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sparkey
27-08-13, 23:58
Evidence says to me r1a has always been right where it is. How can you say it's not always been there without providing an example of something there in the same place before it was. What a joke.

"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

Garrick
28-08-13, 00:54
"Right where it is?" Like Sweden? India? The United States?

OK, I get what you mean--Eastern Europe, with high concentrations in Balto-Slavs and some others. I do think that R1a (or at least R1a1a) has its MRCA location in or around the Eurasian Steppe, so Eastern Europe could have very ancient R1a indeed. The Balkans aren't exactly at the epicenter of that region, though, so it is likely younger there. One tricky thing about the Balkans is that it isn't entirely clear what its late Paleolithic composition was. If it was mainly I2, as many suggest, then the I2 presence there collapsed and then came back via its Western descendants. I think "not enough data to say for sure" is a valid response.

In Serbia dominant haplogroup is I. According Mirabal et al. (2010) I2a2 is 38,5%, I1 is 7,8% and I2b1 is 1,67%. I assumed that I2a2 (or perhaps I1) is the oldest haplogroup in Serbia and region but science says it is R1a. Although Regueiro et al. (2012), claim that I2a2 is old in Serbia about 9000 years, it is less than R1a for which authors claim that it is the 20,000-12,000 years ago. And other authors, for example Klyosov, claim that R1a is very old in Serbia (more than 10,000 years).

Possible that you’re right, that Balkan I2a2 had wrong way. Although for me is very unusual that all I bearers left the Balkans and then some back from North and East most in the form of I2a2. And it is very unusual link between R1a and I2a2. Serbs and Upper Macedonians (and slightly less Bosniacs) are quite different from Slavic population (Croats and Slovenes are much closer, first of all to Ukrainians), but they speak South Slavic language. It is big mystery. Serbs and Upper Macedonians are very Balkans people, perhaps most typical Balkan people watching haplogroups, which is not surprising as they are in the center of the Balkan Peninsula.

Eldritch
28-08-13, 11:13
R1a indeed could be old in Balkans, according to FTDNA project there's some Old European R1a found in Greece and Macedonia.

I2a1b on the other hand isn't old in the region and most likely got there with Slavic invasions.

Ike
28-08-13, 12:56
You think I2a1b got in Balkans with the latest Slavic invasion of ~ 600 AD? Deviations suggest that?

Garrick
28-08-13, 14:11
R1a indeed could be old in Balkans, according to FTDNA project there's some Old European R1a found in Greece and Macedonia.

I2a1b on the other hand isn't old in the region and most likely got there with Slavic invasions.

It is probably that R1a is the oldest in Balkans. Klyosov (2009) claims that R1a can be old in Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia (today’s FYROM or Upper Macedonia) and Bosnia 11,650 +-1,550 years. According Regueiro et al. (2012) R1a in Serbia can be 20,000-12,000 years old.

But I2a2 (or newer nomenclature I2a1b) is mystery because carriers of I haplogroup had very unusual roads. It would be logical that haplogroup I is the oldest in the Balkan, but for some reason that we don’t know, the oldest carriers of I haplogroup has no in the Balkans. Or we still lack some knowledge to arrange a mosaic.

According to Regueiro et al. (2012, Gene) I2a2 (I2a1b) is about 9,000 years old in Serbia. You claim it is 1,500 years. Maybe authors are right, maybe no, but what is certain is that further researches are needed.

gyms
22-09-13, 14:56
It is probably that R1a is the oldest in Balkans. Klyosov (2009) claims that R1a can be old in Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia (today’s FYROM or Upper Macedonia) and Bosnia 11,650 +-1,550 years. According Regueiro et al. (2012) R1a in Serbia can be 20,000-12,000 years old.

But I2a2 (or newer nomenclature I2a1b) is mystery because carriers of I haplogroup had very unusual roads. It would be logical that haplogroup I is the oldest in the Balkan, but for some reason that we don’t know, the oldest carriers of I haplogroup has no in the Balkans. Or we still lack some knowledge to arrange a mosaic.

According to Regueiro et al. (2012, Gene) I2a2 (I2a1b) is about 9,000 years old in Serbia. You claim it is 1,500 years. Maybe authors are right, maybe no, but what is certain is that further researches are needed.I am I2a2-DinS.Is this slavic?
Admix Results: (Dodekad K7b Oracle-X Population Fitting)



#
Population
Percent


1
South_Asian
0.00


2
West_Asian
16.61


3
Siberian
1.72


4
African
0.00


5
Southern
19.37


6
Atlantic_Baltic
60.53


7
East_Asian
1.77




Pct. Calc. Option 2



1
Hungarians
59.29%


2
Finnish
11.10%


3
Yemen_Jews
9.79%


4
Lithuanians
7.92%


5
Cypriots
7.53%


6
Romanians
2.17%


7
Tu
1.09%


8
Korean
1.08%


9
Sephardic_Jews
0.02%


10
Uygur
0.01%

Sile
28-10-13, 06:53
an article about homeland of slavs.......again, south belarussia and northern ukraine ............from Polish and Russian discussion

all Slavic populations constitute a mixture of three major components (R1a-M458, R1a-Z280 and I2a-Din) and it is obvious that the putative expansion of the Early Slavs from their hypothetical homeland (likely encompassing Southern Belarus and NW Ukraine where those three Y-DNA components show the most balanced frequencies) would lead to some significant differences in their relative frequencies at the particular end points of their journey, especially when these Early Slavs constituted a mixture of some smaller tribes that were sharing a common language and culture but their genetic background could have beeen quite different. Thus, they ended up with the R1a-M458 clade showing the highest frequency among the Western Slavs, R1a-Z280 dominating among the Eastern Slavs and I2a-Din being most frequent among the Southern Slavs. Actually, it would be almost impossible to maintain exactly the same original composition of all those Y-DNA components in every Slavic subpopulation.

I figure the I2a-Din is L69 branch

Ike
28-10-13, 14:34
I don't see that as much of an argument. Where three frequencies are balanced now days means nothing. We can't even know if they were balanced at the beginning.

adamo
28-10-13, 16:57
So Sile; your hypothesis is hg I1a waited out the LGM in the Iberian peninsula then moved to Central Europe first and then to Scandinavia. Probably somewhere near Germany one branch split off and went towards Belarussia/Poland then from this original Slavic homeland R1a and I2a lineages poured at the same time south and eastwards with the r1a more ending up across all the Eastern Europe and i2a being the Slavic marker that decided to heavily colonize more the Balkans region.....I doubt it.

Shetop
24-12-13, 22:46
Seems to be significant for the discussion, check page 27: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-3.pdf

james stock
25-12-13, 03:04
Seems to be significant for the discussion, check page 27: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-3.pdf



Population Genetic and Craniometric Characterization of an Avar Period Individual from Croatia

Matthew D Teasdale, Noreen von CramonTaubadel, Eppie R Jones, Mario Šlaus, Russell L McLaughlin, Daniel G Bradley, Ron Pinhasi

The Avars were a Eurasian equestrian population that migrated from the East to Europe where they settled in the general area of the Carpathian basin and established a kingdom that lasted from the 6th to the 9th century AD (Curta 2006; Curta and Kovalev 2008). The Avars had a rich material culture, which has allowed for the tracking of their migrations and the subsequent assimilation of local populations as they became more sedentary (Sinor 1990; Curta and Kovalev 2008). These archaeological resources make the Avars an appropriate population for the study of early medieval population movements. Next generation sequencing (NGS) (Metzker 2009) has revolutionized the field of ancient DNA, by providing the ability to rapidly sequence thousands of ancestry informative genetic markers in archaeological samples. These markers can then be used to compare ancient samples to modern reference populations of known geographic origin (SanchezQuinto et al. 2012; Skoglund et al. 2012). The assessment of an ancient populations affinities and variability based on craniometric data is commonplace in biological anthropology (von CramonTaubadel and Pinhasi 2011; Pinhasi and von CramonTaubadel 2012), however thus far no study has combined both NGS genetic and craniometric analyses. In this paper we present the results of a combined genetic/craniometric analysis to characterise the affinity of an Avar period individual from Croatia with excellent osteological preservation. Preliminary results from both of these analyses suggest that this individual shares a closer relationship with modern day European populations than those of the proposed Avar homeland in central Asia.


So what we get from this is that there was a male living in Hvar, Croatia around 500AD that was haplogroup Q. It would be nice to see where he fell within European autosomal DNA, and it is not surprising at all that he does not fall within central Asian DNA.

Shetop
25-12-13, 08:25
Population Genetic and Craniometric Characterization of an Avar Period Individual from Croatia

So what we get from this is that there was a male living in Hvar, Croatia around 500AD that was haplogroup Q.



How do you know it was haplogroup Q?
I don't think that info is correct.

james stock
25-12-13, 18:52
How do you know it was haplogroup Q?
I don't think that info is correct.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know the haplogroup, my mistake. I thought I saw someone say it was haplogroup Q on another website but I must have misread it.

gyms
13-02-14, 12:12
Yes.All I2a people was geneticists.

Aristocephalic
24-04-14, 20:38
Well Dale, I am terribly sorry, I do not know what your source is, but this view regarding Haplogroups R1a/R1b is hopelessly outdated. We know for sure now that both R1a and R1b entered Europe significantly later than the end of the last ice age. The oldest occurence known thus far of R1a in Europe is from a site near Eulau, Germany, which dates back to the Corded Ware Culture (circa 2600 BC). The oldest find of R1b in Europe (thus far!) is from Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany, which dates into the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). Both the Neolithic sites of France (Treilles) and Germany (Derenburg) yielded no R1a or R1b what so ever.

There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

bicicleur
24-04-14, 21:33
There's been no ancient r1a or r1b found in west asia though, either.

well there is the r1a Andronovo, but that is rather central asia than west asia
is there any ancient dna tested in west asia ?

skaheen15
16-05-14, 12:24
The Sarmatian idea is very appealing to me personally, and I have seen numerous examples cited of Serbo-Croatian words, including the Croatian endonym itself, of supposed Iranic derivation, ditto for certain regional customs. But the Paleolithic continuity theory probably makes the most sense, all things considered. I realize that I2a-Din is a young subclade, but could it not have evolved in situ in the Balkans, from an older clade? Admittedly I haven't read through this entire thread, so this idea has probably been dismissed for reasons that I'm entirely ignorant of.

Shetop
17-05-14, 21:10
I realize that I2a-Din is a young subclade, but could it not have evolved in situ in the Balkans, from an older clade?

It could not.
There is no sensible explanation how did I2a-Din made its way to Northern Russia, but it could not make it to Italy. Absurdity of such an assumption is amplified with the argument that such a young clade migrations would have to be well described by some known historical events or processes. And there are no such.

motzart
17-05-14, 22:21
This is a good thread but it spans 3 years and we have so much more data now than then.

I have leaned towards paleolithic continuity, for the simple reason that some of the oldest Y DNA we have found in Europe has been I2a1b. As to explain the absence in Italy my guess was that the Alps were glacial at the time I2a Din was expanding making Italy inaccessible, and by the time they WERE accessible the area was already inhabited by G2a which expanded into Italy along the Mediterranean from Greece preventing a significant expansion. This theory has a lot of problems though, mainly the distribution of the Cardium Pottery Culture, which seems to have been spread by G2a into Europe, but exists in Croatia/Bosnia where we see little G2a and the highest I2a1b. So it would be in one area a cultural diffusion and in one area the result of migration..? Doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in Sardinia, Autosomally Sardinia is mostly EEF with little WHG, yet on the other hand the Motala/Lochsbur men we are using as the yardstick for WHG are I2a1...

The Slav explanation I see as the worst and most nonsensical, there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

Sile
17-05-14, 22:26
This is a good thread but it spans 3 years and we have so much more data now than then.

I have leaned towards paleolithic continuity, for the simple reason that some of the oldest Y DNA we have found in Europe has been I2a1b. As to explain the absence in Italy my guess was that the Alps were glacial at the time I2a Din was expanding making Italy inaccessible, and by the time they WERE accessible the area was already inhabited by G2a which expanded into Italy along the Mediterranean from Greece preventing a significant expansion. This theory has a lot of problems though, mainly the distribution of the Cardium Pottery Culture, which seems to have been spread by G2a into Europe, but exists in Croatia/Bosnia where we see little G2a and the highest I2a1b. So it would be in one area a cultural diffusion and in one area the result of migration..? Doesn't make sense.

What also doesn't make sense is the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in Sardinia, Autosomally Sardinia is mostly EEF with little WHG, yet on the other hand the Motala/Lochsbur men we are using as the yardstick for WHG are I2a1...

The Slav explanation I see as the worst and most nonsensical, there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

Shetop
17-05-14, 22:48
there would have to be more R1a if this was the case.

Why is that?

motzart
17-05-14, 22:56
Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

I did not know this, less evidence for paleolithic continuity. One thing I do believe strongly is that the origin point for all the I2 subclades has to be Bavaria, at some point pre LGM there had to have been a population explosion there. Each and every one of the I2 clades is found very near there in high frequencies overlapping.

skaheen15
18-05-14, 07:26
Another thing need explaining ...............since the northern part of the adriatic sea did not exist and Italy and the balkans where joined as far south as modern Ancona, then why is there very little of this marker in the northern and central Italy if its a balkan marker?

Isn't that a moot point, though, considering that I2a Din is less than 3,000 years old?

Ike
18-05-14, 18:07
Where from did you get the data about the "exact" age?

motzart
18-05-14, 20:59
I think if not Paleolithic continuity then the best explanation is that it was spread by the Gothic tribes. M26 being Visigoth, M423 being Ostrogoth. If you know the history of the Goths well you know that they migrated en masse from Far Eastern Europe south of the Danube to escape the Huns, eventually settling in Pannonia. This matches perfectly the hot spots of I2a1 in the Balkans (South of the Danube, in the Ostrogothic Kingdom we find the highest frequencies of I2a1). It also explains I2a1 in western Ukraine North of the Danube.

Visigoths were granted land in the Aquitaine, homeland of the Basques, which is where we see another hotspot of I2a1 in an otherwise relatively homogenous R1b group. The Visigoths also conquered Sardinia which explains the high frequency of I2a1 M26 in the Region with it being a relatively homogenous EEF group autosomally. The Goths were likely already drifted from the makeup of Lochsbur/Motala, contributed less WHG to the overall makeup of Sardinia.

We know that I2a1b existed in Sweden (Gotaland) in the Mesolithic (Motala), the history of the Goths states that they migrated out of Scandinavia through Eastern Europe and established a kingdom in Dacia (Now Western Ukraine/Romania north of the Danube). This matches the Distribution of I2a1 perfectly.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Gothic_raids_in_the_3rd_century.jpg

6436

skaheen15
18-05-14, 21:26
Where from did you get the data about the "exact" age?

"Less than 3,000 years old" is hardly exact, but, to answer your question, everything I've read gives estimates between 1,900 and 3,000 years before present. It's recent origin is part of the puzzle, if I'm not mistaken.

motzart
20-05-14, 01:26
I found this excellent post on another forum I wanted to bring here. Pretty compelling, especially considering the Mesolithic I2a1b finds in Motala. This user seems to be against a Scandinavian origin but I think the Lochsbur/Motala finds support it.

DNA associated with the Germanic Goths

Hi everyone,
in his recent spread map Dr. Ken Nordtvedt “himself” locates the start of the I2a2a Dinarics, from now on, namley around the middle course of the Vistula. Which is modern day Pomerania.

Estimated age: about 2500 years ago. see google: Tree and Map for Hg I pdf

Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago:
I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

It is well testified, that 2000 years ago, the Vistula area were still part of Germania. And the Wielbark culture, (mainly associated with the Goths, as well as the Rugii, Heruli, Gepids and other Germanic tribes) appeared also in the Vistula area about the same time period like the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric. The Wielbark culture also had a sudden expansion out of the Vistula, not much more than 2000 years ago. Spreading out into the same directions like the I2a2a Dinarics in Ken Nordtvedts new spread map. Although his spread map is schematic, it shows unequivocally and absolutely clear a huge expansion from the north into the southeast of Europe and the Balkan area.

The first movments of the slavic people, appear centuries later. Moving slowly from the southeast to the northwest of Europe. (Peter Heather, “Barbarians and Empires”). But the Gothic people moved the other way around, exactly the same way like the I2a2a Dinarics in reference to the spread map from Dr. Ken Nordtvedt. Concerning I2a2a Dinaric, no ethnics of people, in that number, at that time and particular place, could come into question, other than the Germanics and Gothic tribes. This is the only plausible explanation. The Goths as well as the I2a2a Dinarics, demonstrating a huge sudden expansion at the same time, moving in the same directions into the southeast of Europe. I can not see anything slavic in this group, because of the relationship between I2a2a Dinarics, I2a2a Disles and I2a2a Isles in Britain.

“Familytreedna administration 2012:
Dear I2a Project members:
We are happy to announce that all known I2a men can be placed in one of these five subgroups:
I2a1 (also called I-M26, nicknamed "Sardinian")
I2a2 (also called I-M423, includes "Dinaric", "Disles" and "Isles")
I2a3 (now called I-L1286, includes "Alpine" group, and the I-L233 groups "Western" and "Western Isles")
I2a4 (also called I-L880, nicknamed "Northern France")
I2a5 (also called I-L1294, nicknamed "France")

At this point, let us not forget the relationship between I2a and I2b in general. Basically you can claim, that pretty much all I2a2a Dinaric members in todays eastern Europe are culturally slavic people! But, they display ethnically Gothic/Germanic roots. Most of recent published maps about the migration of Germanic tribes, show the movment of the Goths and how they left their traces mainly in eastern Europe. Most of modern historians and scientific up-to-date maps show that the Goths did not come from Scandinavia. That was a long time legende from Jordanes. But if they are not originated from Scandinavia, would explain the lack of I2a2a Dinarics in Scandinavia. This means the Goths do not necessarily need to have a lot of I1a. The Goths left their DNA mainly in eastern Europe as we can clearly retrace. And very little in Germany except Thuringa and Hesse. (“Heike Grahn-Hoek”)

Most people, until now, are still strongly convinced that haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric must be of slavic origin, because of it´s high presence in eastern Europe and the Balkan areas. It was a logical conclusion, in the first point of view. But now we can see on the new map, that the origin of I2a2a Dinaric is not the Balkan area. It is roughly what is todays Poland. That makes a big difference. Peter Heather the modern day historian and expert of the Goths wrote something very interesting in this connection in his last published book (Empires and Barbarians) concerning the slavic expansion:
The Slavs came primary from the southeast and moved slowly sometimes even step by step to the west. But not all Germanic settlements were left when the Slavs moved into the northwest in the 6th century. There were still many farmers and familys in their Germanic homelands. The slavic people took over and the Germanics, have been assimilated by the arrivng slavic population. And the slavic language became the dominat one in these areas. (The Crimea might be an exception. It seems there was a gothic dialect spoken until the 17th century.)
This absorption or assimilation-process happend amazingly peaceful. At least, at the begin of the slavic expansion. Without these Germanic settlers, the slavic empire could have never reached the size as it is, in that short period of time, says Heather.

The Goths and Rugii did not just come with an conquering army to eastern Europe. They came with their entire people. Thousends and thousends of woman and children, farmers and warriors spread all across eastern Europe and the Balkan area.

They marched off to Belarus, conquer and settle in Moldavia and Romania (Dacia). They settled and established a powerful state in Dacia. Sacking Greece (Athens, Sparta) and even Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete were targets of their attacks. Battles in Turkey (Adrianople). Occupation of Albania 489-535.
Also Settlements in western Hungary (Pannonia). 255 The Goths invade Macedonia. Taking over Moesia (Bulgaria) later known as the Moesian Goths. Ulfilias made the Gothic translation of the Bible for them. Raids in Belgrade, just to name a few well testyfied operations in the east. Bosnia was under the control of Theodoric the Great and his Ostrogothic Kingdom between 490-535. Dr. G. Rus, professor at the University of Liubljana, was taking detailed studys of Croatian and Bosnian origins. Professor Rus had proved that there were two large Gothic migrations into Bosnia and Croatia (Dalmatia). See the most recent map of germanic migrations below. The Goths and their Wielbark cousins were nearly all over eastern Europe. The Ostrogothic kingdom under Thoderic the Great was huge.

That´s why we still see most of I2a2a Dinarics in eastern Europe and the Balkan area today. Of course, we do have some I2a2a Dinaric members from italy as well. Check the Familytreedna I2a project.
(The sack of Rome, The Battle of Mons Lactarius near Naples, Ravenna the Ostogothic kingdom).
We also have members from Austria and Bavaria.They recently discovered the biggest Ostrogothic cemetery,more than 400 graves, ever found, at a place called Hemmaberg in Austria. The roman military brought a lot of gothic auxiliaries to the British isles, see Gloucester Goth. We do have I2a2 Dinaric members from the British Isles as well. Even the germanic Heruli (also Wielbark culture) came in two huge waves to the Aegean sea. The Rugii (Wielbark culture) have a strong conection to the Rus (Rugii-Rusyn-Rus-Ruthenen). After 900 AD all nordic people in eastern Europe were called Rus, not only swedish varangians. See and check: “Familytreedna Carpatho-Rusyn DNA project” there are many I2a2a Dinaric members north as well as south.

Most I2a2a Dinaric members, are from Pomerania and the Ukraine. It is not surprising. Pomerania was the homeland of the Goths and the Ukraine their biggest settlement after the great migration. But a great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain, it was basically their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. In Spain the Goths ruled over a huge area but provide only a small Gothic leadership, with their capital in Toledo. Wich was wiped out by the arabian conquest in the 8th century.
But after all, a few Goths from their Pomerian homelands survived in Spain. We can genetically trace back the Goths even into today's iberian peninsula. You can see the I2a2a Dinarics in the Familytreedna New Mexico project. All members have spanish ancestry and interestingly, they all belong to I2a2a Dinaric “north”. None of them is Diaric south.

Familytreedna New Mexico project:
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-15 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Gallegos Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Martinez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Herrera Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torrez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 13 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30

The Goths had certainly more Y-DNA haplogroups then just I2a2a Dinaric, (likely R1a??? We dont´t know yet). But I2a2a Dinaric is the most obvious of all,
matching the Gothic people. So far, this haplogroup is the only comprehensible one. The only one striking so clear, because of the young estimated age.
We see enough evidence for a very strong connection between the Wielbark and Chernyakhov cultures (Goths, Rugii etc.) and the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric.

Here is some mtdna from the Wilbark culture. (Unfortunately Y-DNA is very fragile and does not last very long).

Juras 2012:
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD H5 7028C, 16304C
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD H 7028C, CRS
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD W 2 samples 8251A, 16223T, 16292T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD W 8251A, 16192T, 16223T, 16292T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD U5b 7768G 16192T, 16270T
Wielbark Poland Kowalewko 0-300 AD U3 12308G, 14139G, 16343G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 5 7028C, CRS
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 7028C, 16093C, 16129A, 16316G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H5 7028C, 16153A, 16304C,
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 2 samples of 7028C, 16183C, 16189C
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD H 7028C, 16129A
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD J2a 10398G 16069T, 16126C, 16145A, 16231C, 16261T, 16299G
Wielbark Poland Rogowo 100-200 AD T2b 16126C, 16294T, 16296T, 16304C

Best wishes Claus

Attachments http://eng.molgen.org/download/file.php?id=311&t=1&sid=13b6a1791fb71f4719337842be473245 (http://eng.molgen.org/download/file.php?id=311&sid=13b6a1791fb71f4719337842be473245&mode=view)

sparkey
20-05-14, 02:45
I think if not Paleolithic continuity then the best explanation is that it was spread by the Gothic tribes. M26 being Visigoth, M423 being Ostrogoth. If you know the history of the Goths well you know that they migrated en masse from Far Eastern Europe south of the Danube to escape the Huns, eventually settling in Pannonia. This matches perfectly the hot spots of I2a1 in the Balkans (South of the Danube, in the Ostrogothic Kingdom we find the highest frequencies of I2a1). It also explains I2a1 in western Ukraine North of the Danube.

The temporal aspect is missing from your analysis here. Why should we think that the Visigoths and Ostrogoths did not share subclades that split about 20,000 years ago? Surely the division between Visigoths and Ostrogoths is not so old.


We know that I2a1b existed in Sweden (Gotaland) in the Mesolithic (Motala), the history of the Goths states that they migrated out of Scandinavia through Eastern Europe and established a kingdom in Dacia (Now Western Ukraine/Romania north of the Danube). This matches the Distribution of I2a1 perfectly.

Again, the temporal aspect makes no sense here. The Motala3/12 samples were on the M423 branch of I2, but since they were not apparently on a modern branch, they could have been nearly 20,000 years removed (or to take an average, probably about 15,000 years removed) from the modern branches. So what could they possibly have to say about an expansion that happened less that 3,000 years ago? At most, I see them informing us that I2a1b is a broadly Northern European clade... but that's no more evidence for the Goths than it is for the Slavs in the particular case of I2a-Din.


Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned, a while ago:
I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

It is well testified, that 2000 years ago, the Vistula area were still part of Germania. And the Wielbark culture, (mainly associated with the Goths, as well as the Rugii, Heruli, Gepids and other Germanic tribes) appeared also in the Vistula area about the same time period like the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric. The Wielbark culture also had a sudden expansion out of the Vistula, not much more than 2000 years ago... The first movments of the slavic people, appear centuries later.

This is an overinterpretation of Nordtvedt's "not much more than 2000 years ago" comment. Sure, the Slavic expansions were more recent than that, but it's also true that they were not more than 2000 years ago. The 2000 years ago figure is from a rough estimate of the age of I2a-Din, which is our limiting factor in the spread of I2a-Din, of course. Naturally, populations can have an age of greater than 0 for a given haplogroup they carry immediately before an expansion.


Moving slowly from the southeast to the northwest of Europe. (Peter Heather, “Barbarians and Empires”). But the Gothic people moved the other way around, exactly the same way like the I2a2a Dinarics in reference to the spread map from Dr. Ken Nordtvedt. Concerning I2a2a Dinaric, no ethnics of people, in that number, at that time and particular place, could come into question, other than the Germanics and Gothic tribes. This is the only plausible explanation. The Goths as well as the I2a2a Dinarics, demonstrating a huge sudden expansion at the same time, moving in the same directions into the southeast of Europe.

First of all, it's nonsensical to use Nordtvedt's schematic with no temporal reference when we have good diversity analyses of I2a-Din which look closely at outliers and hotspots. Secondly, a strictly SE->NW migration of Slavs is a minority view, to put it charitably.


I can not see anything slavic in this group, because of the relationship between I2a2a Dinarics, I2a2a Disles and I2a2a Isles in Britain.

What do 6,000 to 10,000 years-removed cousin clades to I2a-Din have to do with whether or not I2a-Din is Slavic? Is that seriously when we're dating the Slavic ethnogenesis?


Most I2a2a Dinaric members, are from Pomerania and the Ukraine.

Uh, no. Ukraine has a lot of diversity and pretty high frequency, but Pomerania? Huh?

motzart
20-05-14, 04:27
I've done a lot of reading today and I have some studies/maps/historical references I can post as reference material to all of this but I'll give a brief overview until I get time to write it up properly.

1. I2a1a & I2a1b both originate in Sweden 10-15k years ago, L621(M423) and M26 originate sometime later.

2. In accordance with Gothic legend there is a great migration from Sweden sometime prior to 750 B.C. We then see a founder effect in 3 of the easternmost Germanic Tribes.

3. M26 Settles in Northern Germany and later becomes the tribe to be known as the Vandals.

4. In accordance with Gothic legend L621 gradually migrates south settling finally in Western Ukraine.

5. The Vandals invade the roman empire and establish their kingdom. Vandals are responsible for the M26 found everywhere in their kingdom, Iberia, Sardinia, North Africa ect.

6. The Goths migrate en masse south of the Danube to escape the invading Huns. Leaving their lands North of the Danube but not entirely. Spreading to all Balkan countries south of the Danube. Settling in Pannonia/Dalmatia south of the Danube in accordance with the Ostrogothic Kingdom.

7. Visigoths spread L621 to Iberia, not a lot found there but it has been found. Their impact significantly less than the Vandals.

Ike
20-05-14, 05:59
Would that mean that Balkan clade of I2 are mosly Slavicized Ostrogoths?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-P5YoE5Ei6Qs/T1zqmdY_jZI/AAAAAAAAC7w/uelOGAk08BA/s1600/europe+mig.jpg

http://www-it.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/courses/rtd/old/bg/prabqlgari/bul/Empire_of_the_Huns.gif

Shetop
20-05-14, 07:45
Correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations in the Balkans is very high.
Gothic language can't be found in the Balkans, not even in traces.

I2a1b has been the most numerous haplogroup in the Balkans for centuries. If it is of Gothic origin, how come several Paleo-Balkan languages have survived Slavic invasion but Gothic was clinically swept away?

The way I see it there are strong arguments against every theory which explains I2a1b origin in the Balkans, except the theory of Slavic expansion.
So maybe someone should try to tell us, what is wrong about the Slavic theory? WHY NOT SLAVS?

Sile
20-05-14, 08:48
Correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations in the Balkans is very high.
Gothic language can't be found in the Balkans, not even in traces.

I2a1b has been the most numerous haplogroup in the Balkans for centuries. If it is of Gothic origin, how come several Paleo-Balkan languages have survived Slavic invasion but Gothic was clinically swept away?

The way I see it there are strong arguments against every theory which explains I2a1b origin in the Balkans, except the theory of Slavic expansion.
So maybe someone should try to tell us, what is wrong about the Slavic theory? WHY NOT SLAVS?

same way as illyrian language is missing, celt language in the alps, venetic language in Italy, Raetic language in the alp, trojan language in anatolia etc etc ...........I do not see your point!

I can say, in reverse to your statement.............if a language exist today in an area, then these people are not the original ancient people of that area

Shetop
20-05-14, 08:57
same way as illyrian language is missing, celt language in the alps, venetic language in Italy, Raetic language in the alp, trojan language in anatolia etc etc ...........I do not see your point!

There is a big difference. Today there are significant leftovers in those same regions, from the most of the languages you have written above.
And as I have written, Gothic leftovers don't exist in the Balkans, not even as a trace.

And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge.

So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?

LeBrok
20-05-14, 09:12
Correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations in the Balkans is very high.
Gothic language can't be found in the Balkans, not even in traces.

I2a1b has been the most numerous haplogroup in the Balkans for centuries. If it is of Gothic origin, how come several Paleo-Balkan languages have survived Slavic invasion but Gothic was clinically swept away?

The way I see it there are strong arguments against every theory which explains I2a1b origin in the Balkans, except the theory of Slavic expansion.
So maybe someone should try to tell us, what is wrong about the Slavic theory? WHY NOT SLAVS?
Exactly, even the age of I2a-Dinaric goes in hand with age of Slavic expansion.

motzart
20-05-14, 09:27
Perhaps if we spent 5 minutes researching an opinion before posting it on this board the level of discussion would be a little better.

since it seems LeBrok et all is incapable of using google/wikipedia I will provide you the text from the Gothic Language page here

Gothic is an extinct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_language) Germanic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_language) that was spoken by the Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths). It is known primarily from the Codex Argenteus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Argenteus), a 6th-century copy of a 4th-century Bible translation, and is the only East Germanic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_languages) with a sizable text corpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_corpus). All others, including Burgundian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_language_%28Germanic%29) and Vandalic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalic_language), are known, if at all, only from proper names that survived in historical accounts, and from loanwords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword) in other languages such as Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language), Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language) and French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language).
As a Germanic language, Gothic is a part of the Indo-European language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) family. It is the earliest Germanic language that is attested in any sizable texts, but lacks any modern descendants. The oldest documents in Gothic date back to the 4th century. The language was in decline by the mid-6th century, due, in part, to the military defeat of the Goths at the hands of the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks), the elimination of the Goths in Italy, and geographic isolation (in Spain the Gothic language lost its last and probably already declining function as a church language when the Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) converted to Catholicism in 589).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language#cite_note-2) The language survived as a domestic language in the Iberian peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula) (modern Spain and Portugal) as late as the 8th century, and in the lower Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) area and in isolated mountain regions in Crimea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea) apparently as late as the early 9th century. Gothic-seeming terms found in later (post-9th century) manuscripts may not belong to the same language.

The existence of such early attested corpora makes it a language of considerable interest in comparative linguistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_linguistics).


Influence The reconstructed Proto-Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic) language features several apparent borrowed words (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_borrowings) from East Germanic (presumably Gothic).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language#cite_note-12)

gyms
20-05-14, 09:28
"And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge"
What do you mean?

Shetop
20-05-14, 10:06
"And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge"
What do you mean?

In the Balkans, all nationalities which have more than 16% I2a1b use Slavic language.
And opposite from that, all that have less than 16% are not Slavic (In the Balkans).

Shetop
20-05-14, 10:12
The language survived as a domestic language in the Iberian peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula) (modern Spain and Portugal) as late as the 8th century, and in the lower Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) area

Please provide more details.



The reconstructed Proto-Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic) language features several apparent borrowed words (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_borrowings) from East Germanic (presumably Gothic).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language#cite_note-12)

Proto-Slavic does not exist any more.


WHY NOT SLAVS?

mihaitzateo
20-05-14, 10:40
In the Balkans, all nationalities which have more than 16% I2a1b use Slavic language.
And opposite from that, all that have less than 16% are not Slavic (In the Balkans).

Well Romania has more than 16% I2a1b and does not use a Slavic language.
Besides,South Slavic languages are not that closed to Eastern Slavic ,neither to West Slavic,for example,highest mutual intelligibility between a South Slavic language and an Eastern Slavic ,is between Bulgarian and Russian,about 75% common words.
I know that between Romanian and French there is 75% mutual intelligibility and I can not understand French,unless I learn it.
So I do not think you can treat Slavic speakers as a common ethnic people,for example Bulgarian folklore and so on is not closed to Russian folklore.
Russians do not have I2ab1 at high percentages,in lots of region.Same with Belarus.
I do not say that is not possible that some Slavic speakers tribes had some significant percentage of I2a1b,but that does not mean that "Slavs brought I2a1b in Balkans".

Shetop
20-05-14, 10:55
Well Romania has more than 16% I2a1b and does not use a Slavic language.

Romania is not in the Balkans.
Also it is a kind of a special case, which requires its own detailed analysis. I assume many have read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_influence_on_Romanian

gyms
20-05-14, 13:24
The Balkan Peninsula, popularly referred to as the Balkans, is a geographical region of Southeast Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe). The region takes its name from the Balkan Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Mountains) that stretch from the east of Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) to the very east of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia).
The region is predominantly inhabited by Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians), Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats), Bosniaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks), Gorani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people), Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)), Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins), Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs), Slovenes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenes), Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians), Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people) and other ethnic groups which present minorities in certain countries like the Romani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_People) and Ashkali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkali).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans#cite_note-EB-1)


The Gagauz people are a Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people#cite_note-astridmenz-8) group living mostly in southern Moldova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova) (Gagauzia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauzia)), southwestern Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) (Budjak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak)), south-eastern Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) (Dobrogea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrogea)),[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people#cite_note-medgenetics.ru-9) northeastern Bulgaria, Greece, Brazil, United States and Canada. The Gagauz are Orthodox Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Christians). There is a related ethnic group also called Gagavuz (or Gajal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajal)) living in the European part of northwestern Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey).

Today Gagauz people outside Moldova live mainly in the Ukrainian regions of Odesa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odesa_Oblast) and Zaporizhia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhia_Oblast), as well as in Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan), Kyrgyzstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyzstan), Uzbekistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan), Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania), Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil), Turkmenistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan), Belarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus), Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia), Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia), Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people#cite_note-10) and the Russian region of Kabardino-Balkaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria).
There are also nearly 20,000 descendants of Gagauzians living in the Balkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) country of Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), as well as upwards of 3,000 living in the United States of America, Brazil and Canada.

I2a-Din=24-32%

gyms
20-05-14, 13:29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

Frequencies in some ethnic groups in Europe

Ike
20-05-14, 14:11
So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?

Maybe those Ostrogoths that are marked on the last map already spoke Slavic language before arriving on Balkans?

sparkey
20-05-14, 18:50
Maybe those Ostrogoths that are marked on the last map already spoke Slavic language before arriving on Balkans?

If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?

One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.

gyms
20-05-14, 20:01
sparkey,how do you know that I2a-"Din" expanded with Slavs?I would like to see some scientific evidence for that.Not speculations.

sparkey
20-05-14, 20:18
sparkey,how do you know that I2a-"Din" expanded with Slavs?I would like to see some scientific evidence for that.Not speculations.

I don't claim to know that it expanded with the Slavs, that is just my best guess. Scientific evidence for now is unfortunately limited to analysis of modern diversity and frequency. If that's not enough for you, you're out of luck for now.

Sile
20-05-14, 20:57
If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?

no, we would say it expanded with the gothic armies and it s confederates ..................we do not know how many ethnic peoples the goths absorbed into their society, but we know by historians, that the practice of annexation of tribes and peoples was common with the Goths. ie...the annexation and destruction of the sarmatians by the Goths.

who would ever say , it expanded with this or that linguistic group?


One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.

There are 2 scenario's
1 - The cimmerians lived in southern Ukraine centuries before the Sycthians and sarmatians kicked them out around 700BC, these cimmerians resettled in mostly 2 places , Pannonia in Hungarian/serbian lands and Cappodacia in Anatolia.........both around the year 700BC , a year we can easily say that the I2a-Din entered the Balkans

2- The illyrians where as we know a central European people, who moved slowly south into the Balkans. Beginning in the late bronze-age and finally reaching Montenegro in around 400BC.
Does this not match the I2a-Din found in these lands by numbers and percentage now?

Aberdeen
20-05-14, 21:49
I don't claim to know that it expanded with the Slavs, that is just my best guess. Scientific evidence for now is unfortunately limited to analysis of modern diversity and frequency. If that's not enough for you, you're out of luck for now.

I'm very skeptical of how much modern diversity and frequency tell us about what was happening in the past, unless we have historical records that indicate a relatively stable population situation for a lengthy period. I certainly wouldn't want to use modern Canadian DNA as evidence of what was happening here two or three thousand years ago. Yes, that's an extreme example, but if you look at how many population shifts appear to have happened in the Balkans over the last two or three thousand years, I think it's difficult to be sure which groups account for what genetic material in the current population. That's why I prefer info from old bones, and it's too bad there isn't much of that from the Balkans. And what little we do have, such as the two samples recently discussed on this forum, don't necessarily provide the results some might expect. Plus, with limited samples, we have no way of knowing what's representative. So I think it's difficult to draw any conclusions right now about a lot of DNA questions concerning the Balkans. I would have expected the Slavs to be more R1a, but if that's correct, Balkan Slavs aren't all that Slavic in their DNA. Which could actually be the case, IMO.

motzart
21-05-14, 02:41
It seems that what we need to distinguish I2a Din from the Slavs, is some evidence that I2a Din was Pre-Slavic in the Balkans.

Since Croatia is one of the best hotspots of I2a Din it seems like a great place to study.

Here is a slice taken from the "History of Croatia" Wikipedia page

After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in 476, with the beginning of the Migration Period, Julius Nepos shortly ruled his diminished domain from the Diocletian palace after his 476 flight from Italy.[11] The region was then ruled by the Ostrogoths up to 535, when Justinian I added the territory to the Byzantine Empire. Later, the Byzantines formed the Theme of Dalmatia in the same territory.

The Roman period ends with Avar and Croat invasions in the 6th and 7th centuries and the destruction of almost all Roman towns. Roman survivors retreated to more favourable sites on the coast, islands and mountains.[12] The city of Ragusa was founded by such survivors from Epidaurum.[13]

-Ragusa is now known as Dubrovnik.

-Croats are the Slavic Tribe responsible for the Slavicization of Dalmatia into the modern day Slavic nation of Croatia

If I2a Din spread to Croatia with the Slavic Croats then we would expect to see a positive correlation of I2a Din in the areas where the Croats settled and a negative one for where the native Romans at the time fled to.

So we would expect to see (I2a Din) Croats on the mainland, and some other mixture of roman survivors on the islands and mountains surrounding Ragusa.

Now lets look at the figures from this study on Y DNA in Croatia and see how it fits in to this, the study taken from Maciamo's own sources.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html#fig1

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/images/5200992f1.jpg




Frequency
No
95% CR


I-M170





Croatian mainland
0.376
41
0.291–0.470


Krk
0.284
21
0.194–0.396


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.551
27
0.413–0.682


Hvar
0.659
60
0.557–0.749


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.537
72
0.453–0.620








G-M201





Croatian mainland
0.009
1
0.002–0.050


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.061
3
0.022–0.165


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.058


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.104
14
0.064–0.168








F-M89





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.020
1
0.005–0.106


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.058


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
2
0.005–0.052








R1a-SRY10831





Croatian mainland
0.339
37
0.257–0.433


Krk
0.378
28
0.276–0.493


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.265
13
0.162–0.403


Hvar
0.087
8
0.045–0.162


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.201
27
0.142–0.0277








R1b-M173





Croatian mainland
0.156
17
0.100–0.236


Krk
0.162
12
0.096–0.263


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.061
3
0.022–0.165


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.059


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
1
0.005–0.052








P*-92R7





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.140
13
0.085–0.227


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.060
8
0.026–0.104








E-SRY4064





Croatian mainland
0.055
6
0.026–0.115


Krk
0.068
5
0.030–0.149


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.041
2
0.013–0.137


Hvar
0.043
4
0.018–0.106


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.037
5
0.016–0.084








J-12f2





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.108
8
0.056–0.199


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.033
3
0.012–0.091


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.022
3
0.008–0.064








K-M9





Croatian mainland
0.009
1
0.002–0.050


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.000
0
0


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
2
0.005–0.052





So what do we see here?

There is a higher frequency of Haplogroup I in the samples taken from the Islands surrounding Ragusa(Dubrovnik), and a lower frequency of Haplogroup I on the Croatian mainland where the Slavic Croats settled.

Likewise we see a Higher Frequency of R1a on the Croatian mainland where the Croats settled and a lesser frequency on the islands surrounding Ragusa.

I think this is pretty compelling evidence that the high frequency Haplogroup I (I2a-Din) is Pre-Slavic in Croatia.

Ike
21-05-14, 04:33
If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?.

It's just a matter of agreement. We can also say like that.

My "fear" is that it may be complicated than that. Small Gothic tribe comes down to Ukraine where they destroy Sarmatian kingdom. There they are culturally influenced by overwhelming surrounding R1a peasant population of Sarmatia. They settle there and experience a population boom. Centuries after they start pushing down to Balkans, evading the Huns. Some authors still call them Ostrogoths, but in fact they speak Slavic by now, and consider themselves Slavs.

I'm not saying that it actually happened like this, but until more reliable data, all these theories are possible...

Shetop
21-05-14, 06:57
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html

I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.

Shetop
21-05-14, 07:12
If I2a Din spread to Croatia with the Slavic Croats then we would expect to see a positive correlation of I2a Din in the areas where the Croats settled and a negative one for where the native Romans at the time fled to.

So we would expect to see (I2a Din) Croats on the mainland, and some other mixture of roman survivors on the islands and mountains surrounding Ragusa.

I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

Sile
21-05-14, 09:16
There is a big difference. Today there are significant leftovers in those same regions, from the most of the languages you have written above.
And as I have written, Gothic leftovers don't exist in the Balkans, not even as a trace.

And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge.

So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?

The correlation you speak about is linguistic, it counts for nothing in genetics.
Give me a genetic association with the origins of a slavic tribe from the polesie area ( all slavic scholars state this as the true origins of the slavs) and the people you talk about as being I2a-din.

Back to goths, my guess is that goths where primararily R1a with some I markers as discovered by Ken N ( he stated origins of an I marker in ancient east prussia ,this was discussed before on this forum ).

visigoths = pure goths , with Vandili people
ostrogoths = east goths, mixed people

Sile
21-05-14, 09:18
In the Balkans, all nationalities which have more than 16% I2a1b use Slavic language.
And opposite from that, all that have less than 16% are not Slavic (In the Balkans).

and what percentage of I2a1b of slavs in the balkans know how to speak English?

Sile
21-05-14, 09:27
I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?

The area was not empty of people

gyms
21-05-14, 09:52
We finally have some useful SNPs to divide the very large Dinaric
haplogroup. One of the most important is S17250 and it is now available for
testing as an individual SNP at FTDNA. You can also order S17250 from
Thomas Krahn's http://www.yseq.net/ (http://www.yseq.net/) and no prior testing is required at
this company. And S17250 is included as part of the Chromo2 test at
BritainsDNA http://www.britainsdna.com/ (http://www.britainsdna.com/)

Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-. The division between Dinaric-South
and Dinaric-North is based on two STR markers and this division is not
always a perfect reflection of genetic history. Dinarics belong to
I-CTS5966 which is part of I-L621, I-M423, and I-P37 and they have been
known by many other haplogroup designations over the years.

Thanks to those Dinarics who have done Big Y or tested at YSEQ, and thanks
to Larry Mayka of the Polish Project and Zdenko Markovic of the I2a project
for analyzing the data. Please see our new Dinaric tree here
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.htmland (http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.htmland)
please feel free to contact me for the most recent advice before you
order S17250 or any other test.

Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project

The URL didn't come out correctly. Here it is again:

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html (http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html)

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course.

Besides S17250, I have requested from FTDNA individual SNP tests for the
following:
Y3548
Z16970
Z16971
YFC010724
Y3118
Z16983 (17558968)

From: Bernie Cullen

The case is not closed yet

Shetop
21-05-14, 10:42
If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?

The area was not empty of people

E-V13
J-M12
R1b-U152
R1b-M269(xL51)
J-M410
G2a

I'm not sure about the timeline of the multiple I1 SNPs which can be found in the Balkans.

mihaitzateo
21-05-14, 11:41
Romania is not in the Balkans.
Also it is a kind of a special case, which requires its own detailed analysis. I assume many have read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_influence_on_Romanian

In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc

So it is clear that Romanian people and language were formed from Slavic people also.
Not possible to have basic words replaced,under the influence of settling people.
So,first,I do not agree with the theory of Slavic migration in Balkans,I agree partially .
I think some kind of Satem speakers,of a language that is closed to today South Slavic were living were today South Slavs are living before Roman Empire conquest.
As for I2a1b I think is very old ,some people that were here from thousands of year before Christ.
Notice that some genetic testing have show Thracian being very closed to Sardinians ,which have as most present paternal line a some kind of I2a.
So is very possible that on today land of Romania,Balkans were living some Italic speakers,after which Satem speakers came and conquered them.
Most Satem speakers were speaking some kind of proto-Slavic.In Romania was less influence in the language,this is why the language kept lots of words common with Romance languages.

FBS
21-05-14, 14:52
In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc

Occhi - Italian - eyes
Oculi - Latin - eyes

Hm?

motzart
21-05-14, 15:36
I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


You can see exactly which haplogroups were there before the Slavs and which ones came with the Slavs from this data. They created this study with the goal to prove paleolithic continuity of Haplogroup I in Croatia, but given we our current knowledge of the unlikeliness of paleolithic continuity all it does is show us which haplogroups were pre Slav.

Every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Croation mainlaind" than for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" is Slav, every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" than for "Croatian Mainland" is Pre-Slav.

Slav:

R1a-SRY
R1b-M173

Pre-Slav:

I-M170
G-M201
P*
J

The G/P*/J aren't really of any value because it is based off of <10 results. I think this study is only significant for I, R1a, and R1b.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/images/5200992f1.jpg




Frequency
No
95% CR


I-M170





Croatian mainland
0.376
41
0.291–0.470


Krk
0.284
21
0.194–0.396


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.551
27
0.413–0.682


Hvar
0.659
60
0.557–0.749


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.537
72
0.453–0.620








G-M201





Croatian mainland
0.009
1
0.002–0.050


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.061
3
0.022–0.165


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.058


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.104
14
0.064–0.168








F-M89





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.020
1
0.005–0.106


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.058


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
2
0.005–0.052








R1a-SRY10831





Croatian mainland
0.339
37
0.257–0.433


Krk
0.378
28
0.276–0.493


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.265
13
0.162–0.403


Hvar
0.087
8
0.045–0.162


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.201
27
0.142–0.0277








R1b-M173





Croatian mainland
0.156
17
0.100–0.236


Krk
0.162
12
0.096–0.263


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.061
3
0.022–0.165


Hvar
0.011
1
0.003–0.059


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
1
0.005–0.052








P*-92R7





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.140
13
0.085–0.227


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.060
8
0.026–0.104








E-SRY4064





Croatian mainland
0.055
6
0.026–0.115


Krk
0.068
5
0.030–0.149


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.041
2
0.013–0.137


Hvar
0.043
4
0.018–0.106


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.037
5
0.016–0.084








J-12f2





Croatian mainland
0.018
2
0.006–0.064


Krk
0.108
8
0.056–0.199


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.033
3
0.012–0.091


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.022
3
0.008–0.064








K-M9





Croatian mainland
0.009
1
0.002–0.050


Krk
0.000
0
0


Brahttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gif
0.000
0
0


Hvar
0.000
0
0


Korhttp://www.nature.com/__chars/c/special/caron/black/med/base/glyph.gifula
0.015
2
0.005–0.052

Eldritch
21-05-14, 16:07
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html

I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
What does the link say exactly?

I don't understand.

mihaitzateo
21-05-14, 16:25
Occhi - Italian - eyes
Oculi - Latin - eyes

Hm?

That proves that existed a strong inter-living between Slavs and Romance populations.
Since in proto-Indo-European is not this form.
Romanian have other words from Slavic,one of the words that is giving scientists from Romania a lot of headaches being zapada,used in Romanian for snow,which is cognate to old Slavonic zapadati - to fall a lot of snow.
All Slavic speakers have a very closed word to Germanic for snow.
Another thing,zapada is not used in the part of Romania that was conquered by Roman Empire,that much.
Another thing,most Romanian words used for agriculture are cognate to Slavic words.
Some theory tells that Dacians were some kind of Iranic speakers,raising sheep and being leading class,Slavs people practicing agriculture living together with Thracians,which were Italic population conquered by Dacians.

I doubt that Slavs were carrying only one HG on paternal lines and I do not think they were carrying I2-din mostly.
No idea why people do not have a theory in which Slavs actually came from SE Europe and spread to North since they are Satem IE speakers.
It would be common sense that Satem IE Speakers so Slavs also to carry mostly J2,R1A in addition to other HGs.But not carrying too much I2din.
In fact is possible that Slavs came and conquered Balkans&Romania,mixed with people here and after spread towards North Europe.
In the process they mixed with I2-din bearers and spread I2-din towards North Europe.

I think we whsould open a topic on linguistics section with words from Iranic languages in Albanian,Romanian and Slavic languages and also with common culture things between Iranic people and these 4 ethnicities mentioned before.

Shetop
21-05-14, 16:34
What does the link say exactly?

I don't understand.

It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250.

Since I2a-Dinaric-South is predominant in the Balkans and I2a-Dinaric-North is more frequent as we go towards Northeast (it is almost the only I2a-Dinaric found in Northeast Europe), it is clear that the Balkan I2a-Din is younger than the one in the other parts of Eastern Europe (it is actually the youngest).

If Balkan I2a is the youngest of all the European I2a, then it can't be the source of I2a in Europe.

LeBrok
21-05-14, 16:58
It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250.

Since I2a-Dinaric-South is predominant in the Balkans and I2a-Dinaric-North is more frequent as we go towards Northeast (it is almost the only I2a-Dinaric found in Northeast Europe), it is clear that the Balkan I2a-Din is younger than the one in the other parts of Eastern Europe (it is actually the youngest).

If Balkan I2a is the youngest of all the European I2a, then it can't be the source of I2a in Europe.
I was thinking about this and then it occurred to me that I don't have enough genetic knowledge to determine if addition or deletion of a SNP is the sign of age, evolutionary progress if you will. Are you sure if deletion can't happen with time too?

Shetop
21-05-14, 17:15
I was thinking about this and then it occurred to me that I don't have enough genetic knowledge to determine if addition or deletion of a SNP is the sign of age, evolutionary progress if you will. Are you sure if deletion can't happen with time too?

I don't have enough knowledge too, but I think that deletion possibility is highly unlikely.

And if it ever happened it would be impossible that it happened completely only for those I2a samples where the next youngest SNP is not found (the next youngest is I2a-CTS5966).
And for the I2a-CTS5966 it is not completely deleted (some have it some don't). It would make no sense that it is preserved in the youngest samples.

gyms
21-05-14, 18:00
Shetop:"It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250."

No.It says that:"Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-."
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project

Shetop
21-05-14, 18:08
Shetop:"It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250."

No.It says that:"Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-."
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project

What part of my post is wrong?

skaheen15
21-05-14, 19:47
The Slavic theory is beginning to look like the most sensible one.

motzart
21-05-14, 19:47
Here is some more data on sampling done in the Balkans. It shows a 9.4% frequency of I2a1 M423 in Trento, which for some reason is shown as 0% in Maciamo's I2a1 map, he must have used data from a different study.

http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheDHJLBNRVQ2L0AWVZLURLC3RPBMF0AW9UCW==/imgtrento3.jpg
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://i.imgur.com/gaA5yL5.jpg

And some maps of gothic expansion because we love maps here.
http://img.tyzhden.ua/Content/Digest/week/march/gth.jpg




http://www.mmdtkw.org/MedRom0213Ostrogoths.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa429/LurkingNinja/Europe526AD.png

http://www.designsofwonder.com/images/MapImages/migration.gif

I like this map because it shows the entire history of the gothic migration. The Goths did not settle in the entire "Ostrogothic Kingdom" rather they settled in Bosnia/Croatia and later sacked/conqured rome with no corresponding settlement.

Here is a quote from Jordanes about how the Goths got to Pannonia and how we see them living there south of the Danube (Right where Bosnia is)

"Now when the Goths saw the Gepidae defending for themselves the territory of the Huns and the people of the Huns dwelling again in their ancient abodes, they preferred to ask for lands from the Roman Empire, rather than invade the lands of others with danger to themselves. So they received Pannonia, which stretches in a long plain, being bounded on the east by Upper Moesia, on the south by Dalmatia, on the west by Noricum and on the north by the Danube"

Sile
21-05-14, 20:38
@motzart

I do not know why you put the trento map in the above links.

Trento and alto-adige region of Italy rarely have people who test in genetic sites ( 23andme , ftdna etc) , this is because they get tested for free by the region.

in regard to the I marker from these regional tests for that region. it states
~5% for I1
and ~2% for I2


the 9.4% is for North-east Italy, it can mean Veneto and Friuli regions.
And yes Trento does fall in the term - the 3 venice's ...........veneto, friuli and trento regions

gyms
21-05-14, 20:47
Shetop:"What part of my post is wrong?"

You should say all tested Dinarics instead of"all Dinarics".

motzart
21-05-14, 21:51
@motzart

I do not know why you put the trento map in the above links.

Trento and alto-adige region of Italy rarely have people who test in genetic sites ( 23andme , ftdna etc) , this is because they get tested for free by the region.

in regard to the I marker from these regional tests for that region. it states
~5% for I1
and ~2% for I2


the 9.4% is for North-east Italy, it can mean Veneto and Friuli regions.
And yes Trento does fall in the term - the 3 venice's ...........veneto, friuli and trento regions


I posted the map of Trento to show the Region where they had a 9.4% sample for I2a1 (showing I2a1 has a higher frequency Northeastern italy than Maciamo's I2a1 map suggests), can you post me a link to the 'regional tests' you are talking about?

Here is the study I was going off of.

Materials and methods
Samples
The sample consists of 1206 unrelated male individuals
from 17 population samples (Figure 1). Two-hundred and
thirty-five of these, namely 64 Albanians from Former
Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia, 29 Croatians from
Osijek, 75 Slovenians and 67 northeast Italians (from the
province of Trento), are reported here for the first time. The
remaining include samples reported earlier,
23,27,33
and
consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66
Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from
Macedonia), 55 Albanians (collected in Tirana), 89 Croa-
tians, 99 Polish, 75 Czechs, 92 Ukrainians, 53 Hungarians
and 255 Bosnia-Herzegovinians (84 Bosniacs, 90 Croats
and 81 Serbs). Blood samples were collected from healthy
unrelated adults after obtaining informed consent. DNA
was extracted from whole blood according to the
standard phenol/chloroform procedure, followed by ethanol
precipitation.
In addition, P37.2* samples identified from a screening
of the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation collec-
tion (over 14 000 Y chromosomes from more than 100
countries) were also included.

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Done in 2008, I think a random sampling would provide a better result than voluntary regional testing. Professional random sampling would be done on unrelated individuals with historical roots in the region, voluntary would spread family based and include individuals with no historical roots

Sile
21-05-14, 22:15
I posted the map of Trento to show the Region where they had a 9.4% sample for I2a1 (showing I2a1 has a higher frequency Northeastern italy than Maciamo's I2a1 map suggests), can you post me a link to the 'regional tests' you are talking about?

Here is the study I was going off of.

Materials and methods
Samples
The sample consists of 1206 unrelated male individuals
from 17 population samples (Figure 1). Two-hundred and
thirty-five of these, namely 64 Albanians from Former
Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia, 29 Croatians from
Osijek, 75 Slovenians and 67 northeast Italians (from the
province of Trento), are reported here for the first time. The
remaining include samples reported earlier,
23,27,33
and
consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66
Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from
Macedonia), 55 Albanians (collected in Tirana), 89 Croa-
tians, 99 Polish, 75 Czechs, 92 Ukrainians, 53 Hungarians
and 255 Bosnia-Herzegovinians (84 Bosniacs, 90 Croats
and 81 Serbs). Blood samples were collected from healthy
unrelated adults after obtaining informed consent. DNA
was extracted from whole blood according to the
standard phenol/chloroform procedure, followed by ethanol
precipitation.
In addition, P37.2* samples identified from a screening
of the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation collec-
tion (over 14 000 Y chromosomes from more than 100
countries) were also included.

http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Done in 2008, I think a random sampling would provide a better result than voluntary regional testing. Professional random sampling would be done on unrelated individuals with historical roots in the region, voluntary would spread family based and include individuals with no historical roots


there are 3 different 2013 papers in the thread below

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28268-New-population-isolates-identified-in-the-eastern-Italian-Alps

LeBrok
22-05-14, 05:42
I don't have enough knowledge too, but I think that deletion possibility is highly unlikely.

And if it ever happened it would be impossible that it happened completely only for those I2a samples where the next youngest SNP is not found (the next youngest is I2a-CTS5966).
And for the I2a-CTS5966 it is not completely deleted (some have it some don't). It would make no sense that it is preserved in the youngest samples.
I'll go with your logic for the lack of alternative explanation. :)

FrankN
22-05-14, 17:34
I don't think the Slavs are responsible for bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans:


If I understood the argument brought forward by Sparkey correctly, it starts with the observation of high I2a-Din diversity in Southern Poland. Now, because of post WWII population shifts, Southern Poland is a tricky region. In fact, the vast majority of people now living in Silesia west of Katowice should have originated from what is today Western Ukraine. Any more detailed explanation about what "Southern Poland" is meant to comprise is appreciated. Until then, I would rather tend to regard the Dniester basin (SW Ukraine & Moldova) as potential I2a-Din "homeland".
The Slavic expansion is believed to have taken place from somewhere NE of the Carpathians. The south-western expansion, which comprised Croats and Serbs, is assumed to have ocurred via Moravia and the Pannonian plain. The most convenient way of getting there, especially if you are travelling with children and household belongings, is via the upper Oder and the Moravian Gate (Katowize - Ostrava - Brno). Now, we know about another Slavic expansion that started from the upper Oder, namely the Obodrites that settled Mecklenburg and Eastern Holstein. The Obotrites were "good", i.e. Christianised Slavs, thus after their incorporation into the Holy Roman Empire in the late 12th century, the nobility was left in place and actually continued to rule as Dukes of Mecklenburg until 1919. Their genetic footprint, while diluted by subsequent German settlers (possibly also some Swedes during the 17th and 18th century), is well preserved - R1b frequency peaks around Rostock (central Mecklenburg) at 32%. Ia2-Din, OTOH? None that I am aware of (I am, however not following the various DNA pages).
Now, I find it hard to imagine that two migrations that started about the same time and overlapped each other along the upper Oder have resulted in completely different genetic patterns - R1b prevalence in the North, I2a-Din prevalence in the South. Before someone starts with "founder effects" - the Obotrites initially settled in various disjunct areas ("Siedlungskammern"), and only in the 9th century developed political coherence. If at all, smaller genetic components like Ia2-Din are much more likely to have been amplified in one of the many disjunct Obotrite areas than along the middle Danube, which has been a major transit corridor also during early South Slavonic times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obotrites (anybody understanding German should select the German version that is far more detailed and less erroneous).
What if I2a-Din took a shortcut from the Dniester Basin to Serbo-Croat lands? The sources of Dniester and Tisza aren't that far apart. Quite a possible migration route. However, in that case we land with Gepids, Dacians etc. rather than with Slavs, all of which have been discussed here already and don't need to be repeated.
What if the Serbs and Croats picked up I2a-Din somewhere on their way, say around the Morava in SW Slovakia / Eastern Austria (which, as I have understood, seems to be another diversity hotspot)? Well, first of all, this would leave the question how I2a-Din made it almost to the Balkans without the Slavs, but required them to finally arrive there. I believe the grass isn't any less green on the southern bank of the Danube than on the northern shore, and the advance of the Huns would have provided for enough good reason to move on a bit further south, even for those that previously didn't think living in the Roman Empire might be attractive.. Secondly, the advancing Slavs must have picked up quite a lot of I2a-Din on their way to bring forward the frequencies observed today.
Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

After the fall of the Hunnic realm in 454 at the Battle of Nedao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nedao), in which the Heruls participated, they created their own kingdom at the March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(river)) and Theiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisza) rivers, (in the region of today's southern Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia)). German Wikipedia, which I tend to trust more here, mentions that the Heruli kingdom also covered the Austrian Weinviertel (NE Austria north of Vienna).

After the Herulian kingdom was destroyed by the Lombards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards), Herulian fortunes waned. Remaining Heruls joined the Lombards and some of them sought refuge with the Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepid). Marcellinus comes recorded that the Romans (meaning the East Romans or in modern naming the Byzantines) allowed them to resettle depopulated "lands and cities" near Singidunum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singidunum) (modern Belgrade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade)); this was done "by order of Anastasius Caesar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasius_I_(emperor))" sometime between June 29 and August 31, 512. After one generation, this minor federate kingdom disappeared from the historical records.

Records indicate that the Heruli served in the armies of the Roman emperors for a number of years, in particular in the campaigns of Belisarius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius), when much of the old Roman territory, including Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria), and North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa) was recaptured. Pharus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharas_the_Herulian) was a notable Herulian commander during this period. Several thousand Heruli served in the personal guard of Belisarius throughout the campaigns. They disappeared from historical records by the mid-6th century.
I am no expert in interpreting Byzantine texts, but to me, "cities" (note the plural) denotes a quite large chunk of land to be repopulated (maybe the Serbians here can find out more details). Similarly, "several thousand Heruli" indicates a sizeable local population by 530/540 (the main period of Belisarius' campaigns), i.e. 20-30 years after the establishment of the Singidonum colony.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundus_(general):

Mundus (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Μούνδος; died 536) was an Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic) general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General) of the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) during the reign of Justinian I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I).
Mundus was of the son of Giesmus, a king of the East Germanic tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids), and nephew to another Gepid king, Trapstila. (..) In 529, Mundus sent envoys to Justinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian), offering his allegiance. His offer was accepted, and Mundus was appointed magister militum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_militum) per Illyricum, head of all military forces in Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) and along the Danubian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) frontier.During the next two years, he defeated incursions of Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) and Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) into the Balkans and sent much booty to Constantinople.
In 531, Mundus was briefly magister militum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_militum) per Orientem, replacing Belisarius after his failure at Callinicum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Callinicum), but it seems that Mundus never actually traveled to the East to assume that command. In January 532, he was again appointed commander of the Illyrian forces. In the same month, he happened to be in Constantinople with a force of Heruli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli) mercenaries when the Nika riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots) broke out. Mundus remained loyal to Justinian and, along with Belisarius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius), was responsible for the massacre of the supporters of Hypatius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatius_(consul_500)) in the Hippodrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippodrome_of_Constantinople) and thus the reassertion of imperial control.
Mundus remained in command of the forces in Illyricum thereafter. In 535, as Justinian launched his attempt to reconquer Italy from the Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(535%E2%80%93554)), he led his forces into Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia), which the Goths held, while Belisarius invaded Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) by sea. Mundus defeated the Goths and took the capital, Salona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salona); but, early in the next year, a new Gothic army arrived to reclaim the province. In a skirmish near Salona, Mundus's son Mauricius was trapped with only a few men by a larger Gothic force and was killed. Enraged by the loss of his son, Mundus sallied out and defeated the Goths but was mortally wounded in the pursuit
Obviousy, Mundus' forces were mainly made up by Heruli. With all we know about the habits of war those days ("sent much booty to Constantinople", and probably kept even more for himself and his men), genetic founder effects in Bosnia and Croatia brought forward by that Dalmatian campaign are anything but unlikely.
Finally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singidunum:

In the 5th and 6th centuries, Moesia and Illyricum suffered devastating raids by the successive invasions of the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), Ostrogoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths), Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepid), Sarmatians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians), Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars), and Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs). Singidunum fell to the Huns in 441, who razed the city and fortress, selling its Roman inhabitants into indentured servitude. Over the next two hundred years, the city passed hands several times: the Romans reclaimed the city after the fall of the Hun confederation in 454, but the Sarmatians conquered the city shortly thereafter. In 470 the Ostrogoths seized the city around, expelling the Sarmatians. The city was later invaded by Gepids (488), but the Ostrogoths recaptured it in 504. Six years later the Eastern Roman Empire reclaimed the city according to a peace treaty.
Byzantine emperor Justinian I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I) rebuilt Singidunum in 535, restoring the fortress and city to its former military importance. The city saw a brief peaceful period of about fifty years, but was then sacked with the arrival of the Avars in 584. During Maurice's Balkan campaigns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice%27s_Balkan_campaigns), Singidunum served as a base of operations, but it was lost again in the early half of the 7th century when the Avars sacked and burned Singidunum to the ground. Around 630, the Slavs settled in the area. So, by the time of the Heruli settlement (512), the city and its surrounding hat seen several devastating raids, and at least seven times changed hands during seventy years. There probably wasn't much original population left. The Heruli colony, OTOH, experienced 70 years of peace, plus another 50 years before the arrival of the Slavs. Might just be enough to propagate I2a-Din to a sizeable number, provided it was already well present within the original Heruli / March basin colony.
In fact, considering the linguistic situation in the area (Latin vs. Greek as official languages, Illyrian, Dacian, Germanic Heruli & Gepids, Avars, Bulgars, possibly Alans and residual Huns), it doesn't take that many Slavs taking settlement for Slavonic becoming the region's lingua franca..

sparkey
22-05-14, 18:26
If I understood the argument brought forward by Sparkey correctly, it starts with the observation of high I2a-Din diversity in Southern Poland. Now, because of post WWII population shifts, Southern Poland is a tricky region. In fact, the vast majority of people now living in Silesia west of Katowice should have originated from what is today Western Ukraine. Any more detailed explanation about what "Southern Poland" is meant to comprise is appreciated. Until then, I would rather tend to regard the Dniester basin (SW Ukraine & Moldova) as potential I2a-Din "homeland".

Southern Poland is important to I2a-Din for two reasons: (1) The greatest outlier was found there. I believe that family came from around Moskorzew. (2) High diversity of I2a-Din-S, the Southern/Western cluster, is found there. I've seen a couple of analyses placing diversity hotspots across Southern Poland (not much more geographic specificity, sorry), including a very good one that I think disappeared when DNA Forums went down. The other was the old Vadim Verenich one, which was also on DNA Forums, but I think he may have cross-posted on Forum Biodiversity or Molgen if somebody wants to dig that up again.


Their genetic footprint, while diluted by subsequent German settlers (possibly also some Swedes during the 17th and 18th century), is well preserved - R1b frequency peaks around Rostock (central Mecklenburg) at 32%.

I've never seen anyone claim that elevated R1b percentages are evidence of Slavic expansion, could you elaborate? I suppose East Germanic peoples don't have a lot of evidence for carrying R1b in high percentages, but in general, Germanic peoples are thought to have tended to carrier greater frequencies of R1b than Slavs.

I2a-Din in Germany is most common close to Austria from what I've seen, possibly indicating that the Carantanians left a greater genetic impact than the Obotrites.


Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli

I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?

Sile
22-05-14, 20:30
I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?

Depends where one thinks the Heruli origins are ........Scandinavia ( I heard Norway) or modern coastal Poland.

All I have read on 12a-din in North-east Italy was from Heruli settlement in an area in Friuli under the town called Concordia
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=V09YAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14&dq=heruli+concordia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_kF-U_DZF4nolAWYjYCgCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=heruli%20concordia&f=false

They did arrive in the Black sea area as well
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=HsrGEFpW80UC&pg=PA193&dq=heruli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sT9-U6CBIcitkAXq3YDgAQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=heruli&f=false

sometimes older books have far far more detail
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=xgtAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1062&dq=heruli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sT9-U6CBIcitkAXq3YDgAQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=heruli&f=false

Another thing to think about is ............are the Hirri also known as the Heruli

FrankN
22-05-14, 22:03
I've never seen anyone claim that elevated R1b percentages are evidence of Slavic expansion, could you elaborate? I suppose East Germanic peoples don't have a lot of evidence for carrying R1b in high percentages, but in general, Germanic peoples are thought to have tended to carrier greater frequencies of R1b than Slavs.
My mistake! I of course meant to say R1a.


I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?
Sile has already partly answered on my behalf. The origin of the Heruli is unclear. Wikipedia has a 150 AD map showing them on the Danish isles, but that all seems to be a lot of guessing based on a few sentences written by Roman geographers (as usual). The Heruli went somehow alongside the Goths, settling on the northern shores of the Black Sea (which again could have been anywhere from the Don to the Dniester, thus I2a-Din-rich or rather poor areas), followed the Huns westward, then turned against them together with the Goths, and ultimately ended up somewhere around March and Tisza. Along the way, they should have picked up various other populations, and during their 50 years rule of northern Pannonia they collected whoever had been washed there by the Hunnic tide, plus the natives (Dacians?) that had managed to survive the Huns. Essentially, when part of the Heruli (and we don't even know which part of the conglomerate that they had become) settled around today's Belgrade, they most likely did not have much more in common with the Baltic Heruli than a bit of nobility and the language (even about the latter I am not sure).

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Naissus, it appears that the Heruli were especially skilled in seafaring and had their main port at the mouth of the Dniester (I2a-Din "homeland"). Together with the Goths (which appear to have rather travelled by land), in 267-269 they ravaged the western Black Sea and the Aegean, before finally suffering defeat at Naissus (today's Nis in Serbia).

A large number of Goths managed to escape towards Macedonia, initially defending themselves behind their laager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laager). Soon, many of them and their pack animals, distressed as they were by the harassment of the Roman cavalry and the lack of provisions, died of hunger. The Roman army methodically pursued and surrounded the survivors at Mount Haemus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Mountains) where an epidemic affected the entrapped Goths. After a bloody but inconclusive battle, they escaped but were pursued again until they surrendered. Prisoners were admitted to the army or given land to cultivate and become coloni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonus_(person)). Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not state where they settled - near Mount Haemus, which is the antique name for the Balkan mountain range that runs across Bulgaria ? Anyway, here the Wikipedia map of the Heruli and Gothic invasions, if anybody wants to check if it may explain some of the I2a-Din observed.
6441

Shetop
22-05-14, 22:22
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Naissus, it appears that the Heruli were especially skilled in seafaring and had their main port at the mouth of the Dniester (I2a-Din "homeland"). Together with the Goths (which appear to have rather travelled by land), in 267-269 they ravaged the western Black Sea and the Aegean, before finally suffering defeat at Naissus (today's Nis in Serbia).

That is my city. :smile:

Ike
22-05-14, 23:14
So, who was in Naissus at that times?
Or was it that agricultural people of the surrounding were of no importance for the invaders? They wanted to capture the city for the gold that was inside, and afterwards continue the exploitation of the peasants, same way as the defeated city-holders did?

motzart
23-05-14, 01:13
I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?

I1 might have been a minority 1-5% in the Goths but it is totally impossible that I1 or any of the other West/North Germanic subclades (R1b-U106/I2a2) could have been the major haplogroup. Look at the impact the Viking invasions had, we can literally see their presence everywhere they settled and this was a situation with people coming over in boats. They still reach a 15-25% frequency in the areas of Britain they settled (I1+I2a2) AND this occured about 500 years AFTER the Gothic migration/invasion of Rome.

The Goths were a tribe SO large that they were able to consistently defeat the Romans AND conquer the Western Roman Empire. This was not a group of settlers coming over in boats either, this was literally their whole tribe spilling south of the Danube to escape the Huns.

If you want to read the entire text of Jordanes I have a link here, http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

you say that I2a-Din doesn't match the East Germanic Expansions but reading through this all I can see is an exact match

FrankN
23-05-14, 12:04
In fact, while pointing at the Heruli, I didn't want to rule out the Goths. Let's assume that Ia2-Din originally evolved somewhere on the upper Dniester, and from there initially, in small quantities, spread south-eastwards into Ukraine / Moldowa, and north-westwards into Eastern Poland & Slovakia. Let's furthermore assume that the I2a-Din S and I2a-Din N split already took place on the upper Dniester, with I2a-Din N moving rather to the south-east, and I2a-Din S moving more towards the north-west. The East-Germanic tribes (Bastarnae, Goths, Heruli etc.) would have picked up a bit of I2a-Din S on their way to the Black Sea, and quite a lot of I2a-Din N in Western Ukraine & Moldova. Their incursions into the eastern Balkans, but also their settlement in Moesia as Roman federates, would have brought I2a-Din there. The Bulgars (which I don't qualify as Slavs - we may have a definition problem here) picked up more of I2a-Din N on their way, and probably also served for a re-distribution of the Moesian pool that originated from 3rd / 4th century Roman settlement of East Germanics. Whoever followed them, whether already Slavs, still proto-Slavs, or another linguistic group that later adopted Slavonic, did the same.

I2a-Din S, in the meantime, would have been picked up by Dacians, Iaszyges, and later the Huns, and spread into the northern Pannonian basin. Some of it may already during Roman times have found its way to the southern Bank of the Danube, be it during the Marcomanni incursions, as mercenaries, or seeking refuge from the Huns. The Heruli come into the picture as they provide a plausible explanation for a substantial transfer of NE-Pannonian genes into Illyria and Dalmatia. Note in this respect that during Justinian's wars, while peace negotiations with the Ostrogoths were going on, a massive fleet mainly manned by Illyrian HerulI lay 2 years idle in Salona (just next to the islands of Hvar and Korcula which have extremely high I2a-Din concentrations). Of course, the Avars and then the Slavs should have provided for further gene transfer from NE-Pannonia, either directly or by inducing influx of refugees. But essentially, that would have been the icing on the cake rather than the main cause.

In short - I don't think you can attach a specific ethnic name, be it Sarmatians (Iaszyges), Dacians, Goths, Bastarnae, Heruli, Huns, Bulgars, Avars or Slavs, to the processes that brought I2a-Din to the Balkan. They all played their role.

Sile
23-05-14, 13:06
In fact, while pointing at the Heruli, I didn't want to rule out the Goths. Let's assume that Ia2-Din originally evolved somewhere on the upper Dniester, and from there initially, in small quantities, spread south-eastwards into Ukraine / Moldowa, and north-westwards into Eastern Poland & Slovakia. Let's furthermore assume that the I2a-Din S and I2a-Din N split already took place on the upper Dniester, with I2a-Din N moving rather to the south-east, and I2a-Din S moving more towards the north-west. The East-Germanic tribes (Bastarnae, Goths, Heruli etc.) would have picked up a bit of I2a-Din S on their way to the Black Sea, and quite a lot of I2a-Din N in Western Ukraine & Moldova. Their incursions into the eastern Balkans, but also their settlement in Moesia as Roman federates, would have brought I2a-Din there. The Bulgars (which I don't qualify as Slavs - we may have a definition problem here) picked up more of I2a-Din N on their way, and probably also served for a re-distribution of the Moesian pool that originated from 3rd / 4th century Roman settlement of East Germanics. Whoever followed them, whether already Slavs, still proto-Slavs, or another linguistic group that later adopted Slavonic, did the same.

I2a-Din S, in the meantime, would have been picked up by Dacians, Iaszyges, and later the Huns, and spread into the northern Pannonian basin. Some of it may already during Roman times have found its way to the southern Bank of the Danube, be it during the Marcomanni incursions, as mercenaries, or seeking refuge from the Huns. The Heruli come into the picture as they provide a plausible explanation for a substantial transfer of NE-Pannonian genes into Illyria and Dalmatia. Note in this respect that during Justinian's wars, while peace negotiations with the Ostrogoths were going on, a massive fleet mainly manned by Illyrian HerulI lay 2 years idle in Salona (just next to the islands of Hvar and Korcula which have extremely high I2a-Din concentrations). Of course, the Avars and then the Slavs should have provided for further gene transfer from NE-Pannonia, either directly or by inducing influx of refugees. But essentially, that would have been the icing on the cake rather than the main cause.

In short - I don't think you can attach a specific ethnic name, be it Sarmatians (Iaszyges), Dacians, Goths, Bastarnae, Heruli, Huns, Bulgars, Avars or Slavs, to the processes that brought I2a-Din to the Balkan. They all played their role.

Heruli = Hirri to some historians ...............seafarers who settled also in estonia and samogitia ( lithuanians)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0064%3Aalphabeti c+letter%3DH%3Aentry+group%3D5%3Aentry%3Dhirri-geo

Heruli were the forefathers of modern Samogitians. In prehistoric times they were called "Hirri" or "Giriai", which means "Forest Dwellers" (the Prusso-Lithuanic word "giria" means "forest"). The earliest record about the "Hirri" we find in the writings of Plinius. Plinius stated that the territory extending from the Vistula river, as far as Eningia (probably he meant Feningia = Finland). ---- "Nec minor opinione Eningia. Quidam haec habitari ad Vistulam a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris, tradunt". ----- Plinius, IV. 27.
Later, the Hirri were known as Hirruli or Heruli.

sparkey
23-05-14, 17:41
I1 might have been a minority 1-5% in the Goths but it is totally impossible that I1 or any of the other West/North Germanic subclades (R1b-U106/I2a2) could have been the major haplogroup.

I1 was only 1-5% of the Goths? Yikes. You know that much of the Balkans have 5%-10% range of I1 levels, right? So if we accept that the I1 in the region is largely from the Goths, and there hasn't been major changes in their internal haplogroup percentages, that would imply that Goths contributed nearly 100% of the patrilines of the region. Even if we accept that the Goths had as much as an impact as you believe they did, that seems extreme. If instead you say that Eastern European I1 has a different source than East Germanic peoples, who would it be?

I know you won't accept my rejection of I2a-Din as Gothic, but I think that there are good reasons to guess that Goths had quite high levels of I1. The most important reason to me is the I1:R1b-U106 ratio in Eastern Europe. Among West Germanic peoples, the ratio is low, but in Eastern Europe, it is high.

It doesn't really matter whether or not Goths had high levels of I1 to support my analysis, anyway. It's sufficient to note how Eastern European I1 distributions (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1-EE/default.aspx?section=yresults) differ from I1 distributions among West and North Germanic peoples, and use it to gauge what East Germanic peoples must have carried. Note relatively high levels of I1-Z63 in particular, including it being found in a known descendant of Crimean Goths. So based on that, we can track I1-Z63 and compare it to I2a-Din. It doesn't match all that well.


Look at the impact the Viking invasions had, we can literally see their presence everywhere they settled and this was a situation with people coming over in boats. They still reach a 15-25% frequency in the areas of Britain they settled (I1+I2a2) AND this occured about 500 years AFTER the Gothic migration/invasion of Rome.

Are you saying that most of the I1 and I2-M223 in Britain is from the Vikings? I'd argue that the high I1-Z58:I1-L22 ratio in Britain implies that the large majority of I1 in Britain is West Germanic (i.e. Anglo-Saxon) rather than North Germanic (i.e. Viking) in origin. I2-M223 is even more complicated because a not-insignificant amount of it in Britain is pre-Anglo-Saxon.

motzart
24-05-14, 01:35
I1 was only 1-5% of the Goths? Yikes. You know that much of the Balkans have 5%-10% range of I1 levels, right? So if we accept that the I1 in the region is largely from the Goths, and there hasn't been major changes in their internal haplogroup percentages, that would imply that Goths contributed nearly 100% of the patrilines of the region. Even if we accept that the Goths had as much as an impact as you believe they did, that seems extreme. If instead you say that Eastern European I1 has a different source than East Germanic peoples, who would it be?

I know you won't accept my rejection of I2a-Din as Gothic, but I think that there are good reasons to guess that Goths had quite high levels of I1. The most important reason to me is the I1:R1b-U106 ratio in Eastern Europe. Among West Germanic peoples, the ratio is low, but in Eastern Europe, it is high.

It doesn't really matter whether or not Goths had high levels of I1 to support my analysis, anyway. It's sufficient to note how Eastern European I1 distributions (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I1-EE/default.aspx?section=yresults) differ from I1 distributions among West and North Germanic peoples, and use it to gauge what East Germanic peoples must have carried. Note relatively high levels of I1-Z63 in particular, including it being found in a known descendant of Crimean Goths. So based on that, we can track I1-Z63 and compare it to I2a-Din. It doesn't match all that well.



Are you saying that most of the I1 and I2-M223 in Britain is from the Vikings? I'd argue that the high I1-Z58:I1-L22 ratio in Britain implies that the large majority of I1 in Britain is West Germanic (i.e. Anglo-Saxon) rather than North Germanic (i.e. Viking) in origin. I2-M223 is even more complicated because a not-insignificant amount of it in Britain is pre-Anglo-Saxon.


I was going by Maciamo's I1 map which suggests there is a lot less than the actual Data, but I can't find the studies he is using for the I1 data in his sources. I see now that the data suggests there is a 5-10% frequency in a minority of the Balkan countries. I do not doubt that Z63 was probably spread by a Gothic migration, but it does not match historical settlements of these people the way that I2a1 does.

The disconnect I see is where we see the final settlement of the Goths, particularly the Ostrogoths. This huge tribe was settled in Pannonia, south of the Danube permanently and throughout all of recorded history was never moved again and integrated into the Roman empire. Only a minority of them would have been settled in Rome and those there would have been a small drop in a large pool rather than a big drop in a small one like Pannonia. The only theory that can explain the peaks of I2a1 in Bosnia/Croatia is the Gothic one. It is unfortunate that the other study I posted on the Croatian island frequencies didn't investigate deeper subclades.

There are so many known Gothic grave sites in Europe that could give a definitive answer to all of this, how do we crowdfund an Ancient DNA sampling! I'd contribute at least $100. :D

I don't want to touch on the vikings in Britain too much, but arguing how much I DNA came with the Angles/Saxons VS the Vikings is splitting hairs. The Angles/Saxons were only coming in to Britain after the Gothic migrations anyway (Why did the Romans leave again ;) ), and if you add up the U106+I1 it adds up to a whole lot more, a little reminiscent of our Herzegovinian frequencies, and again, people in boats vs people on land.

I think we need a thread on I2a1 M26 and the Vandals. Now that we know that there is a I2a Din North & an I2a Din South I think these are good candidates for our Visigoth/Ostrogoth labels. Remember that these people were left Scandinavia Circa 200 B.C. so they had about 500 years to expand in their second homeland of Ukraine.

FrankN
24-05-14, 15:34
Mozart - Do I understand you correctly that you think the Goths (originally mainly I1, maybe with a bit of R1a/b) picked up a lot of I2a Din along the middle/ upper Vistula and/ or in Western Ukraine, making them quite I2a Din-loaded? They would then have spread it along their paths through the Balkans (plus during their settlement as Roman federates in Moesia), with the bulk ending up in Pannonia and Dalmatia where they ultimately took residence. May well have been a major factor, indeed.
This leaves, however, to be answered what brought forward the obviously different distribution of I2a Din N vs. S (any frequency figures on this, alongside I1, which is obviously an East Germanic marker, across the Balkans would be appreciated).
The other question is whether, from recent data, I2a Din still appears to have a diversity peak along the middle Danube in Eastern Austria, Western Hungary and Slovakia (the original links to this are down, but maybe Sparkey can give an update). If so, it would be interesting whether the peak is rather on the Roman side of the Danube (which would point towards the Goths), or on the "barbarian" side (which would bring Dacians, Sarmatians and ultimately Heruli in play). However, most likely it will be difficult to establish such a secondary center of diversity with sufficient geographical precision.

Shetop
24-05-14, 18:27
In short - I don't think you can attach a specific ethnic name, be it Sarmatians (Iaszyges), Dacians, Goths, Bastarnae, Heruli, Huns, Bulgars, Avars or Slavs, to the processes that brought I2a-Din to the Balkan. They all played their role.

Geographic distribution of I2a-Din in the Western Balkans is to compact for scenario with multiple waves. My impression is that the arrival of I2a-Din was one large event. It my had lasted for several decades, but it was not split in completely independent waves.
Specifically the crucial event, as I see this, was the fall of the Kingdom of Gepids in 567. After that large number of Slavs moved from Wallachia towards West and Southwest. During the following decades Byzantine empire gradually lost the control of different parts of the Balkans, thus allowing uncontrolled arrival of I2a-Din.

Shetop
24-05-14, 18:32
Mozart - Do I understand you correctly that you think the Goths (originally mainly I1, maybe with a bit of R1a/b) picked up a lot of I2a Din along the middle/ upper Vistula and/ or in Western Ukraine, making them quite I2a Din-loaded?

"Picking up" large number of people does not make much sense. Why would some mobile tribe bother about moving some ordinary and not related people from one area to another, thus decrising its combat readiness.

motzart
24-05-14, 21:33
I was going to make a post about the Goths but I'll have to come up with a different way to post it as the forum apparently dislikes it when I past in images from ms word :(

motzart
24-05-14, 21:50
Mozart - Do I understand you correctly that you think the Goths (originally mainly I1, maybe with a bit of R1a/b) picked up a lot of I2a Din along the middle/ upper Vistula and/ or in Western Ukraine, making them quite I2a Din-loaded?

No I think that all the Goths were Primarily an I2a Din tribe and that the Din mutation occurred in Scandinavia (South Sweden Gotland). Why don't we find much of it there today? Because the Tribe left.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Chernyakhov.PNG

Green - Götaland
Pink - the island of Gotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland)
Red - Wielbark Culture in the early 3rd century
Orange - Chernyakhov culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture), in the early 4th century
Pruple - Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire)

The Wielbark culture (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Wielbark-Willenberg-Kultur, Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language): Kultura wielbarska, Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language): Вельбарська культура (Vel’bars’ka kul’tura)) or East Pomeranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania)-Mazovian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazovia)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture#cite_note-1) is part of an Iron Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) archaeological complex that dates from the 1st century AD to the 4th century AD.
It replaced the Oksywie culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oksywie_culture), in the area of modern-day Eastern Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerelia) around the lower Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula) river, which was related to the Przeworsk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture).
Wielbark culture contained Venedi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venedi), Rugians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), and Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids) located mainly in Pomerania and West Prussia later spreading down the east side into Podlasie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podlasie) and the southern Ukraine.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture#cite_note-2)

Sile
24-05-14, 22:01
"Picking up" large number of people does not make much sense. Why would some mobile tribe bother about moving some ordinary and not related people from one area to another, thus decrising its combat readiness.

Because that's what is recorded in gothic history, as they moved they conquered and adsorbed many tribes into their armies. This is because the Goths where not a great nation of numbers.

Shetop
24-05-14, 22:03
Ok, lets clear this out. When exactly did Goths, which were I2a-Din come to Western Balkans?

Sile
24-05-14, 22:09
No I think that all the Goths were Primarily an I2a Din tribe and that the Din mutation occurred in Scandinavia (South Sweden Gotland). Why don't we find much of it there today? Because the Tribe left.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Chernyakhov.PNG

Green - Götaland
Pink - the island of Gotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland)
Red - Wielbark Culture in the early 3rd century
Orange - Chernyakhov culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture), in the early 4th century
Pruple - Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire)

The Wielbark culture (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Wielbark-Willenberg-Kultur, Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language): Kultura wielbarska, Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language): Вельбарська культура (Vel’bars’ka kul’tura)) or East Pomeranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania)-Mazovian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazovia)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture#cite_note-1) is part of an Iron Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) archaeological complex that dates from the 1st century AD to the 4th century AD.
It replaced the Oksywie culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oksywie_culture), in the area of modern-day Eastern Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerelia) around the lower Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula) river, which was related to the Przeworsk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture).
Wielbark culture contained Venedi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venedi), Rugians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), and Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids) located mainly in Pomerania and West Prussia later spreading down the east side into Podlasie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podlasie) and the southern Ukraine.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture#cite_note-2)

Recent Archeology findings indicate that the goths where originally from the Vistula delta-Gdansk area.........they sent some people to gotland and sweden for migrating, but retained their homeland of coastal Poland. They had a policy of culling their numbers via migration by 30% every so often. this "culling" was done by lot system

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/ug1_zps07e5f74a.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/ug1_zps07e5f74a.jpg.html)
If I remember the order correctly , its orange, green, blue and then yellow ( or was it orange, blue, yellow and green......matters little) .............after this they decided to move, they invaded the coastal area next to green and conquered the Venedi and Aestii.........then they moved south absorbing the Bastanae and then finally reaching the Black sea

motzart
24-05-14, 22:56
Because that's what is recorded in gothic history, as they moved they conquered and adsorbed many tribes into their armies. This is because the Goths where not a great nation of numbers.

There is nothing in Gothic history about them absorbing tribes into their armies.

motzart
24-05-14, 22:59
Recent Archeology findings indicate that the goths where originally from the Vistula delta-Gdansk area.........they sent some people to gotland and sweden for migrating, but retained their homeland of coastal Poland. They had a policy of culling their numbers via migration by 30% every so often. this "culling" was done by lot system

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/ug1_zps07e5f74a.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/ug1_zps07e5f74a.jpg.html)
If I remember the order correctly , its orange, green, blue and then yellow ( or was it orange, blue, yellow and green......matters little) .............after this they decided to move, they invaded the coastal area next to green and conquered the Venedi and Aestii.........then they moved south absorbing the Bastanae and then finally reaching the Black sea

All wrong, Sweden they referred to as "Scandza" they left Sweden and named the land they migrated to Gothiscandza, read Jordanes here:

IV (25) Now from this island of Scandza, as from a hive of races or a womb of nations, the Goths are said to have come forth long ago under their king, Berig by name. As soon as they disembarked from their ships and set foot on the land, they straightway gave their name to the place. And even to-day it is said to be called Gothiscandza. (26) Soon they moved from here to the abodes of the Ulmerugi, who then dwelt on the shores of Ocean, where they pitched camp, joined battle with them and drove them from their homes. Then they subdued their neighbors, the Vandals, and thus added to their victories. But when the number of the people increased greatly and Filimer, son of Gadaric, reigned as king--about the fifth since Berig--he decided that the army of the Goths with their families should move from that region. (27) In search of suitable homes and pleasant places they came to the land of Scythia, called Oium in that tongue. Here they were delighted with the great richness of the country, and it is said that when half the army had been brought over, the bridge whereby they had crossed the river fell in utter ruin, nor could anyone thereafter pass to or from. For the place is said to be surrounded by quaking bogs and an encircling abyss, so that by this double obstacle nature has made it inaccessible. And even to-day one may hear in that neighborhood the lowing of cattle and may find traces of men, if we are to believe the stories of travellers, although we must grant that they hear these things from afar




There are many points within the full text where he refers to the Goths as a "Race" of people. Definitely not a confederation of tribes.

Shetop
24-05-14, 23:15
Ok, lets clear this out. When exactly did Goths, which were I2a-Din come to Western Balkans?

Probably I'm impatient, but is anyone going to answer my simple question?

Sile
24-05-14, 23:27
All wrong, Sweden they referred to as "Scandza" they left Sweden and named the land they migrated to Gothiscandza, read Jordanes here:

IV (25) Now from this island of Scandza, as from a hive of races or a womb of nations, the Goths are said to have come forth long ago under their king, Berig by name. As soon as they disembarked from their ships and set foot on the land, they straightway gave their name to the place. And even to-day it is said to be called Gothiscandza. (26) Soon they moved from here to the abodes of the Ulmerugi, who then dwelt on the shores of Ocean, where they pitched camp, joined battle with them and drove them from their homes. Then they subdued their neighbors, the Vandals, and thus added to their victories. But when the number of the people increased greatly and Filimer, son of Gadaric, reigned as king--about the fifth since Berig--he decided that the army of the Goths with their families should move from that region. (27) In search of suitable homes and pleasant places they came to the land of Scythia, called Oium in that tongue. Here they were delighted with the great richness of the country, and it is said that when half the army had been brought over, the bridge whereby they had crossed the river fell in utter ruin, nor could anyone thereafter pass to or from. For the place is said to be surrounded by quaking bogs and an encircling abyss, so that by this double obstacle nature has made it inaccessible. And even to-day one may hear in that neighborhood the lowing of cattle and may find traces of men, if we are to believe the stories of travellers, although we must grant that they hear these things from afar




There are many points within the full text where he refers to the Goths as a "Race" of people. Definitely not a confederation of tribes.

Jordanes is not trusted as accurate to modern scholars and historians in his earlier accounts of Goths....he is only taken seriously from when the goths arrived on the black sea. You can check this out yourself or see threads about it here

The original goths are Guttones and Gepids...........as all historians quote, these reside on coastla Poland.

The Earliest historian who quoted the Goths is below
Pytheas (who wrote c.320 BC):

Pytheas says that the Gutones, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

Amber is found in east Prussia, one days sail from the vistula delta area

Around the mouth of the Vistula in modern Pomerelia (Poland), the Nordic-influenced Wielbark culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture) (c. 30 to 400 AD) was once thought to reflect the arrival of the Goths. Yet Pytheas tells us that the Gutones were living there ( coastal poland) centuries earlier. Archaeologists have pointed to the continuity of the Wielbark culture from earlier cultures in the same area.

Sile
25-05-14, 00:18
There are many points within the full text where he refers to the Goths as a "Race" of people. Definitely not a confederation of tribes.

thats not what I said

I said they are a race that absorbed other people into their race..........you need to remember that Goths where around for very many centuries, over time other merged with them to also become goths

Sile
25-05-14, 00:20
Probably I'm impatient, but is anyone going to answer my simple question?

after they started attacking the dacians.........the dacians fled into Roman lands to escape .............so its while Roman empire still existed

motzart
25-05-14, 00:20
Jordanes is not trusted as accurate to modern scholars and historians in his earlier accounts of Goths....he is only taken seriously from when the goths arrived on the black sea. You can check this out yourself or see threads about it here

The original goths are Guttones and Gepids...........as all historians quote, these reside on coastla Poland.

The Earliest historian who quoted the Goths is below
Pytheas (who wrote c.320 BC):
Pytheas says that the Gutones, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

Amber is found in east Prussia, one days sail from the vistula delta area


Around the mouth of the Vistula in modern Pomerelia (Poland), the Nordic-influenced Wielbark culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture) (c. 30 to 400 AD) was once thought to reflect the arrival of the Goths. Yet Pytheas tells us that the Gutones were living there ( coastal poland) centuries earlier. Archaeologists have pointed to the continuity of the Wielbark culture from earlier cultures in the same area.

Nothing Pytheas wrote there contradicts what Jordanes wrote, whether it is pre-Goth gutones or Goths by another name is irrelevant. It is estimated that the Germanic migrations began in 750 B.C., there is nothing conflicting with a 320 B.C. or earlier settlement of Gothiscandza. These were oral traditions passed down by a people for centuries, you think they made it up or got it wrong? Jordanes was a Goth himself and the criticisms of his history are all minor labeling issues nothing with the history itself.

motzart
25-05-14, 00:34
Probably I'm impatient, but is anyone going to answer my simple question?

Sorry Shetop for not responding sooner. Based on Jordanes the Goths had been living in Moesia/Thrace/Dacia before they Settled above the Sea of Pontus (Modern West Ukraine). But we see the major migration at the beginning of the Gothic war south of the Danube. If I have to pick an exact date I will say 376 AD as it is the start of the Gothic War, Pannonia was settled sometime after that and the Goths were there for ~100 years before the establishment of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and their move into Dalmatia.

Jordanes lists many settlements in the Balkans by the Goths

(38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus. Nor do we find anywhere in their written records legends which tell of their subjection to slavery in Britain or in some other island, or of their redemption by a certain man at the cost of a single horse. Of course if anyone in our city says that the Goths had an origin different from that I have related, let him object. For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.

And a little later

Now when the Goths saw the Gepidae defending for themselves the territory of the Huns and the people of the Huns dwelling again in their ancient abodes, they preferred to ask for lands from the Roman Empire, rather than invade the lands of others with danger to themselves. So they received Pannonia, which stretches in a long plain, being bounded on the east by Upper Moesia, on the south by Dalmatia, on the west by Noricum and on the north by the Danube.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum,_Macedonia,_Dacia,_Mo esia,_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg


Now look at that list of settled areas and look at exactly where we see an increase in the amont of I2a1 and a decrease in the areas where they are not listed as having Settled. Don't let that spot in Eastern Germany/West Czech Republic throw you off or any of it found West of Italy, that is all I2a1a (not Din) and we are talking about I2a1b(L621 to be precise)

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

And another Wielbark/Chernyakhov map

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/AD_200ArcheolCulturesCEEurope.png

and a little more on the 'Chernyakhov' from wikipedia

Migration

Whilst acknowledging the mixed origins of the Chernyakiv culture, Peter Heather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Heather) suggests that the culture is ultimately a reflection of the Goths' domination of the Pontic area. He cites literary sources that attest that the Goths were the centre of political attention at this time.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture#cite_note-16) In particular, the culture's development corresponds well with Jordanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes)' tale of Gothic migration from Gothiscandza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothiscandza) to Oium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oium), under the leadership of Filimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filimer). Moreoever, he highlights that crucial external influences that catalysed Chernyakhov cultural development derived from the Wielbark culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture). Originating in the mid-1st century, it spread from south of the Baltic Sea (from territory around later Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania)) down the Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_river) in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Wielbark elements are prominent in the Chernyakhov zone, such as typical 'Germanic' pottery, brooch types and female costume, and, in particular, weaponless bi-ritual burials. Although cultures may spread without substantial population movements, Heather draws attention to a decrease in the number of settlements in the original Pomeranian Wielbark heartland as evidence of a significant population movement. Combined with Jordanes' account, Heather concludes that a movement of Goths (and other east Germanic groups such as Heruli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli) and Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids)) "played a major role in the creation of the Cernjachove culture".[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture#cite_note-17) He clarifies that this movement was not a single, royal-led, migration, but was rather accomplished by a series of small, sometimes mutually antagonistic groups.[18]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture#cite_note-18)The part I bolded there is a huge point for the background of these people being NON R1a. R1a=Indo Eurpeans=Kurgans=Buried WITH weapons. Weaponless burials is a huge boon for I2a-Din being the primary Y DNA Haplogroup of the Goths.

Sile
25-05-14, 02:53
Nothing Pytheas wrote there contradicts what Jordanes wrote, whether it is pre-Goth gutones or Goths by another name is irrelevant. It is estimated that the Germanic migrations began in 750 B.C., there is nothing conflicting with a 320 B.C. or earlier settlement of Gothiscandza. These were oral traditions passed down by a people for centuries, you think they made it up or got it wrong? Jordanes was a Goth himself and the criticisms of his history are all minor labeling issues nothing with the history itself.

There has to be a relevance..........we are talking origins, if Gepids are "cousins" of the Guttones ( goths) then they live together. Besides Jordanes states the goths are east-Germanic

According to a tale related by Jordanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes), Gothiscandza was arguably the first settlement of the Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths) (Getae) after their migration from Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia) (Scandza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza)) during the first half of the 1st century A.D.

Jordanes relates that the East Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) tribe of Goths were led from Scandza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza) by their king Berig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berig). As soon as they had set foot in the land, they named the area Gothiscandza. They soon moved to the settlements of the Rugians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians) (Ulmerugi, a Germanic tribe which had arrived in the area already before the Goths), who lived on the coast, and they chased them away. Then they defeated their new neighbours, the Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals).

Clearly there is confusion in his writings, ..........east-germanic tribe went from Scandinavia?...................was scandinavia also East-Germanic? ..........were where the Gepids in this relationship,
The settlements of the Gepids would have been at the mouth of the Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula) River, corresponding to the archaeological Wielbark culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture).

Clearly then if think they came from Scandinavia and archeology states they stayed on the Vistula for centuries, then clearly coastl Poland was infested with Goths as per the map I previously provided.

Sile
25-05-14, 04:08
getting info from the I HG expert - Ken Nordveldt ( only in bold)

He says the I2a2a are too pervasive in eastern Europe to have been spread by the Goths. They were definitely
not that numerous in ancient times like today. But were already large enough to conquer most of eastern Europe.
And they indeed were moving around very many indigenous people.

A great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain,
it was basically just their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. But that counts only for the later period. Not when they
migrated, in large numbers, out from Pommerian plains.
While Ken Nordtvedt says: “It seems more likely to me that I1-T2 Z63+ and I1d1 L22+ and P109+ are associated with the Goths.

motzart
25-05-14, 05:25
getting info from the I HG expert - Ken Nordveldt ( only in bold)

He says the I2a2a are too pervasive in eastern Europe to have been spread by the Goths. They were definitely
not that numerous in ancient times like today. But were already large enough to conquer most of eastern Europe.
And they indeed were moving around very many indigenous people.

A great number of different tribes from all over eastern areas joint the Goths as well. And centuries later, when the Goths finally arrived in Spain,
it was basically just their name that arrived the iberian peninsula. But that counts only for the later period. Not when they
migrated, in large numbers, out from Pommerian plains.
While Ken Nordtvedt says: “It seems more likely to me that I1-T2 Z63+ and I1d1 L22+ and P109+ are associated with the Goths.

I disagree with every single point, and that quote came from him a long time ago while the Paleolithic continuity theory had the most support (which is why he is calling I2a1b I2a2a). I think Paleolithic continuity is still a strong model but if we are working outside of that theory then I don't think there is any explanation that comes close to the fit of the Goths.

Doing a little reading back in this thread it looks like Ken was interested in a Serbian origin.. I see a lot of problems with that, especially considering the Study on Haplogroup I being Pre-Slav in Croatia I have referenced before.

Shetop
25-05-14, 05:40
after they started attacking the dacians.........the dacians fled into Roman lands to escape .............so its while Roman empire still existed

Can you provide some source for this, please? And don't forget, I wrote Western Balkans.

Shetop
25-05-14, 05:55
If I have to pick an exact date I will say 376 AD as it is the start of the Gothic War, Pannonia was settled sometime after that and the Goths were there for ~100 years before the establishment of the Ostrogothic Kingdom and their move into Dalmatia.

So basically, you are saying that Goths took control of the Western Balkans after they had established Ostrogothic Kingdom (with which I agree). So today we have predominant I2a-Din in the Western Balkans as a consequence of that, but I2a-Din can be found in traces in Italy, even though the centre of their kingdom was in Italy?

I would say that this is ridiculous.

Sile
25-05-14, 06:08
Can you provide some source for this, please? And don't forget, I wrote Western Balkans.

what does this matter with the discussion.

if you read my theory from previous posts on this thread, i stated I2a Din came either from the Illyrians of central europe heading south into the balkans from year 1000BC to year 400BC inclusive or the Cimmerians from South Ukraine around 700BC arriving in Pannonia BEFORE the sycthians and sarmatians arrived.
I regard goths in majority to be R1a , some I1 and other smaller components

Shetop
25-05-14, 06:22
what does this matter with the discussion.

if you read my theory from previous posts on this thread, i stated I2a Din came either from the Illyrians of central europe heading south into the balkans from year 1000BC to year 400BC inclusive or the Cimmerians from South Ukraine around 700BC arriving in Pannonia BEFORE the sycthians and sarmatians arrived.
I regard goths in majority to be R1a , some I1 and other smaller components

Ok sorry, I thought you support the Gothic theory. I disagree with you too, but lets leave it for later. :smile:

motzart
25-05-14, 07:45
So basically, you are saying that Goths took control of the Western Balkans after they had established Ostrogothic Kingdom (with which I agree). So today we have predominant I2a-Din in the Western Balkans as a consequence of that, but I2a-Din can be found in traces in Italy, even though the centre of their kingdom was in Italy?

I would say that this is ridiculous.

The Goths were never settled in Italy it was a military conquest, the homeland of these people was made in Pannonia. The Ostrogothic kingdom only lasted for 60 years as well so not much time for a lot of population drift especially in one of the most populated areas in Europe at that time.

Bosnia has a population of ~4 million , I2a1b frequency .55 = ~2.2 million
Croatia has a population of ~4 million, I2a1b frequency .37 = ~1.48 million

Italy has a population of ~60 million, I2a1 frequency about 3% but most of that is I2a1a, so frequency 1-2% = 600,000-1.2 million

If you look at the actual numbers it adds up, "trace frequencies" are misleading and sampling done is in its infancy. All that can be said for sure is that there is a lot of I2a1b in the Balkans, the most found in Pannonia/Dalmatia.

I've also posted a study earlier about a 9.4% frequency of I2a1 in Northern Italy(Trento), don't take Maciamo's maps as facts just very rough guesses.

If you want to know exactly why there is little in Italy and more in the northwestern Balkans, the Gothic conquest of Italy was never some genocide against the native inhabitants with the intention of resettlement of the Goths, it was a co-operative effort with the Eastern Roman Empire to re-assert Roman administration (which happened to fail miserably):

Hunnic invasions The rise of the Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns) around 370 overwhelmed the Gothic kingdoms. Many of the Goths migrated into Roman territory in the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), while others remained north of the Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) under Hunnic rule. They became one of the many Hunnic vassals fighting in Europe, as in the Battle of Chalons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chalons) in 451. Several uprisings against the Huns were suppressed. The collapse of Hunnic power in the 450s led to further violent upheaval in the lands north of the Danube, during which most of the Goths resident in the area migrated to the Balkans. It was this group that became known as the Ostrogoths.

Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language) was still spoken sporadically in Crimea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea) as late as the 16th century: the Crimean Gothic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic_language).

Post-Hunnic movements Their recorded history begins with their independence from the remains of the Hunnic Empire following the death of Attila the Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_the_Hun) in 453. Allied with the former vassal and rival, the Gepids and the Ostrogoths led by Theodemir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemir) broke the Hunnic power of Attila's sons in the Battle of Nedao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nedao) in 454.
The Ostrogoths now entered into relations with the Empire, and were settled on lands in Pannonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia). During the greater part of the latter half of the 5th century, the East Goths played in south-eastern Europe nearly the same part that the West Goths played in the century before. They were seen going to and from, in every conceivable relation of friendship and enmity with the Eastern Roman power, until, just as the West Goths had done before them, they passed from the East to the West.

Kingdom in Italy Main article: Ostrogothic Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png/450px-Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf5/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png)
Map of Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy and the Balkans


The greatest of all Ostrogothic rulers, the future Theoderic the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoderic_the_Great) (whose name means "leader of the people") of Ostrogothic Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothic_Kingdom), was born to Theodemir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemir) in or about 454, soon after the Battle of Nedao. His childhood was spent at Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople) as a diplomatic hostage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage),[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths#cite_note-Backman2008-13) where he was carefully educated. The early part of his life was taken up with various disputes, intrigues and wars within the Byzantine empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_empire), in which he had as his rival Theoderic Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoderic_Strabo), a distant relative of Theoderic the Great and son of Triarius. This older but lesser Theoderic seems to have been the chief, not the king, of that branch of the Ostrogoths that had settled within the Empire earlier. Theoderic the Great, as he is sometimes distinguished, was sometimes the friend, sometimes the enemy, of the Empire. In the former case he was clothed with various Roman titles and offices, as patrician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrician_%28ancient_Rome%29) and consul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consul); but in all cases alike he remained the national Ostrogothic king. Theoderic is also known for his attainment of support from the Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church), which he gained by appeasing the Pope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope) in 520. During his reign, Theoderic, who was an Arian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism), allowed freedom of religion, which had not been done before. However, he did try to appease the Pope and tried to keep his alliance with the church strong. He saw the Pope as an authority not only in the church but also over Rome.
Theoderic sought to revive Roman culture and government and in doing so, profited the Italian people.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths#cite_note-14) It was in both characters together that he set out in 488, by commission from the Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) emperor Zeno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_%28emperor%29), to recover Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) from Odoacer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoacer). By 493 Ravenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna) was taken, where Theoderic would set up his capital. It was also at this time that Odoacer was killed by Theoderic's own hand. Ostrogothic power was fully established over Italy, Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily), Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_%28Roman_province%29) and the lands to the north of Italy. In this war[which? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] the Ostrogoths and Visigoths began again to unite, if we may accept the witness of one writer[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] that Theoderic was helped by Visigothic auxiliaries. The two branches of the nation were soon brought much more closely together; after he was forced to become regent of the Visigothic kingdom of Toulouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse), the power of Theoderic was practically extended over a large part of Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul) and over nearly the whole of the Iberian peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula). Theoderic also attempted to forge an alliance with the Frankish and Burgundian kingdoms by means of a series of diplomatic marriages. This strengthening of power eventually led the Byzantine emperor to fear that Theoderic would become too strong, and motivated his subsequent alliance with the Frankish king, Clovis I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I), to counter and ultimately overthrow the Ostrogoths.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Mausoleum_of_Theoderic.JPG/330px-Mausoleum_of_Theoderic.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mausoleum_of_Theoderic.JPG) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf5/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mausoleum_of_Theoderic.JPG)
The mausoleum of Theoderic the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoderic_the_Great) in Ravenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna)


A time of confusion followed the death of Alaric II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaric_II), the son-in-law of Theoderic, at the Battle of Vouillé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vouill%C3%A9). The Ostrogothic king stepped in as the guardian of his grandson Amalaric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalaric), and preserved for him all his Iberian and a fragment of his Gaul dominion. Toulouse passed to the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) but the Goth kept Narbonne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbonne) and its district and Septimania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimania), which was the last part of Gaul held by the Goths and kept the name of Gothia for many ages. While Theoderic lived, the Visigothic kingdom was practically united to his own dominion. He seems also to have claimed a kind of protectorate over the Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) powers generally, and indeed to have practically exercised it, except in the case of the Franks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks).
The Ostrogothic dominion was now again as great in extent as and far more splendid than it could have been in the time of Hermanaric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermanaric); however it was now of a wholly different character. The dominion of Theoderic was not a barbarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian) but a civilized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization) power. His twofold position ran through everything. He was at once national king of the Goths, and successor, though without any imperial titles, of the West Roman emperors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_emperor). The two nations, differing in manners, language and religion, lived side by side on the soil of Italy; each was ruled according to its own law, by the prince who was, in his two separate characters, the common sovereign of both.
The picture of Theoderic's rule is drawn for us in the state papers drawn up, in his name and in the names of his successors, by his Roman minister Cassiodorus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiodorus). The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons. In Theoderic's theory the Goth was the armed protector of the peaceful Roman; the Gothic king had the toil of government, while the Roman consul had the honour. All the forms of the Roman administration went on, and the Roman policy and culture had great influence on the Goths themselves. The rule of the prince over distinct nations in the same land was necessarily despotic; the old Germanic freedom was necessarily lost. Such a system needed a Theoderic to carry it on. It broke in pieces after his death.
War with Rome (535–554) Main article: Gothic War (535–554) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_%28535%E2%80%93554%29)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Theodahad_534_536_Ostrogoth_minted_in_Rome.jpg/330px-Theodahad_534_536_Ostrogoth_minted_in_Rome.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodahad_534_536_Ostrogoth_minted_in_Rome.jp g) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf5/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodahad_534_536_Ostrogoth_minted_in_Rome.jp g)
Coin of Theodahad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodahad) (534-536), minted in Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome). He wears the barbaric moustache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moustache).


Upon the death of Theoderic in 526 the Ostrogoths and Visigoths were again separated. The few instances where they act together after this time are as scattered and incidental as they were before. Amalaric succeeded to the Visigothic kingdom in Iberia and Septimania. Provence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provence) was added to the dominion of the new Ostrogothic king Athalaric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athalaric), the grandson of Theoderic through his daughter Amalasuntha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalasuntha). Both were unable to settle disputes among Gothic elites. Theodahad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodahad), cousin of Amalasuntha and nephew of Theoderic through his sister, took over and slew them; however the usurping ushered in more bloodshed. Three more rulers stepped in during the next five years.
The weakness of the Ostrogothic position in Italy now showed itself. The Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I) always strove to restore as much of the Western Roman Empire as he could and certainly would not pass up the opportunity. In 535, he commissioned Belisarius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius) to attack the Ostrogoths. Belisarius quickly captured Sicily and then crossed into Italy where he captured Naples and Rome in 536 and then marched north, taking Mediolanum (Milan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan)) and the Ostrogoth capital of Ravenna in 540.
At this point Justinian offered the Goths a generous settlement—too generous by far in Belisarius' eyes—the right to keep an independent kingdom in the Northwest of Italy, and the demand that they merely give half of all their treasure to the Empire. Belisarius conveyed the message to the Goths, although he himself withheld from endorsing it. They, on the other hand felt there must be a snare somewhere. The Goths did not trust Justinian, but because Belisarius had been so well-mannered in his conquest they trusted him a little more, and agreed to take the settlement only if Belisarius endorsed it. This condition made for something of an impasse.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Totila_fa_dstruggere_la_citt%C3%A0_di_Firenze.jpg/450px-Totila_fa_dstruggere_la_citt%C3%A0_di_Firenze.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Totila_fa_dstruggere_la_citt%C3%A0_di_Firenze .jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.24wmf5/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Totila_fa_dstruggere_la_citt%C3%A0_di_Firenze .jpg)
Totila razes the walls of Florence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence): illumination from the Chigi ms of Villani's Cronica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Villani).


A faction of the Gothic nobility pointed out that their own king Witiges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witiges), who had just lost, was something of a weakling and they would need a new one. Eraric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eraric), the leader of the group, endorsed Belisarius and the rest of the kingdom agreed, so they offered him their crown. Belisarius was a soldier, not a statesman, and still loyal to Justinian. He made as if to accept the offer, rode to Ravenna to be crowned, and promptly arrested the leaders of the Goths and reclaimed their entire kingdom—no halfway settlements—for the Empire.
This upset Justinian greatly: the Persians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire) had been attacking in the east, and he wanted a stable neutral country separating his western border from the Franks, who weren't so friendly. Belisarius was sent to face the Persians and therefore left John, a Byzantine officer, to govern Italy temporarily.
In 545 Belisarius returned to Italy, where he found the situation had changed greatly. Eraric was slain and the pro-Roman faction of Gothic elite had been toppled. In 541 the Ostrogoths had elected a new leader Totila (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totila); this Goth nationalist and brilliant commander had recaptured all of northern Italy and even driven the Byzantines out of Rome. Belisarius took the offensive, tricked Totila into yielding Rome along the way, but then lost it again after a jealous Justinian, fearful of Belisarius' power, starved him of supplies and reinforcements. Belisarius was forced to go on the defensive, and in 548, Justinian relieved him in favor of the eunuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch_%28court_official%29) general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General) Narses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narses), of whom he was more trustful.
Totila was slain in the Battle of Taginae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taginae) in July 552 and his followers Teia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teia), Aligern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aligern), Scipuar, and Gibal were all killed or surrendered in the Battle of Mons Lactarius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mons_Lactarius) in October 552 or 553. Widin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widin), the last attested member of the Gothic army revolted in late 550s, with minimal military help from the Franks. His uprising was fruitless; the revolt ended with Widin captured and brought to Constantinople for punishment in 561 or 562.
With that final defeat, the remaining Ostrogoths went back north and (re)settled in south Austria. The Ostrogothic name wholly died. The nation had practically evaporated with Theoderic's death. "The leadership of western Europe therefore passed by default to the Franks. Consequently, Ostrogothic failure and Frankish success were crucial for the development of early medieval Europe", for Theoderic had made it "his intention to restore the vigor of Roman government and Roman culture".[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths#cite_note-15) The chance of forming a national state in Italy by the union of Roman and Germanic elements, such as those that arose in Gaul, in Iberia, and in parts of Italy under Lombard rule, was thus lost. As a result the Goths hold a different place in Iberian memory than in Italian memory: In Italy, the Ostrogoths were a momentary invader and ruler, while in Iberia the Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) supplied an important element in the founding of that nation, a fact that has been neither forgotten nor despised. Part of the unconquered region of northern Iberia, the land of Asturias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias), kept for a while the name of Gothia, as did the Gothic possessions in Gaul.

Sile
25-05-14, 07:47
Ok sorry, I thought you support the Gothic theory. I disagree with you too, but lets leave it for later. :smile:

so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

Shetop
25-05-14, 08:23
@motzart you can post the largest post ever but it won't help. Pannonia is not the part of the Western Balkans.
Also you don't need to point me to a correct data or wrong maps, I knew about all those couple of years ago. Italian frequencies are significantly less than those you wrote, but it does not matter...

All I see is twisting the facts because you would rather be a relative of the Goths, than some other people.

Shetop
25-05-14, 08:28
so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

There was no a ceratin name. Those people did not come as some highly organized tribe. Those were people looking for a better land, and what was happening after the fall of the Roman Empire was opening the doors for them.

I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language.

Shetop
25-05-14, 08:44
so you think it was a slavic tribe....name the slavic tribe or tribes that carried this marker then!!!

This is a part of the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

Sile
25-05-14, 09:55
This is a part of the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni

I read it, but I am a bit confused. The map shows sclaveni on the east Balkans ( modern Romania ) and the west balkans has Gepidae ( goths ) , heruli, rugi and suevi all germanic tribes.
did you really refer before to east balkans for I2a din or west balkans?

It also says that the sclaveni are the goths
Goths brought back an advanced culture and thus became the nobility where they went, we can infer that 'Sc' is derived from 'Scandz' meaning Gord/Burgwall (cmpr: Scandinavia) and 'Lev' meaning 'Law/Nation' (cmpr: Danelaw) and 'veni' meaning 'foederati' (cmpr: Venedhi, Tervini). Thus devolved, 'Sclaveni' is to be understood as 'Adherents to the Burg Law'

Shetop
25-05-14, 10:19
I read it, but I am a bit confused. The map shows sclaveni on the east Balkans ( modern Romania ) and the west balkans has Gepidae ( goths ) , heruli, rugi and suevi all germanic tribes.
did you really refer before to east balkans for I2a din or west balkans?

As I wrote above, that wikipedia article is a part of the story. The other part is Slavic settlement in the Western Balkans in the first half of the 7th century.



It also says that the sclaveni are the goths
Goths brought back an advanced culture and thus became the nobility where they went, we can infer that 'Sc' is derived from 'Scandz' meaning Gord/Burgwall (cmpr: Scandinavia) and 'Lev' meaning 'Law/Nation' (cmpr: Danelaw) and 'veni' meaning 'foederati' (cmpr: Venedhi, Tervini). Thus devolved, 'Sclaveni' is to be understood as 'Adherents to the Burg Law'

Someone wrote that as a possibility (which I find very unlikely), but every historian would remind about earlier mentioning of Slavs completely independently from Goths (Ptolemy).

FrankN
25-05-14, 14:06
@motzart you can post the largest post ever but it won't help. Pannonia is not the part of the Western Balkans.
Also you don't need to point me to a correct data or wrong maps, I knew about all those couple of years ago. Italian frequencies are significantly less than those you wrote, but it does not matter...

All I see is twisting the facts because you would rather be a relative of the Goths, than some other people.

Please, Shetop, do us all the favour of acquainting yourself with the basic facts and terminology before posting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_(Roman_province)

Pannonia was an ancient province of the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) bounded north and east by the Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube), coterminous westward with Noricum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum) and upper Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Italy), and southward with Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(Roman_province)) and upper Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia). Pannonia was located over the territory of the present-day western Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), eastern Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), northern Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), north-western Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia), western Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia) and northern Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina).
I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised. Finally, you first ask about details about the Goths, which already have been given a few pages further up in great detail and with various maps, and then claim to have known everything and complain about others writing long posts in reply to your repeated questions.
I for my point am still interested in deploring your original argument, that the I2a-Din distribution relates to a single event rather than a longer migration process, in further detail. But the way you are currently presenting yourself here lets me - unfortunately - doubt that you really know what you are talking about.

Just for the record: Battaglia et al. (2008) has I2a-Din among Italians from Trento at 9.4%. Mozart posted the frequency table from this study, you can find it if you go back 2-3 pages on the thread. Should that be too cumbersome for you, here is the link to the full paper for you to check:
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Shetop
25-05-14, 15:07
Please, Shetop, do us all the favour of acquainting yourself with the basic facts and terminology before posting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia_(Roman_province)

I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised. Finally, you first ask about details about the Goths, which already have been given a few pages further up in great detail and with various maps, and then claim to have known everything and complain about others writing long posts in reply to your repeated questions.
I for my point am still interested in deploring your original argument, that the I2a-Din distribution relates to a single event rather than a longer migration process, in further detail. But the way you are currently presenting yourself here lets me - unfortunately - doubt that you really know what you are talking about.

Just for the record: Battaglia et al. (2008) has I2a-Din among Italians from Trento at 9.4%. Mozart posted the frequency table from this study, you can find it if you go back 2-3 pages on the thread. Should that be too cumbersome for you, here is the link to the full paper for you to check:
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

We learned in our schools that the Balkans is bordered with the Sava river to the North. I think Croatians would confirm this.
And about have Romania ever been slavicised or not, above I gave a link about Sclaveni. If you read it you saw where were Slavs settled before invading Byzantine Empire. Also please, research a bit about Ipotesti-Candesti archaeological culture.
And regarding the Trento 9.4% I have also written my point - I have seen this several years ago. It is just a continuation of what we have in Slovenia today, deserves no special attention. Do you know what is the I2a-Din frequency in the region where city of Ravenna is? I assume you know why am I asking about Ravenna.

I've seen that you are a knowledgeable person, but there are always more details... and I did look into many of them , for the past several years.

gyms
25-05-14, 15:08
Shetop:"I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language."

Great!How do you know that?

Shetop
25-05-14, 15:30
Shetop:"I'm just sure they spoke Slavic language."

Great!How do you know that?

Because there is no other haplogroup in the Balkans which correlates to Slavic languages that good as I2a-Din does today.

Shetop
25-05-14, 15:40
I also recall a recent post of yours where you claimed the Slavs came from Wallachia - which makes perfect sense considering that Wallachia has, for all we know, since Roman times always used a Romanic language and was never slavicised.

It would be strange if you have never seen this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

Ike
26-05-14, 00:53
Ok, what was the language of those Ostrogoths that conquered Rome?

Nobody1
26-05-14, 02:25
Ok, what was the language of those Ostrogoths that conquered Rome?

The Codex Argenteus was written by the Ostrogoths themselves (i.e. Ostrogothic literature) and thus ultimately provides the answer to that question [Answer: Germanic];

And the Ostrogoths/Theoderic did not conquer Rome (not the capitol since the Tetrarchy late 3rd cen AD) they conquered Ravenna (from Odoaker) late 5th cen AD;

LeBrok
26-05-14, 03:14
The Codex Argenteus was written by the Ostrogoths themselves (i.e. Ostrogothic literature) and thus ultimately provides the answer to that question [Answer: Germanic];

And the Ostrogoths/Theoderic did not conquer Rome (not the capitol since the Tetrarchy late 3rd cen AD) they conquered Ravenna (from Odoaker) late 5th cen AD;
I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

motzart
26-05-14, 04:34
I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

The Slav theory is weakest and specifically disproved in this Scientific Study http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Barac2003.pdf

There are at least 2 papers that set out to prove I2a Din is paleolithic in the Balkans by explicitly proving that it is NOT slavic.

This is the other one.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.long#T2

Whatever I2a Din is or how it spread, it was not because of the Slavic migration. Slavs were an R1a people who filled the void left by the Huns, surely they assimilated some left over I2a Din from previous settlements but it isn't the reason we see it in high frequencies in the Balkans today. I2a Din in the Balkans would have been a Roman speaking people prior to the Slavic invasions. I'd love to hear anything that isn't a re-visitation of the Slavic theory at this point, either that or show me a flaw in the Croatian island paper (GOOD LUCK).

Nobody1
26-05-14, 05:02
I have no idea why people question their Germanic heritage. Every written word they left is Germanic. If they were Slavs why they wrote in Germanic?

There is some possibility that Ostrogoths brought a big contingent of Slavs into Balkans, as mercenaries or allies. The first wave of I2a-Dinaric?

Thats possible;
The Hun-invasion and its aftermath (Attila's death/Nedao 454) left chaos and the major movements (peoples) during the Migration-era (Völkerwanderung) were patched together by a multitude of remnant peoples as noted in example Paul the Deacon (II/XXVI) 'Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind' the other treks were akin to that scenario;

Slavs/Balto-Slavs (Venedae) could have also been a part of the Ostrogoths even before the Huns with the Amaler/Greutungen expansion; During the Migration-era the Rugians joined the Ostrogoths and later even the Bittuguren-Huns joined the Ostrogoths; The Ostrogoths obviously remained as the dominant element amongst the other remnant pops. and kept their Germanic language intact; There were numerous waves of Slavs into the Balkans as a part of the Ostrogoths would just be one of them; What Hg's the Goths/Ostrogoths possessed and manifested into modern pops. will only be known once they will finally test some Ostrogothic corpses (from the various locations); I would not even be surprised if I2a-Din or ancestral I2-P37.2 is Paleolithic/Mesolithic in the Balkans; I wait for the corpses;

Sile
26-05-14, 10:59
IMO, the only truly Germanic-balto-slavic people mix where the Bastanae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

Scholars hold divergent theories about the ethnicity of the Bastarnae. The mainstream view, following what appears to be the most authoritative view among ancient scholars, is that they were Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-20) However others hold that they were mixed Celtic/Germanic,[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-22) or mixed Germanic/Sarmatian. A fringe theory is that they were Proto-Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-ReferenceA-8)


Lands where from Pomerania to the black sea of moldovia

Ike
26-05-14, 15:54
There are at least 2 papers that set out to prove I2a Din is paleolithic in the Balkans by explicitly proving that it is NOT slavic.

If it's paleolithic, then "the grays" (Hg I) were in control of the whole central Europe before the arrival of Neolithic farmers and R1?
http://i58.tinypic.com/i5rm2b.jpg


Considering the current spread where I2 peaks on Dinaric Alps and Carpathian mountains, it looks like they had been controlling the whole Balkans and started running to mountains when various ethnic groups entered Europe from the direction of Dardanelles, Maritsa and Danube.

motzart
27-05-14, 01:31
If it's paleolithic, then "the grays" (Hg I) were in control of the whole central Europe before the arrival of Neolithic farmers and R1?
http://i58.tinypic.com/i5rm2b.jpg


Considering the current spread where I2 peaks on Dinaric Alps and Carpathian mountains, it looks like they had been controlling the whole Balkans and started running to mountains when various ethnic groups entered Europe from the direction of Dardanelles, Maritsa and Danube.

There is no doubt that Haplogroup I is Paleolithic and was spread all over Europe prior to the arrival of other HGs except maybe G/N... and C, in some areas, Sweden has to be all I though. I can see there being a lack of Paleolothic I in some south & western European areas.

The strange part is that the distribution and spread of the modern day dominant subclades of I are very downstream implying a late expansion from a previous bottleneck.

If our current hotspots of I are the result of paleolithic people simply being where they have always been the variance in subclades should be different, IJ* and I* is found in Northern Iran and the Caucauses implying that I or IJ spread in to Europe through the Caucauses rather than the Balkans. In the Balkans we see a lot of I but it is all far downstream clades of I1 and I2a1.

I think that our current distribution of I clades has to be a result of later post-indo European expansion with Germanic tribes. Everywhere we see Germanic languages spoken we find I DNA, the inverse is not true though as we see lots of I in non Germanic speaking areas. The fact that there are no Germanic language speaking areas without a significant amount of I Y DNA I think gives support to the fact that the Germanic languages are heavily influenced by the original non-indo european language of the I HGs, this fits with the Germanic language substrate hypothesis which states that 1/3 of the words in the German language do not have Indo-European origins.

FrankN
27-05-14, 02:03
I think it is time to recapitulate the facts:

The highest I2a-Din frequency has been measured by Battaglia et al. (2008) for "Bosnian Croats" at 73.3 %. While the text does not give details on where the samples were taken, the enclosed map suggests Mostar as sampling region.
The next highest frequency is reported for the island of Hvar by Barac et al. (2003) at 65.9 %.
Pericic et al. (2005) report Herzegovina at 63.8 %. This relates to combined sampling from Mostar and Siroki Brijeg. On the assumption that the frequency in Mostar is around 70%, as suggested by the Battaglia result, we can infer a frequency around 55% in Siroki Brijeg. Frequencies above 50% have furthermore been reported from Zenica in central Bosnia (52.2%, Pericic et al.), and the islands of Brac (55.1 %) and Korcula (53.7 %).
Next comes "Bosniacs", reported by Battaglia et al. at 45.3% - the enclosed map suggests Sarajevo as sampling location. Western Montenegro may have similar frequencies, as is discussed here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26949-montenegro-dna.
Frequencies around 30% have been reported for Bosnian Serbs (34.6 %, Battaglia, the enclosed map suggests sampling around Tuzla), mainland Croatia (Battaglia 33.7%, Pericic after deeper genotyping of Barac's data 32.2%), Belgrade (29.2%, Pericic), Skopje (29.1%, Pericic), Krk (28.4%, Barac), and Ossijek Croats (27.6%, Battaglia). For the Croatian mainland, Barac mentions a higher I frequency in the Southern and Eastern parts.

That is a strikingly regular, almost concentric pattern with its "epicentre" close to Mostar, and frequencies above or close to 50% in an area that is approximately demarked by the cities of Herceg Novi, Sarajevo, Zenica and Split.

Now, let's take a look how the high I2a-Din distribution has been affecting other relevant Y DNA haplogroups:

E-M78 has obviously been largely unaffected by the I2a Din concentration. Generally regarded as Albanian marker on the Balkans, the E-M78 frequency peaks at 45.6% among Kosovo Albanians (Perisic) and 36% among FYROM-Albanians (Battaglia). (South-)Westward from there, it declines steadily from a 27% average (with a westwards decline) in Montenegro, 20.4% in Belgrade (Pericic), 19.8% in Tuzla (Battaglia), 13.1% in Sarajevo (Battaglia), 10.1% in Zenica (Pericic), some 9% around Mostar (Battaglia, Pericic) to 5.6% on the Crotian mainland (Pericic, Barac). The Croatian islands of Brac, Hvar and Korcula have a somewhat lower frequency of around 4%, but that falls with measurement tolerance.
I1-M253, the Germanic marker, is generally reported around 5% throughout the region, e.g. 6.2% in Montenegro, 5.3% in Belgrade, 5.7% (Battagla) and 5.1% (Pericic) with FYROM Albanians, 4.7% with Kosovo Albanians, 4.8% in Sarajevo. Unfortunately, Battagla and Pericic differ when it comes to Herzegovina and mainland Croatia. Battaglia has no I1 in Mostar, but 7.9% in Croatia (excluding Osijek), while Pericic has Herzegovina at 4.95% and mainland Croatia at just 2.8%. Both, however, point towards a drop in Northern & Central Bosnia (2.5% in Tuzla, 1.5% in Zenica). Rootsi et al. (2005) reports 5.3% for the Croatian mainland (312 samples) and 2.0% for Bosnians (91 samples). In summary, with the possible exception of Nothern & Central Bosnia, especially the Zenica area, the I2a Din frequency pattern does not seem to have influenced the rather constant I1 distribution across the area.
R1a, generally regarded as Slavic marker, OTOH, falls pronouncedly from the 30-35% level as observed among Slovenes, the Croatian mainland and Macedonian Greeks. The R1a decline on the Balkans is generally correlated to more E-M78. Thus Kosovo and FYROM Albanians have the lowest frequencies of only some 2%. Belgrade's relatively low R1a share of 15,9% may as well still be related to a higher E-M78 share there..
Hovewer, in the I2a-Din core area, the negative correlation between R1a and E-M78 breaks. Here, R1a frequencies range as low as 8.7% on Brac and 12% in Mostar (Battaglia) and the Herzegowina (Periric), respectively, while E-M78 frequencies are also quite low (though not as low as on the Croatian mainland).
R1b, generally seen as IE or Celitc marker, is affected most. While around 15%-18% among Croatians, Albanians and Greek Macedonians, and 11% in Belgrade and Tuzla, it drops to below 4% in Sarajevo (3.6%), the Herzegovina (3.6%) and Mostar (2.2%), Korcula (1.5%), Zenica (1.4%), and Hvar (1.1%).


I wonder how the I2a-Din pattern could have been brought about by Slavic expansion. More specifically:

How could this expansion have strongly affected R1b, but left E-M78 and I1 untouched?
Why would this expansion have led to such a strong concentration of I2a Din around Mostar, while reducing, instead of simultaneously enhancing, R1a in the area?


To me, it rather looks like a traditional co-existence of I2a-Din (more north-westwards) and E-M78 (more south-eastwards) that has been overformed by successive incursions of R1b (Celts), I1 (Goths, Heruli etc.) and Slavs (R1a), with the Goths and Heruli mostly sparing out Central Bosnia, while Celts hardly and Slavs only to a limited extent made it to Herzegovina and the adjacent Dalmatian coast.

That would point to Palaeolithic continuity, if there weren't the TMRCA and diversity issues ported out by Sparkey. I don't feel qualified to comment on the former. As concerns I2a-Din diversity, however, both Rootsi and Periric report it to be high in Bosnia and Herzegovina, respectively. In fact, both suggest diversity to be highest there, within a wide area of high diversity that comprises most of central-eastern Europe from the Czech Republic towards Western Ukraine (Rootsi even has the high diversity area stretching as far to the North-East as Estonia, but his analysis includes other I2 clades aside from I2a-Din). The following picture shows I2a-Din frequency distributions (A/C) and the corresponding variance surfaces (B/D) that Periric determined from own sampling in the Balkans (A/B) and by incorporating results from other studies across Europe (C/D):
6448
In short, after reviewing available research, I think that I2a-Din has already been present in the Dinaric Alps before the Slavic expansion, probably already before Roman times. The question is just whether it originated there, or expanded from further north, maybe the Carpathians around the sources of Dniester and Tisza, sometimes in the Neolithic, the bronze or the iron age. Judged by the diversity maps, an arrival by sea looks quite unlikely.

Sources:
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf (Periric)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/ (Rootsi)

Alan
27-05-14, 02:20
http://i58.tinypic.com/i5rm2b.jpg




That map is wrong in so many ways.

motzart
27-05-14, 03:02
In short, after reviewing available research, I think that I2a-Din has already been present in the Dinaric Alps before the Slavic expansion, probably already before Roman times. The question is just whether it originated there, or expanded from further north, maybe the Carpathians around the sources of Dniester and Tisza, sometimes in the Neolithic, the bronze or the iron age. Judged by the diversity maps, an arrival by sea looks quite unlikely.


Thanks for a great post FrankN, I really enjoy the thought you put in to it and read it thoroughly.

As to your quote about an origin point, I would like to refer to the Battaglia study's section on Variance. Greater variance in an area pointing to a clade being older there of course. I-M423 being older in Western Ukraine than Croatia/Bosnia where we find it in greater frequencies today. This matches my Goth theory.

http://i.imgur.com/cqtDMcm.jpg

Shetop
27-05-14, 07:16
I wonder how the I2a-Din pattern could have been brought about by Slavic expansion. More specifically:

How could this expansion have strongly affected R1b, but left E-M78 and I1 untouched?
Why would this expansion have led to such a strong concentration of I2a Din around Mostar, while reducing, instead of simultaneously enhancing, R1a in the area?



1. There are two different R1b populations in the Balkans.
The older one R1b-M269(xL51) which has nothing to do with Celts and its distribution pattern is almost identical with E-V13 (you wrote E-M78 which is ancestral to E-V13). They even correlate in Italy.
The second one is R1b-U152, which indeed could be connected to Celts, and as you correctly noticed it is significantly more frequent in Western Croatia and Slovenia. This haplogroup is more interesting because it is young enough to be one more argument for late arrival of I2a-Din. It clearly drops in frequency in the area where I2a-Din settled, and that can be easily explained with I2a-Din coming after R1b-U152.

These two mentioned R1b populations have to be analysed independently.

And at the end I don't quite understand your first question, because I see opposite - all these are affected: E-V13, R1b-M269(xL51) and R1b-U152. If you are asking why are E-V13 and R1b-M269(xL51) less frequent West of I2a-Din, it is because when I2a-Din came, E-V13 and R1b-M269(xL51) retreated towards Southeast.


2. Because I2a-Din and R1a were never 50:50 mix. I2a-Din was always more frequent as you go South (but was not present in the Balkans until Early Middle Ages). I see nothing amazing there.

gyms
27-05-14, 10:58
I seems to have a mainly West Caucasus distribution as well; this is a common European haplogroup; it has quite elevated frequencies among the Andis and Kara Nogays. It would be interesting to discover some historical correlate for the presence of I in Kara Nogays but not Kuban Nogays and in Andis but not in most of the NE Caucasus
.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html

Sile
27-05-14, 20:51
I seems to have a mainly West Caucasus distribution as well; this is a common European haplogroup; it has quite elevated frequencies among the Andis and Kara Nogays. It would be interesting to discover some historical correlate for the presence of I in Kara Nogays but not Kuban Nogays and in Andis but not in most of the NE Caucasus
.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html

correct me if I am wrong, but didn't GHIJKLT (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_GHIJKLT%28Y-DNA%29&action=edit&redlink=1) all start around the east Caspian sea area? Were they all united and came from F haplogroup?

Ike
28-05-14, 04:20
The second one is R1b-U152, which indeed could be connected to Celts, and as you correctly noticed it is significantly more frequent in Western Croatia and Slovenia. This haplogroup is more interesting because it is young enough to be one more argument for late arrival of I2a-Din. It clearly drops in frequency in the area where I2a-Din settled, and that can be easily explained with I2a-Din coming after R1b-U152.

But how can you know for sure that the whole area wasn't inhabited with I2a-Din, and when R1b-U152 came from the north, I2a-Din slowly retreated to the mountains?

Shetop
28-05-14, 09:29
But how can you know for sure that the whole area wasn't inhabited with I2a-Din, and when R1b-U152 came from the north, I2a-Din slowly retreated to the mountains?

Most of the Balkans are mountains. Actually if you look more careful you will see that I2a-Din settled on what can be considered the best land. Dalmatian and Herzegovian fields, plains in Macedonia etc...

doku
28-05-14, 12:53
That is not true. My background is in Herzegovina. It is the least populated part of the Balkans together with Montenegro. It is the hottest place in Europe. I do not know why the Slavs came there from southern Polish and Ukraine :shocked:? There is a much better place for life .

Shetop
28-05-14, 13:20
That is not true. My background is in Herzegovina. It is the least populated part of the Balkans together with Montenegro. It is the hottest place in Europe. I do not know why the Slavs came there from southern Polish and Ukraine :shocked:? There is a much better place for life .

Then you may know better where do todays inhabitants of Sarajevo originate from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sarajevo#Early_Ottoman_Era

doku
28-05-14, 14:07
Most of Herzegovina course. It is a favorite joke in Sarajevo :laughing:.
What you want say with a link :thinking:? I living in Sarajevo and I dont need any explanation to any wiki.

Shetop
28-05-14, 14:18
Most of Herzegovina course. It is a favorite joke in Sarajevo :laughing:.
What you want say with a link :thinking:? I living in Sarajevo and I dont need any explanation to any wiki.

It is for the other people on the forum...

Ike
28-05-14, 14:49
Most of the Balkans are mountains. Actually if you look more careful you will see that I2a-Din settled on what can be considered the best land. Dalmatian and Herzegovian fields, plains in Macedonia etc...

I don't quite consider it 'the best land'. Maybe the best land to hide, or the best land where invaders will never go. Winters are cold as hell, and there are last remainings of primeval forests in Europe, which looks like this:
http://sutjeska.design21th.com/slike/clanci/images/Perucica3.jpg


Why did Fourth and Fifth enemy offensives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Enemy_Offensives) ended up with partisans surrounded in that exact area?

mihaitzateo
28-05-14, 15:02
I don't quite consider it 'the best land'. Maybe the best land to hide, or the best land where invaders will never go. Winters are cold as hell, and there are last remainings of primeval forests in Europe, which looks like this:
http://sutjeska.design21th.com/slike/clanci/images/Perucica3.jpg


Why did Fourth and Fifth enemy offensives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Enemy_Offensives) ended up with partisans surrounded in that exact area?
Lol,winters are so cold in Balkans?
What about winters in Russia than?
As for those massive forests ,are quite nice to live near ,you have wood to build houses,places to raise animals and so on.

doku
28-05-14, 15:04
Yes you're right other people must know. This is also good link that explains the present population of Sarajevo .
*ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

Male population of Sarajevo has over 50% I2a din

Shetop
28-05-14, 15:21
Yes you're right other people must know. This is also good link that explains the present population of Sarajevo .
*ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

Male population of Sarajevo has over 50% I2a din

I think that when you said that the most of Sarajevo inhabitants originate from Herzegovina was much more valuable for the discussion.

Shetop
28-05-14, 15:22
I don't quite consider it 'the best land'. Maybe the best land to hide, or the best land where invaders will never go. Winters are cold as hell, and there are last remainings of primeval forests in Europe, which looks like this:
http://sutjeska.design21th.com/slike/clanci/images/Perucica3.jpg


I don't see any people living there.

mihaitzateo
28-05-14, 17:02
I don't see any people living there.
You think steppes were a much better place to live?
This was indeed one of the best places to live in Europe,together with high mountains from Sardinia,Austria,Switzerland and other mountainous places.
In this places you were protected by the invaders ,you were protected by floods and other extreme weather.
Besides,food was very easy to get,just go and hunt something or go and fish something in the rivers,mushrooms in the forest and so on.

FrankN
28-05-14, 18:45
Question to the Bosnians, Croatians, Serbians and Montenegrins here on the Forum: Could you provide us with some more detail about the Old Vlachs (Stari Vlah), Black Vlachs, and Morlachs ? Who were they, where did they settle, and how long did they preserve their vulgar Latin (Vlach) language? The English Wikipedia article just starts with the 14th century, and focuses on the 18th/19th century. The German article mentions that the Morlachs preserved their Romanic language into the medieval period, without providing further detail. The only half-way decent discussion that I have found so far is http://web.archive.org/web/20071227185752/http://www.geocities.com/serban_marin/brezeanu2000.html

Ike
28-05-14, 20:02
I don't see any people living there.

Agree, but that is where the peak of I2a-Din is. The more hostile terrain, more I2 as I see it.



Lol,winters are so cold in Balkans?
What about winters in Russia than?
As for those massive forests ,are quite nice to live near ,you have wood to build houses,places to raise animals and so on.

You're comparing Russia? But why? Sarajevo is the same latitude like Toulouse, and it has climate of Kiev.

Shetop
28-05-14, 20:07
As far as I investigated I could not put together a comprehensive story about the origin of the Vlachs. The way I see it, is that it is covered by the darkness of the Middle Ages. So maybe someone else could try...

mihaitzateo
28-05-14, 20:15
Romanian ,that is spoken by Vlachs,is not Vulgar Latin,who told you that,lol?
It is having at least 20% of the words cognates to Slavic and have resemblances in grammar,plenty,to Macedonian language besides Latin.

FrankN
28-05-14, 21:04
Romanian ,that is spoken by Vlachs,is not Vulgar Latin,who told you that,lol?
It is having at least 20% of the words cognates to Slavic and have resemblances in grammar,plenty,to Macedonian language besides Latin.
I wasn't talking about Romanian. I looked for more information about the Old Vlachs and Black Vlachs (Morlachs), living in Stari Vlah (eastern Bosnia, west-central Serbia, Western Montenegro), and somewhere in the hinterland of the Dalmatian coast, respectively. Apparently, slavisation of these areas took only place during the late Medieval, which might imply substantial population continuity and only limited Slavic population inflow during the 6th-10th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stari_Vlah

Stari Vlah (Стари Влах, pronounced [stâːriː vlâx] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Serbo-Croatian)) is part of Priboj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priboj), Nova Varoš (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Varo%C5%A1), Prijepolje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prijepolje), Užice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C5%BEice), Čajetina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cajetina), and Arilje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arilje), which is part of the Zlatibor District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatibor_District), and Ivanjica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanjica), which is part of Moravica District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravica_District)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia

The inhabitants of Dalmatia are culturally subdivided into two or three groups. The urban families of the coastal cities, sometimes known as Fetivi,[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia#cite_note-Bousfield-13) are culturally akin to the inhabitants of the Dalmatian islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_islands) (known derogatorily as Boduli). The two are together distinct, in the Mediterranean aspects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_culture) of their culture, from the more numerous inhabitants of the Zagora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagora_(Croatia)), the hinterland, referred to (sometimes derogatorily) as the Vlaji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaji).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia#cite_note-Bousfield-13) The latter are historically more influenced by Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_the_Ottoman_Empire), merging almost seamlessly at the border with the Herzegovinian Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) and southern Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) in general.

FrankN
28-05-14, 21:43
Wikimedia has this extract from a map that displays the Herzegovina before the Turkish invasions. Source: Historijska Karta Bosna (1935) author: Sastavio prof. Marko Vego.
The various Vlachs (Vlasi) inhabiting the area are indicated in red script.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Vlachs_of_Herzegovina_and_Montenegro_during_the_Mi ddle_Ages.jpg/800px-Vlachs_of_Herzegovina_and_Montenegro_during_the_Mi ddle_Ages.jpg

http://researchomnia.blogspot.de/2013_12_01_archive.html has a longer article on the issue. It cites nobody less than Sir Arthur Evans:

Politically the country outside the limits of the still Roman coast-towns was by Constantine (Porphyrogenitus)'s time in the hands of Slavonic Zupans, but side by side with the dominant race the older inhabitants of the land continued to inhabit the Dinaric glens and Alpine pastures. The relics of the Roman provincials who survived the Slavonic conquest of Illyricum were divided, in Dalmatia at all events, into two distinct classes, the citizens of the coast-towns, who retained their municipal and ecclesiastical institutions and something of Roman civilization under the aegis of Byzantium, and the Alpine population of the interior, the descendants for the most part of Romanized Illyrian clansmen recruited by the expropriated coloni of the municipia, or at least that part of them who had been forced to give up fixed agricultural pursuits for a semi-nomad pastoral life. Both classes spoke the Latin language, approaching, in various stages of degradation, the Romance variety still spoken by the Rouman population of parts of Macedonia and the Danubian provinces; and both were indiscriminately spoken of by their Slavonic neighbours as Vlachs, or Mavrovlachs: Romans, or Black Romans (Morlachs)

From the same article, a reproduced Hungarian map that shows Stari Vlah and the adjacent "Romanina Planina" in Western Serbia / Eastern Bosnia.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QoOOdHOMzlc/UrjyjxJ5L6I/AAAAAAAAAD8/jdQapzmWyD4/s1600/MAGYAR%257E1.JPG

Ike
28-05-14, 23:59
They can be anything. Everyone that did not feel Slavic and refused to learn the new language were probably considered Vlach. I guess a major mix of all Hgs.

http://www.yeni.org/yeni/images/stories/nationalfeiertag%20aromunen_1.jpg

motzart
29-05-14, 01:57
There is a study done on Vlach Y Dna and mtDNA you can find here

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

They did sampling for 5 different Vlach populations in the Balkans, I calculated the averages for these 5 populations, here is the "Vlach Average" for the sampled populations. I won't post the whole table you can find it in the study.





Y-chromosome (N)
Vlach Average


I-M170
23.36%


J2-M172
23.28%


R1b-PN25
22.84%


E3b1-M78
15.58%


R1a1-M17
7.62%


G-M201
3.46%


K(xP)-M9
1.90%


C-RPS4Y711
0.96%


J(x2)-12f2
0.52%


E3b2-M81
0.46%


E1-M33
0.00%


E3b3-M123
0.00%


H-M69
0.00%


R1*-M173×(R1a,R1b)
0.00%

FrankN
29-05-14, 04:45
There is a study done on Vlach Y Dna and mtDNA you can find here

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

They did sampling for 5 different Vlach populations in the Balkans, I calculated the averages for these 5 populations, here is the "Vlach Average" for the sampled populations. I won't post the whole table you can find it in the study.






Y-chromosome (N)

Vlach Average



I-M170

23.36%



J2-M172

23.28%



R1b-PN25

22.84%



E3b1-M78

15.58%



R1a1-M17

7.62%



G-M201

3.46%



K(xP)-M9

1.90%



C-RPS4Y711

0.96%



J(x2)-12f2

0.52%



E3b2-M81


0.46%









I had already been aware of the study. Unfortunately, it only covers the still romanophone Vlach communities on the Eastern Balkans, not the Dinaric Alps where Romanic dialects ceased to exist between the 15th and 18th century. Since the study has discovered signs of genetical drift in several of the analysed Vlach populations, I am not sure if those frequencies are really helpful to establish the origin of I2a-Din. It only confirms I2a-Din is also found in substantial amounts in non-slavophone communities, but we knew that already from Romania and Moldova.

What I am more interested in is whether there is historical evidence of massive early medieval Slavic immigration into Herzegovina that would have brought I2a-Din there in large amounts. At the moment, all I find is signs of substantial "native" (Roman & pre-Roman) population, which only gradually was slavicised over many centuries.

motzart
29-05-14, 05:32
What I am more interested in is whether there is historical evidence of massive early medieval Slavic immigration into Herzegovina that would have brought I2a-Din there in large amounts. At the moment, all I find is signs of substantial "native" (Roman & pre-Roman) population, which only gradually was slavicised over many centuries.

The fact that R1a is found much less in Vlachs than in the Balkans in General and that I2a Din is found in the same frequency is all the evidence you need that I2a Din was NOT brought to the Balkans by the Slavs.

kamani
29-05-14, 11:40
The fact that R1a is found much less in Vlachs than in the Balkans in General and that I2a Din is found in the same frequency is all the evidence you need that I2a Din was NOT brought to the Balkans by the Slavs.
You're saying that I2a-din came in the Balkans sometime before the slavs and that the slavic migrations were mostly R1a. And somehow I2a-Din changed their language and geo-political alliances while they were being culturally slavicized.

I don't know if you're right, but your reasoning does go along with a couple of other things. One being why slavic-speaking Balkan people are closer genetically to Romanians, Italians and Albanians than to Russians or Poles. Another being why Albanians have almost no East-European admixture on 23AndMe, even-though their I2a-din can go up to 15%.
However, assuming I2a-din came before the slavs, it must have been only slightly before, because this haplogroup is very rare in Italy, and that is a dead give-away that it is young in the west-Balkans.

gyms
29-05-14, 12:12
Y chromosome variation in 457 Croatian samples was studied using 16 SNPs/indel and eight STR loci. High frequency of haplogroup I in Croatian populations and the phylogeographic pattern in its background STR diversity over Europe make Adriatic coast one likely source of the recolonization of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. The higher frequency of I in the southern island populations is contrasted with higher frequency of group R1a chromosomes in the northern island of Krk and in the mainland. R1a frequency, while low in Greeks and Albanians, is highest in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian populations and could be a sign of the Slavic impact in the Balkan region. Haplogroups J, G and E that can be related to the spread of farming characterize the minor part (12.5%) of the Croatian paternal lineages. In one of the southern island (Hvar) populations, we found a relatively high frequency (14%) of lineages belonging to P*(xM173) cluster, which is unusual for European populations. Interestingly, the same population also harbored mitochondrial haplogroup F that is virtually absent in European populations – indicating a connection with Central Asian populations, possibly the Avars.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html

Shetop
29-05-14, 12:16
The fact that R1a is found much less in Vlachs than in the Balkans in General and that I2a Din is found in the same frequency is all the evidence you need that I2a Din was NOT brought to the Balkans by the Slavs.

That can't be an evidence only an argument.
It is also very week argument for what you are saying.

It can only be a solid argument for claiming that not all I2a-Din is brought by Slavs, but some of I2a-Din could possibly originate from old Dacians. And it very much depends on that if all Vlachs in the Balkans show increased I2a-Din, and if they eventually do, did they come from what is today Romania, slightly before or after the Slavs, or maybe even at the same time. And at the end, even then it is not clear what percentage of I2a-Din would be Slavic and what percentage would be Vlachs.

The best thing that could happen to you is to forget about R1a=Slavs . Then you would see things much better.

gyms
29-05-14, 14:44
The origin of the Romanians has been for centuries subject to scholarly debate, often driven by political bias. Two basic theories can be differentiated; one theory posits Daco-Romanian continuity and the other is an immigrationist theory, but interim views also exist. Scholars of the first school argue that the Romanians are mainly descended from the Daco-Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daco-Romans), a people emerging through the cohabitation of the native Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) and the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language)-speaking Roman colonists in the Roman province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province) of Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia) north of the river Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube). Accordingly, they suggest that a significant part of the territory of modern Romania has continuously been inhabited by the Romanians' ancestors. Followers of the opposite view argue that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia) and other provinces south of the Danube. Consequently, they propose a northward migration of the Romanians across the river.

Gottfried Schramm,[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997326-25) Herbert J. Izzo[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIzzo1986144-145-26) and other scholars who support the immigrationist theory propose that the Romanians descended from the Romanized inhabitants of the provinces to the south of the Danube, which were under Roman rule for more than 500 years.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBoia200147.2C_113.2C_114-27) Following the collapse of the empire's frontiers around 620, some of this population moved south to regions where Latin had not been widely spoken.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997304.2C_309-28) Others took refuge in the Balkan Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Mountains) where they adopted an itinerant form of sheep- and goat-breeding.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997326-25) Their mobile lifestyle contributed to their spread in the mountainous zones.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997326-25)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMakkai1994186-29)
The Romanians' ancestors came into close contact with sedentary Slavic-speaking communities in the 10th century at the latest.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997333-30) They adopted Old Church Slavonic liturgy in the First Bulgarian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), and preserved it along with their Orthodox Christian faith even after their northward migration across the Danube began.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchramm1997336-337-31) They were first employed as border guards along the southeastern frontiers of the Kingdom of Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary) and later settled in other sparsely inhabited regions as well.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEngel2001119.2C_268.2C_270-32) Although sheep-breeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep_breeding) remained their principal economic activity for centuries,[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEngel2001119-33) their permanent settlements are also documented from the 1330s.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Romanians#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMakkai1994191-34)

Ike
29-05-14, 15:04
It only confirms I2a-Din is also found in substantial amounts in non-slavophone communities, but we knew that already from Romania and Moldova.
How do we know that? How are you sure that I2a-Din of that area didn't speak Slavic language, before they were Romanized?


The fact that R1a is found much less in Vlachs than in the Balkans in General and that I2a-Din is found in the same frequency is all the evidence you need that I2a Din was NOT brought to the Balkans by the Slavs.
Exactly, but only if it is the same. My only question is about that I-M170. Do we have more data on that? It could be all different clade...

sparkey
29-05-14, 17:21
There is a study done on Vlach Y Dna and mtDNA you can find here

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full

They did sampling for 5 different Vlach populations in the Balkans, I calculated the averages for these 5 populations, here is the "Vlach Average" for the sampled populations. I won't post the whole table you can find it in the study.






Y-chromosome (N)

Vlach Average



I-M170

23.36%



J2-M172

23.28%



R1b-PN25

22.84%



E3b1-M78

15.58%



R1a1-M17

7.62%



G-M201

3.46%



K(xP)-M9

1.90%



C-RPS4Y711

0.96%



J(x2)-12f2

0.52%



E3b2-M81

0.46%



E1-M33

0.00%



E3b3-M123

0.00%



H-M69

0.00%



R1*-M173×(R1a,R1b)

0.00%


































































Thanks for this, although I'm concerned that the "AAA" (Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania) population is showing too much of an internal founder effect to be helpful when added to an average. Not just their Haplogroup I, but their R1b as well, are atypically high at the expense of other haplogroups. Take a look at the median joining network graph in the same paper. See how the AAA colors make big circles? That's because almost all Haplogroup I and R1b in the AAA population are very closely related. It's like almost the whole tribe descends from two fairly recent guys, one who carried Haplogroup I and one who carried R1b.

"AMK" also is a bit troubling if you want to make points about I2a-Din, as many of their Haplogroup I samples cluster away from the presumably I2a-Din group, and they seem to have minor founder effects on their R1b and J2. "AAD" isn't so bad with respect to I2a-Din, but they have a clear founder effect on J2.

It's tough to remove all these variables, but taking away the worst offender, AAA, gives an 18.7% average Haplogroup I and 9.5% average R1a.

FrankN
29-05-14, 21:35
The fact that R1a is found much less in Vlachs than in the Balkans in General and that I2a Din is found in the same frequency is all the evidence you need that I2a Din was NOT brought to the Balkans by the Slavs.

Since I1 also appears to be hardly present in the Vlachs, the same line of thought would eliminate Goths and Heruli.


My only question is about that I-M170. Do we have more data on that? It could be all different clade...
That study has an extensive annex with all the individual markers that have been determined (load the pdf!). Anybody with more knowledge on how to analyse sub-clades than I have is invited to check that data. Would be nice to throw out any I2c, and also have a better idea of how much I1 can be found among the Vlachs.


How are you sure that I2a-Din of that area didn't speak Slavic language, before they were Romanized?
I am not any more sure about the language I2a-Din spoke in Romania and Moldova before Romanisation, than about their language in the Dinaric Alps before Slavisation. I just wanted to say that today's linguistic patterns alone are not really helpful to decide the question at hand.

motzart
30-05-14, 00:57
Since I1 also appears to be hardly present in the Vlachs, the same line of thought would eliminate Goths and Heruli.


Yes you are correct that leaves us with I2a1b as the Goths.

FrankN
30-05-14, 01:08
Yes you are correct that leaves us with I2a1b as the Goths.

Who, then, brought I1 in frequencies around 5% to the Balkans, if not the Goths? Schliemann and few other 19th century German archaeologists?:innocent:

motzart
30-05-14, 02:01
Who, then, brought I1 in frequencies around 5% to the Balkans, if not the Goths? Schliemann and few other 19th century German archaeologists?:innocent:

I think you are on to something, since you seem to be on a roll with the explanations, tell me how the slavs brought I2a1b to Mesolithic Sweden in 6000 B.C.

Maybe time travel?

Ike
30-05-14, 02:15
That study has an extensive annex with all the individual markers that have been determined (load the pdf!). Anybody with more knowledge on how to analyse sub-clades than I have is invited to check that data. Would be nice to throw out any I2c, and also have a better idea of how much I1 can be found among the Vlachs.

I'm not an expert, but went through the whole study and it seems to not go that deep into I clade.
I see no data telling which subclade of I was found to be 23% in Vlachs.

FrankN
30-05-14, 02:36
I think you are on to something, since you seem to be on a roll with the explanations, tell me how the slavs brought I2a1b to Mesolithic Sweden in 6000 B.C.

Maybe time travel?
Oh, that's easy! Some guys chartered a boat, stopped over at their cousin's place in Sardinia, and then set sails to Canada. Unfortunately, they lost their way in a storm and stranded
on a cliff in Ireland. Fortunately, they found other people there who understood Slavic, and learnt they just had to walk across Doggerland to make it to Sweden. On their way, they erected a few megaliths here and there, and many more followed...

motzart
30-05-14, 05:47
This is a good thread and for the most part I enjoy the discussion, but I feel that we have reached the limit of what can be said about I2a1b without developing theories as to the origin/timeline/spread of earlier/diverging I subclades and origin of the I branch itself. This will be my final post in here and hopefully we can have a new I2 thread as successful as this one.

Greying Wanderer
31-05-14, 23:50
I'm surprised that Paleolithic continuity is getting such a strong hearing so far. I have a strong feeling that an ancestor clade of I2a-Din passed through the Balkans or at least the Carpathian Basin, quite possibly I* or early I2* or I2a* or even IJ. But I2a-Din is waaay down the SNP tree, with none of its cousin clades having their centers of diversity in the Balkans. Looking at Nordtvedt's tree (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf) makes it clear how young the clade is. And the "S" cluster, which is more common in the Balkans than the "N" cluster, is even younger than the clade as a whole.

So Paleolithic continuity requires either: (1) The STR dating is unreliable to the point of being junk, and the date is wrong nearly tenfold. Or (2) a massive bottleneck down to clusters N and S by ca. 2500 years ago, followed by an expansion of only N outside of the Balkans, followed by another bottleneck of S, which then expanded in the Classical Age or later (maybe with the Illyrians)? (1) seems very unlikely to me and (2) doesn't seem to fit what we know about the history of the region or the other haplogroups in the region.

What migration pattern does fit the cluster dating? Well, an expansion out of a small subset of an expanding population from the North during the 1st millennium CE would fit it. Sounds like the Slavs, or at least a Southerly subset of them that mixed with I2a-Din people who could have been there well before the R1a carriers.


"Or (2) a massive bottleneck"


*If* it is paleolithic continuity then there would need to be a reason why y dna I survived where it did and not elsewhere. The first most obvious factor is mountains, terrain unsuitable for neolithic farming, thus providing a refuge. However even if they had a refuge the population density of the surviving HGs would be much lower than the adjacent farmers which makes me wonder how the percentage of I in the total population could be so high even in the refuge areas of Scandinavia and the Dinaric Alps.


So it seems to me some kind of bottleneck would be expected where some of the surviving HGs adapt to agriculture in some way that allowed their population to expand. Otherwise as farmers gradually improved their crops and techniques over the centuries they would eventually have expanded into the terrain they previously ignored swamping the surviving HGs.


It seems to me ultimately there has to be a HG to farmer transition in refuge terrain **before** the outside farmers adapt to that terrain and spread into it.


In which case the importance of the refuge isn't so much the refuge in itself but the **time** it gave to allow the local HG population to adapt - the difference between adapt within 100 years or die and adapt within 1000 years or die.


So the Din bottleneck may be the descendants of a family of HGs who adapted to farming in some way - either something physical like lactose tolerance or cultural like taking up herding thus allowing HG-Farmer population expansion.


For example, some HG taken as a child and made into a slave shepherd / cowherd and later escaped back to his own people with some stolen sheep/cows.

Dalmat
03-06-14, 12:28
Yes you are correct that leaves us with I2a1b as the Goths.

You know that places with high I2 frequencies have people looking Scandinavian.

I am being sarcastic, just in case

Dalmat
03-06-14, 12:30
I think you are on to something, since you seem to be on a roll with the explanations, tell me how the slavs brought I2a1b to Mesolithic Sweden in 6000 B.C.

Maybe time travel?

And you are implying that 6000 years ago there were germanic tribes, germanic as designation that romans gave anybody north of their lands, literally meaning something like neighbors.

Maybe time travel?

Ike
03-06-14, 20:25
*If* it is paleolithic continuity then there would need to be a reason why y dna I survived where it did and not elsewhere. The first most obvious factor is mountains, terrain unsuitable for neolithic farming, thus providing a refuge. However even if they had a refuge the population density of the surviving HGs would be much lower than the adjacent farmers which makes me wonder how the percentage of I in the total population could be so high even in the refuge areas of Scandinavia and the Dinaric Alps.

So it seems to me some kind of bottleneck would be expected where some of the surviving HGs adapt to agriculture in some way that allowed their population to expand. Otherwise as farmers gradually improved their crops and techniques over the centuries they would eventually have expanded into the terrain they previously ignored swamping the surviving HGs.


If we assume Paleolithic continuity we get very good fit of I2a-Din covering the whole SE Europe. Current distribution could be related to I2 being pushed towards mountainous areas, by the invaders from the South and from the Danube.

gyms
04-06-14, 10:07
If we assume Paleolithic continuity we get very good fit of I2a-Din covering the whole SE Europe. Current distribution could be related to I2 being pushed towards mountainous areas, by the invaders from the South and from the Danube.

No.I2a-Din is only 2500 years old.

Ike
05-06-14, 02:02
That's why I said "if we assume". Anyways, we don't know for sure what's it's age. Those are only calculations. As I'm concerned, I'll go with 2500, but that 2500 can easily turn up to be 1500 or 3500 if they readjust the formulas.

Greying Wanderer
14-06-14, 06:45
If we assume Paleolithic continuity we get very good fit of I2a-Din covering the whole SE Europe. Current distribution could be related to I2 being pushed towards mountainous areas, by the invaders from the South and from the Danube.

Or the link **prior** to I2a-Din was the paleolithic continuity that covered SE Europe and some individual guy from that group with the I2a-Din mutation was the one who sparked a forager to farmer transformation that led to a population expansion large enough to allow I2 forager dna to survive.

FrankN
14-06-14, 07:23
Or the link **prior** to I2a-Din was the paleolithic continuity that covered SE Europe and some individual guy from that group with the I2a-Din mutation was the one who sparked a forager to farmer transformation that led to a population expansion large enough to allow I2 forager dna to survive.
The area with the highest I2a-Din frequency (Herzegovina & South-Central Bosnia) isn't a farming region, it's a mining region since at least the Bronze Age. A key population group during the Medieval were transhumating cattle herders who also traded salt from the local mines to the Dalmatian coast.
There is archeological evidence of pre-historical large-scale gold-washing. It doesn't require a I2a-Din guy to become farmer, he just has to notice these shining metal pieces in the river and show them to people in the next town, and he will also have sufficient means for his extended family to grow in numbers. And when Goths, Avars & Slavs start incursing the area, he has the means to make them turn around and leave his family unharmed..

Greying Wanderer
14-06-14, 21:34
The area with the highest I2a-Din frequency (Herzegovina & South-Central Bosnia) isn't a farming region, it's a mining region since at least the Bronze Age. A key population group during the Medieval were transhumating cattle herders who also traded salt from the local mines to the Dalmatian coast.
There is archeological evidence of pre-historical large-scale gold-washing. It doesn't require a I2a-Din guy to become farmer, he just has to notice these shining metal pieces in the river and show them to people in the next town, and he will also have sufficient means for his extended family to grow in numbers. And when Goths, Avars & Slavs start incursing the area, he has the means to make them turn around and leave his family unharmed..

yes, doesn't matter what it is - just takes some event that leads to a HG lineage expanding enough in numbers to resist encroaching farmers

(although i also wonder if there was a recurring pattern in prehistory where miners from an outside farming culture settled in a mountainous area and actively recruited and trained local HGs to herd animals to feed the miners and so it was often miners that triggered forager -> herder transformations)


edit: just to add when i said forager -> farmer transformation in the first post I meant forager -> herder transformation

Kurgan
12-08-14, 18:54
To me, it rather looks like a traditional co-existence of I2a-Din (more north-westwards) and E-M78 (more south-eastwards) that has been overformed by successive incursions of R1b (Celts), I1 (Goths, Heruli etc.) and Slavs (R1a), with the Goths and Heruli mostly sparing out Central Bosnia, while Celts hardly and Slavs only to a limited extent made it to Herzegovina and the adjacent Dalmatian coast.

That would point to Palaeolithic continuity, if there weren't the TMRCA and diversity issues ported out by Sparkey. I don't feel qualified to comment on the former. As concerns I2a-Din diversity, however, both Rootsi and Periric report it to be high in Bosnia and Herzegovina, respectively. In fact, both suggest diversity to be highest there, within a wide area of high diversity that comprises most of central-eastern Europe from the Czech Republic towards Western Ukraine (Rootsi even has the high diversity area stretching as far to the North-East as Estonia, but his analysis includes other I2 clades aside from I2a-Din).

In short, after reviewing available research, I think that I2a-Din has already been present in the Dinaric Alps before the Slavic expansion, probably already before Roman times. The question is just whether it originated there, or expanded from further north, maybe the Carpathians around the sources of Dniester and Tisza, sometimes in the Neolithic, the bronze or the iron age. Judged by the diversity maps, an arrival by sea looks quite unlikely.


Thanks for a great post FrankN, I really enjoy the thought you put in to it and read it thoroughly. As to your quote about an origin point, I would like to refer to the Battaglia study's section on Variance. Greater variance in an area pointing to a clade being older there of course. I-M423 being older in Western Ukraine than Croatia/Bosnia where we find it in greater frequencies today. This matches my Goth theory.


This is also consistent with my limited understanding and research. The Dinaric Alps certainly pose quite the geographic refuge from invading R1a and/or R1b peoples.

To quote Bernie Cullen in an e-mail to me: "I think the big question is where did the Dinaric group come from--from the North (Russia/Ukraine/Poland) or from the south (Dinaric Alps of Bosnia, etc) (Of course there are other places it could have come from).

My guess based on slightly higher haplotpye diversity in the northern region is that Dinaric probably came from there. And we have the one "Dinaric cousin" result named Wojtowicz, he is from southern Poland and he is the closest relative to the the Dinaric group but not a Dinaric himself."

I would also like to make the point that being I-M423 (with family in both Slovakia and Ukraine), I was quite surprized to see so many North Caucasus people in my little group (I2a Project, FTDNA). Could it be possible that I2a originated there? :) What research has been done on North Caucasus peoples?

Category: 'I2a2 'Dinaric' Z16971+ (I-Z16971) CTS5966+ CTS10228+ also S17250+ Z16971+'
I2a Project page:



Kit
Family Name
Origins


2275
Baca
Josef Baca, b. 1859 Bordovice, Czech Republic


280194
Shidakov
Shidak, Karachay, North Caucasus


296649
Volek
Michal Volek (Gajary, Slovakia)


291803
Kulchaev
Kulchaev, Karachay [North Caucasus]


267765
Batchaev
Batcha, ataul Jandar, Karachay [North Caucasus]


333648
Urusov
Urus, ataul Islam, Karachay, North Caucasus


211939
Urusov
Urus, Karachay [North Caucasus]


N38227
Feketekuty
Mano b 1200, Halych (Galicia), now Galic, Ukraine


256403
Turkevich
Kiril Turkevich, b. c1725 d 1780 [Ukraine]


280968
Jaskuła
Grzegorz Jaskuła, ca 1720, Żywocin? Poland


N113632
Kowallis
Jacob Kowallis b. 1735 [Poland]

Kurgan
12-08-14, 19:19
The area with the highest I2a-Din frequency (Herzegovina & South-Central Bosnia) isn't a farming region, it's a mining region since at least the Bronze Age. A key population group during the Medieval were transhumating cattle herders who also traded salt from the local mines to the Dalmatian coast.
There is archeological evidence of pre-historical large-scale gold-washing. It doesn't require a I2a-Din guy to become farmer, he just has to notice these shining metal pieces in the river and show them to people in the next town, and he will also have sufficient means for his extended family to grow in numbers. And when Goths, Avars & Slavs start incursing the area, he has the means to make them turn around and leave his family unharmed..

An interesting perspective! Again, the Dinaric Alps themselves pose a pretty formidible barrier to Goths, Avars, Slavs, et. al, as well.

Kurgan
13-08-14, 21:21
I don't think the Slavs are responsible for bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans:


Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli


Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K

albanopolis
13-08-14, 23:23
[/LIST]

Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K
I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.

LeBrok
14-08-14, 06:11
I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.
Vlachs are original Roman speaking population of Balkans, same as Romanians, but they are not necessarily the same population or same origin. There are different groups of Vlachs with different genetic makeup around Balkans. Romanian country and nationality is a fairly new concept.

FrankN
14-08-14, 08:54
[/LIST]

Hi Frank; This is a really interesting comment, one that I would love to learn more about. Where did you source this information, or is it simply well understood?
Thanks, K
I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

Sile
14-08-14, 09:17
I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

I2 in bosnia was either the Cimmerians circa 700BC , who where chaesed out of the crimea area with 1 group going to cappodacia in Anatolia and the other to Pannonia and then into bosnia
...or....
the bastanae who sent 90000 men women and children to help the Macedonians under Philip , IIRC .............none went home, but they tried to invade modern Bosnia on their own after the Macedonians did not need them anymore
Philip had been goaded beyond endurance by the incessant and devastating raiding of the Dardani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani), a warlike Thraco-Illyrian[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae#cite_note-50) tribe on his northern border, which his treaty-limited army was too small to counter effectively. Counting on the Bastarnae, with whom he had forged friendly relations in earlier times, he plotted a strategy to deal with the Dardani and then to regain his lost territories in Greece and his political independence. First, he would unleash the Bastarnae against the Dardani. After the latter had been crushed, Philip planned to settle Bastarnae families in Dardania (southern Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo)/Skopje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje) region), to ensure that the region was permanently subdued.

gyms
14-08-14, 10:38
I think its a possibility that Vlahs are also responsible for I2a in Ballkans. Vlahs are originally Romanians, and the homeland of South Slavs is the area between Western Ukraine, South Poland, Moldavia. On the way to Ballkans Slavs spend some centuries in Romanian lands exchanging their genes. Since the diversity of I2a is greater in the area mentioned means that Moldova, Ucraina, Poland is the source of I2a. Southern Albania where I live has a I2a hot spot which also has many Vlah towns.

The Cumans who remained east and south of the Carpathian Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains) established a county named Cumania, which was a strong military base in an area consisting parts of Moldavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavia) and Wallachia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachia).[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans#cite_note-57) The Hungarian kings claimed supremacy over some areas of Cumania — among the nine titles of the Hungarian kings of the Árpád (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_dynasty) and Anjou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capetian_House_of_Anjou) dynasties were rex Cumaniae. The Cuman influence in Wallachia and Moldavia was very strong, according to some historians who claim that the earliest Wallachian rulers bore Cuman names (e.g., Tihomir and Bassarab).[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans#cite_note-Rady-58) The Cumans played a crucial role in the formation of Wallachia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachia) at the end of the 14th century; many of the first Romanian nobleman were of Cuman descent.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans#cite_note-Peter_Kr.C3.BCger_p.32-22) The toponymy of the most densely populated regions of Romanian settlement shows strong evidence of Cuman placenames.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans

http://www.academia.edu/4459183/Cuman_People

Kurgan
14-08-14, 13:45
I have in the meantime looked a bit more into the Heruli, and have come to conclude that they are a rather unlikely candidate for spreading I2a-Din, since the Herulian colony around Singidunum (Belgrade) probably didn't extend into Central Bosnia and Herzegovina, but instead covered the part of Serbia that is rather poor in I2a but comparatively rich in I1.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=436018&viewfull=1#post436018

The general trail from Central Sweden via Gotland, Vistula and Dnieper to the Black Sea (or vice versa) is well documented as trade route during Bronze, Iron and Viking ages, and has been followed by Goths, Heruli and other East Germanic people. This may have brought quite a lot of I2a from Sweden/ Gotland (where it was the dominating Mesolithic haplogroup) to the NW Black Sea. Or, I2 originated from a Black Sea refuge, which I personally deem quite likely to have existed, though any traces of it will now be covered by some 30-60m of water. In this case, they would have colonised Eastern & Northern Europe by following these rivers up to the Baltic Sea, and partly have returned along the same routes a few millennia later.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30045-Bronze-age-trade-networks

Your "shared ancestry" list was actually the first time I have become aware of a possible relation between I2a and the Caucasus. Maciamo's list of yDNA per country shows reasonable, though not high shares of I2 among Tartars and Ossetians (5-6%), i.e. the non-Slavs in the region. There is also an interesting thread about I2c, which seems to be strongly represented among the traditional Georgian and Armenian nobility.

After 2 years of reading on this forum, and still blown away by the complexity of the various hypotheses put forward by a number of articulate members (including yourself), I am also convinced I2 originated somewhere along the Black Sea refuge... but that could be northwest, north, or northeast into Caucasus territory.

The general "trail" from Sweden via Gotland, Vistula River and Dnieper River to the Black Sea (and vice versa) seems to be a logical and well-grounded explanation for the flow of I2a into northern, central and eastern Europe, and further southeast into the Caucasus.

This also fits with Sparkey's recent comments to me regarding looking at the closest relatives of I2a-Din, and this includes the ANCIENT samples from Sweden:

"that's not a good assumption. Z16971 is very young (think historical period) and on a branch of I2 associated with Eastern European expansions, not Caucasian expansions. That means that the Caucasians who carry it are likely Slavs on their paternal line. Rather, you'll need to look at the distributions of the closest relatives of I2a-Din, which turn out to be I2a-Disles, I2a-Isles, and the ancient samples from Sweden and Luxembourg. The first two are largely northwestern European clades, and the ancient samples, of course, are from northwest of where your clade is now distributed. That means that your group is the geographic outlier, indicating that at some point, the ancestral carrier lived in western or central Europe. Does that make the Franco-Iberian refuge a better guess than the Black Sea refuge? I think so. But I admit we don't have proof of LGM locations yet."

http://static.gmedia.lt/pic/articles/314.jpg?w=628

Did the Morava River play a similar role in trade? You made an ealier comment that I2a-Din has been long established in western Slovakia and perhaps this is due, in part, to proximity to the Morava River and it's possible long established trade network, as well as the fact that if offered a convenient migratory route from which I2a could have flowed. I admit this is of personal interest to me as a very long line of my paternal relatives, at least that I can trace, come from western Slovakia, including Gajary, which is located on the Morava River. Gajary was established as a border crossing to Austria on the Morava River.

***

Also; please, tell me more about this map:

http://www.borg-op.asn-bgld.ac.at/roemischebernsteinstrasse/alte_karte.jpg

albanopolis
14-08-14, 14:49
Vlachs are original Roman speaking population of Balkans, same as Romanians, but they are not necessarily the same population or same origin. There are different groups of Vlachs with different genetic makeup around Balkans. Romanian country and nationality is a fairly new concept.
The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria. But you are also right when you say that they are Romanized Balkan people. An internationally recognized Albanian linguist (Eqerem Cabej) was pushing the possibility that they could be romanised Illyrians.
But the first one has the most support. In albanian language we call them Coban (shepards), so dowe call Romanians.

gyms
14-08-14, 15:55
Çoban is a Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) name meaning shepherd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd).
Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) use their own nicknames to refer to the Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians), such as Vllah (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vllah&action=edit&redlink=1)/Vlleh (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vlleh&action=edit&redlink=1); also used is choban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choban) (derived from the Albanian word Çobenj (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%87obenj&action=edit&redlink=1); Çoban meaning pastoral mountain folk and shepherd).

The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria.

The origin of the Romanians has been for centuries subject to scholarly debate, often driven by political bias. Two basic theories can be differentiated; one theory posits Daco-Romanian continuity and the other is an immigrationist theory, but interim views also exist. Scholars of the first school argue that the Romanians are mainly descended from the Daco-Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daco-Romans), a people emerging through the cohabitation of the native Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) and the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language)-speaking Roman colonists in the Roman province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province) of Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia) north of the river Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube). Accordingly, they suggest that a significant part of the territory of modern Romania has continuously been inhabited by the Romanians' ancestors. Followers of the opposite view argue that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia) and other provinces south of the Danube. Consequently, they propose a northward migration of the Romanians across the river.

The name "România" as common homeland of the Romanians is documented in the early 19th century.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Romania#cite_note-19)

FrankN
14-08-14, 17:52
Did the Morava River play a similar role in trade? You made an ealier comment that I2a-Din has been long established in western Slovakia and perhaps this is due, in part, to proximity to the Morava River and it's possible long established trade network, as well as the fact that if offered a convenient migratory route from which I2a could have flowed. I admit this is of personal interest to me as a very long line of my paternal relatives, at least that I can trace, come from western Slovakia, including Gajary, which is located on the Morava River. Gajary was established as a border crossing to Austria on the Morava River.

***

Also; please, tell me more about this map:

http://www.borg-op.asn-bgld.ac.at/roemischebernsteinstrasse/alte_karte.jpg

I assume you mean the Moravian, not the Serbian Morava, correct? That Morava has been the classical connection between the Danube and the Northern European plain, either via the Moravian Gate to the upper Odra/Oder, or from some subsidiaries over rather low hills to the upper Elbe and the Vltava/Moldau, respectively. Think Belgrade - Budapest - Bratislava - Brno - Praha - Dresden - Berlin/Leipzig - Hamburg (->London/Copenhagen).
There is hardly a connection that has been more important in European pre-history than this one. It starts with the 6th millennium BC spread of the LBK early farmers, continues with the advance of metallurgy from the Vinca Culture (Danube-Tisza region) into Bohemia, Silesia, Eastern Germany and Scandinavia, and is (as I see it, others will disagree) also the most likely entry point of Indo-Europeans (Baden culture) into north-central Europe. In the opposite direction, it was among others used by the Lombards and Marcomanni in their escape from the Roman conquest attempt around 10 BC, which, ultimately and ironically, resulted in the fall of the West Roman empire half a millennium after Rome had displaced the Lombards from their homeland on the lower Elbe. It was also the entrance route of Huns, Avars and Magyars into the Pannonian Basin, and the route along which the Western Balkans became (at least linguistically) slavicised. Oh, I forgot the Celtic Boji, which took their home in Bo(i)hemia, established a secondary capital in Bratislava, and most likely founded Olomouc (which is clearly a Celtic town name).

The map displays the Roman-age amber route as documented in the Tabula Peutingeriana, re-establishment of which was the main economic goal of the short-lived 5th century AD Herulian kingdom. The relevance of this road becomes apparent from the fact that the Roman capital of the province of Pannonia was neither Aquincum (Budapest), nor Vindobona (Vienna), but Carnuntum, directly opposite of the confluence of Morava and Danube.

Did I state that I2a-Din was long established in Western Slovakia? I actually don't recall that. I had made a comment that Obotrites (people from the upper Odra) settled both Eastern Holstein and parts of Serbia, and it is rather unlikely that the southern wave was full of I2a-Din, while it was virtually absent from the northern wave. As the most convenient route from the upper Odra to the middle Danube, especially when you are travelling with family and children, leads along the Morava, this implies that I2a-Din probably also didn't get there with the Obotrites. But there are dozens of other possibilities how I2a-Din could have come to Western Slovakia, some of which could have occurred long before the Slavic migrations, some others (Huns, Goths, Gepids) rather contemporary with that migration, some (Magyars) even afterwards. The area has always been a major transit corridor and melting pot.

albanopolis
14-08-14, 19:52
Çoban is a Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) name meaning shepherd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd).
Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) use their own nicknames to refer to the Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians), such as Vllah (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vllah&action=edit&redlink=1)/Vlleh (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vlleh&action=edit&redlink=1); also used is choban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choban) (derived from the Albanian word Çobenj (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%87obenj&action=edit&redlink=1); Çoban meaning pastoral mountain folk and shepherd).

The main theory about Vlahs is that they originate to the area of Vlahia in southern Romania and north of Bulgaria.

The origin of the Romanians has been for centuries subject to scholarly debate, often driven by political bias. Two basic theories can be differentiated; one theory posits Daco-Romanian continuity and the other is an immigrationist theory, but interim views also exist. Scholars of the first school argue that the Romanians are mainly descended from the Daco-Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daco-Romans), a people emerging through the cohabitation of the native Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) and the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language)-speaking Roman colonists in the Roman province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province) of Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia) north of the river Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube). Accordingly, they suggest that a significant part of the territory of modern Romania has continuously been inhabited by the Romanians' ancestors. Followers of the opposite view argue that the Romanians' ethnogenesis commenced in Moesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia) and other provinces south of the Danube. Consequently, they propose a northward migration of the Romanians across the river.

The name "România" as common homeland of the Romanians is documented in the early 19th century.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Romania#cite_note-19)
Yep! You are right! Coban is a Turkish word but was adapted by Albanians. Albanian word for Coban is "Bari".
I also agree with what you are saying about their early origin. My point is that the area they inhabit is a hotspot for haplogroup i2a. Slavs and Romanians lived side by side during the period that south Slavs made it to Balkans. Romanian Dna shows heavy presence of Slavic genes among their population. So the Vlahs could be contributers to I2a presence in Ballkans.

kamani
14-08-14, 20:07
Yep! You are right! Coban is a Turkish word but was adapted by Albanians. Albanian word for Coban is "Bari".
I also agree with what you are saying about their early origin. My point is that the area they inhabit is a hotspot for haplogroup i2a. Slavs and Romanians lived side by side during the period that south Slavs made it to Balkans. Romanian Dna shows heavy presence of Slavic genes among their population. So the Vlahs could be contributers to I2a presence in Ballkans.

it's funny now a lot of these Aromanians claim to be Greek, and have gotten Greek citizenship and pensions.

Yetos
14-08-14, 21:15
it's funny now a lot of these Aromanians claim to be Greek, and have gotten Greek citizenship and pensions.

no it is not
it would be funny if not

kamani
14-08-14, 21:25
no it is not
it would be funny if they claim Slavic or Albanian origins

Both are Northern languages and newly comers in Balkans, centuries after the Latinization of Balkans,
Some of them may come from the PANNONI BASIN KELTES

So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

Yetos
14-08-14, 22:30
So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

what is your problem?
you want to get paid by Greeks?
you wanna come for free vacations?
you want to get a loan from a Greek bank?

albanopolis
14-08-14, 22:47
So Greece is in a crisis, receiving monetary help, and you're willing to pay pensions to Aromanians pretending to be Greek, that don't even live in Greece!

In 1913 only in the region of Chameria there were 3oo ooo Vlahs. Most of them were Albanian speaking Vlahs but there were Greek speaking Vlahs as well. There were Vlah settlements all over Northern Greece but I have not encounter any figures of how many. Population of Greece is now 3 times higher than it was in 1913. Tht means the Vlahs of Chameria only number one million because of natural growth. If you check the y dna results of Northern Greece you see a spike of haplogroups I and R1a for which, other than Slav population of Northern Greece, The Vlahs are also responsible. So to stay within the frame of this thread I2a is Slavic and Vlah component brought in the Ballkans.

Yetos
14-08-14, 23:13
In 1913 only in the region of Chameria there were 3oo ooo Vlahs. Most of them were Albanian speaking Vlahs but there were Greek speaking Vlahs as well. There were Vlah settlements all over Northern Greece but I have not encounter any figures of how many. Population of Greece is now 3 times higher than it was in 1913. Tht means the Vlahs of Chameria only number one million because of natural growth. If you check the y dna results of Northern Greece you see a spike of haplogroups I and R1a for which, other than Slav population of Northern Greece, The Vlahs are also responsible. So to stay within the frame of this thread I2a is Slavic and Vlah component brought in the Ballkans.

WOW
how nice calculations, and expert history, with no documents, and forgot the exchange of populations!!!
really?
no Greeks came fromSMYRNA in 1923,
NO GREEKS CAME FROM KASTAMONE?
NOGREEKS CAME FROM CAPPADOKIA?
NO GREEKS CAME FROM PONTUS?
No Greeks left Bulgaria,
No Greeks return from Austria,
No Greeks return from SERBIA
NO greeks returned from Romania?
NO GReeks returned from Georgia/Ossetia
NPO Greeks returned from Ukraine
NO Greeks returned from Crimea?
FINNALY in 1923 the treaty say about 250 000 in Constantinoupolis, today are only 5 000
WERE THEY GONE?

you have a fantastic calculating system, amazing.

PS
is kamani and you the same person? or you use the same computer?

sparkey
14-08-14, 23:46
I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

albanopolis
15-08-14, 01:57
WOW
how nice calculations, and expert history, with no documents, and forgot the exchange of populations!!!
really?
no Greeks came fromSMYRNA in 1923,
NO GREEKS CAME FROM KASTAMONE?
NOGREEKS CAME FROM CAPPADOKIA?
NO GREEKS CAME FROM PONTUS?
No Greeks left Bulgaria,
No Greeks return from Austria,
No Greeks return from SERBIA
NO greeks returned from Romania?
NO GReeks returned from Georgia/Ossetia
NPO Greeks returned from Ukraine
NO Greeks returned from Crimea?
FINNALY in 1923 the treaty say about 250 000 in Constantinoupolis, today are only 5 000
WERE THEY GONE?

you have a fantastic calculating system, amazing.

PS
is kamani and you the same person? or you use the same computer?

From 1900 up 1990 maybe 5 to 6 million Greeks left to the new Word . Since I have lived in USA for a while only in USA are about 5 million Greeks. Not to mention Canada, Australia, Brasil, Latin America, EU. it could be twice more Greeks around the World than in Greece. So all the people you are mentioning left to other countries. Had they all been living in Greece today Greece would number 35 million souls. Among this emigres could be Vlahs and arvanites. So my estimate is that in today's Greece only 5 Million are real ethnic Hellenes. Others are of different background. Albania had a census a while ago. Out of 3,2 million Albanians citizens living in the country at the time of census only 2.2 said they were Albanians, Others could be Vlahs, Roma, Greeks Slavs, even Armenians and Bosniaks. Greece is a lot more mixed for many reasons I wish not to mention here.

kamani
15-08-14, 02:45
I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

Yetos
15-08-14, 06:26
From 1900 up 1990 maybe 5 to 6 million Greeks left to the new Word . Since I have lived in USA for a while only in USA are about 5 million Greeks. Not to mention Canada, Australia, Brasil, Latin America, EU. it could be twice more Greeks around the World than in Greece. So all the people you are mentioning left to other countries. Had they all been living in Greece today Greece would number 35 million souls. Among this emigres could be Vlahs and arvanites. So my estimate is that in today's Greece only 5 Million are real ethnic Hellenes. Others are of different background. Albania had a census a while ago. Out of 3,2 million Albanians citizens living in the country at the time of census only 2.2 said they were Albanians, Others could be Vlahs, Roma, Greeks Slavs, even Armenians and Bosniaks. Greece is a lot more mixed for many reasons I wish not to mention here.

WHO SAID THAT?
YOU SHAVE SEEN IN TV?
fantastic,
ALL THAT UNDER WHOS SEARCH? YOURS?
NO LINK, NO DATA, JUST YOUR PERSONAL THOUGHTS.
AND YOU WANT us TO BELIEVE you OF SERIOUS DISCUSS??

naaaaa

Yetos
15-08-14, 06:50
I recall Greek I2a-Din being mainly I2a-Din-N rather than I2a-Din-S, and indeed the Greek DNA Project at FTDNA seems to have a ratio of about 7:1 of I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S. That alone is a pretty good argument against the Serbs bringing I2a-Din to Greece. But is it an argument for the Vlachs? I'm not quite convinced... take the fact that Vlachs have at least as much J2 as I2a-Din, but that Northern Greece is actually a low point for J2 in Greece. R1a is also elevated in Northern Greece (18% per Maciamo's table) despite Vlachs having relatively low R1a (10% per Maciamo's table). So we're perhaps looking for an I2a-Din-N group with R1a to spare and not much J2. Perhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

Vlachs are smaller groups, not one as somones would like.

for example the |Kutsuk Vlachs are from dismiss of 4rth Legion in PalaioPHarsalos,
Pharsal-os is the same word with Versailles and simmilar the other village names, next to where R1a in Greece has its high 24%
Mengle Vlachs are a group of Vlachs who are called Armanesti their connectiomns with Other Vlachs is limited and seems to be in center of a R1b area, they are consider as latinised locals
Moesio Vlachs, Most of them came until WW1 from Moesia, Rumania Bulgaria or MOLDO-WALLACHIA significant E-V13
Aranto-Vlachs, they are from Moschopolis today Albania, they left their area when Albanians burn it to the groud,they carry J2b among them
Scando or Stranza-Vlachs, they are from SOUTH and East parts of Bulgaria, an area where Scordisci stationed before devastate to minor Asia,
they are nnot connected among them, neither genetically, neither by look

for example ArvantoVlachs have enough dark, while Kutsuk Vlachs have big % of Blonds, and Mengle are very tall in the areas, they live in the areas of Makedonian Lokroi which were considered the tallest among Greeks from antique and are dark brown

we can not combine Arvanto-Vlachs with Kutsuk Vlachs etc etc, the one came from Epirus Nova and the other is from WEST of ALPS Roman Legions

their population of all groups except Kutsuk Vlacchs is limited, you can find them even in Wiki,
their linguistic are tottaly Different,
Moesian Vlachs were billingual, from their early written we find the modern Thracian Idiom, meaning they were connected with Constantinopolis Greek more, than central Greece,
Most of their families have a Hero in the Greek revolt in Danubian principallities and Iasion

generally Vlachs are either kelts from WEST of Alps, other Pannoni Kelts, other latinised local who worked in Roman Villas Villachios Βιλαετια (Villaet)
in WW2 Italians notice that speak a latin language, and they propaganda them to make an indipendent zone, but noone followed

besides there vlachs in each country of Balkans, and most are diffirent communities, except the Moesians, the Wallachs
from Croatia to Greece and from Albania to Bulgaria, in Turkey such community at least as i know does not exist

in Balkans romans dismiss many times legions, as the 4rth the 5tη Cinqueari etc, where a legion was dismissed, land was given, and creation of latinspeakers.

for example there are Vlachs in Montenegro or Bosnia, or Serbia or Croatia, that theymight not even use the termination Vlach

albanopolis
15-08-14, 12:17
The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.
Vlah language is a Latin language, classified as a Romanian dialect. Its not close to Albanian even though we share about 150 words. It is thought that those words are interchanges from being neighbors.

gyms
15-08-14, 12:39
The only arguments I can think of for the Vlachs-hypothesis are: Romanians themselves and the Aromanian-Albanian village "Andon Poci", which was 40% I2a, but that is a very small village, so probably a founder effect. The other Aromanian-Albanian villages did not have as much I2a. But Romanians are definitely old in the Balkans, at least since Roman times and they're not roman soldiers like some of them claim to be. They do speak a language with a lot of words in common with Latin and Albanian. I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

In this study of theoritical character, the sight is set on the most typical similtudes between Albanian and Romanian
observed in the entire language subsystems. There turn out to be common features only for these two languages which
are different from overall Balkan features (Balcan shpracbund). This article points out not only the parallelisms
previously noticed by many linguists over centuries during the evolution of these two languages independently of each
other, but also the latest common points recently observed.
Making
clear the origin of these similarities might help resolve the ethnogenesis issue of the two nations and not further blur it.
http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/mjss/article/viewFile/203/188

gyms
15-08-14, 19:25
I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

Historian?Wow!

Yaan
15-08-14, 19:38
IPerhaps Bulgarians? I'm not sure what their I2a-Din-N to I2a-Din-S ratio is, though.

About 85-90% I2a Din N , but we need better samples :)

Yetos
15-08-14, 19:51
I have even heard a Romanian historian on a documentary say that Italians got Latin from Romanians.

Historian?Wow!

that may have a chance of true,
Pannoni Celts, Hungary Serbia ROMANIA
Before or After Latenne-Haalstaat?

surely the time that Celts lived in Pannoni Modern Romania was Geto_Dacian Thracian linguistically

gyms
15-08-14, 20:15
that may have a chance of true,
Pannoni Celts, Hungary Serbia ROMANIA
Before or After Latenne-Haalstaat?

surely the time that Celts lived in Pannoni Modern Romania was Geto_Dacian Thracian linguistically

Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

albanopolis
15-08-14, 20:49
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.
Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

Yetos
15-08-14, 21:21
Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

you understand that such statement takes away Illyrian continuity and enters getoThracian or Albocense chance

Yetos
15-08-14, 21:22
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

????
what connection has your post with what I said and Ask?

Sile
15-08-14, 21:39
this site below is now regarded as a celtic burial site in modern Albania/macedonia . Its part of the celtic invasion of the balkans, greece and anatolia after the death of Alexander the great.

http://berberian11.tripod.com/vulich_trebenishte.htm

I will attached the new article as soon as I can buy it.

Question- did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker

Note: the bryges in the balkans are noted as same tribe of celts in the alps ( some say they are illyrian)
The study of the onomastic data has shown that out of the 50 names found in the Ohrid-Struga region, no more than four can be classified as Illyrian. Some of the personal names can be classified neither as Illyrian, nor ancient Greek, or Thracian. Other names that were formerly considered to be Illyrian have many analogies in Asia Minor, which proves that they should be ascribed to the Bryges

Yetos
15-08-14, 21:45
this site below is now regarded as a celtic burial site in modern Albania/macedonia . Its part of the celtic invasion of the balkans, greece and anatolia after the death of Alexander the great.

http://berberian11.tripod.com/vulich_trebenishte.htm

I will attached the new article as soon as I can buy it.

Question- did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker

Note: the bryges in the balkans are noted as same tribe of celts in the alps ( some say they are illyrian)
The study of the onomastic data has shown that out of the 50 names found in the Ohrid-Struga region, no more than four can be classified as Illyrian. Some of the personal names can be classified neither as Illyrian, nor ancient Greek, or Thracian. Other names that were formerly considered to be Illyrian have many analogies in Asia Minor, which proves that they should be ascribed to the Bryges

Βρυγες may be connected as Bricandi? or as Burgundi, and why they had a god named Βακχος? BOG?

your question is very good?

did the pannonian/danubian celts prior to the invasion of the balkans have any I2 marker


BUT
<<Four golden burial masks,>>
that is indicator of Varna necropolis culture, a burial ritual that started from Aimos peninsula years before IE and Egypt,
from balkans travel to Egypt,
I wrote about when I wrote about Varna necropolis,
Gold Mettalurgy is not IE, But Vinca Varna Mycenae, and probably was extracted either in Georgia rivers, either in Romania hills.
it is far ancient than arsenic bronze of IE.

in fact only reading that golden masks found is enough to tell you that Bryges indeed were either close to Greek either Thracian, and thats proves to me,
The gold in Tomps and especially the masks is found 6kya in Varna Necropolis much before IE entrance, that is why although I do not arque with arsenic bronze, I arque with kurgans and horse/chariot
it is a pre IE ritual that IE kings accept it,

EXCEPT IF WE FIND IE GENES IN VARNA VINCA MYCENAE BEFORE 3500 BC

Yaan
16-08-14, 07:51
Albanians and Romanians were neighbors for thousands of years. Slavs were in Asia central where Mongolia is today. So Romanian-Slav contact was minimal. Maybe few centuries on their way to Balkan. So there is not good reason for Slavs for loanwords.

Actually the closes thing to Romanians in this world is Bulgarians and Serbs and the reason is not only the Thracian blood but also the Slavic ones. They borrowed a lot of words from us which they used to this day. :)

gyms
16-08-14, 09:14
????
what connection has your post with what I said and Ask?

Take it easy Yetos!

mihaitzateo
16-08-14, 12:59
Actually the closes thing to Romanians in this world is Bulgarians and Serbs and the reason is not only the Thracian blood but also the Slavic ones. They borrowed a lot of words from us which they used to this day. :)

Not really.
To South Romanians,those from SE Romania, Bulgarians are closest.
To those Romanians from SW Romania,Serbians are closest.
Same about those from West Romania,like Timisoara.
But for Romanians from Central Romania,from Wallachia/near Bucharest and as you go upward towards North mountains,Ukrainians are looking almost identical.Anyway,a Serb in Romania will be quite impossible to be seen as not native from here,so most closed overall from Romanians are Serbians.
Moldovans,guess they are closed to SW Russians people,but not that closed to Ukrainians.
Maybe those Moldovans from mountains are close again from Ukrainians or Serbians.
North Transylvania,no idea,Croats/Serbs,I think are closest to them.
Maybe you did not knew,but Romania has Ukrainians as most numerous Slavic minority..Is simple Ukrainians migrated from their land,on the mountains Southwards in Romania.
I think actually Romania had an ancient Italic population,a Slavic or Slavic with some Baltic influences language population conquered them.
After a long rule and mixing over this Italic population,which was most related to today Sardinians,these Slavic speakers were conquered by Roman Empire and another linguistic influence appeared.
There were also Iranic tribes,like Sarmatians,which mixed a little with people from Romania,Balkans and even today Ukraine and left some words and some genetics here.

gyms
16-08-14, 13:27
All haplogroups are common in Romania and other Central and Eastern European populations.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/romania/default.aspx?section=yresults

Yaan
16-08-14, 14:31
Not really.
To South Romanians,those from SE Romania, Bulgarians are closest.
To those Romanians from SW Romania,Serbians are closest.
Same about those from West Romania,like Timisoara.
But for Romanians from Central Romania,from Wallachia/near Bucharest and as you go upward towards North mountains,Ukrainians are looking almost identical.Anyway,a Serb in Romania will be quite impossible to be seen as not native from here,so most closed overall from Romanians are Serbians.
Moldovans,guess they are closed to SW Russians people,but not that closed to Ukrainians.
Maybe those Moldovans from mountains are close again from Ukrainians or Serbians.
North Transylvania,no idea,Croats/Serbs,I think are closest to them.
Maybe you did not knew,but Romania has Ukrainians as most numerous Slavic minority..Is simple Ukrainians migrated from their land,on the mountains Southwards in Romania.
I think actually Romania had an ancient Italic population,a Slavic or Slavic with some Baltic influences language population conquered them.
After a long rule and mixing over this Italic population,which was most related to today Sardinians,these Slavic speakers were conquered by Roman Empire and another linguistic influence appeared.
There were also Iranic tribes,like Sarmatians,which mixed a little with people from Romania,Balkans and even today Ukraine and left some words and some genetics here.

My friend Romanians are one folk u know, it is not US or something, the closest to Romanians from the West and those from the East etc. Romanians on general are a lot closer to Bulgarians and Serbs then to Ukrainians. I have been to Bukurest, everybody was speaking Romanian to me and majority of people looked really close to us. We are we and u r u, but the closest thing in the world is Romanians/ Moldvian and Yugoslavs and Bulgarians /Macedonians:) The rest is politics, language and culture, I am speaking about genes and looks :)

albanopolis
16-08-14, 15:08
you understand that such statement takes away Illyrian continuity and enters getoThracian or Albocense chance
It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

Yaan
16-08-14, 15:19
It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

Albanian is a nation, Ilyrians are ancient people. Albanians have a lot of Ilyrian blood and they do come from Ilyrians but they are slo a lot, a lot of other things, just like everybody else.

Yetos
16-08-14, 16:23
It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

I said your statement takes away illyrian continuity, and it does, if continue believe it,
watch carefuuly what you state and said,

Ike
16-08-14, 17:43
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian.

That's consistent with Dacian hypothesis (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG), also supported by Kaplan Burovich.

kamani
16-08-14, 19:10
It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia.

Let's not get too broad, the opponents are just the ultra-nationalist groups in Serbia and Greece.

gyms
16-08-14, 19:30
http://books.google.se/books?id=RM6MRPWXxQYC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=the+origin+of+romanians&source=bl&ots=Lar32fcQGI&sig=CvsNJvYYyzrJcV4OQvRZFtKbTzc&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=OpTvU-C2GaTmyQPb0IKADA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=the%20origin%20of%20romanians&f=false

by Lucian Boia

Yetos
16-08-14, 20:00
It does not. Albanian and Illyrian are interchangeable terms. The only people who doubt it are Slavs and there good allies Greeks. Illyrians and Dacians were neighbors for millenia. Slavs are relatively newcomers in the Balkans.

what the poor Greeks done you?
When you state clear about the GetoDacian connectivity,
What is next? are you gonna tell us that geto-Thracians were Illyrians?

it is MEA CULPA, to your other posts.

Sile
16-08-14, 20:05
That's consistent with Dacian hypothesis (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG), also supported by Kaplan Burovich.

that hypothesis fits exactly with the true origin of thracians is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
the romanains are dacians.....................but with your map and this one.......are dacians also thracians?,

Yetos
16-08-14, 20:06
Let's not get too broad, the opponents are just the ultra-nationalist groups in Serbia and Greece.

What opponent? who is extra nationalist?

the only extra nationalist here I see is you,

When told that Albanians are Getto-Thracians somehere revolt and said Illyrian,
Now I see that also claim Geto-Thracian,
What is next by my EXTRA NATIONALIST NEIGHBORS?

GETO THRACIANS WERE ILLYRIANS? OR ILLYRIANS WERE GETO-THRACIANS?

I KNOW you follow the other one,
STARTING OF ALL IS YOUR HOMELAND RIGHT?

kamani
16-08-14, 21:28
What opponent? who is extra nationalist?

the only extra nationalist here I see is you,

When told that Albanians are Getto-Thracians somehere revolt and said Illyrian,
Now I see that also claim Geto-Thracian,
What is next by my EXTRA NATIONALIST NEIGHBORS?

GETO THRACIANS WERE ILLYRIANS? OR ILLYRIANS WERE GETO-THRACIANS?

I KNOW you follow the other one,
STARTING OF ALL IS YOUR HOMELAND RIGHT?

when I said ultra-nationalists, I wasn't talking about you. You just need a doctor, lol.

Yetos
16-08-14, 22:32
when I said ultra-nationalists, I wasn't talking about you. You just need a doctor, lol.

Yes indeed, after so many years hearing you surely I need one,

I wonder when was your last visit, maybe your medicine treatment does not work

LeBrok
17-08-14, 01:23
Please guys, keep it cool. Let's keep doctors away from this thread. :)

Ike
17-08-14, 04:25
that hypothesis fits exactly with the true origin of thracians is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
the romanains are dacians.....................but with your map and this one.......are dacians also thracians?,

I think that Danube was natural border between Thracians and Dacians, and on the map I've linked in previous post is encircled the formation territory of Romanian people. That may have been Dacians in major, but may have also included many other partly Latinized tribes of Thracian, Moesian and different origin, who were involved in formation of Romanian language and nation. I suppose that map was not drawn precisely, cause no precise data are even available, and it was more oriented on trying to explain (and assume) the position of Albanian speaking groups.

Pirro
09-09-14, 18:21
Dear Zanipolo, did You Know any so called ancient greek tribue amed `hellas`? Do You know then name Hellen is from Helene. Helen have i albanian language significance of e lene, e braktisur- or in english- cast women, forlorn women. So,, why are you lying about ancient greece, when in that time all ancient tribues have been pelasgic-illyrian? Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

Ike
26-09-14, 00:36
Testimony of that are that majority of ancient words of tribues, places, and a lot of names can be easily significance in Albanian language..

Which could also mean that a lot of Albanian cultural and linguistic heritage comes from Greeks...

clintCG
29-12-14, 00:12
Hello,
I must revive this thread because about few pages before I saw some talk about Gothic theory, and most did seem to agree that spread of I2a2 Dinaric fits perfectly in Gothic migrations, but were highly sceptical because they didn't have enough of evidence that ex-Yugoslavians are of Gothic origin- but read this post closely and you will find that Gothic theory of I2a Din is more than plausible.
I will start with first literary work among Yugoslavians, it is called "Chronicles of Priests of Duklja". From beginning it tells about two Gothic brothers, Totila and Ostroyllus. Totila conquers Italy, while Ostroyllus rules over Roman provinces Dalmatia (Bosnia and Croatia) and his capital is in Prevalis (Montenegro). He sent his son with most of army to conquer remaining of Panonia while he remained in Prevalis. Army of Byzantines came and pillaged his lands. When Senudial, son of Ostroyllus heard that he returns from Panonia to avenge father's death but he finds no Byzantines in Prevalis. From then on it talks about Gothic rulers and how they are ancestors of medieval Croat and Montenegrin rulers and people.
Don't forget that before that there were more migrations of Goths to this area: first one was in 370's when Goths fled from Huns to Balkans.

Dr. Rus in Ljubljana in 1914 even mentions migration of slavicized Goths from Vistula in 7th century to Balkans.
It is worth saying that in interwar period German historians Ludwig Glumpowitz and L. Hauptmann regarder Gothic origin of us as correct.

Not only Priest of Duklja but also Thomas the Archdeacon of Split in his "Historia Salonitana" in 13th century also writes about our Gothic origin, and about same Gothic migrations.

Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".


Montenegrin town of Niksic was founded by Goths in 6th century. Our original name of that town in Onogosht, which is derived from Germanic name Anegast. At Skadar Gothic coins and buckles were found. Some linguists think that nearby clan of Hoti has some connection to Goths.
In Budva, too, Gothic material remnants were found, and also in early Christian basillica near Bijelo Polje where Gothic buckles and traces of destruction were found. Material remnants of Goths are also found all over Croatia and Bosnia.
Early christian basillica in Breza, Bosnia, is particularly interesting because there was found stone pillar with Gothic runic inscription.


And now about Gothic toponyms. Here are some from Bosnia and Montenegro, from book of Croatian historian Ivan Mužić: Onogošt, Ostrog, Gacko (also clan Gačani), Vareš, Hrgud, Brotnjo, Hardomilje, Argud, Otilovci, Konogovo, Gudelji... there are more of them which I don't remember.

Now let's look at Gothic remains in our languages. Our language, except for Scandinavian ones and Estonian, is only in Europe with pitch accent, and since Goths originate in Scandinavia it is very possible they brought it. There are also many Gothic words in our language, sadly many of them were removed during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Here are some:

stijena-stains (Gothic): rock, brijeg-bjarg (Old Norse): hill, saian-sijati (Gothic): to sow, plaisan-plesati (Gothic): to dance, volja-vilja (Gothic): will, smokva-smakka (Gothic): fig, svrbjeti-swairban (Gothic): to itch, vrijedan-wairthan (Gothic): worthy, vještica-weihitha (Gothic): witch, stvoriti-stiurjan (Gothic): to create, trnje-thaurna (Gothic): thorns, wopjan-vapiti (Gothic): to cry out for help, svekrva/svekar-swaihra (Gothic): mother/father in-law, nećak-nithjus (Gothici): nephew, hrpa-haupaz (proto-Germanic): pile; bunch, ljekar-lekeis (Gothic): healer;doctor, frizura/češljanje-frisiaz (Gothic): hairstyle, bljesak-blason (proto-Germanic): blaze etc etc... There are over 1000 Gothic words in Chakavian dialect gathered by Croatian historian Mihovil Lovrić.

Now one interesting thing is connection between official religion of Bogomilism in medieval Bosnia and Arian heresy of the Goths. Gregor Cremosnik in 1937 is first historian to claim connection between Bogomilism and Arian heresy, because Bogomilism only appears there where Goths settled. It is interesting that popes often called Bosnians "arian heretics".

Stanko Guldescu:
"Both Tvrtko and Stjepan Tomašević (King Stephen of Bosnia) placed curiously ornate Gothic letters beneath the Bosnian crown and coat of arms. On many shileds found in Bosnia, and which antedate Muslim conquest, the typical device represented is that of moon and star, the design which appears on shield of Theodoric and other Ostrogothic kings, as well as on the mossaics that date from period of Ostrogothic rule at Ravenna. Also there is to be found on many of the oldest Bosnian gravestones (stećci) shields with this same device which was so popular among Ostrogoths. The German consul in Sarajevo in the last century was inspired by the noted historian, Theodor Mommsen, to undertake a study of Bosnian antiquities. He deduced a definite connection between strange-appearing Bosnian tombstones (stećci) and the Ostrogoths who ruled the area..."

I can also say that Slavs are most likely to have settled in parts of country fertile for agriculture, that is, in northern parts of Yugoslavia, while southern parts, in which I2a Din is more frequent was settled with Goths. Agriculture is EVERYTHING for Slavs. But in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro it is contrary. French general Viala de Somier, when he visited Montenegro in 1820 observed that population has very limited use of farming, that men leave hardest agricultural works to women while their only duty is war, raiding and herding cattle.

I will also mention anthropological research. According to Priest of Duklja, core of Goths resided in Prevalis (Montenegro).
In 1939 book "The Races of Europe" Carleton Coon lists Montenegrins as tallest and heaviest men in Europe, and finds out that most of them belong to Borreby subrace, which is most numerous in northern Germany and western Norway.

I hope that I shed some light on this interesting subject. I had a LOT of links and pictures to share with you but unfortunately I can't since I don't have 10 posts yet.

Sile
29-12-14, 00:20
Hello,
I must revive this thread because about few pages before I saw some talk about Gothic theory, and most did seem to agree that spread of I2a2 Dinaric fits perfectly in Gothic migrations, but were highly sceptical because they didn't have enough of evidence that ex-Yugoslavians are of Gothic origin- but read this post closely and you will find that Gothic theory of I2a Din is more than plausible.
I will start with first literary work among Yugoslavians, it is called "Chronicles of Priests of Duklja". From beginning it tells about two Gothic brothers, Totila and Ostroyllus. Totila conquers Italy, while Ostroyllus rules over Roman provinces Dalmatia (Bosnia and Croatia) and his capital is in Prevalis (Montenegro). He sent his son with most of army to conquer remaining of Panonia while he remained in Prevalis. Army of Byzantines came and pillaged his lands. When Senudial, son of Ostroyllus heard that he returns from Panonia to avenge father's death but he finds no Byzantines in Prevalis. From then on it talks about Gothic rulers and how they are ancestors of medieval Croat and Montenegrin rulers and people.
Don't forget that before that there were more migrations of Goths to this area: first one was in 370's when Goths fled from Huns to Balkans.

Dr. Rus in Ljubljana in 1914 even mentions migration of slavicized Goths from Vistula in 7th century to Balkans.
It is worth saying that in interwar period German historians Ludwig Glumpowitz and L. Hauptmann regarder Gothic origin of us as correct.

Not only Priest of Duklja but also Thomas the Archdeacon of Split in his "Historia Salonitana" in 13th century also writes about our Gothic origin, and about same Gothic migrations.

Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo writes about one mission of Neretvians in Venetia in 830. : "...Quia a Gothis originem traxerunt", which means "...which are descended from Goths".


Montenegrin town of Niksic was founded by Goths in 6th century. Our original name of that town in Onogosht, which is derived from Germanic name Anegast. At Skadar Gothic coins and buckles were found. Some linguists think that nearby clan of Hoti has some connection to Goths.
In Budva, too, Gothic material remnants were found, and also in early Christian basillica near Bijelo Polje where Gothic buckles and traces of destruction were found. Material remnants of Goths are also found all over Croatia and Bosnia.
Early christian basillica in Breza, Bosnia, is particularly interesting because there was found stone pillar with Gothic runic inscription.


And now about Gothic toponyms. Here are some from Bosnia and Montenegro, from book of Croatian historian Ivan Mužić: Onogošt, Ostrog, Gacko (also clan Gačani), Vareš, Hrgud, Brotnjo, Hardomilje, Argud, Otilovci, Konogovo, Gudelji... there are more of them which I don't remember.

Now let's look at Gothic remains in our languages. Our language, except for Scandinavian ones and Estonian, is only in Europe with pitch accent, and since Goths originate in Scandinavia it is very possible they brought it. There are also many Gothic words in our language, sadly many of them were removed during Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Here are some:

stijena-stains (Gothic): rock, brijeg-bjarg (Old Norse): hill, saian-sijati (Gothic): to sow, plaisan-plesati (Gothic): to dance, volja-vilja (Gothic): will, smokva-smakka (Gothic): fig, svrbjeti-swairban (Gothic): to itch, vrijedan-wairthan (Gothic): worthy, vještica-weihitha (Gothic): witch, stvoriti-stiurjan (Gothic): to create, trnje-thaurna (Gothic): thorns, wopjan-vapiti (Gothic): to cry out for help, svekrva/svekar-swaihra (Gothic): mother/father in-law, nećak-nithjus (Gothici): nephew, hrpa-haupaz (proto-Germanic): pile; bunch, ljekar-lekeis (Gothic): healer;doctor, frizura/češljanje-frisiaz (Gothic): hairstyle, bljesak-blason (proto-Germanic): blaze etc etc... There are over 1000 Gothic words in Chakavian dialect gathered by Croatian historian Mihovil Lovrić.

Now one interesting thing is connection between official religion of Bogomilism in medieval Bosnia and Arian heresy of the Goths. Gregor Cremosnik in 1937 is first historian to claim connection between Bogomilism and Arian heresy, because Bogomilism only appears there where Goths settled. It is interesting that popes often called Bosnians "arian heretics".

Stanko Guldescu:
"Both Tvrtko and Stjepan Tomašević (King Stephen of Bosnia) placed curiously ornate Gothic letters beneath the Bosnian crown and coat of arms. On many shileds found in Bosnia, and which antedate Muslim conquest, the typical device represented is that of moon and star, the design which appears on shield of Theodoric and other Ostrogothic kings, as well as on the mossaics that date from period of Ostrogothic rule at Ravenna. Also there is to be found on many of the oldest Bosnian gravestones (stećci) shields with this same device which was so popular among Ostrogoths. The German consul in Sarajevo in the last century was inspired by the noted historian, Theodor Mommsen, to undertake a study of Bosnian antiquities. He deduced a definite connection between strange-appearing Bosnian tombstones (stećci) and the Ostrogoths who ruled the area..."

I can also say that Slavs are most likely to have settled in parts of country fertile for agriculture, that is, in northern parts of Yugoslavia, while southern parts, in which I2a Din is more frequent was settled with Goths. Agriculture is EVERYTHING for Slavs. But in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro it is contrary. French general Viala de Somier, when he visited Montenegro in 1820 observed that population has very limited use of farming, that men leave hardest agricultural works to women while their only duty is war, raiding and herding cattle.

I will also mention anthropological research. According to Priest of Duklja, core of Goths resided in Prevalis (Montenegro).
In 1939 book "The Races of Europe" Carleton Coon lists Montenegrins as tallest and heaviest men in Europe, and finds out that most of them belong to Borreby subrace, which is most numerous in northern Germany and western Norway.

I hope that I shed some light on this interesting subject. I had a LOT of links and pictures to share with you but unfortunately I can't since I don't have 10 posts yet.

Its good that the slavs learnt some gothic language after the arrived in old yugoslavia....it was gothic land for 200 years

clintCG
29-12-14, 00:43
I already explained what our medieval sources say. It was easy for Goths to accept Slavic language because they saw an ally in Slavs that they could use to get rid of Byzantines. Now think about this: if we have I2a Din wouldn't it be logical that Slavs brought more R1a? Only explanation is that they came here and then Goths impregnated their women, but it doesn't make much sense :)
And if I2a Din is not Gothic, then where should we search for Gothic haplogroup in us? I'm pretty sure they weren't I1, because most of I1 here is P109, and has strange value of STR481=0. Man on Sicily was found with that same value, and Nordtvedt thinks he has common ancestor in last 900 years with our I1's, so it must be Normans of Robert Guiscar (our king married his daughter) brought it, not Goths. Prehistoric continuity theory is outdated anyways, so I see only potential carriers in Goths, and also Bastarnae maybe...

hrvat22
29-12-14, 12:14
For now it is known that I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 haplotype which have most Croatians and probably Montenegrins comes from White Croatia or southern Poland...

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html



I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a1Z16971
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a2Y4882
• • • • •• • • •I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

I2a1b2a1aS17250/YP204 is ancestor of our I2a1b2a1a3A356/Z16983

so far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460


How much Goths have with White Croatians should be seen ...


Maybe they were Goths who lived in a White Croatia and then in alliance with the Slavs together as Croatians come to the Balkan....who later begin to splits and become other nations....

This is the only logic based on y haplotypes if they ever were Goths...

arvistro
29-12-14, 15:43
Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.

hrvat22
29-12-14, 16:59
From their original homeland in southern Sweden Goths are in the middle of the first century. BC. Cr. switch to the area around the lower Vistula...

If this is true indeed some Goths came to the area of White Croatia...

It is possible that over there in the southern Poland ancestors of Croats lived under the Goths or in alliance...

Far as I know I2a type of haplotype which Croats have do not come from south Sweden to south Poland...Maybe someone knows differently and denied me ... it would mean that I2a could not be Gothic...

hrvat22
29-12-14, 17:14
Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic?
Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.




Prof.Mihovil Lovrić (https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhr.metapedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMihovil _Lovri%25C4%2587&ei=qXyhVNXgNIzXPNjfgZgE&usg=AFQjCNE3fSU4Mgp8BCt-ozjJ6cvGYgI4Tw&bvm=bv.82001339,d.ZWU)

has published abundant linguistic heritage of nearly a thousand Gothic and early Germanic words still preserved in our Croatian Chakavian dialect....


That's all I know about Gothic in Croatian language... which are these Gothic words and they similarities to other Slavic languages I do not know in detail...

LeBrok
29-12-14, 18:22
For now it is known that I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 haplotype which have most Croatians and probably Montenegrins comes from White Croatia or southern Poland...
.
We had a discussion about location of White Croatia here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30760-Slavic-R1a-clades/page2

sparkey
29-12-14, 19:17
Far as I know I2a type of haplotype which Croats have do not come from south Sweden to south Poland...Maybe someone knows differently and denied me ... it would mean that I2a could not be Gothic...

Pretty much this. There's no evidence of I2a-Din having spread from the Gothic homeland. I know that the location of the Gothic homeland is controversial, but under any best-guess I've seen, I2a-Din still isn't quite within range. I2a-Din's current distribution also doesn't match the spread of Goths very well. Why is it common among East Slavs, but not within former Visigothic territories?

sparkey
29-12-14, 19:26
And if I2a Din is not Gothic, then where should we search for Gothic haplogroup in us? I'm pretty sure they weren't I1, because most of I1 here is P109, and has strange value of STR481=0. Man on Sicily was found with that same value, and Nordtvedt thinks he has common ancestor in last 900 years with our I1's, so it must be Normans of Robert Guiscar (our king married his daughter) brought it, not Goths. Prehistoric continuity theory is outdated anyways, so I see only potential carriers in Goths, and also Bastarnae maybe...

Are you saying that most I1 in the Balkans is L22>P109? That doesn't sound right, do you have a link? From what I've seen, most I1 in the Balkans, or at least an unusually high percentage of it (I don't have precise numbers handy), is I1-Z63. Although I'm not familiar with the case of L22>P109 STR481=0 in the Balkans, I1-Z63 is fairly common there, it makes up a significant subset of the ~6% of people there who carry I1, and it has an eastern-leaning but still Germanic-looking distribution among I1 subclades. Altogether, I think that I1-Z63 in the Balkans is a reasonable place to start looking for Gothic influence in Balkans Y-DNA.

clintCG
29-12-14, 21:33
Let's clear out something- it is thought that Croats came from "White Croatia" because of great number of same toponyms. Czech and Polish historians like to negate existence of White Croatia. With Montenegro it is different story, our proto-homeland is thought to be northern and western Poland and also in Germany from both sides of river Elbe, because they found about hundred of same toponyms on Elbe like we today can find here. However, that would also mean that we should have fairly similar genetic makeup with Slavs who remained there, that is with Sorbs. Then why do they have about 65 percent of R1a, while we have under 10 percent of R1a? Maybe it is because those toponyms weren't spread with Slavs, because that was former land of Goths...
I think those toponyms are misleading and shouldn't be used so much in historiography.


Pretty much this. There's no evidence of I2a-Din having spread from the Gothic homeland. I know that the location of the Gothic homeland is controversial, but under any best-guess I've seen, I2a-Din still isn't quite within range. I2a-Din's current distribution also doesn't match the spread of Goths very well. Why is it common among East Slavs, but not within former Visigothic territories?
Are you actually aware about how Goths migrated? They migrated from what is today northern Poland (Gothic homeland pretty much) to Black Sea coast of Ukraine. After that when Huns pushed them they moved to areas south of river Danube in 370's- read part from book of Jordanes about it and you will find that they settled mostly in what is today Bosnia and surrounding states. And doesn't spread of I2a Din represent it? Nordtvedt located start of I2a Din and its splitting from I2a "Isles" and "Disles" in northern Poland 2500 years ago- and we all know this is long, long time before Slavs settled in, and that only known people which lived there were Goths. Now many say oldest homeland of Goths is Scandinavia and we don't know if we should trust Jordanes fully. But since proto-homeland of all Germanic peoples is Scandinavia they probably came to Poland from there, but much earlier than thought before, most suspect like in 750BC. Tacitus records only Poland as their homeland. Nordtvedt also said that "current spread of I2a Din is result of sudden expansion that happened possibly around 2000 years ago". So it started in Poland- where we today can see like 10 percent of I2a Din, they to Black Sea, where concentration increases, and finally they come to Dinaric alps where biggest concentration is.
You ask, how can I2a Din be present in eastern Slavs? Simply because part of Goths was actually subdued by Huns and remained on Ukraine Black sea coast- even Gothic dialect was spoken there until the 18th century (see Crimean Gothic). And about former Visigothic territories, we see that I1 (which you think is Gothic) and I2a Din are pretty much equal, or maybe I think I2a Din is even more numerous. It is also why you don't find so much I2a Din in Italy- because since early times Goths were settled in west Balkans and their expansion to Italy and Spain is result of only war conquest, not really settling. But I2a Din in Italy and Spain is still there in sizeable quantity. Also Sardinia was last settled by Vandals (east Germanic also) and it contains large amount of I2- although it is different from Dinaric one.
And let's go by logic- if all other I groups are Germanic (for example I1, I2b, I2a "Isles" and "Disles" which are closest to Dinaric), then how I2a Din is not?



Are you saying that most I1 in the Balkans is L22>P109? That doesn't sound right, do you have a link? From what I've seen, most I1 in the Balkans, or at least an unusually high percentage of it (I don't have precise numbers handy), is I1-Z63. Although I'm not familiar with the case of L22>P109 STR481=0 in the Balkans, I1-Z63 is fairly common there, it makes up a significant subset of the ~6% of people there who carry I1, and it has an eastern-leaning but still Germanic-looking distribution among I1 subclades. Altogether, I think that I1-Z63 in the Balkans is a reasonable place to start looking for Gothic influence in Balkans Y-DNA.
I don't know for northern parts of Yugoslavia, but in southern Bosnia, Herzegovina and Montenegro most of people that are I1 are I1 p109 with STR481=0. It is also called "Drobnjak clan cluster" because it was first found among 7 men from that clan. Other I1 can also be results from any other Germanic tribes, or from large number of German miners that settled here in medieval times, not just from Goths, which I already explained. Anyways our medieval sources mostly tell us of Gothic origin of people of this area.
IMO I think I2a Din is spread with Goths- but I would like to hear other's opinions on this subject.




Of those Croatian - Gothic loan words, how many are Croatian and how many Common Slavic? Are there any words present only in Croatian or at least only in South Slavic? Knowing Russian I notice quite a few cognates.
Yes, many words are only present in Croatian (by that I mean also in Bosnia, Montenegro and most of Serbia). Many actually look like Slavic but they are not- for example our word "vrijedan": in Russian -vredniy means harmful, while in our language vrijedan means worthy, which is same as Gothic wairthan. MOST of the words mentioned above are not common Slavic and are present ONLY in our language. I should add that some other words which are now "common Slavic" are actually spread to Slavic languages because of Old Church Slavonic and spread of Christianity, because it spread from south Slavic (linguistically speaking) lands to other Slavic ones.
As I mentioned there are many Slavic words in our language with totally different meaning in other languages: Russian word for diarrhea in our language means "pride" :)

hrvat22
29-12-14, 22:10
With Montenegro it is different story, our proto-homeland is thought to be northern and western Poland and also in Germany from both sides of river Elbe,

What this have to do with the genes today's population of Montenegro ..

If Montenegrins have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 and probably they have, the majority or half Montenegrins coming from White Croatia because there is a source of I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype...



Slavs who remained there, that is with Sorbs. Then why do they have about 65 percent of R1a, while we have under 10 percent of R1a?

Sorbs have R1a M458 and Croats R1a Z280....That there was a migration from area of Lusatian Sorbs to the Balkan that would be visible in our genes.....Therefore there is no migration outside the White Croatia to the Balkan and to Croatia...

arvistro
29-12-14, 22:14
According Underhill et al Croats have M458 as their main R1A clade.

clintCG
30-12-14, 00:27
What this have to do with the genes today's population of Montenegro ..
If Montenegrins have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 and probably they have, the majority or half Montenegrins coming from White Croatia because there is a source of I2a1b2a1a3 haplotype...
Sorbs have R1a M458 and Croats R1a Z280....That there was a migration from area of Lusatian Sorbs to the Balkan that would be visible in our genes.....Therefore there is no migration outside the White Croatia to the Balkan and to Croatia...
Well it has to do because that is what our official history tells us: that we are descended from Elbe Slavs and it's clearly wrong. R1a is only present in our northern areas, northern Croatia (Slavonija), northern Bosnia (Posavina) and northern Serbia (Vojvodina), again I say, because Slavs only settled in regions that are good for agriculture. Serbian medieval state of Raska was Slavic (R1a) too but they quickly migrated to north after Ottoman conquest and their lands were settled by I2a Din carriers. As I said if I2a Din originated in Poland 2500 years ago it is impossible that it is Slavic. Pattern of its distribution fits Gothic migrations perfectly.

hrvat22
30-12-14, 07:12
According Underhill et al Croats have M458 as their main R1A clade.


Most Croatians have R1a Z280 CTS3402.....

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dinaric_alps_dna/default.aspx?section=ymap



Lusatian Serbs and Croats are there in the adjacent columns from which it is clear that these two people have a very different distribution of branches haplogroup R1a.

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 (as in the eastern Slavs and the Carpathians)

Apparently the White Croats and Croats from the Carpathian Mountains to the Adriatic they are related people. About Lusatian Sorbs and Danube Serbs can not be said - they were too different lineage...

Translation from Russian .... answer to the question ... I. Rozhansky 2013/10/18 (http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/#comment-3067) geneticist and expert for R1a haplogroup

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

hrvat22
30-12-14, 07:55
Well it has to do because that is what our official history tells us: that we are descended from Elbe Slavs and it's clearly wrong. R1a is only present in our northern areas, northern Croatia (Slavonija), northern Bosnia (Posavina) and northern Serbia (Vojvodina), again I say, because Slavs only settled in regions that are good for agriculture. Serbian medieval state of Raska was Slavic (R1a) too but they quickly migrated to north after Ottoman conquest and their lands were settled by I2a Din carriers. As I said if I2a Din originated in Poland 2500 years ago it is impossible that it is Slavic. Pattern of its distribution fits Gothic migrations perfectly.


Serbian scientist Milos Bogdanovic in the book Curse of Nations from 2004, clearly states that in medieval Serbian capital Ras in more than half skeleton of the medieval Serbs is blood type B, which is the Avar and Hun origin, which means that the Serbs originally an Avar group ...



Serbian scientist Miloš Bogdanović, book Curse of Nations, 2004.


The skeletons of the medieval Serbian capital Ethnicity 0 blood type is represented only in 13.9% of the skeleton, which is drastically less than 42% as much as we meet in the population of Kosovo at mid-century. This means that in the ninth and tenth century Serbs were very few mixed with Dinarics and Mediterraneans characterized by 0 blood group, while they were very mixed with the Avars. In fact, almost every second skeleton was found in the Ras, had a gene for blood type B, either inherited only from one, either of both parents.



As I said if I2a Din originated in Poland 2500 years ago it is impossiblethat it is Slavic.

How is impossible when over there all types of R1a haplotypes are in the most-percentage through thousands of years ... and Croatian type I2a is in the center ...I'm not saying that I2a which Croats have is originally Slavic but in this area is with the Slavs several thousand years.... and if they are in alliance with R1a haplotype arrived in Croatia apparently they arrived as Slavs...


Is I2a before 5000 years was Gothic, Germanic, Turkish it has nothing to do with arrival of Croats as Slavs, perhaps early speakers of R1a did not speak Slavic and perhaps they felt as Turkmens ..who knows ...it has nothing to do with their present Slavic origin...

arvistro
30-12-14, 07:56
Wait in that link there are only 2 Croats with known R1a subclade.