PDA

View Full Version : Slovenians , west-slavic, south-slavic or celtic



zanipolo
26-08-11, 10:35
Looking at the history of the slovenian territory, I came across slavic people arguing about what kind of slavs they where , either west or south slavs.

When looking at the historical area in the bronze-age, it was called Noricum, I noticed it was made up of the Raeti ( G2a ) in the alps to the adriatic sea ( found this out last week), the taurisci which where gallic-celts ( ligurian tribe taurini ) and the carni which where gallic-celts.
In some books it says the norici tribe was also there and some say they taurisci where also the same people as the Norici.

If modern Slovenian have
51% R1a
23% I2a
15% I1a
5% R1b

Would it be safe to assume that they where made up of mostly west-slavic "polish" branch as the R1a + I1a is present in the modern polish lands..

Shetop
26-08-11, 11:55
If modern Slovenian have
51% R1a
23% I2a
15% I1a
5% R1b

Would it be safe to assume that they where made up of mostly west-slavic "polish" branch as the R1a + I1a is present in the modern polish lands..

Your numbers are not quite correct, check this data from Battaglia paper: http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ydna.png

The most of R1a could indeed be similar to R1a found among West Slavs. After all it is known that Eastern Alps were settled by Slavs from Northeast.

I2a (that is probably I2a1b1a) should be of mostly the same origin to I2a found among South Slavs.

R1b is probably most numerous pre-Slavic haplogroup and I would also relate it it to Celts.

I1 has frequency of around 10% and good part of it could have been brought by Langobards.

There are also E-V13 and J2 in smaller frequencies (probably mostly of pre migration period origin).

So I think it is not wrong if we say Slovenians are all that: West-Slavic, South-Slavic and Celtic, but also there were other people who had chosen today's Slovenia to settle there.

iapodos
26-08-11, 13:13
I2a (that is probably I2a1b1a) should be of mostly the same origin to I2a found among South Slavs.



Well, what is interesting is that Slovenian I2a2 Dinaric haplotypes belongs to subgroup I2a2 Dinaric North in difference with I2a2 Dinaric South which is typical for Serbs, Croats and Bosnian muslims. Eastern Alps were settled in two waves, first wave came from north and was that of Western Slavs, and second one was from the east from Panonian plain when together with Avars came huge group of Slavs. Slovenians are according to genetics really typical Slavic nation.

Bodin
27-08-11, 11:55
I have quite diferent % for Slovenia :
I1 9,5%
I2b 2%
I2a 22%
R1a 34,5%
R1b 22,4%
G2a 2,6%
J2 3%
J1 1%
E1b1b 3%
Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria) like their borderguards ( limitanei ) betwen 575 and 580 , there was Bavarians and Langobards there .First conflict with Bavarians after that was in 593 when Bavarian duke Tassilo I crossed Brener , and from lower Ens advanced toward upper Drava , he defeated Slavs and took great prey. But in campaing of next year he was ambushed by Avar cavalary and lose 2000 people .603 -611 Avars atack Byzantine Istra( today in Croatia) in aliance with Langobards , Langobards betray them and make peace with empire , but Avars anyway take Istra and kill all soldiers there heavily depopulating it , since 611 they settling Slavs from Karanthania there . 670-680 is coming of second wave of Avars , it is not atested in sources , but I wave sceletons have caucasian sceletons ( probably J2 from KKhorazm ) , but in II wave there is some sceletons that showing mongolic features- newcomers from east . Around 700 they beat Bavarians , and " in they land was only wild animals and no humans" . Border is on river Ens. 791 Charlemagne conquered lands to river Raba , and very son whole of Avaria .
So I1 and I2b can be from Langobards , Bavarians , Franks , Austrians ( During AustroHungary , there was significant German minority from Germany in Slovenia before II world war, mainly settled by AustroHungary during they rule , but comunist expeled them 1945 )
I2a there was significant Croatian settlement during Turk invasions on Balkans- Croats retreated infront of Turks , some of it could be I2a1 - from Veneti .
R1a is from Slavs
R1b from Celts that lived there Taurisci , Norici ,Carni,... and Romans
G2a ancient -Neolithic
E1b1b, J2 and J1 from Roman empire soldiers

Taranis
27-08-11, 23:51
I would like to point out that Slovenian R1a is probably not exclusively Slavic, even if a sizable fraction of it (if not the majority) of it is. R1a has been in Europe since the Copper Age, and is found outside of the area of Slavic settlements in considerable frequencies (for instance Scandinavia and Greece). Considering the high concentration of I1 in Slovenia, it's certainly likely that some of the Slovenian R1a might also be Germanic or even earlier in origin (consider that R1a might have been in that area since the Bronze Age!).

With regard for R1b, there is both U152 and U106 in Slovenia - in other words both Celtic/Roman and Germanic R1b.

Bodin
28-08-11, 05:31
I would like to point out that Slovenian R1a is probably not exclusively Slavic, even if a sizable fraction of it (if not the majority) of it is. R1a has been in Europe since the Copper Age, and is found outside of the area of Slavic settlements in considerable frequencies (for instance Scandinavia and Greece). Considering the high concentration of I1 in Slovenia, it's certainly likely that some of the Slovenian R1a might also be Germanic or even earlier in origin (consider that R1a might have been in that area since the Bronze Age!).

With regard for R1b, there is both U152 and U106 in Slovenia - in other words both Celtic/Roman and Germanic R1b.
Good point I forgot to mention that , and also some of Germanic genes were brought by Goths

Marjeta
11-12-11, 13:05
In december 2011 in my DNA base situation is like this: From all Slovenia, urban and countryside there is 411 Y-DNA samples. Inclouding also Slovenian minority in Italy (10 samples).

R1a1 - 37,71%
I2a2 - 19,46
R1b - 16,30
I1 - 10,46
E - 4,87
G - 3,89
J - 3,16
I2b - 2,19
T - 1,22
L - 0,49
H - 0,24

It looks like in the west (Goriška) R1a and R1b have near the same % and there is more I1 than slovenian average is. But interesting - Slovenian minority in Italy has more R1a1 (4/10). Maybe they did not mix a lot with Italians, Furlans, Germans in that areas. There is more I2a2 in south east (Spodnje Posavje) and more R1a1 in Gorenjska area, in center and in north east (Pomurje) in north (Koroška) and interesting on the coast (Obalno Kraška). In north east (Podravje) there is also more I2a2. Of course, MORE SAMPLES are needed to prove (or not) this picture. If you want more, search in google: Slovenija v DNK bazenu sveta Manfreda Vrecko and Y-DNA routes of the ancestors of Slovenes Manfreda


Lp, Marjeta

Marjeta
11-12-11, 13:11
Hallo. Can you tell me the link to this information you wrotte: Raeti (G2a)? I am very interesting! Please and thank you, Marjeta

zanipolo
11-12-11, 20:42
In december 2011 in my DNA base situation is like this: From all Slovenia, urban and countryside there is 411 Y-DNA samples. Inclouding also Slovenian minority in Italy (10 samples).

R1a1 - 37,71%
I2a2 - 19,46
R1b - 16,30
I1 - 10,46
E - 4,87
G - 3,89
J - 3,16
I2b - 2,19
T - 1,22
L - 0,49
H - 0,24

It looks like in the west (Goriška) R1a and R1b have near the same % and there is more I1 than slovenian average is. But interesting - Slovenian minority in Italy has more R1a1 (4/10). Maybe they did not mix a lot with Italians, Furlans, Germans in that areas. There is more I2a2 in south east (Spodnje Posavje) and more R1a1 in Gorenjska area, in center and in north east (Pomurje) in north (Koroška) and interesting on the coast (Obalno Kraška). In north east (Podravje) there is also more I2a2. Of course, MORE SAMPLES are needed to prove (or not) this picture. If you want more, search in google: Slovenija v DNK bazenu sveta Manfreda Vrecko and Y-DNA routes of the ancestors of Slovenes Manfreda


Lp, Marjeta

You should not assume that all R1a is slavic , it is also Germanic.
A history of slovenia says
Main article: History of Styria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Styria)

During early Roman times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome), Styria was inhabited by Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) tribes. After its conquest by the Romans, the eastern part of what is now Styria was part of Pannonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia), while the western one was included in Noricum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum). During the Barbarian invasions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian_invasions), it was conquered or crossed by the Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths), the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), the Ostrogoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths), the Rugii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugii), the Lombards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards), the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) and the Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars). In 595 the latter were defeated by the Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs), who thenceforth ruled it.

so, visi and ostro goths have majority R1a , also because they mixed with the germanic bastanae on the black sea. They then would have picked up different haplotypes due to there tendency of recruiting foreign troops.
The Rugii are originally norwegian and I1
Lombards are east germans , again , unsure but I1
Franks, Avars , I am unsure

The furlans are equally mixed with Veneti, Rhaeti and Gallic-Ligurian/celts. There language to this day is Romansch/gallic

julia90
11-12-11, 20:53
Here's the genetic map, more clear and precise than haplogrous that are useless
SI=SLOVENIANS
http://spittoon.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

julia90
11-12-11, 21:01
based on my personal morphes of famous football players, from my blogspot http://footballplayersmorphes.blogspot.com/

Slovenians, morph of 16 famous footballplayers:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_C7gPxf4vSIM/TE9OmJ4YdMI/AAAAAAAAAaI/yzN5AkMoJr4/s1600/slovenia16.bmp

julia90
11-12-11, 21:03
my opinions on ancient population back ground of slovenians, manly Carni (gaulish tribe) plus Slavs
with venetic, illyrians and germanic tribes contributions

zanipolo
26-04-12, 13:25
I have quite diferent % for Slovenia :
I1 9,5%
I2b 2%
I2a 22%
R1a 34,5%
R1b 22,4%
G2a 2,6%
J2 3%
J1 1%
E1b1b 3%
Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria) like their borderguards ( limitanei ) betwen 575 and 580 , there was Bavarians and Langobards there .First conflict with Bavarians after that was in 593 when Bavarian duke Tassilo I crossed Brener , and from lower Ens advanced toward upper Drava , he defeated Slavs and took great prey. But in campaing of next year he was ambushed by Avar cavalary and lose 2000 people .603 -611 Avars atack Byzantine Istra( today in Croatia) in aliance with Langobards , Langobards betray them and make peace with empire , but Avars anyway take Istra and kill all soldiers there heavily depopulating it , since 611 they settling Slavs from Karanthania there . 670-680 is coming of second wave of Avars , it is not atested in sources , but I wave sceletons have caucasian sceletons ( probably J2 from KKhorazm ) , but in II wave there is some sceletons that showing mongolic features- newcomers from east . Around 700 they beat Bavarians , and " in they land was only wild animals and no humans" . Border is on river Ens. 791 Charlemagne conquered lands to river Raba , and very son whole of Avaria .
So I1 and I2b can be from Langobards , Bavarians , Franks , Austrians ( During AustroHungary , there was significant German minority from Germany in Slovenia before II world war, mainly settled by AustroHungary during they rule , but comunist expeled them 1945 )
I2a there was significant Croatian settlement during Turk invasions on Balkans- Croats retreated infront of Turks , some of it could be I2a1 - from Veneti .
R1a is from Slavs
R1b from Celts that lived there Taurisci , Norici ,Carni,... and Romans
G2a ancient -Neolithic
E1b1b, J2 and J1 from Roman empire soldiers

The haplotype numbers above are also maciano's numbers. Recent accusations by some DNA people have suggested that the R1a numbers are doubles of the same people who used different names. Basically hoping to increase the R1a % of the slovenians more ( common sense people realise Hg do not belong to one race or another ).

In regards to these original ancient slovene people ( pre-slavic) , I think they are people of Illyric, noric and gaulish extraction who gained some venetic, celtic and later germanic traits pre Roman times. The confusing part is that Livy and others wrote that the Venetic people came from the troad in anatolia, crossed into europe, march along the coast to the danube, sailed inland , then used the sava river into pannonia and noricum. This was circa 1270BC before the trojan wars. These venetic people intermingled with illyrians. The venetic then continued over time into the Venetian area and established a city initially called Trojanus pagus ( padua) . the venetic that stayed in pannonia and noricum where the catari tribe to name one.
If this is fact , then the slovenes ( unless they are 100% slavic) must have been initally 100% illyrian. the year 1270BC is prior to the bronze age migrations
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6WkfWBC8yq0C&pg=PA871&lpg=PA871&dq=trojanus+pagus&source=bl&ots=Qrt9PUqE7S&sig=hZgaqmGa7vp6S0ccj7OtEgJIRcY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yTCZT7vPHPCSiAeL38WCBg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=trojanus%20pagus&f=false


http://books.google.com.au/books?id=xHADAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA367&dq=venetic+savus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zjGZT5mDFK2JmQXC69GmBg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venetic%20savus&f=false

The gaulish aspect of slovene are the taurisci and carni people. The taurisci in the northern parts of slovenia and the carni in the western part. Are these gaulish people the first celts who moved there around 500BC or are these germanic celts with the R1b.

Any links would be helpful

Vedun
18-05-14, 16:21
"celtic". What does that mean? Irish? lol. A nationalistic occult nonsense.

Vedun
18-05-14, 16:57
Incorrect:
"If modern Slovenian have
51% R1a
23% I2a
15% I1a
5% R1b"

Correct: Y DNA (men)
N %


R1a



177


38,56


R1b


74

16,12


I2a1


82

17,86


I2a2



9

1,96



I1


48

10,46


E


23

5,01



G



20

4,36


J


17

3,7



Biggest concentration with Slavic R1a haplogroup is in the North-East of the country (Prekmurje: 62,5%), the lowest on the west on the Italian border with Venezia (Benečija); 37% and in Gorica (Gorizia); 21%.

mDNA (women)
N %


H



251


40,16


U


102

16,32


J


75

12


T


63

10,08


K


50

8


HV + V


41

6,56


W


18

2,88


I


11

1,76


X


8

1,28


N


3

0,48


A


1

0,16

Vedun
18-05-14, 17:27
"Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria)"

Occult nonsense. There is no proof of any major Slavic migration in 5th-6th century. Because the N (Avar) haplogroup = 0% in Slovenia. Even contrary. Genetic studies confirm the newest Archeological excavations (i have spoken with some archeologist) in Slovenia, that the migrations did not appear in masses at all; the previous tribes for which the archeologists thought to belong to so called "Scythians" (aka "Iranians) and started to migrate into Slovenian lands were in fact the same people that suppose to arrive later, in 6th century AD. (not in masses as I've mentioned before). The migrations of men (!! and not women) happened because of 1. Weddings; Slavic ("scythian") men were seeking brides in Slovenian territories (which was at that time part of the Roman empire), which means they could speak similar languages. There weren't found any evidences of "strugle, war" between these antique tribes, which means these people lived in peace together. Or 2. Because Scythians wanted to secure their borders with the dangerous Christian Roman empire; Christian cult which was spreading into Asia was a serious danger. And Slovene Karantanians learned this lesson in 9th century after acceptance of Frankish help against Avaric (Hebrew & Turkish; N haplogroup) invasions. In exchange for the support in Frankish and Bavarian military against Avars (we called them also "Obri"), Karantanians payed their "tax" in subjugation to the Frankish (Christian) throne. Karantanian citizens did not want to accept any Christian religion, so the bloody civil war continued until the last "pagan" Karantanian prince (Knez) Avrelij (he was probably of the old "Noric" ancestry) Droh or "second"); he kicked out all Christian conquerors, missionaries and rebuilt the old pantheon of god Svetovid (Swiatovit; his name was perverted by Christian parasites into the "Holy Sight" or "Sveti Vid" - the term for the invented "saint"). Gothic Bavarian general Tassilo III attacked Karantanian lands (which were already in several fights with Franks & Bavarians) and conquered the land. So Slovenes have had accept the Frankish and later Bavarian (later "Austrians") leaders. How ever Slovenes continued with election & inaugurations with their dukes. The last instalation of Karantanian (Carynthian; Koroški) dukes happened exactly 500 years ago with Ernest Železni (Ernest, duke of Austria) in traditional Slovene language at the Zollfeld plain (Gosposvetsko polje).


h ttp://sl. wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Kaernten_herzogeinsetzung .jpg

This is the inscriptions above the Duke's chair. "Sudonig Uhduk" (Sodnik Hudega; "judge of the criminal" in Slovene today). The letters are quite weird. Especially the letter "N" and "Y" rather reminds me on Venetic leters (Y = G in Venetic) which have died out in 1st c. AD.
h t tps ://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd. net/hphotos-ak-frc3/395168_254150157987559_1232582204_n. jpg

Ike
18-05-14, 18:33
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slika:Kaernten_herzogeinsetzung.jpg

This is the inscriptions above the Duke's chair. "Sudonig Uhduk" (Sodnik Hudega; "judge of the criminal" in Slovene today). The letters are quite weird. Especially the letter "N" and "Y" rather reminds me on Venetic leters (Y = G in Venetic) which have died out in 1st c. AD.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/395168_254150157987559_1232582204_n.jpg


Post normal links in future, as corrected above. No need for porn _filtering :)

Vedun
18-05-14, 19:14
I did not write 10 posts yet... until then, "porn filtering" sites ;)

LeBrok
18-05-14, 21:36
"celtic". What does that mean? Irish? lol. A nationalistic occult nonsense.
If you think "celtic" means only Irish you have tons to learn:

The earliest archaeological culture that may justifiably be considered Proto-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) is the Late Bronze Age Urnfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield) culture of Central Europe, which flourished from around 1200 BC.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-ChadCorc-3) Their fully Celtic[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-ChadCorc-3) descendants in central Europe were the people of the Iron Age Hallstatt culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) (c. 800–450 BC) named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt), Austria.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-4) By the later La Tène (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture) period (c. 450 BC up to the Roman conquest), this Celtic culture had expanded by diffusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-cultural_diffusion) or migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_migration) to theBritish Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles) (Insular Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_Celts)), France and The Low Countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Low_Countries) (Gauls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls)), Bohemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia), Poland and much of Central Europe, the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) (Celtiberians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberians), Celtici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtici) andGallaeci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaeci)) and northern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy) (Golaseccans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golasecca_culture) and Cisalpine Gauls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpine_Gaul))[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-koch2010_core-5) and, following the Gallic invasion of the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_invasion_of_the_Balkans) in 279 BC, as far east as central Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia)(Galatians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia)).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-koch2010_expansion-6)
The earliest undisputed direct examples of a Celtic language are the Lepontic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepontic_language) inscriptions, beginning in the 6th century BC.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#cite_note-Stifter-7) Continental Celtic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Celtic_languages) are attested almost exclusively through inscriptions and place-names. Insular Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_Celtic) is attested beginning around the 4th century AD through Ogham inscriptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscription), although it was clearly being spoken much earlier. Celtic literary tradition begins with Old Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish) texts around the 8th century. Coherent texts of Early Irish literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_literature), such as the Táin Bó Cúailnge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1in_B%C3%B3_C%C3%BAailnge) (The Cattle Raid of Cooley), survive in 12th-century recensions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recensions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

LeBrok
18-05-14, 22:02
"Avars setled Slavs in Karanthania ( today Slovenia and Koruska and Gradisce in today Austria)"

[QUOTE]Occult nonsense. There is no proof of any major Slavic migration in 5th-6th century. Because the N (Avar) haplogroup = 0% in Slovenia. Even contrary. Genetic studies confirm the newest Archeological excavations (i have spoken with some archeologist) in Slovenia, that the migrations did not appear in masses at all; Yes they did. They showed up suddenly in written records and we see huge archeological cultural change.




the previous tribes for which the archeologists thought to belong to so called "Scythians" (aka "Iranians) and started to migrate into Slovenian lands were in fact the same people that suppose to arrive later, in 6th century AD. (not in masses as I've mentioned before). The migrations of men (!! and not women) happened because of As you mentioned, if they were Iraniens they were not Slavic. These are two different (way different) languages. Actually Baltic language is closer to Iranian than Slavic.



1. Weddings; Slavic ("scythian") men were seeking brides in Slovenian territories (which was at that time part of the Roman empire), which means they could speak similar languages. Trade and commerce goes on regardless of languages.


There weren't found any evidences of "strugle, war" between these antique tribes, which means these people lived in peace together.
At the time of Slavic expansion the middle of Europe was very depopulated. There was nobody strong enough to stop Slavs.



Or 2. Because Scythians wanted to secure their borders with the dangerous Christian Roman empire; Often Scythians worked as auxiliary troops in Roman armies, so I think they had rather good relationship. Besides after 5th century BC Scythians and Sarmatians vanished from history. Some of them were Slavicized.

Vedun
18-05-14, 23:20
Often Scythians worked as auxiliary troops in Roman armies, so I think they had rather good relationship. Besides after 5th century BC Scythians and Sarmatians vanished from history. Some of them were Slavicized.

they vanished into the thin air...

"Yes they did. They showed up suddenly in written records and we see huge archeological cultural change."

Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"...The Holy Roman Church was needed and the Aryan Germans, Italians and Greeks were sent to them and taught them to write and to live and speak human languages...

Vedun
18-05-14, 23:37
"Baltic language is closer to Iranic than Slavic". I am glad for that you are great scholar of the Iranian and Baltic (?) languages (you probably meant Estonian and Lithuanian; as "Baltic" right? )

Yes, and Slovenian is closer grammatically to Rig Vedic Sanskrit.

LeBrok
19-05-14, 00:35
Use "Reply With Quote" button.


they vanished into the thin air... I didn't say that, did I? Try to find a written records of their contemporaries about their existence after 5th century. At least they don't exist as a coherent group and culture anymore.


Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
By 5th century in central Europe:
- Depopulation of the area, due to hunic invasions and Justinian plague, and colder climate.
- Change of material culture, simpler houses and ordinary daily items.
- Written Byzantine and Roman records about slavs moving south.
- Lack of records about existence/settlements of Slavs in Balkans pre 5th century.
These are the popular and official facts. If you think otherwise please support your unusual claims. I'm not changing the history, but you are, therefore the proof is on you.


Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"... What is the culture according to you? They had their language, their fashion, art, tribal rulers/politics, farming tradition, stories, religion, etc. The last time I checked, all of these denote culture. At the end of a day we have 1/4 of Europe speaking Slavic language, and only Ossetians speaking Iranian.

LeBrok
19-05-14, 00:43
"Baltic language is closer to Iranic than Slavic". I am glad for that you are great scholar of the Iranian and Baltic (?) languages (you probably meant Estonian and Lithuanian; as "Baltic" right? You remember the group of Balto-Slavic languages? Latvian and Lithuanian remaining of them. Estonian is finnic I suppose.


Yes, and Slovenian is closer grammatically to Rig Vedic Sanskrit. Closer than what, all of other IE languages?

Vedun
19-05-14, 16:35
Closer than what, all of other IE languages?

One of the closest, Yes. Especially the grammatics and several verbs are the same. Names of animals are almost identical. There are differences in the "herbal" world. Which means that some other group added their names of words of plants and several priests combined this knowledge into the Vedas (Veda in Slovene; "knowledge")... This is how the Sanskrit and Vedas were written. Artificially, from different languages. Veda (knowledge) was written to secure and maintain the ancient knowledge of the Universe, from the human past in simple stories for the people.
This is also the word from which "Witch" derives from; Vešča ("witch") in my language, V(i)esch; "to be skilled"; also a "moth" (insect, flying around, hearing things...); transmutation went from Veda, Vešča; Vetcha, Witch(er)... Second term was Volhv(also a "mage" and a King in old Slavic; Christian writers, parasites decided to keep the word; hence the "3 Volhvs("holy 3 kings who brought gifts to baby Jesus") come from in later Russian and Ukrainian Bible... Another version of this ancient priest was Vedun or Vedanec (a type of Druid; Truit; 3-Ved (the one who knows the Trinity (not Christian one))..

Lithuanian is also one of the closest. But not grammatically. (Slovene includes the same Dual conjugations of verbs as old Rig Vedic sanskrit; for women, men and for things), not only in Singular and Plural. For example

"to be"
Slovenian:

Singular:

sem, si, je - (i am you are, he/she/it is)

DUAL:

sva, sta, sta - (we two are, the two of you, the two of them)

Plural:

smo, ste, so - (we are, you are, they are)

and now Sanskrit:

Singular:
asmi, asi, asti

Dual:
svah, sthah, stah

Plural:
smah, stha, santi.

verb; "to fall" (in singular, dual and plural) Sanskrikt (Singular)
patami patasi patati
Dual
patava patath patatah
Plural
patamah patatha patanti

Slovene
padam padaš pada

Dual
padava padata padata
Plural
padamo padate padajo

Eng I fall you fall he falls (no dual) we fall you fall they fall

I have only recently discovered huge Vedic background of Slovenian mythology. For example Shiva was god Svetovid.
If you will understand the Vedic story of Shiva's Mangala (this is "Manu"(Man; "human")-Gala (throat, voice, seaGul; Galus, Galeb, Glagolica; Ghaul, Kelt("Celt")) then you will understand the Slovene "pagan" story of Svetovid and why Slavic Človek or Čelovek (huMAN) derives from "Čelo" (forhead; Shiva's(Svetovid's) forhead) and Vek (=Yuga; vYuga; Vyuka; Vijek... "Era" and "kalpa" (Kaplja "drop", "time"). When I have combined both stories I understood why our ancestors spoke about "Svetovid's dream" (which is Shiva's deep meditation called Samadhi; human as a "mind of Shiva")...Our mythology was perverted and almost destroyed with arrival of Christianity. That's why I do not agree with "official" linguistics and with those who call our original faith "pagan barbaric religion" (which was not)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rD6_YmyeGI

LeBrok
19-05-14, 18:32
Could you present us with linguistic analyses done by experts of relationship of IE languages to Rigveda. Reading few examples of similarities only proves that there is a relationship, as we can expect both languages being IE in origin.






Christian writers, parasites decided to keep the word; To ridicule someone's religion and presenting your "crazy" beliefs as true is very arrogant to say the least. Did you ever try to be objective and tolerant?



hence the "3 Volhvs("holy 3 kings who brought gifts to baby Jesus") come from in later Russian and Ukrainian Bible..
You mean that Catholics changed their bible story because Orthodox invented 3 kings? You mean that 3 kings didn't exist till about 10 hundreds AD, the time of first Kievan Rus became christian? This is bananas!





I have only recently discovered huge Vedic background of Slovenian mythology. For example Shiva was god Svetovid.
If you will understand the Vedic story of Shiva's Mangala (this is "Manu"(Man; "human")-Gala (throat, voice, seaGul; Galus, Galeb, Glagolica; Ghaul, Kelt("Celt")) then you will understand the Slovene "pagan" story of Svetovid Svetovit belonged to all Slavs not only Slovene.


and why Slavic Človek or Čelovek (huMAN) derives from "Čelo" (forhead; Shiva's(Svetovid's) forhead) and Vek (=Yuga; vYuga; Vyuka; Vijek... "Era" and "kalpa" (Kaplja "drop", "time"). When I have combined both stories I understood why our ancestors spoke about "Svetovid's dream" (which is Shiva's deep meditation called Samadhi; human as a "mind of Shiva")...Our mythology was perverted and almost destroyed with arrival of Christianity. That's why I do not agree with "official" linguistics and with those who call our original faith "pagan barbaric religion" (which was not)... I've never heard of any Slavic pagan believes being written down in original form. Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?


Little advice. When you presenting an "alternative" version of history, please be very generous in presenting any original, scientific, expert sources to support your points. Otherwise people won't take you seriously, and only you can expect our liberal opinion on your beliefs, and many sarcastic remarks.

Vedun
19-05-14, 19:26
Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?

It survived in oral mythologies and books quoted by several authors (including Janez Trdina; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janez_Trdina and his book "Povesti iz Gorjancev").
There survived at least 4 Cosmogonial myths (tales) in Slovenia regards to the god Svetovid. Earth was always portrayed as the "little sand in the great Sea where everything remains still if you put it there"... and human came (fell down) to planet Earth as Svetovid's "drop of sweat" from his forhead...
The Old faith survived vividly until the 1st world war. We know that there lived last priests or better said priestesses even until the end of 1960...They were performing the ritual called Osvatina or "newborn fire" (at every winter solstice, December 21.–23.). The tradition slowly died out because it was forbidden by Communist regime and before that restricted and forbidden by the Church. How ever there still live descendants of the old believers and several people claim that somebody is still bringing several symbols ("snake heads" (stones of special shapes) to special holy locations...

Regards to the "3 kings". The story came from Egyptian mythology before ended up in Byzantium and Rome. It was easily "assimilated" into our 3 "fairies" who were predicting future of the newborn baby (vile (fairies) rojenice, sojenice)
http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojenice
The most famous of all gods was also golden haired Kresnik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresnik_%28deity%29 from the "9th land" (probably shares similarity with Ygdrasil) . He was born after "9 human years" (old Slavic week have had 9 days and a Synodic month with 3 weeks * 9 days; (this was 1 Nakshatra in Vedas). The Slavic term 9 (Devet or Devyat) derives from Deva and means "god" or "godly", "divno" (divine). (also check the "mysterious Dante's 9 cycles of Hell; it seems that he knew about the old, pre christian europe very well)
Kresnik (kres = bonfire, uskrs, vaskrs in several other Slavic languages means "enliven"; "Incarnate"; Krs-Na; "to incarnate on") or "smasher" (Pariti, Par, pair, Parun, Perun) was a Karantanian form, Avatar of "Perun"... His cult survived until 20th century too in folks tradition.
That's why those who claim that Slavic Old faith was "barbaric" are etnocentric, ignorant. Fact is that Christianity "borrowed" (stole) old tradition and festivals, renamed gods (Godi; Bogi in cycles of the Koledar(Calendar) into "Saints" (when a child was born he carried name of his protector - God in every year-365 days), destroyed old cultures of Europe, Russia and wrote history "according to its own belief" - during Dark Middle Inquisitious ages... This is how we "lost" our memory about our past. Everything was destroyed. More than half of the Slovene territory was later Gothicized in current Austria.

Ike
19-05-14, 19:30
You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?

Sile
19-05-14, 20:17
Often Scythians worked as auxiliary troops in Roman armies, so I think they had rather good relationship. Besides after 5th century BC Scythians and Sarmatians vanished from history. Some of them were Slavicized.

they vanished into the thin air...

"Yes they did. They showed up suddenly in written records and we see huge archeological cultural change."

Show me your sources and a proof of that (archeological), not written. I could write many things. But these things do not need to be correct.
Besides why would Iranians "slavicize" when Slavs were still not "cultural"...The Holy Roman Church was needed and the Aryan Germans, Italians and Greeks were sent to them and taught them to write and to live and speak human languages...

sythians where iranic people who spoke a language that belonged to the Eastern Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages) family of languages.
and
The Sarmatians (Latin: Sarmatæ or Sauromatæ, Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Σαρμάται, Σαυρομάται) were an Iranian people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples) of the classical antiquity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) period, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-UNESCO-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#cite_note-2) They spoke Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_language), an Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) language from the Eastern Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages) family.

For both, Same ethnicity, same Eastern Iranian language group.
Romans and Greeks knew of these people , fought against these people, hired these people and yet NEVER mentioned any term of Slav in their literature.

The sarmatians where absorbed around 150 to 200AD by the migrating Goths from the North. THey ceased to exist as a people AND the Romans only referred to the term, sarmatians after ~200AD as confederate troops in the Gothic armies of the black sea area.

The slavs came around in the 5th century and abosorbed into their society in the Polesie ( border area of Ukraine and belarussia ) the remanants of sythians, sarmatians and any other people that sort refuge in this forested area.

But your nationalistic theme seems to think that these Scythians and sarmatians where ALWAYS slavs because the slavs absorbed them in the end.

Vedun
19-05-14, 20:18
"You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?"

I doubt about that. If anybody finds any a grave here, they do not make any genetic studies on the remains, because they are already so Determined and confident in their own "truth" that there does not exist a second option. (as I've already mentioned in my posts; there was not found any trace of Asian N patrimonial haplogroup - or any proof of migrations from Asia - check the genetic markers above)... The world was once colorful as it is today. You can see that from similar languages, mythologies. People were migrating constantly. You could have many tribes on one territory. And Romans were simply naming them as they wanted. Of course there was a Roman empire, all the way to the Great Britain, Middle east, you will find Roman coins everywhere you go. But that does not mean that these people were exclusively romans or celts or iranians. You could also have Balts here, who knows. I agree with you that historians should take genetic studies in history more seriously. As I wanted to portrait the mythology of Slovenes above through different eyes, not through the Jesuitic (Dark Middle ages)(several Vedic scholars would understand my comparisions of Slovene cosmogonic tales about Svetovid in comparision with Varaha and Shiva's Mangala (loka). Here in Europe several scholars have always rather rather see these things through the "barbaric, primitive" eyes. And everything which was not part of the "Biblic history" became false and wrong, barbaric, primitive and "satanic". That's why they burned many people on stakes and destroyed everything from the old times. There did not remain 1 single antique library.

Sile
19-05-14, 20:23
"You're both go around too much. Let's stick to one subject. For example that "Slavic migration in 5th-6th century".
Do we have any Y-DNA results from Pannononian basin, Slavonia before 5th century?"

I doubt about that. If anybody finds any a grave here, they do not make any genetic studies on the remains, because they are already so Determined and confident in their own "truth" that there does not exist a second option. The world was once colorful as it is today. You can see that from similar languages, mythologies. People were migrating constantly. You could have many tribes on one territory. And Romans were simply naming them as they wanted. Of course there was a Roman empire, all the way to the Great Britain, Middle east, you will find Roman coins everywhere you go. But that does not mean that these people were exclusively romans or celts or iranians. You could also have Balts here, who knows. I agree with you that historians should take genetic studies in history more often. As I wanted to portrait the mythology of Slovenes above through different eyes, not through the Jesuitic (Dark Middle ages)(several Vedic scholars would understand my comparisions of Slovene cosmogonic tales about Svetovid in comparision with Varaha and Shiva's Mangala (loka). Here in Europe several scholars have always rather rather see these things through the "barbaric, primitive" eyes. And everything which was not part of the "Biblic history" became false and wrong, barbaric, primitive and "satanic". That's why they burned many people on stakes and destroyed everything from the old times. There did not remain 1 single antique library.

Language does not make ethnicity
Did all of Europe become Romans because everyone spoke Latin,
today , are we wall English because we speak English!

Language does not indicate anything in regards to genetics or ethnicity .............you on the wrong track to discover the origins of slavs

Vedun
19-05-14, 20:25
Regards to the term "Slav". It is a perversion of the term Sklavenoi or Sklabenoi or Sklavines, etc. The word was generally invented by one of the Czech panslavist in 19th century... He simply ignored other Slavic tribes and rather used term for all Slovak & Slovene tribes(only)... Not all Slavic tribes were Slovenes. And the term Sklavenoi is a fusion of 2 different Slavic tribes; Herodotus's transliteration of Sokolot (Skolotoi (Scythian)) which is "Skolot" or Sokolot or "Sokol" (Falcon); eastern Slavic tribes, among Antes and western "Venedi". After "arrival" (mixing; eastern men were seeking "western" brides, but there was no "mass migration" ever found. Everything you hear or read is a purest lie) between 2 Slavic tribes in 1-9th century, they named themselves; S(o)kolo-Veni. Ven = Venet and Skla or Sklo, Stlo (in different transmutations, transliterations) they carried their name in "regnum Sklaborum"(betatism v/b), instead that Samo was still called "Ven(et)ic king".

Sile
19-05-14, 20:33
Regards to the term "Slav". It is a perversion of the term Sklavenoi or Sklabenoi or Sklavines, etc. The word was generally invented by one of the Czech panslavist in 19th century... He simply ignored other Slavic tribes and rather used term for all Slovak & Slovene tribes... Not all Slavic tribes were Slovenes. And the term Sklavenoi is a fusion of 2 different Slavic tribes; Herodotus's transliteration of Sokolot (Skolotoi (Scythian)) which is "Skolot" or Sokolot or "Sokol" (Falcon); eastern Slavic tribes, among Antes and western "Venedi". After "arrival" (mixing) between 2 Slavic tribes in 1-9th century, they named themselves; S(o)kolo-Veni. Ven = Venet and Skla or Sklo, Stlo (in different transmutations, transliterations) they carried their name in "regnum Sklaborum", instead that Samo was still called "Ven(et)ic king".

sorry to say you but, archeologists have found venetic remains from 1150BC , the finds are 88% in North-east Italy, 9% in Austria heading up to Innsbruck and 3% in western Slovenia.

So are you saying that slavs where in Italy from 1150BC!............is this what you mean?

Vedun
19-05-14, 20:40
No, there were no "Slavs" as we know them today at that time in current Slovenia, Austria yet, instead there could be traced several linguistic similarities with Slavic, Baltic if you wish; like were inscriptions about god Trimuziadi or Trimužiad(Triglav mountain, Trinitarian god, Trimurti,...); "3 men". "Trimuziatei donom" (Donašam, (Danem, Dam darujem ) Trimužiadu; "i am bringing a gift to Trimuziadi" - I donate Trimuziadi)... Closer we go to the Italian border, bigger were their linguistic diversities, assimilation into the Romanic languages.

LeBrok
19-05-14, 21:10
Where is the source of Sviatovit creating the world mith?

It survived in oral mythologies and books quoted by several authors (including Janez Trdina; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janez_Trdina and his book "Povesti iz Gorjancev").
There survived at least 4 Cosmogonial myths (tales) in Slovenia regards to the god Svetovid. Earth was always portrayed as the "little sand in the great Sea"... and human came (fell down) to planet Earth as Svetovid's "drop of sweat" from his forhead...
The Old faith survived vividly until the 1st world war. We know that there lived last priests or better said priestesses even until the end of 1960...They were performing the ritual called Osvatina or "newborn fire" (at every winter solstice, December 21.–23.). The tradition slowly died out because it was forbidden by Communist regime and before that restricted and forbidden by the Church. How ever there still live descendants of the old believers and several people claim that somebody is still bringing several symbols ("snake heads" (stones of special shapes) to special holy locations... Basically that's what we have and will ever have, just little snippets of old beliefs, based on few folk legends. It is impossible to recreate old religion in authentic form. Any modern "pagans" trying to follow this old religion are using a very crude imitation of old religion. Polish/Lithuanians writers of Romanticism wrote many stories based on folk legends. There were many spirits and nymphs, but not much about main gods like Perun and Sviatovit. They were almost all gone and forgotten by 17th century. Christianity entered some parts of Lithuania relatively late around 14 hundreds. If anything surviving of old religion would be found there. In this case I honestly doubt that you can find surviving pagan priestesses in Slovenia more than 1,000 after being Christian. After 500 years of Christianity in Mexico and if not the written monk's documents and Mayans inscriptions we wouldn't know much about their old religion. It should give you a realistic perspective on possibility of surviving Slovenia's old beliefs.


Regards to the "3 kings". The story came from Egyptian mythology before ended up in Byzantium and Rome. It was easily "assimilated" into our 3 "fairies" who were predicting future of the newborn baby (vile (fairies) rojenice, sojenice) I thought you said it was taken from a Russian bible?

(http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojenice)
Slavic week have had 9 days and a Synodic month with 3 weeks * 9 days; (this was 1 Nakshatra in Vedas). The Slavic term 9 (Devet or Devyat) derives from Deva and means "god" or "godly", "divno" (divine). (also check the "mysterious Dante's 9 cycles of Hell; it seems that he knew about the old, pre christian europe very well) Sounds plausible.


Kresnik (kres = bonfire, uskrs, vaskrs in several other Slavic languages means "enliven"; "Incarnate"; Krs-Na; "to incarnate on") or "smasher" (Pariti, Par, pair, Parun, Perun) was a Karantanian form, Avatar of "Perun"... His cult survived until 20th century too in folks tradition. I think you are reaching too far.


That's why those who claim that Slavic Old faith was "barbaric" are etnocentric, ignorant. Fact is that Christianity "borrowed" (stole) old tradition and festivals, renamed gods (Godi; Bogi in cycles of the Koledar(Calendar) into "Saints" (when a child was born he carried name for his protector - God in every year), destroyed old cultures of Europe, Russia and wrote history "according to its own belief" - during Dark Middle Inquisitious ages... This is how we "lost" our memory about our past. Everything was destroyed. More than half of the Slovene territory was later Gothicized in current Austria. Every new religion borrows elements from older ones. It also means that old Slavic religion borrowed something from even older beliefs, and beliefs of neighbors and conquerors. Religions also evolve with times.
It also doesn't mean that older religions are truer or better than newer ones, and vice versa. In both cases they are just beliefs in supernatural, just beliefs.

Ike
19-05-14, 21:11
sorry to say you but, archeologists have found venetic remains from 1150BC , the finds are 88% in North-east Italy, 9% in Austria heading up to Innsbruck and 3% in western Slovenia.

So are you saying that slavs where in Italy from 1150BC!............is this what you mean?

No, dude, I think he's not trying to say that. He just think Slavs are older than 6th century in that area. That is not surprising since it's official on this website that:

"Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others."

There are a lot of options left open, one of which is his theory, and, as he stated, scientists here do not think so and are not open for any of those interpretations, so they don't conduct genetic research. Until they change their approach, we will have no better knowledge of the history.


Romans and Greeks knew of these people , fought against these people, hired these people and yet NEVER mentioned any term of Slav in their literature.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that they were not there, even under different name or speaking different language. For example, he mentioned deities, and Svantevid. You can clearly find an Illyrian theonym Vidasus, on this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages#Illyrian_theonyms

Marjeta
30-06-14, 16:13
Dober dan!
Kogar zanimajo podrobnosti, so v referatu in na blogu. Tukaj je povzetek v slovenščini in angleščini.

Povzetek referata: Analiza Y-DNK haplotipov Slovencev (Manfreda, Vrečko, 2014) Več je na blogu - sloveniadna - na wordpress

Povzetek

V prispevku je predstavljena genetska analiza Slovencev na osnovi Y-DNK haplotipov, ki se dedujejo po očetu. Analizo sva naredila s 458 haplotipi dolžine od 9 do 43 označevalcev iz celotne Slovenije. Namen analize je bil določiti sorodnost z drugimi narodi ter oceniti okvirne smeri ter povprečne čase zadnjih selitev prednikov Slovencev. Z uporabo Atheyjevega ter Cullen in Nordtvedtovega spletnega programa sva razvrstila haplotipe iz Slovenije v podskupine. Najpogostejša genetska skupina v Sloveniji je R1a (38,7 ± 4,5 %), sledijo I2a1b (17,9 ± 3,5 %), R1b (16,2 ± 3,8 %), I1 (10,5 ± 2,8 %), itd. Z uporabo Kilin-Klyosovega kalkulatorja sva izračunala čase do skupnega prednika za večino Y-DNK skupin iz Slovenije. Skupni prednik slovenske R1a naj bi živel pred 3975 ± 799 leti, prednik I2a1b pred 2336 ± 351 leti, R1b pred 7534 ± 1152 leti in I1 pred 2886 ± 510 leti. Na osnovi lokacij 253 slovenskih haplotipov sva določila deleže Y-DNK skupin v Sloveniji po regijah. Ugotovila sva, da Slovenska R1a spada skorajda v celoti v evropsko Z282, znotraj nje pa verjetno v južno baltsko, volgino karpatsko in staro karpatsko ter zahodno slovansko (klasifikacija FTDNA) podskupino. Slovensko južno baltsko skupino sestavljajo večinoma haplotipi mlajše baltsko karpatske podskupine (po Klyosovu), ki predstavlja približno četrtino slovenske R1a. Največ R1a skupine je med beneškimi Slovenci, najstarejša pa je v Prekmurju. Haplotipi znotraj genetske skupine I2a1b-M423 so skoraj vsi severno dinarski, le nekaj jih je južno dinarskih, več te skupine je v Spodnjem Posavju. Haplotipi R1b so predvsem alpski R1b1a2a1a2b-U152/S28 in severozahodno evropski R1b1a2a1a1-U106/S21. Največ R1b sva našla na Goriškem, kjer morda celo presega delež R1a. Slovenski I1-M253 haplotipi so predvsem v zahodno in centralno evropskih vejah. Nekaj haplotipov je tudi nordijskih, bolj povezanih s Švedsko kot z Norveško, nekaj pa je vzhodnoevropskih. Več I1 je na Goriškem, kjer je po deležu enaka R1b. Na osnovi primerjave 200 daljših haplotipov iz Slovenije z drugimi iz spletne baze Ysearch sva izračunala okvirne čase selitev prednikov Slovencev. Rezultati kažejo, da se je verjetno več kot polovica prednikov Slovencev na tem prostoru naselila v času bronaste in železne dobe. Zadnji naselitveni val v zgodnjem srednjem veku pa bi lahko k današnjemu Y-DNK bazenu Slovencev prispeval 20-50 % genov. Okrog 5-10 % slovenske Y-DNK je v starih genetskih skupinah, kar kaže, da bi lahko nekaj moških prednikov današnjih Slovencev na tem prostoru živelo že pred bronasto dobo. Poiskala sva kraje, kjer sva v bazi YHRD našla največ različnih izmed 33 najpogostejših haplotipov iz Slovenije dolžine 9 označevalcev in države, kjer sva v bazi Ysearch našla največ haplotipov dolžine od 32 do 43 označevalcev, ki so najbližji Slovenskim po posameznih skupinah. Največ najbližjih haplotipov R1a in I2a1b sva našla v Rusiji in na Poljskem, R1a tudi na Češkem in v Nemčiji, I2a1b tudi v Ukrajini in na Balkanu, R1b in I1 v Nemčiji, Belgiji, Angliji in Irski, R1b tudi v Italiji in I1 tudi na Švedskem. Nekatere od teh držav nakazujejo možne smeri zadnjih selitev prednikov Slovencev. Selitve prednikov skupin R1a in I2a1b bi lahko potekale s severovzhoda, slednje deloma tudi z jugovzhoda, selitve prednikov skupine R1b bi lahko potekale s severa in zahoda, skupine I1 pa s severa.
:rolleyes2:
This paper presents genetic analysis of Slovenes based on Y-DNA haplotypes, which are inherited from father. Analysis was performed with 458 haplotypes (from 9 to 43 markers) from all over Slovenia. The purpose of the analysis was to determine similarities with other nations and estimate the time and direction of migrations of Slovene ancestors. Haplotypes were grouped into the subgroups by using the Athey’s and Cullen&Nordtvedt’s web predictors. The most common haplogroup in Slovenia is R1a (38.7 ± 4.5%), followed by I2a1b (17.9 ± 3.5%), R1b (16.2 ± 3.4%), I1 (10.5 ± 2.8%), etc. Kilin-Klyosov’s estimator was used to calculate times to the most recent common ancestor for the most of the Y-DNA haplogroups of Slovenes. The most recent common ancestor of Slovene R1a lived 3975 ± 799 years ago, ancestor of I2a1b lived 2336 ± 351 years ago, ancestor of R1b 7534 ± 1152 years ago and ancestor of I1 2886 ± 510 years ago. Based on locations of 253 Slovenian haplotypes the frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroups in Slovenia were obtained by region. Slovenian R1a belongs almost entirely to the European subgroup Z282 and within it probably into the southern Baltic, Volga-Carpathian, old Carpathian and western Slavic (FTDNA classification) subgroups. Slovenian southern Baltic subgroup consists of mostly young haplotypes from Baltic-Carpathian subgroup (according to Klyosov). This accounts for more than a quarter of the Slovenian R1a. The highest frequency of R1a is found among the Slovenes from the Veneto region in Italy and the oldest one in Prekmurje. Haplotypes in haplogroup I2a1b-M423 are almost all from the north Dinaric subgroup, only a few of them are from south Dinaric subgroup. The highest frequency of this group is found in the lower Sava valley region. R1b haplotypes belong mostly to the Alpine (U152) and North West European (U106) subgroups. The highest frequency of R1b is found in the province of Gorica where it perhaps exceeds the frequency of R1a. Slovenian I1-M253 haplotypes mainly belong to the West and Central European branches. Some haplotypes also belong to the Nordic subgroup, more associated with Sweden than Norway, and some to the Eastern European subgroup. The highest frequency of I1 is found in the province of Gorica, where it is equal to R1b. By comparing 200 haplotypes (from 32 to 43 markers) from Slovenia to others in the web database Ysearch the average migration times of Slovene ancestors were calculated. Results show that probably more than a half of Slovene ancestors settled in this territory during the Bronze and Iron Age. The latest bigger wave of migration in the Early Middle Ages probably contributed 20-50 % of the genes to the Y-DNA pool of today’s Slovenes. On the other hand 5-10 % of Slovenian Y-DNA belongs to the old subgroups, which indicates that some of male ancestors lived in this territory before the Bronze Age. The countries, in which the variety of 33 most common Slovene haplotypes (9 markers) is the highest, were found in the database YHRD. From the database Ysearch we selected the countries with the highest number of haplotypes (from 32 to 43 markers) that are the closest to the Slovenian. The most common and the closest haplotypes within groups R1a and I2a1b were found in Russia and Poland, within R1a also in Czech Republic and Germany and within I2a1b also in Ukraine and Balkans. The most common and the closest haplotypes within R1b and I1 were found in Germany, Belgium, England and Ireland, within R1b also in Italy and within I1 also in Sweden. Some of these countries indicate possible directions of the last migrations of the ancestors of Slovenes. Migration within groups R1a and I2a1b most probably took place from the northeast, the latter partly from the southeast. Migration of ancestors within group R1b most probably took place from the north and west and the migration within the group I1 from the north.

LeBrok
30-06-14, 17:37
Dober dan!
Kogar zanimajo podrobnosti, so v referatu in na blogu. Tukaj je povzetek v slovenščini in angleščini.

Povzetek referata: Analiza Y-DNK haplotipov Slovencev (Manfreda, Vrečko, 2014) Več je na blogu - sloveniadna - na wordpress

Povzetek


Great find Marjeta. Finally regional studies coming in with much better resolution.

. Results show that probably more than a half of Slovene ancestors settled in this territory during the Bronze and Iron Age. The latest bigger wave of migration in the Early Middle Ages probably contributed 20-50 % of the genes to the Y-DNA pool of today’s Slovenes. On the other hand 5-10 % of Slovenian Y-DNA belongs to the old subgroups, which indicates that some of male ancestors lived in this territory before the Bronze Age. The countries, in which the variety of 33 most common Slovene haplotypes (9 markers) is the highest, were found in the database YHRD.[/QUOTE]
I think the Y haplogroups replacements correspond to EEF farmers' groups being replaced by IE, and later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says).



Migration within groups R1a and I2a1b most probably took place from the northeast, the latter partly from the southeast. Migration of ancestors within group R1b most probably took place from the north and west and the migration within the group I1 from the north.

Vedun
29-07-14, 20:04
Which is a proof that there never existed some major Slavic migration in 6th century "AD". Among all of these facts, there are no traces (0%) of any N patrimonial haplogroups which would indicate any migration with "Avars" from the east and northeast.

"later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says)." According to recent archeological studies, this (minor) migration occured already since 1st century AD, and not since 6th century as it is still believed. This fact was confirmed with studies in Prekmurje region where are the R1a haplogroups the most common. The same branch(haplogroup) appeared in current Austria (that's why are claims that Austrian R1a1a haplogroup (especially) belonged to Germans rather bald; otherwise they would simply deny the fact that Slavs(eastern tribes called Antes or Anti) ever existed... ). There still exist old theory of Slavs which rather ignores the newest genetic and archeological indications on this territory and keeps going with its claims about some "major slavic invasion in 6th century". With other words; the R1a haplogroup belonged to the Slavic branch of the Antes (according to Jordanes), when I2a1b belonged to the Sclaveni or Vens (another branch of Venetic Slavs according to Jordanes). The recent migration of men (women did not migrate) from territories of curren Ukraine could explain the theory that Antes looked for brides in current territories of Slovenia. Language was not a major problem, that's why there were never found any indications of some major revolts or wars.

Sile
29-07-14, 20:31
Which is a proof that there never existed some major Slavic migration in 6th century "AD". Among all of these facts, there are no traces (0%) of any N patrimonial haplogroups which would indicate any migration with "Avars" from the east and northeast.

"later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says)." According to recent archeological studies, this (minor) migration occured already since 1st century AD, and not since 6th century as it is still believed. This fact was confirmed with studies in Prekmurje region where are the R1a haplogroups the most common. The same branch(haplogroup) appeared in current Austria (that's why are claims that Austrian R1a1a haplogroup (especially) belonged to Germans rather bald; otherwise they would simply deny the fact that Slavs(eastern tribes called Antes or Anti) ever existed... ). There still exist old theory of Slavs which rather ignores the newest genetic and archeological indications on this territory and keeps going with its claims about some "major slavic invasion in 6th century". With other words; the R1a haplogroup belonged to the Slavic branch of the Antes (according to Jordanes), when I2a1b belonged to the Sclaveni or Vens (another branch of Venetic Slavs according to Jordanes). The recent migration of men (women did not migrate) from territories of curren Ukraine could explain the theory that Antes looked for brides in current territories of Slovenia. Language was not a major problem, that's why there were never found any indications of some major revolts or wars.

there is R1a and R1b in europe before there where any germans, slavs, greeks or any other tribal race............the germanics did not enter austria until about 500AD ( no germans where south of the danube while the Roman empire existed) .
There is another ancient race in the area, the race of the alpine people, the modern slavs, germans and italians seem to forget this intentionally because it does not fit their modern national molds.

Yetos
29-07-14, 20:44
Which is a proof that there never existed some major Slavic migration in 6th century "AD". Among all of these facts, there are no traces (0%) of any N patrimonial haplogroups which would indicate any migration with "Avars" from the east and northeast.

"later Slavic (20-50%, which came from North-East, as paper says)." According to recent archeological studies, this (minor) migration occured already since 1st century AD, and not since 6th century as it is still believed. This fact was confirmed with studies in Prekmurje region where are the R1a haplogroups the most common. The same branch(haplogroup) appeared in current Austria (that's why are claims that Austrian R1a1a haplogroup (especially) belonged to Germans rather bald; otherwise they would simply deny the fact that Slavs(eastern tribes called Antes or Anti) ever existed... ). There still exist old theory of Slavs which rather ignores the newest genetic and archeological indications on this territory and keeps going with its claims about some "major slavic invasion in 6th century". With other words; the R1a haplogroup belonged to the Slavic branch of the Antes (according to Jordanes), when I2a1b belonged to the Sclaveni or Vens (another branch of Venetic Slavs according to Jordanes). The recent migration of men (women did not migrate) from territories of curren Ukraine could explain the theory that Antes looked for brides in current territories of Slovenia. Language was not a major problem, that's why there were never found any indications of some major revolts or wars.

since you know the story of Slovenia, can you tell me who are the Carantani and where are they from? before we mix Avars and rest.

SuperStalin
30-07-14, 10:06
Scythian just means "archer"... it's a word based on the same IE root as the word "Shooter".

Sarmatians were an Iranic-speaking people. The letter "S" in those languages tends to transform into "H",
so, these people could have also been called Hauromatae ( Hrvati, Croats ) or Saurovatae ( Srbi, Serbs ), or later Carantae ( Carantanians, Slovenes ).

Which could be an ancient Thracian ( and later Greek ) word for a people who live behind the Rocky ( Karpe ) mountains ( Carpathians / Carbhatians ).
Thracian language's closest relatives are Iranian languages.

http ://en .wikipedia .org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws

Vedun
30-07-14, 11:57
Scythia was a geographical term, multi ethnic society; which included also eastern Slavs, Avars, Hungarians, Iranians, Osetians,... Besides almost all Greek transliterations (transmutations) for Scythians can be easily explained through Slovene language; for example Skolotoi (as being 'scythians') according to Herodotus. The transmutation went from Sokolotoi or Sokoloti or Sokoli (Falcons; as was rather their symbol. In old times Hyperborean tribes wore names of birds; just like Ghauls (Celts); Ghaul means Gull (seaGull), Kelt (Golt); Gut; Gallus (rooster in italian); Glagolica; Glas, Golos, Galeb (the Lingual container is GL) which means a "throat", "voice" (a bird)... गल (gala), गलक (galaka),... people who "speak" (like birds).

Amazon was simply Amožena or Omoženka or "masculine woman" (A transmuted into O; as happened also with "Agni" which transmuted into O; Ogenj or I; "ignite"; Agnistaha as Ognjišče (fireplace). Women who were equal to men... (this is the next answer want to answer to your question "who were Carantanians" (as a society)..., where woman was equal to man. This Democratic law was called Rota (the word remained in Slovene as porota (po = "after") or "Jury" on a court (otherwise it was called Institutio Sclavenica (Slovenika) lex(law); note that from Sclavens (Skolotoi-Veni) came "Sloveni").

http://voices.yahoo.com/carantanian-tribal-society-lived-democratic-principles-1906.html

http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/slovenian_cleveland_thomas_jefferson.jpg

Robert6
30-07-14, 15:29
""Scythian just means "archer"... it's a word based on the same IE root as the word "Shooter".""
In Ossetic it is
æhSgutæ = archers, shooters compare with Ishkuza(Assyrian), and Scythes(Greek)
æhSæg = arher, shooter compare with Sakae

Alan
30-07-14, 15:59
Scythian just means "archer"... it's a word based on the same IE root as the word "Shooter".

Sarmatians were an Iranic-speaking people. The letter "S" in those languages tends to transform into "H",
so, these people could have also been called Hauromatae ( Hrvati, Croats ) or Saurovatae ( Srbi, Serbs ), or later Carantae ( Carantanians, Slovenes ).

Which could be an ancient Thracian ( and later Greek ) word for a people who live behind the Rocky ( Karpe ) mountains ( Carpathians / Carbhatians ).
Thracian language's closest relatives are Iranian languages.

http ://en .wikipedia .org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws


you seem to have good knowledge on these things.

allot of Indo European words which startwith the letter s turn into an h in the Middle Iranic period, to which Sarmatian , Parthian(descend of Median with Scythian admixture) Sassanid( descend of Achamaenid/Old Persian), belonged.
Since Sarmatians are an Middle Iranic linguistic group, their Iranic name is Hauromatae and this is why the Iranic name of Croats starts with H (Hrvat) translated into old Iranic it would have been Srvat. Ironically if I am not wrong Srvat is the Kurdish word for Serbs. Which brings me to the conclusion the names Croat and Serb might have the same root.

In the new Iranic period, to which Kurdish (descend of Parthian), Farsi(descend of Sassanid era Persian), Ossetian (descend of Alanian Saramatic) and Pashto(descend of Bakthrian?) belong, the letter H which previously was a shift from S turns into an X.

Some examples. This is why Kurdish Xwishk, Persian Xahar, Pashto Xor and Ossetian Xo would be backshifted into old Iranic "swishk", "Sahar", "Sor" and "So" which mean "sister" in English and schwester in German.

Sanskrit on the other hand preserved the S and had allot less loudshifts. This can be simply explained with the fact that Sanskrit is seen as the language of holy religion among Indo_Aryans.

SuperStalin
30-07-14, 16:31
Very interesting about the Kurdish word for Serbs!
I think both groups names stem from the same old IE / Iranian root, despite these two peoples being at love and war in the last ~70 years,
they come from the same source, possibly an Iranian horsemen elite which got assimilated into Slavs.

LeBrok
30-07-14, 17:21
Scythian just means "archer"... it's a word based on the same IE root as the word "Shooter".

Sarmatians were an Iranic-speaking people. The letter "S" in those languages tends to transform into "H",
so, these people could have also been called Hauromatae ( Hrvati, Croats ) or Saurovatae ( Srbi, Serbs ), or later Carantae ( Carantanians, Slovenes ).

Which could be an ancient Thracian ( and later Greek ) word for a people who live behind the Rocky ( Karpe ) mountains ( Carpathians / Carbhatians ).
Thracian language's closest relatives are Iranian languages.

http ://en .wikipedia .org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws
Ok, so Thracians spoke Iranian or very similar, as the local substratum before Serbs and Croat arrival. Then Serbs and Croats came as Iranians, and yet they all speak Slavic, at least from 10th century. How can you explain that?

Vedun
30-07-14, 18:52
"
Sarmatians were an Iranic-speaking people. The letter "S" in those languages tends to transform into "H",
so, these people could have also been called Hauromatae ( Hrvati, Croats ) or Saurovatae ( Srbi, Serbs ), or later Carantae ( Carantanians, Slovenes )."

Yeah another pro-Serbian nationalist... Serbs were never called Slovenes. There lived Croatian, Slovenian and Slovak tribes in Carantania but the official language was Slovene. Those are Freising manuscripts from 10th century. The language is not called Serbian, Sarmatian, but Slovenian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freising_manuscripts

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Freising_manuscript.jpg/640px-Freising_manuscript.jpg

Vedun
30-07-14, 18:59
Carantes derives from the tribe of Gorotani (current name in Slovene for Koroška (Carinthia) or Korotan (another transliteration is Carni, which were probably Celtic tribes ). Slovenes called it "Korotan", which is a transmutation of Korostan or Gorostan... However the term Gora, Kir, Kar,... means "mountain" in many languages, not only in Slavic; including in Kiratas (a mongoloid tribe from Nepal).
Serbs carry mainly I2a-P37.2 haplogroup and non-Indo European (African & Semitic) E1b1b1a2 haplogroup. R1a trace is rather a rarity, which means their ancestors almost didn't mix with eastern Slavs and Scythians (Sarmatians) at all.

Sile
30-07-14, 20:34
Very interesting about the Kurdish word for Serbs!
I think both groups names stem from the same old IE / Iranian root, despite these two peoples being at love and war in the last ~70 years,
they come from the same source, possibly an Iranian horsemen elite which got assimilated into Slavs.

Also considering that the thracian found ( 192.1 ) has only positive marker of the ydna of H ....which is basically from Gedrosia ( eastern persia) and that his admixture seems more "french" would indicate a "persian" entrance into europe via the South East balkan route prior to any scythian/Sarmatian movement from the steppes.

Throw in that cyrillic text has never appeared in slovene and croatian lands in the early times is another indicator of non-steppe people. Clearly one might ask, the term slavic which is purely a linguistic term would be of no value for ancient migrational discussions.

Also, as per karafet recent paper ( 2 months ago), which states that the "father " of the R haplogroup people ( which is P ) formed in modern Malaysia and also that haplogroups G, I, J, T, L and H formed all within 6000 years between modern irak and modern india is another indicator that these haplogroups are "iranic" and must have migrated together into SE Europe and the Caucasus. Question is how much of this great "iranic" haplogroup made there way north to form a later scythian group ( with a late arrival of R ).
Next question is - The croats once stated that they where from modern Iran.................is this theory reviving

Yetos
30-07-14, 20:40
Scythian just means "archer"... it's a word based on the same IE root as the word "Shooter".

Sarmatians were an Iranic-speaking people. The letter "S" in those languages tends to transform into "H",
so, these people could have also been called Hauromatae ( Hrvati, Croats ) or Saurovatae ( Srbi, Serbs ), or later Carantae ( Carantanians, Slovenes ).

Which could be an ancient Thracian ( and later Greek ) word for a people who live behind the Rocky ( Karpe ) mountains ( Carpathians / Carbhatians ).
Thracian language's closest relatives are Iranian languages.

http ://en .wikipedia .org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws

no
sauromates its clear Greek, the name herodotos gave them, means Sauro +eye, means lizzard eye people, so it depends if it is an exonym or an esonym,
as exonym we must accept the description name that Greeks gave them 'lizzard eye people'
as an esonym we must secure that it existed accepted and spoken and try to explain it in their own language before compare it with other languages.
besides their flock is described to be tarando means raindeer, no goat no sheep, raindeer as the Saami people today, and !!!! did not spoke IE but learn it from Scythians !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BESIDES THERE WAS AN AVAR TRIBE CALLED HRPT
any suggestion about that?

Sile
30-07-14, 20:44
Carantes derives from the tribe of Gorotani (current name in Slovene for Koroška (Carinthia) or Korotan (another transliteration is Carni, which were probably Celtic tribes ). Slovenes called it "Korotan", which is a transmutation of Korostan or Gorostan... However the term Gora, Kir, Kar,... means "mountain" in many languages, not only in Slavic; including in Kiratas (a mongoloid tribe from Nepal).
Serbs carry mainly I2a-P37.2 haplogroup and non-Indo European (African & Semitic) E1b1b1a2 haplogroup. R1a trace is rather a rarity, which means their ancestors almost didn't mix with eastern Slavs and Scythians (Sarmatians) at all.

studied serbs have always indicated that the bulk ( 70% ) of the serbs are ancient thracian triballi tribe ............they have been stating this from early middle-ages to the present . They also state they are "pure" in the sense that the celtic absorption of the illyrian tribes prior to the entrance of the Romans was halted by the Thracian triballi ...........in other words .....a purity of race exists.
Since I haplogroup originated somewhere in modern Iran , then an early neolitihic ( or earlier) entrance into Europe via the balkans is the only scenario

Yetos
30-07-14, 20:44
you seem to have good knowledge on these things.

allot of Indo European words which startwith the letter s turn into an h in the Middle Iranic period, to which Sarmatian , Parthian(descend of Median with Scythian admixture) Sassanid( descend of Achamaenid/Old Persian), belonged.
Since Sarmatians are an Middle Iranic linguistic group, their Iranic name is Hauromatae and this is why the Iranic name of Croats starts with H (Hrvat) translated into old Iranic it would have been Srvat. Ironically if I am not wrong Srvat is the Kurdish word for Serbs. Which brings me to the conclusion the names Croat and Serb might have the same root.

In the new Iranic period, to which Kurdish (descend of Parthian), Farsi(descend of Sassanid era Persian), Ossetian (descend of Alanian Saramatic) and Pashto(descend of Bakthrian?) belong, the letter H which previously was a shift from S turns into an X.

Some examples. This is why Kurdish Xwishk, Persian Xahar, Pashto Xor and Ossetian Xo would be backshifted into old Iranic "swishk", "Sahar", "Sor" and "So" which mean "sister" in English and schwester in German.

Sanskrit on the other hand preserved the S and had allot less loudshifts. This can be simply explained with the fact that Sanskrit is seen as the language of holy religion among Indo_Aryans.

No,

I gave answer in my above post,
Sarmatians learn IE.

Alan
30-07-14, 20:54
Ok, so Thracians spoke Iranian or very similar, as the local substratum before Serbs and Croat arrival. Then Serbs and Croats came as Iranians, and yet they all speak Slavic, at least from 10th century. How can you explain that?

I personally don't believe that Thracians were Indo_Iranian but as I myself wrote in some times earlier, the Thracians were probably the closest you get to Indo_Iranian speakers. And If I am not mistaken, Thracian burials had this typical Iranic mtDNA U2a and HV.

Serbs and Croats are Slavs no doubt but there is definitely an Iranic admixture into it, since both names are Iranic.

Alan
30-07-14, 20:54
No,

I gave answer in my above post,
Sarmatians learn IE.


As far as I know Sarmatians are Indo European of the Iranic branch.

Alan
30-07-14, 21:00
Carantes derives from the tribe of Gorotani (current name in Slovene for Koroška (Carinthia) or Korotan (another transliteration is Carni, which were probably Celtic tribes ). Slovenes called it "Korotan", which is a transmutation of Korostan or Gorostan... However the term Gora, Kir, Kar,... means "mountain" in many languages, not only in Slavic; including in Kiratas (a mongoloid tribe from Nepal).


Read here.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30052-Iranic-words-in-European-languages?p=435785&viewfull=1#post435785 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30052-Iranic-words-in-European-languages?p=435785&viewfull=1#post435785)


and here
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30250-A-Stunning-Find-in-Kurdistan?p=435779&viewfull=1#post435779

Yetos
30-07-14, 21:13
Carantes derives from the tribe of Gorotani (current name in Slovene for Koroška (Carinthia) or Korotan (another transliteration is Carni, which were probably Celtic tribes ). Slovenes called it "Korotan", which is a transmutation of Korostan or Gorostan... However the term Gora, Kir, Kar,... means "mountain" in many languages, not only in Slavic; including in Kiratas (a mongoloid tribe from Nepal).
Serbs carry mainly I2a-P37.2 haplogroup and non-Indo European (African & Semitic) E1b1b1a2 haplogroup. R1a trace is rather a rarity, which means their ancestors almost didn't mix with eastern Slavs and Scythians (Sarmatians) at all.

so Carantani Carniola Carnia Carinthia all the same from Gora? or from the same root of Carnios Apollo (meat eater Apollo a minor asian Apollo), or from Turkish Kara Dag dan = Black forest, black hills/mountain,
Besides the Slavic Goranje kor etc as Greek ορος κορυφη (Kur+υβος) is after Summerian Kur mountain

Yetos
30-07-14, 21:18
As far as I know Sarmatians are Indo European of the Iranic branch.

Herodotos the first who wrote about them, names them sauromates (lizzard eye in pure Greek, or if we use Pelasgian (exist also in Summerian) mat (land field area) then saur(o)landers) neighbors of scythians who breed raindeer (no goat or sheep or horse) and learn IE by scythians (they spoke the scythian language but not as scythians, cause they learn the language from the scythians)

Alan
30-07-14, 21:40
Herodotos the first who wrote about them, names them sauromates (lizzard eye in pure Greek, or if we use Pelasgian (exist also in Summerian) mat (land field area) then saur(o)landers) neighbors of scythians who breed raindeer (no goat or sheep or horse) and learn IE by scythians (they spoke the scythian language but not as scythians, cause they learn the language from the scythians)


According to Heredotus and historically they came from further East of Scythia(east of the Caspian). In this area no Uralic people existed. The name Sarmatian might be Greek, but there is no doubt that Sarmatians are Indo Europeans and were not simply language shifters. herding raindeer is no prove for this. In fact raindeer wouldbe breed were there isn't enough alternative.

Also Heredotus did not wrote that they adopted their language from Scythian. Heredotus wrote they are descend of Scythian who mixed with Amazons.

Yetos
30-07-14, 23:11
According to Heredotus and historically they came from further East of Scythia(east of the Caspian). In this area no Uralic people existed. The name Sarmatian might be Greek, but there is no doubt that Sarmatians are Indo Europeans and were not simply language shifters. herding raindeer is no prove for this. In fact raindeer wouldbe breed were there isn't enough alternative.

Also Heredotus did not wrote that they adopted their language from Scythian. Heredotus wrote they are descend of Scythian who mixed with Amazons.

yes Scythian men Amazon women, but he also says that went away from Scythians following their own culture,

and Strabo places them south of KeltosKythae!!!

BESIDES WE KNOW FROM HISTORY THAT SCYTHIANS MOVED WEST, THEY EVEN CARRY THEIR DEAD TO FIND A PLACE CALLED GERROS Γερρος
surely not Greece but Ger comparing Germ (warm?)

Alan
30-07-14, 23:15
yes Scythian men Amazon women, but he also says that went away from Scythians following their own culture,

and Strabo places them south of KeltosKythae!!!

Just as I said, Uralic speakers lived north of Scythians not South. South of "Kelto_Scythae (whatever this is) is 1. the Caucasus, 2. Central Asia, 3.South Europe.

Yetos
30-07-14, 23:29
Just as I said, Uralic speakers lived north of Scythians not South. South of "Kelto_Scythae (whatever this is) is 1. the Caucasus, 2. Central Asia, 3.South Europe.

keltoScythae is somewhere east of Bastarnae (interesting word) around Baltic lands
Amazons are connected with Kimmerians and not with Skolotoi/Ashkuz
Sarmatians could be a Thracian female-Scythian male admixture.
tauriski where the first historical habbitants of Crimea but after we find them in Istria !!!!

Alan
31-07-14, 00:09
keltoScythae is somewhere east of Bastarnae (interesting word) around Baltic lands
Amazons are connected with Kimmerians and not with Skolotoi/Ashkuz
Sarmatians could be a Thracian female-Scythian male admixture.
tauriski where the first historical habbitants of Crimea but after we find them in Istria !!!!

Ok good enough, but Cimmerians were predominantly an Iranic speaking group too. But they were close to Thracians must have been Thracian admixed.

[QUOTE][/The Cimmerians or Kimmerians (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Κιμμέριοι (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BF%C F%82), Kimmerioi) were an ancient Indo-European people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) living north of the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus) and the Sea of Azov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov) as early as 1300 BC[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#cite_note-1) until they were driven southward by the Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) into Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) during the 8th century BC. Linguistically they are usually regarded as Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples), or possibly Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) with an Iranian ruling class.QUOTE]

SuperStalin
31-07-14, 09:34
I see a lot of confusion here.

Know this! 10th century is a whole different world from the 7th century, which is a totally different world from the 5th century.

Most people ascribe a modern mentality to these ancient people. They weren't nationalistic, they didn't fight to preserve their language,
they just used whatever they thought was beneficial at the time. Multi-ethnic tribal confederacies formed and dissolved, and the warrior elites were never a majority,
the majority was ordinary peasants, but only the elites left a trace for historians.

So, today some historians and most laymen ( wrongly ) tend to think that ancient states had firm and defined borders and identities, and that the usual ethnic composition was just like today
( today, people live in countries where the ethnic majority usually defines the identity, name and language of the entire population - back in ancient times, an alien tribe of 10.000 warriors could subdue 500.000 peasants,
and form the nobility of that mass of people, but from then on there was no blueprint on what would happen next.

There were no modern militaries occupying countries ( like Germans in Poland, or USA in Iraq ), back then, the people couldn't care less if they were ruled over by Avars or Goths, just as long as the taxes weren't too heavy,
thus there was little resistance from the common folk to new invaders.

When Ostrogoths "conquered" Italy, they weren't like the wehrmacht - they were more akin to a military hunta who gradually won political power within a state.

When Slavs came to the Balkans, they weren't like a modern invading force rolling with tanks and razing villages. The locals didn't define themselves as Illyrian or Thracian - the locals at the time probably were fully integrated into an Eastern Roman Empire style of life - they probably used Latin and Greek language and names and surnames, and probably some still used Dardanian, or whatever at home.

Ancient Empires were more like USA ( a melting pot ) rather than ethno-nationalists like Nazi Germany. The "barbarian" tribes weren't much different in that aspect. They had a tribal identity, but knew that they have to be flexible rulers ( just like their Roman or Persian or Chinese imperial role models ).

There's also a lot of confusion around haplogroups. Early medieval people were already mixed - for tens of thousands of years already!
All of the haplogroups came from Africa across Asia, and into Europe. If you roll back through pre-history, you'd probably discover that R1a/R1b or their ancestor "P" had some proto-mongolian features, and/or blonde and red hair unlike almost anything we can see today... and then many generations later, in 4000 BCE they entered Europe to find Europe was already populated by J and E, and G, and I etc.

But was it their first time they came across individuals belonging to other haplogroups ? No! These earlier populations in Europe also moved from Europe into Asia, or back into Africa.

The only borders that defined these ancient times were natural obstacles, like the Sahara, the seas, the mountains. That's the only reason why you don't get to see ( more modern ) sub-saharan African DNA in European populations, just like there's little European genetic influence southeast of the Himalayas.

Robert6
31-07-14, 15:38
""names them sauromates (lizzard eye in pure Greek)""
SauroMatae have Iranian etimology,
Sarmatian
man=man,
matae=men,
Modern Ossetian
mojnae=man, husband,
mojtae=men, husbands
Sauro-Matae(Men in Leather) around Don river
Iaxa-Matae(Royal men) around Don river
Iaza-Matae(Holly men) around Don river
Sar-Matae(Head men, Upper men, Mountaineers) in Caucasus mountains

Robert6
31-07-14, 16:07
""According to Heredotus and historically they came from further East of Scythia(east of the Caspian).""
About Scythians, according to Diodorus Siculus, they came from Araxes river, and according to Herodotus the Scythians passed the Araxes river, the first Scythian Kings (Ishpaka, Madyes, Protothyes/Partitava/Bartatua) were mentioned to the south of Araxes river

albanopolis
31-07-14, 16:19
About Scythians, according to Diodorus they came from Araxes river, and according to Herodotus the Scythians passed the Araxes river, the first Scythian Kings (Ishpaka, Madyes, Protothyes/Partitava/Bartatua) were mentioned to the south of Araxes river

I don't know much about the topic people are arguing here, but I have to remind people that the Greek historian Herodotus is called "the father of lies". Its not wise to refer his accounts as true. Keep in mind he traveled in horseback and had no time to know everything.

Robert6
31-07-14, 16:24
"""GERROS Γερρος """
According to Herodotus nobody could find the Scythian tombs, these tombs were in Gerros region and close to Gerros river, it is possible that Scythians misinformed Herodotus about where the river Gerros was.
After the Herodotus, by other Historians and Geographers the river Gerros Γερρος was placed in the Caucasus

Robert6
31-07-14, 17:07
I don't know much about the topic people are arguing here, but I have to remind people that the Greek historian Herodotus is called "the father of lies". Its not wise to refer his accounts as true. Keep in mind he traveled in horseback and had no time to know everything.

Some Athenians called him "the father of lies"
Others called him "The Father of History"

Vedun
31-07-14, 19:13
Why don't you open some Afganic and Iranic, etc topic? What has this to do with the Slovenians here?

Yetos
31-07-14, 20:55
I don't know much about the topic people are arguing here, but I have to remind people that the Greek historian Herodotus is called "the father of lies". Its not wise to refer his accounts as true. Keep in mind he traveled in horseback and had no time to know everything.



you like it or not, fits you or not HE IS CALLED FATHER OF HISTORY, , and the descriptions he gives comparing later historians are at very high lvl correct accurant, besides the difrences among him and others are not to be considered,

Yetos
31-07-14, 21:01
"""GERROS Γερρος """
According to Herodotus nobody could find the Scythian tombs, these tombs were in Gerros region and close to Gerros river, it is possible that Scythians misinformed Herodotus about where the river Gerros was.
After the Herodotus, by other Historians and Geographers the river Gerros Γερρος was placed in the Caucasus

hmm so gerros could be modern Georgia by sources you have?

or a warmer land, a warm spring, etc

Yetos
31-07-14, 21:04
Why don't you open some Afganic and Iranic, etc topic? What has this to do with the Slovenians here?

because Slavic are connected with Scythian like milk and fungi in yogurt.

Yetos
31-07-14, 21:09
@ Alan
@ Robert6

in descriptions of herodotos we see some customs that existed in vikings, and even in 20th century in India,
like the burial of a woman next to dead husband.

if it is so, then Scythian reached and might overpass Baltic sea, and enter central India,
do yoy thing that is possible?

Robert6
31-07-14, 21:28
@ Alan
@ Robert6

in descriptions of herodotos we see some customs that existed in vikings, and even in 20th century in India,
like the burial of a woman next to dead husband.

if it is so, then Scythian reached and might overpass Baltic sea, and enter central India,
do yoy thing that is possible?
it is a Sati practice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

Maykop(proto-Kurgan) culture in western Caucasus had Sati practice
And Neolithic Globular Amphora culture(haplogroup G) in Poland-Germany had Sati practice

Robert6
31-07-14, 22:02
hmm so gerros could be modern Georgia by sources you have?

or a warmer land, a warm spring, etc

The tribe Gerri lived around the river Gerrus it was in Cauc.Albania or in Sarmatia Asiatica(Caucasus)

Some scholars say that Ptolemy's Gerrus river is Koisu or Terek river or Kuma river

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Ptolemy_Cosmographia_1467_-_Central_Russia_and_Sarmatia.jpg

http://books.google.gr/books?id=Q00ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=Gerrus+An+Introduction+to+the+Study+of+Ancient+ Geography&source=bl&ots=bDoCcfDahH&sig=tz6B4jpFV0In8FvOTlBmv2hBxck&hl=el&sa=X&ei=y53aU4ubLeT8ywOv8IKACw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Gerrus%20An%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Study%20 of%20Ancient%20Geography&f=false

Robert6
31-07-14, 22:06
it is a Sati practice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

Maykop(proto-Kurgan) culture in western Caucasus had Sati practice
And Neolithic Globular Amphora culture(haplogroup G) in Poland-Germany had Sati practice
Little about the Globular amphora culture here
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28424-Y-Chromosomes-of-Corded-Ware-at-Wroclaw-Jagodno-(SW-Poland)?p=435861&viewfull=1#post435861

Yetos
31-07-14, 22:09
it is a Sati practice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)

Maykop(proto-Kurgan) culture in western Caucasus had Sati practice
And Neolithic Globular Amphora culture(haplogroup G) in Poland-Germany had Sati practice

so Herulli and Vikings could adopt it from Globular amphora cult?
or came from Asia to Europe and ended (time end) in vikings?

Yetos
31-07-14, 22:14
The tribe Gerri lived around the river Gerrus it was in Cauc.Albania or in Sarmatia Asiatica(Caucasus)

Some scholars say that Ptolemy's Gerrus river is Koisu or Terek river or Kuma river

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Ptolemy_Cosmographia_1467_-_Central_Russia_and_Sarmatia.jpg

http://books.google.gr/books?id=Q00ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=Gerrus+An+Introduction+to+the+Study+of+Ancient+ Geography&source=bl&ots=bDoCcfDahH&sig=tz6B4jpFV0In8FvOTlBmv2hBxck&hl=el&sa=X&ei=y53aU4ubLeT8ywOv8IKACw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Gerrus%20An%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Study%20 of%20Ancient%20Geography&f=false

strange cause Γερρος reminds me the Γηραιοι Γραιοι Graioi Greeks although I don't say that scythians search for Greece, the sound simmilarity is ...

Robert6
31-07-14, 22:22
so Herulli and Vikings could adopt it from Globular amphora cult?
or came from Asia to Europe and ended (time end) in vikings?

The people of Globular amphora culture migrated out of central Europe towards Caucasus and Asia long time ago.


So possibly it is more recent,
pre-Vikings(?) were influenced by Huns(?).
Vikings had the "Sword from Hunnic land".

Robert6
31-07-14, 22:28
strange cause Γερρος reminds me the Γηραιοι Γραιοι Graioi Greeks although I don't say that scythians search for Greece, the sound simmilarity is ...
The Ossetic Zerond/Zherond=Old man, Old woman, have the same meaning to Greek *Gerondas Γέροντας

Yetos
31-07-14, 22:59
The Ossetic Zerond/Zherond=Old man, Old woman, have the same meaning to Greek *Gerondas Γέροντας

interesting,

so the Scythian holy place was a river which could have the meaning of elder/elders land where they carry their elders and dead called Gerros
in controversary the Greek had a holly place, a river where they gather to make games (athletics) the younger ones Ellanas river (eel river),
but the word holly\sacred in Greek is Ιερος and proto sound had an almost no hear Γ (Γ)Ιερος

again Headache with IE similarities

SuperStalin
31-07-14, 23:51
IndoEuropean root *Ser = to bind, but together + martyja *mortals/humans.... ( men bound together - in a tribe ? )

albanopolis
01-08-14, 00:20
you like it or not, fits you or not HE IS CALLED FATHER OF HISTORY, , and the descriptions he gives comparing later historians are at very high lvl correct accurant, besides the difrences among him and others are not to be considered,

Yes, Father of lies, too. Historians say that if one reads his historical records will find so many contradictions that, the whole his accounts become worthless.

Vedun
01-08-14, 11:02
Off topic, nationalistic/racist, ... and crazy.

Vedun
01-08-14, 12:12
Off topic, nationalistic/racist, ... and crazy.

SuperStalin
01-08-14, 12:25
currently out of context.

Ike
01-08-14, 15:49
Off topic, nationalistic/racist, ... and crazy.

Vedun
01-08-14, 17:08
Off topic, nationalistic/racist, ... and crazy.

Yetos
01-08-14, 20:14
wrong thread, Democratic/pluralism, .... and logical

:laughing: