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sparkey
19-09-11, 20:44
I don't expect Maciamo to make maps for the fairly rare and dispersed I2c (L596+ L597+) subclade, but as it's mine and I think it's an interesting subclade that tells some interesting stories, I decided to make a couple of rough maps myself.

Unfortunately, few studies have singled out I2c sufficiently to make good maps... so I'm relying a lot on sample-biased hobbyist data.

My major sources and their results:
Primary distribution data from I2*, new ISOGG I2b and I2c Haplogroup Project
6% in Crete per King et al 2008
4% in Kazbegi per Wells et al 2001, 0% among other Georgians
9% among Georgians per 23andMe
0% among Georgians per Litvinov et al 2010
0% among Georgians per Battaglia et al 2008
4% among Armenians per Wells et al 2001
4% among Armenians per Armenian DNA Project
non-trace levels among Emmentalers per The Swiss Anabaptist DNA Project
non-trace levels among Clan Wallace per Wallace-WALLIS Y-DNA Project

The frequency map:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8793/frequencyi2c.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/frequencyi2c.png/)

The diversity map:
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2339/diversityi2cj.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/diversityi2cj.png/)

I am also attaching the images to this post in case the ImageShack links ever go bad:
51725173

Cobol19
19-09-11, 21:04
Well, at least you're providing some kind of sources, I'll give you credit just for that since it seems like an ethical approach :good_job:

Though I agree with you, being from rare lineages makes it tough to come up with some sort of conclusion, what did you use to make the maps btw?

sparkey
19-09-11, 21:21
Well, at least you're providing some kind of sources, I'll give you credit just for that since it seems like an ethical approach :good_job:

Though I agree with you, being from rare lineages makes it tough to come up with some sort of conclusion, what did you use to make the maps btw?

I just used MS Paint actually... since it was only three shades it wasn't difficult to just do approximations with the few data points I had. The original map had national borders that were helpful to plot the data points accurately, but I removed them to keep the geographical flow (just realized that I missed the N. Ireland border, whoops).

Goga
19-09-11, 21:30
Great job! How old is I2c?

What stories tells this subclade according to you?

Maybe it was part of the ancient Hittites from Europe who settled in Asia Minor?


Edit: changed J2c in I2c!

sparkey
19-09-11, 21:40
Great job! How old is J2c?

I2c you mean? It's between ~7,000 (its approximate TMRCA) and ~12,500 (its approximate TMRCA with I2b-ADR) years old. Its distribution in its lower diversity areas are going to be explained by much younger migrations, though.


What stories tells this subclade according to you?

Well I suppose I should say that it has the potential to tell a lot of stories. It may be the best subclade for tracing certain European backmigrations into Asia. It has a couple of interesting apparent expansions in Western Europe, namely within the Brythonic area of Scotland and into the Emmental in Switzerland. It had a major expansion on Crete. How all these happened could be quite interesting to investigate.


Maybe it was part of the ancient Hittites from Europe who settled in Asia Minor?

Well most of the data points in Asia I had to work with were from ethnic Armenians, and I'm not sure how they got it. Another note is that most of the Eastern Europeans with I2c are ethnic Jews.

Goga
19-09-11, 22:02
Thank you.

Before WW1 many Armenians lived in NorthEast Anatolia, above Lake Van.

haithabu
20-09-11, 03:36
Nice maps. The presence of I2c in the Caucasus as well as in the south Germany/Alpine region makes me wonder if it might have spread with G2a at some point.

LeBrok
20-09-11, 05:01
Great job Sparkey! Now we are going to expect more from you... :grin:

sparkey
20-09-11, 07:05
Nice maps. The presence of I2c in the Caucasus as well as in the south Germany/Alpine region makes me wonder if it might have spread with G2a at some point.

With me, haithabu, and Kardu all posting recently, I2c people are represented here!

The fact that both Germany and England have all three major clusters and the fact that only one cluster is present east of Central Europe (see the diversity map) makes it pretty clear that there isn't a real East-to-West spread, at least outside of the B cluster that spreads into Asia. I really don't see a correlation between the A and C clusters and G2a, and B is pretty young.

Antigone
20-09-11, 08:31
Nice work Sparkey. It is interesting that the traces are very spread over a wide area and each section completely isolated from the next. Almost as if 12C parachuted into each location! lol

Is there a theory as to why Crete has the highest frequency?

sparkey
20-09-11, 09:10
Is there a theory as to why Crete has the highest frequency?

Well they were obviously seafaring, but we're not sure about their source. They're of the same cluster as other Eastern I2c, but seem to be a little closer to Western members of that cluster than other Eastern members (although we need more data).

Actually this comment made me revisit King et al 2008, and it looks like the Cretean spike of I2c extends to the Peloponnese a bit, but not to the rest of Greece at all. I might add a 1-5% color to the Peloponnese citing King et al 2008 if I ever update the maps, although diversity in that area should probably still be assumed to be low. The geographical target was very precise and ended up being 5.3% there.

Bodin
20-09-11, 09:19
Nice work . Where did you get data for east Europe and Anatolia?

Maciamo
20-09-11, 11:33
Thanks for the map, Sparkey. How did you calculate the diversity ? Most studies do not provide STR values, so I really wonder.

Antigone
20-09-11, 18:30
Well they were obviously seafaring, but we're not sure about their source. They're of the same cluster as other Eastern I2c, but seem to be a little closer to Western members of that cluster than other Eastern members (although we need more data).

Actually this comment made me revisit King et al 2008, and it looks like the Cretean spike of I2c extends to the Peloponnese a bit, but not to the rest of Greece at all. I might add a 1-5% color to the Peloponnese citing King et al 2008 if I ever update the maps, although diversity in that area should probably still be assumed to be low. The geographical target was very precise and ended up being 5.3% there.

Thanks Sparkey.

It is actually not that far between Crete and the southern tip of the Peloponnese, with two islands, Antikythera and Kythera, in between the two. Fairly easy sailing from one island to the next on a good day and archaeology has shown trading etc between all 4 locations has been going on for millenia. There are also many people with Cretan ancestry settled throughout the area, so it makes perfect sense that 12C would extend to the mainland and not remain exclusively in Crete.

sparkey
20-09-11, 19:24
Thanks for the map, Sparkey. How did you calculate the diversity ? Most studies do not provide STR values, so I really wonder.

I2c was easy to work with in this regard, as it has three distinct major STR clusters, each with a different modal value for DYS393. So far only cluster "B" (DYS393=14) has been found in the FTDNA Project to be in Asia or Eastern Europe (including Greece), so I extrapolated that knowledge to the studies I saw. Basically, 3 clusters in an area = "high," 2 clusters = "medium," and 1 cluster = "low." Germany and England have all 3 present, Germany apparently in Southwestern Germany and England in a line from East Anglia to Northamptonshire. Scotland has 2, both in Southwestern Scotland (but none in Galloway so far). Italy and Ireland have 2 but not geographically in the same area. Everywhere else has 1 or none.

Mzungu mchagga
20-09-11, 19:29
Great work Sparkey! :good_job:

How long did it take to create such a map?

sparkey
20-09-11, 20:04
Updated to remove the N. Ireland border and add the Peloponnese.


Great work Sparkey! :good_job:

How long did it take to create such a map?

Not long, less than an hour of work if you're already familiar with the data. It's probably longer for Maciamo's maps that have a lot more studies to balance.

sparkey
20-09-11, 20:13
Nice work . Where did you get data for east Europe and Anatolia?

Eastern Europe data came entirely from the FTDNA Project. Eastern European I2c is dominated by Jews, many of whom are diaspora who have taken tests on their own. Anatolian I2c is similarly dominated by Armenians, for whom we have both hobbyist data and some studies as cited.

Bodin
21-09-11, 01:09
Eastern Europe data came entirely from the FTDNA Project. Eastern European I2c is dominated by Jews, many of whom are diaspora who have taken tests on their own. Anatolian I2c is similarly dominated by Armenians, for whom we have both hobbyist data and some studies as cited.
Thanks for answer

sparkey
21-09-11, 20:33
Updated again based on a closer look at Battaglia et al, showing 1-5% range for Greek Macedonians, Bosnian Serbs, Slovenians, and Balkarians, and 1% levels for Greeks (assuming trace in the remaining areas). Assuming that it is all B cluster because that has been the pattern.

Taranis
22-09-11, 01:41
Very nice work, Sparkey. Well done. This is indeed a very unusual pattern not found in any other Haplogroup. I also agree about the interpretation that it may represent an ancient (or at least fairly old) backmigration.

sparkey
22-09-11, 01:52
Very nice work, Sparkey. Well done. This is indeed a very unusual pattern not found in any other Haplogroup. I also agree about the interpretation that it may represent an ancient (or at least fairly old) backmigration.

Nordtvedt places the cluster that extends eastward as being quite a lot younger than I2c as a whole, something like 2000-2500 years old, so I'd call it a backmigration, but not an exceptionally old one. Any ideas? It seems that they were seafaring and got integrated a little into some Balkan cultures (but not Albanians, at least none found so far), Greeks and Cretans especially, Caucasians like Armenians and Georgians, and Eastern European Jews. And the origin (although not necessarily the beginning of the seafaring expansion) seems to be in or around Germany. Who fits all that is beyond me. It's probably the result of multiple migrations of different groups who all had it as a minority clade, and so it doesn't reflect a particular group well. I should also note that we need more diversity data for Greek and Balkan I2c, it may be only apparently low in diversity due to the lack of STR data from those regions in particular.

Taranis
22-09-11, 02:30
Nordtvedt places the cluster that extends eastward as being quite a lot younger than I2c as a whole, something like 2000-2500 years old, so I'd call it a backmigration, but not an exceptionally old one. Any ideas? It seems that they were seafaring and got integrated a little into some Balkan cultures (but not Albanians, at least none found so far), Greeks and Cretans especially, Caucasians like Armenians and Georgians, and Eastern European Jews. And the origin (although not necessarily the beginning of the seafaring expansion) seems to be in or around Germany. Who fits all that is beyond me. It's probably the result of multiple migrations of different groups who all had it as a minority clade, and so it doesn't reflect a particular group well. I should also note that we need more diversity data for Greek and Balkan I2c, it may be only apparently low in diversity due to the lack of STR data from those regions in particular.

This is indeed quite unusual and unexpected, and the approximate date of 2000-2500 years ago is very confusing indeed.

One idea I had for Anatolia would be the Galatians, which would fit in that time frame and also approximate homeland, but they do in NO WAY explain the vast extend this marker apparently has in Anatolia (I would expect only around Central Anatolia in such a scenario), and it is also unlikely that the small numbers of Galatians would have been responsible for this. Likewise, there is no way this could explain the concentrations (and patterns) in the Caucasus and on the Balkans!

I agree that it is probably more likely we may look at multiple migrations here.

sparkey
22-09-11, 02:35
This is indeed quite unusual and unexpected, and the approximate date of 2000-2500 years ago is very confusing indeed.

One idea I had for Anatolia would be the Galatians, which would fit in that time frame and also approximate homeland, but they do in NO WAY explain the vast extend this marker apparently has in Anatolia (I would expect only around Central Anatolia in such a scenario), and it is also unlikely that the small numbers of Galatians would have been responsible for this. Likewise, there is no way this could explain the concentrations (and patterns) in the Caucasus and on the Balkans!

I agree that it is probably more likely we may look at multiple migrations here.

Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

Taranis
22-09-11, 15:11
Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?

Honestly, that makes it even weirder and me more clueless, especially in that timeframe. There is really nothing that matches this. If the marker was older, one might speculate if the marker is somehow tied with the migrations of some of the Sea Peoples (that one would explain at least some of the patterns), but otherwise it's absolutely beyond me, too!

Gosh
22-09-11, 16:54
Hi Sparkey!
would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.

sparkey
22-09-11, 18:41
Hi Sparkey!
would you be so nice to explain criteria how you selected parts settled with Serbs from Bosnia mentioned in Battaglia's work?
I've took a look on the data sheets and couldn't find any geographical definition there.

I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.

Gosh
22-09-11, 22:55
I couldn't find any geographical data, either, so I just referenced a map that specifies ethnic groups by percentage, put "1-5%" in the places where Serbs are, and "trace" elsewhere.

I think that the "trace" field in Southeastern Europe will expand once we get more data from there.

I mentioned a strange spots and that's the reason why I've asked you about that. But, to be honest I suspect a little bit in Battaglia's 12 marker results. Even more because they showed I2* only between Serbs in Bosnia. Strange a bit.

haithabu
23-09-11, 19:33
Would it help your analysis to know that the known Anatolian I2c is dominantly from ethnic Armenians?


It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

5182

There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.

sparkey
23-09-11, 20:02
With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

5182

There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

haithabu
23-09-11, 20:26
One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

"The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

.....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverArmenia/Diaspora/HistoryofDiaspora.htm

haithabu
23-09-11, 21:00
It therefore looks like the I2c presence in the eastern Mediterranean is [edit: may be] specifically a signature of the Armenian diaspora.

[edit: I'm going even further out on a limb here, but the coalescence age of the Armenian/Turkey cluster corresponds well to the advent of the Orontids, who persisted in one dynasty or another as Armenian rulers, kings and satraps for 600 years. I2* may have been introduced to the Armenians by this family who are thought to have been Mede or Persian in origin.] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orontid_Dynasty#Orontids_of_Commagene

zanipolo
24-09-11, 00:01
Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.

BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.

lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas

this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/2010/07/venetian-dna.html

zanipolo
24-09-11, 00:07
One area of concentration in the I2c map which can't easily be accounted for by the presence of Armenians in trading colonies is Macedonia. However there is also this:

"The long-winding military conflict between the Roman and its successor Byzantine Empire and Persia culminated, in 387 AD, with the loss of the Armenian statehood as Armenia was for the first time in its history divided between those two states. The date can be conditionally set as the beginning of the Armenian Diaspora...

.....The Byzantine policy of displacing the indigenous Armenian population was of more consistent nature: for several centuries the Armenians were forced to relocate to the western regions of the Empire, including the Balkan regions of Thrace and Macedonia . The emigration of the Armenian nobility and military elite resulted in their diffusion into the highest ranks of the Byzantine government system, culminating in the establishment of the Macedonian or Armenian imperial dynasty (867-1057). "

http://www.armeniaemb.org/DiscoverArmenia/Diaspora/HistoryofDiaspora.htm

Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.

there where Armenians residing in venice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Lazzaro_degli_Armeni
There was also germans, greeks , Illyrian dalmatians, some croats ( only from Zardar ( Zara)) , Dutch, french, swiss and of course italians ............and slovenes in the friuli alpine lands

haithabu
24-09-11, 00:20
Are you talking about the original Armenian homeland near the taurus mountains ( basically modern turkey and syrian border areas ) to the caucausus area or ?.
I assume you mean that this emigration of Armenian nobility into Thrace and Macedonian was to give the Bulgars a monarcy.

Something like modern french nobility of Savoy to become kings of Italy or bavarian nobility to become kings of greece.


According to the source this emigration began to take place with the partition of the Armenian kingdom in 387 AB, before the Bulgars entered Macedonia. At time the kingdom occupied this area:

5187

I assume that most of the emigrants would have come from the western part which fell to Byzantium.

sparkey
24-09-11, 00:20
You need to also have a map of the Genoese holdings which dominated the black sea area.

A map of the Republic of Genoa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Repubblica_di_Genova.png). It maps more poorly than the Venetian Republic but has a possibly telling holding with Trabzon (Trebisonda).


BTW , in december 2010, the study on venetian DNA was given up due to the fact that it was too cosmoplitan in its 1100 year history, focus by DNA tests is now on the veneto mainland which I suspect will find basically ligurian, gallic and celtic markers.

KN , stated in June 2011 that the only I marker in Venice was the same as the basque and sardinian one. he basically stated this marker was an "anti R1a" marker.
If this is the case then where or how does I2c come into it.

It would have to be as a minority clade, which could have expanded within a subset of the Venetian population that happened to travel around its own Republic, if the theory we're coming to about a Venice-I2c connection is true. I doubt I2c has been anything other than a minority clade anywhere within recent times.


lastly, Byzantine, Genoese and Venetian merchants practised "white" slavery from Azov , from about 600 AD until the early middle ages. This can have an effect on certian markers in certain areas

It's something to keep in mind, but I wouldn't immediately suspect an Azov connection, at least as being the source of I2c. More likely if we find I2c in Azov and its origin is Venetian times, it's from Genoese/Venetian merchants who went there. At least, that's my understanding so far, based principally on STR diversity.


this is the last I found ( although I have not been looking anymore)
http://venice2point0.blogspot.com/2010/07/venetian-dna.html

Thanks. Keep us updated.

haithabu
24-09-11, 00:33
I'm not sure there is a connection between I2c Armenians and the Venetians so much as that they both chose the same real estate (the maritime fringe of the Ottoman Empire) for differing reasons: the Venetians for trade access into the empire and the Armenians first to escape the empire as it expanded and then to supplant the Italians as traders as the Ottomans took control of those enclaves. As Christians who were members of a recognized dhimmi millet within the empire, they could move freely between the two worlds of the Ottomans and Western Europe in a way that Latin Christians and Muslims could not.

[edit: quote from this source: http://www.azg.am/EN/2001052612


History witnesses that Hellenistic Crete Island has for centuries been a hospitable for Armenians place. First mentioning about Armenians in the island dates back to 8-th century. Byzantium’s Nikiporos II Pakos emperor, highly evaluating the contribution of many Armenian soldiers and army commanders in the job of liberating Crete from Arab’s yoke (823-961 AD), allowed many Armenians to stay and live in the island. Already in 970’s the number of Armenians here reached 20,000, and Greek sources give a number of 16,000. After the collapse of Cilicia Armenian kingdom in 1375 AD a new flow of Armenian refugees started to Crete. The existence of villages with Armenian names like Armenis, Armenokhorio, Armenoi witness about it.

Kardu
24-09-11, 03:38
Great job, thanks Sparkey!

"9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me :)

As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

sparkey
24-09-11, 06:34
Great job, thanks Sparkey!

"9% among Georgians per 23andMe" - that's probably just me :)

As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

I've read that a particular Armenian may push back the estimate for TMRCA of the B cluster, but I'm a bit worried that the Phrygians are still a bit old, or at least not from the right area of Europe, considering that the diversity hotspots aren't near Eastern Europe. There's nothing to discount the theory, yet, though, that's just my initial concern.

I think that we're seeing about five components of I2c that each warrant separate analyses:

(1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

(2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

(3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

(4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

(5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.

Kardu
24-09-11, 12:51
Unfortunately very few Georgians were tested so far, 21 to be exact (not counting those mentioned in scientific papers, and still total number does not exceed 200) from which 2 us belong to I2c.
Interestingly enough my and rest of the Armenian-Anatolian (Including the other Georgian) TMRCA lived about 3200 years ago. How could we explain this?..

Bodin
26-09-11, 03:12
It's interesting that Armenian recorded history begins right about the time that Nordtvedt dates the split of their cluster. Another thing is that they began to go into diaspora in the 11th century and became ubiquitous around the Mediterranean as traders, particularly in Italian trading colonies. As the Ottoman Empire expanded and took over those outposts one by one, the Italians were replaced in their trading functions by Jews, Armenians and Greeks.

With that in mind, take a look at the map of territory controlled by the Venetian Republic at its greatest extent:

5182

There is uncanny overlap between it and the Mediterranean portion of the I2c map.

So what I am proposing is this: The ancestor of the Armenian cluster settled among the proto-Armenians around the beginning of their recorded history - perhaps as a trader entering the region via the Black Sea. His descendants became preeminent in Armenian society at some point early on and hence expanded their share in the Armenian haplogroup pool. Some members of their cluster became active in trading during the diaspora and consequently spread the haplogroup around the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in Italian trading colonies.

Armenians are also known to have established trading colonies in Russia and the Ukraine early on (beginning in Lvov in the 13th century), and later in Northern Europe, especially in Amsterdam. This might account for the lower but still measurable presence of their cluster in those areas.
It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia : 1) after battle on Pločnik 1386 in which Serbs beaten Turks . Armenians who were fighting in battle on Turkic side like vassal army , crossed over on Serbian side during battle and they were settled in east Serbia ( there was few thousands fighters ) 2) In biger Turkic cities on Balkans there was always strong Armenian comunity - Niš , Sarajevo , Belgrade , Mostar , Travnik ,... 3) after genocide over Armenians in Asia Minor by Turks in 1920 -ies , some Armenians escaped in Yugoslavia , they center in Serbia ( where most of them settled ) was in Valjevo

haithabu
26-09-11, 18:55
It is realy plausible that most of I2c spreaded over the world by Armenian settling . Conection of I2c with Venice is also realy interesting . If this helps I know for three waves of Armenian settling in Serbia and Bosnia........


Thank you, Bodin. The Balkans I thought were the weakest link in my hypothesis. The question then is whether the y-dna STR data there supports an Armenian descent for the Balkan I2c's.

Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?

A further question to anyone else: is there any record of extensive Armenian settlement in the Peloponnese?

sparkey
26-09-11, 19:12
Sparkey, what is the difference between the European and Asian clusters you refer to and in your opinion do the eastern Med people fall into the former or the latter?

So far we don't have enough data on the European cluster. Probably, the "Z" subcluster on the FTDNA Project is the most interesting, with membership in Germany, Italy, Greece, and Bulgaria, but no Armenians. Unfortunately, we don't have similar STR data for the Balkans in particular. So it seems that Italian and Greek I2c-B tend to be closer to each other than to Armenians, but we need more data to reach further conclusions.

Gosh
27-09-11, 02:37
Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.

sparkey
27-09-11, 03:03
Sparkey, you didn't insert data for Normandy and southern France. They have quite a high percentage of this haplogroup.

Really? Do you have a source I can look at for numbers? I'll update the map again if you can show me.

haithabu
27-09-11, 08:21
I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.

sparkey
27-09-11, 18:30
I notice that a 2005 study of Cyprus shows haplogroup I at 7.7% (clades not given). Given the island's history, I would guess that a fair bit of it is Armenian and therefore I2c.

Was that only taken in South Cyprus or was it a combination of South and North? Either way, I agree, that indicates that I2c in Cyprus is at least trace, although I doubt it's as high as Crete (over 5%). It may be a place where we have both the "Z" I2c-B subcluster and the various Armenian subclusters present. It will probably be appropriate to add a trace or 1-5% range for Cyprus on the next update, although as you may notice, I'm being conservative with where I put I2c on my map.

sparkey
11-11-11, 21:55
(1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

(2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

(3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

(4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

(5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.

I'm bumping this to offer a bit more analysis after some rethinking of it... answering some remaining questions, if you will.

I am more confident about the distribution pattern of (1) now. It definitely seems that its TMRCA is younger than originally thought, probably stuck around the Iron Age. That, combined with the fact that its center of diversity seems to be along the Rhine but with an interestingly old Brythonic British cluster, makes me think that it was spread principally by the Iron Age Celts, with maybe some later Germanicized components getting spread by Alamanni and/or Anglo-Saxons. It has an affinity to I2a2b, which is also thought to have its modern spread resulting mostly from the Iron Age Celts, but I2c-A isn't as old as I2a2b, so it doesn't share the apparent abundance within Urnfield Culture (although it may have been a present minority clade there).

I am also quite sure that (5) is a child of (3) rather than (4), per Paul Givargidze (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/i2/pats). That presents a picture of (5) as being from a Medieval Jewish convert whose descendants populated Eastern Europe, interestingly farther north than than the spread of the rest of (3). The reason for this could be as simple as that convert or his descendants moving north.

MOESAN
12-11-11, 19:19
sorry
I'm just lost
Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.

sparkey
13-11-11, 00:49
sorry
I'm just lost
Could somebody tell me what kind of Y-I is this HG? a new nomenclature for a set of Y-I2B previously I1c ???
excuse my ignorance and thank beforehand for your aswer.

It's the new nomenclature for most of former I2*. It's not very common in most places, although it is the most common Haplogroup I subclade in Crete and Armenia.

It's also mine, hence my interest.

MOESAN
13-11-11, 15:08
thank you - So, not a downstream ex-I2b?

sparkey
14-11-11, 18:50
thank you - So, not a downstream ex-I2b?

Right, old I2b is now "I2a2." I made a thread about this earlier here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26457-quot-I2a-quot-and-quot-I2b-quot-are-about-to-mean-something-different...).

Kardu
17-11-11, 13:02
New Georgian results just came in and a representative of Vachandze noble family is HG I and possibly I2c.
His 12 markers are



14


24


15


10


12


13


11


13


10


14


11



31






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donauri

Knovas
17-11-11, 13:09
I'm sure you are not alone Kardu in regads for your haplogroup in Georgia. We'll see if the new results are finally I2c, perhaps you are descended of a noble too jaja.

Kardu
17-11-11, 13:21
I'm sure you are not alone Kardu in regads for your haplogroup in Georgia. We'll see if the new results are finally I2c, perhaps you are descended of a noble too jaja. Yes, deep clade test results will be available in a few weeks. And yes, I am too of noble descent :):)

Actually so far we have 2 known Georgian I2c and now this one and all 3 of us belong to old nobility.

sparkey
17-11-11, 18:24
Yes, deep clade test results will be available in a few weeks. And yes, I am too of noble descent :):)

Actually so far we have 2 known Georgian I2c and now this one and all 3 of us belong to old nobility.

I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.

Knovas
17-11-11, 19:10
It's really curious that seems to be recurrent. Kardu, if you finally test the 30 Georgians you mentioned time ago (noble descent too if I remember well), would be good to know how many I2c appear ;)

PD: You should marry a beautiful Georgian princess :P

Kardu
18-11-11, 00:28
I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin. With the available data at hand I tend to think of Phrygian/Meskhi origin of the Caucasian I2c. As I've mentioned earlier on this forum Meskhi entry in the Caucasus 2800 years ago is a historical fact and they established themselves in south and central-east Georgia, exactly the are where our 3 families originate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
I've just got a confirmation by Prof. Nortdvedt that our new Georgian looks like a solid I2-14.
According to calculations I stand a bit apart from other Caucasian I2c and our TMRCA is about 3000+ years. Another Georgian clusters apart from Armenians as well. Still have to check the new guy.

Kardu
18-11-11, 00:31
It's really curious that seems to be recurrent. Kardu, if you finally test the 30 Georgians you mentioned time ago (noble descent too if I remember well), would be good to know how many I2c appear ;)

PD: You should marry a beautiful Georgian princess :P

Yes, we've got the first 6 another 24 will follow :)

As, for a princess, DNA test has revealed that my lady has enigmatic origins leading to Belgium/Southern Netherlands. So now I try to solve the puzzle :)

sparkey
18-11-11, 01:03
With the available data at hand I tend to think of Phrygian/Meskhi origin of the Caucasian I2c. As I've mentioned earlier on this forum Meskhi entry in the Caucasus 2800 years ago is a historical fact and they established themselves in south and central-east Georgia, exactly the are where our 3 families originate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
I've just got a confirmation by Prof. Nortdvedt that our new Georgian looks like a solid I2-14.
According to calculations I stand a bit apart from other Caucasian I2c and our TMRCA is about 3000+ years. Another Georgian clusters apart from Armenians as well. Still have to check the new guy.

It's still curious that Southeastern European I2c-B all clusters together, almost certainly with a later TMRCA than the Asian I2c-B... see Paul Givargidze (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/i2/pats).

But I think you may be right about the Meshkis anyway. All we need is...

(1) I2c-B in trace amount in Europe earlier than the Meshkis (some Western European members fit with this well enough, and indicate that the center of diversity of I2c-B is close to its I2c-A and I2c-C brothers, near the Rhine in their cases)
(2) Expansion from Southeastern Europe and later near-total replacement there (the dating of the Asian branches seem to square with this, as well as the history of Southeastern Europe, which has undergone numerous population shifts)
(3) Expansion of the Asian branch and a Southeastern European remnant independently (we already have explanations for why these may have happened)

Is the mystery of I2c unraveling?

Kardu
18-11-11, 01:20
Fully agree with your points, very nicely defined!

I am not very fond of STR-based groupings though. I prefer SNP-based grouping which takes in account STRs like Marko Heinila has done. Here are the same kits according to Heinila 5362

sparkey
18-11-11, 01:30
Fully agree with your points, very nicely defined!

I am not very fond of STR-based groupings though. I prefer SNP-based grouping which takes in account STRs like Marko Heinila has done. Here are the same kits according to Heinila

I didn't think there were any known SNPs downstream of I2c.

Kardu
18-11-11, 02:21
I didn't think there were any known SNPs downstream of I2c.ok, I haven't put it right, should have been vice versa: Heinila's calculations are based on 67 marker haplotypes and he takes in account SNPs as well. :)

haithabu
18-11-11, 20:24
I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.

The three noble Armenian families I can identify in the FTDNA project (Prince Hasan Jalal Dawla and the two Meliks) are in clusters A and D, while the Georgian Donauri is in cluster K. So the I2C Caucasus nobility is well diversified.

Hasan-Jalal traced his descent (possibly by way of Sahl Smbatjan) to an earlier Armenian dynasty (the Eṙanšahiks) which ruled in Gardman up to the 7th century AD. The Eṙanšahiks in turn were supposed to be derived from the very ancient Syuni family, whose origin is semi-mythological in a way similar to the Scandinavian Ynglings. If this is true, it means that the I2c component in Armenian nobility is of very long standing. This in itself may account for the elevated frequency of I2c in the Armenian population at large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_Smbatean

Kardu
19-11-11, 00:23
The three noble Armenian families I can identify in the FTDNA project (Prince Hasan Jalal Dawla and the two Meliks) are in clusters A and D, while the Georgian Donauri is in cluster K. So the I2C Caucasus nobility is well diversified.

Hasan-Jalal traced his descent (possibly by way of Sahl Smbatjan) to an earlier Armenian dynasty (the Eṙanšahiks) which ruled in Gardman up to the 7th century AD. The Eṙanšahiks in turn were supposed to be derived from the very ancient Syuni family, whose origin is semi-mythological in a way similar to the Scandinavian Ynglings. If this is true, it means that the I2c component in Armenian nobility is of very long standing. This in itself may account for the elevated frequency of I2c in the Armenian population at large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hasan-Jalalyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_Smbatean

Thanks for the fascinating insights. According to wiki though: "At the time of the publication of Hewsen's initial article in the journal Revue des Études Arméniennes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revue_des_%C3%89tudes_Arm%C3%A9niennes), the author was unable to trace any survivors of the house but did note that the final two Catholicoi of Albania, Hovhannes XII (1763–1786) and Sargis II (1794–1815), had a dozen brothers altogether, all who left a "numerous progeny by the middle of the nineteenth century." How can we be sure that the person tested really belongs to that famous line?

haithabu
19-11-11, 03:00
Thanks for the fascinating insights. According to wiki though: "At the time of the publication of Hewsen's initial article in the journal Revue des Études Arméniennes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revue_des_%C3%89tudes_Arm%C3%A9niennes), the author was unable to trace any survivors of the house but did note that the final two Catholicoi of Albania, Hovhannes XII (1763–1786) and Sargis II (1794–1815), had a dozen brothers altogether, all who left a "numerous progeny by the middle of the nineteenth century." How can we be sure that the person tested really belongs to that famous line?

There are actually two individuals in the FTDNA I2c project who claim this descent. They have a genetic distance of 3 out of 67 markers, so they are not closely related. We can't be sure that either is actually descended from Jalal-Hasan, but the fact that both independently claim this descent and share a common ancestor within the relevant time frame makes it reasonable to believe that they are.

Kardu
19-11-11, 03:40
There are actually two individuals in the FTDNA I2c project who claim this descent. They have a genetic distance of 3 out of 67 markers, so they are not closely related. We can't be sure that either is actually descended from Jalal-Hasan, but the fact that both independently claim this descent and share a common ancestor within the relevant time frame makes it reasonable to believe that they are. In general it seems quite plausible. It is more or less same or adjacent area. Gardman seems to relate to Gardaban, the tribe from which Donauris come, my ancestral village is also on the territory of Gardaban and Kukhi tribes. We can speculate that Gardman, Gardaban, Kukhi tribes were part of Phrygian /Mushki entry in the Caucasus among which were the I2c folks.

sparkey
22-11-11, 02:21
For fun, here is a brief summary of the consensus that Kardu, haithabu, and I seem to be coming to about the history of I2c (obviously not all of this is certain and this is subject to revision):

The History of I2c

I2c is a subclade of Haplogroup I, the only surviving Y-DNA haplogroup that can be said with high confidence to have been in Europe since the Paleolithic. By around the beginning of the Neolithic in Europe, I2c had bottlenecked into three major branches, all of which did not expand until significantly later, remaining minority clades in populations near the Rhine.

The first to expand was the "C" branch. Although perhaps the least common nowadays, it diversified within Western Europe nearly 4000 years ago, probably around the Middle Rhine, from which it became a minority clade in some tribes, mostly Celtic and maybe some Germanic. It is still a trace haplogroup everywhere it is found.

The "A" branch waited another 1000 years or so, but followed a similar pattern to "C." Having a strong affinity to I2a2b, it was apparently a tiny trace minority clade within Urnfield Culture before having some minor success in expanding with the Iron Age Celts. Minor expansions on the Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland made it perhaps surpass "C" in numbers.

Both "A" and "C" are dwarfed in numbers by "B." Although it expanded late, around the same time as "A," and shares a Western center of diversity, probably not too far from the Rhine, most of the expansion of "B" happened in Eastern Europe and Asia. Some minor gene flow had some "B" carriers end up in Southeastern Europe as a small minority, where some stayed and others, as part of the Phrygian/Mushki migrations, ended up in Anatolia. Those who remained in Southeastern Europe remained a small minority, and maybe even bottlenecked further, before finding some minor success within the Venetian Republic, especially in Crete, and also later with a Jewish family who expanded significantly Northward. Those who moved onto Anatolia became even luckier, as "B" found itself into the local nobility, expanding accordingly and becoming perhaps the most common I subclade in Asia.

Kardu
22-11-11, 02:57
Very nice!!!:)

Kardu
04-06-12, 23:38
Hi Sparkey, do you know anything new about I2c? All other haplogroups are getting some exciting breakthroughs and we seem to have hit a brick-wall.. :)

sparkey
04-06-12, 23:52
Hi Sparkey, do you know anything new about I2c? All other haplogroups are getting some exciting breakthroughs and we seem to have hit a brick-wall.. :)

There was a push to get more SNPs out of I2c-C, but I haven't heard that anything came out of that. Nordtvedt has been shifting his TMRCAs around a bit and it seems that he now thinks that group A is the oldest, rather than group C as he had been suggesting (B seems to always be young no matter what, though). That could mean that groups A and C are quite anciently linked, probably to older Celtic migrations alongside I2a2b, although it's still difficult to narrow down the temporal aspect precisely, and I may be misinterpreting his figures (like I don't know if he includes the DYS393=13 outliers like Vail and Winckers).

Kardu
05-06-12, 22:17
Thanks, good to know.

Yes, considering that our I2c-B ancestors entered Anatolia from Balkans not earlier than 4000 years ago with Phrygians/Galatians/Bythynians we must be the youngest branch..

sparkey
14-08-12, 19:13
Minor update: An SNP was found in a WTY shortly after I posted here last (L1251) in an I2c-C individual. It was soon after established that all of I2c-A and I2c-B are L1251-, but it wasn't until very recently that there were enough I2c-C individuals tested to confirm that L1251 is common to I2c-C.

So the changes to the nomenclature will be:

I2c-A => I2c*-A
I2c-B => I2c*-B
I2c-C => I2c1

Nordtvedt has already adopted the "I2c1" nomenclature, and ISOGG should follow pretty soon now that we're sure about the placement of L1251.

Kardu
15-08-12, 01:16
Good news, thanks Sparkey!

MOESAN
26-08-12, 00:33
the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?

sparkey
27-08-12, 18:28
the distribution and variance of these rare subclades of Y-I2c plus the distribution of other Y-I2 and even Y-I1 put me to suppose a central Europe ancient origin of their ancestors - the Y-I1 separated toward North (Baltic shores?) undergoing a pretty good growing lately and all the other scattered in Europe, only Y-I2a1b knowing a big demic growing in southeastern Europe among these last ones - the others (Y-I2C, Y-I2b, Y-I2a1a being scattered like archaic forms in remote coastal or mountainous regions, from N-W / S-W Europe to Caucasus and Anatolia?

Can you put a timeline on some of these events? Like, there's a Central European origin for the ancestors of what, all of I? Or most subclades? And I1 separated from the rest of I when?

Like, I think it's apparent based on STR variance (and even SNP variance) that the I1 branch split from the I2 branch before the LGM. There's no way it could have done it on the Baltic shores. Rather, we have to extrapolate back very far for it to guess where it split from I2. I think the easiest way to figure out I1 is to see which I2 subclade it is most closely linked to at the time of its initial expansion (it looks to be I2-M223), and then trace the migrations of that one. Well, I2-M223 is part of the I2a-L460 group, which has its center of diversity in France and dates back to a time contemporary with Solutrean culture... so if I had to hazard a guess, I would place I1 as being with I2a in the Franco-Iberian LGM refuge after it split with it... not that close to the Baltic shore. It's just that I1 bottlenecked, and didn't expand significantly, until the descendants of a particular carrier who lived close to the Baltic shore became successful much later.

As for I2c, I agree that it's quite Central European in terms of its initial expansion, although it's curious that its closest brother clade, I2b-ADR, is clearly Adriatic in origin. That could imply a more Southeastern connection (Epigravettian culture? Balkans LGM refuge?) prior to its expansion than I2a and I1. So it ended up being Central European, but perhaps not for the same reason as many I2a subclades.

Kardu
12-11-12, 21:51
We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.

sparkey
12-11-12, 22:34
We've got about 12 new Georgian I2c members. Soon we will be able to publish the haplotypes (it's part of a scientific study but FTDNA is also involved). So it seems now we have the highest numbers in the Caucasus-Anatolia region.

Awesome. It will be interesting to see if they continue the patter of all Georgian I2c haplotypes falling into the West Asian branch of I2c*-B, or if we get some more ancient haplotypes in the mix.

Knovas
12-11-12, 22:49
Yeah, that's an amazing finding Kardu, totally agree with your analysis. By the way, sparkey, ¿which is your branch? Mainly Western European I guess.

Kardu
12-11-12, 23:44
In general they do look like West Asian branch of I2c*-B, but few of them have weird certain STR values, so 'sniping' will be required :)

Knovas
12-11-12, 23:48
Ok I see Kardu, thanks ;)

sparkey
13-11-12, 01:00
Yeah, that's an amazing finding Kardu, totally agree with your analysis. By the way, sparkey, ¿which is your branch? Mainly Western European I guess.

Mine is the "A" branch (DYS393=13), which has minor peaks in the English/Scottish border region and around Switzerland/Southern Germany. It's more geographically limited than the "B" branch. My specific haplotype is concentrated around the Emmental in Switzerland.

Knovas
13-11-12, 01:19
Very interesting, thanks again :)

Gosh
13-11-12, 14:02
It's a pity that we don't have more data for Kurds. A better understanding of haplogroup I between them cane give many interesting answers. They are still some kind of mystery.

Templar
13-11-12, 18:33
It's a pity that we don't have more data for Kurds. A better understanding of haplogroup I between them cane give many interesting answers. They are still some kind of mystery.

But they were Indo-Europeans; as far as we know, they had little to no "I" subclades.

Goga
13-11-12, 18:46
But they were Indo-Europeans; as far as we know, they had little to no "I" subclades.

Were?

Kurds are still hard-core Indo-Europeans who speak their own unique and distinguish Indo-European (Kurdic) language, with many dialects. We have our own unique Indo-European (Median, Iranic) culture and before Semitic religions we had our own Indo-European (Median) religions, Mazdaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism. Even today still some Kurds are practicing their own Indo-European (Median) religion, the Yezidism.

Kurds are mostly J2a & R1a folks. Without hg. I2a Kurds would have much higher percentages of R1a & J2a. Other Indo-Europeans that share the same Y-DNA haplogroup J2a are Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians and folks in the Balkans. There's lots of hg. J2a in East-Europe!

Goga
13-11-12, 19:08
I believe that I2-something in Kurdistan is from the Cimmerians and some Scythians from northern Caucasus, northwest Iranic people. But Kurds are mostly descendants of the ancient Medes (Umman Manda people) that defeated Semitic (Akkadian) tribes in Mesopotamia and even also some other Indo-European tribes like the Hittites and Scythian one.

Although Kurds are also somehow mixed with Semitic people: Jews and Chaldeans

Kardu
13-11-12, 21:25
One way or another this thread is about I2c guys :) And so far not a single I2c among the Kurds

Goga
14-11-12, 16:33
To stay on topic, I believe that y-DNA hg. I2c in West Asia is from the Celtic tribes that settled down in western parts of Anatolia from Greece long time ago.

sparkey
14-11-12, 18:30
Mod note: I just moved the continuation of the discussion about Kurds and Indo-European haplogroups to a new thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?28155-OFFTOPIC-Kurds-as-Indo-Europeans-amp-Indo-European-haplogroups).


To stay on topic, I believe that y-DNA hg. I2c in West Asia is from the Celtic tribes that settled down in western parts of Anatolia from Greece long time ago.

It's possible. I think one of the big remaining questions about the distribution of Asian I2c*-B is its source population. Phrygians? Galatians? Somebody else?

One thing that's appealing about guessing the Galatians is that the I2c*-A and I2c1 distribution back in Europe looks to have a close connection to ancient Celtic populations.

Kardu
14-11-12, 18:55
The thing is that there is no source whatsoever linking Galatians or any other Celts to the Caucasus.

Apart from Phrygian/Mushki only Balkan origin peoples may have been Treri. Trialeti mountain range might have been named after them Trialeti=Land of Triali/Treli in Georgian.

And I don't know if there is any link between Trialeti Culture and Balkans... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 17:56
The frequency map:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8793/frequencyi2c.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/frequencyi2c.png/)

The diversity map:
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2339/diversityi2cj.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/diversityi2cj.png/)

In Greece, Peloponese and ancient Macedonia => Dorians
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Greek_dialects.png

in Ireland => Darini

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Keltoi_Tribes.PNG

in Illyria Daorsi


The Daorsi lived in the valley of the Neretva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neretva) River between 300 BC and 50 BC.
...
The Daorsi used the Greek language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) and alphabet and kept trading relations with the Greeks.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson#cite_note-coe-5).

After the Daorsi were attacked by the Delmatae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delmatae),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson#cite_note-8) they joined Issa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_(island))[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson#cite_note-9) in seeking the protection of the Roman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic) state. The Daorsi abandonedCaravantius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravantius) and fought on the side of the Romans, contributing with their strong navy. After the Illyrian Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars) the Romans gave the Daorsi immunity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daorson

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/IllyricumAD6RomanConditionofTribes.png/718px-IllyricumAD6RomanConditionofTribes.png


in north Italy Taurini

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Gallia_cisalpina.jpg/300px-Gallia_cisalpina.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurini

in Slovenia Taurisci
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

in England - Corieltauvi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml#fifteen) (number 15 on picture) - i think that probably -tauvi was originally -tauri

and Carvetii (number 3 on picture) - i think they are settlement of Corieltauvi with tribal name adapted to welsh


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/images/ironage_native_britain_tribes.gif


this all seems to be related to taurus - bull


so, in Asia minor, perhaps related to Taurus mountains... or to bull worship in Hittite and Hurrian may be link


in the Hurrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians) and Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub) on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_worship

two bulls - Seri and Hurri
Serians and Hurrians...

regarding Armenia

The name Armenia enters English via Latin, from Ancient Greek Ἀρμενία (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%88%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1). The Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language) endonym for the Armenian people and country is hayer and hayk’, respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armen_tribes

hayer - might be Hurrians related?


btw. any data for Dargins/Darginians?
they match tribal name pattern and have 58% haplogroup I according to
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf


in Celtic areas looks like hotspot is in Switzerland, so perhaps Helvetii...

curious is that tribal name of Helvetii is interpreted as "rich in land" and if I am not mistaken same thing is captured for Croat name in De administrando imperio....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetii


so, while lower hotspot in Illyria are Daorsi...
flat spread and upper hotspot may be related to Croats as well...


ancient Hurrian link?

Helvetii and Scordisci - perhaps Hurrians and Serians of Celtic world named after 2 bulls Seri and Hurri...
btw. kingdom of Urartu resembles core of Asian spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Urartu_743-en.svg/800px-Urartu_743-en.svg.png

Kardu
13-04-13, 18:54
High percentage of HG I in Dargins is due to some error.

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 20:14
regarding Carvetii in UK...

after introducing link of I2c to Croats (Hrvati), it makes sense that it is tribal name related to Croat tribal name...

btw. link to map of british tribes (the one with numbers) is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml

there is a remark there that

The Carvetti might have been a smaller tribe within the large kingdom or federation of the Brigantes.

Brigantes tribal name is in my opinion of same origin as Bryges/Phrygians...
so, this part of UK could have been settled via sea from Asia minor....

I find this plausible also because some other people have travelled long way along sea to new lands...

I will remind here, once again, on Celtic Iberia and Scotish myth of origin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath

http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/090401.asp

Most Holy Father, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today. The Britons it first drove out, the Picts it utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, it took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the histories of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all servitude ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken by a single foreigner.

those are Caledonii (number 1 on map) and there are Caladuni in Spain
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg)

next to Caladuni in Spain is tribe Seurbi, and nearby is also a tribe named Helleni

the whole area is painted as partly Celtic, partly pre-Celtic proto-IndoEuropean



The Seurbi were an ancient Celtic tribe of Gallaecia, living in the north of modern Portugal, in the province of Minho, between the rivers Cávado and Lima (or even reaching the river Minho).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seurbi

I was writing about this on thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26103-origin-of-people-of-Scotland-and-northeast-Ireland
there I have proposed that Darini are Greek Dorians..
there I have refered to existence of Doric dialect in mid Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

on Balkan there are also Chelidones that are Illyrian tribe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#Chelidones

my claim is that illyrians were celtic people... I base this on greek myth that says Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers... if 2 of 3 brothers are Celtic, what is third brother?

we know that there was Celtic Iberia...and that Caleduni and Seurbi are in it....
so, why wouldn't Carvetii who live on sea shores be also celtic people that settle UK via sea?
...

these links to possibly Celtic origin of tribes related by names to Serbs and Croats, is relevant regarding my claim that some of I2 people were Celtic and that I2a-Dinaric was probably also Celtic prior to becoming Slavic ....

essentially I claim that modern Serbs origin from Serdi who are Celtic people that became thrachanized and that similar might have been the case with Croats and Carpi...and i explain why R1a proto-Slavs are Venethi complex (Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatia tribes) that moved towards north with spread of Roman empire and took name "slobodni" Venethi of Slo-venethi... remember "free Dacians" here..

..for more info about this see
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28516-Serbs-and-Croats-origin-from-Germanic-Scirii-and-Hirri

adamo
13-04-13, 21:47
No , brigantes was typical English Celtic people's not men from turkey (Asia minor).

adamo
13-04-13, 22:15
Brigantes had no link whatsoever to the Phrygians who where so similar to Lydians (also from Asia Minor) that probably had J2. Brigantes was typical R1b men , not colonizer a to England from Asia MinorMinor

FrankN
20-05-14, 16:45
The Georgian-Armenian nobility story is fascinating. It would imply that I2c was anything but "native hunter gatherers subdued first by early farmers, than by Indo-Europeans". Considering that the Lichtenstein cave, obviously a burial site for the local elite, contained mainly I2a people, the same appears to be true for other I2 clades.

As to the I2c East European Jews, one should consider that cities in the Rhineland (Cologne, Mainz, Worms, Speyer) had quite sizeable Jewish communities in the early middle ages.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCdische_Geschichte_in_K%C3%B6ln#Emigration

Infolge der mittelalterlichen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelalter) Pogrome und der endgültigen Ausweisung (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausweisung) 1424 entschlossen sich wohl auch viele der Kölner Juden zur Auswanderung in osteuropäische Länder wie Polen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polen) und Litauen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litauen), in denen sich in der Folge das Jiddisch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddisch) als Umgangssprache aus dem Hebräischen, Mittelhochdeutschen und Slawischen entwickelte. Die Nachkommen dieser Emigranten kehrten Anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts zurück und wohnten dann hauptsächlich im Bereich der Thieboldsgasse südöstlich des Neumarktes (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neumarkt_(K%C3%B6ln)).
That section is missing in the English version of the article. Translation:
"As a consequence of medieval progroms [1349] and the expulsion in 1424, many Jews from Cologne decided to emigrate to East European countries such as Poland and Lithuania, where subsequently Yiddish emerged as colloquial language from Hebraic, Middle High German and Slavonic. The descendants of these emigrants returned in the early 19th century and settled mainly in the Thieboldsgasse area south-east of the Neumarkt."

This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.

Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa

If the Crusaders played a role in disseminating I2c, this should also have led to increased shares on Cyprus ad Rhodes.

sparkey
20-05-14, 19:23
This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.

I'm not particularly satisfied to guess a total displacement of Jewish I2c-B carriers explaining the lack of I2c in north-central Europe. It's a young enough cluster that it looks more like an expansion than a displacement to me (not that those are mutually exclusive). Unfortunately, I2c PF3881-, which the Jewish cluster is part of, has a pretty bushy tree structure where the Jewish cluster connects, so it's difficult to establish whether it came from Germany, or from Mediterranean Europe, or somewhere else.


I've been leaning toward a broad, ancient Mediterranean affinity of I2c that often ventured to transalpine regions, but rarely very far away. Indeed, I2c-PF3881 is a very good candidate to have originated in the transalpine region, but I wouldn't guess it much farther north than southern Germany. I think that would explain the distribution more cleanly.


Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa

The Armenian cluster is too diverse to come from the Crusades IMHO. It is nearly as diverse as I2c PF3881- as a whole.

FrankN
21-05-14, 07:16
The Armenian cluster is too diverse to come from the Crusades IMHO. It is nearly as diverse as I2c PF3881- as a whole.
I did not mean to say the Crusades were the only, not even the main source of the Armenian cluster, as the Armenian-Georgian nobility apparently dates back to earlier times. But the Crusades could have added to the spread and diversity.

Sile
21-05-14, 10:32
The Georgian-Armenian nobility story is fascinating. It would imply that I2c was anything but "native hunter gatherers subdued first by early farmers, than by Indo-Europeans". Considering that the Lichtenstein cave, obviously a burial site for the local elite, contained mainly I2a people, the same appears to be true for other I2 clades.

As to the I2c East European Jews, one should consider that cities in the Rhineland (Cologne, Mainz, Worms, Speyer) had quite sizeable Jewish communities in the early middle ages.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCdische_Geschichte_in_K%C3%B6ln#Emigration

That section is missing in the English version of the article. Translation:
"As a consequence of medieval progroms [1349] and the expulsion in 1424, many Jews from Cologne decided to emigrate to East European countries such as Poland and Lithuania, where subsequently Yiddish emerged as colloquial language from Hebraic, Middle High German and Slavonic. The descendants of these emigrants returned in the early 19th century and settled mainly in the Thieboldsgasse area south-east of the Neumarkt."

This might possibly explain part of the eastern spread, and the back-migration of Eastern European Jews is a plausible explanation for the high diversity along the Rhine. I would furthermore expect the I2c East European Jews to have been more geographically widespread before the holocaust - the "central European gap" in the distribution is probably a recent phenomenon.

Finally, the crusades (with strong participation from Eastern France and the Rhineland) may have contributed to the Anatolian spread. After the fall of the Crusader States, part of the population (including the Frankish nobility) sought refuge in the nearby Christian states, i.e. Armenia and Georgia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Edessa

If the Crusaders played a role in disseminating I2c, this should also have led to increased shares on Cyprus ad Rhodes.

which I2c subclades do you refer to as being Jewish............I have a relative who is this marker

correct me if I am wrong ..is I2c 12000 years old?

sparkey
21-05-14, 19:21
which I2c subclades do you refer to as being Jewish............I have a relative who is this marker

correct me if I am wrong ..is I2c 12000 years old?

The Jewish cluster is in the PF3881- branch. If I recall correctly, your relative is I2c-PF3381>L1251, so not closely related.

Nordtvedt's current estimate of the I2c TMRCA is about 8000 years, with a clade age (as compared with I2b-L416) of about 12000 years.

Kardu
05-03-15, 12:48
There are some interesting developments for I2c following Big Y results and recent paleo tests. 8000 year old remain from Germany was tested as I2c and curiously he is on younger branch than me. Here is my result on YFull experimental tree based on Big Y test - YF03042
7129

sparkey
05-03-15, 21:34
There are some interesting developments for I2c following Big Y results and recent paleo tests. 8000 year old remain from Germany was tested as I2c and curiously he is on younger branch than me. Here is my result on YFull experimental tree based on Big Y test - YF03042
7129

What ancient German are we talking about? I know of Motala2, which is a nearly 8000 year old sample, but from Sweden. Motala2 was tested as I2c L596+ PF3827+. PF3827+ was recently defined by ISOGG as the defining mutation for your branch of I2c, previously known as the B cluster. So you're more paternally more closely related to a Mesolithic Swede than I am. ISOGG now calls your branch I2c2, and mine I2c1.

I talked a bit about Motala2, and another ancient I2c2 that popped up in a Unetice sample, here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe?p=449593&viewfull=1#post449593

Kardu
05-03-15, 21:53
What ancient German are we talking about? I know of Motala2, which is a nearly 8000 year old sample, but from Sweden. Motala2 was tested as I2c L596+ PF3827+. PF3827+ was recently defined by ISOGG as the defining mutation for your branch of I2c, previously known as the B cluster. So you're more paternally more closely related to a Mesolithic Swede than I am. ISOGG now calls your branch I2c2, and mine I2c1.

I talked a bit about Motala2, and another ancient I2c2 that popped up in a Unetice sample, here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe?p=449593&viewfull=1#post449593

Sorry wrote Germany mechanically, instead of Sweden. These are the results from the new paper where they tested tens of of remains from Europe. Both I2c-s are in younger clade than mine.

Motala2 - Swedish Mesolithic 5898-5531 cal BCE - I0012 (Motala_HG) This is theMotala2 individual whose shotgun data was previously analyzed5. It belonged to haplogroup I2c2 (PF3827:22444389T→A), with the upstream haplogroup I2c (L597:18887888T→A) also supported.

Unetice_EBA - Unetice 2118-1961 cal BCE - I0116 (Unetice_EBA) This individual was assigned to haplogroup I2c2 (PF3827:22444389T
→A) and upstream haplogroups I2c (L597:18887888T→A), I2(M438:16638804A→G) were also supported.

Kardu
15-03-15, 00:38
7141 My terminal SNPs

sparkey
15-03-15, 02:11
7141 My terminal SNPs

Have you tested PF3827? You should be PF3827+.

Kardu
15-03-15, 03:53
Have you tested PF3827? You should be PF3827+.

I was tested for all known SNPs. Yes, I am PF3827+



SNPs (all):
65623



Positive:
1327 (2.02%)



Negative:
51194 (78.01%)



Ambiguous:
148 (0.23%)



No call:
12951 (19.74%)

Kardu
15-03-15, 04:03
According to Ken Nordtvedt after seeing our BAM files:

"You are in the main population with Pogovac (Serbian) Korestky (Polish/Ukrainian ancestry) and Sacchini (Italian) of DYS393=14 L596 You four show 87 novel variants which the other L596 people do not have.


This means that 393=14 clade has its common ancestor with the other L596 probably more than 9000 years ago. So you are indeed of an ancient clade.


You show 33 snps that other three do not have. Those 33 novel variants indicate your common ancestor with those other three and indeed the rest of 393=14 L596 is at least 3500 ybp."

navigio
05-09-16, 20:11
Hi.

Great thread. I'm new here and recently did the geno2 test and had my results transferred over to ftdna. At geno my y assignment was I-L41 but when I transferred my y group said it was under review. I was not able to find much about L41 so I tried looking at the markers and where they show up in the tree. Long story short, my deepest positive match seems to be BY20, which is about 8 levels or so below P215 (I have positives sprinkled throughout that portion of the tree on the way down to BY20, tho there is one branch off with two positives that is not an ancestor of BY20).
Anyway, my question is not about me, but in trying to make sense of this I went to check out the isogg tree and was struck by how different this portion of it is. The BY20 shows up as a part of Ic2~, and many of the matches that define those 8 or so levels are not even in their tree (including the 2 non-ancestor ones mentioned earlier). Furthermore, I was struck by how small the Ic2 portion of their tree is (especially compared to other sections of the I page; obviously I is one of the most common and studied groups).
Can someone explain why this is? Is it a function of simply not enough Ic2 people having been part of existing research? Generally speaking, are the subclade markers at a given level more or less indicative of a common timeframe (because I guess the other explanation could be that ic2 is just more recent, and thus less broadly existent).
I'm not even sure if I'm ic2 or not, though I expect all my matches being here imply that I am. In the isogg tree, the deepest common marker seems to be S6687, though I did not test positive for that directly, rather BY443 is shown as a descendent of S6687 on ftdna's tree and I tested positive for that (BY443 doesn't even show up on isogg's tree, so that could be meaningless). Anyway, assuming I'm reading these correctly and assuming both these trees gave some kind of validity, it seems I'd be something like I2c1a2 (as implied by S6687).
Lastly, are there any other good sources of info about this i2c branch? I've been looking around and this thread is all I could find so far.
Thanks and apologies if this is too much about me. My goal is to understand the trees tho, so it seemed relevant. :-)

LeBrok
06-09-16, 01:50
Hi.

Great thread. I'm new here and recently did the geno2 test and had my results transferred over to ftdna. At geno my y assignment was I-L41 but when I transferred my y group said it was under review. I was not able to find much about L41 so I tried looking at the markers and where they show up in the tree. Long story short, my deepest positive match seems to be BY20, which is about 8 levels or so below P215 (I have positives sprinkled throughout that portion of the tree on the way down to BY20, tho there is one branch off with two positives that is not an ancestor of BY20).
Anyway, my question is not about me, but in trying to make sense of this I went to check out the isogg tree and was struck by how different this portion of it is. The BY20 shows up as a part of Ic2~, and many of the matches that define those 8 or so levels are not even in their tree (including the 2 non-ancestor ones mentioned earlier). Furthermore, I was struck by how small the Ic2 portion of their tree is (especially compared to other sections of the I page; obviously I is one of the most common and studied groups).
Can someone explain why this is? Is it a function of simply not enough Ic2 people having been part of existing research? Generally speaking, are the subclade markers at a given level more or less indicative of a common timeframe (because I guess the other explanation could be that ic2 is just more recent, and thus less broadly existent).
I'm not even sure if I'm ic2 or not, though I expect all my matches being here imply that I am. In the isogg tree, the deepest common marker seems to be S6687, though I did not test positive for that directly, rather BY443 is shown as a descendent of S6687 on ftdna's tree and I tested positive for that (BY443 doesn't even show up on isogg's tree, so that could be meaningless). Anyway, assuming I'm reading these correctly and assuming both these trees gave some kind of validity, it seems I'd be something like I2c1a2 (as implied by S6687).
Lastly, are there any other good sources of info about this i2c branch? I've been looking around and this thread is all I could find so far.
Thanks and apologies if this is too much about me. My goal is to understand the trees tho, so it seemed relevant. :-)
Send PM to sparkey (first post), he should be able to tell you more. Welcome to Eupedia navigio.

sparkey
06-09-16, 17:19
Anyway, my question is not about me, but in trying to make sense of this I went to check out the isogg tree and was struck by how different this portion of it is. The BY20 shows up as a part of Ic2~, and many of the matches that define those 8 or so levels are not even in their tree (including the 2 non-ancestor ones mentioned earlier). Furthermore, I was struck by how small the Ic2 portion of their tree is (especially compared to other sections of the I page; obviously I is one of the most common and studied groups).
Can someone explain why this is? Is it a function of simply not enough Ic2 people having been part of existing research? Generally speaking, are the subclade markers at a given level more or less indicative of a common timeframe (because I guess the other explanation could be that ic2 is just more recent, and thus less broadly existent).


The lack of defined I2c subclades doesn't have a lot to do with timeframe, although that does play a role. You're on the right track that it has more to do with the fact that relatively few people who have tested carry I2c, and so there's been less work done on defining its tree. And, honestly, I2c has gotten pretty good coverage lately, considering that it had zero SNPs of its own for a while. It's doing better than entire haplogroups like P.

Another good site that does something similar to ISOGG is YFull (https://yfull.com/tree/I2/), and they also provide estimated ages to help put the timeframe into perspective.



I'm not even sure if I'm ic2 or not, though I expect all my matches being here imply that I am. In the isogg tree, the deepest common marker seems to be S6687, though I did not test positive for that directly, rather BY443 is shown as a descendent of S6687 on ftdna's tree and I tested positive for that (BY443 doesn't even show up on isogg's tree, so that could be meaningless). Anyway, assuming I'm reading these correctly and assuming both these trees gave some kind of validity, it seems I'd be something like I2c1a2 (as implied by S6687).


I think you're placing yourself correctly, although I don't think that either S6687 or BY443 place you very precisely in the I2c tree. IIRC they imply that you're on the older, more European branch, as opposed to the younger branch with more spillover into Asia. Have you done a FTDNA STR test? If so, try joining the I2b/I2c Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i-2nosubclade-m170p215/).


Lastly, are there any other good sources of info about this i2c branch? I've been looking around and this thread is all I could find so far.

The aforementioned I2b/I2c Project, and Bob May's site (linked from there) has some research. Not a lot of it is speculative about its history and relationship to cultures, though.

navigio
06-09-16, 20:56
Thanks sparkey.

Thanks for the yfull link. It's cool to be able to see the presumed age of these subclades. Though interesting how different it is from isogg. It's also interesting that ft's tree is so much deeper. Most comments I've seen have implied ft is usually behind the times, and given this section of the tree hadn't really existed for very long at isogg I would have expected ft's instead to be empty. :-) do you think ft just builds these out as they encounter people with new snps?

Anyway, it looks like yfull's I-6635 is isogg's I2c1, and I have a few of those markers. But below that it's inconclusive.
It doesn't look like I was tested for L1251 and I can't find anything else that matches under it on the yfull tree. I also wasn't able to find anything in isogg's under there except that 6687, but that was based on ft's likely dubious tree and it merely being an ancestor of 443.

I haven't yet done any STRs because I wanted to try and figure out my haplogroup first in case that might impact what further testing I might do. Since ft couldn't figure it out, I thought I'd try myself. :-) but obviously I'm brand new at this.

That group page looks great tho. I'll do more reading there. Thanks again for your response!

bicicleur
06-09-16, 21:32
In view of the study about Ice Age Europe http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/FuQ_nature17993.pdf
and the spread of Gravettian into Anatolia during LGM http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf
I'd guess I2 and the early I2a/b/c branches developped after 21.6 ka in the area of the Karain/Belbidi/Belbasi caves west of Antalya together with a minority of C1a2.

I2Z2647/CTS2257/PF3704 * Z2652/CTS4568/PF3733 * Z2662/PF3798+61 SNPsformed 27500 ybp, TMRCA 21600 ybp

From there they returned to Europe 14 ka when forests started to regrow as the 'Villabruna people'

http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/hires/2016/youngerdryas.png
geometric microliths were invented in India 35 ka
20 ka they were in the southern Levant Kebaran culture
Villabruna people brougth the technology to Europe
with this technology the Villabruna people replaced all I* people in Europe (both Magdalenian and Eprigravettian) except a few I1

7980

which subclades of I2a/b/c developped where depended on subsequent founder effects and later migrations

IronSide
30-10-16, 21:38
Hello everyone

in the spirit of keeping this thread alive ... I would like to post this riddle ...

Considering where I come from ... How in seven hells did I get this haplogroup ??

I really feel alone in this corner of the world

sparkey
31-10-16, 07:51
Hello everyone

in the spirit of keeping this thread alive ... I would like to post this riddle ...

Considering where I come from ... How in seven hells did I get this haplogroup ??

I really feel alone in this corner of the world

It's pretty common among ethnicities from the Caucasus and Anatolia, although I'm not sure I've seen it in an Arabian before. I'd assume it was drift somehow from the places where it's more common in Asia, fairly recently in genetic terms (like last 1000 years or so).

IronSide
31-10-16, 10:24
My theory involves the janissaries of the ottoman empire .. christian boys were taken from their families and raised as an elite slave army for the sultan. it must have happened during the Ottoman-Saudi war of 1811, my tribe got involved and were soundly defeated. To prevent another revolt the ottomans stationed for 20 years before leaving again.

I was expecting something common in this land like j1-l222 or j1-z640. however I do like the result, especially the nobility link.
I always felt elite for some reason ;)

reading this thread it seems you all came to the conclusion that the mushki and phrygian were responsible for its existence in the Caucasus, a TMRCA for i2c2 of about 3500 ybp would fit that narrative. but from where did the mushkis come from ?
we have four germans , a scot and an english, are they armenian merchants from venice or genoa or are they possibly the leftovers from the mushki or phrygian migration ?

another question, what haplogroups do you think were present among the mushki or phrygians ? I dont think i2c2 came alone in that adventure.

sparkey
04-11-16, 02:19
One thing that's counter-intuitive about what we know about I2c2 currently is that we have a better idea of its prehistoric location than about how it spread within a historical timeframe. That's thanks to its appearance in ancient samples, as I discussed here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page5?p=449593&viewfull=1#post449593), and its almost absurd modern distribution pattern.

I think that the Mushkis/Phrygians are a reasonable guess for how it ended up in Asia. I've also put forward the Galatians as a possibility. We don't really know.

Similarly, the Janissaries are a possibility for how an Arabian lineage might have I2c2, but I have to wonder, do you have any additional supporting evidence? 1811 is pretty recent. I don't know about how easy it is to do Arabian genealogy, but for Americans with colonial ancestry like me, we can often take our family lineages even farther back than 1811.

IronSide
04-11-16, 12:31
1811 is actually being generous, I can trace my genealogy to my great great great grandfather, we don't know who his father was.
assigning the generous amount of 30 years to a generation (at that time they married at 15) would lead you to 1840 ? I reasoned that the war of 1811 was close coupled with the fact that I have a foreign haplogroup whose distribution is within the territory of the enemy. I raise my palms in surrender, I have no further evidence.

Except a legend that says we Intermarried with turks ..... but that's not legendary

The Phrygians and most of the sea people that went to Anatolia probably carried R1b-Z2103 in great numbers, right ? suppose that I2c2 is mainly associated to this branch of R1b.

We know from Herodotus that the Phrygians initially dwelt in the southern Balkans under the name of Brygs, but where were they before that ?


I will propose that they were somewhere in Germany, close to the Rhine. these facts support my idea :


1- thats where we find I2c2 german members and in that same area we find some R1b-Z2103 members along with several other R1b branches such as R1b-DF27 , R1b-U152 , and R1b-U106.
2- Linguist Eric Hamp suggests that the Phrygian language was related to Italo-Celtic in a hypothetical "Northwest Indo-European" group.
3- this area can be considered the base from which R1b-U152 migrated to Italy , R1b-DF27 to southern france and spain , and R1b-U106 to the Netherlands and Scandinavia, and I say R1b-Z2103 to the Balkans and Anatolia with whom we associate I2c2.

that means the pre-Phrygians moved east and south to Anatolia in the same manner the Galatians do later. I would provide sources but I cant because of low post count.


feel free to criticize, with criticism we refine our theories and get closer to the truth.

IronSide
24-01-17, 14:11
Well then ill criticise myself, the linguistic argument is weak and the "base" that i'm probably talking about is the Urnfield Culture ?? some people have associated this culture with the sea people but that's all conjecture.

I2c2 in Armenia must have arrived with the migration of the Armenians themselves who probably belonged to R1b-Z2103 before mixing with the indigenous Urartian population, an early noble clan could have belonged to I2c2 thus explaining the apparently old nobility connection and its unusual elevated frequency.

And so I assume that I2c2 existed in prehistoric cultures of the Danubian basin before the indo-european invasions and assimilation of previous lineages, R1b-L51 could have assimilated some I2c2 from the Pannonian plain before establishing Unetice Culture in central Europe, and so we find I2c2 in Unetice culture samples, the Celts from succeeding cultures could have distributed it in the British isles and France.

Those who remained in The Danube valley with R1b-Z2103 would later migrate with the Armenians and perhaps the Dorians, who also settled Crete and gave their dialect to the island. The Greeks would then distribute it further in their colonies (I2c is found in Calabria in south Italy, in Spain, and Abkhazia in north west Caucasus).

The eastern European Jews could have migrated from the Caucasus since their group also includes Georgians and Azerbaijanis.

One possible weakness to this beautiful story is the fact that the danube basin or the balkans in general is low in I2c diversity, which is higher in southern Germany possibly in areas of Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, However no known migration from these cultures to the Caucasus is documented.

IronSide
03-02-17, 17:30
Could I2c2 in Europe be the result of Alan migrations ?

8446

compare it with the project map https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=ymap
consider also the Spanish results not showing on the map.

Upon the Hunnic defeat of the Goths on the Pontic Steppe around 375 AD, many of the Alans migrated westwards along with various Germanic tribes.

If the Alans settled the area that would later become Normandy, then it wouldnt be so strange to find I2c2 in England and Scotland. These north Caucasian people would also distribute R1a-Z93 in Spain,Tunis, Sicily and England(with the Normans).

sparkey
03-02-17, 18:21
Since we know for a fact that I2c2 was in Mesolithic Europe, I wouldn't guess all modern European I2c2 to be a backmigration. Some, maybe, although the SNP tree of I2c2 is still messy, so it's difficult to say which. One thing that you could probably use to support the backmigration theory is that the oldest known split in the I2c2 tree currently is the SNP BY181, which has Armenian, Georgian, and Turkish representation on both sides of it, and the modern TMRCA of I2c2 is only about 4000 YBP. (The more thoroughly European I2c1, by contrast, has a TMRCA closer to 9000 YBP.)

IronSide
11-03-17, 13:20
Attempted mapping of I2c1 and I2c2 to Mesolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze age cultures:

I2c1 : Tardenoisian --> LBK --> Bell Beaker --> Unetice --> Tumulus --> Urnfield --> Hallstatt --> La Tene; I2c1 spread further with the alpine Celts (R1b-U152).

I2c2 : Kongemose --> Ertebølle --> Funnelbeaker --> Corded Ware --> Catacomb --> Trialeti

I2c2 is mainly found in Armenians, every deep subclade(BY181+ and BY181-) of I2c2 includes Armenians and they score the highest national level if I2c2(4%), in this scenario it is then associated with R1b-L584(60% of R1b in Armenia) and hypothetically, the Trialeti culture. a TMRCA of 4000 years dates to the start of Trialeti.

I2c2 in Georgians must have an Indo-European origin, in the same sense R1b-L584 in Georgians has. In Europe, I2c2 matches the territory of the Alan migrations, who must have carried it from Armenia during their raid in the first century ("So the Alans, being still more provoked by this sight, laid waste the country, and drove a great multitude of the men, and a great quantity of the other prey they had gotten out of both kingdoms, along with them, and then retreated back to their own country.")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans#Early_Alans
R1b-L584 in Europe has a similar distribution.

The above scenario explains how I2c2 was found in mesolithic Sweden, and it's modern distribution in the Caucasus, a separate I2c2 lineage (?) is found in Unetice, but given how Caucasians fall under all subclades, I hypothesise that individual wasn't the ancestor of modesrn descendants, and that his line is extinct.

Catacomb culture is theorised to be the ancestor of Armenian, Greek, and Albanian languages. The origin of the Catacomb culture is disputed. Jan Lichardus enumerates three possibilities: a local development departing from the previous Yamna Culture only, a migration from Central Europe, or an oriental origin. If our model is correct, the answer is central Europe.

MOESAN
11-03-17, 15:42
Could I2c2 in Europe be the result of Alan migrations ?

8446

compare it with the project map https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=ymap
consider also the Spanish results not showing on the map.

Upon the Hunnic defeat of the Goths on the Pontic Steppe around 375 AD, many of the Alans migrated westwards along with various Germanic tribes.

If the Alans settled the area that would later become Normandy, then it wouldnt be so strange to find I2c2 in England and Scotland. These north Caucasian people would also distribute R1a-Z93 in Spain,Tunis, Sicily and England(with the Normans).

I'm not sure Alani settled Normandy ("settled" is a strong word, they rather instable mercenaries pops) nor they stayed there sometime, not more than in Brittany, spite what is said (people confused old Aremorica with today Britain, but Aremorica was between Loire mouth and River Somme bay); in Gaul, they stayed long enough around Orléans/Loire river, and some went up until North France -
Tephales, Alani, Sarmatians are confused sometimes; I red Sarmatians were in the Roman Army of Britain: could they have picked Y-I2c ont heir road and sent it to Britain? a question...

IronSide
17-06-17, 18:55
Ahhhh this old place, the I2c thread that no one seems to care about anymore, well except me of course.

Before I start I want to distance myself from the old junk that I was posting above, that was before I evolved into a higher being.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

I want to discuss Maciamo's new Migration maps, in this one he associated I2c2 with Maykop and Kura-Araxes cultures, in both as a less likely or minor subclade.

This is IMO false based on the following arguments :

1-The TMRCA of I2c2 is between 4300 <--> 3300 YBP (2300 <--> 1300 BC), in the case of Kura-Araxes, this timeframe should have been older, all other haplogroups of the south Caucasus region (everyone in the middle east really) are older, and experiencing rates of growth and new subclades that precede this time entirely. (cf. J2a, J1, G2a, L). If I2c2 arrived to Anatolia in 6000 bc as in the Barcin site, then it should have remained there and expanded with other haplogroups, C1a2 was also found in Barcin, why hasn't C1a2 expanded with Kura-Araxes ? they probably went back to Europe (we see them later in Hungary), and whatever remained in Anatolia were few and their lines died out. Besides, what was confirmed was I2c, not I2c2.

2- The ethnic distribution of I2c2 deep subclades, all of them except one (I2c2a1e1) include Armenians, and it actually scores the highest frequency in that ethnic group (5%), in Azerbaijan, it only occurs among Armenians that used to live there, based on the Azerbaijan and I2c2 ftdna projects, in Georgia it is higher in eastern Georgia (historic Kakheti) than west (historic Colchis) compare this pattern with the R1b distribution in the same country.

if I2c2 expanded with Kura-Araxes then we should have observed it in other ethnic groups in greater frequency, the Jewish members share their subclade with people from Spain, Mexico, and Romania, and most likely emanate from a Latin origin, but also Armenians and other Caucasians, a migration during Roman times is likely, since the region was a roman province at one time.

I2c2 was found in Unetice culture, and that was the reason Maciamo thought it should have been in Maykop, I don't know if there is evidence for such movement, but it was more likely to have been native to the region, like the other I2 samples collected in the same culture.

Then how did I2c2 reach the Cuacasus ? its age and distribution in Armenians suggests that it arrived there with R1b-L584, its age coincides with Trialeti culture, which introduced Kurgans and horse sacrifices in the area.

useful links :
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Georgia?iframe=yresults
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#5/46.073/11.777
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34041-Bronze-age-Trialeti-Culture-in-Transcaucasia
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y16419/

IronSide
09-09-17, 17:11
I argued in a previous post (here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page12?p=513790&viewfull=1#post513790)) that the majority of I2c2 in Greece is not of medieval Armenian origin, then asked the question of how it got there given what we know about its TMRCA, in two posts (here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page24?p=518111&viewfull=1#post518111)) and (here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page24?p=518142&viewfull=1#post518142)) I gave a possible answer to that question as a minor element within a larger migration consisting of R1b-Z2103 and E-V13.

Yesterday I found this paper Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076748#pone.0076748.s015), they collected autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosome data from various ethnic groups in Afghanistan, two individuals from Balkh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkh) were I2c2, Balkh was also known as Bactra, the capital of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom), E-V13, J2-M67, and R1b-Z2103, were also found in individuals from Balkh.

This, however, is not conclusive of how these haplogroups migrated to the region, but it is a possibility.

LerinCovek
28-11-17, 17:03
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).

My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.

My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.

Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?

IronSide
28-11-17, 18:49
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).
My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.
My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.
Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?

Based on the current distribution of the two subclades I2c1 and I2c2 you fall in the territory of the latter, so I'd guess you are I2c2.

I2c2 is found in Greece, its relatively high in Crete 9%, but also Thessaly and the Peloponnese, a small sample from Macedonia was reported as 3.5%. so its natural that you have it.

How it got to Greece and the Balkans is a mystery, the subclade is young, dated to 1800 BC, not Neolithic nor early Bronze Age, its high frequency in Crete made me think it could related to the Minoans but its too young, besides Thessaly and the Peloponnese are not connected to the Minoans.

the other major lineage that appears in the same time is E-V13, dated to 2000 BC, the Mycenaeans by all means should have been primarily of this lineage, maybe I2c2 was a minor element in their movement ?

Its also present in Armenia, Georgia, and Turkey. at least your case is natural but what about me :grin: how in seven hells did this lineage reach south Arabia ? maybe from Palestine, two individuals from an old study are I2c2, by the whole sample it should be 0.5% in Palestine, its also present in some Jews, so .. who knows.

I've made a (hopefully useful) post here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26803-I2c-frequency-and-diversity-maps/page5?p=518855&viewfull=1#post518855
and this one https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page19?p=524026#post524026

eastara
09-12-17, 15:24
Ok, I'm just joining this thread. I recently had a genetics test with LivingDNA and found out my YDNA was I2C (L596).

My entire family (both maternal and paternal lines) going back several generations actually comes from the region between Florina, Greece and Bitola, Macedonia.

My paternal line which we can trace back to my Great Great Great Great Grandfather (7 generations) was born circa 1800-1810. He was a farmer, and our surname is derived from his first name. I believe he was ethnically Macedonian-Slavic (or Western Bulgarian or Slavophone Greek - take your pick), but the village was under the Patriarch of Constantinople (effectively Greek Orthodox Churches). So I guess the region was part way through a Hellenisation process at the time. The village now falls under the territory of Greece, as of 1913.

Does anyone have any theories of the origin/likely migration path and the population percentages of I2C (L596) around this region?

It is interesting if you fall to the "Balkan"cluster of I2c2. It has a distinctive haplotype different than those from Caucasus and Anatolia. For now it is found among Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians and Kosovars, comparatively tight geographical region.
Based on a person from Bulgaria, who took the Big Y test at FamilyTreeDNA, it is assigned its own branch I2c2 - L596->BY4177.
I would encourage you to take the 37 YSTR test at FamilyTreeDNA, just now there is a sale, to see if you fall into that subbranch.

GeneralDede
23-05-18, 03:25
Hello guys!

I just took a y-37 from Family Tree DNA and it shows that I'm I2c2 - Y16419 in Nevgen(possibility is %100), based on my father is from Caucasus(Meskhetian Turk), what would you say?

Flavius
08-06-18, 00:44
hey had the same from nevgen. then took livingdna test which confirmed i2c2-L596, so for me nevgen was correct


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Flavius
08-06-18, 17:57
Hi, I think it is nothing surprising and possibly supporting the pro-Georgian theory on the origin of Meshketian Turkks (below).

Re: Nevgen, I too only had STRs first and nevgen predicted i2c2. I then took livingDNA test (SNPs) and it returned I2c2-L596.
So for me the prediction was correct. I think in your case it also makes sense, considering that we know about relatively high frequencies of i2c2 in Georgians and Armenians.

Wikipedia - Meshketian Turks
Origins and terms[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meskhetian_Turks&action=edit&section=1)]


The origin of the Meskhetian is still unexplored and highly controversial. But now it seems to emerge two main directions:


The pro-Turkish direction: The Meskhetians were ethnic Turks, descending from Ottoman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) settlers, in which some Georgian were ethnic parts.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetian_Turks#cite_note-15)
The pro-Georgian direction: Georgian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)) historiography has traditionally argued that the Meskhetian Turks, who speak the Kars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars) dialect of the Turkish language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) and belong to the Hanafi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi) school of Sunni Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam), are simply Turkified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkified)Georgians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_people) converted to Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) in the period between the sixteenth century and 1829 when the region of Samtskhe-Javakheti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samtskhe-Javakheti) (Historical Meskheti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskheti)) was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire).[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetian_Turks#cite_note-Khazanov_1995_loc=195-16)

IronSide
09-06-18, 02:40
I2c2 probably comes from Unetice culture to the Caucasus in the Middle Bronze Age.

GeneralDede
30-06-18, 00:18
Hi, I think it is nothing surprising and possibly supporting the pro-Georgian theory on the origin of Meshketian Turkks (below).

Re: Nevgen, I too only had STRs first and nevgen predicted i2c2. I then took livingDNA test (SNPs) and it returned I2c2-L596.
So for me the prediction was correct. I think in your case it also makes sense, considering that we know about relatively high frequencies of i2c2 in Georgians and Armenians.

Wikipedia - Meshketian Turks
Origins and terms


The origin of the Meskhetian is still unexplored and highly controversial. But now it seems to emerge two main directions:


The pro-Turkish direction: The Meskhetians were ethnic Turks, descending from Ottoman settlers, in which some Georgian were ethnic parts.
The pro-Georgian direction: Georgian historiography has traditionally argued that the Meskhetian Turks, who speak the Kars dialect of the Turkish language and belong to the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, are simply Turkified Georgians converted to Islam in the period between the sixteenth century and 1829 when the region of Samtskhe-Javakheti (Historical Meskheti) was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire.



Well, the interesting thing is, Armenian project owner Mher himself told me that, I stand far away from I2c2 Armenians in project. I also don't seem similar to Georgian DNA Project members. I have 0 matches in both 12-25-37, so I doubt my subgroup is same as our Transcaucasian neighbors.

BTW my STRs are:

14 24 17 11 12-13 11 13 11 13 11 29 18 8-8 12 11 24 15 19 32 11-15-15-16 11 10 19-21 15 13 17 16 34-38 12 10