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oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 05:38
Multiple choice so you can choose several options. I made one about the Middle East and North Africa as a whole but this one is just for Armenia and Georgia.

Some Armenians;

http://h.imagehost.org/0981/arm2.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0781/arm3.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0682/arm4.jpghttp://j.imagehost.org/0893/arm6.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0912/arm12.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0210/arm13.jpghttp://i.imagehost.org/0217/arm20.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0835/arm29.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0432/arm25.jpghttp://j.imagehost.org/0032/arm9.jpg

Georgians;

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6181/45240660.jpghttp://www.photolife.ws/forum/uploads/1197887861/gallery_31_12_121166.jpghttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/277/g24q.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3677/g19s.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3259/g14d.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2663/98006297.jpg

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 05:47
More Armenians;

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5213082386_5a0787581a_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5212484783_ff3236fa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5002/5213082224_c2e50e33ab_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5213081924_cc0db9dbb5_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5213081640_1e33753e63_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5212483963_9f7c67f72f_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5213081196_882cac0c66_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5213081034_6953a94c0a_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5049/5213080950_5854d8096e_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5212483361_4e1c999d30_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5213080746_9d57b3a57a_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5166/5213080486_d03abf7095_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5213080560_e0c191d674_m.jpg

Antigone
01-09-11, 07:09
There isn't a box to tick for nowhere.

To my eye these people above don't look like any European population, I think it is the nose that makes the difference. If I had to choose anywhere I'd say Lebanon, which isn't Europe.

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 07:26
There isn't a box to tick for nowhere.

To my eye these people above don't look like any European population, I think it is the nose that makes the difference. If I had to choose anywhere I'd say Lebanon, which isn't Europe.

I think this applies more to Armenians than Georgians but that's just my opinion.

Goga
01-09-11, 07:46
Armenians are somehow 'darker' than Georgians. Most Georgians are even lighter/'whiter' than most folks from Spain, Greece, Central Italy etc... .

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 14:50
Armenians are somehow 'darker' than Georgians. Most Georgians are even lighter/'whiter' than most folks from Spain, Greece, Central Italy etc... .


Georgians still look West Asian to me but not Levantine-like.

Dorianfinder
01-09-11, 15:56
Georgians still look West Asian to me but not Levantine-like.

Generally speaking, Armenians look more like the Lebanese or Cypriot whereas 'white' Georgians look more Polish or Eastern European. If I could have voted separately I would vote Poland or Romania for Georgians and Cyprus for Armenians. Armenians look similar to Turks, many have slanted eyes or Turkic facial features found in Eastern Anatolia. Georgians are stocky with large eyes and full lips.

Goga
01-09-11, 17:48
Georgians still look West Asian to me but not Levantine-like.
Ok. I believe that Armenians are much more Asian/oriental looking than Georgians. Maybe you will change your opinion, if you travel to Tbilisi and see Georgians in real life.

Georgians are NOT Indo-European but a Caucasian (from Caucasus) in race and language. While Armenians are Indo-European in language.

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 18:18
But what I mean is, Georgians to me do not look any more Eastern European or Slavic than Armenians do.. they just simply don't look Lebanese-like the way Armenians do. Georgians have their own look that some Armenians share (the ones who don't look Levantine).

Goga
01-09-11, 18:34
But what I mean is, Georgians to me do not look any more Eastern European or Slavic than Armenians do.. they just simply don't look Lebanese-like the way Armenians do. Georgians have their own look that some Armenians share (the ones who don't look Levantine).
Ok you're right.

Every nation looks something different than it's neighbour.
Most Italians look very Italian, Most Greeks look very Greek, most people from Sweden look Swedish, East Europeans don't look like West Europeans, most folks from India look Indian, so Georgians look like Georgians.

But is this a good or a bad thing, I mean diversity among men?

All I know is that Georgians in general are 'whiter' than most Armenians, Turks, Persians, Kurds, etc.. But 'darker' than Russians.

Reinaert
01-09-11, 19:12
Hmmm.. It's very simple.. Not European.
Nice girls anyway.. :grin:
The men .. It could take a long time, and a lot of conversation before I could consider them as "friendly".
Some pictures show agression.
I don't like that.

Knovas
01-09-11, 20:07
By the way Goga, I finally found an ethnic Georgian as I promised. Here you have the African similarity:

North Africa: 66.55
East Africa: 63.74
South Africa: 63.63
Central Africa: 63.60
West Africa: 63.56

As I pointed in the other thread, an ethnic Georgian increases the African similarity compared with the mixed one. Much more similar to Africa than Iberians, but more or less in the average of other Southern Europeans. It makes sense.

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 20:54
Hmmm.. It's very simple.. Not European.
Nice girls anyway.. :grin:
The men .. It could take a long time, and a lot of conversation before I could consider them as "friendly".
Some pictures show agression.
I don't like that.

I don't think they look extremely unfriendly but I've noticed a lot of people from SE Europe and West Asia have eyebrows that point down toward the middle and deep-set eyes that give an almost 'angry' look.

Goga
01-09-11, 20:56
By the way Goga, I finally found an ethnic Georgian as I promised. Here you have the African similarity:

North Africa: 66.55
East Africa: 63.74
South Africa: 63.63
Central Africa: 63.60
West Africa: 63.56

As I pointed in the other thread, an ethnic Georgian increases the African similarity compared with the mixed one. Much more similar to Africa than Iberians, but more or less in the average of other Southern Europeans. It makes sense.
Ok! Thank you very much.

Goga
01-09-11, 20:57
The main goal of Georgians is to join NATO & EU someday.


What are pros and cons?

Reinaert
01-09-11, 21:02
It's this picture..

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3259/g14d.jpg

I wouldn't like any of them as my neighbor.

Goga
01-09-11, 21:03
Russia is of course against it. But the USA like the idea that Georgia will join NATO one day because it's in the strategic region, in the Caucasus and it is in the backyard of Russia.

Well it's a 'Christian' country. It's a democratic country, but also a poor one. They don't have natural resources. They border Eastern European countries through the Black Sea. Maybe oil from the Caspian Sea can go to Europe through Georgia.

Goga
01-09-11, 21:05
Some pictures show agression.
I don't like that.Lol, are you never agressive?

EDIT. these are Armenians and not Georgians. (Armenian flag)

Reinaert
01-09-11, 21:09
The main goal of Georgians is to join NATO & EU someday.


What are pros and cons?

Nato is bad.
EU may be good in the future, if we kick Britain out.

Goga
01-09-11, 21:12
Georgian, John Malchase David Shalikashvili, was a United States Army General who served as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1993 to 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shalikashvili


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/General_John_Shalikashvili_military_portrait%2C_19 93.JPEG/465px-General_John_Shalikashvili_military_portrait%2C_19 93.JPEG

Goga
01-09-11, 21:15
Nato is bad.
EU may be good in the future, if we kick Britain out.
I don't think EU will last forever. Because they will give EU officials to much power while rich countries like Holland will lose control over their internal economic affairs.

Goga
01-09-11, 21:21
Georgian Josef Stalin (USSR dictator) with Churchill.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208754-060C3FF4000005DC-414_468x391.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/24/article-1208754-0022FDF300000258-674_468x383.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1208754/Churchill-believed-charm--Stalin.html

Reinaert
01-09-11, 21:24
I don't think EU will last forever. Because they will give EU officials to much power while rich countries like Holland will lose control over their internal economic affairs.

I guess you are a CIA agent also. Or perhaps Mossad.
Go play somewhere else!
What you tell here is utter nonsense!

Goga
01-09-11, 21:46
I guess you are a CIA agent also. Or perhaps Mossad.
Go play somewhere else!
What you tell here is utter nonsense!
??? What has this to do with Mossad or CIA. If it was sarcasm I don't understand it!

Do you really think that Dutch people want to lose influence on their internal affairs? Do you really think that politicians like Geert Wilders or Emile Roemer and their supporters dream of the very powerful adhesive CENTRAL European government?

Even if that will be the case in the near future, it will not last forever. One day it will explode. EU is not like the USA. EU is too much diverse from inside to be a success story!

Wilhelm2
01-09-11, 21:55
Armenians are somehow 'darker' than Georgians. Most Georgians are even lighter/'whiter' than most folks from Spain, Greece, Central Italy etc... .
Georgians lighter than spaniards ? That's imposible. There was even a study about skintone and spaniards were as light as other West-Europeans.

Knovas
01-09-11, 22:09
Some Georgians are quite light, but it's not so generalized to arrive at this point. Actually Turks from de Mediterranean side are probably lighter than Georgians.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-09-11, 22:11
Georgians lighter than spaniards ? That's imposible. There was even a study about skintone and spaniards were as light as other West-Europeans.

Given what we know about autosomal DNA scores, yes, on average, that would be impossible.

Goga
01-09-11, 22:11
I want to note that most people (> 95%) you see here - placed by oreo_cookie - are ethnic Armenians.

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 22:21
Some Georgians;

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7884/22453177.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3320/16235764.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5652/g10u.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9786/g11l.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8508/g12m.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8572/g13c.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8948/g16q.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3729/g20t.jpghttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9613/g21y.jpghttp://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7093/g22v.jpghttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1631/g25e.jpghttp://www.photolife.ws/forum/uploads/1194123420/gallery_549_12_152708.jpghttp://www.photolife.ws/forum/uploads/1248993363/gallery_11182_40_71763.jpghttp://www.photolife.ws/forum/uploads/1238346746/gallery_10_14_58475.jpg

Goga
01-09-11, 22:28
Some Georgians
Where do you have these picture from? Do yo have a private album of many Eurasian ethnicities or what?

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 22:30
I got them from another site I post on.

Goga
01-09-11, 22:33
I got them from another site I post on.
With all due respect but may I ask you why you're interested in Georgians and in their (racial) position among other Eurasian folks?

oreo_cookie
01-09-11, 22:41
Just curious.. mainly also because I keep reading on these forums that Georgians are perceived as more European like than Armenians and I don't see it.

Goga
01-09-11, 22:57
Just curious.. mainly also because I keep reading on these forums that Georgians are perceived as more European like than Armenians and I don't see it.Ok, thanks for your reply!

I do also think that Georgians are more West Asian than European! Georgians are one of the oldest West Asian people.

And the Armenians have nothing to do with the Europeans.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-09-11, 01:45
I want to note that most people (> 95%) you see here - placed by oreo_cookie - are ethnic Armenians.

If I may ask, how do you know that?

oreo_cookie
02-09-11, 05:40
It was because I said in each post which group was who and I happened to post more Armenians at first.

Maciamo
02-09-11, 08:25
Armenians and Georgians definitely look closest to the Greeks in my eyes, although some phenotypes are also common in the south of France (notably in Auvergne, Languedoc and Provence) and parts of Italy (South Apennines ?).

oreo_cookie
02-09-11, 17:09
Anyone else want to share their thoughts?

oreo_cookie
05-09-11, 21:25
Armenians:

http://h.imagehost.org/0813/arm16.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0811/arm19.jpghttp://j.imagehost.org/0829/arm26.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0092/arm8.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0842/arm11.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0833/arm15.jpg


Georgians:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5774/83162105.jpghttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3574/55645400.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3729/g20t.jpghttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9613/g21y.jpghttp://c.imagehost.org/0707/g11.jpghttp://c.imagehost.org/0398/g9.jpg

oreo_cookie
06-09-11, 03:19
Wait, I'm confused.. what?

oreo_cookie
08-09-11, 02:51
Armenians:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5064778540_c7a74ea5fb_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5064164809_4a23e6e93a_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5064778248_12abb39aa2_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5064778062_ac6b1d199d_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5064777982_19e39e73be_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5064160439_1805d70662_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5213082386_5a0787581a_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5212484783_ff3236fa88_m.jpg

Georgians:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5198961968_8de3de441a_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5198367657_f544798eb7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5198961272_270262f24c_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5198367141_c7ce7da8b1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5198366883_2530e3d594_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5198960588_0ac15e0d64_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5198960288_fe7114abaa_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5198960180_a8822b7da0_m.jpg

Reinaert
08-09-11, 18:42
??? What has this to do with Mossad or CIA. If it was sarcasm I don't understand it!

Do you really think that Dutch people want to lose influence on their internal affairs? Do you really think that politicians like Geert Wilders or Emile Roemer and their supporters dream of the very powerful adhesive CENTRAL European government?

Even if that will be the case in the near future, it will not last forever. One day it will explode. EU is not like the USA. EU is too much diverse from inside to be a success story!

Haha...
EU will not explode, at least as long as it does what it always was. An economic union. You suggested that Europe is also a political union, which isn't the case.
Another point is, it's very clumsy to mention Wilders and Roemer in one sentence.
Wilders is a nationalist, Roemer is a socialist. They both are sceptic about Europe, but because of totally different reasons.
The socialists have seen that Europe is too much dominated by the tricks of the British and Americans.
Now it seems Britain is losing control in Europe. And now France has been bought by the Americans in the person of Sarkozy.
Who is in fact a Mossad/CIA agent.
The Dutch socialists want a more social Europe. Many countries in Europe are now right wing conservative. That is the reason for the economic crisis. When the Euro was introduced, all prices went up. By now, Europeans earn less than 10 years ago.
That's because of the capitalism. Production shifts to China. The west is living on a bubble.

And what happens? While the USA has a huge debt problem, some wise guys start to drivel about the budget problems in Greece, Spain and Portugal! Ridiculous! The main problem is the USA!

You started about Georgia wanted to become part of the EU and NATO.
Under the given situation at the moment, that's not going to happen.
If right wing Europe seems to be planning to kick countries like Greece out of the Euro zone, do you expect they let Georgia in?

Nova123
08-09-11, 18:49
they look like Syrian Arabs then European

Reinaert
08-09-11, 19:06
Well.. A well known Armenian..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzaoQV2_WnY&feature=related

He was a great European. :rolleyes2:


It's the culture, not the looks.

oreo_cookie
09-09-11, 22:53
Can you guys tell Armenians and Georgians from Levantines (Syrian/Lebanese) or no?

oreo_cookie
12-09-11, 23:44
Armenians:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5213082386_5a0787581a_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5212484783_ff3236fa88_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5213081924_cc0db9dbb5_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5213081640_1e33753e63_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5213081554_e5a63eb10f_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5212483963_9f7c67f72f_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5248/5213080290_f9ba1a46b3_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5047/5213080226_218cab80e9_m.jpg

Georgians:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5198364467_c271b114eb_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5198958268_c29eccb0cf_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5198958692_ae9039b1b7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5198959272_ea4082bf68_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5198365189_fc7baeda33_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4092/5198959606_a49df85344_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5242/5198365061_2792fcd3ba_m.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5081/5198364907_b6ab11dc87_m.jpg

Bodin
13-09-11, 02:06
I can , some of them look Levantine , but also some people on Balkan ( including Serbia ) look realy Levantine ( not like Armenians aldo ) , some of them look realy Slavic -Russian , and some of them look neither of that, but yet realy similar to peoples in ex Yugoslavia.

oreo_cookie
13-09-11, 02:52
I can , some of them look Levantine , but also some people on Balkan ( including Serbia ) look realy Levantine ( not like Armenians aldo ) , some of them look realy Slavic -Russian , and some of them look neither of that, but yet realy similar to peoples in ex Yugoslavia.

would you confuse some of these Armenians and Georgians posted, with Balkan Slavs?

Bodin
13-09-11, 18:52
I would confuse some of them with Balkanies populations ( especialy Turks , Greeks and Albanians) , and I dont believe there is many Slavs on Balkan , except in Slavonia and Slovenia

oreo_cookie
13-09-11, 23:32
Genetically how do Armenians and Georgians compare, anyone know?

Knovas
13-09-11, 23:37
Basically, Armenians have more European admixture than Georgians (extremely high West Asian), and they also have more Southwest Asian. See the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

oreo_cookie
13-09-11, 23:43
Basically, Armenians have more European admixture than Georgians (extremely high West Asian), and they also have more Southwest Asian. See the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0


Thank you :)

Did you vote on the poll btw?

Knovas
13-09-11, 23:51
Thank you :)

Did you vote on the poll btw?
Yes, I did.

I voted a lot of options. I remember Greeks, Cypriots, Italians, Sicilians, Maltese, Macedonians...

oreo_cookie
13-09-11, 23:59
Anyone else have an opinion?

Goga
14-09-11, 00:06
Anyone else have an opinion?Why? Don't you have enough, lol. They have a West Asian look and don't look European. But what is an European look? However, Georgians are much lighter than Armenians. But this doesn't mean that if you're 'light'/white you look automatically like an European. There're dark West Asians and there're light West Asians. There're very light Euro's and there're dark Europeans.

My point is. Even folks in Europe come in all shapes. Italians look very Italic, Scandinavians look very Scandinavic, Serbs look very Serbic, so Georgians look very Georgian and Armenians look very Armenian...

dersim
14-09-11, 00:39
Southern Europe in my opinion. Armenians and Georgians tend to look similar to each other.

Regards.

oreo_cookie
14-09-11, 21:15
Southern Europe in my opinion. Armenians and Georgians tend to look similar to each other.

Regards.

How much of Southern Europe?

Cambrius (The Red)
14-09-11, 22:53
Most would only fit in the Eastern Mediterranean part of Europe; Greece, Cyprus, Malta, Sicily...

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 02:21
Someone on one of the other boards proposed the idea that Iberians look more like Armenians than Romanians, Serbs, and Bosnians do.

Drac
15-09-11, 11:09
Someone on one of the other boards proposed the idea that Iberians look more like Armenians than Romanians, Serbs, and Bosnians do.

That "someone" being a silly clueless Serbian herself, with a set of very obvious & transparent agendas.

Knovas
15-09-11, 11:20
It was known since the beginning someone would vote for Spain and Portugal here too. Hate or nonsense, choose wherever you prefer.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 14:30
Cyperspace is loaded with disturbed characters in denial about certain realities in population genetics, etc. Just plain old sociopathic behavior driven by insecurities and the frustration that one of their favorite "others" is far different than what they wanted them to be. Quite sick.

Twenty or so years from now, people who chance to read some of the bizarre notions (exaggerations and falsehoods) written today about any number of ethnicities will probably laugh themselves silly.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 14:36
Someone on one of the other boards proposed the idea that Iberians look more like Armenians than Romanians, Serbs, and Bosnians do.

What odd herb was he smoking from the pipe of ethno-racial insecurity?:D

Goga
15-09-11, 15:09
Well there is a good saying about such things: opinions are like a$$h*les, everybody's got one!

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 15:28
I'm not saying that there is no resemblance between Iberians and Caucasians but to suggest an Armenian is closer to a Spaniard than to a Romanian or Bulgarian is crazy in my view.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:29
BTW I voted also for many countries, Iberia included. Not because I'm a hater or ignorant. But because I was many times in Madrid and Barcelona. And I was in Georgia. I do also live in Amsterdam, and in Amsterdam live many Spanish folks.

I mean I've seen many pure native Spanish folks in all shapes and colours. Some of them look like Northern Africans and Arabs some of them look like other Southern Euro's and some of them look like England, France etc.

But in general Georgians are 'lighter' than Spanish folks.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:31
I'm not saying that there is no resemblance between Iberians and Caucasians but to suggest an Armenian is closer to a Spaniard than to a Romanian or Bulgarian is crazy in my view.I don't see any difference between Romania and Spain. But according to me people in Romania are somehow 'lighter' because of Slavic influence.

Basque people are definitely 'darker' than Georgians. Think about great sportmen like are Indurain, Gimenez but also non-Basques like Contador etc.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:45
for example Georgians in general are much 'lighter / whiter' than Penelope Cruz. With all due respect for all folks, but Penelope Cruz looks like she is a Gypsy.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:48
NO WAY there's a Georgian who looks like her. Or that she looks like a Georgian. She looks like an AFRICAN, with all due respect! Just from the google.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/europe_spanish_voters/img/3.jpg
Margarita Jimenez, 39, civil servant

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/europe_spanish_voters/html/3.stm

Alan
15-09-11, 16:23
Armenians have more Mediterranean component. So genetically closer to South Europe while Georgians are more isolated. However Georgians in my opinion are lighter and look usually similar to Slavs.

Knovas
15-09-11, 16:54
That's a complete nonsense. You can find very dark Georgians or "rarer" phenotypes between them than in Spain. To cherry-pick with picts does not prove absolutly nothing, only clowns did such thing here. Keep dreaming Georgians are lighter...keep xd

Second thing, Penelope Cruz is really PART Gipsy, so not a native Spaniard woman with all respects. PATHETIC...

Romanians lighter in averge? one of the countries with more Gipsy influence (your argument) in all Europe? Come on guy :D

Finally, Georgians don't look Slavs and also have NOTHING to do with them genetically speaking. Any Georgian has more than 20% East European on admixture (they show only 4%, not much than Spain)...they are mostly West Asian. Simply impossible, just check how the Dodecad Mixed Slavs are, and do the same with Georgians. My god...

Lithuanians, the most Slavic people you can find (concretly Baltics), have around 60% East Euro and more than 30% West European...with 7% Mediterranean too. Tell me where do yo see Georgians closer to them than Spaniards, because it's the first miracle I'll be aware of.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0


Good afternoon.

Alan
15-09-11, 17:33
The West Asian component itself seems like a "southern version of North European"

Dont tell me that this People dont give you a Slavic vibe. Otherwise you have not much Idea about Slavs(especially South Slavs.)

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/08/24/alg_georgia-protest.jpg
http://www.polizeibericht.ch/thumb_uc_2559_w550_Der_zweite_Fluechtige_ist_der_2 8-jaehrige_Georgier_Pavel_Saschaja_alias_Pavel_Sapal ov_Er_ist_177_Zentimeter_gross.jpghttp://www.ninakavtaradze.com/photos/georgians.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44977000/jpg/_44977228_hands_afp.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MAIDScDNy6I/SM1Cpsr92iI/AAAAAAAADI0/YwoDSU0GRdY/s400/sabotagetraining1.jpghttp://www.fussball24.de/img/m/55843-kaiserslautern-holt-georgier-zkitischwili-2008.jpg

Knovas
15-09-11, 17:43
Far from the MOST Slavics you can find, the numbers are clear. Enough said.

To find 2 or three picts with some similarity does not prove nothing.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 17:52
Who is the idiot who voted for Spain ? :laughing: The Caucasus is at the other extreme side of western Europe, they have nothing to do with us.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 17:54
for example Georgians in general are much 'lighter / whiter' than Penelope Cruz. With all due respect for all folks, but Penelope Cruz looks like she is a Gypsy.
So Penelope Cruz represents all spaniards ? ANd yes, she is part gypsy from his father side.

Goga
15-09-11, 17:55
Armenians have more Mediterranean component. So genetically closer to South Europe while Georgians are more isolated. However Georgians in my opinion are lighter and look usually similar to Slavs.

Russian and Ukrainian females are crazy about Georgians, like they alway have been!

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 17:57
NO WAY there's a Georgian who looks like her. Or that she looks like a Georgian. She looks like an AFRICAN, with all due respect! Just from the google.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/europe_spanish_voters/img/3.jpg
Margarita Jimenez, 39, civil servant

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/europe_spanish_voters/html/3.stm
This woman doesn't look spanish, looks more like a Latin-American immigrant.

Goga
15-09-11, 17:57
ANd yes, she is part gypsy from his father side.Thank you, I didn't know that!

Legendary and GREAT Miguel Indurain, from Basque country. I love him, and I'm not gay. Is he a Gypsy too?

http://usuarios.multimania.es/puchus/ciclismo/indurain.jpg

Knovas
15-09-11, 18:00
What's the problem with Indurian? He probably would appear more than 95% European at Dodecad. I don't see any North African or non European look in him. I think you need some glasses guy.

I'm cosidering he could be more or less the same mixed as DOD818 is.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 18:01
In my opinion, Georgians look like Iranians and Turks, which is where they cluster also genetically. And no, they are not related to slavic, they are only 4% East-European. As for skintone, I very much doubt they are lighter than spaniards, considering the study of Jablonski et al. :

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/08/skin-reflectance-of-selected-world.html

oreo_cookie
15-09-11, 18:02
He looks perfectly European to me.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 18:02
Thank you, I didn't know that!

Legendary and GREAT Miguel Indurain, from Basque country. I love him, and I'm not gay. Is he a Gypsy too?

http://usuarios.multimania.es/puchus/ciclismo/indurain.jpg
Looks Western-European, Paleo-Atlantid. A common look in Southwest France and Basques

Goga
15-09-11, 18:13
What's the problem with Indurian? He probably would appear more than 95% European at Dodecad. I don't see any North African or non European look in him. I think you need some glasses guy.

I'm cosidering he could be more or less the same mixed as DOD818 is.
Most Georgians are 'lighter / whiter' than Indurain!

Goga
15-09-11, 18:14
http://eltiodelmazo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/miguel-indurain.jpg

http://www.philoconnor.com/portraits/images/miguel-indurain1.jpg

Miguel Indurain

http://eltiodelmazo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/miguel-indurain.jpg

Goga
15-09-11, 18:17
Indurain is a LEGEND!

http://cdn1.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/photos/2007/vuelta07/vuelta071/fs016_600.jpg

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/2012-vuelta-a-espana-to-start-in-pamplona/45094

Goga
15-09-11, 18:30
Georgian vs. Iberian. Tell me who is WHITER???

Georgian
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5652/g10u.jpg


Iberian
http://www.philoconnor.com/portraits/images/miguel-indurain1.jpg

Knovas
15-09-11, 18:30
Most Georgians are 'lighter / whiter' than Indurain!
Most Iberians are lighter than 99.9% of Georgians and Indurain. So what?

Do you know the meaning of average? LOL

Goga
15-09-11, 18:35
Most Iberians are lighter than 99.9% of Georgians and Indurain. So what?
This is not true. I was in Barcelona and Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish folks. I have many Spanish friends. And I was born in Georgia. So I know how Georgians look like.

Georgians are in general much WHITER than the Euro-Iberians. I've seen it with my own EYES.

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

Knovas
15-09-11, 18:38
Now I'm sure you are. Think what you want, I don't care XD

Goga
15-09-11, 18:39
Spanish folks absolutely don't look like Georgians. NO WAY!


Georgian vs. Iberian. Tell me who is WHITER???

Georgian
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5652/g10u.jpg


Iberian
http://www.philoconnor.com/portraits/images/miguel-indurain1.jpg

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 18:57
A group of Georgians here, they look very dark and exotic, would pass as gypsies in Spain :

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3259/g14d.jpg

Goga
15-09-11, 19:01
A group of Georgians here, they look very dark and exotic, would pass as gypsies in Spain :

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3259/g14d.jpg
These are ARMENIANS!!! Armenian FLAG!

More than 75% of Spaniards look like Gypsies and 20% look like Africans.
Btw, nothing wrong with Gypsies or Africans.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 19:06
You are a waste of time. Im leaving this thread.

Goga
15-09-11, 19:10
You are a waste of time. Im leaving this thread.

Ok, Have a nice, wealthy and healthy life in your pure atlantic, nordic, white, uber superior body of yours!

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 19:12
BTW I voted also for many countries, Iberia included. Not because I'm a hater or ignorant. But because I was many times in Madrid and Barcelona. And I was in Georgia. I do also live in Amsterdam, and in Amsterdam live many Spanish folks.

I mean I've seen many pure native Spanish folks in all shapes and colours. Some of them look like Northern Africans and Arabs some of them look like other Southern Euro's and some of them look like England, France etc.

But in general Georgians are 'lighter' than Spanish folks.

Guess you've already smoked from the pipe.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 19:13
These are ARMENIANS!!! Armenian FLAG!

More than 75% of Spaniards look like Gypsies and 20% look like Africans.
Btw, nothing wrong with Gypsies or Africans.

Man, you have some serious issues.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 19:18
Most Georgians are 'lighter / whiter' than Indurain!

I'm willing to bet you that you are Ferreiro (your "partner" in T-R-O-L-L-I-N-G Iberians). No one in their right mind would agree with the nonsense you've posted.

spongetaro
15-09-11, 19:19
We should create a new section of the forum for all threads related to Iberian genetic and anthropology

Cambrius (The Red)
15-09-11, 19:21
This is not true. I was in Barcelona and Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish folks. I have many Spanish friends. And I was born in Georgia. So I know how Georgians look like.

Georgians are in general much WHITER than the Euro-Iberians. I've seen it with my own EYES.

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

You may not be blind, just myopic and unable to accept reality.

Wilhelm
15-09-11, 19:37
We should create a new section of the forum for all threads related to Iberian genetic and anthropology
Really, I don't know why people are so obssesed with us.

Knovas
15-09-11, 20:22
Since all the data is showing Iberians as something they didn't expect, they try very hard to show things in a different way. That's what I call desperation and sickness.

Iberians have North African admixture, ok, but not in a substantial degree. No significant connection, I'm sorry.

Drac
16-09-11, 05:21
I don't see any difference between Romania and Spain. But according to me people in Romania are somehow 'lighter' because of Slavic influence.

Basque people are definitely 'darker' than Georgians. Think about great sportmen like are Indurain, Gimenez but also non-Basques like Contador etc.

Unfortunately for your dreams, you are obviously not an anthropologist and you have no idea of what you are talking about. Not even Romania is lighter than Spain:

"The darkest skins occur in Portugal, southern Spain, southern Italy and Rumania." - Carleton S. Coon, "The Living Races of Man", page 63.

Notice that Spain is only partly included in this "darkest" European category, while Romania is wholly in it. So let alone Georgia, which is not even really a part of Europe.

And your absurd cherry-picking of pictures is hardly convincing. Two can play this game. Typical Georgians:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-01/28/xin_200103280909645316234.jpg

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-04/09/xin_5820406100927843150093.jpg

http://crisisingeorgia.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/georgians-2.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
16-09-11, 05:38
Frankly, I have very little trust in what Coon wrote, as he was an inveterate stereotyper and much of his information obtained second and third hand from physical anthropologists who did little field work.

Going by the body of autosomal research, on average, it is impossible for Georgians to be lighter than Spaniards, from any region of Spain.

oreo_cookie
16-09-11, 08:03
Going by the body of autosomal research, on average, it is impossible for Georgians to be lighter than Spaniards, from any region of Spain.

Not only that but what they look like. Georgians look more like Iranians than Europeans and are not lighter than Spaniards.

Knovas
17-09-11, 00:44
You can find rare cases of people who is lighter and darker than expected, but the average is what really counts.

oreo_cookie
17-09-11, 01:20
You can find rare cases of people who is lighter and darker than expected, but the average is what really counts.

true. obviously some Georgians will be lighter than some Spaniards but as a rule, Spaniards are definitely lighter.

oreo_cookie
17-09-11, 17:54
Georgians

http://www.causin.org/gallery/d/554-2/georgians.jpghttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44977000/jpg/_44977228_hands_afp.jpghttp://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-04/09/xin_5820406100927843150093.jpghttp://media.monstersandcritics.com/galleries/1335385/0144230550085.jpghttp://gdb.rferl.org/D7F27047-D085-43EF-A9A7-02720BD72A17_w393_s.jpghttp://crisisingeorgia.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/georgians-1.jpghttp://crisisingeorgia.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/dominik-cagara-author-of-content.jpghttp://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/08/24/alg_georgia-protest.jpg

oreo_cookie
18-09-11, 20:36
Iberians have North African admixture, ok, but not in a substantial degree. No significant connection, I'm sorry.

Iberians have a small amount of North African-specific ancestry, but North Africans themselves are not entirely of original North African stock, they're very mixed. I think the explanation for European-like North Africans is that following the Reconquista, Muslims in Iberia of native stock probably were expelled as well and settled North Africa and intermixed.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-09-11, 21:11
Iberians have a small amount of North African-specific ancestry, but North Africans themselves are not entirely of original North African stock, they're very mixed. I think the explanation for European-like North Africans is that following the Reconquista, Muslims in Iberia of native stock probably were expelled as well and settled North Africa and intermixed.

Keep in mind that the majority of North African ancestry in Iberia is very old. The ancient Berber tribes of NA were fully caucasoid and likely looked closer to the "non-mixed" Ahmazigs of Kaybels you find today, rather than everyday Moroccans / Algerians. Big difference.

oreo_cookie
18-09-11, 21:18
Keep in mind that the majority of North African ancestry in Iberia is very old. The ancient Berber tribes of NA were fully caucasoid and likely looked closer to the "non-mixed" Ahmazigs of Kaybels you find today, rather than everyday Moroccans / Algerians. Big difference.

This is very true. And going with what I said I'd bet modern North Africans have more Iberian mixture, than Iberians have North African, for the reason I said.

Knovas
19-09-11, 00:59
Both of your observations make sense.

Cambrius (The Red)
19-09-11, 03:06
This is very true. And going with what I said I'd bet modern North Africans have more Iberian mixture, than Iberians have North African, for the reason I said.

No question.

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 01:51
Anyone else have anything to add?

Kardu
26-09-11, 11:11
Genetically how do Armenians and Georgians compare, anyone know?

According to Armenian Genetics Project among all their neighbors Armenians are farther from Georgians and are very close to Assyrians.

Kardu
26-09-11, 11:26
Not sure if I am correct but I notice Nordicist views here :) Let me remind you that the first real civilization in Europe belongs to Etruscans who certainly were not pale and blue-eyed :)
In general this kind of discussions are silly and vain. Usually narrow-minded fanatics from all sides hijack the issue and there is no point arguing with them...

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 14:51
According to Armenian Genetics Project among all their neighbors Armenians are farther from Georgians and are very close to Assyrians.

I have read this before.

Kardu
26-09-11, 15:33
I have read this before.

And I've recently watched online a lengthy presentation by Prof. Yepiskoposyan who is a main expert on Armenian DNA and he mentioned this.

Kardu
26-09-11, 22:21
This might be interesting. Anthropological measurements from 1933 research.

http://www.dwc.knaw.nl/DL/publications/PU00016408.pdf

Kardu
26-09-11, 22:57
For illustration I am going to post some photos of XIX century Georgians. Mostly they are from noble families, their genealogies are well-known so we can be certain that there was no recent admixture. Unlike of the current photos from the streets on which god knows who is depicted :)

Kardu
26-09-11, 23:43
5202520151995200

Kardu
26-09-11, 23:45
5206520552045203

oreo_cookie
27-09-11, 17:34
Any other thoughts from anyone?

oreo_cookie
02-10-11, 01:12
Armenians that I don't think have been posted yet;

http://a.imagehost.org/0500/arm1.jpghttp://i.imagehost.org/0313/arm4.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0323/arm7.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0842/arm11.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0962/arm24.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0650/arm19.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0855/arm21.jpg

Carlos
02-10-11, 06:09
Clearly there are many that might happen for Spanish, French, Italian or Greek, even English or Scotch, but to groso way the eyes and the look is of sleeping, an effect of the eyelids. In general the eyes would trump me to identify them as Spanish (spaniards)

Doing an effort to fit them in some country of Europe he would choose for:

Inside Western Europe it would fit them in the Spanish region of Galicia, Italy and France.

At present I do not rely very much of giving an opinion about the clarity or darkness of the skin, since the people nowadays saw much lighter of clothes, it is exhibited much more to the sun, work, sport, vacation and others. at least the Mediterranean ones that we can put oneself blacks if we want.


El que ha dicho que no ve diferencias entre los rumanos y los españoles, es que está atontado el tío, que se vaya a su casa y se acueste.


Greetings, their surveys are very interesting, enjoyable and entertaining.

Kardu
02-10-11, 12:20
Carlos, I certainly doubt that Armenians could fit in Galicia :)
I haven't mentioned this before but both Armenians and Georgians we can distinguish each other from the first sight. If there is no recent admixture, average Armenian and average Georgian look quite different from each other and lumping them together was not probably right for this thread :)

Knovas
03-10-11, 16:59
The problem of posting pictures is that they are never enough. All countries have people who deviate from the common phenotypes. The way genes recombine have an important role to play on this, but it's totally unknown.

Kardu
03-10-11, 19:27
The problem of posting pictures is that they are never enough. All countries have people who deviate from the common phenotypes. The way genes recombine have an important role to play on this, but it's totally unknown.

There can always be some natural development/mutation affecting a phenotype but the most common reason usually is an alien admixture.

oreo_cookie
10-10-11, 18:35
The problem of posting pictures is that they are never enough. All countries have people who deviate from the common phenotypes. The way genes recombine have an important role to play on this, but it's totally unknown.

This is if there is either foreign admixture, or the child gets just the right combination of genes from both parents that they look different (both from their parents and the average person in the population).

Knovas
11-10-11, 10:13
There are a few regions, specially in Europe-Caucasus-Middle East, where you don't find any foreign admixture. Of course it must be due to this, that's nothing incredibly difficult. The more inhabitants we have in a population, the more easy is to find this.

Kardu
11-10-11, 13:24
@ oreo_cookie

BTW, I've noticed that you've started several threads about ethnic groups and their phenotypes etc. but you don't mention what's your own ethnic affinity :) Does not sound fair..

lebowsky
11-10-11, 16:47
This is not true. I was in Barcelona and Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish folks. I have many Spanish friends. And I was born in Georgia. So I know how Georgians look like.

Georgians are in general much WHITER than the Euro-Iberians. I've seen it with my own EYES.

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

I agree with that.

lebowsky
11-10-11, 16:50
They look like latins (portuguese, spaniards, romanian,sicilian)

Knovas
11-10-11, 17:05
The term "latin" has nothing to do with phisical appearence. You are twisting things so much, and I don't want to guess the reason.

oreo_cookie
11-10-11, 18:09
I'm sure he knows "Latin" does not signify an appearance but those are the groups he was reminded of.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-11, 19:24
I agree with that.

Total nonsense. These postings are a clear provocation. Full heritage DNA (autosomal DNA) shows just the opposite. I personally don't care who is darker or lighter but stop with the distortions already as you are insulting people's intelligence.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-11, 19:25
I'm sure he knows "Latin" does not signify an appearance but those are the groups he was reminded of.

Don't be so sure.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-11, 19:27
The problem of posting pictures is that they are never enough. All countries have people who deviate from the common phenotypes. The way genes recombine have an important role to play on this, but it's totally unknown.

That's why it's better to post photos of native crowds / groups, rather than individuals.

oreo_cookie
11-10-11, 19:39
That's why it's better to post photos of native crowds / groups, rather than individuals.


Some of the pictures in here are of groups and crowds.

Knovas
11-10-11, 19:42
Don't be so sure.
It's curious those who tell something about "Latins" usually forget to mention the French. And also, they forget the alphabet used to write in English, Deutsch, etc. Of course, the culture is the last thing they care when refering to this. Big mistake.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-10-11, 20:38
It's curious those who tell something about "Latins" usually forget to mention the French. And also, they forget the alphabet used to write in English, Deutsch, etc. Of course, the culture is the last thing they care when refering to this. Big mistake.

Well, we know what the real story is only too well. Quite frankly, the repetitively dishonest behaviors on some of these threads are provocative and detract from meaningful discussion. It seems like a romper room situation at times.

oreo_cookie
11-10-11, 21:41
It's curious those who tell something about "Latins" usually forget to mention the French.

I find it curious some people would mention Romanians before French, given the geographic proximity of France to Spain, Portugal, etc. and Romania is further away.

lebowsky
11-10-11, 23:19
It's curious those who tell something about "Latins" usually forget to mention the French. And also, they forget the alphabet used to write in English, Deutsch, etc. Of course, the culture is the last thing they care when refering to this. Big mistake.

I mean latin as a group nations. I did not mention French because they generally are not similar to the Spanish, Romanian and Portuguese.

Knovas
12-10-11, 00:05
I don't know what do you pretend, but putting Romanians, Spaniards, and Portuguese in the same bag, is a totally nonsense. Absolutely nothing to do.

Iberians cluster between North Italians and French, while Romanians fall between Tuscans and Hungarians. And Southern Italians...that was a very good one since they are cluster with Greeks. Quite far, I'm afraid your "observations" are completely wrong.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 01:41
I mean latin as a group nations. I did not mention French because they generally are not similar to the Spanish, Romanian and Portuguese.

Are you serious? :laughing:

Have you researched genetic distances?

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 01:42
Yet another t-r-o-l-l. :useless:

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 01:59
I find it curious some people would mention Romanians before French, given the geographic proximity of France to Spain, Portugal, etc. and Romania is further away.

Oh yeah, pretty curious indeed.:wary2:

lebowsky
12-10-11, 03:47
Question is, who are more like the Armenians? So I think they look like portuguese, spaniards and romanians. On the other hand the Portuguese, Spaniards and romanian are latins, Aren't They? I'm not talking about race or being racist.

oreo_cookie
12-10-11, 08:03
Question is, who are more like the Armenians? So I think they look like portuguese, spaniards and romanians. On the other hand the Portuguese, Spaniards and romanian are latins, Aren't They? I'm not talking about race or being racist.


Well to think they all look "Latin" you'd by default think all of the groups you mentioned, plus Armenians and Georgians, have a common appearance.

barbarian
12-10-11, 09:08
Carlos, I certainly doubt that Armenians could fit in Galicia :)
I haven't mentioned this before but both Armenians and Georgians we can distinguish each other from the first sight. If there is no recent admixture, average Armenian and average Georgian look quite different from each other and lumping them together was not probably right for this thread :)

there are lots of armenians and georgians working in turkey. and i can easily understand who is georgian. they have light brown hair, light skin and long nose on the other hand i cant distinguish armenians from turkish ppl having mostly black hair and brown eyes.

e.g. the ppl in these last pictures are all like turkish.

Knovas
12-10-11, 13:05
Romanians and Iberians have a completely different history, the point their languaje have the same seed it doesn't mean anything (it's only cultural, not phenotypical). Genatically speaking, there's no proximity in the European group since Romanians are substantially removed from French, while Spaniards and Portuguese fall exactly next to them. So no match in general terms, actually Romanians have resemblances with Hungarians and people from the Balkans, ocasionally with some Italians, but the thing doesn't extend more.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 13:23
Well to think they all look "Latin" you'd by default think all of the groups you mentioned, plus Armenians and Georgians, have a common appearance.

The fact is that Iberians do not look at all like Armenians or Georgians. How could they, since they are mainly Atlantic in appearance. Quite silly...

Knovas
12-10-11, 13:37
West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Iberia is very low, almost absent in places like Catalunya or the Basque country, as well as in several parts of Aragón and Navarra (surely). Very difficult to look like this, no overlap.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 14:30
Genotype = phenotype. Full genetic heritage determines general physical appearance (although chromosomes behave randomly leading to occasional variation from the "standard") and this is where autosomal DNA scores provide many of the answers. The great majority of Iberians, based on all the latest autosomal readings, are Western European with strong N. Atlantic, N. Euro and S. Euro components. There have been numerous postings on Eupedia about this.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-10-11, 14:44
All things considered, I would say there are some phenotypic differences (sometimes substantial) between Armenians and Georgians.

Kardu
12-10-11, 22:27
there are lots of armenians and georgians working in turkey. and i can easily understand who is georgian. they have light brown hair, light skin and long nose on the other hand i cant distinguish armenians from turkish ppl having mostly black hair and brown eyes.

e.g. the ppl in these last pictures are all like turkish.
I fully agree..
As for group captures from the streets I don't find it particularly helpful at least for Georgia. In the best case ethnic Georgians are only 70% of the population, so it's a high probability that on random photos only half are Georgians. Later I can put photos of the people from traditional martial arts club of which I am sure that they are Georgians and you can judge by yourself.

oreo_cookie
13-10-11, 06:10
All things considered, I would say there are some phenotypic differences (sometimes substantial) between Armenians and Georgians.

I never noticed this but it may just be me. I always thought Armenians and Georgians looked relatively similar.

Kardu
13-10-11, 19:11
I never noticed this but it may just be me. I always thought Armenians and Georgians looked relatively similar.
Have you ever seen real life Armenians or Georgians?

oreo_cookie
15-10-11, 03:50
Armenians look like people I picture when I think of old Biblical stories.. like if you wanted to re-enact scenes from the Bible and make the people representative, you could use Armenians as a valid substitute.

Kardu
15-10-11, 12:50
That's why according to Armenian DNA research project their closest population is Assyrian :)

Kardu
15-10-11, 21:23
Some photos of Georgian highlander traditional martial arts enthusiasts, whom I know to be ethnic Georgians without any recent admixture.
5287528852895290

oreo_cookie
15-10-11, 21:24
That's why according to Armenian DNA research project their closest population is Assyrian :)

And are the Assyrians in the Bible? I don't know much about the Bible other than from religious education classes years ago so I don't remember if I ever heard about them. All I know is Armenians look like an ancient people to me, if that makes sense.

Kardu
15-10-11, 21:41
I meant general 'Semitic' look, although the term is linguistic

Humanist
16-10-11, 00:13
And are the Assyrians in the Bible? I don't know much about the Bible other than from religious education classes years ago so I don't remember if I ever heard about them. All I know is Armenians look like an ancient people to me, if that makes sense.

Some passages:


Isaiah 19:23 - In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

Hosea 5:13 - When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah [saw] his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.

Micah 5:6 - And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver [us] from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Isaiah 31:8 - Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

Isaiah 23:13 - Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, [till] the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; [and] he brought it to ruin.

Isaiah 10:24 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

Isaiah 10:5 - O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Hosea 11:5 - He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

Isaiah 14:25 - That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Ezekiel 31:3 - Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

Isaiah 52:4 - For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Micah 5:5 - And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

Isaiah 30:31 - For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, [which] smote with a rod.

John Baker, Race:

The Armenians themselves, from whom the name of the subrace is derived are of remarkably uniform physical type. A good description of the Armenians was published by Chantre in 1895. Essentially the same type was represented in ancient times by the Hittites and Assyrians; indeed, the type was named Assyroid by Deniker. The fact there are strong resemblances between many Jews and Armenians was pointed out at meeting of the Royal Anthropological Society in 1895 and is generally accepted.

It is thought, however that another subrace besides the Armenid enters into the composition of the European Jewish stock, and perhaps entered into that of the Hittites and Assyrians. This is the Orientalid subrace, which includes many of those commonly called by the vague name 'Arabs'. It is seen in its most typical form in the interior of Arabia, but also among the population of Syria and Iraq. The Orientalids are slender people of moderate stature. In certain respects they differ markedly from the Armenids, for they are very dolichocranial, with prominent occiput, and the nose is narrow, with compressed alae. The selltion is situated high up towards the forehead. The profile of the nose is sometimes straight, but often somewhat aquiline(that is to say convex, with a nearly straight or slightly convave border to the nasal septum). The face is long and narrow, and tend to appear oval in front view. The lower lip is not everted. The slit between the lids of the open eye is wide on the side towards the nose, so that the visible part of the eyeball has the form of an almond, the iris is black. The hair is almost black, the skin rather swarthy.

oreo_cookie
19-10-11, 03:05
And what is the relation of the Armenians to the Assyrians.. two closely related groups? A common ancestor between them? Or are they the same group?

Kardu
20-10-11, 00:45
Most probably modern Armenians are descendants of Assyrian related kin and Urartians. Here is the link of Armenian DNA project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx

Goga
20-10-11, 00:56
Most probably modern Armenians are descendants of Assyrian related kin and Urartians. Here is the link of Armenian DNA project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspxI believe in the opposite. I think that Assyrians are of Semitic origin and later heavy mixed with Urartu kind of people.
Armenians are from Anatolia-Southern Caucasus, while Georgians have always been living in the Caucasus. I think that Armenians are more mixed with Turks (and Persians/Kurds) and that's why they are darker than Georgians!

Also Armenians have much more R1b, this is what makes them 'darker' too...

Kardu
20-10-11, 23:39
The fact is that modern Armenians are genetically close to modern Assyrians. We can ponder over the possible explanation but this is the fact.
As for Georgians maybe G2a1 was 'always' in the Caucasus but J1* and J2a* certainly came from Anatolia. Our own historiographical sources as early as 11th century AD state that Georgians believed that their ancestors came from the South, from Aryan-Kartli, whatever that means...
And what does R1b has in common with pigmentation?

Goga
21-10-11, 00:01
The fact is that modern Armenians are genetically close to modern Assyrians. We can ponder over the possible explanation but this is the fact.
As for Georgians maybe G2a1 was 'always' in the Caucasus but J1* and J2a* certainly came from Anatolia. Our own historiographical sources as early as 11th century AD state that Georgians believed that their ancestors came from the South, from Aryan-Kartli, whatever that means...
And what does R1b has in common with pigmentation?I believe that G2a1 was part of the ancient Colchis, while Georgian J2a is ancient Hurrian (related folks to Caucasian Colchis) from somewhere where Kurds live nowadays. It is true what Georgian writers wrote, because with these Hurrians started everything. J2a folks were responsible for many great ancient civilizations in the Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. Also according to me without J2a folks Indo-European languages would never exist! So according to me they were responsible for proto-Indo-Europeans too!

True that haplogroups have nothing to do with pigmentation, but we all know where G2a and J2a is from. But we still don't know where the original R1b carriers are from (Central Asia? or Western Europe? etc.) and how they looked like!

Humanist
26-10-11, 05:03
Most probably modern Armenians are descendants of Assyrian related kin and Urartians. Here is the link of Armenian DNA project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx

David at Eurogenes created a MDS plot for a few populations yesterday. I superimposed the plot over a map of the general region associated with the particular populations examined.

The original MDS is also provided (2nd image).

The two Iraqi Arabs are from Baghdad and S Iraq. The Assyrians are from Lebanon, Iran, and Turkey. They represent all three principal Assyrian churches. There are a few Iranians from Khuzestan as well. This is consistent with the Behar Iranian sample, based on previous analyses.



http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg


http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/Mid_East_Eurogenes_MDS.jpg

Kardu
29-10-11, 21:34
Here you can see how modern Georgians and Armenians are grouped according to Dodecad data

http://s41.radikal.ru/i092/1110/11/5b2c24cafe7d.jpg

Kardu
07-11-11, 17:36
Distance between Armenians and Georgians according to Euroegenes
5330

Knovas
07-11-11, 18:02
Seems like the Behar Georgians and the Project Georgians are different. The first Georgians are much representative for a Caucasian isolate, and the others seem to deivate a little, being closer to Armenians.

There aren't probably a lot of Georgians like the Behar ones. They are estrictly selected.

By the way, I already revised the West Eurasian map, and it pulls me a lot to Basques (extremely close). Not sure about the pattern followed, but it's surprising considering the high Southwestern I got in the Euro7 Calculator, very different from Basque results. It seems to work by genome wide matches or something like this, it's difficult to say.

I tell this because you Kardu surely are closer to Armenians here, while in the Euro7 Calculator you looked much Georgian. ¿right?

Kardu
07-11-11, 19:12
I've asked Dr.Behar about those Georgians and apparently they are not from an isolated village but all around from Central, Southern and Western Georgia. I am GE2 on the map, so not close to Armenians (Although closer than Behar's ones for sure).

Yes, all this maps, calculations and definitions still need lot of polishing...

Knovas
07-11-11, 19:33
Possibly there are things to fix. I see that in the West Eurasian map you are very close to the main Georgians, as well as the other including Ukranians, but not in the Caucasus and Surrounds.

In the West Eurasian I am the closest one to Basques (without clear overlap), except for 3 HGDP "ES" and 2 "FR". I'd consider I'm neither Basque or Spanish, so perhaps this one is not bad at all.

Kardu
07-11-11, 19:54
Possibly there are things to fix. I see that in the West Eurasian map you are very close to the main Georgians, as well as the other including Ukranians, but not in the Caucasus and Surrounds.

In the West Eurasian I am the closest one to Basques (without clear overlap), except for 3 HGDP "ES" and 2 "FR". I'd consider I'm neither Basque or Spanish, so perhaps this one is not bad at all. Sorry, today I went through too many maps and matrixes :) Which West Eurasian Map do you mean exactly?

Knovas
07-11-11, 20:03
This one:

Request by Eduardo: West Eurasia

PNG image (http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5977/weunov011.png) of dimensions 1&2

Dat file (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9o3EYTdM8lQNWNmYjI2MTUtOTExNi00NzA3LWEwN jItZGU0MDM3NzMyMWFl) including 6 dimensions

Kardu
07-11-11, 20:07
This one:

Request by Eduardo: West Eurasia

PNG image (http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5977/weunov011.png) of dimensions 1&2

Dat file (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9o3EYTdM8lQNWNmYjI2MTUtOTExNi00NzA3LWEwN jItZGU0MDM3NzMyMWFl) including 6 dimensions ah, cool, moltes gracies!

Kardu
07-11-11, 20:41
Oops, my bad, I am actually GE5...

Knovas
07-11-11, 20:50
If you are GE5, then you cluster even better with the Georgians, who are mostly with Abhkasians and some Kurds :)

But in the other maps, specially the Caucassus and surrounds, you get very different position. For this reason, I assume the West Eurasian map is probably the most accurate (is the one including more samples).

Kardu
07-11-11, 21:04
Yes this map seems pretty accurate, and I've checked with other Georgians as well.

As for dodecad, I(DOD 790) tend to stand separate from other Georgians who team up with Abkhasians

Knovas
07-11-11, 21:23
It surprised me at the beggining, but for what you say looks quite reliable. At 23andme I don't deviate towards Basques, while for example FR1 (Sligthly closer in the map) does. But it's true that I don't get the typical clusters like other Iberians (North Italians, Tuscans, etc). However, that plot needs an improve since a very long time, they must include more samples.

You Georgians don't have any reference population there LOL

Kardu
07-11-11, 21:41
yes, we are terribly underrepresented everywhere.. :)
If 23andme has some Christmas discounts we plan to get at least 30 kits, let's see :)

MOESAN
16-11-11, 00:43
Georgians lighter than spaniards ? That's imposible. There was even a study about skintone and spaniards were as light as other West-Europeans.

very surprising!
the only results I have been for reflectance speak of Basques (might enough, this ones, yes) - have you a reference, a link to give me about other "Iberia" people?
because if not all of them, I saw a lot of very dark 'olive' skin with Spanish: sure there are regionale and individual differences, but but...

Knovas
16-11-11, 10:10
And surely you have the exact percent of this dark Spaniards. "If not all of them"...come on xd

To my count the thing goes: two days; two barbarities about ethnic groups. ¿Another "dark" (LOL) period in Eupedia? I hope not.

By the way, this thread seems to be over.

Kardu
16-11-11, 23:20
And surely you have the exact percent of this dark Spaniards. "If not all of them"...come on xd

To my count the thing goes: two days; two barbarities about ethnic groups. ¿Another "dark" (LOL) period in Eupedia? I hope not.

By the way, this thread seems to be over. Yes, unless some new contradictory data shows up, all is clear here :)

oreo_cookie
27-11-11, 15:51
http://www.armenianweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GarenBoyajian.jpghttp://www.168.am/images/2006/03/25-comedy-2.jpghttp://ianyanmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/tulip-761651-761711.jpghttp://www.epilgrim.org/images/epi08.jpghttp://www.azad-hye.net/media/s1/chess-armenian-men-team.jpghttp://media.independent.com/img/photos/2008/04/24/armenian.jpg

Kardu
27-11-11, 21:33
Armenians ;) girl and a man on the second photo could have been Georgians.

oreo_cookie
27-11-11, 21:38
I'm starting to be able to tell the difference between Armenians and Georgians.

Canek
29-11-11, 14:26
Armenians are whiter than people in southern Europe (spain, italy...)

Kardu
29-11-11, 22:15
Armenians are whiter than people in southern Europe (spain, italy...)Lol, are you tr0lling or what?!

LeBrok
29-11-11, 23:23
Canek got permaban for playing provocateur on many threads today.

Kardu
30-11-11, 00:17
Canek got permaban for playing provocateur on many threads today.Thanks, good to know

Antigone
30-11-11, 07:10
Canek got permaban for playing provocateur on many threads today.

He was not very clever nor inventive about it though. Just repeated the same rubbish over and over again, Spanish are African, Southern Europeans are lazy and South Americans are the best thing since sliced bread. A child could have done better.

Knovas
30-11-11, 10:14
Maximum tr0lling (L) jaja

Thank you, it's good to see that the seriously ILL behaviour is punished.


Armenians ;) girl and a man on the second photo could have been Georgians.
Yes, I agree. In fact, there's substantial shared ancestry between Georgians and Armenians, so I guess more or less 1 between 15 Armenians could fit into Georgia in average. Just an impression.

jurrian
30-11-11, 10:34
I agree with lebowky and goga. Armenians look like iberians the most. But armenians have lesser african admixture and more asiatic admixture. Regards.

Knovas
30-11-11, 11:05
This sounds familiar to me...3 posts refering to the same, ¡what a casuality!

Well, let's remind the West Eurasian plot: PNG image (http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5977/weunov011.png)

The plot does not see ANY genetic overlap in regards for admixture. ES samples (Spain) and the AM's (Armenia) are quite far away from each other.

oreo_cookie
13-12-11, 08:01
Anyone else?

Kardu
13-12-11, 10:40
According to Dienekes' new K12a oracle calculator one can see significant difference between the 2 groups which apparently gets reflected in phenotypes too:

[1,] "Armenians" "0"
[2,] "Armenian_D" "7.8708"
[3,] "Armenians_Y" "8.0839"
[4,] "Turks" "10.2303"
[5,] "Turkish_D" "11.6803"
[6,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "13.4142"
[7,] "Assyrian_D" "14.2794"
[8,] "Georgia_Jews" "15.099"
[9,] "Kumyks_Y" "16.2868"
[10,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "16.3374"

[1,] "Georgians" "0"
[2,] "Abhkasians_Y" "3.0806"
[3,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "15.4032"
[4,] "Balkars_Y" "17.1225"
[5,] "Adygei" "17.311"
[6,] "Armenians" "22.0152"
[7,] "Chechens_Y" "22.3917"
[8,] "Armenians_Y" "25.2067"
[9,] "Armenian_D" "25.5484"
[10,] "Kumyks_Y" "26.0678"

Kardu
13-12-11, 10:43
DodecadOracle("Georgians", mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Georgians" "0"
[2,] "5% Bulgarians_Y + 95% Abhkasians_Y" "0.8304"
[3,] "5% Bulgarian_D + 95% Abhkasians_Y" "0.8768"
[4,] "4.2% N_Italian_D + 95.8% Abhkasians_Y" "0.9666"
[5,] "4.9% Romanians + 95.1% Abhkasians_Y" "0.9746"
[6,] "3.4% French_D + 96.6% Abhkasians_Y" "1.0087"
[7,] "5.8% Greek_D + 94.2% Abhkasians_Y" "1.0207"
[8,] "4% North_Italian + 96% Abhkasians_Y" "1.0214"
[9,] "3.5% French + 96.5% Abhkasians_Y" "1.0408"
[10,] "4.6% Tuscan + 95.4% Abhkasians_Y" "1.0462"

DodecadOracle("Armenians", mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenians" "0"
[2,] "71.6% Armenian_D + 28.4% Adygei" "3.3841"
[3,] "71.8% Armenian_D + 28.2% Balkars_Y" "3.5543"
[4,] "74.8% Armenian_D + 25.2% Chechens_Y" "3.7812"
[5,] "68.7% Turkish_D + 31.3% Abhkasians_Y" "4.0145"
[6,] "28.2% Adygei + 71.8% Armenians_Y" "4.0967"
[7,] "66.4% Turkish_D + 33.6% Georgians" "4.1136"
[8,] "71.9% Armenians_Y + 28.1% Balkars_Y" "4.1788"
[9,] "73.7% Armenian_D + 26.3% North_Ossetians_Y" "4.2326"
[10,] "70.8% Armenian_D + 29.2% Kumyks_Y" "4.4999"

Knovas
13-12-11, 11:26
Well, the difference was also noticeable before, now it's just more evident. We'll see the v4 version how it looks.

Kardu
13-12-11, 11:31
Well, the difference was also noticeable before, now it's just more evident. We'll see the v4 version how it looks. Yes, hopefully he'll present it sometime soon :)

Kardu
14-12-11, 19:04
5417http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?p=622175

Kardu
28-12-11, 11:21
Interesting website with lot of old and new photos of Armenians http://www.houshamadyan.org/en/home.html

julia90
27-02-12, 23:43
they would fit without a problem in soutern europe from italy to the balkans.. i bet it would be difficult to spot them here from the locals

Kardu
01-03-12, 02:21
they would fit without a problem in soutern europe from italy to the balkans.. i bet it would be difficult to spot them here from the locals

Genrally Armenians look Levantine, Georgians - South European. I myself could guess a native Georgian from any South European 999 times out 1000 because of specific shape of eyes, eyebrows and nose. But then again, I am interested in thistopic and have kind of a trained eye :)

julia90
03-03-12, 01:31
Genrally Armenians look Levantine, Georgians - South European. I myself could guess a native Georgian from any South European 999 times out 1000 because of specific shape of eyes, eyebrows and nose. But then again, I am interested in thistopic and have kind of a trained eye :)

well dieneks said that west asian genes are very near to european genes, even more near to european genes than the genes he labeld "mediterranean", thought i don't remeber well and i didn't comprehend well to where the peak of mediterranean genes is.

here you can see, link:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fw1LU3Ln7oM/TuYW3xfUu6I/AAAAAAAAEW0/hdBpE8PV7Jg/s1600/1_2.png

Kardu
05-03-12, 14:27
well dieneks said that west asian genes are very near to european genes, even more near to european genes than the genes he labeld "mediterranean", thought i don't remeber well and i didn't comprehend well to where the peak of mediterranean genes is.

here you can see, link:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fw1LU3Ln7oM/TuYW3xfUu6I/AAAAAAAAEW0/hdBpE8PV7Jg/s1600/1_2.png

This does not mechanically translate into a phenotype similarity.
There are indeed many common features between South Europeans and Georgians and particular individuals might be not distinguishable but in general one can see local peculiarities. I can even tell from which of the country a Georgian comes from by looks.

julia90
05-03-12, 23:57
to me pure west asian or caucasian (as sometimes is called), can pass in italy without problem (and probably in all southern balkans)
??? i don't see any differences...

Kardu
06-03-12, 14:15
How many of us have you seen in real life? :)
Yes, from the first glance many Georgians could pass for Italians but if one looks closer he or she will notice certain differences.
And West Asian/Caucasian types are quite distinct from each other as well.

adamo
13-04-13, 01:21
In my opinion Georgians and Armenians can pass as certain Greeks, Italians, certainly Cretans Cypriots and Sicilians mostly

albanopolis
05-05-13, 23:57
In Albania there is a community of 3000 Armenians from Ottoman holocaust time. I had seen them since I was a kid. Never new they were foreign until they created a society called "Armenians". I new they had the male names Armen very common but I thought that is just a name not common in Albania. Unless they tell you, one never knows they are not Albanians. In France they have a large community 400 000. In Albania any Caucasian fits. We have types whiter than swedes, blonder than 90% of Germanic's and dark types as the bottom of a frying pan. Any shade in between is there. DNA makeup shows that. Any possible Caucasian haplogroup is there. So, yes Armenians, Georgians fit perfectly in Albanian society.

adamo
06-05-13, 00:58
Not all Albanians , only a 20% fraction of them are J2, and of those 20%, there is quite a lot of Greco-Albanian J2b, so subtract that, then those are similar to Armenians.

American Idiot
20-11-13, 13:32
There isn't a box to tick for nowhere.

To my eye these people above don't look like any European population, I think it is the nose that makes the difference. If I had to choose anywhere I'd say Lebanon, which isn't Europe.

I agree with you.These photos look more Lebanese than anywhere else, IMO

Alan
28-11-14, 23:43
But what I mean is, Georgians to me do not look any more Eastern European or Slavic than Armenians do.. they just simply don't look Lebanese-like the way Armenians do. Georgians have their own look that some Armenians share (the ones who don't look Levantine).
Thats absolutely a wrong statement. Anyone familiar with Armenians and Georgians can tell that Georgians look more like Balkanians/Southeast Europeans as Armenians do. Also the Images presented here are not very representativ and create a false impression.

Even putting Georgians and Armenians in the same category and asking with a poll were both could fit gives the wrong impression as if Georgians and Armenians are almost identical. But the reality is the genetic difference between Georgians and Armenians is as high as the genetic difference between German, French, Iberians or Italians.

Armenians usually vary from very Levantine+Cypriot to very Anatolian, Caucasian or Iranian looking. Georgians look more like East or South Europeans with an Iranian or Anatolian touch.

What I have noticed about most of Orea_Cookies threads is, she seems to have a clear picture in her head which she tries to impose on other by presenting relatively cherry picked images .

http://abload.de/img/mfa_eurogenes_mdszzo3v.png

Alan
28-11-14, 23:47
It's this picture..

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3259/g14d.jpg

I wouldn't like any of them as my neighbor.

This is one of these examples which are very badly chosen and give a false impression. The most "atypical" Georgians of all the group are the most highlited.

Alan
28-11-14, 23:54
Though Google is not the best source but when I search for Georgian people the very first images which come up are these here.

http://media.englishrussia.com/112012/peopleoftbilisi/peopleoftbilisi001-12.jpg


https://imageshack.com/f/0722453177jhttp://cs11427.userapi.com/u26076829/139406002/y_6f75527f.jpg

http://europaregina.eu/Graphics/country/georgia/costume-georgia.jpg


6860

Alan
29-11-14, 00:14
When I google Armenian People some of the very first images which come up are these.

http://jerseysandhockeylove.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/armenian007.jpg

https://peopleofar.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/arpine-hovhannisyan1.jpg

http://news.am/img/news/12/50/33/default.jpg
http://evsymca.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/cimg3296.jpg

http://www.epilgrim.org/photo_archives/DSC03464.jpg




There is an obvious and visible difference. Usually North Armenians look closer to Georgians while South Armenians to Levantines+Cyrpiots, Anatolians, or Iranians. Anyone familiar with these two groups will confirm that and no set of selective images could change this reality.

joeyc
29-11-14, 09:28
Georgians are basically Iranians/Kurds/Iraqis without ASI and with more ANE.

Armenians are Assyrians who shifted to an Indo European language.

POLAKWO's map is a joke and is not worth a penny outside of anthroboards.

Alan
29-11-14, 14:37
Georgians are basically Iranians/Kurds/Iraqis without ASI and with more ANE.

Armenians are Assyrians who shifted to an Indo European language.

POLAKWO's map is a joke and is not worth a penny outside of anthroboards.



The map is not Polakos work. It is a map of MfA based on Polakos data.

I will list a view wrong things in your comment.
1.ASI and ANE (two components of two different calcultors from two completely differen't timeframes) are not conflicting components.
2. ANE is an ancestral component which partly gave birth to ASI too. So you can have higher ASI but at the same time also higher ANI.
3. ASI in Iranians is around 4%, among Kurds 1% and Iraqis should be relatively similar. I don't think this can be the only and main difference to Georgians. Georgians for example have significantly less of the southern farmer, Southwest Asian admixture https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
4. ANE is slightly higher in both Iranians and Kurds than in Georgians.. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v4zYizoWtsoW1MNBN7SUrLf8R62NHPbMRySUJ2J48_Q/edit#gid=1410860471
5. Saying Georgians are basically Iranians/Kurds/Iraqis with more ANE (which is a false statement in itself just for the ANE part) is as logical as saying Germans are basically Italians with more North European less Mediterranean/Southwest Asian, because thats what they technically are. But outside Anthroboards no one would take serious.

joeyc
29-11-14, 16:04
First of all do not quote pseudo scientific crap like Dodecad and Eurogenes.

Then Lazaridis et al found that Caucausians have higher ANE ancestry compared to Iranians, Armenians and other Middle Easterners. Otherwise they are pretty much the same. On the intra west Eurasian plot they are also very close.

Georgians are pretty much the same as Iranians, Kurds and non Beduin Iraqis, but without the ASI component. You can even see that in the spreadsheet from Lazaridis et al.

Said that I don't think none of them can really pass in Europe, let alone Eastern Europe like Russia and Poland where people are much lighter and Mesolitich influenced. Georgians are 0% Mesolitich while Poles are mostly Mesolitich (70% at least).

Kardu
29-11-14, 19:11
First of all do not quote pseudo scientific crap like Dodecad and Eurogenes.

Then Lazaridis et al found that Caucausians have higher ANE ancestry compared to Iranians, Armenians and other Middle Easterners. Otherwise they are pretty much the same. On the intra west Eurasian plot they are also very close.

Georgians are pretty much the same as Iranians, Kurds and non Beduin Iraqis, but without the ASI component. You can even see that in the spreadsheet from Lazaridis et al.

Said that I don't think none of them can really pass in Europe, let alone Eastern Europe like Russia and Poland where people are much lighter and Mesolitich influenced. Georgians are 0% Mesolitich while Poles are mostly Mesolitich (70% at least).

You might need make an appointment with an oculist :)
I am 100% Georgian but when I travel through Greece, Italy or Spain locals are usually surprised to find out that I am a foreigner.
I am able to distinguish a Georgian from any other ethnicity, same goes for a Spaniard or Italian, because I know which facial or other anthropological cues to look for, but your categorical tone is ridiculous

Hauteville
30-11-14, 01:06
Georgians are basically Iranians/Kurds/Iraqis without ASI and with more ANE.

Armenians are Assyrians who shifted to an Indo European language.

POLAKWO's map is a joke and is not worth a penny outside of anthroboards.
Armenians and assyrians are very close genetically but both ethnic groups speak a different linguistical family language?armenians are indoeuropeans and assyrians are semitic, interesting.

Mars
30-11-14, 14:25
The very most types depicted in these pictures look foreign to every european country, I think. Maybe some of these people are admixed with russians, but the most part have particular, "exotic" features.

Alan
30-11-14, 20:47
First of all do not quote pseudo scientific crap like Dodecad and Eurogenes.

:laughing: We might not agree with everything what they intepret but I don't think neither you or me is in the position to call Dienekes or Polako pseudo scientists. Ironic also because you quote Lazaridis, probably not knowing who he really is.


Then Lazaridis et al found that Caucausians have higher ANE ancestry compared to Iranians, Armenians and other Middle Easterners. Otherwise they are pretty much the same. On the intra west Eurasian plot they are also very close.

No you are misintepreting him. Lazaridis says in his work, that in Western Asia ANE peaks in North Caucasus. That doesn't automatically conclude that all North Caucasian ethnic groups have more ANE than Iranians or other Middle Easterners. Adding to that, Georgians are technically speaking not North (even if they cluster genetically closest to them)but West Caucasians. And Georgians have ANE level comparal to Anatolian Turks. The Only Caucasians having more ANE ancestry than Iranians, Kurds or even Iraqis are Nakh-Dagestin speakers (majority of North Caucasians) but not Kartvelian Speakers (West Caucasians).




Georgians are pretty much the same as Iranians, Kurds and non Beduin Iraqis, but without the ASI component. You can even see that in the spreadsheet from Lazaridis et al.
If you claim something than provide the source for your claim. Just a post before I tried to explain you that the ASI in Iranians, Kurds or Iraqis could (and very likely is) ANE derived and Kalash like.


Said that I don't think none of them can really pass in Europe, let alone Eastern Europe like Russia and Poland where people are much lighter and Mesolitich influenced. Georgians are 0% Mesolitich while Poles are mostly Mesolitich (70% at least).

I advise you to read more about the most recent scientific papers. You are at least 3 years behind with your knowledge about genetics. Mesolithic, lighter? Those two thinks oppose each other so much that I don't know where to start. I could list you so many things false about that statement, but I am not going to bother.

You also keep calling Georgians "slightly lighter skinned Kurds, Iranians or Iraqis" as if you could spot a lighter skinned version of these with easy. This is pseudo scientific talk of AnthroBoards. Maybe they are simply slightly lighter skinned West Asians. At the end of the day All Europeans are up to 80% just lighter skinned West Asians.

If that man told you he is Irish or French, would you jump up and and shout "no you are an Iraqi". 6866

And obviously you have never seen a Georgian personally in your entire life otherwise you wouldn't talk like that. I have seen enough of them. They have their own look different from Armenians, Kurds, Iranians or Turks. Of course there is enough overlap. But there is also overlap to Near Easterners from different parts of Europe, because at the end of the day most of theEuropean genes came from the Near East. For example the "Mediterranean" genes in Europe are Southwest Asian and West Asian related, proto farmer derived ferticle crescent DNA, also. The only difference to Georgians here. That their farmer DNA has merged with 1/3 of ANE and became "West Asian" while in Europe it merged with 1/4 WHG and became known as "Mediterranean" and Europeans have additional but ANE related WHG.

And about the Armenians. They are as much "indo Europinized" as allot of nations in Europe.

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:15
The very most types depicted in these pictures look foreign to every european country, I think. Maybe some of these people are admixed with russians, but the most part have particular, "exotic" features.
I agree, i think armenians and georgians look different. I know that they are genetically different armenians have more sw asian admixture than georgians and ydna speaking 30% of R1b and less J2.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 07:36
I agree, i think armenians and georgians look different. I know that they are genetically different armenians have more sw asian admixture than georgians and ydna speaking 30% of R1b and less J2.

Georgians have more tendency toward looking Balkan, and tend to be longer-faced with softer features than Armenians. Armenians sometimes look Semitic, consistent with their shared origins with Assyrians.

joeyc
01-12-14, 09:53
@Alan

Georgians have been mixing with Kurds, Armenians, Azeris and Turks for centuries. Georgia was also for centuries under Tatar, Mongolian, Persian and Arab domination. Most of the Georgian samples from Behar come from Western Georgia. Eastern Georgians are pretty much like the Kurds, but without the ASI component.

BTW South Ossetions score 6-7% East Asian admixture from mixing with Tatars AFAIK.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 10:17
Georgians have more tendency toward looking Balkan, and tend to be longer-faced with softer features than Armenians. Armenians sometimes look Semitic, consistent with their shared origins with Assyrians.
Talking of the few armenians i see in real life i think they look caucasians + anatolian and mesopotamian while georgians probably look more typical caucasian. What surprise me is that armenians speak an indo european language and assyrians are semitic.

joeyc
01-12-14, 10:49
Armenians from the Caucasus look Caucasians. Armenians from the Levant look Assyrian. Armenians from Anatalia (the so called Hemshim) look Anatolian.

Most Diaspora Armenians are from the Levant and Anatolia.

Plenty of Armenians and Assyrians shifted ethnicity to escape the genocide.

Kardu
01-12-14, 13:12
@Alan

Georgians have been mixing with Kurds, Armenians, Azeris and Turks for centuries. Georgia was also for centuries under Tatar, Mongolian, Persian and Arab domination. Most of the Georgian samples from Behar come from Western Georgia. Eastern Georgians are pretty much like the Kurds, but without the ASI component.

BTW South Ossetions score 6-7% East Asian admixture from mixing with Tatars AFAIK.

LOL you clearly seem to have some agenda
Tu non sei italiano..

Alan
01-12-14, 18:11
@Alan

Georgians have been mixing with Kurds, Armenians, Azeris and Turks for centuries. Georgia was also for centuries under Tatar, Mongolian, Persian and Arab domination. Most of the Georgian samples from Behar come from Western Georgia.

Spain was under Moorish rule for almost 800 years. During the Roman Empire and even later Italy was a meeting point of many cultures and people who migrated and also stayed there.

After WW1 1.5 Mio Pontiacs, thats 15% of the total Greek population, settled somewhere in Northern Greece.


Eastern Georgians are pretty much like the Kurds, but without the ASI component.

Joey thats again an allegation just based on an opinion. Eastern Georgia isn't necesarry all Georgian most Azeris of Georgia live in this part of the country and I have seen real Georgians from Kakheti and they do not cluster differen't from other Georgians. Contrary East Georgia borders North Azerbaijan too, which is populated by Lezgians and Lezgians and those cluster even with North Caucasians!


BTW South Ossetions score 6-7% East Asian admixture from mixing with Tatars AFAIK.

So have Finns and Russians. Thats not an argument imo.

joeyc
01-12-14, 18:22
Ancient Italy was a meeting point of Germanic and Slavic Barbarians at most.

By the way I've also seen genetic results of Eastern and Central Georgians and they were very close to the Kurds, but without the ASI. You know in the middle east only Iranics, Azeris, Iraqi Arabs and some Turks have ASI ancestry.

Alan
01-12-14, 18:35
Ancient Italy was a meeting point of Germanic and Slavic Barbarians at most.

Now you are completely denying any influx from North Africa and the Near East. Basically the ancient Mediterranean world and claim Germanic and Slavic Barbarians played a role? SLAVIC? Did anything called Slavs even exist back than? That must have been some of the most ridiculous things I have heard in some time.


By the way I've also seen genetic results of Eastern and Central Georgians and they were very close to the Kurds, but without the ASI. You know in the middle east only Iranics, Azeris, Iraqi Arabs and some Turks have ASI ancestry.

Do you not understand that no one will take you serious with your allegation if you don't provide any scientific source for your claims?

Alan
01-12-14, 18:47
Georgians have more tendency toward looking Balkan, and tend to be longer-faced with softer features than Armenians. Armenians sometimes look Semitic, consistent with their shared origins with Assyrians.


It's not just tendency it's just that Georgians just like North Caucasians look more distinct from other Near Eastern population. There are allot of Armenians who can pass in Southern Europe but even those could equally pass in Western Asia. Georgians on the other hand have types which would be perceived as "foreign" or distinct to even Northern Near Easterners like Iranians, Kurds, Turks or Armenians, and they would initially be considered as Europeans or atleast "exotic" looking Europeans.

I will prove my Argument with one simple method. I searched for a frequent Georgian first name and "Irakli" innitial came to my mind. Than I went on Wikipedia and searched for any famous Georgian with this surname and the result was pretty much a confirmation for my experience.

This is the list of famous Georgians with the first name "Irakli". You can check yourself and no one can claim any sort of cherry picking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli

And these are images of them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Irakli_Alasania_2014-09-07.jpg/640px-Irakli_Alasania_2014-09-07.jpg

http://architecture.gtu.ge/html/personalia/images/Portraits/ochiauri.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4009/4565874409_764c154cde_z.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Irakli_Menagharishvili_%28March_20%2C_2001%29.jpg

http://nightshow.ge/photos/guest/138_2.jpg

http://0.static.wix.com/media/25cd3d_e8e3e8a971a27fbf496b9398fd7b4594.jpg_512 (http://nightshow.ge/photos/guest/138_2.jpg)

http://cs303108.vk.me/v303108599/2e6/AQ6NfxRzUaQ.jpg

http://www.fussballzz.de/img/jogadores/02/60602_ori_irakli_kobalia.png

http://www.geocities.ws/georgiasoccer/ZazaRevishvili.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Irakly_Andronikov.jpg/220px-Irakly_Andronikov.jpg

http://www.easywl.com/results/lifters/132/M640.jpg

http://0.static.wix.com/media/25cd3d_397e398e9427673bbf4ad7a4abd0bbbb.jpg_512

http://static.iltalehti.fi/jalkapallo/iraklietu070713HH_503_vg.jpg

http://sztkfutball.hu/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/irakli-kvekveskiri-600x600.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Logua-Irakliy.jpg

http://skontofc.com/bildes/speletaji/klimiashvili.jpg

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Olympics%2BDay%2B5%2BJudo%2BmurWp1nQOx6l.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7228/7260713794_fb566b93ed_z.jpg

http://www.labadze.ru/design/labadze-photo.jpg

http://www.ogol.com.br/img/jogadores/84/179684_ori_irakli_modebadze.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Irakli_Garibashvili_2013._2.jpg/1280px-Irakli_Garibashvili_2013._2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f7/Abashidze_irakli.jpg

http://site.rugby.ge/_rugby/images/QIASA.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Irakli_Okruashvili.jpg

No one can tell me he would be able to spot them collectively as "foreigners".

Alan
01-12-14, 19:11
But than when I do the same with an Armenian common name. I get these results which also confirm my experience.

looked for famous people with the first name "Gagik".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagik

Images
http://168.am/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Gagik-Harutyunyan1-e1351330101977.jpg

http://cs316225.vk.me/v316225591/6241/t-wbs8DcOXA.jpg

http://www.hyefighters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Gago-Drago4.jpg

http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/artists_cma/hovounts.jpg

http://cs416231.vk.me/v416231487/3db1/oi17DzyN5X4.jpg

http://slaq.am/images/news_0/22484661324391356.jpg

You can't really claim that both these groups are so extremely similar that it is justified to put them in the same category.

joeyc
01-12-14, 19:18
Now you are completely denying any influx from North Africa and the Near East. Basically the ancient Mediterranean world and claim Germanic and Slavic Barbarians played a role? SLAVIC? Did anything called Slavs even exist back than? That must have been some of the most ridiculous things I have heard in some time.

:useless:

Please don't compare Italy who was the center of the European civilization, always part of the Germanic/Western/European sphere with backward middle eastern countries like Georgia or Ossetia.

Angela
01-12-14, 19:33
:useless:

Please don't compare Italy who was the center of the European civilization, always part of the Germanic/Western/European sphere with backward middle eastern countries like Georgia or Ossetia.

Where on earth does that come from? Going by I1 and U-106 levels in Italy, commonly accepted as "Germanic" markers, the "Germanic" influence on Italy is minimal genetically. Culturally, the benefits and the civilization all went in the other direction, i.e. from the east to Greece, then Italy, and then spreading to central and western Europe.

Perhaps some more in depth reading of history is in order, with a special emphasis on the development of agriculture, urbanization, writing, metallurgy, and so on. I would then recommend reading some history about the destruction of Italy and Greco Roman civilization as the result of the Germanic "wanderings". It took 1000 years to recover, and I'm being generous.

joeyc
01-12-14, 19:41
Sista I don't want to go off topic, but it was the Germanic Barbarians who defended and ruled the Roman Empire in its final stage. Later on the Germanic Barbarians built the Holy Roman Empire which included Italy.

Anyway I was just trol.ling these bunch of light skinned Iraqis... ops Georgians... because one of these genius said that Georgians look Eastern European or something like that.

Consider my trol.ling here ended.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 22:10
Italy was part of the Greco-Roman, and then Roman/Latin world, not the Germanic one. When civilization existed in Italy, the Germanic world was still barbaric. :lol: Not trying to be rude or disrespectful -- there is no disrespect there -- but that is the truth.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 22:20
Please don't compare Italy who was the center of the European civilization

Magna Grecia
Etruria
Celtic north Italy
Roman Empire
Comuni
First parliament in the world (Mazara del Vallo 1097)
First official vulgar language become official language of italian people in the latin world (first Federico II school and Tuscany school)
ecc ecc ;)