PDA

View Full Version : Looking for autosomal data (23andMe) from ex-Yugolslavia, Albania and Ukraine



Maciamo
21-09-11, 18:30
In order to achieve relatively accurate autosomal maps (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml), I absolutely need to find data from individuals with ancestry from the following countries:

- Croatia
- Bosnia-Herzegovina
- Serbia
- Montenegro
- Kosovo
- Albania
- Macedonia
- Ukraine

Those in bold are the most important as they represent key populations for the map.

I would also like more data from these countries and regions :

- Switzerland
- Austria
- Czech Republic
- Slovakia
- Latvia
- Estonia
- Brittany, Auvergne, Languedoc and Provence in France
- specific regions of Turkey (all ancestors in the same region)


Anybody who has taken a test with 23andMe or FTDNA's Family Finder is eligible. If you have not sent your data to the Dodecad Project, you can run the admixtures yourself with the Do-It-Yourself Dodecad (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/08/do-it-yourself-dodecad-v-20.html). I can also run it for you if you wish.

Knovas
21-09-11, 18:48
Actually, only DOD307 is known to be from Switzerland, and DOD810 to be from Czech Republic. The Balkan sample needs to be divided even more, because surely contains information about the first populations you mention.

I'm afraid Latvians and Estonians are absent till the moment at Dodecad. I know the results of all Lithuanians, and if one more sample like this gets into the project, it's very easy to identify.

rogers
26-09-11, 11:42
I have already submitted my data...I thought Dienekes was doing this project? Are you helping out or something?

I have Bosnian / Croatian heritage...

I have already had a go at Dienekes for lumping all of the Balkans together which is a stupid idea IMHO...

I am no longer interested in this project until all of the Balkans are separated into individual countries...It's a very diverse genetic group...

Knovas
26-09-11, 15:55
Hi Rogers,

Maciamo asked because he used Dodecad data to perform autosomal maps, and there are none of this samples identified till the moment, so yours it's a very interesting one. I wrote a message to a Bosnian girl a few days ago telling if she wanted to join Dodecad too, but I haven't recived an answer. I don't know if she finally will decide to get into the project or not.

If you check the blog, you'll see Dienekes' recently devided the Balkan sample, but of course there are still quite with unknown origin between them. That's because he only separates individuals when he has, at least, 5 individuals from the same population. I'm afraid you'll have to wait to see wich samples are exactly (or more or less) from the same region as you. Once you have the results, I recomend you download the population portraits (where the Balkan sample is included) to see wich individuals look more similar to you in the graphics, inferring then wich could be from the same country or near.

Maciamo
26-09-11, 16:29
I have already submitted my data...I thought Dienekes was doing this project? Are you helping out or something?

I have Bosnian / Croatian heritage...

I have already had a go at Dienekes for lumping all of the Balkans together which is a stupid idea IMHO...

I am no longer interested in this project until all of the Balkans are separated into individual countries...It's a very diverse genetic group...

My approach is different from that of Dienekes. I want to clearly separate every country from the Balkans. Unfortunately he didn't mention which member was from what country. What is your DOD number ? (you can send me a PM if you don't want to reveal it publicly).

Wilhelm
26-09-11, 21:01
Dodecad today has incorporated the Ukranian and Bulgarians sample taken from a recent study.

rogers
27-09-11, 11:02
My approach is different from that of Dienekes. I want to clearly separate every country from the Balkans. Unfortunately he didn't mention which member was from what country. What is your DOD number ? (you can send me a PM if you don't want to reveal it publicly).

I can tell you that your map for NorthWest European admixture is completely wrong for Croatia and Bosnia. I score about 50% in that mix...as for East European???...there is no such admixture being evaluated in the Dodecad project so I don't know how you got this data...Mediterranean...? I think you mean southern European...15 - 20 % is correct..West Asian 10 - 20 % is correct..South West Asian is about 2 - 5%, African < 1 %..so essentially your North West European scores for Croats and Bosnians is very inaccurate...Hope this helps

Knovas
27-09-11, 11:19
It seems you are looking the K=10 results. Actually, there's a new spreadsheet including the East European where your results must appear in the individual section here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=3

According to what you say, you look very different from the two Bosnians I share genomes with at 23andme. Having both the higher similarity with Southern Europe and checking the values, it is impossible they get 50% North or West European like you do. They cluster with Southern Europe neatly, as well as Eastern Europe, so the results you describe simply don't match with this. Well, it's curious.

Maciamo
27-09-11, 11:34
I can tell you that your map for NorthWest European admixture is completely wrong for Croatia and Bosnia. I score about 50% in that mix...

This is exactly why I started this thread, because I didn't have any data for Croatia and Bosnia and therefore couldn't make an accurate map.


as for East European???...there is no such admixture being evaluated in the Dodecad project so I don't know how you got this data...Mediterranean...? I think you mean southern European...15 - 20 % is correct..West Asian 10 - 20 % is correct..South West Asian is about 2 - 5%, African < 1 %..so essentially your North West European scores for Croats and Bosnians is very inaccurate...Hope this helps

As Knovas said, the map are based on the K=12 admixtures (first introduced in late June 2011). Could you check again your results and let me know.

Maciamo
27-09-11, 11:40
Dodecad today has incorporated the Ukranian and Bulgarians sample taken from a recent study.

Thanks for letting me know. I will modify the maps as the Ukrainians have much more West European admixture than expected. I thought they would fit between the Belarussians and the Romanians, but it's not the case. Belarussians have considerably less 'West European' than all other Slavs.

Knovas
27-09-11, 11:59
Thanks for letting me know. I will modify the maps as the Ukrainians have much more West European admixture than expected. I thought they would fit between the Belarussians and the Romanians, but it's not the case. Belarussians have considerably less 'West European' than all other Slavs.
I mentioned the new sample in the East European post, although didn't notice the Ukranian peculiarity. It's possible you'll have to do some other minor changes.

rogers
27-09-11, 12:08
It seems you are looking the K=10 results. Actually, there's a new spreadsheet including the East European where your results must appear in the individual section here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=3

According to what you say, you look very different from the two Bosnians I share genomes with at 23andme. Having both the higher similarity with Southern Europe and checking the values, it is impossible they get 50% North or West European like you do. They cluster with Southern Europe neatly, as well as Eastern Europe, so the results you describe simply don't match with this. Well, it's curious.

I can't speak for others but my DNA calc results show 60% North Western European 35% Southern European and 5 % Ashkenazi...On K12 my Eastern Euro is 20.5%

Knovas
27-09-11, 12:12
EuroDNACalc is not much accurate, what you got makes "sense" considering I'm Iberian and the DNA Calc gave me 75% Northwest and 25% Southeast, with 0% Ashkenazi.

Maciamo was also asking your East + West + Mediterranean score in the K=12 v3. 20.5% for the moment makes sense, so ¿what about the others?

rogers
27-09-11, 12:20
EuroDNACalc is not much accurate, what you got makes "sense" considering I'm Iberian and the DNA Calc gave me 75% Northwest and 25% Southeast, with 0% Ashkenazi.

Maciamo was also asking your East + West + Mediterranean score in the K=12 v3. 20.5% for the moment makes sense, so ¿what about the others?

34% Western Euro 25.8% Southern

I would be happy to hear what you think about this..

Knovas
27-09-11, 12:28
OK.

At least, now it's more clear. I guess you both Croats and Bosnians are a bit heteregeneous like happens in the global Balkan sample, so more participants will be necesary to get an accurate idea. I expected less West Asian and Southwest Asian (I assume is the vast majority of the rest of admixture), and more Mediterranean, but probably other people from the same region will get reports like this in the future.

Thanks!

rogers
27-09-11, 12:44
OK.

At least, now it's more clear. I guess you both Croats and Bosnians are a bit heteregeneous like happens in the global Balkan sample, so more participants will be necesary to get an accurate idea. I expected less West Asian and Southwest Asian (I assume is the vast majority of the rest of admixture), and more Mediterranean, but probably other people from the same region will get reports like this in the future.

Thanks!

It's quite obvious that Croats and Bosnians migrated from Northern-Eastern Europe to Southern Europe only recently...autosomal admixtures clearly indicate this...

Maciamo
27-09-11, 13:17
Thanks, Roger. It looks that my maps were correct after all (based on your data), despite of the fact that I had to guess the Croatian and Bosnian admixtures.

What about the West Asian and Southwest Asian admixtures ? My guesses are between 5 and 10% for the first and between 1 and 5% for the second.

rogers
27-09-11, 13:24
Thanks, Roger. It looks that my maps were correct after all (based on your data), despite of the fact that I had to guess the Croatian and Bosnian admixtures.

What about the West Asian and Southwest Asian admixtures ? My guesses are between 5 and 10% for the first and between 1 and 5% for the second.

Maciamo...I still don't understand your first map..You have it as NorthWest?? Where did you get the data? If it's from the K12 data there is no North aspect to this only West..so what you are saying is that West is not separate from North??

Maciamo
27-09-11, 13:30
Maciamo...I still don't understand your first map..You have it as NorthWest?? Where did you get the data? If it's from the K12 data there is no North aspect to this only West..so what you are saying is that West is not separate from North??

It is 'West European' in Dodecad, but I renamed it 'Northwest European' as it was more appropriate.

rogers
27-09-11, 14:10
It is 'West European' in Dodecad, but I renamed it 'Northwest European' as it was more appropriate.

It's misleading to some degree. There is an obvious East-West cline as there is a North-South cline...

One needs to represent this for what it is..."Western" pure and simple until such time there are Northern markers...which unduobtedly there are but for reasons unknown to me Dienekes is not using them??

Maciamo
27-09-11, 14:34
It's misleading to some degree. There is an obvious East-West cline as there is a North-South cline...

One needs to represent this for what it is..."Western" pure and simple until such time there are Northern markers...which unduobtedly there are but for reasons unknown to me Dienekes is not using them??

It is not originally "Western". This admixture is found as far east as Mongolia (5%) and as far south as India (12% in the Vaishya Hindus). In my opinion, this admixtures comprise one Proto-Indo-European element from Russia, which is why the so-called 'Western European' admixture exceeds 30% in Russians, and reaches almost 40% in Ukrainians. It's just that Slavic people inherited a greater percentage of 'East European' from the Baltic region, but the origins of most of the "Western European" admixture might be in the North Caucasus, South Russia and Ukraine.

Knovas
27-09-11, 14:59
What about the West Asian and Southwest Asian admixtures ? My guesses are between 5 and 10% for the first and between 1 and 5% for the second.
Your guesses are a bit low.

West + East + Med = 80.3 %

West Asian + Southwest Asian should be around 16-18% (or more), considering it's difficult he has much South Asian, Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian. And the African autosomes must be absent or plain noise if reported.

rogers
27-09-11, 16:25
Your guesses are a bit low.

West + East + Med = 80.3 %

West Asian + Southwest Asian should be around 16-18% (or more), considering it's difficult he has much South Asian, Northeast Asian and Southeast Asian. And the African autosomes must be absent or plain noise if reported.

No..it's 14.8 (West Asian + Southwest Asian)


What's your breakdown Knovas..being Iberian?

Knovas
27-09-11, 16:50
Oh, it really surprises me! I supose you don't have any (or insignificant) African reported, since it's pretty rare among the Balkans.

I'll send you a private message ;)

rogers
27-09-11, 17:15
Oh, it really surprises me! I supose you don't have any (or insignificant) African reported, since it's pretty rare among the Balkans.

I'll send you a private message ;)

ha ha..of course not...it's 0.5% North West African...noise??

Thanks for the pm...Wow..you have a high Med score..is that typical for Spaniards?

Knovas
27-09-11, 17:30
Yes, I told noise since 0.5% (I didn't expect more) it's probably not real, too low.

The Spanish average is 48% and several of us get more than 50%, also Southern French could get reports like this. In the Balkan sample ther's one scoring 44%, wich I wonder if could belong to Bosnia. You are mostly Croatian and it's possible you normaly get more Northern European scores than Bosnians, although I think it's not rare to find 30% in other Croatians. You are near 26%, wich is just slightly lower.

rogers
28-09-11, 02:22
Yes, I told noise since 0.5% (I didn't expect more) it's probably not real, too low.

The Spanish average is 48% and several of us get more than 50%, also Southern French could get reports like this. In the Balkan sample ther's one scoring 44%, wich I wonder if could belong to Bosnia. You are mostly Croatian and it's possible you normaly get more Northern European scores than Bosnians, although I think it's not rare to find 30% in other Croatians. You are near 26%, wich is just slightly lower.

I would not assume the 44% is from a Bosnian more likely to be Bulgarian IMO...That seems too high for a Bosnian unless they have mixed Turkish blood which not many do.

Wilhelm
28-09-11, 02:52
I would not assume the 44% is from a Bosnian more likely to be Bulgarian IMO...That seems too high for a Bosnian unless they have mixed Turkish blood which not many do.
Wrong, since Turks have only 25% mediterranean.

Knovas
28-09-11, 10:18
The actual Balkan average with samples from different regions is 30%, wich is a substantial percent. So it wouldn't be surprising to find Bosnians in the large 30's or more than 40%. Note that Croatians have 2 times more R1a and more R1b than Bosnians, who in contrast have a very high percent of I2*/I2a. Your percent rogers is just lower becuase you have inherited more West Asian, Southwest Asian and others, but I'm sure other Croacians could perfectly get, at least, 30% too, conserving the rest of East and West European you get.

By the way, Bulgarians have almost the same Mediterranean average comparing with the Balkans I mention. The Dodecad samples average is 32%, while the new Yunusbayev samples show 29%. Turks have nothing to do here, there's no significant difference between Bulgarians and the rest.

rogers
28-09-11, 14:52
Wrong, since Turks have only 25% mediterranean.

It would be nice if you first introduced yourself into this thread before making a sweeping statement like that..It's quite unnerving..uhhg

What are your percentages just out of curiosity?

rogers
28-09-11, 15:04
The actual Balkan average with samples from different regions is 30%, wich is a substantial percent. So it wouldn't be surprising to find Bosnians in the large 30's or more than 40%. Note that Croatians have 2 times more R1a and more R1b than Bosnians, who in contrast have a very high percent of I2*/I2a. Your percent rogers is just lower becuase you have inherited more West Asian, Southwest Asian and others, but I'm sure other Croacians could perfectly get, at least, 30% too, conserving the rest of East and West European you get.

By the way, Bulgarians have almost the same Mediterranean average comparing with the Balkans I mention. The Dodecad samples average is 32%, while the new Yunusbayev samples show 29%. Turks have nothing to do here, there's no significant difference between Bulgarians and the rest.

Knovas...I doubt you are right in this regard...Haplogroups would not the least correlate with modern autosomal admixtures...it's ludicrous to think that this could be the case...

Knovas
28-09-11, 15:34
I know most times haplogroups don't correlate, in Spain you have a clear example (Passiegos). However, for what I see in the Balkan average, it's possible the difference I mentioned could have something to do in this case. Also, the two Bosnians sharing genomes at 23andme makes me think it's very likely, since they cluster with Southern Europe neatly, as well as Eastern Europe. I'll search and see if I find Croatians, but my impression is that you are more Northern, while Bosnians have higher Med.

rogers
28-09-11, 16:02
I know most times haplogroups don't correlate, in Spain you have a clear example (Passiegos). However, for what I see in the Balkan average, it's possible the difference I mentioned could have something to do in this case. Also, the two Bosnians sharing genomes at 23andme makes me think it's very likely, since they cluster with Southern Europe neatly, as well as Eastern Europe. I'll search and see if I find Croatians, but my impression is that you are more Northern, while Bosnians have higher Med.

OK it will be interesting to see what you find. I know that Bosnians have some Gothic and Saxon admix so...I as I said before I would be surprised if they have the levels of Med you are saying.

Wilhelm
28-09-11, 17:38
It would be nice if you first introduced yourself into this thread before making a sweeping statement like that..It's quite unnerving..uhhg

What are your percentages just out of curiosity?
I don't have to presente myself, i've been here longer than you, and it was not a sweeping statement, is what Dodecad shows, Turks have 25-28% mediterranean, thus the high merditerranean in the Balkans has nothing to do with Turks.

Knovas
28-09-11, 17:44
I posted you the spreadsheet to check the averages rogers (as well as the individual results). But no problem to post it again, perhaps you'll understand more what I said: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

rogers
29-09-11, 10:07
I don't have to presente myself, i've been here longer than you, and it was not a sweeping statement, is what Dodecad shows, Turks have 25-28% mediterranean, thus the high merditerranean in the Balkans has nothing to do with Turks.

Being here longer than me gives you no right to be rude.

I have asked you what your admixture breakdown is...why don't you contribute to this thread by letting us know about your own personal admix?

rogers
29-09-11, 10:16
I posted you the spreadsheet to check the averages rogers (as well as the individual results). But no problem to post it again, perhaps you'll understand more what I said: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=COCa89AJ&key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0


Thanks Knovas...I appreciate it!

It's interesting that Northern Italians have such a high Med admix....I would have expected them to be lower than 44.7 % average...strange..

Correct me if I am wrong but are there several projects involved apart from Dodecad?..eg: HGDP, Yunusbay, Behar, Rasmussen, Hapmap, 1000 genomes..

Knovas
29-09-11, 10:29
You are Correct. Some of the samples were collected by professional studies, as for example the new Yunusbayev or Behar. The rest seem to be other companies or projects dedicated to genetics (some Universities involved), wich have lots of samples from many different regions.

Northern Italians have quite Mediterranean, yes. Between them is also possible to find individuals with more than 50%, although for the moment the Dodecad samples hasn't collected anyone, is in the HGDP where you can find several of these. They are quite similar comparing with Iberians, basically they have less Northern European.

Sile
29-09-11, 11:12
You are Correct. Some of the samples were collected by professional studies, as for example the new Yunusbayev or Behar. The rest seem to be other companies or projects dedicated to genetics (some Universities involved), wich have lots of samples from many different regions.

Northern Italians have quite Mediterranean, yes. Between them is also possible to find individuals with more than 50%, although for the moment the Dodecad samples hasn't collected anyone, is in the HGDP where you can find several of these. They are quite similar comparing with Iberians, basically they have less Northern European.


so many Italians where displaced around the country or "forced" to emigrate that genetics has become useless
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_diaspora

it was so bad, that sometimes areas developed their own language in foreign lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect

Talian , a veneto dialect

Knovas
29-09-11, 11:26
The North Italians collected get different results from the rest of Italians, they are very easy to distinguish, so not useless at all. I supose North Italy has actually quite influences from other Italian regions, specially in the big cities. Nothing surprising at the present time.

For the rest, it seems it's true the migration to other lands was massive. This are simply "lost" samples, or others have tested being mixed with some Anglo-American stock or other influences. 23andme is plenty of people with half Italian heritage, probably some of them join the projects, although they are surely separated from the averages.

Mihajlo
15-10-11, 14:38
Thanks, Roger. It looks that my maps were correct after all (based on your data), despite of the fact that I had to guess the Croatian and Bosnian admixtures.

What about the West Asian and Southwest Asian admixtures ? My guesses are between 5 and 10% for the first and between 1 and 5% for the second.

Hi everybody !

I would like to add that my total West_asian average In DIYdodecad 2.0 is 14.38 % and it peaks at 20.66% on my chromosome 1. On the others it often reach around 15 %... and I 'm half Croatian half flemish ! I guess the West_asian should be higher in my mother DNA. She comes from dalmatia.

Maciamo
15-10-11, 19:18
Hi everybody !

I would like to add that my total West_asian average In DIYdodecad 2.0 is 14.38 % and it peaks at 20.66% on my chromosome 1. On the others it often reach around 15 %... and I 'm half Croatian half flemish ! I guess the West_asian should be higher in my mother DNA. She comes from dalmatia.

Thanks for sharing. Your percentage of West Asian is definitely higher than I would have expected, especially if you are half Flemish. So far, the Belgians who tested with Dodecad have between 5.5% and 9% of West Asian, with an average of 8%. Your mother must have at least 20%.

Knovas
15-10-11, 19:40
Croatians are probably quite heterogeneous, that's my impression. Some of them must have more Mediterranean instead West Asian or Southwest Asian. Will see as more samples come if appears, at least, one of them.

Eldritch
17-02-13, 21:50
Croatians are probably quite heterogeneous, that's my impression. Some of them must have more Mediterranean instead West Asian or Southwest Asian. Will see as more samples come if appears, at least, one of them.
Southwest Asian is rather uncommon in Balkans except Greece.

zanipolo
18-02-13, 21:51
Southwest Asian is rather uncommon in Balkans except Greece.

albania has the highest Balochi ( south -west asian ) percentage in europe at 15.6%. Check Jan 1 DNATribes STRs notes.

Next highest level is 7.7% celtic from NW Ireland

MOESAN
18-02-13, 22:59
for I understood, 'balochi' element was not a part of 'South-West-Asian' ("arabian") but rather a part of 'West-Asian' (associated with "caucasian" or "caucasic" according to unclear namings)

Yetos
18-02-13, 23:35
Southwest Asian is rather uncommon in Balkans except Greece.

@ Eldritch

have you data?
or you just accuse.


In fact Albania has the biggest peaks in Europe in Balochi and Altaic marks.
and
Greece has almost no Altaic (Turkic-sh) and search how much Balochi before you say whatever.

zanipolo
18-02-13, 23:48
for I understood, 'balochi' element was not a part of 'South-West-Asian' ("arabian") but rather a part of 'West-Asian' (associated with "caucasian" or "caucasic" according to unclear namings)

hmm, unsure. maybe it was fabricated, because all I have is middle-east ( includes arabia), west-asian, south-asian, central-asian, caucasus to name just a few from around the area.

balochi is the new name for the old gedrosia name .......south-east iran area, bordering pakistan.


maybe someone can clear this south-west asian terminology up

Eldritch
19-02-13, 10:38
Dna tribes it's known for very huge flaws and the study is doubtful at least, how can Ireland be in second place after Albania? Doesn't make much sense, and the Altaian component according to the study is related to Mesolithic genes not to "Turkish Admixture"

Alexandros
23-02-13, 12:49
Maciamo do you have/need any autosomal data on Cyprus?