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Bodin
16-09-11, 00:44
If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).
Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

Cobol19
16-09-11, 00:45
Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.

The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?


Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

Bodin
16-09-11, 02:12
1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html)

2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.
1)No I read it realy god first time , but I believed you will understand you mistake . Well hier is the quote ( just below your maps ) from that tread :"seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).



This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture."
So what he says hier is that there is I2a2 in Caucasus , but in low frequencies , except in Dargins and Abhkaz were it is realy high . I already provided papers that show high i amongs Ossetians , but only in two aerias Digora and Ardon( up to 30% ) , rest of North Ossetians and all south Ossetians have no I ( because of heavy mixing with Caucasian populations - which is shown by lot of G , actualy South Ossetians could be native population that just accepted Iranic languague ) - and that would produce low I2 in overall Ossetian population - same thing with Tatars from our previous dispute .
Thank you for evidence there is I2 in Central Asia - 3/ 1525 , but that is aeria where old population was mostly exchanged by incoming Turks and then mongols.
2)Yes on North there is less I2 but there is also less R1a( 30%) and high N- there is a lot of Russicized Fins , But east was setled by Russians from that aerias that you call " historicaly Russian "

Bodin
16-09-11, 02:24
Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.



Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.
O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

Cobol19
16-09-11, 02:28
O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

- Proto-Indo-European
-- Indo-European
--- Proto-Indo-Iranian
---- Indo-Iranian
----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.

Bodin
16-09-11, 02:31
I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.
Ofcourse it is theory , we are hier to discus theories. I2a cant be on Balkans such long period - its old only 2.500 years , and wouldnt Phrygians or Cymmerians give it to Turks also ? There is no way I2a2 would live in hart of R1a Urheimat - steppes north of Black sea and not get mixed with it - only 5% of Slavic R1a Serbia .

Bodin
16-09-11, 02:35
Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.



Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.



Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.



I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.



I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.
So , now proto Indo European is from Andronovo - west Siberia and Medes and Persians are from Persian satrapy Ariana - and again it is realy comon name amongs IE speackers
Kurds are geneticaly trealy different than they neighbours , why comparing them with Russians , nobody said Kurds are Slavic?

Bodin
16-09-11, 03:00
The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?



I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.


No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

Bodin
16-09-11, 03:06
That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

- Proto-Indo-European
-- Indo-European
--- Proto-Indo-Iranian
---- Indo-Iranian
----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.
Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

Cobol19
16-09-11, 03:44
No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

Cobol19
16-09-11, 03:46
No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.


Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.

sparkey
16-09-11, 17:25
Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

zanipolo
16-09-11, 22:45
Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
Thats how I understood it

sparkey
16-09-11, 23:17
Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from.
I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
Thats how I understood it

Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

zanipolo
16-09-11, 23:49
Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

sparkey
16-09-11, 23:56
you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

Yeah, no matter what we do, we end up with the Balkans having a lot of Classical/Medieval input and less Paleolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age input than we might expect. I suspect that the Y-DNA frequencies across the Balkans were a lot more like what they are in Albania now before this input, that is, less I2 and R1a, and more R1b, J2, J1, and E1b.

(I1? Not really, I1 is also fairly young and would have been largely confined to a smallish area around Denmark/Germany/Sweden/etc. until the Migration Period).

Pyrub
17-09-11, 03:42
The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

Sile
17-09-11, 04:01
The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

your point 1 - we can agree with this until further evidence arrives.

2 - languages exist based on the government in power, if the government shows genocidial tendencies to NOT allow these other languages to be taught in schools, then the language would die. Since most nations practice this form of Genocide on cultures within their nation. what kind of democracy do we have.?
I am not NOT referring to migrational languages. The only reason that celtic and/or latin did not remain in vogue, was that it was used solely as a commerce language. Slavic was forced by the sword to be used, thats why it dominated .


3- you are joking? . An area which was infested with Illyrian tribes , which gave the macedonians and Romans much trouble to conquer .

You do know that between the adriatic sea and the dinaric mountains is only about 50Kms , actually between 1 to 60Kms
What about the rest of the western balkans?

Bodin
17-09-11, 04:27
Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.
:laughing: yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

Bodin
17-09-11, 04:32
Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.



According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.
I was allways saying to you that Scythian ( and Slavic)DNA is R1a1 ( and probably some N and Q ) , I never said that I2a1b is Scythain or Slavic , I said it is SARMATHIAN . Do you read my treads at all ? Or you just love to argue ?

Bodin
17-09-11, 04:36
Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?
Well I wouldnt call it Northern Slavic DNA - highets frequency of I2a1b is in Ukraine and Moldova - Sarmathian habitat , while it is much decreased in North Russia - actualy there is much stronger Germanic and Finnic DNA .

Bodin
17-09-11, 05:04
Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?
Well hier is reason why I dismis Slavs as carriers of I2a1b -1) there is no archeological evidence of any numerous Slavic settling on Balkans 2) Serbs and Croats are mentioned by Pliny like Sorabi and Heruatas - Sarmathian tribes and 3) and most important - Slavic DNA in Serbia , Bosnia ,and all over Balkans is not more than 5% of total population ( except Croatia and Slovenia - but Croatia incorporated Slavonia - part of Slavic Balaton duchy , and Avars settled Slovenia with Slavs - like the name of both Slavonia and Slovenia says), while in Serbia , Croatia and Bosnia , there is over 40% of I2a1b ( if that would be whole incoming population there would be 89% of I2a1b and 11% of Slavic R1a- ofcourse R1a had comed in other Slavic tribes to like Moravci and Timochani that comed before Serbs ) , and in Slavic populations there is no more than 16% of I2a1b and over 50% of R1a ( if that would be total Slavic population ratio would be 25% I2a1b to 75%R1a ) - only explanation is mixing of diferent populations not same population
4)If I2a1b was in Ukraine since LGM it would have to be lot more mixed with R1a ( Yamna culture is proto IE - R1a carriers ) - so there is no way Serbs would have only 5% of slavic R1a
Thats my main reasons I dont believe I2a1b is Slavic , but reminescence of Sarmathians that lived on North coast of Black sea before Slavs - either tru mixing of Sarmathians whit Slavs during they rule over them , either tru Russian conqueste of population North of Black sea and slavization

Bodin
17-09-11, 05:28
The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans.
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.
Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

Pyrub
17-09-11, 06:22
Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes
Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

Listen my Srb friend.

Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.

Bodin
18-09-11, 04:50
Listen my Srb friend.

Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.
Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population.
Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio
Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

Bodin
18-09-11, 04:52
Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?

zanipolo
18-09-11, 05:01
Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population.
Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio
Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?

E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration

rms2
18-09-11, 15:18
Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?

The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.

Bodin
18-09-11, 17:21
If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?

E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration
What do you consider North Illyrian - I believe North Illyrians were in Noricum ( later they were Celtisized ) and Panonia , and there is 10% of E1b in Austria and Hungary , in some aerias even stronger .
If you consider Dalmatia and Herzegovina North and central Illyrian lands : they were heavily depopulated and almoust all population is replaced - hier is another proof fro that - there is almoust no R1b in Bosnia and Herzegovina , but if old population would still be there R1b would have to be significant - Celts were present in that aeria - lot of Celtic place names , but almoust no Celtic haplogroups . Also Romans had to left some R1b , but it seems they are all killed or resetled
Dardanians were of mixed Illyrian and Thracians origins , Panonians are Illyrian tribe . Also I already spocked about forming of new tribes by Romans after rebellion of Panonian and Illyrian rebelion 6.-9. AD - Thracian , Illyrian and Celtic tribes were mixed - so since than they would have almoust same haplogroups - there is no significant genetic diference betwen Thracians ( including Dacians ) , and Illyrians ( including Panonians)

Bodin
18-09-11, 17:28
The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.
But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic

Cobol19
18-09-11, 17:56
Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:

a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.

c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 18:02
:laughing: yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence?

Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.

Goga
18-09-11, 18:08
if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic
there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.

According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:


Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+answ ers+to+one+question&pbx=1&oq=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+ans wers+to+one+question&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2075l2075l0l2496l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595


Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595

Goga
18-09-11, 18:17
Also, Kurdish and Georgian mtDNA is very close to each other!

From: American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 112, Issue 1, May 2000.
Written: David Comas, Francesc Calafell, Nina Bendukidze, Lourdes Fañanás, Jaume Bertranpetit.


Abstract

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

Am J Phys Anthropol 112:5–16, 2000. © 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract

rms2
18-09-11, 19:40
But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic

"Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.

Bodin
18-09-11, 20:26
No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence?

Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.
Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly. There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din , I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it. And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1b

Bodin
18-09-11, 20:31
there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.

According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:
Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point .
Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic

Bodin
18-09-11, 20:36
"Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.
Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically.
Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague

Cobol19
18-09-11, 20:40
Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly.

There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.


There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din ,The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.


I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it.So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.


And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1bI got mixed up and made an error with the marker name (M26), which is due to the recent changes and the paper using the older designations, but to make it clear, I believe the recent I2a1b (Previous I2a2) came to West Asia from the Southeast Europe via the Balkans, and it had nothing to do with the original Iranian populations that migrated from South-Central Asia to West Asia (Early Medes/Persians).

Bodin
18-09-11, 20:46
To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:

a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.

c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.
You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there . I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICAL
And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )

Bodin
18-09-11, 20:50
There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.

The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.

So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.

I got mixed up and made an error with the marker name (M26), which is due to the recent changes and the paper using the older designations, but to make it clear, I believe the recent I2a1b (Previous I2a2) came to West Asia from the Southeast Europe via the Balkans, and it had nothing to do with the original Iranian populations that migrated from South-Central Asia to West Asia (Early Medes/Persians).
I never said all I* in Kurdistan is I2a1b
Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*
It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?
How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?

Cobol19
18-09-11, 20:58
You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there .

"Almost none" does not mean "None", the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.

The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.


I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICALWhat's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.


And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.

You see Bodin you have a problem with providing evidence, everything you say means absolutely nothing unless you show the evidence, you saying this stuff is like me saying there's I2a1b among Aboriginal Australians, will you believe it? No, so unless you have evidence, stop making up fairytales.

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:08
"Almost none" does not mean "None", the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.

The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.

What's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.

a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.

You see Bodin you have a problem with providing evidence, everything you say means absolutely nothing unless you show the evidence, you saying this stuff is like me saying there's I2a1b among Aboriginal Australians, will you believe it? No, so unless you have evidence, stop making up fairytales.
No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:11
I made lapsus taping not Southwest Asia but South east . You also not proiding any evidence , there is more posibility there is I2a1b in Aboriginal Australians then it crossed from Balkans to Anatolia

Cobol19
18-09-11, 21:13
Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:

Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)
I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)

The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.


It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?The diversity of Iranian languages peak in South Central Asia, and according to Herodotus, that's where the Scythian homeland was before they left it due to wars with other Iranian tribes.


How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?The same way other haplogroups travel.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 21:16
No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble

Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:31
hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html#fig1
They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD
And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :
5161
Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )
Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theory

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:36
There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:

Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)
I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)

The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.

The diversity of Iranian languages peak in South Central Asia, and according to Herodotus, that's where the Scythian homeland was before they left it due to wars with other Iranian tribes.

The same way other haplogroups travel.
When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not southeast Asia but Central Asia
I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia

rms2
18-09-11, 21:38
Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically.
Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague

I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.

No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, you are a Slav (if you want to be).

But I am starting to get the picture that you are trying to sort out the ultimate origins of these haplogroups and connect them to ethnic groups. So, in that sense, you are saying that I2a1b is not truly Slavic in its origin. I think it has been a component in the Slavic profile for so long it's going to be hard to tease it apart from the "original Slavs", whoever and whatever they were.

I wish you luck!

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:41
Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.
It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
I say it simple :
1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
Did you understod now?

Goga
18-09-11, 21:43
Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point .
Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic

My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.

And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!

Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:46
I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.

No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, you are a Slav (if you want to be).
Yes it is I2a1b in Slavic land , but I trying to say it is from Sarmathians.We speack about origins of I2a1b .
Yes you are Slave if you are born in Slavic country , but your ancestry is not Slavic , but I also say there was never Slavic land in Balkans , only languague . Languague do not determine nationality .

rms2
18-09-11, 21:47
What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.

Bodin
18-09-11, 21:49
My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.

And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many tribes into Kurdistan!

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!

Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.
Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds
I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1b

Cobol19
18-09-11, 21:58
hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html#fig1
They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD

First, this is not even 0.5% :laughing:

Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.


And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :
5161
First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.


Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26788-Did-E1b1b-cross-directly-from-North-Africa-to-Europe-due-to-climate-change


Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theoryI already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.


When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not southeast Asia but Central Asia
I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia

Where did I say Southeast Asia? I said South-Central Asia, this consists Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, South Kazakhstan, Eastern Iran, and Northern/Western parts of Pakistan.


It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
I say it simple :
1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
Did you understod now? What do Diodorus and Pliny have to do with haplogroup I2a1b? :laughing:

Goga
18-09-11, 22:00
Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds
I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1bYou're right!

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:02
And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!

A gene flow and migration are pretty much the same thing, so yes, it was a gene flow.


If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.


I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.It is the same origin, but surely, it's not an original Iranian lineage that's for sure.

Goga
18-09-11, 22:04
I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.
Why do you hate the Medes so much? I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.

Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.

WHAT makes you believe that the Medes are from Central Asia???

Goga
18-09-11, 22:06
Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!

And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!

Bodin
18-09-11, 22:07
What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.
I already posted my theory , but hier is another one for your stepson :

There is more reliable explanation of Sarmatian origins than that given by Herodotus( that they are descendants of Amazons and Scytians).Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .
I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland - Krakow provincea Ukraine - Lviv aeria and Slovakia( Tatras )-Bielochorbatoi and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus ( Red Ruthenia , Galicia ) - Boiki or Rusini named after Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Pliny say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes ,Macedonia after XIII century), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians (North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria , G could be Chimmerian- most of them finished on Caucasus after Lidians beated them ,Other higher than average densities of I occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there - Czech and Moravia , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family , Serbs coming from Boiki - Bohemia , Bavaria and Lusitania-Lužica in Germany ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani, Volga Tatars has high I) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia, Aragon , Basque), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Yazigian auxiliars after defeat against Marcus Aurelius- king Arthur) , Germany ( Serbs come on Balkans from river Elba-Laba , Sarland ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving - has nothing to do with Slavs .

Diferences Slavs - Serbs/Croats :Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .Slavic theory is based solely on languague , Sarmatians use to have more then one wife , while they use to fight , together with they Sarmatian wifes , Slavic wifes stayed at home briding childrens , so childrens had lurned Slavic languague , there is also other explanation that says Huns use Slavs like border guards ( it is proven Avars are ) , and small groups of Slavs transfered they languague like form of lingua Franca to conquered nations . It is proven that Slavic is very archaic - it has been spoken by small and closed group for over a millenium , it origins are proven to be around upper Pripyat.

There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans ,its spread showing it is grouped wich indicate there was resettling in near future , while older haplogroups - E1b1b1 , G2a and mythohondrial are more evenly spreaded all over Europe..And also if I2a2 is Peleolitic old population would make more then 80% of today Serbs which is imposible - Hunic and Avaro-Slavic invasions , litle ice age and plague that killed 30% of empire population during Justinian rule.

Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K2 , which is present on Altay.
There is also some N in Serbs but not in neighboring nations , so they use to mix with some Finnic tribes.
I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Thracians were mainly J2 ( comed from Asia Minor ), E1b1, some R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Dacians were Thracian tribe and similar to them , and Panonian to Illyrians.

I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a , Slavs alos had some I2a2 , N , and E1b1

Hope he will be satisfy:smile:

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:10
Why do you hate the Medes very much. I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.

Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.

WHAT makes you think that the Medes are from Central Asia???

Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :laughing:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.

Goga
18-09-11, 22:13
Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :laughing:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.

Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!

Bodin
18-09-11, 22:16
First, this is not even 0.5% :laughing:

Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.

First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.

Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26788-Did-E1b1b-cross-directly-from-North-Africa-to-Europe-due-to-climate-change

I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.



Where did I say Southeast Asia? I said South-Central Asia, this consists Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, South Kazakhstan, Eastern Iran, and Northern/Western parts of Pakistan.

What do Diodorus and Pliny have to do with haplogroup I2a1b? :laughing:
Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?- man
Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan
Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:17
Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!

And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!

I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.

Goga
18-09-11, 22:20
I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.There're millions Zaza-Gorani Kurds.

But there're just 20.000 maybe even less Yezidi Kurds left in Georgia!

Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them. Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name! Like Kurds changed their name now, from the Medes to Kurds.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.


The biggest Iranic tribe from Central Asia that settled in Kurdistan were Parthians !!! These Parthians were related to Central Asian Aryans!

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:22
Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.

There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.


Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.

Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.


Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!

Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.

Goga
18-09-11, 22:24
There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.



Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.



Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.
No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.

Bodin
18-09-11, 22:24
Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :laughing:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.
In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

Bodin
18-09-11, 22:27
There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.



Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.



Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.

In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

Goga
18-09-11, 22:27
And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!

Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull

Alan
18-09-11, 22:29
b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.



from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:37
Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?-

What's my qualifications? What are Eupedia's qualifications? Listen, I don't take any percentages or maps seriously unless they have sources, and until Maciamo provides where he got his sources from, the numbers and maps on this website are irrelevant.


Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan

It is South-Central Asia, Central Asia is pretty much north of this area (Kazakhstan, Southern Russia, etc), and parts of Pakistan belongs to this region (North Pakistan and anything west of the Indus).


Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .

I think they were more connected with the Scythians than with the Medes (Their language is the evidence for it), and the lineage that was likely passed down was R1a1a (Based on Scythian ancient DNA), not I2a1b.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:39
from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.

Yes, the BMAC specially since that's who the Andronovo folks mixed with, after that we start seeing some of the earliest Indo-Iranian traditions come to life.

Alan
18-09-11, 22:43
I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan

1. A Gene flow from Balkans
2. A Gen Drift (selection)
3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:47
No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.

Yea well a lot of people is not a source, the evidence indicate something different, Mitanni = Indo-Aryan, Medeian = Iranian, do they have the same origin? Ultimately yes, but different time-frames and different branches.


And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!

Historical evidence indicate something different, and you did not show me evidence for the Guti being Iranians, where's your source?


Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull

Your paranoia is once again getting in the way, but since you wanna go there, this is what I think, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians are mostly native to West Asia (Eastern Anatolia/Northwest Iran/Northern Mesopotamia specially), in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 22:53
I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan

1. A Gene flow from Balkans
2. A Gen Drift (selection)
3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.

Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).

Alan
18-09-11, 23:04
Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).

No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 23:16
No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.

Point 3 is indeed possible, but like I said, further studies have to show older subclades of I* in the region before actually accepting this theory.

I think point 1 seems like the strongest point going hand in hand with point 2 (And perhaps even with point 4), basically it's possible that haplogroup I* migrated from Europe to West Asia before the rise of any major civilization, and from there a few specific lineages got lucky and here we are today, their descendants are most fruitful among the Kurds, we see similar weird spikes of different lineages among other groups too.

But overall the best candidates for native lineages that I can think of are J2a and some of its subclades, J1* and some of its subclades, older lineages of R1b1b2 and R1b1b2a, along with some G2a lineages.

The main problem with some of these guesses is we're trying to determine this based on modern populations, assuming not much has happened in the history of the region, this would be ok, but this region has been a melting pot of different cultures, I hope the next step is investing in some ancient DNA studies.

Goga
18-09-11, 23:20
in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.Yeah right!

20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = 8 million Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthCentral Asian? And I'm not even talking about J2, G2 etc.
This my friend doesn't make any sense!

Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 23:53
Yeah right!

20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = 8 million Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthWest Asian? And I'm not talking about J2, G2 etc.
This my friend doesn't make any sense!

Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.

I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

Alan
19-09-11, 00:09
I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%) Also the number of Zaza Kurds lies probably at 2 Mio and not more. There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups equal value. If we take the known studies about Kurds in account than we come to a number between 17-20% However it might be possible that if more samples are taken it comes around 14-15%.

Goga
19-09-11, 00:12
I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.


There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
If you count these isolated Yezidi Kurds as equal to Northern Kurds, you're just manipulating the numbers!

I've got my data from Nasidze et al. (2005), like Maciamo does! Maciamo is 100% right!!!

My question to you, If Kurds are for 20% I2 folks, are they the same as Armenians or Assyrians? And are they from SouthCentral Asia?

The fact is, the original Kurds were never like Assyrians, Armenians. But Kurds as Iranic peoples are mixed with tribes from Caucasus, like Georgians! Or share the same roots as Georgians.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract


Like it or not, Kurds are not from Central Asia and original Kurds (of IRANIC origin) were NOT related to Armenians or Assyrians.

Alan
19-09-11, 00:18
Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.


calm down.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:19
Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%). There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups the same value.

Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:

Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Sample = 460
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 15.4%

Clearly not 20% as indicated, ohh and one more thing on this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Maciamo has reported 20% among Kurds in Turkey, by excluding the Iraqi Kurds from the above, the total percentage for the Kurds of Turkey should be 15%, not 20%, I'm not sure where he comes up with some of these numbers but I really like to hear what he has to say.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:24
Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.


There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
If you count these isolated Yezidi Kurds as equal to Northern Kurds, you're just manipulating the numbers!

I've got my data from Nasidze et al. (2005), like Maciamo does! Maciamo is 100% right!!!

My question to you, If Kurds are for 20% I2 folks, are they the same as Armenians or Assyrians? And are they from SouthCentral Asia?

The fact is, the original Kurds were never like Assyrians, Armenians. But Kurds as Iranic peoples are mixed with tribes from Caucasus, like Georgians! Or share the same roots as Georgians.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291096-8644%28200005%29112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract)


Like it or not, Kurds are not from Central Asia and original Kurds (of IRANIC origin) were NOT related to Armenians or Assyrians.

Wrong again, the total for Turkey Kurds comes up to 15%, unless Maciamo comes out with his sources, I'm right and he's wrong, but if you wanna follow what you like rather than facts, be my guest :bored:

Goga
19-09-11, 00:27
No, no, no and no!

Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

Alan
19-09-11, 00:31
Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:

Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Sample = 460
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 15.4%

Clearly not 20% as indicated, ohh and one more thing on this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Maciamo has reported 20% among Kurds in Turkey, by excluding the Iraqi Kurds from the above, the total percentage for the Kurds of Turkey should be 15%, not 20%, I'm not sure where he comes up with some of these numbers but I really like to hear what he has to say.

Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.


Turkey Kurds - 12.7%

could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?

Goga
19-09-11, 00:35
Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.



could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?I hope this will open his eyes.


Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 7.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. 2.000.000 - 3.000.000 (three million) of them. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:40
No, no, no and no!

Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.020.000 (1,02 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


Much more than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/)

There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:43
Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.

Even if I'm wrong about the Zazaki and what their traditions and customs are, this still does not prove me wrong about the amount of I* carried by Kurds in Turkey and what should be reported, in any case, I'm gonna assume that Maciamo only took one study into account, because it does not make any sense.


could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg

Alan
19-09-11, 00:45
Are you even aware that this study
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html

is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.

This study is well known by Maciamo and us but this study has nothing really zero to do with Kurds from Iraq or Anatolia. And the number of those Kurds is by far not more than that of Yezidi Kurds from Georgia.

Goga
19-09-11, 00:46
Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups (http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html) (Frequency (http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3014/jordan4it.jpg))

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274378/)

There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.
NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million. 15 % from 20.000.000 = 3.000.000 (three million). while 20 % from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
So instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) of all Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.

Big f&%^#* deal!

7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!

Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are and were I2 folks?

You're a tr0ll!

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:49
Are you even aware that this study
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html

is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.

The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:50
NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million, so instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.

Big f&%^#* deal!

7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!

Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are I2 folks?

You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.

Alan
19-09-11, 00:52
The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.

Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%

Cobol19
19-09-11, 00:55
Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%

I don't think he took them into account because adding these Kurds with the other ones from the Nasidze study brings the number from 20% to 15%.

Alan
19-09-11, 00:57
I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.

Goga
19-09-11, 01:01
You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.Congratulations, good for you!

Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!

And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!

Alan
19-09-11, 01:04
Ok now I know where yolu got this percentages from. They are from Flores. et al. Study. Flores. Et al. Simply used Nebel, Nasidze Study and used Georgians Kurds as well Turkmenistan Kurds equal.

Alan
19-09-11, 01:13
And Flores et al. indeed used Kurdish samples from Jordan too. In fact many are from Jordan.
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm

This study what you named "Turkey Kurds" was basically Kurd and based on Iraqi, Georgian, Turkmenistan, Jordanian and Anatolian Kurds. I don´t understand why you called this samples specifically Turkey Kurds.

Alan
19-09-11, 01:19
Congratulations, good for you!

Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!

And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!

Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?

Goga
19-09-11, 01:29
Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?
Because from the day 1 I knew he came here for trouble! And a lot folks here are waiting for my 'ban'.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 01:45
I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.

There are only 3 studies as far as I'm aware, thought you're right about the last one being from the two papers combined, so I'll admit that I was not aware of that myself and made an error, thanks for pointing it out and apologies on my part.

There's still a problem with Maciamo's numbers, assuming that he only took the Nasidze paper for the Kurds in Turkey, based on this, we're only assuming that he took the Zazaki and the Muslim Kurds, right? Here's the original data with both groups combined:

Sample Size = 114
E* - 11.4% (13)
C* - 1.8% (2)
K* - 9.6% (11)
R2a - 5.3% (7)
P* - 5.3% (6)
R1* - 6.1% (7)
R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
F* - 10.5% (12)
G* - 2.6% (3)
J2 - 10.5% (12)
I* - 20.2% (23)

Here's what Maciamo reported:

I - 20% (Check)
R1a - 16% (Check)
R1b - 6% (I'm guessing this is based on R1*)
G - 2.5% (Check)
J2 - 10.5% (Check)
J1 - 9.5% (Based on what?)
E - 11.5%
T - 5% (Based on what?)
L - 4.5% (Based on what?)
Q - 5% (I'm guessing this is based on P*?)
N - 0% (No comment)
Others - 9% (This seems mostly R2a)

The bold ones are questionable because it looks like this is what he did:

F* : 10.5% --> J1 : 9.5%
While J1 is indeed under F, among some of the other non reported lineages that also exist is haplogroup H for example, why do we assume 9.5% is J1? What is this assumption based on?

K* : 9.6% --> T : 5%
K* : 9.6% --> L : 4.5%
How did he figure out that these are the numbers for L and T? Yes, both lineages do fall under K*, but why assume with the numbers when we don't know?

R2a : 8% --> Other : 9%
Why add the extra percentage? Assumption again? seems like he broke down F between this and J1, why? What's the reason behind that?

sparkey
19-09-11, 01:46
In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

You guys post too fast for me to keep up... but I will say that these questions of Bodin's are critical to understanding I2a-Din, and that they're pretty much unanswerable by genetics alone at the moment. That is:

1) Must have been 2000 years ago +/- 1000 years given the STR diversity. But who brought it is another question. We know that its diversity is higher to the North, and we are fairly sure that there is no ancient Western European I2a-Din. But we don't know if its diversity is even higher in the East.
2) Who knows? We have zero data on STR diversity of I2a-Din in Kurdistan. And yet the Sarmatian theory relies a lot on having STR diversity data of I2a-Din in the East. Unfortunately Bodin's frequency-based conjecture could be way off due to genetic drift even if he has all his numbers right. We need multiple 37+ marker samples of Eastern I2a-Din. We don't have this.

Cobol19 is right that we should doubt the extent of our knowledge about I2a-Din in the East. The better default assumption, based on all that we know about Haplogroup I in general (that the center of diversity of every clade within it is in Europe) is that it is a relatively recent migrant from Europe.

BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds%28Kurdish-PeoPle%29-are-Europeans&p=377335&viewfull=1#post377335) which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).

Goga
19-09-11, 02:02
BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds%28Kurdish-PeoPle%29-are-Europeans&p=377335&viewfull=1#post377335) which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).
I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...

I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!

And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

Ivan
19-09-11, 02:04
G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village

Are you trying to say that one haplogroup raped women of all other y hap. from caucasus. Is this your explanation why there are so much of them there.

Alan
19-09-11, 03:01
Sample Size = 114
E* - 11.4% (13)
C* - 1.8% (2)
K* - 9.6% (11)
R2a - 5.3% (7)
P* - 5.3% (6)
R1* - 6.1% (7)
R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
F* - 10.5% (12)
G* - 2.6% (3)
J2 - 10.5% (12)
I* - 20.2% (23)

Here's what Maciamo reported:

I - 20% (Check)
R1a - 16% (Check)
R1b - 6% (I'm guessing this is based on R1*)
G - 2.5% (Check)
J2 - 10.5% (Check)
J1 - 9.5% (Based on what?)
E - 11.5%
T - 5% (Based on what?)
L - 4.5% (Based on what?)
Q - 5% (I'm guessing this is based on P*?)
N - 0% (No comment)
Others - 9% (This seems mostly R2a)

The bold ones are questionable because it looks like this is what he did:

F* : 10.5% --> J1 : 9.5%
While J1 is indeed under F, among some of the other non reported lineages that also exist is haplogroup H for example, why do we assume 9.5% is J1? What is this assumption based on?

K* : 9.6% --> T : 5%
K* : 9.6% --> L : 4.5%
How did he figure out that these are the numbers for L and T? Yes, both lineages do fall under K*, but why assume with the numbers when we don't know?

R2a : 8% --> Other : 9%
Why add the extra percentage? Assumption again? seems like he broke down F between this and J1, why? What's the reason behind that?

actually if we take Zazaki and Kurmanji_T together we get 23/114 this is ~20% I Maciamo is right in that point.

The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.

Alan
19-09-11, 03:17
I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...

I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!

And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 03:29
The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.

But this is based on a maybe, not legit, when reporting frequencies one needs to be 100% on the spot, Maciamo took:

F* - 10.5%
K* - 9.6%

And turned it to:

J1 - 9.5%
L - 4.5%
T - 5%
Other - 1% (The other 8% is R2a)

The assumption makes this a flaw imo, if the data is not there, you should not guess randomly.

Goga
19-09-11, 03:38
If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.
No, I think Proto-Iranians were West Asian! According to me they were J2, J1, G2 & R1b (like modern Georgians) mixed with R1a, R2a & J2 from the Iranian Plateau - Central Asia and later mixed with R1a, I & J2 folks from North Caucasus.

Don't underestimate J2 in the formation of proto-Indo-Europeans and proto-Iranics!


Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+answ ers+to+one+question&pbx=1&oq=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+ans wers+to+one+question&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2075l2075l0l2496l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595


Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595

Goga
19-09-11, 04:24
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6686/15797570.jpg
http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1867/52191874.jpg
http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7712/29553054.jpg
http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&pbx=1&oq=Y-haplogroups+of+carriers+of+the+Aryan+language&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1326l1326l0l1669l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

Goga
19-09-11, 04:30
ARYANS = R1a1a + J2


"In conclusion: We can now say that based on one of the three hypotheses (Kurgan, Anatolian and «Out of India theory») the haplogroup of Aryans formally claim R1a1a and J2"

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=nl&safe=off&site=&source=hp&q=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+answ ers+to+one+question&pbx=1&oq=Where+in+Indiadid+the+Aryans+arrive%3FThree+ans wers+to+one+question&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2075l2075l0l2496l1l1l0l0l0l0l31l31l1l1l0&fp=1&biw=1298&bih=595&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&cad=b

Cobol19
19-09-11, 04:49
ARYANS = R1a1a + J2

Do you agree with this paper and those maps?

Goga
19-09-11, 05:01
Do you agree with this paper and those maps?There're 2 papers.
1st: Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question
2nd: Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language

Not 100%. I believe Mitanni were proto-Aryans from West Asian who migrated into Central Asia. But I think there was a back migration into Kurdistan again.

I believe in this map:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9246/migrations01.jpg

Cobol19
19-09-11, 05:19
There're 2 papers.
1st: Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question
2nd: Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language

Not 100%. I believe Mitanni were proto-Aryans from West Asian who migrated into Central Asia. But I think there was a back migration into Kurdistan again.

I believe in this map:

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9246/migrations01.jpg

So you're basically choosing and picking what you want to believe, not very ethical, but whatever.

Ivan
19-09-11, 13:04
And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

Could you please tell me, I would like to know.

rms2
19-09-11, 13:44
Thank you, Bodin, for your reply in post #310.

Alan
19-09-11, 14:32
Guys please calm down.

@Goga I can understand why you behave like this when it comes to Assyrian,Armenians. I also had the luck to get in conversation with some of them. But not all people are the same. If I am not wrong Cobol19 is one of the other sort of Assyrians.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 14:53
Guys please calm down.

@Goga I can understand why you behave like this when it comes to Assyrian,Armenians. I also had the luck to get in conversation with some of them. But not all people are the same. If I am not wrong Cobol19 is one of the other sort of Assyrians.

Well Alan, some of your experiences with some Assyrians sums up how some of my experiences with some Kurds have been, it's a two way street my friend, on the other hand you along with the few other Kurds (Like a few personal friends of mine and the ones I met through 23andMe for example) I have respect for because the discussion has nothing to do with flame wars and you actually read and realize that what I write does not degrade Kurds in any way, if anything I support Kurdish DNA advancement.

Goga get's too paranoid for no reason and likes to degrade Assyrians and Armenians in a very stupid way, he does not get my respect because he's an unethical person that is only interested in spreading personal agenda and putting unnecessary fuel on fire.

Ivan
19-09-11, 15:06
Guys please calm down.

I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.

I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.

I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 15:08
I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.

I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.

I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.

I hate to disappoint you, but there's a strong chance that we all have some sort of rapist in our paternal lineage, you're forgetting that human history is very deep and goes back beyond 50,000 years, I would be surprised if there was no rapist in there somewhere.

Ivan
19-09-11, 15:27
I hate to disappoint you, but there's a strong chance that we all have some sort of rapist in our paternal lineage, you're forgetting that human history is very deep and goes back beyond 50,000 years, I would be surprised if there was no rapist in there somewhere.
I am not disappointed when I learn something new. What you said is true for the civilisation as a whole, but I wanted to know more about this theory that G haplogroup singled out and primarily expanded in this manner, at least my haplogroup relatives from Caucasus. This I hope I misread. Nevertheless if it is true I would be happy to know.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 15:38
I am not disappointed when I learn something new. What you said is true for the civilisation as a whole, but I wanted to know more about this theory that G haplogroup singled out and primarily expanded in this manner, at least my haplogroup relatives from Caucasus. This I hope I misread. Nevertheless if it is true I would be happy to know.

You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.

Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.

Ivan
19-09-11, 15:57
You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.

Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.

I am just interested to know, not worried.

BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read here.

Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.

Ivan
19-09-11, 16:04
You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.

Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.

I am just interested to know, not worried.

BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read.

Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.

Cobol19
19-09-11, 16:08
I am just interested to know, not worried.

BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read here.

Abducting women does not result in rape lineages, you're actually correct, it was very common for tribal groups in those regions (Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran) to abduct young beautiful women, but when they abducted them, they usually took them back to their tribal lands and kept them as wives, they did not rape them and throw them away, if they did rape a woman in the intend of not keeping her as a wife they usually killed her after, the reason for that is because rape could result to a pregnancy, and tribal pride was way too much to throw away a seed in case it was potentially a boy which is very important in such tribal cultures, so it was either rape and kill, or abduct and keep as a wife, the actual rapes that you're talking about were more common in army soldiers from foreign lands rather than surrounding tribal groups.


Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.

I've seen it somewhere, I'll try to find it, though I also get a lot of my info on this lineage from one of the FTDNA G project administrators, he's a G1* like yourself.

Bodin
20-09-11, 07:00
What's my qualifications? What are Eupedia's qualifications? Listen, I don't take any percentages or maps seriously unless they have sources, and until Maciamo provides where he got his sources from, the numbers and maps on this website are irrelevant.



It is South-Central Asia, Central Asia is pretty much north of this area (Kazakhstan, Southern Russia, etc), and parts of Pakistan belongs to this region (North Pakistan and anything west of the Indus).



I think they were more connected with the Scythians than with the Medes (Their language is the evidence for it), and the lineage that was likely passed down was R1a1a (Based on Scythian ancient DNA), not I2a1b.
Everybody say Tajikistan , Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan, Afganistan and South Kazahstan are in central Asia , just you say they are not, but I suposse there is no way they are right
There is realy small diference betwen east and west Iranic languagues . You seem to know which languague Sarmathians spocked , how? Herodotus clearly say they speacked spoiled Scythian - there was some diference , that even Greek would spot , Greek that isnt speacked any of these languagues . Serbians spoke Slavic languague but still has only about 5% of Slavic genes

Bodin
20-09-11, 07:35
Are you trying to say that one haplogroup raped women of all other y hap. from caucasus. Is this your explanation why there are so much of them there.
No I didnt try to say that - there was lot more G in Caucasus to begin with , and then group of Sarmathians comed carrying I2a1b , they mixed with G population that lived on they lands - now they are I2a1b and G , and they make war with neighbours that dont have any i2a1b , and realy strong G , and they rape eachothers womans - that would lead to increase of G among first population and only traces of i in second population

Bodin
20-09-11, 07:40
But this is based on a maybe, not legit, when reporting frequencies one needs to be 100% on the spot, Maciamo took:

F* - 10.5%
K* - 9.6%

And turned it to:

J1 - 9.5%
L - 4.5%
T - 5%
Other - 1% (The other 8% is R2a)

The assumption makes this a flaw imo, if the data is not there, you should not guess randomly.
But we are hier to develope theories , and to take best guesses . He probably had his reasons to put most of F* in to J1 - even if all of that is not J1 it is still bether than to call it F* ( which is realy rear )

Bodin
20-09-11, 07:49
You guys post too fast for me to keep up... but I will say that these questions of Bodin's are critical to understanding I2a-Din, and that they're pretty much unanswerable by genetics alone at the moment. That is:

1) Must have been 2000 years ago +/- 1000 years given the STR diversity. But who brought it is another question. We know that its diversity is higher to the North, and we are fairly sure that there is no ancient Western European I2a-Din. But we don't know if its diversity is even higher in the East.
2) Who knows? We have zero data on STR diversity of I2a-Din in Kurdistan. And yet the Sarmatian theory relies a lot on having STR diversity data of I2a-Din in the East. Unfortunately Bodin's frequency-based conjecture could be way off due to genetic drift even if he has all his numbers right. We need multiple 37+ marker samples of Eastern I2a-Din. We don't have this.

Cobol19 is right that we should doubt the extent of our knowledge about I2a-Din in the East. The better default assumption, based on all that we know about Haplogroup I in general (that the center of diversity of every clade within it is in Europe) is that it is a relatively recent migrant from Europe.

BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds%28Kurdish-PeoPle%29-are-Europeans&p=377335&viewfull=1#post377335) which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).
Main question still stays how did it get from Balkans to Kurdistan ? All of Turkic I2a1b has to be from setlling of Balkanians after XIV century AD( up to today - muslims from Sandzak go to work in Turkey , and stay there) - that settling is historicaly confirmed , and they have to had significant I2a1b , and today Turks have realy small % of I2a1 - so certainly most of it and probably all is there only since XIV century AD .

Bodin
20-09-11, 07:53
Thank you, Bodin, for your reply in post #310.
Youre wellcomed

Bodin
20-09-11, 08:03
I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.

I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.

I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.
It was part of spoils of war to rape conquered womans ( and it still is - look Russians in Germany during WWII , Americans in Afganistan and Iraq , Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs in war in former Yugoslavia , Foreign legion in Africa ,... ) . So everybodie of us had lots of ancestors that are rapist , killers ( killers left descendants , killed ones are not ) , robers ,...

Bodin
20-09-11, 08:14
Abducting women does not result in rape lineages, you're actually correct, it was very common for tribal groups in those regions (Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran) to abduct young beautiful women, but when they abducted them, they usually took them back to their tribal lands and kept them as wives, they did not rape them and throw them away, if they did rape a woman in the intend of not keeping her as a wife they usually killed her after, the reason for that is because rape could result to a pregnancy, and tribal pride was way too much to throw away a seed in case it was potentially a boy which is very important in such tribal cultures, so it was either rape and kill, or abduct and keep as a wife, the actual rapes that you're talking about were more common in army soldiers from foreign lands rather than surrounding tribal groups.



I've seen it somewhere, I'll try to find it, though I also get a lot of my info on this lineage from one of the FTDNA G project administrators, he's a G1* like yourself.
Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ? Actualy there is no reason to kill girl , he would left her as a shame for her family - making enemies to breed his childs .
Other thing was more common , to family kill girl , or girl kill herself , or she kill a child . But not only girls were raped , but also maried womans , and some times it was hard to determine whose child it is - from rapist or from husband

Cobol19
20-09-11, 12:19
Everybody say Tajikistan , Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan, Afganistan and South Kazahstan are in central Asia , just you say they are not, but I suposse there is no way they are right
There is realy small diference betwen east and west Iranic languagues . You seem to know which languague Sarmathians spocked , how? Herodotus clearly say they speacked spoiled Scythian - there was some diference , that even Greek would spot , Greek that isnt speacked any of these languagues . Serbians spoke Slavic languague but still has only about 5% of Slavic genes

You're forgetting that Herodotus also mentioned that the Sarmatians were actually the result of Scythian men marrying Amazonian women:

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/gruffini/cl115/Herodotus%204.110-117.htm

While the above may be some sort of ancient legend, read the important part:


"The language of the Sauromatae is Scythian, but not spoken in its ancient purity"This leads me to believe that they were the result of Scythians mixing with local native populations of the Eurasian steppes, their off-spring today exists in the form of Ossetian (Which is a language off-spring mostly since they seriously lack R1a1a).


But we are hier to develope theories , and to take best guesses . He probably had his reasons to put most of F* in to J1 - even if all of that is not J1 it is still bether than to call it F* ( which is realy rear )

Developing theories is absurd when there's actual data available, either you re-word the table frequency to "This is what I think", or stop promoting it as a fact, do you understand now? I may argue and say, why is it 9.5% J1? Maybe it's 5%, maybe it's 2%, the point is you don't report numbers because you think it's right, either it's right or it's not, that's how the ethical academic way works, and that frequency table is not academic so please stop referring to it in this discussion until Maciamo fixes these things, because as of now, the table is not legit.


Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ?

Abducting and forcing a girl is indeed still rape, but this results in an off-spring that will carry a different mtDNA, not different Y-DNA, because the girl's line is being introduced to the tribe, not the father's Y-DNA.


Actualy there is no reason to kill girl , he would left her as a shame for her family - making enemies to breed his childs .

Other thing was more common , to family kill girl , or girl kill herself , or she kill a child . But not only girls were raped , but also maried womans , and some times it was hard to determine whose child it is - from rapist or from husbandI'm not here to tell you whether there's a reason or not, I'm telling you this is what happened in these areas, apperantly you're not familiar of how important it is to pass your seed down in the tribal sense in these regions, it's extremely important because potentially it could be a boy, tribal people loved breeding boys because they make the tribe stronger, raping random women and leaving her alive could result in a birth of a future boy, tribal people avoided that for this very reason unless they killed the girl after the rape.

Rape of this kind was only common when an army from foreign lands came through, that's because they were away from their women and at war with nothing to lose, rapes by them were not an issue, so if any rape off-spring took place, it was likely from this interaction.

Ivan
20-09-11, 13:43
It was part of spoils of war to rape conquered womans ( and it still is - look Russians in Germany during WWII , Americans in Afganistan and Iraq , Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs in war in former Yugoslavia , Foreign legion in Africa ,... ) . So everybodie of us had lots of ancestors that are rapist , killers ( killers left descendants , killed ones are not ) , robers ,...



I thought you singled out Haplogroup G to be reproducing itself mostly by rape, and connected one particular group to a custom of raping all the women after killing male population above all other groups. I then misread that.

Though I would not blame any of them for taking the woman with them as a spoil of war and not killing them on the spot, at least the pretty ones were spared.

Still not sure if I would call it rape in the first place. For your theory to work, where rape as you call it led to increase of numbers, I would rather call it the spoil of war that ultimately became female population of the victors.

Ivan
20-09-11, 15:08
Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ?

As a psychological term, from the standpoint of the victim, it is an actual rape, but rape as a mean of war is what you were talking about.

This rape as a mean of war, is much more connected with invading armies who stayed on the spot, unlike this mountain skirmishes with a hit and run tactics; thus producing or not, mostly single offspring that could be male, from those women that are not slain afterwards, and also who decided to keep the babies which in mountain cultures was not so common, and who eventually could be living in a strong atmosphere of hate towards his biological father.

The problem is in the word rape, as a mean of significant increase of ones group numbers, which is ultimately inferior to number of children from women who were later accepted in the new culture, thus capable of producing significantly more children in an atmosphere controlled by society in which the children are born to.

Bodin
20-09-11, 23:58
You're forgetting that Herodotus also mentioned that the Sarmatians were actually the result of Scythian men marrying Amazonian women:

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/gruffini/cl115/Herodotus%204.110-117.htm

While the above may be some sort of ancient legend, read the important part:

This leads me to believe that they were the result of Scythians mixing with local native populations of the Eurasian steppes, their off-spring today exists in the form of Ossetian (Which is a language off-spring mostly since they seriously lack R1a1a).



Developing theories is absurd when there's actual data available, either you re-word the table frequency to "This is what I think", or stop promoting it as a fact, do you understand now? I may argue and say, why is it 9.5% J1? Maybe it's 5%, maybe it's 2%, the point is you don't report numbers because you think it's right, either it's right or it's not, that's how the ethical academic way works, and that frequency table is not academic so please stop referring to it in this discussion until Maciamo fixes these things, because as of now, the table is not legit.



Abducting and forcing a girl is indeed still rape, but this results in an off-spring that will carry a different mtDNA, not different Y-DNA, because the girl's line is being introduced to the tribe, not the father's Y-DNA.

I'm not here to tell you whether there's a reason or not, I'm telling you this is what happened in these areas, apperantly you're not familiar of how important it is to pass your seed down in the tribal sense in these regions, it's extremely important because potentially it could be a boy, tribal people loved breeding boys because they make the tribe stronger, raping random women and leaving her alive could result in a birth of a future boy, tribal people avoided that for this very reason unless they killed the girl after the rape.

Rape of this kind was only common when an army from foreign lands came through, that's because they were away from their women and at war with nothing to lose, rapes by them were not an issue, so if any rape off-spring took place, it was likely from this interaction.
Prove Amazons egzisted
There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague .
Egzactly there is almoust no R1a1 in Ossetians - that is another prove Sarmathian were not R1a1 , Ossetians even call themselves Iron and languague Iraetae - same as Medeans call themselves Aryan
Theories are the ways you read the data
I already said it was way to humiliate family of girl and her tribe/ nation - they are forced to breed child of rapist . It was common practice in both central Asia and Caucasus , especialy Mongolians ( Gengis Khan could be child from such raping )

Bodin
21-09-11, 00:00
I thought you singled out Haplogroup G to be reproducing itself mostly by rape, and connected one particular group to a custom of raping all the women after killing male population above all other groups. I then misread that.

Though I would not blame any of them for taking the woman with them as a spoil of war and not killing them on the spot, at least the pretty ones were spared.

Still not sure if I would call it rape in the first place. For your theory to work, where rape as you call it led to increase of numbers, I would rather call it the spoil of war that ultimately became female population of the victors.
No I havent singled out any haplogroup , G was just more numerous in aeria , and spreaded more that way - mathematical progresion
Whell you could call it spoil of war , but thats still rape , no diferent than any other

Cobol19
21-09-11, 00:17
Prove Amazons egzisted

Amazons were simply warrior women and they existed based on history books, in fact, female warriors were found in Scythian grave sites, read this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rOG5VcYxhiEC


There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague .The difference between east and west is not so small, heck, even differences between dialects within the same language can be quite large, let alone different languages from different branches?

I actually have a Kurdish friend who speaks the Kurmanji Kurdish dialect, we went to a shawerma place where the owner spoke the Sorani Kurdish dialect, I asked my friend to communicate with him in Kurdish, but he said he couldn't because they don't understand one another, so if two people who speak the same language cannot communicate due to different dialects, you really think two total different languages are gonna be understandable? Unless both sides know a common language, not a chance.


Egzactly there is almoust no R1a1 in Ossetians - that is another prove Sarmathian were not R1a1 , Ossetians even call themselves Iron and languague Iraetae - same as Medeans call themselves AryanSpeaking a language does not mean you're supposed to carry the genes of the people that brought the language, in Nigeria they speak English, but clearly they don't carry English genes, likewise in Cameroon they speak French, but once again they do not carry French genes, get it?


Theories are the ways you read the data
I already said it was way to humiliate family of girl and her tribe/ nation - they are forced to breed child of rapist . It was common practice in both central Asia and Caucasus , especialy Mongolians ( Gengis Khan could be child from such raping )I don't care about Genghis Khan or Central Asia, I'm talking about Anatolia/Iran/Caucasus/Mesopotamia, etc, tribal groups did not rape, army did, of course I would not expect you to know this since you're not from this area nor do you know anything about it.

Ivan
21-09-11, 00:33
Whell you could call it spoil of war , but thats still rape , no diferent than any other

If you would like to moralize now, I agree with you they were very bad boys, but if this was abduction for the purpose of marrying I forgive them. You can call them rapists if you will.

Rape as a mean of expanding group numbers makes no sense. That was the idea of my posts.

You said probably their custom of raping an entire village, helped them in expanding their numbers.
Where did you find such stuff anyway. Abducting women and marrying them is the only thing I have heard about in those areas to be known as a custom. If you have some other info please share it.

Bodin
21-09-11, 00:33
Amazons were simply warrior women and they existed based on history books, in fact, female warriors were found in Scythian grave sites, read this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rOG5VcYxhiEC

The difference between east and west is not so small, heck, even differences between dialects within the same language can be quite large, let alone different languages from different branches?

I actually have a Kurdish friend who speaks the Kurmanji Kurdish dialect, we went to a shawerma place where the owner spoke the Sorani Kurdish dialect, I asked my friend to communicate with him in Kurdish, but he said he couldn't because they don't understand one another, so if two people who speak the same language cannot communicate due to different dialects, you really think two total different languages are gonna be understandable? Unless both sides know a common language, not a chance.

Speaking a language does not mean you're supposed to carry the genes of the people that brought the language, in Nigeria they speak English, but clearly they don't carry English genes, likewise in Cameroon they speak French, but once again they do not carry French genes, get it?

I don't care about Genghis Khan or Central Asia, I'm talking about Anatolia/Iran/Caucasus/Mesopotamia, etc, tribal groups did not rape, army did, of course I would not expect you to know this since you're not from this area nor do you know anything about it.
No Amazons were nation from Greek miths , they exsistence is not scientificaly proved
I wasnt speacking about Kurdish languague today I was speacking about west and east Iranian languague groups at that time
I know Serbs speack Slavic having only 5% of Slavic genes , there was some spreading of Sarmathian languague( mainly on HG G population) , but some of Sarmathians Alans use to live on Caucasus during Middle Ages - Alania
In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes

Ivan
21-09-11, 00:50
In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes

Can you link me to some. I would really like to see it.

Cobol19
21-09-11, 00:57
No Amazons were nation from Greek miths , they exsistence is not scientificaly proved
I wasnt speacking about Kurdish languague today I was speacking about west and east Iranian languague groups at that time
I know Serbs speack Slavic having only 5% of Slavic genes , there was some spreading of Sarmathian languague( mainly on HG G population) , but some of Sarmathians Alans use to live on Caucasus during Middle Ages - Alania
In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes

Bodin, you seem to lack the knowledge in the subject of genetics, it's not called rape, it's called genetic drift, when people within the tribe intermarry one another, one lineage or two will likely be dominant, this is seen in other tribal people too, not just in the Caucasus.

As for the Amazons, I'm not talking about the Greek myths, I'm talking about the actual Scythian women warriors that existed, the term Amazon comes from the Iranian language which meant warriors.

Goga
21-09-11, 04:02
Prove Amazons egzisted
There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague .
Median is northwestern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

Scythian is eastern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages

Goga
21-09-11, 18:49
Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!

The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.

So I think that it is true that Sarmatians are not a fiction and that Serbs are Sarmatians! I think that Serbs together with the Croats are actually the real (purest) Sarmantians, and othern East European nations are partly Sarmatians, partly Slavic, partly Greek etc.. Like Bulgarians, Macedonians, Slovenians, Romanians, Belarussians and even Hungarians.

I think that Sarmatians and Cimmerians were almost the same people and shared the same origin! Because they came in the historical accounts almost at the same time.

sparkey
21-09-11, 19:45
Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!

The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.

Come now, that doesn't follow. Russian haplogroup N clearly has its highest frequencies in Northern Russia, and Russian I2a-Din has its highest frequencies in Southern Russia. Even if we don't think of I2a-Din levels in the Balkans as a case of genetic drift (which it almost certainly is), then at least we would expect the Slavs who came to the Balkans to have been from the Southern area of Slavic extent. That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.

Goga
21-09-11, 19:56
That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.
Ok, but there's 0% of N in Croatia and only 2% of N in Serbia. If Slavic tribes from Russian moved into the Balkans I would expect much more N, around 10% or something.

(Slavic) N is just very rare in the Balkans. And there's also not so much R1a...

Alan
21-09-11, 20:04
Median is northwestern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

Scythian is eastern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages

Now for the x time there is nothing we could connect to Median Language. The only Reason we know it existed are Persian records where some Median words are listed, surprisingly those words are very similar to Avesta (it is classified as Northeast Iranic). But there are zero sentence samples of it. No one really knows what kind of language Median was. Such Maps are based on the assumings of linguists. NorthWest-East division is based on very small factors which can change in time. Best example are the Parthians. Originally a Sycthian folk now classified as Northwest Iranic. How is that possible? And Wikipedia is the least source I would use.

Goga
21-09-11, 20:14
Best example are the Parthians. Originally a Sycthian folk now classified as Northwest Iranic. How is that possible?Very simple. The Avesta (Zoroastrian sacred texts) was written in a language very close to what the Parthians used.
The closests modernday Iranic language to Avestan language is the northwern Kurdish and I mean the Gorani-Zaza dialects. At the time when Parthians migrated from Central Asia into West Asia this language was already used by the Iranic tribes in West Iran (under the Caspian Sea).

sparkey
21-09-11, 20:17
Ok, but there's 0% of N in Croatia and only 2% of N in Serbia. If Slavic tribes from Russian moved into the Balkans I would expect much more N, around 10% or something.

And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.


(Slavic) N is just very rare in the Balkans. And there's also not so much R1a...

Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?

Goga
21-09-11, 20:24
And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.Ok.


Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?
I think something but not a lot. It's possible that Sarmatians were 'native' Europeans and not Slavic from northwest Russia or Iranic from the steppes.

Benkimim
21-09-11, 21:08
What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

sparkey
21-09-11, 21:22
What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

Benkimim
21-09-11, 21:42
Thanks dude

Goga
21-09-11, 22:05
The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.Maybe also with some E1b1b?

What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...

sparkey
21-09-11, 22:14
Maybe also with some E1b1b?

Yes, and probably also some T and some others. Q is a question mark to me, when did it get to Ukraine, I wonder?


What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...

Next we'll both be proven wrong and a dozen new theories will arise. :laughing:

Cobol19
21-09-11, 23:09
The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMjR3ssG&key=0AjnH-bSBYrYTdHV0WWR1ZF80anFmbGh0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

razor
21-09-11, 23:34
I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*,

That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?

Goga
21-09-11, 23:37
My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.
Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.

I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.

But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.

Cobol19
21-09-11, 23:46
That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?

I don't have access to the paper, but here's the following study:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/

The study was based on Kurgan skeletons from the second millennium BC all the way to the fourth century AD (Which the Scythians fall between the time-line and very well roaming the steppes).

Cobol19
21-09-11, 23:55
Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.

I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.

But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.

Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.

Note, the Assyrians hardly have any R1a1a (Like 2% or 3%), so they're insignificant to the Z93 story.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:15
Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet.

But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between all West Iranic peoples, Iranic folks in the Caucasus and native Caucasians.

So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for example. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.

sparkey
22-09-11, 00:16
I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMjR3ssG&key=0AjnH-bSBYrYTdHV0WWR1ZF80anFmbGh0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:23
Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet.

But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between West Iranic peoples and the Caucasus.

So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for exampel. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.

I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:25
I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.

Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?

razor
22-09-11, 00:27
Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:31
Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).

Maybe, I'm not aware of any ancient DNA studies in Eastern Europe if that was the desirable request, these 26 samples were found in South Siberia, but according to the study, the specimen were European looking and had light features.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:32
I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:37
Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.
They're like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a commonIranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well asa genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the NorthCaucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into thecircumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:39
I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.
Don't you believe this study?

sparkey
22-09-11, 00:42
Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?

Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:42
Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

Taranis
22-09-11, 00:44
I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:47
Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.
No, they're closer to West Iranians than to neighbouring Caucasians! So these folks ARE Iranic/Aryan, like their language!

from "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians"

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf (http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf)

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:48
Don't you believe this study?

I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:


The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other.

Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:51
Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

In terms of Y-DNA, I agree, but that begs the question on what the Scythians were, I think by the time the Greeks started recording their history there was no such thing as Scythian ethnicity, they were probably a bunch of different groups and tribes from different ethnic backgrounds under one umbrella.

Goga
22-09-11, 00:52
Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same Aryan origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks from the Caucasus!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Cobol19
22-09-11, 00:56
I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks fro the Caucasus!

I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.

Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.

Goga
22-09-11, 01:00
Have you read the academic studies I posted? All these studies say that Aryan speaking Kurds, Ossetians & West Persians are very closely related to each other first and than to the folks in the Caucasus!

This are all FACTS!

mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!


I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG2004.pdf


Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf


Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

Cobol19
22-09-11, 01:14
Goga, technically speaking, European mtDNA is actually "West Asian" and this has nothing to do with Aryans, you do realize that these are lineages that existed way long before there was such thing as Proto-Indo-Europeans right? Let alone Aryans?

My mtDNA for example is T1, this same lineage is common among Germanic groups (Dutch specially) and apperantly, it's connected to the Vikings, does that make me a Viking too? No, the reality is this same lineage is connected to the people who migrated from Anatolia to Europe during the Neolithic times and spread agriculture, my main point is you have to expand your mind, not stick everything with Aryans.

I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.

Goga
22-09-11, 01:23
I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.
First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans!

They also do share the same origin and have almost the same DNA. And are also closely connected to the Caucasus.

So what? Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much 'European' hg. I.
Kurds have even higher hg. I* percentage (MORE) than the most native folks in Europe do, more than folks in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia, Switzerland, Wales, Portugal etc. etc.

Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 01:28
First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans!
They also do share same the same origin

So what Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much European hg. I. Even more than the most native folks in Europe, moren than in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia etc. etc.

Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.

Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

Goga
22-09-11, 01:34
Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.
The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much West Asian DNA in them!

West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.

And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 01:47
The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much West Asian DNA in them!

West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.

And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.

Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.

Goga
22-09-11, 01:59
Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.What Dienekes is doing is not really science.

I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!

I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!

But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..




mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!

I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG2004.pdf


Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf


Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.":

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

razor
22-09-11, 02:05
I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist (:=)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".

Cobol19
22-09-11, 02:20
What Dienekes is doing is not really science.

I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!

I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!

But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..

If what Dienekes was doing is not scientific, it would not be praised by actual professional geneticists:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

I think the issue here is that you're not familiar with genetics that much, read up on deep ancestry and autosomal DNA to know the difference, don't judge things without proper knowledge of them.

Bodin
22-09-11, 04:58
Can you link me to some. I would really like to see it.
Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:06
Bodin, you seem to lack the knowledge in the subject of genetics, it's not called rape, it's called genetic drift, when people within the tribe intermarry one another, one lineage or two will likely be dominant, this is seen in other tribal people too, not just in the Caucasus.

As for the Amazons, I'm not talking about the Greek myths, I'm talking about the actual Scythian women warriors that existed, the term Amazon comes from the Iranian language which meant warriors.
What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics
What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:12
Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!

The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.

So I think that it is true that Sarmatians are not a fiction and that Serbs are Sarmatians! I think that Serbs together with the Croats are actually the real (purest) Sarmantians, and othern East European nations are partly Sarmatians, partly Slavic, partly Greek etc.. Like Bulgarians, Macedonians, Slovenians, Romanians, Belarussians and even Hungarians.

I think that Sarmatians and Cimmerians were almost the same people and shared the same origin! Because they came in the historical accounts almost at the same time.
That is what I trying to prove . Aldo Serbs and Croats also has nonSarmathian lineages - Serbs more Balkanic ( E1b1b and J ) , and Croats more Slavic ( R1a )

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:16
Come now, that doesn't follow. Russian haplogroup N clearly has its highest frequencies in Northern Russia, and Russian I2a-Din has its highest frequencies in Southern Russia. Even if we don't think of I2a-Din levels in the Balkans as a case of genetic drift (which it almost certainly is), then at least we would expect the Slavs who came to the Balkans to have been from the Southern area of Slavic extent. That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.
Yes N is from Finns and I2a1b is from Sarmathians , again there is no archeological evidence of significant Slavic settlement on Balkans , again Slavic R1a is also strongest on south of Russia - where is it on Balkans ? - only 5% in serbians

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:23
And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.



Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?
Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:26
What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?
Scythians were definetly R1a ( over 90% of excavated graves) , they also could have N and Q
I believe Sarmathians were I2a1b , some others believe it was R1a , and I dont undertand why

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:42
I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMjR3ssG&key=0AjnH-bSBYrYTdHV0WWR1ZF80anFmbGh0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.
No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) . Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).
Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by Mongols

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:54
Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.
Veneti are most probably ancestors of Balts - and there is very low I2a1b in them , Lietuva 1% and Lithuania 6% ( they have legend about Sarmathian origin of they nobility )

Bodin
22-09-11, 05:58
I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:



Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/
But wat is meaning of : " North Ossetians are more simillar to North Caucasus populations and south ... to south... " - they are same nation so only answer is that male lineages were very much replaced

Bodin
22-09-11, 06:07
I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.

Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.
And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth

Bodin
22-09-11, 06:15
Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.
Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory

Bodin
22-09-11, 06:19
My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist (:=)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".
No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .

Cobol19
22-09-11, 12:31
What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics
What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow

Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.



No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) .

Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find "Ancient DNA" for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.


Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).Soon we'll find out, don't worry.


Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by MongolsThe C was carried among the Andronovo culture (Kurgan culture / Proto-Indo-Iranians):

5180


Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory

I don't even understand this, the English is very bad.


And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth

What does I2a1b have to do with Medes crushing the Assyrians? This is stupid and has nothing to do with anything, well, Medes and Chaldeans crushed the Assyrians, the Persians crushed the Medes and Chaldeans, the Macedonians/Greeks crushed the Persians, etc, we can go on and on, but unless you have evidence that I2a1b existed among ancient Iranians, your arguments are useless and you have no point, and when I say evidence, I mean "Ancient DNA" studies, is there any ancient DNA of I2a1b found among ancient Iranians? If not, please stop repeating yourself.

Ivan
22-09-11, 15:06
Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

For the part I am concerned, and that is your subsequent use of the word rape, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians.

That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed. Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.

Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.

Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen.

Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange but the real changes happen in time of peace, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain.

What I was saying was that you do not need rape and wars to explain your theory. There is genetic drift that by itself is enough to explain the high G.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 15:43
Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?

razor
22-09-11, 16:09
No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .

Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).

Ivan
22-09-11, 16:20
##########

Goga
22-09-11, 18:55
They could be a Georgian tribe in terms of genes, also their geographic location is speaking in favor of that, and the language and culture could be adopted. They lived on south Caucasian slopes in Georgia, but still, it was high in mountains, where they were much more connected to North Ossetians and their culture.

This brings to my mind an unfortunate dispute between Georgia an North Ossetia. If this research is true and if I am not mistaking, they both have something to claim.

Politicians will ultimately decide what is better suited for statehood, whether cultural or ethnic affiliation.

I sincerely hope they will find some common ground soon in the interest of Caucasus people.No, you're making a mistake. Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.

There's only 750,000 Ossetians, but at least 40,000,000 Kurds.

This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.


And Georgia has some disputes with South Ossetia...

Cobol19
22-09-11, 19:02
No, you're making a mistake. Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.

This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.

Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.

Goga
22-09-11, 19:03
Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.
Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 19:11
Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.

When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.

Goga
22-09-11, 19:18
When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.True, and I do absolutely agree with you.

But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and that they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their ancient Iranic genes...

Alan
22-09-11, 19:20
Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.

You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 19:21
Ture, and I do agree with.

But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and not they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their genes...

But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.

The only data available autosomally is on Iranians (Persians, Azeri, Luri, etc) and Kurds, and they are indeed closest to one another, I'll see if I can find anything on the Ossetians online.

Cobol19
22-09-11, 19:26
You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran.

Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).


Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar structure based on their part Iranic heritage but their is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian as well North European in compare tol Assyrians. The difference between however between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean among in the I. Kurds than Iranians, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.

Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.

Goga
22-09-11, 19:39
But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.No, once again. Their mtDNA is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Cobol19
22-09-11, 19:47
No, once again. Their mtDNA is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga, we already had gone through this already, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not tell the whole story, you can only compare closeness of populations by autosomal DNA, read this:

http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html

Alan
22-09-11, 19:48
Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).



You are again twisting things up a bit even though this time I know you know better. You know as much as me that this actual Kurd from Turkey has his origin in North West Iran and this very well transmited orally. The same goes for the other guy who is testing and who isnt a Zaza Kurd at all. Remember what I said the demographics among Kurds are very different from that what people thing and red here on the net. Someone isnt a Zaza just because he is from Dersim. 30% of Dersim is Kurmanji speaking. This is almost every third person. And he also has oral stories being from Iran. Many Alevi Kurds have Oral stories about coming from Northwest Iran. This is not the case with Sunni Kurds and the majority of Anatolian Kurds are sunni.




Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.

ok sorry my fault. However your right that Kurds share more similarities with Iranians as Assyrians or Armenians do.

razor
22-09-11, 19:49
Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))

Goga
22-09-11, 19:51
Even though I know that South Ossetians expected a lot more involvement, Russia actually stalemated this as you call it Georgia-South Ossetia dispute or as would I call it Georgia/America vs South Ossetia/Russia.
Some Ossetians are just a bunch of morons. Actually there're better of with Georgia, than with Russia. I mean South Ossetians had more rights as an separated ethnic group in Georgia than North Ossetians in Russia!

Goga
22-09-11, 19:55
Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!

But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!

I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.

Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...

Cobol19
22-09-11, 20:04
autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!

But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!

I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.

Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...

Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.

EDIT: This should help:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

Ivan
22-09-11, 20:23
##########

Ivan
22-09-11, 20:40
##########

Goga
22-09-11, 22:14
Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.

EDIT: This should help:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.htmlThis is what I'm telling you all the time!

Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians.
But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!

What don't you understand here?

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga
22-09-11, 22:33
"Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples.

Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations.
However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

Goga
22-09-11, 22:38
"Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]."

http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3

Cobol19
22-09-11, 22:39
This is what I'm telling you all the time!

Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians.
But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!

What don't you understand here?

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.

The study says this:


Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups.This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:

Autosomal DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

Y-DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/y_chromo.html

mtDNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/mito_dna.html

X-Chromosome
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/x_chromo.html

Autosomal DNA determines which population is closest to each other, and since there's no Ossetian Autosomal DNA sample available, we can't determine how close they are to other Iranian populations, remember, they live in the Caucasus and do carry Caucasian paternal lineages too, so if I was a betting man I'd say they would be closest to other Caucasian groups in terms of Autosomal DNA since they live in the same area and probably have mixed for a while, but once again we have no evidence for that, so until some are tested, we don't know for sure.


"Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]."

http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3

I fail to see how one would make a connection between ancient groups and modern groups without ancient DNA study, as far as I know, there's no ancient DNA found among the Sarmatians/Alans, and whatever ancient DNA that is found in the steppe area, none of it was haplogroup G.

Goga
22-09-11, 22:46
But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.
Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!

They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?

Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!

I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???

Read this:


"Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples.

Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations.
However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

Cobol19
22-09-11, 23:05
But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.

Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!

A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.

Besides, the study mentions that they're similar maternally to other Iranian populations as in, they carry similar maternal lineages, but keep in mind that there's no such thing as Iranian mtDNA, these lineages are very old and have existed thousands of years ago before civilizations, meaning that many different groups carry them, so just because someone happens to carry a similar lineage that is found among Iranians, it does not mean they're Iranian, a good example of this is haplogroup R2a, 90% of these people live in India, but just because someone carries this lineage, it does not mean they're Indian.


They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?

Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!

I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???

Read this:First of all, I never denied Kurds, Persians, Ossetians, or any other group that speaks an Indo-Iranian language from being Aryan, you're simply just stirring up the pot again, if I said that, point it out for me.

The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.

You talk about language? The Ossetians speak an Eastern Iranian language, this specific language falls under the same tree as Yaghnobi, Pashtun, and Pamiri languages, so once again, you have to expand your mind and look at the bigger picture here.

Goga
22-09-11, 23:19
A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.

The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.I don't have any agenda.

And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
And now you're advocating the opposite thing with the Ossetians?

Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were! What did your ancestors?
But are you saying here that Kurds are not closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?

My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!

Cobol19
22-09-11, 23:33
I don't have any agenda.

By the looks of it, you do.


And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
And now you're advocating the opposite thing on the Ossetians?I did not put any doubt, I said that there not a single study that shows Kurdish I2a, all studies show I*, is it I2a? Perhaps, but it could also be a mixture of I2a, I2b, I2c, and I1, why the need to dismiss the other lineages? Do you have proof? If so, provide it, other than that, stop making stupid accusations and go back read what I wrote, I simply said we don't know what kind of I* was carried, which is the honest truth.


Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were!
But are you saying here that Kurds are not closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?So now those folks are Aryans because of an influence? Go tell that to Brahmin Indians, see how they'll rip you apart, culturally they're just as Aryan, what makes you think they were influenced? Maybe your ancestors were influenced by Aryans? See what I mean? Pure hypocrisy, either you're all proper Aryans, or not, don't pick and choose based on your agenda.


My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!Your mind can't even tell the difference between Autosomal DNA and Y-DNA/mtDNA, let alone calling it an X-ray that detects agenda? :laughing:

Ivan
23-09-11, 00:01
##########

Bodin
23-09-11, 02:23
Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.




Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find "Ancient DNA" for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.

Soon we'll find out, don't worry.

The C was carried among the Andronovo culture (Kurgan culture / Proto-Indo-Iranians):

5180



I don't even understand this, the English is very bad.



What does I2a1b have to do with Medes crushing the Assyrians? This is stupid and has nothing to do with anything, well, Medes and Chaldeans crushed the Assyrians, the Persians crushed the Medes and Chaldeans, the Macedonians/Greeks crushed the Persians, etc, we can go on and on, but unless you have evidence that I2a1b existed among ancient Iranians, your arguments are useless and you have no point, and when I say evidence, I mean "Ancient DNA" studies, is there any ancient DNA of I2a1b found among ancient Iranians? If not, please stop repeating yourself.
Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying
Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1b
Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect you
about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague Iraetae
Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live
Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?

Bodin
23-09-11, 02:46
For the part I am concerned, and that is your subsequent use of the word rape, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians.

That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed. Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.

Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.

Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen.

Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange but the real changes happen in time of peace, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain.

What I was saying was that you do not need rape and wars to explain your theory. There is genetic drift that by itself is enough to explain the high G.
Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century . About mixing in Yugoslavia in peace - yes it was strongest then , but Yugoslavia in that time was not tribal society , in tribal societies it is forbiden for girl to willingly marry man from other nation . There use to be custom to stone such a girls ( present even today in some parts of Kurdistan , Iran and Turkey)
Book about settling of Ossetians:
http://www.nplg.gov.ge/dlibrary/coll/0001/000355/
Ofcourse all of G ( and others) didnt come from rape but some of it is

Cobol19
23-09-11, 02:50
Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying

Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.


Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1bYes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.


Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect youThe Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.


about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague IraetaeThe Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks

And the Haddingjar were Germanic, I don't know where you come up with that word but Haria is not Arya, and I can't find anything online that connects Haddingjar with Aryans, so if you will, provide your sources please.


Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live
Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?You're right, there's no I2a1b in ancient DNA so let's stop talking about it because it's a haplogroup that is not relevant to the subject.

Btw, I said I2a1b is Southeast European, I did not say it was Balkanic, though I did say that it entered Anatolia from the Balkans (A genetic wave from the Balkans), that does not mean it originated there.

Bodin
23-09-11, 02:52
You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?
ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians

Cobol19
23-09-11, 02:54
ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians

Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:01
Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).
Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .They called themselves Yasi , Asi ,Aorsi...
And please I would like to know what Poli means on Scythian , my assumption is that is Scythian word , accepted by Slavs and it means field .
In steppes North of Black sea division of nations on " ones that lives in forest " and " ones that lives in steppes " was common : Goths : Tervingi and Greutungi ; Slavs Drevljani and Poljani ; Scythians : forest and steppes Scythians in Herodothus

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:06
When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.
Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:08
You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.
He twisting things all the time

Cobol19
23-09-11, 03:08
Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry

Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.


He twisting things all the time

Thanks for the useless contribution.

Ivan
23-09-11, 03:17
Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century .

I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.

I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....

And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying.

Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I.

When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.

If I and G were two separate groups who waged wars then today there would still be a secluded group of I that was never incorporated in the same society as G.

BTW, Thanks for the book.

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:23
Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.

The study says this:

This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:

Autosomal DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

Y-DNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/y_chromo.html

mtDNA
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/mito_dna.html

X-Chromosome
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/x_chromo.html

Autosomal DNA determines which population is closest to each other, and since there's no Ossetian Autosomal DNA sample available, we can't determine how close they are to other Iranian populations, remember, they live in the Caucasus and do carry Caucasian paternal lineages too, so if I was a betting man I'd say they would be closest to other Caucasian groups in terms of Autosomal DNA since they live in the same area and probably have mixed for a while, but once again we have no evidence for that, so until some are tested, we don't know for sure.



I fail to see how one would make a connection between ancient groups and modern groups without ancient DNA study, as far as I know, there's no ancient DNA found among the Sarmatians/Alans, and whatever ancient DNA that is found in the steppe area, none of it was haplogroup G.
If there is no proves about autosomal similarity betwen Ossetians and Iranians , but there is conection in mthDNA , why are you trying to chalenge Iranian - Ossetian conection ( based on what )?
I also dont believe Alanians were mostly G , but some of nations that made union could be mostly G . And you persistently repeating which haplogroups are found in steppes - is it resonable to expect lot of Sarmathian DNA in steppes - I dont think so , because they mainly moved west , replaced by Huns and other Turkic tribes since IV century up to XVI century when last Turkic tribe ( Uzbeks ) moved in , and in XIII century Alania was totaly depopulated and destroyed by Mongolians , so why do you expect Sarmathian DNA to be significant in steppes ?You need to read more history books

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:37
Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.

Yes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.

The Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.

The Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks

And the Haddingjar were Germanic, I don't know where you come up with that word but Haria is not Arya, and I can't find anything online that connects Haddingjar with Aryans, so if you will, provide your sources please.

You're right, there's no I2a1b in ancient DNA so let's stop talking about it because it's a haplogroup that is not relevant to the subject.

Btw, I said I2a1b is Southeast European, I did not say it was Balkanic, though I did say that it entered Anatolia from the Balkans (A genetic wave from the Balkans), that does not mean it originated there.
No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .
Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian graves
What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?
Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the Kurdistan

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:42
I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.

I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....

And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying.

Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I.

When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.

If I and G were two separate groups who waged wars then today there would still be a secluded group of I that was never incorporated in the same society as G.

BTW, Thanks for the book.
You are welcomed
We havent understood each other , I didnt claim I and G make war against eachother , but incoming Alans in XIII century with most of I2a1b ( and maybe R1a and Q from mix with Huns) and Caucasians natives with most of G haplogroup . Again I never said G haplogroup is rapist haplogroup . sorry if I ( unwillingly) offended you . Thanks for answer.

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:45
Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.



Thanks for the useless contribution.

You are welcomed to
Autosomal DNA is less certain way to find somebody ancestry than Y and mth DNA and that is the fact

Bodin
23-09-11, 03:48
Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.
Not only Autosomal DNA but also mthDNA ( mor important ) and other Ydna haplogroups , you have to look all of this factors , not only one

Bodin
23-09-11, 04:17
R1a-related lineages occur less frequently here among eastern Slavs, a main reason for the disconnect between the Eastern European plain and the Caucasus. There does, however, appear to be good diversity here, with the presence of R1a*, R1a1-M198*, Note again how the Iranic Ossetians (both North and South) have almost no R1a1 compared to both their NW Caucasian and S Caucasian neighbors, again, suggesting that this may not have been an important Alan or steppe Iranian lineage, at least during the late antique time horizon. The occurrence of R1a1f-M458 may represent Slavic influence in the NW Caucasus.

razor
23-09-11, 04:25
Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .

Here's a prime source for you: the Hou Hanshu Cf. the footnote to their "Alan" text: http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes19.html

It's the previous political formation, Yancai or Yentsai (sometimes confused with the "Antes") which bore the name of "great steppe". I have already stated the meaning of "Alani". It's not "my version", it's standard linguistics. "Alan" is simply the lambdacized pronunciation of "Aryan". Join a good IE linguistic discussion group like [email protected]/com. They have many fine linguists there.

Cobol19
23-09-11, 07:17
No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .

We don't have any I2a1b data on ancient Scythians/Sarmatians, enough with this.


Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian gravesIt does not matter much really, it was only one sample that carried haplogroup C anyways, but it's funny how you're trying to downplay a lineage that was actually found in ancient Kurgan remains, yet you make a big deal with I2a1b when it hasn't even been found.

The message is very clear, I2a1b is your Y-DNA so you're pushing for it.


What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?I believe Aryan culture started in South-Central Asia, that's where the earliest Indo-Iranian religions and traditions come to life, think of the earliest Vedic Aryans and the early Zoroastrianism traditions.


Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the KurdistanI already said it a million times, I believe it originated in Southeast Europe, and it entered the Middle East from the Balkans, is that what happened for sure? I don't know, but it's my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.

Frankly, I2a1b is not the only I* lineage in the Middle East, I2c and I1 also exist.

Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup I2a1 was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf

razor
23-09-11, 15:52
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short[/url]

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf

Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

Cobol19
23-09-11, 16:01
Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site, and if I2a1b is only 2800 years old (Not sure how that date comes up), I don't see how anyone can connect it to the Medes when they're clearly older than that.

If he was to say the Iranians that mixed with the local I2a1b Southeast Europeans became the Sarmatian folks all together, it would be a more plausible scenario than making up wild theories about Medes carrying such a young lineage or trying to connect it with tribes living in South-Central Asia.