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Maciamo
17-09-11, 13:10
Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Southwest-Asian-admixture.gif

Taranis
17-09-11, 13:17
I agree about the correlation with J1 and T, but don't you think that there is a (small) component of J2 to this as well?

If you compare:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

By the way, I agree that the absence in northeastern Iberia is very interesting.

Maciamo
17-09-11, 13:34
There could be some minor subclades of J2 specific to Southwest Asia (Levant ?), but it's hard to say because J1 and J2 have a similar distribution in Europe (peak in Italy and Greece). In the Middle East and North Africa, it is pretty clear that the Southwest Asian component is much more J1 than J2. Then J1 is absent from the Basque country, Catalonia and Valencia and so is the Southwest Asian component.

Anyway, the determinant factor is the frequency. J2 is so much higher in Europe than J1 that there is no doubt that the Southwest Asian element is not J2.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

The correlation works best where frequencies are the highest. It's only natural to find some discrepancies in northern Europe because we are dealing with very low frequencies of J1 that do not always show up in small population samples. For example in Belgium, the Brabant DNA Project found the highest percentage of J1 in Brabant itself, because 1/3 of the 1000 samples for Belgium came from that region. If each province had, say 300 or 500 samples, I am sure that the J1 distribution would be more evenly spread.

In the British Isles, a lot of J1 and T was probably replaced by R1b. In Scandinavia there might very well be more J1, but Scandinavian countries have some of the smallest sample sizes in Europe for Y-DNA. Same for Switzerland and Austria. The J1 map shows a hole around these two countries but it is likely due to under-sampling.

Knovas
17-09-11, 13:40
I think it's possible some of the J2 in the Northeast Iberian side could be J2b broght by the Romans. In my opinion this should reduce Southwest Asian admixture, as well as West Asian. J2b has been found even in people of English descent probably due to similar reasons.

Goga
17-09-11, 15:09
Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

Thank you very much for your maps. But Southwest Asian admixtrue only correlates with some subclades of J1.

There's very much J1 in the Caucasus, while accroding to your map, there's no Southwest Asian admixtrue there.

Accroding to me Southwest Asian admixture only correlates with T, some subclades of E and some (Semitic) subclades of J1!

Goga
17-09-11, 15:13
Original J1 is not from Southwest Asian, but is West Asian.

Maciamo
17-09-11, 21:19
Original J1 is not from Southwest Asian, but is West Asian.

It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.

Wilhelm
17-09-11, 21:43
I don't know why is Andalusia in different shade. The Behar sample has 6 out of 12 andalusians and the SW-Asian is even lower than Scandinavians.

Goga
17-09-11, 22:34
It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.
You're absolutely right. Much J1 in West Asian is Southwest Asian. There is a lot J1 Semitic, from the ancient Assyrians, Jews and Arabs.
But there's also some native Caucasian J1 that was never in Southwest Asia. So I think we can better consider it as a West Asian subclade.

I truly believe that some E is Southwest Asian and again from the Assyrians & Jews.
Some people believe that the lost 10 tribes of Israel settled in the Mesopotamia!

Wilhelm
18-09-11, 00:55
I agree about the correlation with J1 and T, but don't you think that there is a (small) component of J2 to this as well?

If you compare:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

By the way, I agree that the absence in northeastern Iberia is very interesting.
This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. In France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005

Bodin
18-09-11, 02:08
Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Southwest-Asian-admixture.gif
Another realy interesting hole around Pirrinei - same case with G in Basque . And also around Baltic sea , now I am even more convinced in posibility Basque R1b population came by sea from Baltic coast - maybe Latvia

zanipolo
18-09-11, 02:24
This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. In France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005


where did you get this information from?

I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links

Wilhelm
18-09-11, 02:49
where did you get this information from?

I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links
Actually the table of Eupedia has 2% for Catalonia and 3% for Galicia. The phoenician-greek ? Please don't make me laugh. They were insiginificant.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-09-11, 03:04
Phoenicians and Greeks in NW Iberia?:confused2: I know there were Viking settlements in the region (Povoa de Varzim and Vila do Conde - Douro and Minho provinces, Portugal) but Phoenician and Greek communities?

zanipolo
18-09-11, 03:35
Phoenicians and Greeks in NW Iberia?:confused2: I know there were Viking settlements in the region (Povoa de Varzim and Vila do Conde - Douro and Minho provinces, Portugal) but Phoenician and Greek communities?

:startled: :good_job:

my mistake , its only greek, majorca is not catalan so thats where I thought of the phoenicians

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/

Wilhelm
18-09-11, 03:52
:startled: :good_job:

my mistake , its only greek, majorca is not catalan so thats where I thought of the phoenicians

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/
well, Majorca has 5% of J2 at iberianroots. Vast majority of ethnic majorcans are of catalan descend. Phoenicians were just traders, they were overall a very insignificant population.

zanipolo
18-09-11, 03:58
well, Majorca has 5% of J2 at iberianroots. Vast majority of ethnic majorcans are of catalan descend. Phoenicians were just traders, they were overall a very insignificant population.


I know majorca are of catalan descent, someone else said there was no phoenicians in catalan lands.

Did you read the link .....Phoenicians are J2 and basically nothing else.

Insignificant ?. depends on how long they stayed, what was there association with its neighbours etc etc.
besides , they ended up being the carthagians in the western Med. Catagians , a mix of phoenicians, libyans, numidians and maybe even sardinians and sicilians

Maciamo
18-09-11, 09:35
I forgot to mention that R1b1c (V88) should also be part of the Southwest Asian admixture. That's why places like Ireland, Scotland or Scandinavia, which have close to no J1, still have about 2% of Southwest Asian admixture. Most of it probably comes from this South Levantine subclade of R1b (the most common type of R1b among Jewish people).

Maciamo
18-09-11, 10:10
This map is wrong. Galicia and Catalonia have 3% and 2% respectively, should be in the 1-5% range, no way they are 5-10% like in the map. Also, North-Italy should be in the 10-15% range. I

You are right about Spain because I revised the frequencies after making the map. North Italy has different frequencies in the east and west.


n France, in the region of Paris, there is a hotspot of 15% (N=109) as found by Athey 2005

Link please.

Wilhelm
18-09-11, 17:37
Link please.
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf

Cambrius (The Red)
18-09-11, 17:55
I know majorca are of catalan descent, someone else said there was no phoenicians in catalan lands.

Did you read the link .....Phoenicians are J2 and basically nothing else.

Insignificant ?. depends on how long they stayed, what was there association with its neighbours etc etc.
besides , they ended up being the carthagians in the western Med. Catagians , a mix of phoenicians, libyans, numidians and maybe even sardinians and sicilians

The Phoenicians established a few small and self contained trading territories in parts of southern Spain and southern Portugal. They also founded Lisbon (Ollisipo), which did not become a population center of any import until many centuries after the Phoenicians departed. There is no evidence suggesting that Phoenicians mixed freely with native Iberians. It is unlikely that they had much direct genetic impact on Iberia.

Knovas
18-09-11, 18:06
Interesting point, it makes sense.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 18:56
You're absolutely right. Much J1 in West Asian is Southwest Asian. There is a lot J1 Semitic, from the ancient Assyrians, Jews and Arabs.
But there's also some native Caucasian J1 that was never in Southwest Asia. So I think we can better consider it as a West Asian subclade.

I truly believe that some E is Southwest Asian and again from the Assyrians & Jews.
Some people believe that the lost 10 tribes of Israel settled in the Mesopotamia!

The J1 in Assyrians is mostly the Anatolian native type (J1* DYS388 = 13), which is also found among other Anatolian/Caucasian populations and peaks in the Caucasus, the Semitic J1 type (J1c3d) is actually rare among them, but about 5% or so carry haplogroup E1b1b1c1 which is the E that originated in the Levant and was responsible (Along with J1c3d) for the Semitic languages, so if anything, I would say this paternal lineage was mostly responsible for bringing the Semitic language to the native Assyrians who mostly happen to carry R1b (Though a good chunk of it is similar to the European kind), J1*, J2a, and T.

Cobol19
18-09-11, 18:59
It doesn't matter. There is no label on the genes that says "Southwest Asian". It just happened that the J1 population carried genes that are now more common in Southwest Asia, regardless of where they originated.

Another more obvious example is R1b, which probably arose in Central Asia, but spend a long time in the Middle East (late Paleolithic to Neolithic) but is now more common in Western Europe. In the Dodecad admixture, R1b correlates mostly with "West European" but also with "Mediterranean", even though it was absent from Europe until approximately 4500 years ago.

Actually the subclade matters a lot, J1* is rare in Arabs but common in Anatolian/Caucasian populations, J1c3d on the other hand is the extremely common subclade in Arabs/Jews (But not so among Assyrians which is surprising).

Nova123
18-09-11, 19:21
E1b1b1c1 which is the E that originated in the Levant and was responsible (Along with J1c3d) for the Semitic languages

incorrect :useless:

Goga
18-09-11, 19:30
The J1 in Assyrians is mostly the Anatolian native type (J1* DYS388 = 13), which is also found among other Anatolian/Caucasian populations and peaks in the Caucasus, the Semitic J1 type (J1c3d) is actually rare among them, but about 5% or so carry haplogroup E1b1b1c1 which is the E that originated in the Levant and was responsible (Along with J1c3d) for the Semitic languages, so if anything, I would say this paternal lineage was mostly responsible for bringing the Semitic language to the native Assyrians who mostly happen to carry R1b (Though a good chunk of it is similar to the European kind), J1*, J2a, and T.Assyrians have for about 28.6 % of J1!
10.7 % is J-P58 and 17.9 % J1 but not P58.

So 10.7 % of J1 in Assyrians is Semitic / SouthWest Asian.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/?tool=pmcentrez

Cobol19
18-09-11, 19:35
incorrect :useless:

What exactly is incorrect? The latter is my opinion, and the former has evidence supporting it:


"E-M34 chromosomes were more likely introduced in Ethiopia from the Near East."

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

Cobol19
18-09-11, 19:41
Assyrians have for about 28.6 % of J1!
10.7 % is J-P58 and 17.9 % J1 but not P58.

So 10.7 % of J1 in Assyrians is Semitic / SouthWest Asian.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/?tool=pmcentrez

J-P58 is J1c3, not J1c3d (Semitic J1), check out the variance map of J1c3 in figure 1 (Map e), that hot spot is the origins for this lineage.

Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).

Semitic Duwa
02-10-11, 00:54
J-P58 is J1c3, not J1c3d (Semitic J1), check out the variance map of J1c3 in figure 1 (Map e), that hot spot is the origins for this lineage.

Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).

Happy to see you make the distinction, but the focus on J1c3d only is kind of childish tbh... Other J1 subclades such as J1c2 and J1c3c (while the J1* in the Horn of Africa may have been involved in the original spread of Afroasiatic [this would explain the J1 frequency in the Canary islands, unfortunately P58 and L147.1 weren't tested for...]) probably migrated along with L147.1 so a Semitic association may also prove to be wise for now.
On the other hand you get the J1c3a (with 13 repeats at DYS388) subclade which confirms P58's Zagros origin in a sense, and provides a bigger picture of J1's role amongst Northeast Caucasian speakers (it also makes a fair case for the Alarodian language theory, King did point it out as well).

Goga
02-10-11, 01:20
Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).
10.7% J-P58 (J1c3) + 17.9% J1 but not P58 among Assyrians modern Iraq:

Assyrians in Iraq = 28.6% of J1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1

Semitic Duwa
02-10-11, 14:24
incorrect :useless:


How so? This is also Roy King's view, Andrew Lancaster and others also maintain this scenario.

Cobol19
02-10-11, 19:36
10.7% J-P58 (J1c3) + 17.9% J1 but not P58 among Assyrians modern Iraq:

Assyrians in Iraq = 28.6% of J1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1

In your original post you said "Assyrians", not "Assyrians in Iraq", look at the chart again, adding Assyrians all together (From Iraq, Iran, Turkey, and Syria) gives you 6.1% J1c3 and and 10.5% J1*.


Happy to see you make the distinction, but the focus on J1c3d only is kind of childish tbh... Other J1 subclades such as J1c2 and J1c3c (while the J1* in the Horn of Africa may have been involved in the original spread of Afroasiatic [this would explain the J1 frequency in the Canary islands, unfortunately P58 and L147.1 weren't tested for...]) probably migrated along with L147.1 so a Semitic association may also prove to be wise for now.
On the other hand you get the J1c3a (with 13 repeats at DYS388) subclade which confirms P58's Zagros origin in a sense, and provides a bigger picture of J1's role amongst Northeast Caucasian speakers (it also makes a fair case for the Alarodian language theory, King did point it out as well).

The Afro-Asiatic might have an actual African root rather than Caucasian, the Semitic on the other hand might be a mixture of these Caucasians that you speak of and some of the Afro-Asiatic folks from Northeast Africa.

The J1* seen in Eastern Africa might actually predate the expansion of Semitic languages since it seems kind of odd that J1* is rather not common all the way across Arabia then all of the sudden it shows up in East Africa.

Semitic Duwa
02-10-11, 20:49
The Afro-Asiatic might have an actual African root rather than Caucasian, the Semitic on the other hand might be a mixture of these Caucasians that you speak of and some of the Afro-Asiatic folks from Northeast Africa.

Precisely, an African root for Afroasiatic... Thus the J1* link would explain the Caucasian words found in african branches of Afroasiatic (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/306/5702/1680.3.full).
We reach a consensus regarding Semitic.


The J1* seen in Eastern Africa might actually predate the expansion of Semitic languages since it seems kind of odd that J1* is rather not common all the way across Arabia then all of the sudden it shows up in East Africa.

Which might tie it to the expansion of Afroasiatic in the long term, which is why I made such a statement.

Cobol19
02-10-11, 21:18
Which might tie it to the expansion of Afroasiatic in the long term, which is why I made such a statement.

My point is it seems like the J1* that's sitting in Eastern Africa did not really play a role in the expansion of the Semitic languages like say, J1c3d, so it must have been a clan of J1* folks that migrated from the North (Possibly Anatolia) and all the way down to East Africa before there was such thing as Semitic languages, basically I was answering this quote:


"So 10.7 % of J1 in Assyrians is Semitic"

Taranis
02-10-11, 21:24
I always thought that an African, rather than Eurasian origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages as a whole is more likely, since all but one branch (Semitic) are found in Africa. Having said this, we don't really know. The Afro-Asiatic languages are probably the oldest conceivable and undisputed language family we know, so there is the possibility it might be different.

Cobol19
02-10-11, 21:34
I always thought that an African, rather than Eurasian origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages as a whole is more likely, since all but one branch (Semitic) are found in Africa. Having said this, we don't really know. The Afro-Asiatic languages are probably the oldest conceivable and undisputed language family we know, so there is the possibility it might be different.

It is more African as a whole, but there are Caucasian words found in some of these Afro-Asiatic languages.

Semitic Duwa
02-10-11, 23:35
My point is it seems like the J1* that's sitting in Eastern Africa did not really play a role in the expansion of the Semitic languages like say, J1c3d so it must have been a clan of J1* folks that migrated from the North (Possibly Anatolia) and all the way down to East Africa before there was such thing as Semitic languages.

I share this view, what I meant is that J1* (along with E1b1b1 and R1b1c) might've been involved in the dispersion of original Afroasiatic from and within the Horn (Afroasiatic probably originated in East Africa if not in the Horn itself)... Which could also explain Caucasian words in african branches of Afroasiatic and J1*'s frequency amongst the Guanche (however I regret the fact that P58 wasn't tested for).
We are in total agreement.

Wilhelm
05-10-11, 22:06
Something about the map in Iberia : There is only one southwestern Iberian and he has 0% SW-Asia

Taranis
05-10-11, 22:27
Something about the map in Iberia : There is only one southwestern Iberian and he has 0% SW-Asia

Wilhelm, I'm growing tired of your denial about even the slightest bit of non-European influence on the in Iberian penninsula. The Phoenicians and the Moors both were there for nearly 800 years and it's somewhat unlikely that they didn't have the slightest impact. And I also somehow find it a tad unlikely that there has been no influence whatsoever swapping over from Africa given how the straight of Gibraltar is a mere 14 kilometers wide and I find it a tad unlikely that nobody crossed it in the past 10,000 years. I've given more than one informal warning, now I give you an infraction.

Wilhelm
05-10-11, 23:45
Wilhelm, I'm growing tired of your denial about even the slightest bit of non-European influence on the in Iberian penninsula. The Phoenicians and the Moors both were there for nearly 800 years and it's somewhat unlikely that they didn't have the slightest impact. And I also somehow find it a tad unlikely that there has been no influence whatsoever swapping over from Africa given how the straight of Gibraltar is a mere 14 kilometers wide and I find it a tad unlikely that nobody crossed it in the past 10,000 years. I've given more than one informal warning, now I give you an infraction.
What the hell are you talking about ?? This map is about DODECAD Project and is based on it's participants of that project. And you send me an infraction...really. For speaking the truth ? It's not my fault that the only southwestern iberian participant has 0% of Southwest-Asian, you can check it for yourself.

Sile
06-10-11, 09:54
I have found these numbers and links which seems to be lower number for E in the iberian peninsula.

E1b1b1b is M81, which is sometimes referred to as the
"Berber marker". It seems that E1b1b1a-b is E-V65.

In terms of a percentage of the male population in those specific geographic
areas covered by this paper, based on 2300 South European men from Iberia
and Sicily who were sampled, the authors concluded as follows:

For
M81 in Spain 5.2%
M81 in Portugal 5.0%
M81 in Peninsular Italy 0.8%

For
V65 in Spain 1.0%
V65 in Portugal 0.3%
V65 in Peninsular Italy 0.3%

These percentages are consistent with the Flores paper in 2004 (European
Journal of Human Genetics (2004) 12, 855-863), Neto in 2007 (American
Journal of Human Biology 19:000-000 (2007)) and Beleza in 2006 (Annals of
Human Genetics (2006) 70,181-194.

The E numbers for marciano must include other people. Since the phoenicians used souther iberia as a port of call to travel to Vannes Brittany and trade with the brittany veneti ( who traded with the welsh ) for Tin , should show ( maybe not ) some exchange in people.

then there is this
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-06/1212735072

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=VKISiDr6CnMC&pg=PA104&dq=spain+in+the+bronze+age&hl=en#v=onepage&q=spain%20in%20the%20bronze%20age&f=false

Knovas
06-10-11, 10:02
I think Maciamo infered some percents using haplogroup frequencies when there was lack of data or the number of samples was too low. Probably that's what happened here.

I agree that in the Southwestern side must be some non European element at higher percent than the average of Iberia, but we have little evidence that Southwest Asian is in the range listed in the map. In my opinion is okey for the moment, but it's possible that what it's really found at slightly higher level is Northwest African, rather than Southwest Asian.

Basically, I'm not sure about the Phoenician impact genetically speaking, although they were known for their business there. Note that, for example in Catalunya, Phoenicians are very recognized to be there developing comercial activity, but the genetic impact seems to be 0% at all effects. Insignificant.

Taranis
06-10-11, 15:25
Basically, I'm not sure about the Phoenician impact genetically speaking, although they were known for their business there. Note that, for example in Catalunya, Phoenicians are very recognized to be there developing comercial activity, but the genetic impact seems to be 0% at all effects. Insignificant.

Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.

Wilhelm
06-10-11, 16:00
Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.
Well sorry, but their impact there is also insignificant, you like it or not. Because for example, the predominant subclade of E in the Levant is E-V22 which is found at 0% in Andalusia (see Iberianroots). Also the sublcade J1 in the Levant is found at more than 20%, yet in Andalusia you have 2%, also the ratio J1/J2 is completely different, in the Levant is almost event, or even the J1 is higher than J2. I know you are going to ban me again but...I can't help but to speak the truth.

zanipolo
07-10-11, 08:04
Actually, in regard for Catalonia, that does not come as a surprise. Phoenician settlements were in south, along the coast of Andalusia. It was only during the decades that led up to the Punic Wars that the Carthaginians expanded their influence along the Iberian east coast. Cadiz is one of the oldest - if not the oldest - city in Western Europe, and it is there where you can expect the largest impact of the Phoenicians.

you are correct, link below has percentages and where studies where gathered
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29

so, southern Spanish areas did have the "phoenician" e v-22.

Site is also correct on the sicilians, always infested with greek or Phoenician/carthagianian people.

the interesting one is e - m78 . what does macedonian romani mean ?......romans for roma gypies. If they are gypies, is kosovar the migration area where they settled from asia?

zanipolo
07-10-11, 08:06
Well sorry, but their impact there is also insignificant, you like it or not. Because for example, the predominant subclade of E in the Levant is E-V22 which is found at 0% in Andalusia (see Iberianroots). Also the sublcade J1 in the Levant is found at more than 20%, yet in Andalusia you have 2%, also the ratio J1/J2 is completely different, in the Levant is almost event, or even the J1 is higher than J2. I know you are going to ban me again but...I can't help but to speak the truth.

andalusia has 4.44% of E-V22 .............see link in post #45

Knovas
07-10-11, 14:04
Iberianroots is much more reliable than Wikipedia. More samples will show things clearer.

Wilhelm
07-10-11, 16:12
andalusia has 4.44% of E-V22 .............see link in post #45
Wikipedia seriously ? And please read well, because it says Asturias, not Andalusia.

Goga
07-10-11, 16:19
Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

zanipolo
07-10-11, 20:52
Wikipedia seriously ? And please read well, because it says Asturias, not Andalusia.


link in post #49 is what wiki used.

I was in error about Andulasia
The Principality of Asturias (Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language): Principado de Asturias, IPA: [pɾinθiˈpaðo ðe asˈtuɾjas] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Spanish); Asturian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturian_language): Principáu d'Asturies, IPA: [pɾinθiˈpau ðasˈtuɾjes] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA)) is an autonomous community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spain) of the Kingdom of Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Spain), coextensive with the former Kingdom of Asturias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Asturias) in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages). The autonomous community of Asturias is bordered by Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria) to the east, by Castile and León (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_and_Le%C3%B3n) to the south, by Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Spain%29) to the west, and by the Bay of Biscay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Biscay) to the north.

still, there was 3.23% in souther Spain

Nova123
14-10-11, 18:30
I always thought that an African, rather than Eurasian origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages as a whole is more likely, since all but one branch (Semitic) are found in Africa. Having said this, we don't really know. The Afro-Asiatic languages are probably the oldest conceivable and undisputed language family we know, so there is the possibility it might be different.

What counts is the edge of the original Porto- Afro-Asiatic speakers over the early adopters

Diversity does not really mean origin

Alan
16-10-11, 04:13
J-P58 is J1c3, not J1c3d (Semitic J1), check out the variance map of J1c3 in figure 1 (Map e), that hot spot is the origins for this lineage.

Btw, where did you come up with 10.7% J1c3? I can only count 7.6% (Which is very similar to the Kurds btw, they carry 7.4%).

I would ad Southern(Iraqi) Kurdish because the samples are from Noirth Iraq you can read in the source. And J1c3 most probably originated somewhere in Mesopotamia-Zagros and moved into the Arabic Peninsula mutating into J1c3d (which is the real Semitic marker).

MOESAN
15-08-12, 23:45
just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!

MOESAN
09-11-12, 17:30
I posted something in a thread about Ötzi (ancient DNA) and the big enough amount of SW Asian he showed, strange for a Y-G2 man of Cardial or just Post-Cardial cultural affiliation (Anatolian geographic first origin?) - we can imagine that this component was present also among Neolithic farmers of N-Fertile Crescent but I imagine too that its presence can be older than Neolithic in Mediterranea surroundings - females mediated in Ötzi 's people? (Y-E1b is old enough there!)

Yaan
24-09-13, 20:35
Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)

Maciamo
24-09-13, 22:55
Would u please change the map it gives the wrong information that in the biggest part of Bulgaria there is between 5%-10% of J1 and this admixture. This is not true. It is between 2%-3.5%.Data should be fixed!Thanks :)

This map is not J1 but Southwest Asian admixture from the Dodecad K=12 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0). Bulgarians have an average of 5%.

Angela
24-09-13, 23:58
just to put some thoughts: I don't know if it will bring things up:

for the 'southwest asian' concept, or 'Red Sea' for some ones, I suppose it reposes on a population where Y-E1b was dominant at first - it is possible that Y-J1 and Y-J2 got down in Arabia, in a position of rulers or initiators and bringing more males than females - Y-J could be linked more to a part of the 'west asian' concept, other parts of 'west asian' being more linked to Y-G ?

one other hand, when comparing autosomals of Muslim Yemenese to Jews Yemenese in dode10, we see a very close repartition only for some 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' components among Muslims: it put me to conclude that Jews there lived in a more close endogamy (I suppose the 'subsaharian' and 'south asian' comp- are from female among Muslims) and that the 'southwest asian' component was previously of almost "pure" caucasian phenotypes even if "african" by geographic origin, phénotypes that we see clearly acting in the Ethiopian population linked to their admixture -
I have no record, I believe it was on Dieneke's, I saw not a mean result of autosomals but a set of 10 different Yemenese men: this sample showed for every person a father & mother component: and , if I don' mistake, all of them presented a small but consistant amount of father = mother 'subafrican' when 1 fo them show a very bigger (almost 50%?) mother 'subafrican' component compared to father - surely it need more data to establish a law, but it seam that the gene stream from 'subafrican' in this region is principally by women (mothers): except for footballers children!!!

Didn't see this until today. I totally agree that J1 as well as J2 are probably associated with the West Asian component. (Along with G2, of course.) Everything I've seen, including variance, indicates that J1 formed in the northern Middle East. I believe that some of the non "Arabian" J1 was part of Neolithic migrations into Europe. J1's tremendous dominance in the southern Levant is, I think, the result of a founder effect that has been amplified by the patriarchal, clan based nature of the culture.

I also agree that the sub-saharan is usually female mediated.

As for E1b1b, I am more and more persuaded by recent papers on the area that those who posited in the past that "E" separated from DE after the initial migration Out of Africa, perhaps in the Arabian peninsula itself, and then back migrated into Africa. Part of it also went north through the Levant and into Europe via Anatolia, the Balkans, and Greece etc., and part of it migrated across North Africa and through the straits of Gibralta into Iberia.

It's true as well that the Southwest Asian was present in Oetzi, and at levels even higher than exist in northern Italy today, but even more interesting, perhaps, it is at approximately the same level in Gok 4, even though her genome shows, I think, more admixture with western, pre-existing populations.

Whether that is down to the E1b1b and J1 that came with the Neolithic is an intriguing question as well. I've seen some studies that proposed a Mesolithic arrival of E1b1b into the Balkans. In that case, there would have been acculturation of these groups into a Neolithic way of life. I wish they would hurry up and publish the results from all those tests of Mesolithic and Neolithic Balkan samples.

Yaan
25-09-13, 08:28
This map is not J1 but Southwest Asian admixture from the Dodecad K=12 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0). Bulgarians have an average of 5%.
Based on what? I do not believe that!!

MOESAN
27-09-13, 20:07
where did you get this information from?

I am surprised that catalonia has a low count as they have greek and Phoenician ancient links

apprently Phoenicians and Greeks colonies left only few genetic traces in western Europe (maybe more concerning Greeks) - and Catalunia/Catalunya is not only a coastal region...

MOESAN
27-09-13, 20:13
some historians of the first half of the past century said Arabic today populations were come from more northern lands (so Near Eastern) before a "come back" later ?!? so ? surely the "fronteer" between the two grouping of 'westasian' and 'southwestasian' are very thin -

Tabaccus Maximus
29-09-13, 19:00
Let's continue the series of autosomal maps. Here is the Southwest Asian admixture, which has a strong Semitic component to it, and correlates best with Y-haplogroups J1 and to a lower extent T.

It's interesting that the Northeast Iberians almost completely lack this admixture while all Germanic people have it. It is nearly absent from the Baltic people, lower than 1% in most Slavs except Ukrainians and southern Russians and of course Balkan Slavs.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Southwest-Asian-admixture.gif

The Unfield culture that originated in the Southwest Balkans, and its descendant cultures such as Jastorf, might explain the SW component in Germanic peoples and its descendant cultures but not Basque country. People mistakenly believe that Urnfield was a product of Tumulus, it was not. Urnfield slowly eclipsed Tumulus with a new warrior class (Balkans), new religion and new technology. Urnfield may have been pre-Proto-Germanic where it survived in the Jastorf area where it later became Proto-Germanic. In other words, the SW Asian component was never 'necessarily' part of populations with high representation of R1b. Perhaps the nucleus of R1b was further East, such as Iranian Mountains where the admixture had not yet spread. One last point, looking at the lack of SW in Basque/Iberians we are again faced with the direct settlement of Western Europe via water, not land, by R1b people. Of course that is assuming, as Dienekes suggested, that there isn't some sort of simple male bias thing going on being such a small population.

Fire Haired
29-09-13, 20:13
TB Urnfield(1,300-750bc) was decended of Tumulus. and is very central European it is what most likely spread R1b1a2a1a2b S28 and with it it spread to Italy with Italian languages. It is also the father of Hallstat Celtic then la Tene culture which spread R1b S28 even more. How would Urnfield be proto Germanic when Germanic marker R1b1a2a1a1 S21 us estimates as 4,000-5,500y years old at least 1,000 years before Urnfield even began. Plus Germanic speakers were stuck in far northern Europe and made major migrations starting in about 700bc. While Hallstat Celts dominated most of modern Germany and areas of Urnfield. You theory has a lot of holes in it. When you say R1b I thi9nk you should name the subclade because there are so many different people with y DNa R1b.

Alexandros
24-10-13, 19:39
Hi Maciamo. Did you come across any data from Crete? I wonder if Cretans have the same southwest Asian admixture as mainland Greeks, especially northern Greeks. I have searched the Dodecad project's reference population and I cannot identify the origin of the Greeks included in there. In general, Cretans are surprisingly missing from the major calculators of both the Dodecad and the Eurogenes projects.

Blanco
21-03-17, 23:22
http://mapas.owje.com/img/Mapa-cronologico-del-Imperio-arabe-632-945-11718.png
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/ca/c1/14cac1923ae127cb9de3881c97f363be.jpg