PDA

View Full Version : Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.



Pages : [1] 2 3

Goga
04-09-11, 22:29
Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.

If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.

So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were:

mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.

What are your thoughts about these folks?

Taranis
04-09-11, 22:49
Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

It is true that people in Europe don't speak Iranic languages today, with possible exception of the Ossetians in the Caucasus (in fact, Ossetian is the last remaining survivor of the Scythian languages). However, I do not think that the Ossetians, with their very small population, are genetically representative of the ancient Scythians/Sarmatians. You have to consider that for a while (well, actually, many centuries!), large swathes of eastern Europe (basically all of southern Ukraine) was inhabited by Iranic tribes. There were even Iranic tribes in the eastern portions of the Pannonian basin (the Iazyges).

In my opinion, what seems likely is that most of these Sarmatians were absorbed by the Slavic peoples. This is also backed up linguistically as there are Iranic loans into Proto-Slavic. Regarding the genetic aspects, without a doubt they would have been major carriers of Haplogroup R1a. Considering the geographic area, I2a2 is also possible (not I2a1, for obvious reasons), but considering that the Haplogroup is probably native to Eastern Europe (well, at least, likely native since Neolithic times), I don't think it would be originally Scythian.

Goga
04-09-11, 23:04
Yes, but I think Scythians/Sarmatians had very much J2a too. Look at Bulgaria. Many Bulgarians (like Ukrainians) think they are descendants of these Scytho-Sarmartians. And there's 20% of J2a in Bulgaria.

Many Iranic folks in Central Asia, like Tajiks from Tajikistan have very much R1a, R2a and J2a (West ASIAN) but not so much I2a-something.
Although the have much more R1a, maybe even much more than 50%. In some areas like around their capital Dushanbe, J2a and R2a are VERY dominant too.

So I truly believe that R1a (+R2a) and West ASIAN J2a were dominant in proto-Iranic tribes.

So maybe is J2a in Eastern European not from the Neolithic farmers but from Aryan tribes from West Asia.


Thank you for your reply.

Goga
04-09-11, 23:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02HHjILa_Do

Milovan
04-09-11, 23:24
I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


The non-slavic scytho-sarmatian theory of bulgarians I believe to be 100% false. This comes from bulgarians who hate turks who do not want to admit the original bulgar tribe was of turkic origin. Either way bulgarians do have some scythian and sarmatian blood that comes from both the slavic and turkic components, as both slavs and turkic peoples all have partial scytho-sarmatian ancestry.

As for the Ossettes (Alani as they call themselves) they have absorbed much caucasus blood and traditions over time due to their location. Jaszones of hungary, the original serbs and croats (the tribes they take their names from) were also Alan tribes (Osprey publishing is a good source for this as it has been later quoted by almost all later sources). The polish also claim sarmatian ancestry, just look up "sarmatism".

As for a genetic connection to the medes I don't know. Scythians did cross the caucasus at one point warring with cimmerians, I think medes were a part of that story as well but I can't remember. I look forward to whatever you come up with though, I have a feeling it will be interesting.

Goga
04-09-11, 23:34
I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.Ok. Thank you for your input!

But how do you explaine to me that Bulgarians have more J2a than R1a?

I think that Scytho-Sarmatians in Europe mixed with the native (non IE) folks of Europe, while Scytho-Sarmatians in Central Asia mixed with the native Central Asians, while Iranic tribes from West Asia remained in West Asia and mixed with other (non-Iranic) West Asians, mostly folks from the Caucasus (Hurrians).

That's how they grew apart. Every Iranic tribe got their own separate family but they all had the same roots and came from West Asia.

Northeast European and West Asian autosomal components are very close to each other.

But Iranic (ARYAN) tribes of West Asia stayed very close to their roots and the culture of their ancestors. They preserved their Aryan language and their 'Iranic' culture.

Goga
04-09-11, 23:38
According to DODECAD Northeast European autosomal component is closer to the West Asian component than to the Southwest European component. So the North European and West Asian are the closest components to each other.

Goga
04-09-11, 23:41
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/98/123gz.jpg
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/projecting-pakistan-populations-on-west.html

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9287/345qe.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FFgv5Ekbf5s/TePJ635DfYI/AAAAAAAADyw/fCws28qg-ds/s1600/nj.png

Asturrulumbo
05-09-11, 01:47
I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures of the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.

Milovan
05-09-11, 09:25
Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline

Milovan
05-09-11, 09:30
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPoc/Tg32AhSZ3TI/AAAAAAAAAk0/EpWVqfBVc1A/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BKurd_12.png

autosomal test for Kurds

now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnrc/TgDoYbyYUMI/AAAAAAAAD18/YlPm4vCjgq4/s1600/West_Eurasian_12.png

what says "east european" is obviously R1a
"west european" is R1b
I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
"mediteranean" equates to hap I

who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.

Milovan
05-09-11, 09:59
Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON0/TgJS__AvriI/AAAAAAAAAiU/44-iorvZqS0/s1600/fst.png

what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european

Taranis
05-09-11, 10:06
I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.

Lithuania is historically very unlikely, primarily because Scythian tribes never moved this far north. Baltic tribes such as the Galindians and Sudovians inhabited the Baltic area since at least the 2nd century AD. I think that based on the historic distribution, the Scythians would have left their biggest marks in Ukraine and southern Russia.

Sile
05-09-11, 10:28
Scythians where always said to be Hunnic peoples , some say modern hungarians. I think taransis is correct
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians

besides the area is heavily infestated with N1c1

Goga
05-09-11, 11:16
Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about.


why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodlineThank you for you researchers about the Medes. And you might be right about the Bulgarians being Balkan folks.

But their biggest haplogroups are J2 and I2a, both 20%!

Goga
05-09-11, 11:17
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPoc/Tg32AhSZ3TI/AAAAAAAAAk0/EpWVqfBVc1A/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BKurd_12.png

autosomal test for Kurds

now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnrc/TgDoYbyYUMI/AAAAAAAAD18/YlPm4vCjgq4/s1600/West_Eurasian_12.png

what says "east european" is obviously R1a
"west european" is R1b
I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
"mediteranean" equates to hap I

who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.Long time I thought that J2 was somehow connected to the Semites too. But I think that I was wrong. And I think that you are wrong too. Georgians are 0.5% Southwest Asian, while they have 24.5% J2, 12% J1 and 4.5 E. They're 72.3 % West Asian.

So J2 and the oldest sub clades of J1 are only and MUST be West Asian.

Southwest Asian in Kurds is mainly because of Semitic sub clades of J1 and E, mainly from the Assyrians (and their kinsmen), but also from the Greeks and Arabs.

E and some sub clades of J1 are Semitic!

Goga
05-09-11, 11:24
Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON0/TgJS__AvriI/AAAAAAAAAiU/44-iorvZqS0/s1600/fst.png

what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west europeanLike I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.

Goga
05-09-11, 11:30
The modern Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!

Scythians were EurASIAN. They were semi-nomands and lived both in Europe AND Asia. Like the Medes, who were semi-nomands too. When they left Kurdistan it was free, but when they tried to enter it again, it was already populated/occupied by the Assryians. That's why they destroyed the Assyrians together with the Scythians.

I think they fought always together with the Scythians because they shared the same roots. They (Scythians and Medes) fought never against each other!

They fought together against the Assyrians, Greeks etc. The Medes and Scythians were always together (like the USA & the UK)....

Goga
05-09-11, 11:48
I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures especially the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.
Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).

Goga
05-09-11, 11:52
And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.

spongetaro
05-09-11, 12:05
The modern Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!

There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.

spongetaro
05-09-11, 12:08
And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.

J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.

Goga
05-09-11, 16:20
There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.Yes, I do also believe that J2a predates. Iranic and Caucasian peoples.

J2a is West Asian, and that's why I think that West Asian Iranic folks like Kurds and Ossetians have 2 kind of J2a in them. 1 kind from Caucasian people and 1 from kind Iranic people.
This starting point justifies my thoughts that proto-Iranic (Aryan) people were from West Asia.

But I do also believe that J2a was an integral part of the ancient Iranic people too. There is J2a in Iranic speaking people in Central Asia, like Tajikistan. And there is even very much J2a among Brahmin cast in India!

I believe it's a modern myth to think that Scythians (and ancient Iranic people) were only R1a people. They found some R1a remnants of these tribes, true. But this doesn't mean they couldn't be also something else. It doesn't make any sense that a nation has only 1 haplogroup.
This would mean that Central Asians like Tajiks are more Iranic than Kurds are. Like some Iranic folks in Central Asia think. This is absolutely nonsense!

So I looked further and discovered that all Iranic speaking people share 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a.This is how I did come to the conclusion that the Scythians might be R1a, J2a and R2a folks too.


J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.Thank you very much for this info. It's very interesting. But maybe those skulls were E or even I2a. Because Irano-Nordoid (Nordic-Iranian) and Caucasian skulls are 'bigger'/longer.

Goga
05-09-11, 16:40
This autosomal dodecad graph is very recent and up to date. It's from June 4 2011!
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/98/123gz.jpg
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/projecting-pakistan-populations-on-west.html

Knovas
05-09-11, 17:23
Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only 0.044.

The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
The distance between East Europe and West Asia = 0.055

The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
The distance between West Europe and West Asia = 0.048

The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.
You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.

I personally think Dienekes' should named Mediterranean in a different way (as for example Paleolithic European) to avoid this problem...very obvious while checking the distances. Or just separating Southern Europe in two diferentiated regions, the same as Northern Europe (Southwest and Southeast Europe).

Goga
05-09-11, 17:36
You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.Yes. Maybe it's true. I do believe this is due big parts of the Southwest Asia component are from West Asia.
Southwest Asian components are J1, E and maybe T. J1 is from IJ . And the Archaic haplogorup IJ is from West Asia. From IJ came I1, I2, J1 and J2. Hg. J1 connects Southwest Asia and West Asia.

However the closest component to West Asia is West Europe. The distance between Soutwest Asian and West Asia is 0.054, while the distance between West Asian and West European is only 0.048. West Europeans are the closest folks to West Asia.

According to this the closest components to Mediterranean are East European and West Asian, both 0.056! West Asian is closer to Mediterranean than West European is (0.058).

Knovas
05-09-11, 17:48
Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the components as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich components refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.

Goga
05-09-11, 17:56
Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the componennts as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich componenets refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.I do agree with you. It's just a name. But Southwest Asian and Mediterranean components share hg. E together. Most Arabs (Semites) or Arabic speakers are dominant : Semitic J1 and E ! Hg. E is both a Mediterranean and Soutwest Asian haplogroup, but it's origin is somewhere in Africa!

Origin of IJ is in West Asia
Origin of R is in Central Asian or maybe even West Asia too
Origin of E is in Afria

Btw. I think that hg. E has nothing to do with the Scythians / ancient Aryans (Iranic folks). But maybe I'm wrong.

Alan
05-09-11, 18:10
First of all, it is out of question that Sarmartians-Scythians were from baltic area or belonged mainly to North European component. Their original homeland was between the Caspian and Aral See(Andronovo). This Region is high in West Asian and strong North European too. North East European peaks up in the baltic and has expanded later more south. It is delusional to believe that Baltic People or the "baltic Gene" has in anyway contact to the Scythians or Sarmatians. We only know about Scythians that they had much R1a* but don´t know this about Sarmatians. Even if Sarmatians are partly descend of Scythians still they were other People. Maybe the Sarmatians were more G than R1a*. Who knows?
The domination of what is today Ukraine was based on some Warriors which moved from East and controlled the former Cimmerian Regions. We can assume that todays Ukrainians and some South Russians have absorbed Scythian and Sarmatians but at the same time we know that during the Soviet time, many Slavs from further North were settled in Ukraine. Connecting Slavs to Scythians just because of much R1a* among them is as logical as saying the Italic tribes are up to 50% descend of Germanic tribes because of the high R1b* found among them. Both Iranic as well Slavic people belong to the Satem group of Indo Europeans and it is understandable that they share more similarities as to other Indo Europeans. However similarities don´t mean they were the same.

About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aras See into the Steppes further North.

Knovas
05-09-11, 20:04
Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.

The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.

Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.

Goga
05-09-11, 21:25
Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.

The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.

Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.Georgians are not the same as Armenians.

There's some portion of E in West Asian because of the Greeks. Part of West Asia belonged to the (East) Roman Empire. Even before that, Alexander the Great was in West Asia. Also Mitanni were allies of the the ancient Egypt for some time. Greeks loved Egyptians and imported the 'African' to Europe, while Mitanni & Kassites imported 'African' E to West Asia. Also the Jews attributed to this process very much too.

But E is still from Africa and it is an African lineage. Who am I to rob and deny the African influence in the Mediterranean, and and to the lesser extent Europe and Asia.

Every time when I hear hg. 'E' I will always accredit and merit that to the Africans. Doesn't matter for me how much it is in other parts of the world. I'm not a hypocrite...

Goga
05-09-11, 21:35
About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aral See into the Steppes further North.True, the Assyrians (Akkadians) were annihilated by the Medes and Scythians. That was 612 BCE. Everybody is talking about a coalition between the Medes and Chaldeans, but I believe that Scythians helped their kinsmen very much.

Bodin
06-09-11, 02:35
And who say Scythians and Sarmatians were same nation ? Herodotus say Saramatians are descendants of Scyths and Amazones. But do you believe Amazones egzisted ? Even Herodotus clearly separate Sarmatians and Scythians - by teritory , languague( he say it is spoiled Scythian wich only mean they both speacked IE -Iranian languague- in that times there wa not such big diference betwen IE languagues) , customs,...
I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while Diodorus ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as Sarmathians -Solar Medes.
All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups .
And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .
Also it is quite posible that some of J2 in Balkans came with Thracians ( came from Asia Minor), Turks( Ottoman-Osmanli) , Neolithic farmers and Phoenicians and some with Sarmathian nations of Serbs , Croats and Bulgars .
If somebody won to see why I think they are Sarmathian go to tread Sarmathians , Serbs , Croats and I2a2 and read my posts .There you will also find how most of I2a2 get were is it now.

Bodin
06-09-11, 02:40
And yes some of Scythian tribes get to Baltic - Neuri ( mentioned by Herodotus like Scythian nation) , there is some evidence that sugest that Neuri are ancestors of today Balts ( river Nevra , few cities with simillar names , ... ). They could also be same with Venedi .

Bodin
06-09-11, 03:09
Also I wasnt able to provide valid data about I2a2-Din in aeria around Caucasus where Sarmathians originaly dweled previous to they move to west( I allready posted data for Ossetians - north 32% of I2a2-Din and south 13% ). And now there it is :
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Chuvash ( on Caucasus ) : R1b 12% , R1a 18% , I2a2 24% ,N1c 18% , E1b1b 6% , J 6% , G 18%
Baskhirs R1b 47% , R1a 26% , I2a2 4% ,N1c 17% , others 10%

other : C , F* , N* , Q , R2
All of this nations are Turkic ( Altai ) speacking . And they could be conected with Sarmathians that stayed in Hunic empire - Roxolans (bright Alans ) . One part of Roxolans acording to some Roman sources took Hunic languague and way of life , and they were called Saraguri

Asturrulumbo
06-09-11, 05:11
Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).

I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
Scythians are in orange

Goga
06-09-11, 17:35
I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
Scythians are in orangeYes, I know this map. But I'm talking about the OLDER Scythians!

this map is from 100 BCE, while the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

Goga
06-09-11, 17:53
I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while Diodorus ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as Sarmathians -Solar Medes.
All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups .
And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .
Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.

Goga
06-09-11, 18:03
Were Kassites that live in the Mesopotamia 1700 - 1000? BCE related to or even the same as Scythians / Saka ? Notice that after them came Scythians. And people in the Mesopotamia started to write about Saka/'Ishkuza' and not Kassites. The name of the Kassites (Karanduniash) vanished from this region, while the name of the Scythians entered not much later after that.
The neo-Babylonian Empire of these Kassites was also called Karanduniash. '-niash' means land. So, land of the Karandu.

http://www.emmetsweeney.net/article-directory/item/61-kassites-and-scythians.html

GloomyGonzales
06-09-11, 21:14
As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .


Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.

Asturrulumbo
06-09-11, 23:21
...the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East 700 BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
"...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
-EIEC
(I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians

Goga
07-09-11, 00:16
Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
"...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
-EIEC
(I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians
Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...

Asturrulumbo
07-09-11, 03:08
Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point.

But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH West Asian DNA in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...

As I have said, my knowledge of DNA is very limited (at least in most cases), so in this occasion I can only contribute the discussion on the cultural sphere (which usually overlaps with the genealogical sphere...but only to a certain extent). And thus I think my humble contribution to this thread is complete... Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians.

Goga
07-09-11, 03:25
Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/SarmatiansPlease. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!

What I do is just brainstorming and question everything. I do know nothing. I'm just a pilgrim lost in history who is in search for the true and what happened in the past. Every contribution and view of point from all over the world is a profit for the human race.
If you want to know the world better you must include opinions of folks from all over the world. The better way to find the true is to approach it from as many perceptions as possible!

So be kind and write everything what you know about the Scythians, Medes, East Europeans and other people…

Asturrulumbo
07-09-11, 03:37
But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".

Asturrulumbo
07-09-11, 04:34
Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!
Alright then..
Among linguists, Iranian languages are split into two main branches: the Western branch (Kurdish, Median, Parthian, Persian, etc.) and the Eastern branch (Bactrian, Scythio-Sarmatian, Pamiris, Pashto, etc.). Now then, Iranian Langs. as a whole are usually thought to have their origin in the Eurasian Steppe. I personally would point especially to the Fedorovo culture, a culture around Southern Siberia (c. 1500-1300 BCE). This culture lies within the broader Andronovo Horizon (c. 2300-800 BCE), from which also the Indo-Aryans probably were, albeit at a much earlier date. The Andronovo Horizon slowly spread to the south and west (see map).
Now then, from there, the East Iranians (such as Scythians) can probably be associated with the later phases of the Andronovo culture, as well as its western neighbour the Srubna Culture (c. 1700-1100 BCE) (see map).
The West Iranians (such as the Medes) can probably be associated with the West Iranian Buff Ware (which appeared around 1100 BCE in the southwest Caspian coast, and then expanded towards the Zagros regions).
So this is what I think, from what I have read.

Bodin
07-09-11, 14:33
Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.
Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians . If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic languague and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.

Bodin
07-09-11, 14:41
Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.
I also believe Medes are native to west Asia or somwhere betwen it and Central Asia , but I believe they were carryers of I2a2-Din that took refuge there during LGM . R1a was bringed by IE speackers together with languague - like Scythians and Persians . J2 is comed in Asia Minor and Caucasus during Neolithe from fertile crescent .
You didnt understand me I didnt said Scythians comed FROM Baltic , I said they settled there later . So the Sarmathians are, in antiquity ( Tacitus ,... ) Baltic sea was called oceanus Saramathicus - Sarmathian Ocean .

GloomyGonzales
07-09-11, 15:46
Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians .

Wikipedia
The Sarmatians emerged in the 7th century BC in a region of the steppe to the east of the Don River and south of the Ural Mountains.

Prokhorovka kurgans associated with early Sarmatians are located in the Urals area in Russia.



If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic language and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.

Maybe it would be a great opening for you but Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture is located in South Ural and nevertheless associated with R1a Arian people.

By the way where did you get this weird idea that Sarmatians came from Media? The Sarmatian language is classified as Northeastern Iranian while the Median is Northwestern Iranian.

Bodin
07-09-11, 16:26
Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.
Prokhorovka culture graves are from IV - II century BC , and that is after Sarmathians setled from Asia .
Yes Andronovo or Petrovka culture was R1a but it was mostly west Siberia , and partualy south Ural , but it was 2.500-1000 years BC , and it was probably were Scythians come from .
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Andronovo_culture.png/300px-Andronovo_culture.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andronovo_culture.png)
About languagues : Sarmathian was under influence of Scythian , and there is to litlle of it preserved to say was it closer to Scythian or Median .
About West Balkans archeological findings show Slavic presence only from VI to VII century , while findings since VII century ( arriving Serbs and Croats ) are much more simillar to Sarmathian findings in Moldova ( Ants ) and Banat ( Yazigi) .And I2a2- Din is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe ( even Neolithe) , same as R1b is to young to be in West Europe since Neolithe.

GloomyGonzales
07-09-11, 17:52
Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.


Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.

sparkey
07-09-11, 18:00
Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.

I think that I2a-Din is less mysterious than most make it out to be. It seems clearly to be an example of a haplogroup that expanded recently and quickly within a population that picked it up while it was expanding itself. I'm not sure whether that's the Illyrians or the Slavs or somebody else, but I lean toward the Slavs based on current evidence. A connection with the Sarmatians is tenuous, mainly because there's no evidence that Haplogroup I spread to Asia at all until very recently. A remaining question is the Haplogroup I in Kurds, which we know too little about to contribute usefully to this discussion.

Kardu
07-09-11, 20:09
As for haplogroup J2 in modern Bulgaria it might be attributed to the Colchian (Caucasian) presence in Balkans according to Pliny the Elder.
penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny3.html

Bodin
08-09-11, 01:44
Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.
OK you obviosly dont know what are you talking about - you just called father of critical history a "Greek myth writer ". Have you even read Diodorus ?
And what is your idea , who was the I2a2-Din original bearers ?

Bodin
08-09-11, 01:49
And no I2a2 is not Slavic because Slavs are mainly R1a -Scythian descendants , as I previosly explained all of I2a2 may be conected with Sarmathian movements , and please dont quote Kievan chronicles, because they are counterfited which is proven by science

Asturrulumbo
08-09-11, 03:02
First of all, Diodorus was certainly not a myth writer. Having said that, I don't think at all that the Sarmatians come from the Medes. If linguistic evidence isn't enough, then archaeological evidence should be: It seems reasonably clear to me that their origins lie along with that of the Scythians, and there is no archaeological evidence of a crossing from Persia to the steppe at that time, nor would the Sarmatians' inherently nomadic traditions point that they came from a highly urbanized region such as Persia. Also, one should not rule out that the Sarmatians were merely a mixing of the indigenous Cimmerians with invading Scythian tribes...

Bodin
08-09-11, 17:28
Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.

Bodin
08-09-11, 17:39
And Cymerrians lived north of Black sea - where the Scythians lived later , and Sarmathians were north of Caucasus .

Goga
08-09-11, 18:05
Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?

Goga
08-09-11, 18:10
But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people"."the eastward migration". Exactly this is what I'm talking about. These Andronovo Culture folks came from somewhere else. Many people thought that they came from Europe (because of the Kurgans and steppes), but in Central Asia (around the Andronovo Horizon) is more West Asian DNA, than the North European DNA.
Also ANI (Ancestral North Indian) is closer to West Asia than to North Europe.

Some Iranic folks from Central Asia migrated back into West Asia. The Parthians (and maybe the Medes like some people say) are a very good example of it. But personally I do really think that the Medes just stayed behind in West Asia (Zagros mountains / the Iranian plateau) when their kinsmen migrated into Central Asia and formed the Andronovo and other related cultures.

Goga
08-09-11, 18:37
Btw, it has been widely accepted by the scholars that the Scythians, Sarmartians and maybe even the so called Cimmerians belonged to the nearby western neighbouring Iranic culture called the Srubna Culture, successor to the Yamna culture. So these people were not from the Andronovo horizon.

"The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.The Srubna culture is succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians in the 1st millennium BC, and by Khazars and Kipchaks in the first millennium AD."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

Goga
08-09-11, 18:43
This Srubna Culture was a successor to the Yamna Culture.

But in turn this Yamna Culture was heavily influenced by the folks from Caucasus (and West Asia), Maikop culture and other west ASIAN cultures and subcultures. Both cultures were practically the same!

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/4678/yamna.jpg

Goga
08-09-11, 18:48
The heart Andronovo horizon is pink, Srubna (Yamna) is on the westside.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3262/andronovoculture.jpg


Here is the map of 'OLD Europe'

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9544/oldeurope.jpg

Bodin
09-09-11, 14:33
Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?
Well if I would have to gues :
yDNA
I2a2-Din about 70%
I2*+I2a* about 3%
J2 about 8%
R1a about 10%
G2a about 3%
E1b1b about 6%
mthDNA
H about 50%
U about 20%
K about 10%
I about 15%
X2 and W about 5%

Bodin
09-09-11, 14:48
Yamna culture is proposed as Proto IE - where the R1a lived before parts moved to form Andronovo culture , and Srubna culture . Srubna culture is maybe protoCymmerian , but Scythians definetly come from east - Scythians lived from Black sea to Altay .
There is clear difference betwen Scythian and Sarmathian artefacts , burrials , customs , ... I dont know how could they be same

Bodin
09-09-11, 14:52
I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria

Goga
09-09-11, 15:13
I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeriaYes, Scythians came from the Andronovo area, but my question is where from came the ancestors of these Scythians?
From the Iranian plateau or from the northern parts of Caucasus? If they were from Northern Caucasus, they would share the same ancestors as Srubna (Yamna) people.

I do also believe that when Scythians came and tried to replace the original Srubna folks (let call them the Cimmerians from now on), many so called Cimmerians fled to southern Caucasus and Northwest Asia (around Kurdistan) and many stayed in their home place and mixed with the Scythians.

Is it possible that the ancestors of the Sarmatians were the Scythians AND Cimmerians, the native population of Srubna culture.

So that makes Sarmatians native to northern parts of the Caucasus, in & around the Srubna area.

I think I2a-din was part of the Srubna people, and not of the Iranic speaking people that were from the Iranian plateau. So I2a-din in Kurdistan is maybe from North Caucasus, from the Srubna culture people...

Bodin
10-09-11, 12:22
I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .

Goga
10-09-11, 15:11
I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .
Do you have pictures of their artefacts and other relics???

How do you know that the Sarmatians, Scythians and Cimmerians were so different to each other? All these folks were Iranic speakers, so I do really think their cultures had some similarities.
But it is also possible that the Cimmerians were not Iranic at all, but Europeans (I2a-din) who just spoke an Iranic language because they were influenced by other Iranic speakers from South Caucasus or Andronovo people.

And according to me it is not very likely that Medes were I2a-din folks. They didn't come from Europe. No way they came from Europe. They were native to the Iranian plateau and according to me they were mainly R1a, R2a, J and maybe even R1b folks with some T (was called K2)! There's very much R1b in Eastern (Iranian occupied) Kurdistan.

Plus there is for about 8% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds (Northern Kurds) and also the same percentage in Tajikistan! This is very MUCH! Tajiks are linguistically and culturally related (very close) to the Kurds. Tajiks have very much of West Asian hg. J in them too. They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites, from about 3000 BCE. So R2a must be pre-Parthian in the Caucasus. But it's also possible that some R2a came to Kurdistan from Central Asia together with the Parthians.

Goga
10-09-11, 15:31
Here are the Scythian artefacts. Even Hungarians think they're Scythians, everybody on this planet is Scythian lol...

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6875/scythian.jpg
http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/scyth.htm

Goga
10-09-11, 15:38
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Issyk_Golden_Cataphract_Warrior.jpg

"A cataphract-style parade armour of a Saka royal from the Issyk kurgan, Kazakhstan"
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Scythians

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Golden%20Deer/images/156.L.jpg

Bodin
10-09-11, 20:55
Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
Hier are some Sarmathian artefacts5123 5124 5125

5126
Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a

Bodin
10-09-11, 21:04
So Cymmeria is place of R1a refuge , and R1a is one that is spreading due to horsebriding, ironwork , not the one that gets its lands invaded by I2a2-Din, she is the one that carry IE languagues west and east .
Also Cymerians never lived North of Caucasus like Sarmathians , but North of Black sea ,so it would be more logical that Sarmathians are mixed Scythians and Caucasian population , which is ofcourse not the case.
5128 5129 5130 5131 5132

Bodin
10-09-11, 21:16
There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
5133 5134

Goga
10-09-11, 21:29
Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
Hier are some Sarmathian artefacts5123 5124 5125

5126
Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a? What do you mean by 20 thousand years ago?

Yes there's about 44% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia, but there live only 30,000 Kurds or maybe even less. These Kurds marry only with each other, because most of them are Yezidi. It's forbidden for the Yezidi Kurds to marry other religions. So 44% is due to the bottleneck effect. Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia are the same as Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey. Most Kurmanji in Georgia are originally from Turkish Kurdistan. But Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey converted into Islam, while some Yezidi Kurds remained Yezidi. So that's why I'm counting all Kurmanjis as 1 Kurdish tribe. And about 8% of all Kurmanjis is R2a.
Bartangis of Tajikistan have a high frequency of R2a at about 17%.

R2a is a sister clade of R1a, it is from the same ancestor R*. R2a and R1a are almost the same. And it's at least as old as R1a. R2a is also very high among some other non-IE populations in Caucasus.
R2a in the Caucasus is at least 5000 years old! Upper castes of india that are very rich of R1a have very much R2a and J2 too.

"Haplogroup R2a has a more significant presence in middle and upper castes."
http://mulnivasiorganiser.bamcef.org/?p=165

Very dark skinned folks in West Asia have the Elamites and the aboriginal Paleo-Caucasian-Hurrian Mesopotamian roots! It has nothing to do with R2a! But with hg. T, I think! There's a correlation between R1a, R2a and J in Iranic peoples.

I think that the Medes were R (R1a, R2a & R1b) and J (Caucasian J1 and J2) folks.

Goga
10-09-11, 21:47
There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
5133 5134What do you mean?

Scythians had female warriors too!

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/526/femaleiranicscythianwar.png
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Women/avestan_women.htm
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2010/05/female-warriors.html

Goga
10-09-11, 21:55
Scientists about Scythian warrior women:

"A team of archeologists investigating 2,400-year-old burial mounds built by the Scythian people on the upper River Don has found that five of 21 graves contained the bodies of young women with their weapons."

http://www.fscclub.com/history/images/scyth03.jpg
http://www.fscclub.com/history/scyths-e.shtml

Bodin
10-09-11, 22:01
LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected .
I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians.
Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?

GloomyGonzales
10-09-11, 22:14
Well if I would have to gues :
yDNA
I2a2-Din about 70%
I2*+I2a* about 3%
J2 about 8%
R1a about 10%
G2a about 3%
E1b1b about 6%
mthDNA
H about 50%
U about 20%
K about 10%
I about 15%
X2 and W about 5%

I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?

Bodin
10-09-11, 22:38
First two links in previous tag speack about 1 ) equality womans and mens in Avestan deities - Persia not Scythia 2) speack about Kurdic woman wariors not Scythians
Links in this tread - they founded woman warior graves on river Don from 2.400 years - in that time Don is border betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - so they are Sarmathian , because such graves are find eats of Don in that time , and west of Don when Sarmathians moved there . Is there any female wariors tombs west of Don before 200 year BC ?They called them Scythian because the whole aeria from China to Hungary is under Scythians , that probably confused you.Lots of scientist call Scythian all east of Panonian basin to Altai mountin , and that is somewhat corect because it all use to be part of Scythian state , but not all nations in Scythia were Scythians.
Herodotus clearly say that only Sarmathian womans are wariors ( he explain that by they Amazon ancestry ) , and Scythian are not , he say that Sarmathian women need to bring head of killed enemy to king if she won to get married , and he dont saying that for Scythian womens.

Bodin
10-09-11, 22:44
I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?
Because it is 71% in Herzegovina , and that is place where Sarmathians settled on almoust empty land - Avars took and burned Voiki and 50 other cities ,they made new Avaric tribe in Panonia of captured peoples . Than Sarmathians came and killed and chased away Avars- Red Croats and then Serbs . If you look for closest image of Sarmathian genetics , look at Herzegovina .
After all there would have to be atleast 70% percents of I2a2-Din in Sarmathians to spread it so much amongs Slavs :)

Goga
11-09-11, 00:35
LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected .
I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians.
Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?
Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to 70% (in some areas) of R1a in Tajikistan.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.

Goga
11-09-11, 00:50
Tajik Y-DNA.

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8595/33895008.jpg
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4539/58759339.jpg

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

Yagnobi Tajiks have even 32% of R1b (M173) + 16% R1a (M17) + 32% J2 (M172), while Ishkashimi Tajiks have 68% of R1a (M17), Tajk/Khojant Tajiks 64% of R1a and Bartangi Tajiks 40% of R1a.
All of them have very much West Asian J2 (M172) and F* (M89; J1 or G2a) too. And there's also R2a (M124) in these people!

Cobol19
11-09-11, 10:01
My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.



I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!


How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts):

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia (Populations of Turkey)
R2 - 1% (5/523)
H - 0.6% (3/523)

Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon (Lebanese and Iranians were tested)
R2 - 1.5% (5/324) Among Iranians
H - 2.5% (8/324) Among Iranians

Also if you check yhrd, you'll notice that haplogroup H exists among:

Bakhtiari - 4% (2/50)
Persians - 3.1% (4/128)
Syrians - 3% (3/100)
Turks - 2.2% (15/670)
Gilaki - 2.1% (1/47)
Mazandarani - 2% (1/50)
Armenians - 2% (2/100)
Kurds - 1.6% (2/126)
Azeri - 1.4% (1/72)
Georgians - 1.3% (1/77)

Keep in mind that I left out other Arab states such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, etc where H is also found in similar numbers as the above, I also only searched one type of haplogroup H haplotype, the numbers could get a little bigger if other haplotypes are looked for.

Goga
11-09-11, 15:25
How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts)
Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H.
Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.

So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2!

They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.

Goga
11-09-11, 15:31
My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.
Central Asian Iranic Tajiks have much more R1a than the European Slavic folks, like Poles, Ukrainians and (Bela)Russians...

Goga
11-09-11, 15:45
This is one of the scenarios!

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5696/13166462.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4888/91567053.jpg


And this is a second scenario!

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2227/14129769.jpg
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4594/91747153.jpg


http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index_files/index_data/Haplogroup_R2_Manoukian.pdf

Cobol19
11-09-11, 22:03
Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H.
Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.

There are cases where a genetic drift has taken place, on the other hand, let's take the Chechens and Ossetians as an example, if R2a was so common among them, why wasn't it found in the latest study on the Caucasus called "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region"? 330 samples were Chechens and 357 were Ossetians, not only that, but there was zero R2a in the entire study where 1525 samples were taken, I was not expecting that myself but this just goes to show you that R2a is not really an important lineage in the region, it shows up but its frequency is anywhere from 1% to 5% (More on the lower end), much like H.


So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2!85% to 90% of R2a individuals today live in India, whether it originated there or not we don't know, but we do know that the strongest possibility for point of origin at this point falls somewhere in South Central Asia (Around North Pakistan and Afghanistan), because there we see the R* diversity very high, not to mention that recently it has been suggested that all the R* were likely R2*, if that's the case then all those groups that tested high in R* such as the Burusho and Kalash are actually R2* and their region may be the origins to this lineage.

As far as West Asian R2a goes, it's not out of the question to believe that it came from India, remember that there was an ancient connection between the Indus and Mesopotamia and through trade I'm very positive there was a gene wave going both ways, there's no need to dismiss the South Asian connection just because you feel like it, at the same time it's equally possible to believe that some R2a may have come through the Indo-Iranian expansions, my point is R2a belongs to different groups, but most dominant among South Asians.


They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.

Goga
11-09-11, 23:14
Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will provide new data on other countries in West Asia.

I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a).
And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient Scythians and Medes had some R2a in them too!

There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.

It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!


I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.I've got that from the http://dna-forums.org.

Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites in the Caucasus. If you're interested in this I would ask him.

You can ask him here: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/13925-multiple-haplogroup-strata-in-armenia/

Bodin
11-09-11, 23:29
Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to 70% (in some areas) of R1a in Tajikistan.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/PNAS_2001_v98_p10244.pdf

But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup 'H' in West Asia! Haplogroup H is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .

Goga
11-09-11, 23:37
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.

Cobol19
11-09-11, 23:47
Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will new data on other countries in West Asia.

Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.


I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a). All R* subclades are related to each other. And are from the same region. And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient Scythians and Medes had some R2a in them too!It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.

One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.


There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.


It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.



Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites. If you're interested in this I would ask him.
You misunderstood what this person was saying, there was no R2a found, he/she was simply taking current R2a STR values from FTDNA projects and calculating the TMRCA based on these STR values, which eventually according to his/her theory, it dates back to that time period, this is a person's opinion, not evidence.

Cobol19
11-09-11, 23:49
I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .

Actually, R2a correlates with R1a1a in South Asia, meaning there's a good chance they both have a similar history there that predates the migration of the Indo-Aryan speakers, the evidence for that is that R1a1a is actually found in most groups in South Asia including tribal Indians.

Bodin
12-09-11, 00:00
You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .

Bodin
12-09-11, 00:05
Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.
You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?

Goga
12-09-11, 00:11
Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.

It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.

One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.

Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.

Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.

You misunderstood what this person was saying, there was no R2a found, he/she was simply taking current R2a STR values from FTDNA projects and calculating the TMRCA based on these STR values, which eventually according to his/her theory, it dates back to that time period, this is a person's opinion, not evidence.Ok. But how do you explain 8% of R2a in Kurds while there's only 1.6% of H in them (1.6% according to you)?

Cobol19
12-09-11, 00:11
You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .

There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.

Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.


You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?

As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.

Goga
12-09-11, 00:14
Having said that, people need to break thing us, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.
What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 00:16
Ok. But how do you explain 8% of R2a in Kurds while there's only 1.6% of H?

How do you explain it? I would say founder effect.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 00:19
What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.

What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.

Goga
12-09-11, 00:28
How do you explain it? I would say founder effect.Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.

All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated into India later. And that H and R have different origin.

There's R2a in West Asia, while H is almost absent. 1-2% of H is nothing, maybe due to some gene flow, Gypsies etc..

People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some Dravidian-centric folks hg. J2 is from India too. Bla, bla..

But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India, you can deny it or not !!!

Goga
12-09-11, 00:33
What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!

Cobol19
12-09-11, 00:48
Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.

I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.


All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated much later into India. And that H and R have different origin.Haplogroup H is indeed almost exclusive to South Asia, but what do you say when 90% of R2a are Indian? That's pretty exclusive too, and no, we don't know if H, R2a, or whatever was ancient Dravidian, in fact, I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.


People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some folks there J2 is also from India. Bla, bla..

But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India!!!First, I'm not South Asian so I care less whether an Aryan invasion happened or not, second, I do believe that Aryan tribes did migrate from Central Asia and brought their Aryan languages (Possibly only one language at the time) to India, third, J2 originated in West Asia, finally, my opinion is based on scientific data collected in studies, both of haplogroups R1a1a and R2a exist among South Indian tribal groups that speak Dravidian languages, in fact, both of these lineages exist in most Indian groups and language or caste/tribe is hardly the defining factor, what makes R2a more Aryan than Dravidian?

Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 00:49
Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!
Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans :rolleyes2:

Sile
12-09-11, 00:51
As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.

I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

Bodin
12-09-11, 00:53
There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.

Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.



As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.
I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.

Bodin
12-09-11, 01:02
I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did
They couldnt be Slavicized because there was not Slavs when Scythians were there , Slavs was made later , I guess of Scythians ploughers( around Pripyat) , some Neuri( Balts) , and maybe some older population .

Cobol19
12-09-11, 01:02
I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around (The early Indo-Europeans were the ones to do that), for whatever it's worth, only detailed analysis of R1a1a can determine that, recently, L342.2 seems to be the defining SNP that is found among R1a1a groups in South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East, in Europe however this is lacking with the exception of Jewish R1a1a, I believe groups like Tajiks and Pashtuns still carry significant ancient Scythian DNA, specially when both groups still speak languages similar (Among the Tajiks, the Pamiri groups still speak such language), if this mutation is found among them, I think this will close the case.

I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 01:06
I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.

Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.

Goga
12-09-11, 01:06
I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.Which new studies? And on which Kurds? Southern Kurds almost don't have R2a, while Northern Kurds have some R2a, like other Iranic folks in the region.


I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.True. But do you know Kant? He said one time a very good thing: "Begriffe ohne Anschauunge sind leer, Anschauunge ohne Begriffe sind tot."


Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.
I'm not accusing you. I'm sorry if you thought that I'm accusing you. My point is maybe you're reading very controversial studies?

And you're right. If you ingore the facts you will never find the true!

Bodin
12-09-11, 01:16
Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.
I didnt say they are the same , I only said Scythians are descendants of Andronovo culture peoples

Goga
12-09-11, 01:17
Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans :rolleyes2:
So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?

If Tajiks are related to Scythians. And Tajiks speak an IE language and they are Iranic. Tajiks are the close relatives to modern Persians, that are also Iranic IE folks. Scythians spoke an Indo-European language too and are related to modern IE folks like Tajiks. So that makes them both without doubts Iranic and Indo-European.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 01:35
So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?

They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.

My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.

The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.

Bodin
12-09-11, 01:56
If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

Goga
12-09-11, 01:56
# Cobol19

Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.

Bodin
12-09-11, 01:59
They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.

My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.

The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.
I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:01
# Cobol19

Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.
Trying my best

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:03
If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there.

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.


I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia

I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:08
Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape
5136

Goga
12-09-11, 02:09
If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.

So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:10
Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape
5136

Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:20
What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there.

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.



I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.
No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )

Goga
12-09-11, 02:21
The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.
In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!

All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:30
I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.

So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.
Thanks , maybe Medians come with Persians like I2a2 , and maybe they were also R1a , but ruled over majority of I2a2 that was previosly in aeria.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:33
Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.
Since certain haplogroups lived long time in same climate , they get characteristic looks

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:33
No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )

Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:35
In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!

All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.

With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:47
Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.
No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:48
No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.

Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.

Bodin
12-09-11, 02:50
With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.
No nation is just from one nation , every nation is from mixed origin

Goga
12-09-11, 02:55
With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region. In some areas there's more J2 in some areas there's more I2 or R1, but in general all Kurdish areas show the same pattern.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!

Cobol19
12-09-11, 02:58
What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!

Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.

Bodin
12-09-11, 03:00
Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.
Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions

Bodin
12-09-11, 03:02
Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.
No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation

Cobol19
12-09-11, 03:08
Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions

I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.


No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation

Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.

Goga
12-09-11, 03:13
Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.
Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 03:25
Ok. I do agree with you!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? The same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.

zanipolo
12-09-11, 03:44
Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around

I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.

Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?

zanipolo
12-09-11, 03:48
Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.

Goga
12-09-11, 03:53
They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized."Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:

Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

Goga
12-09-11, 04:01
some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.
Well that's might be true. I can't find any other explanation! And this will change my perception on the ancient Greek historians that not all of them were a bunch of biased liars with a lot imagination.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 04:04
"Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:

Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).

Goga
12-09-11, 04:14
I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).Ok thanks! Very much G2a in the Ossetian groups!

No according to Bodin I2a-din Sarmatians were NOT like Scythians. Accroding to him Sarmatians and Scythians were different people. He is saying that Scythians were R1a folks and Sarmatians I2a-din folks. And that the Sarmatians and Medes were the same. According to him Sarmatians are the 'Solar Medes'.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 04:21
isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?

It's not Ukrainian originally, it exists in South Asia and it predates the Indo-Aryan migration by its existence in tribal Indians:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2006/01/11/0507714103.DC1/07714Table_3.pdf

Some Indian R1a1a indeed share Indo-European ancestors with Eastern Europeans, but a lot of them have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

Alan
12-09-11, 06:03
Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups
First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them. I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.

In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2/default.aspx?section=yresults

Back to the Scythians, Medes etc. Like I mentioned sometime before allmost all
schoolers agree that a Nation called the "Medes" were the product of various North Iranic tribes.
Mede was more a title later becoming the name of a confederation. from historic records we know that Mede was also the title of many Scythians and Cimmerians. for more informations "Carola Metzner-Nebelsick: Kimmerier In: Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde,"

Many of the so called "Medes" were in fact Cimmerians and Scythians. If we look at historic records we see, that throughout the whole former Median empire there are traces of Cimmerians and Scythians-Alans. Cimmerians in Edessa, Cappadocia,Hakkari,Van and around the Zagroß. Persian records talk about Gmira(the Proto-Iranian word for Cimmerians with the meaning mobile unites, nomadic groups). There are records that South of Lak Urmiya a Region was called Gamirk the same name which was also used by the Cimmerians moving into Cappadocia. Even today this Region is called by Kurds Gawirk! This M=W/V soundshift is very typical for some Kurdish languages like Kurmanji known by any linguist. As example The North Iranian Hamin becomes Havin. Even today in this Region a Kurdish tribe lives which is called Gorani. The Word Gorani derives from Old Iranic Gairi which means Highlanders. Gairi is another Version for the Name of Cimmerians in pre historic times.

Then there are the Alans one of the biggest Kurdish tribes. Someone must be very ignorant to not see the connection between them and the Alans of Sarmatia. 99% of historians are sure that the Alan tribe among Kurds are simply the Alans(Sarmatians). The Alan tribe of Kurds live throughout Kurdistan from East Anatolia to Zagros. From Dersim, Van, Hakkari to Kirmashan you can find the Alans. unfortunately after the Dersim massacre especially members of the Alan tribe in Dersim were deported to West Anatolia to be assimilated.

a wedding of the Kurdish Alan tribe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuhCp-rLqg&feature=related

The Region around Sine(Sanandaj) and Mahabad is traditionally called by their People Erdalan. In Kurdish it means Erd(place, earth) Alan. The place of Alans.
Alan Kurdish dance Group from Erdalan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFmkCioBAHE

The Alans also play a big role in Kurdish love stories

With regard to the Alans, we have previously mentioned the large Alanian tribal confederations among the Kurds, such as Alans of Piranshahr and Sardasht south of lake Urmia or the Alan aristocracy who ruled for centuries over what is nowadays Iranian province of Kurdistan (Ardalan, or Ard-Alan), immidiately to south of the former.
We have also referred to the name of the mythological Kurdish hero of the Epic of Mem u Zin, "Memê Alan" (or Mam the Alan). This classic love story is considered to be the épopée of the Kurdish literature. One more interesting fact with regard to the story is pointed out by the French orientalist and expert on Kurdish literature, Roger Lescot. He rightfully identified the origin of the story in a narration by Chares of Mytilene, a Greek historian of the 4th century BC. Chares informs us that the love story which is about a prince and a Scythian princess, is originally recited by the Scythians of Caucasus mountains.

the story was filmed here some excerpts. Zîn is the woman. Memê Alan(Mem the Alan) is men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfYn7Ns0Fn8&feature=related

Now the thing is some people totally ignore this because they use the linguistics as reason. Those People usually have zero knowledge about the Iranic languages and how they are classified. The difference between Northwest and Northeast Iranic is super small. In fact the factors which are used for this separation are so small that simple loud shifts could effect that a Northeast Iranic language is considered Northwest. Thats why MANY linguists started to Question this system and recognized that in fact the difference between the NW and NE Iranic is smaller as that between NW and SW Iranic. Many linguists in fact do classify like this.
http://i47.tinypic.com/33wqpm0.jpg
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2011/04/indo-european-family-of-languages.jpgThey put Kurdish together with the East Iranic languages in a Central Group and Persian, Kathanese have their own separate branch.

We Kurds just like any other People are the product of different tribes. The Reason why so many Kurds insist on the Median heritage, is because the forefather of Kurds were united under this title just like they are today under the term Kurd. But I don´t like it when Medes are mentioned as if it was one tribe. Med was a title used for Scythians, Parthians, Cimmerians, Alans, Mitannis and even Caucasian tribes(Hurrians) etc. and the Kurdish tribes with there diverse names are the product of this. Around Mardin there is even a Kurdish tribe called Mitan! There must be a reason why in Iranian languages Kurd means nomad as well Warrior and why Iranians almost always say "the Kurds are the real Iranians" Now the Question is, did all these tribes move into Media, or were they already present.

Alan
12-09-11, 06:38
And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.

zanipolo
12-09-11, 06:43
@ Alan
your language table is in error

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/jandacek07.pdf

slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs

Alan
12-09-11, 07:06
@ Alan
your language table is in error

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/jandacek07.pdf

slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs


No it isnt. It cant be wrong it just has a different type. Every table is different from another. It differs between South, East and West Slavic. Your PDF says Southwest Slavic and it doesent differs so good.

Cobol19
12-09-11, 12:42
Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups

Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.org[/URL] and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:

DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10


First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them.I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full (http://www.yhrd.com)

This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.

Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.


I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.


In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
[URL]http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2/default.aspx?section=yresults
I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract

Here's the frequency from the study:

5138

Alan
12-09-11, 16:20
Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.org[/URL] and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:

DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10
I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.


I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:

[URL]http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full (http://www.yhrd.com)

This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.
thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.



Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.

I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.



Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin. No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.

https://files.pbworks.com/download/UjasSIYiow/kanachworldcultures/27556151/south_asia_map.gif



I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract

Here's the frequency from the study:

5138

I will look over it, Thank you.

Bodin
12-09-11, 18:16
I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.



Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period

Bodin
12-09-11, 18:17
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering

Bodin
12-09-11, 18:32
They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.
No they were not some form of Scythians , you just denied yourself , Scythians were R1a - shown by grave excavations, and there is very litle R1a among Ossetians . But there is significant amount of I2a2 in Ossetians - Sarmatians.
No Alans are not same as Sarmathians - they later got in to Sarmathian union , but Alan mean " one that live in steppes" - they are descendants of Masagetae - that lived east of Caspian sea , and Sarmathians west of it - Chinese sources mention Alanliao on that place and say they are descendants of Yancai kingdom ( Osi , Aorsi other names of Alani ).

Bodin
12-09-11, 18:36
Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?
Only some Scythians become Madyars , most of them turned to Slavs

Bodin
12-09-11, 19:02
I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).
This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00131.x/pdf
and hier is abstract:
Table 3


Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Ossetian groups

Haplogroups

Groups N E

∗ C∗ K∗ P1 P∗ R1∗ R1a1∗ F∗ G∗ J2∗ I∗ HD Source

YAP RPS4Y M9 M124 M45 M173 M17 M89 M201 M172 M170

North Ossetia (Russia)

Digora

31 0 0 0 0 0.06 0 0 0.03 0.74 0.03 0.13 0.440 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Ardon

28 0 0 0.07 0 0.04 0 0.04 0.04 0.21 0.29 0.32 0.788 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Zil’ga

23 0 0 0.130 0 0 0 0 0.043 0.565 0.261 0 0.620 Present study

Zamankul

23 0 0 0.217 0 0 0 0 0.087 0.609 0.087 0 0.590 Present study

Alagir

24 0 0 0.083 0.083 0 0.042 0 0 0.750 0.042 0 0.440 Present study

South Ossetia (Georgia)

S. Ossetians

17 0.18 0 0 0 0 0.12 0.06 0.41 - 0.24 0 0.772 Wells et al., (2001)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus
There is extract :

Lezgins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lezgins)NEC (Lezgic)31&100000000000000065000006.5&100000000000000096999999.7&10000000000000009699999I=9.7&1000000000000005810000058.1&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000.0&1000000000000001610000016.1&100000000000000000000000.00.0—Yunusbaev 2006[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Yunusbaev_2006-8)
Dargins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dargins)NEC (Dargin)2644I=58see F400400F[xG,I,J2,K]=27Nasidze2004[/URL]BChechens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Nasidze2004-1) Total [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-19)NEC (Nakh)3300.0P18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_(Y-DNA))=3.0
P303 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_(Y-DNA))=2.4I2=.3J1*=20.9M67=55.2
J2b=.3
other=1.2L3=7.03.91.83.30.0-Balanovsky 2011alkars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Balanovsky2011-2)Altaic (Turkic)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-NorthTurkified-16)38&100000000000000026000002.6&1000000000000002889999928.9I2*=&100000000000000026000002.60M67=5.3
J2b=2.6
other=15.8L2=&100000000000000052999995.3&1000000000000001319999913.2&1000000000000001319999913.2&100000000000000079000007.9&100000000000000000000000.0H=2.6Battaglia2008[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeris"]Azeris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Battaglia2008-17)
(Azerbaijan)Altaic (Turkic)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-AzerisTurkified-14)725.618.12.8F30.66.9[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Nasidze_2003_haplos-0)6.911.12.84.2[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Nasidze_2003_haplos-0)F[xG,I,J2,K]=11Nasidze2004[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Nasidze2004-1)Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars)NEC (Avar-Andic, Avar)1150.0P18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_(Y-DNA))=.9
P303 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_(Y-DNA))=9.6I*=.9
I2a=.9J1e=.9
J1*=58.3M67=.9
other=5.2L2=2.61.714.8.90.0N=1.7Balanovsky 2011[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Balanovsky2011-2)
Andis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_(people))NEC (Avar-Andic, Andic)49&100000000000000020000002.0G2=
&100000000000000060999996.1I1=&100000000000000020000002.0
I2a=&1000000000000002450000024.5&1000000000000003670000036.7&1000000000000001839999918.4&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000020000002.0&100000000000000060999996.10.0&100000000000000020000002.0—Yunusbaev Adygei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adygei)/
"Circassians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians)"[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-3)NWC (Adygei)-0.0[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Cruciani2004-4)31.3[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Dib09-5)I*=1.4
I2a=2.9[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus#cit e_note-Rootsi2004-6)

--Adygei (Kabardin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardin))NWC (Adigei)59&100000000000000000000000&1000000000000002880000028.8&10000000000000010199999I=10.2F11.9K&100000000000000017000001.7&100000000000000017000001.70KF[xG,I,J2,K]=23.7
K[xP]=15.3



Abkhaz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazians)

NWC (Abkhaz-Ubykh)1200 I=33025033.0800—Nasidze2004

GloomyGonzales
12-09-11, 19:14
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%


First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

Alan
12-09-11, 19:16
First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.

Bodin
12-09-11, 19:22
And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.
No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .

Bodin
12-09-11, 19:25
@ Alan
your language table is in error

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/jandacek07.pdf

slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs
No Slovenes are southSlavic languague group , and Slovakians are west Slavic

Bodin
12-09-11, 19:31
First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.
Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

GloomyGonzales
12-09-11, 19:46
Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?

GloomyGonzales
12-09-11, 19:52
Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.

Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.

Alan
12-09-11, 19:55
No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .

Another interesting fact is that they were only called Medes from outside while the Medes called themselves Aryan and were made up by 6 tribes according to Heredotus. This is another indication that Mede was not a specific folkname but more like a political status. It is not wrong to to assume that the so called Medes from West Asia were in fact Proto Iranic(Aryan) nomad groups. Mede can be seen similar as Aryan and was used as title throughout the Iranian world. Mede=high priest (political status) Aryan= noble.

GloomyGonzales
12-09-11, 19:57
Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?

Alan
12-09-11, 19:59
Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.

They did absorb Alans in North Caucasus and the Steppes but your right this was rather small. The Turkic tribes mostly absorbed Sogdian blood.

Kardu
12-09-11, 20:07
Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.

Kardu
12-09-11, 20:11
They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was proto-Indo-European.

Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.

Goga
12-09-11, 21:08
Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.I'm sorry I made a mistake. Some fella on the other site suggested this , but I misunderstood him and other people and took their ideas as facts.

Here are they talking about it: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/13925-multiple-haplogroup-strata-in-armenia/

Kardu
12-09-11, 21:31
Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.

Alan
12-09-11, 22:06
Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.

That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.

Bodin
13-09-11, 03:11
Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?

Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Enjoy:satisfied:, and thanks for answering

Bodin
13-09-11, 03:19
Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?

No I dont think it is a genetic viruse . I clearly said that there was some I2a2 peoples in Northen Kazahstan before Tatars , when Tatars comed , they conquered them , and in time become one nation. I cant say it more simply . Egzample : when Russians conquered Finnic nations ( Komi , Maari ,...) in today Northwest Russia , they didnt catch any viruse , but today in some these aerias population has over 50% of N1c ( Finnic) - not only Maari , Komi ,... but Russians to , and that is result of mixing and Russization , simillar proces could occure in Kazahstan to .

Bodin
13-09-11, 03:39
Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.
Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable .
There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.

Cobol19
13-09-11, 06:00
I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia (http://www.scribd.com/doc/37192835/03b-Excavating-Y-chromosome-haplotype-strata-in-Anatolia-Cinniog%CB%98lu-2004)

Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/genographic/StaticFiles/ProjectUpdates/EJHG2010.pdf)


thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.I don't think I ever said R2a and H correlate nor I said it came through the Gypsies, I said they had comparable numbers in West Asia, which they do, both lineages are not that significant.


I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.I would say 90% of R2a in Europe is indeed of Jewish origin (Both Ashkenazi and Sephardi), these European Jewish R2a resemble the Middle Eastern Jewish R2a which means they came from them, this comparison has been done in our R2 FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2-M124-WTY/default.aspx?section=yresults

If you're not aware, based on Behar, R2a is likely a very strong lineage among the Iraqi and Iranian Jews (Go to page 37 for the numbers):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/extref/nature09103-s1.pdf

For some reason, he did not split R2 from Q, so the frequency is actually under PQR2, the Iraqi Jews carry about 30% (24/79), while the Iranian Jews carry 36% (17/49), I can guarantee that each group carries at least 10% R2a if not more (Likely more), because P* is extremely rare, other famous haplogroups under P such as R1a and R1b already have their own columns, that leaves us with Q, among Iraqi/Iranian Jews Q1b is also quite popular like R2a, so the percentages are most likely split between R2a and Q1b with a minor Q1a.


No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.

I never suggested that the Gypsies brought R2a, I mean they probably did carry a small number of R2a among them (Which has been proven), but I doubt they played a vital role in spreading it, the strongest candidates are Indo-Iranians and Turks, along with Neolithic migrations.

Cobol19
13-09-11, 06:26
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period

Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering

This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.


This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00131.x/pdf

As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.

GloomyGonzales
13-09-11, 10:33
Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Enjoy:satisfied:, and thanks for answering

My comments about this paper:
1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.

Kardu
13-09-11, 11:16
Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable .
There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.

Thank you, Bodin.
So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

Kardu
13-09-11, 11:23
That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.

Actually he has admitted his mistake :)

"A mistype; I commented on the Armenian R2a age calculated by Jafety relative to the Trialeti culture. I'm not aware of any ancient Y-DNA being recovered from the Caucasus."

Bodin
13-09-11, 18:04
Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).



This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.



As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ?
Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?
Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" .
It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.
Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?

Bodin
13-09-11, 18:32
My comments about this paper:
1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.
1) Yes you are right , my mistake , sorry , but that is place where Volga Bulgaria was - and Bulgars are probably Sarmathians to - Balkan Bulgars also have high I2a1b.
2)from same site :
The main Turkic-speaking populations in East Europe

are the Tatars, Chuvash and Bashkirs.

The “Balkan” Haplogroup I represents the opposite

of Haplogroup R1b: its frequency is low (less than 5%)

in the Bashkirs but higher (14-24%) in the other Turkicspeakers


I dont believe they would call I M223 and I M253 "Balcanic"
I2a1b is not South Slavic , to say that you would have to prove there was significant settling of Slavs in Balkans and Kurdistan . South Slavic is only languague category.

Bodin
13-09-11, 18:34
Thank you, Bodin.
So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.
Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering

sparkey
13-09-11, 18:45
Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering

I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

sparkey
13-09-11, 18:52
TSo far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

I assume that you are either kit #164204 or kit #47732 in the FTDNA I2*/new I2b/new I2c Project. You can update your haplogroup identification to I2c; former I2*-B is thoroughly confirmed to be L596+ L597+. I agree that it is a back-migration, by the way, but despite thinking a lot about how it got back to Asia, I'm still stumped. How yes no and I have talked a bit about it on this forum and figured that Crete could have been an important place along its migration path, and that its spread must have something to do with seafaring. It could have started its migration as far away as Germany, as that's around where its brother clusters are centered.

Alan
13-09-11, 19:13
I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish inhabidet regions).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=ymap

sparkey
13-09-11, 19:27
Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish regions).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=ymap

You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

Cobol19
13-09-11, 19:29
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ?

There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.


Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?

The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.


Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" .

Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.


It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.

Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.


Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?

Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.

Cobol19
13-09-11, 19:40
You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.

Alan
13-09-11, 19:42
You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?

However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.

sparkey
13-09-11, 19:48
I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.

It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?

Cobol19
13-09-11, 19:50
It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?

Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

sparkey
13-09-11, 19:56
Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?

However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.

I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.

sparkey
13-09-11, 20:05
Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.

Cobol19
13-09-11, 20:10
I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.

It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.

sparkey
13-09-11, 20:15
It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.

With the claims of Georgian and Armenian nobility from the Asian I2c descendants (including direct descent from the House of Hasan-Jalalyan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan)) they could have had a cultural advantage. Although I tend to take such claims with a grain of salt.

Alan
13-09-11, 20:35
I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.

Yes it was the study of Nebel et al. Nasidze study was about Anatolian, Georgian Kurds. Nebel was about Iraqi Kurds and both showed I2* among them.

Bodin
13-09-11, 22:30
I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.
Than I make mistake , thanks for corecting . I wonder were I2* would be found , or it is died out ?Thanks for answering

Bodin
14-09-11, 00:05
There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.



The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.



Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.



Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.



Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.
Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c
Ofcourse mainly haplogroup would be C - there was many Mongolic invasions, and Mongols killed a lot of old population , like anywhere they were .
Hier is map that shows I in Northwestern Kazahstan , and before you ask it is highly unlikely to be I2b or I2c .Present some data that would point it would be I2b or I2c
5146
No I2a2 is not common in Turkey at all ( all I is 4% , and it is mostly in most western parts from Serbian-I2a2 and Varangian-I1 and I2b settling ) , so how do you think it get from southeast Europe ,where you presume it is originated , to Kurdistan without any impact on Anatolia ?Do you have some reasons to say it is some other I than I2a2 - present data .
It could only be I2a2 , from where would I2b or I2c comed to Kurdistan ? I believe there is some researches for Iraqian Kurds that show I2a2.
I2a2 origins cant be in Southeast Europe - it is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe , and it is highly unplausible for it to be in R1a LGM refuge and survive in such high percentage among Serbs and Croats . Only plausable explanation is that it has been carried by Sarmathians - it folow they movements.
What makes you think I2a2 is originated in eats Europe?

GloomyGonzales
14-09-11, 00:51
Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c


You should read more carefully.

Quotation from this paper:
"The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
frequency of 6% in the Ural area; see the Wikipedia and
Balanovsky I1a maps."

The Republic of Tatarstan (historical Volga Bulgaria) is located in the Volga area.

Here Balanovsky map for I1a

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hgst50.png

As you can see maximum is in the Volga area(Tatarstan and Chuvashia).

Bodin
14-09-11, 03:07
There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.



The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.



Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.



Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.



Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.
Where did you get idea that Kurdic I could be I2c ?
I2c ( former I2*B ) was found only in LOW frequencies in Armenia , Georgia and Turkey and it cant be present in Kazahstan or Ossetia or Kurdistan ( it is partualy in Iran and Iraq)
And there is themap that showing I2a in Caucasus and Kurdistan:
5151Now if you still have some doubts , it is time for some proofs

Bodin
14-09-11, 03:18
You should read more carefully.

Quotation from this paper:
"The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
frequency of 6% in the Ural area; see the Wikipedia and
Balanovsky I1a maps."

The Republic of Tatarstan (historical Volga Bulgaria) is located in the Volga area.

Here Balanovsky map for I1a

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hgst50.png

As you can see maximum is in the Volga area(Tatarstan and Chuvashia).
No I1 around Volga coming from Volgash Germans , and it is in today Russian population around Volga , not Tatar . When they speack about Tatars they call they I " Balkanic" why would they call I1 Balkanic?
Hier is map of I2a that show strong presence around Tatarstan :
5152
I make mistake and confused Tatars from Kazan with Tatars from Kazakhstan , tanks again for corection , but on this map of I in Central Asia , there is I in NorthWest Kazakhstan :5153
Thanks for answering

Cobol19
14-09-11, 09:11
Where did you get idea that Kurdic I could be I2c ?
I2c ( former I2*B ) was found only in LOW frequencies in Armenia , Georgia and Turkey and it cant be present in Kazahstan or Ossetia or Kurdistan ( it is partualy in Iran and Iraq)
And there is themap that showing I2a in Caucasus and Kurdistan:
5151Now if you still have some doubts , it is time for some proofs

Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the "SOURCES"? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.

GloomyGonzales
14-09-11, 09:23
No I1 around Volga coming from Volgash Germans , and it is in today Russian population around Volga , not Tatar . When they speack about Tatars they call they I " Balkanic" why would they call I1 Balkanic?


Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf

According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .

Cobol19
14-09-11, 09:36
Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf

According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .

Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.

Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.

EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:

I1a = I1
I1b = I2

That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.

Sile
14-09-11, 11:13
Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.

Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.

EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:

I1a = I1
I1b = I2

That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26457-quot-I2a-quot-and-quot-I2b-quot-are-about-to-mean-something-different...&

maybe this will help in your I

Cobol19
14-09-11, 11:25
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26457-quot-I2a-quot-and-quot-I2b-quot-are-about-to-mean-something-different...&

maybe this will help in your I

Interesting, but that's not what the link GloomyGonzales provided indicates, it's showing I1a peaking in Scandinavia (Being the I1), and I1b peaking in the Balkans (Classical I2), then again I did not look at the date (2004), in other words these were probably the older designations.

Sile
14-09-11, 11:35
Interesting, but that's not what the link GloomyGonzales provided indicates, it's showing I1a peaking in Scandinavia (Being the I1), and I1b peaking in the Balkans (Classical I2), then again I did not look at the date (2004), in other words these were probably the older designations.

Maybe as this link below states ( 2005 ) that dna decays the further it streches ( distance ) from east to west and less from a north to south line

http://remed.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/remed/Downloads/Roewer%202005.pdf

GloomyGonzales
14-09-11, 19:57
Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:

UPDATE III (No European influence):

Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s400/don_river.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s1600/don_river.png)
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).


This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.


Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Asturrulumbo
14-09-11, 22:29
Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:

UPDATE III (No European influence):

Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s400/don_river.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s1600/don_river.png)
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).


This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.


Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

That's another reason I believe there have been no Indo-European (or at least Iranian) migrations across the Caucasus...

Bodin
14-09-11, 23:50
Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the "SOURCES"? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.

Maciamo made it on this forum , now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b?
Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
Thanks for answering

Kardu
15-09-11, 00:16
I assume that you are either kit #164204 or kit #47732 in the FTDNA I2*/new I2b/new I2c Project. You can update your haplogroup identification to I2c; former I2*-B is thoroughly confirmed to be L596+ L597+. I agree that it is a back-migration, by the way, but despite thinking a lot about how it got back to Asia, I'm still stumped. How yes no and I have talked a bit about it on this forum and figured that Crete could have been an important place along its migration path, and that its spread must have something to do with seafaring. It could have started its migration as far away as Germany, as that's around where its brother clusters are centered.


Yes, you are right I am I2c now :)
As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta.
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)

Bodin
15-09-11, 00:38
Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf

According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .

That paper shows for Tatars 1,6% of I M170 ( undetermined I ) , 0,8% of I M253 (I1 - Germanic ) , and 2,4% of I P37( I2a1b -Dinaric ) , all together 4,8% of I , and paper that I posted 16% of " Balkanic " I . That is probably because your paper speack about all Tatars , and mine only about Kazan Tatars .
What is more important there is NO I M223 - I2b amongst Tatars

Kardu
15-09-11, 00:39
According to just published Yunusbayev et al. paper there is some I2a among Andis, Lezgins, Kara Nogays, Abazins, Adyghe, Balkars, Abnhazians, Kabardins, Karachays, Georgians and Ossetians. This might indicate Sarmatian origins.

Bodin
15-09-11, 00:42
Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.

Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.

EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:

I1a = I1
I1b = I2

That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.
Yes I1a in this paper is nowadays I1 , and I1b* is nowadays I2a1b ( former I2a2 Din ) , look at designations M253 and P37

Kardu
15-09-11, 00:43
Our data on a STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree generated bu Marko Heinila's calculator. Note there are many Europeans there.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8968/ksydna.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/ksydna.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Bodin
15-09-11, 00:50
Yes, you are right I am I2c now :)
As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta.
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)
Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings

Bodin
15-09-11, 00:54
Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:

UPDATE III (No European influence):

Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s400/don_river.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V700ZneaFEo/Tc-qAunJh8I/AAAAAAAADuU/l52gW61JtqI/s1600/don_river.png)
It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).


This seems to put a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.


Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html
Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also Russians

Kardu
15-09-11, 01:00
Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings

There are at least 2 Bulgarians on that tree. Of course it's not many.

Bodin
15-09-11, 01:11
There are at least 2 Bulgarians on that tree. Of course it's not many.
Thanks for sharing that knowledge , so we could asume that I2c lived on Balkans since Paleolithe , and we should ask Paleolithic I1a1b-Din somewhere else . Thanks for answering

sparkey
15-09-11, 01:19
Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings

If there is I2c in the Balkans, it is exceedingly rare. The FTDNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=yresults) has members (all in the same young B cluster as the Armenians and Georgians) from Ukraine, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Russia, Poland, Belarus... so it may be more accurate to say Carpathian or broadly East European than Balkan.

sparkey
15-09-11, 01:24
Thanks for sharing that knowledge , so we could asume that I2c lived on Balkans since Paleolithe , and we should ask Paleolithic I1a1b-Din somewhere else . Thanks for answering

I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf). That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.

Kardu
15-09-11, 01:54
I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf). That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.

According to that STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree the oldest I2 cluster/trmrca appear to be in Scotland/England/Spain. As to the old I2* people, my line is a standalone and TMRCA with the rest is about 3000 years old.

Cobol19
15-09-11, 10:30
Maciamo made it on this forum

What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.


now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b?
Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
Thanks for answeringYour mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.

The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:15
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)
Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!

BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!

Goga
15-09-11, 15:19
and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.
No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.

Cobol19
15-09-11, 15:34
No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.

If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).

Goga
15-09-11, 15:39
If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).
How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.
Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.

According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!

Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.

GloomyGonzales
15-09-11, 15:51
Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also Russians

1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html)

2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.

Cobol19
15-09-11, 15:54
How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.

Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.

According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!

There was no such thing as Iranian people in West Asia before 1500 BC, if you're referring to the Mitanni, their records indicate that they were Indo-Aryans (Similar to the Sanskrit folks that migrated to India), not Iranians, though even that is still debatable, but for the sake of whatever Indo-Iranian words were found, they were Indo-Aryan words.

As far as how I know where the Medes/Persian came from, before they were known as Medes or Persians, they were ancient Iranian tribes, the most leading theory on the homeland of the Iranian people is the BMAC (Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex), this falls around modern day Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan/Tajikistan, not to mention that the name for this region during those times was "Aria", which is the title that these Medes and Persians used to call themselves, there was no such name in Ukraine/Russia, so if you think that's where they came from, you're wrong.


Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.Never said they were, and for the record, I never dismissed haplogroup I* being included among ancient Medes, I just said this haplogroup is not an original Iranic lineage, meaning it was incorporated into the Iranian population in West Asia and not come from their ancestral lands, because if this lineage was Iranic all along it would exist among Eastern Iranians too, but that's not the case.

Goga
15-09-11, 15:59
Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

Cobol19
15-09-11, 16:08
Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

That was a stupid comment, where in any of my posts indicates that I'm a Kurdish hater? On the contrary, I always look forward for Kurdish DNA results, what I am is someone who is not biased, I'm interested in real facts and will tell like like how I see it.


Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061

Goga
15-09-11, 16:15
I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranics. And proto-Iranics where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks.
So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where the proto-Indo-Europeans came from.
I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!

Cobol19
15-09-11, 16:25
Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranic. And proto-Iranic where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks.
So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where proto-Indo-European came from.
I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!

You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).

Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.

Goga
15-09-11, 16:31
You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).

Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.

Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.

If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.

I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!

Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?

Alan
15-09-11, 16:52
I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

Alan
15-09-11, 16:59
How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.


Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.

Cobol19
15-09-11, 16:59
What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.

Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.


Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.

Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.


If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.

Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.


I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!

I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.


Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?

I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.

Alan
15-09-11, 17:02
Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were proto-Indo-Iranic. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

Please calm down and behave yourself better. Sometimes you seem very paranoid. I dont know what the problem is, he insulted Kurds just because he was not with your opinion? The Mitannis belonged to the same wave of Aryans which migrated INTO India NOT out of India. This is only a wishful thinking of Indocentrist. The Mitanni scripts are as old as those from Sanskrit India. Mitanni and Sanskrit both probably belonged to the same wave but have gone different ways.

Cobol19
15-09-11, 17:05
I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.

The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.

Alan
15-09-11, 17:14
You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.

The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.

This is also a possibility.

About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved. If we take out the very recent East Asian gene flow from this region, than it remain only the West Asian(ANI included) and North European component. What indicates a West Asian-North European fusion which created the Proto-Iranians.

I already explained this here.

the "North European" gene came most probably when the Iranic tribes which evolved from the Andronovo culture, which was a secession of the Yamna Culture. The Yamna culture itself evolved as a cross between the PIE European Maykop culture and native European hunters and gatherers. The Kurgan culture was based on Maykop culture thats why the Kurgans are also sometimes reffered as Maykop culture.

So when this Kurgan culture, which was based on Maykop and native hunters and gatherers expanded to the East and formed the Andronovo culture, the Aryan(Indo Iranic) tribes evolved. Those Aryan tribes belonged mainly to the West Asian and North European components. Those Aryan tribes mixed with the native Populations of the Regions they moved to. in Kurdish case it was the Gutians/Phrygians/Hurrians for example. Thats why you find among Kurds more North European component than among non partly Iranic tribes(and even Iranians)

Cobol19
15-09-11, 17:28
This is also a possibility.

About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was most probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved.

I already explained this here.

I think we pretty much agree on the bigger picture, I too believe the Indo-Europeans lived around the Yamna Culture which prior to that, perhaps a clan of men dominated by R1a1a arrived from Anatolia through the Caucasus (In this case, the PIE being the Maykop culture as you suggested), from there the Andronovo folks developed into Proto-Indo-Iranian, and by interaction with the BMAC natives the Indo-Iranians developed, those who separated earlier and migrated down to India became the Indo-Aryans (Which some of them may have migrated to West Asia in the form of Mitanni), later on from the same area the Iranian expansions take place all over, to West Asia in the form of Medes/Persians (Later on Parthians), and to other parts such as the Eurasian steppes, Central Asia, Siberia, and even West Asia in the form of Scythians, also other Iranian groups that remained around the homeland were Sogdians, Bactrians etc.

Kardu
15-09-11, 17:33
Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!

BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!

Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi :) Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...

Goga
15-09-11, 18:02
Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi :) Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!

Goga
15-09-11, 18:10
Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.Ok. thanks.

Of course I know Buttho. She was very proud that her mom was Kurdish.


I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.My friend, you're free to think what ever you want. But there's a possibility that the ancient proto-Iranic folks were West Asian or had much West Asian DNA! And that proto-IE folks had many West Asian DNA too.

So West Asian DNA in Kurds is not ONLY from the Hurrians but also from Iranic peoples.

Kardu
15-09-11, 18:29
Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!

:) Why would they be? Anything is possible...

Goga
15-09-11, 18:43
:) Why would they be? Anything is possible...

True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!

Kardu
15-09-11, 19:28
True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!

I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too:)

Goga
15-09-11, 20:15
I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too:)
Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in 4th century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.

But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.

Kardu
15-09-11, 20:24
Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in 4th century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.

But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.

Considering that we have in Georgia a Jewish community with well-documented history of 26 centuries, Bagrationis' claim might had some ground.
There are graves of pre-tvelfth century kings in Georgia, perhaps one day we'll be allowed to conduct paleo-dna analysis and the truth will be known.

Bodin
16-09-11, 00:31
I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are very Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf). That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.
Thats interesting thanks for sharing.

Bodin
16-09-11, 00:38
What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.

Your mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.

The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.
Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.