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Keegah
21-09-11, 01:54
Hello. My father and I are trying to learn more about our ancestry and genealogy, and have, at last, started to make some discoveries. Via DNA testing we've found that, despite our name being - according to what I've read from several sources on the internet - being of Old English origin, our DNA does not match up with any families sharing our surname in England or Scotland. It does however, match up with several families in Ireland. That, along with the fact that the earliest ancestor we've found was born in Ireland in the early 1700s, seems to suggest an Irish origin. We have found one Gaelic surname that might represent a pre-Anglicization of our current name, but we haven't been able to verify if it is indeed connected to us as of yet.

So right now, we're focused on trying to discover any other evidence that would give us some leads on our original place of origin. At the moment we're leaning towards Ireland for the reasons described above. Here's the issue. I've recently discovered that I'm I2a2b-Isles D1. From what I've read, the vast majority of the Irish are R1b. Now, obviously I understand that I2a2b-Isles is found almost exclusively in the British Isles, Ireland included. Says so right there in the tag. However, I was and am under the impression that it's centered in Great Britain, particularly Scotland. Furthermore, the Gaelic surname that we have reason to believe was our pre-Anglicization surname, is derived from Western Ireland... as I understand it, the region home to the most "originally" Irish, and as such, almost entirely R1b. Not only that, but if I2a2b-Isles is derived from SE European migrants... why would an I2a2b-Isles family have a Gaelic surname? There're just a lot of questions here on our end.

I guess my first question(s) would be, as an I2a2b-Isles D1, does there exist a reasonable basis for my family originating in Ireland? If so, how far back would that history likely go? Is there any way of knowing? Would we be able to accurately call ourselves Gaelic?

Thank you.

Dubhthach
21-09-11, 09:37
What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)

Dorianfinder
21-09-11, 11:54
I found the following comment informative.


Nordtvedt has dated I2a2b-Isles squarely in the Neolithic. However, there are those such as Tim Owen [see the Ingenta blog, 'Genes of the Cruthin' 2010, by Ian Adamson and Tim Owen] who have argued for a Mesolithic dating and an entry to Britain via Doggerland and possible links to the narrowblade culture.

Nordtvedt sees I2a2b-Isles as hitting the British shores around 6,000 years ago. There were other 'early I clades' too such as [the earliest] the Iberia-founded M26 I2a1, I2* and I2b1a-English.

According to Nordtvedt, I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany. Perhaps it got there via LBK bands. From northern Germany, where the snp L161 was 'born', I2a2b-Isles was probably carried to Britain and Ireland via successive waves of people- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. Owen has conjectured that the Anglo-Saxons account for at least some of the I2a2b distribution in England and lowland Scotland. Apparently, Bryan Sykes is in agreement. One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a1 in the historical period.

There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b-Isles- A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D as well as the oldest B subclade represented on the continent. Germany has most members.

The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland. Here, Tim Owen has conjectured, there may be a link to the Cruthin- allegedly Ireland's earliest post-LGM inhabitants. Owen draws attention to a hotspot for subclades C and D around Rathcroghan in County Roscommon, which was once a Cruthin satellite settlement [see 'Genes of the Cruthin'], the bulk of Cruthin settlement being in Ulster.

In Ireland, the subclades appear to be concentrated in the western half of the island, in what are argubly 'refuge' areas. The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one.

More research needs to be conducted on I2a2b. It is clearly north-west European and absent in eastern Europe. The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago. Eventually, I hope, the databases will enlarge so that we are able to say more about this fascinating little clade.

Keegah
21-09-11, 14:35
What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)

O'Toghda, anglicized to Todd. In the Brenach area of Connacht.

Keegah
21-09-11, 14:42
Sorry, actually from Bredach.

Keegah
23-09-11, 22:01
Small update... Just found that we have a near exact match to a Gibbins family from County Mayor. No way of telling when the divergence occurred though.

mul
24-09-11, 23:22
Hi Keegah
The Gibbins match has just done 25 markers , you are an exact match at this level which is good but a lot of the markers can change in the next batch of markers .They do not give Ireland as a home country ? . If you can contact him ask him to upgrade to see how close your match holds up.
You are an odd ball Todd in that you and your cousin are the only two in the Todd project that are I2a Isles, and 1 is Dinaric .
Most other projects are similar, with a lot of R1b and a scattering of I , with a few I members that have a little variance of markers .
I cannot find any reference to O'Toghda = Todd .

A quote from Ken
13,500 b.p. The two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles separate.
6,000 b.p. Two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2b-Isles-B(&A) and to I2a2b-Isles-C(&D)
5,600 b.p. TMRCA for 17 Continental members of Clade B
4.800 b.p. TMRCA for 34 Isles members of Clade B
3,900 b.p. TMRCA of Clade C
2,500 b.p. TMRCA of Clade D
1,500 b.p. TMRCA of clade A
Going on this date for Isles D of 2500 yrs it is quiet possible that your family , before names were in use ,were in Ireland went to Britian and then over time back to Ireland again .
Is Gibbons from Mayo in Ireland ?

Keegah
25-09-11, 17:36
Thank you for replying. Gibbins with an I was from Mayo in Ireland. I type most of this on my phone as I don't have an internet connection available at my residence. Looks like spellcheck modified it and I didn't pick it up. Anyway. We've only found O'Toghda anglicized to Todd in one
book. Everywhere else it Tuffy. Evidently I can't post links, but if you Google "Todd O'Toghda", it should be the first result you find. Here's the pertinent information.

" TODD.* Of Ireland. Arms ; AT. threefoxes' heads grouped gu. a border vert. O'ToGHDA (" togadh :" Irish, chosen, called), anglicised Todd, was chief of Bredach; a territory situated between LoughFoyleinDerry, andLoughSwilly,inDonegal,and which has given its nameto the river " Bredach," which falls into Lough Foyle."

The main thing is, we keep tracking people back to the area described in that quote. The earliest ancestor we've found so far, for example, was born in Derry.

Are you involved with the project somehow?

mul
25-09-11, 22:57
The site that came up with Todd=Irish is not your usual site for surnames .
I found that out of 332 Todds in Ireland in the Griffiths evaluation 1850, 275 were in Ulster . With most of the sites saying that tod was an old English name for a fox and 3 foxes on the family shield , I would say that these todds were of Scottish or English origin that came in to Ireland with the plantation of Ulster .
Now your haplotype is not typical Todd I2a2 v I1 or R1b .
So who knows what happened ,did your family take up the Todd name for some other reason , maybe to hold onto land .
I would definitely follow up the Gibbins enquiry

Dubhthach
26-09-11, 00:26
Here's what Woulfe had to say in his 1923 book

Ó TOGHDHA—I—O Toffey, Towey, Tuffy; 'descendant of Toghdha' (chosen or elected); the name of a family of Ui Fiachrach, who were formerly chiefs of Bredagh, a district in the west of the barony of Tirawley, embracing the parish of Moygawnagh and part of the adjoining parish of Kilfian; still common in Mayo and Roscommon; generally anglicised Towey, but sometimes Tuffy.


Mac GIOBÚIN—V—M'Gibbone, M'Gibowne, MacGibbon, MacGibben, MacKibbon, O'Kibbon, Gibbonson, Fitz Gibbon, Fitzgibbon, Gibbons, Gibbins, Gibbings, Gibbon; 'son of Gibbon' (a diminutive of Gilbert); the name (1) of a branch of the Burkes of Connacht who were seated to the west of Croagh Patrick, in Co. Mayo; and (2) of a Co. Limerick family, usually said to be a branch of the Geraldines, but really descended from Gilbert de Clare who, at the beginning of the 14th century, possessed the manor of Mahoonagh and many other valuable estates in Co. Limerick. The head of this family was known as the White Knight.

If you look at the 1901 census online there is 1724 Todd's in it. If you remove all non-catholic ones (say to remove Ulster plantation) you drop to 181 alot of whom are based within Ulster (9 counties). There were overy 228 Towey's in Mayo alone. If you search for Tuffy the biggest concentration is in Mayo followed by Sligo, with only one example outside of these two counties in Galway.

Keegah
26-09-11, 01:11
What would you say that implies? I have no bias towards either Scotland or Ireland, or England. It's just that we've only found DNA matches in Ireland. That's what's so damn confusing.

mul
27-09-11, 22:34
If you are getting Irish matches , what are the names bar Gibbins , which is Irish .
Also how close a match are they .

Keegah
28-09-11, 17:52
The matches are all Todds, hence the confusion. We match up with some Todds in Ireland, but literally no Todds from Great Britain. I'd assume we were Scottish if we matched up with the much more numerous Todds in Scotland and Northern England. But we don't. And I have no idea why. It's very frustrating.

However, we very recently found some more sensible relations to a Boyd family and a Bruce family, both from Scotland. However, they're not as close of a match as the Gibbins. On a 37 marker test, they're three off from a perfect match. Gibbins is one off.

Also. We joined an Ulster database project on FTDNA. We had zero matches. Same for a Scotland database.

I'm really at a loss here. I'd assumed we were Scottish at the start, then after only finding Irish matches I started to suspect we were Irishmen that changed our surnames, but now we have a relation to two very Scottish surnames. Despite us not having any matches with those of our own surname outside of Ireland.

If you have any advice as to where to go from here, I would greatly appreciate it.

mul
01-10-11, 21:55
Isles is a minority clad in Ireland and Britan .Less than 1000 people have been tested so far and multiple ones are the same family.Over 500 000 have been tested so far.
Your markers are Isles D1 and some of the names are Tomalty ,Mc Laurin,Furman,Nolan,McAbee,Hood,McDonald,Johnson,B oyd,Bruce,Long,Norton,Jolley,Stuart,Roberts,Sch
aller,Larocque,
Most of the names seem to be from Scotland.
I would see how close you are to the Gibbins man at 67 markers. If you are above 61/2 markers , that would be a close match

Gungnir
02-10-11, 00:12
I2a2b-Disles has been changed to I2a1b1-Disles.

This is my haplotype also. My understanding is that it is only found in Scotland and North East Ireland, and the colonies, of course. Last I heard there were only 80ish people known to have it, if I remember correctly, but that may have changed. My surname is now most commonly found in England but it has Gaelic origins and was a term used to refer to the Danish viking invaders and settlers so I assume that is where it came from. Who knows though, maybe it was there prior to them and my ancestors were adopted into the clan or something.

mul
03-10-11, 20:21
You are wright .
At this stage with the changing names , for simplicity I use I2a2 ,Isles ,Disles and Dinaric . When we use just these names most people know what we are talking about
Are you the typical 17,10,15,15 at dys 19,391,385ab .
There are some names like Wainright,Woods,McLean,Morrow,Henry,McCarrick,Davi s,McRae,Gibson,Heron,Haran,Conway,McGuire,Pruden,
Brennan,Downie,Pearce,Gribben,Moon,
There are more but not enough markers to be positive
I will assume your name is there ,If not PM me please

If you have any matches that are not there let me know

sparkey
03-10-11, 20:39
I2a-Isles has a center of diversity that spans both Britain and Ireland, seeing that all of its main STR clusters are present in both places, so we can't place its MRCA location very precisely, but we can be fairly sure that he was insular. The TMRCA of I2a-Isles makes it perhaps the best candidate for the status as the dominant haplogroup of the Grooved Ware peoples. That means that, as a clade, it spans the different ethnicities of the British Isles, and determining which particular ethnicity your I2a-Isles line passed through will need to utilize STR comparisons (as you're already doing, good job).

Gungnir
04-10-11, 04:14
My name is not on that list but close to one. You may not want to include me though because I do not know my markers. I tested only with 23andMe and sent my data to Ken Nordtvedt. He said it was most likely that since my ancestry is British Isles and the only other option was Dinaric, so it is assumed at this point I suppose. I wish I still had the email from him so I could remember exactly what he said. I know I asked him if I should test with another company and he told me it would serve no purpose. Is he on this board?

I went back and checked the emails and that is basically what he said.

Keegah
17-10-11, 02:35
This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

As always, thank you.

Gungnir
20-10-11, 23:00
Isn't that who the Scots-Irish are? They came from Ulster, right?

Taranis
20-10-11, 23:12
I2a-Isles has a center of diversity that spans both Britain and Ireland, seeing that all of its main STR clusters are present in both places, so we can't place its MRCA location very precisely, but we can be fairly sure that he was insular. The TMRCA of I2a-Isles makes it perhaps the best candidate for the status as the dominant haplogroup of the Grooved Ware peoples. That means that, as a clade, it spans the different ethnicities of the British Isles, and determining which particular ethnicity your I2a-Isles line passed through will need to utilize STR comparisons (as you're already doing, good job).

It would actually be very interesting if I2a2b in Ireland is really derived from the Grooved Ware Culture. I mean, if this is the case then it's clearly pre-Indo-European, and would as such obviously predate the emergence of all historically known ethnicities of the British Isles.

Keegah
21-10-11, 00:12
Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.

Taranis
21-10-11, 00:38
Pardon my ignorance, but are the Grooved Ware people and the Cruthins one in the same? Both searches yield results claiming that they're the original inhabitants of the British Isles.

Well, I'm inclined to disagree. In my opinion, the Cruthin (that's the modern Irish name, the original name would have been something like "Kʷritani") were the first Celtic inhabitants of Britain, and in turn, the name "Britain" (Welsh "Prydain") derives from them.

As far as I understand it, the term "Cruthin" was more or less the Irish exonym for the same people whom the Romans called "Picts". From what little is known about the Pictish language however (which appears to have been similar to Brythonic and Gaulish), these were a Celtic people.

I mean, it's unclear when exactly the first Celtic or otherwise Indo-European people arrived on the British Isles, wether it was during the Copper Age or during the Bronze Age, but it's clear that the Grooved Ware Culture came to an end with the arrival of the Beaker-Bell Culture.

Eireannach
21-10-11, 11:04
This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

As always, thank you.

The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

Eireannach
21-10-11, 11:08
Isn't that who the Scots-Irish are? They came from Ulster, right?

Yes they came from Ulster, however their origins are in Scotland.

Keegah
22-10-11, 01:38
The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.

So that makes me, once again, lean towards my family originally not being Todd until around the Ulster plantation. But other than gibbins I haven't found any potential predecessor surnames. Still, information is information. Thank you very much for the information sir.

Eireannach
23-10-11, 17:51
Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.



Are you sure about that? Schanon as you've spelled it doesn't evenly remotely look like a Gaelic name that has been anglicised, however it is possible.

Shannon is Ó Seannacháin or Ó Seanáin in Irish. There is another version Ó Sionáin (Sheenan) that is found more commonly in Ulster.

Keegah
23-10-11, 20:59
No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.

Eireannach
25-10-11, 21:23
No, I'm not. I'm mostly basing that off whenever I search for schanon the search engine corrects it to Shannon, and when I force it to search for schanon, the only results - of which there are very few - claim it's Irish. A pretty big leap, but considering I can't find "schanon" almost anywhere and its constantly mistaken for Shannon, it made sense to me. Do you have any idea of the names origin?

Now I'm reading that it looks it might be a German translation of Shannon. I'm looking a German Lutheran baptismal record of a family whose surname was Shannon. In the record, William was changed to wilhelm, amelia was changed to emilie, and Shannon was changed to schanon.

Shannon in the form Ó Seanacháin (which is also Shanahan) is a Dál gCais name from north Munster. Ó Sionáin (Sheenan as opposed to Shannon) is sometimes considered a variant of Ó Seanáin which is a County Tyrone sept. It is also Shinane, a west Clare name now widely changed to Shannon and spelled Ó Seanáin in Irish.


Confused?

Keegah
26-10-11, 01:21
No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

Again, thank you for your time and assistance.

Eireannach
26-10-11, 21:04
No, I understood you the first time regarding Shannon. I was asking about Schanon, which is the proper spelling of my ancestor, Joseph Todd's, wife's maiden name. Like I said, I'm leaning towards it being a Germanization of Shannon on account of the baptismal record, and the way "sch" seems to be pronounced in German (schnitzel). But I have not found a single straight definition or description of the name. What seems to be the case is that most European instances of the surname derive from Ireland. Whether it's native or not, I don't know.

Another question if you wouldn't mind answering sir. I've read that Ulster Scots named their children with typically English names once they arrived in America, like James and John. Did they do the same in Ireland?

Again, thank you for your time and assistance.

Yes the Ulster Scots named their children with typically English and Scottish names and have always done so. Have you ever heard of the plantation of Ulster?

Keegah
27-10-11, 01:07
Yes, I have. English colonization of protestants, mostly Scots, on confiscated Irish land in Ulster. Happened in the mid 1600s.

Was Patrick used by the Scots/English as a given name? Also, by the 1800s, had at least some Ulster Scots converted to Catholicism?

Thanks.

Keegah
27-10-11, 06:02
It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.

Eireannach
31-10-11, 21:40
It just struck me. Would a Catholic Ulster Scot intermarry with the native Irish? It seems like most of the animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots was due to Protestant-Catholic conflict. If an Ulster Scot was Catholic, as my ancestor was, would that eliminate the issue?

If not, a Todd marrying a Shannon, followed by that Todd's son marrying a Dempsey, seems very strange.

There is no such thing to my knowledge of a Catholic Ulster Scot and if there is they are few and far between and probably a more recent phenomenon. The Catholic people in Ulster would in the main be descendants of the original inhabitants.

The animosity between the Irish and the Ulster Scots is not a religious one. The two communities can be easily seperated and identified by their religion, however it is not the principle reason for their animostiy. That reason is a political one. The Ulster Scots (protestants, although many protestants are not Ulster Scots and would be descended from English settlers and the Ulster Scots would tend to be more of a Prebysterian persuasion) wish for Northern Ireland to remain in the UK, the Irish (Catholic) wish for it to be reunited with the Republic.

Keegah
01-11-11, 00:33
I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?

Eireannach
01-11-11, 22:58
I'm not referring to the present day situation of Ireland or its Ulster Scottish inhabitants, I'm referring to a man born in 1798, bearing a Scottish surname, that was irrefutably catholic. Upon immigrating to the US, he founded the first catholic church in southern Illinois, where he, and his wife, and his children, and his children's children, and their children, right up until my grandfather left the community, were buried. He clearly had a Scottish/English surname in Todd - he was born and lived in Derry. Unless his family changed their surname when the English arrived, which I briefly considered but no longer believe to be likely, it appears evident to me that he was an Ulster Scot. If he isn't, what would you suggest he is?

It is an interesting and unusal situation. Todd in Ireland is both of English and Scottish extraction and appeared in the 1659 census. There can be many explanations, here are just a few obvious ones:

1) The family were present in Ireland before the major plantations of the 1600's and were Catholic. (Probably the most likely scenario)
2) The family were protestant planters who at some stage converted to Catholicism. This is unlikely as Catholics (and Presbyterians to some extent) in Ireland from the 1660's into the 1800 's were subject to Penal Laws.
3) A Catholic Irish family adopted the name Todd as their surname for unknown reasons.

Yorkie
01-11-11, 23:35
I found the following comment informative.

Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It is true that the bulk of this clade is found in Ireland but it really should not be regarded as an Irish clade per se, as there is a relatively fair smattering of 'Isles' in England and lowland Scotland for a very small clade.

The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

sparkey
02-11-11, 00:02
Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.


The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

Yorkie
02-11-11, 00:37
Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.



Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

Sparkey,
I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

Nordtvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

In any case, Ydna is only a fraction of our ancestry. Personally, I am far more into autosomal dna these days. I think we sometimes place too much stall in Y haplogroups in terms of identity. For me, it is the overall picture that counts not so much these smaller parts.

sparkey
02-11-11, 01:07
Sparkey,
I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

Interesting points, I've been going mostly by the I2a Project, and would be interested in seeing how future diversity analyses within these clusters turns out. Right now, though, there's enough diversity of each cluster on the fringes of the British Isles (B being an interesting geographic exception, but still diverse enough) to make it a stiff metric for the continental samples to meet. Backmigrations are always possible, so we need more data.


Nortvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

I find Nordtvedt's conclusion still unconvincing, but I'm open to the possibility. I mean, it seems clear that I2a-Isles was a Northwestern haplogroup by the time it bottlenecked, which basically places it as Northwestern in the Mesolithic, British or not. This gives all kinds of possibilities for carriers of all the requisite SNPs to have been back and forth from Britain before the Neolithic even arrived, or the last single-individual bottleneck of I2a-Isles even occurred. Add to that the very real possibility that the MRCA of I2a-Isles could have been insular, or at least the MRCA of C/D, and I don't think that the Neolithic spread of I2a1a really has a shot. I'd give it about a 5% chance, with I2a-Isles needing to have all its modern clusters later arrivals (I find this less likely than not) and to have its extinct pre-I2a1a-spread clusters completely non-British (I find this much less likely than not).

Of course, if we're talking about the extant populations only (no extinct clusters allowed), the possibility that I2a1a beats it increases, but like I mentioned, I still find that less likely than not.

Disles is younger in terms of TMRCA, yes, but that just says when it expanded out of a single-individual bottleneck, not when it reached its current location. I think the more telling statistic is that the I2a-Isles-A/B split with I2a-Isles-C/D is older than the I2a-Disles split with I2a-Dinaric. That has made me believe that I2a-Disles is newer, but how Disles and Dinaric got so radically separated is hard to tell.

Keegah
10-03-12, 09:19
Don't suppose anyone on this forum has a surname of Shinnick, O'Sionnaigh, or Fox (if you know your ancestors were Irish)? If so, I'd appreciate getting into contact with you and asking some questions. Either here in this thread of via PM is fine, whichever you prefer.

Also, for the individuals here that are currently living in Ireland, are any of you familiar with Derry, specifically Templemore?

Thanks.

Eireannach
31-05-12, 17:27
Also, for the individuals here that are currently living in Ireland, are any of you familiar with Derry, specifically Templemore?

Thanks.

Just know its out the Buncrana rd

King Niall
27-06-12, 20:12
The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America


There are lot of people that are not native to the British Isles but who are "experts" on it case in point.

King Niall
27-06-12, 20:15
The irish and norwegians have the highest northwest admixture in europe.

Keegah
27-06-12, 22:46
What's your point? And, no offense meant, what does it have to do with the question that I asked?

13-08-12, 18:47
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.

sparkey
13-08-12, 18:50
Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.

We need to look at your STR markers, as I mentioned in reply to your first post (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25287-I2a2-M423&p=397964&viewfull=1#post397964). Did you test through FTDNA?

13-08-12, 18:59
Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:



DYS393
DYS390
DYS19
DYS391
DYS385
DYS426
DYS388
DYS439
DYS389I
DYS392
DYS389II


13
24
16
11
12-15
11
12
11
13
11
30



Yes, this was through FTDNA

sparkey
13-08-12, 21:01
Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:



DYS393
DYS390
DYS19
DYS391
DYS385
DYS426
DYS388
DYS439
DYS389I
DYS392
DYS389II


13
24
16
11
12-15
11
12
11
13
11
30



Yes, this was through FTDNA

Replied here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25287-I2a2-M423&p=398080#post398080), let's keep the discussion on that thread.

Eireannach
28-11-12, 22:33
There are lot of people that are not native to the British Isles but who are "experts" on it case in point.


What do you mean?