian gave some the idea that has to do with Wallachia, area where Herodotus puts Keltos to Live
3) searching older IE tribes connectivity we see that Galates spoke Belgae, Galates were Gauls, but that G with B and W have a coonection,
Walles Walloons Wallachs are all conected Galates Keltes, probably has to do with a word for speak, yell, and possibly meant tongue/language
compare yell Wall Gaul Kel and Γλωσσα
4) it is certified that at Thessaly area at Pharsallos Roman Vespasian gave lands to disbanded Legions, Pharsallos is the same word with Versailles (compare Verenika-Pherenike)

Diurpaneus
04-04-16, 13:38
Romanian "mare"(big,large,great,important;referring to objects and people as well) is a Latin-derived word(the morphology obviously points to this;similar to "tare" and others),developed in Thracian circumstances and backuped by the Germanic presence.


The semantic difference seems pretty big , since this word comes from Latin "mas/maris"(a male),but it must be considered the Pre-Roman way of thinking/life,where we have the following equation,


"big men= important/great men",and Pyrmerulas is not an exception from this rule,it's about the "Big Maize" as a demanded good harvest,as well as the"Great Maize",the divine messenger that ensures it.




"The epithet Pyrumerulas (variants: Pyrmerulas, Pyrymerylas, Pirmerulas), which occurs as an epithet of the Thracian deity of Heros,
is obviously a two-component word. The first component is linked to the Greek pyrós ‘maize, corn’ from the IE *puro-,
compare also to the Lith. purai ‘winter maize’, the Latv. puri ‘maize’, the Church Slavonic peiro ‘spelt’, etc.;
the second component is an extension of the stem of the IE verb *mer- ‘big, great’ in Slavic personal names, ending in -mer (Vladimer),
the Old-HighGerman -mar in names suc as Volk-mar, Hlodo-mar, the Gal. -maros in names as Nerto-maros ‘great-in-strength’, the Old-Icel. mar ‘big’."


http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_4d.html


"mer- ‘large, great’ [Church Slavic personal name Vladi-mer, Old-HighGerman Volk-mar, Hlodo-mar, Old-Icel. mar ‘big’]."

http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_5.html




"But the strongholds which now stand beyond Pontes he himself built new;
these are named p275Mareburgou and Susiana, Harmata and Timena, and Theodoropolis, Stiliburgou and Halicaniburgou."


"Nor did he neglect the fort named Burgualtu, which previously was desolate and wholly without inhabitants,
but also surrounded with a new circuit-wall another place which they call Gombes."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Procopius/Buildings/4B*.html


Mareburgu=Big Fortress


Burgualtu=High Fortress


The source of Aromanian"mare/mari" might've been Kekaumenos' "Dacians".


This word is absent in Albanian,a language that has many Latin loans of Romanian type.



English meaning: big, important
Deutsche Ubersetzung: “gros, ansehnlich”
Material: Positiv me-ro-s, mo-ro-s: Gk. -miros “big, large (?) in
Speerwerfen” under likewise, O.Ir. mor (das o from dem comparative), mar “big, large”,
Welsh mawr “big, large”, Bret. meur ds., Gaul. -maros in Eigennamen as Nerto-maros (“big,
large in power “); with e O.H.G. -mar in names as Volk-mar etc., further das denominative
Gmc. *merjan “*as gros darstellen, vaunt “, from which “kunden”: Goth. merjan, O.S.
marian, O.H.G. maren, O.N. maera “ announce, declare “, wherefore Ger. Mar, Marchen
under likewise, as well as das post-verbal adj. O.H.G. O.S. mari “illustrious, gleaming”, O.E.
maere, O.N. maerr ds., Goth. waila-mereis “from gutem shout, call”;
Slav. -meri in names as Vladi-meri(Pokorny)


EDIT:




The Celts were no longer present in the area after the campaigns of Burebista.


Regardless of the adoption of "burg" by the Romans and Byzantines,Stilliburgou and Halicaniburgou are obviously Germanic.


" In the older literature it was often thought that the Iron Gate region was inhabited predominantly by the Scordisci. According to the Roman historian Appian (http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_illyrian_00.html), after their defeat in 84 BC, the surviving groups of the Scordisci withdrew to the south bank of the river and to some islands in the stream. New excavations, however, suggest that the Scordisci left behind few traces in these places and most likely settled much farther to the west in the modern region of Srem. The Iron Gate, in general terms, was the territory of the Dacians and the Getae, tribes that were united about the middle of the first century BC under the leadership of Burebista into a cohesive and strong confederation, which was a clear forerunner of the Dacian state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia) whose strength the Romans were to experience to their disadvantage in the first century AD"

http://danube-cooperation.com/danubius/2012/06/12/roman-limes-frontier-line-of-the-roman-empire-in-the-iron-gate-area/

Diurpaneus
06-04-16, 19:03
The Aromuns,like all Vlachs and Romanians,had lived in "Bulgaria",Aromanian has Slavo-Bulgarian loans,plus the composite word "untulemnu"(oil),Romanian "untdelemn",literally "butter-of-wood", who is just a translation of the Bulgarian "darveno maslo".


The Aromuns(or at least their "Bessi" part) surely knew of Thessaloniki,preserving it in the form of Saruna(the rhotacization of Salona),they have also exclusively kept some southern-type vocabulary,hic(latin ficus),caroari(heat;latin calorem).
After the Slavic invasion/settlement the Latin speakers had withdrawn into the highlands forming scattered groups that had kept strong ties between each other through transhumance/pastoralism.
Kekaumenos view of Vlach's ancestors corresponds with this:they were "Dacians" and "Bessi", two geographically-separated communities.


The "Bessi"'s origin was diverse:from the citymen or farmers of Roman,Thracian and Thraco-Dardano-(and Macedonian?) origin ,who lived in towns like Scupi(Skopje), Naissus(Nis) and along the Upper Vardar or the Southern Morava valleys,
to the highland herdsmen of real Bessian stock,that had been Christianized by Nicetas of Remesiana .


The (southern part) of the "Dacians" dwelled along the Danube,especially in the lands situated east of Morava river,in eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria.They were of legionary tradition,the genetic base would have been the Roman soldiers detached along the Danube limes and,somehow coincidentally, the autochthonous Thraco-Dacians.




"Dacian" toponyms:


Latin-derived toponymy from the above-mentioned area:Timok(Timacus),Florentin(Florentiana),Archar( Ratiaria),Motru(Amutriam,Amutria),Ogosta(Augusta), Vidin-Budin(Bonomia),Cibrica(Cebrus).


Toponymy inherited from the Roman Age:Osam(Asamus),Vit(Utus),Lom(Almus),Iantra(Iatru s),Iskar(Oescus)


In the case of Motru,Archar and Ogosta,the terms initially designated settlements,which had been later abandoned by their inhabitants,but they didn't left the areas,passing them to the nearby rivers.


"Florentin BUL (Florentiana): possible fort (B-L, 227; Iv, 481; GMs, 28a)."




There are clear phonetical discrepancies between certain Latin elements of Romanian,Aromanian and Albanian,suggesting pre-Slavic differentiation,even if the Albanians had also received Latin influence of Romanian type before the arrival of the Slavs.


However,all the Vlachs dialects plus Romanian share a considerable higher number of innovations within Latin,than,let's say the entire Italian dialects.






"(d) The kw => p change in front of all vowels except a (a phenomenon of delabialization) in Vulgar Latin is seen in inscriptions and mentioned by grammars:
conda instead of quondam; coquens non cocens, etc. In front of a this phenomenon occurred in Sardinian and in East Latin only in the following words:


This phenomenon is not found in Albanian: Latin quattuor => Alb. katre, quadragesima => kreshme."


"Latin cl corresponds to Northern Rumanian ch: Lat. clavis => N.Rum. cheie.
Istrorumanian and Arumanian have the intermediary consonant group kl:
e.g., Arumanian klem. According to Densusianu,
this seems to have been the case in Balkan Romance when it was separated from Italian.
Italian has chiave, French cle."(Eastern Romance-Orbis Latinus)



"The disappearance of the
Late Roman and Early Byzantine urban centres in Dalmatia and Illyricum
was not related only to the arrival of the Slavs, but rather it was a process
that had already been taking place for at least 50 years (approximately),
since ca. 548 when the Slavs had made their first major incursion south of
the Danube River.21 Therefore, the economic decline of the cities in
Illyricum and Dalmatia was among the main reasons why these cities were
doomed to disappear.22 The last onslaught of invaders, which took place
during the first years of Heraclius’ reign, just dealt the final, fatal blow; it
was the closing act of a long, ongoing process. However, the rural population
did not entirely disappear.
To the contrary, the Romanized population survived the arrival of the Slavs,
and in a far greater number than was previously
thought.23 It was merely a shift of political power which marked
the profound changes in the former Praefectura Illyricum – from the
Romans/Byzantines to the Slavs."




"The cities of the Praefectura Illyricum had been in the state of constant
decline since the mid-fifth century; see: P. Lemerle, Invasions et migrations
dans les Balkans depuis la fin de l’epoque romain jusqu’au VIII siècle, Revue
historique 211 (1954) 281; Zivkovic, Juzni Sloveni, 55-56. However, during
the rule of Justinian I (527 – 565), a number of fortresses and towns in what
is today modern Serbia were either rebuilt or constructed (after 540); Cf.
Procopii De aedif. IV, 4, 116.6-117.10; 122.15-129.4. "


"The population density in Dalmatia or the Praefectura Illyricum
was not equally distributed. Neither had the Roman population lived in all
of its different regions in equal numbers, nor did the Slavs settle in vast
numbers all the areas exposed to their arrival. It can be assumed that the
survival of a long-standing name of some particular Roman settlement is a
proof that Roman population did persist in the area;79 on the other hand if
the name of the settlement became Slavic, the indigenous population must
have fled from the particular area"


"It is also evident that many terms related to the Christian rites in Serbian
(as well as in Croatian) derive from Latin:
oleum – ulje, acetum – ocat, arca – raka, paganus – paganin, altare – oltar,
sanctus – sveti, vinum – vino, crux – krst, calendae – koleda, compater –
kum, panis – panja.81 This terminology is the definite proof that there was
contact between the Slavs/Serbs and the indigenous population with their
Latin Christian rites in the Early Middle Ages;
this also proves the existence
of an earlier ecclesiastical organization (which was established in the
ninth century, if not before)"


"This would mean that the Slavs settled in the
cities or fortified places along the main Roman roads, taking control of the
most fertile and arable land."


"On the linguistic side of the matter, terms related to agriculture, which
were borrowed from the Slavs, make regular appearance in Hungarian,
Romanian, Albanian, and even Greek languages, while the Slavs adopted
the terminology for animal husbandry and products related to it from the
indigenous population."


"The Slavs (Croats, Serbs, and others) settled in the areas around the
main routes and in the most fertile areas of Dalmatia and Praefectura
Illyricum, by using the network of ancient Roman communications"





"The Fortifications of the Late Antiquity and Early Byzantine Period"(Serbia)


"The social crisis that struck the Roman Empire caused striking
pauperization of the population, while the continuous flood of settlers,
various peoples and looters made the difficult situation even worse. These
groups benefited from the proximity of the frontier and the well-branched
road network to reach their loot in the flatland settlements and towns. The
Hunnic wrath caused destrucion of some important towns, such as Singidunum,


Viminatium, Margum and Naissus. It took plenty of time for these towns
to recover. The horrible times were exacerbated by the natural disasters
that befell certain parts of the Empire. The catastrophic earthquake struck
Dardania in 518,548 followed by a plague epidemic that decimated the
population and weakened the defences of the Empire.549
Insecure times called for construction of fortifications. Some of
these fortified sites were regional centres with military crews and a still
functioning ecclesiastical organization. Besides these, the imperial
authorities strived to build smaller fortifications on important strategic
points along the roads, so as to defend and oversee the communication and
supply systems. These fortified sites also served as refuge centres that
provided safe haven to the populations fleeing the endangered lowland
settlements. Parallel to the construction of these fortifications, smaller
ones were built by rural communities, to provide them with safer
positions. Although their positions changed by moving into locations on
higher altitudes, they carried on with their economic activities on earlier
agricultural fields with a shift towards pastoralism.




These measures created a new defensive system, born out of
necessity and reflecting how weak the Empire had become. The aim was
to reduce the influx of refugees that sought shelters in the south, since the
refuges were built in every part of the Empire; but also put to a heavy test
the barbarians’ ability to lay siege and to maintain their supply chain; in
addition, the barbarians were rather unaccomplished besiegers of
fortifications, which by then had no riches left to loot. In any event, the
smaller hordes roaming the roads of the Empire did not even pose a threat
to the villagers any longer, unless they carried out sudden attacks. But the
remains of fire on some fortifications, together with numismatic material
and relevant archaeological horizons of hoards confirm that settlements
were played havoc with, and speak of volatile times.550 This concept,
adapted for the precarious sixth century, reached its culmination during
the reign of Justinian, as was corroborated by the writings of Procopius,
but also by the plentiful material finds from throughout the Empire."
(from Tibor Zivkovic,"The World of the Slavs")






It is possible that Kekaumenos' sources of inspiration were the authors of confusion;these sources could've referred to
events that happened during the rule of Simeon of Bulgaria,when Serbia and some parts of Greece(where the Vlachs live today) were included in Bulgaria.
If this thing didn't happened,he could've misinterpreted them.
And,of course,there's a third option,where everybody(or more than one) is guilty,distorting things,but we can only legitimize it by referring to Simeon I.



Alternatively,Kekaumenos mentions the north-eastern end of Serbia( the parts "along the Danube and Sava"), not Zeta,he or his sources knew something about
a far-northern Vlach homeland,these were the "Dacians", harder to be localized because they lived beyond "Bessi".



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serbian_Kingdom_under_King_Constantine_Bodin-sr.svg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serbian_Kingdom_under_King_Constantine_Bodin-sr.svg)

EDIT:

Apologies for the chaotic text,this is not intentional.

EDIT2:

clarification:"ch" corresponds to ALL the Romanian dialects

EDIT3:


Kekaumenos' text contains some errors,one of them surely big,but it's definitely not a reason to absolutize the conclusions ,
the "Bessi"'s location matches almost perfectly the archaeological reality,the fragmentation of this group("Dacians"-"Bessi")
was also recorded,the Danube remains a logical location,but it was not among Serbs.

Yetos
06-04-16, 20:16
Vespasian disband legio IV at the same area, where before Romans defeated Makedonians,
Κυνος Κεφαλαι, and establish a town named ceasariana there.

what connection has that area with Bulgaria or Romania?

Aromani populations have many origins, not one,
and many dialects, not one,
plz name which tribe of Aromani has his origin in Bulgaria?

Diurpaneus
07-04-16, 17:58
The Greek language had a heavy influence in the Balkans even during the Roman Empire;
therefore, the pillars Latinity must have been the forts and towns located along the Danube,where there was
an intensive and prolonged Roman activity.The second Balkanic core would have been also of strategic importance,
the Danube-Morava corridor,that could have been for the barbarians the easiest way to reach Greece and Asia Minor,
Athens or Constantinople.
According to the distribution of the inscriptions,the southermost area of Latin influence was the Upper Vardar valley(Scupi and Stobi).




These river valleys would have had,the most likely,much higher populations than the entire provinces where Latin was also used,for instance
the mountainous Dardania and Praevalitana(it is hard to believe that in these regions
the Latin-speakers were the majority).


The Albanians probably lived in the highlands of Dardania,but they were very involved in the above-mentioned areas,both
militarily and economically,enlisted as auxiliary troops or searching for a good bargain.


7670

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balkans_6th_century.svg


It was about the medieval Bulgarian state,the Bulgarian Empire.


EDIT:

If the Albanians had orbited along these mechanisms,the autochthonous populations of the Danube,Morava and Vardar valleys
were INTEGRATED in it(thus, forming the Rumanii and Armanii),it is very wrong to call this process "acculturation",because
this isn't about the innocent and spontaneous frenzy caused by a happy polka.

Diurpaneus
08-04-16, 14:42
The great majority of the Romanian samples(both Y-DNA and mt-DNA) were taken from the cities(Constanta,Ploiesti,Piatra-Neamt, and Bucharest,the big sample).The only study that mentions counties is Martinez-Cruz 2012,but it doesn't necessarily mean that they
have used(only) villagers.

Most of mt-DNA comes from Bucharest("Genomul Uman").


This does not correspond to the demographical reality,the majority of the Romanians live in villages,not to mention that many countries had mostly sampled from the
rural environment(using the term "region").


I'm not saying we're Scandinavians(in the cities),but really,this is too much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations


Despite the "myth",even the southeastern and eastern Romania has at least the same quantity of(quite depigmentated) Dinaric strain as the Slavic one,caused by both early ( Proto-Romanians) and
more or less recent events (involving transhumance).


The Nordic("Germanic") element(or most of it?) is probably not autochthonous("Goths") in the outer Carpathian Romanian populations(Wallachia and Moldova),it was spread through transhumance by the southern Transylvanian shepherds(Mocanii) coming from the "Saxon"
region located between Sibiu and Brasov. The "Saxons" were German-speaking communities with diverse background:many or most of them(despite the name ) had come from SW Germany,plus the Flemish and Wallon areas.
Of course,this element remains of secondary importance.

http://www.dgt.uns.ac.rs/pannonica/papers/volume_13_4_3.pdf

Yetos
08-04-16, 15:46
@ mihaitzero,

the headquarters of Roman Legion was today NIS, Serbia,
why? cause it is the center and the crossroad of 2 heavy traffic roads,
Egnatia Road, and the aquatic road Thessaloniki-Belingrad, via rivers from Aegean to Istros

but At borders Thessaly-Makedonia a Legion has disband, and we see Latin Speaking villages nearby,
also around old Makedonian capital we know Romans settle a quard, oh and we also see a core of few Latin speaking villages, there,
Following Egnatia road West, we know it was protected by Roman legions, oh another 2-3 cores of Latin speaking tribes,

Thessaloniki was East Rome, second city with power after Rome before Nova Roma, and east of the city we know Roman did not settle quards, but created villas to produce wine,
oh a small core exists there also,

etc etc

Diurpaneus
11-04-16, 09:36
Yetos,it's inevitable to misunderstand somebody,but we can surely avoid to make it a fashion.
You're familiar with the very curious persons,I know Mihaitzateo,he's part of the same category,so I would be careful, if I was you.
Holding the shields up could be a solution,but it is a matter of timing as well.
This is not about you,the insinuations are only allowed when you try to be(with) a girl.
I can't say the same thing about mocking people.

EDIT:

Mihaitzatheo is either Gyms or they work in tandem,I know their operas very well.


generally addressing

I understand your concerns ,but you had started and you don't seem very eager to
get out from my computer,as I said,regardless of the circumstances, I won't let you justify these actions.
You should all know that my understanding and patience have a limit.

Diurpaneus
11-04-16, 10:23
Septecasae(Seven Houses) surely presents typical Romanian forms,"septe" is the older non-literary form of "sapte".
This placename was also located "along the Danube", in the Diocesis Aquensis area.


"Mareburgou" and "Septecasae" are probably the most obvious Romanian toponims from the list of Procopius.

http://www.loebclassics.com/view/procopius-buildings/1940/pb_LCL343.265.xml


EDIT: Aquensis is located in Dacia Ripensis,roughly the area near Aquis and Ratiaria.
Kekaumenos could've mixed up Diocese of Dacia,"where now the Serbs live",with Dacia Ripensis,"along the Danube","in inhospitable places"(mountains).
The only "inhospitable places" located "along the Danube" are E Serbia,east of Morava river,SW Romania,north of the Iron Gates,and NW Bulgaria.
The "Dacians"(or their southern part) who lived "along the Danube" in "inhospitable places" could have only come from the Danube lowlands, after the Avar and Slavic campaigns/settling.

Yetos
11-04-16, 10:30
The Greek language had a heavy influence in the Balkans even during the Roman Empire;
therefore, the pillars Latinity must have been the forts and towns located along the Danube,where there was
an intensive and prolonged Roman activity.The second Balkanic core would have been also of strategic importance,
the Danube-Morava corridor,that could have been for the barbarians the easiest way to reach Greece and Asia Minor,
Athens or Constantinople.
.

Athens meaned nothing that time,
Thessaloniki was second Rome, and Achaia was capital south Greece

Legion masters interested on taxating the merchants,
so they settle next to every big, heavy traffic merchant road,
at that time there were 2, Egnatia, and Thessaloniki-Istros,

may I inform you that Nis had more legionairies than Rome,

Legio V scythica is the main reason for latinisation of Romania

Yetos
11-04-16, 10:34
They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.

they are pure Arbanoi,

they served general Maniakis, and they came to today Albania from Italy, they revolt against Con/polis, they lost their leader and moved to Korone, from there they moved to Italy back, due to Barbaros, Turkish admiral,
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT AGAINST CON/POLIS, AND THEY NAME THE CENTRAL VILLAGE MANIAKI to Honour their General.

Yetos
11-04-16, 10:35
Yetos,it's inevitable to misunderstand somebody,but we can surely avoid to make it a fashion.
You're familiar with the very curious persons,I know Mihaitzateo,he's part of the same category,so I would be careful, if I was you.
Holding the shields up could be a solution,but it is a matter of timing as well.
This is not about you,the insinuations are only allowed when you try to be(with) a girl.
I can't say the same thing about mocking people.


sorry you are right,
I should have wrote @ Diurpaneus

LABERIA
11-04-16, 12:06
they are pure Arbanoi,

they served general Maniakis, and they came to today Albania from Italy, they revolt against Con/polis, they lost their leader and moved to Korone, from there they moved to Italy back, due to Barbaros, Turkish admiral,
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT AGAINST CON/POLIS, AND THEY NAME THE CENTRAL VILLAGE MANIAKI to Honour their General.

Are you serious?

Yetos
11-04-16, 14:04
@diurpaneus

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/2000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png


you can see the 2 roads
1 Via Egnatia
2 the river road Axios-Morava to Istros,

around these 2 roads many different aromani tribes were developed,
except Ceasarea and Pharsalos were Vespasian disband the IV legion

via militaris, the known road among Nis and Nova Roma, the road of Nova Roma praitors
Nis was the strategical point, there meet the 4 and the 5 legions into 1 head quarter
as you see different parts create different Aromani tribes,
like in Albania,
2 parts
1) from Vitolium Bitola Monasterion to Apollonia create MoschoVlachs,
2) the road to Dyrrachium create the ArvantoVlachs

while in Makedonia we see
1 part from Thessaloniki to Edessa was holded by Greeks, the Rumluk
2) part from Edessa to Florina was helded by another aromanian tribe, the Nymfaion Vlachs the Neveska Vlachs
3) little bit south is Naoussa and Beroia, they hold the passages to West Makedonia and Ioannina

chalkidiki
most of the road from Thessaloniki to Phillipi was hold by Greeks,
But Romans grew villas at mountain Chalkidiki and grew grapes and produce wine, so at east parts of chalkidiki from Arnaia to Asprovalta and rentina we see Aromani of anothert tribe,
there was also latinisation of locals there due to Villas

Thessaly,
the area is out of merchant roads,
but land was given to Legionairies, by Vespasian,
Turks name them kutsuk vlachs,
they have significant gaulish and germanic characteristicks at both language and looking, their wives were prisoners of war
ceasareana pharsallos deskate etc belong to that group, and live almost 2 milleniums there,

as you see, except Thessaly, the rest were caravan protectors,
Legions job was to protect them, and took good money for that,
later when Turks occupied the land they transform to champions (tsompan=champion=protector)
and drive from secret passages the mules, and had sheeps for coverage.

Diurpaneus
15-04-16, 14:30
The Aromuns,Romanians and Albanians share the word for fairy,"zana",from latin Diana.
Additionally,Romanian has also preserved Sanziana, from Sancta Diana.



"Both the Romanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language) words for "fairy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy)" Zânǎ[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)#cite_note-DEX-55) and Sânzianǎ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A2nzian%C7%8E), the Leonese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonese_language) and Portuguese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language) word for "water nymph" xana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xana), and the Spanish word for "shooting target" and "morning call" (diana) seem to come from the name of Diana."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)


https://books.google.ro/books?id=3Jy1CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT448&lpg=PT448&dq=diana+worship+roman+dacia&source=bl&ots=6V86oJAdwo&sig=dsWGP4wPJoc4BL5ZI2LwxNp1pok&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcgIaDwpDMAhWIWCwKHQMADowQ6AEIKzAC#v=on epage&q=diana%20worship%20roman%20dacia&f=false


"The connection is simply by attaching the epithet Augustus to the gods,
and that means the fact that so is defined a sphere of powers. In Dacia most of them were roman deities:
Diana in 15 cases, Minerva, Mercurius and Hercules in 6, Mars in 4, Apollo and Liber Pater in three times."

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj67L-j0pDMAhXJ7BQKHYGcBbsQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bollettinodiarcheologiaonline .beniculturali.it%2Fdocumenti%2Fgenerale%2F2_BULZA N.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFeRFLTVBX-43_1r16mMZwL1v0Kpg


"Votives to Venus are rare, with recent finds limited to the shrine of the Julio-Claudians at Narona (RIV.37),
but Diana was widely worshipped among the hills and forests of the central Balkans, and recent finds include a shrine at Montana (Mi.4),
in association with her twin Apollo, and in the guise of Diana Augusta at Timacum Minus (RV.45)."

from J.J. Wilkes,"Roman Danube Survey"

7683

http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2015/07/20/archaeologists-discover-inscription-dedicated-to-apollo-and-diana-in-ancient-roman-city-novae-near-bulgarias-svishtov/

http://danube.travel/activities/Diana-Djerdap-Region.l-114.45.html


http://bulgariatravel.org/en/object/109/Antichna_krepost_Montana


http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2014/10/22/archaeologists-find-altars-showing-ancient-roman-colony-ratiaria-in-bulgarias-archar-had-temple-of-goddess-diana/


about JJ Wilkes's remark:


The Danube area has many forests too.And let's not forget the etymology of Romanian "padure",Albanian"pyll":from Latin "paludem",a swamp.(really,don't overinterpret)

http://www.icpdr.org/main/publications/ten-years-green-corridor

"It is calculated that over the past couple of centuries, some 80% of the Danube’s original floodplains, including important wetland areas, have been lost mostly due to drainage for agriculture and industry as well as flood prevention and navigation."

https://books.google.ro/books?id=nCGbpTCAeJAC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=lower+danube+floodplain+forests+serbia+bulgaria&source=bl&ots=KPg8KqawET&sig=1HRxNwnJbi4nLTILJTcUZVgX4Zk&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEzdLx75DMAhVLESwKHdQPBA8Q6AEITjAG#v=on epage&q=lower%20danube%20floodplain%20forests%20serbia%2 0bulgaria&f=false

Diurpaneus
23-04-16, 13:30
Imagine the Eastern-Roman cityman,he wasn't so lucky to buy the wanted fresh food,exposing himself to an inevitable situation.It is a sudden event and there are really few solutions for it
in a city,that's why he definitely needs a word to express his misery.


Deep in the mountains,the cheese-eating shepherd had far less concerns about this kind of disturbance:there were very slim chances to happen
and he could've found an intimate space very easily.




The word never reached the Albanians,suggesting that it was a matter of environment.
His structure too is complex:conforio,from con + forio(foria),it seems to be an urban term.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conforio


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cufuri

This also looks urbanish,but if you add the right prefix,you'll instantly feel better.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dezmierda

NOTE:more advanced (Latin) structures,such as compound words,had miraculously escaped from Albanian.

EDIT:

Most of my suppositions had been instantly generated(based on few reading),because,without a doubt, it is the creativity that really matters to me.
I'm sure that many of them are indeed inspiring.(no irony here)

EDIT2:

Dezmierda automatically implies nursing,an activity that couldn't have involved(or thrived in) the traditional pastoral communities.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=1arxCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=child+nursing+byzantine+empire&source=bl&ots=d8OsJnEOCr&sig=kK8W2Ntp1VeftaoNz7pPOuOPYyU&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj62-y2jKfMAhXF8ywKHZo4BcwQ6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=child%20nursing%20byzantine%20empire&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=yxo5kMPLoagC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=child+nursing+byzantine+empire&source=bl&ots=b_A0ek3QXS&sig=rPl4glYectFDp0axkgvX_8C7rhs&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj62-y2jKfMAhXF8ywKHZo4BcwQ6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=child%20nursing%20byzantine%20empire&f=false

EDIT3:

The semantic change/connection "tush cleaning"(technical touch)-->"caress"(affectionate touch) indicates a technical/practical affection.

EDIT4:

Unfortunately these two words were objectively selected.

Diurpaneus
19-05-16, 11:29
hypothesis




The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.


Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
while basilica, initially a non-religious concept,meant a large building that was suitable for gathering lots of believers.


"kishe f, pl. kisha ‘church’. Another variant is qishe. Borrowed from Lat
ecclesia"(Orel)




The preservation of kishe testify that the Albanians and the entire ecclesiastical structure of their area
had developed in much safer conditions.The Romanians and the Aromanians were very exposed to the relentless
invasions ,thus the ecclesiastical ties were heavily disrupted and they only kept the derived terms
from basilica(biserica,basearica),meaning that they could have gathered only in large buildings inside
the fortified cities and fortifications that became completely isolated.

Diurpaneus
31-05-16, 17:07
I'm not saying we're Scandinavians(in the cities)


I was making the average,because the cities too have lots of blondes,
but they are proportionally fewer than those from the villages.
The brunettes,regardless of their skin colour, usually display
the typical Romanian traits(Dinaric and Dinaro-Slav) as
their main features as well.


Blondeness/depigmentation(I don't overrate it) is uniformly diffused
,without being conditioned by the ethnic or social barriers,a
normal DNA analysis would simply reflect the reality.


Gipsy children from Wallachia:

7761

Yetos
31-05-16, 21:29
hypothesis




The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.


Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
while basilica, initially a non-religious concept,meant a large building that was suitable for gathering lots of believers.


"kishe f, pl. kisha ‘church’. Another variant is qishe. Borrowed from Lat
ecclesia"(Orel)




The preservation of kishe testify that the Albanians and the entire ecclesiastical structure of their area
had developed in much safer conditions.The Romanians and the Aromanians were very exposed to the relentless
invasions ,thus the ecclesiastical ties were heavily disrupted and they only kept the derived terms
from basilica(biserica,basearica),meaning that they could have gathered only in large buildings inside
the fortified cities and fortifications that became completely isolated.


both ecclesia and basilica are Greek words

Εκκλησια Βασιλικη,

first means the 'call' the 'gathering' from εκ+καλω = εκ κλησις
second means Royal βασιλευς = king rois Βασιλικη is the royal building AND AN ARCHITECTURE RYTHM

Βασιλικη was the name of the Roman court/judge building or town hall, that architecture style was used by early Cristians,


The Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) word Ekklesia literally "called out" or "called forth"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church

The Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word basilica (derived from Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) βασιλικὴ στοά (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoa_Basileios), Royal Stoa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoa),
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica


the pure architecture style sprunks from Neopythagoreian school with 3 κλιτη naves (τρικλiτος βασιλικη)
but Romans expand it to bigger scale, and made 5 κλιτη/naves 7 etc


early christian building did had something different,
in they ram down the old temples and made them churches,
if build a new they had 2 architectural rythms/styles
Βασιλικη and Ροτοντα
ροτοντα is Roman/latin word rotundus, are the circle buildings,
Rotonda/Rotunda is the style of Pantheon at Rome
or Temple of Zeus of Galerius at Thessaloniki (ροτοντα Θεσσαλονικης), which christians turn it to st George

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Ac.galerius2.jpg

Diurpaneus
05-06-16, 19:11
Without a doubt the main Vlach haplogroups were I2a
(it doesn't matter if it is inherited or not) and E-V13.


I2a scores 30% in the Moravian Vlach lineages and 40%
in the Serbs from Bosnia,a population with significant
Vlach background.The Vlachs that settled in Bosnia
came from Serbia,it is possible that the northen
groups of Vlachs had more I2a than the southern ones.


IF I2a was initially Slavic-only,it had spreaded into Croatian,
Serbian and Romanian-Vlach Dinarics,without consistently
altering the original phenotype or,in the case of Vlachs,
their ethnicity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

Diurpaneus
09-06-16, 16:38
The definitons of ecclesia and basilica are not mine,I took them
from two studies, a Romanian and a French one,they only referred
to the meanings of the two words in the 4th-6th centuries Roman Empires
,because it was important to do so from the perspective of the
development of the derived words in Romance languages.


The words were indeed borrowed from Greek,but they had entered into Latin
differently:yes,basilica was also used by the Romans prior to Christianity,
while ecclesia had spreaded with it from the Eastern/Greek part of the Empire.


Albanian kishe comes from Latin ecclesia,because Latin "cl" becomes [k] in Italian,Romanian and Albanian,
written as "k" in Albanian and "ch" in Romanian and Italian.
Italian had also preserved the word in a very similar form:chiesa.




keshyre f, pl. keshyre ‘mountain path, path in the ravine’. Borrowed from
Lat clausura, clüsüra ‘lock, bar, bolt; castle, fort’(Orel,"Albanian Dictionary")




"Latin cl corresponds to Northern Rumanian* ch: Lat. clavis => N.Rum. cheie.
Istrorumanian and Arumanian have the intermediary consonant group kl: e.g.,
Arumanian klem. According to Densusianu, this seems to have been the case
in Balkan Romance when it was separated from Italian. Italian has chiave, French cle."


*Northern Rumanian means Northern Vlach,which is Rumanian.


My first theory implied that the Romanians/Aromanians too had initailly
a word that came from ecclesia.(But, since I obviously can afford to anticipate things,
there would probably be others.)


Ultimately,the presence of the derived term from ecclesia only in Albanian,
can testify the differention between them and the Romanians/Aromanians.

Kisuan
10-06-16, 00:35
hypothesis




The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.


Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
while basilica, initially a non-religious concept,meant a large building that was suitable for gathering lots of believers.


"kishe f, pl. kisha ‘church’. Another variant is qishe. Borrowed from Lat
ecclesia"(Orel)




The preservation of kishe testify that the Albanians and the entire ecclesiastical structure of their area
had developed in much safer conditions.The Romanians and the Aromanians were very exposed to the relentless
invasions ,thus the ecclesiastical ties were heavily disrupted and they only kept the derived terms
from basilica(biserica,basearica),meaning that they could have gathered only in large buildings inside
the fortified cities and fortifications that became completely isolated.

That's interesting. Have you heard of this group Diurpaneus?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance
When I was looking over the Migration period and especially demographic changes, I found this little insert in Wikipedia. They were hypothesized to be Vulgar Latin speakers (there aren't enough sources to say for certain it seems) living in Pannonia even during the Hunnic and Avar times, surviving by mainly living in fortified settlements. It seems only the western part of Pannonia was extensively colonized by the Romans though. The Great Hungarian Plain didn't seem to be bothered extensively with though (by Romans) and was always important for the steppe nomads.
From the wiki page: 7773
This is thought to be remains of a church used by them. Pretty small if you ask me though.
Could they have connections or contributed to the ethnogenesis of Vlach and Romanians?

Kisuan
10-06-16, 00:41
Without a doubt the main Vlach haplogroups were I2a
(it doesn't matter if it is inherited or not) and E-V13.


I2a scores 30% in the Moravian Vlach lineages and 40%
in the Serbs from Bosnia,a population with significant
Vlach background.The Vlachs that settled in Bosnia
came from Serbia,it is possible that the northen
groups of Vlachs had more I2a than the southern ones.


IF I2a was initially Slavic-only,it had spreaded into Croatian,
Serbian and Romanian-Vlach Dinarics,without consistently
altering the original phenotype or,in the case of Vlachs,
their ethnicity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

Wouldn't J2 and R1b be quite significant to Vlach as well? Eupedia's data for the Aromuns are quite high in J2 and R1b. I suspect at least some element of the Romanian population would have such frequencies as well. Do you perchance have more access to y-dna studies for Vlachs and Romania Diurpaneus? I think it would be a helpful contribution when searching for the genetic composition of pre-Slavic Balkans. It seems some genes (particularly the R1a) in Romania can be linked quite strongly to Slavic people though, so we might focus on more isolated communities throughout the Balkans.

Diurpaneus
26-07-16, 09:34
"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
the text from Kekaumenos, "Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés



For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the
Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.


The Byzantine military chief of Sirmium had the title of "strategos of Serbia",who was in charge
to defend a large section of the Danubian frontier,from this city until Vidin,that's why Kekaumenos
uses the words "along the Danube and Sava,WHERE NOW THE SERBS LIVE".
The Byzantines' most frequent name for the Hungarians was "Dacians",this,corroborated with
another geographical reference, the frontier of"the Danube and Sava",points that Kekaumenos obvioulsly places
the "Dacian" Vlachs, in the territory located north of the Danubian sector between Sirmium and Vidin,
in/near the Hungarian lands.For the Byzantines,the Hungarians and the Dacian Vlachs are "Dacians",
while the Bulgarians(with the core in the NE part of the country) and the Vlachs from the Haemus(Balkan
Mountains) are "Mysians".


But the Vlachs are also the "Bessi"from the Byzantine Empire,so the military mind conceives their
homeland in the contact zone with the Hungarian state,"along the Danube and Sava',to justify
the present "dispersion" and differentiation(Byzantine Bessi vs. Hungarian Dacians).


After Basil II's conquest of Bulgaria,the ecclesiastical structure is
reorganized in this territory,the seat of Vlach bishop was in Vreanoti,
today's Vranje,located in the
valley of Southern Morava,which is part of the "land of Bessi".
That's why Kekaumenos was definitely not the only Byzantine/Greek
who knew about the Vlach communities from this area.














"Komnena, like other Byzantine authoers, generally refers to the Hungarians as Dacians."
(Elemer Illyes,"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area")






from Paul Stephenson,"Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


"Anna adds that they were inspired
by the treachery of the Dacians. The latter were clearly the
Hungarians;




"A glance at any map of the middle Byzantine empire at its ‘apogee’ in
1025 will show that Basil II exercised authority throughout the lands of
the southern Slavs, and the border of his empire ran west along the Sava
and Danube from Sirmium to the Black Sea, and south the length of the
Adriatic coast from Istria through Dyrrachium and into Greece."




"In 1018 the patrikios Constantine Diogenes was designated commander
in Sirmium and the neighbouring territories. The geographical
range of Constantine Diogenes’ powers is remarkable, and he seems to
have enjoyed de iure authority across a wide, if poorly defined region
which stretched from Sirmium at least as far as Vidin, and then south
into the mountains of Raska (modern Serbia) and Bosna (Bosnia). A seal
in the Dumbarton Oaks collection bearing the legend ‘Constantine
Diogenes, [. . .] strategos of Serbia’ can only be attributed to this character."


"Geza I pursued a more friendly policy towards Byzantium. He was
married, probably in 1075, to the daughter of the Byzantine aristocrat
Theodoulus Synadenus,3 and received at that time the famous crown
which bears (on the reverse) his portrait on an enamel plaque beneath
that of the emperor Michael VII Ducas, and beside the image of
Constantine Ducas the porphyrogennetos."




"After the Byzantine defeats at Bari and Mantzikert in 1071 imperial authority
was challenged throughout the empire and from beyond the frontiers.
The Hungarian Chronicle relates how Belgrade came under attack
from the Hungarian King Salomon, where the Bulgarian and Greek
defenders used ‘Greek fire’ to set light to the Magyars’ ships. To deflect a
second assault they appealed to the Pechenegs (Bisseni), upon whom the
Magyars inflicted great slaughter. The besieged city fell after three months,
and many of the inhabitants were put to the sword before Salomon, and
the dukes Geza and Ladislas marched on to Nis, seizing much plunder en
route. The situation was resolved by negotiation soon thereafter, but it seems
probable that Salomon was allowed to keep the former Byzantine outpost
of Sirmium (modern Sremska Mitrovica), which sat on the northern bank
of the Sava, opposite the residence of the bishop of Sirmium (at
Macvanska Mitrovica)"


"In the same
way, the peoples who occupied the various lands might be called
‘Bulgarians’ (Boulgaroi), although other names were used more frequently,
and with little concern for contemporary accuracy. Thus the
Bulgarians are often called Mysoi, Mysians (but not Moesians) because
they occupied the lands of the former Roman province of Moesia."


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Bela III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"










"The region between the Sava and the Danube was then ceded by
Michael VII to Geza, in 1075, so that he would secure an ally and save at least the region
east of Belgrade, which remained under Byzantine rule nearly until the collapse of the
empire in 1204."


"Confrontations between Hungary,
the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria
for the Belgrade–Vidin Border Region
in the 9th-14th Centuries",Alexandru Madgearu














"Donja Ljubata is situated ca. 15 km west of Bosilegrad,
at the natural communication connecting this region
with the Vranje–Bujanovac Basin"


"Bowl from Davidovac, situated between Vranje and
Bujanovac, decorated with cogwheel tool and circular stamps, kept
in the National Museum in Vranje."




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqpcbXzZDOAhVjIJoKHT1PB2AQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doiserbia.nb.rs%2Fft.aspx%3Fi d%3D0350-02410656201B&usg=AFQjCNF6LisRRkf0FvA3bbw0h1SkTziVnA&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGs


"Nadalje ,u njoj se prvi pu t spominju vlaški vjernici koji su raštrkani na čitavom područj u tearhiepiskopije , tak o reći na čitavom Balkanu . Za njih osniva i zasebn u episkopiju,poznat u ka o vlaška episkopija, koju Mathia s Gy6ni lokalizira na područj uBabune , sjeverno od Prilepa u blizini Velesa, gdje se nalaz e dva sela s imeno mGornj i i Donji Vranovci, a ta se episkopija naziva Vreanotes™ što se svakako prijemož e identificirati s Vranjem"

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwja1MHi0JDOAhVLCSwKHSapA4gQFgghMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhrcak.srce.hr%2Ffile%2F157940&usg=AFQjCNHqVWuRWYwutMuq5OhguqRlg5Nwsw&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGg

" According to a German historian, there apparently was a bishopric of "the Vlachs" with its residence at "Vreanoti" (Vranje) on the upper reaches of the Morava river"

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm

Diurpaneus
28-07-16, 13:28
Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a
populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"




The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin.
In Romania it strongly resembles Dacia Traiana, while south of the Danube
it reminds of the Latin-speaking areas from the Balkans, during the Roman/Eastern Roman Empire.




*I'm sure that,if this set of genes is present in/near Novi Sad,there must be a further,
western,extension,which the map doesn't show it,into the traditional Serbian lands and beyond.


7888

7889

7890

7891


EDIT:


The Romanians have plenty more Balkanic genes,
but the study offers a few locations for comparison from south of
the Danube,Serbia has only two(Novi Sad and Kosovo),the
rest of the countries,only one each.

Diurpaneus
04-08-16, 14:02
7899


The eastern red spot stretches along the historical regions known as
Vlasca,Vlasia and Codrii Vlasiei(The Vlach Forest),these are Slavic
toponyms that testify the presence of the Romanians.


This analysis didn't use samples from Bucharest(the city had a very recent
population growth,during Communism,because of the intense industralization,
with lot of people coming from the north-eastern part of the country),
but from the surrounding rural area.


The Bulgarian samples come from Plovdiv,Komatevo area(Bulgaria 24.74941 / 42.14353),
which was also involved in the Bulgaro-Vlach movements started by Peter and Asen,
not to mention that Ivanko and Kaloyan(of Vlach origin,see "Cumans and Vlachs
in The Second Bulgarian Empire",pg.6*) were some of its rulers.
This military and demographic diffusion had ended with consolidation of the Second Bulgarian
Empire by Kaloyan.






*If Alexandar Nikolov tries to point to a Byzantinian origin of those Vlachs,he is wrong.
The rebellion had started in Haemus,a mountaineus region,because large numbers of Vlachs
and Bulgarians were affected by this sudden collection of taxes.
And those 40.000 Vlach and Cuman archers could had been hardly gathered from the
former Byzantine sentinels.

http://www.academia.edu/4388454/Kumans_and_Vlachs


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates (; trans.: –) relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Béla III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"



"Once he had reached
Nisˇ, as we have seen, Frederick met with Stefan Nemanja and his brothers,
and had received envoys from Peter and Asen. Moreover, once the
German emperor had arrived at Adrianople, he once again approached
‘Kalopetrus’ who offered 40,000 Vlach and Cuman archers for an
assault on Constantinople, and once the city was taken, requested that
the emperor present him ‘with the imperial crown of the realm of
Greece (coronam imperialem regni Grecie)’.(Byzantium Balkan Frontier)








"Markeri STR autozomali
Un număr de 5777 probe biologice au fost împărţite în 4 macroregiuni istorice astfel:
Valahia - probe biologice recoltate de la un număr de 1910 persoane provenite din 14
din cele 15 județe ale regiunii: Argeş (259), Brăila (148), Buzău (10), Călăraşi (11),
Dâmboviţa (215), Dolj (288), Giurgiu (114), Gorj (154), Ialomiţa (117), Ilfov (113),
Mehedinţi (122), Olt (20), Prahova (331) şi Teleorman (8);"


"Nu exista diferente între Moldova si populatia din Bucuresti."





From "Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


Peter and Asen came to Kypsella in spring  in search of concessions.
They hoped to be granted privileges by a new emperor, and their
hope was well founded, since Byzantine emperors regularly granted
local rulers in the northern Balkans such concessions. However, they
were insulted and dismissed. Isaac Angelus had decided to make an
example of the upstart Vlachs. He must have imagined he could control
the pastoralists, and determined that crushing their uprising would gain
him much needed military credibility. However, and in spite of his
attempt to prove otherwise by announcing false victories to the faithful
in Constantinople, Isaac had miscalculated, and it proved to be costly.
Nevertheless, the escalation of the Vlach rebellion was not inevitable,
nor was it based on an ethnic, still less a ‘national’, grievance against
Byzantine rule. Both Vlachs and Bulgarians played a major role in the
escalation of the rebellion, but others fought on the Byzantine side.


Meanwhile, however, the Vlachs and Bulgars made unprecedented
advances. Whereas previously their assaults had been concentrated
on villages and fields, now they advanced against ‘lofty-towered
cities. They sacked Anchialus, took Varna by force, and advanced on
Triaditza, the ancient Sardica, where they razed the greater part of the
city. They also emptied Stoumbion [south-west of Sardica on the upper
Strymon] of its inhabitants, and carried away large numbers of men
and animals from Nisˇ.’


"The Byzantine campaigns of autumn  were, by all extant
accounts, successful. Forces despatched to the north-east recovered
Varna and Anchialus, and the latter was reinforced with towers and a
garrison.72 Isaac himself led a campaign against the Vlachs and Cumans
from Philippopolis, and from there continued on to confront Stefan
Nemanja"


"More threatening for the empire was the fact that, after Isaac’s demise,
the nature of Vlach-Bulgar raids changed. Whereas before  they
were content to plunder lands south of the Haemus and around the
Black Sea ports, which remained in Byzantine hands, from  the
Vlach-Bulgars began to contemplate permanent possession of both
kastra and cities."


"Ivanko, who had fled
to Constantinople, was betrothed to Alexius III’s granddaughter, an
exceptional prize for the pretender to a realm the autonomy of which
was not recognized. Subsequently, he played a crucial role in defending
the environs of Philippopolis, serving as ‘a precious bulwark against his
own countrymen’. Even so, ‘the devastation of the lands towards the
Haemus and the despoiling of the inscribed monuments and pillars of
Macedonia and Thrace give a more accurate picture of the damage
wrought than any detailed historical account"




"The employment of Ivanko and Dobromir-Chrysus against their
fellow Vlachs and Bulgars was not exceptional. As we have seen, it was
a standard Byzantine strategy for dealing with recalcitrant peoples to
employ divide and rule tactics; and nobody knew better how to deal with
highly mobile Vlach raiding parties than Vlachs."


https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=ivanko+vlach+prisoners&source=bl&ots=9hSUQuy3qm&sig=D5Xmz5nDXrVu0j7qZbiFzZZX-0Y&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMjtT82KfOAhVB2BQKHdnGDboQ6AEIIjAB#v=on epage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20prisoners&f=false


https://izi.travel/en/c1e4-vlasiei-woods-codrii-vlasiei/en

http://www.danubiushunters.com/web/


Plovdivian faces:

7900

7901

Diurpaneus
05-08-16, 17:37
"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)




Vlaşca County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vla%C5%9Fca_County), a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

LABERIA
05-08-16, 17:42
"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)




Vlaşca County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vla%C5%9Fca_County), a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs






At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.

Milan
05-08-16, 18:40
"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)




Vlaşca County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vla%C5%9Fca_County), a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic Vlaška)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs





Not every toponym having Vlaška is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vlašici not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vlaška mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.

Fustan
05-08-16, 20:45
At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.

Vlachs have borrowed many words from us and yes, katun is one of these words.

Diurpaneus
08-08-16, 09:15
Milan:

Not every toponym having Vlaška is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vlašici not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vlaška mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.




Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe
in the present.

I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiB2PXLoLHOAhXkJcAKHY05DUAQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpressto.amu.edu.pl%2Findex.php%2F bp%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3901%2F4046&usg=AFQjCNGbMDRQ85sYuwCvomedkvAzR_Libw&bvm=bv.129391328,d.bGs


"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)

Diurpaneus
08-08-16, 09:25
@Milan


Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe.








I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"






"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)

Diurpaneus
08-08-16, 09:38
Milan:"you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name."


If things would have been simple they wouldn't
have used a weird filter,still,the posted maps
contain without a doubt'autochthonous" genes,
even in regard to the Slavic imput.
It wasn't a horror analysis,but they surely
sampled consistently from the darkest side.




Populatiile Analizate
Esantion populational general


"Un numar de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sange, fire de par, etc.)
au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate si
alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecti,
victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6,
in acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea si functionarea Sistemului
National de Date Genetice Judiciare.
In vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate in studiul populational de fata,
s-a tinut cont în primul rand de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede
la Art. 11 (5): "Administratia Nationala a Penitenciarelor stabileste penitenciarul
in care persoana condamnata va executa pedeapsa privativa de libertate.
La stabilirea penitenciarului se va avea în vedere ca acesta sa fie situat
cat mai aproape de localitatea de domiciliu a persoanei condamnate."

(Analiza genetica a populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul României folosind markeri STR)










The first one is my favorite:


"On the other hand, the Serbs made a clear distinction between their own ethnic
community and the Vlachs. This is exemplified in proverbs such as "Oh, Turk, the conspirer
of trouble! And you, Vlach, a blood brother imposed by others!" Another proverb
says: "Eat with a Vlach from the same bowl until you eat half of it, and then you hit him
on the head with it!"(ELEMENTS OF ETHNIC IDENTIFICATION OF THE SERBS,Danijela Gavrilovic).




Milan, next time when this tone is used, you will be treated like Visegradina.
If I post alot,it doesn't mean that I try to suggest that the South-Slavs are
genetically overwhelmingly Vlachs.








EDIT:


I sometimes post only copy-pasted text, simply because I consider that there is
nothing to add,don't be fooled by sneaky devils like Angela or Mihaitza/Gyms.
The latter's extreme posts had scared even the far-right members from "The Apricity",
from where is constantly banned.


EDIT2:


The previous post's copy-paste from
"MEDIEVAL NAME AND ETHNICITY: SERBS AND VLACHS",Stefan Staretu

Milan
08-08-16, 10:54
I gave you one example Vlašici (Hyades) stars otherwise are named because of god Veles and not because of the Vlasi- Vlachs.But the "ethnonym" Vlach appear only in the 11th century denoting sheepherders and Romance speakers? Probably also depends where.
As matter of fact prior to be used in sense we today use,for example in Croatia,Bosnia all Eastern Orthodox were called Vlachs hence Serbs too.
Some of the toponyms perhaps have origin from their name,but i expressed my doubt since sometimes the same name have root to god Veles.

Diurpaneus
08-08-16, 20:16
It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be
expanded or exploited,shouldn't leave the boundaries of astrology.


But the main argument for the use of the terms Vlasi/Vlaska to designate
exclusively the Vlachs/Vlach Country is their ethnic value.




These Vlachs are named Kjelatori,premikurs,protogers,all of them of
Latin origin,and lived in villages like Surdul,"The Deaf",in Romanian.


"The Vlach chieftains and their
officials, known as knezes, premikurs (premicur, primicur, from Latin primicerius),
protogers (protuder)" ("Being An Ottoman Vlach")




"The word hoditai, which does not mean
“nomads”, concerns the same people who were recorded in the Serbian
sources with the name kjelatori, involved in the military transportation.
The name kjelatori renders the Romanian word of Latin origin călători
(“travelers”)."("Vlach Military Units in the Byzantin")




"The archaeological excavations in Leskovac gave
the key to identification of the Brnjica finds in other
museums in the Morava basin; through classification
of material and intensive identification, trial and protective
excavations, fifty-four Brnjica cultural group
sites have been designated, of which ten are in the Vranje
region: Ljanik, Svinji{te, Biljaa, Kon~ulj, Luane,
Surdul, Priboj, Klinovac, Piljakovac and @ujince;
twenty-five in the Leskovac region"(REGIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
OF THE BRNJICA CULTURAL GROUP)

Milan
08-08-16, 21:10
It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be

What i was saying is not to mix all the toponyms,some may reffer,some may not reffer to Vlachs,and i gave example.It is name similarities,about origin of the name there is generaly accepted theory already,so i can not go into that even if some propose otherwise.

Diurpaneus
09-08-16, 10:51
If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...


The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
using Veles too?

http://www.greatdreams.com/constellations/ursas-bootes.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auriga_(constellation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)



In any case,if this proves to be true, it will be an isolated tie:


Old pastoral term(Veles)<--constellation(astrology)-->New Pastoral term(Vlasic)


Are there any further connections in this direction(Veles-Vlas),
apart from the names' closeness and pastoralism(which would had led inevitably
to overlapping in the case of a constellation)?


The extreme differentiation between the nomad Vlachs and the sedentary South-
Slavs throughout the Middle Ages had led to the need of having very clear ethnic markers,
that's why the Serbs too,like the Eastern Slavs, who use the word Volokh/Voloh(unrelated to
Veles),had adopted the term in a classical manner,without having other intermediary than the
Germans.


"In medieval Balkan states, the Vlachs were engaged in certain military
services, transport of goods, and colonisation of empty lands; they held a
special position and specific legal status, different from other populace.7 The
Balkan states kept the Vlachs isolated from the sedentary population to prevent
possible nomadisation of peasants. The feudal system however, started
gradually absorbing autonomies of Vlach herdsmen and their clan structure, in
favour of a sedentary way of life."("Being An Ottoman Vlach")


The Serbian kings' laws against intermarriages are well-known.


Before making hypotheses about Veles it is important to know how
deeply-rooted he still was in the South-Slavs consciousness,after the intense
Christianization,and some preserved toponyms can't be involved in this exercise.

Diurpaneus
09-08-16, 11:46
Interesting compactness and overlapping of this genetical signature
with the earliest recorded Romanian political structures:

7908


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litovoi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C4%83rbat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneslau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_(knez)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farca%C8%99


"Anonymus wrote that Cumans, Bulgarians, and Vlachs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs) (or Romanians), supported Glad against the invading Magyars, but the latter annihilated their united army in a battle near the Timiș River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timi%C8%99_River)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glad_(duke)

Anonymus uses a term from his present,the Cumans are in fact the Pechenegs,Bugarians' allies against the Magyars.


"The blows suffered at the hands of the Pechenegs and Bulgarians in 895–896 induced great caution in the Hungarians. Constantine Porphyrogenetos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_VII) repeatedly noted that the Hungarians feared the Pechenegs, who were used by the Bulgarians to keep the Hungarians in check"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian%E2%80%93Hungarian_wars

Diurpaneus
10-08-16, 10:23
The plural of baiat(boy) is baieti,which indicates the alternative singular baiet,
also in use.


"Baiet" is a Northern Latin variant,it ultimately comes from a form of the verb
"valeo","valet",exactly like the french word, and it is similar to Mantovan bagaet.
The semantic link is assured by the Italian words.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C4%83iat

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valet

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valeo#Latin



băiat
boy; servant, page
Russu
variant băiet;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin

"We found Emiliano-Romagnolo
Mantovan bagaet ”ragazzo, boy”"

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords



Latin v--> Romanian b


Latin veteranus,Romanian batran
Latin alveus,Romanian albie
Latin corvus,Romanian corb




The loss of intervocalic "l"


Latin folia,Romanian foaie
Latin filius,Romanian fiu
Latin familia,Romanian femeie




"The first line, the northern line, La Spezia – Rimini, is supposed to separate Gallo-Romance
dialects from Toscan, Southern Italian dialects, AND Romanian.
In fact, Romanian shares most phonetic shifts with the North.
The comparison of Lombard with Romanian may fine-tune the chronology
of phonetic shifts in Gallo-Romance."


"We suppose a linguistic continuum between Raetia, North Italy, Pannonia and Dacia,
interrupted in the 400-s, after which proto-Rumanian would evolve separately."




http://www.academia.edu/10464761/Romanian_and_the_Italian_dialects_II


Baiat resembles Italian dialectal forms like Calabrian bajazza(servant,easy woman),
vajazzu(servant,peasant),note the v/b alternation from the Italian dialects.


EDIT

If indeed related,the Albanian "bije" (daughter) could be the result of a regressive derivation from baiat/baiet or a similar form.
Because baiat can afford to lose the "-t" suffix,coming from Latin valeo.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?D1=9&H1=109&T1=valeo

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords

Diurpaneus
10-08-16, 12:55
The long-lasting North Italian influences had come from ,
for example, the economic centers like Aquileia,following the roads along
the Sava and Drava to the Danube,reaching Pannonia,Dacia and the northern/fluvial (Upper)Moesia.


a map of roads from "Roman Danube Survey"




7910




"Spesso le rappresentazioni di caccia si ritrovano
sia nell’arte romana pubblica, sia in quella
privata dal II al IV secolo,1 si potrebbe anche
affermare che la caccia fosse uno dei temi preferiti e la
decorazione principale delle stele funerarie, specialmente
nella Pannonia e nel Noricum.2 L’esistenza delle
stele con scene di caccia anche nella provincia della
Moesia Superior è una motivazione importante e significativa
per prestare una particolare attenzione a questi
monumenti"


"Nota anche che
questo fregio decorativo fu caratteristico della zona
norico – pannonica in particolare nel I e II secolo. Il
termine più preciso di zwieschenstrief animalistica è
stato formulato molto più tardi da Bianchi indagando
le stele funerarie della provincia della Dacia."


"stato raffigurato anche un albero.
Accanto alle stele citate che rappresentano il tema di
questo elaborato, si deve evidenziare che il tema della
caccia fu presente in altri due monumenti funerari nella
Moesia Superior. Nel lapidario del Museo di Krajina a
Negotin si trova un medaglione a forma circolare con
la raffigurazione di un cacciatore a cavallo; questo è la
parte centrale della stele funeraria che appartiene a quel
tipo di monumenti molto popolare nella Dacia e nel
Noricum."


"L’apparizione di questo
fregio nelle stele della Moesia Superior può essere capita
solo come conseguenza delle influenze che sono
pervenute da entrambe le Pannonie e dal Noricum dove
questo motivo era popolare; ed è altrettanto possibile
che questi si diffusero da queste province, come anche
dalla Moesia Superior, fino alla Dacia."


"Egli ha messo in evidenza che le botteghe a Singidunum
e a Viminacium lavoravano sotto le influenze dell’Italia
del nord, passate tramite la Pannonia del sud."


"L’apparizione del motivo della caccia in un gruppo
numeroso di stele funerarie della Moesia Superior è
ancora una conferma che in questa parte della provincia
ci sono dei vincoli culturali con entrambe le Pannonie
e con il Noricum, e questo vuol dire che i legami erano
molto stretti con Italia del nord".


"Il fregio con gli animali selvatici, cioè la scena di
caccia, appare in sette stele funerarie del tipo architettonico
del II e dell’inizio del III secolo della Moesia
Superior, in cinque di Viminacium, poi in una che
attualmente è murata nella fortezza di Smederevo ed
infine in una trovata a Stojnik."


"Anche Vasi}, analizzando
le stele funerarie della Dalmatia, ha concluso che
il motivo della caccia nell’area di questa provincia giunse
dall’Italia del Nord, da Aquileia e poi attraverso la
Pannonia da cui le influenze erano giunte tramite la valle
del fiume Drina"


"Esaminando la tipologia della stele di Trieste, Verzar–Bass
evidenzia la possibilità della diffusione dell’influenza di Aquileia e
dell’ambiente cisalpino nelle vicine province del Noricum e della
Pannonia Superior, e questo nel campo delle stele dalle dimensioni monumentali,
della simile mancanza di profondità del rilievo come nella
stele Barbii o dell’unione architettonica della stele tra quelle incorniciate
con le lesene decorate come, per esempio, quelle della stele Hostilii
evidenziando di nuovo il fatto che esempi significativi di questo tipo
non sono confermati nella sola Aquileia"
(LA SCENA DI CACCIA:
MOTIVO DI DECORAZIONE DELLE STELE FUNERARIE
DELLA MOESIA SUPERIOR,Sanja Pilipovic)








"On the west wall of the above mentioned tomb
from Pécs, painted in the spirit of painting from the
Italian soil, the story of Jonah is represented concisely
and in a simplified manner,71 unlike the composition
elaborated in detail on two wallls of the tomb from Mike
Anti}a Street in Sremska Mitrovica. We tend, because
of this, to see the painting of this tomb as the result of
close relations which, during the second half of the 4th
century, the artistic workshops from Sirmium developed
with the centres from North Italy, in the first place with
those from Aquileia."
(WALL PAINTING OF LATE ANTIQUE TOMBS
IN SIRMIUM AND ITS VICINITY,Ivana Popovic)




"The supply of late North Italian sigillata to the military bases
along the lower Danube can be traced though the products of individual
workshops in such centres as Singidunum (Ms.4), Viminacium (Ms.14),
and Transdierna (Ms.42)." (Roman Danube Survey)

Milan
10-08-16, 17:56
If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...


The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
using Veles too?



Old pastoral term(Veles)<--constellation(astrology)-->New Pastoral term(Vlasic)


Are there any further connections in this direction(Veles-Vlas),
apart from the names' closeness and pastoralism(which would had led inevitably
to overlapping in the case of a constellation)?

Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?

Post-Christian Veles


As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Blaise), popularly known among various Slavic nations as St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
Vlasi,Vlahi etc is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called in the Slavic languages,so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected only to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.

Diurpaneus
10-08-16, 22:16
Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?

Post-Christian Veles


As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Blaise), popularly known among various Slavic nations as St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
Vlasi,Vlahi etc is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called in the Slavic languages,so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected only to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.


You have not posted about Saint Blaise until now,and this particular syncretism doesn't
support any of your theories,about a further/more complex connection between Veles and Vlach/Vlas,
because, just like in the case of Vlasici(Hyades),if true, it is an anticipable one,
or the toponyms(how many place names a saint like Blaise could have had?).


Milan,just an innocent question:what is the name of Saint Blaise's girlfriend?


EDIT


Romanian Grammar


One of the most important powers of "and" is a higher versatility
regarding the adversative manner.
In the above phrase it replaces the adversative "iar",one of
the equivalents of the adversative "si"("and",in english),
who doesn't have the power of"but"("dar").


The Romanians tend to use comma between phrases that contain
the double "either"-"or" or "neither"-"nor",because of a different
construction who transforms the sentence into an enumeration
by using the same conjunction ,"si"-"si"("and"-"and") in the first case,
"nici"-"nici" in the second.

Diurpaneus
13-08-16, 10:32
Who Am I?
I am this tone named Alexandru.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6y77blgi0g&amp;index=8&amp;list=RDUuKQi5-JD88



The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid
waste and ravaged all before him. Samuel was not able to resist openly, nor to
face the emperor in open warfare, so, weakened from all sides, he came down
from his lofty lair to fortify the entrance to Bulgaria with ditches and fences.
Knowing that the emperor always made his incursions through the [plain]
known as Campu Lungu and [the pass known as] Kleidion (‘the key’), he undertook
to fortify the difficult terrain to deny the emperor access. A wall was built
across the whole width [of the pass] and worthy defenders were committed to
it to stand against the emperor.When he arrived and made an attempt to enter
[Bulgaria], the guards defended the wall manfully and bombarded and
wounded the attackers from above. When the emperor had thus despaired of
gaining passage, Nicephorus Xiphias, the strategos of Philippopolis,met with the
emperor and urged him to stay put and continue to assault the wall, while, as
he explained, he turned back with his men and, heading round to the south of
Kleidion through rough and trackless country, crossed the very high mountain
known as Belasica. On  July, in the twelfth indiction [, Xiphias and his
men] descended suddenly on the Bulgarians, from behind and screaming battle
cries. Panic stricken by the sudden assault [the Bulgarians] turned to flee, while
the emperor broke through the abandoned wall. Many [Bulgarians] fell and
many more were captured; Samuel barely escaped from danger with the aid of
his son, who fought nobly against his attackers, placed him on a horse, and
made for the fortress known as Prilep"
(Byzantium's Balkan Frontier)

"Basil II was defeated by Samuel at a pass called Kimba Longus or Kleidion which is almost surely the equivalent of the Rumanian Campulung (Campus longus), a frequently-used place name."

http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/wolff_appA.html

Traditional costumes from Arges(unique in Romania):


7930

7931

7932

Macedonian costumes:

7933


Argea is an Old Macedonian(Alexander's speech) term ,integrated
into the Latin of Romanian type,while the Albanian ragal/argal comes
from the Greek argaleios.


intervocalic"-ll-" dissapears


Latin stella Romanian stea
Latin hirundinella Romanian randunea




"Romanian argea ‘subterranean room’ has been considered Thraco-Dacian since Hasdeu
(Col. lui Traian, 232, 1873) from a Dacian *argilla and later in Etymologicum…
is associated with Greek άργιλλα ‘subterranean house’, Old Macedonian árgella ‘id’
and Cimmerian argill ‘id’. This hypothesis was adopted also by Gr. Brâncuş
(VALR, 30) and I .I. Russu (Elemente, 133). All these forms are
derived from PIE *areg-to enclose"(INTRODUCTION TO THE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY
OF THE ROMANIAN LANGUAGE)




"ragal (Albanian) Origin & history Methatesized form of earlier *argal,
close to Romanian argea ("shed") and Ancient Macedonian ἄργελλα 'Macedonian baths

http://www.wordsense.eu/argea/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/argea


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arge%C8%99_County

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A2mpulung

EDIT:

I have found my horse.

EDIT:

This is an original post,like most of mine;
it is also a correct one,because that's what
the very smart people usually do.
I have emphasized the nature of the connection between the
Romanian and Macedonian terms,if I remember the copy-paste
or Google Search doesn't do that.
This happen to be an easy one,but in order to grow in complexity,
you have to have access to certain information.
In general,you can reach to the same conclusion with others,without being
guilty of plagiarism.

EDIT:

"Argella"/"argea" had widened its semantics, gaining the sense of "loom", possibly through
contact with the Greek or Albanian terms.

EDIT:

Despite the form of the PIE root(-areg;to enclose) from where the word argella is
coming,the river Arges can have "Macedonian" phonetics,if it
originally meant"The Enclosed River"="The River with High Banks".
The argument that favors the ancient origin of his name is Burebista's
capital,Argedava.
But the similarities might be visible also in meanings,with an
independent Macedonian-Getic-Thracian semantic development,
because Arges is a river,the Macedonian argella also denotes the "bath"and
Albanian "argesh", the "raft".


argesh m ‘crude raft supported by skin bladders, crude bridge of crossbars,
harrow


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argedava


EDIT


We can make further independent semantical connections, the Macedonian, Greek and Romanian meaning of argilla/argella/argea,
"subterranean(house)", with the river Arges, that would have been "The Deep River","The River with a Deep Bed" or just the
concept of a river as simply the bed(river-bed-deepness).
A similar pattern exists in Romania,where alot of villages are called "Adancata"("The Deep Village",
adanc came from Latin aduncus),the one from Ialomita situated for sure at a confluence,certifying thus,the place name Argedava.
The Albanian term argesh can also be involved,because any raft sinks to a certain degree, the Thracian argilos(mouse;underground
animal) or the Macedonian bath, argella.

http://thevore.com/thracian/

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comuna_Ad%C3%A2ncata,_Ialomi%C8%9Ba


https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comuna_Ad%C3%A2ncata,_Suceava

The semantics of the river Arges resumes to the basis of the above-related terms:deepness and water.

Diurpaneus
15-08-16, 12:54
The Romanian/Aromanian word for heart is inima,which came from Latin anima(soul),appart from these
languages,this semantic shift only appears in a text from Toledo(the form is animus).
Suflet(soul) is a substantive formed from the verb "a sufla"(to breathe).


These two semantic shifts correspond to the Christian concepts like"the heart is the place of the soul"or
"the heart and soul are One",while the soul is associated to the act of breathing.


Still,all the early words that refer to Paganism are Latin,suggesting that the process of
Romanization was completed before the adoption of Christianity.
One of these words,descanta/descantare(magic formula against evil spells or diseases),can
only be found(in this form and having this meaning) in the North Italian dialects(Friuli and Venezia).




"Discanta frioul. pour lequel Pirona {Vocab. friiil., 1S71, 131)
donne le sens : torre Vincantesimo vh: rende nno inetto a qiialche
cosa; roum. descîntare avec la même signification (comp. vén.
descantar)."(Ovide Densusianu,"Histoire de la Langue Roumaine")


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/encantar

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enchanter

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incantare

magie s.f. „magija“ (dr.
magie) < lat. magia < ;318 fermec, pl. fermece s.n. „bajanje, vracanje“ (dr. fermec) < lat.
*pharmacum ); fermeca vb. tranz. „bajati, vracati“ (dr. fermeca) < lat. *pharmacare (<
*pharmacum);319 descanta vb. intranz., tranz. „vracati, (od)bajati“ (dr. descînta, ar. discîntare) < lat.
*discantare (< cantare); zîna s.f. „vila“ (dr. zîna, st. tosk., st. prov. jana, log. yana „vracara, carobnica“) < lat.
Diana(OD LATINSKOG DO RUMUNSKOG)




"Heart transplants have been opposed on the medieval grounds that the heart is the repository of the soul".

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gg0_medicine.htm


"Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction
between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy
originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at
an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St.Augustine"

https://www.britannica.com/topic/soul-religion-and-philosophy

https://books.google.ro/books?id=nvVIqNXklN8C&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=The+history+of+the+decline+and+fall+of+the+Roma n+empire+heart+soul&source=bl&ots=gJoW0UgmUQ&sig=XblF_5MAKm3QeEQMvKAfBlZsGfk&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjynbXspMPOAhUDIcAKHQKqBNIQ6AEIUjAJ#v=on epage&q=The%20history%20of%20the%20decline%20and%20fall% 20of%20the%20Roman%20empire%20heart%20soul&f=false

Diurpaneus
15-08-16, 19:09
This is one of the 9 Y STR markers diagrams(Florin Stanciu),Hungary clusters with Romania,
Macedonia and Serbia,it has to be related to Balkanic imputs(I2a+E-V13).

7938

Garrick
24-08-16, 00:33
At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.

Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.

And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.

Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.

There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.

Even Ainu people have this term

Finnish koti (house), kotona (at home)

Old Indo European kadh to hide, to protect.

LABERIA
25-08-16, 11:05
Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.

And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.

Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.

There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.

Even Ainu people have this term

Finnish koti (house), kotona (at home)

Old Indo European kadh to hide, to protect.

Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?I will be back to this word Katun or Katund, because explain many things about the medieval and modern history of West Balcan.

continue

Nik
25-08-16, 11:58
Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.

And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.

Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.

There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.

Even Ainu people have this term

Finnish koti (house), kotona (at home)

Old Indo European kadh to hide, to protect.
Eh? :petrified: Northern Thracian substratum? Although it could have been a Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian word as well, katun is related to canton, of Latin origin.

LABERIA
25-08-16, 12:13
Eh? :petrified: Northern Thracian substratum? Although it could have been a Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian word as well, katun is related to canton, of Latin origin.

Source pls?

Nik
25-08-16, 12:27
Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?I will be back to this word Katun or Katund, because explain many things about the medieval and modern history of West Balcan.

continue
They call them Vlasi because the Orthodox people they came into contact with in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Lika were mostly Romance speaking highland dwellers. There are many contemporary Ragusan and Venetian sources making a clear distinction between Serbs and Vlachs, especially in Herzegovina and Montenegro. Many of today's Serbs in these regions were ethnically recorded as Vlachs before and although belonging to the Serbian Orthodox Church, they still used Vlach personal names. Part of their lastnames were Albanian/Arbanasi too, estimated around 20%. Bear in mind that until the Middle Ages people in Central Serbia called highlanders Ghegs.

Nik
25-08-16, 12:35
Source pls?
I didnt make a claim, I simply shared what I know. I'm saying this because I'm not a big fan of linguists as they oversimplify things.

For them, Albanian is such an inconsiderable language that everything similar between it and Latin, Greek, Slavic, etc. is a loan word. We have been taught that our word for friend "mik" comes from Latin "amicus", while interestingly one of the Illyrian Deities of Friendship was called Mikon. Similarly, they consider the fact that Latin got so many borrowings from Etruscan and Greek, but the various migrations/invasions from the Balkans towards the Italian Peninsula means nothing to them.

What bothers me in the case of Slavic is that many similar words between Albanian and Serbo-Croatian do not even exist in other Slavic languages, so why the hell would u assume that its a Slavic borrowing and not the other way around?

LABERIA
25-08-16, 12:44
They call them Vlasi because the Orthodox people they came into contact with in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Lika were mostly Romance speaking highland dwellers. There are many contemporary Ragusan and Venetian sources making a clear distinction between Serbs and Vlachs, especially in Herzegovina and Montenegro. Many of today's Serbs in these regions were ethnically recorded as Vlachs before and although belonging to the Serbian Orthodox Church, they still used Vlach personal names. Part of their lastnames were Albanian/Arbanasi too, estimated around 20%. Bear in mind that until the Middle Ages people in Central Serbia called highlanders Ghegs.

The question was for Garrick. I am curious to know his opinion.

Nik
25-08-16, 12:56
The question was for Garrick. Are you an sockpuppet of Garrick?
He will definitely dismiss the existence of Vlachs in Medieval Serbia. Probably he'll say they were just Serbian shepherds erroneously called Vlachs because of their lifestyle.

Diurpaneus
01-09-16, 20:04
Traditional costumes from Arges,the meanders,mostly
rectangular,seem to point to a Greek-Roman origin.

7963

7964

7965

Garrick
01-09-16, 21:09
The question was for Garrick. I am curious to know his opinion.

I am partly (1/4) of Aromanian (Cincar) origin.

Unfortunately Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Aromanians:

"The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha. Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kor%C3%A7%C3%AB) and Berat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berat).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

LABERIA
01-09-16, 22:17
The question was this:

Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?

I am partly (1/4) of Aromanian (Cincar) origin.

Unfortunately Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Aromanians:

"The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha. Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kor%C3%A7%C3%AB) and Berat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berat).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

Can you try at least once to answer to the question and not to avoid with this kind of falsification prepared at wiki by zoupan, aleksikua and company? Answer to the question and don`t try to enter in discussion that you don`t have a any idea.

LABERIA
02-09-16, 10:45
There is this video where this famous serb historian Dr. Deretic says his opinion about vlachs, romanians and serbs. I want to make clear from the the beginning that i don`t share the same opinion with him. This is in general, the view of the serb academics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3AxvQlWkN4

Dr Jovan Deretic - Who are Romanians???-

Garrick
02-09-16, 23:31
There is this video where this famous serb historian Dr. Deretic says his opinion about vlachs, romanians and serbs. I want to make clear from the the beginning that i don`t share the same opinion with him. This is in general, the view of the serb academics.

Laberia, why you give importance.

Deretic is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Deretic is pseudo historian and he is not academic.
...

If you like to learn about science in Serbia, you can visit the site of Serbian academy, or Serbian universities.

You can see for example Belgrade university is highly ranked in the world.

Academic Ranking of World Universities 2015


http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2015.html

Or you can see Serbian young mathematicians have good results in Mathematical Olympiads, past year they won four medals (this year five):

http://www.nis.eu/en/presscenter/success-of-young-mathematicians-with-nis-support

One of the best competitors of all time in Mathematical Olympiads is from Serbia.

Or you can learn what you want.

...
Serbian scientists are known around the world.

Why do you find charlatanes?

When Albanian Prime Minister Rama visited Belgrade, Serbia has pledged assistance in many areas.

Serbia will help Albania everywhere including science, good cooperation is important for Balkan countries.

But surely not in xihat, this will not pass in 21 century.

LABERIA
02-09-16, 23:54
Laberia, why you give importance.

Deretic is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Deretic is pseudo historian and he is not academic.
...

If you like to learn about science in Serbia, you can visit the site of Serbian academy, or Serbian universities.

You can see for example Belgrade university is highly ranked in the world.

Academic Ranking of World Universities 2015


http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2015.html

Or you can see Serbian young mathematicians have good results in Mathematical Olympiads, past year they won four medals (this year five):

http://www.nis.eu/en/presscenter/success-of-young-mathematicians-with-nis-support

One of the best competitors of all time in Mathematical Olympiads is from Serbia.

Or you can learn what you want.

...
Serbian scientists are known around the world.

Why do you find charlatanes?

When Albanian Prime Minister Rama visited Belgrade, Serbia has pledged assistance in many areas.

Serbia will help Albania everywhere including science, good cooperation is important for Balkan countries.

But surely not in xihat, this will not pass in 21 century.

What have to do Koço Danaj in our discussion? Deretiç is one of the most important scholars of Serbia.
With academics and scholars in Serbia, of course you intend SANU. In the article of Damjan Pavlica he speak about SANU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Academy_of_Sciences_and_Arts
The Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (Serbian: Српска академија наука и уметности, САНУ / Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, SANU) is a national academy and the most prominent academic institution in Serbia, founded in 1841.

SANU is famous for:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANU_Memorandum
Reception[edit]
The memo was denounced by the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, including Slobodan Milošević, the future president of Serbia, who publicly called the memo "nothing else but the darkest nationalism", and Radovan Karadžić, the future leader of Serbs in Bosnia, who stated "Bolshevism is bad, but nationalism is even worse".[8] Despite these declarations, Milošević, Karadžić, and other Serb politicians publicly agreed with most of the memo and would form close political connections with the writers of the memo such as Mihailo Marković, who became the vice-president of the Socialist Party of Serbia and Dobrica Ćosić who was appointed president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.[9]

As you see, this are not scholars but criminals and unfortunately this are your highest intelectuale elite. In front of this criminals, Deretiç is an amateur. This guys are serious in their work.

Diurpaneus
03-09-16, 10:12
The plural of baiat(boy) is baieti,which indicates the alternative singular baiet,
also in use.


"Baiet" is a Northern Latin variant,it ultimately comes from a form of the verb
"valeo","valet",exactly like the french word, and it is similar to Mantovan bagaet.
The semantic link is assured by the Italian words.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C4%83iat

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valet

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valeo#Latin



băiat
boy; servant, page
Russu
variant băiet;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin

"We found Emiliano-Romagnolo
Mantovan bagaet ”ragazzo, boy”"

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords



Latin v--> Romanian b


Latin veteranus,Romanian batran
Latin alveus,Romanian albie
Latin corvus,Romanian corb




The loss of intervocalic "l"


Latin folia,Romanian foaie
Latin filius,Romanian fiu
Latin familia,Romanian femeie




"The first line, the northern line, La Spezia – Rimini, is supposed to separate Gallo-Romance
dialects from Toscan, Southern Italian dialects, AND Romanian.
In fact, Romanian shares most phonetic shifts with the North.
The comparison of Lombard with Romanian may fine-tune the chronology
of phonetic shifts in Gallo-Romance."


"We suppose a linguistic continuum between Raetia, North Italy, Pannonia and Dacia,
interrupted in the 400-s, after which proto-Rumanian would evolve separately."




http://www.academia.edu/10464761/Romanian_and_the_Italian_dialects_II


Baiat resembles Italian dialectal forms like Calabrian bajazza(servant,easy woman),
vajazzu(servant,peasant),note the v/b alternation from the Italian dialects.


EDIT

If indeed related,the Albanian "bije" (daughter) could be the result of a regressive derivation from baiat/baiet or a similar form.
Because baiat can afford to lose the "-t" suffix,coming from Latin valeo.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.php?D1=9&H1=109&T1=valeo

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Common_Lexic_in_Romanian_and_Albanian._Substrate_a nd_Loanwords


I have started my thoughts from the French word,because it
seems to have the most reliable etymology so far and the most stable vocals,a-e;
if Latin valeo(or other roots that have the vocal pattern a-consonant-e)
is the source of all these terms,then the South Italian versions and
Romanian baiat had undergone assimilation.
If these last forms are closer to the Latin
root,then the French valet,North Italian bagaet and
Romanian baiet had suffered dissimilation.




Regardless of their etymology,these linguistic ways of
divergence,assimilation and dissimilation,certified by
the Romanian(baiet-baiat) and Italian(Northern bagaet-
Southern bajazza,vajazzu) variations,can indicate a common root.

Garrick
03-09-16, 10:23
What have to do Koço Danaj in our discussion? Deretiç is one of the most important scholars of Serbia.
With academics and scholars in Serbia, of course you intend SANU. In the article of Damjan Pavlica he speak about SANU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Academy_of_Sciences_and_Arts
The Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (Serbian: Српска академија наука и уметности, САНУ / Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, SANU) is a national academy and the most prominent academic institution in Serbia, founded in 1841.

SANU is famous for:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANU_Memorandum
Reception[edit]
The memo was denounced by the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, including Slobodan Milošević, the future president of Serbia, who publicly called the memo "nothing else but the darkest nationalism", and Radovan Karadžić, the future leader of Serbs in Bosnia, who stated "Bolshevism is bad, but nationalism is even worse".[8] Despite these declarations, Milošević, Karadžić, and other Serb politicians publicly agreed with most of the memo and would form close political connections with the writers of the memo such as Mihailo Marković, who became the vice-president of the Socialist Party of Serbia and Dobrica Ćosić who was appointed president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.[9]

As you see, this are not scholars but criminals and unfortunately this are your highest intelectuale elite. In front of this criminals, Deretiç is an amateur. This guys are serious in their work.

Laberia. Why do you show frustration?

Because Albanian science has no significant results.

Because University of Tirana is not in the Shanghai list. Do you know what criteria are for the list.

You have nothing about copy paste.

You should go in scientific bases and you can see how little Albanians publish relevant scientific papers.

I told you. Serbia will help Albania in many areas including science, it is not disputed.

But for science it takes a lot of efforts. Science requires critical thinking, what missing enough in Albania.

And it is due to school system. Probably it is the reason why Albanian youth has no better results.

Cooperation is much better than confrontation, and in cooperation everyone can learn something.

LABERIA
03-09-16, 13:41
Laberia. Why do you show frustration?

Because Albanian science has no significant results.

Because University of Tirana is not in the Shanghai list. Do you know what criteria are for the list.

You have nothing about copy paste.

You should go in scientific bases and you can see how little Albanians publish relevant scientific papers.

I told you. Serbia will help Albania in many areas including science, it is not disputed.

But for science it takes a lot of efforts. Science requires critical thinking, what missing enough in Albania.

And it is due to school system. Probably it is the reason why Albanian youth has no better results.

Cooperation is much better than confrontation, and in cooperation everyone can learn something.

Just pls stop with your trollling and don't derail this thread with this so called help of Serbia. You have to provide first to the Albanians who are citizens of Serbia the medical care, because the government of Albania and Kosova are investing money in your country because this citizens are abandoned by your government.
About our scholars, we have people respected world wide and not criminals and charlatans like your pseudo scholars. TBH, i will feel shame if our scholars were at this level.
Now pls again, stop derailing this thread. You are free to open a new thread where you can tell us about the glory of your country. If you insist with this trollling posts, i will open a new thread about this criminals that you consider scholars.
Here in this thread there is a question for you, without answer:

Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?

Garrick
03-09-16, 18:30
Just pls stop with your trollling and don't derail this thread with this so called help of Serbia. You have to provide first to the Albanians who are citizens of Serbia the medical care, because the government of Albania and Kosova are investing money in your country because this citizens are abandoned by your government.
About our scholars, we have people respected world wide and not criminals and charlatans like your pseudo scholars. TBH, i will feel shame if our scholars were at this level.
Now pls again, stop derailing this thread. You are free to open a new thread where you can tell us about the glory of your country. If you insist with this trollling posts, i will open a new thread about this criminals that you consider scholars.
Here in this thread there is a question for you, without answer:

I will ignore some nonsenses.

Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Now we can back to the thread.

Aromanians are important for this thread too.

Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.

Garrick
03-09-16, 18:42
Diurpaneus
Please, excuse me because two posts which are not linked with thread but I had to put (Deretic is not scientist and nothing to do with history).

What do you think about Aromanians who had to left Albania and they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania. Are you investigate them?

LABERIA
03-09-16, 18:47
I will ignore some nonsenses.

Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Now we can back to the thread.

Aromanians are important for this thread too.

Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.

Don't you feel shame from yourself?

Diurpaneus
05-09-16, 16:01
Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.


the fall of the intervocalic "n":


Latin granum,Romanian grau


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/symphonia#Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zampogna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsampouna

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cimpoi




"Une chose me paraît sûre en tout cas : la çampona de Garcilaso
comme celle de Sannazaro, c'est bien quelque chose comme la
gaita galicienne et asturienne, la bagpipe écossaise. Et peut-être
en est-il de même de la çapona (?) de l'Archiprêtre : lecture du
reste discutable, à laquelle le manuscrit de Tolède substitue
ca(n)pana. Et rien ne prouve que, là où il parle de çinjonias, ou
de simfonia, il fasse allusion au même instrument.""


http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_0007-4640_1941_num_43_2_2906.pdf

http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_0007-4640_1949_num_51_2_3184.pdf



http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/blogs/thinking/2008/02/french-teenagers-disagree-on-n.html


We can see the same differentiation in the case of flute,the Spanish,Portuguese,
Albanian and Greek terms are feminine,contrasting with the Romanian neuter.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flauta

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B1#Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flojere#Albanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fluier

Diurpaneus
06-09-16, 21:22
I thought you were claiming to be central Italian? There is no way a Central Italian would get 25-40% Asia Minor on National Geographic. How could you have gotten your Genographic results and not looked at the autosomal make up of Tuscans on it? They are 4% Asia Minor, lower than Greeks and Romanians, which makes sense from everything else we know about them, particularly in relationship to Greeks, where they plot north of even the more northern Greeks.
https://s22.postimg.io/y9x754ylb/Geno_2_0_South_Europe.jpg




The genetic projects like National Geographic or Family Tree DNA rely on
circumstances,without having a statistical basis.
This database from Family Tree DNA contains only the results of the Romanian Ashkenazi Jews.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/romania/dna-results


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania?iframe=yresults



I have been to Italy and Spain,their most common anthropological type
is Dinaric(it can also be expanded to Portugal,including Madeira's
Cristiano Ronaldo) ,the Italians have also an important Alpine strain.
In fact, the Dinaric type is consistently present in Ireland,not to mention France,England or
Germany.




Federico Piovaccari


7975


Portuguese football coach Tony Conceicao


7976





Somehow,the Americans,the Canadians and the Latin Americans are pretty much Dinaric.
Now that the 3/4 of the World proudly represent this type,I would reverse
the exercise,who AREN'T Dinaric?


Maybe the Russians?


If in Romania they have used the Basarab surname ,in Russia I will switch to Volohov
and Vlasov:


7981

7982


7983


7988



(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/


http://press.nationalgeographic.com/2012/07/26/basarab-surname-relation-vlad-the-impaler/


https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/about/programs/documentary-photography-project/grantees/national-geographic-society







About Romania

The never-ending transhumace had constantly moved the shepherds,starting with the Proto-Romanians,
from the mountains to the plains and back,from a region to another and vice-versa,creating a
strong uniformizing effect. Anthropologically,it would have only meant tendencies
towards Dinaricization.

EDIT

"Hanesh well says (p. 39) : "The unity of the Roumanian race in the trials of its early days, was maintained thanks to the shepherds. Passing with their flocks over the Carpathians and the Balkans and the broad Danubian plains, the Roumanians in the pastoral stage kept in constant touch with one another, spread and preserved the same language and the same ways. In time, part of the Roumanian race became farmers, part (after the founding of the Roumanian principalities) settled down as business men and officials, but part still remained shepherds, carrying on the same manner of life as their forebears of a thousand years before. Even today, these shepherds follow the same paths from the mountain to the plain, and the plain to the mountain, and continually cross the Baragan, the Dobrudja and Bessarabia."

http://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2006/10/


http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


............. .............. ........................ ...................

EDIT

At least uncle Leo was a Jew.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYZBKqemQrU

EDIT

Uralophobia or Turkophobia weren't the themes of this post,because I don't hate these people,
it was only about taking things out of context for economic purposes.

Diurpaneus
13-09-16, 17:52
Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.



I have found a better similarity,the Latin and French forms
are feminine,unlike the neuter ones from Romanian.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/landica


The word seems to had been taboo even for the Romans,we can
clearly see this from its occurrence within the Romance
languages,being preserved only in French and Romanian.
It couldn't have been different,because it represents
the rude form of a rude word.


Although the Proto-Romanian/Vlachs were considered,perhaps,of
vicious vulgarity by the Byzantine authors, it can be hardly
concluded that their pre-Roman ancestors had proudly adopt the
term.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=ivanko+vlach+lamb&source=bl&ots=Aq6ZDl2Zs6&sig=e5HSkR0cSgb1vo2H-7X-XZYLLQY&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMrt_914zPAhWDcRQKHYLlCe0Q6AEIGjAA#v=on epage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20lamb&f=false


"In celebration of the marriage between Hrs and Kamytzes daughter Dobromir
gorged himself of food and wine. His wife, however, ate in reluctance
from plates placed in front of her respecting the code for behavior for
newlyweds. Hrs annoyed at her eating habits commanded her to eat with him.
And when she didn’t comply immediately he flew into a rage. Speaking
his native tongue(s) (Macedonian, Vlach, or both) for some time he
spoke to his wife in Greek (Rhomaoi) with contempt
“Do not eat or drink”.(macedoniantruth.org)



Judging from the word's dispersion,I propose two theories,which
don't exclude each other,on the contrary:


1. This term could have only circulated through the army,both Gaul
and Dacia(plus the Danubian Moesia) were heavily militarized,
because of their strategic importance.
A further connection includes its almost exclusive medical usage in
writings.


2. Romanian has Northern Latin terms(see the earlier posts),the presence
of the related French word points to this category.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=609pAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=latin+landica&source=bl&ots=1nh5pRzkyY&sig=IYOSGsB6iVOrwwe3iMDPTRzkuFs&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw5tDm0ozPAhXEBBoKHRygCm44ChDoAQgfMAE#v =onepage&q=latin%20landica&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity#Land.C4.ABca:_the_clitoris


https://books.google.ro/books?id=GDP9VHGbF1AC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=latin+landica+medical&source=bl&ots=_TA_PRDy8U&sig=MHaMlGV8BsLyKQDX6z8gzA3cbzg&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL4p_v0YzPAhWFvxQKHUNoBMwQ6AEINzAD#v=on epage&q=latin%20landica%20medical&f=false

Diurpaneus
17-09-16, 08:28
"In addition to the activity itself, shepherds were the factors that contributed to keepthe unity and the national consciousness in all the provinces inhabited by Romanians bypreserving the language, toponymy, religion and traditional customs and transmitting themfrom generation to generation."



"Themost difficult situation occurred in the first years of communist period when the flock weredramaticly reduced by the politics of forced collectivization.The transhumance was even forbidden between 1952 and 1955, being again stimulatedbetween 1965 and 1989, when the shepeherds used to be one of the few milionaires ofSocialist Romania (Drăgănescu, 1998)."

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/shepherds-storm-romanian-parliament-protest-sheepdog-law


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3360776/Romanian-shepherds-protest-law-number-sheepdogs.html


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/12/15/romanian-shepherds-break-into-parliament-grounds-to-protest-law-that-limits.html



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvm_IzzKQQs


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiL8qHampbPAhWGPRQKHV65Bc8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vice.com%2Fen_uk%2Fread%2From anian-shepherds-stormed-parliament-demanding-their-sheepdogs-back&bvm=bv.133178914,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNGSI3_6-WtQmEYpNalV2yDk0pnb9Q&ust=1474195025152627

"It is worth mentioning that the current Romanian prime-minister Dacian Ciolos, a former EU commissioner for agriculture, was a member of the “Friends of Europe", an association funded by the Open Society foundation. A fact he forgot to disclose to the Romanian people. However, his government was often referred to as “the Government of Soros” due to the fact that it is entirely formed from former NGO activists, Soros students, managers of multinational corporations and ardent Atlanticists. So, this country today is openly ruled by the American billionaire."


http://www.firstfarms.dk/en/about-firstfarms/firstfarms-romania/

http://www.arc2020.eu/2015/07/new-report-land-grabbing-romania/

"Land grabbing" is an innapropriate term ,because the "investor's" foreign
state offers consultation and financial support to facilitate this colonization.


"Petrom's huge workforce of 59,000, almost 10 times bigger than OMV's 6,100."(the figures at the privatization of Petrom)

8019


http://www.euronews.com/2014/12/05/crude-awakening-romania-s-black-sea-oil-and-gas-finds-fuel-europe-s-energy-hopes


http://www.roconsulboston.com/Pages/InfoPages/Businesspages/ExxonOMVGas.html

With these links I try to explain the genetic structure of Romania.
The Neolithic and the Bronze Age are well-known,but there had to be
an Oil Age too,to deal with burnings.
The pastoralists' wandering had just followed the instinct.

"There isn't always a direct connection between the genetic structure of a population
and its cultural or linguistic background"(Florin Stanciu ,the author of a DNA study).
Then, he and the moderator of "Garantat 100%" had an interesting smile.
He labels the Romanian population as "strongly Slavic"(that would have upset Coon and others),
BECAUSE IT HAS A SIMILAR GENETIC STRUCTURE
WITH THE SERBS,MACEDONIANS,CROATIANS AND BOSNIANS.
Although in the paper he admits that these connections can also indicate the Paleo-Balkanic element:

"Pe baza acestor rezultate, populaţia românească de sex masculin (pentru cei 9 şi 12 loci Y-STR analizați), este mai apropiată genetic de Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herţegovina şi Croația."

"În ceea ce priveşte similitudinile genetice dintre aceste populații, prin extrapolare, se pot emite două ipoteze principale: a) asemănarea genetică între aceste populații reflectă distribuţia unei populaţii paleo-balcanice, cum ar fi populația tracică sau b) evenimentul istoric recent cu cea mai mare influenţă asupra structurii genetice a populaţiei actuale, a fost migraţia slavă din nord-estul Europei către Peninsula Balcanică."

He didn't mention anything about the database either:

"Un număr de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sânge, fire de par, etc.) au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate şi alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecţi, victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6, în acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea şi funcţionarea Sistemului Naţional de Date Genetice Judiciare.
În vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate în studiul populațional de față, s-a ținut cont în primul rând de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede la Art. 11"

http://www.fundatia.ro/en/integrated-strategies-natural-resource-exploitation-supported-grant-trust-civil-society-central-and

The closest countries in the Y-STR analysis were Macedonia and Serbia,pointing to
haplogroups like I2a and E-V13.

This is not an invitation to extremism,but only a response to degenerated ideas,
actions and behaviours.

EDIT:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=ht_-CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT48&lpg=PT48&dq=vlach+coarse&source=bl&ots=mM_841f1hX&sig=eSB-CQQk4f6ZocvHgu-OFFCI0tA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinwbPFxJjPAhVGUhQKHZekAbgQ6AEIJDAC#v=on epage&q=vlach%20coarse&f=false

Diurpaneus
18-09-16, 10:13
"Type of organization and
association between cattle owners, “the celnic” at Aromanian shepherds and the “the
păcurar” at Romanians, had similar functions".

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


The Balkan Romance languages also have correspondences to the Romanian term,
such as the Aromanian picurar and picular,Megleno-Romanian picurar,
and Istro-Romanian pecuror.
These forms don't divert from the original Latin/Romance structure,
unlike Romanian,where "e"/"i" had shifted to "ă".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pecorarius


"In Tosk there exists (stressed) ë, an equivalent of Rum â, î, BulgЪ ъ .
This Tosk vowel corresponds to various nasal vowels in Geg."
(Orel,"Albanian Dictionary")


Actually, the common vowel with the Bulgarian and Tosk Albanian is "ă",
Orel was fortunately confused by the fact that the Romanian"â"/ "î" is the same
with the usual Slavic pronunciation of the Bulgarian character,
but it is no less true that in Bulgarian it(also) sounds like in Albanian
and Romanian.


The Romanian vowel is strongly related to certain phonetical shifts
that took place within the words of Latin origin.


Romanian bătrân,Latin veteranus
Romanian păr,Latin pilus
Romanian plămân,Latin pulmonem
Romanian băşică,Latin vesica
Romanian păsa,Latin pensare
Romanian vătăma,Latin victimare


This similarity suggests that,despite their actual location,the Tosks
have formed even further northwards,being in contact with the Romanians
and Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_alphabet

EDIT:

The vowel "ă" is also involved in the sound shifts of the Southern Danubian
Romance,but its occurrence is rarer.


Aromanian bitãrnu
Arom,Istro-R and Megleno-R per
Arom. pălmună (plimună), istr. plumăre.
Arom. bișică, megl. bișocă
Arom. vatăm, vătămare, megl. vatăm

Diurpaneus
18-09-16, 13:03
EDIT:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=ht_-CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT48&lpg=PT48&dq=vlach+coarse&source=bl&ots=mM_841f1hX&sig=eSB-CQQk4f6ZocvHgu-OFFCI0tA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinwbPFxJjPAhVGUhQKHZekAbgQ6AEIJDAC#v=on epage&q=vlach%20coarse&f=false


The Vlach shepherds' rivalry is one of the main themes of this old Romanian folk ballad called "Miorita"("The Young Ewe"),its ancient origin is supported by the above link.

"Near a low foothill
At Heaven’s doorsill,
Where the trail’s descending
To the plain and ending,
Here three shepherds keep
Their three flocks of sheep,
One, Moldavian,
One, Transylvanian
And one, Vrancean.
Now, the Vrancean
And the Transylvanian
In their thoughts, conniving,
Have laid plans, contriving
At the close of day
To ambush and slay
The Moldavian;
He, the wealthier one,
Had more flocks to keep,
Handsome, long-horned sheep,
Horses, trained and sound,
And the fiercest hounds."

http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita%20-eng.html


Another Proto-Romanian motif is the messenger sent to lie the shepherd's mother,
trying to hide his death,the Old Aromanian funeral traditions similarly implied that the
herdsman's fellows would announce his mother about the departure of his son abroad
(or in the mountains)with his sheeps.The motif seems to be of pre-Christian Greek-Roman origin.

"How I met my death,
Tell them not a breath;
Say I could not tarry,
I have gone to marry
............................

Should you meet somewhere,
My old mother, little,
With her white wool girdle,
Eyes with their tears flowing,
Over the plains going,
Asking one and all,
Saying to them all,
’Who has ever known,
Who has seen my own
Shepherd fine to see,
Slim as a willow tree,
With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheat’s ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe"



pg.8:

http://www.proiectavdhela.ro/pdf/n_saramandu_miorita.pdf





"In a traditional Romanian funeral song (available on Romanian EthnographicLandscapes) a mother mourns her son, comparing his short life to a garden flower
and with the morning dew. The most noteworthy thing about this song is the
mother’s conviction that her son’s life is over (unlike the garden flower which will
grow again). Nothing was left from the famous Dacian certitude of immortality, and
no explicit Christian hope for resurrection either. He is dead forever leaving his
mother “in deep sorrow”. The mother also mentions that she would have lived long
enough to organize his wedding instead of the funeral ceremony. An interesting
variation of this motif is also present in Mioriţa, where the mother of the young
shepherd, eventually killed by his companions, is told that her son disappeared, not
because he died, but because he married an Emperor’s daughter. The grief is too
great to be endured"

"This attitude is ritualistic and it does not depend on private feelings.
Obviously the Roman influence was so strong that the famous Dacian “joy of death”
seems almost forgotten."


http://www.philologica-jassyensia.ro/upload/VIII_2_Cap-Bun.pdf

Diurpaneus
24-09-16, 17:06
The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.


The man is Dinaric,most likely of Macedonian ancestry or from the
Macedonian-Greek-Paleo-Balkanic spectrum.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/UrumqiWarrior.jpg


"His headband could be a diadem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadem), a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry



"In the army there were 25,000 Macedonians, 7,600 Greeks, and 7,000 Thracians and Illyrians, but the chief officers were all Macedonians, and Macedonians also commanded the foreign troops"

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html


"Because the two symbols of Achilles (Chiron) and Heracles (Nemean lion skin) are combined,the tapestry might also be a representation of Alexander the Great — he referred to these as histwo ancestors and was often represented with large eyes."

"Descended from the Argead kings of Argos, Alexander claimed Heracles as his ancestor; thus he was consideredto belong to the first generation in the lineage of this royal family that started with Heracles’s legendary son,Temenos. Alexander believed himself to be a relative of Achilles through his mother as well. Although the blue-eyedking represented on the Sampul tapestry does not really look like Alexander, the association with Chiron andHeracles should indicate a certain degree of ethnic connection, if not a lineage."
(SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS)

EDIT

My observations antedate copy-paste.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c0/23/e0/c023e07ad9a625525d0856491c172dd6.jpg

EDIT2

He had probably acquired some Central Asian/Bactrian sets of genes,but his main traits
remain Dinaric.In any case,if there was a Khotanese stylization,the effects are obviously
milder,because the man strongly resembles by his Dinaricity,the Aromanians,the Macedonian
Greeks,the Macedonian Macedonians,the Greeks or the other Balkanic people.

Diurpaneus
25-09-16, 10:15
I was recently to Madrid,in a coffee-shop I have met two Spaniards and the discussion went
towards their opinion about the Romanians.One of them smiled at me "The only problem with the
Romanians is that they work too much!",
"why?",I answered,"I think that's because of Communism",he replied;
"It's much more than that;they work hard,because they want to have much,so they can joyfully
and proudly present to their neighbours and friends what they have accomplished,saying
'I have done something in my life',that's our old way of doing things",was my response.
This mentality also exists in the Aromanian families.



He countinued,saying that he knew some Romanians from Spain and one of his friends has
Romanian employees,who always stress him about punctuality and to keep the
workplace in a good condition.
The last thing he told me was,"the men are OK,very sociable,you can laugh and party for hours
with them,but the ladies are hard to conquer","por que?","because they are Orthodox,the Catholics are
allowing too much";I sincerely disapproved him,"It can't be",but he insisted.
I wanted to speak about the women,telling that "It's true ,they are well-mannered,but it has also to do with
cleverness".
The man was not a dumb,he works at Prado.


This image can be easily found in the rural novels,
strongly contrasting to the Romanian/Vlach pattern
created during Communism,where the man always finds the moral
strength and wisdom to return to decency,which in his
case is identified with misery.


Even in the anti-Communist novel Morometii, the head of the
family accepts,with a sarcastic wisdom, his condition,but their sons won't,
in the old manner.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=SXkVKq86YIkC&pg=PA530&lpg=PA530&dq=morometii+novel+family%27s+capital&source=bl&ots=crPd_dihtS&sig=B0cT_Eof2ceWqOookcCy-6ccS5k&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzuKSaiqrPAhVLXRQKHat-CowQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=morometii%20novel%20family's%20capital&f=false




The pre-Communist novels clearly present the reality,where the shepherds
and the peasants have ( using moral methods or not,based on intelligence or initiave)
to become wealthy.Way beyond the physical advantages,stands their will to gain a better
social status.
Ion is such a case,he realizes that,despite being the best worker from the village,his low rank
within the community follows him everywhere,and he can't stand it,planning to marry a rich girl,
instead of his lover.The power of this novel is that,even today many Romanian peasants
still can identify themselves with the hero.


Although their strategy seems flawless, having in many moments cold blood,
their great ambition makes them psychologically unstable to a certain degree,
both innerly and outerly expressed.

http://theculturetrip.com/europe/romania/articles/liviu-rebreanu-exploring-the-boundaries-of-romanian-identity/


https://books.google.ro/books?id=gw9qkwbIKCkC&pg=PA220&lpg=PA220&dq=ion+novel+liviu+rebreanu+peasant&source=bl&ots=quahIigfHQ&sig=on5Xleo4qg_cIkGLEFwHbKGyaEQ&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEssjAh6rPAhUJxRQKHT1xBXA4ChDoAQgwMAk#v =onepage&q=ion%20novel%20liviu%20rebreanu%20peasant&f=false

Yetos
25-09-16, 11:51
The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.

"His headband could be a diadem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadem), a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry



wow,

I had never heard of that,

that is really interesting,

Diurpaneus
25-09-16, 12:24
wow,

I had never heard of that,

that is really interesting,

Search for the EDIT2 and you'll see.

Diurpaneus
26-09-16, 10:29
Tracking the Romanian habit of having much(non-Communist element).


It may sound odd,but those fluffy sheeps have made big bucks at least
since the Early Middle Ages,way before the English wool/cloth had
reached Anvers.The Vlachs enter the history described as shepherds,
merchants,warriors and horsemen.The linguistic evidence prove that
the commercial activity was, like the other above-mentioned attributes,
originary,many words pertaining to this domain were preserved from Latin
(Grigore Brancusi,"Introducere in Istoria Limbii Romane"),representing
the great majority of the economical ones:
vinde(to sell),cumpara(to buy),imprumuta(to borrow),negot(business),
schimba(to change),datorie(debt),pierde(to lose),incarca(to load),
descarca(unload),pret(price),castiga(to earn,gain),capata(ultimately
from capitalis;to earn,gain)etc.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A2%C8%99tiga

http://www.agerpres.ro/engleza-destinatie-romania/2014/12/19/destination-romania-ialomita-county-a-brief-history-14-08-19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ora%C8%99ul_de_Floci


"According to old documents and maps, thecommercial road going down from central Europe tothe center of Transylvania passed the Danubethrough Vadu Oii shallow, following Ialomiţa Riverto the Black Sea. Ever since Mircea cel Bătrân reignthere was a custom house near Vadu Oii shallow andalso a gantry at the Danube shore for trading ships.Markets formed nearby the custom house and thegantry where traders stopped, every so often at first,then permanently. Around the market developedlater Floci Town"



Vadu Oii is the place from where you can cross the Danube,it means the Sheep's Ford.


http://www.turist-in-romania.ro/ialomita/obiective/OrasuldeFloci.pdf (http://www.turist-in-romania.ro/ialomita/obiective/OrasuldeFloci.pdf)





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotino


The Vlach's commercial and military spirit had led them to create a
concentrated form of autonomy called The Vlach Law.
We have to remember this form of organization,otherwise will become
like Congo.

http://www.romania-insider.com/romania-demographic-bomb-natural-decline-2016/

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html

Diurpaneus
09-10-16, 15:18
"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
the text from Kekaumenos, "Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés



For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the
Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.


The Byzantine military chief of Sirmium had the title of "strategos of Serbia",who was in charge
to defend a large section of the Danubian frontier,from this city until Vidin,that's why Kekaumenos
uses the words "along the Danube and Sava,WHERE NOW THE SERBS LIVE".
The Byzantines' most frequent name for the Hungarians was "Dacians",this,corroborated with
another geographical reference, the frontier of"the Danube and Sava",points that Kekaumenos obvioulsly places
the "Dacian" Vlachs, in the territory located north of the Danubian sector between Sirmium and Vidin,
in/near the Hungarian lands.For the Byzantines,the Hungarians and the Dacian Vlachs are "Dacians",
while the Bulgarians(with the core in the NE part of the country) and the Vlachs from the Haemus(Balkan
Mountains) are "Mysians".


But the Vlachs are also the "Bessi"from the Byzantine Empire,so the military mind conceives their
homeland in the contact zone with the Hungarian state,"along the Danube and Sava',to justify
the present "dispersion" and differentiation(Byzantine Bessi vs. Hungarian Dacians).


After Basil II's conquest of Bulgaria,the ecclesiastical structure is
reorganized in this territory,the seat of Vlach bishop was in Vreanoti,
today's Vranje,located in the
valley of Southern Morava,which is part of the "land of Bessi".
That's why Kekaumenos was definitely not the only Byzantine/Greek
who knew about the Vlach communities from this area.














"Komnena, like other Byzantine authoers, generally refers to the Hungarians as Dacians."
(Elemer Illyes,"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area")






from Paul Stephenson,"Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


"Anna adds that they were inspired
by the treachery of the Dacians. The latter were clearly the
Hungarians;




"A glance at any map of the middle Byzantine empire at its ‘apogee’ in
1025 will show that Basil II exercised authority throughout the lands of
the southern Slavs, and the border of his empire ran west along the Sava
and Danube from Sirmium to the Black Sea, and south the length of the
Adriatic coast from Istria through Dyrrachium and into Greece."




"In 1018 the patrikios Constantine Diogenes was designated commander
in Sirmium and the neighbouring territories. The geographical
range of Constantine Diogenes’ powers is remarkable, and he seems to
have enjoyed de iure authority across a wide, if poorly defined region
which stretched from Sirmium at least as far as Vidin, and then south
into the mountains of Raska (modern Serbia) and Bosna (Bosnia). A seal
in the Dumbarton Oaks collection bearing the legend ‘Constantine
Diogenes, [. . .] strategos of Serbia’ can only be attributed to this character."


"Geza I pursued a more friendly policy towards Byzantium. He was
married, probably in 1075, to the daughter of the Byzantine aristocrat
Theodoulus Synadenus,3 and received at that time the famous crown
which bears (on the reverse) his portrait on an enamel plaque beneath
that of the emperor Michael VII Ducas, and beside the image of
Constantine Ducas the porphyrogennetos."




"After the Byzantine defeats at Bari and Mantzikert in 1071 imperial authority
was challenged throughout the empire and from beyond the frontiers.
The Hungarian Chronicle relates how Belgrade came under attack
from the Hungarian King Salomon, where the Bulgarian and Greek
defenders used ‘Greek fire’ to set light to the Magyars’ ships. To deflect a
second assault they appealed to the Pechenegs (Bisseni), upon whom the
Magyars inflicted great slaughter. The besieged city fell after three months,
and many of the inhabitants were put to the sword before Salomon, and
the dukes Geza and Ladislas marched on to Nis, seizing much plunder en
route. The situation was resolved by negotiation soon thereafter, but it seems
probable that Salomon was allowed to keep the former Byzantine outpost
of Sirmium (modern Sremska Mitrovica), which sat on the northern bank
of the Sava, opposite the residence of the bishop of Sirmium (at
Macvanska Mitrovica)"


"In the same
way, the peoples who occupied the various lands might be called
‘Bulgarians’ (Boulgaroi), although other names were used more frequently,
and with little concern for contemporary accuracy. Thus the
Bulgarians are often called Mysoi, Mysians (but not Moesians) because
they occupied the lands of the former Roman province of Moesia."


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Bela III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"










"The region between the Sava and the Danube was then ceded by
Michael VII to Geza, in 1075, so that he would secure an ally and save at least the region
east of Belgrade, which remained under Byzantine rule nearly until the collapse of the
empire in 1204."


"Confrontations between Hungary,
the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria
for the Belgrade–Vidin Border Region
in the 9th-14th Centuries",Alexandru Madgearu














"Donja Ljubata is situated ca. 15 km west of Bosilegrad,
at the natural communication connecting this region
with the Vranje–Bujanovac Basin"


"Bowl from Davidovac, situated between Vranje and
Bujanovac, decorated with cogwheel tool and circular stamps, kept
in the National Museum in Vranje."




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqpcbXzZDOAhVjIJoKHT1PB2AQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doiserbia.nb.rs%2Fft.aspx%3Fi d%3D0350-02410656201B&usg=AFQjCNF6LisRRkf0FvA3bbw0h1SkTziVnA&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGs


"Nadalje ,u njoj se prvi pu t spominju vlaški vjernici koji su raštrkani na čitavom područj u tearhiepiskopije , tak o reći na čitavom Balkanu . Za njih osniva i zasebn u episkopiju,poznat u ka o vlaška episkopija, koju Mathia s Gy6ni lokalizira na područj uBabune , sjeverno od Prilepa u blizini Velesa, gdje se nalaz e dva sela s imeno mGornj i i Donji Vranovci, a ta se episkopija naziva Vreanotes™ što se svakako prijemož e identificirati s Vranjem"

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwja1MHi0JDOAhVLCSwKHSapA4gQFgghMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhrcak.srce.hr%2Ffile%2F157940&usg=AFQjCNHqVWuRWYwutMuq5OhguqRlg5Nwsw&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGg

" According to a German historian, there apparently was a bishopric of "the Vlachs" with its residence at "Vreanoti" (Vranje) on the upper reaches of the Morava river"

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm


The Crusaders further localize the northern part of "Bessi", in the land situated along the same Morava valley,
between Ravna(Ravno)-Cuprija (the former Horreum Margi) and Nis, calling it "Terra Blacti".
This community, together with a hypothetical Vlach group that "lived along the Danube and Sava,where now the Serbs live",
couldn't be named "Dacians",because Kekaumenos knew that both lands were also owned by the Bulgarians,even for the Crusaders,
the events took place in,along or beyond the "Bulgarian Forest"; these regions were politically/administratively/geographically connected,
making the coordinates(Dacians,Danube and Sava,Serbs) totally unuseful.




"The ‘Bulgarian forest’ which stretched between Belgrade and Nis delayed the
crusaders’ passage into the empire, and gave the imperial commander
five to eight days to prepare for their reception and onward journey."


"Forests abounded in
the region to the west and north of Nis, running right up to the Danube
between its confluence with the Sava and the Velika Morava. Arnold of
Lübeck (118) wrote of the infamous Bulgarian forest (Bulgarewalt) where
marshes impeded the progress of those on horseback or pulling wagons."
(Paul Stephenson,Byzantium's Balkan Frontier")




"Otici imperialia, koje je
nastalo 1211. godine, pominje „Branicevo kraj Dunava” (Brandiz super
Danubium) i „zemlju Vlaha“ (terra Blacti), koju smešta izmedu „mesta
Ravno i mesta Niš“ (vicus Ravana et vicus Nifa). Mesto vicus Ravana, koje
se i u drugim latinskim izvorima pominje pod imenom civitas ili oppidum
Rabinel, jeste srednjovekovni grad Ravno, blizu današnje Cuprije na Moravi,
a vicus Nifa je iskvareni oblik grafije Nissa ili Nisse, koja potice od antickog
naziva Naissus (Niš)."(ROMANIZACIJA I ROMANSKO STANOVNIŠTVO TIMOCKE ZONE OD IDO XVI VEKA)












Both terms "Serbs" and "along the Danube and Sava" were purely militarily,reminding that Sirmium have been the seat of
the strategos of Serbia,the second geographic coordinate being involved as well in the contacts with Hungary.
Although of south Danubian origin,the two notions have been used to differentiate the land located north of it somehow,
because both the Hungarians and Pechenegs were called "Dacians".Without knowing some North-Danubian toponimy,
Kekaumenos uses the Byzantine correspondents,in a well-known fashion.
This association, "Serbs-Danube and Sava", became necessary only from the North-Danubian perspective,because,if the author would have
noted"the Vlachs are Dacians (and Bessi) who lived along the Danube where now the BULGARIANS live",the reader wouldn't have been
able to understand if they were located near the Hungarian Dacians or Pecheneg Dacians,the base from which he could construct the split
being in the same time way too homogenous,therefore, ambiguous.


He knows that these are the only terms who can be used in the Danube frontier to create a differentiation,having the
only purpose to project it northwards.




"In some cases, they
designate with the term Dacians the Pechenegs and Hungarians."
(Concerning the Identification of the Getae, Dacians and Dacia,
from the Byzantine's Woritings ofthe 10-15lh Centuries")


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Q9KwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=pechenegs+dacians&source=bl&ots=NgkP_yd_tq&sig=E00nyh_7fjXqstfZ2sJEN7rypss&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYlpGp583PAhVJxxQKHWlaAhkQ6AEIIjAB#v=on epage&q=pechenegs%20dacians&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_Bulgarian_Empire_(1185-1196).png


http://www.explore-bulgaria.net/explore-bulgaria/images/history/map-kaloyan.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgarian_uprising_of_Peter_Delyan_(1040-1041).svg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_Peter_Delyan



"We know that he served under Michael IV, and, together with Harald Hardrada, in the campaign of 1041 against Deljan,
in Bulgaria (97.18); that he witnessed the downfall of Michael V, on 20th April 1042 (59.7-8, 100.13-16);
and that at some time he served as strategos of Hellas (60.19)"




"As to the geographical location of the stories, fourteen can be located in Hellas or the Balkans; of these, four are
stories about K's relations, and three arise from the revolt of Deljan. Three more of these are concerned with the attacks
by the Pechenegs."


http://www.ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/library/kekaumenos-consilia-et-narrationes/intro-kekaumenos/#index.xml-body.1_div.8



The Vlachs were reliable sources of information,because that was one of their main jobs within
the Byzantine Empire,their positions ranged from road guards and defenders of strategic places(like castles,fortresses etc)
to scouting and spying the enemies.
Their role in the Empire's Intelligence must have been important,since the Byzantines had clearly expressed their despair
after the Vlachs' betrayals,that's why the Asen brothers, Dobromir Chrysos or Ivanko were so succesful, because they knew when,where
and how to act.Kekaumenos would have had alot of opportunities to gather informations from them,directly,being enlisted in his armies or/and
meeting them in Greece(Madgearu says that his place of origin was Larissa) or other places,or indirectly,through the accounts of his relative,
Niculitzas.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIAYMNOOe0YC&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=kekaumenos+vlachs+unfaithful&source=bl&ots=l-9oyPqw8E&sig=VGi_YPTjPfrXkeCj9ZHMJAXb4E4&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii-NiQ5s3PAhVFrRQKHek-CFwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=kekaumenos%20vlachs%20unfaithful&f=false




http://www.academia.edu/18072996/Vlach_Military_Units_in_the_Byzantine_Army_in_Samu els_State_and_Byzantium_History_Legend_Tradition_H eritage._Proceedings_%D0%BEf_the_International_Sym posium_Days_of_Justinian_I_Skopje_17-18_October_2014_Edited_by_Mitko_B._Panov_Skopje_20 15_47-55

EDIT

A better map,presenting Vranje,Nis and Ravna aligned along the Morava .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Bulgaria-Ivan_Asen_2.png

Dibran
10-10-16, 00:39
The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD

From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.



Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.

E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.

Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.

When did the Balkan marker for R1a1a come into Albania?

DuPidh
10-10-16, 02:11
I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml). It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority).

The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage.
It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.

Diurpaneus
14-10-16, 14:56
Traditional Megleno-Romanian song(from 3:05),preserved in an isolated community
from Turkey:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy4v5DtbB8M


"So good are the girls
Hey,hey,the girls
Like milk in the spring"


For these lads,the kind girls become tasty without even noticing,it seems
that the refrain from the second verse is used in this purpose.


We can find the same connection in the Romanian folk ballad Miorita,
where the shepherd's gentleness,innocence and beauty
is compared with milk.


"With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheat’s ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe?’"


http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita%20-eng.html

This article presents some semantic shifts that occured within the
Old Wallachian speech in order to denote or enhance affectivity and
harmony.In fact,this process took place in the Arges county,having the
core in my grandparents' area,from where it has diffused through transhumance.

http://www.mi.bxb.ro/Articol/MI_29_6.pdf

Yetos
14-10-16, 21:12
Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage.
It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.


you mean Messopotamia?
is an Anatolian toponym?
and Greeks are J2a1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmYmbVMWJNs

ihype02
28-10-16, 21:12
You guys are ridiculous.

Diurpaneus
28-11-16, 14:35
Codru comes 100% from Latin,see also the identical Portuguese expression codra do pao(bread's crust).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/codru


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kod%C3%ABr#Albanian


https://books.google.ro/books?id=pTtBAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PT377&lpg=RA4-PT377&dq=codra+do+pao&source=bl&ots=uTPNOt99rY&sig=_FD0hHebfsIG7AZTHr_-A43QajM&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimyvTTtsvQAhWoKcAKHUFhBr8Q6AEIGDAA#v=on epage&q=codra%20do%20pao&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=zlc_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA439&lpg=PA439&dq=quadra+piece+of+bread&source=bl&ots=uHWKGPLzK0&sig=KUjdbo7dQEnmuZt0CYHZTowycbM&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUlMahtsvQAhUnK8AKHeRuAm8Q6AEIMDAH#v=on epage&q=quadra%20piece%20of%20bread&f=false

Diurpaneus
30-11-16, 17:45
Another word inherited from Latin is catun,Albanian katund,meaning highland dispersed village,opposed to a
compact Romanian sat,Aromanian fsat,Albanian fshat,from Latin fossatum,located on the lowlands/flatlands.


http://www.academia.edu/23527880/ANCIENNET%C3%89_ET_DIFFUSION_DU_C%C4%82TUN_VLAQUE_ DANS_LA_P%C3%89NINSULE_BALKANIQUE_AU_MOYEN-%C3%82GE

Aromanian has preserved an additional term,equivalent with catun,falcare,from Latin falcaria(or is it from
falcare,which in Italian means "curved"?these two words come from falx,a sickle,having the semantics centred
in the Italian meaning-curved,having the shape of a sickle-because it represents a well-known Romance development,
for example, Albanian felqine,Romanian/Balkanic Romance falca*,a jaw,this kind of shift also apprears in Sardinian);


Similarly,French canton and Italian cantone originates in the Latin canto(corner),their Romance constructions
must have been derived from cantonum,who is also the root of the Romanian and Albanian terms.
Cantonum has suffered typical Romanian phonetical shifts to turn to catun.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=canton

Latin o,Romanian u
Latin bonus,Romanian bun



Dissimilation with the loss of sound


Latin fratre,Romanian frate
Latin cantonum,Romanian catun



*These semantic changes, from a domain to another**, were typically Latin/Romance developments,
not to mention that the Romanian-Albanian shift is not isolated,as it was previously suggested,
another example being Romanian spate(back),from Latin spatha(sword),who actually has a Romance
correspondent,Latin spatula,French epaule(Marius Sala's list).
The Albanian-Romanian/Balkanic Romance shifts don't represent the influence of the "substratum",
but the independent developments in the spirit of Latin/Romance that took place in the so-called
Eastern Latin.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/falc%C4%83

**ceata(fog), (< lat. caecia(blindness),only in Romanian(it sounds pretty lyrical,thus,literary);
the alternative is negura,Albanian njegull,from Latin nebula.


dezmierda (< lat. *dismerdare,only in Romanian(and Balkan Latin)



" This is also indicated by the changes of meaning of a number of Latin words, many of which are shared by
Romanian and Albanian. There are, for example, N. Rom. padure, Alb. püli "forest," from Lat. palus
(genitive paludis), Vulgar Lat. padule "marsh"; N. Rom. ses, Alb. shesh "lowland," from Lat. sessum (sedere "to sit").
Other examples of changes of meaning shared by Romanian and Albanian are words of everyday use, such as N. Rom. cuvînt "word,
" cuvînta "to say, to utter, to speak," Alb. kuvendoj "I discuss," from Lat. conventus "district court, session, agreement";
N. Rom. cui "nail," Alb. kuj, with the same sense, from Lat. cuneus "wedge."(Elemer Illyes)






"The two languages are also alike in their use of substantive
constructions rather than the infinitive. It is particularly important that
the meaning of some words of Latin origin underwent the same type
of change in Rumanian as in Albanian:
Lat. conventus "gathering, meeting"; Dr. cuvînt, Alb. kuvënd
"speech"; -
Lat. draco "dragon"; Dr. drac, Alb. dreq "devil"; -
Lat. falx "sickle"; Dr. falcã, Alb. fëlqinë‚ "jaw" –
Lat. horreo ´I shudder (with horror)´; Dr. urãsc, Alb. urrej "I
hate"; -
Lat. mergo "I sink"; Dr. merg "I go", Alb. mërgonj " I remove";
Lat palus, paludem. (palude) "swamp"; Dr. pãdure, Alb. pyll
forest
Lat. sella "chair"; Dr. ºale "waist"; Alb, shalë‚ "thigh, leg". –
190
Lat. sessus "session"; Dr. ºes, Alb. shesh "plains"
Lat. veteranus "veteran"; Dr. bãtrîn, Alb. vjetër "old"."(Origins of the Rumanians,Hungarian paper)




P.S.


I won't blame Angela for suggesting that we are some sort of Italianized Illyrian pirates,
who used to let their sheeps on the Albanian riviera,it was her own way to bring us closer.

EDIT:

I have nothing against Albanians or Illyrians,but it is hard to believe that their semi-Romanization
took place on a ship.

Diurpaneus
10-05-17, 14:26
Similarities between Romanian and Calabrian


R. insura,C. nzurar,to marry(a woman).Latin inuxorare,uxor=wife
R. amar,amarat,C. amaru,poveretto, the initial
sense is bitter, from Latin amarus
R. acatarii,with qualities,fine,C. accattari,to buy,buying
R. arama,C. arama,Italian rame,copper,brass
R aseara, C arzira,Italian ieri sera,yesterday evening
R aseza,sede,C assettari,Italian sedere,to sit
R unde,C aundi,Italian dove,where
Latin l>>>>Romanian,Calabrian r
Latin o>>>>Romanian,Calabrian u
C barcunu,Italian balcone
R caragata( read caragazza),C carcarazza,Italian gazza,magpie
R cas,C casu,Italian formaggio,cheese
R cireasa,C cerasa,Italian ciliegia,cherry
Latin j, preserved in Calabrese and Wallachian
C jocari,Wallachian juca(joc=play),Italian giocare,Moldavian giuca(gioc=play),to play
C jovi,Wallachian joi,Italian giovedi,Thursday
In the northern Romanian dialects(Transylvanian and Moldavian) j is replaced by other Latin sounds ,dz(written z in Italian) and g.


R curea,C curia,I cintura,belt
R marita,C maritari,Italian sposare, to marry
R nana,C nanna,Italian nonna
Latin b>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian g
Romanian bine,Aromanian,Moldavian ghini,good
Latin nebula,Italian nebbia,Calabrian nigghia,Albanian njegulle,Romanian negura
R nepotei,C niputeji, Italian nepotini,nephews,diminutive form
R nora,C nora,Italian nuora,daughter in law
R orb,C orbu,Italian cecco,blind
R ou,C ovu, Italian uovo,egg
Transylvanian pacurar,C pecuraru,Aromanian picurar,pecurar,Italian pastore,shepherd
Calabrese pedi,Italin piedi,feet
Latin pedica,North Romanian pedica,Moldavian chedica,Calabrian pedicinu,Wallachian piedica,Italian piedica,shackle,fetter
R piersica,C persicu,perzica,Italian pesca,peach
R soarece, C surice,Italian topo,mouse
R turn,turnu(tower),C turnu,Italian turno(turn,shift,sentry or guard duty)
The use of the term <man> to denote the husband
R om, C uominu,italian marito,husband
Wallachian scufunda,Calabrian skuffundare,Transylvanian and Moldavian cufunda,to dive.


R tamp,tampit,C ntumpa,Italian stupida
R foc,Old Romanian focu,C focu,italian fuoco,fire
R musca,C musca,Italian mosca,fly
R luni,C luni,I lunedi,Monday
R marti C marti,I martedi,Tuesday
Wallachian miercuri,North Romanian mercuri,C mercuri,I mercoledi,Wednesday
R vineri, C venneri,I venerdi,Friday
R duminica,C dominica,I domenica,Sunday
R muiere, C mugliera,muggjeri, I moglie
R rusine,C russure, I vergogna,shame
R soacra, C socra,I suocera, mother in law
R ulm,ulmu,C ulmu,I olmo,elm
R unu,C unu,Italian uno,one
???R zimbru(wisent), C zzimbaru(montone,shepherd.s deputy) ,zimbaru,maschio della capra
The Romanian word seems to be formed from a Proto-Romanian Calabrian-like term, under the influence of the Slavic zonbru.
Other phonetical traits
Latin e >>>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian i
Latin f >>>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian,Spanish,Portuguese h
Latin p>>>>>> Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian c
Conclusions
The closest Italian dialects are the Southern ones,Pugliese and Calabrese,because they were in contact with the Romanian language through the route which connected Southern Italy ,through Naissus and Lissus,with the Danube.It is a strong evidence for the autonomy of the Romanian language,the links with the dialects from northern Italy can be explained by the ecclesiastical influence of Aquileia over the Prefectura Illyricum.*my conclusions


http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53540796http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53540796The most direct route between the southern Adriatic and the central Balkans is thatfrom Lissus at the mouth of the Albanian Drin to Naissus in the Morava valley (RV.1-11).More than once it has been suggested that some of the early Roman expeditions into theBalkans may have followed this line, following the Drin valley to reach Kosovo and thelater mining district around Ulpianum and then the Toplica valley to Naissus. (Roman Danube Survey)


The Roman itinerary road Lissus–Naissus–Ratiaria was, as is well-known, atransversal communication across the central Balkans connecting the Adriaticcoast and the Danube Basin. Taking into account the maritime routebetween the Italic port of Brundisium and Lissus, it was the shortest linkbetween the capital of the Empire and the Danubian limes. Namely, theAppian Way led from Rome to Brundisium, and thence ships sailed to theBalkan Peninsula, where an overland route from Lissus continued along theDrim valley and across the highlands of present-day Albania and Serbia(mostly Kosovo and Metohija) to the Niš Basin with the ancient city ofNaissus at its centre. From Naissus, the road ran along the Timok river valley,took a northeast turn across Kadibogaz, a pass on Stara Planina (northwesternpart of the Balkan Mountain range), and ended at Ratiaria, a Romancolony (present-day Archar on the Danube, Bulgaria). In the period ofthe Empire’s expansion and consolidation of the border on the Danube, theroad was predominantly used for military purposes, for the transportationof troops and supplies to the Danubian limes. With the onset of mining activitiesin Upper Moesia, this important road began to be used for exportingores and thus assumed economic, i.e. commercial, importance.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-7653/2008/0350-76530839047P.pdf

Diurpaneus
11-05-17, 11:18
Romanian murg,the typical reddish dark-brown horse
Romanian amurg,dusk
Albanian murg, monk
Calabrian murga,Italian morchia dell ollio


Mùrga - mùrghi : Morchia dell’olio, > amùrca .
Mùrga : Morchia dell’olio che nel frantoio viene incanalata(Antonio Pisano,Dizionario Dialettale Calabrese)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murg#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amurg


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amurca#Latin





From Antonio Pisano"s Dizionario Dialettale Calabrese


Romanian cusuta,Calabrian cusuta,Italian cucita,sewed
R jurai,C jurai,I ho giurato,I swore
R lotru,C latru,I ladro,thief
R laptuca,C lattuca,I lattuga
R loc,C locu,I luogo,place
R spaima,C spagna,I mette paura,fear
R tata,C tata, I padre,father
R negru,C nigru,I nero,black
R pruna,C pruna,I prugna,plum
R spate,C spadhi,I spalla,back
Wallachian,Megleno-Romanian muma(mother),C mauma,I mia madre
R literary sora mea, R popular sor-mea,C sorma,I mia sorella
R lit. sora ta,R popular sor-ta,C sortta,I tua sorella


EDIT
Latin c>>>>>>>>Romanian ,Calabrian g
The Calabrian pronounciation of Calabria,Galabria
Calabrian arangu,Italian arancia
Latin stancus(tired),Romanian stang(left),the semantic shift is explained
by the position of the heart
Latin scabia,Romanian zgaiba,scratch

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/st%C3%A2ng

Diurpaneus
13-05-17, 17:03
Romanian ce faci?Puglian ce sta faci? Italian che fai?
R. puță(read puzza),P pizza, I.cazzo
R sunt,P sontu,I sono,am,are
R cine sunteti,P chi sinti?,I chi sei?
R cioara(crow),P ciola(magpie)
The term "christian",meaning person,people
R crestin,P cristianu,I persona
R coaie,P cuiuni,I testicoli
R culme,P culme,colmo,I monticello
R cumatra,P cummmare,I madrina
R curea, P curiscia, I cintura
R cutit,P curtieddhu,I coltello
R doi,P doi,I due
R frate,P frate,I fratello
R fier,P fierru,I ferro
Aromanian furnu,P furnu,I forno
R manz(colt),P manzaru(montone,ariete)
R mâță(read mazza),P musscia,I gatto
R insurat,P nzuratu,I sposato
R ou,P ou,I uovo
R rusine,P ruscina, I sporco,dirty,obscene
R sarcina,P sarcina, I fascio
R spinare,P spinnare,I spennare
R nun,P nununne,I padrino



http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53634683




Brinnisi(Puglian pronunciation),Brindisi(Italian pronunciation)
Latin brandeum,Aromanian brana,Romanian brau(plural form brana),popular Romanian brana ,traditional belt
Latin granum,Aromanian gran,Romanian grau(plural grane),Istro-Romanian grawu


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/br%C3%A2u

Diurpaneus
17-05-17, 19:36
*These semantic changes, from a domain to another**, were typically Latin/Romance developments, Lat. falx "sickle"; Dr. falcã, Alb. fëlqinë‚ "jaw" –Lat. sella "chair"; Dr. ºale "waist"; Alb, shalë‚ "thigh, leg". –190Lat. sessus "session"; Dr. ºes, Alb. shesh "plains"because there are some clear patterns.Sense changes:object>>>>>body part,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a bstract>>>>geographical term,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,anothe r thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,The terms for church,Romanian biserica,Old Romanian baseareca,basearica,Aromanian basearica,Megleno-Romanian baserica,came from the Latin form baseleca(Nelu Zugravu),these are all related to some Southern Italian terms.https://nap.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseleca_%27e_Santa_Lucia_a_MareBaselecara,the local name of Basilicata.http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=56180038EDIT esti o capra basinoasa,mititica si paroasa,cati un arici iubaret,cu lipici, da si fasnet http://ro.bab.la/dictionar/romana-engleza/f%C3%A2%C5%9Fne%C5%A3-despre-femei https://nap.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseleca_%27e_Santa_Lucia_a_Mare

Dinarid
18-05-17, 02:44
It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.

DuPidh
18-05-17, 03:04
It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.

Have you heard of a province in southern Romania called Vlachia?

DuPidh
18-05-17, 03:07
It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.
What makes you think it makes more sense for Vlachs to originate in Albania instead of Vlachia?

Dinarid
18-05-17, 03:08
Have you heard of a province in southern Romania called Vlachia?
Yes, I have. It's unclear as to how it got its name, though it is probably related to the Vlachs though if this is the case that would mean they probably migrated there. "Vlach" was what Slavs called the Romanian people.

Apsurdistan
18-05-17, 06:44
And Muslim Bosnians also call Serbs "Vlah", plural Vlasi. At least the region I'm from (Posavina) mostly the older generations call them that.

LABERIA
18-05-17, 07:29
And Muslim Bosnians also call Serbs "Vlah", plural Vlasi. At least the region I'm from (Posavina) mostly the older generations call them that.

Because they are Vlachs settlers, brought by Ottomans to protect the borders. But they were also used for the same purpose by the Austrian. This people later were serbianised from the Serb orthodox Church. In some Ottoman sources Lazar Hrebeljanović is called son of the vlach meanwhile serbs are called eflaks, i.e. Vlachs.

LABERIA
18-05-17, 07:37
It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.

It's one theory. But you have to know that there are different people, unrelated among them who are called Vlachs. For example the Vlachs of Croatia are not related with the Vlachs in South Balkan. The majority of Vlachs in South Balcan were and are to be found in Thessaly. This region once was called Greater Wlachia. The history of the Vlachs is complicated and it's a great enigma.
Meanwhile the origin of the Albanians is from the territories where we live.

Dinarid
19-05-17, 12:32
It's one theory. But you have to know that there are different people, unrelated among them who are called Vlachs. For example the Vlachs of Croatia are not related with the Vlachs in South Balkan. The majority of Vlachs in South Balcan were and are to be found in Thessaly. This region once was called Greater Wlachia. The history of the Vlachs is complicated and it's a great enigma.
Meanwhile the origin of the Albanians is from the territories where we live.
As I understand it the small Romance-speaking groups of the Balkans of a tribal nature (so not the Adriatic islanders who spoke that old Dalmatian Romance) were referred to as "Vlachs", suggesting something of a common origin for some of them. This is of course complicated by the fact that some South Slavs refer to each other by the name as well.

Diurpaneus
21-05-17, 20:30
Marriages controlled by the couple"s families were something common until recently,surely not only for the South Italian, Romanian/Aromanian and Bulgarian people.However,we see this obsession of the South Italian and Romanian/Aromanian people to preserve or more often,to try to raise their social status,this competition starts identically in both cases,when the dowry starts to be prepared soon after the child is born,being defended like the richest stronghold,the Romanian youngster will always marry the richer girl,surely not his lover, and the rural novel Ion has full coverage here.My grandfather from Baragan has done the same and he and his mates had a saying for this:'De la mine a treia casaMa insurai si luai nevastaO luai cu patru boiS-o turma mare de oiBoii tragOile imi placDar cu toanta ce-am sa fac?'"From my place to the third houseI got married and got a spouseI took her with 4 bullsAnd a large flockThe bulls pullThe sheeps I like the mostBut the silly girlI haven,t yet lost"Another common thing for both the Romanians and the Aromanians is this temptation,urge,to break the rules,in the Aromanian documentary Carvanea Armaneasca the couple escapes from the community party,but the man has certain doubts,"Your folks will gonna break my bones!",in the Romanian rural novels like Ion and Morometii or the documentary film Aluna of the Serbian Vlach people we see the typical Romanian scene ,where the man expects the girl or woman in an isolated portion of the road to approach her,the sweet little female won\t get borred,that,s for sure(because the methods are...well,at least complicated).That's why these episodes with Ivancu or Ivanko look tipically Romanian/Vlach.http://www.tuomatrimonio.eu/tradizioni-dal-mondo/il-matrimonio-in-calabria-uno-sguardo-alla-tradizionehttps://www.tentazionedonna.it/paese-che-vai-matrimonio-che-trovi-sposarsi-in-calabria/http://www.encyclopedia.com/places/spain-portugal-italy-greece-and-balkans/romanian-political-geography/vlachshttps://djaunter.com/bulgarian-wedding-traditions-part-1/https://books.google.it/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ivanko+vlach+kill&source=bl&ots=9hUZQCx1vn&sig=i8dNAoJ5cZeUN09ackTjjeJc6Vc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8zK_8yoHUAhUJtxQKHahJBmwQ6AEIJzAB#v=on epage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20kill&f=falsehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanko_of_Bulgariahttps://books.google.it/books?id=tMjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=ivanko+vlach+lamb&source=bl&ots=Aq8-zm1Xu7&sig=lMP4TdJKoSrAbPpw8lYKXynvAg0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnga2Oy4HUAhUE6RQKHcj-DUwQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20lamb&f=falseEDIT YOU STUPID PENGUINS ,FIX MY POSTS....NOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!http://www.tuomatrimonio.eu/tradizioni-dal-mondo/il-matrimonio-in-calabria-uno-sguardo-alla-tradizionehttps://www.tentazionedonna.it/paese-che-vai-matrimonio-che-trovi-sposarsi-in-calabria/http://www.encyclopedia.com/places/spain-portugal-italy-greece-and-balkans/romanian-political-geography/vlachshttps://djaunter.com/bulgarian-wedding-traditions-part-1/https://www.tentazionedonna.it/paese-che-vai-matrimonio-che-trovi-sposarsi-in-calabria/http://www.encyclopedia.com/places/spain-portugal-italy-greece-and-balkans/romanian-political-geography/vlachshttps://djaunter.com/bulgarian-wedding-traditions-part-1/https://djaunter.com/bulgarian-wedding-traditions-part-1/https://books.google.it/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ivanko+vlach+kill&source=bl&ots=9hUZQCx1vn&sig=i8dNAoJ5cZeUN09ackTjjeJc6Vc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8zK_8yoHUAhUJtxQKHahJBmwQ6AEIJzAB#v=on epage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20kill&f=falsehttps://books.google.it/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ivanko+vlach+kill&source=bl&ots=9hUZQCx1vn&sig=i8dNAoJ5cZeUN09ackTjjeJc6Vc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8zK_8yoHUAhUJtxQKHahJBmwQ6AEIJzAB#v=on epage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20kill&f=falsehttps://books.google.it/books?id=tMjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=ivanko+vlach+lamb&source=bl&ots=Aq8-zm1Xu7&sig=lMP4TdJKoSrAbPpw8lYKXynvAg0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnga2Oy4HUAhUE6RQKHcj-DUwQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20lamb&f=falseEDIT VA IA MAMA DRACU DE LICURICI SPURCATI

Diurpaneus
21-05-17, 21:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njd4wKuAo5khttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De63RICDLO8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De63RICDLO8

Diurpaneus
22-05-17, 08:22
Marriages controlled by the couple"s families were something common until recently,surely not only for the South Italian, Romanian/Aromanian and Bulgarian people.However,we see this obsession of the South Italian and Romanian/Aromanian people to preserve or more often,to try to raise their social status,this competition starts identically in both cases,when the dowry starts to be prepared soon after the child is born,being defended like the richest stronghold,the Romanian youngster will always marry the richer girl,surely not his lover, and the rural novel Ion has full coverage here.My grandfather from Baragan has done the same and he and his mates had a saying for this:'De la mine a treia casaMa insurai si luai nevastaO luai cu patru boiS-o turma mare de oiBoii tragOile imi placDar cu toanta ce-am sa fac?'"From my place to the third houseI got married and got a spouseI took her with 4 bullsAnd a large flockThe bulls pullThe sheeps I like the mostBut the silly girlI haven,t yet lost"Another common thing for both the Romanians and the Aromanians is this temptation,urge,to break the rules,in the Aromanian documentary Carvanea Armaneasca the couple escapes from the community party,but the man has certain doubts,"Your folks will gonna break my bones!",in the Romanian rural novels like Ion and Morometii or the documentary film Aluna of the Serbian Vlach people we see the typical Romanian scene ,where the man expects the girl or woman in an isolated portion of the road to approach her,the sweet little female won\t get borred,that,s for sure(because the methods are...well,at least complicated).That's why these episodes with Ivancu or Ivanko look tipically Romanian/Vlach.IVANCU,RAISING THE STAKES:https://books.google.it/books?id=tMjRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=ivanko+vlach+lamb&source=bl&ots=Aq8-Ag61x4&sig=gDILFwn2a_eSWuZs9M5Iq4o_KDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji_cKL9YLUAhWDI1AKHZh-BE0Q6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20lamb&f=falseIvanko (Bulgarian: Иванко) killed Ivan Asen I, ruler of the renascent Second Bulgarian Empire, in 1196. The murder occurred when Asen angrily summoned Ivanko to discipline him for having an affair with his wife's sister.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanko_of_Bulgariahttps://books.google.it/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ivanko+vlach+sister&source=bl&ots=9hUZRwD7tn&sig=oDIFpYnB-Ga_bl-CUXQciKtrjbs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz-su_-ILUAhVJI1AKHdRnA2MQ6AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=ivanko%20vlach%20sister&f=falseThe Aromanian song Treili Inveasti posted on Romanian music speaks of these kind of events.

Alexandru www
24-05-17, 15:28
From Alexandru


Oscan features in Romanian and Southern Italian


Latin o>>>>>>Oscan, S. Italian,Romanian u


Oscan vocabulary


nú – novius – new [IE *newo- ‘new’]


pru – pro – for, instead of
prúfatted – probavit – he has shown, proven


púst – post – after
pústiris – posterius – posterior
pustmas – postumae
putíans – possint – they would be able
púuttram – pontem – a bridge (acc.sg.)




Italian Napoli,Napoletano Napule


"Variation between o and u (only in the Latin alphabet,
of course, since the native alphabet has no o), mostly in the case of original"(A Grammar of Oscan and Umbrian)


Romanian o-u variation


Transylvanian durmi,Aromanian durniri,Durmitor,a mountain from Montenegro,Wallachian,Moldavian dormi
Wallachian ruman,Moldavian,Transylvanian(Palia de la Orastie) roman





"For example, pjéskje ("rocks" or "stones") is related to Oscan *psk."(Molise language)


Romanian pisc,Etymology Uncertain,peak, summit (of a hill or mountain)






Latin q>>>>>>Oscan,Romanian p




R.apă 'water' (cf. Latin aqua)


patru 'four' (cf. Latin quattor)


iapă, 'horse' (cf. Latin equa)


păresimi, 'Lent' (cf. Latin quadragesima)




O,


four: petora
water: aapa






Diphtong au,preserved in S Italian and Romanian,possibly under the influence of the
Oscan substratum.


"10th cent. From Latin aut 'id.' From either *aut-i 'id.' in Proto-Italic.
From Proto-Indo-European *h2eu̯ "away."
Romance: Western Vulgar Latin: Asturian o, Portuguese ou, Galician ou, Catalan o, French ou, Italian o ;
Eastern Vulgar Latin: Romanian au,Italic: Oscan aut "or," Umbrian ute 'id.'"




Oscan-Latin
aut – at – and, also
censaum – censere – to estimate, to evaluate
moltaum – multare – to increase, to multiply

The loss of au in Albanian


Latin aurum,Albanian ar
Latin taurum,Albanian tar




Betacism in Oscan and Romanian


Oscan vocabulary


bivus (nom.pl.) – vivus – alive [IE *gwei- ‘to live’]
cúmbened – convenit – he came together


Romanian


Latin vervex,Romanian berbec,ram
L veteranus,R batran
L alveus,R albie



Latin e>>>>>>Oscan,S Italian,Moldavian,Aromanian i




"OSCAN. 1. Before another vowel, e becomes an open i and is invariably denoted by an i-cliaracter (i in the native
alphabet, earlier i"(A Grammar of Oscan and Umbrian)


"Among the commonest variations
are the following :
1. Variation between e and i. In the great majority of instances this occurs where the sound lies
between e and i, or, more correctly, between the extremes of an open e and a close i ;
that is, it is either the open i from original short i (45), or the, close e from original e
(42) or from oi in final syllables
(67, 2). The spelling e is relatively more frequent in the native than in the Latin alphabet.
The use of e for closed I from original I, or, vice versa, of i for the open e from original short e,
or for open e from original ai or ei, is rare. The variation between e and i corresponds then in general
to the Oscan use of f"

Alexandru www
24-05-17, 15:32
[QUOTE=Alexandru www;509428]
Schwa,the most important vowel in Romanian and S Italian








"Graficamente, in italiano (o in latino) non c’è un segno per questa importantissima sesta vocale,
più usata di ogni altra, nel nostro dialetto: lo schwa. Il nome deriva dall’alfabeto ebraico ed
indica un suono (non una vocale vera e propria) indefinito tra la /a/ e la /e/, o addirittura una
sorta di piccolo stop tra le sillabe. Si scrive, di solito, così ‘ ə ‘, oppure anche con la più comune ‘ë’,
come in albanese ed in arbëreshë (la lingua di Greci, il paesino di mia madre).
Nessun altro dialetto italico ne fa un uso così massiccio, come il napoletano.
Man mano che ci si sposta verso est, in Irpinia lo schwa può trasformarsi in ‘ i ‘ o ‘e’
(se interconsonantico) ovvero in ‘o’ ed ‘a’ (dipende dal genere) se a fine parola.
Infatti, di pàtətə abbiamo anche le versioni ‘pàtito’ e ‘pàrito’, di ‘màmmətə’,
abbiamo ‘màmmita’ o ‘màmmeta’. Gli esempi sono innumerevoli.
Prendete il celeberrimo verso del poeta-condomino del Professor Bellavista.
“ ‘A libbərtà… purə ‘o pappəvəllə, l’addə pruvà!”
Ci sono più schwa che ‘a’.


La linguistica è una materia stupenda. Un orecchio attento, sa riconoscere le varianze
dialettali della nostra terra attraverso il fluttuare dello schwa nelle parole.
Come si può immediatamente intuire, non solo non è una vocale dal suono definito,
ma non può assolutamente stare da sola: ha necessariamente bisogno di una consonante
che la protegga, che ne agevoli la sopravvivenza. Lo schwa sembra un cucciolo,
una mascotte e un jolly. Amo, dunque, lo schwa."(Schwa ,mon amour)






MCK>


"Where does the Romanian "ă"(schwa) come f"


"Just curious. It certainly did not come from Latin since there are no other romance languages
that have this vowel(as far as I know).So it's either inherited from the thracians,or borrowed
from Slavic.What do you think? And how does it sound to you? Strange,...ugly,interesting?"

EDIT

"The most striking phonological difference is the Neapolitan weakening
of unstressed vowels into schwa (schwa is pronounced like the a in about or the u in upon)."(Neapolitan language)


Latin a,e>>>>>>Romanian schwa

Alexandru www
24-05-17, 15:34
[QUOTE=Alexandru www;509429]


The extensive use of Latin familia in Romanian,Aromanian and Albanian


Old Romanian famEAie,Aromanian fumEAlji,from a Latin root famEl**,Albanian familje(family) and femije(child),
literary Romanian femeie,Romanian dialectal fomeie,fumeie,femie,fimeie.
In Old Romanian it meant family too,now it only means woman,while the Aromanian senses are familiy and child.




"FAMI´LIA in Old Latin famelia, in Oscan famelo, in Umbrian famedia, is probably in its original
sense a body of persons belonging to a house, a household (Osc. faa-ma =house, Sanskr. dhâ = to settle,
dhâman = settlement). The etymology of Festus (s. v. famuli), deriving familia from the Oscan famel,
meaning “a slave,” is now commonly rejected;"






"Original meaning — ‘house full of slaves’
In Latin, familia began as a collective noun meaning ‘all the slaves belonging to one master’ based on a common Latin
word for slave-servant, famulus.
The Romans appear to have borrowed the word from their Italian neighbours, one race of whom were the Osci. By 350
BCE Rome had conquered the Osci. The Oscan word for ‘slaves of the household’ was famelo, while Oscan for household
slave was famel.
A little later in Latin, familia came to mean all the people over whom the paterfamilias (Latin ‘head of the household’)
held sway. That included his wife, his sons and his daughters. So even in Latin familia sometimes meant ‘members of
one’s immediate family,’ and sometimes the extended circle of one’s blood relatives out to second and third cousins"
("Thoughts on the Latin word familia ")



Latin nd>>>>>>>Oscan,S.Italian,Romanian nn,n


Oscan-Latin


úpsannam – operandam – working


Napoletano granne,Italian grande


Latin brandeum,Aromanian brîn, bărnu,Romanian brau,plural brane,traditional belt


Latin manduco,manducare,Italian manducare,Romanian manca,mancare(c=k),Aromanian mî(n)c, măc(u), mîncată, mîcare,
Megleno-Romanian m(ăn)ǫnc, măncari,Istro-Romanian mărăncu,other Romance versions,with dj/g,for Latin d.


Latin nd,preserved in other Romanian words,L intendere,R intinde,intindere


Oscan tEfúrúm – sacrificium – a victim,Romanian tEAfar(=unharmed,the diphtong ea comes in Romanian,many times, from Latin e,other times,
it comes from Latin ea,R. geaman,L geminus,R geamat,L gemitus,R geana,L genae)

Alexandru www
31-05-17, 11:34
Italian bocca,Neapolitan mmocca,Romanian moaca(face)
Latin porta,Romanian poarta


Neapolitan moccafava,Romanian mocofan,uomo credulone,
related to Romanian gura-casca(literally,yawning mouth),
gura-sparta (literally, broken mouth).






<Addurmirse cu ‘a zizza ‘mmocca
Ad litteram: Addormentarsi con la tetta in bocca >


Italian tetta,Neapolitan zizza,Romanian țîță(read tsîtsă)




< Barba, capille e ppalluccella ‘mmocca specialmente nell’espressione serví ‘e barba etc.
Ad litteram: barba, capelli e pallina in bocca specialmente >










Neapolitan banne,Romanian ban,money,coin,from Latin banda,bandum,I say




"e BANNË - s. m., pl. “i soldi, il danaro”; `o jammë è bbàchënë ncoppë e bbanë:
“il tizio non paga”; ‘e bbane: “il danaro”; bano: nu bbano: “un soldo”.
a BBANÈSIA – s. f. “il danaro”; `o jammë ra bbanèsia: “il tizio del danaro”.
nu BBANO- v. BANË."(l'antica parlesia napoletana...)


EDIT

"The bandon (Greek: βάνδον) was the basic military and territorial administrative unit of the middle Byzantine EmpireIts name, like the Latin bandus and bandum ("ensign, banner"), had a Germanic origin,compare Gothic bandwa sign".




"During the course of the 5th century, the Roman minting system collapsed.
The western half of the Roman Empire was overrun by Germanic tribes,
although some mints remained active in the West under the new barbarian rulers
and continued to mint coins, including high-quality gold solidi, in the name
of the eastern emperors, most notably in Ostrogothic Italy and Burgundy"(Byzantine mints)".




"With the death of Attila the Hun (450 CE) the Ostrogoths declared their independence.
In 474 CE, Theodoric (known as Theodoric the Great) became king of the Ostrogoths and,
backed by the Byzantine Empire, led a campaign into Italy. The Byzantine Empire (formerly
the Eastern Roman Empire) hoped for a return of the glory of Rome and Theodoric, it was thought
, could accomplish this by re-claiming the kingdom from the Germanic King of Italy, Odoacer,
who had taken it from the last Roman emperor. Theodoric defeated Odoacer, pretended to offer
terms of peace, and then killed him, establishing, in 493 CE, the Ostrogothic Empire which
stretched from Sicily, through Italy, to France and parts of modern-day Spain.
Under Theodoric, the empire flourished and Roman art, literature, and culture were embraced.
Although his campaign had been funded by the Byzantines, Theodoric ruled his empire independently
and maintained friendly relations with the empire to the east.
His daughter, and successor, Amalasvintha, ruled first as regent, in 526 CE and in 534 CE became
queen at the death of her son Athalaric. She was assassinated by her cousin Theodahad, who claimed
to be the rightful heir to the throne."
Her death sparked the wrath of Justinian I, Emperor of the Byzantine Empire, who claimed Theodahad a usurper.
He sent the famous general Flavius Belisarius on campaign to Italy to bring the region back into line with the empire"(Ostrogoth)



EDIT

Latin bandum had several meanings,IMO, the closest to the one of "money-coin" is that of "ensign".As mercenaries,those Germanic tribes knew under which banner they fought by the face of the Roman emperor from the coin,while in the scarcity of those periods even the native Roman soldiers were paid in products,mostly grains/food.
Later,they were involved in large-scale minting,making of a big part of the whole process a "Germanic problem".





" Medieval Latin bandum, bannum (“order, decree, ban”) "
" Latin bandum, “a band or flag"
"bandum (bandon, Latin bandum). Originally a battle standard, later a troop of 200 men fighting under such a..."

QUITE A BIG EDIT

Linguistic evidence for the movement of the Latin-speaking lowlanders into the highlands
-the lowlanders have adapted to a Romanian/Latin phonology the Paleo-Balkanic terms,except for mal,which in Romanian means "shore,bank",while in Albanian,mountain.
Latin L is preserved in Albanian,but it switches to R in South italian and Romanian,the so-called substratum follows this trend.
Substratum words
Albanian modhull,Romanian mazare
Albanian brushtull,Romanian brusture
Albanian mugull,Romanian mugur
Albanian thumbull,Romanian sambure


Latin words


Latin masculus,Albanian mashkull(man,male),Romanian mascur(pig,hog,boar)
Latin angelus,Albanian engjell,Romanian inger
Latin mola ,Albanian mulli,Romanian moara
"In Latin loanwords, intervocalic
I appears as Alb II (popull, ulli, menjolle). Otherwise it gives I
(larg, leti, plage). Geminated Lat II is reflected as I (pule, gjel, bule)."(Orel,Albanian Etymological Dictionary)
L>>>>R shifts in Romanian and Southern Italian
Calabrese sordi,Italian soldi
Calabrese purviri,Italian polvere
Calabrese pruppa,Italian polpa
Calabrese furminari,Italian fulminare
Calabrese curtejju,Italian coltello
Puglian acierre,Italian uccello
Napoletano barcunata,Italian balcone
Napoletano purpo,italian polipo
Napoletano sardo,Italian saldo
Latin felicitas,Romanian fericire
etc.


Romanian cutreiera( to wander,to scour) comes from Latin contribulare,con plus tribulare,
is the semantic shift that provide enough evidence for the movements into higher places ,treiera,from L. tribulare, means "to thersh".IMO,the expression "a cutreiera in lung si-n lat"
("to wander in long and wide") proves that the Proto-Romanians knew the initial sense of contribulare.




<In the process of Romanization, the sense of a number of Latin words not pertaining to the life of shepherds was changed by the ancestors of the Rumanians to denote shepherding terms, obviously an indication of the main occupation of this people:


meridies ,midday, middle day ,meriză,the place where the cattle rest at midday’
animalia ,animals,nămaie,small cattle’
coccineus ,scarlet red,coasin ,(dialectal):’sheep with reddish spots on its head’
turma ,unit of the Roman cavalry; 30 men; (fig.): group ,turmă,flock’
*stimular(ia) (stimulus) ,pointed stake’ (used in battles) ,strămurare,goad
minor ,to rise, to menace,mâna,to drive, urge on; to carry, push, goad’
Remarks: turmă is an example of a word with a special sense (military) being used in a different special sense (shepherd). Latin stimulus had a similar, but broader sense: pointed stake used in battle; and driving stake, with an iron point, used to drive oxen; as well as figuratively ‘stimulus, irritation’.
Another Latin word, mixticius ‘mixed, crossed, hybrid’ may be added, probably => N. Rum. mistreţ ‘wild boar, (Sus scrofa)’; in French, Provençal, Spanish, and Portuguese with the original Latin sense (see Rosetti, A., Cazacu, B., & Coteanu, I. (red.), Istoria limbii române. [The History of the Rumanian Language], Vol. II, Edit. Acad. RSR, Bucharest, 1969 (Vol. I, 1965)., p. 150). Although this is not a specific shepherd term, it belongs to the life of shepherds.
(Eastern Romance)


Compared with the results,all the source-terms are rather theoretical,pointing to the typical Latin abstractions.



The continuation of that edit is even bigger.


"Insecure times called for construction of fortifications. Some of
these fortified sites were regional centres with military crews and a still
functioning ecclesiastical organization. Besides these, the imperial
authorities strived to build smaller fortifications on important strategic
points along the roads, so as to defend and oversee the communication and
supply systems. These fortified sites also served as refuge centres that
provided safe haven to the populations fleeing the endangered lowland
settlements. Parallel to the construction of these fortifications, smaller
ones were built by rural communities, to provide them with safer
positions. Although their positions changed by moving into locations on
higher altitudes, they carried on with their economic activities on earlier
agricultural fields with a shift towards pastoralism.These measures created a new defensive system, born out of necessity and reflecting how weak the Empire had become. The aim was to reduce the influx of refugees that sought shelters in the south, since the refuges were built in every part of the Empire; but also put to a heavy test the barbarians’ ability to lay siege and to maintain their supply chain"(The World of the Slavs)


"There is in fact enough Latin agricultural vocabulary in Romanian -words for sowing, ploughing, harrowing, and so on - to show that they were farming in Roman times. [69] The shift towards pastoralism was probably quite gradual. One particular factor that may have helped to promote it was the practice of horse-breeding, which was, or at least became, a Vlach speciality: the medieval records are full of Vlach muleteers and Vlachs leading caravans of pack-horses"(Noel Malcom)


"One of the significant elements of the economic life
of an ancient society were market days/village fairs
(nundinae), which had a significant role in supplying
both the urban and rural population.41 In urban areas,
periodical market days were held where the townspeople
could buy produce. The residents of nearby villages
sold their goods there and thus obtained much needed
money for rent or taxes, as well as for buying required
goods or services.42 The Theodosian Codex points to the
importance of selling produce by stating that peasants
were freed from paying lustral tax if they sold produce
from their own farms.43 Products bought for farming
were exempt from the same taxes.44 These regulations
clearly demonstrate the importance of sustaining agricultural
production on both, large and small estates.
The decrees of Emperor Justinian I also stated this view.
In Novella XXXII, addressed to Dominicius, the praetorian
prefect of Illyricum, a series of decrees were
passed to guard against the greed of creditors who took
pawned land from peasants who were unable to repay,
due to poor harvests, the loan of crop seeds.45 In certain
areas itinerant traders also had a significant role.
At Caricin Grad, a large number of artisans, such
as potters, blacksmiths, goldsmiths, glaziers and others
were testified to, clearly indicating that it was a regional
centre which supplied both the local area and those
further afield. The very concept of a newly built centre
with wide streets and porticos points to the fact that the
city was planned as an administrative and trade centre.
(Fig.3) An indication of the lively local and regional
trade is the presence of camels and mules at Caricin
Grad,48 which were particularly used in the 6th century
for transporting goods."
"The 8-day nundinal cycle also seems to have been observed elsewhere in Italy, particularly Campania, as attested in stone calendars and graffiti, as at Pompeii.[85] There are records from the imperial period of towns and villas petitioning for the right to hold such markets (ius nundinarum).[86] Such a right seems to have been universally granted to the capitals of Italy's prefectures (praefecturae) but also extended to some smaller localities where markets were necessary for local trade.[87] These local fairs used the same calendrical system as Rome's, marking out the days of the year into cycles from A to H, but each town or village in an area typically used a separate day, permitting itinerant traders (circumforanei) to attend each in turn."(Nundinae)
"According to Frayn, we may speak of a
« central place » wherever a large town functions as a market centre for a
number of smaller settlements (both smaller towns and villages) in a
surrounding plain. Thus Capua was the « central place » of North Campania
because it was a market centre for the rural population of the area (Cic, Leg.
Agr. 2.88-89), while Noia performed a similar function for the population of the
South Campanian plain."(Markets and Fairs in Roman Italy)


"La straordinaria fertilità della Campania antica, famosa soprattutto per il grano
e il vino, consentiva di sostenere un’articolata rete di città, che trovavano nell’enorme
mercato di Roma lo sbocco principale per le loro eccedenze produttive,
alimentando intense relazioni commerciali, episodicamente attestate dai ritrovamenti
archeologici, ma ricostruibili nei loro meccanismi fondamentali grazie
alla documentazione epigrafica (indices nundinarii) relativa alle nundinae,
mercati periodici di ciclo breve, che si tenevano ogni 7 o 8 giorni in alcune delle
città più importanti della Regio "(TRA LAZIO E CAMPANIA: REGIO I AUGUSTEAE PROBLEMATICHE ODIERNE DI RIPARTIZIONE TERRITORIALE)




"The economic activities of some castella were connected
to agriculture, which particularly applies to those
fortifications situated along the plains and valleys.
This is indicated by the names of castella in some areas
which, according to M. Mirkovi}, bear the names of
former landowners: Tim/ana – Timiana, OÙrbr/ana –
Urbriana, Kassia – Cassia








In the region of the Leskovac basin there were also
villages in the river valleys, evident by the rare finds of
Early Byzantine coins in Re~ica, Turjane, Rafuna
(Crkvena Livada site), Lipovica, Ora{ac (Padina site)
and Rujkovac (Vaskina Porta). These are coin finds
which can be dated to the period of the reigns of Justin
I and Justinian I. What is particularly indicative are the
finds of a solidus of Justin I in Re~ica and a tremissis
of Justinian I in Turjane.32 The cessation of coin circu-
lation in the second half of the 6th century in lowland
parts of the basin points to the fact that the population,
by and large, abandoned the valleys and retreated to
hilltop fortifications. This corresponds with the intensified
building of structures within the empty areas of
the city and porticos at Caricin Grad."
"Towards the end of the 4th century, as a result of
the barbarian invasions and their subsequent settling of
the region of northern Illyricum, significant socio-economic
turmoil started to occur, which was particularly
reflected in the changing roles of the settlements. Roman
lowland settlements gave way to new fortified settlements
on the dominant and well-guarded higher grounds
above the river valleys or in the mountainous regions."
"The anthropogeographic features of the area, the
economic resources in particular, played a significant
role in the settlement of the Leskovac basin. Most of
all, the river valleys stand out, the South Morava in particular,
as well as the Veternica, Jablanica, Pusta Reka
and Toplica, as being suitable for agricultural production
and wheat cultivation. It is worth remembering that
annona represented the foundation of the economy for
urban and rural populations.7 On the other hand, the
foot hills on the margins of the Leskovac basin were
suited to cattle breeding. Viticulture was also present as
one of the most important cultures of that time, judging
by the finds of stone winepresses from Vrbovac,8 in
the vicinity of Caricin Grad and grape seeds at Caricin
Grad. It is quite certain that in this area, as indicated by
the numerous remains of different kinds of grain and
fruit at Cari~in Grad, other agricultural produce was also
grown."(Late Roman Fortifications in the Leskovac Basin
in Relation to Urban Centers)

Alexandru www
04-06-17, 20:20
Diphtongs,mostly

Italian e,South Italian ie,Latin e,Romanian ie


Lucanian pariende,Italian parente
Lucanian tiempe,Italian tempo
Puglian fierru,Italian ferro,Romanian fier
Puglian cientu,Italian cento
Lucanian cerviedd,Italian cervello
Calabrian nsiettu,Italian insetto
Calabrian giergu,italian gergo
Calabrian tiella,Italian teglia
Naploletan miereco,Italian medico
Napoletan miezzo,Italian mezzo,Romanian miez
Napoletan auciello,Italian uccello
Latin perire,Romanian pieri
Latin pectus,Romanian piept
Latin felem,Romanian fiere

EA

Napoletan currea,Romanian curea,Latin corrigia,belt

From Treppecore and Pulcinella
Abruzzese plaje,nudi pianori montani,Romanian plai,plateau.related to playa and so on
A. nemale,I animale,R namaie(cattle)
A carria, I trasportare,R cara,Latin carrare,from carrus,R carare=path,car-cart
A avemo,R avem,I abbiamo,we have
A ammistricari(to mix),R mistret(boar)


EDIT


The maritime route Brindisium-Dyrrachium was well-known,used ,for instance, by the Via Egnatia.Wikipedia\s Roman Roads map gives two main ways to Brindisium,from Rome,through Campania,and along the eastern coast,from,let's say,Abruzzo,while from Dyrrachium you could have gone either Constantinople,through Via Egnatia,or Lissus-Naissus-Danube.










"Pescara's first indicators of settlement date to 1500 BCE, but it is unknown which tribe first settled in the city.[2] It was conquered by the Romans in 214 BCE and remained "Aternum" after the city allied itself with Punic Carthaginian military commander Hannibal. The Romans developed the city and it became an important location for shipping and trade occurring between the Balkans and Rome; the Romans made the city of Pescara the capital of the Valeria region"(Province of Pescara)


"The importance of Pescara in the territory in which it is located, is measured in the strategic role that thecity has taken in economic and social relations with the neighboring territories. In particular: the relationship with the other cities of Abruzzo region, the relationship with Rome, the role in the Adriatic director, and the relationship with the Balkan side of the Adriatic."(Pescara partner profile)
"Aternum was a Roman town, on the site of Pescara, in Italy. Some historians refer to Aternum with the name of Ostia Aterni: in fact, the town was built at the mouth of the river Aternus. Aternum had an important role in Italian transport and it was connected to Rome through the Via Tiburtina, and its extension the Via Valeria. The city was an important port for trade with the Eastern provinces of the Empire; the seaport was supposedly also used for military purposes"



EDIT
Those ancient Abruzzese merchants didn\t stop at the Albanian shore,because a large part of the Roman army was expecting them at the Danube frontier.
Maybe these people were involved in certain seamantic shifts that took place in Romanian,
murg(red/dark-brown horse) and amurg*(dusk,twilight),from Latin amurca,I would say.

amurca f (genitive amurcae); first declension
The watery part that flows out in pressing olives
The lees or dregs of oil
Aragonese: morca
English: amurca
Italian: morchia
Portuguese: amurca
Spanish: amurca, morga, murga
"wo and a half million olive trees, more than a thousand farms, two thousands years of experience in the production of high quality olive oil: this is Sabina.
Our olive groves stretch over more than one thousand square kilometres of hilly countryside, from the heart of Central Italy to Rome, across oak forests, historical abbeys and medieval villages.
The vocation of Sabina for olive oil production is rooted not only in ancient traditions, but also in solid paedoclimatic conditions: clay and limestone soil, prevalence of southern exposure, altitudes ranging from 200 to 500 metres above sea level, a temperate Mediterranean climate, characterised by the absence of temperature peaks and drought limited to the summer period.
In this ideal habitat, the hands of man have selected a wide range of olive varieties, a valuable resource of biodiversity, that the product specification of Sabina PDO identifies as a key feature in the characterization of our olive oil."(Olio Extra Vergine Di Oliva.Sabina Dop)






"Museum of Olive Oil in Abruzzo – how is extra virgin olive oil made?
The “Museo dell’Olio” (Museum of Olive Oil) in Bucchianico (Chieti), which I visited recently, it is quite a unique and interesting place whether you are new to Abruzzo, a local or a seasoned Abruzzo lover.
I absolutely loved it, and not just because it was created and it is run by my dear friends at natural farm and winery Cantinarte. I genuinely think it’s a great place to visit, for tourists and locals alike, and why not, with classrooms and in study trips. Discovering the traditional, artisanal way of making olive oil will not just give you theoretical knowledge (and extra conversation points at dinner parties) but will also help you when it comes to buy olive oil for your consumption."


"The aim of the Olive Oil Museum is is to celebrate one of our region’s food treasures – Abruzzo olive oil – and to preserve the memory of traditional oil making tecniques. In fact, the Museum holds a precious relic of the bygone era when olive oil was made entirely by hand and without any electrical power involved: a giant wooden press from the XVIII sentury, used to extract the oil from the olive paste."

Alexandru www
04-06-17, 20:24
However,the exclusive Romanian-Albanian shifts that took place within Latin originated along the Danube.The following change ,Latin paludem(swamp),Romanian padure/Albanian pyll(forest), occurred in this area,probably along the Sirmium-Singidunum-Viminacium line.








"Matasović lists some developments in Albanian that are readily familiar to Romanian speakers. Lexically there is, for example, the borrowing of Latin paludem ‘swamp’ with metathesis and shift to the meaning ‘forest’: Albanian pyll < *padule, Romanian pădure.
Should the Proto-Albanian Urheimat be located in Vojvodina or Slavonia instead, with southern Serbia as only a later point of Albanian expansion?"(Romanian-Albanian parallels and the location of the Proto-Albanian Urheimat)


"A reference to their early history lies in the poetic inscription of a grave in Lãžen (see above), part of which reads: Ipso immargebam caro florente marito in quartum decimumque annum ... 'I died at the age of 14, in the flowering of my precious manhood'. The meaning of the Latin mergo is "I sink," while in-mergo could be translated as "I dip, I dive". Yet, C. Daicoviciu is right in translating the text as "Mergeam în (pe) anul al 14-lea"*, i.e., "I departed at the age of 14." In this case we can pinpoint the locale of the change from
Lat. mergo "I sink > Dr. merge "goes, departs", Alb. mërgonj "I remove". The finding was made along the river Asamus, today Osãm, Southwest of Novae (Svištov) in Moesia Inferior. The process which led to the formation of the Rumanian language may have begun here. Indications of this process may be seen not only in the change of meaning in mergo; in immargebam the a in place of e may be an error but, more likely, it points to a very early a > ã** alteration (Alb. mërgonj). "(Gabor Vekony)


* Actually, the expression can also be typically translated "I was going on/towards my 14th year",
"a merge pe"="to go on(on=towards)(a year/age)
**in Romanian,a,e,i,o from Latin shifts to ã,some dialects have a form mãrg.
L capistrum,R cãpãstru,Lcontra ,R cãtrã
"Similarly to the Greek belief, the Romans would leave coins on the tombstones of their soldiers who died in combat.
According to an ancient Greek myth, souls of the deceased needed to pay Charon the ferryman a toll to cross over the underworld river Styx and then enter the afterlife. For that to happen, they would put coins in the mouths of the deceased.
"(The Origins Of Leaving Coins on Soldiers' Tombstones)






With that many people sinking in the Danube marshes,the Romans from these parts have realized that in Rome and Constantinople people party alot ,on their efforts,it appears that many of the soldiers were connected somehow to South Italy,so they became extremely jealous.
The local chiefs/commanders have understood that a big part of the Roman army was sitting next to them,the following step being autonomy-they didn't want to be Romans anymore,this term was suited for the peoples who spend alot of money on their backs,but "Dacians",Regalian was "Decebal's nephew",Galerius wanted to switch the name of the Empire into Dacian(=My Empire or The Empire of Where I Come From),leading Rome using thier own style,just like Sirmium's Valentinian,there were many emperors from those areas.




"Regalianus (260) was a Dacian, falsely pretended to be a descendant of Decebal"
"According to Lactantius, Galerius affirmed his Dacian identity and avowed himself the enemy of the Roman name once made emperor, even proposing that the empire should be called, not the Roman, but the Dacian Empire, much to the horror of the patricians and senators. He exhibited anti-Roman attitude as soon as he had attained the highest power, treating the Roman citizens with ruthless cruelty, like the conquerors treated the conquered, all in the name of the same treatment that the victorious Trajan had applied to the conquered Dacians, forefathers of Galerius, two centuries before."

Userius
04-07-17, 20:07
It's doubted that they are only one people. It's also extremely doubtful that they all sprang up from a small region of Albania, northern Greece, and FYROM. The total amounts of Vlach population is at least equal to all 3 of those countries put together.

It's likely that it does constitute a mix of Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, and (official) Macedonians who were Romanized and likely were similar in appearance and culture from long before then.

Most Vlachs do have those haplogroups but when it goes to the northernmost points in Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine that descend from Transylvanian Vlachs, haplogroup R1a, I2a, and E-V13 are very dominant, but the J2 from other Vlach groups is more rare.

Litovoi
17-12-17, 15:46
Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a
populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"




The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin.
In Romania it strongly resembles Dacia Traiana, while south of the Danube
it reminds of the Latin-speaking areas from the Balkans, during the Roman/Eastern Roman Empire.




*I'm sure that,if this set of genes is present in/near Novi Sad,there must be a further,
western,extension,which the map doesn't show it,into the traditional Serbian lands and beyond.


7888

7889

7890

7891


EDIT:


The Romanians have plenty more Balkanic genes,
but the study offers a few locations for comparison from south of
the Danube,Serbia has only two(Novi Sad and Kosovo),the
rest of the countries,only one each.

The first map represents the Proto-Wallachians,starting with Gustav Weigand ,the linguists have recognized their speech until,at least ,the Mures river,while the Transylvanians,who had initially dwelled in the northern parts,according to scholars,can be connected with second and third ones.

Litovoi
17-12-17, 16:29
Genetics offers not much of a help here,it was well -known that Early Wallachia had lands in Transylvania,like Tara Oltului,Amlas,Hateg and Severin-Banat,with the Mitropolia a Toata Ungro-Vlahia,which is the Bishopric of All Wallachia,extending into many parts of Ardeal.In The Wallachian speech we do have additionally Latin features like,for instance, the term ginere ,a husband,from generis,opposed to Northern Romanian mire, which is related to Albanian,the preterite ,preserved in the Wallachian core,and sounds that remained unchanged.If we take a look to our neighbors,south of the Danube,we understand why all these things took place.

Litovoi
17-12-17, 22:40
Since brigandage is very disscused these days,why don't we see in the Romanian-Vlach communities the so spreaded clan version,as in S. Italians,Albanians,Greeks,Slavs or Caucasians? I mean,we oftenly spoke of their personal conflicts and revenges,many times within the same family,community,even when they are acting as a "group", they are doing it spontaneously,only for their leader,plenty of records from the Dalmatian coast,Bulgarian Empire,Byzantine Empire,and their own folk epics,in this respect. Extreme scarcity in a very concurential environment,as a background,possibly backuped by some cultural triggers,similarly to Ver Sacrum,for instance.

Edit
The most likely reason for this change is the early Slavic pressure.

Litovoi
17-12-17, 23:30
During that Early Middle Ages,the Vlachs and Bulgarians,although very distinct,they all choosed to follow only the Kaloyan's lion.

Litovoi
20-12-17, 14:01
Let's just say that,as a Western Wallachian-based,you realize very quickly that Romanian wasn't a language spoken on narrow spaces.
It structurally shares the vowel system with certain dialects from Basilicata, the Picerno-Potenza-Castelmezzano area,these are conservative traits,in remote mountainous regions,which led to the conclusion that the entire South Italy went through a "Romanian" phase,since we are literally talking about a section of/near the Appian Way,Giuliano Bonfante spreads it through out whole Italy.
The road was particularly used by the Roman army to reach the Danube ,via Dyrrachium-Lissus,Ulpiana and Naissus,through the Drin and Morava valleys.

Litovoi
28-12-17, 12:14
Romanian and Albanian zana,a fairy,comes 100% from the Latin Diana,because the first also has zanatic,a lunatic,which is inherited from dianaticus,ultimately from The Goddess of the Moon(not Selene-Luna),the moon,just like its meaning
EDIT
Despite of her connection with the moon,Diana was a very lively girl,as the "virgin goddess of childbirth and women".
Further evidence that she was not melancholical,comes from the fact that "she swore never to marry", we definitely have the case when she plays the impossible one,stregthen by the fact that she loved independence,by being in the middle of the nature,hunting,living near wild animals.
What was the antidote?Her favourite,to become dianaticus.

Litovoi
28-12-17, 12:19
https://books.google.ro/books?id=m2pWOHEeVvsC&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=dianaticus&source=bl&ots=GMy4iLnny1&sig=KatXU_gUTL2o-s4a1nLFVWemWUM&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt3OHvu6zYAhXMZFAKHUAoDRgQ6AEIKzAE#v=on epage&q=dianaticus&f=false

Litovoi
28-12-17, 16:06
About the important role of the woman in the Vlach society clearly speaks this Romanian semantic change,femeie comes from Latin familia,which is the traditional view as household keepers.
Since the Romanians-Vlachs had a primarily pastoral and military character,women got more and more initiative back home,we do have,for instance, the legend of the Moldavian Vrancioaia,that leads her sons to gather an army for Steven the Great,which changes the faith of a battle against the Turks,women hajduks and heroesses are well known across Wallachia and Moldavia.
Nevertheless,the gender differences are well defined,these women were very feminine and,as the semantic change proves,proned to raise natality.
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl28_3.htm


http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/ancient-ivory-tablets-reveal-high-status-illyrian-women-002032


https://dc.edu.au/ancient-history-pompeii-herculaneum/

Litovoi
28-12-17, 17:11
We find similar terms to Romanian insura,to marry a woman,throughout the whole Southern Italy:
https://books.google.ro/books?id=sZUcDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=nzurar&source=bl&ots=w4HoAn7cV6&sig=bM_FXZP19McGqjlfTGJBbQnjTmo&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMo-XA_azYAhWMblAKHQqOCRkQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=nzurar&f=false
Another interesting thing in Pompeii is the occurrence of the word lucrum,profit,which in Romanian(lucru) switched its meaning,"to work".
It testifies both the strong links between the Balkans and Southern Italy, DURING THE ROMAN ERA,and the importance of the commercial activities in the Romanian society.
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin_Vulgar/Texts/Pompeii_Graffiti.html
https://sites.google.com/site/ad79eruption/pompeii/regio-vii/reg-vii-ins-1/house-of-siricus

mihaitzateo
29-12-17, 16:02
The origin of Vlachs from outside Romania can be actually Romania.
Roman Empire occupied a part of Dacia and in about 271 AD retired.
A part of the people from this province retired also,South of Danube.
Most Romanians which are bearing I2-din are bearing the North Variant of I2-din, I2-din North, which is similar to I2-din from Ukrainians,Poles,Russians etc.
Yugos are bearing I2-din South variant.
So, some genetic testing of Aromouns/Vlachs which came from South of Danube can show if they migrated from Romania south of Danube and returned back after, or if they originate in Balkanic peninsula.
http://i2aproject.blogspot.ro/2016/08/link-to-i-l621-tree-showing-major-str_22.html

Romanians have 4-5% I1, 1-2% I2b1,R1A 18% which are not found in Aromouns/Vlachs.
But these paternal lines very likely came with Slavs and East Germanics,so, there is a possibility that Aromouns came from Romania South of Danube in about 271 AD.

Litovoi
30-12-17, 17:36
Some of the last links can appear as disrespectful towards the Greek people.
It can't be the case, since Greeks were people, with alot of important background,they were brave,intelligent,etc.,many,probably more than 300.
In the 6th c.AD,they thought they have a chance in the Latin parts of Illyricum,but the prefect of Constantinople ,Ioannes,complained that "the inhabitants of the Balkan provinces spoke Romanian and did not understand Greek".
http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/dunay/dunay02.htm
Justinian's uncle,Justin I, was a Latin speaker,he barley understood few Greek words.
In Illyricum we have the center called Justiniana Prima,for the Latin speakers,and Thessaloniki,for Greek people.

Litovoi
31-12-17, 06:57
https://books.google.ro/books?id=sE-N3v0IoXcC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=castelmezzano+dialect+romanian&source=bl&ots=vxdp18QwjD&sig=p9Rjk8UVxa4WS2bkPbttTLWh9no&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT0smVu7PYAhXOEVAKHbUfDf8Q6AEILDAD#v=on epage&q=castelmezzano%20dialect%20romanian&f=false
https://books.google.ro/books?id=L3p9DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=middle+lausberg+romanian&source=bl&ots=L4ihZ510G5&sig=zt-JaXj4i0VLK7EcKgOLdnHhNiA&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv08TLu7PYAhUHbFAKHQ9xAgEQ6AEIKDAB#v=on epage&q=middle%20lausberg%20romanian&f=false

EDIT

A very good study of our friend,Mr. Keith Massey:

http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

Litovoi
06-01-18, 11:36
Let's discuss a bit about some interesting placenames from the Procopius' list that are labelled Italian or Italic,like,for instance,Braeola,which is recorded twice in the Aquae-Timachum area.
We have Monte Braiola in Central Italy,but what makes things even more interesting is the existence of a surrounding area called Padule di Braiola.
The geography of those regions is consistently formed by some swamp-forests who strikingly resemble the landscape along the Lower Danube,while the places are called the same ,padule.
This term is directly related to Romanian padure(the rhotacized form of padule),who, not only that changes,thorough metathesis,but also receives a new meaning,after all,Latin paludem meant swamp;so we have this clear connection between swamps and forests,people didn't recognized the patterns anymore,they didn't know how to call them.
In the Danube frontier,the forest-swamps were very used by the soldiers in ambushing,defending or regrouping,since in the swamps-swamps was not that much of a activity,with no Rambo around,which definitely explains the whole situation.
These two Braeola are grouped with Septecasae,Seven Houses,surely a Romanian term,Wallachian dialectal septe,7,and Florentiana,a placename that still survives(along with others, like Augusta-Ogosta,Almus-Lom,Timachus-Timok ,Archar-Ratiaria,Alexandru Madgearu says),it is the Bulgarian village Florentin.
These Italian-Romanian connections are indeed close,but what about the geography,can we still involve the Adriatic here?

https://books.google.ro/books?id=3J96wSxMaeYC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=procopius+italian+ring+braiola&source=bl&ots=q-tBf98XA6&sig=PC3_W2PFfUIjeaQ93o5OfUZGoFI&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi657jspcPYAhUBIVAKHaQRDXMQ6AEIJTAA#v=on epage&q=procopius%20italian%20ring%20braiola&f=false

https://montiliguri.weebly.com/monte-braiola.html

https://www.christopherculver.com/languages/romanian-albanian-parallels-location-proto-albanian-urheimat.html

http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/631/florentiana_fortress.htm

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Procopius/Buildings/4B*.html

Zanatis
06-01-18, 11:51
It's crazy how much Albanians and Romanians have in common and it's obvious that the 2 peoples lived in such close proximity but later got more and more apart as both lost territories and part of their people to Slavic assimilation.

Litovoi
06-01-18, 14:18
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/padule


https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padule

https://www.wwf.it/oasi/toscana/padule_di_bolgheri/

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padule_di_Fucecchio



https://hiveminer.com/Tags/serbia,swamp

Bachus
06-01-18, 15:23
It's crazy how much Albanians and Romanians have in common and it's obvious that the 2 peoples lived in such close proximity but later got more and more apart as both lost territories and part of their people to Slavic assimilation.

Latin speaking ancestors of Romanians came to modern Romania from Bulgaria and southern Balkans in period from 12th to 14th century.
Before 12th century there was no Latin speaking people in territory of modern Romania, in present day Romania in middle age majoriry of populations were Slavs, but also Hungarians, Avars Saxons, Cumans, Tatars and Pechenegs were present.

Latin speakers who came to Wallachian plain from areas south of Danube in 12-14th century were assimilated local Slavs, and from that mix was created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
Modern Romanians have around 45% Slavic Y DNA (I2a 27%, R1a 18%), real Vlach haplogroups are eastern R1b, J2b and E-V13.
The purest Vlachs are Vlachs from southern Balkans (Aromanians), they have much less Slavic influence than Romanians which has heavy Slavic influence.

Romanian language until mid of 19th century was more Slavic than Latin, even today there is around 20% Slavic words in Romanian language.

There is a hundreds of Slavic toponyms in Romania today, and in the past even more.

Litovoi
06-01-18, 20:15
A minor car crash from Western Wallachia:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=17s&v=99qkL0kH9kc

Litovoi
06-01-18, 21:13
Have you seen the man with the white shirt,this is how we walk.
We are talking here about native, advanced,leadership and management,many times performed in very difficult,fast, situations.
My ancestors stood firm along the Danube frontier,while Rome and Constantinople had a very different type of planning.

Litovoi
07-01-18, 09:28
Romanian gaura,a hole,from Latin cavola,can be connected to Mons Gaurus,Monte Gauro,a volcanic mountain with caldera.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monte_Gauro_-_la_caldera_occupata_dal_"Carney_Park"_-_Pozzuoli_(NA)_-_2000.jpg



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Gaurus


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Barbaro

Litovoi
07-01-18, 09:38
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fiore_barbato/8509182217

mihaitzateo
08-01-18, 15:15
Latin speaking ancestors of Romanians came to modern Romania from Bulgaria and southern Balkans in period from 12th to 14th century.
Before 12th century there was no Latin speaking people in territory of modern Romania, in present day Romania in middle age majoriry of populations were Slavs, but also Hungarians, Avars Saxons, Cumans, Tatars and Pechenegs were present.

Latin speakers who came to Wallachian plain from areas south of Danube in 12-14th century were assimilated local Slavs, and from that mix was created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
Modern Romanians have around 45% Slavic Y DNA (I2a 27%, R1a 18%), real Vlach haplogroups are eastern R1b, J2b and E-V13.
The purest Vlachs are Vlachs from southern Balkans (Aromanians), they have much less Slavic influence than Romanians which has heavy Slavic influence.

Romanian language until mid of 19th century was more Slavic than Latin, even today there is around 20% Slavic words in Romanian language.

There is a hundreds of Slavic toponyms in Romania today, and in the past even more.

Romanians actually have 40% I2-din on average.
And 18% R1A on average.
But that does not means that we are Slavs.
It means that people from Balkans were assimilated by Slavs.
To whom ex-Yugos and Bulgarians are clustering on autosomal testing,with Ukrainians,Russians,Poles,Czechs,Slovaks?
No, they cluster very near or over Romanians.

Bachus
08-01-18, 15:35
Romanians actually have 40% I2-din on average.
And 18% R1A on average.
But that does not means that we are Slavs.
It means that people from Balkans were assimilated by Slavs.
To whom ex-Yugos and Bulgarians are clustering on autosomal testing,with Ukrainians,Russians,Poles,Czechs,Slovaks?
No, they cluster very near or over Romanians.

Even Serbs and Croats (which have more I2a-Din than Romanians don't have 40% I2a-Din) have less than 40% I2a-Din.
Romanians have 28% I2a-Din
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

According to Eupedia there is 34% I2a-Din in Serbia, but ethic Serbs have around 37% I2-Din.

I2a-Din came with Slavs in VII century.
Aromanians which are purest Vlachs than Romanians have less I2a-Din than Romanians, Albanian and Greeks have even less I2a-Din than Aromanians.

There is more holders of I2a-Din among Russians than in whole Balkans.
Number or Russians is around 150 millions and about 57 millions are men, among Russians I2a is 10,5% which means that among Russians there is around 7,9 million holders of I2a-Din and that is more than in Balkans.

Vlachs haplogroups are eastern R1b, E-V13 and J2b.

Litovoi
09-01-18, 08:17
E-V13 scores more than 20% in the Western Wallachia, 2 samples from Martinez-Cruz and one from Cruciani 2004,while,for example, Cluj(M-C) and Ploiesti(Bosch) have this figure.
That's why I2a and even R1a are directly related to E-V13,within the Romanian-Vlach populations.
These haplogroups,no matter the origins,must be connected to certain ethnic,cultural ,realities,otherwise we gonna use mathematics/tables much more than law allows it to reach the same senseless results,"we are all from Africa" or "let me do a DNA test,then we talk about Renfrew or Anthony".
Connections between the Romanian-Vlach Y-DNA and autosomes were targeted by these two studies, Schmidt-Hoeckenbeck,"Genetic Studies in South Balkan Populations" and Bosch,Paternal and maternal...Aromuns",because,although we don't know if these share their samples,the same locations are being used,Ploiesti and Constanta,for the Romanians,Andon Poci,Kogalniceanu,Stip etc,for the Aromanians.

Litovoi
09-01-18, 09:48
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14746136&ved=2ahUKEwi0t6WZssrYAhUJZVAKHdKKA24QFjADegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0LR9xH8Iovo66u6CyCghST
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

Litovoi
09-01-18, 09:53
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/

Litovoi
09-01-18, 10:11
Serbian kjelator that designates a Vlach function,doesn't come from Greek kellas,a sheep,because the word is Romanian,calator means traveller and it is the typical Latin formation,association, road-traveller,via-viator,cale(Latin callis)-calator,which is preserved only in this language.
https://books.google.ro/books?id=SqVzCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT192&lpg=PT192&dq=serbia+vlachs+degree+romanization&source=bl&ots=e9HdIPOl_B&sig=tgqWlu-BADETbBFoe4gdg_l7MyE&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_z5H3s8rYAhWFZVAKHfW4CngQ6AEwCHoECAEQA Q#v=onepage&q=serbia%20vlachs%20degree%20romanization&f=false