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Alan
01-10-11, 01:36
Dude, no way it's possible that there's so much of G2 and R2 from the Neolithic farmers and only in the upper classes in India!

You (as an Assyrian or maybe Armenian/Turkish?) just can't live with the fact that Kurds are Iranic and are native to Kurdistan. Somehow you printed in your mind that Kurds are 'immigrants' from Central Asia who killed the natives. That they are the same as Turks, who are also from Central Asia. And that the Turks can have Kurdish land and have the right to take it because Kurds are the same 'immigrants' from Central Asia as Turks. Or that Kurds live on the Assyrian and Armenian lands, lol. Keep dreaming!


please Goga dont start with this accusions again. There might be Assyrians who think so, and I know some of them but Cobol didnt say something like that in contrary he always supported the idea that Kurds are native.

Humanist
04-10-11, 10:50
You (as an Assyrian or maybe Armenian/Turkish?) just can't live with the fact that Kurds are Iranic and are native to Kurdistan

How is Cobol19 "maybe Armenian/Turkish?" The average McDonald green spot on the map for 7 Assyrians is NE Iraq*. See the first attachment. The second attachment contains the central point of the McDonald green (average) spots for only those individuals who received the new McDonald analysis (May-present):

Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

*Assyrian Churches Represented
Chaldean Catholic = 2.5 (Points H, C, and B*)
"Nestorian" = 2.5 (Points F, I, and B*)
Syriac Orthodox = 1 (Point G)
Ancient Church of East = 1 (Point E)

*"B" is half Chaldean Catholic, half "Nestorian."

Goga
05-10-11, 22:23
How is Cobol19 "maybe Armenian/Turkish?" The average McDonald green spot on the map for 7 Assyrians is NE Iraq*. See the first attachment. The second attachment contains the central point of the McDonald green (average) spots for only those individuals who received the new McDonald analysis (May-present):

Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

*Assyrian Churches Represented
Chaldean Catholic = 2.5 (Points H, C, and B*)
"Nestorian" = 2.5 (Points F, I, and B*)
Syriac Orthodox = 1 (Point G)
Ancient Church of East = 1 (Point E)

*"B" is half Chaldean Catholic, half "Nestorian."Not even around Mosul, lol? I do only see red spots in the heart of Kurdistan. Since when is Colemêrg (Hakkari) Assyria?

But I mean that some folks on the net are actually ethnic Turks or Armenians that present themselves as Assyrians only to attack Kurds and to spread some dirty propaganda against the Kurds.

Btw, Assyrians speak an Semitic language. And as far as I know Semitic languages are not from Kurdistan. It seems that Assyrians have got some kind of identity crisis. Actually they are Semitic but they think they aren't. ACNIENT Assyrians were not from the Zagros mountains, but they were from the Levant and South Mesopotamia.

sparkey
05-10-11, 22:41
Not even around Mosul, lol? I do only see red spots in the heart of Kurdistan. Since when is Colemêrg (Hakkari) Assyria?

Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?


Btw, Assyrians speak an Semitic language. And as far as I know Semitic languages are not from Kurdistan. It seems that Assyrians have got some kind of identity crisis. Actually they are Semitic but they think they aren't. ACNIENT Assyrians were not from the Zagros mountains, but they were from the Levant and South Mesopotamia.

I've never heard Assyrians claim that they aren't Semitic. A lot are quite passionate about being distanced from other Semites, namely Arabs. Either way, the first time Assyrians formed as a coherent ethnicity they were speaking Akkadian, which is Semetic but not Levantine, and they were living in Mesopotamia but not South Mesopotamia. So although they likely have genetic input from these regions, it's best to just say that ancient Assyrians were from Mesopotamia.

Goga
05-10-11, 22:57
Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?

I've never heard Assyrians claim that they aren't Semitic. A lot are quite passionate about being distanced from other Semites, namely Arabs. Either way, the first time Assyrians formed as a coherent ethnicity they were speaking Akkadian, which is Semetic but not Levantine, and they were living in Mesopotamia but not South Mesopotamia. So although they likely have genetic input from these regions, it's best to just say that ancient Assyrians were from Mesopotamia.
Colemêrg is situated in the centrum and heart of Kurdistan. It's a very mountainous area. I don't think that Assyrians are from the mountains! Colemêrg was NEVER Assyrian homeland!
As far as I know Kurdish mountains always has been inhabited by the (proto-)Kurds. I've got the feeling that some folks just try to steal Kurdish history and the achievements of Kurdish ancestors.

Nineveh was the heart and centrum of the ancient Assyrian homeland. Assyrians are from central Iraq and are very close to Iraqi Arabs.

Assyrians in diaspora are very mixed with other people, so I don't think that their modern DNA represent the DNA of the ancient Assyrians. Modern Assyrians in DIASPORA are mixed with Turks, Arabs, Armenians and Kurds!

Once again, I don't think that ancient Assyrians had the same DNA as the modern so called Assyrians. Ancient Assyrians were descendant of the Akkadians and Akkadians lived in southern parts of Mesopotamia!

Modern descendants of these Akkadians are actually Iraqi Arabs and unmixed Assyrians.

Goga
05-10-11, 23:18
Modern Assyrians in DIASPORA are not very representative for the ancient Assyrians! I mean most of them in Kurdistan are culturally Kurdish/Iranic, they're using Kurdish/Iranic music on their wedding parties for instance.

Kurds in Turkmenistan are not the same as Kurds in Kurdistan. The same thing applies to the modern Assyrians.


I think that they deserve some place for themselves, though. Somewhere around Mosul. But is very silly to claim places like Colemerg or other Kurdish palces.

Alan
06-10-11, 00:47
Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?


I would be careful with such connections. Hakkari is a Kurdish tribe living in that area. Just because a Term has a similar word it doesent mean it has the same origin. Best example Diyarbekir. in Turkish Diyarbakir means "Land of Cupper" but the real name Diyarbekir comes from Diyarê bekir and means "land of bekir".

@Goga Assyrians are mostly native. Just because their language has a different origin doesnt mean they arent native.

Goga
06-10-11, 01:06
@Goga Assyrians are mostly native. Just because their language has a different origin doesnt mean they arent native.
Of course they're genetically native, because they're mixed with the natives. They have been living in Kurdistan for at least 3000 years.

They have the same right to live in Kurdistan as the Kurds!

I compare them to the European Jews. Who're actually native to Europe. Jews in Europe are mostly native to Europe, but their origin is Semitic (from Israel). Assyrians are native to Kurdistan. They do even live longer in Kurdistan than Jews in Europe, but their origin is Semitic too.

But Kurds are native to Kurdistan and their origin lies in Kurdistan too. I mean take the Jezidism for instance. It's an ancient Kurdish religion and it's from Kurdistan. I think that the Yezidism is older than the Assyrian ethnicity.

My roots (from my fathers side) are not far from Lalish-Shengal (Syrian-Iraqi border). If the Yezidism is older than the Assyrian ethnicity and it's only belongs to Kurdish people, than this means that Kurds were there first!

Goga
06-10-11, 01:18
The problem is that some Assyrians try to take over Kurdish heritage.

Haven't you noticed that these Assyrians obsessively following us. Every time when I claim something about the Kurds the so called 'Assyrians' are trying to involve ancient Assyrians into such discussions.

They actually deny their Semitic roots. They think that they're Hurrian / Caucasian (or maybe even Indo-European). I don't even know why? Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!

Of course they ain't no Arabs, but this doesn't mean that they're not Semitic. Jews are not the same as Arabs. But even Jews are Semitic. Assyrians are just 'different' Semitic folks, but they are also different to Arabs or Jews. They are still Semites...

sparkey
06-10-11, 01:49
Colemêrg is situated in the centrum and heart of Kurdistan. It's a very mountainous area. I don't think that Assyrians are from the mountains! Colemêrg was NEVER Assyrian homeland!
As far as I know Kurdish mountains always has been inhabited by the (proto-)Kurds. I've got the feeling that some folks just try to steal Kurdish history and the achievements of Kurdish ancestors.

Calm down, Goga. Modern Assyrians can still be from Hakkari, even though it was originally its own kingdom and Assyrians were from Assur and nearby.


Nineveh was the heart and centrum of the ancient Assyrian homeland. Assyrians are from central Iraq and are very close to Iraqi Arabs.

Assyrians share a lot with Iraqi Arabs, but they aren't the closest population to them. Dodecad has shown that Mandaeans are closer, for example. That may be because Mandaeans have less non-Mesopotamian admixture than Iraqi Arabs. Either way, it seems to indicate that Assyrians are indeed the most direct descendant population from the ancient Assyrians (although there's no reason to think of them as "pure"). That would make them closely related to the Southern Mesopotamians that Mandaeans are likely descended primarily from, but the ancient Assyrians were not exactly the Southern branch of the Akkadians.


Once again, I don't think that ancient Assyrians had the same DNA as the modern so called Assyrians. Ancient Assyrians were descendant of the Akkadians and Akkadians lived in southern parts of Mesopotamia!

Oh? Have you seen the Dodecad results? How do you interpret them? This conclusion seems at odds with that data to me.


I think that they deserve some place for themselves, though. Somewhere around Mosul. But is very silly to claim places like Colemerg or other Kurdish palces.

It's very good of you to call for an Assyrian autonomous area, but what cities or towns would you actually allow them to have? I can't imagine it going over well to give them Mosul. Maybe Arbil?


They actually deny their Semitic roots. They think that they're Hurrian / Caucasian (or maybe even Indo-European). I don't even know why? Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!

Of course they ain't no Arabs, but this doesn't mean that they're not Semitic. Jews are not the same as Arabs. But even Jews are Semitic. Assyrians are just 'different' Semitic folks, but they are also different to Arabs or Jews. They are still Semites...

I agree with most of this, but I haven't really seen the sentiment, so I wonder if you're attacking a straw man. Most reputable Assyrianists claim that Assyrians are principally Semitic and Mesopotamian.

Goga
06-10-11, 02:16
This topic was about Mitanni and not about Assyrians. Assyrians also hijacked the topic about the Sarmartians. What's wrong with them?!



Oh? Have you seen the Dodecad results? How do you interpret them? This conclusion seems at odds with that data to me.
That they're native Kurdistan! But how do you interpret that they also took over very much elements of Kurdish/Iranic culture?


It's very good of you to call for an Assyrian autonomous area, but what cities or towns would you actually allow them to have? I can't imagine it going over well to give them Mosul. Maybe Arbil?
I'm very generous about this. Saladin was even born in a place south to Mosul, in Tikrit! According to many (Yezidi) Kurds in Mosul and other parts of Kurdistan is Mosul Kurdish too. Even Tikrit was once Kurdish, but because of the Arabization Kurds lost that city forever.

Sure, if they were the majority in Hewler and other Kurdish cities and could show that they were there first, I think that they would have a great chance to have that too.
The other possibility is to wipe out all Kurds from earth. This is what Turks, Arabs and Iranians tried to do together. But didn't succeed.

Let give Assyrians some land in the disputed areas in Iraq and solve the problem! I bet, that they will not survive for a very long time in the modern Middle East if they got their state. I think that they will become Arabs eventually!

Cobol19
06-10-11, 09:16
Sparkey and Humanist, I don't even know why you guys bother with this Goga dude, he's some paranoid person with an agenda to talk shit about Assyrians, Turks, and any other group that happens to be native in lands where Kurds live in, with all the crap he wrote, I'm actually baffled that you guys still take him seriously and discuss with him, I will just say one thing, he does NOT know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, that should be enough :laughing:

I will say one thing, the Assyrian homeland is actually in Northern Mesopotamia, and I will also say that the Assyrians of Hakkari are not from there originally, they migrated there recently from the Arbil area during Tamerlane.

Humanist
06-10-11, 12:36
Green=Iraqi Kurd and Zaza
Fuchsia=Turk (w/ believed Khorasanian ancestry)
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean (From S Iraq)
Red=Assyrian (Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, and "Nestorian")
Orange=Syrian (Arab Muslim)

Adding two Syrians and one new Assyrian.

Regarding Mosul. Nineveh was largely destroyed. This is supported by both historical accounts (e.g. Xenophon) and archaeological data (Taylor et al.). Whatever number of people survived, did not remain in the city, as it soon became uninhabitable. Thus, no living person, unless admixed, will plot around Nineveh. The Assyrians who survived in the east, were largely from Arbil* and its environs (see Adiabene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene), see Adiabene Ecclesiastical Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene_(East_Syrian_Ecclesiastical_Province))). Eastern influences (Iranian, and later Kurdish, etc.), over the subsequent 2600 years would certainly have impacted the genomes of the eastern remnants. The same can be said for those in the west, except, the influence would have come in the form of Levantine, and other Mediterranean admixture. Armenian influence over the many centuries on all Assyrians would have also impacted the genomes of the remnants. So, one must allow for some minimal shift to the north. The latitudinal coordinates for four out of the five Assyrians lacks much variation (read: it is reliable).

Dr. Simo Parpola, Assyrians after Assyria


When the Greek historian Xenophon 200 years after Nineveh's fall passed through the Assyrian heartland and visited the sites of two great Assyrian cities, he found nothing but ruin...
--------------------------------------------
Dr. Karen Radner, Nineveh, Assyria's capital in the 7th century BC


From the reign of Sennacherib (r. 704-681 BC) onwards, Nineveh was the capital of the Assyrian empire. It was then considered to be the world's largest city: according to the Old Testament book of Jonah, it was home to 120,000 people and took three days to cross.

Like every irrigation system, these waterworks needed constant maintenance and repair. So when Nineveh fell to the Babylonian and Median armies in 612 BC the complex quickly ceased to function properly as no-one was financing or organising the regular upkeep that was necessary. This collapse contributed to the rapid abandonment of the city because without artificial irrigation it could not provide a home for its many inhabitants. Nineveh soon became a ghost town.

UNESCO

Erbil Citadel Town (http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5479/), which is situated dramatically on top of an artificial, 32-meters high earthen mound, and visually dominating the expansive modern city of Erbil, is believed to have been in continuous existence for 7000 years or even more. Thus, it may be regarded as the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the world. Because of its past fortifications and steeply inclined mound, which is at some locations nearly 45 degrees, it has managed to survive numerous sieges and fierce attacks. The existing fabric, however, goes back to several hundred years but is, nevertheless, of extreme vernacular architectural and urban interest, not only for Iraq but also for humanity at large.

Goga
06-10-11, 15:54
I will just say one thing, he does NOT know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, that should be enough :laughing:
What is the deep ancestry of the Assyrians? With which folks are they close according to deep ancestry?

Goga
06-10-11, 15:58
As far as I know true descendants of Mitanni, Kassites and before them Guti are Kurds. All these people lived in Kurdistan before the name of the Medes was mentioned. Guti were in Kurdistan before the Assyrians called themselves Assyrian. I think that Guri were Iranic folks. Modern Kurds are named after Guti. Hewler was a capital of Gutium, many many years before Assyrians!

I don't want to proof anything. It doesn't even matter. Kurds has been Kurdistan as far as they can remember and they will continue their lives on Kurdish soil forever. Nobody will ever change that.

It's even very silly to argue with people about nothing. I don't even know what the point is about these Assyrians. What do they want to achieve? They never harmed Kurds and they will never harm Kurds.

Alan
06-10-11, 17:28
Green=Iraqi Kurd and Zaza
Fuchsia=Turk (w/ believed Khorasanian ancestry)
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean (From S Iraq)
Red=Assyrian (Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, and "Nestorian")
Orange=Syrian (Arab Muslim)



Just a small Question. How come it that you mention Zaza separately and at the same time Chaldeans, Syriacs under the Term Assyrian? Even though the Tested individual isnt Zaza Kurdish?

Alan
06-10-11, 17:52
About Adiabene, Arabs called it "Akrad al-Hadiab".

Scythian ruler of Adiabene, Izates II. Antique relief.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_e6e2g8QLQ9g/S-Mq8lZ4XaI/AAAAAAAAAMg/z2YvgZsAy_E/s1600/Izates+II.jpg

Traditional costumes of Gorani/Sorani Kurds living in the area were this relief was found.
52345233

To get a better image here the Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eFFba_pVA4

sparkey
06-10-11, 17:52
This topic was about Mitanni and not about Assyrians. Assyrians also hijacked the topic about the Sarmartians. What's wrong with them?!

Point taken Goga, I'll split this thread into two.

Alan
06-10-11, 18:17
Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!



wrong. I dont know about algebra but writing was invented by Sumerians.

Humanist
06-10-11, 22:25
Just a small Question. How come it that you mention Zaza separately and at the same time Chaldeans, Syriacs under the Term Assyrian? Even though the Tested individual isnt Zaza Kurdish?

Green = Kurds. Kurds of Iraqi origin, and Zaza Kurds. And, sorry, this is what I thought he had stated in his thread on ABF. I thought he was definitively Zaza. But, he is Alevi, with "possibly some Zaza."

"Alevi Kurds from Dersim (possibly some Zaza), with oral ties to Khorasan."

All of the Assyrians participating identify as such. Whether they attend the Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, or Nestorian Church.

This thread, frankly, is ridiculous. And I am not speaking in particular about you, Che. Although I absolutely, in the strongest sense, disagree with your suggestion that Adiabene was Kurdish. Why are we arguing about costumes, when we have genetic data right in front of our eyes?

Cobol19, you were right. There simply is no point trying to discuss things with that other individual.

Alan
06-10-11, 22:42
Green = Kurds. Kurds of Iraqi origin, and Zaza Kurds. And, sorry, this is what I thought he had stated in his thread on ABF. I thought he was definitively Zaza. But, he is Alevi, with "possibly some Zaza."

"Alevi Kurds from Dersim (possibly some Zaza), with oral ties to Khorasan."

All of the Assyrians participating identify as such. Whether they attend the Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, or Nestorian Church.


Ok good I understand. Like I mentioned before. People usually have a wrong picture of demographics in the East. The area is pretty hard mixed between Kurmanj-Zaza. Dersim alone has 30% Kurmanj speakers, while 65% are Zaza.



This thread, frankly, is ridiculous. And I am not speaking in particular about you, Che. Although I absolutely, in the strongest sense, disagree with your suggestion that Adiabene was Kurdish. Why are we arguing about costumes, when we have genetic data right in front of our eyes?



Humanist how has genetic proven Adiabene being anything? I simply wrote that Arabs called Adiabene, Akrad Al -Adiab and its not only the costumes. It isnt hard to connect and assume that Izates II ruling exactly were Kurds live today, being Iranic , wearing the same costume and even the name Izates (still exists as Izzet among Kurds) had most probably a connection to the Kurds in that area. Most probably the ancestor of them. However Adiabene was as much Kurdish as it was Assyrian. Namely almost zero. Adiabene was a Roman province were Kurdish ancestors and Assyrians lived under rulers changing from Roman to Parthian.

sparkey
06-10-11, 22:53
Cobol19, you were right. There simply is no point trying to discuss things with that other individual.

Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.

Back on topic, Goga was asking about Assyrian deep ancestry, so this may be as good a place as any to bring up Assyrian Y-DNA R1b. It's quite common among Assyrians and is a clade that cuts unexpectedly close to Western IE clades (L23+ but L11-). Does its introduction to the population predate the distinct Assyrian ethnicity, I wonder? I suspect that the fact that it is L11- indicates that it is not along an IE line, but is rather just about the closest non-IE R1b cousin we can get to the IE Western Europeans. That could help narrow down a couple of interesting problems: the origin of Western European R1b, and the earliest genetic input into the Assyrians.

Alan
06-10-11, 23:25
Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.



Agree. I had the same passion not too long ago. However when I smell trol.ing, it comes up again.

Yetos
07-10-11, 00:33
I wonder why some people do not see this

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5234&d=1317916237


http://www.elliniki-gnomi.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Kreter-Patras-1.png


http://www.komninoi.gr/e107_images/custom/pontioi3.jpg


Kurds Cretans Pontians-Greeks (Black sea rumlar)

the difference is the below

http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/grk101/linked_pages/Baltimore,+Hopkins+AIA+B8.image


Scythians always wear a uniform in every pic
and sometimes a hat like that

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZYub0Dj-3qvbdTFtMYBXpnbactvtt4CYMhdofV1udpjKMZKcDgdAnn9BNz g

That hat is also known as Phrygian hat
very famoys among Makedonian army, with the every day Kaysia,

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/Armor/MacedonianHelmet.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg/220px-Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg

even Alexander wears the Phrygian hat
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Macedoniansymbols/images/lionhunt.JPG


the common of these population is also in Linguistic since are considered same time developed IE (LPIE)

the name for Cretans was Κουρητες Curetes or Quretes, an old name for Kurds is Qurtie
Kuretes are mentioned that went from Crete to Northern Greece and even more far to Illyria Dalmatia area were Brygians later developed
Kuretes means dancers
and from all cultures, especially the kurds who read my post, know that many Kurdish,Pontic and Cretan dances are almost the same,
the common among these population in gennes?

you figure out,

all I know is J2a I2a and R1a
remember that Greek language and Iranian language share the same ancestor,

thank you

BTW I don't believe that Kurds have connection with Assyrians but with Qurtie and Phrygian and Northen Iranic populations

Alan
07-10-11, 01:55
Yes Kurds are traditionally known throughout the Near East for their dances and costumes.

Kurds usually wear pointy heads see in the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q414ja0SYho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e33-OmsY6fY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPjiEQ7efds


some Photos. Kurdish
cavalryman from 1730 picture drawn by a German.
http://www.stockphotopro.com/photo-thumbs-2/stockphotopro_17300KAQ_0400000220.jpghttp://img4.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/heads23zbq7eg2wu9.jpg (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)
Kurd from Caucasus with typical red pointy head.
http://www.saradistribution.com/foto3/kurdman_1780_engravings.jpg

some variation of pointy heads among Kurds today.
5245

Cobol19
07-10-11, 05:35
Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.

There's no room for personal passion when it comes to DNA facts, the dude needs to calm down and stop being paranoid, if he reads something he does not agree with he starts accusing people of being anti-Iranic or whatever, it's a personal issue, not a Kurdish issue, because we generally (Myself and Humanist) have great respectful discussions with other Kurds on different forums.


Back on topic, Goga was asking about Assyrian deep ancestry, so this may be as good a place as any to bring up Assyrian Y-DNA R1b. It's quite common among Assyrians and is a clade that cuts unexpectedly close to Western IE clades (L23+ but L11-). Does its introduction to the population predate the distinct Assyrian ethnicity, I wonder? I suspect that the fact that it is L11- indicates that it is not along an IE line, but is rather just about the closest non-IE R1b cousin we can get to the IE Western Europeans. That could help narrow down a couple of interesting problems: the origin of Western European R1b, and the earliest genetic input into the Assyrians.

This may be a Neolithic connection, from what I know, the Assyrian R1b that resembles Western European R1b's is R1b1b2a1c, I'm not sure whether this specific subclade exists in Europe or not.

Cobol19
07-10-11, 05:38
all I know is J2a I2a and R1a
remember that Greek language and Iranian language share the same ancestor,


I won't go into detail but I will say that these haplogroups are not only connected with Indo-European languages, mind you, I2a is absent in Asia, meaning it had no connection with the major Iranian umbrella.

Yetos
08-10-11, 00:40
I won't go into detail but I will say that these haplogroups are not only connected with Indo-European languages, mind you, I2a is absent in Asia, meaning it had no connection with the major Iranian umbrella.

I2a exist in west Iranian population,

comparing Iranian population we find them from minor asia to deep central Asia,
Now when we speak about Iranian populations of today it is different with Iranian population of Past,
in another thread there is much talk and debate about I2 in West Iranian population,
the case of Kuretes who travel from Iran to Greece to central Balkans Dancing and fighting could be connected with the spread of IE language,
Besides these types of dances, as also the uniform clothes are common in J2a populations and DO NOT exist in north West European R1b or North East Europe R1a,
these circle dances that can be found from Balkans to Kalash come from relative and parallel cultures,
HG is not a nation, moving of Haplogroups creates Nations and culture,
Iranians are not the same Nation with Greeks and Kalash etc but maybe all share a culture ancestor in south of caucas,

Humanist
08-10-11, 19:54
Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.

Back on topic, Goga was asking about Assyrian deep ancestry, so this may be as good a place as any to bring up Assyrian Y-DNA R1b. It's quite common among Assyrians and is a clade that cuts unexpectedly close to Western IE clades (L23+ but L11-). Does its introduction to the population predate the distinct Assyrian ethnicity, I wonder? I suspect that the fact that it is L11- indicates that it is not along an IE line, but is rather just about the closest non-IE R1b cousin we can get to the IE Western Europeans. That could help narrow down a couple of interesting problems: the origin of Western European R1b, and the earliest genetic input into the Assyrians.

There is a fine line between being passionate, and being disrespectful. This gentleman, from my perspective, has crossed that line a number of times. This includes instances where the issue being discussed pertained to Assyrians, or where an Assyrian forum member was engaged in the discussion. There is no need for it. Both Cobol19 and I respect and support the Kurds, and their pursuit for an independent homeland. But, there are Kurds (and there are Assyrians of the same ilk), who, for whatever reason, have an exceedingly myopic take on certain issues related to genetics. This may be due to an insufficient understanding of the subject, or a problem of a different sort. Whatever the case, I do not appreciate it. Regardless from which direction it comes. Be it Assyrian or Kurd.

R-L584 is swallowing up a significant chunk of our R-M269 haplotypes. R-L277 (or however it is later defined), may do the same, albeit not to the same extent. Thus far, only Armenians, Assyrians, Cohanim, and a man identifying as a "Turk of the Alevi faith," have tested positive for R-L584. The handful of European men have tested negative. Iraqi Arabs have also tested negative for the SNP.

Many populations in the ME have not been studied. But, significant R-M269 frequencies, from whatever data is available, does not appear to be limited to Armenians and Assyrians in the ME.

Relatively high frequencies of R-M269 among certain populations of NW Iran were found in a study from a couple of years ago. Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2009 Dec;4(1):e53-5. Epub 2009 Jun 5. A Y-STR database of Iranian and Azerbaijanian minority populations.

For Y-DNA data on N Syrian Alawites ("Eti" Turks), now living in Adana, Turkey: Dönbak L., Bajanowski T., Brinkmann B., Hohoff C. (2006), 'Y-STR haplotypes in populations from the Eastern Mediterranean region of Turkey', Int J Legal Med 120(6), 395-396

For recent Y-DNA data on Druze, now living in Israel: Nadia Al-Zahery , Maria Pala , Vincenza Battaglia , Viola Grugni , Mohammed A Hamod , Baharak Hooshiar Kashani , Anna Olivieri , Antonio Torroni , Augusta S Santachiara-Benerecetti and Ornella Semino (2011), 'In search of the genetic footprints of Sumerians: a survey of Y-chromosome and mtDNA variation in the Marsh Arabs of Iraq,' BMC Evolutionary Biology

The Druze, in the Al-Zahery paper referred to above (N=37), were 49% R-M269. The N Syrian Alawi, in the 2006 paper (N=104) on East Med populations of Turkey, based on 9-STR haplotypes put through Whit Athey's predictor, came out ~35%-40% R1b(likely R-M269), with more than half carrying DYS393=13.

A few Caucasian populations may also have similar rates of R-M269. See Balanovsky et al., and Yunusbayev et al.

Goga
08-10-11, 21:48
There is a fine line between being passionate, and being disrespectful. This gentleman, from my perspective, has crossed that line a number of times. This includes instances where the issue being discussed pertained to Assyrians, or where an Assyrian forum member was engaged in the discussion. There is no need for it. Both Cobol19 and I respect and support the Kurds, and their pursuit for an independent homeland. But, there are Kurds (and there are Assyrians of the same ilk), who, for whatever reason, have an exceedingly myopic take on certain issues related to genetics. This may be due to an insufficient understanding of the subject, or a problem of a different sort. Whatever the case, I do not appreciate it. Regardless from which direction it comes. Be it Assyrian or Kurd. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're a cheater and a liar.

All you do is manipulating data to make Assyrians look native to Kurdistan and Kurds not. I know your agenda, but you will not succeed with your amateurish propaganda. Why? Because it's way to absurd and miles away from the reality.
Every historical achievement in Kurdistan was done by Assyrians, right?


With some hocus-pocus you connect Assyrian DNA to Kurdistan. And make Kurds alien to their own homeland. But under what conditions? Every person with some brains knows that. Too bad that most Kurds don't have brains (otherwise Kurds would waged a big war against Turkey, Syria and Iran now, since they're still in denial of Kurdish rights. Also most Kurds don't understand that if they want free Kurdistan they must liberated it by force, because nobody will it give it to Kurds voluntary. Millions of Kurds MUST die.)

Buddy, you're a cheater and a liar. Deep in you heart you hate Kurds with all you passion. You're a racist. That's why I don't respect you and your people and I will never respect them. How can I respect somebody who hates me?

And believe me and always remember that there're folks who are smarter than you! Once again, you're a wolf in sheep's clothing!

sparkey
08-10-11, 22:55
You're a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're a cheater and a liar.

Aaaand infraction. Let's tone down the rhetoric here and get back to talking about Assyrian genetics.

Alan
08-10-11, 23:23
You're a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're a cheater and a liar.

All you do is manipulating data to make Assyrians look native to Kurdistan and Kurds not. I know your agenda, but you will not succeed with your amateurish propaganda. Why? Because it's way to absurd and miles away from the reality.
Every historical achievement in Kurdistan was done by Assyrians, right?



It is true that Humanist did "manipulate" and false interpreted Kurdish DNA a time ago to make them look as foreigners but he did already apologies for this openly on the Assyrian board Forum-Biodiversity. You shouldnt put Humanist or especially Cobol in the same category as the frustrated Admin of Biodiversity Elias, who did ban me because of an ironic remark I made towards a hateful tro.l while a Turkish User who constantly called another member Bi... and me son of a .... did not even get a warning even though I reported him 5 times!

Cobol19
09-10-11, 01:25
It is true that Humanist did "manipulate" and false interpreted Kurdish DNA a time ago to make them look as foreigners but he did already apologies for this openly on the Assyrian board Forum-Biodiversity. You shouldnt put Humanist or especially Cobol in the same category as the frustrated Admin of Biodiversity Elias, who did ban me because of an ironic remark I made towards a hateful tro.l while a Turkish User who constantly called another member Bi... and me son of a .... did not even get a warning even though I reported him 5 times!

For the record, Humanist did not do such thing, his information consisted data analysis from Dr. McDonald (Who is very respected and well known by the genetic communities online), it was not Humanist who placed Kurds in Northwest Iran, it was Dr. McDonlad, if anyone is not happy with that, they can go argue with him, then again, he's probably a wolf in sheep clothes too :laughing:

To be precise and on topic, Dr. McDonald's analysis places the Kurds in Northwest Iran (Which were mostly Iraqi Kurdish samples) with the exception of one Kurdish sample (Zazaki) that ended up in East Turkey (Around Agri province), the Assyrians are a little west of the Kurdish samples in North Iraq, in historical terms, Northwest Iran was known as Madai and North Iraq as Assyria, seems like Dr. McDonald's analysis seems very close to the truth.

Goga
09-10-11, 02:25
it was not Humanist who placed Kurds in Northwest Iran, it was Dr. McDonlad
No, these fake maps are created by your friend.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=13985

Alan
09-10-11, 02:26
Off topic, but I had to post it before I forgot.

@Yetos more Kurds with Scythian/Phrygian pointy heads.

52505251

Goga
09-10-11, 02:31
There's nothing to say about the ancient Assyrians. I mean everything is well known about them. They're far from an enigma.

They're northern Semites that are mixed with the Hurrians and Kurds.

Goga
09-10-11, 02:35
I've got a question for the Assyrian fellow members on this site. Do you guys think that you're related to the ancient Mitanni & Guti? Please, I really want to know that...

Alan
09-10-11, 02:40
For the record, Humanist did not do such thing, his information consisted data analysis from Dr. McDonald (Who is very respected and well known by the genetic communities online), it was not Humanist who placed Kurds in Northwest Iran, it was Dr. McDonlad, if anyone is not happy with that, they can go argue with him, then again, he's probably a wolf in sheep clothes too :laughing:


wrong, read here.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=302246&postcount=54

He indeed had a bias against Kurds. We dont claim that he did false "Genetic§ studies on Kurds but that he indeed did interpreted the Results false.



To be precise and on topic, Dr. McDonald's analysis places the Kurds in Northwest Iran (Which were mostly Iraqi Kurdish samples) with the exception of one Kurdish sample (Zazaki) that ended up in East Turkey (Around Agri province), the Assyrians are a little west of the Kurdish samples in North Iraq, in historical terms, Northwest Iran was known as Madai and North Iraq as Assyria, seems like Dr. McDonald's analysis seems very close to the truth.

You know as much as me, that Dr. McDonald places all samples a bit too far East. All samples used so far were actually from Iran and Iraq. Even the one Kurd from Anatolia tested before had his origins documented from Northwest Iran. Even ethnologists placed the origin of his tribe (Sinemli) in North Iran who settled in Central Anatolia.
Read here
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=528599&postcount=36
His dialect is more close to Kurmanji from Northwest Iran than Anatolia. So it is no surprise that Zert is the only Kurd so far, who is placed by Dr. Mcdonald on Anatolia. Simply because he is the only real Anatolian Kurd tested so far.

And like I mentioned he is not a Zazaki Speaker. I already had to explain this Humanist. Please red my former comments. Dersim might be in majority settled by Zazaki speaking Kurds but 30% (almost ever third) is Kurmanji speaking.

North Iraq in his first step was never called "Assyria" but Hurria-Mitanni, Gutium. In second step Assyria and in third Median confederation. The Time line lies so much in the past that it seems very absurd to discuss about which Empire first appeared in North Iraq. Everything b. c. is very old in this area and can be seen as native.
Please Cobol19 dont start with this kind of things. And like I said Madai were only a confederation build up by tribes who early moved into this Region like Gutians, Hurrians, Scythians, Cimmerians and so on.

Goga
09-10-11, 02:54
It is true that Humanist did "manipulate" and false interpreted Kurdish DNA a time ago to make them look as foreigners but he did already apologies for this openly on the Assyrian board Forum-BiodiversityHe apologized because his lies were caught by others. But if he wasn't caught and if others didn't conceal his lies he would never apology!

Remember Kurds have no friends but mountains. If somebody is friendly against you, it's for his/her purposes (own good). He wants something from you. And never trust an Armenians or an Assyrian. They trully HATE Kurds. Believe it or not when I went to college here in Amsterdam an Assyria guy was my classmate. We became never friends and I felt his hatred toward me.

You can trust a Turk, but a Turk will only accept you if you say that you're Turkish and the whole world (from Japan to the USA) is Turkish too. And Iranians are much worse than Turks...

Yetos
09-10-11, 05:16
Goga have you ever thought why?

First try to answer the Question why even Today Kurds are divided,
the story of Kurdistan reminds me the story of Greece at Ottoman's time,

Greek were divided to those who expect Venice to Help them,
to those who trusted Ottomans and have agreement with them,
to those who expected God and church to help them,
to those who expect nothing more than a bread every day to eat, and did not care,

the problem is inner and you know it, and not from outside,

Cobol19
09-10-11, 07:00
wrong, read here.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=302246&postcount=54

He indeed had a bias against Kurds. We dont claim that he did false "Genetic§ studies on Kurds but that he indeed did interpreted the Results false.


Read the post again, he did not draw the map wrong, this was actually a map made by me and it was still based on Dr. McDonald's analysis, not Humanist, basically the placement of the Assyrian samples at the time (Older analysis) was placed in Northwest Iran and the Kurds were a little further east close to North Central Iran, I was the one who suggested moving them a little west based on the trend, and guess what? That's exactly what Dr. McDonald's new analysis did, all the new updates show that, Kurds in Northwest Iran and Assyrians in the North Iraq junction.


You know as much as me, that Dr. McDonald places all samples a bit too far East. All samples used so far were actually from Iran and Iraq. Even the one Kurd from Anatolia tested before had his origins documented from Northwest Iran. Even ethnologists placed the origin of his tribe (Sinemli) in North Iran who settled in Central Anatolia.
Read here
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=528599&postcount=36
His dialect is more close to Kurmanji from Northwest Iran than Anatolia. So it is no surprise that Zert is the only Kurd so far, who is placed by Dr. Mcdonald on Anatolia. Simply because he is the only real Anatolian Kurd tested so far.Exactly, this is why there was no manipulation in those maps, it was a suggestion, and this suggestion is actually part of the new analysis updates.


North Iraq in his first step was never called "Assyria" but Hurria-Mitanni, Gutium. In second step Assyria and in third Median confederation. The Time line lies so much in the past that it seems very absurd to discuss about which Empire first appeared in North Iraq. Everything b. c. is very old in this area and can be seen as native.
Please Cobol19 dont start with this kind of things. And like I said Madai were only a confederation build up by tribes who early moved into this Region like Gutians, Hurrians, Scythians, Cimmerians and so on.Actually, Assyria as a kingdom existed before Mitanni, the establishment of Mitanni was around 1500 BC, the older Assyrian period started around 2000 BC, and before that the area belonged to the Akkadian empire before it was overthrown by the Gutium, during the Akkadian times it was called "Subartu", either way, I'm talking about Dr. McDonald's analysis and where he placed the samples in his new updates, if you or anyone else has a problem with that, you can email him and ask him why his analysis says that, it's much better than blaming Humanist who has nothing to do with this, better yet, why not test yourself and send your sample for analysis? I believe only then you'll believe in this (The other Kurds have all updated their analysis, you can check their results on ABF, you'll see the maps attached).


I've got a question for the Assyrian fellow members on this site. Do you guys think that you're related to the ancient Mitanni & Guti? Please, I really want to know that...

Goga, so long as you remain hostile and paranoid, there will never be any discussiong going on with you, so you can keep talking to yourself.

Alan
09-10-11, 07:12
@Cobol19 you are missing the point. Were did I spoke about any maps. I was talking about Humanist behave some time ago. He indeed did manipulate or falsely interpreted Kurdish Genetics. I dont want to give examples now but there are more than enough.

Goga
09-10-11, 13:34
Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6919/mapdodecad105.jpg

This map is provocative and very misleading!

Most Kurds are positioned in West Iran (green), while Assyrians at the heart of Kurdistan and the mountainous area around Colemerg where PKK is fighting (red)? With very few samples and what is the background of these samples? On what basis can you place Red in Central Kurdistan and Green in Eastern Kurdistan? So little samples doesn't reflect any reality! How much samples were used of REAL Kurds from North Kurdistan?

That site is filled with Turkmen, Assyrians and Armenians. All these folks hate Kurds. The whole site and the maps are very twisted. Every self-respecting Kurd should never visit that site...

Alan
09-10-11, 13:55
Read the post again, he did not draw the map wrong, this was actually a map made by me and it was still based on Dr. McDonald's analysis, not Humanist, basically the placement of the Assyrian samples at the time (Older analysis) was placed in Northwest Iran and the Kurds were a little further east close to North Central Iran, I was the one who suggested moving them a little west based on the trend, and guess what? That's exactly what Dr. McDonald's new analysis did, all the new updates show that, Kurds in Northwest Iran and Assyrians in the North Iraq junction.



Not really , Star send me the data of Palisto and his friend who both come from the Iraq-Iran border area in Sulaymaniah. And guess what, they were exactly settled there by McDonald but as usual a bit further east on the Iraqi side. We need to look up to the samples we have so far.

1. 1 person is from Iran
2. 3 persons from Iraq very close to Iran border with relatives in West Iran.
3. 2 persons from Anatolia, one of them like documented having his roots obviously in Northwest Iran.

So no surprise that McDonald settles two of them in Northwest Iran, 3 other in Iran but on the Iraqi border. And one in East Anatolia, around Ararat. And this again shows me that McDonald still settles a bit to far East. Were do you exactly know that he now started to settle them right?

Alan
09-10-11, 13:57
How much samples were used of REAL Kurds from North Kurdistan?



Actually only one from Anatolia and the Iraqi ones are also from East Iraq close to Iranian border.

Humanist
09-10-11, 16:56
wrong, read here.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=302246&postcount=54

He indeed had a bias against Kurds. We dont claim that he did false "Genetic§ studies on Kurds but that he indeed did interpreted the Results false.

Dogmatic does not equal bias.


[W]as my attempt at changing my dogmatic ways toward you and other Kurdish folks with whom I had disagreed (sometimes, unfortunately, bitterly).

And, quite frankly, I take great offense to even the suggestion. There was nothing to interpret. Dr. McDonald has consistently placed the great majority of Kurds in what is today part of NW Iran. I believe the average spot may be a bit too far east, and perhaps the south, because of some limitations of the analysis. But, Kurds appear to be, principally, the native element in what is today part of NW Iran.

Edit: At least, I should add, the Kurds who have tested. We await the testing of additional Kurds, to see how, if at all, they will differ from those already tested.

Humanist
09-10-11, 17:08
You're a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're a cheater and a liar.

I really do not deserve that. I am sorry.

Cobol19
09-10-11, 21:33
Not really , Star send me the data of Palisto and his friend who both come from the Iraq-Iran border area in Sulaymaniah. And guess what, they were exactly settled there by McDonald but as usual a bit further east on the Iraqi side. We need to look up to the samples we have so far.

1. 1 person is from Iran
2. 3 persons from Iraq very close to Iran border with relatives in West Iran.
3. 2 persons from Anatolia, one of them like documented having his roots obviously in Northwest Iran.

So no surprise that McDonald settles two of them in Northwest Iran, 3 other in Iran but on the Iraqi border. And one in East Anatolia, around Ararat. And this again shows me that McDonald still settles a bit to far East. Were do you exactly know that he now started to settle them right?

The older analysis used to put them further east, now it's fixed.

Goga
10-10-11, 17:26
I don't understand what the argument is? When the Mitanni had their own Aryan superstate in Kurdistan thy ruled over Hurrians and not over the northern Semites, right? It means that the Semites weren't native folks of Mitanni area.

Later on Assyrians from the south defeated this state, and Mianni state (Kurdistan) was reduced to the status of a province of the Middle Assyrian Empire.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3020/750pxneareast1400bce.jpg

Cobol19
11-10-11, 07:40
I don't understand what the argument is? When the Mitanni had their own Aryan superstate in Kurdistan thy ruled over Hurrians and not over the northern Semites, right? It means that the Semites weren't native folks of Mitanni area.

Later on Assyrians from the south defeated this state, and Mianni state (Kurdistan) was reduced to the status of a province of the Middle Assyrian Empire.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3020/750pxneareast1400bce.jpg

Not only do you need to learn about genetics, you need to learn history too, the Assyrians existed before the Mitanni, look up the old Assyrian period which existed in North Mesopotamia, this was the first Assyrian state which was a mix of natives and Akkadian Semites, the name Assyria itself comes from the name of the town (Ashur) that's located in North Mesopotamia (Modern North Iraq).

Here you go:



Old Assyrian Period

The name describes north Mesopotamia in the period about 2000-1740 BC, when the Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language is first written. The period is best known for the Assyrian trading colonies established in Anatolia for the exchange of textiles and tin for silver and gold. Some of the most important evidence comes from the trading colony of Kanesh (near modern Kayseri in Turkey).

Assyrian lists of kings show that from around 2000 BC the city of Ashur was governed by local rulers. However, the highly profitable position which Ashur gained from trade probably made it a target for the Amorite chieftain Shamshi-Adad I (1813-1776), whose power base lay to the west of Ashur. He conquered much of north Mesopotamia, establishing an empire which stretched from the city of Mari on the River Euphrates to Ashur in the east. When Shamshi-Adad died his empire attracted the ambitions of Hammurapi of Babylon who destroyed Mari and captured parts of Assyria.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/article_index/o/old_assyrian_period.aspx

Basically the Assyrian identity is a local native identity to North Mesopotamia (Around the province of Ninwa and its surroundings), the Semitic invasion that you speak of is not different from the Aryan one that came from South-Central Asia, it was a fusion of peoples, this has been proven by modern genetics, but I think you're not worth discussing this with because you're most likely going to attack again.

Goga
11-10-11, 14:35
Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.

But this doesn't mean that they were native to Kurdistan 4500 years ago!

As you can see Akkadians fought against the Hurrian even before Assyrians ever existed!

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4238/orientmitja2300ac.jpg

Goga
11-10-11, 14:42
The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2154 BC.
Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium (Sumerian: Gu-tu-umki[1] or Gu-ti-umki[2]) in the mountains, presumably the central Zagros in the Kurdish area of Iraq. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a short time after the fall of the Akkadian Empire, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/3698302850_db6662341e.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QOjYw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lB5IR.jpg

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=005131


List of the Gutian kings (from wikipedia)

Erridupizir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erridupizir) ca. 2141–2138 BC Royal inscription at Nippur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippur)
Imta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imta) or Nibia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibia) ca. 2138–2135 BC
Inkishush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkishush)ca. 2135–2129 BC First Gutian ruler on the Sumerian king list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_king_list)
Zarlagab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarlagab) ca. 2129–2126 BC
Shulme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulme) ca. 2126–2120 BC
Silulumesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silulumesh) or Elulmesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elulmesh) ca. 2120–2114 BC
Inimabakesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inimabakesh) ca. 2114–2109 BC
Igeshaush (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Igeshaush&action=edit&redlink=1) ca. 2109–2103 BC
Yarlagab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarlagab) ca. 2103–2088 BC
Ibate (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ibate_of_Guti&action=edit&redlink=1) ca. 2088–2085 BC
Yarla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarla) or Yarlangab (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yarlangab&action=edit&redlink=1) ca. 2085–2082 BC
Kurum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurum) ca. 2082–2081 BC
Apilkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apilkin) ca. 2081–2078 BC
La-erabum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La-erabum) ca. 2078–2076 BC Mace head inscription
Irarum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irarum) ca. 2076–2074 BC
Ibranum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibranum) ca. 2074–2073 BC
Hablum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hablum) ca. 2073–2071 BC
Puzur-Suen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puzur-Suen) ca. 2071–2064 BC Son of Hablum
Yarlaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarlaganda) ca. 2064–2057 BC Foundation inscription at Umma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umma)
Si'um (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si%27um) or Si'u (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si%27um) ca. 2057–2050 BCFoundation inscription at Umma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umma)
Tirigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirigan)ca. 2050–2050 BCDefeated by Utu-hengal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utu-hengal) of Uruk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

Cobol19
11-10-11, 15:55
Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.


This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot, my conversations with you are done, you cry and complain about people having an agenda against Kurds yet you make stupid comment after another with agenda against others, you talk about genetics and history with authority yet you have no clue what the difference between an apple or a banana is, I don't even know why I bothered, I thought you'll learn but I guess that won't happen, well, if you wanna continue making yourself look like an idiot, be my guest, but I'm done discussing with you and any forum member with an ounce of intelligence in their head should ignore you for the same reasons.

Goga
11-10-11, 16:18
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot...You can insult me all day long, but it doesn't change the reality that the ancient Assyrians belonged to the Semitic group like modern Arabs do. Arabs and ancient Assyrians share the same Semitic ancestors. Their languages proof that! Later on when they moved up to north they mixed with the ancestors of Armenians and the ancestors of the Kurds.
So that's why if I must compare modern Assyrian population to other modern people for me it's logical to say that they are an admixture of Arabs, Kurds and Armenians. Nothing disrespectful toward others.

"In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people


You can have the last word!

Taranis
11-10-11, 17:11
This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot, my conversations with you are done, you cry and complain about people having an agenda against Kurds yet you make stupid comment after another with agenda against others, you talk about genetics and history with authority yet you have no clue what the difference between an apple or a banana is, I don't even know why I bothered, I thought you'll learn but I guess that won't happen, well, if you wanna continue making yourself look like an idiot, be my guest, but I'm done discussing with you and any forum member with an ounce of intelligence in their head should ignore you for the same reasons.

Cobol, please. There's no reason to denigrate other board members no matter how much you disagree with them.

Cobol19
11-10-11, 21:38
Cobol, please. There's no reason to denigrate other board members no matter how much you disagree with them.

I'm not degrading, I just think it's absurd how this person complains so much yet he comes up with these outrageous claims that have no basis behind them besides an agenda, I'm actually surprised he lasted this long here and people still discuss with him, for crying out loud, he does not even know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, how are people still discussing genetics with him goes beyond my head.

Anyways, I already had my last reply on that, I'll just ignore him from now on since he's not worth the time, no need to put fuel on fire.

Alan
12-10-11, 00:19
Dogmatic does not equal bias.



And, quite frankly, I take great offense to even the suggestion. There was nothing to interpret. Dr. McDonald has consistently placed the great majority of Kurds in what is today part of NW Iran. I believe the average spot may be a bit too far east, and perhaps the south, because of some limitations of the analysis. But, Kurds appear to be, principally, the native element in what is today part of NW Iran.

Edit: At least, I should add, the Kurds who have tested. We await the testing of additional Kurds, to see how, if at all, they will differ from those already tested.



read my post. I think I did mention it enough. The "great majority " you are talking about are 5 individuals and all five either from Iran, close to Iranian border or have their origin in Northwest Iran.

Here are the maps showing were Dr.McDonald settled the Kurds from Sulaymaniah.

http://oi51.tinypic.com/zwiwrd.jpghttp://oi55.tinypic.com/16k83za.jpg

And this is the place of their origin. And they do have relatives from Iran.

Black point: birthplace
Red points: were Dr Mcdonald places them.
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Now Humanist is this really the prove that the "great majority" of Kurds have their origin in Northwest Iran? Where did you expect them to be placed, somewhere in the middle of North Iraq or even better in Southeast Anatolia? As people coming from the Iranian border region, having relatives and ancestors from the Iranian side. I think they are placed very normal. And you know even though Mc Donald improved his data, still many people come out a bit further east than their real place of birth.

Alan
12-10-11, 00:29
Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.

But this doesn't mean that they were native to Kurdistan 4500 years ago!

As you can see Akkadians fought against the Hurrian even before Assyrians ever existed!



If there are any People modern Assyrians might have similar origin with, than those are Armenians. But they are a people of their own and no one can take the right from them to feel like this.

Goga
12-10-11, 01:33
If there are any People modern Assyrians might have similar origin with, than those are Armenians. But they are a people of their own and no one can take the right from them to feel like this.
I think Assyrians and Armenians somehow mixed with each other due to the Christianity. Both folks are one the very first Christans in the world!

Alan
12-10-11, 03:36
I think Assyrians and Armenians somehow mixed with each other due to the Christianity. Both folks are one the very first Christans in the world!

The very first Christians were Israelits converting to Christianity. I think the Assyrians/Armenians are the first who fully converted to Christianity as a Folk.

Goga
12-10-11, 04:07
The very first Christians were Israelits converting to Christianity. I think the Assyrians/Armenians are the first who fully converted to Christianity as a Folk.The oldest (first?) Bible was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

Alan
17-10-11, 23:51
Another pointed head. This is very typical Kurdish sometimes in red.

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jjmuneer1
15-05-12, 18:24
Wierd that is where Fayli Kurds are situated mostly.