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sparkey
23-09-11, 17:20
Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site.

The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.


On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios.

FWIW I think Nordtvedt has it right here, totally... our best guess should be the Slavic expansion until we actually have evidence of something else. Thanks for the great summary of Nordtvedt's views, he's an authority who has been right more frequently than most others.


As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

I think Bodin sees some important evidence: that I2a-Din is young and not ancient in the Balkans (or at least has a discontinuity), and that there is a good deal of Haplogroup I in Eastern populations like Kurds, quite possibly including I2a-Din or even being I2a-Din dominant. So he comes up with a fairly romantic theory about Sarmatians bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans. But as several of us have said, that's not the most likely theory with current evidence, and it will need a good amount of studies on Sarmatian ancient DNA, or at least modern Eastern I2a-Din. I guess that it's not a disprovable theory, I just wouldn't take a bet on Bodin's side.

Cobol19
23-09-11, 18:00
The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.

Based on Y-Search, the closest sample to the I2a* STR's found in the Neolithic site is a person from Mexico (ID: AVC9H (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=AVC9H&viewuid=AVC9H&p=1)) that carries haplogroup I2a2*, which is the 2010 designation for I2a1b, I would have thought that this person might be carrying the modern I2a2 (Former I2b), but the paper clearly indicates that the samples found in the site were I2a1-P37.2 (Former I2a*), so if we're going by STR evidence, the closest sample is I2a1b, not I2a1a unless you have something I have not seen.

Btw, someone had already entered the STR values for the Neolithic I2a sample on Y-Search, it's ID FJQXG (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=FJQXG&p=0) for whoever is interested in checking it out.

sparkey
23-09-11, 18:14
Based on Y-Search, the closest sample to the I2a* STR's found in the Neolithic site is a person from Mexico (ID: AVC9H (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=AVC9H&viewuid=AVC9H&p=1)) that carries haplogroup I2a2*, which is the 2010 designation for I2a1b, I would have thought that this person might be carrying the modern I2a2 (Former I2b), but the paper clearly indicates that the samples found in the site were I2a1-P37.2 (Former I2a*), so if we're going by STR evidence, the closest sample is I2a1b, not I2a1a unless you have something I have not seen.

Btw, someone had already entered the STR values for the Neolithic I2a sample on Y-Search, it's ID FJQXG (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=FJQXG&p=0) for whoever is interested in checking it out.

Cullen's Predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm) gives 100% confidence in I2a1a-M26 for the better sample, but isn't sure about the STR cluster it goes in (best guess is cluster A). Nordtvedt, Dienekes, and others have noted that it appears to be M26+ going by STRs.

razor
23-09-11, 18:19
And please I would like to know what Poli means on Scythian , my assumption is that is Scythian word , accepted by Slavs and it means field .


"Poli" was my typo. Sorry. It should be "Pali" (as in Diodorus and Pliny). "Spali" is considered a later variant (it appears in Jordanes' quote of a Gothic legend). I'm not sure what the word meant in Scythian. Diodorus contrasts this group to the "Napi" which linguists have interpreted to be "relatives" (or something similar) in ancient Iranic (perhaps something akin to the turkic "Pechenegs"). The interpretation "field dwellers" is a much later Slavic popular etymology. Whatever the "Pali" may have been originally, it seems that as time went on, the term became more and more associated with the concept of "royal clan" per se (Herodotus' "Basilei"?), and that whatever group acquired fleeting hegemony in the Iranic steppe world became "Pali". You no longer needed to be of Scythian ethnicity. The 1rst century "Spali" who created a "Scythian" power state between Danube and the Volga were Aorsan ("West" Alans). The "Spali" defeated by the Goths in the early 3rd c. were likely Alans. By the fifth century (if not earlier) the term had acquired the standard Alanic suffix -an (so now it was "Palan" or "Spalan" and variants). It has survived in East Slavic (South Russian more precisely) lore as the "Ispolins". It made its way into Armenian classical historiography [Zenob Glak] as "the land of Paluni" (but this could have been a Hunnic mediation). So there is no surprise to see it reemerge as the Old East Slavic "Polani". There were Scytho-Sarmatian remnants in the initial aristocracy of Kyivan Rus (perhaps the clearest evidence are the two Iranic deities in Volodimer's pagan pantheon of 980). But this is another story.

Cobol19
23-09-11, 18:30
Cullen's Predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm) gives 100% confidence in I2a1a-M26 for the better sample, but isn't sure about the STR cluster it goes in (best guess is cluster A). Nordtvedt, Dienekes, and others have noted that it appears to be M26+ going by STRs.

What are the defining STR markers for I2a1a? It's kind of odd how this calculator gives it that for sure when the closest person in genetic distance carries I2a1b, here's another calculator which predicts it as 100% I2a-P37.2 but we already know that:

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

We need more proof to indicate that it's I2a1a (Which I'm not disputing btw, just trying to make sure).

sparkey
23-09-11, 18:41
What are the defining STR markers for I2a1a? It's kind of odd how this calculator gives it that for sure when the closest person in genetic distance carries I2a1b, here's another calculator which predicts it as 100% I2a-P37.2 but we already know that:

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

We need more proof to indicate that it's I2a1a (Which I'm not disputing btw, just trying to make sure).

I think that the problem is that Mr. Morales (YSearch AVC9H) is mistaken about his haplogroup... Cullen's Predictor also gives a 100% confidence on him being I2a1a-M26... and also quite confident as being "A" cluster.

Some modals are here (http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.html) (not entirely up to date but should be sufficient).

Cobol19
23-09-11, 18:48
If we go based on this:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

I agree, the sample from the Neolithic site does seem to match I2a1-M26, a good question I always wondered about is, shouldn't it not make sense to compare STR marker values between ancient and modern haplotypes? I mean we know that STR markers mutate, for example these Neolithic samples carried a value of 13 on the DYS393 marker, who's not to say their descendants could have mutated to 14? I mean this is 5000 years ago, and I've seen more actual major STR differences in 3 or 4 generations which is peanuts in comparison, what do you think?

sparkey
23-09-11, 19:11
If we go based on this:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

I agree, the sample from the Neolithic site does seem to match I2a1-M26, a good question I always wondered about is, shouldn't it not make sense to compare STR marker values between ancient and modern haplotypes? I mean we know that STR markers mutate, for example these Neolithic samples carried a value of 13 on the DYS393 marker, who's not to say their descendants could have mutated to 14? I mean this is 5000 years ago, and I've seen more actual major STR differences in 3 or 4 generations which is peanuts in comparison, what do you think?

I think it depends on the haplogroup. I2a1a has an old enough TMRCA that a comparison between ancient and modern STRs would make sense, although we might expect the ancient sample to be closer to the modal than modern samples, which will have diverged different directions. If the modern TMRCA of a haplogroup is much younger than the ancient sample, however, we'll run into the difficulties you mention, and we will want deeper SNPs to be sure we're interpreting it right.

Cobol19
23-09-11, 19:16
I think it depends on the haplogroup. I2a1a has an old enough TMRCA that a comparison between ancient and modern STRs would make sense, although we might expect the ancient sample to be closer to the modal than modern samples, which will have diverged different directions. If the modern TMRCA of a haplogroup is much younger than the ancient sample, however, we'll run into the difficulties you mention, and we will want deeper SNPs to be sure we're interpreting it right.

As of now, I'm gonna take the sample as I2a1-P37.2 only since that's the only proof we have, while I'm not that familiar with the subclades and STR definitions with haplogroup I*, I have been heavily involved in my own haplogroup to know enough of STR's and SNP's, and I can safely confirm that STR's can be extremely misleading at times, which is why at the end of the day, only SNP's can truly define what is and what's not.

GloomyGonzales
23-09-11, 19:32
Some Ossetians are just a bunch of morons. Actually there're better of with Georgia, than with Russia. I mean South Ossetians had more rights as an separated ethnic group in Georgia than North Ossetians in Russia!

And one of these rights is the right to be exterminated by Georgians.

Shetop
23-09-11, 20:32
About Pontic-Caspian steppe as homeland of Sarmatians...
It is well known that it was very sparsely inhabited until just couple of centuries ago: Wild Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Fields). This steppe was a highway of many warrior tribes and it is hard to believe that large number of people could permanently settle there, grow in numbers and later spread towards West thus very significantly contribute to the gene pool of Europe. I think that in such open space it was hard to find shelter from an enemy, or just imagine cold winds in winter without a forest to slow wind speed down, or hot sun in summer without a tree which would make some shade.
I believe that forests northwest from the steppe were much more densely inhabited because they provided all those things which were problem in steppe. And it is well known who lived in those forests - it was Slavs.

So, my point is steppe should not be considered as a source of any DNA, nor should Sarmatians be as numerous as big was the territory they controlled.

Bodin
23-09-11, 22:44
We don't have any I2a1b data on ancient Scythians/Sarmatians, enough with this.

It does not matter much really, it was only one sample that carried haplogroup C anyways, but it's funny how you're trying to downplay a lineage that was actually found in ancient Kurgan remains, yet you make a big deal with I2a1b when it hasn't even been found.

The message is very clear, I2a1b is your Y-DNA so you're pushing for it.

I believe Aryan culture started in South-Central Asia, that's where the earliest Indo-Iranian religions and traditions come to life, think of the earliest Vedic Aryans and the early Zoroastrianism traditions.

I already said it a million times, I believe it originated in Southeast Europe, and it entered the Middle East from the Balkans, is that what happened for sure? I don't know, but it's my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.

Frankly, I2a1b is not the only I* lineage in the Middle East, I2c and I1 also exist.

Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup I2a1 was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf
Why do you persisting in conecting Scythian and Sarmathians?
First : Balkans and Southeast Europe is same thing
Second : I2a1 found in Trelleis is I2a1a ( not I2a1b .Din ) and they separated from eachother 20.000 years ago

Bodin
23-09-11, 22:46
Here's a prime source for you: the Hou Hanshu Cf. the footnote to their "Alan" text: http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/hhshu/notes19.html

It's the previous political formation, Yancai or Yentsai (sometimes confused with the "Antes") which bore the name of "great steppe". I have already stated the meaning of "Alani". It's not "my version", it's standard linguistics. "Alan" is simply the lambdacized pronunciation of "Aryan". Join a good IE linguistic discussion group like [email protected]/com. They have many fine linguists there.
Yes you are right , my mistake . Thanks for corecting

Bodin
23-09-11, 22:54
Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.
They were realy specifik it was I2a1a - most common in Sardinia and Basque , it separated from I2a1b 20.000 years ago . Yes Porphirogenetos ,Pliny , Lithuanian and Polish legends, Settling of 500.000 Sarmathians on Balkan during rule of Constantine the Great ( IV century ) , archeology that show no Slavic influence after VI century - only few Slavic settlements before ariving of Serbs and Croats ( Serbs and Croats settlements and burials are realy diferent from Sarmathian ) ,and many other proves I already stated

Bodin
23-09-11, 22:57
I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site, and if I2a1b is only 2800 years old (Not sure how that date comes up), I don't see how anyone can connect it to the Medes when they're clearly older than that.

If he was to say the Iranians that mixed with the local I2a1b Southeast Europeans became the Sarmatian folks all together, it would be a more plausible scenario than making up wild theories about Medes carrying such a young lineage or trying to connect it with tribes living in South-Central Asia.
There was no father of I2a1b in west Europe , it was I2a1a . Do you know what is estimated age of Haplogroup in one aeria?

Cobol19
23-09-11, 23:05
Why do you persisting in conecting Scythian and Sarmathians?
First : Balkans and Southeast Europe is same thing
Second : I2a1 found in Trelleis is I2a1a ( not I2a1b .Din ) and they separated from eachother 20.000 years ago

There was no father of I2a1b in west Europe , it was I2a1a . Do you know what is estimated age of Haplogroup in one aeria?

Because they ultimately have the same origin culturally, and the I2a1 found was I2a1, it's just speculation that it's I2a1a based on STR comparison with modern haplotypes, which I explained, is not a very accurate comparison due to the mutation that happens to the STR markers and the inaccuracy of STR predictions, that's where SNP's come on, and the SNP was P37.2, that's all we have.

Bodin
23-09-11, 23:08
The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.



FWIW I think Nordtvedt has it right here, totally... our best guess should be the Slavic expansion until we actually have evidence of something else. Thanks for the great summary of Nordtvedt's views, he's an authority who has been right more frequently than most others.



I think Bodin sees some important evidence: that I2a-Din is young and not ancient in the Balkans (or at least has a discontinuity), and that there is a good deal of Haplogroup I in Eastern populations like Kurds, quite possibly including I2a-Din or even being I2a-Din dominant. So he comes up with a fairly romantic theory about Sarmatians bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans. But as several of us have said, that's not the most likely theory with current evidence, and it will need a good amount of studies on Sarmatian ancient DNA, or at least modern Eastern I2a-Din. I guess that it's not a disprovable theory, I just wouldn't take a bet on Bodin's side.
Thanks for atleast accepting possibility , even Nortvedt didnt claim it is comed with Slavic expansions , he alowed other possibilities to . And Northvedt clearly didnt know anything about possibility of SerboCroatian Sarmathian origins , and conection betwen Medes and Sarmathians proposed by Diodorus .
For me the theory about Slavic origins of any nation on Balkans is romantic - archeology found in Balkans is realy diferent from one in clearly Slavic aerias except few early settlements from middle VI century- Serbs and Croats comed In VII century , and there is very low R1a , so low it could even all be explained as Germanic and Avaric contribution ( there is 7% of I1 in both Serbs and Croats , and only 5% 3.500 years old R1a in Serbia , and about Croatian R1a we dont know how many of it is Asiatic - nonSlavic )

Bodin
23-09-11, 23:13
"Poli" was my typo. Sorry. It should be "Pali" (as in Diodorus and Pliny). "Spali" is considered a later variant (it appears in Jordanes' quote of a Gothic legend). I'm not sure what the word meant in Scythian. Diodorus contrasts this group to the "Napi" which linguists have interpreted to be "relatives" (or something similar) in ancient Iranic (perhaps something akin to the turkic "Pechenegs"). The interpretation "field dwellers" is a much later Slavic popular etymology. Whatever the "Pali" may have been originally, it seems that as time went on, the term became more and more associated with the concept of "royal clan" per se (Herodotus' "Basilei"?), and that whatever group acquired fleeting hegemony in the Iranic steppe world became "Pali". You no longer needed to be of Scythian ethnicity. The 1rst century "Spali" who created a "Scythian" power state between Danube and the Volga were Aorsan ("West" Alans). The "Spali" defeated by the Goths in the early 3rd c. were likely Alans. By the fifth century (if not earlier) the term had acquired the standard Alanic suffix -an (so now it was "Palan" or "Spalan" and variants). It has survived in East Slavic (South Russian more precisely) lore as the "Ispolins". It made its way into Armenian classical historiography [Zenob Glak] as "the land of Paluni" (but this could have been a Hunnic mediation). So there is no surprise to see it reemerge as the Old East Slavic "Polani". There were Scytho-Sarmatian remnants in the initial aristocracy of Kyivan Rus (perhaps the clearest evidence are the two Iranic deities in Volodimer's pagan pantheon of 980). But this is another story.
Thanks for explanation , I am going to look in to the matter , conection Polani - Dervljani and Tervingi- Greutungi still intriguess me

Bodin
23-09-11, 23:20
About Pontic-Caspian steppe as homeland of Sarmatians...
It is well known that it was very sparsely inhabited until just couple of centuries ago: Wild Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Fields). This steppe was a highway of many warrior tribes and it is hard to believe that large number of people could permanently settle there, grow in numbers and later spread towards West thus very significantly contribute to the gene pool of Europe. I think that in such open space it was hard to find shelter from an enemy, or just imagine cold winds in winter without a forest to slow wind speed down, or hot sun in summer without a tree which would make some shade.
I believe that forests northwest from the steppe were much more densely inhabited because they provided all those things which were problem in steppe. And it is well known who lived in those forests - it was Slavs.

So, my point is steppe should not be considered as a source of any DNA, nor should Sarmatians be as numerous as big was the territory they controlled.
Initially Sarmathians lived north of Caucasus , and for they way of life steppes were the best shelter - they were horsemens living in carts pulled by horses .And horses need grass so no they couldnt lived in forest . Historical sources mentions up to 500.000 Sarmathian archers - that is enourmous numbers for that times . R1a is also lived in steppes even longer then Sarmathians and survived

Bodin
23-09-11, 23:23
Because they ultimately have the same origin culturally, and the I2a1 found was I2a1, it's just speculation that it's I2a1a based on STR comparison with modern haplotypes, which I explained, is not a very accurate comparison due to the mutation that happens to the STR markers and the inaccuracy of STR predictions, that's where SNP's come on, and the SNP was P37.2, that's all we have.
Mait you loosing it . You are the one that said it was I2a1b found in west Europe (Treilles ) , and now you saying only thing we know it is I -P37.2 , are you arguing with yourself now?

Cobol19
23-09-11, 23:31
Mait you loosing it . You are the one that said it was I2a1b found in west Europe (Treilles ) , and now you saying only thing we know it is I -P37.2 , are you arguing with yourself now?

I'm not arguing with myself, you just don't read, this is the first message I put in regards to this Neolithic I2a:


Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup I2a1 was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...00723108.short (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short)

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...01100723SI.pdf (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf)Then me and sparkey started discussing the possibility of this I2a1, he mentioned that it could be I2a1a based on the STR's, I did a quick search on Y-Search and the closest one was I2a2 (I2a1b), though this person was likely confused about his marker values and modern I2a1a is indeed the closest to this Neolithic I2a1, the problem here is that STR markers mutate, and this is a 5000 year old sample, I've seen bigger differences between 200 years, let alone 5000 years?

In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?

Kardu
24-09-11, 00:02
There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.





Kassites/kashkay were most probably related to modern day Circassians/Adygs (Georgian name for them is Kashagi)

razor
24-09-11, 00:26
In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?

Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)

sparkey
24-09-11, 00:35
Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)

P37 means P37.1 or P37.2... P37.1 and P37.2 are the same mutation but define different haplogroups. P37.1 defines D2, while P37.2 defines I2a1.

Cobol19
24-09-11, 00:36
Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)

They're the same as far as I know.


Kassites/kashkay were most probably related to modern day Circassians/Adygs (Georgian name for them is Kashagi)

Who knows, but considering that the Hurrians were likely connected to the ancient Caucasians, there's a good chance that the Kassites were too, unfortunately we don't have evidence for that to determine.

Shetop
24-09-11, 13:28
Initially Sarmathians lived north of Caucasus , and for they way of life steppes were the best shelter - they were horsemens living in carts pulled by horses .And horses need grass so no they couldnt lived in forest . Historical sources mentions up to 500.000 Sarmathian archers - that is enourmous numbers for that times . R1a is also lived in steppes even longer then Sarmathians and survived

Historical sources tell us that Sarmatians lived on shores of Black and Caspian sees. If you look at the distribution of I2a1b1 you would see that its frequency rises with the distance from those shores. Why is that - because it spread from Ukrainian forests.

And if you would know recent history of Russian empire you would never say that R1a is on the steppe since antiquity. Great majority of the people settled there following a plan of Russian Emperors in 17th, 18th and 19th century: Zaporizhia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhia_(region)#History); Novorossiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya)

Barxat
24-09-11, 20:59
I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.

Alan
24-09-11, 21:45
I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.

The dodecad results are all from Kurds of Iran and Iraq. Central Asian means nothing for the genetic make up. It is only a geographic Region which was and is still somehow dominated by West Asian and North European components. The so called South Asian ANI is also added under West Asian because it is obviously a West Asian gene. Just the name South Asian is misleading. And beside this West Asian element we can find a good chunk of North European components in the Urheimat of Indo-Iranians. The East Asian component can be excluded because it is obvious when and how it came there. So West Asian(+ANI)-North European was most probably the original genetic make up of Indo-Iranians who lived in Central Asia around BMAC and Andronovo, which is todays Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kasachstan.

I agree with you Kurds are genetically probably 1/3 Iranic

Cobol19
24-09-11, 22:03
The dodecad results are all from Kurds of Iran and Iraq. Central Asian means nothing for the genetic make up. It is only a geographic Region which was and is still somehow dominated by West Asian and North European components. The so called South Asian ANI is also added under West Asian because it is obviously a West Asian gene. Just the name South Asian is misleading. And beside this West Asian element we can find a good chunk of North European components in the Urheimat of Indo-Iranians. The East Asian component can be excluded because it is obvious when and how it came there. So West Asian(+ANI)-North European was most probably the original genetic make up of Indo-Iranians who lived in Central Asia around BMAC and Andronovo, which is todays Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kasachstan.

Real South Asian genes do exist on a very minimal level in the Middle East, of course the difference is South-Central Asian vs South India, both exist but the former is the more dominant one, Dienekes had done a K=15 which differentiated ANI from ASI:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMLu_oYC&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHFPbFViOENUNE9ZeGRDdGhtdHRHREE&hl=en&authkey=CMLu_oYC#gid=0

Alan
24-09-11, 22:15
Real South Asian genes do exist on a very minimal level in the Middle East, of course the difference is South-Central Asian vs South India, both exist but the former is the more dominant one, Dienekes had done a K=15 which differentiated ANI from ASI:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMLu_oYC&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHFPbFViOENUNE9ZeGRDdGhtdHRHREE&hl=en&authkey=CMLu_oYC#gid=0

My point most of the South Asian could easily be added as West Asian thats why the original study xing et al only recognized 2% South Asian among Iraqi Kurds while the other 7% were seen as West Asian. I assume those 2% ASI came with Gypsy or other South Asian immigrations.

Cobol19
24-09-11, 22:17
My point most of the South Asian could easily be added as West Asian thats why the original study xing et al only recognized 3% South Asian among Iraqi Kurds while the other 6% were seen as West Asian. I assume those 3% ASI came with Gypsy or other South Asian immigrations.

I don't think the South Indian in the middle east is Gypsy, it's most likely a very ancient gene wave (Remember that there was trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Civilization), not to mention that it could have come through other cultures like a domino effect.

Alan
24-09-11, 22:19
this is very much possible.

Barxat
25-09-11, 04:04
What is interesting about that links results is that Central Asian iranian speakers like the Pathan have large amount of South Indian at higher ratio then Iranians, which I believe is do to them gaining this at a later stage after the Iranian tribes split and some moved West and some moved further south who mixed with south indians and others mixed with West Asians.

Alan
25-09-11, 14:10
What is interesting about that links results is that Central Asian iranian speakers like the Pathan have large amount of South Indian at higher ratio then Iranians, which I believe is do to them gaining this at a later stage after the Iranian tribes split and some moved West and some moved further south who mixed with south indians and others mixed with West Asians.

Thats also the only possibility I see. Thats why I think, while ANI is really very close to West Asian and according to Dienekes seems like a small brother of it. The ANI component was most probably West Asian in origin just with a specific mutation. Thats why I think, the original Indo-Iranians West Asian (+ANI) + a chunk of North European. The North European in Tajikistan, Kazakhstan cant be ignored while there is a explain for the occurrence of East Asian.

Barxat
25-09-11, 14:35
I agree I also do see that the Indo-Iranians likely had low or absent South Asian and gained this at a later stage people like the Pathan who gained high amounts from mixing with native populations in the regions that they settled.

Bodin
26-09-11, 02:40
I'm not arguing with myself, you just don't read, this is the first message I put in regards to this Neolithic I2a:

Then me and sparkey started discussing the possibility of this I2a1, he mentioned that it could be I2a1a based on the STR's, I did a quick search on Y-Search and the closest one was I2a2 (I2a1b), though this person was likely confused about his marker values and modern I2a1a is indeed the closest to this Neolithic I2a1, the problem here is that STR markers mutate, and this is a 5000 year old sample, I've seen bigger differences between 200 years, let alone 5000 years?

In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?
Again you showing only partual data :Yes I know you said it was I2a1 in Treilles ; but when I in answer said: that it was I2a1a ; you said in post 500 :"I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site" What father of I2a1b ? I2a1b and I2a1a separated 12.000 years ago , and this site is 5.000 years old .

Cobol19
26-09-11, 02:42
Again you showing only partual data :Yes I know you said it was I2a1 in Treilles ; but when I in answer said: that it was I2a1a ; you said in post 500 :"I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site" What father of I2a1b ? I2a1b and I2a1a separated 12.000 years ago , and this site is 5.000 years old .

The father of I2a1b is I2a1.

Bodin
26-09-11, 03:07
Historical sources tell us that Sarmatians lived on shores of Black and Caspian sees. If you look at the distribution of I2a1b1 you would see that its frequency rises with the distance from those shores. Why is that - because it spread from Ukrainian forests.

And if you would know recent history of Russian empire you would never say that R1a is on the steppe since antiquity. Great majority of the people settled there following a plan of Russian Emperors in 17th, 18th and 19th century: Zaporizhia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhia_(region)#History); Novorossiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya)
Not realy Moldova is on Black sea shore and have more I2a1b than Ukraine . You should read Nestor Chronicler he explain why I2a1b around Charpathians in Ukraine and Bielarus would be elevated .Most of Sarmathians moved west and later some of them pulled back from Balkans .Ofcourse there was certain percent of I2a1b that Slavs get while they were under rule of Sarmathians - we know about Avaric custom to spend winters with Slavic wifes ( so part of Slavic J2 is of Avar origin ), so why wouldnt Sarmathians do the same?
Steppes north of Black sea are proposed LGM refugee for R1a , Andronovo culture is on steppes to and it is R1a to . Even nations that lived on steppes before this emperors plans - Turkic had significant R1a ( Altaic ).

Bodin
26-09-11, 03:18
The father of I2a1b is I2a1.
yes but I2a1 found 5.000 years BP cant be father of I2a1b

Bodin
26-09-11, 03:21
The father of I2a1b is I2a1.
yes but I2a1 found in site old 5.000 years cant be father of I2a1b

Cobol19
26-09-11, 03:36
yes but I2a1 found in site old 5.000 years cant be father of I2a1b

I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.

Alan
26-09-11, 14:12
hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?

There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.

Cobol19
26-09-11, 15:39
hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?

There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.

If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:

J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

Alan
26-09-11, 16:10
If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:


J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

is I2a1 the new name of I2b1* or is it a different subgroup. Dont know if he is on the Harrapa project but man R1a1a* seems to be a very frequent Haplogroup among Kurds.
Going by importance, from the studies and individuals seen so far. Haplogroup R1a1a*, I* and J2 seem to be the most significant Haplogroups followed by R1b, E1b*, J1* and to lesser degree G2a. rather small significant are T, R2a, Q.

Bodin
27-09-11, 00:30
I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.
Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)

Bodin
27-09-11, 00:34
That I2a1 that was found in Treilles was eather I2a1b or I2a1a , not I2a1*( X I2a1b , I2a1a) , and most probably it was I2a1a ( Sardinian ) and his descendants are still present on that aeria aldo in small percentage

Bodin
27-09-11, 00:36
If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:

J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T
So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?

Alan
27-09-11, 00:40
So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?

yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.

I know about 13 tested Kurds so far.

J1*= 2
E1b*= 1
G2a* = 2
R1a1a* = 3
I* = 3
T = 1
R1b = 1

Bodin
27-09-11, 00:46
yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.
Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army

razor
27-09-11, 00:52
Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army
Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE

Bodin
27-09-11, 01:01
Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE
Yes posibly , but Bastarnae are quite enigma , they name say it all ( bastards , from mixed origins ) . They could be Germanic or Celtoi , probably with lot of Sarmathian and Scythian genetic influence . Also core of Serbian settlement was not in Dardania .Serbs entering Dardania ( Kosovo , South Serbia , North Macedonia ) first time in XI century during raids of župan Vukan , and they starting to settle there in XII century ( 600 years after arriving on Balkans ). So I would stick with Goths ( esspecialy core of Ostrogoth commoners stayed on Balkans , while only nobility moved to Italy at the end of V century )and Sasi-Saxons , they certainly had some R1a to - and it further decrease Slavic influence on Balkans.

razor
27-09-11, 01:07
Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)
But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.

razor
27-09-11, 01:14
I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.

Cobol19
27-09-11, 01:18
Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):

Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians
Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%
Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%
Mediterranean = 17.7% - 19.8%/21% - 15.4%/14.9%
Neo African = 0% - 0%/0% - 0.2%/1.4%
West Asian = 45.8% - 42.1%/42.5% - 49.3%/45.4%
South Asian = 4% - 10%/9.3% - 9.8%/10.7%
Northeast Asian = 4.4% - 1.3%/0.8% - 2%/1.2%
Southeast Asian = 3.1% - 0.5%/0% - 1.5%/0.7%
East African = 0% - 0.5%/0% - 0.1%/0.8%
Southwest Asian = 3.7% - 14%/14.2% - 11.7%/16.7%
Northwest African = 0% - 0.3%/0.2% - 0.1%/0.3%
Palaeo African = 0% - 0%/0.1% - 0%/0.9%

The colored components seem to be the biggest difference between the Kurds/Iranians and the Ossetians, this makes the Ossetians a little distant in genetics, they tend to carry more European and East Asian genes, while the Kurds and Iranians seem to carry more Southwest Asian and South Asian genes.

Also here are the Tajik values:
Eastern European = 8.8%
Western European = 16.2%
Mediterranean = 10%
Neo African = 0%
West Asian = 28.2%
South Asian = 17.4%
Northeast Asian = 7.9%
Southeast Asian = 7.4%
East African = 0%
Southwest Asian = 3.9%
Northwest African = 0%
Palaeo African = 0%

Bodin
27-09-11, 01:26
But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.
Yes but I2a1b N and S are present in both aerias south and north of Danube , so there is not clear diference , they could evolve in Sarmathians and slovly supress they ancestor haplogroup

Alan
27-09-11, 01:27
Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):

Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians
Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%
Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%
Mediterranean = 17.7% - 19.8%/21% - 15.4%/14.9%
Neo African = 0% - 0%/0% - 0.2%/1.4%
West Asian = 45.8% - 42.1%/42.5% - 49.3%/45.4%
South Asian = 4% - 10%/9.3% - 9.8%/10.7%
Northeast Asian = 4.4% - 1.3%/0.8% - 2%/1.2%
Southeast Asian = 3.1% - 0.5%/0% - 1.5%/0.7%
East African = 0% - 0.5%/0% - 0.1%/0.8%
Southwest Asian = 3.7% - 14%/14.2% - 11.7%/16.7%
Northwest African = 0% - 0.3%/0.2% - 0.1%/0.3%
Palaeo African = 0% - 0%/0.1% - 0%/0.9%

The colored components seem to be the biggest difference between the Kurds/Iranians and the Ossetians, this makes the Ossetians a little distant in genetics, they tend to carry more European and East Asian genes, while the Kurds and Iranians seem to carry more Southwest Asian and South Asian genes.

The taken samples of the new Yunusbay Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=503909&postcount=5000

Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.

Cobol19
27-09-11, 01:32
The taken samples of the new Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.

Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.


Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

Alan
27-09-11, 01:39
Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.

Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

Thats what I wrote. They were originally from Northwest Iran and Azerbaijan settled in Kazakhstan by Stalin. And it is very interesting how still they have no genetic input from Central Asians (though living there more than 70 years).

Here a documentation about them


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAMGjADNw_k&feature=related


Kurds from Khorasan(Iran) have been somehow influenced by natives because they live there for more than 700 years.

Bodin
27-09-11, 01:42
I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.
Yes they have some Germanic elements , but also lot of Celtic( strong influence of La Tene) , and Scythians ( they lived nomadic - when they crossing Danube they do it in the carts ) . Around Zvonigrad there was almoust identical culture to Dacians - so they were probably very mixed. And Roman influence was realy strong .And that settling in 29 BC was not realy extensive - most of them stayed on previous positions

Alan
27-09-11, 01:44
Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

South Asian as a Gene doesent really exist the only thing I see is some populations taken as reference which mainly belong to West Asian-North European (ANI) and South Indian (ASI) components. Thats why those groups who score high East/West European also score high ANI. It all depends on the definition and reference population.

Cobol19
27-09-11, 01:46
Thats what I wrote. They were originally from Northwest Iran and Azerbaijan settled in Kazakhstan by Stalin. And it is very interesting how still they have no genetic input from Central Asians (though living there more than 70 years).

Here a documentation about them


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAMGjADNw_k&feature=related


Kurds from Khorasan(Iran) have been somehow influenced by natives because they live there for more than 700 years.

Yea, there's a very small number of Assyrians that lived in Kazakhstan too (Where this Kurdish sample was from), they too migrated during the USSR days.

Cobol19
27-09-11, 01:48
South Asian as a Gene doesent really exist the only thing I see is some populations taken as reference which mainly belong to West Asian-North European (ANI) and South Indian (ASI) components. Thats why those groups who score high East/West European also score high ANI. It all depends on the definition and reference population.

If you look at the K=15, Dienekes divided the ANI to South-Central Asian and ASI to South Indian, but at that time there was no Kurdish samples.

Alan
27-09-11, 01:53
If you look at the K=15, Dienekes divided the ANI to South-Central Asian and ASI to South Indian, but at that time there was no Kurdish samples.

Yes I know. To make my point clear here another example. In this admixture of Dienekes even Lithuanians and Russians show up a good portion of South Asian(green) because he used a other population as reference.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AiqxfdH1kqo/TnC1DOX7yUI/AAAAAAAAEHk/LanedZAS19Q/s1600/admixture-caucasus.png

such a "South Asian" gene doesent exist actually ASI is closer to South Indians while ANI shows very clear affinites with West Asian and North European.

Bodin
27-09-11, 21:27
Some of scientific works about Serb and Croatian Iranian origin :

History of Iran

Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats
By: Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, India
Jat Jyoti, Vol.4 no.11 (Nov. 2003) p.13-18.
(Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation, 248, Ram Krishna Vihar, 29, IP Extension, Delhi-110 092)


Abstract: Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented.

It is unfortunate that Dr. Sahib Singh Verma, Union Labour Minister, was not allowed to attend the recent World Jat Conference in Belgrade ("Sahib Singh wanted to visit Serbia to meet fellow Jats, PM put his foot down and spiked his bonding-in-Belgrade plans", Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Sad indeed, because there actually do exist strong connections between Jats, Serbs and Croats. Several historians view these communities as sharing a common ethnic origin as is evident from a study of the following submissions.

Philology: Croats as Hrvatis
Let us commence our investigation with the Croats. The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves "Hrvati" and their country "Hrvatska", whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name "Hrvati" is derived from the Avestan province "Harahvaiti" (Greek: "Arachosia"). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1955, pp. 33-36; Sakac 1949, 1937) As Dvornik notes, "P.S.Sakac thinks that he discovered the name 'Croats' in Darius' inscriptions from the sixth century B.C. There an old Persian province and people are mentioned, called Harahvaitai, Harahvatis, Horohoati..." (Dvornik 1956, p.26) Further, the Roman leader Ammanius Marcellinus mentioned that two cities arose in ancient Persia called Habroatis and Chroates. In this regard, Prof. Mandic writes,
"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)
Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam. Moreover, certain authorities note that the name of the Carpathian mountains is derived from Croatia:
"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)
Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration:
Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic
It is important to note that the Avesta - the sacred scriptures of the ancient Aryan Zoroastrians - mentions the lands settled by the Iranic peoples. Hapta-Hindawa (ie. the Punjab, "Sapta-Sindhu" in Prakrit) is mentioned in the Avesta amongst the Irano-Aryan lands. Even today, the Punjab is the primary home of the Jats. Since the Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River, and the Jats are the present-day inhabitants of the lost Harahvaiti, it would appear that Jats and Croats would be very closely related indeed.

Vexillology
Further compelling evidence comes from vexillology (the scientific study of flags). Thus, the Croatian flag is based on the chessboard, whence many Croatian historians consider Croats as eponymic descendants of the Sassanid chess master & minister Bozorgmehr, just as the Kambojas are eponymic descendants of Cambyses and Georgians are viewed as the eponymic descendants of King George II. In this regard, Prof. Mandic notes,
"Ancient Croatian folk art bears eastern and Iranian traces, particularly the Croatian "troplets". The Croats also brought over from Iran their national coat of arms with its 64 red and white checkers. (11: Strzycowskyi, 15-63, 156-181; Dado-Peranic, op.cit., 21-24; Mandic Hrvatski kockasti grb, 639-652)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)
Furthermore,
"The organization of the state among the southern Croats with the king, bans and zupans at its head similar to that of the northern Croats; in addition the religion, national customs, dress and arts of the southern Croats bear Iranian traces, just like the Croats in the north. " (Mandic 1970, ch.3)
Indeed, a total of 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have published 249 research works elaborating the Old Iranic origin of Croats (Tomicic 1998).

Folklore
A researcher notes similarities in folklore as well,
"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II)
Research studies on Croatian clothing reveals similarities with Sassanian and other Iranic styles both in terms of male and female clothing.

White Croatia, Red Croatia, Green Croatia
The Iranic origin of Croats is in fact the only way one can comprehend the traditional distinction existing between White Croatia, Red Croatia and Green Croatia:
"After the Iranian fashion the ancient Croats ascribed a specific colour to each of the four cardinal points of the compass in the territory which they inhabited. The colour white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. (10: Saussure, Le Systeme 235-297; idem, L'origine des noms 23; Sakac, op. cit., 37-40) Hence White or West Croatia, Red or South Croatia and Green or East Croatia." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1)
Further, Dobrovich notes,
"It should be noted that only the thesis of the Iranian origin of the Croats can explain the name "Horvath", the title of a Croat dignitary Banus, the names "White" and "Red Croatian", and the Bogumile phenomenon. According to this theory, the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors. The Caucasian Anten were another branch of this group." (Dobrovich 1963)
Let us conclude this section on Croats with the words of the learned Prof. Mandic: "The oldest historical evidence, the ancient Croatian social organization, religion, national customs and art indicate that the Croats are of Iranian origin." (Mandic 1970, Concl.)

Sarmatians, Sauro Matii, Surya Madras or Solar Medes
Now, the exact path of migration of the Croats from Iran to the Balkans is still disputed. Some hold that they migrated via Anatolia, others that they migrated via Central Asia and the Pontic region. Some of the latter historians link the Sarmatians with the Croats and Jats. Thus, Dvornik traces both Serbs and Croats back to the Sarmatians of Southern Russia (Dvornik 1956). The Sarmatians were generally identified as Scythians. Thus, Sulimirski, author of "The Sarmatians" also makes mention of the referral of the Emperor's to the Belochrobati or White Croats who "exhibited certain Sarmatian characteristics ... [they were] of Iranian origin" (Sulimirski 1970, p.190-1) Their interest to history stems from the fact that their matriarchial Scythian society probably formed the basis of the Greek legends of the Amazons. In this connection, it is interesting to note numerous reference to the fighting ability, combat skills, bravery and great freedom of Jat women - the Jat amazons.

The name Sarmatian is an Anglicization of the original Sauro Matii, the Latin form of the Prakrit Surya Madra or Surya Mada. The name means "Solar Medes", in English, another testimony to the worship of Surya, or Cyrus, the Asshur of Assyria, the Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians, the splendid Sun-god of the Iranic peoples. In this regard, Mandic notes,
"Indeed from the end of the I to III century A.D. in the city-state of Tanais, in the region of the Don, lived various Iranian tribes of Samatians as well as Croats who must have been Iranians. (4: Concerning the Iranian tribes in present-day southeastern Russia around the Don and the Iranian origin of the Croats, see: Niederle, I, 321-434; Rostovtzeff; Vasmer, I; Hauptmann; Nartical; Sakac, 313-340; Dabo-Peranic. For a summary of the theories on the Croatian name see: Sisic, Povijest Hrvata 238-240) Furthermore the national name "Croat" is of Iranian origin. According to the Russian Vselod Miller the name "Croat" comes from the Iranian word Hor-va (t)u meaning: the sun's bed or path. (5. Miller, 259 sq.) M. Vasmer derives the Croatian name from Hu-urvata meaning, "friend". (6. Vasmer, op. cit., 56) And the terms used to designate the high officials among the Croats, "kral, ban, zupan", are of Iranian origin. (7 Sakac, The Iranian origins of the Croats, 30-46; RP 195-201) (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1)
Slovaks & Jats
Prof. Mandic notes, "The great resemblance between the Croatian and Slovak languages tell us that the Croats for the most part moved south from northern Slovakia. For they are far nearer to each other in affinity than to any other Slavic language." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Thus, the Slovaks would also share the same Saka origins as the Croats and Jats.

Bosnia
Regarding the roots of Bosnians, Dodan notes that Bosnia is historically a Croatian land, that Bosnia belonged to Croatia in the early mediaeval times, that the majority of Bosnian population used to be and are still Croats, and that mediaeval Bosnian kings were ethnic Croats. Even their surnames end in "-an". Dodan quotes Draganovic's and Mandic's research according to which 95 % of Muslims and 30% of Serbs are actually Croats. He also elucidates the Iranian roots of the Croatian people (Dodan 1994).

Serbs
Now, we turn to the connection with the Serbs. Several historians maintain that the Serbian ruling caste shared the same origin as the Croats. Prof. Malcolm recently wrote a book "Bosnia" (Malcolm 1996), in which he clearly elucidates the Iranic origin of both Serbs and Croats. For instance, Prof. Salzman notes while reviewing Malcolm's first chapter:
"The Croats and Serbs (who were either Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes or Iranian tribes with Slavic subjects) arrived in the Balkans in the 620s, a land already occupied by the Slavs." (Salzman 1999)
The view of Prof. Malcolm is thus that the Croats and Serbs were originally Iranic speakers who adopted a Slavic language (Malcolm 1996). Examples of a conquering immigrant group adopting the language of its surrounding subjects abound in history. For example, the Scandinavian Normans adopted the Romance French language in Normandy, while their ruling kinsmen in England adopted Anglo-Saxon; the Germanic Franks, Merovingians and Carolingians adopted the Romance French language; the Nordic Visigoths adopted the Romance Spanish language; the Germanic Lombards adopted the Romance Italian language, and the Tungus Manchu adopted the Chinese language of their subjects. Likewise, the Jats were originally speakers of Scythian or East Iranic languages, who subsequently adopted an Indo-Aryan language. Hence, that the Iranic Croats and Serbs should adopt a Slavic language would not be unusual in any way.

The Croats were also commonly named by the medieval chroniclers as "Goths":
"The old Croatian chronicle 'The Kingdom of the Croats' and the 'Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin', based on Croatian national tradition and on the ancient records, states that the Croats whom they misnamed the Goths arrived for the north through Pannonia and Templana (6) in Dalmatia, which they conquered and settled. (7)" (Mandic 1970, ch.3)
This is important because the ethnonym "Jat" is widely considered a variant of "Goth" and its Greco-Latin variant "Getae". In this connection, Prof. Lozinski notes: (Lozinski 1964, Vernadsky 1952)
"Professor Vernadsky [25. Vernadsky, G., Ancient Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; an older, less scholarly attempt in this direction: Cuno, J. G., Forschungen im Gebiete der alten Voelkerkunde. Die Skythen (Berlin, 1870), pp. 225-286] was the first, in modern times, to suggest that the Slavs had direct Iranian antecedents. The derivation of both names from religious designations, as suggested above, may be considered as additional evidence, especially as most of the Slavic gods bear purely Iranian, or Indian, names. [26. Vernadsky, G., Kievan Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; Krappe, A. N., "La chute du paganisme a Kiev," Revue des eludes slaves, XVII (1937), 208. Rozwadowski, J., "Stosunki leksykalne miedzy jazykami slowianskimi a iranskiemi," Rocznik orientalistyczny, I (1914/15), 95-110, esp. 110] One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27. Ulewicz, T., "Okolo genealogii sarmatyzmu," Pamietnik slowianski, I, (1949), 105-107], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28. Bohomolec, F., Zbior dziejow polskich (Warszawa, 1767-68), III, Cromer M., Kronika, 5, 17, 19, 28; IV, Guagnino, A., Kronika Sarmucyey europeyskiey, 1 f., 7, 13, 16, 513.; Magistri Vincenti ep. Cracoviensis, Chronica Polonorum, ed. A. Przeidziecki (Krakow, 1862), 76 (cf. Paszkiewicz, op. cit., 360); Bielski, M., Kronika Polska (N. ed., Krakow, 1597), Introduction, passim., cf. Chrzanowski, I., Marcin Bielski (Lwow, 1926), 101-108, 504. ] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29. Vernadsky 1952] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [30. Vernadsky, G., and Dzanty, Dzambulant, "The Ossetian Tale of Iry Dada and Mstislav," Journal of American Folklore, LXIX (1956), 234, n. 39.] It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31. Strabo, XI, ix, 3.] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation." (Lozinski 1964)
Bulgarians
It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985)

Anthropology
The Iranic or Irano-Aryan race as a whole is dolichocephalic (long-headed), leptorrhine (having long, narrow noses), tall, robust, dark-haired, large-boned and fair-skinned with straight hair. These features are found amongst the Jats, Pathans, Persians, Rajputs and Kurds. Due to the common features of Iranic skeletons with Nordics, some authorities consider the Nordics and Iranics as belonging to a common Nordic-Iranian macro-race. It is a further strong support for the Iranic origin of Croats that the Croats, and indeed, West Slavs in general, display strong Iranic racial features.

Thus, the majority of Croatians today tend to be tall statured, with narrow facial features. Many historians consider these western Slavic features to be a trait passed on from the Iranic tribes mentioned above. The Alans in particular are thought to have had considerable impact on the Croatian racial "type". Now, there are three sub-types of Croats proper: Dinaric (Iranoid race), Mediterranean (Latinoid race) and Panonian (Slavoid race) The Dinaric type to which many Croats belong is often viewed as an Iranic sub-type:
"In the central mountainous regions settled by the Croats upon their arrival on the Adriatic the Dinaric type of Croat developed. This type is quite remote from the general Slavic type. The Dinaric Croats are tall in stature (ca. 1.8 metres), long-headed but with a skull of short circumference (cephalic index of 80-85)." (Mandic 1970, ch.3)
The main feature of the Dinaric sub-type of Iranics is that the head is long when viewed from front, but the circumference is short, giving the illusion of brachcephaly when viewed from the top. It is common amongst Armenians as well, and is often viewed as a breeding isolate of the Iranoid race.

Refuting the view that the Croatians were of Illyrian or Roman stock, Mandic notes, ".... Nevertheless one has to say that the contribution of the local Romanized remnants [Illyrian] of the prehistoric Dinaric folk, hardly amounted to more than 20% to 30% in forming the Dinaric Croat." (Mandic 1970, ch.3) These Mediterranean Croats are "intermediary in stature, a little smaller than the Dinaric type. They have quite oval skulls, dark hair and eyes and an olive complexion."

The Panonian Croats, however, are largely descendants of the Slavic populations. The Slavoid race in general (to be distinguished from the speakers of Slavic languages) is short-statured, brachycephalic (round-headed), with blond hair. Thus,
"When the Croats conquered Lower Pannonia and Savia they at one began to assimilate with the Kaikavian Slavs of those areas. Out of that came the third type of Croat, the Pannonian, of intermediate stature, blond hair, ruddy complexion and of a rather sizeable cephalic index. .... [A] conspicuous type of Pannonian Croat was preserved up until this day. They of all the Croats are the closest to the general Slavic type in their physical and psychological make-up. (88)" (Mandic 1970)
Thus, the round-headed blond Panonian Croats are not members of the Iranoid race, but instead are of the round-headed Slavoid race. They are, however, outnumbered by the Iranic or Dinaric Croats, who form the dominant element of Croatia

Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented.

Croatian elements among Serbs
Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat:
"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)
Jats
Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes:
"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435).
Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock.

Conclusion
It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself.

It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans.




References:

Beshevliev 1967: "Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians" by V. Beshevliev (in Bulgarian)(Antichnoe Obschestvo, Trudy Konferencii po izucheniyu problem antichnosti, str. 237-247, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka", Moskva 1967, AN SSSR, Otdelenie Istorii) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/besh.html
Dobrovich 1963: "Volk an der Grenze - Schicksal und Auftrag. Zur Geschichte der burgenlaendischen Kroaten," (People on the Border - History of the Burgenland Croats), by Johann Dobrovich, Burgenlaendische Forschungen, vol.47, Prov. Archive of Burgenland, Eisenstadt 1963, tr by Frank Teklits; http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/1999-07/0931520170
Dodan 1994: "Bosna and Hercegovina, a Croatian land", by Sime Dodan, Meditor, Zagreb, 1994.
Dvornik 1956: "The Slavs. Their Early History and Civilization." by F. Dvornik, American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Boston, USA., 1956.
Guldescu 1964: "History of Medieval Croatia", by Stanko Guldescu, Mouton (pub), The Hague, 1964; http://www.raceandhistory.com/Science/croatia.htm
Hina 2000: "Scholars assert Croats are Descendants of Iranian Tribes", Hina News Agency, Zagreb, Oct 15, 2000 (http://www.hina.hr)
Lozinksi 1964: "The Name Slav" by B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books,1964) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/lozinski.html
Malcolm 1996: "Bosnia: A Short History", by Noel Malcolm, New York University Press, New York, 1994; 1996, new ed.
Mandic 1970: "Croats and Serbs - Two old and different nations," by Dr. O. Dominik Mandic, Chicago 1970, Nakladni Zavod Matice Hrvatske, Zagreb, 1990; tr. Vicko Rendic & Jacques Perret, http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/
Sakac 1937: "Del origen caucaso-iranio de los croatas" ("Of the Caucasian-Iranian ancestry of the Croats") by S. Sakac, Zagreb 1937.
Sakac 1949: "Iranisehe Herkunft des kroatischen Volksnamens", ("Iranian origin of the Croatian Ethnonym") S. Sakac, Orientalia Christiana Periodica. XV (1949), 813-340.
Sakac 1955: "The Iranian origin of the Croatians according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus", by S. Sakac, in "The Croatian nation in its struggle for freedom and independence" (Chicago, 1955); for other works by Sakac, cf. "Prof. Dr. Stjepan Krizin Sakac - In memoriam" by Milan Blazekovic, http://www.studiacroatica.com/revistas/050/0500501.htm
Salzman 1999: "Book Review: Noel Malcolm, Bosnia" by Todd Salzman, Creighton Univ.; J. Religion & Society, Vol.1 (1999), http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/1999/1999-r1.html
Sara 1978: "The Scythian Origin of the Jat-Sikh", I.Sara, The Sikh Review, 1978, pp. 15-27 (pt.1), pp. 214-233 (pt.2) (http://www.sikhreview.org)
Schmitt 1985: "Iranica Proto-Bulgarica" (in German), Academie Bulgare des Sciences, Linguistique Balkanique, XXVIII (1985), l, p.13-38; http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/bulgar/schmitt.html
Shrava 1981: "The Sakas in India", S.Shrava, Pranava Prakashan, New Delhi 1981.
Sulimirski 1970: "The Sarmatians," by T.Sulimirski, Thames & Hudson, London, UK, 1970.
Tomicic 1998: "The old-Iranian origin of Croats", Symposium proceedings, Zagreb 24.6.1998, ed. Prof. Zlatko Tomicic & Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, Cultural center of I.R. of Iran in Croatia, Zagreb, 1999, ISBN 953-6301-05-5, http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats2.PDF
Toynbee 1934: "A Study of History," by A. Toynbee, Vol. 2., Oxford University Press, London, 1939, 1st pubd in 1934; cited by Sunny Singh (pers. comm.)
Vernadsky 1952: "Der sarmatische Hintergrund der germanischen Voelkerwanderung," (Sarmatian background of the Germanic Migrations), G. Vernadsky, Saeculum, II (1952), 340-347.




Identity of Croatians in Ancient Iran

The following books or articles are in PDF format.



The symposium proceedings "Old Iranian Origins of Croats" (65 KB, in English)
Zagreb, 24 June 1998


Hier is another one about Croats :
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/pdfs/iranian_origin_croats.pdf

Hier is one about Bulgarian haplogroups :
pdf: Y-CHROMOSOMAL HAPLOGROUPS IN BULGARIANS

Goga
27-09-11, 22:26
With all due respect but I don't think that the probability is very high that Serbs or Croats are from the Iranian Plateau or even from West Asia. I like the idea and like the idea that Kurds have some relatives in Europe, I mean why not. But something is just not right here. I know that sometimes the looks can lie, but I truly don't believe that ancient Iranians looked like Serbs or Croats. Serbs are just too light (white) for being of the Iranian ancestry. I think that the ancient Iranic folks had the same appearance as Kurds. Also Serbian DNA says that Serbs are native folks from Europe, they have only for about 15% of West Asian.

But it's possible that proto-Serbs (native Eruopeans) lived in North Caucasus and mixed a little bit with Iranic folks though. And after that they moved to the Balkans!

I don't know which scenario is right, Serbs are still very great people. I have a lot respect for them!

Bodin
27-09-11, 22:33
Hier is map from Historical Atlas ( istorijski atlas , BG 1977 ) , showing where from Serbs comed to Balkans ( in VII century ) , and ProtoSlavic Urheimat :
5209
And hier is map of clusters in Europe done by Y DNA str markers ( in work :" Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR - Haplotype groups in Europe ") :
5210

Cluster 18 is made from : Larger part of Ukraine , most of Moldova , Romania , most of Serbia , Croatia , most of Montenegro , parts of Hungary , BIH , parts of Macedonia, norteast Bulgaria
Greece , rest of Bulgaria, south Serbia make separate cluster
Central Hungary makes separate cluster
Albania and parts of Montenegro make separate cluster
Most of Slovenia , Istria and Rijeka in Croatia are in West european cluster
East and West Slavic ( except Ukrainians)speackers and Balts are in East European cluster - clusters of East and West Europe borders on Polish -German border

Bodin
27-09-11, 22:40
With all due respect but I don't think that the probability is very high that Serbs or Croats are from the Iranian Plateau or even from West Asia. I like the idea and like the idea that Kurds have some relatives in Europe, I mean why not. But something is just not right here. I know that sometimes the looks can lie, but I truly don't believe that ancient Iranians looked like Serbs or Croats. Serbs are just too light (white) for being of the Iranian ancestry. I think that the ancient Iranic folks had the same appearance as Kurds. Also Serbian DNA says that Serbs are native folks from Europe, they have only for about 15% of West Asian.

But it's possible that proto-Serbs (native Eruopeans) lived in North Caucasus and mixed a little bit with Iranic folks though. And after that they moved to the Balkans!

I don't know which scenario is right, Serbs are still very great people. I have a lot respect for them!
Ofcourse Iranian on iranian plateau would be darker -they mixed with lokal semithic population more than Serbs are
About autosomal DNA - it changes very fast - in few generations most of newcomers would autosomaly be same as old population . Ofcourse Serbs would mainly be Southeuropean Autosomaly - they live in southeurope , for same reason Kurds would be mainly west asian - that is classification of scientist

Goga
27-09-11, 22:58
Of course Iranian on Iranian plateau would be darker -they mixed with local Semitic population more than Serbs are.

About autosomal DNA - it changes very fast - in few generations most of newcomers would autosomal be same as old population . Of course Serbs would mainly be South European Autosomal - they live in south Europe , for same reason Kurds would be mainly west Asian - that is classification of scientist

My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin!

Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?

Goga
27-09-11, 23:01
I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.

You’re crazy and this is nonsense! Please think again. Sure Kurds are maybe for about 25-30% EAST Iranic (from Parthians). But I know that they are also for a HUGE part WEST Iranic. Kurdistan is the cradle of the Iranic people. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranians?
There’re just too much Caucasian and Mesopotamian names and words in the Kurdish and other Iranic languages.

Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan is of the Mesopotamian origin. It means 'monday' in Kurdish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushanbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushanbe)



"The Kurdish name for the first day of the week Sheme (Saturday) is in fact descended from Akkadian word Shabattu (In Sumerian Shabbât, Arabic Sabbath, Pahlavic Shunbat, Persian Shambed; Shamba; Shanbeh, even transferred to Greek as Sabbaton, German Samstag, Italian sabato, Spanish sábado, French Samedi). The Akkadian called the 15th day of the month, the day a full moon appears, Shabbattu. The question still remains why such an adoption was made for Kurdish and Persian days of the week"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_calendar)

Alan
28-09-11, 00:12
My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin!

Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?

Goga, from a Kurd to a Kurd, please read sometimes what you write yourself. Look now for the X time and it will not change no matter how many times you disappear for days. As if you think that the facts will change if you disappear for a time , even though it was explained you many times. Look there is a huge evidence and I dont need to explain it every time simply because you dont want to understand it. All Iranians share beside West Asian, a good chunk of West/East European gene. There is no evidence that proto Iranians were only West Asian. West Asia might be the homeland of Proto Indo-Europeans but Proto Iranians evolved in Central Asia not in West Asia. If we really consider Croats as descend of Iranians, than they would have genetically as much to do with them as Kurds. Kurds having more West Asian, Mediterranean and some Southwest Asian by intermixing with native West Asians. This would logically weaken the West East European to 10-15% and Croats mixing with native Balkanians which would weaken the West Asian to 20% and strength the Mediterranean component. However it is still not clear if Croats are descend from Iranians but it is very well clear and proven that the title Hrvat indeed has an Iranic origin and has no meaning in Slavic. But if the Hrvats are descend largely from Iranians and did not just get their name from Iranian tribes is still highly debated.

Goga
28-09-11, 00:29
Goga, from a Kurd to a Kurd, please read sometimes what you write yourself. Look now for the X time and it will not change no matter how many times you disappear for days. As if you think that the facts will change if you disappear for a time , even though it was explained you many times. Look there is a huge evidence and I dont need to explain it every time simply because you dont want to understand it. All Iranians share beside West Asian, a good chunk of West/East European gene. There is no evidence that proto Iranians were only West Asian. West Asia might be the homeland of Proto Indo-Europeans but Proto Iranians evolved in Central Asia not in West Asia. If we really consider Croats as descend of Iranians, than they would have genetically as much to do with them as Kurds. Kurds having more West Asian, Mediterranean and some Southwest Asian by intermixing with native West Asians. This would logically weaken the West East European to 10-15% and Croats mixing with native Balkanians which would weaken the West Asian to 20% and strength the Mediterranean component. However it is still not clear if Croats are descend from Iranians but it is very well clear and proven that the title Hrvat indeed has an Iranic origin and has no meaning in Slavic. But if the Hrvats are descend largely from Iranians and did not just get their name from Iranian tribes is still highly debated.
I've problems with the connection to this site!

I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?

Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.

If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.

Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.

As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!

zanipolo
28-09-11, 00:52
Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE

Since the Bastarnae ( many say germanic people ) came from north of the Carpathians mountains ( actually original name was Montes Bastanae) and you say they migrated to Dardania , which is modern Kosovo. would you agree then that the E haplotype which has the highest percent in Kosovo , originated north of the carpathians mountains.

I agree some say the Bastanae's borders where the Dniester river, others also say the Peucini tribe where Bastanae

Alan
28-09-11, 01:02
I've problems with the connection to this site!
Good I understand that.



I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?

Manneans-Hurrians, Elamites and other tribes.



Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.

Ossetians mixed with Germanic and Slavic tribes? Evidence? Ok so are Pathans with 19,5% and Burusho with 17,7 % West/East European Germanic and Slavic mixed too?



If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.

Are you even aware of the nonsense you post here. What kind of explain is that. Do you really think that Germanics and Iranics who have at least 3000 thousand of years difference among their language evolved on the same place on the world and out of nowhere started to talk different languages? The Proto-Indoeuropeans were from West Asia moved into the Steppes mixed there with North European Hunthers and Gatheres and a new branch of Indo Europeans developed. Out of this branch a part moved into East and established the Andronovo Culture-BMCA and out of this, the Indo-Iranians evolved.



Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.

As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!
:banghead:

Dude now for the sake of God are you aware how much nonsense you write here.

You first write Indo-Iranians were from West Asia, than you write the West/East European among Kurds came from Eastern Iranians? How did those Central Asian Iranians get it if Iranians did not have West Asian among them?


I dont understand how a person who is mentally in good conditions (what I think you are), can just write half of this nonsense and at the same time contradict himself so much. I really feel sorry that I expose you so much because you are a Kurd but man you should really stop to argue about this. You just make it worth.

Goga
28-09-11, 01:22
I hope you will get the same internet problems as I do have now. Maybe then you'll believe me! I'm not the only one here with these internet problems!

I never contradicted myself!

I'm not saying that hg. I in Kurds is from East Iranic tribes! Hg. I is from the same people from Europe who also carried North European component into Kurdistan! Where is hg. I from? Hg. I is very rare in Central Asia and among East Iranic people.

I'm just saying that a part of the ancient Iranic tribes moved to Central Asia, mixed with other people and came back. And other part stayed in their homeland!

And Tajikstan was always influenced by the Russians. It was even part of the USSR. As far as I know in Tajikistan live many Russians!

Alan
28-09-11, 01:27
I hope you will get the same internet problems as I do have now. Maybe then you'll believe me! I'm not the only one here with these internet problems!

Goga I think you get me wrong, I said I understand because I know that some Users have connection problems.



I never contradicted myself!

I'm not saying that hg. I in Kurds is from East Iranic tribes! Hg. I is from the same people from Europe who also carried North European component into Kurdistan! Where is hg. I from? Hg. I is very rare in Central Asia and among East Iranic people.

I'm just saying that a part of the ancient Iranic tribes moved to Central Asia, mixed with other people and came back. And other part stayed in their homeland!

And Tajikstan was always influenced by the Russians. It was even part of the USSR. As far as I know in Tajikistan live many Russians!

Goga all well and fine but this is still not an explain how East/West European came to Burusho and Pathans. Tajikistan has nothing to do with Pathans and Burushos. All Iranic tribes share a good chunk of East/West (NOrth) European as they share West Asian. What shows us that both elements had played a role in forming the Indo-Iranians.

Goga
28-09-11, 01:56
Listen, I can be wrong and you can be right. I'm not saying that I'm speaking the true. But saying that there're other possibilities too. Your theory does make sense. But it doesn't answer all questions.

I'm just saying that Indo-Iranians and their proto-language evolved somewhere around the Caucasus and NOT in Central Asia! Who is saying that Indo-Iranian is from Central Asia? Have you seen evidences?

Some of these proto-Indo-Iranians from Caucasus migrated into Central Asia, and part of these same proto-Indo-Iranians stayed in West Asia. This group became a West Iranic group!
While the group of proto-Indo-Iranians that migrated into Central Asia on their way to Andronovo place they mixed with the Europeans and later with the local Central Asian people. They became known as the East Iranic group. Later part of this East Iranic group came to West Asia again (backmigration)!

Goga
28-09-11, 02:52
I made a picture for you of what I think!

Two blue arrows are 2 first migrations out of West Asia. Orange arrow = West Iranians and purple arrow = East Iranians.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7726/indoiranians.jpg

razor
28-09-11, 06:16
All we can say is that historical literature has some of the Bastarnae migrating towards Dardania (with the reluctant consent of the Romans) in 29 BCE. Their subsequent fate is unknown. This is backed up by archaeological research which shows that the Bastarnian Poeneshti-Lukashovka culture disappears from the Middle and Lower Dnister in the last decades of the 1rst century BCE, but the two other major Bastarnian concentrations (in Western Polissia and on the Middle Dnipro) remain in place. The P/L Bastarnae were Yastorf culture migrants from the Elbe/Oder interfluvium. The likelihood of their having anything to do with the high percentage of E in contemporary Kosovo seems rather slim.

Bodin
29-09-11, 00:03
My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin!

Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?
Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years .
European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)

Bodin
29-09-11, 00:11
I've problems with the connection to this site!

I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?

Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.

If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.

Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.

As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!
It seams they just assign North European autosomal to I haplogroup . I have 57% of North European ,and almoust every Serb or Croat I know have NorthEuropean component near to 60%

Bodin
29-09-11, 00:22
Scientific work that pointing out diferences in archeologies of Serbs and Slavs :
Djordje Jankovic

(Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade)
The Serbs in the Balkans in the light of Archaeological Findings
Source: The Serbian Questions in the Balkans, Faculty of Geography, Belgrade, 1995
" In the second half of the 12th century, Wilhelm of Tyr wrote that the Serbs lived in mountains and woods, that they did not know much about agriculture, and that they had many herds of cattle, much milk, cheese, butter, honey, and wax.[16]
This, still preserved, cattle breeding way of life of the Serbs was best described by Jovan Cvijic.[17] Their seasonal movements, singled out in his works, from the Dinaric region to the mesopotamia between the Sava and Drava rivers, and partly to the Littoral, gave an exact picture of the old Serbian ethnic area. The settlements were located in the mountainous regions, and in winter the pastures were looked for in the plains. The Serbs followed the same pattern in the Middle Ages as well, when they settled the Dinaric mountains, with many plateaus, and the neighbouring sunny valleys and plains suitable for winter homes. The arrangement of settlements and graveyards, the appearance of homesteads, the crafts, and the character of the population had to be in accordance with their way of life."
"The culture of the South Slavs is well known thanks to the researches carried out in Bulgaria, Romania, and in our country.[22] The settlements were located in river valleys, on gentle slopes, close to the water. Half-buried wooden houses had stone or earthen furnaces in one of the corners. In most cases only the quadrangular buried construction and the furnace remained intact. They burnt their dead, as all other Slavs did, and then buried them in the ground, with or without urns. Such settlements and graveyards on the territory of the former Yugoslavia are known to exist in the Danube and in the Sava Basins.[23]
The Serbs lived in hilly-mountainous regions. Their settlements with houses above the ground were situated on the slopes, close to wells and ponds. The fireplace was on the floor of the house, close to the wall or in the corner. Not much could be saved of these houses, so they are not easy to locate. The whereabouts of an early Serbian settlement have been established in the Pester field.[24] The only explored settlement is situated in Batkovici near the town of Bijeljina.[25] Shallow foundations of irregular shape - the remains of these houses above the ground - were found here. This settlement was populated throughout the Middle Ages, starting from the early 7th century.
The Serbs cremated their dead and displayed the remains above the ground. It was a special way of burial in the air. Only under certain conditions the archaeological findings of this custom could be called graves. This procedure with the dead is depicted in the Story of the Past.[26] These "graves" were archaeologically explored in the area of Luzicani.[27] Today, they are small mounds of about 3 m in diameter and 0.5 m by height. The construction of the burial mounds has not been sufficiently explored. Shattered pieces of the dishes which were used in the funeral and memorial feasts are sometimes found along the brim or inside the burial mound.
The Serbian graveyards from the 7th and 8th centuries were archaeologically explored in Ljutici near the town of Pljevlja, and on Mount Jezerska between the towns of Prizren and Strpce.[28] Since these burial mounds were easy to notice, they were also found on many other sites - on Mount Pester and by the towns of Savnik, Drvar, Grahovo, Srb, etc. A burial mound near the town of Konjic was partly explored.[29] With the abundance of earthenware findings, it is similar to the burial mounds on the Danube river found on Ostrovul Mare in Romania.[30] These graveyards can hardly be preserved on cultivable land with no rocks. In the Pannonian Plain, or on similar grounds, they could only be preserved and noticed by accident. The graveyard on Ostrovul Mare is not destroyed as there were meadows there, not cultivable land.
The graveyards with burial mounds are usually located near a water spring, which shows that there were settlements in the vicinity. As a rule, even today, modern settlements and sheepfolds are situated close to these graveyards although no traces of the previous settlements have been discovered so far. But, they existed and this is supported by indirect proofs of social life in the vicinity. Namely, in the Story of the Past were depicted pagan "igrista" (playgrounds) between the villages.[31] There, the pagan Slavs gathered, danced, and got married. In Emperor Dushan's Charter (1331-1355) to Chilandarion, in which the boundaries near the monastery of St. Peter Koriski were described, a toponym for one of the peaks of Mount Jezerska was "Igriste".[32] This means that both the Serbian graveyard and a pagan centre of social life were situated on Mount Jezerska, which certainly proves that people lived there in the surrounding villages. Such toponyms still exist. For example, in central Bosnia, east of the town of Kakanj, there is Igrisca peak (1303 m) and on Mount Javor, south of Vlasenica - Igriste (1406 m).
So, the Serbian settlements as well as their graveyards were situated in the hilly-mountainous region such as the Dinaric region. In these regions people mostly raised cattle. The line that connects the locations of the explored burial mounds denotes the area in which the Serbs lived in the 7th and 8th centuries: from the divide of the Sitnica and Lepenac rivers in the south-east to the basin of the Una river in the west. There are no data about the eastern boundaries so far."
"The area beyond these boundaries offers archaeological traces of the South Slavs and other peoples. The graveyards common in the South Slav culture, with the remains of the dead cremated and buried in the ground, have been discovered in the Danube basin (Celarevo, Slankamen)[33] and in the Sava basin (Laktasi, Bijeljina).[34] These findings determine the former northern boundaries of the Serbs. Such graves in the Littoral could possibly belong to the Croats (Kasic,[35] Bakar[36]). Within the boundaries of the medieval Croatia, in the Littoral, archaeologists found numerous skeleton graveyards which undoubtedly belonged to the Croats from the time when they adopted Christianity in the 8th and 9th centuries.[37] These graveyards determine the possible south-western boundaries of the Serbs.
Apart from the Slavs, the population that spoke the Romance languages also lived on this territory. The archaeological findings until the 7th century inclusive give information about the Romanic people or Byzantines living in the hinterland.[38] The Romanic people, known in the written sources, stayed longer in the Littoral - in the towns such as Durazzo, Dubrovnik or Zadar. The town of Svac, about 10 km far from the Coast and Ulcinj, is very significant.[39] The crypts in which the dead were buried in the Christian tradition were discovered in this town. Byzantine jewellery, dishes, and other objects known in the Byzantine regions extending from Crimea, across Sicily, to Istria were found lying by the skeletons. The objects of the Slav origin, such as pots made on a slow wheel and decorated with a comb, were also found. Similar graveyards were also discovered in Durazzo.[40]"
"These Byzantine graveyards are particularly important for establishing the origin of the Koman-Kruje culture. This culture appeared at the end of the 7th century and disappeared in the 9th. Albanian scientists are trying to use this culture in order to prove the continuity between the old Romanized population and the Albanians of today.[41] However, these skeleton graveyards conceal the remains of special costumes and presents. Unique buckles, shackles known with some nomads, axes as weapons, and imported Byzantine jewellery were found. These findings differentiate this population from the Romanic people of Svac and Durazzo, where there are no such objects. Since the graveyards in the Koman-Kruje culture are situated in the mountains, one should have in mind cattle breeders here. They lived in the area from Mount Rumija to Ohrid Lake. Everything points to the fact that the bearers of the Koman-Kruje culture arrived there at the end of the 7th century.[42] They were probably settled in the region in order to defend the Durazzo-Salonica road, and they were destroyed when the Bulgarians started spreading in the hinterland of Durazzo in the 9th century.
Archaeological findings of the South Slav, Romanic, and Croatian tribes as well as of the Koman-Kruje culture delineate the ethnic area of the Serbs. It is necessary to point out that all the archaeological data on the Serbs coincide with those of their neighbours."




Dr Djordje Jankovic
Assistant Professor in the Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, University of Belgrade. He teaches Medieval Archaeology from the 4th to the 17th centuries. He has published about twenty scientific papers in medieval archaeology, in particular within the area of Slav Archaeology.

Alan
29-09-11, 04:31
Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years .
European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)

I can confirm you. I have the same observation. But from my observation it has less to do with the heat rather than solar latitude and clear sky. In Regions were the Sun is hide behind clouds and there is more fog, the People are usually lighter. Also living conditions and food play a role in physical appearance.

The Skin color varies from Pink-Pale to light olive.
http://www1.minpic.de/bild_anzeigen_kleiner.php?img=156281.jpg
http://www1.minpic.de/bild_anzeigen.php?id=156281&key=53879491&endehttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/9390750_343c89e617.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/8/9392821_6bf443da27.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/9392961_1fb486f83b.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/9390667_cc9c51197f.jpg

In Regions were the sky is more clear and the people have more direct contact with the sun on their skin, they have usually a tan and look darker.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2902922070_a86355c84f.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2901708476_5c42ae8ced.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3032/2895305737_8813a13ee6.jpghttp://www1.minpic.de/bild_anzeigen_kleiner.php?img=156282.jpg

The Genes a person carries is the Hardware. These Hardwares usually have their own latitude of phenotypes and skin color (Caucasians have a huge latitude of skin color, Sub Saharan Africans less) depending on which software you install (Living conditions, Solar latitude and food).

Yetos
08-10-11, 21:04
just a thought,

has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians,

area of Samara north east of Caucas,

the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians,

Not a theory, just a thought,

zanipolo
08-10-11, 21:34
just a thought,

has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians,

area of Samara north east of Caucas,

the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians,

Not a theory, just a thought,

Thats where they where once, they pushed the germanic Bastanae and goths eastward in the 3rd century

Sergius
23-10-11, 07:53
I was impressed by the strongest and most valid argument based on the nomination of the currency Dinar. By the way, how Roman Denarius fits into the frame? This political theory is quite old and starts more than a century ago with the need of Croats to differ from their neighbors. Before of that other theories were launched to make difference between Slav speakers on Balkans. Each and every of them was not waterproof at all and all of them ended miserably. JAT people do have the same problem, how to differ from Hindi and Pakistani people.

Bodin
23-10-11, 22:01
I am back !
First : when you looking for words with common origins just remove vowels so Samara ( SMR ) and Saramathian ( SRMTH) do not have same origins .
Second : name of Roman currency Denarius is taken from Persian currency - Tadaaaah : Iranian origin . Also mountain Dinara and Dinaric chain of mountains is place originaly inhabited by Serbs and Croats ( Belgrad is inhabitet by Serbs only since XIV century )and it also have Iranic name.

Sergius
23-10-11, 23:16
Dinar started with Sassanid Dynasty (224 – 651 AD) in Persia. It is far later than Roman Denarius coin was in circulation. Manipulation with similar toponymes has been many times the way to false conclusions so let us drop Dinara, Beograd… I would like, better I would love to be a descendent of great Sarmatia but one is troubling me: Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2500/ 2,800 years. Meaning that the first carrier was born around 7th century BC. This guy had to be hyperactive and he had to have at least 100 concubines to create an army capable to control 1/3 of Europe just in few centuries after his birth.

razor
23-10-11, 23:28
Even worse for Bodin. Nordtvedt has refined his computations. Dinaric (N) has a MRCA who was born around 300 BCE and Dinaric (S) has a MRCA born around 30 BCE.

Bodin
24-10-11, 01:02
Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes .
But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away

Bodin
24-10-11, 01:05
By the way nice COA of Černojević dinasty , with very nice Sarmathian dragon on helmet - hail societatis draconistratum

razor
24-10-11, 02:03
Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes .
But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away

The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers!
Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.

Sergius
24-10-11, 12:23
Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes.
One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.
At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.
I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The Dragon of Tanais /Ivo Biondic; Mitjel Yoshamya / Iranian name for Mihovil Lovrić ).
Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
No offence meant and I hope none taken.

razor
24-10-11, 14:59
And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs .
I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.

Bodin
25-10-11, 03:37
The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers!
Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.
And why would all R1a go north and I2a1b south , they didnt have genetic in that times so they could separate that way ?
Yes it makes sence , there is few posibilities : maybe slavic was lingua franca in Hunic empire , maybe Sarmathians married Slavic womens and than went to war ( both Sarmathian men and woman use to go to war ) and Slavs womans stayed with childs and childs learned slavic languague - childrens always learn languague of mothers - same thing happened in Basque

Bodin
25-10-11, 03:53
Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes.
One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.
At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.
I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The Dragon of Tanais /Ivo Biondic; Mitjel Yoshamya / Iranian name for Mihovil Lovrić ).
Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
No offence meant and I hope none taken.
None taken offcourse we are hier to debate .
The same stories were spocken about Slavic ancestry of Balkanic nations - they even claimed Goths , Bastarnae , Swede , Sarmathae , Heruli ,... to be Slavic , they claimed Slavs conquered Egypt , ... Slavs are from Atlantis ,... There is always peoples ready to make fairy tales . So dont look every one that walks with me , when you judge me.
And yes Serbs used to live in Bohemia ( Czech republik ) , Lužica ( Deutschland ) and parts of Bavaria and west Poland before moving to Balkans and Croats in Czech and Moravia , so river names simmilar to ours there are not suprise . You probably missunderstud me I havent said Sarmathians comed to Balkans directly from steppes - they are moving to west since 2 century AD.
And in that times there was no separate Montengro nation it was born in XVII century and created of Serbs ( in Sandžak = Brda part of Rascia not Dioclitia) , Serbs and Red Croats in East Hercegovina ( Nikšić ) , Red Croats and Albanians in Dioclitia . I am not trying to say Montenegros are not separate nation today

Bodin
25-10-11, 03:59
I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.
No he is speacking about Serbs and Croats - they were pastoralists - look at Hercegovina anybody who live of agriculture would never survive there - and that is main place of Serbo-Croatian settling . Serbs and Croats settled mountains , not plains , and in any scientific book you would find that they were mainly pastoralists and use agriculture only as bonus income . They also never made villages next to river banks like Slavs , they villages are alway on hils few miles from river

Sergius
25-10-11, 22:38
I am not talking about similarities in names of rivers, villages, mountains. I am talking about Montenegrin ancestors moving complete “geography” in new homeland. Meaning that all of them are identically named and placed in the same order as they were in old homeland. Reason? To keep the memory, to keep the magic order….
This facts coupled with new dating of Dinaric haplotype are in perfect correspondence. The first bearer near Vistula, ancestors of Montenegrins, ancestors of Serbs and ancestors Croats located there near Vistula several centuries later in the same region. Moved together as neighbors to Balkans with A LOT of other Slavs, Goths…. Everything has sense and it is in logical order.
About Iranian influence on Balkan nations – you are right of course. As great nation and great civilization they did influence whole of Europe. The problem is that our history is a way to Eurocentric. Egypt, Persia, India, China… They did not exist and everything starts with ancient Greeks just because they lived in Europe. Taking that fact into account one must be aware that influence of Persia was always on the margin of European history. This influence has changed a lot Europeans and Slavs among them. The influence does not have to be necessarily by genes. Take as example Khazars and Jewish influence that has shaped their kingdom without influence of major number of Jewish newcomers. Culture, symbols, terms, religion, music can move around just due to the fact that is superior.
P.S. Just take into consideration what kind of European Cuisine we would have without Persian influence. BLJAK!

Sergius
26-10-11, 17:41
You are right about Montenegrins – at the time being they did not form a nation and my term is Montenegrin ancestors. The same goes for Serbs and Croats.
About forming all of modern Balkan nations I can tell you something that slowly starts to be accepted in EX of Yugoslavia. Mostly they are a product of religious efforts and they are basically formed around one of 3 major religions. Therefore theories like Iranian one are needed to strengthen to myth.

Check the language in Croatia and you must see many dialects of different Slav origin. Some are so far apart that they communicate easily only using the official language. The same goes for Serbs.
The cohesive force was the Catholic Church in Croatia. Please be kind to find IVAN MUŽIĆ and his HRVATSKA POVIJEST DEVETOGA STOLJEĆA. He places first Croats settlers in Lika and Krbava. Around them he places other Slavs, Latin people, Dalmatians….
Therefore, I would not go so far to place Red Croats on modern soil of Montenegro so easily. The fact that they have made wars latter conquering each other territories, intermarriages of nobles and inheritance of the thrones are not proving Croat, Serb or Bosnian ethnical movements towards Montenegro

Maciamo
23-12-13, 11:08
Old thread, but I haven't contributed yet. So here are my thoughts.

The Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian-speakers. Like all Indo-Iranian people, they descended from the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), itself descended from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE) in the forest-steppe zone of central European Russia. As such, the Scythians and Sarmatians were essentially an R1a people.

However, the Proto-Iranians conquered other Indo-European tribes from the Pontic Steppe and Central Asia, notably in Chorasmia, Margiana and Bactria. These people must have included a substantial number of R1b (M269 and M73) lineages, as well as minorities of G1, G2a3b1 and J2. Around modern Ukraine it is reasonable to think that I2a1b (M423) people were assimilated by the Scythians and Sarmatians, although I doubt that I2a1b lineages were part of the original Iranian speakers.

Judging from the haplogroups found among the Pashtuns of Afghanistan, speakers of an East Iranian language descended from Scythian, and the Ossetians, who claim to descend from the Alans/Sarmatians and speak a language descended from Sarmatian, it is very likely that the Scytho-Sarmatians were an admixture of R1a, R1b, G2a and J2a. It is odd, however, to see the huge discrepency between the haplogroups of the Ossetians (mostly G2a, with some R1b and J2a, but hardly any R1a) and the Pashtuns (55% of R1a, with some G2a and J2a). That may be because the Alans were an ethnically different people from the mainstream Sarmatians. The Alans were probably not even an ethnic group in themselves, but rather a coalition of different people, as the 4th-century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus explained.

Overall, I believe that over 50% (perhaps as much as 80%) of Scythians and Sarmatians paternal lineages must have been R1a, and mostly the eastern R1a-Z93 (+ subclades). The biggest minority haplogroup would have been R1b (10-20% of the total). Then minor percentages of G2a, J2 and maybe traces of T.

Robert6
31-07-14, 17:26
Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex.
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/i135/1403/d6/0eed8b3e6362.jpg/htm

"Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru/i410/1403/51/ea4128e4bb03.jpg/htm
http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg

LeBrok
01-08-14, 18:55
Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex.
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/i135/1403/d6/0eed8b3e6362.jpg/htm

"Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru/i410/1403/51/ea4128e4bb03.jpg/htm
http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg

Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?

Robert6
02-08-14, 00:08
Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?
There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
Eastern European Karaites have
6*J2,, 30%
5*E1b1b1,, 25%
4*G2a,, 20%
3*J1,, 15%
1*L2a,, 5%
1*R1b1a2,, 5%

In 1971 Academician V.P. Alekseev based on craniological parameters study of population from Khazar town Sarkel (Lower Don) came to the conclusion that the Karaites are the product of mixing of Khazars with local (Crimean) tribes (such as the Sarmatians, Sarmato-Alanians, Alans, Goths and perhaps the Greeks).

Some pictures of Karaites people http://www.agatov.com/content/view/3731/58/
http://www.religion.in.ua/uploads/posts/2013-08/1376483331_0.jpg
http://bike-crimea.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/karaimi.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600875.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600817.jpg
http://pantikapei.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/karaimy4.jpg

Vedun
02-08-14, 00:41
Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?

occult nonsense. Those territories never belonged to any "Avar Khaganate".

Goga
02-08-14, 00:59
Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East.Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.

Robert6
02-08-14, 01:33
Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.
More possibly one of the first proto-Iranian cultures was the Yaz culture(southwest Turkmenistan) and not the BMAC(BMAC is very old).
According to linguists North Pontic Scythians had west.Iranian substratum, and east.Iranian superstrate.
And there is the inscription with Luwian Hieroglyphs about Scythian King Partitava(in Saqqez Kurdestan) is in a language that is very close to modern Ossetian. http://landofkarda.blogspot.gr/2010/05/scythian-inscription.html

Goga
02-08-14, 02:15
You have got some point. Indeed, the original Scythians came most probably from Yaz. But wasn't Yaz actually proto-East Iranic, and not proto-Iranic in general? It's still uncertain to me whether proto-Iranic peoples lived around BMAC or more to the west of the Iranian Plateau. I believe that the proto-Iranic race was born when J2a1* (or even J2a*and G2a) blended with R1a, but that could happen everywhere between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau (Zagros Mountains) or the eastern parts (SouthCentral Asia). And the thing is that SouthCentral Asia is HEAVILY influenced, culturally, genetically and linguistically (ergativity, Sumerian vocabulary etc.), by folks from West Asia.....

John Doe
02-08-14, 10:35
There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
Eastern European Karaites have
6*J2,, 30%
5*E1b1b1,, 25%
4*G2a,, 20%
3*J1,, 15%
1*L2a,, 5%
1*R1b1a2,, 5%

In 1971 Academician V.P. Alekseev based on craniological parameters study of population from Khazar town Sarkel (Lower Don) came to the conclusion that the Karaites are the product of mixing of Khazars with local (Crimean) tribes (such as the Sarmatians, Sarmato-Alanians, Alans, Goths and perhaps the Greeks).

Some pictures of Karaites people http://www.agatov.com/content/view/3731/58/
http://www.religion.in.ua/uploads/posts/2013-08/1376483331_0.jpg
http://bike-crimea.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/karaimi.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600875.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories/Katalog/tataru/p1600817.jpg
http://pantikapei.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/karaimy4.jpg


Not exactly, the Karaites accept the old Testament (the old Testament includes the Torah, the Torah is simply the first 5 books of the bible) but they don't accept the Talmud.

Vedun
03-09-14, 11:34
"Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules."

Amazone is a Greek transliteration for current Ukrainian, Russian word for AМУЖЁНКA, ОМУЖЁНКA, ОМУЖЁНA; Amoženka; Omoženka, Omožena Ženščina, Možata ženička. Where A transmuted into O, like in "Agni" into Agonj and into Ogonj, Ogenj. And from Agnistaha or Agnistha (अग्निष्ठ) into Ognjišče (fireplace). Greeks were renaming many words; like Trojan Vilusha into Ilios, Venetic Trojans into Enedae, Skoloti or Sokoli into Skolotoi (falcons), Truvid into Druids, Amozhena/Amozhenka into Amazones, etc

Amazons were women who were forced into a self-preservation, when their men(husbands) were butchered by enemies; we know the story from Troy(The correct transliteration was Vilusha or Wheelusha; rounded (wheel) city). Other Trojan (amazone) women were enslaved, their men were all killed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CL4eA-2M2K4/UKf1-bpF4eI/AAAAAAAAAME/-WMX7jaaE3U/s400/barbary-slaves.jpg

They-women (ženke, žene) became "machist" (možate). When woman was married she also became "omožena" (part of man).

Amoženka - Sokolotka (Etruscan art)

http://shrani.si/f/1K/E4/4gjhZXNk/trojan.jpg

Ostoja
08-12-14, 02:42
Hello,

I see interesting discussion here about Sarmatian origin and DNA. I will try to add my knowledge in this subject although I can not present any final conclusions of my own since its to early for that. However, You might find this interesting.

Ostoja is old Polish CoA and it evolved from Sarmatian Tamga (Helmut Nickel, Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols or Princke). and as You can see on the Avtar - there is also Sarmatian Dragon. Ostoja is old Battle Cry of group of knights, its older than 800 years but we dont know when it was in use first time and what it origin from. Ostoja mean mainstay and we believe that its about a place that people can seek protection or a place where people come together, where the Standard is situated. Oldest notes about members of the clan tell about Scibor that have been widely used by members of the Clan in Medieval times. Scibor (czcic bor) means Honor Battle and oldest notes we found are from year 1174. This information could be of importance...Honor Battle...since I think there is somethiing similar in Sarmatian culture.

In order to investigate Clan origin, we run the Ostoja Clan DNA project on FTDNA - see below:

* google on Ostoja Clan FTDNA - and see results (i cant post link here since I need to write 10 posts before i can do that)

In the beginning, we thought that families are blood related to each other since around year 1400 they lived in groups very close to each other. However, the DNA tell us something else. Many of the families are blood related to each other by changing their names after properties mainly between 1450 and 1550. So for example Blociszewski in Gaj started to use surname Gajewski or Biel in Kiedrzyn started to use Kiedrzynski. There are lot of such examples and in the end we have over 200 names that are linked to Ostoja. But from the begining, before they started to use names after their properties - they where a group of knights that in most where not blood related to each other (we think ab. 30-40 families). Interesting fact is that Blociszewski and Roguski have common ancestor that lived ab. 700 years ago and that Solecki have common ancestor with both of them ab. 1500 years ago. I doubt that this is coincidence. Interesting that as late as 1400 families had so strong contact with each other. Was the Dragon heritage so strong that is survived many hundreds of years?

As You can see there is a strong group belonging to R1a-west european origin. From this group we have prominent member in Jakusz de Blociszewo (later Blociszewski) that was voivode (duke ) of Lviv year 1374 although Blociszewo is placed in Greater Poland around Poznan and Bydgoszcz. This informatkion is usefull in order to determine from which Sarmatian tribe this group origin. Very close to Blociszewo, we have property of Ilowiec and we thought that Ilowiecki family could be blood related with Blociszewski but as You can see, Ilowiecki hold haplgroup R1b and most probably (we are doing sub-tests) of German origin. Both families lived very close to each other in year 1400 which indicate strong connection between them. The allover picture is the same. Regardless blood connection, families stick together and if they moved to other area in Poland, they moved to area where other Ostoja lived.

The CoA you see is pretty close to earliest stamps we discovered. Later...the cross become a sword and the CoA lost the dragon on helmet - but original version is very clear. A cross between increscent and decrescent. We still dont know if the cross was added because of Christianity, it might refer to dynastic power, Christianity or Crusaders. But the most important is Sarmatian dragon! This lead us to a tribe that was called Royal Sarmatians and suppose to origin from Royal Scythians that was the noblemen and aristocracy...or dynasty.

You clearly see the DNA of this Sarmatian Clan and in case of Marchocki and Chrzastowski, we will do subtests since its seems that both families are of Italo-Celtic origin. More test are on the way and we will see better picture in time.

You also see the DNA of Rylski and Danielewicz (R1a-Z280-Z92), those families are long distant cousins - should be ab 1800-2000 years ago. Both families origin from Sarmatian tribe Alans. Rylski settled down in Poland but Danielewicz in Lithuania so yes - Alans moved also north. They moved north to Russia and settled down around Novgorod and Pskov. How do we know that? Because prince Boriatynski (DNA, see Russian Nobility DNA project on FTDNA) family and Danielewicz (both of Ostoja) are of Alan origin and moved in medieval times from Novgorod and Pskov to Lithuania and Belarus - its well documented. Same with prince Palecki (also Ostoja, here no DNA) family. Danielewicz seems to origin from boyar family as common ancestor with Pushkin family lived ab. 800-1000 years ago. And we can trace Pushkin family origin down to ab. 1200 - to Novgorod.

As we can see, Alans did move up to Lithuania and North West Russia. But how did they then join Ostoja Clan? Royal Sarmatians and Alans might be cousins but they Alans where not the Dragon (Draco) like Royal Sarmatians. We believe that families used similar Tamgas to Ostoja and that they in this way joined the Clan. Only other option would be adoption year 1450 but there are no records that confirm such adoption. Most likely, its about Sarmatian Tamga - and most likely similar Ostoja. Or...did those Novgorod families also belong to Sarmatian Dragons? In Polish -very specific - heraldry, many CoA with 2 moons was called Ostoja with modificaton, we have many such modifications. So everything was in same basket (sic!). But we know of course that Ostoja with modification is NOT Ostoja. Important here is the procedure...so that is why we think its same with Tamga that looked similar to Ostoja. But what Tamga was that?

More research on Tamga and more DNA should in future tell much more.

I hope that what I wrote is interesting and can add something of value to the discussion.

Best regards,
O.

LeBrok
08-12-14, 06:19
@ Ostoja. Welcome to Eupedia.

Do we have Sarmatian Y DNA to extrapolate paternal lines for Ostoja descendents?

Supposedly Alan Y hg was mainly G2, nothing more precise though.

Genetics[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alans&action=edit&section=5)]In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 12 Alanic burials on the Don River, 6 samples turned out belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 samples belonging to mtDNA I. This is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2* either

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans


You mentioned some genetic relations, very distant cousins, going back 1,500. In this time scale every Pole should be related.

Ostoja
08-12-14, 17:54
Hello Lebrok and thank You!

Well...Ostoja is clearly Sarmatian Tamga with Sarmatian Draco so naturally, we want to know the Y DNA of this Sarmatian Clan. The results so far are presented as mentioned on FTDNA, the Ostoja Clan DNA project. Based on the results, we try to match it with existing knowledge. What You see is composition of R1a (M458-L260) + R1b (italo-celtic+german) and I2a (M438) which lead us to conclusion that not only Sarmatians fight in the units with Draco standard. The Sarmatian part of Ostoja should then be R1a (458-L260) but we need more samples to do better conclusions.

Yes, You are right on Alan haplogroup being G2 but here, Western Alans will show haplogroup R1a. According to Ammianus M. that lived around year 350, Alans lived in Scythia and by the time they united with other people so they consisted of two groups that lived in different part of the Empire but both where called Alans. It means that those two groups have different YDNA.

Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280. What we see is that Sarmatian tribes have slightly different DNA although majority is of R1a. In this way we can separate Alans from other Sarmatian tribe that show M458-L260. But again, we need lot more samples to be more exact and also, DNA Technics move forward and we are able to sub-group the results in better way.

If I look at my own DNA (Z280-Z92), it match almost perfectly the rout Western Alans did down to Africa. And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate. You can see ab. 20 person with confirmed Z92 might be concidered. And Slavic origin might not be same as Sarmatian. And for 458-L260 its not even that, there are very few people in this sub-group.

Best regards,
Ostoja

arvistro
08-12-14, 22:58
Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland?
I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?

LeBrok
09-12-14, 04:26
Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland?
I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?
There might be some truth in it, that some polish noblemen came from Sarmatians. Though, after 1,500 years looking for Sarmatian paternal line of Y dna in well mixed population, without Sarmatian source DNA, is an impossible task. As well it might be just a legend, carried away by romantic people, who imagined that they belong to something great from the past.

I never could understand why people cling to their grand x 50 father, who left only 2% of DNA in them, and very mutated after so many generations, who they never knew. As well could have been a psychopathic killer. But that is just me.

LeBrok
09-12-14, 04:45
.And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate.

Best regards,
Ostoja

1,500 years means roughly 60 generations. This number gives 576 quadrillion grand parents per person. One person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 grand grand..., etc. There were never as many people on this planet, so it means that people needed to share grandparents, especially in same geographical area. My hunch is confirmed by recent scientific discovery about sharing common ancestors.


BERLIN (AP) — Europeans appear to be more closely related than previously thought.
Scientists who compared DNA samples from people in different parts of the continent found that most had common ancestors living just 1,000 years ago.
The results confirm decade-old mathematical models, but will nevertheless come as a surprise to Europeans accustomed to thinking of ancient nations composed of distinct ethnic groups like "Germans," ''Irish" or "Serbs."
"What's remarkable about this is how closely everyone is related to each other," said Graham Coop of the University of California, Davis, who co-wrote the study published Tuesday in the journal PLoS Biology.
Coop and his fellow author Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California used a database containing more than 2,250 genetic samples to look for shared DNA segments that would point to distant shared relatives.
While the number of common genetic ancestors is greater the closer people are to each other, even individuals living 2,000 miles (3,220 kilometers) apart had identical sections of DNA that can be traced back roughly to the Middle Ages.
The findings indicate that there was a steady flow of genetic material between countries as far apart as Turkey and Britain, or Poland and Portugal, even after the great population movements of the first millennium A.D. such as the Saxon and Viking invasions of Britain, and the westward drive of the Huns and Slavic peoples.
The study did find subtle regional variations. For reasons still unclear, Italians and Spaniards appear to be less closely related than most Europeans to people elsewhere on the continent.
"The analysis is pretty convincing. It comes partly from the enormous number of ancestors each one of us have," said Mark A. Jobling, a professor of genetics at the University of Leicester, England, who wasn't involved in the study.
Since the number of ancestors each person has roughly doubles with each generation, "we don't have to go too far back to find someone who features in all of our family trees," he said.
Jobling cited a scientific paper published in 2004 that went so far as to predict that every person on the planet shares ancestors who lived just 4,000 years ago.
Experts say the study's findings need to be compared with what we know about population movements in Europe and elsewhere from other fields, including archeology and linguistics.
"Although, as the authors note, the approach is inherently 'noisy' (i.e. error-prone), it still does give results for European populations that are in reasonable agreement with historical expectations," said Mark Stoneking, a professor evolutionary anthropology at the University of Leipzig, Germany, who also wasn't involved in the study. "It would be interesting to see this applied in situations where we don't have such good historical information."
Coop and Ralph said the findings might change the way Europeans think about their neighbors on a continent that has had its fair share of struggle and strife.
"The basic idea that we're all related much more recently than one might think has been around for a while, but it is not widely appreciated, and still quite surprising to many people, even scientists working in population genetics, including ourselves," they said in an email to The Associated Press. "The fact that we share all our ancestors from a time period where we recognize various ethnic identities also points at how we are like a family — we have our differences, but are all closely related."
Just don't expect news of closer family ties to prompt a surge of brotherly love in Europe or elsewhere.
"There have been many studies that we've been involved in showing that groups which are fighting each other furiously all the time are actually extremely closely genetically related. But that's never had any impact on whether they continue to fight each other," Jobling said.
"So for example Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East are extremely similar genetically, but to tell them they are genetic close relatives isn't going to change their

http://news.yahoo.com/europeans-had-common-ancestors-1-000-years-ago-210129852.html

Alan
09-12-14, 05:39
Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.

The original Scythians came probably from Northeast of the Caspian. They were pushed out by the Massagatae and moved into Pontic Steppes by driving out the local Cimmerians into Western Asia. Among those Scythians who settled on the Pontic steppes was a tribal group who became known as the "Royal Scythians". It is said by Heredotus that the Western Scythians crossed into the Pontic Steppes through Media and the Caucasus. This would explain why West Scythian has a strong West Iranic substratum. And it would also explain the obsession of Scythians with Media and their several campaigns to conquer it.

Those Royal Scythians with their King Bartatua came back and attacked Media and settled there building up their county of Sagapeni in Eastern Kurdistan/Northwest Iran. His Son Madya became the new ruler of Media.

Alan
09-12-14, 07:10
As I said in the past. It is very unlikely that the Iranoaryan groups belonged exclusively to one Haplogroup. Especially when this group was so widespred and modern descends of them have significant frequencies in allot of Haplogroups. The reason why some Iranoaryan groups are more dominated by one Haplogroup while other more diverse is most probably because of founder effect. Imagine IndoIranian groups spreading from their homeland in every direction. Through Bottleneck effect. Some groups might end up beeing dominant in only one or two Haplogroups while some other have the full package of yDNA diversity.

As example the region once settled by the Dahae has very high levels of Haplogroup R1b*, the same is the case for some regions of Western Iranian Groups. Than we have the Alans and their descends the Ossetians and Jasz from Hungary who are dominant in Haplogroup G2* but also have some R1b* and I*. The people of the former regions of Bactria, Sogdia, Massagatae and Saka(east Scythians) are dominant by Haplogroup R1a* (up to 50%) but have also significant frequency of other Haplogroups as J2a, R2*, Q1b, G*, L*, C* and some H-M69*. Regions of what was once Western Scythia/Cimmeria are dominant by Haplogroup such as R1a*, R1b*, I2a*, G2a and J*, N* and C*.
And when it comes to West Iranian Groups you have a whole varity of significant Haplogroups. In Northwest Iranians such as various subclades of R1a*, R1b*/R2a*, J2a/J1b, G*, I* T*, L2*, Q1b. And among Southwest Iranians the same just with less R1b and add some H-M69*.

If Haplogroups are as old as 30000 years, I can't think of any ethno-linguistic group beeing exclusively dominant in one Haplogroup. So no suprise to find out that some Sarmatian tribes such as the Alans and Jazyges were more dominant by Haplogroup G2a*, R1b*, while other like the Roxalani, Aorsi, Siraces probably by Haplogroup R1a* and J2a*.

Alan
09-12-14, 07:29
Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280.


As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.

arvistro
09-12-14, 11:18
I think if Ostoja clan has ~ same haplo % as modern Poland then there are two options:
a) Sarmats had same haplo % as modern Poland
b) Ostoja was a romantic banner for folk that came of random Polish nobles.

There are similar Legends. Lithuanian and Russian Princes believed they came from brother of Caesar Augustus who arrived to Prussia :)

Ostoja
09-12-14, 14:54
Lebrok,

Yeah, its like in six degree of separation :) But here I think study You presented have nothing to do with the Clans and I believe that it is based on too little and to old samples, I personally doubt those conclusions, for me its more like indication. If You look at the DNA of several Clans You will very seldom see any relation closer than 800 years between any of Clan members and anyone else in the database on FTDNA or ysearch.org. So clearly, the publication You presented does not apply on Clans - 1500 years is almost nothing. Why dont You check several projects on FTDNA to see that more clearly?

It have been stated that Sarmatian heritage of Polish nobility is romantic nonsense but past 2 years picture have changed and researchers now claim that it is partly true. What we do is correcting huge amount of errors in history books and DNA projects help us to make those corrections. Nobility by itself is completely of no interest. We just wish to come closer to the truth. Today - Im sorry to say that - most historians with phd and most professors in Poland are presenting crap. So basically, you need to read all this crap for ab. 20 years and just to come to the conclusion that You need to start over and start with translating sources. You can easily translate french vulgar Latin in different way. Researching Clans is interesting because those are more "closed" societies. We researched Awdaniec (Abdank) clan since scholars thought that this Clan might origin from Scandinavia. The DNA project of this Clan failed to confirm that. We also are waiting for the DNA of Piast dynasty - this is very interesting issue and the results might make revolution in the way to see what really happened 1000 years ago on Polish ground. Another interesting DNA project is of Bajor claiming that most of princely families from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine that clam Rurikid origin is of haplogroup N. Almost all researchers refer to the study of Bajor but again, this project failed to point on haplogroup N and we can only confirm 50% haplogroup N and 50% R1a so clearly we cant come to any conclusion jet.

Ostoja
09-12-14, 15:07
Furtheremore, counting Clan population past 1000 years we can ruffly count on 40 families in Ostoja that developed slightly over 150 ancient lines and of them 60 are extinct so in Ostoja we are talking about max. 1000 members - that is only 25 times more Clan members in 1000 year or ab. 40 generations. Same should apply on other Clans.

As mensioned earlier, researching Clans give some value since they are more "closed societies" and in this way I think it is possible to verify DNA of Sarmatians. The mix You talk about Lebrok refer to mtDNA, not Y-DNA. Here we talk about ruffly 1 mutation in 100 years in specific markers.

Arvistro - the DNA of different Clans differ. Some Clans show closer connection and some differ a lot. Difference between Ostoja and Adwaniec is significant. We believe that R1a in Adwaniec is mistake. I give you example. In the property of Rogusze in north Masovia there where 2 families sharing a village. Both families apply suraname Roguski around year 1500. One family was from the clan Ostoja and one of clan Adwaniec. In sources we see only Adwanbiec in Roguski family but DNA results showed not just R1a but also match Blociszewski family that belong to Ostoja. Common ancestor lived 700 years ago and it is specific markers that match and that give us confidence in the results. 700 years is pretty close match when talking about Clans. Without the DNA tests, it would be impossible to separate those families. We therefore think that the DNA of Clans will differ more the more samples we have.

And no, Ostoja is not any romantic banner of different noble, it would be waste of time to research fairy tells :) Every element in Ostoja CoA is Sarmatian. Only thing we still cant establish is if the Cross is of Christian origin or of Sarmatian.

Ostoja
09-12-14, 15:33
Alan,

You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.

Ostoja
09-12-14, 16:16
When looking at the DNA results of Ostoja clan members, some of them can not be considered in the research of Sarmatian origin. So far we have following:

4 persons showing M458-L260 (R1a)
3 persons showing I2a2
2 persons showing R-M269 (R1b)
1 person showing R-U106 (R1b)

This is composition of the Clan right now if we consider oldest lines and not adopted or where we believe DNA is not broken. The east part of the Clan is not considered right now. We have far to little DNA samples to make conclusions but we have indication that M458-L260 might be of Sarmatian tribe origin since families in this group are one of the leading in the Clan and well documented. The research lead us to Royal Sarmatians. Some scholars tell that Royal Sarmatians origin from Royal Scythians but other tell that they are minor Sarmatian tribe. No clue what is more correct. Only thing we know for sure is that Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and that they used Draco standard. The rest we have to research and I think that DNA project will in time give us the key we search.

Some information I present might be of interest for You since its based on very solid sources. Also, Your input and knowledge is interesting for me. Soon I will be able to add links so it will be easier for me to present interesting sources.

arvistro
09-12-14, 22:36
When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos:) to avoid circle logic.

M458 as Sarmats, now that is interesting idea. It is different enough and at common level with Z280 and their Germanic brother (forgot name).

Mainstream opinion currently links m458 and i2 to Slavic expansions. Sarmats were supposed to be Iranic folk. Slavs have some Iranic influences - "Bog", but is it enough to believe m458 was Sarmatian marker before 500? Scyths were z93, could Sarmats be m458? I havent read much on that subj, so sorry if speak non-sense. Hope someone corrects me.

Btw, from antique authors is it known which archeo cultures were in those places East of Vistula where they find Sarmats?

Robert6
09-12-14, 22:56
As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.
There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet

Alan
10-12-14, 00:24
There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet

There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture

Alan
10-12-14, 00:26
Alan,

You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.

You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

Robert6
10-12-14, 00:49
There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture
Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay

Alan
10-12-14, 02:44
Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay

As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*.

Also Andronovo, which is seen as Scythian culture was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html

LeBrok
10-12-14, 08:15
You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them. I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.

Robert6
10-12-14, 09:37
As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*.

Also Andronovo culture connected to Scythians was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/ancient-dna-from-bronze-age-altai.html

The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.

Alan
10-12-14, 15:37
The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.

Pzayrk is clearly identified as Scythian. proven by typical West Eurasian y as well mtDNA which Mongols lack (HV1, HV2 and N1a) though more and more admixed with some of the native mongols. Bronze Age Altai samples are from West Mongolia, which just a few centuries later became part of the pazyrk culture.

Andronovo is definitely one culture or to be more exact, a horizont of few related cultures.

I have heard that there was one Haplogroup C* additional to R1a in Andronovo. It was thought to be East Eurasian but today we know C* is much more than just East or West Eurasian. At the beginning Andronovo was almost completely West Eurasian but with time it became more mixed in the East with East Eurasian mtDNA. The only thing this proofs is that Andronovo with time absorbed some neighboring DNA.


Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a) Y-chromosome haplogroup and one the haplogroup C-M130 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130_%28Y-DNA%29) (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.
90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#cite_note-18)
A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#cite_note-19)



If we agree that C-M130 is just Eurasian . Than we come to only one East Eurasian mtDNA. That is on the usual range of other Indo_Iranian groups.

Ostoja
10-12-14, 16:03
When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos:) to avoid circle logic.

Everything is possible, also roman mercenaries with haplo R1a as we know that Sarmatian joined roman legions. See Roxolani, Yazygz and the cataphracts.

There is no fake in the Ostoja DNA projet but we have doubts about some of memebrs like the one with N1c - its possible that the DNA line is broken here. In other cases, we know that some of people tested origin from families that where co opted to the Clan in medieval times so I dont include them in this research. I therefore listed 10 results that we are very sure about and where the line is not broken. We will soon have more samples to examine. I think that m458 is indication and if we will see more of it in future tests, we could maybe establish something in the future.

Robert6
10-12-14, 16:17
Alan
The Pazyryk people are untested for Y-dna
Pazyryk culture is a mix of Locals and plus Iranian influence(from N.Iran-Baktria) possibly from Massagetae or other Iranian tribe.


The central Siberia (Krasnoyarskiy Kray) is the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont, and only the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont is tested. In Andronovo horizont they are all Anthropologically different in the west they were mostly Dolichocephalic in the east they were mostly Mesocephalic and Brachycephalic.

Ostoja
10-12-14, 16:30
I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.

It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes. I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it. What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject. You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt.

LeBrok
10-12-14, 19:05
It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes. With all due respect, your definition of Common Knowledge must be way different than the common definition suggests.


I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it. How can it be a common knowledge without even one good publication about this?




What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject. Just present Sarmatian DNA and you have the case. Right now what you have are common polish uniparental DNA lines in your clan.


You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt. All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans? We know they are not. Same could have happen with adaptation of Sarmatian dragon. Dragon was a symbol of powerful Sarmatians, so why not adopt it?

Having said that, there is still possibility that some polish clans came from Sarmatian genetic lines. However after so many generation you won't find much of genetic connection to the founders. With more members you might have found something statistically significant, but not with 10 members.

Ostoja
10-12-14, 19:39
I write what i hear from people that are researching Sarmatian origin. I think its to early for publication but I know that one is on the way.

Yes, I will soon try to present some more interesting information and if its possible also add DNA to it. Sarmatian dragon was adopted by Bosporan Kingdom and by Roman legions so of course, it could be adopted. However, as earlier mentioned - Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga. In this case, Sarmatians used Sarmatian dragon - its simple.

I dont understand why I can not find genetic connection with Sarmatian tribes? If You talk about mtDNA yes, its to much mixed but when talking about Y-DNA You can in simple way determine who You are blood related to up to 1500 years back in time in more exact way. I know what families I have common ancestor with 1400-1500 years ago. More back in time we are not sure about correct century, thats all. But it does not mean that we can not go 2000 back in time and predict. If You read specific markers in test that consist of at least 67 markers, it is sometimes possible to make correct prediction and DNA science is moving very quickly forward. With Big-Y test we will soon be able to do new subgroups.

Yes, its correct that 10 tests are far to little, thats why I write about indications but its of course to little to draw any conclusions. We will have more interesting DNA results incoming soon to add to what we have. But Ostoja is not the only DNA project, there are several other and much bigger so this will also help Ostoja DNA project. The DNA test show us also that in some cases, two families with common ancestor that for example lived 1200 years back in time entered two different Clans. In that way, we have a lot more than 10 samples to investigate.

If we have DNA samples of for ex. Roxolani and Yazyges, we will soon be able perfectly match it with people that have same DNA subgroup. We just need to get those sub-groups ready, its just question of time and we will know for sure.

Alan
10-12-14, 20:37
All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans?
.

Hmm I would not be sure about that. the Eagle is one of the most symbolic animals among Iranic speaking tribes and I have heard rumors that the Eagle was brought to Germanic people by contact with Sarmatians.

Ostoja
11-12-14, 00:42
You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

Seems that G2 is dominant but as You said, there are also less significant lineages. We have indications that Iazyges could have haplo I2a2a (M223) dinaric. Dont know the Roxolani or Aorsi DNA. It seems that the DNA of different Sarmatian tribes differ. We should in time know more when more Big-Y tests are done. There are already new subclades. Interesting to see if some Sarmatian tribes really origin from Scythians, then we should have dominating haplo R1a.

Goga
11-12-14, 01:16
Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some East Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.

Ostoja
11-12-14, 21:50
Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some East Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.

True, that is why its interesting to investigate Clans, some of them could preserve the original DNA as they where ruling Class and could be less mixed with others. Also, its more likely that we find unbroken DNA line.

Not sure about Iranian heritage though, I cant see any evidence of that excet sources that claim that Scythians and Sarmatian speak Iranian language. Haplogroup R1a is one of the dominating in Iran. This article is very well sourced and is FA art so we could presume that there is no rubbish there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

In point 6 - genetics, there are interesting information. Read about R1a-M198. Also, I see nothing about haplo I2a2 and R-I223 suppose to be of the Iazyges. So Alans and Iazyges dont mach - the DNA of Sythians does since its Z93. But it is also stated that this tribe did not origin from Iran.

It could also be of interest to examine Aorsi tribe which was the biggest Sarmatian tribe. Could this tribe show Z93 as Scythians? Not sure about that. According to several historians, Antes people origin from Aorsi and claim that Aorsi was spelled Antsai, later Antae and finally Halans, Polans. The tribes of Aorsi, Royal Samratians and Sirace - all of them used Tamga signs and some of those tamgas is believed to have later transformed to Polish CoA. Brajaczewski could prove that Antes in greek is Polans in slavic language. There is still a world "polanka" that refer to woman hero although in modern Polish its now "bohater" that evolved from turkish "bagadyr".

The Ostoja CoA clearly evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and the dragon is also Sarmatian dragon. So in that way, further reaserch on the DNA of Ostoja Clan might give us some more interesting indications in the future regarding the DNA of Sarmatian tribe that is called Royal Sarmatians. Royal Sarmatians is relatively little Sarmatian tribe but of many reasons very interesting to investigate.

arvistro
12-12-14, 09:46
Antsai, Antai - now that is lovely for Lithuanian plural grammar :)
In modern Slavic it would be spelled something like Vutj (modern city Lodz), after all the de-nasalisations and prothesys thingy believed in-between proto-Balto-Slavic and Slavic. At least that is my take on reading through developments on Common Slavic from wiki. Have not consulted with pro-linguist there, also it is only true if we believe proto-Balto-Slavic/early proto-Slavic was spoken around at times of Anti (or at least that de-nasalisation happened late, which actually did happen late, since in Kiev Rus times, there was a ruler attested as Swentoslav by Greeks, which only in later Slavic development became Svjatoslav). en-ya change, similarly an-o-u.

Kardu
19-09-15, 12:02
New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and Alans7420

Alan
19-09-15, 12:12
New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and Alans7420



There we have it. Finally a prove, typical Iranic y and mtDNA. I knew it and said it, impossible that Iranic groups were dominated by just one Haplogroup. So R1a, J1, J2 and G found there. And I am pretty sure with more sampling, R1b, I and some L,T and R2 will also appear.

Goga
19-09-15, 14:15
New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and Alans7420

Nice! This is a prove for me that Iranic folks evolved from Mitanni, Kassites and other ancient proto-Iranics related to the Sumerians. One part went straight to Northern Caucasus and became known as Sarmatians. Second part went to BMAC first and became known as Eastern Iranic tribes. Later on some of those Eastern Iranic tribes (Parthians, Sogdians, Bactrians, Saka, Scythians) migrated out of BMAC into the Steppes.

But the URHEIMAT of the Iranic people is eventually Northwest Iranian Plateau (Zagros/Kurdistan).

Goga
19-09-15, 14:35
Iranid People (Aryans) who stayed in their own homeland (URHEIMAT) became known as the Medes (Umman Manda). The Medes remained the purest (Iranoid) of all Iranic tribes, because they didn't mixed much with Mongoloid & Europoid folks in the Steppes. Of all modern populations Kurds are the closest people to the ancient Iranid folks. Kurds are mostly descendants of the mighty Medes. Like Kurds, the Medes were NorthWest Iranid folks. Also, Kurdish language is the closest language to the ancient Iranic (language of the ancient Iranid people). It has still that ancient Iranic ergativity construction, most archaic ...

F117stealth
02-02-16, 16:00
Another interesting DNA project is of Bajor claiming that most of princely families from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine that clam Rurikid origin is of haplogroup N. Almost all researchers refer to the study of Bajor but again, this project failed to point on haplogroup N and we can only confirm 50% haplogroup N and 50% R1a so clearly we cant come to any conclusion jet.

So much information has been gained since your post and now I guess nobody from genetic world would doubt about N haplogroup origin of Rurikids.

Goga
06-03-16, 14:08
There we have it. Finally a prove, typical Iranic y and mtDNA. I knew it and said it, impossible that Iranic groups were dominated by just one Haplogroup. So R1a, J1, J2 and G found there. And I am pretty sure with more sampling, R1b, I and some L,T and R2 will also appear.


Iranid People (Aryans) who stayed in their own homeland (URHEIMAT) became known as the Medes (Umman Manda). The Medes remained the purest (Iranoid) of all Iranic tribes, because they didn't mixed much with Mongoloid & Europoid folks in the Steppes. Of all modern populations Kurds are the closest people to the ancient Iranid folks. Kurds are mostly descendants of the mighty Medes. Like Kurds, the Medes were NorthWest Iranid folks. Also, Kurdish language is the closest language to the ancient Iranic (language of the ancient Iranid people). It has still that ancient Iranic ergativity construction, most archaic ...


Do they have auDNA of those J1 of those Sarmatians? I guess they would have lot's of the Steppes ancestry too, since they have been found in the Steppes, where I suppose they're heavily mixed with the locals. But hey would still have some of their original Iranid/Aryan DNA preserved I guess...


Why is nobody talking about those J1 Sarmatians anymore???

XipeTotek
28-11-17, 13:17
i think scythians are ancestors of the turkic peoples. scythians mainly hablogroup must be r1a. r1a is first turkic peoples hablogroup and today have most r1a hablogroups with the central asian turkic peoples.(higher than slav) turks are mixed with mongoloid/amerindians/caucasoid everybody knows it. and first turkic ancesters have more white and caucasoid later they are more relationship with mongoloid and amerindian peoples. and huns/turks going be created. but i cant understand why turkic language different from indo-european languages.

LeBrok
28-11-17, 18:12
i think scythians are ancestors of the turkic peoples. scythians mainly hablogroup must be r1a. r1a is first turkic peoples hablogroup and today have most r1a hablogroups with the central asian turkic peoples.(higher than slav) turks are mixed with mongoloid/amerindians/caucasoid everybody knows it. and first turkic ancesters have more white and caucasoid later they are more relationship with mongoloid and amerindian peoples. and huns/turks going be created. but i cant understand why turkic language different from indo-european languages.
We have DNA of Scythians and they don't look like Turks/Mongolians steppe nomads, which came to Turkey/Anatolia.

XipeTotek
06-02-18, 09:10
first turkic peoples come from amerindian Q hablogroup. later we mixed with R1a scythians and mongolian C hablogroup peoples.and today mostly R1a hablogroup peoples are turkic. look at altaians and kyrgyz peoples. and slav peoples have r1a too bot not so much like turkic people.turkic and slavic people have same ancestors come from scythians. but turkic people firstly main group are amerindians. and we get languages from them. and slavic peoples get language from scythians.scythians people not only 1 group they are have so many ethnich and languages. i think scythians are not only about slavic or iranians or turkics. they are ancestors of all central asian origin peoples. like a hunnic empire.

if you read about scandinavian viking mythologies. you can see odin/woden come from tyrkland with asian peoples. they are scythians.

howyesno
07-02-18, 13:30
Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia


It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today.
http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20170106021747/http://www.nas.gov.uk/downloads/declarationArbroath.pdf

Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Illyrian_Tribes_%28English%29.svg,
in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Greek_and_Phoenician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Penin sula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic): Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....

XipeTotek
01-04-18, 00:39
Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.
I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.
If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.
So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were:
mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.
What are your thoughts about these folks?

brothers scythians from turkic land of central asia. we can clearly see they life style come from common ancestor also genetic(r1a have most on the altai turks on the world, and i think they come from scythians.) i think they are tribe of the central asian turkic/hunnic/mongol/east and west iranian peoples. and i dont think they speak one common language. this area make always tribal federation empire like hunnic. so why today some peoples say clearly they are iranic or europeans say we are scythians and turks not so absurd. finally i think they are come from mostly r1a and ancestor of turks sogdian and east iranian.
scythians are ancestor of west iranian and turkic common peoples. and i think they dont have a common one language.

PabijanBrzeski
19-06-18, 06:19
I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

Polska
19-06-18, 14:03
That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.

Wonomyro
19-06-18, 14:04
Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

That is very intersting. Could you pls. give us some links.

hrvat22
19-06-18, 18:55
I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

For now we do not have migration of R1a peoples from Iran, India or that direction to Europe except Scythian R1a-Z93 but they come later.


The history of the Slavic languages stretches over 3,000 years, from the point at which the ancestral Proto-Balto-Slavic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic) language broke up (c. 1500 BC) into the modern-day Slavic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages) which are today natively spoken in Eastern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe), Central (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) and Southeastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe) as well as parts of North Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Asia) and Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages



Vedic Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit) and tracing its linguistic ancestry back to Proto-Indo-Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranian_language) and Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

Migration of R1a peoples.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

This for now means that Indo-European language could only come from the Russian steppes to India, Iran and that area. This is if we look at Slavic language and its similarity to Sanskrit.


For nearly 2,000 years, Sanskrit was the language of a cultural order that exerted influence across South Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia), Inner Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Asia), Southeast Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia),

As far as I can see, migration of R1b people from that direction exist but they come to Europe before Sanskrit being mentioned and Slavs were probably speaking Slavic at that time. So it's my opinion that Sanskrit comes from the Russian steppes to India and that area.
Which would mean that Slavic language is older than Sanskrit and that same language is mix between old Slavic language and languages in that area.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg


Indo-European migration is also seen here, everything goes from Yamnaya culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-European_migrations.gif


The Yamna people or Yamnaya culture(traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture) was a late Copper Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Age) to early Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age)culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of the region between the Southern Bug (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Bug), Dniester (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniester) and Ural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_(river)) rivers (the Pontic steppe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_steppe)), dating to 3300–2600 BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

3300–2600 BC and Yamnaya culture is time before Sanskrit is mentioned and probably in that area of Yamnaya culture they speaks some old archaic Slavic language. In migration map of haplogroup R1a it can be seen that Indo-Aryans come to India and that area 1700 BC with mutation L657 and probably that tribe brings Slavic words to Sanskirt.


As far as the influence of Scythians is concerned, I think that they brought some old Slavic word to Europe which some Slavs had previously brought to India, Iran and Sanskirt.




The Scythians first appeared in the historical record in the 8th century BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

Sile
19-06-18, 19:36
Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia


http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20170106021747/http://www.nas.gov.uk/downloads/declarationArbroath.pdf

Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Illyrian_Tribes_%28English%29.svg,
in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Greek_and_Phoenician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Penin sula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic): Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....

(Postquam vero Theodosius amator pacis generisque Gothorum rebus excessit humanis coeperuntque eius filii utramque rem publicam luxuriose viventes adnihilare auxiliariisque suis, id est Gothis, consueta dona subtrahere, mox Gothis fastidium eorum increvit, verentesque, ne longa pace eorum resolveretur fortitudo, ordinato super se rege Halarico, cui erat post Amalos secunda nobilitas Balthorumque ex genere origo mirifica, qui dudum ob audacia virtutis Baltha, id est audax, nomen inter suos acceperat. Mox ergo antefatus Halaricus creatus est rex, cum suis deliberans suasit eos suo labore quaerere regna quam alienis per otium subiacere, et sumpto exercitu per Pannonias Stilicone et Aureliano consulibus et per Sirmium dextroque latere quasi viris vacuam intravit Italiam nulloque penitus obsistente ad pontem applicavit Candidiani, qui tertio miliario ab urbe aberat regia Ravennate. Quae urbs inter paludes et pelago interque Padi fluenta unius tantum patet accessu, cuius dudum possessores, ut tradunt maiores, ainetoi,* id est laudabiles, dicebantur.)


Thus, Ravenna is described in Getica as founded by a people called Ainetoi – the name of those people, it is said, meant the “brave ones”. Of course, Ravenna is also very close to Venezia .


So, in the simplest of terms it would seem that the Goths’ rampage resulted in the conquest of the Veneti on the Baltic and, possibly drove, at least some of them, the newly anointed “Antes” and “Slavs” south. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that, in subsequent passages about the Goths and in the works of Procopius, the Veneti are no longer discussed (except perhaps indirectly via the name of Vinitharius). Instead, the focus is on the Byzantine borders (not northern Scythia) and, consequently, on the Antes and the Slavs – not the Veneti.

But what about the Sporoi? That name seems to suggest a “multitude” or “largeness” as per modern Slavic language. It should not take a Mensa member to note that Jordanes observes on more than one occasion (on two in fact!) that the Veneti were a “populous race” (Getica 5) that was “strong in numbers” (Getica 23). This would seem to connect the Sporoi with the Veneti.[3] Further, something that has not been noted is the similarity of the name s-Poroi to the word Poruse or, Prussians. The “s” or “z” in most Slavic languages means “from”. The Prussians were known to the Roman cartographers (see Ptolemy) as either being part of or living next to the Veneti.

The Baltic Veneti/Venedi became the Warmians of Old Prussia eventually to be eliminated in the 13th century by the teutons..............they have nothing to do with Pannonians

Dibran
18-07-18, 17:47
Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts....
myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia


http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20170106021747/http://www.nas.gov.uk/downloads/declarationArbroath.pdf

Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in Albania we find tribe name Chelidones (Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Illyrian_Tribes_%28English%29.svg,
in Spain we find tribal name Caladuni (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Greek_and_Phoenician_Colonies_in_The_Iberian_Penin sula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name Caledones or Caledonii; Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Καληδώνες, Kalēdōnes) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic): Albannaich while Scotland is Alba.

thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link
Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....

Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.

I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din.

Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed.

The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs.

I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae.

Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians.

Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs.

Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars.

They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them.

They already had adopted Slavic as a lingua Franca before entering the Balkans, so it’s not out of reason that at the collapse of their power structure they largely absorbed into Slavic ethnos. Z280/I2a1b-Din are the strongest and most characteristic of the Slavic migration.

They may well be connected to Getae or in small part to late Iron Age Dacians given over lap of modern Slavic and Baltic territories.

Dibran
18-07-18, 17:51
That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.

While your clade is not common in Albanians J2b2 L283 is. Perhaps an assimilated Illyrian that went with the Roman auxiliary to Central Europe. Don’t see how it’s Sarmatian. Even though we don’t have their remains they were similar to Scythian and those remains were mostly R1a-Z93, J1, G and N for east Scythian

Sile
18-07-18, 19:58
Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.
I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din.
Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed.
The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs.
I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae.
Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians.
Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs.
Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars.
They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them.
They already had adopted Slavic as a lingua Franca before entering the Balkans, so it’s not out of reason that at the collapse of their power structure they largely absorbed into Slavic ethnos. Z280/I2a1b-Din are the strongest and most characteristic of the Slavic migration.
They may well be connected to Getae or in small part to late Iron Age Dacians given over lap of modern Slavic and Baltic territories.
thracian samples
Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis......belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b

Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis......belonged to R1b-Z2103.
Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......belonged to J2-Z7402

Guachelin
07-10-18, 06:32
I haven't post in a few years. I was under impression, due to suggestions from other members of this forum, that my YDNA was Sarmatian, because it is R-Z93, since then I've tested Big Y at FTDNA and I am R-Z93>YP5585>YP5578>BY30053>Y28816>YP5905>YP27595.

Let's disregard all after YP5578, as I know from research and YFULL when and even who was the original "bearer of that SNP.

I want to concentrate on YP5585 and YP5578.

YP5578 is unique. It virtually stands alone as to origin and time of appearance, being in the north of England (Northumbria at the time) and about the time of the returning crusaders. It also appears at the time when English castles were being rebuilt from mud, wattle and timber affairs on motte and baileys to stone castles and English steel was upgraded from the crude steel the crusaders used to the high quality of Damascus steel. And the area in which the DNA was originally centered is also a rich iron ore bearing area called Cleveland (Clifflands) in Yorkshire.

So far there are 20 men, most who have the same surname or a variation, who have tested YP5578, all have an ancestral origin in the north of England (Dane and Angle Northumbria, modern Yorkshire).

Now the kicker. There is also an Indian (subcontinent) whose DNA is YP5585. We know that the Scythians swept into the Indus Valley, the so called Aryan Invasion, and left their DNA in what is now the Brahim class, and of course converts to Islam especially in Pakistan, but I do not have an inkling as to their subclades, and subclades are important. R-Z93 is too broad, covers too much territory, too many peoples.

I have arrived at a tentative conclusion that my first English ancestor was actually a Christian Dhimmi, perhaps an expert in forging Damascus steel (the late 13th, 14th and 15th century spelling of the name was Ferror, a ferror is a maker of iron, as opposed to a smith who works iron.

He was a descendant of an Indian, who was taken captive during the Arab conquest of the Indus Valley in the 8th Century, he survived the trek over the mountains named for them, Hindu Slaughter or Hindu Kush, and was sold in a slave market, perhaps in Damascus.

As a kufr, unbeliever or infidel, and not a Peoples of the Book (Christian or Jew) he would have been given a choice to say the Shahada or die, however he was also a valuable commodity and one does not waste their property or investment, so Hindu slaves, during the reign of the Umayyad caliphate which considered Islam to be an Arab only religion, allowed or persuaded their Hindu and pagan slaves to Christianity. Conversion to Judaism required instruction and cooperation of Rabbi's, not forthcoming. Christianity required only baptism by a priest.

Life as a Christian under Islam meant living as a second class citizen and paying a poll tax (jizzyah).

Thus when the Crusaders appeared and marveled at the technology and techniques of the old Greco Persian empire as inherited by the Arabs, they were like kids in a candy shop. Enamored of their masons and forgers of steel, they wasted little time in convincing these dhimmi's to return with them to England, and the skilled dhimmi's, saw relief from paying jizzyah and living as second class citizen and eagerly boarded crusader ships for transport to Europe and England.

The transformation of Europe and England and it's climb out of the dark ages actually started with the Crusades, when the encountered the philosophy, science, technology and techniques of the old Greco Roman Persian empire as brought together and synthesized by the Arabs.

The Arabs who themselves were amazed and enthralled by the philosophy, technology, skill, medicine of the Greeks, Romans and Persians who they conquered and very much like the Christians later, were like kids in a candy shop, absorbing everything new that they found, and taking it one step further by amalgamating all, improving and enhancing such as the mathematics of al Jabr which bears his name today in albebra.

Too bad it has gone backwards in the modern era, but the same retrograde, conservative tendency is apparent in Christianity and Judaism as so called fundamentalism or fear or discomfort with modernity and progress is on the uptick. But I wander afield as I always do.

Point is that a "son" of R-Z93 apparently landed in England between 1000 and 800 ybp, by the circuitous route of India and Damascus. At least that is the idea for now.

Dibran
09-10-18, 14:34
thracian samples
Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis......belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b

Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis......belonged to R1b-Z2103.
Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......belonged to J2-Z7402

And your point being? This doesn't negate what I said. There was also a R1a-Z93 sample discovered in a Thracian from Bulgaria. Additionally, the 2 Cimmmerians tested in a recent paper were Q and R1b-Z2103(if I am not mistaken). Which furthers my point that Cimmerians were not I2a1b-Din.