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mihaitzateo
20-03-12, 23:13
diversity is not the same as frequency...

actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

Croatian origin of big part of this people is disputed as Narentanes/Pagani were by Byzantine historians captured as unbaptized Serbs.... in last centuries people were classified as Serbs/Croats based on religion... catholic = Croat, orthodox = Serb

42% of I2a-Din in Croatia is big lie made by talking half of samples from 3 southern islands that were part of Narentania and where I2aDin is between 60 and 80%...
in reality, Croatia has I2a-Din on same level as Serbia - around 30%






well, that is hard to state as we do not know much about Dacians...
but yes, Croats did have state in Carpathians in part that is now Ukraine and south Poland and perhaps even Slovakia...
they may have been same people as Carpi and/or Heruli but there is no real proof for that yet...




as i said Croats do not have 42% of I2a-Din
its about how to lie with numbers...
i can take half samples from Sweden and half from Sardinia and say there is 25% I2a1 in Sweden, but there is 0%


regarding Neamt and Buhusi, if those counties are very different than rest of Romania, than they are not Dacians in origin..
neamt county is named after a word that means german in Slavic languages which is likely indication of germanic settlement...

Another genetic testing was made,but this time more general,in romanians from south.
Near Constanta,which is in south-east of Romania M170 (no ideea which clades,but I supose most is I2A-din) is almost 40%.
And is a higher percentage of E1,supose is E-V13,cause test was not that deep.
(14% romanians near ploiesti,9.7% romanians near constanta).

Near Ploiesti,M170 is almost 39% - again no ideea which clades,since no deep genetic testing was done.
But I supose is somehting like 30-31% I2a-din,I1A+I1C about 5-6% and 1% other M170 clades.
Here is that generic testing for Y DNA near Constanta and Ploiesti:
http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf
Whatever,results are weird enough.

how yes no 3
20-03-12, 23:29
Another genetic testing was made,but this time more general,in romanians from south.
Near Constanta,which is in south-east of Romania M170 (no ideea which clades,but I supose most is I2A-din) is almost 40%.
And is a higher percentage of E1,supose is E-V13,cause test was not that deep.
(14% romanians near ploiesti,9.7% romanians near constanta).

Near Ploiesti,M170 is almost 39% - again no ideea which clades,since no deep genetic testing was done.
But I supose is somehting like 30-31% I2a-din,I1A+I1C about 5-6% and 1% other M170 clades.
Here is that generic testing for Y DNA near Constanta and Ploiesti:
http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf
Whatever,results are weird enough.

i will not ask how can you suppose numbers..... numbers can be predicted in an educated guess when one compares something with related cases or prehistory, but you are making a wild guess without any reasoning...

those are not new results....
they are from year 2006
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

don't know why is it surprising for you?

as I said I2a-din spread along Danube....
both Ploesti and Constanca fit in that route....


but this is also not really Dacian area...
that is area of Roxolani (Sarmatians, one of Alan tribes, ruxs alans = "white" alans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Roman_Empire_125.png


btw. just wondering where would at 125 Ad on the map above be proto- west Slavs...that I say origin from Pelasgians via Pannonians... according to Russian primary chronicle they were pushed to settle Vistula river where they are called Lyaks.... a wild guess - Lugii seems to be closest match to this by location and name on the map above...perhaps they are by others also called Vandilli as they are of same R1a race As Venedi - probably proto-Balts... and from there comes usage of name Wend by Germans for Slavs and Jordanes saying that Slavs are race of Venethi...
Lugii, Lugi, Lygii, Ligii, Lugiones, Lygians, Ligians, Lugians, or Lougoi is it same tribal name as Lycians/Lukka/Lech/Lyakhs?

looking at the map they would nicely explain Poles in Poland... when Gothones go to Black sea they can spread northeast, when Burgundians go towards France they can spread west....
so it makes sense... but needs to be confronted with historical sources (not the same as schoolbook or historian interpretations of them)...also if we look movement of people alike to fluids moving from areas with higher pressure to ones with lower, it makes some sense that movement of Goths towards Black sea was caused by movement of Luigii deeper in their area which was caused by Roman empire spreading.........

another thing that attracts my attention is link between Sarmatians and I2a-din...this coupled with Scirri said by some to be Alanic people, by Carpatians being called both montes serrorum and montes Sarmatici makes me thing that Sarmatians might have been one of Serian branches afterall...
this fits well with historic mention of tribe Serboi in Sarmatia.... but Seneca says Serians dare to live unarmed among Sarmatians...so Serians cannot be = Sarmatians

on other hand we can map Ploesti and Constanca just to Roxolani = white Alans, not to Sarmatians and Alans in general.... especially because there are no traces of I2a-din in Iberia or north Africa....

this "white" makes me curious... white alans, white Syrian, white Sart. white Serbs (De administrando imperio says Serbs come to Balkan from land they call Boiki where they have been called white, and Croats come from land white Croatia where they were called white) ...this white is repeating pattern for I2a-din ...why?
white = west in iranic color system of marking sides of the world...
e.g. Sart people in Serica north of Tibet and white-Sart west of them in Uzbekistan and Kyrgizstan...
white Serbs in Bohemia makes sense, as we can assume existence of more east Serbs....

but Strabo speaking of white syrians in Cappodokia (likely ancestors of Kurds?) says they are actually whiter than other syrians and he equates Syrians with Sumerians.... maybe that was different...

actually, big part of I2a-Din in Ploesti and Constanca may have arrived later than Alans
it is where Slavic Severians setlled.. Severians are by some argued to be same as Serbs...
those would be east Serbs
while white or west Serbs went from Bohemia to Serbia...



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png

it may also be due to Bulgars... as I said I believe they were originally I2a-Din like Serbs, Croats and Macedonians.... in Caucasus they had state roughly in area where previously Serboi tribe was... i think they were somewhat turkicized but spoke more or less same language as Serbs when they arrived to Balkan...in medieval south Slavic historic script "letopis popa Dukljanina" confusing data is given about south Slavs being Goths and about Bulgarians being large settlement of people speaking same language...which is contrary to understanding of modern scholar history according to which non-Slavic Bulgars took over language from subjugated Slavic people...

whole region from where Bulgars come was turkicized... e.g. looking at map from 650 AD there are turkic Sabirs in place where earlier Serboi were, which were I guess those Serians of Seneca who dared to leave their homes unguarded among Sarmatians... i think today Chuvash people partially origin from those Sabirs...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Pontic_steppe_region_around_650_AD.png

pipinnacanus
20-03-12, 23:59
Everyone who has looked at current I1 samples will tell you that it's remarkably young in terms of TMRCA Irrelevant, but when you rely on "everyone" as your citation its a good indicator of your intent to make the case that you want and you dont need any science or reproducable fact for that, you would be as well off in a fantasy role playing environment.
The center of diversity of I1 is around Schleswig-Holstein per Nordtvedt, by the way. There are no ancient clades with apparent origins far from that discovered so far.Nordvedt has no scientific credibility. He long ago start with being 'answer-man' and got to enjoy it too much, and cannot stop.Nordvedt is selling his own stories, and gaining happy adherents with promises that cannot be reproduced except with magic figures that he has deduced which later fail. these also resulted in people with similar STR being placed in 'clades' he 'discover' who later are not even within same SNP when later identified. He is a hobbyist who lurks on message boards, not a scientist cautiously revealing only fact. He deals in whimsy that is regularly overturned.When Ken started, few ancient Y-samples existed and identifying his claims as unsupported was only based on his failure to use caution in his claims but could not be a full refutation since we had no data from ancient remains.TODAY, we have every modern Hg turned up in one or more ancient samples, EXCEPT alone - Hg I1. Now the burden is on Ken to explain this and why. It is not turning up in even one random sample while EVERYTHING else is, because I1 was not part of the continental Hg of these early germanic tribal populations or anyone else on the continent at that time.
Who do you propose the Svears were, if not Germanic? And you're saying they brought I1 to Scandinavia from where...? And again, you're reading too much into the lack of ancient DNA.I will not critique Ken and then do the same I point out in he actions. I must preface by saying I cannot promise any certainty only logic.I think that I1 is a early Ugric/Balto-Slavic population left behind in central scandinavia as the Ugric population recedes to the east. The I1 is about as germanic originally as are the Ugric Saami who they neighbor.They are absent on the continent, your champion Ken has had more than a decade to show one in-situ sample from the tribal continent. Every other hg is there. only I1 is absent as many warned when ken ran off on the message boards with his ''facts'' that he has magically concluded and can offer such iron assurances.One decade, every other Hg found.
Then why is North German I1 of the same subclade as English I1 for the most part? And Scandinavian-type I1 is much rarer there?Well, the same Svearish Ugric/balto-slavics who burst out of scandinavia to colonize and loot the continent, also go to the British Isles, and create well documented settlements there. Are you asking this for real?
Nobody's worried, because we haven't had any samples other than Birger Jarl where I1 was seriously expected. OK, seriously. Listen up. We only have diversity analysis now. We haven't expected more ancient I1 than we have. And diversity analysis still indicates strong ties between Haplogroup I1 and Germanic peoples.You should be. If you were looking to do more than defend claims that are based only on modern population demographic.If you are honestly trying to reach fact, and ascertain truth, you would be worried. If you are not worried, its because you are only interested in something that can bend to support your pet theory and desire, and will happily discount that which interferes with your pet theory or historical wish.We are not talking about a minor thing. We are talking about every single Hg that is present in modern european populations, have all been found at least once in a ancient sample dating to or before tribal times with only one exception.That one exception is I1- I1 is most likely a vestgial Ugric/Balto-Slavic population that was based out of central Scandinavia and like its I2 cousins on the continent, it "adopted into" the culture that conquered its lands. Where ever I1 is found, its fellow traveller R1a-M17 along with asian Q and Ugric-Baltic 'N' are present.To refute this, or disprove me, all you need to do is show ONE lone single I1 sample from any ancient sample on the Euro continent, and you cannot and will not be able to do this, because it was not THERE at that time.If I were someone trying to keep hopes alive for what I knew was a collapsed theory that rewrites almost everything that ken has been promoting, I would do the same thing you are and demand to 'WAIT' endlessly to forever stall the admission that I1 is a vestigial Ugric/Balto-Slavic population that sat silently in central scandinavia until around the Dark Ages when the confluence of factors favored its expansion south into europe.

sparkey
21-03-12, 01:13
Irrelevant, but when you rely on "everyone" as your citation its a good indicator of your intent to make the case that you want and you dont need any science or reproducable fact for that, you would be as well off in a fantasy role playing environment.

There is less STR variation in I1 than in most other haplogroup clades, such as I2. That's a fact. TMRCA calculations are performed based on STR variation, informed by subclade modals. Hence, everyone (Nordtvedt, Robb, Klyosov...) who has looked at current samples of it concludes that it's young in terms of TMRCA.


Nordvedt has no scientific credibility. He long ago start with being 'answer-man' and got to enjoy it too much, and cannot stop.Nordvedt is selling his own stories, and gaining happy adherents with promises that cannot be reproduced except with magic figures that he has deduced which later fail. these also resulted in people with similar STR being placed in 'clades' he 'discover' who later are not even within same SNP when later identified. He is a hobbyist who lurks on message boards, not a scientist cautiously revealing only fact. He deals in whimsy that is regularly overturned.

That's an interesting assault on Nordtvedt's character. But attacking him doesn't really invalidate any points that I make. Not to mention that his STR clusters have generally been accurate, and when they haven't been (such as being unable to separate all the "I1-AS" members), it's been due to convergence in young clades like I1, which is unavoidable. That doesn't change the quality of his TMRCA calculations or diversity analysis.


When Ken started, few ancient Y-samples existed and identifying his claims as unsupported was only based on his failure to use caution in his claims but could not be a full refutation since we had no data from ancient remains.TODAY, we have every modern Hg turned up in one or more ancient samples, EXCEPT alone - Hg I1. Now the burden is on Ken to explain this and why. It is not turning up in even one random sample while EVERYTHING else is, because I1 was not part of the continental Hg of these early germanic tribal populations or anyone else on the continent at that time.

You're wrong. Some clades with no ancient European samples: J2, I2a1*, I2a1b, I2a2a, I2b, I2c, T, Q, L, J1 (unless that "F*" was really J1)...

There simply haven't been that many ancient DNA tests yet. Which one do you think should have resulted in I1 if Nordtvedt is right? The Urnfield samples? I wouldn't expect it there. The Corded Ware samples? I wouldn't expect it there. The Treilles samples? I wouldn't expect it there. Avellaner? Ötzi? What? Until you answer that, I'm done arguing with you about the implications of ancient samples.


Well, the same Svearish Ugric/balto-slavics who burst out of scandinavia to colonize and loot the continent, also go to the British Isles, and create well documented settlements there. Are you asking this for real?

I'm asking it as a challenge, and you're not answering it satisfactorally. The point is that I1-Z58 is common between North Germans and the English, but much less common in Scandinavia. Meanwhile, I1-L22 is very common in Scandinavia and in some other places we might expect it, like Mann, but it's relatively uncommon in North Germans and the English as a whole. That pattern is consistent with an I1-Z58-heavy population shared between the North Germans and the English, but not the Scandinavians.


You should be. If you were looking to do more than defend claims that are based only on modern population demographic.If you are honestly trying to reach fact, and ascertain truth, you would be worried. If you are not worried, its because you are only interested in something that can bend to support your pet theory and desire, and will happily discount that which interferes with your pet theory or historical wish.

:rolleyes2: What do you suppose my desire is? I'm not even I1.

Yetos
21-03-12, 01:21
The hobbyist analysis that Gosh cross-posted earlier claimed Prague Culture as the likely source, which seems feasible to me. You present an interesting challenge, though: If the proposal is that South Slavic peoples are more closely related to West than to East Slavic peoples, why do South Slavic languages share more in common with East Slavic? The answer is apparently: since the separation of the South Slavic peoples dates back to the early days of what might be called a "Slavic" culture, probably before the differentiation of the Slavic language, that means that West and South Slavic languages didn't develop their unique characteristics until after they separated. Since they were initially smaller populations than East Slavic, their languages probably evolved more quickly as a result.

Obviously, the above is a lot of speculation on my part, trying to make sense of the pieces of this puzzle that I understand the least, so as always, I'm open to any corrections or counter-analysis.

I think the answer is in who accepted Cyrillic and the translation of Bible and who stood in The Latina,
consider Slavic population were divided after the 'cut' (Schisma) of the church,
Poles Ucraines follow the West Church, while Serbs Bulgars (Severi) followed the East church,

Also an interesting case is that Serbs came from Central Europe and NoRTH OF Bohemia,
Severi came from Ucraine through Romania but from Mountain road, and Bulgars (non Slavic) from the Sea
and I don't remember Croats primary area, I think it was east of hungary

razor
21-03-12, 01:34
As in, when did the first individual to have the defining SNP of I2a-Din live? That would be between when I2a-Din and I2a-Disles diverged, and the TMRCA of I2a-Din. So, it's a range, not a specific date estimate, that we're looking at for that.

Is this what is called the "interclade node"?

sparkey
21-03-12, 01:42
Is this what is called the "interclade node"?

The interclade node of multiple haplogroups is when they began to diverge from one another. That's earlier than when they developed their defining SNPs.

razor
21-03-12, 02:58
The interclade node of multiple haplogroups is when they began to diverge from one another. That's earlier than when they developed their defining SNPs.
So at the the moment, the only thing we can say about the origin of I2-Din is that it began sometime after ca. 4000 BCE and sometime before ca. 300 BCE, in connection with the L147.2 definer (as of now) /and we don't know when that was/. We also can't say for sure where it had its inception (indeed we can't even say that with respect to the group's MRCA)...

mihaitzateo
21-03-12, 06:23
I just remember of how you were saying in old romanian language at a script that describe history - letopisetz.

In south slavic is called ljetopis.

Is just nonsense,highest percentage of I2A din is in hutsuls,they are living in Romanian and Ukraine Carpathians,they have same popular costumes as romanians and serbs (and think croats) and so on.
Is the propaganda that want to say romanians,serbs,croats and montenegrins are not here from thousands of years,but they came from somewhere.
Almost all geniticians accept that I is from proto-europeans,however,some people from here are negating obvious truth,and want to tell that I2A din was not from here,as Nortvedt also clearly states,but that some migratory people came here.
Look how most people voted here,Paleolithic continuity,stop with the nonsense,the people from here were called either thracians,either dacians,either south slavs.
You can not explain the resemblance of popular costumes from serbs,romanians with popular costumes in which dacians are painted on Trajan column,if you do not accept that dacians are same with south slavs and from here is I2A-din.

Go google and look at the popular costumes of hutsuls,at the popular costumes of romanians,at the popular costumes of serbians and of croats.

zanipolo
21-03-12, 07:20
well, only source that talks about arrival of Serbs to Balkan is De administrando imperio, and it states that they have arrived from Boiki (Bavaria/Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt.. this fits well with I2a -Din south spread among south slavs and to some extent in Germany, but not in east Europe...Bohemia/Bavaria also has place names Srby several times and in part of Bavaria neighbouring Bohemia is town that was known as Serviodurum... Bohemia and Serbia are also 2 of 3 centers of diversity for I2a-Din.. hence Prague culture reconstruction pointed out earlier in this thread makes lot of sense...

btw. it is more or less very clear that I2a-Din has spread went along Danube and further along Black sea and into Asia.....this is in fact perfect match with 3 centers of I2a Din diversity: Bohemia (starting point for voyage down the Danube), Serbia (mid point) and Ukraine (end point) ...

authors that you speak about do not speak about settlement of Serbs, they just call them Triballians...
in same way some authors were using name Scythians for Huns and made similar generalizations by using a barbarian tribe from more distant history to name the one from their reality... its not something that can be 100% trusted... it was often derogatory...like when we say some person is Vandal...

thing is I2a-Din is very typical trace for south Slavs....and I2a is clearly related to tribal names such as Sardinians, Serbs, and in Asia people like Kurds, Sarbans and white Sart... therefore I assume it was in distant past kind of name for a race not for tribes... Serians/Serres

even in Greece there is Serres area and is reach in I2a-Din and is also where ancient Greek history document speaks of Serres/Serians living...

relation between the name and haplogroup is for me more clear as reconstruction of its spread around Danube gives us another related tribal name Scordisci/Serdi...

and reconstruction of sea peoples conquest with Sherdana having same tribal name (and living behind only single place name - of a lake in Egypt called Serbonian bog) again correlates with spread of I2a...sea people conquest, by analysis of order of conquest, clearly must have had actual stronghold in Kurdish area of today....but isn't Kurd in fact same tribal name as Sherdana? and what about Kurds being different from environment due to R1a and I2a genetics?

Pomponius Mela speaks of Asia settled starting from east by Indians, Serres and Scythians... today people who partially originate from those Serres are white Sarts, pashtun Sarbans and Kurds..

Seneca speaks of Serians along Danube, rulling over Scythians, in Serica (north of Tibet) and red sea...
this is again mapped easily to I2a-din...rulling over Scythians = east Europe and north of Black sea... its clear I2a-Din has spread along the Danube, regarding Serica today hotspot of haplogroup I is in that area and in people who were known as Sart and white Sart..only question is red sea... but not all people live genetic impact... we know that red sea was where Sherdana had clashes with Egypt...



essentially, what I claim is that Serb/Serd/Serian was a name of a race of I2a people, like Arabs are race related to J1 and Chinese related people with O... in fact, knowing that Swedes are associated with spread of I1 and Suebi (Swabians) with I2b and I1 we can speak of it being ancient race name for haplogroup I or its part...

Serbs of today are just one small leaf of that tree... and their direct ancestors were not the Sherdana of sea people who gave Kurds, but according to only historic source writing about them some people who have in 7th century come down Danube from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt (not necessarily continuously)...
it is question whether those were Scordisci who lived along Danube originally from Slovakia to Greece and Bulgaria or Scirri who were recorded in Baltic areas where we can find I2a-Din south and also recorded in Bavaria, and also placed by some authors into Alans, same as Caucasian Serboi were put among Sarmatians /Alans . Or were perhaps Scordisci and Scirri/Scirrians in fact same people or two related branches in tree of I2a-Din?

Triballians also lived along this Danube route, so they probably also had significant I2a-Din...so they were probably also of Serb/Serd/Sard/Serian race, but probably not ancestors of the Serbs who came to Balkans in 7th century...





it is easy to see that I2a-Din was for long time spread along Danube... I2a-Din was probably not originally present in Greece (except for Seres and Macedonia area and Cypress to which it came from sea peoples) and Albania...but was present and in fact very likely dominant along Danube.... for long long time....

I believe that Balkan was originally settled by R1a...those would be Pelasgians or flatland/field/sea people...same tribal name is Poles (Poljaci with Slavic Polje = field)... again poles/pelast/pelasgians is originally about race name not nation or tribe name.. this is a race name for R1a1a7-M458 branch that is dominant in west Slavs... this branch has highest diversity in Serbia where a common ancestor is estimated to have lived 14KYA

another race name for R1a is Rasena/Russians/Thracians/Rašani......in Europe this is related to R1a1a*(xM458) dominant in east Slavs... for samples in Serbia this branch has most distant common ancestor 11 KYA

this all indicates long history of the spread of R1a in Balkan and east Europe prior to arrival of E-V13 and J2 people....

reference about estimated age of R1a in Serbia:
High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


when E-V13 and J2 proto-Greek tribes and later Illyrians came to Balkan they have partly assimilated partly pushed out Pelasgians to Pannonia where they are known as Pannonians...with spread of Roman empire they went to Poland.... similarly center of R1a Thracians pushed by Roman empire moves towards Russia




i think Bulgars could have been originally same as Serbs and Croats and Macedonians - I2a din people... but part of those who lived in Caucasus....and perhaps became mixed with some turkic people... e.g. Huns...

De administrando imperio does not talk about the arrival of the serbs but of the severians. According to russian and slavic historians, the Poles came from east of modern Kiev and the Severians from east of the Poles.

I do not know why you disregard your thracian roots, be it triballi or seres , both are thracian tribes. There is nothing wrong with being part of extinct name be it thracian, trojan, Illyrian, gothic, gallic, raeti and dozens or others. You fail to understand that serbs are not originally slavic and there history is in the balkans, same as bosnians, thay say they came from the gothic Bosni tribe , which does not exist, but they came from another thracian tribe called bessi ( besi) .
Being overun and ruled by the gaulish scordisci does not make you gaulish/celtic, because the romans overun your area as well, I do not see you saying you are roman.

The I2a-Din was central european, be it illyrian like I said or Celtic from Boii or others. Its odd the illyrians and celtics never clashed but lived side by side and merged in different areas, be it noricum, pannonia and others

In the comments of vandals/vandelli/vendelli, well they where not a tribe but a confederation of different tribes, I already produced map, these tribes where the goths, gepids, lugii, rugii, burgundians, longobards, and others

zanipolo
21-03-12, 07:24
The hobbyist analysis that Gosh cross-posted earlier claimed Prague Culture as the likely source, which seems feasible to me. You present an interesting challenge, though: If the proposal is that South Slavic peoples are more closely related to West than to East Slavic peoples, why do South Slavic languages share more in common with East Slavic? The answer is apparently: since the separation of the South Slavic peoples dates back to the early days of what might be called a "Slavic" culture, probably before the differentiation of the Slavic language, that means that West and South Slavic languages didn't develop their unique characteristics until after they separated. Since they were initially smaller populations than East Slavic, their languages probably evolved more quickly as a result.

Obviously, the above is a lot of speculation on my part, trying to make sense of the pieces of this puzzle that I understand the least, so as always, I'm open to any corrections or counter-analysis.

Is this I2a-Din have any relation with I2a L69?

prague culture depending what years you speak of would be celtic boii as per what taranis says about the boii.

Yetos
21-03-12, 11:21
I just remember of how you were saying in old romanian language at a script that describe history - letopisetz.

In south slavic is called ljetopis.

Is just nonsense,highest percentage of I2A din is in hutsuls,they are living in Romanian and Ukraine Carpathians,they have same popular costumes as romanians and serbs (and think croats) and so on.
Is the propaganda that want to say romanians,serbs,croats and montenegrins are not here from thousands of years,but they came from somewhere.
Almost all geniticians accept that I is from proto-europeans,however,some people from here are negating obvious truth,and want to tell that I2A din was not from here,as Nortvedt also clearly states,but that some migratory people came here.
Look how most people voted here,Paleolithic continuity,stop with the nonsense,the people from here were called either thracians,either dacians,either south slavs.
You can not explain the resemblance of popular costumes from serbs,romanians with popular costumes in which dacians are painted on Trajan column,if you do not accept that dacians are same with south slavs and from here is I2A-din.

Go google and look at the popular costumes of hutsuls,at the popular costumes of romanians,at the popular costumes of serbians and of croats.

nop you point in a wrong way of understanding,

this has nothing to do with propaganda of a state etc,
but with understanding better migration and Human History,
and stop the charlatans of every country that are paid to make propaganda,
the difference among South Slavs and Thracians is big enough, even in Linguistic and in culture,
simply south Slavic accepted Thracian culture by time, that as also the heritage culture they carry create and their new alliances and religion create modern states in Balkans,

a good example is Cumans, they entered Balkans, they create villages and cities, in Serbia FyroM Romania Albania, but no body talks about them,
if you look modern Cumans they sing and dance just like Serbs Albanians Romanians Greeks, but were they Thracians or Greeks etc?



De administrando imperio does not talk about the arrival of the serbs but of the severians. According to russian and slavic historians, the Poles came from east of modern Kiev and the Severians from east of the Poles.

I do not know why you disregard your thracian roots, be it triballi or seres , both are thracian tribes. There is nothing wrong with being part of extinct name be it thracian, trojan, Illyrian, gothic, gallic, raeti and dozens or others. You fail to understand that serbs are not originally slavic and there history is in the balkans, same as bosnians, thay say they came from the gothic Bosni tribe , which does not exist, but they came from another thracian tribe called bessi ( besi) .
Being overun and ruled by the gaulish scordisci does not make you gaulish/celtic, because the romans overun your area as well, I do not see you saying you are roman.

The I2a-Din was central european, be it illyrian like I said or Celtic from Boii or others. Its odd the illyrians and celtics never clashed but lived side by side and merged in different areas, be it noricum, pannonia and others

In the comments of vandals/vandelli/vendelli, well they where not a tribe but a confederation of different tribes, I already produced map, these tribes where the goths, gepids, lugii, rugii, burgundians, longobards, and others

nope, the road of Severi is beside the road of Bulgars, they came both from Ucraine Moldavia
Severi came first to Romania (Karpatheia) and from there enter Central Bulgaria, Bulgars enter from minor Scythia, to East Bulgaria,
that is why although Bulgars were Huns relative speaking, Bulgaria is a Slavic speaking,
these 2 and the older Thracians and the Serdi create the modern Bulgaria

Serbs and Croats,
Serbs and Croats is another cooperation, that is why the language in 1800 was Serbo-Croatian, and not Severian or Bulgarian.
Serbs and Croat are mentioned to act together from the times of 'white Serbia' and white Croatia and white Russia (Bella Serbia Bella croatia Bella Russia, in Germanic Weiss (west) Serbia weiss croatia Weiss Russ) from there moved west
to Bohemia the Serbs to East Hungary the Croats,
and from there enter Balkans but from the same passage. today's Beograd,
First the Serbs who moved to Nis, to Skopje and then back to Dunav,
then Croats who passed Beograd move to Croatia inland and then to Dalmatia,
so modern Serbs are the Serbs the Thracians and the remnants of Celts east of dinaric Alps
Modern Croats are the Croats the Dalmatians and the population that exist before,
the big difference among inland Croats (not Dalmatians) and Serbs and Bosnians is religion,

The Severi became synonym of what Byzantines call Bulgarians, Severi split and gave the Gorani, Pomaks (the tamrash) etc
Serbs are a clear river culture, the aquatic system of Central Balkans, the one Triballi wanted to control.
Severi are an open country and mountain culture mostly roaming with their animals

how yes no 3
21-03-12, 14:58
I just remember of how you were saying in old romanian language at a script that describe history - letopisetz.

In south slavic is called ljetopis.
letopis in Serbia, ljetopis is more what people in Montenegro or Croatia or Bosnia would say...

its a coin word
leto = summer/year (year is more arhaic meaning)
pisati = to write
it literrary means "writing (down) years" = chronicle

it is Slavic word.... perhaps it was used in medival romanian

but that is just confirmation of what is known - that medieval Romanian was much closer to Slavic than modern one, and that was result of big Slavic admixture.....







Is just nonsense,highest percentage of I2A din is in hutsuls,they are living in Romanian and Ukraine Carpathians,they have same popular costumes as romanians and serbs (and think croats) and so on.
Is the propaganda that want to say romanians,serbs,croats and montenegrins are not here from thousands of years,but they came from somewhere.

area of Carpathians on border of Ukraine and Romania was core of white Croatia.... it is possible that Dacian Carpi Germanic Heruli and Slavic Hrvati (Croats) are same people....but it is just my speculation...



Almost all geniticians accept that I is from proto-europeans,however,some people from here are negating obvious truth,and want to tell that I2A din was not from here,as Nortvedt also clearly states,but that some migratory people came here.
I2a is present in Danube basin and Morava valley system for long time.... but in my opinion not continuously on all parts of it.... spread of roman empire pushed parts of it up the Danube and down the Danube...


Look how most people voted here,
Paleolithic continuity,stop with the nonsense,the people from here were called either thracians,either dacians,either south slavs.
You can not explain the resemblance of popular costumes from serbs,romanians with popular costumes in which dacians are painted on Trajan column,if you do not accept that dacians are same with south slavs and from here is I2A-din.
i have no indications that Dacians are same as south Slavs...in fact there is no I2a-Din South in Romania....hence those were perhaps related perhaps also dominant I2a-Din people but not the same people...
the tribal name Dacians I tend to link more to R1b...but am not sure yet...



De administrando imperio does not talk about the arrival of the serbs but of the severians. According to russian and slavic historians, the Poles came from east of modern Kiev and the Severians from east of the Poles.
sure it does.... there is a chapter on serbs and a chapter on Croats, and chapter of some other south Slavic tribes like Narentanes (area of south Croatia and Croatian Herzegovina) that are classified as Serbs....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PP11#v=onepage&q&f=false

(http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false)http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


I do not know why you disregard your thracian roots, be it triballi or seres , both are thracian tribes. There is nothing wrong with being part of extinct name be it thracian, trojan, Illyrian, gothic, gallic, raeti and dozens or others. You fail to understand that serbs are not originally slavic and there history is in the balkans, same as bosnians, thay say they came from the gothic Bosni tribe , which does not exist, but they came from another thracian tribe called bessi ( besi) .
I do not negate that some tribes of I2a-din race that spread serb alike tribal names were considered Thracian possible tribes of that race among Thracians are e.g. Triballi and Serdi... I say that only historic source says that modern Serbs origin from people who come from Bohemia and that this is matching other evidence - like divergency of I2a-din, place names, river names, presence of I2a-din south in germany but not in east europe.... my theory is just that those people in fact didnot come but came back to place from which roman empire has pushed them out....




Being overun and ruled by the gaulish scordisci does not make you gaulish/celtic, because the romans overun your area as well, I do not see you saying you are roman.
scordisci/serdi is derived from same tribal name as Serbi... hence tribal name may origin from those people...
they did spread along Danube that matches spread of i2a-din and matches precisely the location
where russian primary chronicle places Danubian slavs prior to expansion of Roman empire...


The I2a-Din was central european, be it illyrian like I said or Celtic from Boii or others. Its odd the illyrians and celtics never clashed but lived side by side and merged in different areas, be it noricum, pannonia and others
I2a-din spread along Danube and is correlating everywhere in Europe and Asia with names alike to Serbs... Scordisci are one of the tribal names that fit in this I2a-Din Serian/Serres/ Scirii(Sciriians)/ white-Syrian/Scordisci/Kurds/Sherdana(with place named after them being Serbonian bog)/ white Sart, Sart, Serres, Serboi.... correlation is very clear...

but you try to tell me that original Serbs were E-V13, that they got tribal name and I2a-din from Scordisci... than why would that E-V13 be original when they are not dominant in genetics nor carrier of identity (= tribal name)

Diurpaneus
21-03-12, 16:51
Romanians,South Slavs,Albanians and Carpathian Slavs they all wear Dacian shoes.
Romanian opinca
Albanian opinge


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaPortul/photos/foot_opinci.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorals

http://www.photographium.com/sites/default/files/styles/sidebar_336_total/public/the_opinga_boy._man_and_two_boys_selling_opinga_wh ich_are_sandals._tirana_albania._1923.jpg


Could be related to Puchov or Lipnitsa culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipiţa_culture

Gosh
22-03-12, 02:01
Romanians,South Slavs,Albanians and Carpathian Slavs they all wear Dacian shoes.
Romanian opinca
Albanian opinge


)))) Are they really Dacian?

In sanskrit, word wopanah means- a shoe. Even in Thai language we can meet this word. Moreover, Celts also worn them.

Constantine Porphirogenetus claimed that Serbs got that name from their shoes "which worn slaves" (obviously from similar sounding of words Serb and serv (a slave)).

mihaitzateo
22-03-12, 03:12
pisati = to write

Old romanian word, pisanie ,means an inscription:
http://www.webdex.ro/online/dictionar/pisanie
http://translate.google.com/#ro|en|pisanie
Lawl.
Also županŭ from serbian/croat and old romanian word jupan meaning some kind of boyar.
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/jupan
The things are becoming more and more obvious.
Romania never ever fought against Serbia,in our history is never mentioned about that.
Guess why.
We have a word in Romania,that our best neighbours are Black Sea and Serbia.

mihaitzateo
22-03-12, 03:17
Romanians,South Slavs,Albanians and Carpathian Slavs they all wear Dacian shoes.
Romanian opinca
Albanian opinge


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaPortul/photos/foot_opinci.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorals

http://www.photographium.com/sites/default/files/styles/sidebar_336_total/public/the_opinga_boy._man_and_two_boys_selling_opinga_wh ich_are_sandals._tirana_albania._1923.jpg


Could be related to Puchov or Lipnitsa culture


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAchov_culture)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipiţa_culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipi%C5%A3a_culture)

Great finding!

zanipolo
22-03-12, 08:06
nop you point in a wrong way of understanding,

this has nothing to do with propaganda of a state etc,
but with understanding better migration and Human History,
and stop the charlatans of every country that are paid to make propaganda,
the difference among South Slavs and Thracians is big enough, even in Linguistic and in culture,
simply south Slavic accepted Thracian culture by time, that as also the heritage culture they carry create and their new alliances and religion create modern states in Balkans,

a good example is Cumans, they entered Balkans, they create villages and cities, in Serbia FyroM Romania Albania, but no body talks about them,
if you look modern Cumans they sing and dance just like Serbs Albanians Romanians Greeks, but were they Thracians or Greeks etc?




nope, the road of Severi is beside the road of Bulgars, they came both from Ucraine Moldavia
Severi came first to Romania (Karpatheia) and from there enter Central Bulgaria, Bulgars enter from minor Scythia, to East Bulgaria,
that is why although Bulgars were Huns relative speaking, Bulgaria is a Slavic speaking,
these 2 and the older Thracians and the Serdi create the modern Bulgaria

Serbs and Croats,
Serbs and Croats is another cooperation, that is why the language in 1800 was Serbo-Croatian, and not Severian or Bulgarian.
Serbs and Croat are mentioned to act together from the times of 'white Serbia' and white Croatia and white Russia (Bella Serbia Bella croatia Bella Russia, in Germanic Weiss (west) Serbia weiss croatia Weiss Russ) from there moved west
to Bohemia the Serbs to East Hungary the Croats,
and from there enter Balkans but from the same passage. today's Beograd,
First the Serbs who moved to Nis, to Skopje and then back to Dunav,
then Croats who passed Beograd move to Croatia inland and then to Dalmatia,
so modern Serbs are the Serbs the Thracians and the remnants of Celts east of dinaric Alps
Modern Croats are the Croats the Dalmatians and the population that exist before,
the big difference among inland Croats (not Dalmatians) and Serbs and Bosnians is religion,

The Severi became synonym of what Byzantines call Bulgarians, Severi split and gave the Gorani, Pomaks (the tamrash) etc
Serbs are a clear river culture, the aquatic system of Central Balkans, the one Triballi wanted to control.
Severi are an open country and mountain culture mostly roaming with their animals

either way serdi or triballi , they are both thracian and that means not slavic and that means they did not bring any HG into the balkans except what they where born with.
or are you saying the thracians had I2a-Din

zanipolo
22-03-12, 08:14
sure it does.... there is a chapter on serbs and a chapter on Croats, and chapter of some other south Slavic tribes like Narentanes (area of south Croatia and Croatian Herzegovina) that are classified as Serbs....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PP11#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PP11#v=onepage&q&f=false)

(http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false)http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


I do not negate that some tribes of I2a-din race that spread serb alike tribal names were considered Thracian possible tribes of that race among Thracians are e.g. Triballi and Serdi... I say that only historic source says that modern Serbs origin from people who come from Bohemia and that this is matching other evidence - like divergency of I2a-din, place names, river names, presence of I2a-din south in germany but not in east europe.... my theory is just that those people in fact didnot come but came back to place from which roman empire has pushed them out....




scordisci/serdi is derived from same tribal name as Serbi... hence tribal name may origin from those people...
they did spread along Danube that matches spread of i2a-din and matches precisely the location
where russian primary chronicle places Danubian slavs prior to expansion of Roman empire...


I2a-din spread along Danube and is correlating everywhere in Europe and Asia with names alike to Serbs... Scordisci are one of the tribal names that fit in this I2a-Din Serian/Serres/ Scirii(Sciriians)/ white-Syrian/Scordisci/Kurds/Sherdana(with place named after them being Serbonian bog)/ white Sart, Sart, Serres, Serboi.... correlation is very clear...

but you try to tell me that original Serbs were E-V13, that they got tribal name and I2a-din from Scordisci... than why would that E-V13 be original when they are not dominant in genetics nor carrier of identity (= tribal name)

what page on this link?

you stated in February 2011 that serbs where originally Triballi of thracian stock , now you change your mind?

Yes I am saying the original serbs where thracian and where E HG and inherited maybe I from tthe celts or Illyrians , as both conquered the triballi

Diurpaneus
22-03-12, 09:42
@ Gosh

About opinca.Sanskrit,Dacian/Thracian,Slavic is Satem,while Celtic is Centum.
Albanian also has this word.

mihaitzateo
22-03-12, 13:10
The term used in macedonian ,opinci is identic with the romanian word.
Macedonian is also a south slavic language.
Look at this popular dance from Serbia,from mountains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ssIt3IMcx8
Look at the men costume,that is almost identical with some romanian popular costumes.
Hats are exactly as dacians are depicted to have on Trajan's column and trousers.
There are also romanian popular costumes who have such hats,identical.
Look at this serbian traditional wolf ritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rp6RTIE-QE&feature=related
(can someone translate what the old women is telling?)
Now it is know that dacians were linked to wolves.
And look what is written there:
"Societies in the Serbia respected the wolf. Old Slavs featured their major god Dazbog as a Lame Wolf. Wolves had a strong symbolical meaning amongst the Slavs which was preserved throughout history and then carried on into the Christian era.

The wolf has always played an important role in Serbian folklore, customs and tradition.

It used to be believed that wolves scare away evil spirits and ghosts and protect children from illness and because of this parents gave their children names which derived from the word «wolf»."
Look here also:
http://www.slavorum.com/index.php?topic=1434.15
"One of the most prominent Koledo procession are the wolf-men (vučari).
- It is a procession of young men covered with wolf's skin. They carry a dead wolf with them, filled with straw, through whose body a rod was pulled. The wolf, according to the old religion, represented a man's alter ego, the incarnation of a soul of an ancestor, so the procession was actually composed of deceased ancestors. It was believed that the soul of every Serb could appear in wolf form ."

- Vesna Marjanovic, ethnologist and author of "Masks, masking and rituals in Serbia""
Look at the video with another wolf ritual:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7XpQgGeCbU&feature=player_embedded

And is a tradition in Serbia to put names that contain wolf in them because that is good for the one bearing that name.

Now in romanian you tell at werewolf vârcolac.
And in bulgarian that is върколак which written with latin characters is varcolac.
And in serbian this is called vukodlak.
In czech is vlkodlak,in polish wilkolak,in russian also have the form vurdalak,in ukrainian also have the form vovkulak,in latvian vilkatis,in lithuanian vilkolakis.
This means a man who is transforming into a wolf,in english translation werewolf.
It seems that similar rituals were present at dacians from Romania and Bulgaria also,but were lost.
I think thracians are exactly the slavs,and dacians are the slavs which have mostly I2A.
You will see that in Poland,Czechia,Ukraine,Russia I2A is pretty present.And in Poland were villages of vlachs,is atested documentary.

Gosh
22-03-12, 14:40
@ Gosh

About opinca.Sanskrit,Dacian/Thracian,Slavic is Satem,while Celtic is Centum.
Albanian also has this word.

That's right
but.... I don't know how you could find that this word is exactly of Dacian origin?

Now we know that Sanskrit is formed on the basis of PIE language. That means.... that word already existed in Europe at least 4000 years ago. PIE culture is formed in Balkans.

Yetos
22-03-12, 16:55
I thing we going away from the subject,

Thracian at least from the know vocabulary that is written in Hellenistic has nothing to do with Slavic neither with scythian
but mostly with Greek Anatolian Germanic baltic, it was neither satem for me.

sparkey
22-03-12, 17:09
Is this I2a-Din have any relation with I2a L69?

Sorry, I almost missed this question...

Yes, I2a-Din is L69+. I2a-L69 is also known as I2a1b1, and includes I2a1b1a (AKA I2a-Din) and I2a1b1* (AKA I2a-Disles).

razor
22-03-12, 17:43
With the small point: Nordtvedt's site has Disles as I2a1b1 rather than I2a1b1*

Diurpaneus
22-03-12, 17:53
Southern Ukraine has the lowest East European Admixture but the highest I2a1b.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml

mihaitzateo
23-03-12, 14:39
Dacians battle flag is made from a head of a wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco
Link that with the popular customs from Serbia,those related to wolf.In Romania and Serbia,but more often in Serbia,there are families who have wolf and something as family name,take for example serbian Vuk,Vukovic and so on or romanian Lupu,Lupescu and so on.
(in serbian vuk means wolf and in romanian the word was taken from latin and is lup ).
Is clearly that dacians were speaking a slavic language,after the sonority of today romanian.

Look at this old custom from Serbia,which have also resemblances in Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Christmas_traditions#Koleda
"The koleda was a custom that a group of young men, masked and costumed, went from house to house of their village singing special koleda songs and performing acts of magic intended to summon health, wealth, and prosperity for each household. The members of the group were called koledari. The koleda was carried out from the Feast of Saint Ignatius Theophorus (five days before Christmas) up until the Epiphany. This custom was best preserved in the upper Pčinja District, and in the region around the River South Morava in the Jablanica District, southeastern Serbia. Regarded as pagan and discouraged by the Serbian Orthodox Church, the koleda ceased to be performed among most of the Serbs during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Koledari prepared themselves during several days before the start of the koleda: they practiced the koleda songs, and made their masks and costumes The masks could be classified into three types according to the characters they represented: the anthropomorphic, the zoomorphic (representing bear, cow, stag, goat, sheep, ox, wolf, stork, etc.), and the anthropo-zoomorphic."
In Romania the custom is still kept with people being dressed as bears or as goats.
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.

GloomyGonzales
23-03-12, 15:31
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.

You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.

Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda

Yetos
23-03-12, 15:34
Dacians battle flag is made from a head of a wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco
Link that with the popular customs from Serbia,those related to wolf.In Romania and Serbia,but more often in Serbia,there are families who have wolf and something as family name,take for example serbian Vuk,Vukovic and so on or romanian Lupu,Lupescu and so on.
(in serbian vuk means wolf and in romanian the word was taken from latin and is lup ).
Is clearly that dacians were speaking a slavic language,after the sonority of today romanian.

Look at this old custom from Serbia,which have also resemblances in Romania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Christmas_traditions#Koleda
"The koleda was a custom that a group of young men, masked and costumed, went from house to house of their village singing special koleda songs and performing acts of magic intended to summon health, wealth, and prosperity for each household. The members of the group were called koledari. The koleda was carried out from the Feast of Saint Ignatius Theophorus (five days before Christmas) up until the Epiphany. This custom was best preserved in the upper Pčinja District, and in the region around the River South Morava in the Jablanica District, southeastern Serbia. Regarded as pagan and discouraged by the Serbian Orthodox Church, the koleda ceased to be performed among most of the Serbs during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Koledari prepared themselves during several days before the start of the koleda: they practiced the koleda songs, and made their masks and costumes The masks could be classified into three types according to the characters they represented: the anthropomorphic, the zoomorphic (representing bear, cow, stag, goat, sheep, ox, wolf, stork, etc.), and the anthropo-zoomorphic."
In Romania the custom is still kept with people being dressed as bears or as goats.
Koleda in romanian is colinda (which translates in english by carol ) so is clear the word is coming from same root.
Yes other nations have also the custom to go from house to house on Christmas to sing carols,but the tradition to dress in goat and go sing carols for Christmas I only saw till now at romanians and serbians.


that is much older, ancient IE customs, existed in Greeks thousand years before,

And exist in Kallasha, which means that the custom IS NOT SLAVIC but older (Greek Thracian etc)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338


(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338)

post #12


But has it something to do with the Thread?

Yetos
23-03-12, 15:40
You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.

Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda

Nop it is ancient Greek and Thracian that took it forma at Roman times, not at all Slavic
read above post
Kolenda - καλαντα from roman Calendar
annexation by East Churches only in case that the song say about Jesus etc.

mihaitzateo
23-03-12, 16:28
You are wrong to dress in masks and costumes of animals and sing songs from door to door is typical Slavic custom.

Check it up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koleda

Well when the term slav appeared ?
Dacians are called slavs in an old chronicle dated before 1000 BC,when Charlemagne went on these lands.
This whole thing with slavs coming here is just a forgery.
The bulgars who were an elite warrior tribe,but not very numerous came,and they gave the name to Bulgaria but that does not means that Bulgaria is not having thraco (slavo)-ilyrian population.
They (bulgars) adopted south slavic language and mixed with local thraco(slavo)-ilyrian population.



that is much older, ancient IE customs, existed in Greeks thousand years before,

And exist in Kallasha, which means that the custom IS NOT SLAVIC but older (Greek Thracian etc)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338

(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?20905-European-Christmas-Customs&p=390338&viewfull=1#post390338)
But has it something to do with the Thread?
Yetos get out with your greek propaganda from this thread!
In Greece was taken from south slavs/dacians since there is a lot of I2A in north Greece.
Do you have any popular customs linked to wolf as serbians kept?
NO.
Is so hard to make connection between dacians high importance to wolf and the fact that a lot of serbians have names linked to wolf,with vuc or vuk because is said that is good for the one bearing that name and in romanians,to a lesser extent,are still people that have family name as Lupu or Lupescu?
Or is so hard to make the connection between dacian battle standard which was a head of a wolf and what customs serbs kept with wolf?



Are you blind?You keep negating the obvious truth with popular costumes from Serbia and Romania being almost same?And with popular customs being same and more with the word that is used to name some customs being from same root?There are even same melodic lines,but same,at popular songs from Romania and from Serbia!

Go look how popular costumes of dacians from 2k years ago are depicted on Trajan's Column!
Cause they are same with some romanians popular costumes and some serbian popular costumes!

In case you do not know history Byzantin (greek) Empire/Roman Empire never ruled Romania,except for a short period!
They ruled a little more Serbia.
I2A is dacian/south slavic haplogrup since dacians or south slavs are same thing.
And in Romania is very clearly seen as you move from south to north,how R1A1 percentage raise and how I2A percentage decrease as you move toward east.
Since Bessarabia/Republic of Moldavia got about 30% R1A1 clades and about 30% I2A while romanians from Neamt and Buhusi got 41% I2A and 20% R1A1 clades.

These dacians/south slavs from Romania prefered to adopt a lot of latin words and change gramatics to be closer to latin gramatics,the south slavs from Serbia and Croatia and Bulgaria kept a language more closed to old proto-slavic that dacians were talking.
But we have the diacritics common,more the romanian language have pretty present the sound â as you pronounce in russian name Myskina the y,or more clear how you pronounce ъ in Търново (Veliko Tŭrnovo is a city in Bulgaria : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliko_Tarnovo;now guess what there is a village in Republic of Moldavia called exactly same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%AErnova,_Dondu%C5%9Feni written with romanian letters Tîrnova;the people from Republic of Moldavia are romanians also,but they are calling themselves moldoveni and they say they are speaking moldavian;A third of Romania is also called Moldavia,since old Moldavia now is split in 2 one part,Republic of Moldavia being a separate state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia and Republic of Moldavia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Moldova).
And this sound is from proto-slavic so from this point of view romanian language is also a slavic language.But south slavs also have this sound (you can hear it clear when they pronounce the letters,and also in other words,even though is not written) and no other european language have it except slavic languages and cyrilic alphabet have tow letters for it:
Ы ы (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ieri) or Ѫ ѫ (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ius)

South slavs from Bulgaria and romanians had a kingdom together,how do you think they were speaking,through signs?
Or in latin?
Lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria
In romanian he is called Ioan Asan.
Thracians are still some dacians and ancestors to today bulgarians mostly.
But I think slavs were called generic as "thracians" also sometimes.

mihaitzateo
23-03-12, 17:20
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Look at the percentage of I2A in Belarus (18%) in Ukraine (21%).And from what I understood is pretty present in south-western Russia also with something like 20% or more also.
And I think this is also I2A din,at least according to this map,is I2A1b :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
In Spain,south Italy is I2A sardinian,M26 clade of I2,not I2A-din.

Yetos
23-03-12, 19:05
Yetos get out with your greek propaganda from this thread!
In Greece was taken from south slavs/dacians since there is a lot of I2A in north Greece.
Do you have any popular customs linked to wolf as serbians kept?
NO.
Is so hard to make connection between dacians high importance to wolf and the fact that a lot of serbians have names linked to wolf,with vuc or vuk because is said that is good for the one bearing that name and in romanians,to a lesser extent,are still people that have family name as Lupu or Lupescu?
Or is so hard to make the connection between dacian battle standard which was a head of a wolf and what customs serbs kept with wolf?



Are you blind?You keep negating the obvious truth with popular costumes from Serbia and Romania being almost same?And with popular customs being same and more with the word that is used to name some customs being from same root?There are even same melodic lines,but same,at popular songs from Romania and from Serbia!

Go look how popular costumes of dacians from 2k years ago are depicted on Trajan's Column!
Cause they are same with some romanians popular costumes and some serbian popular costumes!

In case you do not know history Byzantin (greek) Empire/Roman Empire never ruled Romania,except for a short period!
They ruled a little more Serbia.
I2A is dacian/south slavic haplogrup since dacians or south slavs are same thing.
And in Romania is very clearly seen as you move from south to north,how R1A1 percentage raise and how I2A percentage decrease as you move toward east.
Since Bessarabia/Republic of Moldavia got about 30% R1A1 clades and about 30% I2A while romanians from Neamt and Buhusi got 41% I2A and 20% R1A1 clades.

These dacians/south slavs from Romania prefered to adopt a lot of latin words and change gramatics to be closer to latin gramatics,the south slavs from Serbia and Croatia and Bulgaria kept a language more closed to old proto-slavic that dacians were talking.
But we have the diacritics common,more the romanian language have pretty present the sound â as you pronounce in russian name Myskina the y,or more clear how you pronounce ъ in Търново (Veliko Tŭrnovo is a city in Bulgaria : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliko_Tarnovo;now guess what there is a village in Republic of Moldavia called exactly same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%AErnova,_Dondu%C5%9Feni written with romanian letters Tîrnova;the people from Republic of Moldavia are romanians also,but they are calling themselves moldoveni and they say they are speaking moldavian;A third of Romania is also called Moldavia,since old Moldavia now is split in 2 one part,Republic of Moldavia being a separate state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia and Republic of Moldavia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Moldova).
And this sound is from proto-slavic so from this point of view romanian language is also a slavic language.But south slavs also have this sound (you can hear it clear when they pronounce the letters,and also in other words,even though is not written) and no other european language have it except slavic languages and cyrilic alphabet have tow letters for it:
Ы ы (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ieri) or Ѫ ѫ (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ius)

South slavs from Bulgaria and romanians had a kingdom together,how do you think they were speaking,through signs?
Or in latin?
Lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria
In romanian he is called Ioan Asan.
Thracians are still some dacians and ancestors to today bulgarians mostly.
But I think slavs were called generic as "thracians" also sometimes.


What?

Only Slav searchers connect Thracian with Thracian,

And if your customs were Slavic then why Exist in Kallasha people?


SIMPLY CAUSE THEY ARE ANCIENT THRACIAN and GREEK

I AM TIRED TO READ EFFORTS OF MAKING SLAVIC POPULATIONS AS LOCAL IN BALKANS BEFORE 5th CENTURY,

THE WOLF
or LYCAON or ΛΥΚΟΣ FROM LYCAONIA minor ASIA
The wolf Serch ancient Greek History about wolf and wolf trnsformation

THE DRACOΝ which existed in ATHENS comes from virb Δραττωμαι
REMΕMBER THAT ALTERNATE FOR WOLF IS ΔΑΚΟΣ DAKOS not DACI but DAKI from Virb ΔΑΓΚΩΝΩ

STOP F... HISTORY

THERE NO CONNECTION OF I2a as SLAVIC BUT AS THRACIAN

BESIDES
ΔΑΚΟΙ - DACI - DEAUTSCH - DUTCH etc moved west
As GETS ALSO
THE ONLY WHO STAY IN BALKANS ARE THE GREEKS AND THE REMNANTS OF ROMANS AND THRACIANS

GET IN YOUR IND AND START CROSS THE INFOS

SLAVS ENTER FROM THE LAND OF SCYTHIANS SKOLOTOI TO ROMANIA AS SEVERI and TO SERBIA FROM THE GREAT MORAVIA


STOP STILLING ANCIENT THRACIANS AND MAKE THEM SLAVIC POPULATION.


IN WHICH SLAVIC LANGUAGE ΔΑΚΟΣ MEANS WOLF?
BUT IN GREEK IT DOES

As for Lykos Λυκος search the LATIN LUKULUS and Lukuleian dinner (Λυκουλειο Γευμα)
and Lupis (Αλωπηξ)

THRACIANS WERE NOT SCYTHIANS NEITHER SLAVIC

I gave you a good vocabulary
search for more words outside the cheap propaganda fairy stories tellers
Even good Linguists in Bulgaria which is the Heart of what Makedonians name Thrace although they manage to connect, they still reject the idea that Thracians spoke SLavic but a more towards Satem and SLavic than Greeco-Brygian and Centum
while most Greek Thracologist they found a language that was Centum and more to Greek and Germanic-Gothic

AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION

THE I2 IN GREECE IS NOT IN ITS MAXIMUM IN NORTHERN GREECE
BUT NEAR THRACE AREAS AND IN AGRINION FAR AWAY IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH GREECE

TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT
I2A2 DIN S IS SLAVIC ONLY IF WE PROVE THAT ENTERED FROM MORAVIA AND UCRAINE
BUT IF I2A .. DIVERSITY IS BIGGER IN BALKANS
THEN I2A IS THRACIAN WHICH MOVED TO UCRAINE AND TO MORAVIA AND RETURN WITH ANOTHER LANGUAGE

DON'T MAKE SCYTHIANS AND SARMATES THRACIANS

SATEM LANGUAGE MEANS CONNECTION WITH TURKIC POPULATION
ALL CELTIC GERMANIC GREEK ARE NOT SATEM CAUSE DID NOT MIX WITH TURKIC POPULATION


search the etymology ΣΚΩΛΟΤΟΙ to latin SCLAVINI

sparkey
23-03-12, 19:23
THERE NO CONNECTION OF I2a as SLAVIC BUT AS THRACIAN

Yetos, although I don't necessarily agree with mihaitzateo's conflation of Slavs with Thracians and Dacians (I think they simply form important substrata in South Slavs and others, explaining the common traits), I don't think that dismissing the conflation implies that I2a is therefore Thracian. If it was Thracian, we would expect a few things:



High I2a-Din diversity in Thracia, probably higher than anywhere else, given I2a-Din's age
I2a-Din spillover into Anatolia, moreso than into West Slavic and East Slavic populations
A westward cline of the most common I2a-Din subgroup in the Balkans


But we don't see any of these things.

mihaitzateo
23-03-12, 20:27
That sound,â,which is characteristic to slavic languages it shows the continuity of thracians/dacians called also scyths and later slavs in Romania,Serbia,Bosnia,Croatia,Bulgaria and so on.

No one can contest this.
No one can contest either the popular costumes of dacians from Trajan's column and the exact resemblance with today romanians and serbs popular costumes.
This forum is so biased,romanians and croats and serbs and bulgars are called "invaders" after none of this nation made agression wars how most "civilised" european nations did and so on.
If they are invaders,how come they were such peacefull nations in their history?
They invaded once and after stop invaded?
Is not like Roman Empire came here to conquer them,before that the celts tryed to conquer them,after the goths came and ruled them and so on.
Is outrageous how people are allowed to throw lies about romanians,serbs,croatians and so on.

Ye dac-dutch lol,be serious.

And in polish http://translate.google.com/#en|pl|carol koleda is still coming from greek or latin and not from proto-slavic?
Ye sure.
:))
In case you do not know in romanian colinda is a verb and it also means wondering,which is clearly from old proto-slavic.
Or look how you say in old russian at Christmas:
(Old) Russian Koročun
Now in romanian that is Craciun
(when the pronounce the words are very closed).
Is that from greek or latin also?
And you see is old russian,so is clear romanian have also a lot of words closed to old proto-slavic.
Lol.

Serious in Kallasha people are customs to go before Christmas dressed in goat skin and sing carols?
Or are in Kallasha people customs to put names with wolf in them?
Or are Kallasha people linked to the mountains,because you know opinca means original climbing shoe.
Or are in Kallasha people popular costumes that would look similar to serbs/romanians?
No they are not!
Beside,their language is not linked in any way to slavic languages.

How can you explain the serbian traditional saying "only were the wolf and serb can dwell"?

According to a letter of a byzantine noblemen from around 1100 after dacians were beaten in 2nd dacian-roman war in 106 a lot of them run and settled in Elada and other where is today Macedonia,in mountains there so here are the custom from Macedonia (FYROM) which present a very close resemblance to dacians customs which are inherited to serbians,romanians and so on. Those customs there are not from the ancient greek population of Macedonia.So here you have the explanation of I2A from north Greece and FYROM/Macedonia.
Enjoy this map,based on how definite and indefinite article is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EuropeArticleLanguages.png
In Scandinavia is influence from goths,who were influenced by dacians from the time they spent in Romania,Bulgaria and so on.

I really do not care about greek empire/roman empire propaganda which is trying without any solid proof,just forging the real sense of some words,to make romanians,serbs,croats and so on invaders here.
You are just a brain washed greek,who is believing without any proofs greek empire/roman empire lies.


So sorry,but serbians/romanians/bulgars and russians did not take part in those horribile atrocities which were the crusades,where innocent childrens and women were killed,while Byzantin Empire supported the crusaders.
Greeks and other so called "civilised" european nations were the invaders here and now some are trying to pervert history so they can steal our lands,enslave the people and so on.
Look here how rulers of greek ancestry were imposed in Romania and they were opressing romanians from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariotes#Phanariotes_in_the_Danubian_Principali ties

zanipolo
23-03-12, 23:05
Sorry, I almost missed this question...

Yes, I2a-Din is L69+. I2a-L69 is also known as I2a1b1, and includes I2a1b1a (AKA I2a-Din) and I2a1b1* (AKA I2a-Disles).

well I2a1b1 ( L69) was found in a lot of roman people including many emperors who where from dalmatia. Since the romans had no knowledge of slavs then this marker must purely be illyrian of the Dalmatian tribes. And since the greeks had no record of illyrians until 400BC ( BCE) then the marker came from central european migration into the western balkans.
It it was not illyric, then celts where also mixing with illyrian in dalmatia, then it was a celtic marker, either way it can never be brought into the balkans from the east.

Yetos
24-03-12, 01:53
That sound,â,which is characteristic to slavic languages it shows the continuity of thracians/dacians called also scyths and later slavs in Romania,Serbia,Bosnia,Croatia,Bulgaria and so on.

No one can contest this.
No one can contest either the popular costumes of dacians from Trajan's column and the exact resemblance with today romanians and serbs popular costumes.
This forum is so biased,romanians and croats and serbs and bulgars are called "invaders" after none of this nation made agression wars how most "civilised" european nations did and so on.
If they are invaders,how come they were such peacefull nations in their history?
They invaded once and after stop invaded?
Is not like Roman Empire came here to conquer them,before that the celts tryed to conquer them,after the goths came and ruled them and so on.
Is outrageous how people are allowed to throw lies about romanians,serbs,croatians and so on.

Ye dac-dutch lol,be serious.

And in polish http://translate.google.com/#en|pl|carol koleda is still coming from greek or latin and not from proto-slavic?
Ye sure.
:))
In case you do not know in romanian colinda is a verb and it also means wondering,which is clearly from old proto-slavic.
Or look how you say in old russian at Christmas:
(Old) Russian Koročun
Now in romanian that is Craciun
(when the pronounce the words are very closed).
Is that from greek or latin also?
And you see is old russian,so is clear romanian have also a lot of words closed to old proto-slavic.
Lol.

Serious in Kallasha people are customs to go before Christmas dressed in goat skin and sing carols?
Or are in Kallasha people customs to put names with wolf in them?
Or are Kallasha people linked to the mountains,because you know opinca means original climbing shoe.
Or are in Kallasha people popular costumes that would look similar to serbs/romanians?
No they are not!
Beside,their language is not linked in any way to slavic languages.

How can you explain the serbian traditional saying "only were the wolf and serb can dwell"?

According to a letter of a byzantine noblemen from around 1100 after dacians were beaten in 2nd dacian-roman war in 106 a lot of them run and settled in Elada and other where is today Macedonia,in mountains there so here are the custom from Macedonia (FYROM) which present a very close resemblance to dacians customs which are inherited to serbians,romanians and so on. Those customs there are not from the ancient greek population of Macedonia.So here you have the explanation of I2A from north Greece and FYROM/Macedonia.
Enjoy this map,based on how definite and indefinite article is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EuropeArticleLanguages.png
In Scandinavia is influence from goths,who were influenced by dacians from the time they spent in Romania,Bulgaria and so on.

I really do not care about greek empire/roman empire propaganda which is trying without any solid proof,just forging the real sense of some words,to make romanians,serbs,croats and so on invaders here.
You are just a brain washed greek,who is believing without any proofs greek empire/roman empire lies.


So sorry,but serbians/romanians/bulgars and russians did not take part in those horribile atrocities which were the crusades,where innocent childrens and women were killed,while Byzantin Empire supported the crusaders.
Greeks and other so called "civilised" european nations were the invaders here and now some are trying to pervert history so they can steal our lands,enslave the people and so on.
Look here how rulers of greek ancestry were imposed in Romania and they were opressing romanians from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariotes#Phanariotes_in_the_Danubian_Principali ties

1rst you did not read the Link I gave

2nd Byzantine was destroyed by Crusaders
search Crusades especially 4rth
and remember that Greek revolt started in Romania, by phanariotes
if they did not exist Romania still will be under Ottoman empire.

3rd Thracians were not Scythians

4rth Bulgars Cumans ware not IE

5th How can you explain that these Traditions exist in the whole of Greeks
Dedicated to God Komos or Momos and exist even in minor Asian Greeks and Pontic Greeks
were Smyrna and Pontic Greeks Slavic population also?
or Kallasha were they Slavic population?

About the wolf I gave the best explanation and you tell me about a song
DAKOS = WOLF IN WHICH SLAVIC LANGUAGE?

Read the post #12 in the link of Eupedia I gave
Kallasha have same rituals in Christmas (winter's sun position 23 december) and then we discuss again.

Yetos
24-03-12, 02:12
Yetos, although I don't necessarily agree with mihaitzateo's conflation of Slavs with Thracians and Dacians (I think they simply form important substrata in South Slavs and others, explaining the common traits), I don't think that dismissing the conflation implies that I2a is therefore Thracian. If it was Thracian, we would expect a few things:



High I2a-Din diversity in Thracia, probably higher than anywhere else, given I2a-Din's age
I2a-Din spillover into Anatolia, moreso than into West Slavic and East Slavic populations
A westward cline of the most common I2a-Din subgroup in the Balkans


But we don't see any of these things.

1) Well only I know is that Thracians are mentioned existed at about 1200 BC Troyan war?
is that so near or so far?

2) Thracians is not Thrace,
Thrace is an area named after Makedonians at epigoni times,
Before Thrace was Fyrom Serbia Bosnia Bulgaria Turkey Romania and above IStros (Donav) reaching Hungaria as also Kossovo which was considered Dardani an Illyro-thracian
and Getae - Thrace was Bulgaria Romania Moldova Ucraine
in Ucraine we have the first evidence of Scythians and the existance of Sarmates, as also the Greeks,
If you understand that Thracian Lands are from East of Dinaric Alps to Ucraine then you understand that your 1rst and and Second argue is only by a misunderstanding, Odrysse Thracian were not the only ones, Gets Daci triballi etc were Thracians, so the area which today we are naming Thrace does respond to the one area , that they existed,

it is like calling Austrians or Dutch or Saxons as non Germanic cause they are not in Deutshland


3 If the diversity gives I2a2 Din S primary in Central europe and Ucraine ,
Lands that also inhabited by Thracians

4 I wonder which is more new The I Y-DNA in Greece and in minor Asia or the I2a2 DIN S
cause if the case of Agrinion Crete Cyprus and Kurds is later than I2a2 Din then surely I2a2 did enter with Slavic
if I2a2 Din is younger than the I Y-DNA islands in the above then surely is Slavic,
We can not expect I YDNA from Denmark to enter first in Greece Kurds and Cyprus and then the Northern parts of Balkans,
I mean which is the bottleneck or the matrix? from I2a2 Din exit the rest I Ydna in the above areas or not?when

When we talk about Thracians we talk about a Nation or language bigger than Persian empire and second after Indians
nobody knows where was their Starting point
they existed from North Greece to above Hungary to far Russia,
today the similarity is showing Slavic population,
But we know that Scythians pushed Thacians and Getae to West and North after their entrance in Scythia minor,
the area that is known today as Thrace (Greece Bulgaria Turkey) is only the Lyssimachus Kingdom (Alexander's epigoni) so Starting point of Thracians could be Central Europe, or Dinaric Alps or Ucraine or Even minor Asia
Thrace and especially the part that now is in Turkey is a strange area due to Kon/polis and the migration especially of male DNA of soldiers for thousand of Years
it is just searching modern N York to find who were the Indians of Manhattan

and because I want to trust you
the major question which you are called to answer are

1) is I2a2 Din earlier or later of the rest I YDNA in more southerm areas? (Greece Crete Cyprus Kurds) could it work as a matrix , a bottleneck to the others?

2) I2a2 existed at the time 1200 BC? in the same areas?

mihaitzateo
24-03-12, 23:53
As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.

Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/Lifestyle-in-the-Czech-Republic/Tradition/Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".

Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.

This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.

I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.

Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Slavic_europe.svg/500px-Slavic_europe.svg.png
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?

mihaitzateo
24-03-12, 23:57
I made an error on the thread with thracians,in old sagas Odinn is told be to trojan,not thracian,a prince from Troy.
Thracians are said to have been allied with trojans,but not trojans.
In Sarmisegetuza was found an old colored mosaic (which is now destroyed,but there is some reproduction made after it which survived) depicting a scene from Trojan War.
Which can be explained by the fact that dacians were also allied with Troy.
However,that does not makes thracians and dacians same with trojans,since Troy was where is today Turkey,on the east coast of Black Sea (where is today Turkey),while Trakia was where is today Bulgaria.So trojans and thracians were living in different places.
A part of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Dacia Ripensis" another part "Dacia mediteraneea" and so on,while most of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Diocesse of Dacia" while most of today Bulgaria was name "Diocesse of Thrace".

The map can be seen at a larger dimension at :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png)I can not attach here at a decent dimension so you can see what is written on the map.
Which shows that croatians,serbs,bosnians are also dacian populations which is pretty clear if you do not deny the amazing resemblance with romanian popular costumes and with how dacians are represented on Trajan's column.
There is no such a popular costume in Kalasha!
This is old dacian costume!
There are no similar words between Kalasha and romanians/serbian/croatian /bulgarian!

Taranis
25-03-12, 00:16
As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.

Romanian is a Romance language, regardless of it's phonology.


E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.

Haplogroup E-V13 is Neolithic. It has been found in a Neolithic sample from Spain (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26980-G2a-and-E-V13-in-Neolithic-Spain-(5000-BCE)).


In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?

Have you ever wondered how far-fetched and utterly unlikely it is to start arguing genetics and ancestry of an Y-Haplogroup based on folk costumes?! I'm giving you the same advice I've given a couple of over people here already: stop this.

zanipolo
25-03-12, 00:35
As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.

Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/Lifestyle-in-the-Czech-Republic/Tradition/Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".

Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă (http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bund%C4%83)
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.

This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.

I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.

Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Slavic_europe.svg/500px-Slavic_europe.svg.png
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?

i always found this modern map odd, how strange southern slavs are not linked with the other slavs by land?

zanipolo
25-03-12, 00:39
I made an error on the thread with thracians,in old sagas Odinn is told be to trojan,not thracian,a prince from Troy.
Thracians are said to have been allied with trojans,but not trojans.
In Sarmisegetuza was found an old colored mosaic (which is now destroyed,but there is some reproduction made after it which survived) depicting a scene from Trojan War.
Which can be explained by the fact that dacians were also allied with Troy.
However,that does not makes thracians and dacians same with trojans,since Troy was where is today Turkey,on the east coast of Black Sea (where is today Turkey),while Trakia was where is today Bulgaria.So trojans and thracians were living in different places.
A part of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Dacia Ripensis" another part "Dacia mediteraneea" and so on,while most of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Diocesse of Dacia" while most of today Bulgaria was name "Diocesse of Thrace".

The map can be seen at a larger dimension at :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png)I can not attach here at a decent dimension so you can see what is written on the map.
Which shows that croatians,serbs,bosnians are also dacian populations which is pretty clear if you do not deny the amazing resemblance with romanian popular costumes and with how dacians are represented on Trajan's column.
There is no such a popular costume in Kalasha!
This is old dacian costume!
There are no similar words between Kalasha and romanians/serbian/croatian /bulgarian!

IIRC , all thracian people in the ancient times ....dacians, NW area, Getae NE area, Moesians/Triballi SW area and Odysenian SE area.

Old dacian costumes where bought from other tribes because they could not make them , its called trade, most people would have dressed similar

Taranis
25-03-12, 00:44
i always found this modern map odd, how strange southern slavs are not linked with the other slavs by land?

This is hardly unique, however. There's plenty of other examples, historic and present of such a distribution:

Celtic languages (note distribution in Antiquity):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

Turkic languages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Map-TurkicLanguages.png

Uralic languages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

Na-Dene languages:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Na-Dene_langs.png

Yetos
25-03-12, 01:32
As it has already been written the theory with slavs coming from somewhere in Balkans is just a forgery of some from Byzantine Empire.
This is proved very simple,if you look in which countries a slavic language is spoke and you include Romania,since in Romania is spoken also a slavic language,at least as phonology (sonority) which is included when you make a clasification over a language.
Now except Hungary and Austria,the zone in which slavic languages are spoken forms a continuum which proves very very clear the forgery with slavs coming from somewhere.

Take the popular costume from Czechia,for example,the popular costume from Doudlesbko,how the jacket from male popular costume is called there?
Bunda.
http://www.czech.cz/en/Discover-CZ/Lifestyle-in-the-Czech-Republic/Tradition/Folk-costumes
"A “bunda” or short or long jacket was worn with the costume and a fur coat was worn in winter".

Now in romanian language,an exactly similar term exist :
http://dexonline.ro/definitie/bundă
What does this means?
Between other meanings is also used to call the jacket from male popular costumes.

This shows again clearly that the term thracians,when used to tell that they were most numerous after indians in those times is refering to slavs.

I2A din did not came from anywhere,is just a slavic haplogrup,that is more present in south slavs which are same with
dacians.

Howcan someone explain the presence of I2A din in Hungary,in Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary,Poland in pretty significant percentages?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Slavic_europe.svg/500px-Slavic_europe.svg.png
Please include Romania and Republic of Moldavia to this map and see what happens,as south slavic countries,considering the resemblances in words,popular costumes,popular customs,the fact that first written romanian document was in slavonic alphabet and so on.
E-V13 is ilyrian-greek (no ideea if it is greek or ilyrian) haplogrup as origin,but is pretty present in south slavs (dacians) also.However,as you move north the presence of E-V13 decrease.
In Albania there are also very good resemblances in popular costumes,in popular customs,words and so on with Romania.
How can someone explain the fact that I2A din forms a continuum and in this continuum slavic languages are spoken,except Hungary and Austria?

Friend plz
Stop connecting modern costumes and tradition of Slavic with ancient Thracians
Slavic culture exist for 1500 years in Balkans and assimilated older Thraciian

I repeat my even great Linguist altough they accept that there is a Slavic connection an Albanian connection and the Grco Brygian connection they Deny that Slavs = Thracians or Albanians = Thracians or Greeks = Thracians
if Slavic population existed in the times of Herodotus or other ancient Greeks or even at STrabo times they would be named as Slavs all ancient Writers and Roman Historicals and Byzantine etc were not so Stupid.
Thracian culture and Language stop to exist,
1 cause thracian moved,
2 cause Thracian got assimilated when they were Conquered
3 cause Christianity did damage to them as to all other ancient cultures,
cause they got Slavicised or Romanised or Turkish etc

the case of Pomaks in Greece (Tamrash Valley and not the Muslim Slavs) which is area of total isolation
shows 2 major thinks,
South Thracian had Meditterenean autosomal (and east mediterenean major carriers)
Thracians spoke a language that sounds like Slavic but it is not like the known SLavic cause follows other forms and syntax and has root words that are more close to Makedonian dialect,
from the Kallasha we learn transformation and aspirations and I inform the ending -s is not -c

now if today modern Slavic are the second biggest nation that does not mean they were at 400 BC

the writen that are found in Balkans and are in Thracian Language can not be explained by Slavic Language
neither by Greek neither another IE modern Language
THAT IS A PROOVE not an evidence

now still I do not understand what you are trying to prove,

That Slavs and Thracian are the same?
Then why until roman times and after they Used Greek Alphabet and After SLAVIC Devastasion to SOuTH they Change?
why Greek Alphabet for more than 1200 years was used by Thracians and suddenly they decide to change it?
and Bring a new one made in Moravia?

Thracians at 500 AD had 1200 years of using Greek Alphabet and 500 years of Roman-Latin Alphabet
they already accepted Christianity,
WHY THEY ASK FOR NEW ALPHABET 1200 yeas after? AND WHY THEY WERE BAPTISED since in Church chronicles Christianity existed in Balkans already for 500 years,

cause Slavic did not have alphabet (maybe they had Runic) and did not know about Christianity at that time
cause they came from North (Serbs) and East(Severi) and had with them a Huno-ugric tribe as ally (Bulgars etc)

just search how many ancient Thracian written we have and we can not explain them and how man Scythian? (maybe second is 0)

All efforts by Bulgarians Greeks Romanians Baltic etc give a small vocabullary about Thracian which is rejected when we find another,
So many Thracologists and yet we can not reconstruct their language,
cause they try the same, they find dew toponyms and words which might be and start a theory and when another one from another country brings new evidence the theory is rejected or drop,

a good example is the Persian God Methras which means a stone-earth god
in Greek a stone that we throw is μυδρος and the Thracian god was μηθρας
as you see it follows its own phonetic laws



I made an error on the thread with thracians,in old sagas Odinn is told be to trojan,not thracian,a prince from Troy.
Thracians are said to have been allied with trojans,but not trojans.
In Sarmisegetuza was found an old colored mosaic (which is now destroyed,but there is some reproduction made after it which survived) depicting a scene from Trojan War.
Which can be explained by the fact that dacians were also allied with Troy.
However,that does not makes thracians and dacians same with trojans,since Troy was where is today Turkey,on the east coast of Black Sea (where is today Turkey),while Trakia was where is today Bulgaria.So trojans and thracians were living in different places.
A part of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Dacia Ripensis" another part "Dacia mediteraneea" and so on,while most of Ex-Yugoslavia was named those days "Diocesse of Dacia" while most of today Bulgaria was name "Diocesse of Thrace".

The map can be seen at a larger dimension at :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Balkans_6th_century.svg/1000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png)I can not attach here at a decent dimension so you can see what is written on the map.
Which shows that croatians,serbs,bosnians are also dacian populations which is pretty clear if you do not deny the amazing resemblance with romanian popular costumes and with how dacians are represented on Trajan's column.
There is no such a popular costume in Kalasha!
This is old dacian costume!
There are no similar words between Kalasha and romanians/serbian/croatian /bulgarian!

Yes but Kallasha have the ancient ritual of Balkans and the same acts (the wolf the bear the satyrs or pagans the bride the priest the police man etc) the one that Greeks did it mainly from Christmans until Xanthos month (late february until 10 of march)
and Thracians did it at the Bakhus festival days (february to march)
the one that call as Slavic ones
remember Βακχος and Bog have connection but is not same Language,
( I don't know in case of dialect)
I wonder how Kallasha have the same rituals but not the same costumes with Slavs?
maybe cause these rituals were more ancient? lets say Makedonian (skiadion-hat)? Thracian?

Another prove or evidence is the how long are the proto words,
Slavic language has the tense to avoid vowel and uses mainly non vowels,
that is typical that comes from a colder climate than Balkans
If I speak with many vowels I lose warm air from my body,
if I speak with less vowels I keep warm inside of me,
that is why more southern languages use so many vowels and North so many non vowels sounds,
listen to an African and then listen to a North Russian, you realise what I mean,


Besides my basic arguement is that many are told as Proves are just evidence,
I mean that if I2 could be slavic but could also be Thracian,
now the time in History, the diversity laws etc will help us more to realize what is going on,
the more the searches the more the evidence the more we reach truth,
just consider that if I2a2 is from Central Europe and Germanic, then?
if I2a2 din is from ucraine then?
if I2a2 is local Balkanic from 1200 BC then?

many times I am troubled when use HG as a tool to search and not as tool to claim Nation purity etc
I learn that here in this forum.
thanks to the patience of the moderators
Hitler and Napoleon were E-V13

I do not deny that I2a2 might be Slavic and imported in 600 AD or Thracians or germanic, or earlier or younger
simply I put my argue so as the final result to be a clear prove and not an evidence, that doubts to be the little that can be.

the least is that if the word Slav existed in ancient times (before 1rst century) then surely many writers would have written about it.
yet we do no find that words neither as Nations neither as tribes etc until much after, only some toponyms mostly ending in -dava etc

I agree that wolf culture of Dacians passed to modern Romanians and Serbs
But i do not agree that it is imported by Slavs,
The Draco exist also in Greece in minor asia etc,
but exist in Russia in Poland etc ?
compare draco with νομοι Δρακοντα and δρακοσπιτα and virb δραττομαι- δραττω - δρω
surnames that connected with wolf do not mean something
Search Greeks
Αυτολυκος (ancient name famous thief)
Λυκαων
even in modern exist many
in aromani exist the luppis in many surnames
what does that mean?
is it a prove?

By toponyms and their meaning Greek Thracologist find that white in Thracian language was Πελεκος ορ πελεκας
simmilar word existed in minor asian Greek as Βελλεκος
so in Greek becomes Λευκος in Slavic Bjalo Bello etc
in western European languages becomes pale
another example
the Attic Greek for a water spring was φρεαρ and the tap is Κρηνις or κρουνος
then how come modern Greeks and especially the Kon/polis used the word βρυση
the answer comes from Hesychius
Makedonians call the Sping as Βρουαρ Vruar and Thracians as βρuα broussa or Vrousa or Vryasa
so that is why at the times of Justinian we first find the word νιπτηρας and βρυση
another from the Brygian language we know that water was neither Υδωρ neither Voda but Edu
Another is Thracian word for bull was βολινθρος a word that fits with Bulgarian Bol
Another is the word for major builder (architect) καλαφατης (compare Greek Καλος -Καλα Celtic or Latin je Fais which becomes fa or fat)
compare Greek κλινη (clinic after Greek bed) and Thracian word for bed which is κραββατος (κρεββατος) which fits!!!! with the riverbed in Baltic Languages
Compare Dacian Balaur , what it means and with which modern language we can explain it

word for Bread in Thracian is Bekos which fits well with Germanic baker-backwaren and Serbian pekara but does not fit with hleb or khleb or khliyab

As you connection of Thracians with modern Slavic is not correct at least in Linguistic, neither with another IE linguistic family,
if Thracian = Slavic or Slavic dialect then we could explain many of the written, yet there are inscriptions that cannot be explained,

so let me put in another way
Romanians Serbs etc have thracian DNA
but Thracians maybe had not Slavic DNA

so I am still waiting for Sparkey to be sure and claim that. as also new searches to be done

besides the second most numerous at that time could be a family of languages dialects surely not Celts cause Greeks names them and distinguish them from Thracian, but they could be para Germans or a middle one a missing link among east Germanic Goths and Balto-Slavic

mihaitzateo
25-03-12, 13:37
Romanian is a Romance language, regardless of it's phonology.



Haplogroup E-V13 is Neolithic. It has been found in a Neolithic sample from Spain (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26980-G2a-and-E-V13-in-Neolithic-Spain-%285000-BCE%29).



Have you ever wondered how far-fetched and utterly unlikely it is to start arguing genetics and ancestry of an Y-Haplogroup based on folk costumes?! I'm giving you the same advice I've given a couple of over people here already: stop this.

Continue to threat me and I might sue the owner of this site for the fact he put wrong frequencies for I2A for Romania.
To make it short,romanians and serbs and croats did not came from anywhere here,please you continue so I will go to sue you also for trying to say that romanians and serbs are invaders.
I give you and other people posting here a friendly advice,stop negating the truth,romanians know very well that at least 20% of the romanian words are from proto-slavic,there are studies about this and so on.The popular costumes resemblance is a very good argument in an eventual trial.
You think you can just threat people how you like,well,I doubt.So you want to silence me,because you are moderator and you do not agree with what I tell.

Sure a language is classified also by phonology.

mihaitzateo
25-03-12, 14:54
Friend plz
Stop connecting modern costumes and tradition of Slavic with ancient Thracians
Slavic culture exist for 1500 years in Balkans and assimilated older Thraciian


Oh so now I am not allowed to have an opinion,right.
I am not stoping anything,the connection was made before by other romanian scientists,who denied the forgery with romanians being latins.




I repeat my even great Linguist altough they accept that there is a Slavic connection an Albanian connection and the Grco Brygian connection they Deny that Slavs = Thracians or Albanians = Thracians or Greeks = Thracians
if Slavic population existed in the times of Herodotus or other ancient Greeks or even at STrabo times they would be named as Slavs all ancient Writers and Roman Historicals and Byzantine etc were not so Stupid.
Thracian culture and Language stop to exist,
1 cause thracian moved,
2 cause Thracian got assimilated when they were Conquered
3 cause Christianity did damage to them as to all other ancient cultures,
cause they got Slavicised or Romanised or Turkish etc


There are more serious studies which shows even greater connections in gramatics of romanian,bulgarian,serbo-croatian and albanian.There are identical words in romanian and bulgarian (did not checked for serbian).
The first written document in romanian have the introduction written in slavonic and is written with cyrilic alphabet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neac%C8%99u%27s_letter
Romanian can be also very easy included in south slavic languages.

No thracians did not moved anywhere,there are plenty of evidences they did not moved from here.
If there was a migration of thracians,where are the arheological proofs of such a migration,since a migration leave traces.
No one did a red hair gene test to the people in Bulgaria,but if he will do I think the results will be pretty surprising.
To give a small hint,about 40% of the men from old montenegrins had red hair in the beards.
Also a lot of bulgarian men have a few threads of red hair in their beards,so is clear that a lot of bulgarian men carry red hair gene.
Is true that christianity made a lot of thracians and dacians to stop following some of the old customs.



the case of Pomaks in Greece (Tamrash Valley and not the Muslim Slavs) which is area of total isolation
shows 2 major thinks,
South Thracian had Meditterenean autosomal (and east mediterenean major carriers)
Thracians spoke a language that sounds like Slavic but it is not like the known SLavic cause follows other forms and syntax and has root words that are more close to Makedonian dialect,
from the Kallasha we learn transformation and aspirations and I inform the ending -s is not -c
now if today modern Slavic are the second biggest nation that does not mean they were at 400 BC

the writen that are found in Balkans and are in Thracian Language can not be explained by Slavic Language
neither by Greek neither another IE modern Language
THAT IS A PROOVE not an evidence


There is not connection between thracians (slavs) +greeks which were living together with kallasha.




now still I do not understand what you are trying to prove,

That Slavs and Thracian are the same?


There are plenty of people who proved that thracians are same with slavs when is said they are 2nd as numbers after indians.
I am not trying to prove it,since is obvious.As I already written before,there are documets which are telling about vlachs living in Poland.But an even more stronger evidence,which is not taken into account are the hutsuls,which have over 50% I2a din and higher percentages of H of mt-dna.Which shows they are very old europeans (the very high percentage of H on mt-dna).
Hutsuls are living in Carpathians from Romania and in Carpathians from Ukraine.
They are speaking a slavic language,their popular costumes,music are same with romanian/serbian ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls
The ones from Romania ,also have "hora" dance which can also be found at serbians and at albanians and at romanians:
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/RomaniaHistory/minority-hutsul.htm
http://sites.google.com/site/hutzul/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQBB78eXbQc&feature=related
Look a little at their popular costumes.
These people are hutsuls from Bucovina,Romania.



Then why until roman times and after they Used Greek Alphabet and After SLAVIC Devastasion to SOuTH they Change?
why Greek Alphabet for more than 1200 years was used by Thracians and suddenly they decide to change it?
and Bring a new one made in Moravia?

I do not know what you are talking about,dacians did not knew how to write,they were not using any alphabet.
If they were very few between thracians writing some things,that does not means that thracians knew to write or that they were using greek alphabet.
Cyrilic alphabet was made so all people can use it,because it contained also letters for the diacritics.
Which diacritics very "strange" are exactly same in romanian as in other slavic languages.

That was not "slavic devastation" but the attack of free dacians (free south slavs) from where today Romania is and from the mountains,since dacians were staying in the mountains,waiting for the right moment to attack (call it dacian devastation).
Now dacians are called "slavs".
Since not long after that,the romanian-bulgarian empire appeared:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire
Sure dacians where allied with bulgars,which were an warrior tribe came from somewhere in north.




Thracians at 500 AD had 1200 years of using Greek Alphabet and 500 years of Roman-Latin Alphabet
they already accepted Christianity,
WHY THEY ASK FOR NEW ALPHABET 1200 yeas after? AND WHY THEY WERE BAPTISED since in Church chronicles Christianity existed in Balkans already for 500 years,

cause Slavic did not have alphabet (maybe they had Runic) and did not know about Christianity at that time
cause they came from North (Serbs) and East(Severi) and had with them a Huno-ugric tribe as ally (Bulgars etc)

just search how many ancient Thracian written we have and we can not explain them and how man Scythian? (maybe second is 0)

All efforts by Bulgarians Greeks Romanians Baltic etc give a small vocabullary about Thracian which is rejected when we find another,
So many Thracologists and yet we can not reconstruct their language,
cause they try the same, they find dew toponyms and words which might be and start a theory and when another one from another country brings new evidence the theory is rejected or drop,

a good example is the Persian God Methras which means a stone-earth god
in Greek a stone that we throw is μυδρος and the Thracian god was μηθρας
as you see it follows its own phonetic laws




Yes but Kallasha have the ancient ritual of Balkans and the same acts (the wolf the bear the satyrs or pagans the bride the priest the police man etc) the one that Greeks did it mainly from Christmans until Xanthos month (late february until 10 of march)
and Thracians did it at the Bakhus festival days (february to march)
the one that call as Slavic ones
remember Βακχος and Bog have connection but is not same Language,
( I don't know in case of dialect)
I wonder how Kallasha have the same rituals but not the same costumes with Slavs?
maybe cause these rituals were more ancient? lets say Makedonian (skiadion-hat)? Thracian?

Another prove or evidence is the how long are the proto words,
Slavic language has the tense to avoid vowel and uses mainly non vowels,
that is typical that comes from a colder climate than Balkans
If I speak with many vowels I lose warm air from my body,
if I speak with less vowels I keep warm inside of me,
that is why more southern languages use so many vowels and North so many non vowels sounds,
listen to an African and then listen to a North Russian, you realise what I mean,


Besides my basic arguement is that many are told as Proves are just evidence,
I mean that if I2 could be slavic but could also be Thracian,
now the time in History, the diversity laws etc will help us more to realize what is going on,
the more the searches the more the evidence the more we reach truth,
just consider that if I2a2 is from Central Europe and Germanic, then?
if I2a2 din is from ucraine then?
if I2a2 is local Balkanic from 1200 BC then?

many times I am troubled when use HG as a tool to search and not as tool to claim Nation purity etc
I learn that here in this forum.
thanks to the patience of the moderators
Hitler and Napoleon were E-V13

I do not deny that I2a2 might be Slavic and imported in 600 AD or Thracians or germanic, or earlier or younger
simply I put my argue so as the final result to be a clear prove and not an evidence, that doubts to be the little that can be.

the least is that if the word Slav existed in ancient times (before 1rst century) then surely many writers would have written about it.
yet we do no find that words neither as Nations neither as tribes etc until much after, only some toponyms mostly ending in -dava etc

I agree that wolf culture of Dacians passed to modern Romanians and Serbs
But i do not agree that it is imported by Slavs,
The Draco exist also in Greece in minor asia etc,
but exist in Russia in Poland etc ?
compare draco with νομοι Δρακοντα and δρακοσπιτα and virb δραττομαι- δραττω - δρω
surnames that connected with wolf do not mean something
Search Greeks
Αυτολυκος (ancient name famous thief)
Λυκαων
even in modern exist many
in aromani exist the luppis in many surnames
what does that mean?
is it a prove?

By toponyms and their meaning Greek Thracologist find that white in Thracian language was Πελεκος ορ πελεκας
simmilar word existed in minor asian Greek as Βελλεκος
so in Greek becomes Λευκος in Slavic Bjalo Bello etc
in western European languages becomes pale
another example
the Attic Greek for a water spring was φρεαρ and the tap is Κρηνις or κρουνος
then how come modern Greeks and especially the Kon/polis used the word βρυση
the answer comes from Hesychius
Makedonians call the Sping as Βρουαρ Vruar and Thracians as βρuα broussa or Vrousa or Vryasa
so that is why at the times of Justinian we first find the word νιπτηρας and βρυση
another from the Brygian language we know that water was neither Υδωρ neither Voda but Edu
Another is Thracian word for bull was βολινθρος a word that fits with Bulgarian Bol
Another is the word for major builder (architect) καλαφατης (compare Greek Καλος -Καλα Celtic or Latin je Fais which becomes fa or fat)
compare Greek κλινη (clinic after Greek bed) and Thracian word for bed which is κραββατος (κρεββατος) which fits!!!! with the riverbed in Baltic Languages
Compare Dacian Balaur , what it means and with which modern language we can explain it

word for Bread in Thracian is Bekos which fits well with Germanic baker-backwaren and Serbian pekara but does not fit with hleb or khleb or khliyab

As you connection of Thracians with modern Slavic is not correct at least in Linguistic, neither with another IE linguistic family,
if Thracian = Slavic or Slavic dialect then we could explain many of the written, yet there are inscriptions that cannot be explained,

so let me put in another way
Romanians Serbs etc have thracian DNA
but Thracians maybe had not Slavic DNA

so I am still waiting for Sparkey to be sure and claim that. as also new searches to be done

besides the second most numerous at that time could be a family of languages dialects surely not Celts cause Greeks names them and distinguish them from Thracian, but they could be para Germans or a middle one a missing link among east Germanic Goths and Balto-Slavic

I do not have time to answer to everything really,because I think was enough told in the begining - that actually thracians were not using any alphabet,because they were not writing and if they are very few writings,made by some very learned thracians,that does not means "they were using greek alphabet" but it means that the one who made the writting knew greek alphabet :) .
Do you have any documents that are telling about a mass baptism of serbs as it is the case of Kievan Rus?
I doubt.

As for E-V13 is clearly of Balkan origin being greek and ilyrian:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
Another thing there are greeks historians,who are the real greeks and "greeks" historians which are the "greeks" historians from Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) when history started to be forged to serve as a tool for the agression wars of Eastern Roman Empire against other nations.
And calling someone a greek in Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine empire) was something like an insult,being equivalent with a dangerous heretic or something like that.
The Byzatine Empire citisens were not calling themselves anymore greeks but (rofl) romanoi or something like that .

Byzantine Empire was also called Romania (as my country is today wrongly called).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
"The Byzantine Empire (or Byzantium) was the Eastern Roman Empire during the periods of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, centered on the capital of Constantinople. Known simply as the "Roman Empire" (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων, Basileia Rhōmaiōn) or Romania (Ῥωμανία) to its inhabitants and neighbours, it was the direct continuation of the Ancient Roman State and maintained Roman state traditions."

mihaitzateo
25-03-12, 15:17
Romania and Serbia and Croatia did not led agression wars,Romania did once,in WW2 but they were brainwashed by the fanatic nazis to do this and one of arguments used was that "romanians are latins" "slavs are invaders and untermenschen thus they need to be exterminated,let us go attack Russia".
I do not really care what Y DNA had mr Hitler on paternal dna,he was educated in the country you know and had that language you know as maternal language.
He was not educated in Romania neither in some country from south-eastern Europe,neither had romanian as maternal language neither greek,neither albanian,neither serbo-croatian.
Trying to make a connection between Balkans and Hitler is just plain wrong.

Taranis
25-03-12, 15:24
Continue to threat me and I might sue the owner of this site for the fact he put wrong frequencies for I2A for Romania.
To make it short,romanians and serbs and croats did not came from anywhere here,please you continue so I will go to sue you also for trying to say that romanians and serbs are invaders.
I give you and other people posting here a friendly advice,stop negating the truth,romanians know very well that at least 20% of the romanian words are from proto-slavic,there are studies about this and so on.The popular costumes resemblance is a very good argument in an eventual trial.
You think you can just threat people how you like,well,I doubt.So you want to silence me,because you are moderator and you do not agree with what I tell.

Sure a language is classified also by phonology.

I'm not threatening you. You're doing the threat thing all by yourself (see above), that is, threatening the owner of Eupedia (Maciamo).


Oh so now I am not allowed to have an opinion,right.
I am not stoping anything,the connection was made before by other romanian scientists,who denied the forgery with romanians being latins.

... as well as apparently believing into massive academic conspiracy.

I'm done here.

Banned.

Gosh
26-03-12, 16:13
well I2a1b1 ( L69) was found in a lot of roman people including many emperors who where from dalmatia.

May you offer some sources, please?

sparkey
26-03-12, 17:29
May you offer some sources, please?

Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

sparkey
26-03-12, 18:05
1) Well only I know is that Thracians are mentioned existed at about 1200 BC Troyan war?
is that so near or so far?

Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).


2) Thracians is not Thrace,
Thrace is an area named after Makedonians at epigoni times,
Before Thrace was Fyrom Serbia Bosnia Bulgaria Turkey Romania and above IStros (Donav) reaching Hungaria as also Kossovo which was considered Dardani an Illyro-thracian
and Getae - Thrace was Bulgaria Romania Moldova Ucraine

The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.


3 If the diversity gives I2a2 Din S primary in Central europe and Ucraine ,
Lands that also inhabited by Thracians

To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.

But again, I don't see why high diversity areas should be considered less than launching points of I2a-Din... and Central Europe and Ukraine were on the periphery of Thracian expansion, right? So the fit is backwards.


4 I wonder which is more new The I Y-DNA in Greece and in minor Asia or the I2a2 DIN S
cause if the case of Agrinion Crete Cyprus and Kurds is later than I2a2 Din then surely I2a2 did enter with Slavic
if I2a2 Din is younger than the I Y-DNA islands in the above then surely is Slavic,
We can not expect I YDNA from Denmark to enter first in Greece Kurds and Cyprus and then the Northern parts of Balkans,
I mean which is the bottleneck or the matrix? from I2a2 Din exit the rest I Ydna in the above areas or not?

Of the populations you mention, I'm only particularly familiar with Cretans and Kurds. Kurds are data deficient and need more research... we only know the subclades of about 3 or 4 Haplogroup I Kurds, and they all seem to be primarily Central European type subclades (I2a2a/old I2b1, I1). Cretans are also somewhat data deficient, but we have an idea that their I2a-Din is low relative to mainland Greece and probably younger, and their other main clade is I2c-B-Z, which is actually probably even younger, and may have expanded within the Republic of Venice. I don't think either Kurds or Cretans have any particularly ancient I subclades that have been discovered so far.


1) is I2a2 Din earlier or later of the rest I YDNA in more southerm areas? (Greece Crete Cyprus Kurds) could it work as a matrix , a bottleneck to the others?

Personally, I think that Southeast Europe doesn't have ancient I in the same way that Central Europe and West Europe do. See the Paleolithic Remnants map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) and notice the dearth of subclades that have been shown to be ancient in the area.


2) I2a2 existed at the time 1200 BC? in the same areas?

It's doubtful that I2a-Din is even that old... likely, its coalescence age is younger, even if we find an outlier that pushes the TMRCA back.

Yetos
26-03-12, 19:05
Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).



The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.



To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.

But again, I don't see why high diversity areas should be considered less than launching points of I2a-Din... and Central Europe and Ukraine were on the periphery of Thracian expansion, right? So the fit is backwards.



Of the populations you mention, I'm only particularly familiar with Cretans and Kurds. Kurds are data deficient and need more research... we only know the subclades of about 3 or 4 Haplogroup I Kurds, and they all seem to be primarily Central European type subclades (I2a2a/old I2b1, I1). Cretans are also somewhat data deficient, but we have an idea that their I2a-Din is low relative to mainland Greece and probably younger, and their other main clade is I2c-B-Z, which is actually probably even younger, and may have expanded within the Republic of Venice. I don't think either Kurds or Cretans have any particularly ancient I subclades that have been discovered so far.



Personally, I think that Southeast Europe doesn't have ancient I in the same way that Central Europe and West Europe do. See the Paleolithic Remnants map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) and notice the dearth of subclades that have been shown to be ancient in the area.



It's doubtful that I2a-Din is even that old... likely, its coalescence age is younger, even if we find an outlier that pushes the TMRCA back.


So, after all the above text, we get the extract that I2a2 Din probably enter from central Europe with most possible or proper Historical known event the entrance of Serbs, right?
we get that extract mainly due to age (how old) and the diversity law, right?


my last question,
could all this I2a2 Din be a mutation that happened in Balkans from an older I?

sparkey
26-03-12, 19:14
So, after all the above text, we get the extract that I2a2 Din probably enter from central Europe with most possible or proper Historical known event the entrance of Serbs, right?
we get that extract mainly due to age (how old) and the diversity law, right?

I think so, at least for I2a-Din-S, but I admit that it's not 100% known yet. Other possibilities (Illyrians, Dacians, Sarmatians, Thracians, some combination of those...) exist, they just seem to require odd expansion patterns that are possible, just unlikely. And I2a-Din-N is probably less certain than I2a-Din-S at the moment.


my last question,
could all this I2a2 Din be a mutation that happened in Balkans from an older I?

I doubt I2a-Din was founded in the Balkans, it probably expanded there later, due to the same diversity patterns I've mentioned before. Supporters of the Paleolithic continuity theory tend to disagree with me on this point, though.

zanipolo
27-03-12, 07:17
May you offer some sources, please?

Roman/Western Roman Emperors from Dalmatia and Pannonia http://www.metkovic.hr/narona/karta1.jpg

Marcus Aurelius Claudius Gothicus (May 10, 213/214 - January, 270),
His origin is uncertain. Claudius was either from the Sirmium region (in Pannonia Inferior) or from Dardania (in Moesia Superior)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/Antoninianus_Claudius_II-RIC_0137.jpg

Marcus Aurelius Claudius Quintillus (d. 270) was brother of the Roman Emperor Claudius II, and became the Emperor himself in 270.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Antoninianus_Quintillus-s3243.jpg

Lucius Domitius Aurelianus (September 9, 214–275)
Born to an obscure provincial family in Sirmium
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/Aureliancoin1.jpg

Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus (245?–312?)
An Illyrian of low birth from the province of Dalmatia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Dio_coin1.jpg

Marcus Aurelius Carus (c. 230 - late July/early August, 283), Roman emperor (282-283), was born probably at Narbona (more correctly, Narona -- now the ruins at Vid, Croatia) in Illyria, but was educated at Rome.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Carus.jpg

Marcus Aurelius Carinus, Roman emperor, 283 - July, 285, was the elder son of the emperor Carus, on whose accession he was appointed governor of the western portion of the empire.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Carinus.jpg

Marcus Aurelius Numerianus (d. November, 284) - son of the Roman emperor Carus and brother of the Roman Emperor Carinus.

zanipolo
27-03-12, 07:31
Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

I did see I2a1b1 L69.2 somewhere in one of T.Robb links
I will keep looking

anyway , this is his latest from FEB 2012
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroups_I1_and_I2_STR_Branches.pdf

zanipolo
27-03-12, 07:38
I do not relate Thracians to I2a-din but mostly to originally R1a people on which E-V13 + J2 layer was superimposed later (when? with hellenic expansion or with roman expansion?) ... so original language and tribal name of Thracians was probably related to proto-Slavic people....

I2a-Din spread along Danube, so it was probably present in northern Thracians, such as Triballi...regarding attempts to equate Serbs with Triballians... i can accept Triballi being perhaps of Serian stock...hence, Serb or Serian is a race name, Triballians is one of tribe names that might correspond to Terbunions - Serb tribe that settled south east Herzegovina...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de administrando imperio&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q&f=false)

word association again !!!.............very narrow of percentage accuracy to gather info.

In regards to Triballi, I agree they did not have I2a-DIn, but according to Roman historians, the dacia and getae ( thracian people ) north of the danube river could not be defended properly by the Romans against the Goths. They people where migrated into moesia and dardania and the Roamn frontier rested on the danube after that. Are the triballi which are thracian associated with another thracian people the Dacians?

Gosh
27-03-12, 14:15
Not that I know exactly what zanipolo is referring to, but it's possible that he's noticing an L69 in a study other than the L69 that defines I2a1b1. It's a very volatile SNP, and even helps define IJK as L69.1(=G). It also occurs in R1b-L21 and others. It only defines I2a1b1 in its L69.2(=T) form.

I know that zanipolo can't offer such kind of data. Therefore I asked for sources. If we have that kind of data, we'd tell different story about I2a1-Din.

I use to came on this forum not because of a new knowledge but to see imagination of forum members ))))
There's so many crazy theories here to read )))

What to say when pooling results showing this kind of results? )))

I have to say that many people believe in newspaper's articles without to think about a problem wit its own head. Unfortunately, there are some very strange scientists (or "scientists") which intentionally spread wrong information among people. A typical case are the last two "works" from Serbia and Croatia which support theory of Paleolithic continuity without to offer some arguments which will explain their thesis.

Gosh
27-03-12, 14:17
Roman/Western Roman Emperors from Dalmatia and Pannonia




O.K.
but...... where are the data about their haplogroups?

zanipolo
27-03-12, 19:13
O.K.
but...... where are the data about their haplogroups?

I am confused, what data you after. I presented the new data from T.Robb in the recent thread.
Or my theory that I2a-Din was brought from central europe by the illyrians in the late bronze-age/early iron age or
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg

or wiki stating it was from northeast italy actually trento, which i said was always more germanic ( austrian ) than Italian even if itlay owns the area now
(http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg)

Gosh
27-03-12, 19:52
This map is only partially true. For exaple, the eldest MRCA I2a1 M26 are living in southern France, not in Italy.

Illyrians didn't bear I2a1 Din , that's for sure. Take a look on Nordtved's graphs and you'll understand why.

Illyrians were a mixture of J2, E1b-v13, R1b and G2a. A typical pre-Slavic Balkan mixture.

how yes no 3
27-03-12, 22:37
This map is only partially true. For exaple, the eldest MRCA I2a1 M26 are living in southern France, not in Italy.

Illyrians didn't bear I2a1 Din , that's for sure. Take a look on Nordtved's graphs and you'll understand why.

Illyrians were a mixture of J2, E1b-v13, R1b and G2a. A typical pre-Slavic Balkan mixture.

I think not much G2a, instead they had some pre-Illyrian R1a from Pelasgians....

research shows that R1a is ancient old in the area.... we can assume that several waves of R1a did contribute to observed extreme diversity, but still the diversity much larger than elsewhere is likely to point out on ancient old settlement of R1a in Balkans... I think this is related to Pelasgians... that conclusion I had already introduced around 1 year ago on this forum, after comparing spread of R1a in Greece with data about Pelasgian settlements....

south Slavs have single common denominator - I2a-din.... R1a is in Albanians of FYRM significantly higher than in areas like Montenegro, and on roughly same level as in Serbia and FYRM Macedonians
again R1a in Greek Macedonia is much larger.....
only conclusion is that much of R1a was already on Balkan when south Slavic people arrived, while most of I2a-Din was not already there...

in my opinion Pelasgians and Thracians were originally dominantly R1a... i think that before arrival of E-V13 and J2 whole east Europe was R1a area... but that does not mean they were culturally same as proto-Slavic because this was much before Slavic language, and probably in times of proto-PIE language....

i think R1a was spread with Kurgan culture....
although it is ogood theory, I am not sure that PIE language was in fact spread by Kurgan culture...

concerning I2a-Din, pattern of I2a-Din spread along the Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and around it seems clear... the presence of haplogroup I in Asia (in Kurds, Sarbans, Sart, white Sart) seems to match the supposed movement of PIE speakers

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5542&stc=1




http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5543&stc=1


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

around 1800 BC indo-Europeans reached India in a movement starting from Kurdish area...

around 1200 BC "sea peoples" bring down most middle east empires and threaten Egypt... their key stronghold can only be Kurdish area...one of them are called Sherdana and leave place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

it is haplogroup I that spreads from Bohemia down the Danube around Black sea and deep into Asia....

Aryans = Serians?
no, there is no haplogroup I in India.... Indo-Arian settlements match J2....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/IVC_Map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5544&stc=1

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg


perhaps originally Aryans = Syrians = Sumerians = J2...
Strabo says that both tribes of Cappadocians are white Syrians different from other Syrians by brighter skin, and he says that Syrian = Sumerian

note that Serica in north west China is reach in both J2 and I


perhaps Sumer was originally J2 (pay attention to elevated spread of J2 in area of Sumer)..those people later spread to north and part of them (white Syrians) has at some point incorporated some I2a people who were originating from Europe area around Black sea, area with milder climate, and had hence brighter skin...thus, J2 with some I2a gave white Syrians...

perhaps Sumerian empire could be responsible for spread of J2 and I2a further to east... to area where much later Pomponius Mella finds Serres between Scythians and Indians...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png


Cappadocia is J2 hotspot...
same as Syria

J2 is origin of names Syrian and white Syrian and Aryan....

I2a in Asia had tribal names such as Sherdana, Sarbans, Sart, Scordisci, Kurds ....

I2a in Asia came from Europe via Black sea
I2a in Balkans came from central Europe...question is with Serbs and Croats or before?
both... early ones with Scordisci and later one with Serbs.. unless those are same people...


Sumer was on other hand not PIE speaking, so the PIE language came from I2a people :)
hence the weird saying of Serbs "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

imposing the language could have come only through superior military or culture... i place bets on military...it is around 2150BC that Gutians come down from Zagros mountains (where Kurds live) and take over Sumer and rule over it for 100 years... later Akkadians and than Elamites took over.... but Cappadokians (and perhaps some more east colonies) could have stayed under control of Gutians...giving white Syrians....and spreading PIE language in area of Serres - that stretched between Scythians and Indians.....PIE language reached Indians in 1800 BC

peoples name white Sart is perhaps not the same in origin as white Syrian
white Syrian meant whiter Syrians, while white Sart meant west Sart, same as white Serbs meant west Serbs......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

so could PIE people be Gutians and could this tribal name be same as Goths?

"letopis popa Dukljanina" (chronicle of priest Dukljanin" claims that south Slavs are just Goths...
in fact we know that Odoacer leader of Goths was half-Scirian and I have explained possible link Scirii- proto-Serbs, as Scirii are found in locations where we find I2a-Din south (near Baltic and in Bohemia/Bavaria)....Scirii/Hirri being paired in same way as Srbi/Hrvati.... Heruli (same as earlier Hirri in my opinion) disappearing from history on place where imediatelly after state of Hrvati appear...
origin of I2-din could geographically and genetically fit nicely in originally east germanic branch of people... but its just an idea... main dialect of Kurds is Sorani, part of it bares name Garmiani... to me that is same as Germani...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Dialects.jpg

Taranis
28-03-12, 06:45
I have moved the discussion about the Thracian language to here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27411-The-Thracian-language-(OFFTOPIC-from-I2a-Din-on-the-Balkans)&p=393681#post393681).

zanipolo
28-03-12, 06:46
Right, that's a bit old for what we know about I2a-Din. I'd expect I2a-Din to be as old as the J2, R1b-ht35, etc. in the region, not younger, as it appears to be. So I guess Thracians to have had a plurality of J2 (but admit I know less about the non-I haplogroups in the region).



The core area of the Thracians is still south of where I2a-Din apparently expanded from, then... unless we're thinking that they expanded northward, took I2a-Din peoples into their population, and then expanded southward again, but I don't see historical attestation of the second part of that equation. I suppose it's not impossible that there was genetic expansion within an existing population, it just seems like a poorer fit to the data.



To be clear, the high diversity area of I2a-Din-S is Central Europe, but the high diversity area of I2a-Din-N and therefore I2a-Din as a whole is Ukraine... S doesn't really have significant representation in Ukraine.



KN noted that this marker I2a DIN-N was 2550 years and in the pripet marshes of Ukraine, trouble is that the russian genealogitis on this same maker find nothing older in the russian samples than 1830 years old and also they have no DYS19=14 croatian marker which is in croatia.

This high concentration of this marker can also be the celtic/illyric movement down the danube to the black sea.

It seems KN is partly correct.

As to I2a Din-S , well thats another story

people did migrate from west to east, before migrating east to west

how yes no 3
28-03-12, 09:54
so could PIE people be Gutians and could this tribal name be same as Goths?

"letopis popa Dukljanina" (chronicle of priest Dukljanin") claims that south Slavs are just Goths...

in fact we know that Odoacer leader of Goths was half-Scirian and I have explained possible link Scirii- proto-Serbs, as Scirii are found in locations where we find I2a-Din south (near Baltic and in Bohemia/Bavaria)....

Scirii/Hirri being paired in same way as Srbi/Hrvati.... Heruli (same as earlier Hirri in my opinion) disappearing from history on place where imediatelly after state of Hrvati appear...

origin of I2-din could geographically and genetically fit nicely in originally east germanic branch of people... but its just an idea...

main dialect of Kurds is Sorani, part of it bares name Garmiani... to me that is same as Germani...


Pliny records Scirii and Hirri on Vistula among Venedi and Sarmatians !
hence in core area of early Slavs...

Jordanes puts Scirii among Alans (Sarmatians) and Procopius among Goths and Alans....

Sidonius enlists them in Attila's army...
2 recorded leaders of Scirii have Germanic names: Edica & Wolf

Grimm interprets historic sources concluding that if Scirii were not Gothic, they were connected to Goths in many ways..
http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9AAAAcAAJ&dq=scirii tribe history&hl=nl&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=sciri&f=false xcvii

zanipolo
28-03-12, 11:30
Pliny records Scirii and Hirri on Vistula among Venedi and Sarmatians !
hence in core area of early Slavs...

Jordanes puts Scirii among Alans (Sarmatians) and Procopius among Goths and Alans....

Sidonius enlists them in Attila's army...
2 recorded leaders of Scirii have Germanic names: Edica & Wolf

Grimm interprets historic sources concluding that if Scirii were not Gothic, they were connected to Goths in many ways..
http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9AAAAcAAJ&dq=scirii tribe history&hl=nl&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=sciri&f=false xcvii

what are you trying to say?

did you read the link you provided?

if you notice pagina cxxvii ......he states the tribes that lived along the vistula, the sarmatis , ( commer) venedis, (commer), Scirii, (commer), hirri in no particular order, not like ptolemy which placed them on the map

how yes no 3
28-03-12, 13:48
what are you trying to say?

did you read the link you provided?

if you notice pagina cxxvii ......he states the tribes that lived along the vistula, the sarmatis , ( commer) venedis, (commer), Scirii, (commer), hirri in no particular order, not like ptolemy which placed them on the map

Vistula is central area of early Slavs...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

Yetos
28-03-12, 14:42
Vistula is central area of early Slavs...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

Nop
Herodotus describe them as culture that dwell in wooden tents and tarandos breeders,
geografical area is from Crimea -ucraine but their homeland is far North of the river,

the only reindeer Breeders we know are finns and saami Suomi, possible 'broken telephone' of Suomi to Sauromates

so when we speak about a clear Sarmates we speak about a North nation that is not goat Sheep or cattle breeders but reindeer,

the case of alliance of Scythians with Sarmates or Finno Ugric is another case, and that is what I believe as the creation Era of Skolotoi σκωλοτοι to Sclavini the starting of what is known today as Slavic,
Possible linguistic origin major Sythian +sarmatian.
that is my personla opinion, and I think is correct, if Serbs enter from bohemia to Balkans, and Severi from Dacia

zanipolo
29-03-12, 06:54
Vistula is central area of early Slavs...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs who migrate from Danube area to Vistula when pressed by expanding Roman empire......

and Vistula is where following tribes dwell: Scirii and related Hirri, Sarmatians and Venedi....

Venedi could be forfathers of either Balts or west Slavs ...
note that west Slavs carry dominant R1a typical for Europe indicating extremely long presence in Europe...this R1a is ancient old in Serbia, which is the reason I relate west Slavs - Poles (or field/flatland people where slavic word 'polje' = field) with Pelasgians (again meaning field/flatland/sea people)via Pannonians....

an idea: Pan-onians could be race name of same origin as Ven-edi
having root word Pan/Ven with different transcription and endings depending on language that records them....

Sarmatians would be forfathers of east Slavs....

Scirii and Hirri would in such a scenario map to south Slavs...they would originally be I2a people, while Sarmatians and Venedi are originally R1a people....but with different ratios of R1a M458 and R1a* xM458
Sarmatians being more recent arrival from east and largely lacking M458 marker typical for Europe and ancient old in Balkan where Pelasgians dwellt...

who are you trying to fool with this map, it is more than 500 years after the book link you presented. Don't you see on the map that italy is gothic , does that not represent something completly different to what pliny wrote?

If you are trying to link the sarmatians with slavs before 600AD , I am afraid you are in dream land. The sarmatians is a name give to 4 tribes of which all are either eastern persian or northern turkic people.

Please read history on sarmatians in early times and do not start your history at the end of the western Roman empire times

how yes no 3
29-03-12, 21:22
who are you trying to fool with this map, it is more than 500 years after the book link you presented. Don't you see on the map that italy is gothic , does that not represent something completly different to what pliny wrote?

If you are trying to link the sarmatians with slavs before 600AD , I am afraid you are in dream land. The sarmatians is a name give to 4 tribes of which all are either eastern persian or northern turkic people.

Please read history on sarmatians in early times and do not start your history at the end of the western Roman empire times

i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct)

1) most of west and south Slavs have genetics (R1a- M458 and I2a-din) that indicates that their ancestors were in Europe much much before E-V13, J2 people and R1b people....with east Slavs whose R1a is of same type as the one in Nordic countries and parts of Asia its more difficult to prove this.. but from what we know about genetics we can be sure that at least core of people from whom west and south Slavs origin were in Europe in ancient times.. in fact R1a-M458 is clearly unprecedentedly ancient old in Serbia, which is why I relate Pelasgians (= field/flatland/sea people) with Poles (Poljaci = field/flatland people - Slavic "polje" = field) - this is further confirmed by south Slavs being distinguished from surrounding peoples by I2a-din and not by R1a, and from what I looked into a year ago also by elevated R1a in the areas where Pelasgians remained in ancient Greece...I2a-Din shows clear spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea

2) Russian primary chronicle states that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube area to Vistula area when Roman empire (Vlakhs) entered their lands and started molesting them... among those who moved it explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats

3) Roman empire spread to Danube before or around 0AD

4) Pliny records around 50-79 AD that in Vistula area live Scirii and Hirri, Sarmati and Venedi...he records no one else, just those 4 tribes... hence among them are Danubian Slavs, Serbs and Croats


5) around 500 AD Slavic people are recorded on large territory from Black sea shores north of Carpathians all the way to Bohemia and east Germany.... as the map shows, area of Vltava is in the middle of that spread indicating that area of Vltava might indeed have been core area of early Slavs


and some bonus homework for you:

if for Roman writers later Slaveni are transcribed as Sclaveni
than Scirii/Scirians were in fact Sirians or Serians....
Hirri are easily same people as Heruli...

Serians are mentioned by Seneca (4 BC – 65 AD) as brave people known by daring to cross frozen Danube on bare feet - (hence they live in proximity of Danube), by rulling over scattered Scythians (east Europe => I2a-Din), by living unguarded among Sarmatians (there was tribe Serboi in Asian Sarmatia), by living in Serica (north of Tibet where there is still some haplogroup I and where people know as Sart and white Sart live)....

Scordisci live around Danube..they disappear from history when Roman empire reaches them...
they disappear or they are just further recorded under the same name under which Seneca records them around Danube and in east Europe and in Asia - Serians or in the way Roman historian would write it Scirian

now the link to the book given above shows that Scirii are also found in Bavaria/Bohemia, which is area from which white (west) Serbs come to Balkan according to recorded history...

Heruli on other hand disappear from history maps on place where state of white Croats appear a bit later..

it makes sense also genetically... I2a-Din South typical for Serbs and Croats seems to origin from central-north Europe - it is not found in Ukraine but is found in Germany....distantly related (but much much much closer than R1a) I2b is Germanic marker, I1 as well...while I2a1 is typical for Sardinians (similar tribal /race name)...

in addition there is medieval chronicle that claims how south Slavs are Goths which is not hard to imagine knowing that Odoacer was half-Sciriian and that Scirri were said to have been either Goths or related to them....

and there is a claim from archaeology that Serbs and Croats when settling ex-yugoslavia have different burial practices from other Slavic tribes....and also different among themselves...

zanipolo
29-03-12, 21:45
i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct)

1) most of west and south Slavs have genetics (R1a- M458 and I2a-din) that indicates that their ancestors were in Europe much much before E-V13, J2 people and R1b people....with east Slavs whose R1a is of same type as the one in Nordic countries and parts of Asia its more difficult to prove this.. but from what we know about genetics we can be sure that at least core of people from whom west and south Slavs origin were in Europe in ancient times.. in fact R1a-M458 is clearly unprecedentedly ancient old in Serbia, which is why I relate Pelasgians (= field/flatland/sea people) with Poles (Poljaci = field/flatland people - Slavic "polje" = field) - this is further confirmed by south Slavs being distinguished from surrounding peoples by I2a-din and not by R1a, and from what I looked into a year ago also by elevated R1a in the areas where Pelasgians remained in ancient Greece...I2a-Din shows clear spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea

2) Russian primary chronicle states that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube area to Vistula area when Roman empire (Vlakhs) entered their lands and started molesting them... among those who moved it explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats

3) Roman empire spread to Danube before 0AD

4) Pliny records around 50-70 AD that in Vistula area live Scirii and Hirri, Sarmati and Venedi...he records no one else, just those 4 tribes... hence among them are Danubian Slavs, Serbs and Croats


5) around 500 AD Slavic people are recorded on large territory from Black sea shores north of Carpathians all the way to Bohemia and east Germany.... as the map shows, area of Vltava is in the middle of that spread indicating that area of Vltava might indeed have been core area of early Slavs


and some bonus homework for you:if for Roman writers later Slaveni are transcribed as Sclaveni
than Scirii/Scirians were in fact Sirians or Serians....
Hirri are easily same people as Heruli but recorded in different times

Serians are mentioned by Seneca as living along Danube in Europe and in various areas of Asia and also rulling over scattered Scythians....

Scordisci live around Danube..they disappear from history when Roman empire reaches them...
they disappear or they are just recorded under the same name under which Seneca records them around Danube and in east Europe and in Asia - Serians or in the way Roman historian would write it Scirian

now the link to the book given above shows that Scirii are alos find in Bavaria/Bohemia, which is area from which Serbs come to Balkan according to recorded history...

Heruli on other hand disappear from history maps on place where state of white Croats appear a bit later..

Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.

the sarmatians at the time of pliny where eastern persian people, actually depends on which sarmatians.
Sarmatae is in origin probably just one of several tribal names of the Sarmatians which came to be applied to the entire group as an exonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym) in Greco-Roman ethnography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_ethnography). Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) in the 1st century names as the main tribes of the Sarmatians the Iazyges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges), the Roxolani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani), the Aorsi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorsi) and the Siraces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces).

the roxolani where near the black sea, iazyges, next to them, so the "vistula" sarmatians where the Aorsi (alans) or Siraces.
the alans where from ossetia and the Siraces from the caucasus mountains region5556

map is original slavs, who can base their true homeland around modern Kiev.

Danubian slavs? ....thats a dream, you need to say the thracian dacians or Getaes.

I already noted that russian geneologists have ruled out one marker of the I2a-Din which is in the balkans but not in the ukraine. and there marker of I2a-Din emerged in ukraine only in the year 250AD. Clearly a date when the scirii who had already migrated from eastern germany to the danube basin fought with the celts against the sarmatians ( roxolani )


the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia
Bulgarians = turkic people

These tribes in the balkans learned slavic by firstly the turkic bulgars who learned it and then by severians from eastern ukraine who moved as far south as thessally in 600AD.
the only "true" slavs who came from the map included where the Poles who originated in eastern Kiev.
this theory that I2a-din came from slavs is truly false. Because I believe by facts and logic that it originated in central europe more than 700 years before the slavs entered europe ( as in eastern poland to moldovia )

EDIT - you need to get your hands on this book, which updates every 20 years and basically notes all ancient historians and concludes what they where trying to say

Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind: Ethnography of Europe. 3d ...
By James Cowles Prichard

how yes no 3
29-03-12, 22:13
Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.
to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly somewhere there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire


the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia

i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...

zanipolo
29-03-12, 22:31
to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire


i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...

the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss

how yes no 3
29-03-12, 22:37
the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss

??? do you read what you write?

do you understand that a group of people living in some area and having most recent common ancestor estimated to have lived 2500 years ago doesnot imply that the common ancestor also lived in that area?

how difficult is that to understand?

Taranis
29-03-12, 22:38
i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct).

how yes no, I'm giving you the same advice that I have given to a number of other people: stop spreading your own agenda-driven revisionist fantasies here on Eupedia.

I don't want to go into detail, but: the idea that the original homeland of the Slavs was in modern-day Czech Republic is something complete bare of any evidence, especially because we have multiple historic sources that tell us consistently that the situation was very different: Strabo's Geography (book 7, chapter 1.3 and 1.5 - and also chapter 2.2) and Ptolemy's Geography (book 2, chapter 10), as well as Tacitus' Germania (chapter 28 and chapter 43). By the time the Romans reached the Danube, the Germanic Marcomanni occupied Bohemia. These, in turn, had conquered it in the 1st century BC from the Celtic Boii. Knowing from your past activities on this forum, you will probably argue that the Boii were actually Slavic, but at that point I would like to remind you that the Boii were one of the Celtic tribes that invaded northern Italy, occupying the city that was known to the Romans as "Bononia" (modern Bologna). For reference, check out Livy, "Ab Urbe Condita" - book 5, chapter 34 and 35. There's no evidence of the Slavs in Central Europe before the Migration Period, and there's certainly no evidence of Slavic presence in Italy in Antiquity!

Trying to link the Slavs with the Sea Peoples or the "Pelasgians" (whoever these were) and attempting to draw a line of continuity into the Paleolithic is something where we're firmly in the realm of fantasy. Likewise, your attempts to link vaguely similar-sounding names (without any sort of regularity) with each other, and linking them with Y-Haplogroups has also no basis of any kind in facts.

Another aspect that I would like to bring up are the Sardinians. Sardinians are mostly G2a (a Neolithic Haplogroup), and I2a1a (I2a-M26). This is a different subclade from the one found on the Balkans and in eastern Europe (I2a1b), and the common ancestor of these two Haplogroups was some time in Neolithic or even Mesolithic times. Additionally, I2a-M26 is nowhere found on the Balkans, but instead has ties with western Europe (in particular the Basque country and Catalonia). In any case, there is no link between Sardinia and the Balkans / Eastern Europe. It's possible that the ancient Sardinians were one of the Sea Peoples (the ones called "Sherden" or "Sherdana" in the Egyptian sources), but this too is disputed (http://repub.eur.nl/res/pub/7686/Woudhuizen bw.pdf).

Getting back on the original topic of the thread and the poll:

My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.

sparkey
30-03-12, 00:31
My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.

Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?

Taranis
30-03-12, 00:39
Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?

I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.

Gosh
30-03-12, 01:06
I think not much G2a, instead they had some pre-Illyrian R1a from Pelasgians....

research shows that R1a is ancient old in the area.... we can assume that several waves of R1a did contribute to observed extreme diversity, but still the diversity much larger than elsewhere is likely to point out on ancient old settlement of R1a in Balkans... I think this is related to Pelasgians... that conclusion I had already introduced around 1 year ago on this forum, after comparing spread of R1a in Greece with data about Pelasgian settlements....

Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.



south Slavs have single common denominator - I2a-din.... R1a is in Albanians of FYRM significantly higher than in areas like Montenegro, and on roughly same level as in Serbia and FYRM Macedonians
again R1a in Greek Macedonia is much larger.....
only conclusion is that much of R1a was already on Balkan when south Slavic people arrived, while most of I2a-Din was not already there...

Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.




i think R1a was spread with Kurgan culture....
although it is ogood theory, I am not sure that PIE language was in fact spread by Kurgan culture...

It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.




I2a in Asia had tribal names such as Sherdana, Sarbans, Sart, Scordisci, Kurds ....

Where we can see that data?

Gosh
30-03-12, 01:11
KN noted that this marker I2a DIN-N was 2550 years and in the pripet marshes of Ukraine, trouble is that the russian genealogitis on this same maker find nothing older in the russian samples than 1830 years old and also they have no DYS19=14 croatian marker which is in croatia.


Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.
As the 2nd, it doesn't exist even in the nearest regions to Dalmatia.
As the 3rd, it is another one fact that I2a in Balkans aren't a result of a Paleolithic continuity.

zanipolo
30-03-12, 01:14
I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.

I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.

sparkey
30-03-12, 04:23
I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.

I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

zanipolo
30-03-12, 04:38
I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

are you referring to this below

I2c - L596, L597 is a relatively recent discovery for those previously labelled I2*. The group within it labelledB (A) in Family Tree DNA I2* Haplogroup Project results (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) is particularly interesting for its distribution around the Black Sea, including Armenia. It seems likely that the I2* in Armenians reported in a recent paper13 is actually I2c. Several Indo-European languages seem to have arisen on the western shores of the Black Sea, but eventually spread into Anatolia. Armenian made a further move from central Anatolia to Armenia. (See Near Eastern Neolithic: Languages and Y-DNA (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/neolithic.shtml#languages).)

OR
L473 ?

zanipolo
30-03-12, 04:39
Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.


where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o

zanipolo
30-03-12, 05:16
I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

Gosh
30-03-12, 13:01
where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o

Check KN writings on Bresnan.net site
Moreover, that Dalmatian DYS19=14 was brought to Dalmatia from Bosnia.

BTW, do you really think that some I2a-Din DYS19=14 is elder than DYS19=16, for example?

sparkey
30-03-12, 17:36
the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

I suppose it's possible that you're right here, considering that there is some overlap between the "Venetian" type and the "Armenian" type of I2c-B, but I suspect not at the moment, since both are younger than the early "Celtic" branches, and my theory suggests that there ought to be overlap, anyway.


lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I don't think that they only had one haplogroup, I just think that while I2c-B may fit the pattern you're describing, I2a-Din apparently doesn't. FWIW, I also think the Celts had I2a2b and others.

MOESAN
30-03-12, 23:34
the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I agree, but only partially : sure, Celts carried more than an HG but Y-I no more than Y-G2 ever was an important part of their demography and movements - their basis was and stays western Y-R1b I believe- so even if they carried some Y-I2a1b (as some Y-I2a2) it cannot explain the high levels of this HG in North Balkans -

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 02:12
Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

R1a1a*(xM458) is oldest in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India and is there 14kya old, while in Serbia it is 11kya....

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi


Julius Pokorny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Pokorny) derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain").[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-8) He details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone)'s Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-9) If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.
The ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Klein) therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-10)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....


Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.
there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...




It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.
what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?




Where we can see that data?
in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

zanipolo
31-03-12, 03:42
paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

so, we established that marker R1a-M458 is a thracian marker, thanks for info!


those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

I seen many greek maps where they noted the thracians lived up to the baltic sea, but I cannot read greek.



i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

you are wrong, there is no anti-slavic , there is only pro-slavic people here who assume that since you speak a slavic language now, and living in a area, then that area was always slavic and the previous owners of this area did not exist.
We might as well say we originated from England because we speak english



furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

could be only roman remaining outposts as the Romans fought the pathians there for a very long time.
similar to I- illyric markers in Britain.



I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....


Scordisci = gaulish celt people who took with them the remaining boii, tectosages and taurisci people.
Strabo says this mix of people where known as galatae


Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

there is a serdi tribe SE of triballi thracian people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracian_state.png

Yetos
31-03-12, 09:22
we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...
i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...
what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?
in my posts :)
data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...
regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

You speak about Anti slavic propaganda, and you push Panslavism,

you even make pelasgians as IE and more specific Slavic,

you make Poland a Pelasgian nation,
you read Duridanov which connects mostly a part of Thracian with Slavic and as blind you did not search his work and in other languages, something which I am forced to do in the next days showing what Duridanov did not write

well pelasgians

compare Thyrrenians with island of Therra (cycladetic)
compare Pelasgians with Palestinians with Philistines with Faliski
search the lemnian stele
and if you want more Hattika Eretreia orchomenos relative cities of Pelasgian as we known by ancient Greek authors (Athens was Speaking Thyrrenian according Thoukidides if I remember correct.
Just also compare Ερετρεια Εret with Raetia


you speak of Anti-Slavic while you push Pan-Slavism

well the answer is no,

Slavic language has nothing to do with Thracian and Pelasgian
it is imported to Balkans by Great Moravia (Serbs) and low ucraine (Severi-Bulgars)

the case that Thracian and Slavic are IE does not mean that they were the same language,
in Fact I believe that Thracian was Centum, and I am waiting Taranis to search it by a good vocabulary
simply the existance of Thracian IE next to Scythian IE makes these 2 language to be near,
but soon I will write about that, proving that Thracian language was not Slavic,

now it is another case the people and another the language
Greeks once reached Indians,
Greek language once was spoken in such areas
what that mean?
that all Indians are Greeks?
cause the same is what you do, Poles as Pelasgians !!!!!
well global warming is raising sea lvl, if krakowy becomes a sea harbor in future then I might agree,

as for AVARS search better who were the Hrpt tribe
before you speak about Sherdana scirii serrians etc
if AVARS were J2 Hg then Hungary will be full of J2

now if R1a or J2 in Greece was from Avars then it will not be present in South Italy, in Grico people,


I believe that in 21 century Europe ignorance is not a crime, thinking even wrong is not a crime, but i wonder what is the limit, the boarder of the 2 above with payed focusing agendas.

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 12:34
You speak about Anti slavic propaganda, and you push Panslavism,

you even make pelasgians as IE and more specific Slavic,

you make Poland a Pelasgian nation,
you read Duridanov which connects mostly a part of Thracian with Slavic and as blind you did not search his work and in other languages, something which I am forced to do in the next days showing what Duridanov did not write

well pelasgians

compare Thyrrenians with island of Therra (cycladetic)
compare Pelasgians with Palestinians with Philistines with Faliski
search the lemnian stele
and if you want more Hattika Eretreia orchomenos relative cities of Pelasgian as we known by ancient Greek authors (Athens was Speaking Thyrrenian according Thoukidides if I remember correct.
Just also compare Ερετρεια Εret with Raetia


you speak of Anti-Slavic while you push Pan-Slavism

well the answer is no,

Slavic language has nothing to do with Thracian and Pelasgian
it is imported to Balkans by Great Moravia (Serbs) and low ucraine (Severi-Bulgars)

the case that Thracian and Slavic are IE does not mean that they were the same language,
in Fact I believe that Thracian was Centum, and I am waiting Taranis to search it by a good vocabulary
simply the existance of Thracian IE next to Scythian IE makes these 2 language to be near,
but soon I will write about that, proving that Thracian language was not Slavic,

now it is another case the people and another the language
Greeks once reached Indians,
Greek language once was spoken in such areas
what that mean?
that all Indians are Greeks?
cause the same is what you do, Poles as Pelasgians !!!!!
well global warming is raising sea lvl, if krakowy becomes a sea harbor in future then I might agree,

as for AVARS search better who were the Hrpt tribe
before you speak about Sherdana scirii serrians etc
if AVARS were J2 Hg then Hungary will be full of J2

now if R1a or J2 in Greece was from Avars then it will not be present in South Italy, in Grico people,


I believe that in 21 century Europe ignorance is not a crime, thinking even wrong is not a crime, but i wonder what is the limit, the boarder of the 2 above with payed focusing agendas.


I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

zanipolo
31-03-12, 20:52
I suppose it's possible that you're right here, considering that there is some overlap between the "Venetian" type and the "Armenian" type of I2c-B, but I suspect not at the moment, since both are younger than the early "Celtic" branches, and my theory suggests that there ought to be overlap, anyway.



I don't think that they only had one haplogroup, I just think that while I2c-B may fit the pattern you're describing, I2a-Din apparently doesn't. FWIW, I also think the Celts had I2a2b and others.

this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

sparkey
31-03-12, 21:00
in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

Is there any evidence that the Haplogroup I in Kurds is I2a-Din, though? I recall someone here (I think it was Alan?) posting a summary of all of the Kurds that have done deep clade tests or significant STR testing, and the only Haplogroup I Kurds were an I1 individual, an I2a2a-Roots (old I2b1-Roots) individual, and maybe an I2c-B individual, out of 20-something total Kurds tested. None of the academic studies so far tested so much.

zanipolo
31-03-12, 21:00
I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

tribal name should not be taken for granted that it represents a historical race. this is silly
the original Prussians where baltic people and yet the germans took this name when the germanic teutons conquered prussia. Every one thiks today that prussia = germans

Yetos
31-03-12, 21:06
I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity. it is your mind that see everything through currently relevant language groups. When I compare words of different languages, I do not try to prove that e.g. Thracian = Slavic or Celtic = slavic or that Dacian = slavic or that Pelasgian = Slavic...or that Illyrian = Slavic or that Etruscan = Slavic...or that whatever language = Slavic.... I try to identify common words as indication of close or distant relation between tribes due to carrying perhaps similar haplogroups and due to perhaps common part of history with some of populations going through language shifts.....

How many times did I say that languages can change at very fast pace.... where are Celtic languages of central Europe now? how did latin spread from little village to big part of Europe and latin America in known history?
simply, on timescale where genetic is relevant, language groups have little impact as their distribution is rather recent and their history cannot be assumed to be strictly tied to genetics...

we can of course speculate about language issues e.g. about who were original PIE speaking people by comparing theories about spread of PIE language with spreads of haplogroups.......but languages are prone to changes that makes them unreliable marker of nations....

look how we all speak english here... what if EU would become authoritarian centralistic state that would for efficiency reasons impose a single language as official one....in few generations we would all be speaking english and in 1000 years there would be guys like you wondering how did english tribe overtook Europe whose people are clearly of english origin....and those would speculate how all R1b and R1a and I haplogroups and E-V13 is clearly ancient old english tribes...

its not me that is problem, you guys have problem with thinking in narrow categories of language groups that exist now, and with looking from point of interests of a single language group.....

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

I just link genetic with race name preserved in tribal names.... i don't make hard claims about languages...it is your minds caged in current division into language groups who do that extra step and feels their group is jeopardized by what i say...


Regarding Avars, they were too bossy and too cruel, so in the end they were destroyed completely...like Huns... nothing is left from them in Europe...Magyars are a tribe that came later and took over in that time Slav settled Pannonia... genetic of Hungary will not have much to do with either Avars or Huns... you try to link Croats to Avars, ignoring the historical accounts from Byzantium that recorded how Croats were invited to settle Balkan in order to keep borders safe from Avars... why do you keep trying to put slavic people in obscure roles...isn't that indication of you being anti-slavic perhaps due to issue your country and your identity have concerning the name dispute with FYR Macedonia?

I only said about Hrpt which can be Hrvt and in satemization Srbt (k-h ->S)

the rest is up your imagination,
you said about anti-slavic but you do not see the Pan-Slavism in this thread in many posts,

ok keep your agenda,
the think that many do not accept in this forum, is that Y-Dna HG as also Linguistics is a tool for search, not for claim,

and for the info, search how many Slavic languages have the word Pekara, (bread maker-shop) then you will understand more about HG and linguistics

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 21:35
Is there any evidence that the Haplogroup I in Kurds is I2a-Din, though? I recall someone here (I think it was Alan?) posting a summary of all of the Kurds that have done deep clade tests or significant STR testing, and the only Haplogroup I Kurds were an I1 individual, an I2a2a-Roots (old I2b1-Roots) individual, and maybe an I2c-B individual, out of 20-something total Kurds tested. None of the academic studies so far tested so much.
I did not see any evidence it is I2a-Din...at some point in past I read it somewhere and took it for granted.....

searching forum for related posts, i think you were making same mistake...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26619-I2a-origins-in-Kurdistan&p=374841&viewfull=1#post374841 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26619-I2a-origins-in-Kurdistan&p=374841&viewfull=1#post374841)

Maciamo stated that Kurdish I2 is definetively I2a and in fact I2a2 as he remembers..
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26451-Y-DNA-Haplogroups-in-Iraqi-Kurdistan&p=371251&viewfull=1#post371251

it is likely to be some I2a older than i2a-din ....I2a-Din is a bit young to fit as already numerous into sea people scenario (around 1200BC that is 3200 bp)....

that is why i lately speak of I2a and not of I2a-Din when I speak of Kurds....

seems i missed that list you talk about......
but am pretty sure that I have seen on one of the forums some list with haplogroups of several Kurdish people and among them was a Sorani Kurd classified as I2a-Din....
having some I2a-Din and more of the older clade could fit well into time frame of sea peoples...

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 21:40
and for the info, search how many Slavic languages have the word Pekara, (bread maker-shop) then you will understand more about HG and linguistics

i do not understand your point...

Pekara comes from PIE
it is practically the same word as 'bakery'

south Slavs have 'pekara' other Slavs 'pekarna' and 'piekarna' which are same words...

zanipolo
31-03-12, 21:45
I did not see any evidence it is I2a-Din...at some point in past I read it somewhere and took it for granted....

it is likely to mostly be older i2a though....I2a-Din is a bit young to fit as already numerous into sea people scenario (around 1200BC that is 3200 bp)....

that is why i lately speak of I2a and not of I2a-Din when I speak of Kurds....

seems i missed that list you talk about......
but am pretty sure that I have seen on one of the forums some list with haplogroups of several Kurdish people and among them was a Sorani Kurd classified as I2a-Din....
having some I2a-Din and more of the older clade could fit well into time frame of sea peoples...

none in the link i provided on page 341

Gosh
31-03-12, 21:50
High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera

paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...



Do you realy believe in everything you've read in your life?

Even these few words are stupid enough to continue discussion about that.
People who worked on this paper don't understand anything about genetics (yes, I'm sure in that) but they don't understand history at all!!!

Where we can see that R1a-M458 14kyo? Can you show me a few persons from Serbia in public databases with that marker?

You can't but you'll continue with your fairytale. This paper is something the worst in popular genetics together with the latest Croatian paper which will "explain" to some nationalists that Croats are in Dalmatia "for at least 7000 years in continuity". It is much easier to lie than to tell truth.

razor
31-03-12, 21:51
this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

This map is about as accurate as a soccer game in minute 1 or a baseball game in the first half of the first inning (:=)) I see my name on its list but I have no spot on the map and I'm certainly not in Poland. As in many other matters (aDNA included) we have to wait for more testing in Ukraine.

Taranis
31-03-12, 22:12
i do not understand your point...

Pekara comes from PIE
it is practically the same word as 'bakery'

south Slavs have 'pekara' other Slavs 'pekarna' and 'piekarna' which are same words...

You talk about PIE but you have no idea about linguistic methodology and apparently do not want to know anything about that.

Exhibit A:


I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....

Exhibit B:


Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....

Two superficially similar words ~2800 years apart are for "pretty strong indications"?


I speak of continuity of tribal identities through preservation of genetics and tribal names, as 2 key constituents of identity.

Preservation of tribal identities through genetics? I think that classifies as a form of Lamarckism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism).


i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

And of course everybody who disagrees with you is "extremely biased and has a strong anti-slavic agenda".

Let's forget genetics and forget languages for a moment: denying historically documented events (Roman-Marcomannic interaction 1st through 3rd centuries AD) is something else...

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 22:13
actually, just found the list I talked about - Sorani Kurd was I2a2a (old I2b1) not I2a-Din as I thought...

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 22:26
Do you realy believe in everything you've read in your life?

Even these few words are stupid enough to continue discussion about that.
People who worked on this paper don't understand anything about genetics (yes, I'm sure in that) but they don't understand history at all!!!

Where we can see that R1a-M458 14kyo? Can you show me a few persons from Serbia in public databases with that marker?
there are different methodologies to estimate diversity...

those articles were written by people whose job is research in genetics...their papers pass through harsh peer review before they can be published in renown scientific journals...
you did not even read the paper, but you have "opinion"....
it sounds a bit like when a housewife speaks about fixing space ship and of dumb engineers..... or cleaning lady about Einstein's theory and dumb physicists...

how yes no 3
31-03-12, 22:50
You talk about PIE but you have no idea about linguistic methodology and apparently do not want to know anything about that.
Exhibit A:

I never said that R-458 was Slavic speaking when it was dominant on Balkan, nor that tribal names that are in my opinion about race name of I2a like: Serbs/Sarbans/Kurds/Scrodisci/Shedrana/Sardinian/Serdi/Serboi/Sart/Serres/Scirians/Serians
were originally Slavic speaking....
Exhibit B:

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....
Two superficially similar words ~2800 years apart are for "pretty strong indications"?

for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue


as always, you cut out a part of a claim and than massacre it with requiring super precision...

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

furthermore, I have noticed year ago by comparing known Pelasgian areas in ancient Greece with R1a, that Pelasgians seems to correlate with R1a...

finally, Pelasgians and Poljaci both having similar sounding tribal name of same meaning ("field people") in case it is not a coincidence strongly enforces previous indication ..but note that this is not standalone claim.....as it builds upon R1a trace

you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...



Preservation of tribal identities through genetics? I think that classifies as a form of Lamarckism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism).
i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...

perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

on other hand, languages can change rapidly like languages of latin America and of big part of Europe have changed in recent history (recent from point of view of genetic developments timescale not from point of view of individual person)...


And of course everybody who disagrees with you is "extremely biased and has a strong anti-slavic agenda".
not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...

and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......

what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology


Let's forget genetics and forget languages for a moment: denying historically documented events (Roman-Marcomannic interaction 1st through 3rd centuries AD) is something else...

what on earth do you talk about?
about your misinterpretation of what I said...

that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....

let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)

MOESAN
31-03-12, 23:00
this sites states that I2a-Din N is more polish ( well today it is )

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/

just a question of method: these maps show the countries distribution by haplotype - what we need more is the haplotype distribution by country - a lot of the conclusions we try to take out of thses statistics are biased...

zanipolo
31-03-12, 23:41
if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

"which west slavs"? ............. why do they have to be slavic, why where they not , hunnic, thracian, illyrian, celts, germanics etc etc



perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
a population has many genetic Hgs and so tribal identity does not apply


tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
true to a degree


population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
false, the germanic saxon, angels and jutes in england have changed their race


there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....
no chance this applies as time passes.....maybe in the bronze-age, but by Roman times this is lost.



not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...


why am I always left out!?


that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....
you again start your history of europe after the germanic migrations to the balkans and the west ...........you know there was history in the bronze and iron ages as well


let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)
all european languages borrowed words from other languages over time and amended these words into their own. inland based people gather words on sea animals from other languages is an example.

zanipolo
31-03-12, 23:43
just a question of method: these maps show the countries distribution by haplotype - what we need more is the haplotype distribution by country - a lot of the conclusions we try to take out of thses statistics are biased...

no problem....I just presented another site, be it good or bad depends on the individual

Yetos
01-04-12, 02:36
for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue


as always, you cut out a part of a claim and than massacre it with requiring super precision...

if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans

furthermore, I have noticed year ago by comparing known Pelasgian areas in ancient Greece with R1a, that Pelasgians seems to correlate with R1a...

finally, Pelasgians and Poljaci both having similar sounding tribal name of same meaning ("field people") in case it is not a coincidence strongly enforces previous indication ..but note that this is not standalone claim.....as it builds upon R1a trace

you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...



i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...

perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....

on other hand, languages can change rapidly like languages of latin America and of big part of Europe have changed in recent history (recent from point of view of genetic developments timescale not from point of view of individual person)...


not everybody...i was talking about you
e.g. sparkey always points out his arguments like gentleman, you argue like raper... you put yourself in higher worth position... you speak like teacher to stupid kids... no respect...

and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......

what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology



what on earth do you talk about?
about your misinterpretation of what I said...

that Serbs come to Balkan from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt is not even my claim, but from historic document "De administrando imperio" written by Byzantine emperror....

let me repeat again, when I try to figure out this, I do not claim that ancestors of Serbs did speak slavic... which means linguistically one should look into serbian language and see whether there are words that origin from other candidate languages (which is what I tried with Celtic, but it turned out that there were much less shared words than expected)


R1a M-458 exist >10% in Sarendo S Itay, probably is after Slavic devastation and settlement :petrified:
also don't forget to mention that except Serdi, Sherdana, Sardenians, Scirii, Serrians, Serbs, Scordicii, Sardanapalus, Sharpedon, sardeis, sorbones, in Paris, Skudra, skoder Saracenes are the old Slavic population while in Centum Karditsa Karducks Karadanians Kurds

PS do not forget Shaar is after Sherdana but we miss the d
and Kim Kardasyan is the mother of all the above :cool-v:


while the father is Sadam only he forget to put the R so to be Sardam


PS2 and even think that I speak non sense .
I speak with Genetic data like all these population share the R1a which is a 'clear evidence' a 'trade mark' of Slavic population HG R1a

PS3 I wonder if Swedes are sons of Sadam also and they forget the R and their original name is Swerdes :innocent:


BTW I love your method :heart:

I have just prove that Swedish are Serbs and Slavic but they did not know it yet :cool-v:



I wonder were Saracenes Slavic also? :thinking:



sory that is my last post about your method

I am certain that in your next post you surely connect Myceneans with Myseans with Moesians and finaly with Moggolians

I am pretty certain that chinese or Sines come from Mount Sinai and they were semitic origin and they change the m to n like Senitic-Sines-chinese :ashamed2:

how yes no 3
01-04-12, 12:25
R1a M-458 exist >10% in Sarendo S Itay, probably is after Slavic devastation and settlement :petrified:
also don't forget to mention that except Serdi, Sherdana, Sardenians, Scirii, Serrians, Serbs, Scordicii, Sardanapalus, Sharpedon, sardeis, sorbones, in Paris, Skudra, skoder Saracenes are the old Slavic population while in Centum Karditsa Karducks Karadanians Kurds


Iapetoc, you just prove that you didnot understand anything from what I was talking because your mind is formatted to think in categories of modern language groups....

I never told that M-458 was originally slavic, nor that tribal names whose spread clearly correlates with I2a were originally Slavic. It is your mind that tells you that....

Opposite to what you say R1a-M458 in Sarendo south Italy is another indication of what I am claiming - that R1a-M458 is ancient old in Balkans and that it was there before south Slavs.... in same time I say it is that, originally Balkan, R1a-M458 that spread to north to give west Slavs... how difficult is it to understand those things?

All my theories relate tribal names and genetic traces... I do not speak of tribal name as part of
Sarbans/Serbs/Sardi/Serdi/Sherdana/Scordisci/ pattern without first establishing clear relation to I2a...its clear that above are variants of tribal name for a race of I2a people... another branch of this pattern is about Scirians/Serians/Serres/Siraces, but there I have name clash with J2 Syrians/Sumerians....
regarding Swedi and Suebi we might be seeing extension of tribal name pattern to haplogroup I pattern....
and if we add Arabs as J1 and Syrians and Sumerians as J2....
I think this could in ancient times have been even race name for populations carrying IJ haplogroup....
i never said all these tribal names = Serbs... on contrary I said many times that modern Serbs are just a small leaf on a big tree that is related via genetics and name...

in general, I am sure I did find some interesting links... and more important my theories did converge....


on other hand all your theories are just your often weird interpretations of words in other languages via Greek language...and you keep jumping from one theory to another.....

so your post above is more about your posts in general than about my posts... you see this as a struggle about who was before on Balkan - Greeks or Slavic people.... I see it as a history of movement of populations, originally organized in tribes via their races...

btw. Macedonians were not Hellenic people originally..:) area has clearly quite different genetics .. and lets not forget that a Macedonian king had difficulties participating in Olympic Games as it was seen that there is no place there for a foreigner coming from barbarian people... he was admitted only when he showed that his own family, unlike the rest of population, was having hellenic origin... so I do not see why Greece has a problem with people calling their country Macedonia....its not like name was invented now... it is used for centuries for that area...in fact it was used for that area since times of Roman empire... btw. did you ever wonder how come Italy is not molesting Romania for carrying the name of Roman empire?

Taranis
01-04-12, 12:52
for a person who is into languages you should know the meaning of the word "indication"...
indication is not a proof, it is a clue


No, the quintessential question is: can you test it? The point in linguistics, at least when talking distant relationships, is NOT that words sound superficially similar, but that you can prove that a word, if you account for the respective sound laws, is a cognate with a word in another language. You would not recognize real cognates. Let me remind you that:


1) sound laws have no exceptions. they will apply to ALL words in a language


2) if they seemingly have exceptions, these are conditioned by their own set of rules (ie only at the beginning of a word, or only between vowels, etc.).


3) sound laws have no memory


All your supposed "tribal names" were merely based on superficial (read: anything that sounds superficially like the word "Serb") similarities, totally ignoring if it is even viable to change a sound to another. To pick up your own example:


Kurds
Sarbans
Sart
Serbs
Serdi
Serians
Serres
Scirians
Scordisci
Sherdana


According to you "sh" is the same as "s" is the same as "k" is the same as "sk", and "b" is th esame as "d" is the same as "t" is the same as "i" is the same as "Ø” (missing). Also "a" = "e" = "i" = "o" = "u". Even if we completely disregard the fact that these nams are spoken in completely different areas and different times, here is no regularity at work here.


Let's talk about genetics now though...



if R-M458 has highest diversity (indicating paleolithic settlement) in Balkan and has highest frequency in Poland and practically doesnot exist outside of Europe, already that is pretty good indication that population from which west Slavs origin have moved to Poland from Balkans


The assumption that R1a-M458 is Paleolithic is flawed. You're ignoring both the fact R1a-M458 is probably a relatively young subclade of R1a, as well as the structure of R1a as a whole (regretably, Maciamo hasn't made a tree there yet as he did for R1b, which would be helpful in visualizing the situation, but he has things listed here). In any case:


Most R1a anywhere is part of the R1a1a1 (aka R1a-M417) clade, which is in turn dominated by the subclade R1a-Z645. This clade in turn is dominated by two subclades: R1a-Z93 (which is basically the Asian branch of R1a, dominant in India) and R1a-Z283 (the main European branch). Now, the subclade you mentioned (M458) is in turn a subclade of R1a-Z283, meaning it's fairly high up in the "tree", meaning it is almost certainly NOT Paleolithic.



you cannot understand/appreciate my ideas if you focus just on linguistic part... what i suggest is always based on a set of clues pointing in same direction....
its like trying to understand a book by focusing on repeatedly reading a single sentence that is not what you expected...and instead of reading a book arguing about the sentence... but the sentence is such that it is clear only if you read a book...


That's not true. You have your own pre-fabricated direction/goal, and you gather all pieces of evidence that point into that direction and ignore everything else. You way of proceeding here is not much different from creationists or conspiracy theorists on that issue.



i think you think too precise so you are not able to see bigger picture...


perhaps I did not express myself clearly, but i think it was clear what i wanted to say...
a population is defined by its genetics and is carrier of a tribal identity...
tribal identity is associated with a race name/tribal name which is carried by the population.....
population undergoes historic events in which its race does not change but its language may....
there are big chances that haplogroup spread correlates with race name... like J1 with Arabs, O with Chinese people, I1 and I2b with germanic people (Gomer in bible times).....


Well, and I (and others) have told you that this is pure fantasy. There is no tribal identity that miraculously endures millennia regardless of what language people speak, and in my opinion you're entering the realm of esoterics when you claim such a tribal identity is tied with Y-DNA. It also makes you into something of a male chauvinist because, let's remember that only men have Y chromosomes...



and you repeatedly try to put ancestors of Slavic people in Asia before 5th century... which is a theory, and in fact a bad one as R-M458 and I2a-Din show...but you still claim it as an absolute truth and try to exterminate any other possible explanation by calling it having agenda of pan-slavic revisionist fantasies or whatever......


I have never claimed that Slavic peoples were in Asia before the 5th century AD, unless "Eastern Europe" is already "Asia" for you (it certainly isn't for me). Also, as I elaborate above, R1a-M458 (nor I2a-Din) doesn't dispute that in any way.



what if arrival of Slavic people from Asia in 5th century is your pan-Germanic fantasy?
genetics clearly shows it is just fantasy... but you do not accept arguments against your beliefs...against your ideology


But perhaps you are right, and then ancient authors like Strabo, Ptolemy and Cassius Dio were all as biased as I am when they didn't make a single reference of Slavic presence in Central Europe, and for inventing the presence of the Boii and later the Marcomanni in Bohemia...

how yes no 3
01-04-12, 13:10
No, the quintessential question is: can you test it? The point in linguistics, at least when talking distant relationships, is NOT that words sound superficially similar, but that you can prove that a word, if you account for the respective sound laws, is a cognate with a word in another language. You would not recognize real cognates. Let me remind you that:


1) sound laws have no exceptions. they will apply to ALL words in a language

it is not possible to apply sound laws when it is not known what languages are spoken...
but it is possible to observe similar word correlated in other ways - used with same meaning, for same purpose (tribal name), correlating with spread of haplogroups.......
and that is precisely what we have here - set of similar words used as tribal names that continuously in space correlate with spread of a YDNA haplogroup.... which is indication of tribal name or in fact of race name.....
as I explained this may be extended beyond I2a perhaps to race name of IJ people....
taking into account probably haplogroup I1 related race names such as Swabians/Suebi/Swedes...
and J1 Arabs, and J2 Syrians/Sumerians/Aryans

think about probabilities for all this "coincidences"... with so many possible combinations of letters to give words in different languages, random correlation between haplogroup spreads and tribal names is not probable at all, so there must be a link between spread of this name pattern and of carrier population spreading associated Y-DNA haplogroup...

i have repeated many times that modern Serbs would be just a small leaf on such a tree and not the whole tree... what I wanted is to identify larger branch from which they origin..
i2a-Din south points out to central Europe.... De administrando imperio says they came from land they in their language call Boiki that borders Frankia and white Croatia...for a number of reasons this land can be only Bohemia.... it also says it is where they have originally dwellt...(it doesnot say that they were there continiously, but in following 2 occasions: originally and before arrival to Balkan)... only gueses from I2a tribal name pattern are Scirii and Scordisci... Scirii being paired with Hirri/Heruli same way as Serbs with Croats, they lived in area where I2a-Din south exist in lower Vistula south of Baltic and also in Bohemia/Bavaria, and Scordisci were living in area where russian primary chronicle places Danubian Slavs including Serbs and Croats....than again maybe Scordisci and Scirii were same or related... maybe none of them is related to I2a-din in modern Serbs...those are clues... pieces of puzzle that fit or do not fit together... time and more clues will show... before stabbing any idea that doesnot fit in wishful thinking of your langiage group formatted brains, you guys should first try to develop consistent theories of your own....

i do not care about languages...recent history shows languages can change quite fast (e.g. spread of latin derived languages from a little village to whole latin America and big chunk of Europe)..I care about movements of populations...



The assumption that R1a-M458 is Paleolithic is flawed. You're ignoring both the fact R1a-M458 is probably a relatively young subclade of R1a, as well as the structure of R1a as a whole (regretably, Maciamo hasn't made a tree there yet as he did for R1b, which would be helpful in visualizing the situation, but he has things listed here). In any case:

I have given you reference to the paper that estimates age of R1a-M458 in Balkan and rest of Europe...

are you genetic scientist to judge papers published in renown journal? did you read the paper? do you know how to estimate age given the samples?
have you any idea how difficult is it to publish paper in such journal? do you know how strict is peer review procedure?


no, you first heard of haplogroups year and half ago...and do not understand it much better even today...
but you "know" its flawed...
what a "genious"
you sound like a housewife or cleaning lady making hard statement without any reasoning behind it that e.g. Einstein's theories are rubbish...




Well, and I (and others) have told you that this is pure fantasy. There is no tribal identity that miraculously endures millennia regardless of what language people speak, and in my opinion you're entering the realm of esoterics when you claim such a tribal identity is tied with Y-DNA. It also makes you into something of a male chauvinist because, let's remember that only men have Y chromosomes...

its a race name...
that is why it endures...

those are variants of a race name of I2a, maybe of whole haplogroup I, or even IJ people...

Swabians/Swedi/Suebi - I1
Arabs - J1
Syrians/Sumerians/Aryans - J2
(link between Sumerians and Syrians comes from Strabo and J2 is clearly dominant in Syria and in Cappadocia where Strabo finds white Syrians...Aryans settlements around Indus river show clear correlation with J2)





I have never claimed that Slavic peoples were in Asia before the 5th century AD, unless "Eastern Europe" is already "Asia" for you (it certainly isn't for me). Also, as I elaborate above, R1a-M458 (nor I2a-Din) doesn't dispute that in any way.

you did..don't make me search for it..





But perhaps you are right, and then ancient authors like Strabo, Ptolemy and Cassius Dio were all as biased as I am when they didn't make a single reference of Slavic presence in Central Europe, and for inventing the presence of the Boii and later the Marcomanni in Bohemia...
you keep saying this...
but nothing I said is coliding with historic sources...
Slavs is a tribal name of a union... like EU is recent name for union of states...
but same people existed before creation of union...under own names...

if EU was not mentioned before 1990s, it doesnot mean that nations that are now part of EU didnot exist in Europe before 1990s, that they must have been elsewhere e.g. in Asia...

Taranis
01-04-12, 13:19
no, you first heard of haplogroups year and half ago...and do not understand it much better even today...
but you "know" its flawed...
what a "genious"
you sound like a housewife or cleaning lady making hard statement without any reasoning behind it that e.g. Einstein's theories are rubbish...

Well, listen to yourself. You get an infraction now.

Remember this: next time you're insulting somebody on this forum, you're banned.

how yes no 3
01-04-12, 14:31
Well, listen to yourself. You get an infraction now.

Remember this: next time you're insulting somebody on this forum, you're banned.


hey, why did you delete my post explaining everything?

do you understand how unfair is it to argue by deleting arguments other people make....
what kind of person are you?
do you have any morality, any sense of fair play? can you look yourself in mirror?

in short, insult is about putting a person into low worth position, and my comparison was clearly not an insult but about lack of competence of a person not educated in some area of science to criticize work of people educated in that area of science... the work that passed harsh peer review...face it, you are hobbyst, you do not know how to estimate from samples how old is a haplogroup, so you do not have enough competence to state it is flawed..

your ego could see it as an insult if you are kind of person that judges worth by job and gender and think that cleaning ladies and housewives are low worth creatures....

and I gave in that post great summary of my theories on this site, and explained why large set of coincidences is in my viewpoint not a coincidence (as it is not probable), but is instead pointing to deeper causal connection and why i explain it the way I do.......it was easily my best post ever on this site......

I demand my post to be restored.... if you have any sense of fair-play or any morality you will restore it... ..

Gosh
01-04-12, 17:17
there are different methodologies to estimate diversity...

those articles were written by people whose job is research in genetics...their papers pass through harsh peer review before they can be published in renown scientific journals...
you did not even read the paper, but you have "opinion"....
it sounds a bit like when a housewife speaks about fixing space ship and of dumb engineers..... or cleaning lady about Einstein's theory and dumb physicists...

That's their job, I agree but they did that job VERY BAD. They are far away from the truth.
I've read that paper (unfortunately) and I only can say that it is full of lies. The same thing as Mr Primorac work about I2a1 in Croatia.

Yes, I'm a dumb housewife comparing with your "Einstein's theories". The main difference between you and me is that I'm much more serious than you and listen real science. You're enjoying in science fiction, unfortunately.

You know almost nothing about R1a but you're ready to teach all of us how we have to think!
Russian scientist Anatole Klyosov who's "dad" for your "researchers" never talked about 14000 y.o. R1a from Balkans but only 12000 y.o. derived from the works of Mrs Pericic (and never confirmed in another study). We have no other proves that they really exist but it is enough to you to develop your "Einstein's theories".

I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.

Population (R1a) in Serbia is a typical Slavic population from the Carpathian basin (R1a Z280+, Carpathian III with estimated TMRCA on cca 2200 years) . Any other interpretation is just a cheap lie.

how yes no 3
01-04-12, 21:06
I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.
Don't brag with your ignorance...
there is no such a thing as oldness of a single haplotype without comparing it to others. Age is estimated based on diversity of observed haplotypes, roughly speaking its based on number of observed mutations and their positions. There is a mathematical model to do that and those guys have just applied the model to the results of testing. The model used generally in scientific work to estimate age is from what I know not exactly the same as in genealogy that uses somewhat more conservative models as it originally targets to find actual relatives and not to estimate actual age of haplogroup.

their calculation is not good for you, and for some other memebers here, only because it doesnot fit in your wishful thinking.

Yetos
01-04-12, 21:11
btw. Macedonians were not Hellenic people originally..:) area has clearly quite different genetics .. and lets not forget that a Macedonian king had difficulties participating in Olympic Games as it was seen that there is no place there for a foreigner coming from barbarian people... he was admitted only when he showed that his own family, unlike the rest of population, was having hellenic origin... so I do not see why Greece has a problem with people calling their country Macedonia....its not like name was invented now... it is used for centuries for that area...in fact it was used for that area since times of Roman empire... btw. did you ever wonder how come Italy is not molesting Romania for carrying the name of Roman empire?

Although I said last, I can't control my shelf
yes they were a mix,
their primary Land was Massachusetts in America, from there they split,
the ones who went west pass the Arctic Islands in Alaska and setlled in Moggolia
the ones who went East by boat the went to Scotland and from there a Brave man named Mc-Adams manage to unify them again both East and West n Makedonia who took his name. :startled:
there was another part who went south and lost in the Zungles the Maya-donians

You do see this but you do not See thracian word for 'our people' which is Muka
:innocent:

how yes no 3
01-04-12, 21:19
yes they were a mix,
their primary Land was Massachusetts in America, from there they split,
the ones who went west pass the Arctic Islands in Alaska and setlled in Moggolia
the ones who went East by boat the went to Scotland and from there a Brave man named Mc-Adams manage to unify them again both East and West n Makedonia who took his name.
yes, i knew they made a mistake of not turning left at Albuquerque.




You do see this but you do not See thracian word for 'our people' which is Muka
first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

anyway, does it mean that you are suggesting that Macedonians were originally Thracians?

Yetos
01-04-12, 22:57
yes, i knew they made a mistake of not turning left at Albuquerque.



first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

anyway, does it mean that you are suggesting that Macedonians were originally Thracians?

NO COmment

I see you read Duridanov's work page 3
but you did not read another page, why?

search Makedonians old tests, search also the areas, search the exact area of Grekoi (not Hellenes) and search magna grecia you see what I mean,

Besides I do not need any proves more, Pella katadesmos is just fine,

But what can I wait from a man who never read Makedonian History, and Culture,
who thinks that Bria is Thracian word for city ( the 23 words you mention)

so we have an evidence Canta-bria in Spain is Thracian, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/cool-v.gif
as also Kalabria and Umbria in Italy http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png


want more about the 23 words?
word sgar is only Nordic, or icelandic?
well better find the word in English as Sharp
in modern Greek Thracian Idiom (con/polis) as καρφι karphi (engl nail) as σκαρπελο skarpelo (a sharp tool)
ancient Greek εσχαρα (a plex of crossed iron bars)
which remained as Scara to South Slavs ( an iron plate where we cook meat)
maybe Sublaki was surblaki before !!!!!! and was a Sardenian delicacy who learn it from Sharbans when they moved from Swerbian Sherdana
search more
the word Muka is after Duridanov's work which you consider as brilliant but who did not check or read
you say a lot but you do not see the words of Thracian even in Hellenistic or in Church
the word Μυρον myron,
simply
pan-slavism and the era of communism expand through Slavs is over,
new tests are about to be done, and not 3 soldiers to be a sample in a work you know,

wait new genetical data soon,


if you want to open again the Makedonian issue go ahead, there are many Threads about it in this forum,
but better read them first,

My suggestion is before you post something,
Read carefully the thread, the debates, the devil's advocate and the conclusions,

If I2a2 Din is so young so not to be Thracian, then how come is so old to be Sherdana?
explain that first and then I might agree with your method,

if I2a2 Din is so young that is almost the time of Slavic migrations to Balkans
then how can it be so old to exist in ancient minor Asian population like Kurds the same one

your method say that Kurds Sherdana Sharpedon moved to central Europe and return as Serbs and they have the same Genetic I HG,



High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

R1a1a*(xM458) is oldest in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India and is there 14kya old, while in Serbia it is 11kya....

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians)

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....


there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...




what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?




in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians


PS 1
So Pelasgians were IE and R1a Poles and Spoke Slavic language in Balkans
PS 2
So Kurds and Serbs are the same but Spoke another Language,
and I HG maybe is originate in minor Asia?


so Poltuombria one the 23 words you mention is after Poles and is flat in the Mt Aimos Hills !!!!
So Pelsgian who were R1a were Speaking a minor Asian Language which Ancients Identify it with Etruscan,
SO LEMNEAN STEELE IS A SLAVIC (POLISH) SCRIPTURE !!!!!!

so the POLES were the Sea peoples?

So Modern Kurds are Serbs cause they have I2a2 DIN
and Sherdana are also Slavic I2a2 DIN

Really ?
Thracian are not I2a2 DIN cause it is so young, (read Sparkey's post in this Thread)
Then how come Sherdana were I2a2 DIN?

PS3 I wonder did you read the Duridanov's work?


HOW YES NO
PAN -SLAVISM PAN-ALBANISM PAN-HELLENIsM PAN_TURKISM NAZI-ARIAN ERA IS OVER.
I am G HG maybe Pelasgian, yet that did not affect my life, neither my Ideas, neither History, neither Humanity,

Finaly
http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/DUVANLI.jpg
http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/DUVANLI.jpg

5559
Thracian Alphabet

The image of the horseman clarifies the word mezena as meaning ‘a horseman’. The Thracian mezena (mezenai in the text) is almost identical to the name (the epithet) of the Messapian deity of (Iuppiter) Menzana, the “horse deity” to which were sacrificed horses. It also corresponds to the Albanian mes, mezi (‘a stallion’) and the Romainan mhttp://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/ER.jpgnz (‘a stallion’). The latter is Dacian in origin from the IE *mend(i)- ‘a horse’. The Thracian mezena and the Messapian Menzana – from the IE *mendiana mean ‘a horseman’.

the rights of the above is not mine but Georgiev's



.
first time I hear of the word... it is also not listed among 23 thracian words whose meaning is known. so i guess this is another one of your extrapolations of meaning of words based on Greek?

yes it is in my imagination
another prove of your methods and target

muka ‘seed, clan, posterity’ [Iran. muka- in the Osset. mugæ ‘family’, muggag ‘seed, clan’].

not only in my imagination but also in Duridanov's
except if he he also uses extrapolations of meaning like me as you said.

well I might am ignorant of Gennetics or linguistic, but at least I read the posts and the threads,

who knows. maybe your scientific methods in your next post leads us that Marcomani were narcomani Greeks that moved away from Mane area to inhabit Mainz in Germany, right?

sparkey
02-04-12, 00:06
I've put you a question which you didn't answer... can you find (and show) ANY R1a from Serbia which is 14000 old? I know that you can't. But you'll tell me that "some scientists found them". Be so nice and show us that results if you want to discuss normally. Not in a form of a propaganda paper but in a simple form of a haplotype.

Population (R1a) in Serbia is a typical Slavic population from the Carpathian basin (R1a Z280+, Carpathian III with estimated TMRCA on cca 2200 years) . Any other interpretation is just a cheap lie.

Actually, I've become very interested lately about the age of R1a in different parts of Eastern Europe. Originally, I had assumed that Haplogroup I was the only surviving Paleolithic/Mesolithic European haplogroup anywhere, but after closer inspection of Haplogroup I, it doesn't seem to be so old in places like Southeastern Europe, as we've yet to find any old Haplogroup I subclades in the area. So what is so old there? I know Maciamo has presented a compelling theory of Mesolithic E1b, but what about others? Perhaps R1a? Or at least Mesolithic R1a elsewhere in Eastern Europe, like at the Dnieper?

zanipolo
02-04-12, 09:26
Actually, I've become very interested lately about the age of R1a in different parts of Eastern Europe. Originally, I had assumed that Haplogroup I was the only surviving Paleolithic/Mesolithic European haplogroup anywhere, but after closer inspection of Haplogroup I, it doesn't seem to be so old in places like Southeastern Europe, as we've yet to find any old Haplogroup I subclades in the area. So what is so old there? I know Maciamo has presented a compelling theory of Mesolithic E1b, but what about others? Perhaps R1a? Or at least Mesolithic R1a elsewhere in Eastern Europe, like at the Dnieper?

The amazing situation in "proper" illyria ( Dalmatia) is that according to maciano's maps, there is no,
I2b
E1b
T
J1
J2
R1b
and little R1a

So if I2a-din is so young , then what did the Illyrians have from south of the danube to southern dalmatia in the bronze and early iron age?
Was there an issue that the population was very minor and any decent migratory numbers pushed the local population percentage below double digits?

how yes no 3
02-04-12, 13:48
NO COmment

I see you read Duridanov's work page 3
but you did not read another page, why?

i do not even know who is Duridanov...




If I2a2 Din is so young so not to be Thracian, then how come is so old to be Sherdana?
explain that first and then I might agree with your method,


how do you think haplogroups come to existence? out of thin air?
there is a parent clade in I2a tree and significant mutations on the haplotype of parent clade are classified as new branch....

there is probably no I2a-Din or only little I2a-Din in Kurds, but an older clade.... also current estimation of the timing for I2a-Din can easily be wrong as it is based on limited number of samples that family tree dna has access to... (most of samples in familytreedna database come from west europe, east Europe samples are rare, Asia samples only symbolically present)




if I2a2 Din is so young that is almost the time of Slavic migrations to Balkans
then how can it be so old to exist in ancient minor Asian population like Kurds the same one
its not that young...1000 years is not almost...


i
your method say that Kurds Sherdana Sharpedon moved to central Europe and return as Serbs and they have the same Genetic I HG,
no, I2a has high diversity area in Europe with many branches typical only for Europe, which means gene flow of I2a probably went other way around - from central Europe to Asia (of course 10000s year before haplogroup I or IJ came to Europe from Asia)....scenario I suggest is that I2a was spreading around Danube and Black sea and at some point crossed to Asia minor via Black sea and Caucasus and than continued to spread towards east and south, which was observed by Egyptians as "sea people" - military and settlement wave described as conspiracy of several tribes of northerners, who conquered first northeast part of Asia minor than south part of Asia minor than Syria...and started attacking Egypt...where their name resulted in place name Serbonian bog...

my point is that Kurds origin from those Sherdana that crossed to Asia, while modern Serbs origin from those I2a who stayed in Europe probably living somewhere around Danube... and judging by I2a-Din south they origin from those I2a people who lived in central Europe in upper or mid Danube...which does corresponds with De administrando Imperio and russian primary chronicle...



PS 1
So Pelasgians were IE and R1a Poles and Spoke Slavic language in Balkans
i never said that....
what I said is that R1a-M458 typical for west Slavs has spread from Balkan to north...
and that I think that this R1a-M458 was also related to Pelasgi...

what language they spoke is impossible to tell...
but west Slavs origin genetically largely from that population....





PS 2
So Kurds and Serbs are the same but Spoke another Language,
and I HG maybe is originate in minor Asia?
understand that timeline of haplogroups and timeline of languages are on different timescales...
we are talking about split that happened at least 3200 years ago (time of sea peoples conquest) , and probabbly much much earlier as it takes time for I2a from central Europe to advance to Asia...
Kurds and Serbs do have some customs in common - from relation to wolf, via circle dances with holding hands (btw. similar dance is in Spain called Sardana).... and Slavic languages are much closer to iranian and kurdish than e.g. Greek or germanic languages are...



so the POLES were the Sea peoples?
I believe Pelast were same as Pelasgians and R1a....
its not correct to say Poles...essentially, Pelasgians spread in 2 directions: to north where they eventually became Poles, and to east with "sea peoples" invasion where they became Pelast....
again, this is not about languages as split happened at least 3200 years ago, this is about haplogroups and origin of people.....


So Modern Kurds are Serbs cause they have I2a2 DIN
and Sherdana are also Slavic I2a2 DIN
I2a-Din is today found mostly among Slavic people...
regarding the young age of I2a-Din, Kurds probably do not have it.... they probably have parent branch of I2a...
what language I2a spoke is hard to say....
no clues about that....
what I claim is that name of nation Serb is derived from a name of I2a race... which is reflected in finding similar tribal names everywhere in correlation with I2a spreads.....
modern Serbs are small part of it...

Yetos
02-04-12, 14:34
i do not even know who is Duridanov...




how do you think haplogroups come to existence? out of thin air?
there is a parent clade in I2a tree and significant mutations on the haplotype of parent clade are classified as new branch....

there is probably no I2a-Din or only little I2a-Din in Kurds, but an older clade.... also current estimation of the timing for I2a-Din can easily be wrong as it is based on limited number of samples that family tree dna has access to... (most of samples in familytreedna database come from west europe, east Europe samples are rare, Asia samples only symbolically present)




its not that young...1000 years is not almost...


no, I2a has high diversity area in Europe with many branches typical only for Europe, which means gene flow of I2a probably went other way around - from central Europe to Asia (of course 10000s year before haplogroup I or IJ came to Europe from Asia)....scenario I suggest is that I2a was spreading around Danube and Black sea and at some point crossed to Asia minor via Black sea and Caucasus and than continued to spread towards east and south, which was observed by Egyptians as "sea people" - military and settlement wave described as conspiracy of several tribes of northerners, who conquered first northeast part of Asia minor than south part of Asia minor than Syria...and started attacking Egypt...where their name resulted in place name Serbonian bog...

my point is that Kurds origin from those Sherdana that crossed to Asia, while modern Serbs origin from those I2a who stayed in Europe probably living somewhere around Danube... and judging by I2a-Din south they origin from those I2a people who lived in central Europe in upper or mid Danube...which does corresponds with De administrando Imperio and russian primary chronicle...



i never said that....
what I said is that R1a-M458 typical for west Slavs has spread from Balkan to north...
and that I think that this R1a-M458 was also related to Pelasgi...

what language they spoke is impossible to tell...
but west Slavs origin genetically largely from that population....





understand that timeline of haplogroups and timeline of languages are on different timescales...
we are talking about split that happened at least 3200 years ago (time of sea peoples conquest) , and probabbly much much earlier as it takes time for I2a from central Europe to advance to Asia...
Kurds and Serbs do have some customs in common - from relation to wolf, via circle dances with holding hands (btw. similar dance is in Spain called Sardana).... and Slavic languages are much closer to iranian and kurdish than e.g. Greek or germanic languages are...



I believe Pelast were same as Pelasgians and R1a....
its not correct to say Poles...essentially, Pelasgians spread in 2 directions: to north where they eventually became Poles, and to east with "sea peoples" invasion where they became Pelast....
again, this is not about languages as split happened at least 3200 years ago, this is about haplogroups and origin of people.....


I2a-Din is today found mostly among Slavic people...
regarding the young age of I2a-Din, Kurds probably do not have it.... they probably have parent branch of I2a...
what language I2a spoke is hard to say....
no clues about that....
what I claim is that name of nation Serb is derived from a name of I2a race... which is reflected in finding similar tribal names everywhere in correlation with I2a spreads.....
modern Serbs are small part of it...

when you check back and understand what you are writing,
then I will remind you the I2a2 Disles not DIN,
are they Serbs too?


You did not know Duridanov as you say, but you accepted the 23 words of his work, but you said as imaginary another word of his own work,

Accept, your method and posts are nothing more than a target.


PS in cold war times you could earn a lot with these posts by the propaganda ministers.
you live in wrong era.

how yes no 3
02-04-12, 20:53
when you check back and understand what you are writing,
then I will remind you the I2a2 Disles not DIN,
are they Serbs too?you still do not understand....
Sherdana and Kurds are not Serbs in modern meaning of the word... what I claim is that Kurds origin from Sherdana "sea people" directly, while I2a ancestors of modern Serbs were perhaps same tribe with those people maybe 3200-5000 years ago...(taking into account Sherdana spread from Black sea towards Egypt 3200 years before present, and that it takes some time for I2a wave to spread to the point of entering Asia ) which is quite long ago...

what I say is that tribal name of modern Serbs origin from race name for I2a people.... and that that race name is reflected in Sherdana, Sardinia, Kurd, Scordisci, Sarbans, Sart, Serbs....




You did not know Duridanov as you say, but you accepted the 23 words of his work, but you said as imaginary another word of his own work,

Accept, your method and posts are nothing more than a target.

i didnot care who published 23 words, for me it was good enough that every word comes with reference to ancient text in which meaning of the word is given....
PS in cold war times you could earn a lot with these posts by the propaganda ministers.
you live in wrong era.
the way you interpret my texts, maybe you still live in some kind of cold war era....

Yetos
02-04-12, 22:34
you still do not understand....
Sherdana and Kurds are not Serbs in modern meaning of the word... what I claim is that Kurds origin from Sherdana "sea people" directly, while I2a ancestors of modern Serbs were perhaps same tribe with those people maybe 3200-5000 years ago...(taking into account Sherdana spread from Black sea towards Egypt 3200 years before present, and that it takes some time for I2a wave to spread to the point of entering Asia ) which is quite long ago...

what I say is that tribal name of modern Serbs origin from race name for I2a people.... and that that race name is reflected in Sherdana, Sardinia, Kurd, Scordisci, Sarbans, Sart, Serbs....i didnot care who published 23 words, for me it was good enough that every word comes with reference to ancient text in which meaning of the word is given....
the way you interpret my texts, maybe you still live in some kind of cold war era....


And I ask you I2a Isles people are they Serbs too?

did you check these words? where else exist? and how common they are? or possible mistakes?
at least did you read them and see their Alphabet?


in a previous text you said about these words as extrapolation meaning, now you say that they are good,


wherever the wind blows,
just lead me to target,

zanipolo
03-04-12, 09:48
link below seems to be what Y&N is referring to, although a bit old it has scientific links and plausible migration of people into the balkans

http://www.reocities.com/CapitolHill/lobby/7681/origins_intro_1.html

Question; what did I1b Eu7 become to be represented now?

Gosh
03-04-12, 13:14
Don't brag with your ignorance...
there is no such a thing as oldness of a single haplotype without comparing it to others. Age is estimated based on diversity of observed haplotypes, roughly speaking its based on number of observed mutations and their positions. There is a mathematical model to do that and those guys have just applied the model to the results of testing. The model used generally in scientific work to estimate age is from what I know not exactly the same as in genealogy that uses somewhat more conservative models as it originally targets to find actual relatives and not to estimate actual age of haplogroup.

their calculation is not good for you, and for some other memebers here, only because it doesnot fit in your wishful thinking.

1. The only candidate for the eldest R1a iin Europe are those with DYS392=13. How many serbs you have with this marker? Even your "scientists" which you like to cite didn't show any of them in their work.

According to Klyosov, there's a 12kyo R1a in Balkans founded in some countries there (derived from M Pericic work and that's the only source for that statement). The next one are R1a from Bukovina with TMRCA cca 5,5kyo. After that there's a lot of subgroups with estimated TMRCA from 5kyo to less.

You can't speak about " number of observed mutations and their positions" if you have a main haplogroup which TMRCA is estimated on 2200 years! To be more concise, you can... BUT forget fictional 14000 years in that case.

Their calculations aren't good for themselves, not for me. They subscribed that work and they will be ashamed, not me. What will you say about "calculations" of some "scientists" which they published not so long ago and which claimet that TMRCA of R1b in western Europe is 9+ kyo????

Gosh
03-04-12, 13:27
Actually, I've become very interested lately about the age of R1a in different parts of Eastern Europe. Originally, I had assumed that Haplogroup I was the only surviving Paleolithic/Mesolithic European haplogroup anywhere, but after closer inspection of Haplogroup I, it doesn't seem to be so old in places like Southeastern Europe, as we've yet to find any old Haplogroup I subclades in the area. So what is so old there? I know Maciamo has presented a compelling theory of Mesolithic E1b, but what about others? Perhaps R1a? Or at least Mesolithic R1a elsewhere in Eastern Europe, like at the Dnieper?

As I know, there's a very interesting archeological place in Serbia named Vinca. Not so far away of Vinca is another arch. place where we have remains of Cro-Magnon population. In the eldest layers of Vincha culture we also have Cro-Magnons which were substituted by "Mediterranian race" (newer layers). It was a period of farming explosion in Europe. By my own opinion, that people belonged to the J2a not to E1b.

Something terrible happened in Europe of that time and that's the reason why hg-I practically disappeared.

Taranis
03-04-12, 13:31
what I claim is that Kurds origin from Sherdana "sea people" directly

This is making no sense. Kurds speak an Indo-Iranic language, specifically a West-Iranic language. It's related with Persian, Pashtoo, Oesstian and more distantly, with the Indic (Indo-Aryan) languages (Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, etc.) and the Nuristani languages (the latter representing a separate branch of the Indo-Iranic languages). It's very clear that the Kurds originally came from the East. I must admit that Haplogroup I amongst the Kurds is a riveting problem, but given the origin of the Kurds, this Haplogroup cannot be originally Kurdish (my guess is that R1a-Z93 is instead).

It should be added, it is not wholly clear if, and to what degree, the various Sea Peoples were Indo-Europeans at all. If the Sherdana were the same as the (Paleo-) Sardinians, they were a non-Indo-European people(s).

sparkey
03-04-12, 17:25
Question; what did I1b Eu7 become to be represented now?

"I1b" is very old terminology for I2, and "Eu7" is very old terminology for Haplogroup I as a whole.

Alan
03-04-12, 18:49
This is making no sense. Kurds speak an Indo-Iranic language, specifically a West-Iranic language. It's related with Persian, Pashtoo, Oesstian and more distantly, with the Indic (Indo-Aryan) languages (Sanskrit, Hindi, Urdu, etc.) and the Nuristani languages (the latter representing a separate branch of the Indo-Iranic languages). It's very clear that the Kurds originally came from the East. I must admit that Haplogroup I amongst the Kurds is a riveting problem, but given the origin of the Kurds, this Haplogroup cannot be originally Kurdish (my guess is that R1a-Z93 is instead).

It should be added, it is not wholly clear if, and to what degree, the various Sea Peoples were Indo-Europeans at all. If the Sherdana were the same as the (Paleo-) Sardinians, they were a non-Indo-European people(s).

I have to add Kurds are one of the few populations which use to have both the -z93 and more typical Slavic mutation of R1a! There is a Kurd from Turkey who is R1a but not -z93 ( I dont know the exact name anymore) and another Turk with a Kurdish paternal Grandfather has as well R1a more typical for Slavic populations. Kurds seem to have both the typical Iranic as well Slavic R1a. There are two explanations for that. Either its because the area is crossroad between Slavic and Iranic world or the Haplogroup R1a developed somewhere in Eastern Anatolia-West Iran

MOESAN
03-04-12, 23:14
I have to add Kurds are one of the few populations which use to have both the -z93 and more typical Slavic mutation of R1a! There is a Kurd from Turkey who is R1a but not -z93 ( I dont know the exact name anymore) and another Turk with a Kurdish paternal Grandfather has as well R1a more typical for Slavic populations. Kurds seem to have both the typical Iranic as well Slavic R1a. There are two explanations for that. Either its because the area is crossroad between Slavic and Iranic world or the Haplogroup R1a developed somewhere in Eastern Anatolia-West Iran

I agree it is possible...
an alternative hypothesis:
one of the Y-R1a, the 'iranic' one, close I suppose to the indian-pakistan one, is a local form without any link with I-Eans, and the only I-Ean one is the slavic one that was shared by the old satem half-nomads of Siberia that colonized iranic lands as did their cousins Scythes, Sarmatians etc...
just a bet

mihaitzateo
04-04-12, 16:25
An interesting thing told about thracians by Herodotus:
That they considered shamefull to till the land and they considered war as most noble activity,that they liked to plunder.
I do not think thracians disapeared,by they turned to christian orthodoxy and they calmed down with the wars.
Take for example first constitution used in Serbia,Romania Bulgaria and Russia,that was based on Roman Empire laws and was given in 1219 by Saint Sava a serbian :

I am not pan-slavist,as someone here was telling,I am just telling that south slavs (those with lots I2A din south) are thracians,because there are some words coming from same root which is not latin in south slavic languages,romanian and/or greek and/or albanian and/or bulgarian .For romanian and south slavic there are even more words.In romanian a lot from agricultural terms are pretty similar with bulgarian words.And Sântana de Mureș–Chernyakhov culture- shows that these people were practicing agriculture before 5th century.
I do not deny that most romanian words are taken from latin (and I did not included here the words taken from french,which are another 22% of the romanian words).
Take for example the word used for cat:
romanian matza (in romanian is written MẤȚĂ but I typed the Ț as tz to helped you with pronunciation) - serbo-croatian macika - albanian macja - bulgarian kotka with romanian cognate cotoi (this word is used for calling a male cat,a tomcat).
To help pronounce,I will write cotoi as kotoi (c and k are pronounced same in romanians as south slavs are pronouncing k).
or sparrow:
romanian vrabie - serbo-croatian vrabac - bulgarian vrabche
beans:
romanian fasole - albanian fasule - greek fasolia
meadow:
romanian pajiste - serbo-croatian livada - -bulgarian livada - greek livadi - albanian livadh
However,the word livada is used in romanian for orchard which is not that far as meaning from meadow.
the cereal you call hop (humulus) in english (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humulus)
romanian hamei - serbo-croatian hmelj - bulgarian khmel
(i from romanian is pronounced same as serbo-croatian j).
The word for hen:
romanian gaina (from latin,galina) - serbo-croatian kokoška - bulgarian kokoshka - greek kóta
(š is same with sh or romanian letter Ș)
However,in romanian for cock,the male of the hen you are using the word COCÓȘ which if you want to use south-slavic writting is kokoš (sure is known by romanian scientists that this come from some slavic language).
Sure there are other words also,gave only a few examples here.

Also is very likely that some greeks had also I2A din south since I think the thracian ilyrians and greeks were living quite mixed.
Take for example the name of the mountains from Romania,Carpathians,that come from Karpata which in actual macedonian language means rock.
Also,the agricultural terms in romanian in bulgarians are in lots of cases same.
So it seems there were also some kind of peacefull thracians,that did not considered shamefull to practice agriculture.
As for I2A in Iran,is known that Alexander Macedon had some thracian allies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Macedon#Thracian_cavalry
And if some of the macedonian greeks fighting for Alexander Macedon were bearing also I2A there could be an explanation for I2A in Iran.

Yetos
04-04-12, 17:25
An interesting thing told about thracians by Herodotus:
That they considered shamefull to till the land and they considered war as most noble activity,that they liked to plunder.
I do not think thracians disapeared,by they turned to christian orthodoxy and they calmed down with the wars.
Take for example first constitution used in Serbia,Romania Bulgaria and Russia,that was based on Roman Empire laws and was given in 1219 by Saint Sava a serbian :

I am not pan-slavist,as someone here was telling,I am just telling that south slavs (those with lots I2A din south) are thracians,because there are some words coming from same root which is not latin in south slavic languages,romanian and/or greek and/or albanian and/or bulgarian .For romanian and south slavic there are even more words.In romanian a lot from agricultural terms are pretty similar with bulgarian words.And Sântana de Mureș–Chernyakhov culture- shows that these people were practicing agriculture before 5th century.
I do not deny that most romanian words are taken from latin (and I did not included here the words taken from french,which are another 22% of the romanian words).
Take for example the word used for cat:
romanian matza (in romanian is written MẤȚĂ but I typed the Ț as tz to helped you with pronunciation) - serbo-croatian macika - albanian macja - bulgarian kotka with romanian cognate cotoi (this word is used for calling a male cat,a tomcat).
To help pronounce,I will write cotoi as kotoi (c and k are pronounced same in romanians as south slavs are pronouncing k).
or sparrow:
romanian vrabie - serbo-croatian vrabac - bulgarian vrabche
beans:
romanian fasole - albanian fasule - greek fasolia
meadow:
romanian pajiste - serbo-croatian livada - -bulgarian livada - greek livadi - albanian livadh
However,the word livada is used in romanian for orchard which is not that far as meaning from meadow.
the cereal you call hop (humulus) in english (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humulus)
romanian hamei - serbo-croatian hmelj - bulgarian khmel
(i from romanian is pronounced same as serbo-croatian j).
The word for hen:
romanian gaina (from latin,galina) - serbo-croatian kokoška - bulgarian kokoshka - greek kóta
(š is same with sh or romanian letter Ș)
However,in romanian for cock,the male of the hen you are using the word COCÓȘ which if you want to use south-slavic writting is kokoš (sure is known by romanian scientists that this come from some slavic language).
Sure there are other words also,gave only a few examples here.

Also is very likely that some greeks had also I2A din south since I think the thracian ilyrians and greeks were living quite mixed.
Take for example the name of the mountains from Romania,Carpathians,that come from Karpata which in actual macedonian language means rock.
Also,the agricultural terms in romanian in bulgarians are in lots of cases same.
So it seems there were also some kind of peacefull thracians,that did not considered shamefull to practice agriculture.
As for I2A in Iran,is known that Alexander Macedon had some thracian allies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Macedon#Thracian_cavalry
And if some of the macedonian greeks fighting for Alexander Macedon were bearing also I2A there could be an explanation for I2A in Iran.

and I repeat Thracian language is not a Slavic language,
and Thracians had Alphabet similar Greek and not Cyrilic,
and there is enough vocabulary that shows connections with Germanic languages,
and many of these words exist in modern Greek
the next step maybe is to claim that Greeks are Slavs also?


among Thrakologists even today there is an argue if they were Anatolian origin or North Eurasian,

it is a IE family of languages isotones to Greek specially late Hellenistic and Con/polis.
we talk about a language that is still vivid among modern Europeans, Baltic Germans and Scandinavians Balkanic Slavs Greeks but is assimilated according each one

that is why Duridanov's Sgar exist as καρφι and σκαρπελο ιν Γρεεκ, as Sharp in English etc,
when we Speak about Thracian we probably speak about one of the older Languages in Europe, and possible mother of many modern.


about Alexander and I Hg that is my question to Sparkey in a different way,
read my posts #287 #302 and Sparkey's answers #301 #303

I still can't find which is older the I2a2 DIn or the other forms of I HG that exists in Greek in Kurds Cyprus etc,

BTW the most fanatic as Thracians be I2a was me,
but seems I was wrong about timing era,

mihaitzateo
05-04-12, 01:07
A very strange thing I saw is that in Thessaloniki according to some test is about 25% R1A1.
How is that possibile?

Other weird results of Y DNA from Greece:
http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF
Look at the greeks from Nea Nikomedeia (G1) they got 21% R1a1 and almost 20% R1B.

Do not really think in Balkans you can associate some Y DNA with a certain ethnicity.
So I think I2a din south is from old thracians,which seems to be more than one people,old greeks, dacians and ilyrians (since I can not explain the percentage of I2A in albanians ).There were clans in albanians so if some foreigner would have come here,I doubt he could breed a lot to have in such percentage I2A din south in albanians.I also think that because how uniform albanians are looking this proves that I2A din south in albanians is very old there.
Could not be brought by some migrations (I2A-din south) since is present in greek islands and also at pretty significant percentage in Lerna which is very south of Greece.
A lot of old greeks were also liking war a lot,they calmed down because they became christian orthodox not because they disapeared.
No ideea why Ken Nordvedt says that about I2A din south,I doubt any migrators ever got to Crete or to Lerna.
Because the Byzantine Empire fall in 1453 and that is not that far away,till than South Greece was defended really well.And after was defended by turks and I2A-din south is not from turks for sure.

Yetos
05-04-12, 04:43
A very strange thing I saw is that in Thessaloniki according to some test is about 25% R1A1.
How is that possibile?

Other weird results of Y DNA from Greece:
http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF
Look at the greeks from Nea Nikomedeia (G1) they got 21% R1a1 and almost 20% R1B.

Do not really think in Balkans you can associate some Y DNA with a certain ethnicity.
So I think I2a din south is from old thracians,which seems to be more than one people,old greeks, dacians and ilyrians (since I can not explain the percentage of I2A in albanians ).There were clans in albanians so if some foreigner would have come here,I doubt he could breed a lot to have in such percentage I2A din south in albanians.I also think that because how uniform albanians are looking this proves that I2A din south in albanians is very old there.
Could not be brought by some migrations (I2A-din south) since is present in greek islands and also at pretty significant percentage in Lerna which is very south of Greece.
A lot of old greeks were also liking war a lot,they calmed down because they became christian orthodox not because they disapeared.
No ideea why Ken Nordvedt says that about I2A din south,I doubt any migrators ever got to Crete or to Lerna.
Because the Byzantine Empire fall in 1453 and that is not that far away,till than South Greece was defended really well.And after was defended by turks and I2A-din south is not from turks for sure.

about Christianity, it is the holocaust of Greeks that is why today North Greece has different DNA that South,

if you read History Athens was Burned and massacre 2 times by Christians Byzantines or Romans (from my mind now pass Belissarius and Ioustinianus)


on the other hand South Greece has significant R1b ( L20 I think which is Anatolian and explain a Lot about the Greek language and Grammar as part of Greco-Aryan)


the case of R1a is not in Thessaloniki district but in South parts of Upper Mekedonia, and West North parts of Thessaly and East mountain Epirus and spreads down to Locris and from there to south Italy, which is road that is known as Dorian migration, - return of Temenides.

I was expected to be the same of R1a that is in Kurds or Scandinavians but it seems to be the same old Central Europe from Baltic to Aegean R1a Z458,
yet it existance in South Italy surely makes it Dorian, but not its existace in Central North Europe,


The gennetic of Greece and generally of Aegean was not Clear I believe from ancient times,
Yet I believe that Greeks moved to East after Alexander, West after Romans and been reduced, or even eliminated to some areas like Athens, where I expect G Hg to be higher,

personally to me it seems like Myceneans were minor Asians newcomers than the Grekoi of Tanagraia the elder Greeks of Dodona,

now when we Speak about Makedonians, a good observation is the Pieri Thracians(Orpheus) and the Bryges Thracians, (Gordium case etc) the connection of Makedonians with some Thracian tribes is obvious, but yet the R1a in Greece seems to be in areas that no Thracians are mentioned, but Dorians,

how yes no 3
05-04-12, 22:35
that is why Duridanov's Sgar exist as καρφι and σκαρπελο ιν Γρεεκ, as Sharp in English etc,
when we Speak about Thracian we probably speak about one of the older Languages in Europe, and possible mother of many modern.
let's assume sgar is thracian word
I do not see how is germanic sharp closer to greek written thracian "sgar" from Slavic oštar

sg is easily greek transcription of "št"
sgar -> (o)štar

note that like Slavic Thracian also doesnot have 'p' in the end as related Germanic and Greek words...
which, taken together with other words, of course still doesnot mean Thracian was Slavic language but probably closer to it than to Germanic or greek...which makes sense as it is known that it was satem language....

btw. 'št' does sound more sharp than 'sg'

regarding R1a in greece, yfamilytreedna has only 5 samples: 1 has german name, 1 bulgarian, 1 turkish...
from remaining 3, 2 have R1a that is shared with Kurdish area in Turkey and Armenia and not with europe, indicating some old spread...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1aY-Haplogroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

but familytreedna has in general way too little samples that are not from west Europe to conclude anything about east Europe or Asia in general...

R1a in Greece may be related to Dorians....as it is in general ellevated in those areas.... I think Slavs came as dominantly I2a people as this is key distinguishing factor of south Slavs from other Balkan populations

i think I2a was present in north of Thracia...because I have concluded that I2a has spread along Danube from ancient times....but I do not believe it was dominant in all Thracians.....

how yes no 3
05-04-12, 23:22
so you think it ties with 'the great bronze age migrations"?
yes..i think it is related to bronze age collapse in whole east Mediterranean, Greece included

conquest of sea peoples was described as conspiracy of Northerners from all lands,,, Peleset and Tjekker warriors are depicted with ox-carts (this could not have been by ships in my opinion) and woman and children... so we speak of massive settlement wave comming from north, which must have left imprint in genetics of the conquered area...

very likely those nations had divided the conquered area into interest zones...

look how R1a, G, Q and N spread far from their native areas - from Black sea and Caucasus all the way to Egypt.. G is though probably somewhat earlier spread to west of Asia minor...

key people among northerners were R1a I think.. Q was perhaps among R1a people indicating that conquest originally came from north shores of Black sea - Ukraine area... and spread of N could have come before as it doesnot really correlate with Q and R1a...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-N.gif





from all these Northerners, I think that only Sherdana were I2a (they settled Kurdish areas from north of Black sea probably with large R1a and small Q admixture) people, that they were backbone of attack and that they have made bridge between Black sea and Mediteranean and settled in Kurdish areas

I think Sherdana (without R1a admixture) also were present from before in west and southwest parts of Asia minor (that branch would have been Willusa and they got in that conquest after fall of Arzawa an extension of the sea coast into what was west part of Arzawa)

this was 3200 years before present.... which is in times older than I2a-Din
at the time I2a was probably dominant around Danube and around Black sea which is from where I think they spread to Kurdish areas......they were sea people as Black sea is sea as well...

this is questionable but at that time they could perhaps still have been in language and culture considered the same tribe as people who settled Sardinia and west Mediteranean (probably much earlier and perhaps from west part of Asia minor)..



http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

zanipolo
05-04-12, 23:26
let's assume sgar is thracian word
I do not see how is germanic sharp closer to greek written thracian "sgar" from Slavic oštar

sg is easily greek transcription of "št"
sgar -> (o)štar

note that like Slavic Thracian also doesnot have 'p' in the end as related Germanic and Greek words...
which, taken together with other words, of course still doesnot mean Thracian was Slavic language but probably closer to it than to Germanic or greek...which makes sense as it is known that it was satem language....

btw. 'št' does sound more sharp than 'sg'

regarding R1a in greece, yfamilytreedna has only 5 samples: 1 has german name, 1 bulgarian, 1 turkish...
from remaining 3, 2 have R1a that is shared with Kurdish area in Turkey and Armenia and not with europe, indicating some old spread...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1aY-Haplogroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

but familytreedna has in general way too little samples that are not from west Europe to conclude anything about east Europe or Asia in general...

R1a in Greece may be related to Dorians....as it is in general ellevated in those areas.... I think Slavs came as dominantly I2a people as this is key distinguishing factor of south Slavs from other Balkan populations

i think I2a was present in north of Thracia...because I have concluded that I2a has spread along Danube from ancient times....but I do not believe it was dominant in all Thracians.....

why not say there is nearly no R1a in the balkans
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

according to the people FTDNA tested so far

Claus
06-04-12, 12:22
Haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric (or new I2a1b1a Dinaric) associated with the Germanic Goths

Hi everyone,

in his recent spread map Dr. Ken Nordtvedt himself locates the start of the I2a2a Dinarics,
from now on, namley around the middle course of the Vistula. Wich is modern day Pomerania.
Estimated age: about 2500 years ago.

Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago:
I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than
2000 years ago.

It is well testified, that 2000 years ago, the Vistula area were still part of Germania. And the Wielbark culture, associated with the Goths, appeared also in the Vistula area about the same time period like the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric.
The Wielbark culture also had a sudden expansion out of the Vistula, not much more than 2000 years ago.
Spreading out into the same directions like the I2a2a Dinarics in Ken Nordtvedts new spread map.
Both show a huge sudden expansion into the southeast of Europe and the Balkan. I do not want to over-interpret things. But this can not be a coincidence anymore. It is undoubtedly, and way too obvious now what was going on here.


The movments of the slavic people, on the other hand, appear centuries later. Moving slowly from the
southeast to the northwest of Europe. (According to historian Peter Heather).
The Goths moved the other way around, exactly the same way like the I2a2a Dinarics in reference to the new spread map from Dr. Ken Nordtvedt. (From the northwest to the southeast and the Balkan area.)
Concerning I2a2a Dinaric, no ethnics of people, in that number, at that time and particular place,
could come into question, other than the Germanics/Goths. This is the only plausible explanation.
How hard you may try to twist it. You always end up with the same conclusion. You can certainly rule out the Slavs.
The Goths as well as the I2a2a Dinarics, presenting obviously the same estimated age, demonstrating both a huge sudden expansion at the same time period and pointing into the same directions in the southeast of Europe.
I can not see anything slavic in this group, last not least because of the very close relationship between I2a2a Dinarics and the I2a2a Disles on the British isles.
At this point, let us not forget the close relationship between I2a and I2b in general.
Basically you can say, that pretty much all I2a2a Dinaric members in todays eastern Europe are culturally slavic people!
But the oddity about it is, they display ethnically Gothic/Germanic roots. Most of recent published maps about the migration of Germanic tribes, show the movment of the Goths and how they left their traces mainly in eastern Europe.
Most of the scientific up-to-date maps show also, that the Goths did not come from Scandinavia. That was a long time legende from Jordanes.
And we should not mistake Germanic with Germans in case of the Goths. The Germanic Goths are not ancestors of todays german people. The Goths left their DNA mainly in eastern Europe as we can clearly retrace. And very little in Germany.
That counts for I2a2a Dinaric north as well as Dinaric souths.
Most people, until now, are still strongly convinced that haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric must be of slavic origin, because of it�s high presence in eastern Europe and the Balkan areas. Wich seemed to be the logical conclusion, in the first point of view.
But this is deffinately not longer tenable.
Peter Heather the modern day historian and expert of the Goths wrote something very interesting in this connection in his last published book (Empires and Barbarians) concerning the slavic expansion:
The Slavs came primary from the southeast and moved slowly sometimes even step by step to the west. But not all Germanic settlements were left when the Slavs moved into the northwest in the 6th century. There were still many farmers and familys in their Germanic homelands. The slavic people took over and the Germanics, have been assimilated by the arrivng slavic population. And the slavic language became the dominat one in these areas.
(The Crimea seemed to be an exception. There was a gothic dialect spoken until the 17th century.)
This absorption or assimilation-process happend amazingly peaceful. At least, at the begin of the slavic expansion.
Without these Germanic settlers, the slavic empire could have never reached the size as it is, in that short period of time, says Heather.


The Goths did not just come with an conquering army to eastern Europe. They came with their entire tribe. Thousends and thousends of woman and children, farmers and warriors spread all across eastern Europe and the Balkan.


They marched off to Belarus, conquer and settle in Moldavia and Romania (Dacia). Sacking Greece (Athens, Sparta) and even
Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete were targets of their attacks. Battles in Turkey (Adrianople). Occupation of Albania 489-535.
Also Settlements in western Hungary (Pannonia). 255 The Goths invade Macedonia. Taking over Moesia (Bulgaria) later known as the Moesian Goths. Ulfilias made the Gothic translation of the Bible for them. Raids in Belgrade, just to name a few well testyfied operations in the east. Bosnia was under the control of Theodoric the Great and his Ostrogothic Kingdom between 490-535. Dr. G. Rus, professor at the University of Liubljana, was taking detailed studys of Croatian and Bosnian origins. Professor Rus had proved that there were two large Gothic migrations into Bosnia and Croatia (Dalmatia).
That�s why we still see most of I2a2a Dinarics in eastern Europe and the Balkan area today. Of course, in western areas as well,
like italy (The sack of Rome, The Battle of Mons Lactarius near Naples, Ravenna the Ostogothic kingdom).
And Austria and Bavaria. In Austria (Hemmaberg) they recently discovered the biggest Ostrogothic cemetery (more than 400 graves) ever found.
But many I2a2a Dinaric members, are from Pomerania and the Ukraine. It is not surprising. Pomerania was the homeland of the Goths and the Ukraine their biggest settlement after the great migration. On the other hand, a great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain, they were already strongly mixed up.
That�s one of the reasons you see only a few I2a2a Dinarics in Spain, so far. In Spain the Goths rule over a huge area but provide only a small Gothic leadership, with their capital in Toledo. Wich was completely wiped out by the arabian conquest in the 8th century.
The Goths had certainly more haplogroups then just I2a2a Dinaric, but this one seems to displays one of their dominat ones.
So far, this haplogroup is the only comprehensible one. The only one striking so clear, because of the young estimated age.
But even if, I2a2a Dinaric was way older than the estimations, It would not really effect the basic picture we have here right now.
After all, we can face enough evidence for a very obvious connection between the Germanics/Goths and the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric north as well as south.

MOESAN
06-04-12, 13:53
answer to Claus

I am sure of nothing yet but I have no big confidence in huge population migrating over huge territories and leaving high levels of DNA even if some exceptions could be found... and Y-I2a2 (now: I2a1b?) DIN do not seam to me bearing a lot of nordic-like phenotypes - sure Y-I1 bears more and for this fact I believe the bulk of these two kinds of HGs even if genetically close on the Y, was separated for a long time - I maintain my first feeling: I1 South of the Baltic Sea, with contacts with Y-R1b-U106 in West and with N1 in East opposed to I2a1b-DIN (N & S) between Central Europe and ALL the Carpathian region, as a previous source - if Goths carried some I2, (why not?) it is not to say I2 was their most heavy HG at all... it is giving too much weight to this moving people in the making of populations of parts of Europe that suffered a lot of occupations, colonizations, coming back and so on...
I feel that Y-I2a1b has taken part in more than one culture and language from the Chalcolithic period to the slavicization of the High (Dark?) Middle Ages - its part in Western Europe is very very light...

MOESAN
06-04-12, 14:16
to keep on, if we agree with you, the eastern Germany and the Poland regions was the nest of Y-I2a1b (or I have understood nothing): in my mind, at the sunrise of History I saw better these lands occupied by a lot of Y-R1a (western) of previous 'Corded' nature or Battle Axes cultures, more or less, that found before them some Y-I1 and maybe less Y-R-U106 and why not in east some Y-N1...- this former population augmented latter by other R1a of slavic culture - in the meanwhile some other cultures as the Tumuli of Poland and their (maybe) descendants of Urnfields culture that gave way to the Lusacian facies can have send some other populations from South-central and North-West-Central Europe but they did not take the "power" (neither cultural nor demic) over this whole area (East Germany and Poland): Poland has not a lot of Y-I2a1b and a part of them is SURELY of recent slavic period "origine" - the other I2 came perhaps with this movements of the period between Unetice and Lusacian culture - If I do not mistake, Goths first records are from very later than these late events? How could they carry a majority of Y-I2a1?

sparkey
06-04-12, 17:34
in his recent spread map Dr. Ken Nordtvedt himself locates the start of the I2a2a Dinarics,
from now on, namley around the middle course of the Vistula. Wich is modern day Pomerania.
Estimated age: about 2500 years ago.

I think you're misusing Nordtvedt's map here. It's entirely schematic, and doesn't serve as a geographic cline analysis in the same way that Verenich's analysis did. Also, even if we take his schematic as more than what it is, you're confusing the "start" (the interclade TMRCA with I2a-Disles) with the TMRCA. Pomerania is certainly within range for the location of the I2a-Din "start," but not the MRCA location. And it's the TMRCA that's about 2500 YBP, not the "start"... that's about 6000 YBP.

Pomerania does not have the highest diversity of I2a-Din, Ukraine probably does.

Most of the rest of your analysis crumbles in light of this. Obviously, the Goths didn't come from Ukraine, so they match the diversity pattern poorly. Also, your explaination for why other places the Goths settled have no I2a-Din at all is unsatisfactory, not to mention the other places that East Germanic peoples settled in general.

For a better correlation to the Goths, look at Eastern European I1 (which I admit is surprisingly frequent in some areas).


I can not see anything slavic in this group, last not least because of the very close relationship between I2a2a Dinarics and the I2a2a Disles on the British isles.

"Close relationship"=dating to the end of the Neolithic? Why would we expect the Slavs to be so old?


At this point, let us not forget the close relationship between I2a and I2b in general.

21,000 YBP? The Solutrean and related cultures? Or do you just mean that populations tend to carry both? Because the frequency of different I2 subclades varies drastically in different European populations.

mihaitzateo
07-04-12, 00:31
let's assume sgar is thracian word
I do not see how is germanic sharp closer to greek written thracian "sgar" from Slavic oštar

sg is easily greek transcription of "št"
sgar -> (o)štar

note that like Slavic Thracian also doesnot have 'p' in the end as related Germanic and Greek words...
which, taken together with other words, of course still doesnot mean Thracian was Slavic language but probably closer to it than to Germanic or greek...which makes sense as it is known that it was satem language....

btw. 'št' does sound more sharp than 'sg'

regarding R1a in greece, yfamilytreedna has only 5 samples: 1 has german name, 1 bulgarian, 1 turkish...
from remaining 3, 2 have R1a that is shared with Kurdish area in Turkey and Armenia and not with europe, indicating some old spread...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1aY-Haplogroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

but familytreedna has in general way too little samples that are not from west Europe to conclude anything about east Europe or Asia in general...

R1a in Greece may be related to Dorians....as it is in general ellevated in those areas.... I think Slavs came as dominantly I2a people as this is key distinguishing factor of south Slavs from other Balkan populations

i think I2a was present in north of Thracia...because I have concluded that I2a has spread along Danube from ancient times....but I do not believe it was dominant in all Thracians.....


Now if you read a little history you will see that in Latium it can be found also a good percentage of I2A.
No ideea what type it is.But if it is I2A-din south is clearly that is from colonists brought from Balkans.
Most present Y DNA in Campania in Italy is J2 and in Latium (central Italy) is also about 25% J2 and this could be one of the sources of the significant percentages of J2 in South Romania and Serbia.I am not really sure if continental greeks had a significant percentage of J2,before Roman Empire conquered them.
Croats came after serbs (they came from north Carphatians,goths are not mountain dwelers) and they are very low on J2,bosniacs think are same with besi and not goths and since they were mountain dwelers lesser latin colonists went there.
I have based what is told above on the following pdf,page 72:
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf
No ideea how accurate are the datas from there,looked on family tree DNA for Campania and indeed there is a significant percentage of J (22 are J from 69 so about 30% from which from which 20 are j2) but not over 50% how is told in that pdf cited above.
Sure some older population of Italy/latins got some R1B clades also,since in Sardigna you can find above 20% R1B and this can be only from Roman Empire colonists.
(no ideea might be also from Spain,who knows,I do not know the history of Sardigna too well;whatever are other various proofs of presence of some R1B clades in latins do not really think R1B is linked only with germanics and celts).

The sonority of dacian kings names is similar with romanian sonority (Decebal is typical romanian name) while the sonority of the names of goths kings is ending in ic like Atanaric,Alaric Teodoric etc.
Beside the Bible translated by Ulfila still exists and gothic language was a germanic language why in romanian there are almost no words taken from gothic?
In serbo-croatian might be few common words I have no ideea about this.

pipinnacanus
07-04-12, 01:34
There is less STR variation in I1 than in most other haplogroup clades, such as I2. That's a fact. TMRCA calculations are performed based on STR variation, informed by subclade modals. Hence, everyone (Nordtvedt, Robb, Klyosov...) who has looked at current samples of it concludes that it's young in terms of TMRCA.

("my sources are all hobbyists from Rootsweb-DNA") Thats exactly what I thought.

Population STR/Hg diversity (which was your original 'Ken-told-me' Citation) can be irrelevant due to population die off, tribal migrations, and variances that cannot be reproduced without having all the facts. Thus, having a modern diversity of Hg in Denmark within modern Hg results, does not prove or disprove anything, even if it is factual..

It is itself easily skewed by migrational factors, plagues, wars, migrations. The fall back simplistic argument about young age within the entire I1 Hg is also irrelevant since the age timelines anyone is talking about are all beyond the tribal populations that we could in any way recognize. If I1 is 2,500 or 4,000 or 8,000 years old it makes little difference since all are older than the time frames we are discussing. You seem to fall onto this as desperation or to change the initial case you made, yet it is no firmer ground for you.


Thats an interesting assault on Nordtvedt's character. But attacking him doesn't really invalidate any points that I make. Not to mention that his STR clusters have generally been accurate, and when they haven't been (such as being unable to separate all the "I1-AS" members), it's been due to convergence in young clades like I1, which is unavoidable. That doesn't change the quality of his TMRCA calculations or diversity analysis.

If it seems harsh, then its probably because the saying goes like this - 'the truth hurts'.
If the truth was fun, everyone would tell the truth.
All your nonsense come from a message board cruiser who promises thing he cant possibly know, and tell things that no one can confirm other than his figures that he deduce. This is called deception.
I1 is a element of the Ugric balto-slavs. Ken fabricated promises that all come from his math magic that tell his followers what they want a promise of.
In the real world, his promises cannot be double-blind tested they can only be a article of FAITH.
Science is not the church, not faith. The Germanic populations according to Ken were primarily I1, yet in all the ancient DNA of regions which have major germanic introgression, NO I1.

You change argument like clothing, to avoid this reality. You started this with claims that I1 is always seemingly germanic, using Ken as your arguments shield, and as this crumbled you start retreating and admit that some I1 is Finnic-Ugric.

I1 began as a non-germanic Hg and is not part of the continental germanic tribes until late in the historical period.


You're wrong. Some clades with no ancient European samples: J2, I2a1*, I2a1b, I2a2a, I2b, I2c, T, Q, L, J1 (unless that "F*" was really J1)...

This is probably the most ridiculous and desperate argument that I may have ever seen.

I said varieties of all European Hg HAVE been found in at least one ancient sample.

You begin to list Semite Y-Hg, ASIAN-MONGOLOID Y-Hg, sub-SNP categories of I2.. which is nonsense. The asian and semite are not indigenous european, and the fact that not every FTdna recognized variant of I2 is in a ancient sample does not change the fact that many ancient Y-dna samples ARE I2.

I1 is a major modern Hg, and is not present in the european Hg on the continent in any ancient samples. Since you cannot affect that you make a nonsense argument to deflect.


There simply haven't been that many ancient DNA tests yet. Which one do you think should have resulted in I1 if Nordtvedt is right? The Urnfield samples? I wouldn't expect it there. The Corded Ware samples? I wouldn't expect it there. The Treilles samples? I wouldn't expect it there. Avellaner? Ötzi? What? Until you answer that, I'm done arguing with you about the implications of ancient samples.

I would not expect I1 anyplace except in the Central Scandinavian Pennisula, in a ancient sample. Which is why there arent any.


I'm asking it as a challenge, and you're not answering it satisfactorally. The point is that I1-Z58 is common between North Germans and the English, but much less common in Scandinavia. Meanwhile, I1-L22 is very common in Scandinavia and in some other places we might expect it, like Mann, but it's relatively uncommon in North Germans and the English as a whole. That pattern is consistent with an I1-Z58-heavy population shared between the North Germans and the English, but not the Scandinavians.

You are really in no position to challenge anyone since you already admitted you core hypothesis is wrong and that Finn I1 is not 'germanic'.
You are following a simplistic logic of a linear thinking simple person, and attempting to build a case for a necessity that I1 in England has to come from angles or saxons, despite the fact the Hg is not provably part of the source population.

While there are a dozen ways for your scenario (that I do not lend any agreement is actually correct btw) to be explained, the most logical would be that the population likely to leave central scandinavia and go to Germany as a tribal population, would also be the more adventurous to go on a similar voyage to the british isles as they have already shown a cultural proclivity to wander.
Secondly, there are differential impacts over time that enlarge one population or regional gene pool in a disparate manner to its SNP neighbors over time or conversely deplete it. Conflating the modern Hg/SNP distribution as being symbolic of what existed in that place 1500 years earlier is more often wrong than it is right, and its what got the Ken acolytes spouting the proclamations about I1 being THE germanic Hg in the first place. While modern Hg distro is a really bad indicator of ancient populations,....

leaning on SNP differentials within modern distros is literally insane.



:rolleyes2: What do you suppose my desire is? I'm not even I1.

I dont read minds or care. As guess, I think you want to have something to say, are interested in Hg I due to your own results and feel "because Ken said so" is good enough for you.

I do not find Ken to be even remotely credible beyond modern STR counting and tallying of results gleaned from FTDNA tables.
He makes un-serious and nonsensical leaps into pronouncements about ancient or historical genetics that are baseless. Unless you are quoting his STR tallies from databases, or the SNP data that he did not originate but only repeats.. he is in no way a valid or trustworthy source.

mihaitzateo
07-04-12, 02:30
A very strange thing that greek language have in common with serbo-croatian,bulgarian and macedonian language and no other indo-european language have this:
the presence and usage of aorist mode for verbs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorist
I think this is a clear inheritance from thracian language.
Ok is present also in french language,but there is from another source,think is old proto-indo-european.

How can you explain that first constitution that was given in Serbia in 1219 was based on Roman law and this constitution was used also in Romania and in Bulgaria and in Rusia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakonopravilo

How it can be explained that serbian and bulgarian kings are calling themselves Tzar/Tsar which comes from latin Cezar while ancient romanians where calling Constantinopole Tzarigrad?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar


Did you noticed that are words in serbo-croatian very closed with latin,that are in common use as the word for mouse - latin mus serbo-croatian miš sure are others also.
From which most strange is how you call in romanian tata,serbo-croatian tata and bulgarian tate (seems bashta is most used in bulgarian) which is common with latin - tata italian language do not have this word anymore!
Since this is a word very often used.
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#la|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#ro|en|tata
http://translate.google.ro/?hl=ro&tab=wT#hr|en|tata


Eyes,another word very used,have in serbo-croatian oči,romanian ochi bulgarian очи (ochi written in latin alphabet) latin oculus and ...italian occhi so almost same word in romanian,italian and bulgarian serbo-croatian (forgot to add pronounciation for romanian and italian is same bulgarian rather same with serbo-croatian,you do not hear the h pronounced in serbo-croatian and bulgarian).
On another thread here (that with albanian language) was told about a common word from old romanian serbo-croatian and sardignian and sardignian is very close to latin also.

sparkey
07-04-12, 07:36
("my sources are all hobbyists from Rootsweb-DNA") Thats exactly what I thought.

Anatole Klyosov is not a "hobbyist," for one. And I'm not interested in arguments over personal character, I'm interested in quality analyses. I have my doubts about Robb's techniques, but Nordtvedt and Klyosov have made convincing arguments in favor of their STR dating techniques. Although I don't think I could ever convince you of that.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary of what I had originally said, by the way? That I1 is relatively young in terms of TMRCA. You may be the only person I've discussed I1 with who disagrees with that simple premise.


Population STR/Hg diversity (which was your original 'Ken-told-me' Citation) can be irrelevant due to population die off, tribal migrations, and variances that cannot be reproduced without having all the facts. Thus, having a modern diversity of Hg in Denmark within modern Hg results, does not prove or disprove anything, even if it is factual..

I agree with this, actually, and I would think that you'd know that if you've read more of what I've had to say on the subject. It's a piece of evidence, not the whole picture.


The fall back simplistic argument about young age within the entire I1 Hg is also irrelevant since the age timelines anyone is talking about are all beyond the tribal populations that we could in any way recognize. If I1 is 2,500 or 4,000 or 8,000 years old it makes little difference since all are older than the time frames we are discussing. You seem to fall onto this as desperation or to change the initial case you made, yet it is no firmer ground for you.

That's why we have to do subclade analyses, which I have, and you haven't.

...skip some junk about how much you don't like Ken Nordtvedt and how you don't understand that I'm using more than just what he says in my analysis...


You started this with claims that I1 is always seemingly germanic, using Ken as your arguments shield, and as this crumbled you start retreating and admit that some I1 is Finnic-Ugric.

What are you talking about? I'm the one who doesn't think any of I1 is Finno-Ugric. I just admit that it's still a possibility, and have from the beginning. I've begun to think that there's pretty good evidence of a tiny Celtic subclade, but other than that, I still haven't figured any to be certainly non-Germanic. I don't make all these certainty claims you attribute to me.

...skip your theory that doesn't fit the data and your rather unkind words toward me...


I said varieties of all European Hg HAVE been found in at least one ancient sample.

You begin to list Semite Y-Hg, ASIAN-MONGOLOID Y-Hg, sub-SNP categories of I2.. which is nonsense. The asian and semite are not indigenous european, and the fact that not every FTdna recognized variant of I2 is in a ancient sample does not change the fact that many ancient Y-dna samples ARE I2.

You're saying that all of J2 and J1 are Semite or Asian-Mongoloid? You're definitely in the minority there. And the largest I2 subclade, I2a-Din, is among those that have not been found. Of course, we expect that, based on its apparent age, and the samples that have been tested so far. The same goes for I1.


I would not expect I1 anyplace except in the Central Scandinavian Pennisula, in a ancient sample. Which is why there arent any.

Just admit you've lost this point, because you can't site a study which, given my theory is correct, we would expect an I1 result.

...skip your nonsense theory, since I've already explained why it doesn't fit the data...


leaning on SNP differentials within modern distros is literally insane.

Uh... wow. I don't really know how to respond to this, because you don't back it up with anything. I1-L22 populations don't spread I1-Z58. There isn't any evidence that Scandinavia has ever had I1-Z58 on the same scale as I1-L22. You theory requires this evidence to have it be plausible. I don't know why you don't understand this.

Taranis
08-04-12, 21:27
(I've moved all the various offtopic discussions in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27411-(OFFTOPIC-from-I2a-Din-on-the-Balkans)&p=394144#post394144) to this thread)

mihaitzateo
15-04-12, 23:31
Sorry for threating people here in a previous message to sue them and sorry for suspecting people here on evil thoughts toward romanians.

I got a weird way to understand history,sure is only because of me.

Templar
17-04-12, 11:19
What's strange is that I2a1b2-Isles's closest cousin, I2a1b1-Dinaric, is only really found among the Slavic populations of Eastern Europe, centered in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Both are the descendants of Cro-Magnon. There is very little slavic ancestry in the Dinaric Alps. People in Croatian Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Northern Montenegro, and South-Western Serbia look completely different from Slavic populations. The skin tone, skull shape, and other physical features are very different. Slavs usually have wide faces, large cheekbones, light hair and skin, relatively short bodies, short arms and legs, and small noses: essentially the original Indo-European features. Dinaric and other Cro-Magnon descendants have long faces (but also somewhat wide compared to Mediterranean neolithic farmer people), long legs, great height (highest in Europe, and perhaps the world if u don't include certain small isolated tribes in Eastern Africa), olive skin, dark hair and eyes, thick bones, wide shoulders, fast development of muscles, and probably above average testosterone levels.

LeBrok
17-04-12, 17:04
Both are the descendants of Cro-Magnon. There is very little slavic ancestry in the Dinaric Alps. People in Croatian Dalmatia, Herzegovina, Northern Montenegro, and South-Western Serbia look completely different from Slavic populations. The skin tone, skull shape, and other physical features are very different. Slavs usually have wide faces, large cheekbones, light hair and skin, relatively short bodies, short arms and legs, and small noses: essentially the original Indo-European features. Dinaric and other Cro-Magnon descendants have long faces (but also somewhat wide compared to Mediterranean neolithic farmer people), long legs, great height (highest in Europe, and perhaps the world if u don't include certain small isolated tribes in Eastern Africa), olive skin, dark hair and eyes, thick bones, wide shoulders, fast development of muscles, and probably above average testosterone levels.
Common Slavs culture comes from 5th century at the time of their expansion. Are you sure that at this time they didn't already include groups of two, or more, different physical characteristics?

Templar
17-04-12, 19:14
Common Slavs culture comes from 5th century at the time of their expansion. Are you sure that at this time they didn't already include groups of two, or more, different physical characteristics?

They probably did, BUT most Slavs that migrated to the Balkans came from modern day Poland. Polish people today are one of the most (if not THE most) Slavic-looking people. Poles also have the highest rate of R1a, which is in most cases correlated with Slavic migrations. Of course not ALL R1a clades are slavic, but the vast majority found in Poland and the Balkans are of "Slavic" origins.

If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

sparkey
17-04-12, 19:53
Both are the descendants of Cro-Magnon. There is very little slavic ancestry in the Dinaric Alps.

It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs in the context of the Balkans.


...and probably above average testosterone levels.

Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25816-Male-fertility-and-sperm-count-influnced-by-Y-chromosome-haplogroups), etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.


If the Balkan Slavs were overwhelmingly Slavic, more of their haplogroups (other than R1a) would be present in their ancestral tribal lands in Southern Poland.

I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland), and in fact Southern Poland is around where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there. There aren't many other frequent haplogroups in Poland, just some I1 (probably mostly a late introduction, especially in Southern Poland) and R1b (probably a mixed late introduction with similar old types that you see in Eastern Europe.. although I haven't studied it closely).

Templar
17-04-12, 20:19
It's possible for I2a-Din to be both descended from Cro-Magnon and largely spread by Slavs

I agree, but most of it was probably native.


Is there any quality evidence for this? I don't know of any direct haplogroup vs. testosterone level study that has been performed, but based on the few relevant studies (sperm count (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25816-Male-fertility-and-sperm-count-influnced-by-Y-chromosome-haplogroups), etc.) it doesn't seem likely that Haplogroup I means more testosterone.

Not the haplogroup, but the people who usually have a high frequency of it, aka descendants of Paleolithic Europeans. I am guessing the high testosterone thing based on the fact that haplogroup I populations usually have more masculine features: tallness, high bone density, over-representation in most sports, high forehead, relatively large noses, etc.


I2a-Din is somewhat frequent in Southern Poland (~9% in Poland as a whole, and it's more frequent in Southern Poland)

Could be a back migration of the now mixed Slav-Dinarics, visiting "their cousins" :D


where I2a-Din-S reaches peak diversity, indicating that it launched from there

Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

sparkey
17-04-12, 22:38
I agree, but most of it was probably native.

No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans. It turns out that Cro-Magnon descendants have gone on to be parts of lots of different ethnicities! Even ones with apparently Asian linguistic roots, and non-Cro-Magnon heritage mixed in.


Are you sure of this? If this is true, it pretty much destroys my theories. But even if true, how could it possibly be possible? A huge amount of I2a nomads surrounded by overwhelming masses of R1as. I get that they were both mixed populations, but why would one be immensely different from the other 2?

It was in Verenich's analysis, which may be archived somewhere. Anyway, I imagine genetic drift occurring on a significant scale to explain the pattern... that is, Slavs could have been a majority R1a/minority I2a-Din to begin with (in fact I find this likely), and when they expanded southward, drift within their population enhanced their I2a-Din at the expense of their R1a. The relationship with autosomal DNA and phenotypes is probably at least as complicated.

Templar
17-04-12, 23:11
No no, I mean that it is all descended from Cro-Magnon, as well as being largely spread by Slavs in the Balkans

Haha I know, I meant it was "native" as in already in Balkans before the Slavic migrations.

If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

sparkey
17-04-12, 23:28
If the I2a clades brought by slavs are different from the ones already in the Balkans, then can't we use that to make a rough estimate of what % of the I2a was there before the migrations and what % after.

We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map). It seems to all be I2a-Din.

zanipolo
18-04-12, 10:06
We can't because we haven't found any surely native ones yet (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map). It seems to all be I2a-Din.

would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Aemilius_Paullus_Macedonicus

can we get I2a only from Northern "yugoslav" lands?

sparkey
18-04-12, 17:23
would a butchering of 150,000 people in an area make a Haplotype difference considering populations in the balkans was not that great in the ancient times.....granted the area in question was Epirus ( modern albania and part of montenegro) , but did the E1b replace I2a

It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

zanipolo
19-04-12, 10:31
It would probably make a difference in total frequency, yes, but I don't think that we can conclude, based on that, that there must have been ancient I2a in the Balkans. There may have been, there just isn't evidence for it yet, and such a "butchering" doesn't count, either.

IMHO the Northern Balkans seems to have had both E1b and I2a expansions, from different directions. I suspect that something like J2 was the most frequent subclade there at one time.

It makes me wonder that due to the very high % of E1b in this area which was the scene of this void of 150,000 people, that E1b was a migratory people after the Roman general Paulus did his deed.

Eldritch
19-04-12, 16:04
I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

Gosh
19-04-12, 23:43
I2a2 was born as Paleolithic haplogroup in Today Ukraine/Moldova and later it expanded in Balkans with Slavic migrations since they incorporated this haplogroup.

I adore such a kind of comments... Someone says something without any proof and disappear.

If you prove something, it would be nace to explain that with the data. This is recommended for all members here, not only for you.

mihaitzateo
24-04-12, 06:27
If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=An%20external%20fil e%20that%20holds%20a%20picture%2C%20illustration%2 C%20etc.%0AObject%20name%20is%20ejhg2008249f2.jpg% 20Object%20name%20is%20ejhg2008249f2.jpg&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

zanipolo
24-04-12, 09:00
If this study is good:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=An%20external%20fil e%20that%20holds%20a%20picture%2C%20illustration%2 C%20etc.%0AObject%20name%20is%20ejhg2008249f2.jpg% 20Object%20name%20is%20ejhg2008249f2.jpg&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg
Or the reduced version of the link above:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/figure/fig2/
You need to magnify it and wait a little,if you want to see the results.
That it is about 9.4% I2-M423 in north-east italians.The document is written in an older notation,but from what I understand I2-Din south is from I2-M423.Now I2-M423 is called I2a1b and I2-din south is called I2a1b1a.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29
No ideea if anyone made deeper testing to see if that I2-M423 from North-east Italy is I2-din south also.
Did slavs ever got there in such numbers?
Because is possibile to be there from colonists brought from Balkans + Romania/Dacia.Or maybe some ancient people from Roman Empire were bearing also I2-M423.

your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

mihaitzateo
24-04-12, 16:00
your last link in regards to north-east italians refers to Trento ( austrian people in majority)
below is a link from your last link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

zanipolo
24-04-12, 21:58
If in that test and in the link you gave is said they are north-east italians I think they are italians,I mean they were choosed with italian family names.

The historic and current scenario in that area is that it has always been about 55% austrian ( tyrolese) and the rest Italian.

maybe the tyrolese are neither germanic nor italian, but part of the old Raetian people....I am unsure. But these 55% "tyrolese" are noted in the Italian population as Italians from after WW. There are also Ladin people to be counted in there as well.
These people do not have "italian" surnames, ......besides whats an italian surname, ?....... My father's neighbours in northeast italy had surnames of Marzon, Martin, Bon, Pelligrin, Pilot, da Ros, Rosin, all families that where there when his grandfather was alive

mihaitzateo
25-04-12, 03:06
What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26701-Haplogroup-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

sparkey
25-04-12, 18:21
What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA):
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26701-Haplogroup-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

I wouldn't talk about the Celts and Gauls when talking about when I2a-Disles and I2a-Din branched... that event surely occurred before they existed. The TMRCA of I2a1b1 (Disles and Din together) is about 6000 YBP... Neolithic.

Between the two, I2a-Din is the greater geographic outlier (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) within I2a.

MOESAN
25-04-12, 23:54
What I do not understand about I2-din south is how is possibile that in Great Britain is a clade very close related to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA): (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%29:)
I2a1b1* low frequency in Great Britain (aka I2a Disles)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26701-Haplogroup-I-in-Ireland
Now there is a very strange link between celts/gauls and Balkans and Romania (is certains some celts/gauls passed over here also- no one knows how much they influenced DNA,way of life,folklore and so on ).
Could I2A disles be brought in Great Britain with people taken from Balkans + Romania,in case I2a-din south is from continuity?
Sure to suppose this you need to supose in that time when celts were here I2-a din south (I2a1b1a*) was not yet branched from I2a1b1 which is I2a Disles.
You can suppose what is reversed also,that celts came from Great Britain to Balkans and Romania and they brought I2a1b1 here from which I2a1b1a* - I2-din south branched.

I find it very hard thinking Celts could have brought seldom Y-I2a1-DIN or an ancestor of it into Balkans an then take advantage of a baby boom in Balkans (all these suppositions about the iron Age -!
it could be the contrary and yet I don't think so - I believe all this kinds of Y-I2a1 was either before Celts arrived in Occident or arrived with Celts having incorporated someones, not after La Tène expansion but before - without another proof I think still that I2a1b was born somewhere between Moravia and Ukraine (I can(t tell more for the moment) and that the position of its first bearers on a way of passage give it someadventage AND at the Neolithic introduction into Balkans and into further northern regions AND at the Metals Ages - I think still into some Beakers...
and as a lot on this topic I exclude a too early cristallization or expansion in the Dinaric Alps that was almost empty at the Paleolithic...
good night all of yours

mihaitzateo
28-04-12, 15:50
The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

MOESAN
29-04-12, 00:44
The presence of I2a1b1 in UK at low percentages is weird,since you can not link that with vikings raiding there.
If this I2a1b1 would have been of native population there,how come it remained only in so low percentages?
Maybe some celts that passed over Balkans and Romania took some people of I2a1b1 with them and this is how I2A disles got in Great Britain.
No one knows for sure the time when I2a1b1a* branched from I2a1b1.

The strange thing is that there are cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,I am not refering to those forced cognates written here by how_yes_or_no but to more serious cognates found by scientists.
Some scientists from institute of thracology from Bulgaria said there are about 178 cognates between south slavic and celtic languages,which atests that celts lived sometime together with south slavs.
I also found this document:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov
Some of the cognates here seems forced,but some are not.
There are few cognates between romanian and celtic languages also,like bou used to called the male of the cow which is identical to the celtic word for cow.
There is also R-L21 in Romania ,they found R-L21 at current romanian president as Y DNA.
There are arheological evidences linked with celts in Romania also,in Balkans also.

it's the firts time I heard of a survey showing or trying to show cognates linking celtic and slavic languages: we have to be very cautious here because "cognates" can be only some old borrowings or very common old indo-european terms: I have in mind the discussion about terms like 'brjeg' in slavic, shown by someones as the proof of a community of languages between Serbs and Celts... sure there are a lot of I-E cognates: what is interesting is to find someones shared only by celtic and south slavic... - I 'll try to read this survey... (thanks for the link)
Perhaps Taranis will have something to say?

mihaitzateo
29-04-12, 04:40
Look what Jordanes is saying,but I do not know how accurate it is:
"Both writing in the mid-6th century, Jordanes and Procopius provide the first indisputable reference to the Slav ethonym, in the form Sclavenoi. Jordanes writes that their land stretched from the town of Noviodunum, to the river Dniester, then northward to the Vistula river. He adds that the Sclavenoi, Antae, and Veneti were but one people."
But they are refering to venethi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
So it would make a lot of sense,since russians from there are called "white russians" (belarus) croats are called "white croats".


And this could easily explain the resemblances between scandinavian languages and south slavic languages,refering to how the definite article is used in romanian (guess in romanian is influence from south slavic),bulgarian,serbo-croatian and scandinavian,being post-fixed.

But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

Gosh
30-04-12, 13:12
But I think these slavs only brought leading class and language not majority of DNA since people in Balkans and Romania are too dark haired and have too high percentage of brown and dark brown eyes to be from there (Vistula region).
Because I know people from there are mostly blue eyed,being with amongst highest percentages in the world with blue eyes - know that belarussians have mostly blue eyes,at over 50% percentage or even more.
And this could also explain the significant percentage of I1 in serbians and croats and so on.
I remember to saw they also found N1C1 in serbians,about 3% so if that is coming to be true,than is clear.

OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

mihaitzateo
30-04-12, 22:05
OMG How long we will talk about dark and light hair/eyes? Did you know that southern Russians are much more dark than those who are living close to Baltic region? Did you know that people from Spain is much darker than people from Irleand? Both of them are mainly R1b but southern people are darker because they are living in a warm climate with much of sunny days and they are mixed with population which lived there before. Their organism contains more melanine and thats the reason for that.


The highest percentage of blue-eyed people is in Estonia. 40% of Estonians belongs to N1c1 which is close related with other N-s whose mainly looks like mongoloids. Which conclusions we can derive from that?

I understand that your obsession is to prove that I2a1-Din aren't slavic population. But, your arguments are too pale for now.

I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

zanipolo
01-05-12, 08:26
I do not understand why a certain paternal haplogrup clade should be linked with only a population.
Beside,I do not really believe that such a thing as "slavs" because as you take how people look in Bulgaria,they look different from Serbia and Montenegro and very different from those in Rusia,very diferent from those in Belarus or Czechoslovakia and so on.
To tell R1A1 is slavic is again wrong,because is known there are many clades and some clades are present in different populations.
There is the group of slavic languages,as it is the group of romance languages,but take for example romanians,which are speaking a romance language and people from Spain which are speaking again another romance language,they are very far away on both Y DNA and mt DNA,but take romanians who are speaking a romance language and bulgarians who are speaking a slavic language they are very close on both Y DNA and mt DNA.
So I am saying you can not link a haplogrup clade as general as I2-a din is with only a group of populations speaking languages from same branch of indo-european languages.
I think we should not look with fanatism Y DNA tests.
There is very possibile that Romania and Bulgaria have also some celtic inheritance at least on maternal line,because as barbarian thraco-dacians were I doubt they exterminated celts that were living amongst them and so on.
Till around 1000 or even later,1400-1500 it was a troubled period of Europe,till when ethnicities formed but previous they mixed a lot.
What it exist till now is few data from Y DNA and mt DNA tests,which were not made always with sub-clades and so on.
What maps are here are based on generalisations,because this is how this science is till now,only at begining.

Besides nations/ethicities are based on common language and common customs and closed life style rather that on common genetic ancestry.
Take 2 twins,raise one in Italy and learn him as maternal language italian and raise another one in Germany and learn him as maternal language german.
Let them live until they make 18 years old.
They will look very close,as phisical but they will be of different ethnicities and of very different characters.

So actually no one tryed to associate a Y DNA haplogrup with romance speaking populations,but some wanted to associate some haplogrup/haplogrups with slavic speaking people.

i basically agree with you, the slavic people are slavs due to language and not genetics. The term slavic means the same to me as the terms of, baltic, germanic, iberic, nordic, latin, celtic etc etc all linguistic based.

Gosh
01-05-12, 12:31
Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

mihaitzateo
01-05-12, 14:22
Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

How about Austria?

sparkey
01-05-12, 17:29
Do we have ANY modern nation which is different from that what you talk about? EVERY nation/people is just that due to language and culture.

When we observe a quite young haplogroup as I2a1b, we can only see that its dispersion started from a geographically small place and that period fits to the period of Slavic expansion.

Exactly, this. Young, recently expanded haplogroups tend to fit better with more recent population expansions, as I2a-Din does for Slavs, much of I1 does for Germanic peoples, I2a2b does for Celtic peoples, etc. The criticism that haplogroups tend to span multiple historical groups holds much better for haplogroups with expansions that significantly predate history. In terms of I subclades, think I2a2a, I2a1a, etc.


Practically, there's no I2a-Din outside the region of Slavic expansion. Even more, space/time components fits 100%.

For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.


How about Austria?

Carantania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania)

Gosh
02-05-12, 01:12
How about Austria?

What do you want to say with Austria?

Gosh
02-05-12, 01:43
For the most part I agree, although I find the case of Moldova interesting in particular, and I'm interested in how you resolve the apparently high frequency and diversity of I2a-Din-N there. It doesn't seem as clear cut as the I2a-Din-S expansion on the Balkans.


Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=11798&rog3=MD


According to some theories the Gagauz people descend from the Seljuq Turks that settled in Dobruja, or from Pechenegs, Uz (Oghuz) and Cuman (Kipchak) people that followed the Anatolian Seljuq Sultan Izzeddin Keykavus II (1236–1276). More specifically, one clan of Oghuz Turks migrated to the Balkans during the inter-tribal conflicts with other Turks.

Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

Yetos
02-05-12, 04:38
Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks
Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

In Moldova are the ones who followed the Russian Army, while their settlements exist also in Pazardix and Yambol Bulgaria, Beroia Serres Euros river in Greece from 1383 ED (AD),
According to a Gagauz Historian Κραχτογλου Krahtoglu (p 1878) they exist from 1383 in balkans
According to some others they were Greeks-Balkanic who change language,
the term Gagavuz seems to be first mention after the 4rth Crusade,

their inner name is Hiristiani (Christians!!!!)

Until 1957 Gagauz use the Greek alphabet instead of Turkish -Arabian-Semitic alphabets

link
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/gagauz.htm

Gagavuz fall to Ottoman Turks at 1398 ,

their primary land is considered the land south of the Bulgars from Haskovo (white village in Gagauz lang, to Varna and Adrianopolis, until Nestos river and some villages in Makedonia)

I can give Historical links but mostly in Greek language,

Gagavuz people according the late Greek authors-searchers are considered a mix of local population which mixed with a minority of minor Asia population,
Meaning that the original Gagavuz where minor Asians non Turkish small quantity-percentance, who mixed with local population that was forced to choose among changing religion or language, to a bigger percentance.

Greek historians are mentioning them from 1243,
as the people of the mother of the Sultan (older local population, before entrance of Seljuks)

the case of Turkish population that was Christianized is simply a joke, cause it was easy to accept Islam in 1400 AD but not the other.

zanipolo
02-05-12, 07:59
Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion. There's a very interesting Turkic ethnic group in Moldova- Gagauzes http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=11798&rog3=MD



Well... we know now that we don't have I's outside Europe. That means only one thing- 30% of I2a1-Din-N in Gagauzi people didn't come with Pecheneges but they are assimilated there.

It is a similar situation like with Hungarian nation today. More than 50% Hungarians belongs to R1a/I2a as their Slavic neighbors. Probability that these I2a-Din came together with Atilla from Asia is lower than 0.001% On the other hand, we have Bulgarians who remained their Slavic language but they adopted name which isn't Slavic by origin. That I2-Din-N could easily belong to the (today's) Bulgarian tribes which lived there up to arriving of Bulgarians from today's Russia.

South Slavs (Din-S) obviously had a "baby boom" in the past. I2a-Din-S wasn't so numerous in the period when they arrived in Balkans. Even more, that Din-S is the same for today's Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

hmm, not so many "normal" people here ........... !!?

in regards to hungarians , and voyvodina area, is it not in majority based on avars and magyars with a bit of hunnic?

I assume you favour the KN situation that I2-Din came from the ukraine marshes and then the balkans was only J2 and E1b and not the scenario of the goths bringing it from the vistula area

sparkey
02-05-12, 17:43
Sparkey, I respect you 'coz you're one from (not so many) "normal" people here :) You're trying to judge problems with the scientific facts, not with some kind of myths.

Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.


If Nordtvedt is right, then there's no other explanation than Slavic expansion.

Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)


It is not a secret now that tribes which were dominantly I2-Din-S came firstly in today's Bosnia (which were part of Roman province Dalmatia), and even more precisely, in Herzegovina. They dispersed themselves to the eastern parts of Croatia and western parts of Serbia.

This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

zanipolo
03-05-12, 08:00
Thanks, that's what I try to do. Your analyses have also been very good so far.



Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

(Disclaimer: To be clear, the above is exclusively about Moldova and its immediate surroundings. I still strongly favor a Slavic introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans.)



This proposed migration fits all the best analyses I've seen, so I'm inclined to agree.

your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

The earliest historian for the balkans geography and peoples was Scylax who wrote about the tribes and languages of the balkans in 490BC, he does not mention anything about slavic.

Gosh
03-05-12, 11:57
Is that true? I'm thinking that with the age of I2a-Din-N, it's possible to find an earlier expansion. Not, like, the Neolithic, but a movement of peoples that narrowly predates the Roman Empire. For example, do you think we can totally rule out the Dacians as a source for some of the Moldovan I2a-Din-N? It seems like it could have moved around a little before it got absorbed into the Slavic population, and expanded with them. Personally, I'm leaning against this interpretation, because I think it's more likely that a small,
"absorbable" population would be something outside the bounds of a more established group, like the Dacians. But it still seems like a possibility to me.

well... nobody can know for sure what happened in the past. The only way would be to cluster Moldavian I2a-Din and compare them with the rest of Slavic I2a-Din. We need some time for that (more DNA results) . I only can say that early today's Bulgarians (so called, union of seven Slavic tribes) lived in that region.
Of course, it is quite possible that some early bearer of I2a-Din "escaped" from the "Slavic environment" and started to live with another tribes. But, if we find that Moldavian I2a-Din are in the same cluster as those in Bulgarians, everything would be clear.


I agree, though, that Turkic and Hunnic peoples have no evidence whatsoever of being the source of I2a-Din anywhere. So that narrows the field, but I'm not sure yet that it narrows it down to the Slavs exclusively, even though it's fairly clear that in later migrations, I2a-Din and Slavic peoples would be strongly linked.

I dunno, to be honest. According to KN motherland of I2a-Din is in the region of Slavic motherland. Distribution of this haplogroup is again closely related with Slavic migrations. We also have significant amounts of I2a's in non-Slavic populations like Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Hungarians, Germans. But, all of them were under Slavic influence in some period of time.

Gosh
03-05-12, 12:06
Gagauz people is a strange case, they Speak Turkic but Historical facts prove them to Be minor Asians Half Greek, NON Turks

Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.



Ι mean they consider minor Asian population who change language and not religion,
I do not know about their genetics, but I know their History,
remember that Gagauz live in Greece also, Γκαγκαουζοι-Γκαγκαβουζοι

It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

Yetos
03-05-12, 12:45
Well... I'll say a big truth now... Modern Turks are not genuine Turks which conquered Asia Minor. Highest percent of them belonged to the people who lived there before Turkish arrival. They were conquered and assimilated.



It is a bit suspicious. Turkic language came into Asia Minor with Oguz's tribe. When they came, they were Muslims already. That means that they couldn't preserve Christianity and receive only Turkic language.

Nope according the laws of Islam non muslims should pay taxes to save their necks,
Turks always gave an alternate solution, they force people to change one of their older identity,
In order not to pay 'save head' Tax people should either change language or religion,
Byzantines and Greeks choose to change language and keep religion that why in 1923 and exchange of population there were hundreds of Greeks who did not even speak Greek, only few prays and religious words,

on the other hand in Balkans All population change religion, that is why Bosnia and Albania and Pomaks speak their languages today, but kept their languages.

a good example are the Kappadokian Greeks the Zeibek Greeks etc most of them re-learn the Greek language after 1923,

yet Gagavuz are not Seljuks but the people of the mother of the Sultan who was Byzantine Christian,
Besides primary Balkanic homeland of Gagavuz is next to Adrianoupolis Turkish Edirne which was the Turkish capital for many decades, they should change either religion either language, as the common Turkish demands,

majority of Gagavuz are considered Balcanic who have South Thracian culture (modern) but the terminology is from minor Asian Gagavuz who moved from the city of Ikonio.

the think that you should see as 'suspicious' is why Gagavuz used Greek alphabet until 1957 when USSR forbid them so. and not Cyrillic or Turkish -Arabian if they were Turks

sparkey
03-05-12, 17:29
your comments seem very unexacting, confusing in reference to slavic, what do you mean?. the slavic language did not enter the balkans as per historians until the 6th century AD.
OR do you mean a people brought this I2a-DIn who later became slavic due to learning the slavic tongue.

You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

I think that the assimilation into Slavic culture happened somewhere other than these two places, and before it spread to these two places, probably in Ukraine. I guess Belarus and some other places are possibilities as well.


It would be as confusing as say.....the nordic invaded England in their longships,

How is that confusing? I also have a rough idea of what haplogroups Anglo-Saxons and Vikings are likely to have brought to England.

Templar
07-01-13, 23:59
You're getting at what I mean more with the first interpretation. I think that the folks who brought I2a-Din to the Balkans spoke Slavic language, and migrated in the 1st millennium CE. And I was saying, that also seems likely for the earliest I2a-Din in Moldova, or at least the bulk of it, but that I'm less sure about that case.

Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

sparkey
08-01-13, 00:39
Sparky maybe I2a-Din was already in the Balkans, but not in the Western half of it. I don't see how a large number of haplogroup I could have survived in the plains of Eastern Europe, the Indo-Europeans would have completely massacred them. I mean if you look at haplogroup maps, the only places where Haplogroup I survived was isolated places like Scandinavia and locations where they were close enough to near eastern farmers to recieve farming technology. Imagine a scenario where a strong haplogroup I population lived in modern Romania, and as Slavs came along they brought a large number of their population into the West balkans. By the time that they would have arrived, most of the people they brough along would have been Slavicized.

Actually, what you describe isn't wholly incompatible with what I have been thinking. If we go back to the origin of the Slavs, what were they? They must have been a branch of the Balto-Slavs, and since we know that the Balts did not end up with I2a-Din, the best assumption must be that the Slavs absorbed some other population toward the beginning of their origin. Their subsequent migrations could have expanded their absorbed genetics at the expense of those they share with the Balts.

Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons. For one, Romania was a core Dacian area, and it's a bit easier to explain the early Slavs absorbing an unknown northern tribe than absorbing the Dacians. Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

As for where Haplogroup I "survived," I don't think that modern frequency distributions tell us much. I have explored (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) where Haplogroup I seems to have ended up mostly following the Neolithic, and it doesn't match modern frequency distributions very well. Notably, I2a-Din has always seemed to be an outlier, especially considering that its closest cousins are quite western. One pattern I notice is that they did not seem to have survived in only "isolated places"... rather, other than a few oddities like North Britain, the Pyrenees, and the Alps, they seem to have survived mainly in hospitable places like the Rhine and the Atlantic Fringe. Most modern I-heavy "isolated" areas seem to have gotten their I from later expansions (Sardinia, Scandinavia, Dinaric Alps...).

Templar
08-01-13, 00:57
Was the Haplogroup I2-heavy population they absorbed in Romania? That's certainly a possibility, although I have been inclined to imagine the absorption event happening farther north for a couple of reasons.

Well I heard there was a lot of I2 diversity there, and it also seems like a good location for the existence of a mixed-paleolithic-near eastern population.


Secondly, if we consider the alternate possibility (closer to what you describe) of the expanding Slavs absorbing an I2-heavy population as they expanded, we're unable to explain why East Slavs also have I2a-Din... again placing this mystery I2a-Din source population farther north, where the Slavs are thought to have originated (Ukraine?).

Could back migrations explain it? Or perhaps when Slavs conquered Romania, they took a percentage of the population off as slaves which they then sold to other Slavs. If Romania was heavily populated at the time, the slaves could have left a big imprint Y-haplogroup-wise on all Slavic populations.

nordicwarrior
08-01-13, 04:02
Sparkey, I recently mentioned this on another thread... The Dacians "look" haplogroup I to me, including the leadership. This is a totally unscientific observation, but the statues show full beards, large frames, wider faces, wavy hair. They seem almost Norse in appearance. The sculptors were really able to capture alot of detail in their work.

Dalmat
14-01-13, 02:22
With Croatshttp://www.hkz-kkv.ch/slike/bijela_hr.jpghttp://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4391/balanowsky2012.png

nordicwarrior
14-01-13, 20:34
Dumb question, but what hg would Jason and the Argonauts have the best chance of being a member?

nordicwarrior
14-01-13, 20:34
The Argonauts would almost have to be a branch of I wouldn't they?

nordicwarrior
14-01-13, 22:26
After more research, I think they would have been a mix of sea peoples--so maybe I2, J2, G, and E?

Yetos
14-01-13, 23:44
it is funny,
R1 came from steppes after 3500 BC, R1b and R1a
Sea peoples who are mentioned after 2000 BC were I2 J2 G E,
N Hg is very rare and very North,
J1 is mostly Semitic and rare,
let me see...
So Varna culture at 4000 BC was only I1, cause that is what left, at least in Greece, before steppe and sea peoples,

Funny is n't it?

nordicwarrior
15-01-13, 02:16
I go back and forth on the age of haplogroup I1. Does Varna hold verifiable proof of ancient I1? What about I2a-Din?

Eldritch
01-04-13, 00:29
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-03/1364613803



A Polish I-L621 is ancestral for two SNPs unlike other I-L621 people

This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.

gyms
01-04-13, 09:56
This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.[/QUOTE]What´s the "proof",Eldritch?

Eldritch
01-04-13, 16:19
This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.[QUOTE]What´s the "proof",Eldritch?
Read the link i posted.

gyms
01-04-13, 16:37
[QUOTE=gyms;405726]This is another proof that makes this haplogroup ancestral of Slavs.
Read the link i posted.

OK.And?Exactly wich part of the link support your assumption?

Eldritch
02-04-13, 23:14
[QUOTE=Eldritch;405734]

OK.And?Exactly wich part of the link support your assumption?
Here it is.


He is
identical to the other Dinarics with two exceptions:

he is ancestral (A) for CTS10228
he is ancestral (T) for CTS5966

He is derived for three other SNPs like the other Dinarics:
CTS10936
CTS11768
CTS4002

(the Disles guy is ancestral for all 5 of these SNPs).

(Also, the new Polish guy is ancestral for the SNP found only in the Disles
guy, he is ancestral for the SNP found only in one Greek Dinaric, and he is
ancestral for the SNP found only in one Jewish cluster Dinaric)

al-kochol
03-04-13, 04:42
I2 came to Balkans with Ostrogoths.

Eldritch
03-04-13, 18:07
I2 came to Balkans with Ostrogoths.
Probably you mean I-M223 not I2a1b.

al-kochol
04-04-13, 01:51
Probably you mean I-M223 not I2a1b.

I mean I2. Ostrogoths were one of many tribes that emerged out of Scythia. Do not be mislead by their name, given to them by Romans. Ostrogoths were not a Germanic tribe and had zero connection to "Swedish" Goths, i.e. Adolf Hitler's Nordics. Ostrogoths did not speak a Germanic language, which is the truth that Germans do not like to hear as it undermines their Drang Nach Osten policy.

LeBrok
04-04-13, 02:38
Ostrogoths did not speak a Germanic language,
And what language did they speak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language

Gosh
05-04-13, 12:06
I mean I2. Ostrogoths were one of many tribes that emerged out of Scythia. Do not be mislead by their name, given to them by Romans. Ostrogoths were not a Germanic tribe and had zero connection to "Swedish" Goths, i.e. Adolf Hitler's Nordics. Ostrogoths did not speak a Germanic language, which is the truth that Germans do not like to hear as it undermines their Drang Nach Osten policy.

No.....
Ostrogoths lived for some period of time in the region of today's Dalmatia but they continued their movement to the west. More precisely, they left Dalmatia and settled Italy.

Do we have I2a Dinaric in Italy? As far as I know, it is not true.

al-kochol
06-04-13, 10:46
Ostrogoths spoke the language similar to their neighbours'. Germans were not there.

al-kochol
06-04-13, 10:48
No.....

Do we have I2a Dinaric in Italy? As far as I know, it is not true.

We have plenty of I2 in Sardinia.

Eldritch
06-04-13, 13:36
We have plenty of I2 in Sardinia.
Completely different clade.

al-kochol
07-04-13, 02:03
I2a1 could come with Vandals (Sardinia) while I2a2 with Ostrogoths (Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia). Both were non-Germanic tribes, contrary to claims of German propaganda.

Gosh
07-04-13, 22:16
We have plenty of I2 in Sardinia.


Completely different clade.

I2a M26 is not called "Dinaric" :)

al-kochol
08-04-13, 09:35
I2a M26 is not called "Dinaric" :)

So, it is then "Vandalic" :)

Gosh
09-04-13, 19:46
So, it is then "Vandalic" :)

M26 lived there many thousands of years before any Vandals. The highest level of variance is in the southern France.

adamo
13-04-13, 20:54
Dinaric I2a got to its current position either directly from Anatolia through Greece to their highest concentration location of Bosnia Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia area. Or through the Caucasus and extreme southern Russia hugging the coast of the black sea until penetrating Ukraine until reaching Moldova from where they subsequently spread to their current highest % locations in the Balkans, in my opinion.

Shetop
22-04-13, 12:20
Here is my answer to the thread's original question - Slavic migrations represented on a map of Ukrainian origin. The tribes were initially somewhere in western Ukraine, moved south to western Moldavia (or Romanian Moldavia), then to Wallachia and from there to different parts of the Balkans. My opinion is that this scenario was the same for all Balkan I2a-Din. The time frame for Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavs is well described in historical sources, and for Slavs that are now are west from them I give interpretation that is not mine originally but it is also not broadly accepted. So, I think that the crucial event was when Avars destroyed Gepid kingdom in 568, when large number of Slavs moved west and southwest from Wallachia. For initial reading see this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni .

5859

I've had this opinion for some time but two recent researches additionally convinced me. First one from Romania which showed only 12% for I2a in Cluj, and second one more recent, from Bulgaria which gave approximate ratio between Din-N and Din-S in Bulgaria. It seems to be around 55% Din-N : 45% Din-S.

gyms
13-05-13, 16:50
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-05/1367432098

Shetop
01-06-13, 10:18
If this is not the proof that I2a-Din is recent in Southeast Europe, then I don't know what is: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

Eldritch
01-06-13, 13:53
If this is not the proof that I2a-Din is recent in Southeast Europe, than I don't know what is: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
That study is another proof of the statement you made.

gyms
01-06-13, 17:58
This proofs only one thing:I2a-Din was not in the Balkan during Roman times.

zanipolo
10-07-13, 08:17
resurrecting an old renaissance theory with current modern new ideas.

I2a as reported by KenN is ukraine and moldovian which in the late bronze-age and early iron-age was the land of the Cimmeranians. The cimmeranians where pushed out of the pontic steppe by the scythians.
Recored history tells us that one branch of the cimmeranians went to Anatolia ( cappodocia)and the other branch settled initially in the Hungarian plains ( pannonia ).
A further split occurred as one branch went from pannonia to dalmatia and the other along the danube and sava rivers.
By 500BC they had been absorbed by eastward moving celts and disappeared from history in the balkans.

My take, I am unsure, I still ask if the I2a went into the balkans, then what marker was in northern Illyria since there is very very little of the E marker there

Ike
13-07-13, 01:46
Many Roman emperors were born in areas that are high with I2a nowdays.
Any research on their haplotyope?

zanipolo
18-07-13, 08:09
My thoughts on how I2a1 got to the balkans
It arrived by 700BC with the cimmeranians, they then merged with "illyrians" who where R1b and G2a in majority and swept south over time punching into E1B thracian lands. eventually to be stopped by the macedonians

Note: there where other haplotypes but I focused on the main

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1293/ew1t.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/ew1t.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Fire Haired
24-07-13, 22:23
u gues are making i2a1b much more recent than it actullely is G2a came in Neloithic R1a and R1b came in brnze age hg I has been in europe for over 30,000 years. I2a1b has probably been in eastern europe for over 15,000 years it is re everything exceot paloithic it is from cavman times u cant find a Neolithic ion age culture that will match where i2a1b came from. trying to say iit is the cimmermans honestly makes n sense at all.

sparkey
24-07-13, 22:44
u gues are making i2a1b much more recent than it actullely is G2a came in Neloithic R1a and R1b came in brnze age hg I has been in europe for over 30,000 years. I2a1b has probably been in eastern europe for over 15,000 years it is re everything exceot paloithic it is from cavman times u cant find a Neolithic ion age culture that will match where i2a1b came from. trying to say iit is the cimmermans honestly makes n sense at all.

It's possible to claim both that the ancestors of I2a-Din were Paleolithic Europeans, and that its modern spread is primarily the result of much later migrations. Hence why I argue that I2a-Din descends from residents of Paleolithic Europe (I've argued for the Franco-Iberian Ice Age refuge, although most other authors argue for the Balkans); but at the same time I believe it spread later with the Slavs. I think that's the best guess you get when you traverse the I2 tree. I2a P37.2+ as a whole is very western in its diversity and seems to have an affinity (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) for the Atlantic Fringe and the Rhine. I2a-Din itself is in fact a geographic outlier in the I2a family, and STR dating, along with a lack of ancient samples compared to I2a1a M26+, indicates that it only became the most common I2a subclade recently.

Fire Haired
24-07-13, 23:46
Why slavs the Slavic marker is R1a1a1b1 not I2a1b. The slavic language spread to Yugoslavia in the middle ages. I2a1b had already been there it is much more rare in the place Slavic languages spread from to Yugoslavia in my opinion there is no way that is the source. Frm what Maciamo says I2a1 started 20,000ybp in a ice age refuge somewhere ins outhern Europe then I2a1a(western meditreaen) and I2a1b split almost immeditaly. That is what he said in his Genetic history of Italy that makes alot more sense to me.

The extremly recent I1 dates make no sense at all there is no evidence that I1a2 spread in Scandinavia from Neolithic, Bronze, or Iron age cultures.

sparkey
25-07-13, 00:15
Why slavs the Slavic marker is R1a1a1b1 not I2a1b.

No population has only one marker. I agree, in fact, that the pre-proto-Slavs, i.e. the Balto-Slavs, would have probably been R1a dominant. Their shared R1a testifies to this. After that, the most likely scenario I see is the two populations splitting and absorbing and/or expanding local N1c (in the case of the Balts) and I2a-Din (in the case of the Slavs) markers.


The slavic language spread to Yugoslavia in the middle ages. I2a1b had already been there it is much more rare in the place Slavic languages spread from to Yugoslavia in my opinion there is no way that is the source.

You're making an argument from modern frequency again. Haven't you read yet about why this is a poor line of reasoning?


Frm what Maciamo says I2a1 started 20,000ybp in a ice age refuge somewhere ins outhern Europe then I2a1a(western meditreaen) and I2a1b split almost immeditaly. That is what he said in his Genetic history of Italy that makes alot more sense to me.

All of that is basically correct, and not incompatible with I2a1b3a L147.2+ ("I2a-Din") being spread by the Slavs. Notice that I2a-Din is even further downstream than I2a1b. It's a young haplogroup (younger than I1!). So it can both have ancestors as you describe, and be spread by the Slavs coming down from the Ukraine area.

Fire Haired
25-07-13, 02:16
No population has only one marker. I agree, in fact, that the pre-proto-Slavs, i.e. the Balto-Slavs, would have probably been R1a dominant. Their shared R1a testifies to this. After that, the most likely scenario I see is the two populations splitting and absorbing and/or expanding local N1c (in the case of the Balts) and I2a-Din (in the case of the Slavs) markers.

Dont u know slavic langauges have only been in the Balkans for about 1,000 years. I2a1b in modern Yugolsvaiens without a doubt is from Illryains their Yugoslavians ancestors. Polish are very very very different genetically than Yugoslavians just because modern Yugoslavians speak a Slavic languages does not mean they come from the same stock as Polish and Russians. I really dont see any connection with I2a1b and Slavs. For one thing I2a1b is mainly in southeast Europe not slavic speaking areas. The Balto Slavic language was spread by Corded ware culture there is no connection with I2a1b Slavs, or corded ware culture. In my opinion I2a1b is a Paloithic haplogroup that was able to survive migrations and invasions. &,000ybp it probably dominated all of eastern Europe except Russia which is where proto Indo Europeans would have been.


All of that is basically correct, and not incompatible with I2a1b3a L147.2+ ("I2a-Din") being spread by the Slavs. Notice that I2a-Din is even further downstream than I2a1b. It's a young haplogroup (younger than I1!). So it can both have ancestors as you describe, and be spread by the Slavs coming down from the Ukraine area.

I1 is not yound at all i get sick of these young haplogroup predictions. The people that make these predictions dont even consider ancient Cultures like where they where at what time. They would realize there is no way I1 is less than 10,000 years old. The Scientits who figure all of the DNA stuff out are terrible at making conclusions on how it spread to figure that stuff out u need to be like a detective not a sceintits.

Think about it Kunda culture 8,000ybp conquered Finalnd and brough N1c and Urlaic languages. Finnish still speak a Uralic language and are dominated by N1c but they still have alot of I1a2. The native Finnish where Caucasian we have their skulls and some mtDNA the invading Kunda culture where Mongliods from Siberia. I1a2 is the native Caucasian haplogroup there is no way N1c was there before I1a2. There was no Neloithic, Bronze, age, or Iron age culture that existed throughout all of Scandinavia that could explain how I1a2 is spread out.

Scandinavia is very far north and cold. Farming, bronze, and iron making spread to Scandinavia last and usuelly was only in southern Scandinavia. How do u explain how well spread out I1a2 is. People in far northern Scandinavia where hunter gathers till i think just 1,000ybp they had almost no contact with Germanic tribes. I1a2 is the native Scandinavian group it settled Scandinavia probably 11,000ybp then later migrations brought new haplogroups. which is why R1b, R1a, N1c, I2a2, G2a, E1b1b,J1, J2, and R1a are in certain areas of Scandinavia that match pre historic cultures while I1a2 is spread out.

also the rest of Europe has diff subclades than Scandinavia u already know this. All of this mean I1 is very very old in my opinion 20,000-30,000 years old. It probably spread out f southern Europe after the last glacial maximum. Giving a date to I1 too 5,000ybp is a joke then how do u explain how spread out it is in Scandinavia and why the rest of Europe has diff subclades than Scandinavia and how I1 has so many subclades.

zanipolo
25-07-13, 08:33
It's possible to claim both that the ancestors of I2a-Din were Paleolithic Europeans, and that its modern spread is primarily the result of much later migrations. Hence why I argue that I2a-Din descends from residents of Paleolithic Europe (I've argued for the Franco-Iberian Ice Age refuge, although most other authors argue for the Balkans); but at the same time I believe it spread later with the Slavs. I think that's the best guess you get when you traverse the I2 tree. I2a P37.2+ as a whole is very western in its diversity and seems to have an affinity (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) for the Atlantic Fringe and the Rhine. I2a-Din itself is in fact a geographic outlier in the I2a family, and STR dating, along with a lack of ancient samples compared to I2a1a M26+, indicates that it only became the most common I2a subclade recently.

If I2a-Din came with the slavs in the 5th century AD, then illyrians would have been in majority R1b and that means indo-europeans. Is this what you are alluding to?

Ken N states the marker( i2a) came from ukraine, the only major migration into "illyrian" lands for that marker in BC times ( iron-age) was from the cimmerains. If it was introduced in the bronze-age then it cannot have been a ukraine marker.

Shetop
25-07-13, 09:44
Ken N states the marker( i2a) came from ukraine, the only major migration into "illyrian" lands for that marker in BC times ( iron-age) was from the cimmerains. If it was introduced in the bronze-age then it cannot have been a ukraine marker.

Why do you think I2a-Din migrated "in BC times" ?

sparkey
25-07-13, 18:35
I really dont see any connection with I2a1b and Slavs. For one thing I2a1b is mainly in southeast Europe not slavic speaking areas.

...Eh? Those aren't mutually exclusive. Southeast Europe is largely Slavic speaking, and I2a-Din is higher in Slavic-speaking areas of Southeast Europe (for example, its frequency dips in Albania and Greece).

I suppose you're trying to argue that I2a-Din is not as common in the Slavic countries without Illyrian influence. But it's really not so much of a dip that it invalidates a Slavic connection to it: 21% in Ukraine, 18% in Belarus, 11% in Russia, 9% in Poland (including out members of the haplotype most common in the Balkans), etc. These are not particularly Illyrian places, but quite Slavic.

This, of course, leads to the question: Why do West Slavs and East Slavs have lower I2a-Din : R1a ratios than South Slavs? To me, the obvious answer is regional differences that were amplified during expansion. We also see regional differences among different Germanic peoples, and among different Celtic peoples, so why not among different Slavic peoples?

I've repeated this line of argument several times now, although I can forgive you if you don't have time to read through this whole thread. :embarassed:


The Balto Slavic language was spread by Corded ware culture there is no connection with I2a1b Slavs, or corded ware culture.

I agree that there is no obvious connection between I2a-Din and Corded Ware culture, other than that its initial launching point was once within Corded Ware culture. But as I just said, the Balto-Slavs were likely R1a dominant, and I suspect that the drift (or amplification) of I2a-Din within their population happened after (or as) they differentiated into Balts and Slavs. So this line of argument doesn't contradict me.


In my opinion I2a1b is a Paloithic haplogroup that was able to survive migrations and invasions.

This doesn't contradict me either.


&,000ybp it probably dominated all of eastern Europe except Russia which is where proto Indo Europeans would have been.

Then why do the 2 currently known subclades of I2a1b to have existed around that time not converge on Eastern Europe? One has its highest diversity in Western and Central Europe (with an interesting outlier in Iraq), and the other is evenly split between Western and Eastern Europe. If anything is clear about I2a1b, it's that we can't pin it down yet. Eastern Europe seems like far from a safe assumption at this point, much less speculating that it "dominated all of eastern Europe except Russia."


I1 is not yound at all i get sick of these young haplogroup predictions. The people that make these predictions dont even consider ancient Cultures like where they where at what time. They would realize there is no way I1 is less than 10,000 years old. The Scientits who figure all of the DNA stuff out are terrible at making conclusions on how it spread to figure that stuff out u need to be like a detective not a sceintits.

So they need to start from conclusions about how haplogroups map to ancient cultures, then work backwards to come up with dates, and, uh... ignore STR (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf) and SNP (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/SNP_y-Haplogroup_Tree_v1.pdf) dating converging to give a young age for I1? :confused2:

What about STR and SNP dating makes you think they're so inaccurate? Just that they don't match the conclusions you've already made about I1?


how do u explain how spread out it is in Scandinavia

Because I1 and Scandinavia were both in the equation during the Germanic ethnogenesis.


and why the rest of Europe has diff subclades than Scandinavia

They don't have different subclades entirely, at least of the common higher-level subclades, just different frequencies of the same ones. This is due to normal regional variance patterns that you get with every haplogroup.


and how I1 has so many subclades.

Having many subclades all expanding around the same time is evidence for rapid expansion out of a bottleneck. I would suggest its drift into, and expansion via, the early Germanic peoples is the main culprit.

gyms
26-07-13, 12:21
...Eh? Those aren't mutually exclusive. Southeast Europe is largely Slavic speaking, and I2a-Din is higher in Slavic-speaking areas of Southeast Europe (for example, its frequency dips in Albania and Greece).
There is 20% I2a-Din in Székelys from Bukovina and 25% I2a-Din in Jász people from Jászság,Hungary.Gagauzes are not slavs.They have 24-32% I2a-Din.

sparkey
26-07-13, 17:23
There is 20% I2a-Din in Székelys from Bukovina and 25% I2a-Din in Jász people from Jászság,Hungary.Gagauzes are not slavs.They have 24-32% I2a-Din.

The 15% as a whole in Hungary doesn't really contradict that these groups could be impacted by neighboring groups. It borders Serbia (35%) and Croatia (37%) after all. Besides, Hungary is usually counted as Central Europe rather than Southeast Europe.

The Romanians and Moldovans are more challenging, I admit, although it's worth noting that they are heavily I2a-Din-N, as opposed to the I2a-Din-S that is more prominent in the Slavic expansion on the Balkans. Could I2a-Din-N in Romanians and Moldovans be a leftover from the I2a-Din source population(s) before it drifted into, and expanded with, the Slavs? Maybe. If anybody has that, it's the Romanians and Moldovans.

On a related note, has anybody followed the discovery of the "I2a-Din-cousins" branch? Basically, a more ancient sample on the I2a-Din branch than I2a-Din-N has been found in a family in southern Poland. See Cullen (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-07/1374680227). This may place the Dinaric branch more solidly in Central Europe, and imply that the early I2a-Din-N is an Eastern split off it, with perhaps I2a-Din-S a backmigration to Poland before its expansion on the Balkans. It may not help us solve which populations it belonged to, but it's an interesting indication that there may be more yet to find among modern populations...

gyms
31-07-13, 05:48
"You're making an argument from modern frequency again. Haven't you read yet about why this is a poor line of reasoning?"

Sile
31-07-13, 07:52
Why do you think I2a-Din migrated "in BC times" ?

It would be because if the Illyrians are predominately R1b and that the I2a-Din arrived with the slavs in 500AD, then R1b would be more dominant than it is now in the areas of Croatia, Serbia etc. Instead I2a-Din dominates

Shetop
31-07-13, 10:09
It would be because if the Illyrians are predominately R1b and that the I2a-Din arrived with the slavs in 500AD, then R1b would be more dominant than it is now in the areas of Croatia, Serbia etc. Instead I2a-Din dominates

I don't know if this is also your opinion, but I am not following the logic there. Is it because Illyrian language was Indoeuropean (and R1b should be Indoeuropean also)? My opinion is that there are no real arguments for such scenario.

I mean, look at the Hungarians - the dominant haplogroups among them and the language they speak. That simple example knocks the above theory down. Both language and high frequency arguments are not those that should be considered as strong in that kind of analysis.

sparkey
31-07-13, 16:59
"You're making an argument from modern frequency again. Haven't you read yet about why this is a poor line of reasoning?"

Are you trying to make a point by quoting me here?

gyms
01-08-13, 08:42
Yes sparkey.Your arguments are based on modern frequencies and languages. "The 15% as a whole in Hungary doesn't really contradict that these groups could be impacted by neighboring groups. It borders Serbia (35%) and Croatia (37%) after all. Besides, Hungary is usually counted as Central Europe rather than Southeast Europe."

sparkey
01-08-13, 17:24
Yes sparkey.Your arguments are based on modern frequencies and languages. "The 15% as a whole in Hungary doesn't really contradict that these groups could be impacted by neighboring groups. It borders Serbia (35%) and Croatia (37%) after all. Besides, Hungary is usually counted as Central Europe rather than Southeast Europe."

My principal objection is with using modern frequencies to determine ancient frequencies, as Fire Haired was doing. But you brought up modern frequencies only. Using neighboring modern frequencies to determine the source of modern frequencies is less shaky ground.

That said, of course, performing a diversity analysis would tell us more. We need to look at the haplotype distribution of I2a-Din in Hungary, and which direction its cline points. Verenich sees a cline coming from the direction of Bosnia (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/15055-Was-hg-I2a2a-Thraco-Illirian?p=452215&viewfull=1#post452215):


Two "arrows" - one, connecting Bosnia to Hungary, and another, linking Montenegro to Serbia - may represent more recent I2a2a population migrations of XV-XVII centuries.

Is that better?

gyms
01-08-13, 21:11
"Is that better?" Who knows?We don`t know anything for sure. http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00102-6/abstract

sparkey
01-08-13, 23:22
"Is that better?" Who knows?We don`t know anything for sure. http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00102-6/abstract (http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973%2813%2900102-6/abstract)

So you're not even willing to comment on an analysis until we know things for sure? How boring. I'll be looking at the evidence we have available while you wait on that.

Interesting citation by the way, looks like a follow up to the Wei 2012 paper Dienekes discussed here (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/10/calibrated-human-y-chromosome-phylogeny.html). In that one, their GENETREE estimates had a +/- range of 8,100 years (!) for R1b estimation, as opposed to the 1,000 years of the Rho method, which matched pretty much exactly with older STR+SNP methods. So I'm not entirely clear why this 2013 update is making it sound like they are now taking GENETREE out to be the most correct method, and suggesting that we need to shift all of our old STR+SNP estimations to be older just so that they line up with it. It'll be interesting to see if this is convincing enough to have other experts change their methodology, and what comes from that if they do. I wouldn't get my hopes up about that, though.

Garrick
25-08-13, 01:25
According to Regueiro et al in Gene (2012) high levels of paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia (approximately 58%), in this percent was not included R1b (approximately 8% according to authors). Near eastern neolithic lineages (E and J subclades) are about 26,5%. It can be assumed that the people who inhabited Serbia in paleolithic, also inhabit today.

sparkey
26-08-13, 16:53
According to Regueiro et al in Gene (2012) high levels of paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia (approximately 58%), in this percent was not included R1b (approximately 8% according to authors). Near eastern neolithic lineages (E and J subclades) are about 26,5%. It can be assumed that the people who inhabited Serbia in paleolithic, also inhabit today.

Without reading the paper in-depth, they seem to have selected Y lineages as representative of the "Paleolithic" based on how old they seem to be in Europe (counting the Steppes in the case of R1a), not based on how old they seem to be in Serbia. High levels of Paleolithic European Y-DNA in Serbia does not imply that these lineages have been in Serbia since the Paleolithic, just that they were around Europe somewhere during the Paleolithic (probably) and are in Serbia now.

Garrick
26-08-13, 19:26
Without reading the paper in-depth, they seem to have selected Y lineages as representative of the "Paleolithic" based on how old they seem to be in Europe (counting the Steppes in the case of R1a), not based on how old they seem to be in Serbia. High levels of Paleolithic European Y-DNA in Serbia does not imply that these lineages have been in Serbia since the Paleolithic, just that they were around Europe somewhere during the Paleolithic (probably) and are in Serbia now.

No, authors are explicit (quote):

"The relatively old expansion time (14.0±3.3 KYA) (Supplementary Table 3), associated mean variance (0.384) and high haplotype diversity (0.9905±0.0178) (Table 1), also evident in the phylogenetic network (Supplementary Fig. 1C), among Serbian R1a1a-M198 carriers, are consistent with previous studies (Peričić et al., 2005; Semino et al., 2000; Wells et al., 2001) that suggest that the common ancestor for all R1a1a-M198 individuals in the Balkans existed in Paleolithic times. "

According to authors R1a (precisely R1a1a-M198) is very old in Serbia, and older from I branches (I1 and I2a) and all other today's haplogroups in the Serbia and Balkans.

sparkey
26-08-13, 19:37
No, authors are explicit (quote):

"The relatively old expansion time (14.0±3.3 KYA) (Supplementary Table 3), associated mean variance (0.384) and high haplotype diversity (0.9905±0.0178) (Table 1), also evident in the phylogenetic network (Supplementary Fig. 1C), among Serbian R1a1a-M198 carriers, are consistent with previous studies (Peričić et al., 2005; Semino et al., 2000; Wells et al., 2001) that suggest that the common ancestor for all R1a1a-M198 individuals in the Balkans existed in Paleolithic times. "

According to authors R1a (precisely R1a1a-M198) is very old in Serbia, and older from I branches (I1 and I2a) and all other today's haplogroups in the Serbia and Balkans.

They may be right about R1a, although I'm worried about it being a possible pooling point. Serbia is fairly close to the highest diversity areas of R1a, and expansion of R1a into Serbia quite possibly could have been by those who had high R1a diversity already. I won't say much more about R1a because I haven't studied it as close as many others.

Serbia is not close to having the highest diversity of I1 or I2a, though. Neither can be traced to the Paleolithic there. It's possible that regional Haplogroup I is a backmigration; in fact, I'd argue that it's very likely. But the temporal separation there must be quite large to match with phylogenetic patterns.

Garrick
26-08-13, 20:00
They may be right about R1a, although I'm worried about it being a possible pooling point. Serbia is fairly close to the highest diversity areas of R1a, and expansion of R1a into Serbia quite possibly could have been by those who had high R1a diversity already. I won't say much more about R1a because I haven't studied it as close as many others.

Serbia is not close to having the highest diversity of I1 or I2a, though. Neither can be traced to the Paleolithic there. It's possible that regional Haplogroup I is a backmigration; in fact, I'd argue that it's very likely. But the temporal separation there must be quite large to match with phylogenetic patterns.

I read that you wrote that I2a was 8,500 years ago. And Regueiro et al. attempted to determine the age of I2 in Serbia (quote):

"The high haplotype diversity of I2a2-P37.2/M423 lineages in Serbia (0.9977±0.0094) also supports the hypothesis that the P37.2 mutation has been present in the Balkans before the LGM (Rootsi et al., 2004; Semino et al., 2000). Moreover, the age of I2a2-M423 chromosomes in Serbs based on accumulated Y-STR variation, is ~9000 years ago (Table 1) and is consistent with previously reported time frames in the Early Holocene, during the European Mesolithic period (Battaglia et al., 2009; Peričić et al., 2005; Rootsi et al., 2004; Underhill et al., 2007). Our data corroborate the previous assertion by Battaglia et al. (2009) that the autochthonous haplogroup I2a2-M423 is indicative of the adoption of farming by Mesolithic hunter–gatherers in the Balkans."

sparkey
26-08-13, 20:47
I read that you wrote that I2a was 8,500 years ago. And Regueiro et al. attempted to determine the age of I2 in Serbia (quote):

"The high haplotype diversity of I2a2-P37.2/M423 lineages in Serbia (0.9977±0.0094) also supports the hypothesis that the P37.2 mutation has been present in the Balkans before the LGM (Rootsi et al., 2004; Semino et al., 2000). Moreover, the age of I2a2-M423 chromosomes in Serbs based on accumulated Y-STR variation, is ~9000 years ago (Table 1) and is consistent with previously reported time frames in the Early Holocene, during the European Mesolithic period (Battaglia et al., 2009; Peričić et al., 2005; Rootsi et al., 2004; Underhill et al., 2007). Our data corroborate the previous assertion by Battaglia et al. (2009) that the autochthonous haplogroup I2a2-M423 is indicative of the adoption of farming by Mesolithic hunter–gatherers in the Balkans."

OK, I found the paper (http://www.scribd.com/doc/82200261/Maria-Regueiro-Et-Al-High-Levels-of-Paleolithic-Y-Chromosome-Lineages-Characterize-Serbia), and found the culprit for these unusually high estimates for I2a-Din in the Balkans:


The age of microsatellite variation within haplogroups E, I and R was estimated as reported earlier by Zhivotovsky et al. (2004) and modified according to Sengupta et al. (2006).

I'm not familiar with the Sengupta method, but the Zhivotovsky method basically recommends tripling age estimates, so this paper actually comes pretty close to corroborating the Nordtvedt estimates if we reverse the Zhivotovsky adjustment. Additional difference (there's little) could come from the low number of STRs in this paper and the older mutation rate estimates.

Anyway, this doesn't invalidate the fact that Poland has the highest I2-L147.2 diversity. If it turns out that Zhivotovsky is right, then the likely backmigration happened earlier. But I think acceptance of Zhivotovsky is still a minority. Non-Zhivotovsky calculations have come closer to newer SNP-only estimates, for example. Some have been higher than Nordtvedt estimates, but usually at adjustments of about 1.1x, not 3x.

Edit: This also means that their conventional R1a age estimate is ~4700 YBP.

Garrick
27-08-13, 19:06
OK, I found the paper (http://www.scribd.com/doc/82200261/Maria-Regueiro-Et-Al-High-Levels-of-Paleolithic-Y-Chromosome-Lineages-Characterize-Serbia), and found the culprit for these unusually high estimates for I2a-Din in the Balkans:

I'm not familiar with the Sengupta method, but the Zhivotovsky method basically recommends tripling age estimates, so this paper actually comes pretty close to corroborating the Nordtvedt estimates if we reverse the Zhivotovsky adjustment. Additional difference (there's little) could come from the low number of STRs in this paper and the older mutation rate estimates.

Anyway, this doesn't invalidate the fact that Poland has the highest I2-L147.2 diversity. If it turns out that Zhivotovsky is right, then the likely backmigration happened earlier. But I think acceptance of Zhivotovsky is still a minority. Non-Zhivotovsky calculations have come closer to newer SNP-only estimates, for example. Some have been higher than Nordtvedt estimates, but usually at adjustments of about 1.1x, not 3x.

Edit: This also means that their conventional R1a age estimate is ~4700 YBP.

It is not easy to grasp movements that occurred thousands of years ago. Your contribution to these complex topics deserves high respect.

A lot of scientists claim that R1a in Serbia and Balkans is Paleolithic, and their serious scientific research cannot be neglected. Their papers were published in relevant scientific journals. Certainly on the methods can be argued but it is clear that strict scientific findings cannot be ignored. Is R1a in Serbia and Balkans 20,000 years ago, 10,000 years or younger, the fact is that it is very old.

Reguiero et al. (2012) write (quote):

“Three major episodes of gene flow have been described to explain the high R1a haplotype diversity in the Balkans: (1) re-colonization from the refugium in the Ukraine (early post-LGM, ~20–12 KYA) (Passarino et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2000); (2) migrations from the Pontic steppe associated with the Indo-European Kurgan culture (3000–1000 B.C.) (Rosser et al., 2000; Semino et al., 2000); and, more recently, (3) the massive Slavic migration (5th–7th centuries) (Barać et al., 2003; Peričić et al., 2005).”

According authors first expansion R1a in the Balkans was between 20,000 and 12,000 years ago. Prior to the researches performed in the Balkans and published studies about haplogroups there were those who thought that the R1a first time came to the Balkans in the fifth century BC with the expansion of Slavs. We can all agree that it was a mistake.

sparkey
27-08-13, 19:26
It is not easy to grasp movements that occurred thousands of years ago. Your contribution to these complex topics deserves high respect.

And thank you for bringing the study to my attention and challenging my assumptions. This is productive.


A lot of scientists claim that R1a in Serbia and Balkans is Paleolithic, and their serious scientific research cannot be neglected. Their papers were published in relevant scientific journals. Certainly on the methods can be argued but it is clear that strict scientific findings cannot be ignored. Is R1a in Serbia and Balkans 20,000 years ago, 10,000 years or younger, the fact is that it is very old.
...
According authors first expansion R1a in the Balkans was between 20,000 and 12,000 years ago. Prior to the researches performed in the Balkans and published studies about haplogroups there were those who thought that the R1a first time came to the Balkans in the fifth century BC with the expansion of Slavs. We can all agree that it was a mistake.

As mentioned, non-Zhivotovsky estimates using this study has a lower than 10k year estimate by a lot, but not so much to suggest that the R1a in the Balkans is the result of an expansion out of a single lineage from the Slavs. The R1a in the Balkans isn't necessarily Paleolithic (I can't construct that scenario with the younger estimate), but it seems clear that it's older than the Slavs, layered, or pooled.

Noman
27-08-13, 21:55
Let me say this, I'm personally quite torn regarding I2a-Din. Generally, the idea that Haplogroup I as a whole is Paleolithic/Mesolithic in Europe is almost certain at this point. However, wether the I2a peak in the western Balkans is ancient or the result of a more recent founder effect, I'm quite divided on and I have come to no conclusion to this for myself.



Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

Evidence says to me r1a has always been right where it is. How can you say it's not always been there without providing an example of something there in the same place before it was. What a joke.