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Alan
22-08-11, 02:34
Who else did recognize the correlation between Celtiic areas and Haplogroup G/J. It seems compared to other parts of Central and North Europe these areas got more of it.
Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%

Bodin
22-08-11, 06:30
In Switzerland and parts of North Italy in preroman times there was tribe of Raeti , they use to speak languague close to Etruscans . Most of scientist believe they were descendants of Etruscans who escaped from valey of river Po in north Italy infront of invading Celts.
Etruscans were from Asia Minor , that could explain higher G2 J2 and J1. About Raeti :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti
G2a could also be conected with high mountains ," haplogroup of goatbriders".
Also by findings in Neolitic sites G was dominant in western Europe of that time , in Treilles in France was mainly G2a and some I2a1 ( now on Sardinia I believe it to be Vandalic ) , and in Derenburg in Saxonia Anhalt ,Germany there was mainly G2a with some F* .
Anyway it seem like G2a and J2 was very involved in creating of Celtic culture , because it was present in that aeria before Celts ( R1b ?) and surely had some influence on them

zanipolo
22-08-11, 10:14
The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.

The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin

some history
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/celts/celt1b.pdf

spongetaro
22-08-11, 10:34
Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%

Poitou-Saintonge is not located in the Yellow zone but Alsace does and has 9% of J2

spongetaro
22-08-11, 10:38
G2a may have started the iron age, bringing sophisticated metallurgy from the Black sea area to the Alpes (Halstatt).
I think that R1b L11 predates the Celtic era and entered Europe with the Beakers during the Chalcolithic.

Dorianfinder
22-08-11, 11:11
Who else did recognize the correlation between Celtiic areas and Haplogroup G/J. It seems compared to other parts of Central and North Europe these areas got more of it.
Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%

The highest frequencies of both G and J2 can be found in the Eastern Roman sphere:
Turkey/Anatolia 11% G and 24% J2
Crete 9.5% G and 34% J2
Cyprus 9% G and 37% J2
South Italy 8.5% G and 23.5% J2
Aegean Islands 8.5% G and 20% J2
Central Italy 8.5% G and 19.5% J2

These haplogroups were possibly carried together as part of a Greco-Roman admixture within the R1b-U152 sphere. It also indicates the proto-Celtic R1b-U152 link to the Greco-Roman East.

A thorough study of R1b-U152 is needed throughout the above Eastern Med. countries to ascertain the levels of U152 and geographic distribution. It is long overdue!

Bodin
22-08-11, 12:03
The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.

The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin

some history
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/celts/celt1b.pdf
I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?

zanipolo
22-08-11, 12:41
I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?

The Ladini ( raeti) have always been in the alps of veneto since pre bronze age, the Ancient Veneti NEVER ever reached the alps.
The ladini population is only 53000 at the moment. Yes they are G2a , same as the Raeti

The other language between the veneti and slovenia is Friuli , 550000 people speak an ancient gallic language from Narbon ( southern France )

With I2a1 M26 being a 'western" I haplogroup , which as stated on 1st July 2011, ranges between basques to venice, I cannot see where the friuli fit in. Since they where the ancient Carni tribe, I figure they could be G2a or maybe even the "eastern" I2a2

Taranis
22-08-11, 12:42
The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.

Sorry, could you show me any evidence that Raetic was similar to Venetic? That is the first time I hear this, because from what I have seen, language in the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is obviously similar to Etruscan:

http://adolfozavaroni.tripod.com/retiche.htm

The problem however is the question if there really is a connection between the Raetians (who from the looks of it weren't a homogenous ethnic group) and the language in the "Raetic" inscriptions.


The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin

Sorry, the Ladin language and ancient Raetian are obviously completely unrelated, even if they are in the same general area.


G2a may have started the iron age, bringing sophisticated metallurgy from the Black sea area to the Alpes (Halstatt).
I think that R1b L11 predates the Celtic era and entered Europe with the Beakers during the Chalcolithic.

G2a was present in Europe all along since the Neolithic. It was the dominant Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe. The present-day distribution of G2a may be explained by the fact that the Neolithic farmers survived the arrival of the Indo-Europeans better in more remote hilly/mountainous areas than in lowlying ones. Having said this, it is certainly conceivable that there a double effect at work with G2a, with both G that remained distributed across Europe from Neolithic times, and G that was dispersed and re-introduced across Europe in higher concentrations by the spread of Hallstatt and La-Tene.

Regarding R1b, L11 clearly predates the classical Celtic cultures, and I absolutely agree about it's (likely) arrival in Western Europe in the Copper Age.

zanipolo
22-08-11, 12:47
I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?

The Ladini ( raeti) have always been in the alps of veneto since pre bronze age, the Ancient Veneti NEVER ever reached the alps.
The ladini population is only 53000 at the moment. Yes they are G2a , same as the Raeti

The other language between the veneti and slovenia is Friuli , 550000 people speak an ancient gallic language from Narbon ( southern France )

With I2a1 M26 being a 'western" I haplogroup , which as stated on 1st July 2011, ranges between basques to venice, I cannot see where the friuli fit in. Since they where the ancient Carni tribe, I figure they could be G2a or maybe even the "eastern" I2a2

Bodin
22-08-11, 23:29
It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ? What are the proofs Ladini are Raeti ? Is there any I2a2 in Ladini which I believe to be Venetic ?
About Friuli shouldnt they be R1b if they come from Narbona ?
Thanks for answering .

Taranis
23-08-11, 00:24
It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ?

Actually both. Yes, the "Raetic" inscriptions are written in the Etruscan alphabet, but so were Celtic languages (Gaulish, Lepontic, Noric) and Italic languages (Oscan, Umbrian). But there is also features in the Raetic inscriptions that show that the language is similar to Etruscan:

- impossible consonant clusters
- making full use of the sound inventory of the Etruscan alphabet:

if I may take from the Steinberg inscription:

- Hesi Khlpan Lape kerakwe
- Shakateshtan Lape Phakate

I might also point out that the suffix "-kwe" is well-known from Etruscan as a collective adjective particle.

For comparison, take a look at this sentence from the Pyrgi Tablets:

- "Munistas Thuwas Tamereska Ilakwe Tulerase."

Also, look at the samples above? At first glance, does that look vaguely like an Italic or a Celtic language? I would say no.


What are the proofs Ladini are Raeti ? Is there any I2a2 in Ladini which I believe to be Venetic ?
About Friuli shouldnt they be R1b if they come from Narbona ?
Thanks for answering .

Truth be told, I have no idea what Zanipolo has been trying to say there... :useless:

Bodin
23-08-11, 05:31
[QUOTE=Bodin;378544]It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ?

Actually both. Yes, the "Raetic" inscriptions are written in the Etruscan alphabet, but so were Celtic languages (Gaulish, Lepontic, Noric) and Italic languages (Oscan, Umbrian). But there is also features in the Raetic inscriptions that show that the language is similar to Etruscan:

- impossible consonant clusters
- making full use of the sound inventory of the Etruscan alphabet:

if I may take from the Steinberg inscription:

- Hesi Khlpan Lape kerakwe
- Shakateshtan Lape Phakate

I might also point out that the suffix "-kwe" is well-known from Etruscan as a collective adjective particle.

For comparison, take a look at this sentence from the Pyrgi Tablets:

- "Munistas Thuwas Tamereska Ilakwe Tulerase."

Also, look at the samples above? At first glance, does that look vaguely like an Italic or a Celtic language? I would say no.



Truth be told, I have no idea what Zanipolo has been trying to say there... :useless:
It sounds to me that your claims have more sence , I also use to believe that Raeti were Etruscan , but then Zanipolo said there is some new proves showing they were Liburni , and I ask him to present that new proves , I expected he would knew being Italian ( I gesing he is ?) , but he didnt present any proves , and you did so I am back in my old believes - Raeti were Etruscans untill diferent is proven . Thank you for answering , and presenting proves.

zanipolo
23-08-11, 08:36
Sorry, could you show me any evidence that Raetic was similar to Venetic? That is the first time I hear this, because from what I have seen, language in the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is obviously similar to Etruscan:

http://adolfozavaroni.tripod.com/retiche.htm

The problem however is the question if there really is a connection between the Raetians (who from the looks of it weren't a homogenous ethnic group) and the language in the "Raetic" inscriptions.



Sorry, the Ladin language and ancient Raetian are obviously completely unrelated, even if they are in the same general area.



G2a was present in Europe all along since the Neolithic. It was the dominant Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe. The present-day distribution of G2a may be explained by the fact that the Neolithic farmers survived the arrival of the Indo-Europeans better in more remote hilly/mountainous areas than in lowlying ones. Having said this, it is certainly conceivable that there a double effect at work with G2a, with both G that remained distributed across Europe from Neolithic times, and G that was dispersed and re-introduced across Europe in higher concentrations by the spread of Hallstatt and La-Tene.

Regarding R1b, L11 clearly predates the classical Celtic cultures, and I absolutely agree about it's (likely) arrival in Western Europe in the Copper Age.

as the evidence I presented you was not accepted by you , it seems odd that you go with this etruscan theory based on a etruscan leader being called Reutus. BTW, venetic also uses etruscan inscriptions, so what do we say about this?

As for the Ladini language, every linguidtic site and scholar say that Romanasch, Ladini and Friulian are modern evolution of the rhaetian language.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1728-16
Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Rhaetian, Rhaetian

Indo-European (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=2-16) (439)
Italic (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=296-16) (42)
Romance (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=297-16) (41)
Italo-Western (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=298-16) (32)
Western (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=299-16) (27)
Gallo-Iberian (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=300-16) (26)
Gallo-Romance (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=301-16) (14)
Gallo-Rhaetian (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=302-16) (9)
Rhaetian (3)
Friulian [fur (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=fur)] (Italy (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT))
Ladin [lld (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lld)] (Italy (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT))
Romansch [roh (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=roh)] (Switzerland (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=CH))



Since Ladini has always been in the Veneto and Friulian has been in friuli and that they sit under the Rhaetian branch, then you saying these linguistic scholars are wrong.?




In regards to G2a , since rhaetian has it and so do the ladini , does the friulian have it. I know they where the ancient CARNI , who lived in the eastern part of italy as well as western Slovenia ( next to the taurisci

Taranis
23-08-11, 10:46
as the evidence I presented you was not accepted by you , it seems odd that you go with this etruscan theory based on a etruscan leader being called Reutus.

I rejected it because of a statistical analysis, which seems completely pointless when you can actually show readily from Raetic inscriptions the similarities of the language with Etruscan.

What you say about "Reutus" (or "Raetus"), I agree that it does not sound Etruscan. But consider what I said earlier: that the connection between "Raetic" inscriptions and the Raetian peoples as known to the Romans is problematic.


BTW, venetic also uses etruscan inscriptions, so what do we say about this?

Yes, Venetic also uses the Etruscan alphabet, but as I said so did a number of Celtic and Italic languages. This is not the point. The point is, as I said, that the languages really were similar.


As for the Ladini language, every linguidtic site and scholar say that Romanasch, Ladini and Friulian are modern evolution of the rhaetian language.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1728-16
Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Rhaetian, Rhaetian

Indo-European (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=2-16) (439)
Italic (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=296-16) (42)
Romance (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=297-16) (41)
Italo-Western (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=298-16) (32)
Western (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=299-16) (27)
Gallo-Iberian (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=300-16) (26)
Gallo-Romance (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=301-16) (14)
Gallo-Rhaetian (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=302-16) (9)
Rhaetian (3)
Friulian [fur (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=fur)] (Italy (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT))
Ladin [lld (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=lld)] (Italy (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IT))
Romansch [roh (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=roh)] (Switzerland (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=CH))



Since Ladini has always been in the Veneto and Friulian has been in friuli and that they sit under the Rhaetian branch, then you saying these linguistic scholars are wrong.?

I was never talking about the modern Rhaetian (Romance!) language. I am talking about the ancient language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetic_language). Stop confusing those. As an analogy, by your logic, modern-day Portuguese is the same as Lusitanian.

FIREYWOTAN
11-02-18, 12:30
Charting the concentratons helps to answer and define your hypothesis. That allows the Cetic story a clearer picture. Thanks for sharing that set of clues.

hrvclv
14-03-18, 22:00
I don't know much about Rhaeti or their language. I'll just point out that the suffix -kwe in itself could just as well be IE. As in "Senatus Populusque..." (the senate and the people...)

What made me wonder, on the other hand, was the fact that the high concentrations of G mentioned above, in and around the Alps, roughly match with the area where the Celtic Q/P shift occurred. As if, while gradually moving west, the Proto-Celts had mixed with G populations who just couldn't handle their labiovelar "kw" sound. The locals would then have produced what they thought they heard, keeping the plosive sound but shifting it to the lips.

Interestingly, another post above underlines the high concentrations of G and J in Greece and neighboring areas - where IE "ekwos" turned into "hippos"... again with "p" instead of "kw".