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julia90
07-10-11, 01:25
Some videos, of an ancient brotherhood


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDFXqCgOZvQ

Alexandros
17-02-13, 10:47
Great post Julia. Sorry for keep replying in all your posts. I am not a weirdo.. It just happens that every post that gets my attention in this forum is posted from you..

I find the Griko dialect of southern Italy particularly fascinating. You should also know that the legacy of Magna Graecia is reflected in the substantial Greek genetic blueprint in modern day south Italians. Check the genetic forums of this site for more info..

kamani
17-02-13, 21:19
Interesting video. It sort of made me think of the ancient division between north and south italy and the south always trying to have parallel incognito government structures through the mafia/camorra. On the same line maybe is the fact that the republic of venice and the byzantine empire were always trying to destroy each-other.

oreo_cookie
18-02-13, 18:54
Great post Julia. Sorry for keep replying in all your posts. I am not a weirdo.. It just happens that every post that gets my attention in this forum is posted from you..

I find the Griko dialect of southern Italy particularly fascinating. You should also know that the legacy of Magna Graecia is reflected in the substantial Greek genetic blueprint in modern day south Italians. Check the genetic forums of this site for more info..

Some southern Italians (eastern Sicilians, Calabrese, Lucanians) probably have more ancient Greek ancestry than some mainland Greeks, due to Slavic and Albanian influence in the latter! On some genetic charts Greeks end up pulled north into the Balkans.

Alexandros
23-02-13, 15:05
Yes, indeed!

Dianatomia
24-02-13, 09:32
Some southern Italians (eastern Sicilians, Calabrese, Lucanians) probably have more ancient Greek ancestry than some mainland Greeks, due to Slavic and Albanian influence in the latter! On some genetic charts Greeks end up pulled north into the Balkans.

Yes indeed some do, but don't forget that Southern Italy was colonized by Greeks from specific regions like Eubia and the Peloponnese. Italy did not have a major influx of Ancient Greeks from Macedonia and Thrace. Today some Greeks from those regions tend to cluster closer to other Balkanians.

I am of the opinion that there must have been some variety in Ancient Greece too. Some Ancient Greeks from the north would also be close to other non-Greek Balkanian (Paeonian, Thracian) tribes who lived close to the Greek world. So it I think it is a two way street, some Greeks cluster closter to other Balkanians due to some Slavic influence, but also because the Greeks in these localities always clustered closer to the ancestors of those people before they were later Sclavinized.

zanipolo
24-02-13, 11:44
Yes indeed some do, but don't forget that Southern Italy was colonized by Greeks from specific regions like Eubia and the Peloponnese. Italy did not have a major influx of Ancient Greeks from Macedonia and Thrace. Today some Greeks from those regions tend to cluster closer to other Balkanians.

I am of the opinion that there must have been some variety in Ancient Greece too. Some Ancient Greeks from the north would also be close to other non-Greek Balkanian (Paeonian, Thracian) tribes who lived close to the Greek world. So it I think it is a two way street, some Greeks cluster closter to other Balkanians due to some Slavic influence, but also because the Greeks in these localities always clustered closer to the ancestors of those people before they were later Sclavinized.

I am interested in this Greek settlement of Sicily and Calabria, as I have always read that these Greeks are Corinthian Greek. Corinth owned the northern part of the Peloponnese and the southern part of Boeotia...basically both sides of the Corinthian gulf .

Euboea is an island in the Aegean sea ,usually inhabited by Ionians from Athens region. It seems strange for ionions to inhabit the same new areas as the Corinthians, especially since they where rivals

Do you have a link for euboea?

Anthro-inclined
24-02-13, 19:10
We All Know Of The Relativley Recent Greek Settlement Of South Italy, But Honestly If We Look At The Similar Frequencies Of Mtdna And Even To A Certain Extent, Ydna It Seems That The Connection Goes Back To Prehistoric Times And At Least The Early Neolithic. My Theory On Why The Genetic Landscape Of These Countries Is So Similar, Is That The Early Neolthic Migrations And Into The The Bronze Age, Followed All The Same Route, Satring In Anatolia And Gojng To Greece And Possibly Heading Across The Adriatic Directly From Greece. Of Course This Cant Be Universal To All Haplogroups But I Can See G,J2,J1,T And Possibly Others. Cant Prove This As Its Just A Theory, But Its Interesting Just Thinking About The Correlations.

Yetos
24-02-13, 20:10
Yes indeed some do, but don't forget that Southern Italy was colonized by Greeks from specific regions like Eubia and the Peloponnese. Italy did not have a major influx of Ancient Greeks from Macedonia and Thrace. Today some Greeks from those regions tend to cluster closer to other Balkanians.

I am of the opinion that there must have been some variety in Ancient Greece too. Some Ancient Greeks from the north would also be close to other non-Greek Balkanian (Paeonian, Thracian) tribes who lived close to the Greek world. So it I think it is a two way street, some Greeks cluster closter to other Balkanians due to some Slavic influence, but also because the Greeks in these localities always clustered closer to the ancestors of those people before they were later Sclavinized.

although most of Magna Grecia colonies were South Greece that is not a rule in population,

for example Κυμη (Cymae) created colony above Napoli,
Κυμη used the one we call today Latin Alphabet,
κυμη although seems to be in south Greece were N Greek population,
exonym Greek is given to Hellenes by Italians after Cymae colonie
as also Tanagra and other cities named in Homer, (Γραιοι)
Besides Dorians do no not belong to South Greek population but to North (Thessalians-Τρικαιοι),
so it is difficult to say that Lokris and Doris and their colonies like Epizefyreian Lokri for example are south Greek population.

Yet the Truth is that Makedonians mainly colonise Cyprus, minor Asia and Black Sea Thrace, and did not force to settle in south Italy.
But Dorians belong to N Greek populations which moved south following Temenides fate.
that was the reason why Alexander did not burn Sparta.

Boss
24-02-13, 20:11
Great post Julia. Sorry for keep replying in all your posts. I am not a weirdo.. It just happens that every post that gets my attention in this forum is posted from you..

I find the Griko dialect of southern Italy particularly fascinating. You should also know that the legacy of Magna Graecia is reflected in the substantial Greek genetic blueprint in modern day south Italians. Check the genetic forums of this site for more info..

I doubt very much that there is substantial Greek genetic blueprint in modern day south Italians. I think Julia was referring to historical and maybe cultural connections (though again I doubt that the latter are significant nowadays).

Kalliopi
04-03-13, 07:21
Hi!:) Eubeoa is the second largest island in Greece, in area and in population. It lies very close to the mainland and is easy to access. My grandmother was from Eubeoa....it's a beautiful place.

julia90
29-04-13, 23:31
well, some northern italians can have ancient greek inflence and looks too, there was a greek colony in Ancona (central italy) and in Adria (between emilia and veneto), in addiction byzantine ruled over romagna (in northern italy for along time).. see the basilica of Santa Apollinare in Classe (many romagnols have south eastern european look.. think of Laura Pausini from Romagna)
Laura pausini could be easily greek!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Laura_Pausini1_adjusted.jpg/200px-Laura_Pausini1_adjusted.jpg

Puls the venetian repubblic had intense relationship with the eastern mediterranean and egean sea.. many people from the egean sea lived in venice.

Puls central italy, etruria, had relationship and peopling with colons from the egean sea, the etrurscans (called sea people or pelasgians)

adamo
30-04-13, 03:41
Italians have at least two forms of middle eastern substratum among them, ancient directly middle eastern J2 from the Neolithic ( Etruscans of turkey/Armenia are a good example of this) and J2 brought to southern Italy via the greek colonizers of Magna Grecia, but one must keep in mind that these Achaean and Ionian colonizers, these pelasgians, once arrived in Greece from the Middle East anyways; the first Achaeans where settled around Cyprus near southeastern turkey and Syria, the Ionians sons of "Javan" are speculated to be linked to Phrygians/thracians ( Armenians). Eventually, if we look back far enough, all this J2 is assyrio-Mesopotamian in origin, travelling via Armenian colonizers to Greek districts ad crete and subsequently from Greece areas/Crete to Italy.

Nobody1
30-04-13, 03:58
I doubt very much that there is substantial Greek genetic blueprint in modern day south Italians. I think Julia was referring to historical and maybe cultural connections (though again I doubt that the latter are significant nowadays).

Dont know about South Italians, but Sicilians still have a genetic impact/link with Greeks based on the ancient colonies of Magna Graecia.

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18685561/

The lineage E3b1a2-V13 13-13-30-24-10-11-13, which is typical of the Greek and southern Balkan regions, is present in the eastern side of the island and, together with the more general presence of the E3b1a2-V13 lineages, supports the presence of a common genetic heritage shared by the Sicilians and the Greeks.
The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37%
The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era.

So the Genetic link (~37%) between Sicilians and Greeks is due to the Historical link
(Syracuse / Naxos (Taormina) / Valley of the Temples etc.) of Magna Graecia.

R.J. King [Stanford Uni.] was also part of the Di Gaetano et al 2009 study;
R.J. King did an equally revealing study about the ancient Greek genetic impact of the Provence, South France.

King et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

However, this increase in Y-chromosome admixture from Greece is in accord with the recent results from Sicily, which estimated a 37% Greece input, in accordance with the demographic estimate of [18 (Beloch), 19 (Scheidel)].

Nobody1
30-04-13, 04:03
well, some northern italians can have ancient greek inflence and looks too,

Strictly Anthropologically of the Caucasoid sub-races [Nordic - Mediterranean - Alpine - Armenoid]

What you call "Greek looks" seems like Medit.-Dinaric.

North Italy is much more Brachycephalic (Alpine / Dinaric) than the South;
South Italy is more Dolichocephalic (Mediterranid)

http://imageshack.us/a/img694/4074/biasutti.jpg

There is however also a strong Mediterranid element in North Italy; Proper but also mixed Medit.-Alpine / Medit.-Dinaric

Eickstedt -
note the Caucasoid racial elements
in N. Italy = Ostisch (Alpine) / Dinarisch (Dinaric) / Westisch (Medit.) / Nordic minority element
in S. Italy & Sicily = Mediterranid
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/eickrassen.jpg

Caucasoid sub-races in Italy:

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png

Naples - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img849/5936/23254114.png

Calabria - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/7128/calabria1.png

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5714/sicily1.PNG

Piedmont - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/8110/74860550.png

Lombardy - Borreby (Alpine) - [Carleton S. Coon - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img259/6971/87278453.png

Latium - Alpine - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img802/4374/alpinelatium.png

Veneto - Noric (Dinaric) - [R. Livi - plates]
http://i31.tinypic.com/ayvaea.jpg

Romagna - Dinaric - [R. Biasutti - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img547/1687/dinaric1.png

Romagna - Dinaric - [R. Biasutti - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/3808/dinaric2.png

Marche - Dinaric - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img705/4561/dinaricmarche.png

Nobody1
30-04-13, 04:11
But Keep in mind that all Mediterranean people are akin to each other whether in Europe, North Africa or Near East (Orientalid sub-race)

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians"-

William Z. Ripley - plates / Berbers of the Mediterranid (Orientalid) Caucasoid sub-race
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/7225/tunisians.png

Cambrius (The Red)
30-04-13, 04:28
Madison Grant? Ripley? Autosomal DNA (a very major determinant of phenotype) has proven these charlatans wrong in a huge way. Iberians and Italians cluster far away from Berbers in every genetic plot ever produced.

Nobody1
30-04-13, 06:26
Madison Grant? Ripley? Autosomal DNA (a very major determinant of phenotype) has proven these charlatans wrong in a huge way. Iberians and Italians cluster far away from Berbers in every genetic plot ever produced.

As i said in our last conversation; I agree with you on atDNA. But i dont agree with your dismissal of all other indicators of identity, like: Anthropology, Archaeology, Linguistics, History and Haplogroups (Y & mt).
All of them are important in determining population movements/shifts and modern-day regional (some extent even national) identity.

As for atDNA; Genes mirror geography - J. Novembre et al. (2008) [UCLA]

http://imageshack.us/a/img27/7280/clustermap.png

other examples from Lao et al 2008, Price et al 2008 etc.
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/

Seems like geographic regions cluster closest to each other and not trans-regional.
So even if the Berbers dont "cluster" with South Europeans, they are still Anthropologically of the Mediterranean/Orientalid [Caucasoid] sub-race.

And keep in mind Anthropology is a scientific standard and a branch of Biology, which is based on the likes of Darwin and Humboldt.
And those who you call charlatans were all influential and respected Scientists (Professors) at renown institutions like Harvard etc.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 22:35
Sorry i can't resist.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2cexd5.png

Hauteville
02-12-14, 22:52
Caucasoid sub-races in Italy:

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png



Calabria - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/7128/calabria1.png

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5714/sicily1.PNG

The first man is a messinese by Coon book.
Plate 24. BLUE-EYED ATLANTO-MEDITERRANEANS
"FIG.1 (3 views). A Sicilian from Messina. Aberrant in respect to an excessive mandible width, but otherwise typical."
From which book are the calabrian and the other sicilian? i have never seen their photos before today.

Angela
03-12-14, 03:17
The first man is a messinese by Coon book.
Plate 24. BLUE-EYED ATLANTO-MEDITERRANEANS
"FIG.1 (3 views). A Sicilian from Messina. Aberrant in respect to an excessive mandible width, but otherwise typical."
From which book are the calabrian and the other sicilian? i have never seen their photos before today.

It's commercial time, so I did a reverse image search. :)

They seem to be from a book by Roland Dixon called The Racial History of Man. He was another one of those early twentieth century racists.

This also came up:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/1241515/1/

I'll say one thing, I've been watching the Netflix series Lilyhammer, and the Norwegian plates look pretty representative.

The Portuguese plate seems off. That has to be a Cape Verdean or something. They're the only Portuguese or part Portuguese people I've ever seen that look that SSA admixed...that, or Brazilians.
http://s653.photobucket.com/user/Tyranos/media/med2.jpg.html

The south Italian sample isn't off, imo, but you need more than one plate to capture the diversity. The two you posted help, but you'd still need more examples, I think.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 09:43
All these three plates have familiar phenotypes however ;)

Angela
03-12-14, 15:27
All these three plates have familiar phenotypes however ;)

You think the Calabrian and the Sicilian right below him have the exact same phenotype? Doesn't it seem to you that the Calabrian has larger, more widely set eyes, a slightly different nose, and slightly different pigmentation?

Ah, I probably misunderstood you; I was thinking similar when you said familiar. They are definitely familiar faces, all four of them!

The Calabrian face is particularly familiar to me.

Angela
03-12-14, 15:34
Sorry i can't resist.
http://i61.tinypic.com/2cexd5.png

Did you post this because you think that the different sources of the Greek input resulted in slightly different phenotypes? For that to be true, wouldn't we have to believe that there were differences in the Greeks from Ionia compared to the Greeks from, say, the Northwest, or even Achaea?

Ed. Or, was it to show that Greek colonization did not blanket the whole south? I agree about that, although gene flow probably occurred during the Bronze Age as well, and how different could the Neolithic input to both areas have been?

Hauteville
03-12-14, 20:14
Or, was it to show that Greek colonization did not blanket the whole south?

I would say this and the map of Magna Grecia is quite accurate compared to some other of the web.


Ah, I probably misunderstood you; I was thinking similar when you said familiar. They are definitely familiar faces, all four of them!

Again this eheh

noUseForAname
03-12-14, 22:28
Dont know about South Italians, but Sicilians still have a genetic impact/link with Greeks based on the ancient colonies of Magna Graecia.

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18685561/

The lineage E3b1a2-V13 13-13-30-24-10-11-13, which is typical of the Greek and southern Balkan regions, is present in the eastern side of the island and, together with the more general presence of the E3b1a2-V13 lineages, supports the presence of a common genetic heritage shared by the Sicilians and the Greeks.
The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37%
The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era.

So the Genetic link (~37%) between Sicilians and Greeks is due to the Historical link
(Syracuse / Naxos (Taormina) / Valley of the Temples etc.) of Magna Graecia.

R.J. King [Stanford Uni.] was also part of the Di Gaetano et al 2009 study;
R.J. King did an equally revealing study about the ancient Greek genetic impact of the Provence, South France.

King et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

However, this increase in Y-chromosome admixture from Greece is in accord with the recent results from Sicily, which estimated a 37% Greece input, in accordance with the demographic estimate of [18 (Beloch), 19 (Scheidel)].

So are you pointing that Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% of E-V13?

As per Italy...I have found very high E-V13 in some areas above 28% (see table)


Italians (South)
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
26.0

15.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily))
IE (Italic)



8.8
27.3
23.8




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Italians (East Sicily)
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
29.0

5.0

5.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations)

you are pointing out admixture from Greece, i believe its from Ancient Greece and it was comprised of the following current Countries (by location) according to DNA links, Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo.



plogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5


Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5


Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1


Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4


Greece (Crete)

13

8.8
17

39

8.8


Greece (Thrace)

19

22
12

19

19


Greece (ethnic Greeks)

19

16
11.7
9
17

19


Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1


Bulgaria
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5


Bosniaks
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10


Bosnian Croats
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9


Bosnian Serbs
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5


Croatia
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10


Serbia
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:27
37% is the complessive estimated greek influence in Sicily according to Di Gaetano et al. (2008) not only E-V13.

noUseForAname
03-12-14, 23:31
But Keep in mind that all Mediterranean people are akin to each other whether in Europe, North Africa or Near East (Orientalid sub-race)

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians"-

William Z. Ripley - plates / Berbers of the Mediterranid (Orientalid) Caucasoid sub-race
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/7225/tunisians.png

According to recent scientific DNA facts the map you have showed is not even close....taking Spain in the same subclade with berbers, then south France south Itali, and also south Greece. Of course they would have some of the same DNA but actually at the lowest percentages...

Also, South Greece on the map showed has nothing to to with berbers...cause south Greece has over 40% of E-V13.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

As you can see in Africa E-V13 (which is 9,000 years) is 0.9%, and at that time surely there were no berbers.

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:34
Berbers are mostly E-M81 and it's the dominant Y-Dna of north Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

noUseForAname
04-12-14, 17:19
Berbers are mostly E-M81 and it's the dominant Y-Dna of north Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

That is correct. And the E-V13 that we find in Europe is a subclade of E-M78 and at berbers is only 5%.

Hauteville
04-12-14, 18:33
The same E-M81 in Magna Grecia has very low frequencies.