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Goga
15-09-11, 16:57
R1a can be native to Eastern Europe, R1a can be brought by the Turkic folks and R1a in Eastern Europe can be Iranic too, from the Scythians.

My question is: How much is of R1a in East Europe is native to the region. How much is Germaanic, how much is Slavic, how much is Turkic and how much is Iranic.

Your thoughts please!

Cobol19
15-09-11, 17:02
I think most European R1a1a are native to Eastern Europe, and the R1a1a found in Asia (L342+) is actually absent in Europe with the exception of Jewish and Turkic populations who trace their backgrounds to Asia, here's the spreadsheet of the tested samples so far, the picture is becoming clearer:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CMjR3ssG&key=0AjnH-bSBYrYTdHV0WWR1ZF80anFmbGh0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG

Goga
15-09-11, 17:09
Ok, thaks. Do you know where R1a originally is from? And is there much difference between the Indian and Russian R1a?

"Both Gwozdz and Klyosov also note frequent close STR matching between part of the Indian R1a1a population, and part of the Russian and Slavic R1a1a population, indicating apparent links between these populations in a time-frame more recent than the age of R1a1a overall."

"R1a1a influence into India was not from Europe since the M458 marker is rare in India."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

Cobol19
15-09-11, 17:13
Ok, thaks. Do you know where R1a originally is from? And is there much difference between the Indian and Russian R1a?

"Both Gwozdz and Klyosov also note frequent close STR matching between part of the Indian R1a1a population, and part of the Russian and Slavic R1a1a population, indicating apparent links between these populations in a time-frame more recent than the age of R1a1a overall."

"R1a1a influence into India was not from Europe since the M458 marker is rare in India."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

STR matching is not very accurate since the mutation rate is pretty random (Despite the mutation rate charts and what not), also the difference between Indian and European R1a1a is that all tested Indian men so far seem to carry L342 while the European ones don't, other people who also happen to carry this lineage are Arabs, Turks, Iranians, and Jews.

Since you're Kurdish, the one Kurdish R1a1a sample that tested for this SNP came out positive for the L342, in other words it's more similar to the Arabs/Jews/Indians/Turks/Iranians rather than the European R1a1a.

Goga
15-09-11, 17:19
STR matching is not very accurate since the mutation rate is pretty random (Despite the mutation rate charts and what not), also the difference between Indian and European R1a1a is that all tested Indian men so far seem to carry L342 while the European ones don't, other people who also happen to carry this lineage are Arabs, Turks, Iranians, and Jews.

Since you're Kurdish, the one Kurdish R1a1a sample that tested for this SNP came out positive for the L342, in other words it's more similar to the Arabs/Jews/Indians/Turks/Iranians rather than the European R1a1a.
Ok, but as far as I know R1a in Kurds is Iranic/Aryan, not Indic, Turkish, Slavic, European etc...

Which R1a carried the proto-Indo-European accrording to you? Me, as Kurdish-centric fella, believe that proto-Indo-Europeans carried r1a close to the Kurdish one!

Cobol19
15-09-11, 17:38
Ok, but as far as I know R1a in Kurds is Iranic/Aryan, not Indic, Turkish, Slavic, European etc...

The age of R1a is probably 20,000 years old, the age of the earliest Proto-Indo-Europeans is probably not older than 5000 years old, in other words R1a does not belong to Indo-Europeans only, it also belong to other groups because it predates the existence of Indo-European languages, basically there are no such things as Iranic, Indic, or whatever when it comes to ancient haplogroups like these.


Which R1a carried the proto-Indo-European accrording to you? Me, as Kurdish-centric fella, believe that proto-Indo-Europeans carried r1a close to the Kurdish one!Being Kurdish-centric is irrelevant to the topic, but if you're asking my opinion, I think the ancestors of the Proto-Indo-Europeans carried an older version of R1a, from there some of them went to Europe and others went to Asia, those that went to Asia probably developed L342, the Kurds (Based on the only Kurdish sample that participated), are from the branch that migrated to Asia, whether this was from Indo-Europeans or not, I don't know.

Goga
15-09-11, 17:44
The age of R1a is probably 20,000 years old, the age of the earliest Proto-Indo-Europeans is probably not older than 5000 years old, in other words R1a does not belong to Indo-Europeans only, it also belong to other groups because it predates the existence of Indo-European languages, basically there are no such things as Iranic, Indic, or whatever when it comes to ancient haplogroups like these.

Being Kurdish-centric is irrelevant to the topic, but if you're asking my opinion, I think the ancestors of the Proto-Indo-Europeans carried an older version of R1a, from there some of them went to Europe and others went to Asia, those that went to Asia probably developed L342, the Kurds (Based on the only Kurdish sample that participated), are from the branch that migrated to Asia, whether this was from Indo-Europeans or not, I don't know.So according to you the split occured not so long time ago. 5000 years is not so long in human history. Of course is Kurdish R1a Indo European, I'll go even further to note that the Kurdish R1a is Aryan. Kurdish is an Iranic language, which is part of the greater IE family. And Iranic languages are considered to be the Aryan languages. This proves what I always said, that the West Asian ancestors of the Kurds invaded India!

Cobol19
15-09-11, 18:08
So according to you the split occured not so long time ago. 5000 years is not so long in human history. Of course is Kurdish R1a Indo European, I'll go even further to note that the Kurdish R1a is Aryan. Kurdish is an Iranic language, which is part of the greater IE family. And Iranic languages are considered to be the Aryan languages. This proves what I always said, that the West Asian ancestors of the Kurds invaded India!

Kurdish is an Iranian language, which is indeed from the Indo-Iranian branch that is part of the bigger Indo-European tree, but this has nothing to do with genetics.

Goga
15-09-11, 21:04
Kurdish is an Iranian language, which is indeed from the Indo-Iranian branch that is part of the bigger Indo-European tree, but this has nothing to do with genetics.What's your problem? I started this topic about East European and aimed to put 'Europeans' central in this discussion! This site is about Europe!

I'm just interested how much of R1a in countries, like Ukraine, Poland and Belarus is Germanic, native, Slavic, Turkic or Iranic. That's all.

Languages and haplogroups have everything to do with each ohter. Aryans (with a lot R1a) were IE people.

And please don't be childish and stop being a tr0ll. I don't have time for your games!

Goga
15-09-11, 21:10
How much distance in years is there between native European R1a and R1a around the original homeland of R1a folks?

Alan
15-09-11, 21:28
Hey Goga you as an Yezidi Kurd could you translate this from Kurmanji. I heard today a song it said "Ez Kurdistanim, buka cihanim, sherê mêranî, serê ciyanim.

Alan
15-09-11, 21:39
Since you're Kurdish, the one Kurdish R1a1a sample that tested for this SNP came out positive for the L342, in other words it's more similar to the Arabs/Jews/Indians/Turks/Iranians rather than the European R1a1a.
I saw two definitely Kurdish individuals one from Sulaymaniah Iraq with L342.2 and one from Bitlis Anatolia with predicted z93

Goga
15-09-11, 23:21
Hey Goga you as an Yezidi Kurd could you translate this from Kurmanji. I heard today a song it said "Ez Kurdistanim, buka cihanim, sherê mêranî, serê ciyanim.LOL. What is it, some kind of test or what? Btw, I don't have to proof to you that I'm a Kurd. I don't even know who YOU are.

But for the first and the last time:

"Ez Kurdistanim, buka cihanim, sherê mêranî, serê ciyanim"
"I'm Kurdistan, (I'm a) bride (maiden) of mountains, (I'm a) lion among men, my head is above the shadow".

mêranî = men = knights, nobles
sherê mêranî = I'm the strongest/best among the strongest/best
buka = maiden = untainted/pure/virgin
buka cihanim = pure creature of the mountains
serê ciyanim = I rise above all others, even above my own shadow

This means with other words: I'm the noble one, filled with pride and true greatness ...

This is a highly philosophical, allegorical, deep and patriotic Kurdish/Aryan poem!

Alan
16-09-11, 00:51
Cihan = World
Buka Cihanim = I am a bride of the World.


Doesnt matter what you are but dude you have serious problems sometimes.

Cobol19
16-09-11, 01:40
I saw two definitely Kurdish individuals one from Sulaymaniah Iraq with L342.2 and one from Bitlis Anatolia with predicted z93

I know the one sample from Sulemaniya, I was not aware of the other sample, what's the kit number? Also I'm not sure where z93 falls in this, in fact I'm kind of confused because there are some people who seem negative for L342 yet positive for z93, while others are positive for both SNP's, so technically speaking every L342 should be positive for z93.

There's another SNP under the L342 called L657, it's found in 3 South Asians and 1 Arabian sample, the Kurdish individual from Sulemaniya is testing for it as we speak, I predict he'll most likely come out negative for it but who knows.

Cobol19
16-09-11, 01:41
And please don't be childish and stop being a tr0ll. I don't have time for your games!

Childish and a tr0ll? I gave you my opinion and some facts about R1a, if you think this is a tr0lling, you're the one with the problems.

Alan
16-09-11, 03:43
I know the one sample from Sulemaniya, I was not aware of the other sample, what's the kit number? Also I'm not sure where z93 falls in this, in fact I'm kind of confused because there are some people who seem negative for L342 yet positive for z93, while others are positive for both SNP's, so technically speaking every L342 should be positive for z93.

There's another SNP under the L342 called L657, it's found in 3 South Asians and 1 Arabian sample, the Kurdish individual from Sulemaniya is testing for it as we speak, I predict he'll most likely come out negative for it but who knows.

Till now I knew only about 3 Kurdish individuals tested by 23andme. One of them from Anatolia with ancestors from Northwest Iran. His Haplogroups are G2a3*/C. The second Kurd is from Iraqi Kurdistan-Sulaymaniah and surprisingly R1a1a/H15*. The third individual is from Northwest Iran and belongs to J1e/H15*. His J1e is definitely from Caucasus. His great, great .. Grandfather is known to have been a member of the Qajar Dynasty whom ruled over the Caucasus and his West Asian is very (55%) and his North European was somewhere by 13% in contrary his Mediterranean was unusual low for a Kurd 15%. He is usually mistaken for an Bulgarian/Slav.

Cobol19
16-09-11, 04:56
Till now I knew only about 3 Kurdish individuals tested by 23andme. One of them from Anatolia with ancestors from Northwest Iran. His Haplogroups are G2a3*/C. The second Kurd is from Iraqi Kurdistan-Sulaymaniah and surprisingly R1a1a/H15*. The third individual is from Northwest Iran and belongs to J1e/H15*. His J1e is definitely from Caucasus. His great, great .. Grandfather is known to have been a member of the Qajar Dynasty whom ruled over the Caucasus and his West Asian is very (55%) and his North European was somewhere by 13% in contrary his Mediterranean was unusual low for a Kurd 15%. He is usually mistaken for an Bulgarian/Slav.

I know all these Kurdish people that tested with 23andMe and share with them all, there's also a Kurdish R2a/H15 (Maternal cousin of R1a1a/H15 sample), and apperantly another Kurd based on the Harrapa project that carries I2b1/U1a1 but I don't know him.

As far as the J1c3 Kurd, I understand that his paternal ancestry is Qajar, but he cannot be from the same line of the Qajars since their lineage is the well known documented J1* DYS388=13 lineage, J1c3 is usually DYS388=15 or over.

It would actually be interesting to see him test with FTDNA, I say that because J1c3 was the lineage that migrated from Eastern Anatolia and onto the Levant during the Neolithic times, from there it probably developed into J1c3d and mixed in with men carrying E1b1b1c1 (Offspring of East African E1b1b1), I would say this infusion between these two lineages likely gave rise to the Semitic languages, from there these J1c3d men migrated down to Arabia and into other parts where they spread their Semitic languages.

Alan
16-09-11, 07:07
I know all these Kurdish people that tested with 23andMe and share with them all, there's also a Kurdish R2a/H15 (Maternal cousin of R1a1a/H15 sample), and apperantly another Kurd based on the Harrapa project that carries I2b1/U1a1 but I don't know him.

As far as the J1c3 Kurd, I understand that his paternal ancestry is Qajar, but he cannot be from the same line of the Qajars since their lineage is the well known documented J1* DYS388=13 lineage, J1c3 is usually DYS388=15 or over.

It would actually be interesting to see him test with FTDNA, I say that because J1c3 was the lineage that migrated from Eastern Anatolia and onto the Levant during the Neolithic times, from there it probably developed into J1c3d and mixed in with men carrying E1b1b1c1 (Offspring of East African E1b1b1), I would say this infusion between these two lineages likely gave rise to the Semitic languages, from there these J1c3d men migrated down to Arabia and into other parts where they spread their Semitic languages.

I know another Kurd on FTDNA who is from Jordan but with ancestors from Iraq and is actually a I1(most probably I1b what is known today as I2a2). It seems I* appear as frequently as other Haplogroups. A indication for Nasidze and Nebel studies accuracy. Since now I have heard of 7 Kurds on 23andme and some other confirmed on FTDNA. Beside those listed above there is another Kurd from Diyarbakir with R1b*/U5.

All taken together,
G2a = 2
I* = 2
R1b = 1
R1a1a = 3
J1 = 2
R2a = 1

maternal
U = 2
H = 3
C = 1

Could you tell me more about the R2a Kurd? Where is he from?
And about the J1c3 Kurd, his lineage might as well be one of the original ancestor clades which moved into Levant like you mentioned. I have his facebook I would share the link to his Photo but I think this would be to much privacy. However I think he would have no Problem, if I share the link of a Photo from his Grandfather.

His Grandfather really typical Kurd with his Kalashnikov, the proud look and his mustache.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/34708_1408588656719_1292540136_30962371_1485706_n. jpg

Cobol19
16-09-11, 09:25
I know another Kurd on FTDNA who is from Jordan but with ancestors from Iraq and is actually a I1(most probably I1b what is known today as I2a2). It seems I* appear as frequently as other Haplogroups. A indication for Nasidze and Nebel studies accuracy. Since now I have heard of 7 Kurds on 23andme and some other confirmed on FTDNA. Beside those listed above there is another Kurd from Diyarbakir with R1b*/U5.

I think that person from Jordan is I1 (As in, Scandinavian I1), the reason why I say this because FTDNA is not up to date with the latest changes.


Could you tell me more about the R2a Kurd? Where is he from?He's a Sorani Kurd from Sulemaniya, the maternal cousin of the R1a1a/H15* person.


And about the J1c3 Kurd, his lineage might as well be one of the original ancestor clades which moved into Levant like you mentioned. I have his facebook I would share the link to his Photo but I think this would be to much privacy. However I think he would have no Problem, if I share the link of a Photo from his Grandfather.I know who he is and have seen some of the photos of his ancestor, in fact I spoke to all of these 3 Kurdish individuals on 23andMe and other forums, I'm glad they tested and hope more get tested.

The problem with 23andMe is when they say J1e (Old designation), they don't differentiate between J1c3 or J1c3d, if it's J1c3, it's an Eastern Anatolian/Zagros background and part of the ancestors that migrated down to the Levant, but if it's J1c3d, then it's connected with the expansion of Semitic languages, this is why this person should test with FTDNA.

As you're aware, J1 is actually a popular lineage among the Kurds and other neighboring populations, people often mistake it for an Arab lineage but it's the other way around, it migrated from the Zagros/Eastern Anatolia and down to Arabia, not the other way around, in other words most of the populations that carry J1 around Anatolia/Caucasus/Zagros are indeed natives to those lands.


His Grandfather really typical Kurd with his Kalashnikov, the proud look and his mustache.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/34708_1408588656719_1292540136_30962371_1485706_n. jpgVery cool picture, that type of dress seems more similar in the Iraqi or Iranian Kurdistan region, but I've also seen Kurdish men dress similar in the Hakkari area.

Btw, you should get your DNA tested whenever you get the chance, the more Kurds test the better.

Bodin
18-09-11, 04:39
About subject of tread , I believe out of all R1a in East Europe about 80% i Slavic=Scythian + previous R1a from Yamna culture , about 5% is Germanic ( comed back with Germans in East europe, but it get in to German lands either from Yamna or later with Huns ) , and about 15% of Altay R1a that comed with Huns and later with other Turkmen nations .
There is some Altaic R1a even in Scandinavia , there is no posibility it is not in Russia to

silkyslovanbojkovsky
20-08-13, 20:03
About subject of tread , I believe out of all R1a in East Europe about 80% i Slavic=Scythian + previous R1a from Yamna culture , about 5% is Germanic ( comed back with Germans in East europe, but it get in to German lands either from Yamna or later with Huns ) , and about 15% of Altay R1a that comed with Huns and later with other Turkmen nations .
There is some Altaic R1a even in Scandinavia , there is no posibility it is not in Russia to

Modern Northern Slavic populations seem to have a medium of 50% r1a. Do you think the original slavs had a similar percentage of R1a or much higher?

MOESAN
24-08-13, 19:55
The age of R1a is probably 20,000 years old, the age of the earliest Proto-Indo-Europeans is probably not older than 5000 years old, in other words R1a does not belong to Indo-Europeans only, it also belong to other groups because it predates the existence of Indo-European languages, basically there are no such things as Iranic, Indic, or whatever when it comes to ancient haplogroups like these.

Being Kurdish-centric is irrelevant to the topic, but if you're asking my opinion, I think the ancestors of the Proto-Indo-Europeans carried an older version of R1a, from there some of them went to Europe and others went to Asia, those that went to Asia probably developed L342, the Kurds (Based on the only Kurdish sample that participated), are from the branch that migrated to Asia, whether this was from Indo-Europeans or not, I don't know.

Just a question of methods: I don't contredict you nor agree with you just now but:
being an HG older than the I-E language cirstallization is not the proof an Y-HG (R1a here by instance, but it remains true for other HGs) was common among other cultures and tribes: not by itself: an HG can remain scarce enough a long time and remain typical of a small population before expanding and the language of this population even if DATED to a certain time can have been elaborated on place (or during movements) by this population: the process BEGINNING EARLIER (as every language before individualization) - just concerning the reasoning... I don't say it is by forece the case for Y-R1a