PDA

View Full Version : European Races



Dorianfinder
11-09-11, 13:49
European Racial Types according to Ripley
Alpine (Celtic): Round Head - Broad Face - Light Chestnut Hair - Hazel or Gray Medium Eyes - Stocky Variable Stature

Mediterranean: Long Head - Long Face - Dark Brown or Black Hair - Dark Medium Eyes - Slender Stature

Nordic/Scandinavian/Teutonic: Long Head - Long Face - Very Light Hair - Blue Eyes - Tall Narrow Stature

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_4.jpg/800px-Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_4.jpg

Knovas
11-09-11, 15:12
Sorry, but this classification it's quite inaccurate. There are more detailed ways to clasify, as for example this website: http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/index2.htm

It looks quite nordicist in my eyes in some aspects, but I think it's a substantial improve.

According to the one you posted, I'm predominantly Alpine, just with Dark Brown hair (Mediterranean). However, my best definition I think it's Atlanto-Med:

1.75, dark brown hair as I mentioned, very fair skin and blue eyes. Some of my facial traits, as the nose, lips or ears, are probably typical Mediterranean, but the Atlantic impact it's very strong.

I'll select Alpine, but I think we must consider other groups as I said.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-09-11, 15:46
The map posted is filled with inaccuracies and has little relevance today. The appropriate thing to do is use the recently produced autosomal DNA maps.

Personally, I'm Celtic with mainly Atlantid and CM characteristics.

Knovas
11-09-11, 15:53
You know, it's the typical 19-20th century map XD

Iberia has a huge Celtic impact already proved in admixture analysis. I agree that with autosomal DNA we'll obtain maps, by far, more accurate than this one. Euroegenes is actually better than Dodecad to do so, since focusses more in European groups.

Dorianfinder
11-09-11, 17:53
You know, it's the typical 19-20th century map XD

Iberia has a huge Celtic impact already proved in admixture analysis. I agree that with autosomal DNA we'll obtain maps, by far, more accurate than this one. Euroegenes is actually better than Dodecad to do so, since focusses more in European groups.

I posted the above map as it's author Madison Grant proposed in his book, 'The Passing of the Great Race' (1916) that Alpine peoples are the most populous of European and West Asian races. The above poll is to verify or disprove this theory of his.

Knovas
11-09-11, 18:09
I see Dorian. Well, it's not bad, the problem is that it's too general. Of course in general terms he was probably right about Alpines/Celts. However, the Iberian side it's completely wrong, since Celtic/Proto-Celtic peoples had a huge impact there.

Dorianfinder
11-09-11, 20:01
I see Dorian. Well, it's not bad, the problem is that it's too general. Of course in general terms he was probably right about Alpines/Celts. However, the Iberian side it's completely wrong, since Celtic/Proto-Celtic peoples had a huge impact there.

Madison Grant goes on to say exactly what you state above, and displays the following map to elaborate.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg/800px-Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg

Knovas
11-09-11, 20:21
This one looks better. It's easy to infer that Iberia is Atlanto-Med with some kind of Germanic/Ancient Northeast Euro influence.

Another thing I'm not agree is atributing blue eyes only to Nordics according to the descriptions. Blue eyes are quite present among Celtic nations, not necesarily must be hazel/gray. For this reason I did not consider myself as part Nordic, although I reported some low scores on admixture. The vast majority I got was North Atlantic followed by Southern+Western Euro.

PD: I supose in this map Celtics are represented in the Continental Nordics group, just a difference that must be considered.

Dorianfinder
11-09-11, 20:37
This one looks better. It's easy to infer that Iberia is Atlanto-Med with some kind of Germanic/Ancient Northeast Euro influence.

Another thing I'm not agree is atributing blue eyes only to Nordics according to the descriptions. Blue eyes are quite present among Celtic nations, not necesarily must be hazel/gray. For this reason I did not consider myself as part Nordic, although I reported some low scores on admixture. The vast majority I got was North Atlantic followed by Southern+Western Euro.

Eye-color is not a good indication of genetic admixture as there are other reasons that may effect eye-color. I would vote based on general characteristics and what most people would vote if they had to classify me into one of the three groups. Anything resembling either a stocky stature and/or a larger cephalic index is usually a good indicator of Alpine admixture. Skin and eye pigment should only be considered in light of stature and other structural characteristics.


PD: I supose in this map Celtics are represented in the Continental Nordics group, just a difference that must be considered.

That's right, the Continental Nordic group has slightly different phenotype to the more Eastern Nordic-Alpine Slavic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_3.jpg/800px-Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_3.jpg

Maciamo
12-09-11, 13:59
It's intriguing that there are few clear correlations between these phenotypes and haplogroup frequencies. The only obvious correlations are :

- Nordic with I1 and I2b
- Alpine with I2a2
- Mediterranean with E1b1b and I2a1

R1b, G2a, J1 and J2 don't correlate with any one group. R1a is Alpine on the first map, but Continental Nordic on the other two.

It's understandable that haplogroup I has the biggest impact on phenotypes, if it was the first lineage in Europe, because it would mean that their autosomes were passed on to future generations more than other Y-haplogroups, probably because male lineages die out little by little in battles with newcomers but female lineages always survive. If that is the reason we see a correlation between haplogroup I and major phenotypes, it would also mean that E1b1b was also one of the oldest lineages to settle in Mediterranean Europe. That would explain why there is much unexplained E1b1b in Northwest Iberia, and why both E1b1b and I2a in Iberia, Italy and Greece appear to be autosomally South European (Mediterranean in the Dodecad admixtures) and not North African, Southwest Asian or West Asian. This is important because it means that Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnons) would have belonged to both I and E1b1b.

Note that the Welsh are classified as Mediterranean, and North Wales has been reported as having a sizeable percentage of E1b1b.

Knovas
12-09-11, 14:15
That makes sense, However, I2a1 it's too western not just Mediterranean, but it's very diffcult to think in a haplogroup representing the Eastern Mediterranean side (in my opinion the true phenotypical Mediterraneans). The best aproximation are probably ancient Greek sculptures to make an idea.

J2b subclade I think is the most Mediterranean haplogroup. I don't have a better idea for a Southeastern Mediterranean haplogroup, wich is not that clear to be linked to the Near East as clade.

Maciamo
12-09-11, 15:14
J2b subclade I think is the most Mediterranean haplogroup. I don't have a better idea for a Southeastern Mediterranean haplogroup, wich is not that clear to be linked to the Near East as clade.

J2b peaks in Albania-Macedonia and Anatolia, which are Alpine regions on the map.

Knovas
12-09-11, 15:50
Greece has substantial too, and not all maps show it as Alpine, but It's true the other regions are according to the data. Perhaps the Alipinid influence must be atributed to toher haplogroups, not J2b. Italy must have quite J2b too (and not much I2a1), and appears very Mediterranean.

Dorianfinder
12-09-11, 15:56
It's intriguing that there are few clear correlations between these phenotypes and haplogroup frequencies. The only obvious correlations are :

- Nordic with I1 and I2b
- Alpine with I2a2
- Mediterranean with E1b1b and I2a1


Both I2a1 and E1b-V13 could be classified as Mediterranean. Another Alpine group introduced on a different timescale and along a southeast to west-central trajectory is G2. The above maps suggest that R1b may have a specific Nordic subgroup of its own and R1a an Alpine subgroup. Interestingly, if we consider the general lack of I2a2 in the Greek Alps, the Greek Alpine haplogroup may well be R1a. Subsequently, R1a may have a small but significant early-European component.

The map appears to infer that Alpine R1b-U152 is part of the diffusion of the Continental Nordic/Teutonic group into south-central Europe.

Wilhelm
12-09-11, 18:13
This racial notions are ridiculous. For example the so-called mediterranean race, when we know with genetic distances, that a spaniard can be genetically closer to a German or Birtish than to a Greek or Cypriot

sparkey
12-09-11, 18:23
The map does seem too out-of-date to be all that useful, although it does show some interesting correlations, like that Welsh people have an oddly Southern European look to them. I don't think we should be classifying ourselves based on it.

My ancestors come from places that are marked with all three... if I were to rank them, it'd be something like Nordic = Mediterranean > Alpine, although phenotypically, I think I match Alpine > Nordic > Mediterranean.

Knovas
12-09-11, 18:26
As I said, that's too general and it only focusses, specially, on skull shape. It's likely that most Spaniards could have long head and long face (Med) but if you read, the difference is not so huge between Mediterranean and Nordic (except for light traits and stature).

For this reason I posted the other link, with more concrete classifications. For example I have round head and broad face, and with very fair skin and blue eyes the Celtic impact it's clearly dominant according to this. But I also considered the shape of my lips, nose, and ears, as typical Mediterranean (some characteristics it seems the authors forgot and must be considered in my opinion).

spongetaro
12-09-11, 19:56
I really wonder what does Alpine-Laponoid (8) mean on this map:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/czekananthro.gif

Dorianfinder
12-09-11, 20:00
As I said, that's too general and it only focusses, specially, on skull shape. It's likely that most Spaniards could have long head and long face (Med) but if you read, the difference is not so huge between Mediterranean and Nordic (except for light traits and stature).

For this reason I posted the other link, with more concrete classifications. For example I have round head and broad face, and with very fair skin and blue eyes the Celtic impact it's clearly dominant according to this. But I also considered the shape of my lips, nose, and ears, as typical Mediterranean (some characteristics it seems the authors forgot and must be considered in my opinion).

Judging from your description above you sound sub-Nordic with Mediterranean features.:thinking: The link you posted was Nordic-centric and classifies the various admixtures of Alpine and Slavic in terms of Nordic pre-IE. I found some of the photos of celebrities rather amusing. The problem comes in when one tries to differentiate a Slavic 'round head' and 'broad face' with lets say a Celtic (Alpine) 'round head' and 'broad face'. I see they use the term Baltid to denote Northeastern.

Dorianfinder
12-09-11, 20:12
I really wonder what does Alpine-Laponoid (8) mean on this map:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/czekananthro.gif

Laponoid refers to the physical phenotypes characteristic of the Laplanders or Sami. They regard their homeland to be the northern extremity of Europe however it is reasonable to believe that they ventured south and brought these characteristics with them.

Laponoid cranial features were considered to be 21% Tlatilco and approximately 32% Cerro by Wiercinski.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/LocationSapmi.png/200px-LocationSapmi.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/SamiWikibasedCollage.JPG/300px-SamiWikibasedCollage.JPG

spongetaro
12-09-11, 20:28
Lapanoid refers to the physical phenotypes characteristic of the Laplanders or Sami. They regard their homeland to be the northern extremity of Europe however it is reasonable to believe that they ventured south and brought these characteristics with them.

It is not impossible that they ventured south... but as far as southern Germany and southern France?

Most of the territory inhabited by Laplanders is Nordic, sub nordic or continental nordic.

I think that what they call "Alpine-Laponoid" refers to the shape of the skull or something like that

spongetaro
12-09-11, 20:29
I meant "southern Germany and central France"

Dorianfinder
12-09-11, 21:01
It is not impossible that they ventured south... but as far as southern Germany and southern France?

Most of the territory inhabited by Laplanders is Nordic, sub nordic or continental nordic.

Look carefully at the extreme north of the map you posted and you will notice some Alpine-Laponoid there as well.


I think that what they call "Alpine-Laponoid" refers to the shape of the skull or something like that

Correct, the shape of the scull and the breadth of the face.

Knovas
12-09-11, 21:21
Judging from your description above you sound sub-Nordic with Mediterranean features.:thinking: The link you posted was Nordic-centric and classifies the various admixtures of Alpine and Slavic in terms of Nordic pre-IE. I found some of the photos of celebrities rather amusing. The problem comes in when one tries to differentiate a Slavic 'round head' and 'broad face' with lets say a Celtic (Alpine) 'round head' and 'broad face'. I see they use the term Baltid to denote Northeastern.
Yes, Sub-Nordids are pretty similar to me according to the picts they use, I thought the same as you time ago. However, I think it's just casual, since autosomally they should appear with higher Northern (Northeast/Northwest) influence than mine. Atlanto-Meds can perfectly look very similar to me, the problem is they use only one picture to descrive this group and with such information Sub-Nordids match me better. Also, these are intermediate groups (quite closer geographically), and I assume some deviations aren't rare at all in some individuals. It's possible my Mediterranean traits with the small Baltic I usually get on admixture, can make me a bit similar to them, but genetically speaking I'm predominantly Atlanto-Med (North Atlantic + Southwestern).

Dorianfinder
13-09-11, 16:54
This racial notions are ridiculous. For example the so-called mediterranean race, when we know with genetic distances, that a spaniard can be genetically closer to a German or Birtish than to a Greek or Cypriot

I agree with your sentiments and still believe that Mediterranean characteristics do exist though. Does it matter what admixtures an individual may have when he looks Mediterranean and is culturally Mediterranean? Many of these classifications are too generalized however there remains a broad underpinning differentiating North, Central and Med.

Goga
13-09-11, 17:42
I agree with your sentiments and still believe that Mediterranean characteristics do exist though. Does it matter what admixtures an individual may have when he looks Mediterranean and is culturally Mediterranean? Many of these classifications are too generalized however there remains a broad underpinning differentiating North, Central and Med.
I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are. Iberians are only closer to other Celts in West Atlantic Europe. Greeks do have much more Nordic Scandinavian and Slavic DNA than the Iberians do.

In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians. And I'm not looking at their skin-color, but to their skeleton (and cranium) and how big they are. Greeks have more a stature/shape of the warriors than the Iberians. Iberians are more 'fragile'.

Goga
13-09-11, 17:46
Btw, there're no races, only 1 race. But there're different phenotypes though.

Knovas
13-09-11, 17:59
Sorry Goga, but you are wrong. The Genetic distance between Iberians and Germans is smaller than the one you find between Greeks and Germans, and the same is valid using Scandinavians. Greeks have too much West + Southwest Asian to be closer to them, and very low Northern European compared with Iberians. Just see Dodecad/Eurogenes projects and clustering studies. (Greeks cluster with Southern Italians...far than Iberians are taking Scandinavians and Germans as reference).

Here you have:

Bauchet
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8812/bauchetplotqk8.png

Price
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

Tian
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9836/tianplot.png

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 18:08
I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are. Iberians are only closer to other Celts in West Atlantic Europe. Greeks do have much more Nordic Scandinavian and Slavic DNA than the Iberians do.

In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians. And I'm not looking at their skin-color, but to their skeleton (and cranium) and how big they are. Greeks have more a stature/shape of the warriors than the Iberians. Iberians are more 'fragile'.

Where are you getting your information from? What you wrote is outrageously wrong. Iberians are far closer to Germans (and Hungarians, Dutch, South-eastern Britons...) genetically than Greeks. Do some research. The autosomal DNA results are most clear on this.

Goga
13-09-11, 18:09
Sorry Goga, but you are wrong. The Genetic distance between Iberians and Germans is smaller than the one you find between Greeks and Germans, and the same is valid using Scandinavians. Greeks have too much West + Southwest Asian to be closer to them, and very low Northern European compared with Iberians. Just see Dodecad/Eurogenes projects and clustering studies. (Greeks cluster with Southern Italians...far than Iberians are taking Scandinavians and Germans as reference).
As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples) than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who place the Greeks as Alpine phenotype. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 18:12
As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe, than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who that consider the Greeks as Alpines. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

The only thing that counts with regards to phenotype is autosomal DNA. There are large percentages of Greeks who are small of stature.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 18:14
As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples) than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
I don't agree with the maps above me, but as I can see I'm not the only one who place the Greeks as Alpine phenotype. And between Nordic and Med. phenotype there is an Alpines phenotype.
There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes. From 'big' to 'smaller' ones.

I do consider Greeks 'bigger' than the Iberians!

I guess you don't agree with scientific facts. Sorry to hear that. Of course, you are free to believe whatever you want.

Knovas
13-09-11, 18:15
Man, you go against all academic research. Germans and Scandinavians have very low Near Eastern, the same as Iberians. Doesn't matter Greeks have a lot of R1a if they have substantial Anatolian/Mideast influence (also aprecible in the haplogroup table). Impossible to be closer than Iberians are since they deviate much more towards Caucasian and Middle Eastern peoples.

Goga
13-09-11, 18:21
The only thing that counts with regards to phenotype is autosomal DNA. There are large percentages of Greeks who are small of stature.
I don't agree with you! No way, autosomal DNA says nothing about your skin-colour or anything about your phenotype. Phenotypes are only visible and measurable.

I know that your sense organs can lie, but measurable proportion of somebody's crania and skeleton are facts.

Goga
13-09-11, 18:22
Man, you go against all academic research. Germans and Scandinavians have very low Near Eastern, the same as Iberians. Doesn't matter Greeks have a lot of R1a if they have substantial Anatolian/Mideast influence (also aprecible in the haplogroup table). Impossible to be closer than Iberians are since they deviate much more towards Caucasian and Middle Eastern peoples.Man, it has nothing to do with having less or more Anatolian/Mideast, African, East Asian etc. influences. Why don't you understand that!

Goga
13-09-11, 18:24
Some African phenotypes are much bigger than the most European phenotypes! Some Africans in some areas in Africa are very big!

Knovas
13-09-11, 18:30
Your genes is what determine phenotype, including skull shape. Can you understand such easy thing?

And also, Iberians are predominantly Southwestern when we are refering to the Mediterranean side, little to do with the typical Mediterraneans you can find in other places. Just see the other K=12 with the Sardinian and Basque components. The major Iberian composition is, by far, Northwest + Northeast + Basque, just 20% aprox is listed as Sardinian...too low in comparison with the other 65%-70%.

What the hell bigger or smaller are you saying? Black Africans are big and they have nothing to do here...you have strange notions.

sparkey
13-09-11, 18:36
I think it's true that Iberians tend to be closer in autosomal admixture to Germanic peoples than Greeks are... but in Goga's defense, there's not always a direct correspondence between certain phenotypes and overall autosomal admixture. So to directly address the question, do we have anything that actually shows whether Iberian skull shapes are closer to the skull shapes of Germanic peoples than the skull shapes of Greeks are?

Goga
13-09-11, 18:40
Your genes is what determine phenotype, including skull shape. Can you understand such easy thing?

And also, Iberians are predominantly Southwestern when we are refering to the Mediterranean side, little to do with the typical Mediterraneans you can find in other places. Just see the other K=12 with the Sardinian and Basque components. The major Iberian composition is, by far, Northwest + Northeast + Basque, just 20% aprox is listed as Sardinian...too low in comparison with the other 65%-70%.

What the hell bigger or smaller are you saying? Black Africans are big and they have nothing to do here...you have strange notions.The thing is that the Greek phenotype is classified as Alpine one. And Alpines are in general between Nordics and Meds!

As far as I know in general Greeks are bigger in statue than the Iberians. Iberians are smaller and more fragile. There's a reason why Nordic phenotype borders the Alpine one and NOT the Mediterranean. There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes!

UK is a special case because British folks are an admixture of the Mediterranean and Nordic phenotype! Many Brits are 'Celtic immigrants' from south Europe!

Knovas
13-09-11, 18:41
You haven't, but the same is valid for him while saying Greeks are closer to Germans and Scandinavians. Then, the only way is checking admixture analysis, and there's no doubt about it.

Case closed XD

PD: Greeks are listed as mostly Mediterranean taking the maps as whole, no difference compared to Iberians in such aspect. Again, there's only one way, they way I said.

Knovas
13-09-11, 18:52
I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are.
And don't try to deviate attention changing the speech, since what you say at the begining and has been totally refuted it's perfectly clear.

Goga
13-09-11, 18:54
No there're many instruments to measure the phenotypes.

Some guys are using the autosomal DNA, because they think that they're better off with that. They're only cheating themselves and morons.

But who says that the autosomal DNA is the BEST instrument to measure the distance between phenotypes. Show me just 1 renowned and celebrated scholar that clams that DOCECAD is the best instrument too visualize the phenotypes???

Goga
13-09-11, 18:56
And don't try to deviate attention changing the speech, since what you say at the begining and has been totally refuted it's perfectly clear.
The only link between Spaniards and Germanic/Scandinavian tribes is the Celtic link, R1b. Germanic people have MUCH more Celtic DNA (Medit.), than Spaniards Germanic DNA (Nordic). R1b connects somehow both populations.

The greatest proportion of R1b in the Iberians is NOT Nordic, but Medit.!

Knovas
13-09-11, 18:57
Man, I already quoted you saying that Greeks are closer GENETICALLY speaking too. What are you trying to argue since none of the genetics plots and none admixture analysis place Greeks where you say? They aren't closer, get real.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:01
The thing is that the Greek phenotype is classified as Alpine one. And Alpines are in general between Nordics and Meds!

As far as I know in general Greeks are bigger in statue than the Iberians. Iberians are smaller and more fragile. There's a reason why Nordic phenotype borders the Alpine one and NOT the Mediterranean. There's a gradual formation of the phenotypes!

UK is a special case because British folks are an admixture of the Mediterranean and Nordic phenotype! Many Brits are 'Celtic immigrants' from south Europe!

Actually the closest to nordids are Atlantids, which most Iberians belong to.


I don't agree with you! No way, autosomal DNA says nothing about your skin-colour or anything about your phenotype. Phenotypes are only visible and measurable.

I know that your sense organs can lie, but measurable proportion of somebody's crania and skeleton are facts.
Are you a comedian ? Actually Autosomal-DNA includes all the genes that determine pigmentation and phenotype.



As far as I know is Iberian R1b NOT Nordic. I think that R1b in Greeks is more Nordic, from Northern Europe (Germanic peoples) than the Iberian one. Plus Greeks have much more R1a and I (which I do consider as Central-East European).
Haplogroups are not related with phenotype. Iran ha 50% of R1a, also India has plenty of R1a too.


I don't agree with you. Genetically and phenotypically Greeks are closer to the Germans and Scandinavians than Iberians are.
Completely wrong. Iberians are FAR closer to germans/scandinavians than greeks are.


Iberians are only closer to other Celts in West Atlantic Europe. Greeks do have much more Nordic Scandinavian and Slavic DNA than the Iberians do.
More slavic, but not more nordic. At Eurogenes Spain shows 22% North-European while Greeks 4%


In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians.
Genetics say otherwise. Iberia has by far, much more nordic autosomal than Greece.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:07
Table of genetic distances. Spain is far closer to Sweden than Greece is :
Spain--Sweden 0.055 , Greece--Sweden 0.084

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9892/fsttiant.jpg

Study :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/table/t1-09_94_tian/


Another one. Spain--Norway 0.085 , Greece-Norway 0.103

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6893/tehvalu.jpg



Eurogenes North-Euroepan admixture :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg20/scaled.php?server=20&filename=northeurope.gif&res=medium

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:08
Man, it has nothing to do with having less or more Anatolian/Mideast, African, East Asian etc. influences. Why don't you understand that!

What are you talking about? Seems like you know very little about how DNA works.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:12
The only link between Spaniards and Germanic/Scandinavian tribes is the Celtic link, R1b. Germanic people have MUCH more Celtic DNA (Medit.), than Spaniards Germanic DNA (Nordic). R1b connects somehow both populations.

The greatest proportion of R1b in the Iberians is NOT Nordic, but Medit.!

Iberians are actually less than 50% Med / Southern Euro in autosomal DNA testing. About 40-45% compared to 55-60% Western, Northern / North Atlanitc and Eastern Euro.

spongetaro
13-09-11, 19:15
Table of genetic distances. Spain is far closer to Sweden than Greece is :
Spain--Sweden 0.055 , Greece--Sweden 0.084

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9892/fsttiant.jpg

Study :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/table/t1-09_94_tian/


Eurogenes North-Euroepan admixture :

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg20/scaled.php?server=20&filename=northeurope.gif&res=medium


I don't know how they made that map and how large were the samples but it is just impossible that Belgium has less North European component than France

Goga
13-09-11, 19:16
Sure, I'm not blind. If you take a DODECAD admixture it's clearly says that Iberians are closer to let say Scandinavians than the Greeks are. But which scholar says that nowadays DODECAD is the best indicator to display how close the phenotypes to each other are? It's all in premature phase, much more research must be done!

Maybe is Greek E much closer to Scandinavian R1b, than Iberian R1b to Scandinavian R1b. DODECAD admixture analysis don't show that!

The thing is that Greeks have much more North European DNA than the Spaniards do have. R1b, I, R1a from North Eruope.

As far as I know Greek phenotype is closer to the Nordic phenotype than Iberian phehotype to the Nordic one. And I'll not change my mind. I'm done, BASTA!

But I don't have anything against you. You can call yourselves whatever you want. Super Atlantic-Nordic-pure-max-100%-full, I don't care.

BTW, In India live MANY phenotypes, some of these phenotypes are very 'big'.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:19
Sure, I'm not blind. If you take a DODECAD admixture it's clearly says that Iberians are closer to let say Scandinavians than the Greeks are. But which scholars says that nowadays DODECAD is the best indicator to display how close the phenotypes to each other are. It's all in premature phase, much more research must be done!
Oh come on ! It's from scientific studies, the study of Tian et al. here is the link :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730349/?tool=pmcentrez


The thing is that Greeks have much more North European DNA than the Spaniards do have.
Prove it.


BTW, In India live MANY phenotypes, some of these phenotypes are very 'big'.
Pakistan, Iran, Indian have very high levels of R1a

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:23
I don't know how they made that map and how large were the samples but it is just impossible that Belgium has less North European component than France

Not impossible at all. However, one also needs to consider Belgium's North Atlantic component (21%).

spongetaro
13-09-11, 19:25
Not impossible at all. However, one also needs to consider Belgium's North Atlantic component (21%).


And how do you explain German's Northern European admixture (only 29%)?

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:26
Sure, I'm not blind. If you take a DODECAD admixture it's clearly says that Iberians are closer to let say Scandinavians than the Greeks are. But which scholar says that nowadays DODECAD is the best indicator to display how close the phenotypes to each other are? It's all in premature phase, much more research must be done!

Maybe is Greek E much closer to Scandinavian R1b, than Iberian R1b to Scandinavian R1b. DODECAD admixture analysis don't show that!

The thing is that Greeks have much more North European DNA than the Spaniards do have. R1b, I, R1a from North Eruope.

As far as I know Greek phenotype is closer to the Nordic phenotype than Iberian phehotype to the Nordic one. And I'll not change my mind. I'm done, BASTA!

But I don't have anything against you. You can call yourselves whatever you want. Super Atlantic-Nordic-pure-max-100%-full, I don't care.

BTW, In India live MANY phenotypes, some of these phenotypes are very 'big'.


All the peer reviewed studies say pretty much the same thing as Dodecad and Eurogenes. You are WAY off on this one. You may be done but you are embarrassingly WRONG!

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:28
And how do you explain German's Northern European admixture (only 29%)?
Because they have high levels of Slavic

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:29
And how do you explain German's Northern European admixture (only 29%)?

They also have a high Balto-Slavic score which is closely related to the Northern European category.

p.s. sorry, Wilhem beat me to it.:ashamed2:

spongetaro
13-09-11, 19:29
Because they have high levels of Slavic

Do you have the map for the other admixture (Balto-slavic, North Atlantic...)?

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:33
Germany is 21% North Atlantic. I'm not certain about Balto-Slavic.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:37
Do you have the map for the other admixture (Balto-slavic, North Atlantic...)?
Yes.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9062/kelten.gif

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4875/germanen.gif



http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8431/slawen.gif


NORTH ATLANTIC

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1585/northatlantic.gif (http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1585/northatlantic.gif)

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:41
Do you have the map for the other admixture (Balto-slavic, North Atlantic...)?

The Balto-Slavic map Wilhelm posted also provides an answer for you on Belgium.

Goga
13-09-11, 19:46
You may be done but you are embarrassingly WRONG!Sure, I'm embarrassingly WRONG. Whatever you say mate. But If we get to personal according to me you guys are just embarrassingly wannabe Nordics, which you're absolutely NOT! What's wrong with you guys, respect yourself. If even you don't respect yourself, don't expect that ohter folks will do!

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 19:51
Sure, I'm embarrassingly WRONG. Whatever you say mate. But If we get to personal according to me you guys are just embarrassingly wannabe Nordics, which you're absolutely NOT! What's wrong with you guys, respect yourself. If even you don't respect yourself, don't expect that ohter folks will do!
We are not nordics, and we don't want to be. What the hell is your problem ? We are just stating a proven fact after all your lies.

Knovas
13-09-11, 19:54
We have Northern European, North Atlantic, Southern Euro, Baltic...just a mix that makes us closer to Germans and Scandinavians than Greeks are. That simple.

Dodecad gives more than 40% East + West Euro to Iberians, While Eurogenes gives near 60% or more if you put North Atlantic, Baltic, Northern Euro, etc., all together. Doesn't matter wich project you check, Greeks always get less than Spaniards.


THE END

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 19:57
Sure, I'm embarrassingly WRONG. Whatever you say mate. But If we get to personal according to me you guys are just embarrassingly wannabe Nordics, which you're absolutely NOT! What's wrong with you guys, respect yourself. If even you don't respect yourself, don't expect that ohter folks will do!

You can't be serious. Whatever...

Goga
13-09-11, 19:58
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg20/scaled.php?server=20&filename=northeurope.gif&res=medium


LMAO, folks you're contradicting yourself.

According to this map Poles has LESS Northern European DNA than Iberians, while it's well known that there're more "NORDIC" Poles, than 'NORDIC" Iberians!

This is a proof that DNA admixture has nothing to do with phenotypes!!! Once again LMAO, muhahaha.

spongetaro
13-09-11, 20:00
Yes.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9062/kelten.gif

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4875/germanen.gif



http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8431/slawen.gif


NORTH ATLANTIC

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1585/northatlantic.gif (http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1585/northatlantic.gif)


Thank you. The updtaed Northern European admixture map you posted seems more accurate.
The Balto-Slavic component in Belgium doesn't fit with any historical facts. How could it be more Baltic than Germany?

Knovas
13-09-11, 20:01
They have other scores, as for example Baltic as somebody noted above. Together with the North Atlantic they get higher than Iberians. That's basic man.

Goga
13-09-11, 20:04
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg20/scaled.php?server=20&filename=northeurope.gif&res=medium


LMAO, folks you're contradicting yourself.

According to this map the Poles have LESS Northern European DNA than the Iberians, while it's well known that they are more "NORDIC", than the Iberians!

This is a proof that DNA admixture has nothing to do with phenotypes!!! Once again LMAO, muhahaha.
Sorry, I mean the Poles and the Baltics!

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 20:05
We have Northern European, North Atlantic, Southern Euro, Baltic...just a mix that makes us closer to Germans and Scandinavians than Greeks are. That simple.

Dodecad gives more than 40% East + West Euro to Iberians, While Eurogenes gives near 60% or more if you put North Atlantic, Baltic, Northern Euro, etc., all together. Doesn't matter wich project you check, Greeks always get less than Spaniards.


THE END

These figures should not surprise any person who is aware of Iberia's Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic history, population movements and the extensive socio-commercial networks that were built up over thousands of years along the Atlantic Facade.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 20:06
Thank you. The updtaed Northern European admixture map you posted seems more accurate.
The Balto-Slavic component in Belgium doesn't fit with any historical facts. How could it be more Baltic than Germany?

Genetics many times do not mirror history. There are numerous examples one can site.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 20:08
LMAO, folks you're contradicting yourself.

According to this map Poles has LESS Northern European DNA than Iberians, while it's well known that there're more "NORDIC" Poles, than 'NORDIC" Iberians!

This is a proof that DNA admixture has nothing to do with phenotypes!!! Once again LMAO, muhahaha.

Read the other posts referring to the Balto-Slavic component. Poland saturates at 55% Balto-Slavic, which is CLOSELY RELATED to Northern European.

Goga
13-09-11, 20:32
Read the other posts referring to the Balto-Slavic component. Poland saturates at 55% Balto-Slavic, which is CLOSELY RELATED to Northern European.
As far as I know is Greek West Asian component also CLOSELY related to Norhern European (Nordic phenotype)! It's closer to North European than the Med. component to N. European. This is maybe why Greeks are Alpine phenotype (= closer to Nordics) and NOT Med.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 20:40
As far as I know is Greek West Asian component also CLOSELY related to Norhern European (Nordic phenotype)! It's closer to North European than the Med. component to N. European. This is maybe why Greeks are Alpine phenotype (= closer to Nordics) and NOT Med.

West Asian is not related to Northern European. What are talking about? Give it up already.:rolleyes2:

Knovas
13-09-11, 20:42
The problem is that according to Dodecad Spaniards get more than 40% East + West, while Greeks don't. And Greeks also have quite Southwest Asian, not only West Asian, so I'm afraid your ideas don't go in a good direction (again).

Eurogenes show clearly the difference between Greeks and Spaniards...impossible they can be closer to Northern Europeans when they are listed as 70% Southern European (Near Eastern included there, because Davidski does not distinguish for the moment, althought time ago he did), and Spaniards get only 30-35%.

Goga
13-09-11, 20:45
West Asian is not related to Northern European. What are talking about? Give it up already.:rolleyes2:Yes, it is.

I'm just using your own 'fake DODECAD weapons' against you! Here you're!!!
West Asia is closer to West European, than Med. to West European. 0.048 vs. 0.058

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6264/blogfn.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/98/123gz.jpg
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/projecting-pakistan-populations-on-west.html

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9287/345qe.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FFgv5Ekbf5s/TePJ635DfYI/AAAAAAAADyw/fCws28qg-ds/s1600/nj.png[/QUOTE]

Knovas
13-09-11, 20:50
This fact does not change what I said, and the other thing is that Med, East and West Euro, have much less non European affinitties than West Asian. Those three are part of Europe, while West Asian is not.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 20:54
Yes, it is.

I'm just using your own 'fake DODECAD weapons' against you! Here you're!!!
West Asia is closer to West European, than Med. to West European.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6264/blogfn.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/98/123gz.jpg
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/projecting-pakistan-populations-on-west.html

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9287/345qe.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FFgv5Ekbf5s/TePJ635DfYI/AAAAAAAADyw/fCws28qg-ds/s1600/nj.png[/QUOTE]

It's not in the same category as Northern European like, for example, North Atlantic. There is no possible way, given the hugely dominant Med and SW Asian components in Greeks, that they are closer to Northern Europeans than Spaniards / Iberians. I just doesn't work. Plain as day.

If you think the studies posted are "fake" feel free to proffer other (legitimate) research. Research that will certainly buttress exactly what we have been saying.

Goga
13-09-11, 20:54
This fact does not change what I said, and the other thing is that Med, East and West Euro, have much less non European affinitties than West Asian. Those three are part of Europe, while West Asian is not.
The thing is what is Europe? Define Europe, Eurpope is NOT a scientific term, but a geopolitacal one.
DNA goes further than names of continents. DNA don't know boundaries. Over 1000 years Europe can be different, If Israel is in Europe, than the Levant will become Europe too.

So the term 'Europe' says nothing to me!!!

Goga
13-09-11, 20:55
It's not in the same category as Northern European like, for example, North Atlantic. There is no possible way, given the hugely dominant Med and SW Asian components in Greeks, that they are closer to Northern Europeans than Spaniards / Iberians. I just doesn't work. Plain as day.

If you think the studies posted are "fake" feel free to proffer other (legitimate) research. Research that will show exactly what we have saying.So NOW is DODECAD fake?

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 20:56
West-Asian peaks in the region of Caucasus/Anatolia/Middl-east. The mediterranean is strong in ALL of Europe, for example Orcadians have 25%, Scandinavians 15-20%, etc and peaks in Sardinians, North-Italians. The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean. West-Asian is small in all of Europe, except those countries with lot of near-east influence like Greece or Italy

Maciamo
13-09-11, 20:57
Both I2a1 and E1b-V13 could be classified as Mediterranean. Another Alpine group introduced on a different timescale and along a southeast to west-central trajectory is G2. The above maps suggest that R1b may have a specific Nordic subgroup of its own and R1a an Alpine subgroup. Interestingly, if we consider the general lack of I2a2 in the Greek Alps, the Greek Alpine haplogroup may well be R1a. Subsequently, R1a may have a small but significant early-European component.

The map appears to infer that Alpine R1b-U152 is part of the diffusion of the Continental Nordic/Teutonic group into south-central Europe.

G2a also seemed Alpine to me at first sight because it peaks in the Caucasus, Anatolia and the Alps, all Alpine regions. However it is also extremely high in in Sardinia and quite high all over Italy, Southern France and Iberia, which are all phenotypically Mediterranean. So G2a can be either Alpine or Mediterranean.

R1b-U152 is even more complex since its is found at high frequency in Italy (Mediterranean), around the Alps (Apline) and further north into Nordic territory (Germany, Belgium).

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 21:00
So NOW is DODECAD fake?

Come on fella, you are the one that wrote "your own fake Dodecad weapons against you". I didn't say anything about Dodecad. Take a break, you can't win.

Goga
13-09-11, 21:00
West-Asian peaks in the region of Caucasus/Anatolia/Middl-east. The mediterranean is strong in ALL of Europe, for example Orcadians have 25%, Scandinavians 15-20%, etc and peaks in Sardinians, North-Italians. The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean. West-Asian is small in all of Europe, except those countries with lot of near-east influence like Greece or ItalyTrue, but what are you trying to say with that?

There is also MUCH MORE 'West Asian' DNA in Europe than 'European' DNA in West Asia. But so what???
Are 'West Asians' stronger?

Goga
13-09-11, 21:02
Come on fella, you are the one that wrote "your own fake Dodecad weapons against you". I didn't say anything about Dodecad? Take a break, you can't win.
Yes, but you was trying to push DODECAD autosomal DNA into my throat to proof your thing!

spongetaro
13-09-11, 21:05
The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean.

What evidences for that?

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 21:08
Yes, but you was trying to push DODECAD autosomal DNA into my throat!

Facts are facts. What you have been suggesting about Greeks and Iberians is ridiculously wrong. Did you just expect people to accept your falsehoods and not respond with scientific data to refute your statements? Your argument is just plain faulty. In fact, it's ill conceived.

spongetaro
13-09-11, 21:08
I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

Goga
13-09-11, 21:11
Facts are facts. What you have been suggesting about Greeks and Iberians is ridiculously wrong. Did you just expect people to accept your falsehoods and not respond with scientific data to refute your statements? Your argument is just plain faulty, in fact, it's ill conceived.
Yes, facts ARE facts.
Iberians are 'Meds.', while Greeks are 'Alpines' in phenotype.

And in general Nordics and Alpines are closer to each other than Meds. to Nordics. Just take a look on Eastern Europe!

sparkey
13-09-11, 21:13
I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts. It says nothing, of course, about things like how Cro-Magnon a population is by percentage, because post-Cro-Magnon admixture that's nonetheless non-recent (that is, unshared with separate modern populations) could still be placed as "European" in admixture analysis, since all these autosomal studies are doing is comparing apparent admixture of modern populations.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 21:13
Yes, facts ARE facts.
Iberians are 'Meds.', while Greeks are 'Alpines' in phenotype.

And in general Nordics and Alpines are closer to each other than Meds. to Nordics. Just take a look on Eastern Europe!
Please, what is "Med" ? Define. We are not in the 19th century, that's all pseudo-science.


I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?
on all runs I've seen so far they always have the highest levels of European .

spongetaro
13-09-11, 21:17
Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts

If we assume that G2a was in Europe before R1b then Basque had recent genetic influx.

spongetaro
13-09-11, 21:19
Usually that means lowest apparent recent admixture, which they apparently share with some Balts

Sorry you talked about admixture. We can't really know wether all the Western European component in Basque is Paleolithic, Neolithic, bronze age or more recent.

sparkey
13-09-11, 21:20
If we assume that G2a was in Europe before R1b then Basque had recent genetic influx.

I think it's obvious that Basque Y-lines are overwhelmingly recent, with all their R1b. But Y-DNA is also a very biased marker. I was just saying that autosomal DNA doesn't have a lot to say about when Basques showed up, just that they don't seem to have much recent admixture with modern non-European populations, or much general autosomal correlation with them.

sparkey
13-09-11, 21:20
Sorry you talked about admixture. We can't really know wether all the Western European component in Basque is Paleolithic, Neolithic, bronze age or more recent.

Yes, that's what I meant.

spongetaro
13-09-11, 21:27
The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European

Knovas
13-09-11, 21:27
Basque genetic is clearly the purest one, more than Baltics. If you check the Global Simillarities at 23andme using both individuals, Basques appear with less Asian and African simillarities. Also, the cluster is much more isoloated than Baltics, so that's fact.

Even the Basque Dodecad participant with some Northwest African and West Asian admixture, is the person who shows less non European similarities in all 23andme...and I shared genomes with more than 600 people (Baltics included, of course), probably 800 aprox. That's simply because he has a very high Basque %, a kind of genetic wich is substantially different from the rest and "maskes" the admixture. I'd like to see how a pure French Basque look at 23andme, it would show incredibly low none European numbers since I know how the Dodecad example look like.

Knovas
13-09-11, 21:29
The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European
Check K=10 please, and the other K=12 (Sardinian + Basque). Go and compare Spanis and Basque results with other Europeans. Also, check the distances.

Of course means European, doesn't matter you call it Paleolithic European or Soutthern European.

West Euro the only European component? very good! to strange it's closer to Paleo African than Mediterranean, and also closer to Mongoloid groups than Med. is.

Think before writing please.

sparkey
13-09-11, 21:38
Of course means European, doesn't matter you call it Paleolithic European or Soutthern European.

Well it does matter, because calling it "Paleolithic European" would be disingenuous. We don't know the exact percentages of Neanderthal vs. Cro-Magnon vs. Neolithic vs. etc. makeup of the different autosomal clusters. We only know how they relate to each other.

Wilhelm
13-09-11, 21:41
The problem with Mediterranean component is that it is really "mediterranean". It is neither Northern African nor southern European.
So Basque being only Med and Western European don't make them the "purest european".
Only the West euro component can be defined as pure European. In this case, the Irish would be the " purest" European
No, the Irish have more of other components. Anyways, there are much more runs, I've been following them and is always the case that basques score the highest european. For example, this time a scientific study, the Behar et al :

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2415/behar.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg)


Huyghe et al. 2010
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TP-9vRUMtZI/AAAAAAAADAk/fF_Dd5SfCnw/s1600/saami.png[ (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TP-9vRUMtZI/AAAAAAAADAk/fF_Dd5SfCnw/s1600/saami.png)


Admixture tables :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKxB2sRQp4I/AAAAAAAACqk/ucV6aU91Hi8/s1600/admixture6.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg)


Another one :
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg)

Knovas
13-09-11, 21:48
Well it does matter, because calling it "Paleolithic European" would be disingenuous. We don't know the exact percentages of Neanderthal vs. Cro-Magnon vs. Neolithic vs. etc. makeup of the different autosomal clusters. We only know how they relate to each other.
Well ok, but it's impossible to deny it means European (call it Med. or another name, ¿who cares?). I did not create the distances as you can imagine, and the examples I mentioned comparing West Euro and Mediterranean are perfectly clear.

Cambrius (The Red)
13-09-11, 21:49
Yes, facts ARE facts.
Iberians are 'Meds.', while Greeks are 'Alpines' in phenotype.

And in general Nordics and Alpines are closer to each other than Meds. to Nordics. Just take a look on Eastern Europe!

Sure, dream on. Greeks are among the most Mediterranean of population groups in Europe. Phenotypically they run the Balkanic / East Med spectrum: from Dinaric to Levantine.

It's been abundantly demonstrated through numerous DNA projects that Greeks are far more Med / Southern Euro (autosomal DNA governs phenotypic structures) than Iberians, who are majority Atlantic. That's a fact, nothing bad or good about it. If you can't accept the reality of the situation it's your loss. Time to move on.

sparkey
13-09-11, 21:53
Well ok, but it's impossible to deny it means European (call it Med. or another name, ¿who cares?). I did not create the distances as you can imagine, and the examples I mentioned comparing West Euro and Mediterranean are perfectly clear.

Oh, I don't think that just calling it "European" is disingenuous. That seems to be an appropriate geographic descriptor.

Knovas
13-09-11, 22:02
Oh, I don't think that just calling it "European" is disingenuous. That seems to be an appropriate geographic descriptor.
I'm not telling you must call it plain European, I'm telling it represents Europe, more likely Southern Europe since it's where it peaks. I don't care about the name, it's just part of Europe, the same as the other two.

Results are proportional to the other runs. If you check Northern Euro's you'll see some of them also increased the average, others are the same, and others decreased. But if you are curious, you can go and check that some Baltics and Polish are the ones who increased more with the East European...so it's not that "easy" to score high Mediterranean as some people seems to think.

However, we can discuss if you want which component is more European taking the distances and comparing with other analysis. For example:

DOD725 is 54.4% Med, 38.2% West Euro, and 4.1% East Euro in the last run. At K=10 he was 37.4% North Euro and 52.3% South Euro. Let's see then...

East + West = 42.3% - 37.4% (N. Euro) = 4.9%

Medit. = 54.4% - 52.3% (S. Euro) = 2.1%

Another one, DOD217, had 36.4% Northern Europe and 50.6% Southern Europe. K=12 show 46.4% West Euro (+10%!!!), and 47% Med. Note this one has even decreased the Mediterranean score.

Well, curiously, the East and West Euro (Northern Europe) increased more than the Mediterranean (Southern Europe) compared with K=10. Both are Iberians, a "close" reference for Basques.

Time to think about it guys.

Dorianfinder
14-09-11, 00:38
West-Asian peaks in the region of Caucasus/Anatolia/Middl-east. The mediterranean is strong in ALL of Europe, for example Orcadians have 25%, Scandinavians 15-20%, etc and peaks in Sardinians, North-Italians. The basques who are the purest Europeans have also 45% mediterranean. West-Asian is small in all of Europe, except those countries with lot of near-east influence like Greece or Italy

Keep in mind that a high inbreeding coefficient combined with a high genetic fitness should for all intents and purposes give a 'false' homogeneity as foreign elements are diffused within a contained population sample; this is one of the reasons why Basque and Sardinian are used as admixture groups on Dodecad, not because they are 'pure' but simply because they are 'typical' admixture groups of their respective localities. Coupled with this we also need to bear in mind that Basque is an admixture group used to illustrate the west Mediterranean component in various populations.


I mean "the Basques are the purest Europeans" on what level?

5150

Vernesi (2004) compared mt-dna haplotype frequencies and found that Etruscan mt-dna has an admixture of those mt-dna haplotypes found in the Turkish, Basque and North African populations. This is merely one of many mt-dna studies that suggest a high degree of admixture in these communities.

The majority of Basque admixture in the Dodecad project is not visible because of the calibrations used within the program set to incorporate major genetic input and incorporate it into the Basque factor-analysis. All genetic information typed to determine the typical Basque admixture is indicated as 'Basque' with only 'very' unique genetic input visible, these depend on the settings and regions compared.

It is important to note that each Dodecad study compares different regions, requiring a different calibration and admixture setup. For example when Mediterranean countries are compared with Anatolia and ME countries we find the Basque population displays little North European, Dagestan, West Asian and Sardinian. However, in a different Dodecad analysis comparing Basque with Eastern European countries, we find a very high level of North European in the Basque population as North European does not include the Northeast European populations under comparison. Therefore North European in this example would entail other regions that display a high Alpino-Celtic admixture, as a consequence reflecting a higher level of 'North European' than would otherwise be seen.

In conclusion, Dodecad utilizes complex algorithms and makes assumptions based on its programmed calibrations. The data is visually represented and appears easy to comprehend, however, various statistical issues make analysis tricky, especially when comparing similar populations. There is however no doubt in my mind that as time passes the Dodecad program will become better defined in its interpretation and visualization of same-type admixtures.

Wilhelm
14-09-11, 01:36
Is not just at Dodecad, also at Eurogenes and at academic studies.

Drac
14-09-11, 09:33
In general I do consider the Greeks much more 'Nordic' than the Iberians. And I'm not looking at their skin-color, but to their skeleton (and cranium) and how big they are. Greeks have more a stature/shape of the warriors than the Iberians. Iberians are more 'fragile'.

Actually it's the other way around: Mediterraneans are so close to Nordics cranially that anthropologists have a very hard time telling them apart. Both of them are dolichocephalic, while Alpines are brachycephalic, very easily distinguished from Nordics and Mediterraneans. This strong similarity in skull shape convinced Carleton Coon that Nordics were really nothing more than taller and more depigmented Mediterraneans.

The average height among Greeks is the same as Spaniards: 5 ft 9 in - 5 ft 10 in

Greeks, by the way, are not wholly Alpine by any stretch of the imagination. They have strong Mediterranean presence as well.

Knovas
14-09-11, 09:51
Is not just at Dodecad, also at Eurogenes and at academic studies.
And 23andme also, as I said, show the Basques as the population with less African and Asian similarities. It's fact this genetic is the most purest European form we can find, all indicators follow that way. Even DOD818 with a little admixture (96% Euro), is less similar than Baltics or any other European to Africa and Asia, just because the huge Basque percent deviates him far from those groups. No need to say a pure Basque, or just one with 99% European (average) would show incredibly low numbers while checking African and Asian groups.

Checking Dodecad K=12 v3 it's easy to notice they have a "perfect" equilibrium in average, showing more than 52% West European (far from Africa) and more than 45% Mediterranean (far from Asia and not precisely close to Africa, specially Negroid groups). More or less, it matches the cluster they get, althought the best way to fit this population is using primarly a Basque cluster. I also think Iberians need a Basque cluster to get accurate results, since they have substantial Basque ancestry, specially in the Northeast side. The same is valid for the Southern French.

Dorianfinder
14-09-11, 13:18
Is not just at Dodecad, also at Eurogenes and at academic studies.

The principles and methodologies have similar issues. Whether Autosomal tests focusing on genetic percentages as determined by examining SNPs or standard identity markers, such as the CODIS profile in combination with databases such as OmniPop, ENFSI and adaptations of various published studies and commercial testing agencies. The Maths for the most part is linear and seeks to analyze commonalities and express them as percentages. Much room exists for misrepresentation of certain standard identity markers under the CODIS system. For example, not too long ago R1b was touted as a palaeolithic European marker, now we understand that such conclusions were the result of poor definition of R1b subclade distributions and a general lack of non-European samples. The same is true for standard identity markers being used to identify Autosomal admixtures in various populations.

Knovas
14-09-11, 15:12
If you were right, most Iberians and Southern French would cluster with Basques since they seem to have appearently very similar composition (just see k=12 v3 run). However, things doesn't work like this, because most of them are only PART Basque (and usually quite ancient). Basques have a very specific genetic, that's why sometimes Davidski (Eurogenes) rejected to include them in the runs: just to avoid spurious results.

In my opinion this K=12 is not valid for the Basques, the best run for them MUST include a Basque cluster (like the other K=12 did)...I know perhaps it's boring, but it's what really fits them better.

Wilhelm
14-09-11, 16:40
The principles and methodologies have similar issues. Whether Autosomal tests focusing on genetic percentages as determined by examining SNPs or standard identity markers, such as the CODIS profile in combination with databases such as OmniPop, ENFSI and adaptations of various published studies and commercial testing agencies. The Maths for the most part is linear and seeks to analyze commonalities and express them as percentages. Much room exists for misrepresentation of certain standard identity markers under the CODIS system. For example, not too long ago R1b was touted as a palaeolithic European marker, now we understand that such conclusions were the result of poor definition of R1b subclade distributions and a general lack of non-European samples. The same is true for standard identity markers being used to identify Autosomal admixtures in various populations.
You are wrong, it has nothing to do. The components are not decided by humans, they are made automatically by software based on commonality of SNP's in the populations. Then the humans just labels these components, of course the label is arbitrary, but sometimes is very clear, like when it peaks at more that 70% in a certain population.

Knovas
14-09-11, 17:00
Yes, clusters come without names. And Basques are simply Basques, not casual or forced they're always listed in a different cluster, althought it's true some of them have a little of other ancestries. For example, I don't expect DOD818 to be less than 90% Basque (enough to deviate in comparison with typical Europeans), even knowing he's slightly mixed.

I said this a lot of times: too bad Dienekes' is not running the other analysis. For some people (not only Basques), that was more accurate to define the European ancestry. It's true other clusters behaved a bit strange, but nothing serious.

Dorianfinder
14-09-11, 17:29
You are wrong, it has nothing to do. The components are not decided by humans, they are made automatically by software based on commonality of SNP's in the populations. Then the humans just labels these components, of course the label is arbitrary, but sometimes is very clear, like when it peaks at more that 70% in a certain population.

When an SNP is programmed into the system it does not differentiate beyond known subclades. This is known as poor definition and results in numerous overlaps between various regions. If I use a common denominator to anchor my sub-groups it means this common denominator or 'standard group' will show up on the factor analysis as being between 0.95 and 1.0 ... use caution not to interpret this as a percentage of admixture regarding the 'standard group' because it isn't representative as it only represents and includes commonalities within the chosen population.

For a study to be valid it needs to test what it claims and any influence from confounding variables should be insignificant. Dodecad and Eurogenes both display serious validity issues as can be observed when similar populations are tested. Similar populations need a high resolution technique to differentiate their unique Autosomal structures, this is still some way off and what we have now is still very elementary, but fun to look at and discuss on forums. Those who say that a cluster comes out with no name are indeed right in saying so, however they are failing to mention that the factors or 'measurements' used to formulate each cluster is determined through tests that determine certain marker values, very few I may add, along a poorly defined allele.

An example of how the Dodecad program works is when you have 10% R1a in two populations. The one population, lets call it A, has a high proportion of the SNP M458, while B has a much smaller proportion of this SNP M458. Manually, we can calculate the average and estimate it using a simple formula. Dodecad does this using Autosomal values. It is not an exact science as base samples used to calculate norms are fickle and prone to sample error.

An anecdotal example could be used to illustrate what poor definition entails. When there is a man who is believed to be the world's heavyweight boxing champion. Many people may in fact be better than him but because they do not have an opportunity to challenge him he will be proclaimed world champion. He is in fact only the champion of a small sample of boxers. Similarly, it is often not the case that this that or the other group display less admixture than other populations rather than neighboring populations who have not as yet been Autosomaly mapped to a similar extent. Iberia has a very rich genetic heritage and is no less effected by surrounding populations than Greece. The difference comes in that whereas Greece's neighbors share high levels of Anatolian genetic code the Iberian population has not distributed its genetic heritage to the same extent, making it 'purer'. One could argue that Greece's success at colonizing and distributing its genetic heritage throughout the region now appears on admixture analyzes as though it had in fact been conquered and added to, when the exact opposite may in fact be the more likely scenario.

LeBrok
14-09-11, 19:44
Very interesting Dorianfinder, and it plainly illustrates shortcomings of this and similar analysis, good for blogging but not exact science.
One other thing that bothers me is the starting point for European ancestry. What is a definition, all could agree, to be called European?
Can we agree that today's European is everyone with european citizenship?
What about recent huge wave of emigrants from Middle East and Africa, getting ot 10 or 20% level in some areas in Europe? After all if they have citizenship it means that they were accepted to become Europeans buy people or their authorities.
If starting point is that citizens are europeans, therefore all citizens need to be included into statistical studies. This will definitely change genetic map of Europe, and autosomal relation of any country to continental admixtures.

If all citizens shouldn't be included,then how long newcomers and their decedents have to live in Europe to become Europeans and be included in dna statistics? Hundred years? I'm having doubts that even a thousand years are not long enough of our Iberian friends. After all they have a problem including Gipsys into equation. Gipsys would definitely pull Iberia south, a big no no.

So, where do we start to find a pure European for study comparison.
Bronze Age, Iron Age? But wait, millions of impure IE from Asia invaded the continent. Too many fresh emigrants.

Paleolithic? So only I is true europen. Should we include R1a if we find it at that time on west side of Urals?

Should we start with CroMagnon? But wait! Neanderthal was the purest European, after all they lived in Europe for almost a million years. The person with most Neanderthal autosomal dna should be the purest european, if you care.

Knovas
14-09-11, 20:05
You are talking about ancient times when this genetic components surely did not exist, but the main point is that it's plain impossible to put those populations at the same level of the modern ones for obvious reasons. I could say following your logic that some of the "homos" found in Atapuerca who lived 800.000 years ago are the purest Europeans...fantastic argument! LOL. Also, Neanderthals were present in the Near East and very deep in Asia too, so not only "Europeans", the thing is a bit more cosmopolitan as you can imagine.

And another thing, is that 23andme works with Genome Wide comparisons. Then, the margin of error is quite low and the pattern is the same for all people. Greeks show less European similarity because they are more mixed than for example French or Iberians, doesn't matter the antiquity of the admixture and if Greeks colonized Anatolia (with the consequent and logical genome coincidence at some points). That's fact, they carry substantial Near Eastern, but we can discuss how is this possible if you want.

Basques at 23andme show the highest similarities considering BOTH Northern and Southern Europe, and they are the Europeans with less non European affinities. Remember we are refering to Genome Wide coincidence here, so I'm afraid what you try to argue is simply wrong.

Dorianfinder
14-09-11, 21:21
Remember we are refering to Genome Wide coincidence here, so I'm afraid what you try to argue is simply wrong.

Remember that 23andMe does NOT sequence the entire genome, it uses genotyping instead, which is an SNP-based technique. Trust me when I say that I understand your resistence to the thought that statisticians are responsible instead of a super-computer, it's always easier to believe results are machine-based rather than subjective and prone to human fallibility.

A recent study presented at the European Society of Human Genetics concluded that both companies (23andMe & DeCode Genetics) sell inaccurate predictions of disease risks to their customers*.

*Direct-To-Consumer Genetic Tests Neither Accurate in Their Predictions nor Beneficial to Individuals, Study Suggests. 31st May 2011. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110530190344.htm

Below is an admission of the limitations of 23andMe's ancestry division by the company co-founder Linda Avey. She goes on to explain some important points about how the links are established, who establishes them, and confirms some of the issues they experience, namely representation, definition and interpretation of results.

Linda Avey, co-founder of 23andMe wrote:

... it's just the interpretation of what the datapoints means which is, in some cases, early and subject to revision.

Getting wider diversity in genetics research is a key objective of 23andMe...need to figure out waysto attract people of all backgrounds. Once we have enough representation of any given population, the statisticians can see if genetic associations replicate (or discover new ones!).

Knovas
14-09-11, 21:33
Probably some changes would come, of course. However, I don't expect an incredibly great discovery refuting what it's now clear about the Basques. At least, if some interpretation changes focussing on them, it's very likely other populations can be affected for the same reason. And we can go on again and again with this...

Disease Risk goes apart from ancestry, and I don't think results are inaccurate at all, the only "problem" is that it's impossible to assure you'll suffer a concrete illness (I supose that's what they call inaccurate, ¿what else?)...but that's something all people knows or, at least, should know. I can say they listed some Disease Risks wich are present in my family, but you are free to think what you want.

Also, trying to discredit 23andme, clustering studies, admixture analysis, etc., etc...you know, it doesn't look too much serious suggesting all people is wrong.

julia90
14-09-11, 21:42
Externally i have a very mediterranean phenotype, dark brown hair and brown eyes, as well as having a convex nose.

my sking isn't olive, it's quite pale.

my profile as well as hair colour is quite similar to this famous italian girl (on the right):
http://www.supernotizie.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/margherita-zanatta-e-nicole-limonta.jpg
also frontally my face is similar too:
http://www.lanostratv.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/margherita-zanatta-gf-111.jpg

i consider my self akin to dinaromorphic-mediterranean people from italy and the balkans.. i would be typical there.

In my family i have a strong, if not dominant prevalence of this kind of genes.
Mediterranean-dinarid
alpinoid
as well as CM or berid tendencies on some members, like my father and my brother

my father was classified as Adriatid with CM tendencies, my brother as med-berid by people on other sites.
my mother as a kombo like me.

about hair colours, in my family all recorded people were dark brown, with only one grand mother with light brown-blondish hair.
Eye colours change much more, with half of my great-grandparents having light eyes

Knovas
14-09-11, 21:53
First Mediterranean listed in the thread. Welcome ;)

Mzungu mchagga
14-09-11, 21:56
I'm a depigmented Mediterranean.

julia90
14-09-11, 21:56
thanks, althought my head index should be mesochephalic.
my father's head is typically dinarid, high but flat behind.
my brother is very dolichocephalic
my mother is mesochephalic, but more on the brachimorphic side.

Dorianfinder
14-09-11, 22:01
:embarassed:
I'm a depigmented Mediterranean.

... sub-nordic with a slender stature instead of a tall and heavy-set frame.:thinking:

Mzungu mchagga
14-09-11, 22:12
:embarassed:

... sub-nordic with a slender stature instead of a tall and heavy-set frame.:thinking:

Don't know. I am more slender and my face is narrower than most Germans, also my skin is very pale. So when I'm abroad people often think I'm Scandinavian or British. My hair is dark blond, though.

Cambrius (The Red)
14-09-11, 22:30
I'm Celtic / Nordid-Atlantid with some CM. I have medium-to-dark auburn hair and grey eyes.

Wilhelm
30-10-11, 05:35
Remember that 23andMe does NOT sequence the entire genome, it uses genotyping instead, which is an SNP-based technique. Trust me when I say that I understand your resistence to the thought that statisticians are responsible instead of a super-computer, it's always easier to believe results are machine-based rather than subjective and prone to human fallibility.

Of course it's not the whole genome, and it's not even necessary to infer ancestral information, that's why they only use AIMs (Ancestral informative markers) that is , a set of alelles which are more frequent depending on the population. Otherwise the whole genome between humans is pretty much the same.

Knovas
31-10-11, 01:04
What you say makes perfectly sense, Wilhelm. I think the full genome on its proper form, would be much helpful for health and medical information than for ancestry purposes.

Rinconete
31-10-11, 02:32
I think that I'm a light Mediterranean.

Rinconete
31-10-11, 02:39
Much of Welsh and Irish have appearance of Mediterranean. This is because a lot of British people are of Celtiberian descendent.

Antigone
31-10-11, 07:33
Yes there are black haired, dark eyed Irish and Welsh, the actress Catherine Zeta-Jones being Welsh and having an Irish mother is a good example. In Ireland they are called Black Irish, because of the colour of their hair.

But this is confusing, we've had (how many threads now?) with Iberians telling us how blonde haired and blue eyed Celtiberians really are. And if that is the case then how can the dark Welsh and Irish be of Celtiberian descent?

Knovas
31-10-11, 15:40
That's pure demagogy Antigone, exageration of what has been posted here by some Iberians, just think about it. Starting with the fact that they are NOT Celtiberian descent, I don't know from where did Rinconete get this, but it's not accurate to consider such thing. They probably cluster with Irish, not with Iberians, that's sure.

According to the Euro7 Calculator, assuming their similarity with English and Irish people, they get a substantial amount of Southwestern (peaks in Iberia), but it's less important thant the Caucasian + Southeastern admixture (in equal degree). That's probably what makes them dark haired quite usually, although light eyes are not rare in any case.

The main point is: stop twisting things, please.

Taranis
31-10-11, 16:10
This "racial classification" thread, like all the other before, is a trainwreck. Closed.