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View Full Version : Final thread.. which Europeans overlap with Levantines? Multiple choice.



oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 00:55
Physically I mean. After this, I have no more questions.. but I think that unlike the North Africa thread, this one people can at least agree on one or two answers.

oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 01:10
Btw for those of you who want an other/none option I included one.

Carlos
07-10-11, 02:03
Are there no photos to have an idea as a whole?

oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 02:16
Lebanese

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oreo_cookie
07-10-11, 02:21
Syrians

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5040244472_1e28ee2400_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5040244292_a413b48643_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4129/5039623533_669b2654c6_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5040244032_932fbda51f_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5039623193_4a4757ccfb_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5039622993_029cc0f813_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4111/5040243222_c98dac56e7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5039622509_c8f6d15fb7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5039622343_fc8f9f5ab9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4103/5039622013_0b20bc3f77_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5039621449_491c8d7036_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5039621349_758d6f7973_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/5040241534_91c4d52b87_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5040244846_dea053372c_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/5040244580_3c4af38ea1_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4109/5039623291_9002982621_m.jpg

Carlos
07-10-11, 15:21
lllllllllllllllllllllllll

Wilhelm
07-10-11, 17:51
I don't know why are you so obsessed with the overlapping of non-europeans, seriously Oreo.

Knovas
07-10-11, 17:53
I voted for Cypriots, Maltese, Sicilians and Greeks. In the same order.

Cambrius (The Red)
07-10-11, 22:07
Mostly Eastern Med ethnicities - Greeks, Maltese, Sicilians

Atilla
07-10-11, 22:24
Greeks, Sicilians, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Cypriots, Hungarians.

Cambrius (The Red)
07-10-11, 23:14
Possibly some Balkanites. No overlap with the western end of Europe.

oreo_cookie
08-10-11, 01:21
No overlap with the western end of Europe.

I agree with this.

oreo_cookie
13-10-11, 09:21
Jordanians

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oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 18:53
Any other thoughts?

Goga
17-10-11, 19:11
They look very Arabic to me and that's who they're: Arabs.

sparkey
17-10-11, 19:24
They look very Arabic to me and that's who they're: Arabs.

Surely you see different phenotypes comparing Levantines to Arabians though? "Arab" is more of a pan-ethnicity based on a shared language than a common ethnicity with a single phenotype. Lebanese people, for example, must inherit a lot of their genetic background from Phoenicians.

Goga
17-10-11, 19:36
Surely you see different phenotypes comparing Levantines to Arabians though? "Arab" is more of a pan-ethnicity based on a shared language than a common ethnicity with a single phenotype. Lebanese people, for example, must inherit a lot of their genetic background from Phoenicians.Many people think that Phoenicians were J2a folks from Northen Mesopotamia. I don't know how true that is. It seems that it is very popular that everybody link them to Northern Mesopotamia / Kurdistan. First we got Europeans who believe in the Anatolian hypothesis of INDO-Europeans, than the Jews claimed to be originally from Mesopotamia, then we got Arabs (J1 folks) and now the Levant folks?????

Anatolia is a very popular place to claim your origin, lol!

I don't know how Phoenicians did look like, but if they looked like the modern Levant population, I think that Phoenicians were Arabic (Semitic) too.

The modern Levant population is an admixture of Semites (Arabs) and Greeks. But in their appearance they're closer to other Arabs than Greeks. The Levant folks have very much hg. E and J1 too.

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 19:54
Levantines would be descendants of northern Semites (Phoenicians, Canaanites etc) more than Arabs.

sparkey
17-10-11, 20:06
Many people think that Phoenicians were J2a folks from Northen Mesopotamia. I don't know how true that is.

They probably had some J2a4 like modern Lebanese people unless the dating of modern J2a4 doesn't allow for it, I'm not sure. Diversity of J1 in the region seems to be higher than diversity of J2 in the region, so they probably had more of that. I doubt there is an unexpectedly strong bond between Levatines and Northern Mesopotamians otherwise. R1b, G2a, E1b, T, and L were likely also significant, although I admit I haven't analyzed Levantine Y-DNA closely.


It seems that it is very popular that everybody link them to Northern Mesopotamia / Kurdistan. First we got Europeans who believe in the Anatolian hypothesis of INDO-Europeans, than the Jews claimed to be originally from Mesopotamia, then we got Arabs (J1 folks) and now the Levant folks?????

It seems to me that you're being too sensitive to suspected encroachment onto Kurdish territory. Northern Mesopotamia was an important location in the development of agriculture, along with the rest of the Fertile Crescent, so it wouldn't be surprising to learn that early Northern Mesopotamians took that and spread elsewhere. That fact, if true, wouldn't take anything away from modern Kurdish land claims, don't worry.


The modern Levant population is an admixture of Semites (Arabs) and Greeks. But in their appearance they're closer to other Arabs than Greeks. The Levant folks have very much hg. E and J1 too.

Levatines seem more intermediate between Greeks and Arabians to me... although I suppose I would pick Arabians if I had to pick which one they are closer to phenotypically. It's a close call.

oreo_cookie
17-10-11, 20:42
Levantines have something unique though that you won't find in other groups I think.

oreo_cookie
19-10-11, 02:22
Anything else anyone has to add?

Rinconete
19-10-11, 13:38
I don't understand this type of survey. Here, everyone can vote on what he wants.

Yetos
19-10-11, 14:58
why not the opposite poll?

which middle eastern or para Arabic populations looks like European?

I would vote for wide Levantines Kurds etc

or which European looks like Central Asian?

Surely I would vote for Northern Europe.

Goga
19-10-11, 19:31
why not the opposite poll?

which middle eastern or para Arabic populations looks like European?

I would vote for wide Levantines Kurds etc

or which European looks like Central Asian?

Surely I would vote for Northern Europe.With all due respect but Kurds in general do not look like Europeans (and Europeans do not look like Kurds). Kurds are Iranic peoples that look like other Iranic people in Asia & Caucasus. Overall Kurds do look like some Caucasian folks from the Caucasus and Iranic folks in West and Central Asia.

The folks from the Levant speak Arabic and are also cultural and in appearance Arabs. If they ain't no Arabic who are??

lebowsky
19-10-11, 22:54
They look very Arabic to me and that's who they're: Arabs.

The same to me. I Have a question, why do you think many spaniards, sicilians, portuguese looks like latam?

Goga
20-10-11, 00:31
The same to me. I Have a question, why do you think many spaniards, sicilians, portuguese looks like latam?
I don't think that the Iberians and especially Sicilians look like Latin American. According to me Sicilians look very Sicilian first and Italian second and Spaniards look very Spanish.

The thing is I believe that the very first original R1b folks were as 'dark' as the modern Spaniards or even darker / schwartier in features. Haplogroup R1b is NOT a Nordic haplogroup.

Also South Europeans have a lot of hg. E.

Spanish folks are not dark because they're mixed, but because they have a lot of hg. R1b. Think about the homogeneous Basque population. Basque people are even darker/schwartier that other Spanish folks, and the Basques have more R1b.

Other Europeans have somehow lighter features ('whiter') than the Spanish folks because they have more hg. 'I'.

I believe that the original carriers of hg. 'I' were lighter than the original carriers of hg. 'R1b'!

oreo_cookie
20-10-11, 00:44
The same to me. I Have a question, why do you think many spaniards, sicilians, portuguese looks like latam?

They don't. Latin Americans are largely mixed race.. some combination of Spanish with either African, Native American, or both mixed in. Unmixed Latin Americans just look like whatever European ancestry they come from.

Yetos
20-10-11, 01:20
With all due respect but Kurds in general do not look like Europeans (and Europeans do not look like Kurds). Kurds are Iranic peoples that look like other Iranic people in Asia & Caucasus. Overall Kurds do look like some Caucasian folks from the Caucasus and Iranic folks in West and Central Asia.

The folks from the Levant speak Arabic and are also cultural and in appearance Arabs. If they ain't no Arabic who are??


returning respect,
Modern Levantines speak arabic,
reading Yehunda's Book we find an old pre-aramaic that connects also ancient Greek and Latin,,
Aramaic can be found also in Caucasus areas,

now if you consider J2a a clear semitic you are wrong,
we have J2a that is developent in Europe also,
as J2 clearly Indian etc,

for some guys if you believe that European means Blond and blue eyes you are wrong

exept if half Europe is not Europe for you,
considering Otzi's brown and Brachycephalic, then Alpine race which is not Brachykephalic is it European?

the Central Asian look like of Northern Europeans does not make them European original, and the south Europeans invaders in to the Northern Lands,

now check Kurds and then check some Balkanic populations and some Italian,
also check some Russian populations, but not of North, around Crimean and little eastern
Then anounce your results,

PS it is not my type to post photos of man,

Goga
20-10-11, 01:37
returning respect,
Modern Levantines speak arabic,
reading Yehunda's Book we find an old pre-aramaic that connects also ancient Greek and Latin,,
Aramaic can be found also in Caucasus areas,

now if you consider J2a a clear semitic you are wrong,
we have J2a that is developent in Europe also,
as J2 clearly Indian etc,

for some guys if you believe that European means Blond and blue eyes you are wrong

exept if half Europe is not Europe for you,
considering Otzi's brown and Brachycephalic, then Alpine race which is not Brachykephalic is it European?

the Central Asian look like of Northern Europeans does not make them European original, and the south Europeans invaders in to the Northern Lands,

now check Kurds and then check some Balkanic populations and some Italian,
also check some Russian populations, but not of North, around Crimean and little eastern
Then anounce your results,

PS it is not my type to post photos of man,
I don't think that J2 is Semitic. According to me only some subclades of hg. 'E' and 'J1' are Semtic and the Levatines have a lot Semitic J1 and the Middle Eastern hg. 'E'.

I'm Kurdish and I know how Kurds do look like. There're dark Kurds and there're light Kurds. Some of the Kurdish lineages are from the Northern Caucasus. I believe that Kurds have light features from the Northern Caucaus. From people who carried I2a into Kurdistan with them; be it Sarmatians/Alanians or Cimmerians (maybe Sarmatians and Cimmerians were two different names for the same people !). But all these people were NorthWest Iranic like the modern Kurds are. That's why I wrote that Kurds are Iranic & Caucasian in appearance. Europeans look somehow something different than Kurds and Kurds in general have 'darker' features than modern Europeans.


Yes, I know what you mean. I dont like to post the pictures of other unknown individuals too. It is an invasion of individuals privacy and in conflict with the copyright rules.

Drac II
20-10-11, 09:53
The thing is I believe that the very first original R1b folks were as 'dark' as the modern Spaniards or even darker / schwartier in features. Haplogroup R1b is NOT a Nordic haplogroup.

Also South Europeans have a lot of hg. E.

Spanish folks are not dark because they're mixed, but because they have a lot of hg. R1b. Think about the homogeneous Basque population. Basque people are even darker/schwartier that other Spanish folks, and the Basques have more R1b.

Other Europeans have somehow lighter features ('whiter') than the Spanish folks because they have more hg. 'I'.

You seem to persist with this little fallacy that Spaniards are somehow "darker", "swarthier" than all other people in Europe, when in fact no anthropological study has ever stated any such thing. If anything Spain is in fact one of the lighter areas of southern Europe, specially the Basques (whom you incorrectly think are "the darkest") and other northern Spaniards, who in Jablonski and Chaplin's skin pigmentation study (The evolution of human skin coloration) were found somewhat lighter-skinned than Belgians and southeastern English.

Knovas
20-10-11, 10:31
To have very pale skin between Northeast Iberians is quite usual. Being almost entirely Catalan, I can assure it's difficult to find someone as pale as me, and the same can be aplied to my sister, mother, grandma, and several friends whose heritage is mainly from the Northeast.

There are errors in your thoughts Goga. You asume that finding high R1b in Spain means is what we are made of. Of course we are, but it's not the major part (except between the Basques, but that's another story). According to the latest Dienekes' Calculator, we are mostly Southwestern, what means we are more likely I2a1a* and other I2a clades autosomally speaking, nothing more, nothing less. No need to say these are absolutely native to Europe.

The other thing, is that R1b is not necessarily darker depending on the clade. English and Irish are surely made in a very high percent of R1b clades (autosomal), and they are quite light in general. If you want to look for darker types of R1b, you should look at those found among the Eastern Mediterranean or Middle Eastern peoples. That's all we can asume.


The same to me. I Have a question, why do you think many spaniards, sicilians, portuguese looks like latam?
Strange question. You are quite recurrent having only 12 interventions. Keep trying.

I think there was a guy who called himself latam and he was a t.r.o.l.l. It's curious to see this again...

Yetos
20-10-11, 11:25
I don't think that J2 is Semitic. According to me only some subclades of hg. 'E' and 'J1' are Semtic and the Levatines have a lot Semitic J1 and the Middle Eastern hg. 'E'.

I'm Kurdish and I know how Kurds do look like. There're dark Kurds and there're light Kurds. Some of the Kurdish lineages are from the Northern Caucasus. I believe that Kurds have light features from the Northern Caucaus. From people who carried I2a into Kurdistan with them; be it Sarmatians/Alanians or Cimmerians (maybe Sarmatians and Cimmerians were two different names for the same people !). But all these people were NorthWest Iranic like the modern Kurds are. That's why I wrote that Kurds are Iranic & Caucasian in appearance. Europeans look somehow something different than Kurds and Kurds in general have 'darker' features than modern Europeans.


Yes, I know what you mean. I dont like to post the pictures of other unknown individuals too. It is an invasion of individuals privacy and in conflict with the copyright rules.

hmm
considering my view, and my few posts in another thread Kurds are more ancient than you think,
and they also connected with Aegean-Balkanic populations,

I don't know if that is after Alexander times, or at Skudra case times, or more ancient the Kouretes time,
but in many lod culture remains we find simmilar.
you may read my posts,

Kurds are maybe semi-minor Asian semi middle east,
but there is a lot of Iranic populations that looks more to European than to arabic or Indian,
In fact for me the area of south west caucas with Aegean Levant to almost half iran (Persia) and some parts of Afganistan share a typical phenotype that surely pass as European,

my point is that European does not exclusive mean Scandinavian Blonde,

Goga
20-10-11, 14:14
To have very pale skin between Northeast Iberians is quite usual. Being almost entirely Catalan, I can assure it's difficult to find someone as pale as me, and the same can be aplied to my sister, mother, grandma, and several friends whose heritage is mainly from the Northeast.

There are errors in your thoughts Goga. You asume that finding high R1b in Spain means is what we are made of. Of course we are, but it's not the major part (except between the Basques, but that's another story). According to the latest Dienekes' Calculator, we are mostly Southwestern, what means we are more likely I2a1a* and other I2a clades autosomally speaking, nothing more, nothing less. No need to say these are absolutely native to Europe.

The other thing, is that R1b is not necessarily darker depending on the clade. English and Irish are surely made in a very high percent of R1b clades (autosomal), and they are quite light in general. If you want to look for darker types of R1b, you should look at those found among the Eastern Mediterranean or Middle Eastern peoples. That's all we can asume.
According to me is the Iberian hg. R1b a Southwestern haplogroup, because the majority of it has been found in Iberia. It is a very native haplogroup to Iberia! I don't think that the Iberians have or even had much of hg. 'I'.

English and Irish people have much more hg. 'I' and even R1a. They're also mixed with the 'Nordic' Scandinavians (Vikings) and Germanic people. That's why English people are lighter (whiter) than the Iberians.

Goga
20-10-11, 14:23
my point is that European does not exclusive mean Scandinavian Blonde,Of course not. Spanish folks (but also Bulgarians etc.) are a great example that Europeans are not exclusively blonde or something

Knovas
20-10-11, 14:55
R1b in Iberia is surely very recent in comparison. The vast majority of people who lived in Iberia were I2a's, and there was a massive replacement at some point. That's why yo see very high R1b, but the previous autosomes are still very present. We have discussed this in several threads, specially the Paleolithic remants one. Actually, you are alone with such thoughts.

And again, you are wrong about the Iberian darkness, and specially Northeast Iberians. I guess you did not see much of them.

lebowsky
20-10-11, 16:30
They don't. Latin Americans are largely mixed race.. some combination of Spanish with either African, Native American, or both mixed in. Unmixed Latin Americans just look like whatever European ancestry they come from.

I don’t mean genetically, but in physical appearance. I've also noticed that some of them are very similar to the Arabs. Don’t they have some Spanish blood and Arabic?

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-11, 17:37
How incredibly uninformed some people are. The great majority of NATIVE Iberians look like standard Western Europeans. That's reality. Take a look at the many group and individual pictures of Iberians posted here.

As regards physical appearance, autosomal DNA (governs general PHYSICAL APPEARANCE) gives you the best clues. Iberians are between 86-91% Euro autosomally, with over 50% West Euro, North Euro and North Atlantic. No further discussion is necessary.

Goga
20-10-11, 17:41
How incredibly uninformed some people are. The great majority of NATIVE Iberians look like standard Western Europeans. That's reality. Take a look at the many group and individual pictures of Iberians posted here.
I was in Barcelona and I was in Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish people. And Spanish people in general are MUCH darker than Dutch folks. Fact!

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-11, 17:49
I was in Barcelona and I was in Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish people. And Spanish people in general are MUCH darker than Dutch folks. Fact!

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

Of course they are darker than the Dutch. DUH! Are you even sure the people you speak of are NATIVE Spaniards? As a whole, Spaniards resemble Western Euros in general. No, you are not blind, just biased in your perceptions. :useless: Read the Jablonski (2006) research.

Stop embarrassing yourself. You seem to have an obsession with darkening Iberians. It's quite strange.

Goga
20-10-11, 17:50
Kurds are maybe semi-minor Asian semi middle eastKurds are 100% West Asian. Kurdish race is an admixture of Caucasians (Hurrians) and INDO-European Northwest Iranic (=Aryan) people. There're also some East Iranic - Central Asian (Parthian) influences in Kurds.

But proto-Indo-Europeans migrated from West Asia into the Pontic Steppes at the first place. So Iranic folks are actually West Asian too.

Goga
20-10-11, 17:55
Of course they are darker than the Dutch. DUH! Are you even sure the people you speak of are NATIVE Spaniards? As a whole, Spaniards resemble Western Euros in general. No, you are not blind, just biased in your perceptions. :useless:

You seem to have an obsession with darkening Iberians. It's quite strange.No, I'm not obsessed with Iberians. The thing is if WE ALL speak the truth we will find the real truth very fast! But due to twisting of facts by some people the whole thing became very confusing.

Iberians ARE Europeans and they look very European, but in general they are 'dark' Europeans and compared to Dutch people, Scandinavians etc. they have got very 'schwartie' features!

Knovas
20-10-11, 17:57
In skin pigmentation the difference isn't absolutely huge. Dutch have usually pink tones, while Iberians are plain pale. Hair and eye colour is another story. With the British the similarities are even higher.

And it's true, like it or not, Iberians are very Western European, so you cannot pretend to obtain such things. Is what the latest results show, and I2a subclades have surely a lot to do with it.

Goga
20-10-11, 18:01
In skin pigmentation the difference isn't absolutely huge. Dutch have usually pink tones, while Iberians are plain pale. Hair and eye colour is another story. With the British the similarities are even higher.

And it's true, like it or not, Iberians are very Western European, so you cannot pretend to obtain such things. Is what the latest results show, and I2a subclades have surely a lot to do with it.
Yes, Iberians are Western European, but they're also SOUTH(West) European. While Dutch people are NORTH(West) European. Of all Europeans the Iberians have (together with Italians) less hg. 'I'.


Iberians are very ancient Europeans (and one of the oldest!) and they have R1b!

According to me the original carriers of hg. I were 'lighter' than the original carriers of hg. R1b.

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-11, 18:04
No, I'm not obsessed with Iberians. The thing is if WE ALL speak the truth we will find the real truth very fast! But due to twisting of facts by some people the whole thing became very confusing.

Iberians ARE Europeans and they look very European, but in general they are 'dark' Europeans and compared to Dutch people, Scandinavians etc. they have got very 'schwartie' features!

"Schwarthy" (swarthy)? What is your definition of swarthy, anyone who is not alabaster in skin tone? :laughing: Sorry, but the only one twisting facts is you. Once again for those with a challenged perspective of reality: Iberians, on average, have light to medium skin tones and some reasonable levels of light hair and eyes. Check all the autosomal DNA data and studies such as Jablonsky (2006). The large percentage resemble standard Western Europeans. Of course, they are darker than Scandinavians, Dutch and a few others. Hardly surprising.

Goga
20-10-11, 18:09
Of course, they are darker than Scandinavians, Dutch and others. Hardly surprising.I do agree with you on this. I'm not saying that Iberians are very 'dark'. I'm just saying that the Iberians are 'darker' compared to the NORTH Europeans.

But Spaniars are very European looking!

Knovas
20-10-11, 18:35
You are a contradiction Goga. If Iberians are the most Paleolithic, you MUST accept they are mostly composed of I2a variants. Yes, exactly what the Southwestern cluster means. Not casual when you check the distances to see this cluster like being isolated. It perfectly matches I2a1a* (but also others), very likely to originate in isolation around the Pyrenees and relevant presence in Iberia (the most accepted right now).

R1b is much more recent, and the presence in Iberia autosomally speaking is less than 40% in average according to the last clues. Is not bad, ok, but still lower if we compare with Southwestern, wich has little to do with R1b. Just go and check the British average of the latest Calculator, you cannot match the Southwestern with R1b. Scandinavians and others have haplogroup I, but they have mostly I1 in them, without considering R1b. Wich yes, is recent, none of the ancient DNA found till the moment is R1b in Europe. But wait, there's a lot of I2a variants wich have been found.

Think about it, the evidence says the opposite to your claims. No Paleolithic R1b in Europe, sorry.


PD: And I tell you, me and most of my family are around 60% Southwestern according to the last results, and you'd have serious difficulties to find people with lighter skin than us. Without considering other light traits, also present, as for example light eyes. But this wasn't the point as I hope you finally understood.

Goga
20-10-11, 18:54
What are you talking about? Spanish people have only 6% of hg. I! And they're one of the ancient Europeans! Basque folks are very old and they have only 5 - 5.5 % of hg. 'I'.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/4662/spanishz.jpg

http://eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


PS. I'm not speaking about the individual cases. I'm 100% pure Kurdish (Iranic) and West Asian and most of my family is whiter than Polish people. Most of my family members have very light hair, a lot of them are even RED headed! But in GENERAL Kurds are darker than Europeans (including Spaniards!).

Knovas
20-10-11, 19:01
I mean AUTOSOMAL guy. The high R1b you see is a recent replacement. A massive migration can erase haplogroups, but the previous autosomes, if significant, will still be present. That's what happened.

Don't you see it's not normal to have more R1b in Catalonia than in Ireland? Wake up, that's the clear effect of a recent replacement, at least, in comparison with the whole history dominated by others. In this case, I2a peoples.

sparkey
20-10-11, 19:02
But wait, there's a lot of I2a variants wich have been found.

Actually if you're talking the Neolithic, just some I2a1a so far, in Treilles 5000 years ago (about 1000 years after I2a1a started spreading significantly). The next we've found isn't until the Urnfield samples, which turned up I2a2b for about 3000 years ago in Germany. But this probably supports your point anyway... that ancient I2a1a carriers in particular seem to be major contributors to Southwestern European autosomal DNA.

Goga
20-10-11, 19:04
I mean AUTOSOMAL guy. The high R1b you see is a recent replacement. A massive migration can erase haplogroups, but the previous autosomes, if significant, will still be present. That's what happened.

Don't you see it's not normal to have more R1b in Catalonia than in Ireland? Wake up, that's the clear effect of a recent replacement, at least, in comparison with the whole history dominated by others. In this case, I2a peoples.
????

How can you see on AUTOSOMAL that your race belong to 'I', R1b etc. or someting.


AUTOSOMAL is not only Y-DNA, but also mtDNA!

I think that Spanish mtDNA is the same as Northern European!

Knovas
20-10-11, 19:06
Thanks sparkey, you know exactly to explain this things better. Your point is helpful.

Knovas
20-10-11, 19:10
????

How can you see on AUTOSOMAL that your race belong to 'I', R1b etc. or someting.


AUTOSOMAL is not only Y-DNA, but also mtDNA!

I think that Spanish mtDNA is the same as Northern European!
You can belong to haplogroup Q and cluster with Scandinavians. But this doesn't change the fact that autosomes are an amount of superposed haplogroups, going from a generation to another. And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?

Goga
20-10-11, 19:14
And Iberians are very likely to have a huge background of I2a peoples, like it or not.

Or do you think that autosomes grow like a mushroom in the forest?It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

Knovas
20-10-11, 19:18
Think what you want, but the haplogroup distribution several times does not match. The ancient DNA found is what really don't lie at the moment.

Good afternoon.

sparkey
20-10-11, 19:28
It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

Goga, agree or disagree with the following?: "Y-DNA is a biased marker, and Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies in a population tend to magnify the effect of later migrations on that population."

Cambrius (The Red)
20-10-11, 19:35
It doesn't matter for me what Iberians are, but I don't believe in fantasy and science fiction.

Iberian Y-DNA distribution doesn't lie and it speaks volumes! Iberians have almost no hg. 'I'! FACT!

"FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?

Goga
20-10-11, 20:01
"FACT"??? Much of what has been recently discussed contradicts what you are saying. Once more, why are you so obsessed with unfairly darkening (in every which way, it seems) Iberians? What's eating you?Do you really think that I'm a moron?

How can the Spanish hg. 'R1b' be actually hg. 'I'?

Spanish folks are very close to other Europeans because of R1b and mtDNA! mtDNA of all Europeans is almost the same and very native to Europe!

Knovas
20-10-11, 20:13
R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...

Goga
20-10-11, 20:20
R1b it's significant in autosomal results, but not the huge I2a variants are. I think it's easy to understand. And both R1b's find in Europe and I subclades are "very European" (quite redundant, but necessary to say), so of course Spaniards are similar to other Europeans. Not only for the R1b, it's the full chorus.

¿Why we should be that different for being composed mostly of I2a subclades? You have strange points man...Yes that's true. European R1b and hg. 'I' are very native European haplogroups. But native hg. 'I' carriers lived in Northern Europe while native R1b carriers lived in Southern Europe and British Islands.
According to me the original R1b carriers were darker than the original hg. 'I' carriers. Spaniards have compared to North Europeans more R1b and less of hg. 'I'. That's why they are in general somehow darker than Northern Europeans!

That's my point and nothing else!

Knovas
20-10-11, 20:24
Not all I's lived in Northern Europe. Check this thread, it's quite ilustrative: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map&p=384627#post384627

Check the sublcades in the map, specially those located in the Pyrenees and Iberia, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean.

Goga
20-10-11, 20:33
Not all I's lived in Northern Europe. Check this thread, it's quite ilustrative: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map&p=384627#post384627

Check the sublcades in the map, specially those located in the Pyrenees and Iberia, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean.Ok, thanks.

As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe ('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...

lebowsky
20-10-11, 20:36
I was in Barcelona and I was in Madrid. I live in Amsterdam and here live many Spanish people. And Spanish people in general are MUCH darker than Dutch folks. Fact!

I'm sorry that I'm not blind!

Totally agree. A lot of people have a blind faith around a mith.

sparkey
20-10-11, 20:39
Ok, thanks.

As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe...

Hmm... dating indicates that such a dispersal of I2a from Northern Europe would have had to have happened in the Paleolithic... but Northern Europe was less inhabitable then. So I'm inclined to declare this theory "unlikely."

sparkey
20-10-11, 20:41
('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...

Sorry, I started responding before you added this. Yes, it's possible that I2a dispersed from north of the Iberian Peninsula during the Paleolithic... but that doesn't really say much. I think it dispersed from east of there too at one point.... again, not saying much.

Knovas
20-10-11, 20:42
I2a1a was originated in the Pyrenees, that's quite accepted today. Enough to generate Southwestern autosomes, and no need to say others could do so too. But it's very likely for a very long time, that I2a1a peoples inhabited the Iberian Peninsula in a great number, and their autosomes survived till modern days exceedingly well, even considering the R1b irruption.

Goga
20-10-11, 20:42
Hmm... dating indicates that such a dispersal of I2a from Northern Europe would have had to have happened in the Paleolithic... but Northern Europe was less inhabitable then. So I'm inclined to declare this theory "unlikely."
Ok. But do you think that I2 is from Iberia?

sparkey
20-10-11, 20:46
Ok. But do you think that I2a is from Iberia?

We really don't have enough data to be making declarations about I2a as a whole, other than that its center of diversity is in Europe, probably Western Europe, although even that we're not 100% sure of. We can speculate about Ice Age refuges all day, but we don't really know.

It's pretty clear that I2a1a is from Southwestern Europe, though... probably Northeastern Iberia or Southwestern France. And that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe, especially in the Southwest.

Edit: You just changed it to ask if I2 is from Iberia. I2 is only a little older than I2a and we know just as little about the I2 MRCA as about the I2a MRCA.

Knovas
20-10-11, 20:49
Thanks sparkey, you are really better than me to explain this things.

Goga
20-10-11, 20:55
We really don't have enough data to be making declarations about I2a as a whole, other than that its center of diversity is in Europe, probably Western Europe, although even that we're not 100% sure of. We can speculate about Ice Age refuges all day, but we don't really know.

It's pretty clear that I2a1a is from Southwestern Europe, though... probably Northeastern Iberia or Southwestern France. And that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe, especially in the Southwest.

Edit: You just changed it to ask if I2 is from Iberia. I2 is only a little older than I2a and we know just as little about the I2 MRCA as about the I2a MRCA.Ok, I thought (and still think) that I2 is actually somewhere for the Balkans (Southeast Europe).

sparkey
20-10-11, 20:57
Thanks sparkey, you are really better than me to explain this things.

I thought you were explaining well but I'm trying things a bit different to see if I can pull Goga our direction.

By the way, I'm agreeing with you on most things, but I'm inclined to use less certain terms about the relationship between Y-DNA and autosomal DNA. I'm not convinced yet that the autosomal DNA of R1b peoples isn't an important part of the Southwestern cluster. But you've certainly been convincing about how there's a very good chance that the autosomal impact of the ancient I2a1a carriers is higher than what we see in modern Y-DNA frequency distributions. In fact, I don't see that not being the case.

sparkey
20-10-11, 21:00
Ok, I thought (and still think) that I2 is actually somewhere for the Balkans (Southeast Europe).

That was the old hat assumption based on frequency distributions. I think that it was the I2a1b1a-Din expansion confusing people. Don't get me wrong, nothing rules out the Balkans, its southern location makes it a possibility, but it's not the only possibility. I2 has too many bottlenecks to come to a good conclusion about where it was so long ago.

Goga
20-10-11, 21:58
That was the old hat assumption based on frequency distributions. I think that it was the I2a1b1a-Din expansion confusing people. Don't get me wrong, nothing rules out the Balkans, its southern location makes it a possibility, but it's not the only possibility. I2 has too many bottlenecks to come to a good conclusion about where it was so long ago.
Ok. Btw Iberians are further away on autosomal maps from Europeans that have got a lot of hg. I.
Iberians are the closest to other Celts in the area, Italians (Italo-Celtic origin) and French. Italians don't have much of hg. I either, only for about 6.5 %. While French have very much Germanic influences and that's why they have 10% of hg. I1 !!!

Iberians are not that close to East Europeans. I mean even many West Asian/Caucasian groups are closer to the East European than the Iberians are. But maybe that's because of lack of hg. R1a....

Ps. And East Europeans have in general much more of hg. 'I' than West Europeans (Celts) do!

Knovas
20-10-11, 22:11
You are twisting things and falling in the same error again. Check the Euro7 spreadsheet and think that I2a1a* people could have a huge relevance between both French and Italians, like happens in Iberians at the highest level.

Quoting sparkey: that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe.

Haplogroup distribution often gives a false impresion, or in other words, don't tell all things. And you still have it as the greatest truth. Open your mind.

Goga
20-10-11, 22:20
Quoting sparkey: that's the subclade that seems to have been the the most common during the Neolithic in Europe.
At some points I do agree with him. But about I2 is being a major hg. in Iberia before the Neolithic is nothing more but pure SPECULATION!

I do trully believe that hg. 'I' was very common in Eastern (among Slavic nations), Northern (Scandinavia) and Southeastern Europe (Balkans). But NOT in Iberia and British Islands.

I'm not convinced and I want to see evidences first!

Goga
20-10-11, 22:24
If R1b is younger than hg. 'I' in Western Europe, then is R1b not European AT ALL. But migrated only 3000-4000 years ago from Asia. Via the Pontic Steppes (also in Asia) from Anatolia.

This would mean that Celts are actually ASIAN in origin, and this doesn't make any sense to me!

Celts are NOT the most Asian people in Europe! According to me they are actually the 'oldest' Europeans!

Knovas
20-10-11, 22:43
But guy, the R1b subclades among them are found exclusively in Europe, so they "evolved" to European, and that's what they are. ¿Why do you care about R1b as whole when the subclades are more important?

Most K linages (but this is MtDNA), as for example mine, are also exclusive for Europe. K is also very young and originated in the Near East, but this doesn't mean all clades must imply autosomes associated to the mentioned region.

So not the oldest people in Europe, that's what's really speculation since, again, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe so far.

PD: Buf! my god.

Goga
20-10-11, 23:00
But guy, the R1b subclades among them are found exclusively in Europe, so they "evolved" to European, and that's what they are. ¿Why do you care about R1b as whole when the subclades are more important?

Most K linages (but this is MtDNA), as for example mine, are also exclusive for Europe. K is also very young and originated in the Near East, but this doesn't mean all clades must imply autosomes associated to the mentioned region.

So not the oldest people in Europe, that's what's really speculation since, again, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe so far.

PD: Buf! my god.Lol, you have got very weird and crazy ideas/fantasies.

How can a haplogroup evolve to 'European' lol. Hocus pocus and it's European, African etc. now.

A haplogroup can evolve IN a region, but not into something, lol!

People with a particular haplogroups are from a specific region if they migrate to other regions they mix with other native haplogroups.


How lng must a haplogroup live in the region to become native?

How long must R1* or J* be in USA to become native American?

Knovas
20-10-11, 23:08
The fact is haplogroups change, and if their subclades are found exclusively in a region, just start thinking. I think it's easy, ¿where do you see the difficulty?

Goga
20-10-11, 23:15
The fact is haplogroups change, and if their subclades are found exclusively in a region, just start thinking. I think it's easy, ¿where do you see the difficulty?
I do understand you. But I don't agree with you!

Drac II
21-10-11, 04:59
No, I'm not obsessed with Iberians. The thing is if WE ALL speak the truth we will find the real truth very fast! But due to twisting of facts by some people the whole thing became very confusing.

Iberians ARE Europeans and they look very European, but in general they are 'dark' Europeans and compared to Dutch people, Scandinavians etc. they have got very 'schwartie' features!

Yes, but those people you mentioned just happen to be the most depigmented Europeans, so of course Spaniards in general are "darker" than them.

zanipolo
21-10-11, 07:52
Ok, thanks.

As fas as I do understand hg. I2a never fully entered into the Iberian Peninsula and never fully established there. And that I2a came actually from other 'Northern' location in Europe ('northern' compared to the Iberian Peninsula)...

I agree in that it never fully entered, meaning in a large % of population to decimate the original HG.
I recently found this map
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg
and it indicates the various I HG . then again this is year 5000BC

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

Knovas
21-10-11, 12:53
And still with the same...I2a1a it's very clear to have been in Southern France or North Iberia since the begining, so ¿who cares if it fully entered or not? It's enough to generate Southwestern autosomes.

¿Wich do you think is the genetic composition of the Southern French? It's practically the same as Northeast Iberians! come on.

Again, it doesn't mean anything that you don't see a huge percent of this haplogroup, since a massive recent replacement can erase it easily. But the full genome is another thing, not that easy to be replaced. And if you are interested, there's a hot spot in Aragón with a substantial percent according to Eupedia. For sure after Sardinia (genetic isolate, don't forget it), it's the largest you can find in all Europe. Not casual, I don't think so.

Cambrius (The Red)
21-10-11, 13:23
Some people just don't understand (despite the obvious) things or they refuse to acknowledge reality.

zanipolo
21-10-11, 20:32
I agree in that it never fully entered, meaning in a large % of population to decimate the original HG.
I recently found this map
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg
and it indicates the various I HG . then again this is year 5000BC

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_and_Ancient_European_Migrations.pdf

zanipolo
21-10-11, 20:33
Some people just don't understand (despite the obvious) things or they refuse to acknowledge reality.


wow .................very deep ............trying to find the obvious, no luck though

zanipolo
21-10-11, 20:39
And still with the same...I2a1a it's very clear to have been in Southern France or North Iberia since the begining, so ¿who cares if it fully entered or not? It's enough to generate Southwestern autosomes.
true


¿Wich do you think is the genetic composition of the Southern French? It's practically the same as Northeast Iberians! come on.Ligurians as per bell beaker results


Again, it doesn't mean anything that you don't see a huge percent of this haplogroup, since a massive recent replacement can erase it easily. But the full genome is another thing, not that easy to be replaced. And if you are interested, there's a hot spot in Aragón with a substantial percent according to Eupedia. For sure after Sardinia (genetic isolate, don't forget it), it's the largest you can find in all Europe. Not casual, I don't think so.The 10 map link I presented has some with population migration numbers. With these numbers we do not know what & it represents as we do not know the original population.
But we can still figure out was the the other HG when we already know that HG I was the migratiing HG

zanipolo
21-10-11, 20:43
Yes, but those people you mentioned just happen to be the most depigmented Europeans, so of course Spaniards in general are "darker" than them.

Unless you know something I do not know , then realise that de-pigamentation works one way , it always lightens.

So, the whole world's people at one time could have been a darker skin colour , mongolonians still have a darkish skin even eskimos and they live in colder areas

Knovas
21-10-11, 21:01
Iberia was the main refuge for humans during the last glacial age. Pretending no haplogroup I entered and lived in the Peninsula for a very long time, sorry, but it's plain absurd. Totally unlikely, and much more considering the apreciable presence of I2a1a* among the Pyrenees (around 8% according to 23andmme) and the Aragonese hot spot mentioned here in Eupedia.

¿Why is so difficult to accept that I2a1a* and probably other similar clades had a huge impact in the Iberian autosomes? ¿For the R1b? It's time to wake up, this is much more recent.

Look at the amount of I2a1a* Sardinians have, and then check their autosomes in the recent calculator. They don't get in any case the high Southwestern apreciable in Iberians (more evident if we check Northeast Iberians), and the reason seems very clear. This haplogroup is recent there in comparison with others, so it's impossible to expect the same impact in the full genome. Exactly what happens in the case of R1b for Iberians, although it's still significant while checking the Northwestern.

Well, I though this new points were necessary to consider too.

Goga
21-10-11, 21:34
¿Why is so difficult to accept that I2a1a* and probably other similar clades had a huge impact in the Iberian autosomes? ¿For the R1b? It's time to wake up, this is much more recent.
If R1b arrived much later haplogroups J and E would make even more impact in the Spanish autosomes since there is even more of hg. J and E in Spanish population.

there's 9.5 % of J* , 7 % of hg. E and 7 % of hg. 'I'. Hg. 'E' would make at least the same impact on the Spanish DNA!

If R1b arrived much later that would make Basques the youngest (the most recent arrived) population in Europe, since they have the most of R1b.

The question is this serious to even consider that? Only very confused folks believe that Basques are not the ancient but the youngest folks in Europe, LOL!

Knovas
21-10-11, 21:53
They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.

Goga
21-10-11, 22:10
They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.Just imagine Spanish Y-DNA distribution without R1b!

If R1b arrived into Iberia as the LAST haplogroup even after J2, in Iberia would be very much hg. J*, E and 'I'.

There is more hg. J* than 'I' in Iberia.
Before R1b, Spanish Y-DNA distribution would look like this:

33% = J*
27% = E
27% = I


They do consider R1b as SouthWest European haplogroup, that's why Spain has not so much of Asian admixture on dodecad. But according some people here is R1b not European at all, but from somewhere else.
I don't agree with this assumption! This doesn't make any sense! I truly believe that R1b is a native SouthWest European (Celtic) haplogroup!

According to me Spanish folks are the purest Celts in Europe!

But they're not INDO-European at all, only European!

Knovas
21-10-11, 22:15
If R1b arrived much later haplogroups J and E would make even more impact in the Spanish autosomes since there is even more of hg. J and E in Spanish population.
In the Northeast there's sure more I2a1a* than J and E, wich is the likely place of origin. Most J is probably of Roman origin (that means VERY recent), while I guess the E has been almost totally replaced being surrounded by many peoples in the whole history. I think very back in time E peoples were very dominant in Galicia and close populations, but I2a1a and then R1b's as well as others, finally replaced it. But as haplogroup has survived quite good, that's true.

Goga
21-10-11, 22:21
In the Northeast there's sure more I2a1a* than J and E, wich is the likely place of origin. Most J is probably of Roman origin (that means VERY recent), while I guess the E has been almost totally replaced being surrounded by many peoples in the whole history. I think very back in time E peoples were very dominant in Galicia and close populations, but I2a1a and then R1b's as well as others, finally replaced it. But as haplogroup has survived quite good, that's true.
Here is too much assumption with very much if if if if etc without any evidence.

I'll not repeat myself, just read my previous post (#91) again.

Btw, the very first Indo-Europeans were not European at all, but Eurasian at the first place...

Knovas
21-10-11, 22:28
And again, as I said, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe (and I don't expect to find some of the modern clades in ancient samples). So, sorry, but for the moment your thoughts need some support, and the most important is absent.

Goga
21-10-11, 22:34
And again, as I said, no ancient R1b has been found in Europe (and I don't expect to find some of the modern clades in ancient samples). So, sorry, but for the moment your thoughts need some support, and the most important is absent.
No the last English paper (study) supports my thoughts, many Western scientists think the same as I do and according to them Europeans are not INDO-European at all.

My believes are well founded (by others), while your thougts are very childish and contradict with each other.

What you're saying is very wild and crazy fantasy and science fiction. According to you hg. E & J* was first in Iberia, then got replaced by hg. 'I' and hg. 'I' got later replaced by R1b.

ARE YOU SERIOUS and FOR REAL !?

Buddy, you're wrong. You're not that SPECIAL one as you think you are!

Goga
21-10-11, 22:39
With all due respect, but for me it's very difficult to discuss with someone who's in denial. I'm done with you!

Knovas
21-10-11, 22:42
Guy, theres no point supporting J is ancient in Iberia, that's something you already invented. Romans had a lot of it, so it's very likely they were the ones who brought it (vast majority), that's what I SAID. You are the only one who believe in fantasies, and starts lying putting false words in my mouth. No need to say more, I have to go now.

Good night.

zanipolo
22-10-11, 00:37
They speak the oldest language, that not means they must be genetically the oldest (at least, actual Basques). No way, think about it.

¿What are you saying about J and E? British also have a lot of R1b and surely it's what they mostly are autosomally speaking, and they have low extra-euro admixtures. Well, they show around 7% West Asian, while Spaniards don't. Don't know if this tells you something or not with such strange thoughts.

True what you say about basques, but apart from having one of the oldest languages in Spain, they also have the oldest Hg I in Spain

Knovas
22-10-11, 13:35
The same old as the rest of Iberians, but according to the latest data, Aragonese have more than them. We are refering to I2a1a* in the vast majority of cases, that's the subclade both have.

¿Or you are refering to a very Paleolithic form of I found only in a measurable percent among them? I'd like to see the source if that's the case, although the dominant clade is the one I already mentioned. Don't know about the relevance of this.

oreo_cookie
22-10-11, 21:39
Why does everything always go back to talking about Iberian genetics on all forums I visit? Is it that controversial of a topic?

zanipolo
22-10-11, 21:52
The same old as the rest of Iberians, but according to the latest data, Aragonese have more than them. We are refering to I2a1a* in the vast majority of cases, that's the subclade both have.

¿Or you are refering to a very Paleolithic form of I found only in a measurable percent among them? I'd like to see the source if that's the case, although the dominant clade is the one I already mentioned. Don't know about the relevance of this.

You might be right about aragonese, but old aragonese linguistically was a mix of basque and ( more of ) catalan. they could have come from basques and gone through navarre and then settled in aragon area or in reverse in ancient times

oreo_cookie
24-10-11, 03:54
Anyone else want to vote on the poll or post pictures?

oreo_cookie
23-11-11, 00:16
Lebanese

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2008/06/08/harb%20boutros%203.jpghttp://www.timeoutdubai.com/images/content/lebanese_dubai/innerbig/lebanis_2_innerbig.jpghttp://www.freewebs.com/eliastannous/153672.jpghttp://www.globaleye.org.uk/secondary_spring06/eyeon/images/youngpeople.jpghttp://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/middle_east_views_from_hariri_rally_in_beirut/img/2.jpghttp://www.cfr.org/content/publications/images/makdisi.jpg

jurrian
30-11-11, 12:56
iberians and italians, i think. PS: oreo_cookie, I love your polls about similarities between europeans and north-africans/levantines. They are more illuminating that those cold and numeric threads about genetic maps and autosomal studies. IMO. Racial reality is more about what your eyes perceive.

Knovas
30-11-11, 13:06
Ok.

Then I perceive you are Canek. Reality ;)

5388


PD: For more you repeat, opinions and personal apreciations haven't got the same value as genetic studies. Sorry.

Morover: if one hasn't got any opinion, all words are useless. Interesting point I think.

Carlos
26-02-12, 18:54
iberians and italians, i think. PS: oreo_cookie, I love your polls about similarities between europeans and north-africans/levantines. They are more illuminating that those cold and numeric threads about genetic maps and autosomal studies. IMO. Racial reality is more about what your eyes perceive.


From my point of view and if they are Lebanese Arabic unscented seem much more like the Italians that the Iberians. The Iberians on numerous occasions as a wildcard for all the Mediterranean but do not think it is easy to identify with anyone.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRro6oJ1XOETI-l6---vcwWFWkySZcX8YNurrOv6PbNyoVLPbmYPPRTU8Wknw

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnq97fk4G3XkKsHtnIR9bvwsD3j34zU 3CIhF9MEy4eUBdKumhdpQ&t=1

Laura Muñoz, this woman such as my point of view embodies the very essence Iberian this strange form of eyes (I do not mean color that can be an accident) I have seen much in the Spanish Levante region of Valencia, Murcia to Almeria and one province in eastern Andalusia.

She seems to be the sister of the Lady of Elche, fearless and insurmountable scans the present from the distant past. I honestly do not see any resemblance to any other place in the Mediterranean.

julia90
28-02-12, 00:41
many can pass without problems in southern europe.. though as a group they are certainly more dark on percentage

wormhole
13-08-12, 06:35
Greeks, Sicilians, Maltese, Cypriots. Some Southern Italians could in theory as well I guess, but not many.

However, LOTS of Levantines have Euro admixture and are genetically close to Europeans, this is nothing new and nothing to worry about.

MOESAN
13-08-12, 16:03
They look very Arabic to me and that's who they're: Arabs.

I disagree! some of them "look" arab, not the majority: they are often more sturdy of body, and show different bracycephalic influences that are very rare among true Arabs: their faces often evocates influences from Anatolia or Caucasus: history of this "carrefour" -

Alexandros
17-02-13, 16:28
Being a Cypriot, I would also agree that a substantial part of Cypriots would classify as Levantines. There are others however that would definitely classify as south Europeans (i.e. Italians, south French, etc) and even north European (check Maciamo's distribution of Y-Hg by country to see the considerable frequencies of R1 and I). This applies even more to Greeks and Italians. It is a bit ridiculous to claim that 'Greeks' and 'Italians' classify as Levantines. Some Northern Greeks could be mistaken for Russian, German, even Scandinavian for example. The same goes for Northern Italians (ok maybe not Russian, i.e. low R1a frequencies). You have to bear in mind that some modern ethnic groups are much more diverse genetically and phenotypically (i.e. Greeks, Italians) than others (i.e. British and Scandinavians).

MOESAN
20-02-13, 12:58
With all due respect but Kurds in general do not look like Europeans (and Europeans do not look like Kurds). Kurds are Iranic peoples that look like other Iranic people in Asia & Caucasus. Overall Kurds do look like some Caucasian folks from the Caucasus and Iranic folks in West and Central Asia.

The folks from the Levant speak Arabic and are also cultural and in appearance Arabs. If they ain't no Arabic who are??

sorry GOga but I don't agree at all
1- all Kurds regions have not the same metric means
2- but as a whole the most of them show the same means
3- Kurds are more mesocephalic than semitic Middel-Easterners and than persic Iranians, as a whole: they show typically a "european-like" trend , brachycephalic: 2 sorts: 'alpinoid' + 'dinaroid', at high level - among the dolichocephalic element, different subtypes of 'mediterranean', someones closer to the Yemen type, some others more 'western mediterranean, someones more on the so called 'indo-afghan' type -
4- in details, they show a little bit more (even if light enough yet) of depigmented nordic-like element, and on another side, a litlle bit of what seams a not well defined darker skinned element of Indian origin ('veddoid' influence upon 'indo-afghan'???)
5- it is principally this "indian" element that for me differentiate them from Armenians.
&: partially depigmented populations exist too among the Lurs / Luri (I lack details about the history of these last ones)
my conclusion: NO, Kurds are not identical to Iranians, and they are also different enough from Middel-Easterners, and close enough to Armenians
just my thoughts about external phenotypical features, that stay to be linked to genetic concealed structures (autosomals)
have a good day

MOESAN
20-02-13, 13:02
the Jordanians types I saw on these photos (pictures) show also (as some Palestinians) differencies compared to true "arabic" tribes (as Yemen bedwins of ancient times): common elements but too foreign elements from North (2000 BC?) -
concerning Lebanon, I do'nt believe they are pure descendants of Phoenicians

adamo
13-04-13, 00:43
The Europeans that overlap the most with levantines are definitely Italians and Greeks, Sicilians, Cretans an Cypriots being the "leaders" if you will lollll. Also many Albanians, Bulgarians and certain Spanish, Portuguese and Romanians. About 20% of Italians and Greeks are haplogroup J2, which originated in the Middle East. Although Sicilians have 25-28% with some studies showing ad high as 30%. Cretans and Cypriots have about ten percent higher with 37-40% J2 on both those islands. Wow, the mediterranean islands sure do have much Neolithic genetic impact from middle Eastern farming agriculturalists and/or later greek colonization impact. Bulgarians and rRomanians have about 15-20% J2 I believe or Romania may have slightly more. Spaniards and Portuguese also have J2 impact, but on a national level, at about half the frequencies found in Italy and Greece (10 or so percent) with certain "hotspot" areas of 15-20%, but in total Iberia has on national levels more like 10%.

adamo
13-04-13, 00:54
Also, if you consider the haplogroup E impact In Middle East as indicative of Levantine people's, which to a lesser degree it is, then all the nations I said above plus Serbs, I forgot Macedonians.... There is 25-30% E in these regions, 25% E in Sicily, much less in crete, about 25% E in Cyprus, national level 11% mainland Italy, 25% Albania, 25% or so Bulgaria, 25-30% Greece, levels are higher in south Italy 20-25% but I would say more like 20, 20% certain regions of Spain/Portugal but 15% on national levels.....also haplogroup T is found in I would say 5-7% of Levantine populations, it's highest in Europe in Cyprus around 5%, south Italy 5%, Greece 4% etc.

adamo
13-04-13, 23:10
I can not overstate how much higher Italians should be in terms of Levantine blood on this polls...Italians should be WAY up there with Greeks, even more so possibly and just behind Sicilians, Cypriots and MalteseMaltese

Alan
05-10-13, 13:26
The Europeans that overlap the most with levantines are definitely Italians and Greeks, Sicilians, Cretans an Cypriots being the "leaders" if you will lollll. Also many Albanians, Bulgarians and certain Spanish, Portuguese and Romanians. About 20% of Italians and Greeks are haplogroup J2, which originated in the Middle East. Although Sicilians have 25-28% with some studies showing ad high as 30%. Cretans and Cypriots have about ten percent higher with 37-40% J2 on both those islands. Wow, the mediterranean islands sure do have much Neolithic genetic impact from middle Eastern farming agriculturalists and/or later greek colonization impact. Bulgarians and rRomanians have about 15-20% J2 I believe or Romania may have slightly more. Spaniards and Portuguese also have J2 impact, but on a national level, at about half the frequencies found in Italy and Greece (10 or so percent) with certain "hotspot" areas of 15-20%, but in total Iberia has on national levels more like 10%.

J1 as a whole is not connected to darker features. Dargins in the Caucasus are J1 and they are lighter than Lebanese. Only J1c3d in connection with Southwest Asian autosomal DNA could be.

Yaan
05-10-13, 20:08
Europeans that share some overlap with them are Cypriots and Maltese, maybe some island greeks and Sicilians. Haplogorup E means nothing, in the Balkan and Europe is the European E-V13 in the Levant is mostly E-V22 and E-M123. Also some people here have no knowledge at all what have y DNA to do with look nothing. R1b is from Anadola!End of story. Such threats are a big joke
Also overlap is because South Europe is mostly the old civilizations, while Levant is old civilization mixed with Arabs, South Slavs are old civilizations mixed with Slavs etc.etc.
Also stop putting us Bulgarians everywhere in these stupid threats. Most of u have not seen Bulgarian person in their life. Americans think if u are not North European u r not European,this is a joke. Iberians always try to insult Balkan people in order to feel more secure about themselves and West Europeans do not know nothing about Bulgaria or think that the Gypsies and Turks with Bulgarian passports are Bulgarians.:embarassed:

Yaan
05-10-13, 20:10
If we base our opinion of a nation on some minorities then all these " Dutch" people I see called Mustafa are pretty North African looking to me

American Idiot
20-11-13, 14:10
Lebanese

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4339637034_6700e6f058_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4338894237_df96e87a23_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4339636574_f6c34e98ec_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2683/4339636432_4d1a629a72_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2728/4338893793_d9fbc07e8d_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4338893723_8ded97061d_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2724/4339636154_120cd387a6_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2689/4339636038_7b4461b75b_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2767/4338893145_4549bc7fc7_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4338892879_19ea1789f2_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2789/4338892497_cf7e29171e_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2720/4338892237_aaa12ff7f3_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4339634930_26927e3ca2_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2796/4338891811_68e89b4952_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2790/4339634280_62217316d6_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4338891551_b3f30d61ab_m.jpg

still a bit misleading as about 1/4 of all the people of Lebanon look lighter than this and have lighter eyes too. and I am speaking from actual experience, not just photos I see on the web.

MtDNA
25-10-14, 14:58
It depends on how they overlap. Levantinces are made up of many previous races which merged and blended.
If you are talking about semitic influence, from the way of the Jews, there is Germany, Austria, Serbia, Poland, etc.
If you are talking about the "MtDNA-H" holder influence, there is England, France, Spain, and the royalty of other countries.
If you are talking about shared Turkish influence, there is Russia, Poland, Croatia, Bosnia, and Hungary.
If you are talking about Meditaranian influence, there is Greece, Sardinia, Italy, and Malta.

albanopolis
26-10-14, 23:05
Obviously Southern Europeans overlap genetically more than Northerns with Levantines. But no one in Europe is free Levantine lineages,

Alan
29-10-14, 15:51
sorry GOga but I don't agree at all
1- all Kurds regions have not the same metric means
2- but as a whole the most of them show the same means
3- Kurds are more mesocephalic than semitic Middel-Easterners and than persic Iranians, as a whole: they show typically a "european-like" trend , brachycephalic: 2 sorts: 'alpinoid' + 'dinaroid', at high level - among the dolichocephalic element, different subtypes of 'mediterranean', someones closer to the Yemen type, some others more 'western mediterranean, someones more on the so called 'indo-afghan' type -
4- in details, they show a little bit more (even if light enough yet) of depigmented nordic-like element, and on another side, a litlle bit of what seams a not well defined darker skinned element of Indian origin ('veddoid' influence upon 'indo-afghan'???)
5- it is principally this "indian" element that for me differentiate them from Armenians.
&: partially depigmented populations exist too among the Lurs / Luri (I lack details about the history of these last ones)
my conclusion: NO, Kurds are not identical to Iranians, and they are also different enough from Middel-Easterners, and close enough to Armenians
just my thoughts about external phenotypical features, that stay to be linked to genetic concealed structures (autosomals)
have a good day

Genetically speaking there is no "Verddoid impact on Kurds. on Avergae Kurds score ~1% of ASI in admixture runs like Dodecad. Persians score 4% but even that is rather too irrelevant (relevance starts at 5% for me) to show any signs of Onge like phenotypes.

I even assume that these "ASI" percentages are in fact those ANE genes which have contributed into the making of ASI. What you take as "Onge" like influence is actually what I would consider as Proto ANE like influence from South_Central Asia. Since the ANE influence in Kurds and Iranians is on average 5-8% higher than in Semite Speakers. But than you will also be able to find Semites and Armenian speakers with this ANE like appearance.

Also those "Nordic" looking people could be the result of the North European component which is higher in Iranic speaking groups of West Asia in comparision to Semitic speaking people. But than I doubt that all light eyed and haired individuals are the result of this admixture. Since Syriacs/Assyrians do have quite some light eyed and haired individuals despite close to 0% North European.


What I have realized however is that in Iranic speaking groups in difference to Central Semite tribes, is that some of these light featured individuals have pseudo North or East European characteristics.
To show what I mean.

light haired

Syriac
68016802

Kurd
68036804


Iranian/Persian
6805

Hope this makes clear what I mean.


But on a whole as Goga said these light featured individuals can be seen as locals anyways since we can't divide Europe and Western Asia solely based on few components. West Asian component is as much part of the European genetic landscape as North European is part of the West Asian genetic landscape. It is the frequency what makes the difference between those too regions. Also the "North European" in Western Asia is almost completely of the Eastern (ANE) derived variant and lacks the Western (WHG) derived genes.

If we go by that old (and probably outdated) cephalic index measurement. I would say from own appearance most Kurds would be mesocephalic with ~40% as you said, ~30% Dolichocephalic and ~30% brachycephalic.

Genetically speaking Kurds are between the Iranian_Anatolian_Georgian axis while Armenians between the Levantine-Anatolian-Georgian axis. It's not an (non existing) Veddoid element that differentiates Kurds from Armenians. It is the fact that Kurds have higher levels of ANE and some weaker levels of Early European farmer DNA.

Mars
21-11-14, 12:19
still a bit misleading as about 1/4 of all the people of Lebanon look lighter than this and have lighter eyes too. and I am speaking from actual experience, not just photos I see on the web.
I don't know many levantines actually, except some kebab retailers in my hometown (no offence, sincerely). I think the people posted in this thread could overlap with the most "extreme" mediterranean looking individuals one could find in most southern european countries. But a typical southern italian/balkanite/iberian etc. usually displays different features, due to the ancient Hunter-Gatherer component, I guess, or different forms of genetic adaptation.
These syrians and lebanese are probably more similar to the ancient farmers, even if these populations probably mixed with more components during this long time in history.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 15:42
I don't know many levantines actually, except some kebab retailers in my hometown (no offence, sincerely). I think the people posted in this thread could overlap with the most "extreme" mediterranean looking individuals one could find in most southern european countries. But a typical southern italian/balkanite/iberian etc. usually displays different features, due to the ancient Hunter-Gatherer component, I guess, or different forms of genetic adaptation.
These syrians and lebanese are probably more similar to the ancient farmers, even if these populations probably mixed with more components during this long time in history.
Probably some high classe of the levant can pass as south europeans especially the lebanese.
Very rarely palestinians for example pass in south Europe.