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oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 02:53
My last of this type of thread. Multiple choice, as always.

I am including all of North Africa in this.. Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, Libyans, and Egyptians.

Moroccans;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3305382174_07842999de_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3304554983_f4bd600aff_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3613/3305381940_679221400d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3626/3305381664_378b6a2e13_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3481/3304554023_b54ffb513d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3304553977_7725c8dc72_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/3305380984_dbf7e5d093_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3636/3305380906_ec9273de70_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/3305380836_ac236644cc_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3347/3305380740_1e1aecfed6_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3369/3305380680_41ba31fbfa_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3626/3304553309_2c614dbfbd_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3609/3304553021_0eaeec81bd_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3417/3305380124_9566529fbe_m.jpghttp://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4219/2982915yr1.jpg

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 02:59
Algerians;

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5064431901_328d630290_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5065044892_0b0e2b7bd1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5064431583_a23612d125_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5065044590_a3f589dffb_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5065044258_182467f562_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5064430861_247e34a211_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5064430757_80721e733b_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5065043976_1b13bd9bce_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5064430391_b026272f9c_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5065043308_97b9f593d0_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5064429725_6dd8a5fdd3_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5064429383_7613b80f89_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5065042356_8329c7043f_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4835327407_e52ed663c0_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/4835935950_2bfb83ac6e_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/4835323609_d9f2de810b_m.jpghttp://nessymon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/friendly-algerians.jpg

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 03:06
Tunisians;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2496/3925988764_1c3f4bb229_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3507/3925988834_7ca267e81a_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/3925989070_023037daeb_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/3925205001_70cd2a0030_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2493/3925205243_ea470988ea_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3425/3925989544_15a2e9c059_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3925205473_929f55e5ff_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2592/3925989694_c36d6f6f2f_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2434/3925205529_19348d5e64_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2435/3925205557_e1dc4983d5_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2626/3925989910_2d36f2c556_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/3925205657_702dd96e2f_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/3925205847_4416bcd8ce_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4153/4834495507_2bdfbefc16_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4835102650_fa2b51dae3_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/4834493159_8b6aae9b83_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/4834492983_15225f4273_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4834490957_44dfe3491f_m.jpghttp://www.ziomania.com/images2011/tunisia/01/tunisian%20riots278.jpg

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 03:24
Egyptians.. do they look different from other North Africans?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5002/5198258805_0b26198069_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5198853134_0704aee3e1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5198853040_f8f33a2bb1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5198258541_43585c9c42_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5198258401_a82780a58b_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5198258027_e568f1d8d8_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5198852540_b488686d4d_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5198852182_26ccae8af1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5198851942_4224bdbb2f_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5198851762_0a6a681796_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5198851370_9829e7ed70_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5198256657_1b8d5a88c9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5198256247_f087d2326b_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5198255815_7805306d71_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5198850298_e3db58447e_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5198849754_0d44b484d6_m.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Egyptians-15.jpg

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 03:36
Libyans

http://j.imagehost.org/0207/lib10.jpghttp://j.imagehost.org/0513/lib8.jpghttp://i40.tinypic.com/afkjk4.jpghttp://i40.tinypic.com/2mzljzs.jpghttp://i39.tinypic.com/66emup.jpghttp://i41.tinypic.com/rseh5s.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3785418558_73b7008793.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2466/3785560188_211db26d31.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/66027425_f187778491.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2667/3875395730_2a316e3ba1.jpghttp://www.thehollywoodliberal.com/images/shaha_ali_riza.jpghttp://www.tdg.ch/files/imagecache/468x312/newsdesk/31122009/e870fc8.jpghttp://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Libya-IMG-1498-Libyanlb.jpghttp://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Clipboard03.jpg

Goga
24-09-11, 03:40
Every anthropologist will say that they belong to a Mediterranean phenotype!

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 03:41
Every anthropologist will say that they belong to a Mediterranean phenotype!

Where would you fit them best, if you had to choose a couple of the places I listed off on the poll?

Goga
24-09-11, 03:48
Where would you fit them best, if you had to choose a couple of the places I listed off on the poll?Very north African.

Like I said before, Eastern Euro's do look like Eastern Euro's, Southern Euro's do look like Southern Euro's, East Asians (from China) look like East Asians, West Asians do look like West Asian and North Africans look like North Africans.

All these folks are a product of the climate and food of a place where they live!

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 04:21
Do you think Egyptians look significantly different from other North Africans?

Goga
24-09-11, 04:54
I don't know. I was never in that part of the world, nor in Africa, nor in Arabia. So I can't see it. You should better ask someone from that region.

Can you say what's a difference between a fella from Laos and a fella from Vietnam? But people who live there know the differences. This is what I mean, lol.

All I know is that some Egyptians don't consider themselves as Africans, but more as Arabs / Southwest Asians.

Cambrius (The Red)
24-09-11, 05:23
Do you think Egyptians look significantly different from other North Africans?

They look a bit different than those from the northwest African areas.

Cambrius (The Red)
24-09-11, 05:26
Most North Africans cannot pass as local anywhere in Europe. Not a worthwhile discussion.

Goga
24-09-11, 05:44
Most North Africans cannot pass as local anywhere in Europe. Not a worthwhile discussion.
I do not agree with you. If I look at this map these folks have between 20-30% and in some areas like north Algeria even 30-40% the Mediterranean admixture. So I guess that many North Africans share same DNA with Europe!

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

Goga
24-09-11, 05:59
Also Europe has some African admixture.

http://eupedia.com/images/content/African-admixture.gif



BTW, Egyptians have MUCH more West Asian admixture than other North Africans.

http://eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 07:46
I think Algerians and Tunisians look pretty much the same, Libyans and Egyptians are similar, and Moroccans are most different.

Maciamo
24-09-11, 09:44
IMHO, the answer to the poll is nowhere.

spongetaro
24-09-11, 11:04
Where would you fit them best, if you had to choose a couple of the places I listed off on the poll?


The Lybians you posted (especially the last two) look Sardinian.

Wilhelm
24-09-11, 17:19
They don't fit anywhere. And not in Southern-Europe. We have hundreds of thousands of North-African immigrants here and they are very distinguishable.

Knovas
24-09-11, 17:34
Quite ethnic Berbers can pass as natives in many different European areas. But they are actually a minority in North Africa.

PD: The "some" North African admixture in Iberia an Italy is incredibly low. Ridiculous to consider this.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 19:08
Quite ethnic Berbers can pass as natives in many different European areas. But they are actually a minority in North Africa.

PD: The "some" North African admixture in Iberia an Italy is incredibly low. Ridiculous to consider this.

That is true. But North Africans also share elements with Europe that are not North African specific, i.e. the Mediterranean component, the SW Asian component and in the case of Egypt and Libya, some of the West Asian as well.

Knovas
24-09-11, 19:15
Yes. Of course you can find non Berber North Africans with European look. But in average I don't see nothing significant to consider they fit.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 19:26
More pictures. These are Algerian and Tunisian.

Algerians;

http://www.le10sport.com/dynamic/images/actus/football/coupedumonde2010/fou%20alg1.jpghttp://5e.img.v4.skyrock.net/5e4/mec-algerois/pics/2642884230_1.jpghttp://images.allocine.fr/r_760_x/medias/nmedia/18/73/79/43/19216353.jpghttp://www.lebuteur.com/data/common/media/image_details/article-5567-Benzerga-21072099-2.jpghttp://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Algerians/3156430883_fa884f2c5d_o.jpghttp://photo.parismatch.com/media/photos2/3.-photos-culture/cinema/geraldine-nakache-et-leila-bekhti/1572724-1-fre-FR/Geraldine-Nakache-et-Leila-Bekhti.jpghttp://8e.img.v4.skyrock.net/8ea/sarahriani-online/pics/1576913640_small.jpghttp://s.psg.fr/psg/image/article/illustration_s/g/230/45935.jpghttp://www.soccerbyives.net/.a/6a00e54ef2975b883301310fa5e93c970c-500pihttp://www.rmc.fr/images/article/126338.jpg


Tunisians;

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v376/108/26/1431287809/n1431287809_30118063_8018.jpghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs132.snc1/5680_105456584359_736689359_1949038_4945453_n.jpgh ttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v336/9/60/35634607268/n35634607268_1419594_7803.jpghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs183.snc3/19035_298709188304_298655863304_3424398_2450633_n. jpghttp://i41.tinypic.com/2lsimb5.jpghttp://www.mosaiquefm.net/Tsawer/albums/userpics/10001/HAND20022010-2.jpghttp://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7233/estap8.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1202/16/71/1221400639/n1221400639_226995_5896.jpghttp://www.one-take.net/Affiche/images/447.jpg

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 19:38
Egyptian Copts;

http://infidelsunite.typepad.com/.a/6a0111685b4b71970c012876b8a30d970c-800wihttp://www.chobane.com/picture/Myriam-George/3.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Youssef_Boutros_Ghali.jpghttp://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2008/07/28/chahine460.jpghttp://images.forbes.com/media/lists/54/2007/HZC2.jpghttp://www.downloadriches.com/children_of_apes_and_pigs/Copts%20demonstration%20in%20Holland3-thumb-750x500.jpghttp://blogs.aljazeera.net/sites/default/files/imagecache/Post-image/images/Copt2%5B1%5D.jpghttp://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld//files/2009/12/cr_mega_939_copts.jpg

As far as Copts go, some of them have Ethiopian-like qualities.

http://0.tqn.com/d/middleeast/1/0/2/7/-/-/0503-copts-egypt.jpg

Wilhelm
24-09-11, 19:44
Oreo Cookie, what do you pretend with all these pictures ? They don't look european AT ALL.
Obviously I didn't vote any option, as they don't fit anywhere in Europe.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 19:47
Oreo Cookie, what do you pretend with all these pictures ? They don't look european AT ALL.
Obviously I didn't vote any option, as they don't fit anywhere in Europe.


Not as groups but I think as individuals they probably could. Keep in mind, the concept of "passing" isn't the same as "looking identical to". Some would have you believe that phenotypes change the second you cross the Mediterranean but it's a gradual, not instant process. Same with Greece and Turkey in my opinion. You don't have German lookalikes on one side and Saudi lookalikes on the other.

Wilhelm
24-09-11, 19:56
Not as groups but I think as individuals they probably could. Keep in mind, the concept of "passing" isn't the same as "looking identical to". Some would have you believe that phenotypes change the second you cross the Mediterranean but it's a gradual, not instant process. Same with Greece and Turkey in my opinion. You don't have German lookalikes on one side and Saudi lookalikes on the other.
Oh, come on, we have plenty of north-africans here and they don't pass. It's not gradual, it's a complete cut-off. Once you are to the other side of the strait you have a different race, with different genetics.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 20:04
Oh, come on, we have plenty of north-africans here and they don't pass. It's not gradual, it's a complete cut-off. Once you are to the other side of the strait you have a different race, with different genetics.

Unless they are significantly Sub-Saharan mixed (like some Moroccans are), they are still Caucasoid.

Wilhelm
24-09-11, 20:44
Unless they are significantly Sub-Saharan mixed (like some Moroccans are), they are still Caucasoid.
Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 20:48
Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

But they still have European-like components to their DNA. The thing that pulls them further away from Europe is the black African (15% like you said) and the North African.

Knovas
24-09-11, 20:49
Well, pure ethnic Berbers (for example Kabyle) should be near 100% Northwest African. They don't cluster with Europeans, but quite of them can really pass. What it's true is that between the main population from North Africa, people with European looking is less significant in number.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 20:52
It should be worth noting that most of the European-looking people in North Africa, and the vast majority of the people posted in this thread, are from the Mediterranean coast.

Knovas, did you vote on the poll? If not that's fine.

Knovas
24-09-11, 20:54
No I'd prefer not. If one day there's a similar thread about ethnic Berbers, I'll do it since it is more clear.

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 20:57
Which would you have said, had that been the case?

I think most North Africans are predominantly Berber anyhow, just with ~10/15% Sub-Saharan and another 10% SW Asian. No?

Wilhelm
24-09-11, 20:59
But they still have European-like components to their DNA. The thing that pulls them further away from Europe is the black African (15% like you said) and the North African.
Even if they are pure berber they are still north-african. There are Mozabites in the sample who are 100% pure berber (as seen by the Dodecad portraits) and they cluster with the rest of North-Africans (moroccans and other Mozabite).

oreo_cookie
24-09-11, 21:00
Even if they are pure berber they are still north-african. There are Mozabites in the sample who are 100% pure berber (as seen by the Dodecad portraits) and they cluster with the rest of North-Africans (moroccans and other Mozabite).


Yes this is true, so my point is most North Africans are more or less Berber anyhow, just Arab in culture for some of them, while others have noticeable Sub-Saharan influence.

Cambrius (The Red)
25-09-11, 03:31
Yes this is true, so my point is most North Africans are more or less Berber anyhow, just Arab in culture for some of them, while others have noticeable Sub-Saharan influence.

The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia. They make up about 15% of Northern Africans. These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the Upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic. All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.

oreo_cookie
25-09-11, 06:32
The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia. They make up about 15% of Northern Africans. These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic. All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.


But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?

Mzungu mchagga
25-09-11, 13:02
In general where can North Africans pass as native Europeans?

In Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Strasbourg, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia, Lisboa, Rome, Naples, Milano, Torino, Palermo, Genova, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Brussels, Antwerpen, London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Glasgow, Stockholm, Göteborg, Malmö, Kopenhagen, Frankfurt, Cologne, Hamburg, Berlin.

Antigone
25-09-11, 16:05
Only in Western Europe then MM? :grin:

oreo_cookie
25-09-11, 19:48
Anyone else?

Wilhelm
25-09-11, 19:56
But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?
minimal ? Dodecad Southwest-Asian (peaks in Arabians) : Algeria 16%, Tunisia 12%, Morocco 13%

Mzungu mchagga
25-09-11, 20:42
Only in Western Europe then MM? :grin:

Well, I haven't seen many Eastern Europeans who look like North Africans, while many urban West Europeans do! ;-)

Bodin
26-09-11, 01:19
Most of them ofcourse look only North African , but there is not small amount of them ( around 5%) that could pass as natives in most of Mediteranean lands , especially in Iberia , Malta and Sicilly . I voted for Spain . I believe most simillar to Europeans are Tuaregs . And yes Egyptians are diferent than Magreb populations , but ofcourse there is a lot of similarities to ( more than to Europeans )

oreo_cookie
26-09-11, 01:22
I thought Tuaregs were the most Sub-Saharan of Berbers.

Knovas
26-09-11, 01:27
Kabyle are the most similar, and they can fit not only in Southern Europe, also in several Northern European regions. You can find very light Berbers between ethnic tribes like this one.

Bodin
26-09-11, 01:38
I thought Tuaregs were the most Sub-Saharan of Berbers.
It could be the case , I am not realy shore about they autosomal DNA , but they look most European to me than other Magreb populations- lighter skin , lighter hair , less Arab facial shape ,... , I dont know how is it hapened .
About Kabyli , if I would search for Vandal and Alan from North Africa descendants I would search amongst them . Thanks for answering

Cambrius (The Red)
26-09-11, 17:51
But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?

Besides Arab (it's not really insignificant), there is a high percentage of SS African.

Just Blaz3d
28-09-11, 20:42
Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

~8% west African btw, and it sampled eastern Moroccans, more specifically, Nadoris, not northern Moroccans―Sarah Tishkoff would have naturally been unfamiliar with the cultural nuances of the country.


Which would you have said, had that been the case?

I think most North Africans are predominantly Berber anyhow, just with ~10/15% Sub-Saharan and another 10% SW Asian. No?

Northwest Africans were ~15% sub-saharan (largely west African mediated gene flow).

The study itself wasn't comprehensive of all northwest Africans, and entirely excluded northeast Africans.


The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia...

:laughing:

Even samples from Morocco's oriental Rif, proved to be "tainted" in Tishkoff's findings (having received various demic influences), so how exactly are these examples of "pure Berbers?" Furthermore, Amazigh (singular)/Imazighen (plural) just refers to Berbers in general, not a particular group or sub-group.

It would have been interesting to see what Tishkoff's figures, would have looked like, had she tested in Tétouan.


...These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the Upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic...

There is a lack of autochthonous E-M81 in the near east, it has its likely origins within the maghreb and not western Asia.


...All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.

:rolleyes2:


It could be the case , I am not realy shore about they autosomal DNA , but they look most European to me than other Magreb populations- lighter skin , lighter hair , less Arab facial shape ,... , I dont know how is it hapened...

Are you referencing Tuaregs? If so, this statement is rather confounding? As they are the most southerly of the Berber groups, and have historically had, the most varied contact, with respect to indigenous saharans and sahelians. Even those with a more north coastal African phenotypical pull, appear somewhat mildly admixed. I would provide examples, but it seems I need a minimum ten posts, before being allowed to link URLs.

Bodin
28-09-11, 23:36
I was many times with Tuaregs , and they look nearest to Europeans to me ( from all North Africans ) - but it could be personal impresion , I allready said I couldnt explain why that is the case

Carlos
29-09-11, 01:02
I was looking for the option anywhere, but not this one. They are fine as they are, they need not resemble any European site, there are very sexy.

Dean
30-09-11, 09:42
I agree with Maciamo: nowhere. Here in Spain we can clearly know who is of north african origins and who is not. Only a really tiny small amount of north africans can pass in europe.

Wilhelm
30-09-11, 17:52
I agree with Maciamo: nowhere. Here in Spain we can clearly know who is of north african origins and who is not. Only a really tiny small amount of north africans can pass in europe.
Exactly. Seems like common sense to anyone who has lived in Spain, but..there are very strange people in the net.

Carlos
01-10-11, 14:48
Roughly not exceptionally some do might fit. Are more attractive than the South Americans.

oreo_cookie
01-10-11, 16:06
Roughly not exceptionally some do might fit. Are more attractive than the South Americans.


I agree with this.

Cambrius (The Red)
01-10-11, 16:17
Anyone who actually believes that North Africans can pass as native in Spain or Portugal knows little about Iberian phenotypes. The differences are most obvious in a huge majority of cases. A few Kaybles might pass, that's about it. The closest fits are in parts of the Eastern Mediterranean where the indigenous populations have much more Near Eastern admixture by comparison to Western Europe.

Knovas
01-10-11, 16:32
What Cambria is saying is quite obvious, and we have the confirmation of this day by day.

Carlos
01-10-11, 16:42
^^

Yes, yes son, wrapped their arms. Obviously, you can not spend my life begging to be accepted, remember Ozzy, life is fleeting.

Just Blaz3d
02-10-11, 16:54
I was many times with Tuaregs , and they look nearest to Europeans to me ( from all North Africans ) - but it could be personal impresion , I allready said I couldnt explain why that is the case

Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.


Anyone who actually believes that North Africans can pass as native in Spain or Portugal knows little about Iberian phenotypes. The differences are most obvious in a huge majority of cases. A few Kaybles might pass, that's about it...

There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.


...The closest fits are in parts of the Eastern Mediterranean where the indigenous populations have much more Near Eastern admixture by comparison to Western Europe.

The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-10-11, 18:47
Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.



There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.



The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

I disagree. I've never seen a North African in Spain or Portugal who could pass as a true native (meaning non-Canarian, etc,). The real proof lies in autosomal DNA frequencies (govern phenotype); North Africans cluster nowhere near Iberians.

My point is that you will likely find more phenotypic overlap (although not substantial) between North Africans and people from some areas of the Eastern Mediterranean, since the Near Eastern genomic influences are significantly higher there than in SW Europe.

Cambrius (The Red)
02-10-11, 18:55
Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.



There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.



The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

BTW, Almargo is a very atypical Spaniard, even for the deep south of Spain. I don't know his background but I would't be at all surprised if he has recent N. African, Canarian or Roma ancestry, which, of course, would make him genetically non-native.

Just Blaz3d
03-10-11, 01:31
I forgot to address these older posts,


minimal ? Dodecad Southwest-Asian (peaks in Arabians) : Algeria 16%, Tunisia 12%, Morocco 13%

West Asian ancestry in north Africans is largely neolithic, and thus quite old, it is not recent (for the most part).


Besides Arab (it's not really insignificant), there is a high percentage of SS African.

Arab? Wtf?

As for the sub-saharan dna, the study wasn't comprehensive, Tishkoff never sampled Algerian Arabs, Chaouis, Kabyles, etc, only Algerian Mozabites, and excluded northeast Africa altogether, and parts of northwest Africa (like Mauritania for example). She used the Mozabite cluster as a reference, to contrast the other samples.


I disagree. I've never seen a North African in Spain or Portugal who could pass as a true native (meaning non-Canarian, etc,)...

Now we're excluding phenotypes, that have been possibly contributing to existing variables for centuries, because they were a result of demic exchange? You're reaching quite a ways bro.


...The real proof lies in autosomal DNA frequencies (govern phenotype); North Africans cluster nowhere near Iberians.

Genotypic variation does not always correlate with one's phenotype.

E.g., Cristiano Ronaldo (who allegedly has a Cape Verdean great grand mother) looks like quite a few Portuguese, not unsurprisingly, he and they (those Portuguese that resemble him) remind me of Moroccans.


My point is that you will likely find more phenotypic overlap (although not substantial) between North Africans and people from some areas of the Eastern Mediterranean, since the Near Eastern genomic influences are significantly higher there than in SW Europe.

What does the influx of geneflow from the near east into southeastern Europe, have to do with the latter group looking more like north Africans? Greeks look far more like west Asians than they do north Africans, in contrast, north Africans generally do not look like west Asians (or most Greeks).

As I indicated earlier, Almagro himself, is uncommon (from a phenotypical perspective) in Morocco, but not entirely atypical. And while he's reminiscent of the more easterly peripheries in the med basin, he also shares properties more akin to those found in the western basins.

As far as I know, when resembling Europeans, Moroccans look more so Iberian imo, Ibrahim Affelay being an example of this. There's actually another individual I had in mind, but his name escapes me at the moment.


BTW, Almargo is a very atypical Spaniard, even for the deep south of Spain. I don't know his background but I would't be at all surprised if he has recent N. African, Canarian or Roma ancestry, which, of course, would make him genetically non-native.

And nobody suggested he wasn't, he was merely used as an example of the more ambiguous looking Iberians, who have looks reminiscent of north Africans. I've even stressed several times, his look is fairly uncommon in Morocco itself. Perhaps Penelope Cruz would have fared a better choice (although, she doesn't look particularly ambiguous, as far as I can tell)?

Cambrius (The Red)
03-10-11, 04:29
I forgot to address these older posts,



West Asian ancestry in north Africans is largely neolithic, and thus quite old, it is not recent (for the most part).



Arab? Wtf?

As for the sub-saharan dna, the study wasn't comprehensive, Tishkoff never sampled Algerian Arabs, Chaouis, Kabyles, etc, only Algerian Mozabites, and excluded northeast Africa altogether, and parts of northwest Africa (like Mauritania for example). She used the Mozabite cluster as a reference, to contrast the other samples.



Now we're excluding phenotypes, that have been possibly contributing to existing variables for centuries, because they were a result of demic exchange? You're reaching quite a ways bro.



Genotypic variation does not always correlate with one's phenotype.

E.g., Cristiano Ronaldo (who allegedly has a Cape Verdean great grand mother) looks like quite a few Portuguese, not unsurprisingly, he and they (those Portuguese that resemble him) remind me of Moroccans.



What does the influx of geneflow from the near east into southeastern Europe, have to do with the latter group looking more like north Africans? Greeks look far more like west Asians than they do north Africans, in contrast, north Africans generally do not look like west Asians (or most Greeks).

As I indicated earlier, Almagro himself, is uncommon (from a phenotypical perspective) in Morocco, but not entirely atypical. And while he's reminiscent of the more easterly peripheries in the med basin, he also shares properties more akin to those found in the western basins.

As far as I know, when resembling Europeans, Moroccans look more so Iberian imo, Ibrahim Affelay being an example of this. There's actually another individual I had in mind, but his name escapes me at the moment.



And nobody suggested he wasn't, he was merely used as an example of the more ambiguous looking Iberians, who have looks reminiscent of north Africans. I've even stressed several times, his look is fairly uncommon in Morocco itself. Perhaps Penelope Cruz would have fared a better choice (although, she doesn't look particularly ambiguous, as far as I can tell)?

First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese (and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean). Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy. Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native?:rolleyes2: Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

LeBrok
03-10-11, 05:22
First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese (and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean). Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy. Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native?:rolleyes2: Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

Define who's native in Portugal, if you are able?
Does culture play a role in it, or it's purely genetic?

Cambrius (The Red)
03-10-11, 11:25
Define who's native in Portugal, if you are able?
Does culture play a role in it, or it's purely genetic?

If you are born in a certain country and genetically of non-indigenous stock you qualify only as culturally and politically native to it. A European, or anyone else, would need to have a genome that dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region of birth to be genetically indigenous. For example, Canarians with significant Gaunche ancestry are not genetically indigenous to mainland Spain. However, they are native Spaniards in the cultural and political sense.

In the specific case of Portugal - and this is well supported by autosomal DNA research - the genetic substratum (the founding ancestral pool, if you will) comprises essentially the following: Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Some Near Eastern (Megalithic and Neolithic) contributions also form a modest component of the Portuguese substratum.

Let's have your definition of "native". I'm sure your comments will be most interesting.

Wilhelm
03-10-11, 16:36
Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources :

http://globoesporte.globo.com/futebol/copa-do-mundo/noticia/2010/05/em-amistoso-torcida-de-cabo-verde-apoia-compatriota-c-ronaldo.html

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/cristiano-ronaldo-tem-costela-cabo-verdiana=f491641

Cambrius (The Red)
03-10-11, 18:23
Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources :

http://globoesporte.globo.com/futebol/copa-do-mundo/noticia/2010/05/em-amistoso-torcida-de-cabo-verde-apoia-compatriota-c-ronaldo.html

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/cristiano-ronaldo-tem-costela-cabo-verdiana=f491641

A very good question. I'll post my social psychological research on the matter in the near future...Ahhhh controversy, controversy.

Just Blaz3d
03-10-11, 21:47
First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese...

Perhaps not as common, but hardly atypical. His pheno's even been contrasted to a northern European (from the British Isles); Jamie Wright. The individual in question looks more Iberian than British, but then again, so do Colin Ferrell and Catherine Zeta-Jones.


...(and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean).

I never said that wasn't the case, merely that he'd made the allegation. In any case, it would be hard to determine whether the great-grandparent was of sub-saharan descent, since a) Ronaldo never made this public, b) Ronaldo isn't at all reminiscent of sub-saharans, and c) not all Cape Verdeans were/are sub-saharan (a small minority are almost entirely west eurasian).

The fact is, the average Cape Verdean appears to determinedly be, 43% European. Likely, a portion of the euro genetic substratum is Canarian, north African, and/or Jewish―as has been observed in other instances―and thus non-European (basic clustering at it's finest). But what's clear, is that they're heavily mixed (only 57% sub-saharan―almost entirely west African). So even if he has some sub-saharan admix, it is probably relatively minor (we're talking roughly ~7.13% black dna, with possible, additional, non-euro west eurasian input). Ronaldo would certainly fall well within the genetic norm for Iberians, and as has been already mentioned, doesn't look at all atypical for a peninsular inhabitant.

Jorge Rocha et al btw, for the study on Cape Verde (I can't link, but if you google his and the country's names, you should find articles referencing the work).


...Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy...

Where's the source for this? Is this just internet conjecture (e.g., Lola Luv, who was rumored to be half Trinidadian, when in actuality she was fully Ethiopian)? Or do you actually have verifiable citation to prove the contrary (that she's partially Gypsy)?

Regardless, Penelope Cruz resembles quite a few Spanish women, delicately built, thin-featured (i.e., gracilized). She hardly exhibits the exoticism of a Sergio Asenjo (who looks north African), Sergio Busquets (another pseudo-north African), or an Almagro―again I'm more than certain if there's northwest African ancestry, that it's not recent, he looks quite atypical for the region, despite the interesting surname.

As exotic as all those individuals are, I've corresponded with quite a few Iberians on these types of fora, who merely see them as existing outliers within the peninsula, not non-indigenous as you claim. It's understandable that some of the mentioned do not fall within the most typical of looks, but those types of phenos are too numerous to simply be ignored. Besides, they themselves only overlap with certain Moroccans for instance, the majority of Moroccans look more admixed.


...Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native?:rolleyes2:

You realize "third world" refers to non-aligned nations (in regards to their economic and political orientations)? Many eastern European countries are considered non first world, yet are European. And many "third world" nations can have, what could be characterized as "first world" economies (Brazil, China, and India for instance). I think what you might have meant was "developing?" In which case, Spain can be considered perhaps a step up from "developing," as both disparity and unemployment rates continue to rise (rate of joblessness follows similar trends to combined French and Italian unemployment). This only serves to compound Spain's fiscal crisis (Portugal's situation is quite worse).

I'd suggest re-evaluating your use of either, as Iberians are the last needing chastise any of their immigrants, coming from humbler pastures. :useless:


...Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

:laughing:

Autosomal DNA testing merely quantifies genetic relatedness to existing historical populations, it is allelic variation within the genome that expresses human variability (polymorphism). But even in two different sub-sets, you find a degree of interrelatedness. For example, the genes for lighter skin, in both Spaniards and Puerto Ricans, are expressed the same, even though a significant portion of the west eurasian component (in Puerto Ricans) is non-euro, and an additional proportion of the ancestry, being American and sub-saharan.


Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources...

Correction, great grandmother, according to multiple sources (including the second one you provided).

Translation:


The FIFA Player of the Year in 2008 is Portuguese, from the island of Madeira. But the family of the Lusitanian playmaker has ties to Cape Verde, through his great-grandmother, Elizabeth Rose.

Yes, Cristiano Ronaldo is very non-native, considering his great grandmother might have been your average CV creole (most likely no blacker). :rolleyes2:

LeBrok
04-10-11, 07:09
If you are born in a certain country and genetically of non-indigenous stock you qualify only as culturally and politically native to it. A European, or anyone else, would need to have a genome that dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region of birth to be genetically indigenous. For example, Canarians with significant Gaunche ancestry are not genetically indigenous to mainland Spain. However, they are native Spaniards in the cultural and political sense.

In the specific case of Portugal - and this is well supported by autosomal DNA research - the genetic substratum (the founding ancestral pool, if you will) comprises essentially the following: Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Some Near Eastern (Megalithic and Neolithic) contributions also form a modest component of the Portuguese substratum.

Let's have your definition of "native". I'm sure your comments will be most interesting.

Well, according to your definition Penelope Cruz and Cristiano Ronaldo are native to Portugal. Their genome, as you put it, "...dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region ..." Even if Ronaldo great grandma was (possibly) black, he is dominantly 87.5% autosomaly Portuguese, therefore native. Isn't 87.5% dominant enough for you? What's your percentage?
Penelope is at least 75% Portuguese, 25% Gypsy. Oh wait, Gypsy live in Portugal for 600 years. How come they are not included in Portugal autosomal substratum? 600 years is not long enough? Where is your cut off for native, one thousand years?

See, whatever definition for "native" you will find, it will look only good on paper, but it will become vague and imprecise when thrown against complexity of today's societies.

PS. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have this conversation if Penelope and Cristiano were blond, right?

Dean
04-10-11, 10:35
You guys, are running in circles. All what you are saying does not change the fact that north africans, as a whole, can not pass anywhere in europe as a native. Almost all the guys/girls posted by oreo have classical north african face features.

In addition, this poll is clearly biased. The question itself is biased. First, and foremost, the question indirectly asserts that north africans can pass somewhere in europe. The question is not if they "could pass" but, directly, "where" . Secondly, it is mandatory to vote for an european country because there is no choice to vote "nowhere". Thirdly, i dont know why Spain and portugal are the two first options in the poll.

And finally, if you compare two populations in a scientific way, you can not choose some elements to support your point of view and pretend being objective. You can not extrapolate a general rule by choosing only a few elements.

On the contrary, we live in spain and we see thousand spaniards every day. We have many north africans here living in spain. So, although less than spaniards, we can see every day a lot of them, enough to see that they are clearly different as a whole. They CAN NOT pass a as a native, in general. It is not a matter of dark hair or dark eyes or skin. Their facial features, their skull, etc... are different to our eyes.

So, i suspect that the people who voted this pool have never been to spain, portugal, italy, etc... and have never seen a north african. Or may be they have some stereotypes about southern europeans in general and about iberians in particular. I repeat, in general, they can not pass anywhere in europe.

Mzungu mchagga
04-10-11, 11:42
You guys, are running in circles. All what you are saying does not change the fact that north africans, as a whole, can not pass anywhere in europe as a native. Almost all the guys/girls posted by oreo have classical north african face features.

In addition, this poll is clearly biased. The question itself is biased. First, and foremost, the question indirectly asserts that north africans can pass somewhere in europe. The question is not if they "could pass" but, directly, "where" . Secondly, it is mandatory to vote for an european country because there is no choice to vote "nowhere". Thirdly, i dont know why Spain and portugal are the two first options in the poll.

And finally, if you compare two populations in a scientific way, you can not choose some elements to support your point of view and pretend being objective. You can not extrapolate a general rule by choosing only a few elements.

On the contrary, we live in spain and we see thousand spaniards every day. We have many north africans here living in spain. So, although less than spaniards, we can see every day a lot of them, enough to see that they are clearly different as a whole. They CAN NOT pass a as a native, in general. It is not a matter of dark hair or dark eyes or skin. Their facial features, their skull, etc... are different to our eyes.

So, i suspect that the people who voted this pool have never been to spain, portugal, italy, etc... and have never seen a north african. Or may be they have some stereotypes about southern europeans in general and about iberians in particular. I repeat, in general, they can not pass anywhere in europe.

I agree on this!
I don't want to be offensive to anyone, but my observation from this and other forums so far is that it's clearly people from the Mediterranean, Near East and Caucasus who have to demonstrate how European they are [looks, DNA, culture etc...] and how this fact distinguishes them from their other close neighbours. And yes, all these threads about this topic ARE biased, probably mostly also without realizing it.
For me personally it is a new and ironic experience, because especially women where I live put a lot of effort into NOT looking North European by dying their hair black, going to tanning salons and dressing up like chicas [and they look stupider with this ever since...].

oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 01:09
For the person who said the thread is biased because it implies North Africans can pass, and there is no "None" option, it means that if you don't think they can pass anywhere you probably won't pick any option and will leave a comment saying so.. but most, if given the none option, would pick it so it doesn't answer the "where" part of the question.

Wilhelm
07-10-11, 03:26
It is clear what your agenda is Oreo. Enough of this bullshit. The post of Dean is 100% clear.

oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 06:17
It was a genuine question, no need to be defensive.

lebowsky
15-10-11, 07:04
Poll results hit you in the eye.

oreo_cookie
15-10-11, 07:21
Poll results hit you in the eye.

Indeed.. I didn't vote though.

Did you vote on the other polls too?

Rinconete
17-10-11, 16:32
Some North Africans seem to Europeans because many of them are descendants of Jews and Moors expelled from the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe. They also suffered invasions by Germanic peoples, such as the Vandals. In addition, the Berbers are Caucasian in origin. Although, now they have a lot of mixed Negroid.

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 19:53
Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

lebowsky
17-10-11, 19:55
Indeed.. I didn't vote though.

Did you vote on the other polls too?

Yes, I did.

lebowsky
17-10-11, 20:00
Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

You can bet on it.

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 23:24
I think it might be possible that some of the European looks to some North Africans is a result of the Reconquista and the expulsion of Muslims in Iberia, either of partial or full Iberian ancestry, to North Africa.

Cambrius (The Red)
17-10-11, 23:37
Poll results hit you in the eye.

Let's put it this way, IGNORANCE hits people in many places. What's your point? You have more than telegraphed your motivations.:useless:

No, N. Africans do not "overlap" with any Europeans.

Wilhelm
18-10-11, 00:03
Of course to anyone who lives in Spain this question is clearer than water. BUT ...there are people with strange agendas who want to twist facts.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-10-11, 00:17
Yes, it's called inveterate mendacity fueled by hatred and insecurity. Quite pathetic.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-10-11, 00:29
Well, according to your definition Penelope Cruz and Cristiano Ronaldo are native to Portugal. Their genome, as you put it, "...dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region ..." Even if Ronaldo great grandma was (possibly) black, he is dominantly 87.5% autosomaly Portuguese, therefore native. Isn't 87.5% dominant enough for you? What's your percentage?
Penelope is at least 75% Portuguese, 25% Gypsy. Oh wait, Gypsy live in Portugal for 600 years. How come they are not included in Portugal autosomal substratum? 600 years is not long enough? Where is your cut off for native, one thousand years?

See, whatever definition for "native" you will find, it will look only good on paper, but it will become vague and imprecise when thrown against complexity of today's societies.

PS. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have this conversation if Penelope and Cristiano were blond, right?

First of all, Penelope Cruz is not Portuguese, she's a Spanish citizen. Second, I realize that you tend to dismiss genetics as principal to what signifies who is indigenous to where. Most people do not see things your way, sorry.

The bottom line is that C. Ronaldo had, according to what I have read about his family background, a great grandmother who was part Black-African. That means he has VERY RECENT extra-European admixture which obviously does not pertain to the Portuguese / Iberian genome.

Gypsies are foreign to Spain and Portugal and originally hailed from India so how are they native to Iberia? What is native to the two countries is Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic, with a modest percentage of Germanic and Near-Eastern.

Of course, true to form, you had to include a rather puerile remark to the effect that the thinking would be different if Ronaldo and Cruz were blond. Absolutely ridiculous.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-10-11, 00:35
Can someone close this useless thread. What's next, which ethnicities overlap with polar bears?

sparkey
18-10-11, 00:52
Can someone close this useless thread. What's next, which ethnicities overlap with polar bears?

I'd say:
1) Norwegians
2) Icelanders
3) Swedes
4) Danes

Geographically it makes sense. :good_job:

sparkey
18-10-11, 00:57
But seriously, even if North Africans don't overlap with any European group, asking who they are least distant from is still a legitimate question.

Personally I think it's pretty much unanswerable, because there is too much variation in North Africa and not enough overlap anywhere in Europe, including Iberia, Sardinia, and other places that are geographically near. I haven't really kept up with this thread, but am I hitting on some of the Iberian users' frustrations?

LeBrok
18-10-11, 03:31
First of all, Penelope Cruz is not Portuguese, she's a Spanish citizen. Second, I realize that you tend to dismiss genetics as principal to what signifies who is indigenous to where. Most people do not see things your way, sorry.

Oh, I didn't know that you knew most people, and talked to them about your interpretation of indigenous definition?! Most people, lol, you have problem convincing most on Eupedia that what you're saying is true, and have nothing more than pure scientific agenda. The question is why you still bother. 2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right, no reputation gained, tens of people offended. Well, congratulations.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-10-11, 04:26
Oh, I didn't know that you knew most people, and talked to them about your interpretation of indigenous definition?! Most people, lol, you have problem convincing most on Eupedia that what you're saying is true, and have nothing more than pure scientific agenda. The question is why you still bother. 2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right, no reputation gained, tens of people offended. Well, congratulations.

I don't value your opinion or that of anyone else who thinks the way you do. Your criticisms are vacuous and self-serving. I will no longer respond to anything you post since it's a total waste of time to do so.

Atilla
18-10-11, 04:43
2368 posts mostly dedicated to "unbrowning" Iberia, and not even one sole convinced that you are right A man comes to believe in the end the lies he tells about himself to himself

Cambrius (The Red)
18-10-11, 04:52
A man comes to believe in the end the lies he tells about himself to himself

LOL! So says the intellectually confused wanderer. Not worth the time...

Atilla
18-10-11, 05:24
LOL! So says the intellectually confused wanderer. Not worth the time...


A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.

Knovas
18-10-11, 10:26
With all respects to all ethnic groups, but a person who is half or a quarter part Gipsy/black African according to the individuals mentioned, is not the best example to be considered native to Europe. Almost all Europeans have different levels of admixture, the thing is not to say you must be "pure" to be a native. I think we all know the difference between the typical admixture, and what the other cases imply.

Both Cristiano and Penelope aren't phenotypically representative of Iberia or wherever Southern European area you can think about. In my opinion Penelope fits better as a mixed Euro with South American, while Cristiano...well, the guy is too mixed, for sure he doesn't look Portuguese. Quite absurd to be discussing things like this.


A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.
Funny parrot. To be reasonable, you can go and repeat the same words in front of the mirror.

Knovas
18-10-11, 12:22
But seriously, even if North Africans don't overlap with any European group, asking who they are least distant from is still a legitimate question.

Personally I think it's pretty much unanswerable, because there is too much variation in North Africa and not enough overlap anywhere in Europe, including Iberia, Sardinia, and other places that are geographically near. I haven't really kept up with this thread, but am I hitting on some of the Iberian users' frustrations?
I personally don't have any problem with a question like this, and I gave my opinion and explained why I didn't vote. The problem with threads like this, is that are dishonestly used by individuals who haven't got an opinion, rather a lot of time to waste and have some fun with strange agendas.

I don't know what do you refer when talk about frustrations. I can say what it's really frustrating, is coming with the intention to have serious discussions, and again and again going with the same, usually by known individuals or others who mask their identity. Trust me, there's no other frustration but this.

For the rest, totally agree with you.

Rinconete
18-10-11, 16:16
Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

That's right. Not all the Moors that were expelled were Arab or Berber origin. Among them were mixed. Some of them had Iberian blood or were completely Iberian or Slavics.

lebowsky
18-10-11, 17:02
A lie has always a certain amount of weight with those who wish to believe it.

That's true. Many words are spoken when there's nothing to say.

Drac II
19-10-11, 03:22
That's right. Not all the Moors that were expelled were Arab or Berber origin. Among them were mixed. Some of them had Iberian blood or were completely Iberian or Slavics.

Not "some" but in fact most of them were Iberian converts to Islam, who had always made up most of the Muslim population in the Peninsula.

oreo_cookie
20-10-11, 10:01
Not "some" but in fact most of them were Iberian converts to Islam, who had always made up most of the Muslim population in the Peninsula.

So their expulsion DID bring Iberian ancestry into North Africa.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-11, 14:45
So their expulsion DID bring Iberian ancestry into North Africa.

It's generally accepted.

oreo_cookie
21-10-11, 03:35
Anyone else want to vote on this poll?

El Pipirisnais
21-10-11, 04:37
Nice topic, relly nice, i enjoy reading your posts a lot. Bye

Wilhelm
21-10-11, 16:16
Oreo Cookie, can I ask you a queston ? What is your ancestry ?

oreo_cookie
22-10-11, 22:32
Oreo Cookie, can I ask you a queston ? What is your ancestry ?

Mostly Portuguese.

Rinconete
23-10-11, 02:15
I don't know what is the objective of this thread. Much North Africans are Mediterranean whites although many of them are mixed.

Cambrius (The Red)
23-10-11, 04:47
These threads attract t-r-o-l-l-s and other useless characters.

LeBrok
23-10-11, 06:01
These threads attract t-r-o-l-l-s and other useless characters.

wow, admirable self-criticism. You've posted on this tread 18 times out of 105 posts. Only host oreo posted more.

Cambrius (The Red)
23-10-11, 17:11
wow, admirable self-criticism. You've posted on this tread 18 times out of 105 posts. Only host oreo posted more.

More valueless comments... Don't you have anything better to do than annoy people? If you dislike what I write or are in disagreement do me a great favor and pretend I do not exist.

Rinconete
23-10-11, 19:23
These threads attract t-r-o-l-l-s and other useless characters.

oreo_kockie is a *****? His themes are stranges.

Cambrius (The Red)
23-10-11, 19:38
oreo_kockie is a *****? His themes are stranges.

No he's not. What I was attempting to convey is that subject matter like what is found on this thread is a magnet for racists, serial misinformers and other disturbed personalities. Just take a look at what some people have written on here.

LeBrok
23-10-11, 21:13
oreo_kockie is a *****? His themes are stranges.


No he's not. What I was attempting to convey is that subject matter like what is found on this thread is a magnet for racists, serial misinformers and other disturbed personalities. Just take a look at what some people have written on here.

Here is an official warning to you two.
HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION DOESN'T GIVE YOU ANY RIGHTS TO OFFEND PEOPLE.
This warning toward few members from Iberia was repeated already few times. You wouldn't suppose that the admin and mods' patience is unlimited, would you?

LeBrok
23-10-11, 21:49
More valueless comments... Don't you have anything better to do than annoy people? If you dislike what I write or are in disagreement do me a great favor and pretend I do not exist.
Look in the mirror! Again and again you say things that exactly describe you and your actions. I was trying to point it to you few times already with humor or sarcasm. Now, you put me in a position to explain it to you more graphically.



Don't you have anything better to do than annoy people?

You posted 20 times here, mostly insulting and attacking. Isn't it annoying to others?


If you dislike what I write or are in disagreement do me a great favor and pretend I do not exist

Why don't you live by your advise and leave people, that find this thread interesting, alone.

In case you didn't notice, moderators don't care how much time you spent posting here, or if it's wasted time or not.
Just keep it clean and less hypocritical.

PS


I will no longer respond to anything you post since it's a total waste of time to do so.

Actions speak louder than words.

Knovas
23-10-11, 22:42
Some individuals who posted or voted here as well as in other threads, simply don't have any opinion. But if one prefers to ignore this FACT, that's another issue.

Approve my comment, and some of the posts will start to make sense.

Rinconete
23-10-11, 22:57
Here is an official warning to you two.
HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION DOESN'T GIVE YOU ANY RIGHTS TO OFFEND PEOPLE.
This warning toward few members from Iberia was repeated already few times. You wouldn't suppose that the admin and mods' patience is unlimited, would you?

Why do you threat me? Whom have I offended?

oreo_cookie
24-10-11, 23:22
I don't get why people can't just answer a thread calmly without everything erupting into argument.

oreo_cookie
01-11-11, 00:42
Tunisians

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4113/4835100250_96224bde91_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/4834491599_8a50ee1e24_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4834491687_53b2e9a78d_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/4835101212_f45b53a1f7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4835101362_3a6147bc17_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/4834492983_15225f4273_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/4835101796_467c959203_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/4834493159_8b6aae9b83_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/4834493379_d360d70bbf_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4835102650_fa2b51dae3_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4834493991_ec5416c09e_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/4835103262_117844dfe3_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/4834494573_7f4fb2f195_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/4835104000_a42bc9ff98_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/4835104272_4b9d190e4e_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/4835105170_68627cbaa8_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/4834496093_eb87cfd20f_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/3309319540_5d87712038_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3309319904_5cf9818d51_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3408/3309320436_2348e8ffa4_m.jpg

Franco
09-11-11, 00:50
The most north African looking country is Portugal. Take for instance Cristiano Ronaldo, Mourinho, Saramago, Jose Socrates, Durao Barroso, etc. Take into account that some of them are politicians, so one could assume they belong to the finest and least unmixed families in Portugal, but all of them have invariably certain North African air. Next to it I would say Spain. This purely subjective impression is coherent with genetic data about North African admixture in Europe. I'm not saying the Portuguese look North African in absolute terms by the way, just that it's much more difficult to point out a North African person from a crowd in Portugal than let's say the same North African but put among Swedes. Cheers.

Knovas
09-11-11, 10:43
It's the 10th time more or less this must be said: Cristiano Ronaldo is NOT a native Portuguese, read back. And, at least, both Socrates and Mourinho (even being this one a totally insane) don't look North Africans, they look Med to me.

By the way, North African admixture is not only present in Iberia, and it's too low. The Western side of Iberia, including Galicia, has more, but there's also substantial Northern European influence there...then, it's not enough to have much repercusion in phenotype.

But okay, if the example is Swedes...obviously they are less similar. I don't think it's useful such comparison. No overlap in average.

Kardu
09-11-11, 11:18
Maybe 1 out of 100(or more) North African can pass for Mediterranean European. Usually I immediately distinguish them as Berber/Arab.

Knovas
09-11-11, 11:42
Yes Kardu. Many times has been stated, that in both Spain and Portugal there's a lot of North African inmigration today, and they are easy to distinguish from natives.

For this reason, I don't see the point comparing Swedes and Spaniards/Portuguese with North Africans...it proves nothing. Most Scandinavians have Mongoloid admixture, and they don't look Asian in average.

Kardu
09-11-11, 11:49
Yes Kardu. Many times has been stated, that in both Spain and Portugal there's a lot of North African inmigration today, and they are easy to distinguish from natives.

For this reason, I don't see the point comparing Swedes and Spaniards/Portuguese with North Africans...it proves nothing. Most Scandinavians have Mongoloid admixture, and they don't look Asian in average.Totally agree

Canek
29-11-11, 14:49
I choose Spain and Cypruss. Good thread oreo_cookie.

Carlos
30-11-11, 00:50
The morphology or appearance in the north of Africa repeats itself, I want to say that it gives the sensation that perhaps they are groups with a major grade of "purity" and there are faces or bodies that are as you trace, thing that does not go on to the same grade in countries of the European Mediterranean where there is slightly any more of variety of phenotype, more diversity of faces and nevertheless the bereberes for example observe big quantity of archetypes multiplied, almost equal, identical almost or almenos is the sensation.

jurrian
30-11-11, 10:37
Iberia and Sicily I think. PS: oreo_cookie's thread are great... I don't know why some people is frightened about talking about the similiraties of africans/near-easterner and south europeans. Regards.

Kardu
30-11-11, 11:50
Iberia and Sicily I think. PS: oreo_cookie's thread are great... I don't know why some people is frightened about talking about the similiraties of africans/near-easterner and south europeans. Regards.It's mostly because that people who usually talk about the similiraties of africans/near-easterner and south europeans clearly have agenda behind it.

Carlos
30-11-11, 15:39
Iberia and Sicily I think.

In the whites of the eyes.

Is to split the breast of laughter.

oreo_cookie
27-02-12, 20:12
Anyone else have a thought for this?

Carlos
27-02-12, 23:00
Broadly speaking it is an impossible subject, perhaps with special and exceptional cases could.

julia90
27-02-12, 23:39
A few (those not admixed with subsaharian africans), can pass in some areas of southern europe... but the most part are immediately spotted in southern europe as too much exotic

wormhole
13-08-12, 06:39
Malta, Spain, Portugal, and possibly Sicily although I did not vote for it.

Mainland Italy is definetley out of the question.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-01-13, 18:30
Malta, Sicily, Southern Italy and Cyprus. Some of the examples might pass in the Canaries, but NATIVES from there are not genetically European / Spaniard.

julia90
20-01-13, 21:18
Malta, Sicily, Southern Italy and Cyprus. Some of the examples might pass in the Canaries, but NATIVES from there are not genetically European / Spaniard.

well i don't think so, before southern italy and cyprus the whole iberians peninsula has more genes labelled on genetic researches as "north africans", give cesar what is to cesar, and not something that in us is smaller than among your kind, our "exotic" genes are west asian not northern africans.

even if i consider pure berberid look, europoid, so you can sleep well,.. just kidding lol

Kardu
21-01-13, 01:13
To confuse an Arab or a Berber with an average Spaniard one should be blind/extremely biased/have no idea about people's looks...

Cambrius (The Red)
21-01-13, 04:17
To confuse an Arab or a Berber with an average Spaniard one should be blind/extremely biased/have no idea about people's looks...

No kidding. The very notion is ludicrous...

Something else to consider. The small number of Berber markers in Iberia are very ancient (Mesolithic or Neolithic) and have no impact on the phenotypes of AUTOCHTHONOUS Iberians. End of story. This is a useless thread that needs to be closed...incredible.

Cambrius (The Red)
21-01-13, 04:19
well i don't think so, before southern italy and cyprus the whole iberians peninsula has more genes labelled on genetic researches as "north africans", give cesar what is to cesar, and not something that in us is smaller than among your kind, our "exotic" genes are west asian not northern africans.

even if i consider pure berberid look, europoid, so you can sleep well,.. just kidding lol

Check the latest autosomal DNA statistics.

MOESAN
21-01-13, 22:40
I think a lot of 'arabic' and 'berberic' North African individuals AND AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL could pass as southern Europeans, as Spanyards, Portugueses, South Italian, Cypriots, Greeks, even French people (a part of these populations) - as a group, it is IMpossible - but not all the North African people could pass as S-European: some of them are very different, even if "caucasoid" at first sight, and some of them, because of their Subsaharian slight influences, cannot do it at all...
some of them show even an apparently and partially "asiaticoid look" where indeed I believe some 'khoisan' old heritage could be involved - and I add THERE ARE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE REGIONAL POPULATION OF MAGHREB

Kardu
21-01-13, 23:09
I think a lot of 'arabic' and 'berberic' North African individuals AND AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL could pass as southern Europeans, as Spanyards, Portugueses, South Italian, Cypriots, Greeks, even French people (a part of these populations) - as a group, it is IMpossible - but not all the North African people could pass as S-European: some of them are very different, even if "caucasoid" at first sight, and some of them, because of their Subsaharian slight influences, cannot do it at all...
some of them show even an apparently and partially "asiaticoid look" where indeed I believe some 'khoisan' old heritage could be involved - and I add THERE ARE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE REGIONAL POPULATION OF MAGHREB
I still have to meet at least one of those... I used to live in the Netherlands for several years and I've seen hundreds if not thousands of Moroccans, Algerians and other NA people there. Not a single one could pass for a Spaniard or Italian etc.

Cambrius (The Red)
22-01-13, 05:08
I think a lot of 'arabic' and 'berberic' North African individuals AND AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL could pass as southern Europeans, as Spanyards, Portugueses, South Italian, Cypriots, Greeks, even French people (a part of these populations) - as a group, it is IMpossible - but not all the North African people could pass as S-European: some of them are very different, even if "caucasoid" at first sight, and some of them, because of their Subsaharian slight influences, cannot do it at all...
some of them show even an apparently and partially "asiaticoid look" where indeed I believe some 'khoisan' old heritage could be involved - and I add THERE ARE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE REGIONAL POPULATION OF MAGHREB

I have seen exceedingly few who could "pass" in France, Portugal and Spain. Malta and Cyprus would be where SOME could blend in.

julia90
22-01-13, 19:07
well, among nortehrn africans those more similar to souther europeans of mediterranean look are tunisians, algerians and maybe libians, absolutely not moroccans or egyptians, wixh have more subsaharian admixture sometimes i speculate about 25%-30% based on their look. But those who have immigrated to italy are only moroccans and egyptians (those who look less similar to mediterranean european); and few tunisians which indeed in some cases can pass as locals.

there area exceptions among moroccans and egyptians that in some remote parts can be unmixed with subsaharians; for example the half italian ahalf egyptian footballplayer el sharawy looks like a local, i wouldn't guess him as not typical italian

Kardu
22-01-13, 19:26
there area exceptions among moroccans and egyptians that in some remote parts can be unmixed with subsaharians; for example the half italian ahalf egyptian footballplayer el sharawy looks like a local, i wouldn't guess him as not typical italian

Not a good example :) His mother is Italian...

Eldritch
17-02-13, 16:39
Nowhere is my answer.

kamani
17-02-13, 19:30
The question is so broad that it's nonsense, north-africans are genetically very different from each-other, even within the same country.

adamo
13-04-13, 01:03
Certain parts of Portugal, Spain, southern Italy, Sicily, Greece a lot more I would say, Cyprus, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, even Sardinia possiblypossibly

adamo
13-04-13, 01:06
Even if they are from different subclades, many North Africans have the same one or two subclades of haplogroup E, E-M81 may have entered southern Iberia (Spain,Portugal) from morocco and some E may ave migrated to Sicily via Tunisia, for example.

adamo
13-04-13, 23:14
Greece is unfairly underrated in this poll considering the highest frequencies of e in Europe is in Greece and also Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia, Serbia has 20-30% E.

julia90
26-05-13, 10:31
Some of them can pass in Malta, Canary Islanda, many parts of iberia with up to 7% north african genes; i mean busquets, simao sabrosa; helder Barbosa; marc bartra, arbeloa; could pass as north african; at least if i saw them here; they are a bit exhotic for my region and most of suthern italy (except some small areas of sicily); those influenced north african iberian men are really hot, mysterious and dark; they would have great success with our local girls, we haven't that kind of beauty.
You know the sex appeal of saracen hot moor drop of phenotypes like those footballplayers is strong, to add that they are south euros and not north africans adds to the gloomy mysteriousnes of them

Nobody1
26-05-13, 23:07
I would think it all depends on what North Africans we are reffering to,

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians while the ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants, the fellaheen, are merely well marked varieties of this Mediterranean race.

North Africa is mostly Mediterranean [Caucasoid sub-race] and Orientalid [Mediterranean sub-type]

http://i.imgur.com/aPHHW.jpg


J Czekanowski - classified: Sicilians, South Spaniards and South Portuguese as Mediterranean/Orientalid

http://imageshack.us/a/img29/6194/jcze.png


The Mediterranean North Africans would pass in all other Mediterranean areas, the Orientalid North Africans only in Sicily, Andalusia and Southern Portugal;
Which is probably a remnant of the Islamic Conquests (Moors & Saracens) of the Middle Ages.

Sicilian - Mediterranean / Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png

Spaniard (Galicia) - Mediterranean / Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/6187/spaniard1.png

Portuguese (Beira Alta - North Portugal) - Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img824/8021/portuguese1.png

julia90
27-05-13, 00:15
I agree those spaniards i said have something really noteceable of north african. The question is how many, what percentage of spaniards have that look? And in wich zone (apart obviously canary) is found the highest?

Alan
27-05-13, 01:16
BTW, Egyptians have MUCH more West Asian admixture than other North Africans.

http://eupedia.com/images/content/West-Asian-admixture.gif


I doubt that its "much" more. More like 2-6% more than Libyans or Tunisians.

albanopolis
27-05-13, 03:21
I would say about 20% of north africans can perfectly fit in Ballkans, Hungary, Southern Italy. I have seen them in New York. 20% of them are lighter than Ballkans. Thre are a minority of greeks, albanians, Italians that are darker than dravidian Indians. North africans were originaly a caucasian, straight hair race, until they mixed with arabs and negroids. There is a huge amount of negroid blod among North africans.

julia90
27-05-13, 13:46
I doubt we are darker skinned than dravidians. Yes someone like zidane could pass in italy, but also in germany and all central europe.
i'm talking about simao sabrosa people that you can't find in central and northern italy; and only in some pockets of southern italy (quagliarella fit this description too); but in iberia they seem more feequent also in mainland and northrern iberia. As the grnetics say.

Kardu
27-05-13, 14:46
I doubt we are darker skinned than dravidians. Yes someone like zidane could pass in italy, but also in germany and all central europe.
i'm talking about simao sabrosa people that you can't find in central and northern italy; and only in some pockets of southern italy (quagliarella fit this description too); but in iberia they seem more feequent also in mainland and northrern iberia. As the grnetics say.
Pass perhaps.. Typical - certainly not. Anyway the case of Kabyles is exceptional.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-05-13, 21:21
Another useless thread...

Maybe 20% of North Africans with some Euro could traits pass in Malta and Cyprus. Practically all would stand out in Western Europe. Some of the Western Europeans mentioned are not full blooded. Simao Sabrosa is part Middle Eastern Jew on his father's side (although he personally has divulged little about his ancestry). Obviously not indigenous Iberian.

Moreover, the maps posted are incorrect and virtually useless.

Looks like Julia gets her kicks by exaggerating Iberian phenotypes.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-05-13, 21:26
To confuse an Arab or a Berber with an average Spaniard one should be blind/extremely biased/have no idea about people's looks...

Some people are extremely biased. How about those people who try to pass half casts as native. Pathetic.

Eldritch
28-05-13, 21:28
Where are you getting that info about Simao Sabrosa?
Online i can't find anything nor there's any hint to point in that direction.

A source is welcome.

Nobody1
28-05-13, 21:55
I would think it all depends on what North Africans we are reffering to,

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians while the ancient Egyptians and their modern descendants, the fellaheen, are merely well marked varieties of this Mediterranean race.

North Africa is mostly Mediterranean [Caucasoid sub-race] and Orientalid [Mediterranean sub-type]

http://i.imgur.com/aPHHW.jpg


J Czekanowski - classified: Sicilians, South Spaniards and South Portuguese as Mediterranean/Orientalid

http://imageshack.us/a/img29/6194/jcze.png


The Mediterranean North Africans would pass in all other Mediterranean areas, the Orientalid North Africans only in Sicily, Andalusia and Southern Portugal;
Which is probably a remnant of the Islamic Conquests (Moors & Saracens) of the Middle Ages.

Sicilian - Mediterranean / Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png

Spaniard (Galicia) - Mediterranean / Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/6187/spaniard1.png

Portuguese (Beira Alta - North Portugal) - Carleton S. Coon Plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img824/8021/portuguese1.png


Also Important to note is the Skull [Cephalic] Index;
Berbers and Arabs [Mediterranean/Orientalid (Caucasoid) sub-race] are extremely Dolichocephalic

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TCqY2a0WzNU/UKJWs0X2z-I/AAAAAAAAARM/0HIy-vjK4-8/s1600/61639414.jpg


William Z. Ripley - plates (Berbers from Tunis) - Medit./Orientalid - skull index 69' & 72'
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/7225/tunisians.png

adamo
28-05-13, 23:12
You can find a rare few in parts of Iberia, southern Italy (Sicily in particular) even Sardinia, certainly Greece/Albania/Bulgaria region and some on Cyprus, some Serbs too probably, the difference is that these North African paternal E's mixed in heavily with European H,U and other European mtdna groups, whereas North Africans have much more L3,L2 ( more North African mtdna groups.)

julia90
28-05-13, 23:36
Whist about your famous actor Mario Casas? This look is absent in italy north of latium. While he could pass ad southern italian maybe. I see in him some north african traits

seeing Paso Adelante some years ago on tv i remember the actor Pablo Puyol.. he could never pass in central or northern italy or central europe, he's very handsone of i may say, he has softer light north african influence is a sensation i have when i
see him

also the footballplayer Daniel Pacheco, has handsome traits, wich reminds me of the typology of goodlooking north africans, like lybians and tunisians

Carlos
06-08-13, 05:40
Whist about your famous actor Mario Casas? This look is absent in italy north of latium. While he could pass ad southern italian maybe. I see in him some north african traits

seeing Paso Adelante some years ago on tv i remember the actor Pablo Puyol.. he could never pass in central or northern italy or central europe, he's very handsone of i may say, he has softer light north african influence is a sensation i have when i
see him

also the footballplayer Daniel Pacheco, has handsome traits, wich reminds me of the typology of goodlooking north africans, like lybians and tunisians

So is the other Daniel Pacheco could pass for Tunisian in Tunisia. lol

Sybilla
08-08-13, 10:49
I think as a group they can pass nowhere. As singles, they can maybe pass in Spain, especially in southern Spain. But only the more mediterranean ones.

Drac II
08-08-13, 22:16
Whist about your famous actor Mario Casas? This look is absent in italy north of latium. While he could pass ad southern italian maybe. I see in him some north african traits

seeing Paso Adelante some years ago on tv i remember the actor Pablo Puyol.. he could never pass in central or northern italy or central europe, he's very handsone of i may say, he has softer light north african influence is a sensation i have when i
see him

also the footballplayer Daniel Pacheco, has handsome traits, wich reminds me of the typology of goodlooking north africans, like lybians and tunisians

Sure, sure, keep on telling yourself those fairy tales. In the meantime, have a good long look at these large groups of Northern Italians as a nice reality check:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/

http://racialreality.110mb.com/leganord.html

Oh, and let's not forget these large numbers of Central Italians:

http://www.google.com/search?q=calcio+storico&complete=0&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Z_wDUrSJK4KiyAG4i4DYBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=929&sei=a_wDUsetFMiWyAH-vICQCA

Drac II
08-08-13, 23:13
Also Important to note is the Skull [Cephalic] Index;
Berbers and Arabs [Mediterranean/Orientalid (Caucasoid) sub-race] are extremely Dolichocephalic

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TCqY2a0WzNU/UKJWs0X2z-I/AAAAAAAAARM/0HIy-vjK4-8/s1600/61639414.jpg


William Z. Ripley - plates (Berbers from Tunis) - Medit./Orientalid - skull index 69' & 72'
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/7225/tunisians.png

The usual mistaken assumptions, manipulations and careful selection of what to quote.

Nordics are also strongly dolichocephalic. I guess that makes them similar-looking to North Africans? Hmmm... No, don't think so. Craniometrics is one thing, phenotype/pigmentation another one altogether. Having similar skull shapes does not mean you will look alike. Phenotype and pigmentation are much more complex than that and also depend on such things as diet, sexual selection and climatic adaptation.


"Orientalids", you say? Funny, because hardly any serious anthropologist sees any "Orientalids" in Spain (you carefully chose one of the few, and even he places the majority of them in Portugal), they keep pointing out that the majority of Spain is "classic", "Western" and/or "Atlanto" Mediterraneans. The racial type who fits the Near Eastern/Oriental facial & nasal traits description so well that such features even form part of its very definition are in fact the Dinarics, which are not common in Spain but in Italy:


Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor.


Which is probably partly a remnant of the large Near Eastern slave and immigrant population in Roman Italy.

Dinaric plates:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/subraces_files/p38f2.jpg\

http://i12.tinypic.com/311xwtc.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img812/3808/dinaric2.png

Nobody1
08-08-13, 23:29
"Orientalids", you say? Funny, because hardly any serious anthropologist sees any "Orientalids" in Spain (you carefully chose one of the few, and even he places the majority of them in Portugal), they keep pointing out that the majority of Spain is "classic", "Western" and/or "Atlanto" Mediterraneans. The racial type who fits the Near Eastern/Oriental facial & nasal traits description so well that such features even form part of its very definition are in fact the Dinarics, which are not common in Spain but in Italy:

Coon -
The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.
Spaniards measured in Madrid have head dimensions comparable to those of Yemenite Arabs, Oriental Jews, and Kabyles.


Funny, the Western or Atlanto-Mediterranean type is mostly ascribed to Mediterranid North Italians - not Spaniards;

Coon -
among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

Piedmont - North Italy / Atlanto-Mediterranean - Coon plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/1631/grra.png

Coon - Races of Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/racesofeurope.htm


Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor.

Yes, the Dinaric (Caucasoid) sub-race ranges all across Europe;
from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians - and all the way through Anatolia and Syria;
But what does that have to do with North Africa?

---

Apart from all of that; where do i even associate anything with Spain in post #155 or post #146;
Is your paranoia getting the best of you again;

Drac II
08-08-13, 23:49
Coon -
The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.
Spaniards measured in Madrid have head dimensions comparable to those of Yemenite Arabs, Oriental Jews, and Kabyles.

Once again, craniometrics. Not phenotype/pigmentation. "Alpines" are often called "Asiatic" in the literature because they are brachycephalic. Does that mean they look "Asiatic"?



Funny, the Western or Atlanto-Mediterranean type is mostly ascribed to Mediterranid North Italians - not Spaniards;

Coon -
among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

Piedmont - North Italy / Atlanto-Mediterranean - Coon plates
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/1631/grra.png

Coon - Races of Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/racesofeurope.htm

Funny, because Coon also assigns this same "Atlanto-Mediterranean" race to the majority of North Africa:

Atlanto-Mediterranean: The tall, straight-nosed Mediterranean, not mesocephalic, as Deniker erroneously stated, but strongly dolichocephalic. Today this race forms the principal element in the population of North Africa, and is strong in Iraq, Palestine, parts of Arabia, and the eastern Balkans;

I guess that such a simplistic (and generally erroneous) view of craniometrics/phenotype/pigmentation settles the question of this poll once and for all: North Italy is indeed the place in Europe where North Africans can generally pass :laughing:


Yes, the Dinaric (Caucasoid) sub-race ranges all across Europe;
from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians - and all the way through Anatolia and Syria;
But what does that have to do with North Africa?


As much as "Orientalids" (a Near Eastern type) have to do with it.

Nobody1
09-08-13, 00:09
Once again, craniometrics. Not phenotype/pigmentation. "Alpines" are often called "Asiatic" in the literature because they are brachycephalic. Does that mean they look "Asiatic"?

Asiatic as in Altaic/Mongoloid - No
Asiatic strain as in Uralic/Lappanoid - Yes



Funny, because Coon also assigns this same "Atlanto-Mediterranean" race to the majority of North Africa: Atlanto-Mediterranean: The tall, straight-nosed Mediterranean, not mesocephalic, as Deniker erroneously stated, but strongly dolichocephalic. Today this race forms the principal element in the population of North Africa, and is strong in Iraq, Palestine, parts of Arabia, and the eastern Balkans;

Exactly;
The entire Merditerranean (Caucasoid) sub-race is in fact (big surprise) all around the Mediterranean;
South Europe, North Africa, Near East;

That includes also the Atlantic types as well as the Orientalid types;

And the Medit.-Atlantic type as well as the similar Medit.-Pontic type is also all across Central and East Europe;

(from an older post)
N. Cheboksarov - Indiana University: issues 17-19 (1961)
The Atlantic type, widely spread in Central Europe, in the morphological sense is transitional between the mesocephlas of Southern and Northern Europe; that is, between the Mediterranean in the narrow sense of the word and the northern races. The relatively dark pigmentation brings the representatives of the Atlantic type close to the Mediterranean elements of Spain and southern Italy; the greater stature relates them to the Nordics of Scandinavia. But this kind of link likewise exists in Eastern Europe: here it is known under the name of “Eastern Great-Russian” (Chepurkovsky) or “North-Pontic” complex (Bunak), which prevails among the Russians of the Kuybyshev and Voronezh districts, and also among the Mordvi-Mokshi.

Carlos
09-08-13, 01:47
I think as a group they can pass nowhere. As singles, they can maybe pass in Spain, especially in southern Spain. But only the more mediterranean ones.


Southern Spain Southern Spain ohhhh, look you take someone from southern Spain, north of Spain in central Spain east and west and you would not know that from where is everyone


What about southern Spain?


All that happens is that we are looking and we look like ourselves.

errantbit
03-10-13, 21:12
Italy.At first sight you may not notice it,but you get to see a lot of people with african traits there.For example:Samuele Riva (milanese top model) http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4962/101507jg2.jpg

Kardu
05-10-13, 09:26
Samuele Riva looks like North African?! :) Have ever met a real North African?

errantbit
05-10-13, 12:56
Does he looks more european than african to you?

Nobody1
05-10-13, 17:13
Does he looks more european than african to you?

Africans that look like Samuele Riva are def. very European looking - being of the Caucasoid races

Samuele Riva is very South European - Medit./Dinaric with minor Noric/Nordid strainhttp://www.hola.com/imagenes/biografias/samuele-riva/93068-samuele-riva-fotos-portada-bio-1.jpg


There are a lot of Africans that look like him because there are a lot of Caucasoid races in Africa - especially in the North;

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians

errantbit
05-10-13, 17:48
i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

errantbit
05-10-13, 18:35
http://www.bellazon.com/main/uploads/post-2932-1166485785.jpgI refuse to belive i'm the only one who notice this guy have clear sub-saharian traits (look at his mouth and nose).Shouldn't be a surprise as many black slaves were brought to the italic peninsula for centuries at the times of roman empire.It's not that unusual to see people like him in Italy.

Yaan
05-10-13, 20:16
Some North Africans(the one without Arab blood,called Berbers) can sometimes,really rare pass in most of South and South East Europe, but ofc here we speak about a very tiny minority. And again I see us Bulgarians here, so we can pass as Africans, Turks, Levant etc. Some people here need to grow up and learn about nations, at least the nations in Europe. On general Bulgarians have as much to do with North Africans as Dutch have to do with North Africans,as with Levant similarity is overrated in Internet. The only non European people with which we can say we Bulgarians share are the Turks, and then only with some and then for the same reason some Swedish share with White Americans.
I will kindly ask Americans, Iberians and West Europeans to stop use the word Bulgarians because u have either not seen one or u have seen the Gypsies. I do not base my opinion of Americans based on Black or of Iberians based on Arabs, so u should have the manhood to do the same. There are no Bulgarian posters here so mambo jambo was tolerated but now I am here!

Kardu
06-10-13, 16:09
errantbit (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48125-errantbit) Berbers have Vandal blood. And I live in Europe for the last 20 years.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 16:51
errantbit (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48125-errantbit) Berbers have Vandal blood. And I live in Europe for the last 20 years.

Of course they have Vandal blood they also have Greco-Roman blood;

But the Berbers themselves are of the Caucsoid races (mostly Mediterranid);
Berbers are known as Libyans in ancient sources;

Nobody1
06-10-13, 16:58
i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

Those are just false assumptions in both cases;

And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;

Heres a good link for you;

W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007
http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf

Black slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;

If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;
But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;

Carleton Coon -
Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

Angela
06-10-13, 18:56
After reviewing all the pertinent anthropological sources, and giving the matter much thought, it is my considered opinion that the traits most exhibited by Samuele Riva are...HOT-OID. :smile:

Nobody1
06-10-13, 19:19
i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

Those are just false assumptions in both cases;

And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;

Heres a good link for you;

W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007
http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf (http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf)

Black slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;

If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;
But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;

Carleton Coon -
Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 19:20
After reviewing all the pertinent anthropological sources, and giving the matter much thought, it is my considered opinion that the traits most exhibited by Samuele Riva are...HOT-OID. :smile:

Your not being objective;

errantbit
06-10-13, 21:57
Those are just false assumptions in both cases;And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;Heres a good link for you;W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf (http://www.princeton.edu/%7Epswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf)Black slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;Carleton Coon - Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

Thanks for the link but your source doesn't dispute anything i said.

http://www.ucd.ie/cai/classics-ireland/1996/Madden96.html

Then again anyone with eyes can see that Samuele Riva has clear sub-saharian traits.I don't see the point in denying such evidence.

Angela
06-10-13, 22:07
Sadly, my attempt at irony and humor seems to have failed...

My point was that in the real world this would have been a ridiculous discussion...all anyone would see is a good looking man.

As to bias...I admit it...I am extremely biased in favor of attractive people...it's very shallow of me, but there it is. :ashamed2:

Seriously, you don't have to be an Italian woman to find Italian men...Mediterranean looking men in general, attractive. Trust me, it's quite common. :smile:

errantbit
06-10-13, 22:28
No one is disputing his 'handsomeness',he's a top model after all.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 23:51
Thanks for the link but your source doesn't dispute anything i said.

In fact - both sources clearly dispute what you said;
And the source you posted is awesome; even more informative and detailed than the Scheidel/Stanford book i posted;

But i recommend both;

J. Madden - Uni. College Galway
http://www.ucd.ie/cai/classics-ireland/1996/Madden96.html

W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni.
http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf

Nobody1
06-10-13, 23:52
Sadly, my attempt at irony and humor seems to have failed...

No it didnt;

errantbit
07-10-13, 00:40
"The Greeks and Romans bought ethiopian slaves, some to be used as sex slaves for both men and women, and others to be used as fiels workers and in times of war as army support." (Hugh Thomas, "The slave trade- The story of the atlantic slave trade." p.27)

Nobody1
07-10-13, 01:24
"The Greeks and Romans bought ethiopian slaves, some to be used as sex slaves for both men and women, and others to be used as fiels workers and in times of war as army support." (Hugh Thomas, "The slave trade- The story of the atlantic slave trade." p.27)

This passage doesnt even exist; Not on p.27 and not in the entire book;

There were however (acc. to W.Scheidel) Black slaves from Somalia existed in the Roman Empire but extremely rare;

errantbit
07-10-13, 01:37
This passage doesnt even exist; Not on p.27 and not in the entire book; http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/denial_cat.jpg

Nobody1
07-10-13, 01:40
Purchase it and read it;
Especially p.27;

Kardu
07-10-13, 17:07
Of course they have Vandal blood they also have Greco-Roman blood;

But the Berbers themselves are of the Caucsoid races (mostly Mediterranid);
Berbers are known as Libyans in ancient sources;
The fact that they are Caucasoid doesnt mean that you can't distinguish them among Spanish or Portuguese.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 14:52
IMHO, the answer to the poll is nowhere.
I agree, IMHO lebanese have more chance to pass individual in south Europe than north africans, some berbers do though.