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luis77
27-08-11, 15:58
For many years people had wrong ideas about Moorish influence in Portugal. But recently, admixture and haplogroup analysis (Y-Dna and mtDna) on large samples both prove that Moorish admixture is real in some Iberian ethnic groups like Portuguese.


"North African" admixture in Portuguese:

1) Dodecad : about 9% with a few individuals over 10%!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

North African/Berber: 6.8
East African:1.2
Neo African:0.7

2) Eurogenes : 13-14%

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/neolithic-belt-and-surrounds-at-k8.html

3) Dna Tribes : 13-14%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_Tribes#Sample_Results_.28August_2011.29.5B11.5 D


These results confirm what was reported by recent haplogroup studies that analysed large samples of Portuguese:

1) North African Y-Dna in Portugal: 47/659 > 7%

"Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe", Capelli 2009

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008258t1.html#figure-title

2) North African mtDna in Portugal (L, U6 Hgs): 55/594 >9%

"Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans", Achilli 2007

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/table/TB2/

Knovas
27-08-11, 16:20
¿Wich is the purpose of the post? It's perfectly known that there is a little North African influence between Iberians. Pure Europeans almost doesn't exist, except for the Basques and some Baltics.

Non European admixture in Iberians is not higher than the one you can find between Dutch, French, English, Germans, etc. The total European score is more or less the same.

¿So what?

Wilhelm2
27-08-11, 16:58
Well, the y-dna E-M81 is also found in France at 3%, (and there was a study with Andalusians showing less E-M81 than French), and mtDNA U6 has also been found in France (Brittany, Limousin, etc). As for mtDNA L, the study of Rhouda et al. fins 0% in a sample of 686 spaniards. And García et al. finds mtDNA L in Europe even in Denmark :

Hérault (Languedoc) 2.4 %
Rhône (Lyonnais) 4.4 %
Vendée and Vienne (Poitou) 0.8 %
Calvados and Seine-Maritime (Normandy) 1.8 %
Somme (Picardie) 1.3 %
France Miscellanea 0.6 %
Scotland 0.1 %
England 0.7 %
Great Britain 0.9 %
North-Germany and Denmark 0.7 %

As for the North-African there are other runs from Eurogenes with much lower north-african, anyways it doesn't make them less european, since all europeans have non-european admixture, for example the rest of Europe has more West-Asian than Iberia, or more Southwest-Asia, or more East-Asian, etc. The european scores are the same between Iberia and the rest of Europe, or even higher, see this map of European admixture from Dodecad :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg607/scaled.php?server=607&filename=euroadmix.png&res=medium

Cambrius (The Red)
27-08-11, 18:29
For many years people had wrong ideas about Moorish influence in Portugal. But recently, admixture and haplogroup analysis (Y-Dna and mtDna) on large samples both prove that Moorish admixture is real in some Iberian ethnic groups like Portuguese.


"North African" admixture in Portuguese:

1) Dodecad : about 9% with a few individuals over 10%!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

North African/Berber: 6.8
East African:1.2
Neo African:0.7

2) Eurogenes : 13-14%

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/neolithic-belt-and-surrounds-at-k8.html

3) Dna Tribes : 13-14%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_Tribes#Sample_Results_.28August_2011.29.5B11.5 D


These results confirm what was reported by recent haplogroup studies that analysed large samples of Portuguese:

1) North African Y-Dna in Portugal: 47/659 > 7%

"Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe", Capelli 2009

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008258t1.html#figure-title

2) North African mtDna in Portugal (L, U6 Hgs): 55/594 >9%

"Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans", Achilli 2007

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/table/TB2/

What Dodecad REALLY confirmed is that the Portuguese are very similar to other Western European populations, with rather high (for southern Europe) north European and north Atlantic genetic affinities. By the way, readings of 2% or lower are considered as genetic "noise" or "static". The fact of the matter is that any North African admixture is quite minimal and very much dominated by total European scores of between 85 and 87%. It's time to move on.

p.s. the figures you attributed to Eurogenes are incorrect. According to the latest Eurogenes run, total African for Portugal is ~ 2.7%. Also, since when is DNA Tribes a reliable source for anything genetic?:useless: Please, let's stop the charlatan games.

Goga
27-08-11, 20:39
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg607/scaled.php?server=607&filename=euroadmix.png&res=mediumThat's Right! If you do consider R1b, R1a, I and N as European.

According to some people on this forum R1b is not native to Europe and N isn't European either, more likely Euroasian...

sparkey
28-08-11, 05:29
That's Right! If you do consider R1b, R1a, I and N as European.

According to some people on this forum R1b is not native to Europe and N isn't European either, more likely Euroasian...

It's important not to let terms like "European" and "North African" in autosomal studies confuse you. "European" admixture doesn't mean Paleolithic European, or that the DNA that represents that population originated in Europe. If that was the case, there's no way we'd be seeing Tunisia as 36% European. It's just a comparison of modern populations and how much they've apparently admixed over time with one another. So a more "European" population isn't necessarily more Cro-Magnon, they just have less admixture with those who aren't marked as "European."

Goga
28-08-11, 15:44
It's important not to let terms like "European" and "North African" in autosomal studies confuse you. "European" admixture doesn't mean Paleolithic European, or that the DNA that represents that population originated in Europe. If that was the case, there's no way we'd be seeing Tunisia as 36% European. It's just a comparison of modern populations and how much they've apparently admixed over time with one another. So a more "European" population isn't necessarily more Cro-Magnon, they just have less admixture with those who aren't marked as "European."
Yes, sometimes these terms confuse me very much.

They do consider West Europe, East Europe and the Mediterranean as 1 group. While there are huge differences between these groups. West Europe has almost no R1a, while East Europe has almost no R1b. Basques and Russians are absolutely not the same, almost like the affinity between Africans and Chinese. West Asia is closer to East Europe that West Europe is. It would be less confusing if they used colours or numbers or something.

Btw, if it would be a West Asian CENTRIC map, it would be in places like Geogia, Armenia, Kurdistan etc. almost 100% too! I don't spent too much time - attention - on such maps...

Wilhelm
08-09-11, 17:59
Yes, sometimes these terms confuse me very much.

They do consider West Europe, East Europe and the Mediterranean as 1 group. While there are huge differences between these groups. West Europe has almost no R1a, while East Europe has almost no R1b. Basques and Russians are absolutely not the same, almost like the affinity between Africans and Chinese. West Asia is closer to East Europe that West Europe is. It would be less confusing if they used colours or numbers or something.

Btw, if it would be a West Asian CENTRIC map, it would be in places like Geogia, Armenia, Kurdistan etc. almost 100% too! I don't spent too much time - attention - on such maps...
That's completely wrong. Autosomally East and West Europe are very close, there is an overlapp.

nuno77
09-04-18, 13:33
I would be cautious about using the term "Moorish". It has a strong religious conotation.
Most of 711 AD invaders were North African Berbers that were subjugated by the Islamic Arab invaders. I think these Arab (mostly J1) invaders didn't leave a big genetic footprint.

North Africa and Southern Europe share a lot of genetics affinities: the whole Mediterranean does. Just google "Genographic reference populations".

See what these scientists say about the 65%-35%:
Cerezo M, Achilli A, Olivieri A, Perego UA, Gómez-Carballa A, Brisighelli F, et al. (2012) Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe. Genome Res 22: 821–826. pmid:22454235

Georgewalley
15-05-18, 21:12
6-7 north african is basicall nothing if we consider even Oetzi scored 5 percent North African. Dodecad is outdated calculator anyway and gives noisy results, often completely inaccurate ones.

Angela
16-05-18, 19:13
6-7 north african is basicall nothing if we consider even Oetzi scored 5 percent North African. Dodecad is outdated calculator anyway and gives noisy results, often completely inaccurate ones.

Indeed. There's dstats, and lots of other much more recent programs in terms of statistics. All of them find North African in Iberians, however. It's also found in Southern Italians, of course, although at lower percentages. Everyone in Europe is a mix of different groups of ancestors. No need to be defensive about it.

Oh, by the way, I want to thank you for your sweet pm. However, just for the record, I'm not 60 (Would it be so terrible if I were? Is that called ageism?), I'm not autistic (We have quite a few people here who have said they're on that spectrum, although I'm not. Do you mean to insult them all?), I'm not sexless, I'm not "butthurt", and I don't have a "Levantine" hooked nose. (I guess that's a bad thing in your book? Do all the people with whom you communicate on this and other sites know that's how you feel? Would that be considered "hate speech" on college campuses and by employers? Or perhaps you use another name on anthrogenica, the apricity, and elsewhere? I know that on those sites they don't seem to care if deliberately false information is posted, so perhaps you feel more comfortable and thus post more there?

Anyway, just wanted to clear some things up. Have a nice day. Sincerely, Angela :)

Nick123321
19-06-18, 21:07
Thats absolutely right, I dont think the world was expecting such a high percentage of Atlantic genes in the Portuguese. Lets take a quick history lesson and look at the Suebi and later Visigoths in Northwestern Spain/North portugal for 300 years (full assimilation years). When you consider the initial habitation of Suebi in Northwestern Spain/North Portugal during 409AD and Visigoth rule following “until” 711AD, that is 300 years of rule. Estimates assume 5,000 Suebi and 25,000 Visiogths invaded the Iberian peninsula, which is a small invading population comparatively. However in terms of how much these medievil germanic people have retained in the roots of Northwestern Spain, is underated. Although 300 years of germanic rule is shorter than 500 years of muslim rule (and 700 years for Spain), Germanic control was still very long. Futhermore, and far more important to consider, the Germanic rule that integrated into the Celtiberian Peninsula were the exact same decendents that established the kingdoms of the north to reconqor the south during the reconqusta. In contrast, the muslim moors that populated the peninsula from the south were expelled from Spain and Portugal, and we know the process was rather successful in terms of the cause considering only 5% on average of the entire Iberian Peninsula consists of North African genetics (with the addition of 2-3% native haplogroup U6 which is not present in North Africa today, denoting a very amcient branch of Haplogroup U). None the less, Germanic genetics is evident, particularly in Gallecea where a maximum of 3-4% of the genetic pool can be found in North Western Spain amd Northern Portugal. This shows the full integration of the Germanic tribes considering their already small numbers compared to the native population (by the time the Germanic tribes settled, their Germamic haplogroups were more dilluted).

In terms of language retention and influence:

Although I have yet to find a study that shows the exact explination as to why Portuguese phonetics are further away from Latin than Spanish, by observing strong Celtic influence in NW Spain/N Portugal plus 300 years of Suebi/Visigoth rule in Northwestern Spain and North Portugal, and by comparing modern day Germanic influenced languages like French, it seems evident to me that Portuguese (because of the countries Northern birthplace) has retained more Celtic/Germamic languistic influence than its Spanish neighbors (who became highly “Castillinized” by their dictator). It is estimated that portuguese contains some 1,200-1,500 Celtic/Germanic words and 500 Arabic words, while Spain shares 8,000 Arabic words.

Angela
20-06-18, 01:02
Thats absolutely right, I dont think the world was expecting such a high percentage of Atlantic genes in the Portuguese. Lets take a quick history lesson and look at the Suebi and later Visigoths in Northwestern Spain/North portugal for 300 years (full assimilation years). When you consider the initial habitation of Suebi in Northwestern Spain/North Portugal during 409AD and Visigoth rule following “until” 711AD, that is 300 years of rule. Estimates assume 5,000 Suebi and 25,000 Visiogths invaded the Iberian peninsula, which is a small invading population comparatively. However in terms of how much these medievil germanic people have retained in the roots of Northwestern Spain, is underated. Although 300 years of germanic rule is shorter than 500 years of muslim rule (and 700 years for Spain), Germanic control was still very long. Futhermore, and far more important to consider, the Germanic rule that integrated into the Celtiberian Peninsula were the exact same decendents that established the kingdoms of the north to reconqor the south during the reconqusta. In contrast, the muslim moors that populated the peninsula from the south were expelled from Spain and Portugal, and we know the process was rather successful in terms of the cause considering only 5% on average of the entire Iberian Peninsula consists of North African genetics (with the addition of 2-3% native haplogroup U6 which is not present in North Africa today, denoting a very amcient branch of Haplogroup U). None the less, Germanic genetics is evident, particularly in Gallecea where a maximum of 3-4% of the genetic pool can be found in North Western Spain amd Northern Portugal. This shows the full integration of the Germanic tribes considering their already small numbers compared to the native population (by the time the Germanic tribes settled, their Germamic haplogroups were more dilluted).

In terms of language retention and influence:

Although I have yet to find a study that shows the exact explination as to why Portuguese phonetics are further away from Latin than Spanish, by observing strong Celtic influence in NW Spain/N Portugal plus 300 years of Suebi/Visigoth rule in Northwestern Spain and North Portugal, and by comparing modern day Germanic influenced languages like French, it seems evident to me that Portuguese (because of the countries Northern birthplace) has retained more Celtic/Germamic languistic influence than its Spanish neighbors (who became highly “Castillinized” by their dictator). It is estimated that portuguese contains some 1,200-1,500 Celtic/Germanic words and 500 Arabic words, while Spain shares 8,000 Arabic words.

Have you ever read a genetics paper? There isn't very much "Suebi" or "Germanic" ancestry in the Portuguese.

See where you are? See where the Germans are?

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/nature07331-f1.2-774974.jpg

I think you're on the wrong forum.

nuno77
24-06-18, 11:24
When you mention "Atlantic genes" to which haplogroups are you referring to?
The Celtic ones or the Germanic ones?


NW Iberia is very much Atlanto-Celtic: R1b L-21.


The Germanic Suebi established their capital in Bracara Augusta, the modern city of Braga and former capital of Roman Gallaecia. That would explain the I y-dna in N Portugal.
Visigoths and Alans also passed through N Iberia.


Talking about genetic diseases: it is said that "familial amyloidotic polyneuropathy" came from the Vikings.
It is very prevalent in the NW coast of Portugal: Póvoa de Varzim, Vila do Conde, Braga, Barcelos, Matosinhos.

Muhammad Isa
18-08-18, 04:49
Nuno77

Sou da Vila do Conde e sou i-m253 haplogroup

Nick123321
23-08-18, 02:10
Lol. Thats picture doesnt represent anything other than averages. My point is, Portuguese and Spanish have a bit over 50% Atlantic + Baltic, while the English have 75% and Germans around 70%, Italians on the other hand around 30% on average between North and South. What im saying is, there is not much of a difference between Western European countries with one another

Angela
23-08-18, 05:07
Sorry, buddy, there's no way anyone could ever mistake the results of a Spaniard or Portuguese for those of someone from Great Britain or even northern France. They wouldn't plot anywhere near each other either. You're just going to have to accept that you're Southern Europeans. :)

Plus, the days for using calculators based on modern populations are over and done.

If you want to know which French people some Iberians resemble it's people from the area of southwest France and to some extent those of northern Italy
.
According to the authors Spanish North is Pais Vasco.


https://f-origin.hypotheses.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/727/files/2015/06/Haak-et-al-2015-Figure-3-Admixture-Proportions-in-Modern-DNA-With-Linguistic-and-Historical-Origins-Added.png

davef
23-08-18, 06:00
Lol. Thats picture doesnt represent anything other than averages. My point is, Portuguese and Spanish have a bit over 50% Atlantic + Baltic, while the English have 75% and Germans around 70%, Italians on the other hand around 30% on average between North and South. What im saying is, there is not much of a difference between Western European countries with one another
Actually going by that pca posted above iberians are in their own unique group. That's not a bad thing, btw.

Salento
23-08-18, 06:11
Actually going by that pca posted above iberians are in their own unique group. That's not a bad thing, btw.

If Portuguese are different from Spaniards, they should split Iberians in 2. ;)

Nick123321
12-02-19, 06:38
Lol their is nothing to be sorry for buddy, I'm just saying for a southern European country, Portuguese plot with French, West Germans and English in the top 20 reference populations after every region in Spain, Southwest French, North and Central Italy. The difference is us south West euros have about 20% less northern and western european (Atlantic/baltic) and more diverse mediteranid autosomal DNA
Im sorry for you that we are so similar.
I know a red headed blue eyed English guy who plotted low 3's on the GEDmatch calculator for English and on his top 20 reference populations showed Galician. He wasn't surprised at all, do you read ancient history?

Nick123321
12-02-19, 06:47
It's funny because the attitude of geneticists online want to believe southern Europe is so different then the rest of europe, often Spanish and Portuguese are attacked. If that was the case we would be seeing scores of South Western europeans plotting reference populations with Moroccans, Algerians and other non european populations. This isn't the case at all however, there are many south western Europeans who plot closer to english than even South Italy or Greece. This isn't an anomaly, anyone who picks up a history book will know about ancient migrations from western europe into Iberia and close ties and the oldest alliance in the world between Portugal and England (the Portuguese-Anglo Alliance).
Despite these facts solidified by tangiable scientific study via DNA samples and multi million sample databases, people still think Spain and Portugal are so different than the rest of europe. We are unique and very similar at the same time. Not trying to say anyone is better than anyone else, just giving facts, unbiased by the way, because honestly screw disinformation. But yall can spew hate all you want, hopefully someone reading this has half a sense

Ygorcs
12-02-19, 08:27
All Europeans are pretty similar in a large scale picture, Finns and Saami being relative outliers, but that does not mean they cannot be easily and clearly distinguished (or at least their averages, not considering intermediary border populations and outliers). You just have to apply a higher resolution to see all the difference, because Europeans are ultimately much more homogeneous than people of many parts of Africa or even South Asia. But still if Iberians are "like Northwestern Europeans" only with minus 20% Atlantic admixture and much more Mediterranean contributions, and they only plot as a reference population for those people if you include the 20 (not 5 or 10) top results, then I am pretty sure they form their own cluster. That does not mean they are not similar to other West Europeans, but, well, it is just a fact they could never be mistaken (as an average population) with them. North Italians and Southwest French are much closer, though.

Carlos
12-02-19, 13:30
10731
10732
10733

These are my results. Africa appears, evidently I am closer to Africa than other countries in Europe, and I did not expect a much higher percentage of Africa either because it is something that one feels in one way or another long before all this industry of genetic testing had developed.

Perhaps the view that foreigners have about Iberia is due in large part to the Black Legend, negative publicity. Romantic European travelers writers who traveled to Spain saw four monuments and a half and fantasized too much about Iberia influencing and forging an erroneous idea of Iberia in the European populations of the time. And finally the isolation of Spain during the Franco dictatorship. But really for us the 800 years of the Muslim era in Spain is only a paragraph in our vast history with which modern Spanish does not identify, perhaps because its end is carried out in an organized way unlike other peoples and cultures that they enter that they are diluted or they integrate without there being a so concrete plan as in the morisco case. For that reason there is a difference between what foreigners think and what Spaniards feel about this topic, so the best way to prove it is with evidence and facts simply by coming to the truth.

Angela
12-02-19, 17:18
^^You're obviously not closer to African countries than to European countries. Look at your Oracle results and you'll see that.

Those are very minor percentages.

Carlos
12-02-19, 21:00
^^Yes, there are many Oracles and I have practically seen it. I do not know if there is one Oracle more effective or credible than another ...

Carlos
12-02-19, 23:04
^^You're obviously not closer to African countries than to European countries. Look at your Oracle results and you'll see that.

Those are very minor percentages.

10737
You mean something like that?

Angela
13-02-19, 00:05
10737
You mean something like that?

No. Eurogenes K36 doesn't even have an oracle, probably because if it did it would be crap.

Try the Dodecad v3 or K12b, or MDLP K23b You'll get a pie chart. Then just click Oracle and you'll get a list of populations in order. The first one will be the closest and so on.

Nick123321
13-02-19, 17:41
If you are Portuguese there should be no reference populations to Africa in the top 20 or 25

Viriatus91
15-12-19, 02:50
I am Portuguese with all of my ancestors from a small cluster of villages and I was wondering how much North African I would have in me. I was told on another forum that my North African DNA is very low for a Portuguese person, but I traced my family tree and almost all were from central Portugal at least as far back as the XV century, just from a very isolated region with low levels of exogamy and I found that the small villages were populated by "old Christians".

According to K11 0.66%
According to K13 I'm 0.16% Northeast African and 0.45% Sub-Saharan

According to Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer vs Farmer I am 0.37% Pygmy Hunter Gatherer and 0.34% Bantu Farmer with 0% East AFrican.
According to K15

Carlos
15-12-19, 03:24
^^
^^
This is mine

Dodecad V3



#
Population
Percent



1West_European41.22
2Mediterranean35.19
3West_Asian8.84
4East_European5.78
5Northwest_African4.69
6Southwest_Asian2.31
7East_African1.08

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 11.601552
2 French_Dodecad @ 11.949672
3 French_HGDP @ 12.067084
4 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 13.783651
5 Spaniards_Behar @ 14.658201
6 IBS_1000Genomes @ 14.791160
7 Spanish_Dodecad @ 15.236301
8 Tuscan_Henn @ 15.961272
9 TSI_HapMap @ 16.220535
10 Tuscan_Xing @ 16.471422
11 CEU_HapMap @ 17.516108
12 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.718433
13 French_Basque_HGDP @ 18.504568
14 N._European_Xing @ 19.202810
15 Orcadian_HGDP @ 19.765686
16 Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 20.101244
17 Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 20.168800
18 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 20.641006
19 Slovenian_Xing @ 20.835630
20 German_Dodecad @ 21.350168

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian_HGDP +50% N._European_Xing @ 5.497065


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Portuguese_Dodecad +25% Argyll_1000 Genomes +25% Tuscan_Xing @ 2.486555

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
1 C_Italian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.339145
2 Greek_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad @ 2.354224
3 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.486555
4 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap @ 2.534276
5 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.580343
6 Cornwall_1000 Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.671138
7 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.672774
8 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + N._European_Xing + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.677602
9 O_Italian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.776633
10 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap + N._European_Xing @ 2.791146
11 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_Henn @ 2.791179
12 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + IBS_1000Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.807064
13 Greek_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.808544
14 Orkney_1000 Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.809613
15 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Henn @ 2.827001
16 British_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.845930
17 Orcadian_HGDP + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.849756
18 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.878843
19 Irish_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.889892
20 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Portuguese_Dodecad + Spanish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.899637

Done.

Elapsed time 0.3074 seconds.

---------------------------

I can't with that acronym

?
IBS=IBIZA
CEU=CEUTA
TSL=TESALIA
O=Oeste

Duarte
15-12-19, 12:22
^^
^^
This is mine

Dodecad V3



#
Population
Percent



1West_European41.22
2Mediterranean35.19
3West_Asian8.84
4East_European5.78
5Northwest_African4.69
6Southwest_Asian2.31
7East_African1.08

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 11.601552
2 French_Dodecad @ 11.949672
3 French_HGDP @ 12.067084
4 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 13.783651
5 Spaniards_Behar @ 14.658201
6 IBS_1000Genomes @ 14.791160
7 Spanish_Dodecad @ 15.236301
8 Tuscan_Henn @ 15.961272
9 TSI_HapMap @ 16.220535
10 Tuscan_Xing @ 16.471422
11 CEU_HapMap @ 17.516108
12 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.718433
13 French_Basque_HGDP @ 18.504568
14 N._European_Xing @ 19.202810
15 Orcadian_HGDP @ 19.765686
16 Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 20.101244
17 Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 20.168800
18 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 20.641006
19 Slovenian_Xing @ 20.835630
20 German_Dodecad @ 21.350168

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Italian_HGDP +50% N._European_Xing @ 5.497065


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Portuguese_Dodecad +25% Argyll_1000 Genomes +25% Tuscan_Xing @ 2.486555

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++
1 C_Italian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.339145
2 Greek_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad @ 2.354224
3 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.486555
4 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap @ 2.534276
5 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.580343
6 Cornwall_1000 Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.671138
7 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.672774
8 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + N._European_Xing + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.677602
9 O_Italian_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.776633
10 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + TSI_HapMap + N._European_Xing @ 2.791146
11 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_Henn @ 2.791179
12 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + IBS_1000Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.807064
13 Greek_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.808544
14 Orkney_1000 Genomes + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.809613
15 German_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Henn @ 2.827001
16 British_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.845930
17 Orcadian_HGDP + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Tuscan_Xing @ 2.849756
18 Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.878843
19 Irish_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Portuguese_Dodecad + Romanians_14_Behar @ 2.889892
20 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Portuguese_Dodecad + Spanish_Dodecad + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.899637

Done.

Elapsed time 0.3074 seconds.

---------------------------

I can't with that acronym

?
IBS=IBIZA
CEU=CEUTA
TSL=TESALIA
O=Oeste

Hi friend Carlos.
I don't know if this is a good calculator. I am using it for the first time. These are my results:
Gedmatch.Com

Dodecad V3 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
West_European
36.11


2
Mediterranean
35.22


3
West_Asian
7.29


4
Northwest_African
5.44


5
East_European
4.56


6
Southwest_Asian
3.55


7
Neo_African
3.52


8
Palaeo_African
1.93


9
Southeast_Asian
1.20


10
East_African
1.17




Finished reading population data. 227 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 11.278077
2 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 13.352187
3 Tuscan_Henn @ 14.437673
4 Tuscan_Xing @ 14.843294
5 IBS_1000Genomes @ 14.988758
6 TSI_HapMap @ 15.070712
7 Spanish_Dodecad @ 15.658917
8 Spaniards_Behar @ 15.737614
9 North_Italian_HGDP @ 16.976906
10 French_Dodecad @ 17.123310
11 French_HGDP @ 17.415218
12 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 18.347452
13 Tuscan_HGDP @ 20.249239
14 French_Basque_HGDP @ 21.867590
15 CEU_HapMap @ 22.448521
16 Sardinian_HGDP @ 22.481668
17 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.769501
18 N._European_Xing @ 23.777786
19 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 24.287201
20 Orcadian_HGDP @ 24.748507

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Portuguese_Dodecad +50% Tuscan_Xing @ 7.691201


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +25% Algeria_Henn +25% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 3.100926


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
1 CEU_HapMap + French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.617986
2 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.734952
3 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.753278
4 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP @ 2.769689
5 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Orkney_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.829372
6 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Orcadian_HGDP + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.836386
7 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 2.859173
8 French_Basque_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.874258
9 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Tuscan_HGDP + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.888607
10 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + N._European_Xing @ 2.890436
11 CEU_HapMap + French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.897954
12 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Orcadian_HGDP @ 2.937682
13 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + N._European_Xing @ 2.958951
14 Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + North_Italian_HGDP + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 2.977415
15 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 2.985608
16 Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000 Genomes + Spaniards_Behar @ 3.049607
17 Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Spaniards_Behar @ 3.050490
18 CEU_HapMap + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 3.082377
19 French_Dodecad + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 3.100926
20 French_HGDP + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 3.123115

Done.

Elapsed time 0.4962 seconds.

But I'm not an European, as you know. I am a latin american that have the sweet spice of slaves and Indians (in the last case, i.e, the native americans, I'm not so sure :grin:)
Cheers :)

PS:
CEU means Northern Europeans from Utah;
TSI means Tuscans from Italy;
IBS means Iberian populations in Spain;
O_Italian means Other Italian.

torzio
15-12-19, 18:37
Hi friend Carlos.
I don't know if this is a good calculator. I am using it for the first time. These are my results:
Gedmatch.Com

Dodecad V3 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
West_European
36.11


2
Mediterranean
35.22


3
West_Asian
7.29


4
Northwest_African
5.44


5
East_European
4.56


6
Southwest_Asian
3.55


7
Neo_African
3.52


8
Palaeo_African
1.93


9
Southeast_Asian
1.20


10
East_African
1.17




Finished reading population data. 227 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 11.278077
2 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 13.352187
3 Tuscan_Henn @ 14.437673
4 Tuscan_Xing @ 14.843294
5 IBS_1000Genomes @ 14.988758
6 TSI_HapMap @ 15.070712
7 Spanish_Dodecad @ 15.658917
8 Spaniards_Behar @ 15.737614
9 North_Italian_HGDP @ 16.976906
10 French_Dodecad @ 17.123310
11 French_HGDP @ 17.415218
12 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 18.347452
13 Tuscan_HGDP @ 20.249239
14 French_Basque_HGDP @ 21.867590
15 CEU_HapMap @ 22.448521
16 Sardinian_HGDP @ 22.481668
17 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.769501
18 N._European_Xing @ 23.777786
19 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 24.287201
20 Orcadian_HGDP @ 24.748507

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Portuguese_Dodecad +50% Tuscan_Xing @ 7.691201


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +25% Algeria_Henn +25% N_Italian_Dodecad @ 3.100926


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
1 CEU_HapMap + French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.617986
2 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.734952
3 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.753278
4 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP @ 2.769689
5 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Orkney_1000 Genomes + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.829372
6 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Orcadian_HGDP + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.836386
7 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 2.859173
8 French_Basque_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.874258
9 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + Tuscan_HGDP + Argyll_1000 Genomes @ 2.888607
10 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + N._European_Xing @ 2.890436
11 CEU_HapMap + French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.897954
12 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Orcadian_HGDP @ 2.937682
13 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + N._European_Xing @ 2.958951
14 Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + North_Italian_HGDP + Norwegian_Dodecad @ 2.977415
15 French_Basque_HGDP + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP + Orkney_1000 Genomes @ 2.985608
16 Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orkney_1000 Genomes + Spaniards_Behar @ 3.049607
17 Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Spaniards_Behar @ 3.050490
18 CEU_HapMap + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 3.082377
19 French_Dodecad + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 3.100926
20 French_HGDP + French_Dodecad + Algeria_Henn + North_Italian_HGDP @ 3.123115

Done.

Elapsed time 0.4962 seconds.

But I'm not an European, as you know. I am a latin american that have the sweet spice of slaves and Indians (in the last case, i.e, the native americans, I'm not so sure :grin:)
Cheers :)

PS:
CEU means Northern Europeans from Utah;
TSI means Tuscans from Italy;
IBS means Iberian populations in Spain;
O_Italian means Other Italian.



a lot of north portuguese and Galician are mixed with north Italians ................it goes back to the 14th century , when Venice ships used Portugal as a stopover heading to southampton, london and the netherlands.......many venetian captains where hired by the portuguese king as well ...like ancestor of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_da_Mosto

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alvise-Ca-da-Mosto .......................Ca means house .......so, Alvise from the house ( family ) of da Mosto
Alvise is Luis in venetian

A few genoese also hired themselves out to the portuguese

so you could have ancestors from both areas

Duarte
15-12-19, 19:24
a lot of north portuguese and Galician are mixed with north Italians ................it goes back to the 14th century , when Venice ships used Portugal as a stopover heading to southampton, london and the netherlands.......many venetian captains where hired by the portuguese king as well ...like ancestor of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_da_Mosto

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alvise-Ca-da-Mosto .......................Ca means house .......so, Alvise from the house ( family ) of da Mosto
Alvise is Luis in venetian

A few genoese also hired themselves out to the portuguese

so you could have ancestors from both areas

Thanks for the informations and the links, torzio. You are too kind. :smile:

Viriatus91
16-12-19, 00:08
There were Italians who came to Portugal as sailors, but I would say that this is truer for the urban areas and particularly coastal ports. Though I poured over the 17th and 18th century parish records of Lisbon and did notice some foreigners, the largest by far being Galicians, followed by English/Scottish/Irish, though Italians were less numerous.

Farstar
17-12-19, 09:27
Have you ever read a genetics paper? There isn't very much "Suebi" or "Germanic" ancestry in the Portuguese.

See where you are? See where the Germans are?

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/nature07331-f1.2-774974.jpg

I think you're on the wrong forum.

Despite ES and FR clustering on themselves, there seems to be also a connection between both. It would be interesting to see if the Spanish points that are close to France in the PCA map are also close geographically to France (e.g. Catalonia, Euskadi, etc.). I think there was a different paper suggesting something like this already.

Angela
17-12-19, 17:07
Despite ES and FR clustering on themselves, there seems to be also a connection between both. It would be interesting to see if the Spanish points that are close to France in the PCA map are also close geographically to France (e.g. Catalonia, Euskadi, etc.). I think there was a different paper suggesting something like this already.

That's probably the case.