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Taranis
07-09-11, 18:54
As recently discussed in the thread about Ötzi, the origins of E1b in Europe are - for the greater part - quite mysterious. By it's distribution patterns we might speculated in the past that it is somehow linked to a Neolithic expansion, but since then it has been shown to absent in Neolithic sites.

One major problem is that E1b reaches considerable frequencies in some parts of Europe (western Iberia, central-northern France and especially the Balkans) which cannot be satisfiably linked to archaeological cultures.

What is it that we are missing here?

Goga
07-09-11, 19:00
The Afrocentric people always have been telling us that the original ancient Greeks were Africans. Maybe they're right and are telling the true that the very first original and native Greeks were E1b folks.

Taranis
07-09-11, 19:04
The Afrocentric people always has been telling us that the original ancient Greeks were Africans. Maybe they’re right and are telling the and that the very first original and native Greeks were E1b folks.

Here's the problem. It's not just the Greeks. If you look at the distribution we are talking about a wide arc from Iberia to France to the Balkans with fairly high concentrations. I mean, yes, without a doubt E1b came from Africa and then probably spread into the Near East, and from there into Europe. But when and how?

The idea that E1b is mainly Neolithic is definitely a very good one, but as I mentioned, no sample of E1b in Europe turned up thus far from the Neolithic, so we must speculate that it arrived later, at least in Western and Central Europe.

Goga
07-09-11, 19:13
I mean that the ancient Greeks (that were predominantly E1b folks) brought E1b to Europe. Later they mixed with the Northern Europeans (Germanic & Slavic tribes) and the Levantines (J2 people).

E1b in the Near East is from the Levant. The Levant is close to Africa (Egypt) and Greece...

sparkey
07-09-11, 19:24
Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.

Ferreira posted some interesting maps (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26579-The-Haplogroup-E-in-Europe.) (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).

Taranis
07-09-11, 19:34
Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.

Well, you have a point. I absolutely also agree that we need to take a close look at the various subclades. Regarding E-M81, given how it has very high concentrations amongst the Berbers in North Africa, one could speculate that it originates from the Moorish period in Iberia. However, we see some of the highest concentrations in northern Iberia - areas which arguably had the least Moorish influence, whereas if this was mainly of Moorish influence we would see the highest concentrations in Andalusia. In addition, we also see fairly high E-M81 in France, which in combination with northern Iberia suggests there must be an older source of E-M81.


Ferreira posted some interesting maps (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26579-The-Haplogroup-E-in-Europe.) (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).

Well, if you mean that you are tired of the discussions about the Africanness or Un-Europeanness of Iberians, I wholheartedly agree that I am tired of those. :laughing:

Knovas
07-09-11, 19:57
Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.

Cambrius (The Red)
07-09-11, 20:29
Is "we have no idea and need more ancient samples" too unsatisfying an answer here? I think that the most likely explanation is that E1b was a minority haplogroup within several populations, including the Neolithic farmers. High concentrations in certain places could be the result of expansions of small samples of those populations. It will have to be case-by-case as well, as E-V13 and E-M81 have very different patterns in Europe.

Ferreira posted some interesting maps (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26579-The-Haplogroup-E-in-Europe.) (and no, Iberians, I'm not saying I agree with Ferreira on everything about Haplogroup E, just that he posted some interesting maps).

I don't think you will find many (reasonable) people on Eupedia agreeing with that guy.

sparkey
07-09-11, 21:49
Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.

I think it's pretty much consensus that French and northern Iberian E-M81 is somehow ancient. It's quite difficult to pin down the when and how, though. What's most likely? From Anatolia in a wave that predated E-M78's spread? From North Africa during the Neolithic, or maybe the Bronze Age? How distinct is French E-M81 from North African E-M81, do they share an equal amount of diversity, or is French E-M81 apparently a branch off of North African E-M81? Because I can imagine a simultaneous westward migration to both places and subsequent replacement where it originated, but otherwise it's difficult to imagine anything other than a migration straight from North Africa.

Wilhelm
07-09-11, 22:32
And the presence of E1b in Europe, people seem to forget about Central Europe, countries like Austria or Switzerland have more E1b than Spain for example.

Taranis
07-09-11, 22:49
And the presence of E1b in Europe, people seem to forget about Central Europe, countries like Austria or Switzerland have more E1b than Spain for example.

Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north)!

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

I would like to add that I agree on the likely ancientness of E1b, especially in northern Iberia.

One very peculiar pattern about E1b in general are the "clean-swept" if you will areas in Western Europe that include the Basque Country, the entire French Atlantic region and the British Isles. It should be noted that Haplogroup T largely shows the same pattern, and that there appears to be correlation between E1b and T.

Wilhelm
07-09-11, 23:14
Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north).
Im not talking of specific spot areas, but of overall countries. See the table of Eupedia. Austria or Switzerland have 9% while Spain 7%

Dorianfinder
08-09-11, 00:13
As recently discussed in the thread about Ötzi, the origins of E1b in Europe are - for the greater part - quite mysterious. By it's distribution patterns we might speculated in the past that it is somehow linked to a Neolithic expansion, but since then it has been shown to absent in Neolithic sites.

One major problem is that E1b reaches considerable frequencies in some parts of Europe (western Iberia, central-northern France and especially the Balkans) which cannot be satisfiably linked to archaeological cultures.

What is it that we are missing here?
http://web.mac.com/brevort1/Socialstudies/World_History_Chapter_4_files/droppedImage_2.png
European Haplozone E-V13 expansion is somewhere in the Aegean Bronze Age.

E-V13 in Aromuns (Vlachs) has a common est. tmrca to the Roman era, consistent with the idea that they are Balkan natives who became Latinized linguistically at around that era.

Albanian E-V13 also has a common est. tmrca to Roman/Late antiquity, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity but rather indicates a founder effect during the time of the Romans.

Finally, Slav-Macedonians with E-V13 have an est. tmrca time well into AD times, at around the time of the first Slavic arrivals in the Balkans. This suggests that E-V13 in them is the result of local founders at around that time who adopted the Slavic language.

STR variance is higher in Greece, Greek Macedonia, and Apulia, all areas with well-known historical Greek connections.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Bodin
08-09-11, 02:38
For Balkans E1b I would say it is Illyrian ( so as the Messapi in Italy ) , and Peleshet ( they descendants from movings of People From The Sea are Palestinians - Philisteans in Bible ) .
About arrival time of E1b1b in Europe both via Africa-Iberia - north or via Asia Minor - Balkans - north I would put it in late Neolithe , maybe even early bronze age , especialy in it later stages - from Balkan and Iberia diper in Europe .
We shouldnt forget one more entry point in Europe and that is Italy by ships in early Neolithe , and later ariving of millions slaves from Syrria , they were especially numerous in Sicilly ,which is showen in several slave revolutions on Sicily.
Roman empire also had big role in spreain E1b1b in to Europe from south to north

Sile
08-09-11, 09:23
Where are you taking that from? E1b exceeds 15% in many parts of the Iberian penninsula (especially in the north)!

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

I would like to add that I agree on the likely ancientness of E1b, especially in northern Iberia.

One very peculiar pattern about E1b in general are the "clean-swept" if you will areas in Western Europe that include the Basque Country, the entire French Atlantic region and the British Isles. It should be noted that Haplogroup T largely shows the same pattern, and that there appears to be correlation between E1b and T.


how much is this E1b, greek . ?
Theodoros II despot of Morea ( 1407- 1443) brought in 50000 albanians into the Morea in his reign. they even revolted later

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morea_revolt_of_1453%E2%80%931454

These numbers represent 40% of the morean population not including the Venetian strongholds.

40% of albanian E1b will greatly tilt the dna of the area.

Also, the area in kosovo would be a dardanian haplogroup . Some say they where illyric tribes other scholars say they where mixed with Thracians and not illyrians.

crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup

Dorianfinder
08-09-11, 12:37
how much is this E1b, greek . ?


crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup

The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.

Sile
09-09-11, 08:28
The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.

interesting , G2 played a part in containing the spread. Could G2 contain also the spread of I2a1 from basque are to the alps?

phoenix
04-10-11, 20:47
there is a lot of study to be made! to explain some messy things

Ramses II
24-02-12, 03:33
Haplogroups show ancient migrations, and E subclades are enough old to have reached Europe a very long time ago. I think the vast majority of E subclades that can be found in Europe belonged to African Caucasoids, peoples who were clearly different from the Sub-Saharan Africans. Then, it's not that rare to get into Europe from there via the Near East, and probably they were good saylors too.

Knovas is onto something here. The entire "E" haplogroup is representative of Caucasoids - or more specifically Eurasians. It's not a negroid haplogroup, since negroids acquired E much later. Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

"And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168.More evocatively, he could be seen as the Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

"As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." Spencer Wells; 2002


"the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin." (Chandrasekar; 2007)

zanipolo
26-03-12, 07:32
A recent link in thread "I2a how did it get to the balkans", was about E HG in Britain, while reading that link I came across the Thracian Bessi people.
Further reasearch and knowledge In the veneto, there is a town called Loria which has never exceeded 10000 people in its history , it has 3 Frazione "suburbs" of which one is called Bessica
Bessica (Bèsega in veneto (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_veneta)) è una frazione del Comune di Loria (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loria) (da cui dista 2,76 km (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilometro)) in Provincia di Treviso (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Treviso). L'omonima parrocchia (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrocchia) dipende dalla diocesi di Treviso (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocesi_di_Treviso) (vicariato (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicariato) di Castello di Godego (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castello_di_Godego)).

historical research says that the whole thracian tribe of the bessi in thrace (Edirne) was uprooted by the Romans in 98AD and moved to Loria to fill the void of the Eugenai ( stoeni and Camuni tribes ) who moved further in the alps replacing the Venosti ( raeti tribe). The Roman information says 1 legion of people ( a legion as far as i know was 5025 souls) moved to the veneto.

What I want to know is if these thracian carried E1b M-78 markers as it seems this is the main marker of the Veneti in that area.
This marker is also the same in wales, cornwall and anglia in Britain along with E-V13.

This Loria area ( western area, treviso province in the veneto ) produced great venetian families, like, Loredan, Zen, Contarin and Da Mosto - whos ancestor discovered west Africa for the Portuguese in 1451 ( first 3 names all where once doges of venice)

My mother who was born 10k north of Loria always said that the people of Loria had a distinct venetian accent.

Knovas
26-03-12, 14:48
Knovas is onto something here. The entire "E" haplogroup is representative of Caucasoids - or more specifically Eurasians. It's not a negroid haplogroup, since negroids acquired E much later. Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

"And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168.More evocatively, he could be seen as the Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

"As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." Spencer Wells; 2002


"the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin." (Chandrasekar; 2007)
In the North African admixture thread has been discussed the later experiment made by Dienekes', showing West Eurasian influence in deep Sub-Saharan populations. It's noticeable that the mentioned populations with higher amounts of E, seem to be more Eurasian than the ones with higher haplogroup A & B frequencies. You can check the thread for details, as well as Dienekes' blog: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/dual-origins-of-sub-saharan-africans.html

LeBrok
26-03-12, 16:37
Middle East was the first place where Homo Sapiens from Africa met Neanderthals, his close cousin from Homo Erectus line. One can say that this was the firs mingling place or first adaptation of Sapiens to new climatic and nutritional conditions. Middle East is the place where we should see the first big shifts and haplogroup changes in out of Africa scenario.

Eldritch
19-04-12, 16:09
I think E1b in Balkans is connected with Illyryans but there's one thing that puzzles me.
Did they come as Neolithic farmers and then retired into Mountains cause of Slavic migrations?

Dianatomia
20-04-12, 16:53
how much is this E1b, greek . ?
Theodoros II despot of Morea ( 1407- 1443) brought in 50000 albanians into the Morea in his reign. they even revolted later


These numbers represent 40% of the morean population not including the Venetian strongholds.

40% of albanian E1b will greatly tilt the dna of the area.

Also, the area in kosovo would be a dardanian haplogroup . Some say they where illyric tribes other scholars say they where mixed with Thracians and not illyrians.

crete, epirus and greek macedonian hardly has this haplogroup

Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

Yetos
20-04-12, 19:09
Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

Correct the data according Arbanites Clubs are about 60 000 of Attica Spetses Theba Arbanites from 1200 AD about, with 20 000 still speaking Arbanitika

also Gives about 50 000 Klefto-arbanites mainly in Epirus Thessaly from which still 10 000 speak kleftoarbanitika

and about 30-40 000 Aromani from Albania in Makedonia (Arbanto-Vlachs) from area of Moschopolis which primary language is Aromani.

zanipolo
20-04-12, 22:27
Venetian sources say that there were around 30000 Albanians in the Morea in the mid 15th century. The population of the Morea during that time is estimated to be around 350000. According to travelers and historians, ever since 1850, the population of Arvanites in the whole of Greece is estimated to be between 50000 and 200000.

Arvanites came from southern Albania, which has significantly less E1b compared to the Pelopponese.

your numbers seem very high for the period. There are euro census on people numbers from the year 1410, with germany 16M, italy 13M, france 14M, spain 6M, england 5m and greece 1.2M etc etc , 350000 for morea is a third of the entire greek population, you can be correct but its doubtful especially as the ottomans , killed, destroyed villages, ruined the very profitable silk industry and also warred for centuries agains the morean mani people

Dianatomia
23-04-12, 23:34
your numbers seem very high for the period. There are euro census on people numbers from the year 1410, with germany 16M, italy 13M, france 14M, spain 6M, england 5m and greece 1.2M etc etc , 350000 for morea is a third of the entire greek population, you can be correct but its doubtful especially as the ottomans , killed, destroyed villages, ruined the very profitable silk industry and also warred for centuries agains the morean mani people

Would you like to post a link for your data. Based on the data I've seen that there were around 4.5 mil Greeks between 15th and 18th century (compare: 1 mil Armenians). This of course includes Greeks from Asia Minor and the Islands.
1.2 Mil could only hold true for mainland Greece (incl. Morea) in that respect.

There were even more Greeks before the 14th century. Historically, Greeks were very numerous. Especially compared to what they are today. In the 2nd century AD, there were 6 mil Greeks in Greece and Asia Minor, while the world population was around 200 million. The Turks are not really responsible for a sharp decline of the Greek population, but rather a lack of growth in comparison to other populations.

zanipolo
24-04-12, 09:03
Would you like to post a link for your data. Based on the data I've seen that there were around 4.5 mil Greeks between 15th and 18th century (compare: 1 mil Armenians). This of course includes Greeks from Asia Minor and the Islands.
1.2 Mil could only hold true for mainland Greece (incl. Morea) in that respect.

There were even more Greeks before the 14th century. Historically, Greeks were very numerous. Especially compared to what they are today. In the 2nd century AD, there were 6 mil Greeks in Greece and Asia Minor, while the world population was around 200 million. The Turks are not really responsible for a sharp decline of the Greek population, but rather a lack of growth in comparison to other populations.

data is from 2 books

1 - The new cambridge modern history I

2 - The mediterrateraen book I and book II by Fernand Braudel

Dianatomia
24-04-12, 10:23
data is from 2 books

1 - The new cambridge modern history I

2 - The mediterrateraen book I and book II by Fernand Braudel

Thanks for the sources.

here are some other useful links:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

And this useful Wiki link which is based on the "Atlas of World Population History".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Greece

It seems the estimates you proposed are based on geography i.e. the Greek peninsula or Greece proper. Not the Greek population as a whole. As for the Peloponesse, it was one of the most densely populated regions of Greece proper in medieval times.

Another source:
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm

zanipolo
24-04-12, 21:46
Thanks for the sources.

here are some other useful links:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.asp

And this useful Wiki link which is based on the "Atlas of World Population History".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Greece

It seems the estimates you proposed are based on geography i.e. the Greek peninsula or Greece proper. Not the Greek population as a whole. As for the Peloponesse, it was one of the most densely populated regions of Greece proper in medieval times.

Another source:
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm

notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

Yetos
25-04-12, 04:03
notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

Christians and Diseases

Christians

The greatest massacres of Greeks and depopulation had hapened by Christians and diseases, especially after 370 AD to 800 AD
estimation of 4 000 000 Greeks to be executed in the name of Jesus,
search Skythopolis, Σκυθοπολις,
today the name is Beth She'an
read the Constance B' orders and laws,

Placuit omnibus locis atque urbibus universis claudi protinus templa et accessu vetito omnibus licentiam deliquendi perditis abnegari. Volumus etiam cunctos sacrificiis abstinere. Quod si quis aliquid forte huiusmodi perpetraverit, gladio ultore sternatur. Facultates etiam perempti fisco decernimus vindicari et similiter puniri rectores provinciarum, si facinora vindicare neglexerint»

"Res Gestae Libri XXXI"

the story is saved by Αμμιανος Μαρκελινος
Ammianos Marcelinos or something like that
NAZI camp were nothing compare to it,
Holy inquisitors will Envy
a witch hunters paradise


the stories also exist in Christian chronicles of Σωζομενός
about the act of Pope of Alexandreia George Γεωργιος,


Greeks hide in North Balkans but Byzantine hired Goths and Alarih who burned down 80 towns for more than 40 years

http://xemandrios1.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post_1484.html
(http://xemandrios1.blogspot.com/2011/01/blog-post_1484.html)

and since you do not understand Greek read in English


http://ethnikoi.org/katastrofi.htm

http://ethnikoi.org/persecutions.html


Greeks moved to West Roman parts but and there Ονουριος Honorius is the same

the massacre last Long enough, even after the Schisma.

DISEASES

Just consider how the above effect the Genetical Data,

and also loss of Medical, since the only Doctor is 'God' and the one who use medicines is a witch, a pagan, only pray save and cure, all the rest knowledge are Diabolic

only in Athens we have 2 depopulation from diseases until 911 AD and one 3rd at about 4rth Crusade.
But these diseases Saved the monuments since to many local people become a taboo to destroy them cause after a disease comes.


590 Era vulgaris
Rome
Pope of Rome Gregorios (the great) order to burn down the last working biblioteque the Apollonian
the last storage of ancient texts



the total estimation of Greek Holocaust is estimated 4 000 000 by some to 19 000 000 by others,
It is the biggest genocide ever done.

Dianatomia
25-04-12, 17:43
notice in your first link, the greece+balkans had 5M in 500AD, lost 2M by 650AD and gained again, mostly likely when the slavic migrations happened after 650AD.
What was the 2M loss, Romans or Goths departing??

The quantitative fluctuation of the population during that time is not a Greek/Balkan phenomenon, but it is also detectable in other areas of Europe, Asia Minor and North Africa.

In any case, it is known that the Plague of Justinian (541-542) was one of the worst plagues in history. The Byzantine Empire lost almost a quarter of its population because of the plague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian

Also, as Yetos mentioned, the spread of Christianity played its part. And it was a very important one.

The Slavic settlers could not have been so numerous so as to double the population of the Balkans. If you look at the third link you'll notice that Eastern Europe and Russia had 3 M people in 450 A.D. Not enough to repopulate the much more densely populated Byzantine world during that time. But they may have had an impact.

albanopolis
02-05-13, 03:15
The Battaglia study found 19.3% E1b-V13 in Greek Macedonians. In the King study, elaborated on by Myres et al. later on, found 35.1% E1b-V13 in Thessaly (Sesklo-Dimini). On the island of Crete, King et al. found 7% suggesting that the elevated levels of G2 in the mountains may have played a part in containing the spread of E there.
Good point. The mountains block the spread of haplogroups. So haplogroup spread is the same like the wind. A mountain in front the wind stops.

albanopolis
02-05-13, 03:18
I think E1b in Balkans is connected with Illyryans but there's one thing that puzzles me.
Did they come as Neolithic farmers and then retired into Mountains cause of Slavic migrations?
Its pellazgs, not Illyrian. Illyrians had J2 admixture and R1b,

adamo
02-05-13, 04:09
I believe certain types of pelasgians where E3b and others where J2.

MOESAN
02-05-13, 23:08
4 000 000 GREEKS killed for the sake of Jesus??? Hard to believe (not the possibility of cruel acts but the huge number...)

Pelasgians? Who were they: every kind of people is constantly put under this name without any proof (even if good sense could help to imagine sensible hypothesis, seen as bets only)

Illyrians Y-J2 et Y-R1b, AND only??? on what basis??? magicians???

adamo
02-05-13, 23:47
No pelasgians where strictly not R1b. Some of their groups where J2, other different unassociated groups where E3b.

albanopolis
03-05-13, 00:02
4 000 000 GREEKS killed for the sake of Jesus??? Hard to believe (not the possibility of cruel acts but the huge number...)

Pelasgians? Who were they: every kind of people is constantly put under this name without any proof (even if good sense could help to imagine sensible hypothesis, seen as bets only)

Illyrians Y-J2 et Y-R1b, AND only??? on what basis??? magicians???Greek historians wrote that Pellasgians were the people inhabiting the region of west Turkey, Greece, Albania, Southern Italy, before the rest came. Hellenic historians wrote about their presence. All remains today from Pellasgs are some toponims. Example: Larissa in Greece, Lissus in Albania and some others

adamo
03-05-13, 00:26
Larissa is linked to the word Lori , a region of Armenia home of the J2 pelasgians, a similar derivative name is Larino in Italy. Also there is an Ionian greek Cumae in southern Italy, Cumae on western coast of Anatolia and Cumae in Azerbaijan. Not to mention Cumae in pelasgian Euboea island of Greece. For one reason or another the Etruscans allied with the dauni subgroup of iapygians and aurunci also allied the self against expanding cumaean colonists. This may pertain to a link between iapygians ( dauni and in particular) and Etruscans. More recently, iapygians arrived from Crete to southern Italy, but further in time they are linked ( daunus and peucetis) as sons of Lycaon from lycaonia ( south central turkey) thus pertaining to a direct middle eastern link for Etruscans. Also, there is lucania in south Italy, basilicata district, an ancient province probably linked to Lycian/ lycaonians middle easterners. The capital of ancient lucania was Tursi; last names Turco and Greco run high in and near this region. The first middle easterners to arrive in that area in fact are believed to be the oenotrians, heavy wine producers as ancient Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Turks where. The oenotrians stretched once from paestum campania to Calabria; oenotrius was another of the 50 sons linked to Lycaon from lycaonia. He was one of the youngest sons....they arrived in Italy in 1100 B.C., long before the later coming Greeks and before the Etruscans. A little bit of "Cuma" stretches from the shores of southern Italy to Azerbaijan....

albanopolis
03-05-13, 00:44
Larissa is linked to the word Lori , a region of Armenia home of the J2 pelasgians, a similar derivative name is Larino in Italy. Also there is an Ionian greek Cumae in southern Italy, Cumae on western coast of Anatolia and Cumae in Azerbaijan. Not to mention Cumae in pelasgian Euboea island of Greece. For one reason or another the Etruscans allied with the dauni subgroup of iapygians and au ruin allied the self against expanding cumaean colonists. This may pertain to a link between iapygians ( dauni and in particular) and Etruscans. More recently, iapygians arrived from Crete to southern Italy, but further in time they are linked ( daunus and peucetis) as sons of Lycaon from lycaonia ( south central turkey) thus pertaining to a direct middle eastern link for Etruscans. Also, there is lucania in south Italy, basilicata district, an ancient province probably linked to Lycian/ lycaonians middle easterners. The capital of ancient lucania was Tursi; last names Turco and Greco run high in and near this region. The first middle easterners to arrive in that area in fact are believed to be the oenotrians, heavy wine producers as ancient Georgians, Azeris, Armenians, Turks where. The oenotrians stretched once from paestum campania to Calabria; oenotrius was another of the 50 sons linked to Lycaon from lycaonia. He was one of the youngest sons....they arrived in Italy in 1100 B.C., long before the later coming Greeks and before the Etruscans. A little bit of "Cuma" stretches from the shores of southern Italy to Azerbaijan.... Are these documented sources? Because the presence of Pellasgians is documented.

adamo
03-05-13, 00:56
I wrote that myself, yes it's all factual information, no I don't have sources.

Yetos
03-05-13, 04:54
Greek historians wrote that Pellasgians were the people inhabiting the region of west Turkey, Greece, Albania, Southern Italy, before the rest came. Hellenic historians wrote about their presence. All remains today from Pellasgs are some toponims. Example: Larissa in Greece, Lissus in Albania and some others

no not southern Italy, but central North Italy,

Etruscans are connected with Pelasgians,

we possibly speak of Hattians (at least for me the only explanation)

and yes Pelasgians are connected with 2 possible theories of ancestral origin in linguistic terms,

1) is Akkadian + Summerian, (I have wrote about that influence in Balkans)
2) South Caucasian (Taranis defend that Idea in linguistic)

for example Summerian Kur Greek κορυφη(kur+ υβος) south Slavic Goran(jie)
is AkkadoSummerian

but Hath+ru (Αθ/Ατ + ρω) is showing south Caucas origin,
Attica = Hath+con
Hatria = hath + ρω
Etruscan = hatth + ρω+con
yet it is difficult to compare since the pelasgian language knowledge is limited
but we know for example La = stone (Lapis)

adamo
03-05-13, 11:41
The iapygians of apulia where pelasgians from Crete, and Anatolia before. There was an ancient pre-Etruscan and less successful J2 substratum across parts of south Italy even before the greek colonizers arrived, from people such as oenotrians, chones etc.

MOESAN
04-05-13, 19:32
SOME of greek historians yes - by I think I red that even some previous groups of Greeks were named like that by more recent groups... all the way, even if taking in account the description you mention it does not tell us what ethnicity and language were attached to it... I-E (by example: anatolian ones like louwites or lydians) OR non-I-E ? (possibly akin to pre-Etruscans?)
-
so the term still remains obscure and confusing: the term exists but the complete meaning escapes to us

adamo
04-05-13, 22:54
No previous group of Greeks where referred to as iapygians, other than Iapyx who was a mythical figure from Crete.The name of the iapygians themselves is derived from Iapyx, son of Lycaon from Lycaonia ( south-central turkey). This is how an anAtolian group of men spread from Anatolia ( lycaonians where related to lycians, Carians, Lydians) the iapygians originated from Crete from these middle eastern people's and spread to Crete from where some of them heading to Sicily ended up landing their boats on the western coast of apulia.

albanopolis
09-05-13, 21:52
SOME of greek historians yes - by I think I red that even some previous groups of Greeks were named like that by more recent groups... all the way, even if taking in account the description you mention it does not tell us what ethnicity and language were attached to it... I-E (by example: anatolian ones like louwites or lydians) OR non-I-E ? (possibly akin to pre-Etruscans?)
-
so the term still remains obscure and confusing: the term exists but the complete meaning escapes to us
Its not obscure the term,no. Pellazgs and Hellens coexisted for thousand of years. Historians mention them up to 2000 B.C. They were separate entity up to that point. After that no longer is heard about them. That means they were outnumbered by Hellens, Illyrians, Thracians etc... There is no doubt about their existence. Archaeologists note that they had distinct pottery.