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Fustan
10-11-17, 15:10
Great Slavic migration have never happened. Tibor Zivkovic said that only 1-3% of the nobles came to the Balkan during the so-called the great migration. I will cite Mario Alinei:In short, if such an enormous expansion of the Slavs both to the South and to theNorth from their alleged homeland in Middle-Eastern Europe had really taken place, themost important evidence we should expect to find would be archaeological. Which isentirely missing. Just as we miss any discussion of this point in Mallory’s book –andcertainly not by accident, given the fact that Mallory is an archaeologist. I fail to see,then, how an archaeologist can advance the hypothesis of a massive expansion thatinvolves half of Europe, and is capable of entirely changing its linguistic identity,without the slightest archaeological evidence: unless it is a curious case ofunderestimation of one’s own science.Another fundamental objection to this thesis lies in the fact that, following thetraditional scenario, we would have to assume that this ‘great migration’ involved alsothe Southern Slavic area: an absolute impossibility, as we have just seen. If there hasbeen a ‘migration’, it must have proceded from South northwards. A third, fundamental objection to this thesis is the contradiction between theidea of a medieval migration and the total disappearance of the presumed pre-existinglanguages. Not even modern mass migration and colonization, despite the enormoustechnological and cultural difference between the migrants and the indigenous people,have caused the total extinction of all autocthonous languages in the New World. Theideal of the extinction of all alleged pre-Indo-European languages because of a CopperAge IE migration is already hard enough to admit, given the same reason, plus the factthat research on pre-Indo-European has never produced any serious result (Alinei 1996,2000). How can we accept such an idea for the Early Middle Ages, and for the highlycivilized areas of Southern Eastern prehistoric Europe? What and where would the preIndo-Europeansubstrate be in Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia andSlovenia? Unless we associate this late migration to a gigantic genocide – aphantascientific hypothesis – this hypothesis does not belong to serious scientificthinking.

stopped reading here

Fatherland
10-11-17, 15:23
stopped reading here
These hidden, spineless accounts such as the one you quoted have set their roots deeply in these foras to spread misinformation.

They must all be banished!

Wonomyro
10-11-17, 15:59
It is not about massive migration, but the massive depopulation that preceeded the migration. Then even a small number of immigrants could rule over the empty land and grow in number with time.

I found a support for that in Ralph and Coop paper:


The migration period. One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area.

That one was easy...

Angela
10-11-17, 19:42
We don't have any reliable way of knowing at present how much "repopulation" took place during the migration period. The only way we will know is to compare ancient samples from the Balkans from before the Migration period to after it. Anything else is just speculation and wishful thinking.

What is clear is that people from the Balkans, including Croatians, have a lot more "farmer" ancestry and ancestry from Iran/the Caucasus than people like the Ukrainians and Poles, so there was no "replacement" in the Balkans: there was admixture.

Miroslav
11-11-17, 05:55
What is clear is that people from the Balkans, including Croatians, have a lot more "farmer" ancestry and ancestry from Iran/the Caucasus than people like the Ukrainians and Poles, so there was no "replacement" in the Balkans: there was admixture.

Founder effect and bottleneck could do a significant influence on the population ethnogenesis, however, you are right. The truth is in the middle - admixture happened. These extreme considerations, that there were massive depopulation and repopulation, or that there were no massive depopulation and repopulation, are by argumentation and conclusion more wrong than right. For example, previously in a long post (#1189), I noted that archaeologists on the territory of former Yugoslavia rather proved continuity from antique period rather than discontinuity. Hence, such extreme viewpoints represent a specific cultural-political i.e. ideological agenda (for e.g. the Yugoslavian pan-Slavic autochthonous theory, or if migration theory then "Hrabak emphasized that South Slavic scholarship and Serbian nationalists tried to neglect or minimize (making it a social term) the contribution of Vlachs in their ethnogenesis and history because the old-Balkan element insulted their idea of pure Slavs" as Vlachs were historiographically considered as a population of non-Slavic origin), rather than scientifically neutral research.

For example, according to "Standing at the Gateway to Europe - The Genetic Structure of Western Balkan Populations Based on Autosomal and Haploid Markers" (2014), the "Figure 2. ADMIXTURE analysis of autosomal SNPs of the Western Balkan region in a global context on the resolution level of 7 assumed ancestral populations (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g002)" perfectly shows such admixture in Western and Eastern Balkan; from the Middle East and Caucasus (Red), South Europe (Light Blue), and East Europe (Dark Blue).

Milan.M
11-11-17, 09:32
......................

Wonomyro
11-11-17, 12:23
We don't have any reliable way of knowing at present how much "repopulation" took place during the migration period. The only way we will know is to compare ancient samples from the Balkans from before the Migration period to after it. Anything else is just speculation and wishful thinking.

That is one way of course. But in a meantime we have Ralph and Coop IBD analysis. The method they used takes the time parameter into account, which is not case with the methods you are suggesting. That is why we should trust R&C more then to the others.


What is clear is that people from the Balkans, including Croatians, have a lot more "farmer" ancestry and ancestry from Iran/the Caucasus than people like the Ukrainians and Poles, so there was no "replacement" in the Balkans: there was admixture.

First you should prove that the present day Poles and Ukrainians are prototypes of the early Slavs. The method that Ralph and Coop use overcomes that problem. They don’t care about the name and location of the common ancestry. They only quantify it. And their numbers clearly show that West-South-Slavs share “lot more” ancestry with present day Poles during the period of Roman Empire then with all others in a study.

Angela
11-11-17, 16:42
That is one way of course. But in a meantime we have Ralph and Coop IBD analysis. The method they used takes the time parameter into account, which is not case with the methods you are suggesting. That is why we should trust R&C more then to the others.



First you should prove that the present day Poles and Ukrainians are prototypes of the early Slavs. The method that Ralph and Coop use overcomes that problem. They don’t care about the name and location of the common ancestry. They only quantify it. And their numbers clearly show that West-South-Slavs share “lot more” ancestry with present day Poles during the period of Roman Empire then with all others in a study.

Again, you are misinterpreting the Ralph and Coop study because you don't understand the difference between IBD analysis and whole genome comparisons using ADMIXTURE and formal stats, especially when used with ancient samples.

Yes, Ralph and Coop show that there is IBD sharing between the people in the Balkans and people in Poland/Ukraine, and that it increased during the Migration Period.

What it doesn't show is what percentage of the entire genome of modern Balkanites can be attributed to the pre-Slavic inhabitants of the Balkans versus the newcomers.

That has to be accomplished using other methods, and they would be the first to tell you that.

The inhabitants of the modern Balkans do not share more ancestry with Poles/Ukrainians than with any other groups. Bulgarians/Romanians, for example, are closest to Northern Italians.

Someone who can't understand the methods used by population geneticists or their findings the findings of academic papers just confuses himself and others.

Wonomyro
11-11-17, 16:58
Again, you are misinterpreting the Ralph and Coop study because you don't understand the difference between IBD analysis and whole genome comparisons using ADMIXTURE and formal stats, especially when used with ancient samples. Yes, Ralph and Coop show that there is IBD sharing between the people in the Balkans and people in Poland/Ukraine, and that it increased during the Migration Period. What it doesn't show is what percentage of the entire genome of modern Balkanites can be attributed to the pre-Slavic inhabitants of the Balkans versus the newcomers. That has to be accomplished using other methods, and they would be the first to tell you that. The inhabitants of the modern Balkans do not share more ancestry with Poles/Ukrainians than with any other groups. Bulgarians/Romanians, for example, are closest to Northern Italians. Someone who can't understand the methods used by population geneticists or their findings the findings of academic papers just confuses himself and others.

This is NOT what I said. Who speaks about "people in the Balkans" or "modern Balkanites"?

I am talking about West-South-Slavs (Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Slovenians).

I DON'T speak about Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians.

Please note that and check the diagrams again.

Angela
11-11-17, 17:45
This is NOT what I said. Who speaks about "people in the Balkans" or "modern Balkanites"? I am talking about West-South-Slavs (Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Slovenians). I DON'T speak about Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians. Please note that and check the diagrams again.

Go on the internet and find some papers on IBD analysis. Read the Ralph and Coop paper again. Look at the graphs again. Ralph and Coop are not producing data on the total genetic similarity of people in the Balkans versus people in Poland, for example. You have to use programs like ADMIXTURE, f3 stats and even newer methods for that. Until you understand that you're going to continue to draw wrong conclusions. Unless, of course, that's what you want to do.

Then go back and read the Kovacevic paper again. Look at the admixture runs for goodness sakes'. You'd have to be blind not to see it. The differences between the people of the Balkans are minimal. There was no complete population replacement in the Balkans. Yes, the Croatians are the most "northern" of the Balkan peoples, if that's so important to you, although you have a lot of variation. However, your closest population looks like the Hungarians, a Central European population with a lot of Germanic influence, and a lot of Neolithic ancestry from the LBK all the way to the MN and LN, not Poles or Ukrainians. Propaganda has really done a number on people from the Balkans.

Click to enlarge.

9450

No matter what you were taught or what your ideology leads you to want to believe, Croatians are not ethnic Slavs, although you have ancestry from them.

Wonomyro
11-11-17, 18:38
Go on the internet and find some papers on IBD analysis. Read the Ralph and Coop paper again. Look at the graphs again. Ralph and Coop are not producing data on the total genetic similarity of people in the Balkans versus people in Poland, for example. You have to use programs like ADMIXTURE, f3 stats and even newer methods for that. Until you understand that you're going to continue to draw wrong conclusions. Unless, of course, that's what you want to do.

In my previous post I asked you not to misinterpret my words, and here it is again:

You said: “total genetic similarity of people in the Balkans versus people in Poland”

1. Who on earth mentioned any “TOTAL genetic similarityof people in the Balkans”. Where and when have I said that?

2. Haven’t I said in the previous post that it is NOT about “people in the Balkans versus people in Poland”. It IS about people in Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Slovenia versus people in Poland. It is a BIG difference. If you don't want to understand such a simple thing the whole furher conversation is pointless.


Then go back and read the Kovacevic paper again. Look at the admixture runs for goodness sakes'. You'd have to be blind not to see it. The differences between the people of the Balkans are minimal. There was no complete population replacement in the Balkans. Yes, the Croatians are the most "northern" of the Balkan peoples, if that's so important to you, although you have a lot of variation. However, your closest population looks like the Hungarians, a Central European population with a lot of Germanic influence, and a lot of Neolithic ancestry from the LBK all the way to the MN and LN, not Poles or Ukrainians. Propaganda has really done a number on people from the Balkans.

Don’t you understand that we are not talking about the differences in the means of prehistorical genetic components. We are tracing historical migrations! Again:

1. I am not talking about Balkans as whole. I am talking about Croats (and Slovenains, Serbs, Bosnians). The difference is big.

2. I am not talking about “complete population replacement”, I am talking about high level of shared ancestry between Poles and Croats from the times of Roman Empire. Please check the diagrams (3rd row, 1st column):

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g005

and (images C and E):

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g003


No matter what you were taught or what your ideology leads you to want to believe, Croatians are not ethnic Slavs, although you have ancestry from them.

How on earth can someone get to such conclusion from EHG, WHG and EEF combination?!

Let me cite one respectable member of this forum: "IBD doesn't lie, my friend...at least not when done by people of this caliber...". :grin:

Wonomyro
12-11-17, 09:59
A medieval I2a-Din (S17250) was found in Russia (Sungir6) not long ago:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34097-Early-Medieval-Slavic-DNA-(years-600-900-AD)?p=521178&viewfull=1#post521178

Some data from the thread:



# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 3.62
2 Polish 4.33
3 Estonian_Polish 4.6
4 Russian_Smolensk 4.72
5 Southwest_Russian 4.9
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 5.39
7 Belorussian 5.9
8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 5.92
9 South_Polish 5.99
10 Kargopol_Russian 8.67
11 Lithuanian 8.82
12 Estonian 9.47
13 Croatian 10.93
14 Erzya 11.03
15 Finnish 12.01
16 East_Finnish 12.5
17 Southwest_Finnish 12.82
18 Moldavian 13.9
19 Hungarian 15.11
20 East_German 16.04

Wonomyro
12-11-17, 10:26
Another medieval sample from Silesia (Poland):

NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

That one could be easily I2a-Din as well.

Milan.M
12-11-17, 10:59
No matter what you were taught or what your ideology leads you to want to believe, Croatians are not ethnic Slavs, although you have ancestry from them.
I agree with most things you write,but i have question for you here.
What is ethnic Slav for you? in your perception,what define a Slav? How genetically Slav look like,since you are talking about genetics here.

Then please tell me what genetic Italian is?


I am interested in ethnic "genetic" Slav and ethnic "genetic" Italian?

Because you are Italian and i am South Slav,that's why i brought up Italians.

Milan.M
12-11-17, 11:07
.................

Wonomyro
12-11-17, 11:32
There is something strange going on! I got some negative points but I can't identify their source and reason:

10-11-17 20:00 Wonomyro has lost -20 Points for User points

11-11-17 17:30 Wonomyro has lost -38 Points for User points

It is quite a lot. No warning, no explanation. It happened during my debate with @Angela about the origin of South-Slavic people but I don't want to believe that @Angela, as moderator, would misuse her power in such a way.

Zanatis
12-11-17, 12:04
There is something strange going on! I got some negative points but I can't identify their source and reason:

10-11-17 20:00 Wonomyro has lost -20 Points for User points

11-11-17 17:30 Wonomyro has lost -38 Points for User points

It is quite a lot. No warning, no explanation. It happened during my debate with @Angela about the origin of South-Slavic people but I don't want to believe that @Angela, as moderator, would misuse her power in such a way.
I had the same for simply disagreeing with Angela that Anthrogenica is not such a bad forum. Imagine the irony. The only explanation is that she's got freedom to do what she wants from Maciamo as in the end "it's just an internet forum, right?". Take your daily anger and insecurity on people online.

I've been warned already for "provocation", so I guess this will be my last post in here lol

Wonomyro
13-11-17, 15:40
11th century Moravia! "Genomic and isotopes Study shed light into mobility of medieval individuals from Central Europe":

https://www.academia.edu/35123252/Genomic_and_isotopic_studies_shed_light_into_the_m obility_of_medieval_individuals_from_Central_Europ e

From the poster:


Dětkovice was thought to be situated near the old amber route that led from the South of Europe to the North. It awas also relatively close to Olomouc - important centre of Přemyslid colonization of Moravia and important node on the trade route between Bohemia and Kiev.

There is a PCA plot in there. The 11th century Moravians plot near present day Hungarians and Croatians.


Olomouc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc

Dětkovice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%9Btkovice_(Prost%C4%9Bjov_District) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%9Btkovice_%28Prost%C4%9Bjov_District%29)

Přemyslid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%99emyslid_dynasty

Charváty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charv%C3%A1ty

(thanks to user Waldemar from the "bad" forum who let us know about the poster)

Neander
15-12-17, 02:26
It is no serious, in any case, to clasify I2a as a Illyrian. It is just bosniak-croatian ill pride to be 'autochthonous' everyway

I2a is present among Slavic people like belorrusians, who nobody can link to illyrians. Also it is present among moldavians who in comparison with romanians are more slavic in race and origins, and were romanized, moldavs ara neodanubian anthropological type. So even those fanatics who doesnt accept illyrian origins of albanians, there is facts against illyrians theory of haplogroup I2a

But for those who have open eyes and mind, there is plenty of fact in albanian language, culture, which is derived from ilyrians mostly, and than with many elements from thracians and dacians, who were dislocated in albanian lands fleeing from teh barbaric-slavic invasion.

Simply I2a came together with people who brought it in Balkans: Serbs and Croats, and other slavs as well.

Albanians are the sole inheritors of neolithic population, while others cannot be considered as such:
- Vlachs are remnants of melting pot of Roman Empire
- today greeks were hellenized albanians, slavs, vlachs and reinforced by Karamanlides ande Pontic greeks, with no greek genetics
- Slavs are newcomers in the 7th century (the same time arabs occupied Israel)

Albanians are inheritors of Paleobalkanic people (Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Epirotes, Macedonians).

We can say for sure the were three consequences for paleobalkanic people during slavic invasion:
- masacre, genocide, ("roads were filled with piles of killed people", "Slavs seized Asbadus, flayed his backs skin, and roasted him in fire" Procopie)
- fleeing for example, creation of diocese of Dacia for dacian & illyrian newcomers from dacia after 274 when Goths occupied dacia, yes there were illyrian miners in dacia which return in albanian lands (Dalmatians, Sardeates, Pirustes etc)
- assimilation - disimilarity between slavs and albanians, tell us that there was little assimilation, it is more pronounced in Montenegrins, less in serbs, and far less in croatians and bosniaks who pretend to be 'illyrians'

Even, that autosomal "Balkanic" genetic were borrowed through the mothers line, because there is no the same spread of masculine haplogroups and ausotosmal dna, they have different percentages fro example: Croatians have 60-70% Balkanic admixture very simmilar to albanians with more than 80%, but they are far different from albanians in masculine haplogroups: in albanian people dominate neolithic haplogroups Ev13 and J2b, while in croatians dominate slavic haplogroups I2a and R1a.

That means that Slavs were inveding generation after generation a new region begining from Slavic Uhreimat and finishing in todays yugoslavic lands. After each generation slavic admixture was dimidiated (that means 50% less) because of mixing with paleobalkanic women kidnaped during the invasion, but newcomers masculine haplogroups remained high in these newcomers populations, while is very low in autochthonous remnants (Albanians)

I think that time hes come for the main contributors of this forum to unterstand reality which is seen with simple eye, even from the airplane.

This reality is, that I2a cannot be linked with illyrians, not even in small percentages, there is no I2a in Balkans before the slavic invasion. This haplogroup in albanians is from slavs assimilated in albanian language who forgot their identity and mixed with albanians.

Dumidre
15-12-17, 23:21
The main difference between north Slavs and south Slavs is the percentage of I2a... unless the south Slavs got the I2a from Amazon.com (they have EVERYTHING) [emoji16], they have mixed with the people that lived in the Danube area already and were I2a... so I2a is not original Slavic but it did spread with the growing Slavic presence in the Balkans.
BTY, Vlachs are Daco-Romans and not just remnants of melting pot of Roman Empire... also Moldovan people are the same as Vlachs; language is the same as proof. Moldovan tend to have more percentage of I2a BECAUSE of the Dacian substrate (after Romans took over Dacia, there were free Dacians right where Present Moldova is now).


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

MaxCRO
31-12-17, 18:42
No matter what you were taught or what your ideology leads you to want to believe, Croatians are not ethnic Slavs, although you have ancestry from them.

Are you serious ?

:embarassed:

Angela
31-12-17, 19:50
Are you serious ?

:embarassed:

Yes, I'm serious, are you? What scientific evidence do you have to back up the nonsense propaganda that you were fed?

That was a rhetorical question, so don't bother answering. The answer is none.

Don't you think your time would be better spent trying to get rid of the vestiges of being part of the Iron Curtain countries for decades, and making amends for behavior during the war instead of trying to find non-existent proof for the toxic identity myths that you all were fed?

Angela
31-12-17, 20:20
Just as I thought: no answer.

You and Milan and the Croatian can keep on down voting my posts forever. Do you think I'm childish enough to care? God, where are the adults interested in these topics? I'm surrounded by 20 somethings, which in this day and age is like being surrounded by middle school students. Grow up.

Since you obviously do care about this nonsense, however, mine are worth ten times yours. Contemplate that as you dream of your minority "Slavic" ancestry.

hrvat22
31-12-17, 22:14
Yes, I'm serious, are you? What scientific evidence do you have to back up the nonsense propaganda that you were fed?

That was a rhetorical question, so don't bother answering. The answer is none.

Don't you think your time would be better spent trying to get rid of the vestiges of being part of the Iron Curtain countries for decades, and making amends for behavior during the war instead of trying to find non-existent proof for the toxic identity myths that you all were fed?


In 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula..

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf


So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: 20 May 2014.


May 4, 2017
In fact there is still only one known man who is CTS10228+ S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-, he has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.hr/2017/05/may-2017-draft-trees-for-i-l621-and-i.html


European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE. Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade,


The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis,

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml


The Croatian R1a-Y2608 also expanded from Poland during the same period, but via Czechia, Slovakia, Austria and Slovenia.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml


Stiljsko, southwestern Ukraine ..From VI. until the 9th century
of this micro-region in intercourse
rivers Barvinka, Ilovac, Kolodnica and
The tooth, which is left by Dnjistra,
gave insight into existence in IX. one
of the largest in East Timor
a region with a strong fortified Croatian
city. Its fortified area
it is almost 250 ha long and the length of the defenses
the line reaches 10 km. Around
on a site of 200 km2
.
there were numerous Croatian sites
VI.-XI. (naseobine, gradina, grobi-
what, cult centers). Found rich
Archaeological material proves that it was old
Croatian township functioned in
time from the middle of the IX. to the beginning of XI.

https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=17599


From the Polish territories called Lingonia seven or eight tribal clans arrived under Totilo. When they saw that the Croatian land would be suitable for habitation because in it there were few Roman colonies, they sought and obtained for their duke...The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Salonitana


Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:

2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...
Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches of affiliates that have the common denominator of the Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from the Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about the "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from the Carpathians to the Adriatic are really close peoples. You can not say about Lužičani Serbs and Danubian Serbs - they are too different in the line

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/


Toponyms and hydronyms that Croats brought from Carpatian to Croatia, it would take more than 17 pages of the book to bring them all up

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-content/uploads/Toponimi-s-Karpata.jpg


Czech Tribes and Prince's Territories

Charvati, Charvatci ie. Croats

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

Here is also present one toponym Zahvozd (Czech) and in Croatia exist Zagvozd and Gvozd..

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagvozd

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gvozd

Chlum (Czech)

Croatian...Hum,

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hum_(Buzet)

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hum

Vranik (Czech)

Croatia, Vranik

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vranik

etc..





John the Deacon (Italian: Giovanni Diacono or Giovanni da Venezia;. (940- 1018)
"Qui (Petrus) dum Chroatorum fines rediens transire vellet, a Michahele Sclavorum duce fraude deceptus...
[While he (Peter) was returning from Croatian territory he was deceived through fraud by Michael, duke of the Slavs...]
Michael of Zahumlje(913 – 926), also known as Michael Višević...



etc...

In most of the population and the male line Croats are undeniable Slavic origin, ie. White Croatian origin.


Greetings from Croatia, happy new year and all the best everyone !!!

Wonomyro
01-01-18, 20:15
FYI your country was under a communist dictatorship for decades. I know all about Tito, as I know all about the history of Croatian Nazism, and as I know about the atrocities committed barely a generation ago.

Angela, what does "communist dictatorship", Tito and "Croatian Nazism" have to do with genetics and the early medieval history?

This is one of my favourite websites. We wouldn't like to see it becoming a polygon for spreading political stereotypes about Croats. How would you react if I mention Italian Fascism and Mafia each time I disagree with some Italian? When you already mentioned "Croatian Nazism" (what is that anyway?) you should have also mention that the protagonists of what you called "Croatian Nazism" were financed and trained in the Italian camps before WWII and installed in Croatia right after the occupation of Yugoslavia. A member of an Italian royal dynasty was their king... should I stop with politics now?


"ETHNIC Croats is a slavic language speaker, with slavic mother tongue."

So, does that mean everyone in the U.S. whose mother tongue is English is ETHNIC English? Have you ever looked at a PCA? German speakers plot with one another. You think you plot with Russians and Poles?

The parallels with America don't work here. It is Europe and processes were different.

Technically speaking you are right when saying that Croats are not ethnic Slavs, because Slavs nowadays are not an ethnic group. They are only a language group. But neither Poles and Russians, whom you use for comparison, are ethnic Slavs in that regard. They are also members of a language group. However, that does not mean that such ethnic group or groups didn’t exist in 9th century or earlier. Historical sources recognized them under a name Slavs although the latter used other names for themselves e. g. Croats, Czechs....

Croats have been Slavs at least since the times when they were first mentioned under their ethnic name. All subsequent genetic contributions, that surely existed, haven't changed that fact. The continuity of a language, ethnic name and the external perception remained throughout the centuries. Now we also see that genetics is proving what linguists and most of historians already know, the Croats are of the Slavic stock, in spite of some dubious forum interpretations.

And please stop patronizing (or should I say matronizing) people from certain countries. We didn't lived in the trees before we met Angela. Happy new year!

srdceleva
01-01-18, 21:10
Angela, what does "communist dictatorship", Tito and "Croatian Nazism" have to do with genetics and the early medieval history?



Croats do have a substantial amount of genetic influence from a polish/russian like source. Croats from all balkan slavs still have a massive amount of polish type dna, probably around 50%. Croats do not cluster with albanians and greeks who most people would consider as more unmixed balkan natives. Pca plots are not the best representation of genetic relatedness. Me and my american grandmother are light years away from each other on a PCA plot yet are more closely related than anyone besides my immediate family. Its already been proven that eastern europeans share more IBD strands with eachother than western europeans do so again we cant take pca plots at point blank. Croatians have significant slavic ancestry whatever definition people use, it would be totally incorrect to say they arent slavs genetically.

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Angela
01-01-18, 21:22
^^NO ONE EVER SAID OTHERWISE!

Stop with the straw man arguments. You know better, Srdceleva.

srdceleva
01-01-18, 21:35
^^NO ONE EVER SAID OTHERWISE!

Stop with the straw man arguments. You know better, Srdceleva.I wasnt arguing with you Angela, he said technically croats arent ethnic slavs and I was just pointing out thats not correct, at least not completely.

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Wonomyro
01-01-18, 22:04
I wasnt arguing with you Angela, he said technically croats arent ethnic slavs and I was just pointing out thats not correct, at least not completely.

@srdceleva, the ethnic Slavs from 9th century split into several nations over time: Croats, Poles, Slovaks etc. so the original ethnic Slavs do not exists any more. That is what I mean. This is why I said that Croats “technically” can’t be Slavs, only linguistically. However that does not negate the common ethnic and genetic origin of these nations, what @Angela unsuccessfully is trying to do in regard to my nation for the reasons to me unknown.

Angela
01-01-18, 22:18
I am going to say this as simply as possible. If you can't get this then there is no point holding intellectual discussions with you.

I have never said, nor would I ever say, that Croats don't have ancestry from the people who brought the Slavic languages to the Balkans. I think that 50% figure is about right.

The point is that there is another 50% to be accounted for...which comes from people who inhabited those lands before the migrations of the Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages.

Do you get it now?????

Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend when it is so blindingly obvious to anyone who has studied population genetics for fifteen minutes?

srdceleva
01-01-18, 23:05
I am going to say this as simply as possible. If you can't get this then there is no point holding intellectual discussions with you.

I have never said, nor would I ever say, that Croats don't have ancestry from the people who brought the Slavic languages to the Balkans. I think that 50% figure is about right.

The point is that there is another 50% to be accounted for...which comes from people who inhabited those lands before the migrations of the Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages.

Do you get it now?????

Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend when it is so blindingly obvious to anyone who has studied population genetics for fifteen minutes?

I agree, problem with the balkans is most people either claim to be hard core slavs or have nothing to do with them. Southern slavdom is schyzophrenic.

Angela
01-01-18, 23:15
I agree, problem with the balkans is most people either claim to be hard core slavs or have nothing to do with them. Southern slavdom is schyzophrenic.

I can't upvote your post, but I would if I could. :)

Wonomyro
01-01-18, 23:21
This is the second infraction that I got for a benign reason. It is time for the owners of this forum to think about the quality of the moderation. Moderators should not use infractions as a tool to discourage members whose posts do not fit into their political agendas. Instead a culture of dialogue and tolerance towards different views should be promoted. I got this infraction because I reacted to the clearly chauvinistic series of posts of a member who is a moderator at the same time and it is the least person who should promote such a practice. At that point I do not care whether I am going to get another infraction. If I am not welcome here, there are other very good forums around. No big deal.



You have received an infraction at Eupedia Forum

Dear Wonomyro,

You have received an infraction at Eupedia Forum.

Reason: Insulted or provoked a Team Member
-------
You have insulted and provoked a team member.

Keep it up and you know the consequences.
-------

This infraction is worth 4 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Wonomyro
01-01-18, 23:31
I agree, problem with the balkans is most people either claim to be hard core slavs or have nothing to do with them. Southern slavdom is schyzophrenic.

For instance?

srdceleva
01-01-18, 23:38
For instance?You have to admit many members of former jugoslavian countries either claim to be the original slavs or claim to be illyrians and genetically not slavic at all. Ive also seen numerous threads on forums of serbs and croatians arguing non stop about how they speak either the same or completely different languages. Im not saying there arent reasonable southern slavs but when ancestry and language comes up on a thread when dealing with croats or serbs its constantly the same arguments.

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Wonomyro
02-01-18, 00:10
You have to admit many members of former jugoslavian countries either claim to be the original slavs or claim to be illyrians and genetically not slavic at all. Ive also seen numerous threads on forums of serbs and croatians arguing non stop about how they speak either the same or completely different languages. Im not saying there arent reasonable southern slavs but when ancestry and language comes up on a thread when dealing with croats or serbs its constantly the same arguments.

There are many low quality discussions around, that’s true. Some of the main reasons for the mass disagreement whether the south Slavs are (genetically) autochtonous lays in the early ideas of the origin of their dominant I2a haplotype. It was believed that the hg was Illyrian and is present in Dalmatia since Paleoloitic. In an meantime it was discovered that the South Slavic clade is too young and its origin is most probably somewhere more North and it led to a new conclusion that the hg must have came with the Slavic migrations. The knowledge in this field is changing so rapidly that not all people can follow. You can see it even in the Eupedia articles on the I2a haplogroup, only 2 or 3 years ago, the story of the origin of I2a haplogroup was completely different (and nobody, of course, should call Eupedia schizophrenic for that).

Just check the votes presented on the top of this page. It speaks for itself.

hrvat22
02-01-18, 20:27
Angela (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/28734-Angela)


The point is that there is another 50% to be accounted for...which comes from people who inhabited those lands before the migrations of the Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages.


Who are these people through male line ie. which haplotypes ?

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I2a 37%
R1a 24%
I1 5,5%

It is 66,5% populations that have nothing to do with the Balkans or with period before two thousand years ago, since Slovenes have a strong west types of R1b it is very possible that a part of the Croatian R1b is not Balkan origin, it means that E1b and J2b types remains as Balkans origin, however in E1b haplogroups there is one branch or subclade PH1246 which probably comes with Slavs.

This means that Croats on the male line have around 25% Y haplotypes (aboriginal) from Balkans mostly assimilated from Vlah-Albanians three hundred years ago.

hrvat22
02-01-18, 20:32
I agree, problem with the balkans is most people either claim to be hard core slavs or have nothing to do with them. Southern slavdom is schyzophrenic.

About 25% of the Croat by the male line has no connection with the Slavs (most of them assimilated before three hundred or two hundred years ago), it does not mean that I can not say that Croatians are Slavs.

hrvat22
02-01-18, 20:37
You have to admit many members of former jugoslavian countries either claim to be the original slavs or claim to be illyrians and genetically not slavic at all. Ive also seen numerous threads on forums of serbs and croatians arguing non stop about how they speak either the same or completely different languages. Im not saying there arent reasonable southern slavs but when ancestry and language comes up on a thread when dealing with croats or serbs its constantly the same arguments.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Only tribe whom genetics confirmed historical record and migration to Balkans are Croats, the rest is logic (language, etc..).

Shetop
02-01-18, 20:42
Only tribe whom genetics confirmed historical record and migration to Balkans are Croats, the rest is logic (language, etc..).

Which historical record is that precisely?

Angela
02-01-18, 20:50
Who are these people through male line ie. which haplotypes ?

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I2a 37%
R1a 24%
I1 5,5%

It is 66,5% populations that have nothing to do with the Balkans or with period before two thousand years ago, since Slovenes have a strong west types of R1b it is very possible that a part of the Croatian R1b is not Balkan origin, it means that E1b and J2b types remains as Balkans origin, however in E1b haplogroups there is one branch or subclade PH1246 which probably comes with Slavs.

This means that Croats on the male line have around 25% Y haplotypes (aboriginal) from Balkans mostly assimilated from Vlah-Albanians three hundred years ago.

I was talking about autosomal dna, not yDna. Ydna only accounts for about 2% of your total genetic make-up.

Once again, let me use an extreme example. The herders in some areas of the Cameroons almost all carry R1b. This is what they look like...
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Data/Cameroon_1.jpg

Y dna does not tell the whole story where individuals are concerned.

The fact that Croats may carry only 25% non "Slavic" y dna doesn't mean they are 75% "Slavic", or, said, another way, that they are only 25% non-Slavic.

It doesn't work that way.

Perhaps if you read this you'll understand it better...

"There are three major types of genealogical DNA tests: Autosomal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosome) and X-DNA, Y-DNA and mtDNA.


Autosomal tests look at chromosomes 1–22 and X. The autosomes (chromosomes 1–22) are inherited from both parents and all recent ancestors. The X-chromosome follows a special inheritance pattern. Ethnicity estimates are often included with this sort of testing.
Y-DNA looks at the Y-chromosome, which is inherited father to son, and so can only be taken by males to explore their direct paternal line.
mtDNA looks at the mitochondria, which is inherited from mother to child and so can be used to explore one's direct maternal line.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test#cite_note-1)

Y-DNA and mtDNA cannot be used for ethnicity estimates, but can be used to find one's haplogroup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup), which is unevenly distributed geographically.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test#cite_note-:0-2) Direct-to-consumer DNA test companies have often labeled haplogroups by continent or ethnicity (e.g., an "African haplogroup" or a "Viking haplogroup"), but these labels may be speculative or misleading.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test

hrvat22
02-01-18, 20:51
Which historical record is that precisely?

The hundred times I said..!!

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

hrvat22
02-01-18, 21:04
I was talking about autosomal dna, not yDna. Ydna only accounts for about 2% of your total genetic make-up.

Once again, let me use an extreme example. The herders in some areas of the Cameroons almost all carry R1b. This is what they look like...
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Data/Cameroon_1.jpg

Y dna does not tell the whole story where individuals are concerned.

The fact that Croats may carry only 25% non "Slavic" y dna doesn't mean they are 75% "Slavic", or, said, another way, that they are only 25% non-Slavic.

It doesn't work that way.

Perhaps if you read this you'll understand it better...

"There are three major types of genealogical DNA tests: Autosomal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosome) and X-DNA, Y-DNA and mtDNA.


Autosomal tests look at chromosomes 1–22 and X. The autosomes (chromosomes 1–22) are inherited from both parents and all recent ancestors. The X-chromosome follows a special inheritance pattern. Ethnicity estimates are often included with this sort of testing.
Y-DNA looks at the Y-chromosome, which is inherited father to son, and so can only be taken by males to explore their direct paternal line.
mtDNA looks at the mitochondria, which is inherited from mother to child and so can be used to explore one's direct maternal line.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test#cite_note-1)

Y-DNA and mtDNA cannot be used for ethnicity estimates, but can be used to find one's haplogroup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup), which is unevenly distributed geographically.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test#cite_note-:0-2) Direct-to-consumer DNA test companies have often labeled haplogroups by continent or ethnicity (e.g., an "African haplogroup" or a "Viking haplogroup"), but these labels may be speculative or misleading.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test

Let's say that Croats come from White Croatia and all the way to Turkish times have northern autosomal genetics, then come Vlachs and bring Balkan, African autosomal genetics. Which conclusions we can conclude ?, whether the Croats came from White Croatia or Africa, Greece, Albania etc.

I'm interested in migration and confirmation of historical records, this autosomal genetics does not determine.

Angela
02-01-18, 21:16
Now the Vlachs brought AFRICAN autosomal genetics to Croatia? Where do you find African autosomal genetics in the Balkans?

There were so many Vlachs migrating into Croatia that they now account for 50% of the autosomal inheritance of Croatians?

Croatia was absolutely empty until the Slavs migrated into the area in the early Medieval period? Where do you get that?

"Remnants of several Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) and Chalcolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) cultures were found in all regions of the country.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-2) The largest proportion of the sites is in the northern Croatia river valleys, and the most significant cultures whose presence was discovered include Starčevo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture), Vučedol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture) and Baden cultures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden_culture).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-4) The Iron Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) left traces of the early Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) Hallstatt culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) and the Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture).[5]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-5)Much later, the region was settled by Liburnians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians) and Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), while the first Greek colonies were established on the Vis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_(island)) and Hvar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvar)islands.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-6)"

Sound familiar?

Were you taught they were all exterminated?

The genetics say otherwise.

Shetop
02-01-18, 21:33
The hundred times I said..!!https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia
What I see here is you were writing about White Croatia. But in your previous post you wrote:


Only tribe whom genetics confirmed historical record and migration to Balkans are Croats, the rest is logic (language, etc..).

White Croatia is one thing and migration from White Croatia is another thing. So I have to ask again - which is the historical record which contains information about migration of Croats to the Balkans?

hrvat22
02-01-18, 21:43
Now the Vlachs brought AFRICAN autosomal genetics to Croatia? Where do you find African autosomal genetics in the Balkans?

There were so many Vlachs migrating into Croatia that they now account for 50% of the autosomal inheritance of Croatians?

Croatia was absolutely empty until the Slavs migrated into the area in the early Medieval period? Where do you get that?

"Remnants of several Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) and Chalcolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) cultures were found in all regions of the country.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-2) The largest proportion of the sites is in the northern Croatia river valleys, and the most significant cultures whose presence was discovered include Starčevo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture), Vučedol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture) and Baden cultures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden_culture).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-4) The Iron Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) left traces of the early Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians)Hallstatt culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) and the Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts)La Tène culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_T%C3%A8ne_culture).[5]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-5)Much later, the region was settled by Liburnians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians) and Illyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), while the first Greek colonies were established on the Vis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_(island)) and Hvar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvar)islands.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Croatia#cite_note-6)"

Sound familiar?

Were you taught they were all exterminated?

The genetics say otherwise.

It does not matter whether it is African or Greek, when people with E1b types come to the Balkans they probably come from Africa, autosomal genetics detected this and relatives from Africa, that's what I'm thinking. If E1b does not come from Africa to Balkans I'm wrong.


There were so many Vlachs migrating into Croatia that they now account for 50% of the autosomal inheritance of Croatians?

Male descendants who have nothing to do with migration of Croats to Croatia(6,7 century) have about 25% today Croatian population. For mitochondrial DNA I do not know.

Since autosomal genetics can not confirm or dispute migration of peoples, I do not follow the same, sorry.

Angela
02-01-18, 21:46
That's it. Done.

I have news for you. We all are the descendants of people who came out of Africa.

E-V13 carriers are no more "African" than I2a carriers. In fact, "E" probably formed "Out of Africa", and then returned, but see you wouldn't know that because you're afraid to study genetics for fear it will disturb your conditioning.

If you have no interest in science and genetics as a branch of science I have no idea what you're doing here.

hrvat22
02-01-18, 21:48
What I see here is you were writing about White Croatia. But in your previous post you wrote:



White Croatia is one thing and migration from White Croatia is another thing. So I have to ask again - which is the historical record which contains information about migration of Croats to the Balkans?

All proofs of White Croat migration to Croatia and wider are on that link. First post.

davef
02-01-18, 22:24
Hrvatt22 having that y DNA doesn't mean you're African or from there. The r1b Cameroon Angela posted isn't from Ireland.

hrvat22
02-01-18, 22:33
That's it. Done.

I have news for you. We all are the descendants of people who came out of Africa.

E-V13 carriers are no more "African" than I2a carriers. In fact, "E" probably formed "Out of Africa", and then returned, but see you wouldn't know that because you're afraid to study genetics for fear it will disturb your conditioning.

If you have no interest in science and genetics as a branch of science I have no idea what you're doing here.

Autosomal genetics can not prove migration of tribe and can not confirm or deny historical records. Y haplotype can only do this, for that reason Y haplotype is essential for the history of a nations or tribes etc.

Y haplotype belongs to genetics. If we talk about history and genetics in this forum that's the only proof, at least in migration of peoples or tribes.

Angela
02-01-18, 22:53
Autosomal genetics can not prove migration of tribe and can not confirm or deny historical records. Y haplotype can only do this, for that reason Y haplotype is essential for the history of a nations or tribes etc.

Y haplotype belongs to genetics. If we talk about history and genetics in this forum that's the only proof, at least in migration of peoples or tribes.

That's absolutely incorrect. If X population has a certain autosomal make-up, and then after a change in technology, for example, as in ceramics or metallurgy, one way we can know that a migration of people caused the changes, and not just cultural diffusion, is that the autosomal make up has changed. Even if the y chromosome is damaged, and we can tell nothing from it, it would tell us that.

You are dismissing an entire and extremely important branch of population genetics because you don't want to know what it says about the ancestry of your people.

Anyone who is reading this exchange realizes that 1) you know very little about the history and archaeology of your own area; 2) you know very little about population genetics; 3) you are being dishonest and willfully blind.

Given all that, whom can you hope to convince?

I'm out. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Lenab
03-01-18, 00:22
Let's say that Croats come from White Croatia and all the way to Turkish times have northern autosomal genetics, then come Vlachs and bring Balkan, African autosomal genetics. Which conclusions we can conclude ?, whether the Croats came from White Croatia or Africa, Greece, Albania etc.

I'm interested in migration and confirmation of historical records, this autosomal genetics does not determine.


It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.

Litovoi
03-01-18, 01:45
The main difference between north Slavs and south Slavs is the percentage of I2a... unless the south Slavs got the I2a from Amazon.com (they have EVERYTHING) [emoji16], they have mixed with the people that lived in the Danube area already and were I2a... so I2a is not original Slavic but it did spread with the growing Slavic presence in the Balkans.
BTY, Vlachs are Daco-Romans and not just remnants of melting pot of Roman Empire... also Moldovan people are the same as Vlachs; language is the same as proof. Moldovan tend to have more percentage of I2a BECAUSE of the Dacian substrate (after Romans took over Dacia, there were free Dacians right where Present Moldova is now).
Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)
Very natural,clear,positive,and I definitely say ,extremely melodic, speech,it surely sounds like ours ,from Western Wallachia.
We have preserved our genes,there's little doubt about that,here's an autosomal genetic study that leaves not much of interpretation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/
EDIT
The sampled Romanian Aromanians were Frasherots.
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/44317&ved=0ahUKEwjg0LDo3brYAhWM66QKHWhvAlIQFggtMAE&usg=AOvVaw0fSmNuKqH-h2Q5jUsV7ps6
EDIT
I have met Aromanians,but nobody was more close to my folks than the Stojan brothers,my friends from the university, from FYROM Macedonia,they had that spark,initiative,if you know what I mean,but especially a more elaborated extensive behaviour.
EDIT
The Aromanians cluster linguistically with the Istro-Romanians and Northern Romanians(Transylvanians and Moldavians),but the Frasherots and some of the FYROMS share the epenthesys of i with a Wallachian-Megleno-Romanian group.
Of course,the main division is ,DacoR,IstroR-Aromanianian,MeglenoR.
EDIT
I2a within the Romanian-Vlach is clearly supported by some specific autosomes.

Lenab
03-01-18, 02:15
Very natural,clear,positive,and I definitely say ,extremely melodic, speech,it surely sounds like ours ,from Western Wallachia.
We have preserved our genes,there's little doubt about that,here's an autosomal genetic study that leaves not much of interpretation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/
I am wondering about the ratio of South Pontids in South Eastern Europe compared to Dinarics, general Slavs etc Dinarics are Megalithic anyway

hrvat22
03-01-18, 07:17
It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.

I do not have data for other haplotypes (R1a, I1) so I'm just talking about main Croatian haplotype I2a for which I have some data, for E1b, J2b and R1b types I suppose to come from east of the Balkans because the branches which Croats have exist there (Vlachs, Albania possible Bulgaria, Greece), the only thing is possible that part of R1b types in Croatia are western branches.


As far as origin is concerned, I have said that in my opinion, looking at genetic and historical records to Roman Dalmatia only and exclusively came Croats which later divide and become these or that, I proved this on the subject
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia and to this day no one refute me with historical data and genetics.

As regards hair, eyes color etc. it has nothing to do with the Y haplotype.

Litovoi
03-01-18, 09:57
I am wondering about the ratio of South Pontids in South Eastern Europe compared to Dinarics, general Slavs etc Dinarics are Megalithic anyway
There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland, Turkey or even Bulgaria.
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#/media/File%3AOttoman_Empire_(1609).png
Since the Romanians were part of the Bulgarian state,there is a Slavic influence on them ,nevertheless, the more consistently Slavic-looking persons seem clearly more Dinaric- influenced than vice-versa(the number of the 'unmixed' Dinarics is larger).
If you sample from a very small region,there would be some particularities,for instance,Bucharest is somehow different from the rest of Wallachia,since in the late 18th c. some Bulgarians were settled there,the Dristor neighbourhood was initially one of their villages,we can ad Branesti,nevertheless, the people from the Capitala remain Wallachian Vlascans at their finest.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19480027/

ziratul
03-01-18, 10:53
There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland or Turkey
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.


I2a1CTS10228(Bosnia) Is it Vlach?

23andme results: 84.7% Balkan, 11.7% Eastern Europe, 3.4% Broadly European
GeneCove results: 73% Eastern Mediterranean, 27% North-East Europe
Gedmatch Farmer vs Hunter Gatherer: 49.03% Med-Anatolian Farmer, 43.59% Baltic Hunter Gatherer, 5.17% ME Herder
GenePlaza K29: 24.6% Eastern Slavic, 6.5% South Slavic, 27.1% Greek, 2.8% Sicilian, 29.8% Celtic
GenePlaza Ancestry: 66.4% East Mediterranean, 25.9% North Slavic
DNA.LAND: 83% Balkan, 16% North Slavic, 1% Ambiguous
WeGene: 58,63% Hungarian?, 39,71% Balkan

Yetos
03-01-18, 11:04
It's better to look at several haplogroups in people's general make up not just one. There are varying haplogroups according to general areas because one haplogroup marks one common ancestor.

Croatia is what's known as Central Europe a ''stones throw'' away from Slovenia and Serbia, so naturally they could be both or either. Also blondism especially in the ''Balkans'' doesn't account to much, as Neolithic farmers were usually fairer skinned and lighter haired and eyed.

WHG were the darker ones, in fact.


Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??

MaxCRO
03-01-18, 12:09
Now the Vlachs brought AFRICAN autosomal genetics to Croatia? Where do you find African autosomal genetics in the Balkans?

There were so many Vlachs migrating into Croatia that they now account for 50% of the autosomal inheritance of Croatians?

50 precent ? Definitelly not, that is more realistic for Serbs or Romanians. Croats are more slavic than native autosomally, despite of significant authochtonous contribution, and likely some other minute admixtures.

Why was my comment deleted , is this civilised forum or north korea ?

Litovoi
03-01-18, 12:30
I2a1CTS10228(Bosnia) Is it Vlach?
23andme results: 84.7% Balkan, 11.7% Eastern Europe, 3.4% Broadly European
GeneCove results: 73% Eastern Mediterranean, 27% North-East Europe
Gedmatch Farmer vs Hunter Gatherer: 49.03% Med-Anatolian Farmer, 43.59% Baltic Hunter Gatherer, 5.17% ME Herder
GenePlaza K29: 24.6% Eastern Slavic, 6.5% South Slavic, 27.1% Greek, 2.8% Sicilian, 29.8% Celtic
GenePlaza Ancestry: 66.4% East Mediterranean, 25.9% North Slavic
DNA.LAND: 83% Balkan, 16% North Slavic, 1% Ambiguous
WeGene: 58,63% Hungarian?, 39,71% Balkan
Of course it is,since regions with very high frequencies,also score very high in the autochthonous autosomes from the Praefectura Illyricum.
Was it originally Vlach?
I believe so,but we must have more concrete evidence.
Many Bosnians as well cluster with the Romanians,since there were lots of links in the past between these regions.
The Romanians-Vlachs are the Latin speakers that once lived in the Eastern Illyricum ,mostly the Diocese of Dacia,and the former Dacia Traiana,while the Serbs,Bosnians and Croats have additionally inherited genes from Western Illyricum(Dalmatia and Pannonia),where there were people that probably spoke a language similar to Dalmatian.
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Ages were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.

ziratul
03-01-18, 13:33
Of course it is,since regions with very high frequencies,also score very high in the autochthonous autosomes from the Praefectura Illyricum.
Was it originally Vlach?
I believe so,but we must have more concrete evidence.
Many Bosnians as well cluster with the Romanians,since there were lots of links in the past between these regions.
The Romanians-Vlachs are the Latin speakers that once lived in the Eastern Illyricum ,mostly the Diocese of Dacia,and the former Dacia Traiana,while the Serbs,Bosnians and Croats have additionally inherited genes from Western Illyricum(Dalmatia and Pannonia),where there were people that probably spoke a language similar to Dalmatian.
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.

Iwould
like to see Romanian K29 GenePlaza, do you have one? or do you know who has those results?

Cheers.

Wonomyro
03-01-18, 15:21
Who were these Bosanci (Bosnians) in Bukovina?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanci,_Suceava

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanci,_Suceava)Bosnians got their name after a medieval region Bosnia (initialy a circle in the middle):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg

A region got its name after a river:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosna_(river)

Lenab
03-01-18, 15:36
I do not have data for other haplotypes (R1a, I1) so I'm just talking about main Croatian haplotype I2a for which I have some data, for E1b, J2b and R1b types I suppose to come from east of the Balkans because the branches which Croats have exist there (Vlachs, Albania possible Bulgaria, Greece), the only thing is possible that part of R1b types in Croatia are western branches.


As far as origin is concerned, I have said that in my opinion, looking at genetic and historical records to Roman Dalmatia only and exclusively came Croats which later divide and become these or that, I proved this on the subject and to this day no one refute me with historical data and genetics.

As regards hair, eyes color etc. it has nothing to do with the Y haplotype.
Yes all true you have rep for that

Lenab
03-01-18, 15:37
Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??
Yes Neolithic farmers were generally lighter than WHG

Wonomyro
03-01-18, 15:42
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type

That makes sense. So Romanians probably originate from romanized Moesinas and Dardanians who moved north rather then from Dacians. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum,_Macedonia,_ Dacia,_Moesia,_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg


Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.

Then, if the Vlachs from Serbia were "pushed westwards" to become Istro-Romanians wouldn't they also be of Daco-Romanian type? Istro-Romanians are not even a part of a Balkan Sprachbund:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

Other Vlachs and even some Slavs indeed are. Btw. what makes you think that the Romanian speaking Vlachs were originally I2a people?

Lenab
03-01-18, 16:08
There was a Serbian guy ,from the southeastern parts,who posted his results on K
twenty - something,he turned very close with the Romanians(along with Bosnians and Croatians),especially the Wallachians and Moldavians,and clearly not that close to Ukraine-Poland or Turkey
Coon,followed the general trend back them,the study was very biased towards the outer Carpathians(Wallachians and Moldavians),he gives as example the village Nereju Mare(Vrancea county),somewhere very close to SE Transylvania, actually,as the name shows,it comes from the Hungarian nyres,'a place with birch trees'.
Exaggerating the Pontid ratio in the Southern Carpathians,remains in the more conservative agenda of Germany,that still claims a more Ottoman influence ,actually Wallachia has fought the most against them,and,despite the position,became their latest vassals ,among the Romanian provinces,still, none of it became pashalik.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#/media/File%3AOttoman_Empire_(1609).png
Since the Romanians were part of the Bulgarian state,there is a Slavic influence on them ,nevertheless, the more consistently Slavic-looking persons seem clearly more Dinaric- influenced than vice-versa(the number of the 'unmixed' Dinarics is larger).
If you sample from a very small region,there would be some particularities,for instance,Bucharest is somehow different from the rest of Wallachia,since in the late 18th c. some Bulgarians were settled there,the Dristor neighbourhood was initially one of their villages,we can ad Branesti,nevertheless, the people from the Capitala remain Wallachian Vlascans at their finest.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19480027/

Ok cool but I wanted data on the ratio of South Pontids if anyone has it I know they exist i have already seen Bachus (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54831-Bachus) print out some examples

alexfritz
03-01-18, 16:55
Sory?
Neolithic fairer skin and lighter hair??

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/29/pigmentation-of-neolithic-europeans/
a subset apparently was

Lenab
03-01-18, 16:56
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/29/pigmentation-of-neolithic-europeans/
a sub set apparently was
Thank you a Slovenian terrorist is now messaging me in private about it

alexfritz
03-01-18, 17:01
Thank you a Slovenian terrorist is now messaging me in private about it

? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess

davef
03-01-18, 17:02
? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess
Your reaction was my reaction :confused2:...

AdeoF
03-01-18, 17:03
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/29/pigmentation-of-neolithic-europeans/
a subset apparently was

Hmm interesting and yes there was all different kind of hair and eye colour around that time and it has not changed much to the present day.

AdeoF
03-01-18, 17:04
Your reaction was my reaction :confused2:...

That was the first reaction then that reaction now my reaction

Lenab
03-01-18, 17:07
? ? ?
send my regards ... i guess
The user named srdceleva (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51419-srdceleva) a Slovenian says that Neolithic farmers are like Ashkenazi Jews and Middle Easterners along with Greeks and Sicilians. Greeks Macedonians and Montenegrin is apart of the Balkans last time I checked

He also said that a half Serbian half English would plot in Austria he is delusional maybe you could message him for me as my private messaging service doesn't work

Slovakian whatever

davef
03-01-18, 17:21
I swear to every god, goddess and all the other dudes with super magical powers, this has got to be one of the most comical threads I have ever, ever seen

Lenab
03-01-18, 17:25
I swear to every god, goddess and all the other dudes with super magical powers, this has got to be one of the most comical threads I have ever, ever seen
The only thing that's comical is that my private messages have now been blocked. alexfritz (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/55336-alexfritz)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-online.png Do you think Italians even Southern should deal with that crap?

alexfritz
03-01-18, 17:32
The only thing that's comical is that my private messages have now been blocked. alexfritz (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/55336-alexfritz)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-online.png Do you think Italians even Southern should deal with that crap?

to be honest, the way i understand it is that there truly is a strong continuity between neolithic farmers (anatolia_n) and modern people of the mediterranean region incl greeks, jews, italians etc.; yet more so retained in modern south europeans (specially sards) than in modern anatolians/levantines as omrak et al explained there were more/further population movements/changes within that region thus altering the genome as can be seen in lazaridis et al already in bronze age 2800-1800bc anatolia_ba; cassidy et al affinity(allele sharing) heat-map of neolithic-farmers and modern day pops

https://i.imgur.com/1DkA0dl.png

AdeoF
03-01-18, 17:46
I swear to every god, goddess and all the other dudes with super magical powers, this has got to be one of the most comical threads I have ever, ever seen
Anything to do with the Balkans is comical because on how everyone reacts to it!!

Lenab
03-01-18, 17:50
Anything to do with the Balkans is comical because on how everyone reacts to it!!
It's the same as people calling Spanish ''Moors'' that type of language isn't usually tolerated with Spanish, especially the more Far Right type if you catch my drift

AdeoF
03-01-18, 17:58
It's the same as people calling Spanish ''Moors'' that type of language isn't usually tolerated with Spanish, especially the more Far Right type if you catch my drift

Yeah I know but hey every/most ethnics don't like to be called something that doesn't mean anything to them like the moors you said. Meh just ignore it and move on. A lot of people need to do that sometimes!

Angela
03-01-18, 18:25
Lenab, consider yourself warned.

hrvat22
03-01-18, 19:32
Of course it is,since regions with very high frequencies,also score very high in the autochthonous autosomes from the Praefectura Illyricum.
Was it originally Vlach?
I believe so,but we must have more concrete evidence.
Many Bosnians as well cluster with the Romanians,since there were lots of links in the past between these regions.
The Romanians-Vlachs are the Latin speakers that once lived in the Eastern Illyricum ,mostly the Diocese of Dacia,and the former Dacia Traiana,while the Serbs,Bosnians and Croats have additionally inherited genes from Western Illyricum(Dalmatia and Pannonia),where there were people that probably spoke a language similar to Dalmatian.
Linguistics have proved that the Vlachs from Serbia during the Medieval Age were of Daco-Romanian type,these,along with their closest relatives ,the Istro-Romanians ,have pushed westwards,reaching Croatia,via Bosnia.


Prove your claim with genetic data about migration of I2a1CTS10228 from Romania to Bosnia.

For now, from his haplotype it is evident that he has an male ancestor(I2a1CTS10228) in White Croatia, that's the only thing we know for now, if you have other information show me.

As far as autosomal data is concerned apparently his distant ancestor in the male line after arrival to the Balkans (probably south eastern part) was mixed with Vlachs, Albanian, Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks..? and this is now evident, very likely with Vlachs groups coming to Bosnia.

However, there is still mutation or ancestor with a source in White Croatia.

From where it comes to Bosnia, when and with whom his male ancestor mixed we will see in the future.

hrvat22
03-01-18, 20:44
I2 from Poland and Ukraine happened to be there cause Balkan Illyrians went there. Illyrians were much more numerous than today.


For now that migration or connection genetics (Y haplotype) does not prove. If you have genetic evidence that proves migration of I2a peoples from Balkans to White Croatia prove it, until then it is not true.



Albanian claim on Illyrian heritage is ... laughable at least.. they are Greeks from Sicily who are rejected by their own people.

You have Y haplotype and history records and prove this, until then it's a fairy tale.

Dumidre
04-01-18, 00:48
Prove your claim with genetic data about migration of I2a1CTS10228 from Romania to Bosnia.

For now, from his haplotype it is evident that he has an male ancestor(I2a1CTS10228) in White Croatia, that's the only thing we know for now, if you have other information show me.

As far as autosomal data is concerned apparently his distant ancestor in the male line after arrival to the Balkans (probably south eastern part) was mixed with Vlachs, Albanian, Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks..? and this is now evident, very likely with Vlachs groups coming to Bosnia.

However, there is still mutation or ancestor with a source in White Croatia.

From where it comes to Bosnia, when and with whom his male ancestor mixed we will see in the future.

CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old, so it is very possible that existed in Romanian territory (Dacian back then), and Bosnian territory (Dalmatian back then) in the same time because of the inter mixing between Dacians, Illyrians and Thracians. The same could be the interaction between Dacians and White Croatians (they weren’t called like that back then) that made possible for another mutation: I-Y3548 (age: 1458 ybp) that could be connected with White Croatia.


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Dumidre
04-01-18, 01:59
CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old, and probably existed throughout a vast area because of Dacians/ Thracians. Dacian tribes were pushed probably even more to the Nord because of the expansion of the Roman Empire (after the fall of Decebalus, the Dacian King). I-Y3548 (age: 1458ybp) could be attributed to the White Croatians. Was the I-Y3548 mutation later on possible, because of the earlier movement of the Dacian Tribes to the North? Maybe... unfortunately we can only assume or presume... no scientific evidence yet...

Litovoi
04-01-18, 12:13
That makes sense. So Romanians probably originate from romanized Moesinas and Dardanians who moved north rather then from Dacians. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum,_Macedonia,_ Dacia,_Moesia,_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg

The Roman Balkans was not a very urbanized region,according to Tibor Zivkovic about 10% of Moesia Prima's population lived in the cities,but it had certain important centers clustered on the Danube,such as Sirmium,Singidunum and Viminacium,plus Naissus,which was the node that connected Rome(through Adriatic) and Constantinople with this area.
OBVIOUSLY,some of those 90% have started very soon to let their marks,not only in these cities,but in the entire Roman world,we are talking of things like the Mala Kopasnica-Sase graves or the Danubian rider cult.
https://books.google.ro/books?id=pLJCCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=zivkovic+the+world+of+the+slavs+1:10&source=bl&ots=2ythx3Ss3H&sig=K77JFt96DgJ4NVD0KtlhaSsnr5M&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXi7ezjb7YAhULmrQKHRZTCpEQ6AEIQDAF#v=on epage&q=zivkovic%20the%20world%20of%20the%20slavs%201%3A 10&f=false
http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=03531589&AN=119163735&h=8OuNo%2b1QXpJpiOjVZ44rD%2b7K%2bHlkzsETyUgeb%2bIu zqp2FIXDudQMd2SETz8sN1OnBdaINPqUvX6aU1X6uuWIJw%3d% 3d&crl=c&resultNs=AdminWebAuth&resultLocal=ErrCrlNotAuth&crlhashurl=login.aspx%3fdirect%3dtrue%26profile%3d ehost%26scope%3dsite%26authtype%3dcrawler%26jrnl%3 d03531589%26AN%3d119163735
EDIT
Not only that the dispersion of the Roman towns in the Balkans is uneven,but the Vlachs are later recorded EXACTLY near them ,see the Crusaders Chronicle from 1189, where we have vicus Ravana,today's Cuprija on Morava,Medieval Ravno,Roman Horreum Margi,and vicus Nifa,Nis,not to mention Kekaumenos,"Vlachs...who once lived along the Danube and Sava".
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.zajednicavlahasrbije.com/OD%2520LATINSKOG%2520DO%2520RUMUNSKOG.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjb09Hf1b7YAhXJKlAKHS9-BFkQFggpMAI&usg=AOvVaw0LmscTHG_8ZAlAfURfLSQ6
Another connection that can be made,the proximity between Justiniana Prima-Lebane and the Vlach bishopric from 1020,Vreanoti,today's Vranje.

http://docplayer.net/54282834-Aleksandar-loma-two-serbian-place-names-ending-in-is-of-romanian-origin-mris-and-desiska.html

Litovoi
04-01-18, 12:51
https://books.google.ro/books?id=6L1vtSHSbrAC&pg=PA786&lpg=PA786&dq=danubian+rider&source=bl&ots=o5M2ObRzfb&sig=wTpyLMFy12fveZCOf06QYBjkFNk&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOoqL9k77YAhVEKlAKHXdKB78Q6AEIazAS#v=on epage&q=danubian%20rider&f=false

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://viminacium.org.rs/wp-content/uploads/files/pdf/Snezana%2520Golubovic%2520-%2520Thracian%2520World.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjerKjtnr7YAhVBLFAKHbn1AGIQFggmMAA&usg=AOvVaw0qxDRN_sls5jkPIVf5M-t_

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=933s&v=6-XVH8a5ftY

Litovoi
04-01-18, 13:12
These articles prove the very strong relations between Moesia and Dacia Traiana.
It is not that surprising,since you could have passed into Trajan's Dacia only from Moesia Superior.
http://historymaps.ro/wp-content/uploads/Harti_ftp/octombrie/istorice/Dacia_Romanab.png

Dibran
04-01-18, 14:58
I2 from Poland and Ukraine happened to be there cause Balkan Illyrians went there. Illyrians were much more numerous than today.

Albanian claim on Illyrian heritage is ... laughable at least.. they are Greeks from Sicily who are rejected by their own people.

L621 under I2-Din to which the majority of Balkan I2 is derived, is a VERY YOUNG branch, that is descended from a Medieval Pole.

Albanians on the other hand have a preponderance of native Neolithic Lineages(regardless of what classical peoples it belonged to.

Garrick
04-01-18, 17:18
CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old, and probably existed throughout a vast area because of Dacians/ Thracians. Dacian tribes were pushed probably even more to the Nord because of the expansion of the Roman Empire (after the fall of Decebalus, the Dacian King). I-Y3548 (age: 1458ybp) could be attributed to the White Croatians. Was the I-Y3548 mutation later on possible, because of the earlier movement of the Dacian Tribes to the North? Maybe... unfortunately we can only assume or presume... no scientific evidence yet...

A lot of people want that I-CTS10228 carriers are Thracian origin, but in reality this assumption cannot be supported.

About 1000 BC and earlier I-CTS10228 carriers were in the north of Europe, most probably in the Baltic region of today's Germany, it is time before than they arrived in upper Vistula region and surrounding.

They were Mesolithic survivors, whose ancestors long time ago were much more widespread in Europe, but unfortunately they had bottleneck.

Irony of destiny, it is possible R1a tribes pushed them to the south, it means in that time they were antagonists.

Gubin culture of Jastorf group probably were culture of these people, I1 carriers had influx and probably Germanic language is result of these impact.

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

So, I-CTS10228 carriers were not Thracian, Illyiran, Slavic, Iranian Croat etc.

I-CTS10228 carriers were European Mesolithic survivors and they became Germanized due to impact of I1 carriers.

Bastarnae were the most likely bearers these genetics (and maybe to a lesser extent Scirii), only later when they moved from the Vistula river to the east they came in contact and mixed with Dacians/Thracins (they first entered in Balkans 179 BC) and Sarmatians, and centuries after that, after Zarubintsy culture, their descendants participated in Kiev culture and ethnogenesis of Slavs.

Wonomyro
04-01-18, 18:15
And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

"Original" Croats were Slavs. Their personal names, language and religion was Slavic since they were first time mentioned in the sources. The places called after Croatian etnhnonym were found in the areas where the historical sources mention Slavs or where the first slavic states emerged, Serbia included.

Croatian ethnonym itself is, however, most probably of Iranian origin, but the slavic word for "god" is as well. All that strongly support the Slavic origin of Croats (or vice versa, who knows). The proposed area of the Croatian origin fits pretty well with the area of highest diversity of the I-CTS10228 subclade, as well as with the area of the earliest Slavic toponymy. Present day Croats are descendants of these Croats and autochtonous population of Panonia and Dalmatia who were a minority at the time of Croatian arrival.

Bachus
08-01-18, 08:42
"Original" Croats were Slavs. Their personal names, language and religion was Slavic since they were first time mentioned in the sources. The places called after Croatian etnhnonym were found in the areas where the historical sources mention Slavs or where the first slavic states emerged, Serbia included.

Croatian ethnonym itself is, however, most probably of Iranian origin, but the slavic word for "god" is as well. All that strongly support the Slavic origin of Croats (or vice versa, who knows). The proposed area of the Croatian origin fits pretty well with the area of highest diversity of the I-CTS10228 subclade, as well as with the area of the earliest Slavic toponymy. Present day Croats are descendants of these Croats and autochtonous population of Panonia and Dalmatia who were a minority at the time of Croatian arrival.

Names of Croatian leaders from VII century were Kluk, Muhol, Kosen, Lovel, Tuga and Vuga and that names are not Slavic.

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 11:29
Names of Croatian leaders from VII century were Kluk, Muhol, Kosen, Lovel, Tuga and Vuga and that names are not Slavic.

These were the names of legendary characters, not of the real leaders. The names of the leaders (historicly proven) were Slavic, with some germanic influence.

Don't misinterpret the sources. That will bring you nowhere.

Bachus
08-01-18, 11:42
These were the names of legendary characters, not of the real leaders. The names of the leaders (historicly proven) were Slavic, with some germanic influence.

Don't misinterpret the sources. That will bring you nowhere.

Why Croatian legendary characters have weird non-slavic names?

Maby names such as Kluk, Muhol, Lovel and Kosen exist in Iran. :laughing:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory


https://youtu.be/d36HxKDJ1i8

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 11:55
Why Croatian legendary characters have weird non-slavic names?

Maby names such as Kluk, Muhol, Lovel and Kosen exist in Iran. :laughing:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory


Maybe yes, maybe not.

If you don't understand how Slavs could have legends with "foreign names" in them, try to explain yourself why Christian Serbs today have names of Jewish origin.

Bachus
08-01-18, 12:04
You don't even understand that "Iranian" in linguistic sense does not mean "from Iran".

If you don't understand how Slavs could have legends with "foreign names" in them, try to explain yourself why Christian Serbs today have names of Jewish origin.

All Christians have "Jewish" or biblical names, that is normal because of religion.

But why Croats from VII century have non-slavic names?
Kluk, Muhol, Kosen and Lovel are maybe Iranic and maybe Turkic, these names are not Slavic without any doubt.

Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 13:23
All Christians have "Jewish" or biblical names, that is normal because of religion.

Use the same logic here.


But why Croats from VII century have non-slavic names?
Kluk, Muhol, Kosen and Lovel are maybe Iranic and maybe Turkic, these names are not Slavic without any doubt.

The names are of unknown origin. That could be place names as well. Many peoples had similar legends.


Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.

These are the speculations.

Nobody knows what "Proto-Croatians" were or were not. We know that the first Croats confirmed in history in 9th century and had Slavic names, spoke Slavic language, called "Slavs" by others, and had the Slavic Perun cult.

The hill called Perun is still there, above the former seat of the Croatian kings. In the past there were more of such names: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun_(brdo)

hrvat22
08-01-18, 13:28
All Christians have "Jewish" or biblical names, that is normal because of religion.

But why Croats from VII century have non-slavic names?
Kluk, Muhol, Kosen and Lovel are maybe Iranic and maybe Turkic, these names are not Slavic without any doubt.

Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.

The I2a that Croats have is not originaly Indo-European origin and that may be just a proof for that. For Kluk, Muhol, Kosen and Lovel we do not know the origin of that names.


However, this verse is similar to the one in Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga_ok_Hei%C3%B0reks) (13th century), where prior the battle between Goths and Huns,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga_ok_Hei%C3%B0reks


King had twelve sons. The eldest was Angantyr, then Hervarth, then Hjörvarth,

http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/HERVARARKERSHAW.html

Then maybe and the Goths are Iranians, therefore genetics is clearly said that Croats have nothing to do with Iranians, for ethnonym Croat we will see in the future from where, with whom and when it comes to Azov and then we will bring some conclusion.

Bachus
08-01-18, 13:38
The I2a that Croats have is not originaly Indo-European origin and that may be just a proof for that. For Kluk, Muhol, Kosen and Lovel we do not know the origin of that names.

Yes, we don't know origin of that names, but they are not Slavic neither Germanic for sure.

Bachus
08-01-18, 13:46
Then maybe and the Goths are Iranians, therefore genetics is clearly said that Croats have nothing to do with Iranians, for ethnonym Croat we will see in the future from where, with whom and when it comes to Azov and then we will bring some conclusion.

Who were Croats which are mentioned near Azov it's not clear, but one thing is slear, that Coats from Azov were not same people as Croats from early middle age.

Croats from early middle age were Slavs which adopted Croatian name from non-Slavic Croars.
Non-Slavic proto-Croats probably were small military elite which were conquest some Slavic tribes and that Slavic tribes adopted Croatian name.

Real non-Slavic Croats (proto-Croats) were not I2a-Din and R1a-M458/Z280 without any doubt, they probably have some non-European haplogroups.

hrvat22
08-01-18, 13:52
Who were Croats which are mentioned near Azov it's not clear, but one thing is slear, that Coats from Azov were not same people as Croats from early middle age.

Croats from early middle age were Slavs which adopted Croatian name from non-Slavic Croars.
Non-Slavic proto-Croats probably were small military elite which were conquest some Slavic tribes and that Slavic tribes adopted Croatian name.

Real non-Slavic Croats (proto-Croats) were not I2a-Din and R1a-M458/Z280 without any doubt, they probably have some non-European haplogroups.

It is possible that Croats in the seventh century came from Africa to Croatia, therefore you have no historical and genetic data to confirm your claims or to translate you talk fairytales without proof.

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 13:57
@Bachus,

Here is the text from DAI:


Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga

You dropped the most important name: Chrobatos.

The Lusatian Sorbs have a legend about a wizzard called Krabat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krabat

Maybe Lusatian Sorbs have the "Iranian or Turkic" origin too? What do you think?

Bachus
08-01-18, 14:09
It is possible that Croats in the seventh century came from Africa to Croatia, therefore you have no historical and genetic data to confirm your claims or to translate you talk fairytales without proof.

Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohondrijska_DNK_Hrvatica#Haplogrupe_J_i_T

Bachus
08-01-18, 14:15
@ Wonomyro

Krabat is not related with Croatians, of course that Lusatian Serbs don't have Turkic or Iranic origin.

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 14:30
Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohondrijska_DNK_Hrvatica#Haplogrupe_J_i_T

Please, @Bachus, stop behave like an evil little gnome.

There are no "mongoloid" haplogroups. Do you think that you are going to "discredit" Croats with your racist prejudices?

The reputation of your "source" is trash. Don't provoke me to call moderator.

Anyway, how could one of many populated Croatian islands explain origin of Croats as a whole?

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 14:32
@ Wonomyro

Krabat is not related with Croatians, of course that Lusatian Serbs don't have Turkic or Iranic origin.

Krabat is typical germanized archaic form of Croatian ethnonym.

hrvat22
08-01-18, 14:37
Traces of non-Slavic proto-Croatians are probably high percentage of mongoloid haplogroup Q in the islands Korčula and Hvar.
In Korčula and Hvar exist also Asiatic mt DNA.


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomi_neslavenskih_Hrvata


hr.metapedia.org/wiki/Mitohondrijska_DNK_Hrvatica#Haplogrupe_J_i_T

No, Croats come from White Croatia.

Until today it is not denied with historical record and genetics and this is the only truth for the time being. Sorry.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia



De administrando imperio..From the Croats who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian),


It encompassed the northern part of present-day Albania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), much of Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), Bosnia and Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina), Montenegro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro), Kosovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo) and Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), thus covering an area significantly larger than the current Croatian region of Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(Roman_province)


The province comprised Illyria/Dalmatia and Pannonia. Illyria included the area along the east coast of the Adriatic Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Sea) and its inland mountains. With the creation of this province it came to be called Dalmatia. It was in the south, while Pannonia was in the north. Illyria/Dalmatia stretched from the River Drin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drin_(river)) (in modern northern Albania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania)) to Istria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria) (Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia)) and the River Sava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sava) in the north. The area roughly corresponded to modern northern Albania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania), Montenegro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro), Bosnia and Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) and coastal Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyricum_(Roman_province)


Pannonia was an ancient (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province) of the Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) bounded north and east by the Danube (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube), coterminous westward with Noricum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum) and upper Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Italy), and southward with Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(Roman_province)) and upper Moesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesia). Pannonia was located over the territory of the present-day western Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), eastern Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), northern Croatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia), north-western Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), northern Slovenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia), western Slovakia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia) and northern Bosnia and Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia

What the island of Hvar and Korcula have with Illyricum, Roman Dalmatia and Panonia.?

Bachus
08-01-18, 14:40
No, Croats come from White Croatia.

Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

hrvat22
08-01-18, 14:50
Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

Croatian E1b types comes from Albania, but Croats did not come from Albania they came from White Croatia. Do you understand now?

Wonomyro
08-01-18, 14:52
Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

In every forum I've stumbled upon, there is always a group of Serbs who never miss to mention haplogroup Q on Hvar island suggesting that Croats are of Avaric, Turkic, Mongol of whatever exotic origin, but not Slavic.

Even a person with a lower then average IQ can realize how rediculous that claims are, but they just don't give up...

Is that something in the water or...?

hrvat22
08-01-18, 15:18
Anyway, how could one of many populated Croatian islands explain origin of Croats as a whole?

In the twilight zone, everything is possible.

Bachus
08-01-18, 15:36
Croatian E1b types comes from Albania, but Croats did not come from Albania they came from White Croatia. Do you understand now?

What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

hrvat22
08-01-18, 15:53
What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

Perhaps they came to sunny islands on vacation before 20,000 years, genetics will in the future tell about migration of these people and then we will bring conclusion, for now we still know nothing. Perhaps it is a branch from Poland as there exist some Q haplotypes.

Regarding E1b same thing, genetic will say about migration of every branch E1b and then we will bring conclusion, considering that history records mention arrival of Vlachs to Croatia and that there are similarities between Croatian and Albanian types E1b we can assume that they come from direction of Albania, in any case the genetic will say what is true.

Dumidre
09-01-18, 19:51
A lot of people want that I-CTS10228 carriers are Thracian origin, but in reality this assumption cannot be supported.

About 1000 BC and earlier I-CTS10228 carriers were in the north of Europe, most probably in the Baltic region of today's Germany, it is time before than they arrived in upper Vistula region and surrounding.

They were Mesolithic survivors, whose ancestors long time ago were much more widespread in Europe, but unfortunately they had bottleneck.

Irony of destiny, it is possible R1a tribes pushed them to the south, it means in that time they were antagonists.

Gubin culture of Jastorf group probably were culture of these people, I1 carriers had influx and probably Germanic language is result of these impact.

And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.

So, I-CTS10228 carriers were not Thracian, Illyiran, Slavic, Iranian Croat etc.

I-CTS10228 carriers were European Mesolithic survivors and they became Germanized due to impact of I1 carriers.

Bastarnae were the most likely bearers these genetics (and maybe to a lesser extent Scirii), only later when they moved from the Vistula river to the east they came in contact and mixed with Dacians/Thracins (they first entered in Balkans 179 BC) and Sarmatians, and centuries after that, after Zarubintsy culture, their descendants participated in Kiev culture and ethnogenesis of Slavs.

I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

gyms
10-01-18, 08:59
I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?
Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)
No.How do You know that mutation CTS-4002 was carried by Dacian-Getae people?
Intuition ?

howyesno
05-02-18, 18:32
In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1


Thraco-Cimmerian is a historiographical and archaeological term, composed of the names of the Thracians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) and the Cimmerians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians). It refers to 8th to 7th century BC cultures that are linked in Eastern Central Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) and in the area west of the Black Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds

gyms
02-03-18, 09:18
In my opinion I2a Din comes from Cimmerians... name Cimmerians is thought to origin from Gomer and are thus related to other proto-Germans I2a2 and I1


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

After being pushed from Black sea shores by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion ..unlike to G2a Sarmatians) they partly migrated into lands of Thracians and Veneti (closely related satem speaking people...Thracians being closer in language to proto-Balts and Veneti being proto-Slavs)...
they mixed thus in both pre-Slavic Balkan tribes (Thracians) and into proto-Slavic (Veneti)..

expansion happened 2800 ybp from area north of Black sea... part of Cimmerians also crossed over Caucasus and went to Asia minor and probably are nowadays merged into Kurds

"Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Miroslav
14-04-18, 12:55
CTS10228 is at least 2000 years old... I-Y3548 (age: 1458ybp)...

Wrong: I-CTS10228 was formed circa 5200 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 3800 YBP

Wrong: I-Y3548/S17250 was formed circa 2300 YBP, while had TMRCA circa 1850 YBP


And Croats are far from these areas, Croatian scientists highlight that Croat is Iranian name and original Croats were Iranian, some other scientists claim some other origin (Turkish, Bulgarian etc.) but it doesn't matter areas of original Croats are very very far from areas where I-CTS10228 lived and moved.


Proto-Croatians were not Slavs, they were of Iranic or Turkic origin, word Croat is not of Slavic origin and many Croatian historians say that.


Shouldn't such posts get infractions? Firstly they lie White Croats did not live in the parts where was I-CTS10228 and claim were not Slavs, then they intentionally misinterpret theories of the Croatian ethnonym with Croatian ethnogenesis, as well mention Turkish, Bulgarian fringe theories. All in intentions to make an ethnic group less Slavic i.e. specific haplogroup less Croatian, and more Serbian. This is political propaganda.

Miroslav
14-04-18, 13:01
I think you are half right about the Bastarnae: they weren’t bearers of I-CTS10228, BUT they are the cause of the mutation of CTS4002 that was carried by Dacian-Getae people. If you look at the YDNA Tree of I-L621 that has CTS4002 as first mutation followed by CTS-10228 the following, and their TRMCA (combined with history that we know, and some intuition, of course), it kind of make sense, don’t you think?

No, it does not make any sense. How could they be the cause of the I-CTS4002 mutation when Bastarnae are reported to live between 200 BC-300 AD, while I-CTS4002 was formed 5500 YBP, had TMRCA 5200 YBP? Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that Bastarnae were "most likely bearers of these genetics".

MOESAN
14-04-18, 22:38
What about E1b in Austria, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Poland... whether E1b is this countries also came from Albania?

I understand origin of E1b in the Balkans, but I don't understand origin of Asiatic haplogroup Q in Hvar and Korčula. :thinking:

Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.

Mark
15-04-18, 19:16
An I2a1b carrying IE proto-slav speaker had great genetic success 1800-2000 years ago. I2a is native European to the Mesolithic but that does not mean the males who carried I2a1b to success were Mesolithic survivors. I believe it is highly likely they were a tribe lead by a man who found himself born amongst whatever of the various IE proto-slavs. He was probably an important leader with many sons. The TMRCA is too similar to equally successful R1a clades involved in the same epochs:


Czechs R1a belongs in majority to M458, with subclades such as L1029>YP1703 (TMRCA 1800 years), L260>YP256>YP654 (TMRCA 2200 years), L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905 (TMRCA 1850 years) and L260>YP1337 (TMRCA 1750 years). Other R1a clades found in the Czech Republic include Z280>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (TMRCA 2500 years) CTS1211>Y35>YP4278 (TMRCA 1850 years), some Z92 and Z93, as well as the Germanic L664 (S3479>S3485>S3477>YP942; TMRCA 1800 years). The age of these subclades concord with the historical Slavic expansion during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages.

hrvat22
13-05-18, 15:33
Some scholar would have proposed an Avar remnant pushed by Slavs in their advance - I found that in a blog citing < 10% Y-Q and mt-F in Hvar, but it did not give the scholar's name.

On the Serbian genetic portal or on some forum (I'm not sure) I read that Q in Hvar is not Avar branch, so probably Y-Q in Hvar has nothing to do with Avars.

HiveMindTerror
19-05-18, 05:34
I'm guessing we're a fairly pure Slavic tribe (Croats) because I2 seems to be more common in northern Slavs than people assume, not to mention the mentions of White Croats as part of the Antes confederation, as well as numerous other sources.

I believe the way it is written on this sites explanation of Haplogroup I2 makes sense, that I2 was a minority that grouped with R1a people to create the Proto-Slavs. The more southern of these Proto-Slav tribes probably carrying more I2a than the tribes further North. This explains why other Balkan people (Albanians and Greeks) are rather different genetically to Croats, Serbs and Bosnians. Even Slovenes are a bit different, and they supposedly descent from the Venedians, a different community of Slavs.

However the sheer amount of I2a still seems staggering, I mean what are the odds out of all the Slavs that the minority would be the conquerors of the Balkan peninsula? I feel that's what makes the Illyrian theory more favoured, because its simpler to think we were just always here. But again, I recall numerous sources that speak of the Balkans being heavily depopulated due to constant war and disease.

Garrick
26-05-18, 01:04
Mongoloid haplogroup Q in the Hvar and Korčula came from White Croatia, is not it? :thinking:

What you say is too simplified, Q1b we can see in Slavic world, among Poles, Ukrainians etc.

Source of this haplogroup were Gokturks, people who linked cultures in the wider areas from Far East to Europe.

Khazars, Avars and possible Bulgarians brought this haplogroup, you can see path.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Pontic_steppe_region_around_650_AD.png

In this moment we don't know how carriers of this haplogroup entered among Slavs, maybe they were Avars?, Khazars?, any tribe later Slavicized?, we can speculate but we don't know.

JajarBingan
24-08-18, 00:57
I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map-1024x706.jpg

hrvat22
26-08-18, 21:06
I'd wager that it came from the North and that the current peak in Bosnians has arisen due to their isolation in the mountains.

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map-1024x706.jpg

Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

JajarBingan
28-08-18, 20:16
Croats from Bosnia have the most I2a I-S17250, then follows Croats from Dalmatia, then Bosniaks, Serbians etc. This is if we follow official scientific papers.

Why Croats of Bosnia have most I2a I-S17250, this is because Croats as Catholics in Turkish time do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims and at that time no one goes to Catholicism but it was opposite so Croats at that time kept Croatian genetics that was there before arrival of the Turks and Vlachs to Bosnia. It's interesting to see 30% I2a in Bosnian Serbs which says that they are much more mixed with Orthodox Vlachs, Albanians, possible Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks(we'll see in the future).

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/22Kangars/BesenyoGeneticsEn.htm

I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
However if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)? But then it would seem like Slovenes and all of the previously mentioned people are closer to White Croats than Serbo-Croatians.
So, maybe Y4460 is an indicator for another tribe. As opposed to these 2, the remaining Z17855 looks to me like a pre-Slavic Balkan lineage. Maybe that's the speculated Thracian/Dacian remnant.

Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),



9-9.5% belongs to S17250
9-9.5% - Y4460
9-9.5% - Z17855


The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

S17250
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg

Y4460
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg

Z17855
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg

Vlad82
28-08-18, 21:16
I won't take any sides because I haven't read about I-S17250 and the link to White Croats.
But that could be a possibility, however if you were to look at the frequencies of Y4460 from below, doesn't it look like a more likely candidate considering its frequency in old White Croat territory (Ukraine -> Moldova -> Romania -> Hungary -> Slovenia)

Taking the Romanian example, out of a frequency of 28% for I2a-Din (L621),



9-9.5% belongs to S17250
9-9.5% - Y4460
9-9.5% - Z17855


The distribution is very even among the L621 subclades in Romania, which is consistent with it being at the crossroads geographically, but looking at Bosnia the overwhelming majority of the L621 population falls into S17250.

S17250
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-S17250-frequencypopulation-per-country-table-1024x597.jpg

Y4460
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinB-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x544.jpg

Z17855
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country-1024x522.jpg

Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.

JajarBingan
28-08-18, 21:30
Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.

Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.

hrvat22
28-08-18, 21:45
JajarBingan (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/51364-JajarBingan)

Mutation CTS10228 ancestor of S17250 also has source in White Croatia or that wider area.

If we follow current time from YFull tree https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ we see that subclade S17250 TMRCA is 1750 ybp, I-Y4460 TMRCA is 2100 ybp and Z17855 TMRCA is 1450 ybp.

In my opinion I-Y4460 (TMRCA 2100 ybp) leaving White Croatia before formation of subclade S17250 and probably migrate towards Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine etc. And because of this Croats do not have this subclade in significant percentage.


Regarding Z17855 subclade we see that same exists in small percentage in Croatia, there is a possibility that Z17855 coming to Croatia from direction of Romania, Bulgaria during the Turkish occupation. We will know exactly in the future. That Z17855 existed in White Croatia in the time of migration to Croatia then Croats also must have Z17855 subclade but that's not the case. Interestingly in Romania you have three branches of CTS10228 which indicates that first migrations went in direction of east Balkans while we in Croatia have mostly one branch.

An issue is that subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1450 ybp and it is approximately time of Croatian migration to Balkans, then why Croats do not have it? Maybe TMRCA will be corrected in the future because it changes from time to time.
That subclade Z17855 has TMRCA 1000 ybp then this mutation arose after Croatian migration from White Croatia and therefore Croatians today do not have it and this would be a logical conclusion.

Vlad82
28-08-18, 22:01
Hmm, interesting, I'll have to dig deeper.
Do you have any compendium on I2-Din in this region?

I'll get the panel from YSEQ soon btw, so I'll hopefully get a deeper look at subclade level. My current assignment is via livingdna.

I forgot to mention, there are about ten Dinaric North (DYS448=20) results from public projects with Romanian surnames without tested any subclade. This is not enough for a big country like Romania, but anyway would be great if some of them take additional tests.
I have an excel file with haplotypes from scientific researches and public projects (including Ysearch), I am not sure how much haplotypes probably several thousands. I have not put it on one worksheet, every country has a different sheet, but plan to marge tables soon to make easier for comparison and search.
Tables include the name of the scientific studies and regions, some haplotypes appear two times because it is used in more than one study but STR markers are extended in the second.
Here is statistic from scientific studies https://s15.postimg.cc/3pqaxv74b/image.jpg
I have to include some more studies and statistic from studies where haplotypes are not available but it is needed to make the picture complete.

Vlad82
28-08-18, 22:07
The picture is too big, I will try with different links
https://postimg.cc/image/4s0hgepxj/
https://s15.postimg.cc/3pqaxv74b/image.jpg
https://postimg.cc/image/4s0hgepxj/

https://s15.postimg.cc/4s0hgepxj/image.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4s0hgepxj/)

https://s15.postimg.cc/3pqaxv74b/image.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/4s0hgepxj/)

gidai
31-08-18, 20:48
(...) My current assignment is via livingdna.
Salut!
Can you say something about the autosomal result? Haplogroups represent very little of genetic inheritance...

dinamo82
16-09-18, 01:32
Well...Russia and Ukraine and some other Slavic countries are full of Dinaric South cluster (PH908)

Subclades:


DinA3a (A356) ~ 80% 7,6mln 150/450CE Common in Eastern Europe

DinA3a1 (A493) Bosnia, Croatia, Greece, Montenegro, Ukraine, Czech Rep., Germany, Poland

DinA3a1a (Y6651) Czech Clan
DinA3a1b (A8740) Germany, Poland



DinA3b (A5913) ~ 10% Croatia, Russia, Montenegro, Ukraine
DinA3c (PH3310) ~ 5% 150/150CE Serbia
DinA3d (A13912) ~ 5% Croatia, Hungary

Dibran
21-10-18, 16:22
Data at the charts are not precise, first of all, there are not many people I-CTS10228+ tested on the deeper subclades from Romania and Moldova; second, it is a big territory there might be regional differences: for example in anonymous researches in Western Wallachia (Olt, Dolj, Mehedinci) dominant subclade among CTS10228 is Dinaric South DYS448=19, which is also prevalent subclade of Western Bulgaria and East Serbia (so-called Shopluk) and also in Western Balkan. While in Calarasi region in Southeastern Wallachia majority of tested CTS10228 results are Dinaric North DYS448=20.
From public projects there are at least 7 Romanians with Romanian surnames tested as S17250>>PH908, one Dinaric North S17250, two people (including you) confirmed as S17250 without haplotypes, two people tested as S17250>>Z16971, plus 3 Dinaric North Y4460 and one Z17855.
The sample is not big, but very likely S17250 is a dominant subclade in Romania, it is also dominant subclade in general and make up approximately 60% of all CTS10228 and probably half of them are Dinaric South or PH908. Y4460 is the second common subclade with +40%.
While Z17855 probably takes about 5-6%, mostly appears in Balkan, especially in Central Bulgaria among speakers of the Central Balkan dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Balkan_dialect, Greek Macedonia, Western FYR Macedonia, South Serbia and Montenegro. In my opinion, it will be a dominant subclade of Albanian CTS10228, too. Z17855 is to some extent present among Hungarians east from Danube and North Carpathians, so the guy who calculated the distribution of subclades among Romanians probably mistakenly includes tested Hungarian from Transylvania or just make a wrong prediction. Also among East Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians) and Poles Z17855 almost non-existent, so graf is very likely wrong.
Z17855 is very interesting considering its focus in Romania, Albania, Macedonia and Bulgaria. It is very young compared to other branches, otherwise I would have hypothesized Free Dacians. More likely, it is a Proto-Slavic clade which had a founding among Vlachic tribes, hence its majority among the aforementioned peoples.

Sneki
30-10-18, 02:31
The subclade I-CTS10228-Y3120 is brought to the Balkans by Slavic tribes. Arguments:


TMRCA of 2300 years
The fact is that in Moscow percentage of men that have this haplogroup is about 10%, while in Rome it is less than 1%
Modern distribution is correlated with recorded Slavic expansion from first millenia CE.
Also, so called Greeko-Jewish clusters I-Y3120-Y18331* and I-Y3120-Y18331-A2512 most probably are of proto-slavic origin



​I will describe a model here, of what I think had happened. I-Y3120-Y18331* emerged in the eastern part of proto-slavs and went eastward. Maybe the Gothic expansion primarily affected the direction of migration. The problem was that those Slavs were in the wrong place at the very wrong time, so most of them ended up as slaves, with no progeny. But some of those Slavic tribes made an alliance with the Turkic people of Bulgars, and those Slavs took part in the making of Kubrat's Great Bulgaria in the seventh century, either as allies or mercenaries. Later on, when Great Bulgaria split apart, Asparuh and maybe Kuber migrated from the steppe to the Balkans with I-Y3120-Y18331 Slavs in their armies. Rest of those allied Slavs stayed in the north with other Kubrat's sons, eventually being assimilated into Khazar and Chuvash people. Khazar elite converted to Judaism, and when Svyatoslav Igorevich put an end on Khazarian state some of the Jews moved to the north-west, while the other Khazars took part in the Chuvash ethnogenesis east of the Volga.

To put it shortly: I think that cluster I-Y3120-Y18331 in the Balkans are descendants of Bulgaric army men from the seventh century.
Theory of the Bastarnae origin of Balkanic I-Y3120-Y18331 is stretchy. The timetable of their arrival is too narrow, while I-Y3120-Y18331 is very similar to the Slavic subclades in terms of TMRCA and formation ages, and it can not explain the Chuvash and the Jewish branch.

Ralphie Boy
17-12-18, 17:15
To put it shortly: I think that cluster I-Y3120-Y18331 in the Balkans are descendants of Bulgaric army men from the seventh century.
Theory of the Bastarnae origin of Balkanic I-Y3120-Y18331 is stretchy. The timetable of their arrival is too narrow, while I-Y3120-Y18331 is very similar to the Slavic subclades in terms of TMRCA and formation ages, and it can not explain the Chuvash and the Jewish branch.

The A10959 branches in which so far there are only Greeks and East European Jews split off from the parent branch A10959 an estimated 2,000 years ago, per YFull. Y66192 has the Greeks and downstream of Y23115 are the Jews. So it appears A10959 split before there were Slavic migrations to the Balkans. Plus, there are no modern Bulgarians yet in Y18331. Bulgarians are found in other CTS 10228 branches.

Evidence seems to point to a Y18331 homeland in the northern Black Sea region, but it is probably too early to say with any confidence. Maybe we need more samples.

Gash
29-12-18, 03:27
Every evidence points to Slavs.

gyms
29-12-18, 16:31
Every evidence points to Slavs.

Which evidence are you referring to? Please give me some examples.

Gash
02-01-19, 18:55
Which evidence are you referring to? Please give me some examples.

The TMCRA it has with North Slavs points it came from there within last 1500 years, more or less. If you check yfull.com.

This is also what Nordtvedts research showed years ago. They found it's ancestral clade in Poland.


Also how I2a1b was never found in any ancient Balkan remains points that it came later with Slavs.

In areas like Croatia where I2a1b is high today they rather found ancient remains of J2b2-L283, R1b L23 , Ev13 . Seems like I2a1b and Slavic R1a replaced these lineages in large parts.

They found I2a2 , G and other ydnas but that isn't the type common in South Slavs.

Since people here claim there is a Paleolithic continuity and that's one of the options, but there is no evidence of any paleolithic continuity. Quite the opposite.


If I2a1b was as common in ancient Balkans as it is today then surely there should be no problem to dig up some graves and prove this but what we are seeing is rather the opposite. Slavic male lineages , especially in Bosnia, Croatia etc replaced a lot of the natives.

This could probably be because a lot of the natives with the first Slavic and Avar invasions (see Antes, Sclavenis etc. ) , spilled south and where they got ansorbed by a proto Albanian population. Later settled the Proto Serbs and Proto Croats from more North and they found a lot of lands empty due to earlier invasions and plagues that had depopulated a lot of the Balkans, some Slavs had already settled there which they absorbed and some native leftovers , Latin speakers.

Later the Serbs emerged empires and they expanded even more south where they came into contact with Albanians and Latin speakers but that's another topic.

Bulgaria, Macedonia etc had more natives than Croatia, Bosnia etc.

One can especially see this by DNA. Since the Slavs in Bulgaria and Macedonia are more Southern shifted on average, shifting towards Albanians and get less East Europe.


I2a1b , before absorbing into a Slavic ethnos seems to have a North West European origin going by yfull and then expanded East . See France , Sweden etc where it was found.

gyms
02-01-19, 19:13
[QUOTE=Gash;562651]The TMCRA it has with North Slavs points it came from there within last 1500 years, more or less. If you check yfull.com.

Also how I2a1b was never found in any ancient Balkan remains points that it came later with Slavs.

In areas like Croatia where I2a1b is high today they rather found ancient remains of J2b2-L283, R1b L23 , Ev13 . Seems like I2a1b and Slavic R1a replaced these lineages in large parts.

They found I2a2 , G and other ydnas but that isn't the type common in South Slavs.

All this is old speculation that proves nothing.

It requires aDNA to move forward on this issue.

Gash
02-01-19, 19:31
All this is old speculation that proves nothing.

It requires aDNA to move forward on this issue.

I already updated my post above. It isn't really speculation. What ADNA do you mean ? What has autosomal DNA anything to do with this ? They have quite the East European influence and show IBD sharing with East Europeans.

Look at yfull and see the TMCRA it has with North Slavs. this isnt a speculation. They found its ancestral clade in Poland, France, Sweden etc. This was proven years ago by Nordtvedt that it isnt native. You people just never catched up and want to believe whatever suits you which is why you all have been pushing for the paleolithic continuity for years without any genetic evidence to back it up or a logical explanation, this is rather speculation or should I say its just wishful thinking. We can say it came with Slavs until proven otherwise pretty much. Now that they found ancient graves , see: a genomic history of south east europe; for example. it proves it even more. or points to that direction. Which is why I said every evidence we have so far points towards there.


We have ancient YDNA from the Balkans, they never found I2a1b because it replaced a lot of the native male lineages... most Croat and Bosniak males arent even J2b2 L283, R1b or Ev13 , or even I2a2 .


Youre basically arguing I2a1b is native but somehow lacks in the Northern Albanians and ancient Graves but ydna's common in Northern Albanians were found in ancient remains in Croatia where today I2a1b is high but no I2a1b was found .... nor in Serbia ... somehow I2a1b magically became a high frequency there but neighboring areas south of it has it less ... this makes no sense ... what rather happened is that it came with Slavs as shown by TMCRA and became a high frequency through a founder effect or bottle neck . It took with it some of the Slavic R1a ... most of the R1a in South Slavs is of Slavic origin too.. only a coincidence that I2a1b reached a high frequency eventually and not R1a ... this occured through a founder effect most likely.

gyms
02-01-19, 20:06
" What ADNA do you mean ? What has autosomal DNA anything to do with this ?"

My question is: what has Y haplogroup I2a1b to do with autosomal DNA?

gyms
02-01-19, 20:55
Ancient DNA (aDNA) is DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) isolated from ancient specimens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_specimen).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPevsner2015-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#cite_note-FOOTNOTEJones2016-2) Due to degradation processes (including cross-linking, deamination and fragmentation) ancient DNA is of lower quality in comparison with modern genetic material.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#cite_note-Allentoft,_M.E._2012-3) Even under the best preservation conditions, there is an upper boundary of 0.4-1.5 million years for a sample at around to contain sufficient DNA for contemporary sequencing technologies.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#cite_note-Willerslev,_E._2004._pp.9-4) Genetic material has been recovered from archaeological and historical skeletal material, mummified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy) tissues, archival collections of non-frozen medical specimens, preserved plant remains, ice and permafrost (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permafrost) cores as well as marine and lake sediments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA

Autosomal DNA is a term used in genetic genealogy (https://isogg.org/wiki/Genetic_genealogy) to describe DNA which is inherited from the autosomal chromosomes. An autosome is any of the numbered chromosomes, as opposed to the sex chromosomes. Humans have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes (the X chromosome (https://isogg.org/wiki/X_chromosome) and the Y chromosome (https://isogg.org/wiki/Y_chromosome)). Autosomes are numbered roughly in relation to their sizes. That is, Chromosome 1 has approximately 2,800 genes, while chromosome 22 has approximately 750 genes. There is no established abbreviation for autosomal DNA: atDNA (more common) and auDNA are used.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA (https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA)

Gash
02-01-19, 21:19
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

you can check out the yfull to see that this haplogroup and its various clades and their TMCRA are linked to Slavs. Even in Greece. Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this.

I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA.

Add that with what I said earlier that they never found any ancient DNA in the Balkans that was I-CTS10228 despite it's high frequency there today and you get a pretty good picture.

If you don't understand that then we can agree to disagree. :good_job:

gyms
02-01-19, 23:06
"Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this."

Are you talking to me? Did I say that? Everyone knows that the Paleolithic continuity hypothesis is out of date.

"I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA."






By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?

HiveMindTerror
06-01-19, 23:20
By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?

Russian...?

don_joe
07-01-19, 00:02
"Nothing to do with paleolithic continuity in the Balkans or Ilyrians. There is absolutely no evidence for this."

Are you talking to me? Did I say that? Everyone knows that the Paleolithic continuity hypothesis is out of date.

"I remember the most common clade in South Slavs, it's ancestral clade was found in Poland. Sharing a recent TMCRA."






By the way, what language spoke this medieval clade in Poland?Proto-Slavic? Speakers of Slavic languages spoke variants of a still very unified language. According to one definition of this theoretical (because there are no written sources) language on Wikipedia, they probably spoke Middle-Common-Slavic which was widely mutual intelligible among Slavic speaking peoples between 800-1000 AD.

Srbadija
07-01-19, 00:18
The archaeologist T Sulimirski and the linguists I Duridanov and W Porzig are of the opinion that the Baltic, Thracian, and Dacian peoples were long neighbors to each other in the pre-Christian era."

More accurate, the speakers of the proto-Balto-Slavic language and the speakers of Daco-Thracian language. Because i doubt that speakers of Baltic (in modern sense) had contact with those peoples.

mihaitzateo
22-01-19, 13:11
Since it seems I am little too interested about the Celtic/Gaulish ethnicities, at the moment, I would like to also add this supposition:
I2-din was brought from Central Europe and France, to Dacia and Balkans by the migrating Celtic/Gaulish tribes.
Here is a list of Celtic tribes that settled in Dacia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#Dacia
The the TMRCA of 2200 years ago is actually somehow more close to the migration of the Celtic ethnicities, than to those of Slavic speakers.
And I am referring to the La Tene Celts.

Please do not make a genetic confusion between the Celtic speakers of Britain and these Celtic speakers from Central Europe and France, that migrated East and established in the Balkans and in Dacia.
As a side note, there are I2 branches that are present only in the British Isles.

As a simple note, Dacians are known for wearing beards, but the tradition from Wallachia, Transylvania was to wear a moustache, at the peasants there.
That is rather Gaulish/Keltic style.
No idea about Moldavia, have not researched yet.

A simple question is from where are all the dark haired , light skinned Ukrainians?
Highly doubt that original Slavic speakers had any black hair. Dark brown, maybe, but very rare.

mihaitzateo
22-01-19, 13:17
So, what the people reading this thread think about the theory that I2-din was brought by the migrating Celts from Southern France and Central Europe, are these theories plausible?

HiveMindTerror
05-03-19, 20:12
So, what the people reading this thread think about the theory that I2-din was brought by the migrating Celts from Southern France and Central Europe, are these theories plausible?

I doubt it simply because I2-din is almost non-existent in western Europe. Unless the entire population got up and moved (doubt it).

Miroslav
07-03-19, 22:02
So, what the people reading this thread think about the theory that I2-din was brought by the migrating Celts from Southern France and Central Europe, are these theories plausible?

Not the first time being mentioned. I did write about it years ago, but when we only knew about I-S17250. Considering its and now known I-PH908 distribution and diversity in contemporary populations the Western-Central-Celtic migration falls short against Slavic migration. Autosomal results from medieval Bohemia indicate a Slavic movement from Eastern Europe as well.

Userius
12-03-19, 04:50
Unless I missed something, no I2 has been found in any Balkan samples from the Bronze Age onward. Only Sardinians today of non-Slavs carry any significant amount of an I2 variant. I'm also not aware of any Dacian samples, so we can't judge them and can just speculate that they were similar to Thracians. Although a heavily Mediterranean population similar to Greeks and southern Italians being that far north seems strange to me.

I'm with the consensus that I2a-Din spread with the Slavs.

gyms
19-03-19, 00:06
"I'm with the consensus that I2a-Din spread with the Slavs."

Consensus? Based on what? Modern distribution? How scientific is that? That's just folklore.

Tutkun Arnaut
19-03-19, 00:45
"I'm with the consensus that I2a-Din spread with the Slavs."

Consensus? Based on what? Modern distribution? How scientific is that? That's just folklore.


Statistics! where are Slavs that haplo is present in majority! Statistics is science as far as I know!

gyms
19-03-19, 10:14
Statistics! where are Slavs that haplo is present in majority! Statistics is science as far as I know!
Yes ,of course. Statistics is a branch of biology concerned with the study of genes, genetic variation, and heredity in organisms.

Dibran
19-03-19, 20:04
Yes ,of course. Statistics is a branch of biology concerned with the study of genes, genetic variation, and heredity in organisms.

Why is I2a1b-Din relatively non-existent anywhere Germanic/Scando-Germanic went, and over represented everywhere Slavs went?

It obviously wasn't originally Slavic being its ancestral clade was found in Sweden. Yet, it left Sweden long before the Scando-Germanic culture formed there. CTS102228 is overwhelmingly commonly found in Slavic nations. Most I2a1b in Germanics and Swedes all have more recent MRCA within the last 1000-1500 years. How the heck is it not associated with movements?

Many even suspect that it was when I2a1b joined R-Z280 & R-M458 that differentiated Proto-Slavic from Baltic. Some go so far as to say that Proto-Slavic is actually a Southern Baltoid language that was differentiated into Proto-Slavic with the inclusion of I2a1b and then the influence from Indo-Iranian.

What are the Germanic/Scando-Germanic branches of I2a1b-CTS102228 that are not found in Slavs? that are separated more than 2000 years? As far as I know I1 and I2a2a are the only I groups connected Germanic/Scando-Germanic peoples. There was also the case of the western cousin branch of I2a1b, I2a1a. It is also found in western europe. Despite no ADNA I find it hard to be associated with anything but the Slavic Migration. Maybe it was found to some extend in east Germanics prior to the migration? It seems however its ethnogenesis coincides with Proto-Slavs prior to the migration.

If Proto-Slavs were already occupying "east germanic" domains contrary to popular thought, than perhaps some slipped out earlier into your present location.

Having I2a1b doesn't make you any less Scandinavian(I assume per country of residence). 1000-1500 years is a long time. Hell, only takes a generation or 2 to change ancestral camps lol.

Perhaps some clades formed during the middle ages that may denote recent non-slavic ancestry. For instance my founder clade in L1029 is specific to Albanians so far. Which would mean the proto-Slavic ancestor or whatever they identified as, was assimilated into Albanians around the early middle ages and formed new branches that spread by other Albanians.

Modern statistics and diversity may not always be an exact science but all research up until now has mostly confirmed many hypotheses based off modern statistics with the finding of ADNA. Whilst ADNA for CTS10228 and M458 only date to the middle ages, chances are the adna wont be that far from the current position.

Angela
19-03-19, 21:51
One might as well ask why L21 went to the British Isles, DF27 largely to Iberia, and U152 to France and Italy.

Some clans went one way and some another.

Vlad82
19-03-19, 22:14
Why is I2a1b-Din relatively non-existent anywhere Germanic/Scando-Germanic went, and over represented everywhere Slavs went?

It obviously wasn't originally Slavic being its ancestral clade was found in Sweden. Yet, it left Sweden long before the Scando-Germanic culture formed there. CTS102228 is overwhelmingly commonly found in Slavic nations. Most I2a1b in Germanics and Swedes all have more recent MRCA within the last 1000-1500 years. How the heck is it not associated with movements?

.

Hi Dibran, where have you found that ancestor clade was found in Sweden?

Ancestor clade of I-CTS10228 is L621. The only known ancient sample of I-L621 was found in Prehistorical Portugal:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ca117b/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5531429/
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

I-L621 is ancestral for Dinarik I-CTS10228 and Disles https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
In modern samples, one region pops up as interesting for early diverged subclades of L621, it is Upper Raine basin (Southwestern Germany and Alsace) where few early separated branches of Disles and one of I-CTS10228* have been found:
Disles A' I-BY37319: P37+ M423+ CTS5375+ L621+ BY37319+ (A17060+) England and Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-CTS10936*: P37+ M423+ BY37319+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848- Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-S19848*: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002- Germany (Baden-Württemberg), Sweden;
Disles B' I-Y44771 P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ Y44771+ Germany (Baden-Württemberg), South Eastern Poland;
Disles B' I-BY31905: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ FGC20479+ BY31905+ Ireland, Scotland, England (more than 10 families from British Isles in this group);
Disles B' I-FGC20473: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ CTS11768+ FGC20479+ FGC20473+ Germany (unknown location, probably Dirminger near France and Luxembourg border with Germany), Scotland (2 families), England (2 familes);
I-CTS10228* (Y3120-) Alsace region France.

Based on the data it is possible that ancestor of I-CTS10228>Y3120 lived on the west before moved in Eastern Europe, approximate time period might be 2200-2500 years ago, but even 4000 years ago based on formation age of I-CTS10228* from Alsace. So it can be some known historical moment but also unknown.

Ownstyler
19-03-19, 23:22
In addition to all that was said above, two early examples of I2a1-L621 come from 10th century Poland and 12-13th century Russia, both Slavic cultures.

Tutkun Arnaut
19-03-19, 23:25
Why is I2a1b-Din relatively non-existent anywhere Germanic/Scando-Germanic went, and over represented everywhere Slavs went?

It obviously wasn't originally Slavic being its ancestral clade was found in Sweden. Yet, it left Sweden long before the Scando-Germanic culture formed there. CTS102228 is overwhelmingly commonly found in Slavic nations. Most I2a1b in Germanics and Swedes all have more recent MRCA within the last 1000-1500 years. How the heck is it not associated with movements?

Many even suspect that it was when I2a1b joined R-Z280 & R-M458 that differentiated Proto-Slavic from Baltic. Some go so far as to say that Proto-Slavic is actually a Southern Baltoid language that was differentiated into Proto-Slavic with the inclusion of I2a1b and then the influence from Indo-Iranian.

What are the Germanic/Scando-Germanic branches of I2a1b-CTS102228 that are not found in Slavs? that are separated more than 2000 years? As far as I know I1 and I2a2a are the only I groups connected Germanic/Scando-Germanic peoples. There was also the case of the western cousin branch of I2a1b, I2a1a. It is also found in western europe. Despite no ADNA I find it hard to be associated with anything but the Slavic Migration. Maybe it was found to some extend in east Germanics prior to the migration? It seems however its ethnogenesis coincides with Proto-Slavs prior to the migration.

If Proto-Slavs were already occupying "east germanic" domains contrary to popular thought, than perhaps some slipped out earlier into your present location.

Having I2a1b doesn't make you any less Scandinavian(I assume per country of residence). 1000-1500 years is a long time. Hell, only takes a generation or 2 to change ancestral camps lol.

Perhaps some clades formed during the middle ages that may denote recent non-slavic ancestry. For instance my founder clade in L1029 is specific to Albanians so far. Which would mean the proto-Slavic ancestor or whatever they identified as, was assimilated into Albanians around the early middle ages and formed new branches that spread by other Albanians.

Modern statistics and diversity may not always be an exact science but all research up until now has mostly confirmed many hypotheses based off modern statistics with the finding of ADNA. Whilst ADNA for CTS10228 and M458 only date to the middle ages, chances are the adna wont be that far from the current position.

About I2a2a. Most Albanians are L701. Mine was L801. I had matches in Germany, England. Common in Denmark, Sweden. I would say my haplogroup is connected with Vikings. My family traces its roots in Struga, but moved to Albania because my forefather had to hide. My question to you is how common is this haplogroup among Albanians in Macedonia, if you know anything.

Tutkun Arnaut
19-03-19, 23:31
Why is I2a1b-Din relatively non-existent anywhere Germanic/Scando-Germanic went, and over represented everywhere Slavs went?

It obviously wasn't originally Slavic being its ancestral clade was found in Sweden. Yet, it left Sweden long before the Scando-Germanic culture formed there. CTS102228 is overwhelmingly commonly found in Slavic nations. Most I2a1b in Germanics and Swedes all have more recent MRCA within the last 1000-1500 years. How the heck is it not associated with movements?

Many even suspect that it was when I2a1b joined R-Z280 & R-M458 that differentiated Proto-Slavic from Baltic. Some go so far as to say that Proto-Slavic is actually a Southern Baltoid language that was differentiated into Proto-Slavic with the inclusion of I2a1b and then the influence from Indo-Iranian.

What are the Germanic/Scando-Germanic branches of I2a1b-CTS102228 that are not found in Slavs? that are separated more than 2000 years? As far as I know I1 and I2a2a are the only I groups connected Germanic/Scando-Germanic peoples. There was also the case of the western cousin branch of I2a1b, I2a1a. It is also found in western europe. Despite no ADNA I find it hard to be associated with anything but the Slavic Migration. Maybe it was found to some extend in east Germanics prior to the migration? It seems however its ethnogenesis coincides with Proto-Slavs prior to the migration.

If Proto-Slavs were already occupying "east germanic" domains contrary to popular thought, than perhaps some slipped out earlier into your present location.

Having I2a1b doesn't make you any less Scandinavian(I assume per country of residence). 1000-1500 years is a long time. Hell, only takes a generation or 2 to change ancestral camps lol.

Perhaps some clades formed during the middle ages that may denote recent non-slavic ancestry. For instance my founder clade in L1029 is specific to Albanians so far. Which would mean the proto-Slavic ancestor or whatever they identified as, was assimilated into Albanians around the early middle ages and formed new branches that spread by other Albanians.

Modern statistics and diversity may not always be an exact science but all research up until now has mostly confirmed many hypotheses based off modern statistics with the finding of ADNA. Whilst ADNA for CTS10228 and M458 only date to the middle ages, chances are the adna wont be that far from the current position.

About I2a Dinaric, most Albanians belong in cluster Dinaric 3, which is not present in Slavic countries, but common in Romania. So Albanian Dinaric and Romanian Dinaric are native to Balkans.

Tutkun Arnaut
19-03-19, 23:38
http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country.jpg (http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-DinC-population-and-frequency-per-country.jpg)

http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/DinC-distribution-map.jpg (http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/DinC-distribution-map.jpg)Subclades:


DinC1 (A1221) 70% ~2 mln 400/450 CE Bulgaria, Moldova, Poland, Albania, Ukraine
DinC2 (A16413) 15% ~0,4 mln Serbia, Ukraine
DinCx (PH3414) 15% ~0,4 mln Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia

The haplogroup DinC (Z17855) is the smallest haplogroup of about 3 million men dominated by the population of Romania, in a smaller number of Ukraine, Russia and Bulgaria.It can be described as Black Sea population. DinC1 is the dominant subclade – about 2/3 of the DinC population. The mutation was made late because around 400 AD (100BC-850CE) the remaining mutations are small below 0.5 million.vayda http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/plugins/page-visit-counter/images/1456175371_vector_65_14.png822total visits,2visits toda



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http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-Z17855-frequency-per-country.jpg (http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/I2a-Dinaric-Z17855-frequency-per-country.jpg)

Vlad82
20-03-19, 00:20
About I2a Dinaric, most Albanians belong in cluster Dinaric 3, which is not present in Slavic countries, but common in Romania. So Albanian Dinaric and Romanian Dinaric are native to Balkans.

It is partially true. Albanians have about 7-9% I-CTS10228 overall. Dinaric A3 or Z17855 is probably the most common subclade based on confirmed Z17855 STR matches from the surrounding areas and some Z17855 tested people who claim paternal line origin from Albania, but there is very likely also some Y4460 and one tested Albanian has Y-str haplotype similar to A2512 that that is the most frequent subclade in Greece (have STR matches in Greek Macedonia, too).
For now, there are 3 confirmed Z17855+ Albanians, one unknown from FTDNA, one Z17855>A1221 from Albanian and I2a project, and one Shala from Kosovo tested at 23andme, plus 2 or 3 people who according to their stories have Slavic origin from North Albania.

In Albania among Albanians also appears cluster with distinctive markers DYS385=14-14 and DYS448=21. Three haplotypes with a huge difference on other markers that suggest that they do not have a recent common ancestor. One tested person is from South Albania, and in an anonymous study of Tosk the second haplotype appears and has a full str match on comparable markers in another scientific study probably from Tirana. The third one is from Kosovo with origin from Nothern Albania. This cluster also appears once in the scientific study of Greek Macedonia, no data about ethnic origin. The only deeper tested people with this distinctive values are from Mirilovici tribe from Hercegovina, they belong to Z17855>PH3414 and according to their family story and literature, their ancestors come from Prokletie mountain or Wester Macedonia. One haplotype from a scientific study of Macedonians might also belong to this cluster.

There is no data to confirm the expansion of Z17855 among Romanians, there are not much tested Romanian but most of the tested belong to S17250 with a significant part of PH908 and Y4460. The guy who made maps you referred to calculated tested non-Romanians in his sample, mostly Hungarians from Transilvania. He did a similar thing with Hungarian sample calculating people of (South) Slavic origin and Slavic surnames from Hungaria as Hungarians. Anyway, it is true that Z17855 is almost absent among West and East Slavs, but appears in all ethnicities in North Carpathians.

hrvat22
20-03-19, 08:10
If we follow YFull ancestor(I-Y3120) of subclade I-Z17855 is the same as for Croatians and considering that subclade I-Z17855 Croatians do not have much it is very likely that subclade I-Z17855 is some older migration from south Poland, southwestern Ukraine towards eastern Ukraine, Romania, Moldavia, Bulgaria and when Slavs in the 5th, 6th century or earlier enter to the Roman Empire or go towards the Constantinople that is one of the Slavic groups or part of the same which are coming from that direction all the way to Greece and after that it is assimilated into Vlachs, Albanian, Greek nation.

Dibran
20-03-19, 19:05
Hi Dibran, where have you found that ancestor clade was found in Sweden?

Ancestor clade of I-CTS10228 is L621. The only known ancient sample of I-L621 was found in Prehistorical Portugal:
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ca117b/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5531429/
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

I-L621 is ancestral for Dinarik I-CTS10228 and Disles https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
In modern samples, one region pops up as interesting for early diverged subclades of L621, it is Upper Raine basin (Southwestern Germany and Alsace) where few early separated branches of Disles and one of I-CTS10228* have been found:
Disles A' I-BY37319: P37+ M423+ CTS5375+ L621+ BY37319+ (A17060+) England and Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-CTS10936*: P37+ M423+ BY37319+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848- Germany (Baden-Württemberg);
Disles B' I-S19848*: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002- Germany (Baden-Württemberg), Sweden;
Disles B' I-Y44771 P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ Y44771+ Germany (Baden-Württemberg), South Eastern Poland;
Disles B' I-BY31905: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ FGC20479+ BY31905+ Ireland, Scotland, England (more than 10 families from British Isles in this group);
Disles B' I-FGC20473: P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ S19848+ CTS4002+ CTS11768+ FGC20479+ FGC20473+ Germany (unknown location, probably Dirminger near France and Luxembourg border with Germany), Scotland (2 families), England (2 familes);
I-CTS10228* (Y3120-) Alsace region France.

Based on the data it is possible that ancestor of I-CTS10228>Y3120 lived on the west before moved in Eastern Europe, approximate time period might be 2200-2500 years ago, but even 4000 years ago based on formation age of I-CTS10228* from Alsace. So it can be some known historical moment but also unknown.

The oldest known I2a1b-L161.1 individuals are the 8,000 year-old Loschbour man from Mesolithic Luxembourg, and a 7,800 year-old man from Motala in southern Sweden. Thats pretty much common knowledge at this point. Today however its rather non-existant in both places other than in Slavic populations. Much the same as I1 wasn't originally Germanic before Indo-Europeans, I2 was farmer before its various clades formed. This doesn't change the fact I1 developed with and spread from Germanic tribes. I2a1b-L161.1 just happens to be the clade that joined the expanding Corded Ware folk, and took part in the Proto Slavic ethnogenesis. Explaining why the majority of I2a1b in Europe is predominantly of Slavic origin. Meaning majority of those non-slavic I2a1b died out, as only its sister clade I2a1a is found in the west and not the east. Theres even some I1 clades that whilst Germanic spread and expanded with Slavs.

Dibran
20-03-19, 19:18
About I2a2a. Most Albanians are L701. Mine was L801. I had matches in Germany, England. Common in Denmark, Sweden. I would say my haplogroup is connected with Vikings. My family traces its roots in Struga, but moved to Albania because my forefather had to hide. My question to you is how common is this haplogroup among Albanians in Macedonia, if you know anything.

Very cool! Do you know what clade under L801 you are?
Just going off of Yfull it is mostly in north and north-west europe. I would agree its probably Vikings. More so Varangian Guard(which were stationed in Macedonia). Theres some clades that have more Slavs, perhaps those were East Germanics like Goths or Bastarnae that were assimilated into Slavs. I think in your case Varangian Guard is a good bet. They only showed up last 700-800 years though. How close are your matches outside of Albania? If they are further than 1000 years I would say Goths. They did settle cut through Western Macedonia. Normans are also a possibility. They cut through Dibra on both sides of the border. There is even a I2a1a Albanian from Diber Madhe in the project. According to our project results, I2-M223 makes up about 2 percent of Albanians. All the L701 are from Southern Albania. Did you do FTDNA or YSEQ? don't see you in the group. I imagine you're the first L801 in the group. Don't see any others in the results. The only Albanian from Macedonia in the project is the I2a1a sample I mentioned. So out of 33 Albanians from Macedonia it accounted for 3 percent.

Dibran
20-03-19, 19:36
About I2a Dinaric, most Albanians belong in cluster Dinaric C, which is not present in Slavic countries, but common in Romania. So Albanian Dinaric and Romanian Dinaric are native to Balkans.

No I am afraid not. Romania has just as much slavic ancestry as their neighbors. I think they are most alike with Bulgarians. Dinaric C is actually younger than the other branches. Its dominance in Romanians doesn't make it native. Its age for the entire Dinaric C is only 1550 years old. It lines up perfectly with the Slavic migrations. Dinaric C is found predominantly in Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and in Albanians and Greeks.

The fact a good majority of Albanian I2-Din is part of the Romanian cluster likely means that a majority of Albanian I2-Din is connected to Vlachs of Albania, a throng of which has Slavic ancestry and was likely latinized through co-mingling and similar professions. Even though the earliest ancestor is Slavic, the cluster likely indicates the recent ancestor was a Vlach in the case of Albanians. Or even a northern Greek depending on matching. I2-PH908 however, is dominant in Serbs, Bosnians and I think West Herzegovinian Croats. It is almost characteristic of a Serbian progenitor. It seems about 2 thirds of Albanian I2-Din is the Romanian cluster with the remainder falling in the Serbian PH908 and other I2-Din.

The most likely scenario is Din C in Albanians is jointly connected to Vlachs and the Bulgarian empire. I2-A2512 is the only clade of I2-Din that I think may be connected to Bastarnae. It is the oldest I2-Din clade, 2200ypb, and is exclusively found in Greeks and East European Jews. The time frame also lines up with around 200BC when King Phillip brought some to Macedonia. However, to my knowledge no Albanians have popped up in this clade.

Ownstyler
20-03-19, 22:27
Everyone, let's be careful with these classifications. I2a-CTS10228>Y3120 haplotypes are almost impossible to classify into any clade other than PH908. Almost no Albanians have been reliably classified into Z17855. Romanians also remain relatively untested. So much so, that there is only one Romanian Z17855 on YFull right now, for example. Speaking of Romanian, Albanian or Vlach clusters is a little premature at this point.

Tutkun Arnaut
20-03-19, 23:52
Very cool! Do you know what clade under L801 you are?
Just going off of Yfull it is mostly in north and north-west europe. I would agree its probably Vikings. More so Varangian Guard(which were stationed in Macedonia). Theres some clades that have more Slavs, perhaps those were East Germanics like Goths or Bastarnae that were assimilated into Slavs. I think in your case Varangian Guard is a good bet. They only showed up last 700-800 years though. How close are your matches outside of Albania? If they are further than 1000 years I would say Goths. They did settle cut through Western Macedonia. Normans are also a possibility. They cut through Dibra on both sides of the border. There is even a I2a1a Albanian from Diber Madhe in the project. According to our project results, I2-M223 makes up about 2 percent of Albanians. All the L701 are from Southern Albania. Did you do FTDNA or YSEQ? don't see you in the group. I imagine you're the first L801 in the group. Don't see any others in the results. The only Albanian from Macedonia in the project is the I2a1a sample I mentioned. So out of 33 Albanians from Macedonia it accounted for 3 percent.

I had a Y full and my closest match was a German from Berlin surroundings. I don't want to publish my full y here. I have no doubt that my early ancestors were either Goths or Vikings. What I am interested are Albanians from Macedonia region, mainly Struga. My forefather around 1800 had 7 other siblings . He committed a crime and went to hiding in southern Albania. He did not keep contact with them out of fear of being discovered. So we have lost contact with our distant cousins. I think I can have a chance of finding them if anyone with the same haplogroup appears in that area. My search through the last name has not produced anything. The reason I asked you was that I assumed you understand the Macedonian language and might be aware of anything in that language. Thank you for your response!

Nik
21-03-19, 00:03
Very cool! Do you know what clade under L801 you are?
Just going off of Yfull it is mostly in north and north-west europe. I would agree its probably Vikings. More so Varangian Guard(which were stationed in Macedonia). Theres some clades that have more Slavs, perhaps those were East Germanics like Goths or Bastarnae that were assimilated into Slavs. I think in your case Varangian Guard is a good bet. They only showed up last 700-800 years though. How close are your matches outside of Albania? If they are further than 1000 years I would say Goths. They did settle cut through Western Macedonia. Normans are also a possibility. They cut through Dibra on both sides of the border. There is even a I2a1a Albanian from Diber Madhe in the project. According to our project results, I2-M223 makes up about 2 percent of Albanians. All the L701 are from Southern Albania. Did you do FTDNA or YSEQ? don't see you in the group. I imagine you're the first L801 in the group. Don't see any others in the results. The only Albanian from Macedonia in the project is the I2a1a sample I mentioned. So out of 33 Albanians from Macedonia it accounted for 3 percent.
Food for thought, I'd suggest you to spend some time reading about the Moesogoths and Pannonian Goths to begin with. Goths were actually recorded to have settled in high numbers in Moesia and Thrace, as well as Pannonia.

The Romanization (Vlachs) makes sense for the Gothic foederati in the Roman Empire, whereas the theory that the ruling Slavs come to a Greek speaking area and abandon farming for a nomadic lifestyle and suddenly acquire a Romance tongue sounds like a stretch.

Now of course I'm talking about who spread CTS10228 not the origin. For the origin I'd suggest reading about the Celts and check where they were settled in antiquity (maps).

Curiosity: if you check yfull you will notice CTS10228* in France.

Furthermore, you can do some more reading on the wars between Dacians, Carpi, etc. and the Romans and see in how many instances these Dacians were actually enslaved and settled South of Danube.

So you might have a point to attribute their spread to Slavic migrations, but that seems to apply more to their spread Northwards and Eastwards whereas the Balkans have far better candidates consisting of nations that were already around the Carpathians (Dacians) or the ones that arrived later (first Celts, throw in there the Bastarnae, and later Goths).

P.s. This applies to your clade and to that of Tutkun Arnaut too. I believe it's worth investing some time in other theories (stronger in my opinion, especially because of the Romanization factor) and not to obsess too much only the Slavic theory.

Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Croatia were flooded with Vlachs and their Romance tongue is what got them the name Vlasi, not the fact that it simply meant shepherd and it was applied to Serbs. That could have indeed happened later.

Tutkun Arnaut
21-03-19, 00:07
[QUOTE=Dibran;570538]No I am afraid not. Romania has just as much slavic ancestry as their neighbors. I think they are most alike with Bulgarians. Dinaric C is actually younger than the other branches. Its dominance in Romanians doesn't make it native. Its age for the entire Dinaric C is only 1550 years old. It lines up perfectly with the Slavic migrations. Dinaric C is found predominantly in Romanians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, and in Albanians and Greeks.

The fact a good majority of Albanian I2-Din is part of the Romanian cluster likely means that a majority of Albanian I2-Din is connected to Vlachs of Albania, a throng of which has Slavic ancestry and was likely latinized through co-mingling and similar professions. Even though the earliest ancestor is Slavic, the cluster likely indicates the recent ancestor was a Vlach in the case of Albanians. Or even a northern Greek depending on matching. I2-PH908 however, is dominant in Serbs, Bosnians and I think West Herzegovinian Croats. It is almost characteristic of a Serbian progenitor. It seems about 2 thirds of Albanian I2-Din is the Romanian cluster with the remainder falling in the Serbian PH908 and other I2-Din.


If it was from Vlahs we would have known since to my knoledge there were not many mixed marriages between Vlahs and Albanians. Until 1970 most marriages in Albania were arranged marriages. I have witnessed arranged marriages in my family and questions asked about the bride or bridegroom were mindblowing. There were questions like: Does any one in her tribe has any mental sicknees, did anyone died of heart failings, or how long people in that tribe live, or is any sickness common in that tribe or why his or her cousin has a dark skin? If failing anyone of this questions the marriage was in doubt. Being a Vlah would not have gone unnoticed! So until recently Vlahs lived in separate villages or towns. If it is as you are saying could be from early slaves.

Dibran
21-03-19, 02:21
Food for thought, I'd suggest you to spend some time reading about the Moesogoths and Pannonian Goths to begin with. Goths were actually recorded to have settled in high numbers in Moesia and Thrace, as well as Pannonia.

The Romanization (Vlachs) makes sense for the Gothic foederati in the Roman Empire, whereas the theory that the ruling Slavs come to a Greek speaking area and abandon farming for a nomadic lifestyle and suddenly acquire a Romance tongue sounds like a stretch.

Now of course I'm talking about who spread CTS10228 not the origin. For the origin I'd suggest reading about the Celts and check where they were settled in antiquity (maps).

Curiosity: if you check yfull you will notice CTS10228* in France.

Furthermore, you can do some more reading on the wars between Dacians, Carpi, etc. and the Romans and see in how many instances these Dacians were actually enslaved and settled South of Danube.

So you might have a point to attribute their spread to Slavic migrations, but that seems to apply more to their spread Northwards and Eastwards whereas the Balkans have far better candidates consisting of nations that were already around the Carpathians (Dacians) or the ones that arrived later (first Celts, throw in there the Bastarnae, and later Goths).

P.s. This applies to your clade and to that of Tutkun Arnaut too. I believe it's worth investing some time in other theories (stronger in my opinion, especially because of the Romanization factor) and not to obsess too much only the Slavic theory.

Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Croatia were flooded with Vlachs and their Romance tongue is what got them the name Vlasi, not the fact that it simply meant shepherd and it was applied to Serbs. That could have indeed happened later.


I don’t want to be closed to the alternative scenarios you suggest so it’s definitely possible. However absent ADNA, modern distribution suggests otherwise. of course there could be another theory. Something in the middle of what you suggest and what’s the popularly held opinion.

Perhaps some M458 and CTS10228 were from Goths, Dacians. Maybe the free Dacians or Getae that fled further north formed the ethnogenesis of Slavs who migrated later and then were recorded as “Sklavenoi”. This could explain why only a few surviving clades had a demographic boom and expanded out again as Slavs. Maybe when Roman writers called Sklavenoi Getae there was some truth to it.

The queation is how how do we confirm either scenario when it rests only on guess work? Also how do we reconcile the young ages of lineages? And if some of these are actually Gothic or Dacian then what’s left that’s “Slavic”?

personally I think Proto Slavs were northern cousins/neighbors of Dacians/Getae. Much like Scandinavians and Germans have a common ethno-linguistic origin I think the same in the case for Proto Slavs and Getae/Dacians.

Also I thought most diversity for CTS10228 is in Poland while L1029 is in Poland/East Germany/Belarus?

markod
21-03-19, 07:31
I don’t want to be closed to the alternative scenarios you suggest so it’s definitely possible. However absent ADNA, modern distribution suggests otherwise. of course there could be another theory. Something in the middle of what you suggest and what’s the popularly held opinion.

Perhaps some M458 and CTS10228 were from Goths, Dacians. Maybe the free Dacians or Getae that fled further north formed the ethnogenesis of Slavs who migrated later and then were recorded as “Sklavenoi”. This could explain why only a few surviving clades had a demographic boom and expanded out again as Slavs. Maybe when Roman writers called Sklavenoi Getae there was some truth to it.

The queation is how how do we confirm either scenario when it rests only on guess work? Also how do we reconcile the young ages of lineages? And if some of these are actually Gothic or Dacian then what’s left that’s “Slavic”?

personally I think Proto Slavs were northern cousins/neighbors of Dacians/Getae. Much like Scandinavians and Germans have a common ethno-linguistic origin I think the same in the case for Proto Slavs and Getae/Dacians.

Also I thought most diversity for CTS10228 is in Poland while L1029 is in Poland/East Germany/Belarus?

If I remember correctly, while I2a-Din shows highest SNP basal diversity in the region between Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, STR diversity is highest in northern Romania and Moldova. Perhaps a very distant early ancestor of the Slavs originally came from assimilated southern neighbours before the expansion.

We'll probably never know who these people were though. All kinds of tribes lived in the western steppe.

Dibran
21-03-19, 20:39
If I remember correctly, while I2a-Din shows highest SNP basal diversity in the region between Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, STR diversity is highest in northern Romania and Moldova. Perhaps a very distant early ancestor of the Slavs originally came from assimilated southern neighbours before the expansion.

We'll probably never know who these people were though. All kinds of tribes lived in the western steppe.

Very interesting. That is possible as well. Kind of related to the theory I suggested where some free dacians fled north and expanded out later with the Slavic migrations. Maybe A2512 is Bastarnae or a Dacian/Getae that stayed behind? Could explain its occurence in only Greeks and East European Jews. Seems to be older than the other I2-Din clades expanding out with Slavs. How about for M458, and possibly more specifically L1029? I have an Albanian founder effect in L1029 with all my Albanian matches having a MRCA 0f 1200ypb roughly. My matches outside my clade is at basal L1029 with 2000-2100ypb. In all likelihood it came with the Slavs too since the founder is 1200ypb among Albanians. My theory is that even if it was Gothic/Dacian/Bastarnae, that since the founder effect likely occurred around 800AD it probably expanded with the Bulgarian Empire.

As far as I understand from discussions on the matter, the highest SNP diversity for L1029 is Poland and East Germany/ South-West Belarus. However, some have stated highest R1a diversity is actually in Romania as well. I have not been able to find any actual published sources stating any of the above but it seems to be the common consensus. I am unsure if the diversity in Romania is more STR related like I2a-Din or SNP related.

Nik
21-03-19, 22:42
Perhaps some M458 and CTS10228 were from Goths, Dacians. Maybe the free Dacians or Getae that fled further north formed the ethnogenesis of Slavs who migrated later and then were recorded as “Sklavenoi”. This could explain why only a few surviving clades had a demographic boom and expanded out again as Slavs. Maybe when Roman writers called Sklavenoi Getae there was some truth to it.

The queation is how how do we confirm either scenario when it rests only on guess work? Also how do we reconcile the young ages of lineages? And if some of these are actually Gothic or Dacian then what’s left that’s “Slavic”?

I didn't imply that it was the Goths who brought CTS10228 to the Carpathian area, but that they absorbed it and spread it in the Balkans before the Slavs.

It seems to me that the best candidates are the Celts who moved Eastwards and separated CTS10228 from his I2a-Disles cousin.

Demizar
23-03-19, 14:47
Bonjour ce sont des bulgaes (scythes) d ou le nom de serbes et croates .la premire migration c est faite l poque celtique et d autres par la suite

Szigmund
26-03-19, 12:32
Hello there!
I've found an interesting article. I really can not decide is it something crazy bull****, or a valid theory. Bacisly, the author wrote that the I2a groups are connected with the Celts and Slavs. What do you think?
I mean I totally go it the I2a-Din group according to today's theory is a White Croatian/Slavic group, but who were they before the Slavicization? For me, the term "Slavic" is much more cultural and linguistic, than genetical.
I'm new here, so I cannot post a link, but you can find the article ,,Gavran and Golub ban" at the Oldeuropeanculture.blogspot site.

Johane Derite
26-03-19, 12:36
Hello there!
I've found an interesting article. I really can not decide is it something crazy bull****, or a valid theory. Bacisly, the author wrote that the I2a groups are connected with the Celts and Slavs. What do you think?
I mean I totally go it the I2a-Din group according to today's theory is a White Croatian/Slavic group, but who were they before the Slavicization? For me, the term "Slavic" is much more cultural and linguistic, than genetical.
I'm new here, so I cannot post a link, but you can find the article ,,Gavran and Golub ban" at the Oldeuropeanculture.blogspot site.
The admin of oldeuropeanculture is a nutcase serbian nationalist that nonstop lies and spreads misinformation.

He nonstop claims all other south slavs as serbian and makes ridiculous claims going all the way to india. Not somebody to take seriously

Szigmund
26-03-19, 16:50
Thank you!

Szigmund
26-03-19, 17:25
The big problem I guess here is that after the Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture we haven't got a special group for the I2a1b variants, until the times of Migration Period... So if I'm not mistaken we see one culture close to one specific group, but after this period they mixed with the "newcomers", Slavic, German or other. After some of them arrived for new locations, some of them stayed in place, I guess so.

The strange thing what I often see on forums or articles that somebody see only percentages, somebody see only numbers. Often forget the historycal backgrounds, or circumstances.

My main question is: is there any typical I2a1b culture, after the Cucuteni-Tyrpillia? Who were the "Din" people before the Slavic ethnogenesis? Do we, or can we know anything for sure? Just the science didn't give answers for this question, or the interpretations from amateurs made the chaos?

As you can see I'm corious mostly in cultural connections. If the I2-Din is typical Slavic, than it's Slavic, but I see too many question marks with this topyc. Goths, Illyrians, Dalmatae, Tracians, Dacians... and basicly, everybody else, according to the personal preferences are connected to this haplogroup.

hrvat22
26-03-19, 21:14
Hello there!
I've found an interesting article. I really can not decide is it something crazy bull****, or a valid theory. Bacisly, the author wrote that the I2a groups are connected with the Celts and Slavs. What do you think?
I mean I totally go it the I2a-Din group according to today's theory is a White Croatian/Slavic group, but who were they before the Slavicization? For me, the term "Slavic" is much more cultural and linguistic, than genetical.
I'm new here, so I cannot post a link, but you can find the article ,,Gavran and Golub ban" at the Oldeuropeanculture.blogspot site.

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2014/05/bran-and-goluban.html


Thursday, 22 May 2014 Here is something interesting about I2a2a1-M284 (formerly I2b1a) in Ireland. Ireland is very good for genetic genealogy research because of its clans and a long written history. I2a2a1 (M284) seems to have arisen in Britain, where it is most common.

Slavs and Croatians have I2a1 haplotype or other branch so the link between Celts and Slavs is very old or in time when Slavs and Celts do not exist. This article that you mention is outdated.

hrvat22
26-03-19, 21:28
As you can see I'm corious mostly in cultural connections. If the I2-Din is typical Slavic, than it's Slavic, but I see too many question marks with this topyc. Goths, Illyrians, Dalmatae, Tracians, Dacians... and basicly, everybody else, according to the personal preferences are connected to this haplogroup.

I2-Din is not typical Slavic but branches of the same can be Slavic, Goth, Illyrian, Dalmatae, Tracian, Dacian etc, for now branch I-Y3120 can be Slavic and I-S17250 can be White Croatian.

Vlad82
30-03-19, 16:20
Dibran, you have mixed branches. Branch L161 or so-called Isles has no expansion among Slavs. It is called Isles because many tested L161 people in I2a project come from the British Isles. It was found among ancient samples in Britain, but also in several places around Europe including Eastern Europe. Also. it is present in modern Europeans all around the continent in very small percentages. I do not know if there is a specific Slavic subclade of L161.
For Slavs important is parallel branch L621 which consist of Dinaric and Disles. Disles is very rare in Europe, almost non-noticeable. The name is given by a combination of Dinaric and Isles, but on the phylogenetic tree, it is closer to Dinaric or I-CTS10228. The supposed time of formation is 11200 ybp. with TMRCA 6500 ybp. Among modern Slavs there is the only expansion of I-CTS10228>>Y3120, supposed time of formation is 3.800 ybp with TMRCA 2200 ybp.
For prehistory and early history of young subclade Y3120č found mostly among modern Slavic population, the most important are early diverge branches of L621 that I mentioned above. Also very important is to find early diverged subclades of I-CTS10228. On the level of I-CTS10228 there are +25 known SNPs and on the level of Y3120 there are +6 known SNPs. Every SNP is a possible new branch, these branches might be present in modern populations of Europe or extinct. Before we found it in modern populations or ancient samples, we can only hypothesize about the origin of Y3120 before its expansion in Eastern Europe. We miss about 1500-2000 years on Yfull tree.

Problem is that many people take for granted theories spread on the internet that do not have any support in current results and researches from Population Genetics. Many times ****** spread it as ultimate proven truth. Unfortunately, there is no portal on the internet that summarizes information from public projects and scientific studies about L621 and other haplogroups.
Some theories you mentioned in your posts. One is that L621 took part in the division of Balto-Slavic languages. According to linguistic theories (which might not be true), the division between Baltic and Slavic language happened 3.500-3.300 ypb.
If there is a population/haplogroup that influenced that division, the TMRCA of that haplogroup might be at least 3.500 years, and bearers of that haplogroup had to have a significant number in that time.
Currently, we know that Slavic branches of I-Y3120 were formed 2.200 ybp. Yfull calculations are not perfect, we can feel free to push it a little back in the past e.g 2.500-3.000 years ago, but it hardly had a significant number of bearers in that time considering that it might survived a long time bottleneck.
For now, it is the most important to find early subclades, we know that some of them exist in the modern population of Upper Rhine basin, but it is not enough for the final conclusion.

About Bastarnae/Germanic origin it is useless to talk. Migration of Bastarnae is historically confirmed, but there are no early subclades in areal of early Germanic Cultures. As I mentioned those subclades are found in Upper Rhine basin. It might be some known historical migration but also prehistorical. The same thing about Celtic migration which might be more plausible.

About Y-STR diversity, there are not many papers about it.
Ken Notdvedt as an early researcher suggested that the highest diversity is on the of I-CTS10228 is on the borders of Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.
Dragan Primorac claimed the highest diversity in Dalmatia.
Olga Utevska, a Ukrainian scientist, in her dissertation suggested two regions, one is around Upper Tisza Basin, in general, North Carpathians (E. Slovakia, NE Hungary, W. Ukraine, SE Poland), other is Dnieper Basin. I shared maps and paper here.
According to public projects on FTDNA, the highest diversity of I-CTS10228 is around North Carpathians. Many subclades are confirmed there, but no any I-Y18331.

I do not know for any research that found the highest diversity in Moldova. There is only one paper with haplotypes without DYS448. Tested people were from NW Romania, Moldova and Ukrainians from Moldova.
There are 3 most common branches among modern Slavic populations I-S17250, I-Y4460 and I-Z17855. They have somewhat different dispersion and expansion rates. The most common is I-S17250 (about 60% of confirmed people and about half of them are I-PH908). The second one is I-Y4460 (about 40%), both branches can be found almost elsewhere, first is the most common in Balkan, West Slavs and Western Ukraine, while I-Y440 has high share in rest of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, but there are members of this branch in Balkan, Poland, CZ, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania etc. The third one is I-Z17855 with about 5%, the branch is found mostly in Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and region of Macedonia.
There is no expansion of I-Z17855 in Romania, Ukraine and Russia. Up to some degree, it might be present in Transylvania and North Carpathians. Most of the tested Romanians belong to S17250 and Y4460.
There are confirmed Z17855 in Poland, Slovakia, CZ, Ukraine and Russia, but its share in I-CTS10228 is very low.

Maps shared here are not accurate at all and no reference how shares were calculated. Making maps is not easy, first, you need to find all data from scientific studies to see the percentage of haplogroups than find tested people on deeper subclades on FTDNA or elsewhere. Looking at maps I can say only that guy who made it did not know the difference between Hungarian and Romanian surnames in Romania. Most tested Z17855 are Hungarians. But even if you know surname you cannot know ethnic origin of a person on the paternal line if it is not self-reported. Several people with Romanian surnames said that their paternal line is non-Romanian, administration in the past changed their surnames in Romanian.
Also about maps of Hungary and Serbia. In Hungarian sample are calculated people of South Slavic and Rusyn origin. On the map of Serbia are included dinaric north results of Serbs from Croatia and Bosnia with a higher share of S17250, while Serbia and Montengro have about 7-9% percent of I-Z17855 which is similar to Bulgaria and Macedonia.
Albanians in anonymous studies have about 9% I-CTS10228, about 3% are DYS448=19 and 6% percent are dinaric north. Inthat 6% are surely people negative on Z17855 because some of them might belong to Y4460, S17250 and even one haplotype seems to be A2512. In the time when maps were made only one Albanian was confirmed as I-Z17855>A1221. So how did someone calculate 9% of Z17855 in Albania?
In the best case it is 4%-5%? I wrote a lot about the possibility that most of Albanian I-CTS10228 are Z17855, it is the only hypothesis based on STR matches.
Vlach people are a mystery, several of them are I-CTS10228 (both dinaric south and north), no one is tested on deeper subclades.

Greece has the highest diversity of I-CTS10228 in Balkan for now, at least a half ethnic Greeks with Dinaric results are I-Y18331. How this subclade finish in Greece nobody knows. Except for Greece and downstream Jews, two people from Russia are confirmed positive on this SNP.
Bastarnae lived in Moldova and settled in nowadays Bulgaria and Dardania. No one is these areas is confirmed to belong to this branch yet. Also no historical sources about the settlement of Bastarnae in Greece, especially in the southern part of the country.
Slavs were bearers of I-CTS10228 for sure, but I would not exclude many other possible migrations, some of them are Carpi, Costoboci (that overrun Greece), Huns, Goths, Kutrigurs and so on. It not clear if some branches were present North of Danube and Carpathians before Slavs entered the area.

Ralphie Boy
31-03-19, 00:49
“Greece has the highest diversity of I-CTS10228 in Balkan for now, at least a half ethnic Greeks with Dinaric results are I-Y18331. How this subclade finish in Greece nobody knows. Except for Greece and downstream Jews, two people from Russia are confirmed positive on this SNP.
Bastarnae lived in Moldova and settled in nowadays Bulgaria and Dardania. No one is these areas is confirmed to belong to this branch yet. Also no historical sources about the settlement of Bastarnae in Greece, especially in the southern part of the country.
Slavs were bearers of I-CTS10228 for sure, but I would not exclude many other possible migrations, some of them are Carpi, Costoboci (that overrun Greece), Huns, Goths, Kutrigurs and so on. It not clear if some branches were present North of Danube and Carpathians before Slavs entered the area.”

The parsimonious explanation for Y18331’s origin seems to be the northern Black Sea region or thereabouts. The Russian from Tobolsk and the Chuvash male who are Y18331 may have ancestral roots from there. How else could they be connected to the Greeks? The estimated MRCA of the Greeks and East European Jews in downstream A10959 (an exclusive Greco-Jewish branch) may have lived around 2,000 years ago.

There are no Y18331 Balkan Slavs so far.

Ownstyler
02-04-19, 21:52
Since the idea that I2a-CTS10228>Y3120 might not be Slavic keeps coming back, I am posting a summary of what the current data tells about it's origins and arrival to the Balkans.

Ancient DNA:
1- The earliest I2a-CTS10228 found so far is a Polish 9th cent I-S17250. It's closest relative on the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A16681/) is from Ukraine.
2- I2a is absent in a 5th-6th cent cemetery in Hungary (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4). This was a Longobard cemetery in use during and after the Germanic migrations but before the Slavic ones. Small sample (21) but there were several Germanic lines, and even a few more southern ones, but no I2a.

Modern DNA:
1- SNP diversity
As can be seen on YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/). Out of 5 major I-Y3120 branches:
-2 are only found in in Eastern Europe (Y3120* & Y4460) -tmrca 2200 for Y4460
-1 is most diverse in Greece, secondly in Eastern Europe (Y18331) - tmrca 2200
-1 is pretty even in diversity between Eastern Europe & the Balkans (I-S17250) - tmrca 1800
-1 is more diverse in the Balkans, secondly in Eastern E. with MRCA equal/close to the whole branch (I-Z17855) -tmrca 1600

So Eastern Europe currently has more branches, more diversity within them, and more distant MRCAs.

2- STR diversity
It has been calculated (here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bUIW1YACgZYlJGZWlNd25xTkU/view), p.26) that haplotypes with:
- DYS448=19 (I2a-DinSouth) are most diverse in the Poland-Belarus area
- DYS448=20 (I2a-DinNorth) are most diverse in Ukraine


To summarize, current data suggest a huge expansion out of Eastern Europe which reached the Balkans no earlier than the 5-6th century CE.

Ralphie Boy
03-04-19, 05:07
-1 is most diverse in Greece, secondly in Eastern Europe (Y18331)

Questioning whether one branch was spread by Slavs in no way denies that much of CTS10228 was spread by Slavs. The East Europeans in Y18331 appear to be all Jewish men, and thus not “Slavs,” per se. Isn’t that peculiar, and doesn’t that raise a bit of a red flag? Why are all the Y18331 East Europeans Jewish males and not “indigenous” people? Jews migrated to East Europe.

The apparently Greco-Jewish branch, Y18331-A10959, further split an estimated 2,000 years ago into Greek Y66192 and Jewish Y23115 (the Jews are downstream of Y23115). Why are there no Jewish males in Y66192 and vice-versa? Why are there no East European Slavs or Balkan Slavs in the entire Y18331 branch? There’s one Chuvash male and one Russian male from the city of Tobolsk in Y18331, very far away from East Europe. Since the parent branch Y18331 is an estimated 2,200 years old, and the major subbranches are estimated to have split off very soon thereafter, could they not have been carried or spread by some other East European people? Not only Slavs lived in East Europe or north of the Black Sea, and the major branches formed a long time ago.

Ownstyler
03-04-19, 06:33
I gave ample evidence that I-Y3120 expanded out of Eastern Europe. I was not saying that every single line was spread by Slavs, but the overwhelming majority probably was, and the great expansion experienced by this branch was first and foremost due to the Slavic expansion and migration. Not everything is already set in stone, but I presented the likeliest scenario with the current data.

You raised a lot of questions but gave no alternative explanations. Yes, the ethnic origins of Y18331 may still be debated, but it probably started in Eastern Europe too.

[QUOTE=Ralphie Boy;571610]Why are all the Y18331 East Europeans Jewish males and not “indigenous” people? Jews migrated to East Europe./QUOTE]

If you believe that the Y18331 in Eastern Europe is due to a Jewish migration, how do you explain the absence of this branch in the Middle East, or wherever you think these Jewish people moved from? Right now, it seems more likely that Y23115 started in Eastern Europe and was then spread by the descendants of a person or family who converted to Judaism there.

Ralphie Boy
03-04-19, 19:27
“You raised a lot of questions but gave no alternative explanations.”

In post #1435 above, I posited that the northern Black Sea region may have been where Y18331 formed. That might explain the connections to the Chuvash and Russian in Tobolsk, based on possible historical migrations. I do not believe that Y18331 formed in Greece, and that people migrated from there to East Europe. It seems pretty clear that Y3120 came from the north, and Slavs brought subbranches to the Balkans.

Maybe Y18331 is an eastern Slavic haplogroup, but major subbranches may have formed very quickly, per estimates. Maybe it’s a rare Slavic branch. The Greeks and Jews in Y18331-A2512-A10959 may have had a common ancestor an estimated 2,000 years ago. Where did that person live, and why are there no Slavs, if you will, in the haplogroup, either in East Europe or the Balkans? There is even a subbranch of A10959-Y66192 (Greek branch) that formed an estimated 1,000 years later, Y66804.

hrvat22
03-04-19, 22:30
We also have an old scientific paper (2007) in which it is concluded that to Britain possible come some Roman soldiers from Balkans (E1b) and it is not mentioned I2a-CTS10228>Y3120.

http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

That I2a-CTS10228 peoples in that time exist in the Balkans then and they would probably come to Britain.

There is also lack of I2a-CTS10228 in the Italians and if at time of Ilirians I2a-CTS10228 exist among them this should be seen in today's Italians.

Fatherland
09-06-19, 15:12
We also have an old scientific paper (2007) in which it is concluded that to Britain possible come some Roman soldiers from Balkans (E1b) and it is not mentioned I2a-CTS10228>Y3120.

http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

That I2a-CTS10228 peoples in that time exist in the Balkans then and they would probably come to Britain.

There is also lack of I2a-CTS10228 in the Italians and if at time of Ilirians I2a-CTS10228 exist among them this should be seen in today's Italians.







Agreed with this.

And at the same time Italy has alot of J2b2-L283, which peaks in Gheg Albanians. Central & North Italy in particular.

Miroslav
10-06-19, 20:32
Problem is that many people take for granted theories spread on the internet that do not have any support in current results and researches from Population Genetics. Unfortunately, there is no portal on the internet that summarizes information from public projects and scientific studies about L621 and other haplogroups.

There's an article South Slavic origin and I2a-Dinaric South (PH908) (http://southslavsdna.blogspot.com/) by South Slavic DNA Blog, which summarizes information on the migration of South Slavs and I-PH908. It is very long, but as other members said and evidence suggest, it is more than evident that the South Slavs are more or less 50% autosomal descendants of a medieval population hence they, with a partial exception of Slovenians, they plot differently on PCA from other Slavs. It also has an analysis of a general route of migration for I-PH908 and according to all the information the conclusion is that the haplogroup most probably was not brought by both Serbs and Croats to the Balkans. The origin of the route of migration is evidently, at least generally, somewhere in the Eastern Carpathians, where did live Croatian tribes, but not Serbian tribes, however according to historical sources both Croats and Serbs did not migrate from there yet German-Czech-Polish border.

A very good argument that I-PH908 did not arrive with the West Slavic tribes, including medieval Sorbs/Serbs and Czech Croats, are the Y-DNA results of the most Western South Slavic people - Slovenians - who are genetically closest to the West Slavs whose common ancestry most probably dates to the 7th century, for which it is cited The paternal perspective of the Slovenian population and its relationship with other populations (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251567977_The_paternal_perspective_of_the_Slovenia n_population_and_its_relationship_with_other_popul ations):


The differentiation of the Slovenian population from the rest of the Balkan populations is based primarily on the lower frequency of the I2a1b-M423 haplogroup. The calculated age of this specific haplogroup together with the variation peak detected in the suggested Slavic homeland could represent a signal of Slavic migration arising from medieval Slavic expansions. However, the strong genetic barrier around the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, associated with the high frequency of the I2a1b-M423 haplogroup, could also be a consequence of a Paleolithic genetic signal of a Balkan refuge area, followed by mixing with a medieval Slavic signal from modern-day Ukraine ... Furthermore, the genetic proximity of the Slovenian, Slovakian and, to some extent, the Czech populations, whose territory was united in the early days of Slavic settlement under the Samo’s tribal union, is of particular note (Barford, 2001). The homogeneous genetic strata of these three Slavic countries could reflect a common ancestral Slavic population in the central European region, which was later divided by the settlement of German tribes in the region of modern-day Austria and was influenced (mostly in the Slovenian population) by the South Slavic genetic pool ... AMOVA revealed the highest variation between groups when the Slovenian population was grouped together with other West Slavic populations, suggesting that the West Slavic populations and the Slovenian population are more genetically similar to each other compared with the South Slavic language group, which consists of the Slavic Balkan population and Slovenian population. This finding favours a hypothesis that suggests an origin of the Slovenian language in the West Slavic language group (Bezlaj, 1967; Grafenauer, 1950; Zˇ uzˇek, 2007).

Slovenians are often forgotten from the discussion, but the fact the Slovenians have such a low frequency of I-PH908, that there's a low frequency and variation of I-PH908 among West Slavs, including Lusatian Sorbs who have 0% I-PH908, it can be hardly argued anymore that it arrived with the medieval Serbs and most probably even Croats who also lived and migrated from today's German-Czech-Polish border. People often ignore that contemporary ethnonym ≠ genetics, and as for now the overall scientific data and conclusion is this, probably it will be a hard pill to swallow for some people obsessed proving their nationalistic pride.

HiveMindTerror
12-08-19, 02:04
@Miroslav
So from what I understand, you're saying I2 didn't arrive with Croats and Serbs? Then who did it arrive with?

Miroslav
13-08-19, 19:44
@Miroslav
So from what I understand, you're saying I2 didn't arrive with Croats and Serbs? Then who did it arrive with?

Well, seemingly that is what current information implies. Here or else can be read exceptional claims that the I2-PH908 surely or majorly arrived with the Croats or Serbs or both, but where's the exceptional evidence? The argumentation also has logical fallacies due to ethnocentrism. For example, contemporary Serbs tend to interpret the 0% among Sorbs as evidence there's no genetical connection between them or question if the Sorbs are "real Serbs" at all, rather than considering the continuity of ethnic identity with genetical discontinuity among Serbs and question if they are "real Serbs" at all. Likewise for example, when we read claims about the arrival with (White) Croats, if we put aside the fact "other" Croats did live around Carpathians and possibility they participated in Pannonian Avars activity all around the Balkans, it doesn't explain the frequency and variation in Bulgaria because they had nothing to do with Bulgarian territory. There's many samples from Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and so on, it had to arrive with/also with other Slavs, and there indeed arrived many Slavic tribes to the Balkans (see this (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Seven_Slavic_tribes&oldid=904643852#/media/File:Slavjane_na_Balkanah_2.jpg) and this (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Balkans_about_680_A.D.,_foundation_of_the_Fir st_Bulgarian_Empire.png) image), not to mention that Croats, Serbs and else were probably like Bulgars, a confederation of various smaller tribes who didn't neccessarily originate from the "original" tribe.

Aspurg
13-08-19, 20:37
Slovenians are often forgotten from the discussion, but the fact the Slovenians have such a low frequency of I-PH908, that there's a low frequency and variation of I-PH908 among West Slavs, including Lusatian Sorbs who have 0% I-PH908, it can be hardly argued anymore that it arrived with the medieval Serbs and most probably even Croats who also lived and migrated from today's German-Czech-Polish border. People often ignore that contemporary ethnonym ≠ genetics, and as for now the overall scientific data and conclusion is this, probably it will be a hard pill to swallow for some people obsessed proving their nationalistic pride.

There are some SNP links between White Serbia and Balkan Serbs through I-Z16983 (TMRCA 1650 ybp), Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs. Also a German parallel to them.

Also I heard an argument from Serbian admin that the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them. But I can't comment much on that.

In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.

Wonomyro
13-08-19, 21:41
There are some SNP links between White Serbia and Balkan Serbs through I-Z16983 (TMRCA 1650 ybp), Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs. Also a German parallel to them.

Also I heard an argument from Serbian admin that the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them. But I can't comment much on that.

In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.

Wikipedia on Chodove:


During the medieval period, the monarchy of the Kingdom of Bohemia recruited the ancestors of the Chodové from ethnic enclaves within the western Carpathian Mountain region near the borders of what is today Slovakia, Poland, and southwestern Ukraine [citation needed] (possibly including Silesia), relocating these communities to serve as guards along the borders between Bohemia and Bavaria from possible Germanic expansion into Bohemia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chodove

If the above information was correct then Chodové arrved from the area that was in historical sources known as White Croatia, only after the hypothetical outmigration of Serbs might have occurred.

That makes sense as White Croatia has been regarded as a potential source area of PH908 not to mention high fequencies of the said haplogroup in present day Croatian male population.

Miroslav
13-08-19, 23:08
Czechs in cluster I-Y6651 are descended from sub-ethnic group Chodove which are connected to Nabian Serbs.

It is not true. That group was first mentioned in the 13th-14th century (Late Middle Ages), while the mentioned connection to scholarly invented so-called "Nabian Serbs" is part of one of the fringe theories which tried to trace their ancestry to the Early Middle Ages.


the large presence of PH908 is not as required if the presence of Serbs there (in White Serbia) was brief, as well as that Sorbs do not descend from the Serbs, that they lived little bit to the north of them.

It sounds far-fetched. The presence of the Serbs was not brief because are mentioned there in the 7th century and according to historical sources they previously were subjects of the Franks. The refusal to connect Serbs with the Sorbs is problematic because the Lusatian tribes are mentioned only in subsequent centuries, some consider them as Serbian tribes, or Serbian assimilated, while others as separate, so either have direct or close ancestry and relationship, and that's based on historical, archaeological and linguistical evidence. The presence of PH908 is required, and not only, but I2 overall, considering the proximity and relation with Lusatian Slavs and yet that is not the case with contemporary Sorbs. The issue with the Sorbs is that they are the Slavs who have the lowest frequency of I2 (4%). That cannot be ignored, that's a fact, evidence, which must be taken into consideration regarding the regional ethnogenesis through history.


In any case I-Z16983 does look like a hg of proto-Serbs in tribal sense who might not have been that numerous but rather a tribe which assimilated other Slavic tribes. Other PH908 clades might have had different paths.

Yes, it's a possibilty, but considering the evidence, it does not look like a subclade or haplogroup representing "proto-Serbs" at all. It should be R1a-M458, which is found among both Sorbs and Serbs.


If the above information was correct then Chodové arrved from the area that was in historical sources known as White Croatia, only after the hypothetical outmigration of Serbs might have occurred.

It would be also after the outmigration and assimilation of White Croats in the region. We are not dealing with Serbs and Croats anymore for centuries.

Wonomyro
13-08-19, 23:43
It would be also after the outmigration and assimilation of White Croats in the region. We are not dealing with Serbs and Croats anymore for centuries. We are dealing with the I2a-Din haplogroup and its migration paths. Now we see another evidence that supports its origin from, or nearby, the territory of the early medieval White Croatia.

HiveMindTerror
14-08-19, 01:57
I find it amusing how often White Croatia is mentioned by historians. I thought it was more a mythical state? I've also read that most South Slavs were probably settlers from many small tribes that scattered across the Balkans, and that "Croats" and "Serbs" emerged from among these many tribes to gradually become the most powerful and relevant. Eventually they absorbed the neighbouring smaller tribes, until the modern ethnic groups came into being.

Also, Miroslav, I assumed haplogroup I2a-Din came from southern Ukraine and Poland? I believe it spikes in frequency in south-western Ukraine. It's also worth noting that early Croats were considered East Slavs, before they moved more into Poland. There was an East Slavic tribal confederation called the Antes, and that name stuck around in the Croatian language with many Croatian boys being traditionally named Ante.

Wonomyro
14-08-19, 08:13
I find it amusing how often White Croatia is mentioned by historians. I thought it was more a mythical state? It was not neccessarilly a state but a region populated by (White) Croats. Neither It was mythical because it was mentioned in more then one historical source.

Aspurg
14-08-19, 14:46
It is not true. That group was first mentioned in the 13th-14th century (Late Middle Ages), while the mentioned connection to scholarly invented so-called "Nabian Serbs" is part of one of the fringe theories which tried to trace their ancestry to the Early Middle Ages.

Some things other people at poreklo found:
Czech wiki:
"Velký význam však sehrálo přijetí Nábských Srbů (Chodů) Boleslavem I. za strážce západní hranice."
Also here: http://www.pismak.cz/print.php?data=piece&id=426346


https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/110277/E_ArchaeologicaClassica_16-1971-1_22.pdf?sequence=1
RUDOLF TUREK
ÚZEMN Í PŘEDPOKLADY VZNIK U MORAVSKÝC H ÚDĚLNÝCH KNÍŽECTV Í, 1971
It is also no accident that the primitive shapes
of ear-rings with various trinkets found at Věstonice have some analogues in South Bohemia
(Lékařova Lhota) and also in the southern most tip of the territory of the Serbians living along the Naab River (Matzhausen).


http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
"Při stopování dávných severobavorských Slovanů (nejen tzv. Nábských Srbů) narážíme na potíže nejen v tom, že nejsme schopni říci nic o etnické příslušnosti a jazyce, jímž v okolí Řezna mluvili lidé pohřbení s nádobami zdobenými vlnovkou vyrytou hřebenem, ale také ve skutečnosti, že místní jména zčásti či úplně slovanského původu, resp. se složkou Windisch, Wind-, se zhusta vyskytují ve výše položených končinách, méně příznivých zemědělství, v nichž nám zcela chybějí archeologické nálezy slovanského charakteru (to se týká i našeho Chebska."


http://stare.luzice.cz/clv/2008/clv_2008-07-08.pdf
Poučná je též kapitola Sen o životě bez Němců. Zde je uváděn i požadavek na připojení části území srbských Glomačů a v české historii téměř zcela opomíjených Nábských Srbů na jih od Šumavy."


These are all Czech sources.



In Southern Croatia I-PH908 is vast majority of I-Y3120: 96/220 43,64% out of 54.5 % for I-Y3120. In Northern Croatian (Kajkavian area) sample I-PH908 is just 24/220 10,90%.
Another subclade common in Southern Croatia is I-Y56203 (dys19=14), found in Serb clan of Niksici from Tara (not to be confused with Niksici proper who are I-Y52621), as well in some East Herzegovinian samples. It has been hypothesized they might be related to Zachumlians. YF03590 at YFull is a Pole Cisowsky 1500 ybp away. 11 of these in South Croatia. 4 in the North, 7 East, 1 West, 5 in Center. I-Y56203 is under PH908 (as is I-Y52621) though it isn't yet at YFull because there are problems with reading PH908 in BigY.


Along Dalmatian coast there were Travunia, Zachumlia and Pagania. According to the first degree historical source, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, Narentines (Pagania), Zachumlians, Travunians are explicitly of Serbian origin descending from those Serbs who settled the area in time of Heraclius. This fits into the spike of I-PH908 in Croats from there. I-Y56203 alone makes up 5 % of Southern Croats.


The area where Portifogenitus places the settlement of Croats is of course to the West, there we see spike of R1a, especially R-Y2608 in Chakavian Croats. As you know there is no clear demarcation line between the Slovenian and Croatian Kajkavian. And Croatian Shtokavian is very similar to Serbian. Chakavian is spoken by Croats from Gradisce, Austria etc. Oldest inscriptions in Croatian are Chakavian: Valun tablet from 11th century, Baška tablet from 1100.

1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.




It sounds far-fetched. The presence of the Serbs was not brief because are mentioned there in the 7th century and according to historical sources they previously were subjects of the Franks. The refusal to connect Serbs with the Sorbs is problematic because the Lusatian tribes are mentioned only in subsequent centuries, some consider them as Serbian tribes, or Serbian assimilated, while others as separate, so either have direct or close ancestry and relationship, and that's based on historical, archaeological and linguistical evidence. The presence of PH908 is required, and not only, but I2 overall, considering the proximity and relation with Lusatian Slavs and yet that is not the case with contemporary Sorbs. The issue with the Sorbs is that they are the Slavs who have the lowest frequency of I2 (4%). That cannot be ignored, that's a fact, evidence, which must be taken into consideration regarding the regional ethnogenesis through history.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17078035


Regional study of Czechs, in Western Czech R., in Klatovy I-P37 is 14.6 %. Klatovy are one of Chodove centers.

Some of opinions I saw from some Serbs also claim Sorbs descend from tre Lusatians and Milchani tribes who belonged to a different archeological culture and only later joined the Serb tribal union. According to Sedov (and other Russian and German archeologists) Luzichani and Milchani belonged to Tornov archeological culture whereas Serbs who lived in modern Czech-German border belonged to Ryusen culture.






Yes, it's a possibilty, but considering the evidence, it does not look like a subclade or haplogroup representing "proto-Serbs" at all. It should be R1a-M458, which is found among both Sorbs and Serbs.


Now that you mention it some Serbs are R-L260 and not only that they are R-Y2905+. I took a look at Sorb R1a's and the dominant Sorb haplotype is basically certainly R-Y2905 whose TMRCA is 2000 ybp, so there might be some connection there. There is in Croats R-Y132940 cluster but they are Y2905-.

R-M458 is 4700 years old and is found in many peoples. Among Serbs M458 is less common than Z280, and under M458, R-YP417 is the most common sublcade. Then there are two clusters of R-A11460, one of whom are connected to the Slavic Berziti tribe in Central Balkans.

hrvat22
14-08-19, 15:27
HiveMindTerror (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/57760-HiveMindTerror)


I've also read that most South Slavs were probably settlers from many small tribes that scattered across the Balkans, and that "Croats" and "Serbs" emerged from among these many tribes to gradually become the most powerful and relevant.

Who are Serbs or Croats is determined by historical records, and that historical records proves or refute genetics.

Today Serbs and Croats share mostly the same Slavic Genetics which has one source and the same path, but the Serbs and Croats at the source(original homeland) are not the same nor they share the same path.

Therefore originally only one tribe coming to Roman Dalmatia if we follow genetics and there are Serbs or Croats or someone else. Serbs have their own historical path and this is an area of Lusatia, Greece (Thessaly) and Roman Dalmatia, none of today's Serbs or Croats have this genetic path or if they have that's a couple percent. Everything else is logic.

hrvat22
14-08-19, 16:19
Aspurg (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/56528-Aspurg)


1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.
2. Baška is on the island of Krk, there in another study (Barac et al. 2003 - Y chromosome STRs in Croatians) R1a was at 37.8 %, hg "I" (might include some I1s etc) was at 28.4 %.

These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them.

The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


R1a-SRY10831
Croatian mainland 0.339 37 0.257–0.433
Krk 0.378 28 0.276–0.493
Brač(Dalmatia) 0.265 13 0.162–0.403
Hvar(Dalmatia) 0.087 8 0.045–0.162
Korčula(Dalmtia) 0.201 27 0.142–0.0277


I-M170
Croatian mainland 0.376 41 0.291–0.470
Krk 0.284 21 0.194–0.396
Brač 0.551 27 0.413–0.682
Hvar 0.659 60 0.557–0.749
Korčula 0.537 72 0.453–0.620


Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database 2011.

West Croatia(Istria, Lika, Croatian Littoral(Primorje)
Out of 220 people 81 person have I2a1 and 42 person have R1a.


I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.

You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Greece and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.
From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.


1. Valun is on the Cres island, where in a sample of 99 (Barac et al. 2003 - island isolates study), R1a was 56.6 %, around half were M458, half M558*. I-Y3120 is 3 % there.

Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.

"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."

Where did you find data for Cres?

Aspurg
14-08-19, 17:32
In that area up to Montenegro and southern Serbia historical records also find and Croatians.


Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..




You always must go from beginning and historical source, Serbs coming to Roman Dalmatia from Lusatia to Grecce and from there to the eastern part of Roman Dalmatia, there is no genetics that proves that path.


I-Z16983 in Chodove Czechs, German and various Serbs.
Greek from Corfu IN11576 Z16983+
I-Z16983>A493>A8740 Germans from Unterafferbach, Clausthal-Zellerfeld and Rzepin Poland
Another Pole I-Z16983+ from Lubola, predicted A493-.
One Bulgarian from SE of Bulgaria near border with Turkey (Topolovgrad) predicted as A493+.
There is also one Ukrainian predicted as A493+, Z16983+ confirmed.


So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.






From that area(Narentines etc) are mentioned "Litzike" wich originate in Vistula area but Serbs the not coming from that area and it says that someone else is in that area.


Knez Mihajlo/Michael Visevic as ruler of Zachumlia was reportedly of Vistula roots but it is not said explicitly he is descended of Zachumlians who lived there. Either way I-Y56203 has some presence there.






Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


"A detailed description of sampling procedurefor 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Brač, 91from Hvar and 134 from Korčula was reported in ourprevious paper."


Where did you find data for Cres?



The heart of the medieval Croatian state is in Dalmatia and there is the epicenter of I2a S17250


Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876


Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls


Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.
11301


On the other hand in Cres 56.6 % R1a, 3 % I2a, also in Dugi Otok 31.8 % R1a, 11.4 % I2a.


In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.


On some other more Northern islands you see R1a matching I2a.
Ugljan - 25 % R1a, 25 % I2a
Pasman - 38 % R1a, 38 % I2a


On Southern Lastovo, Vis I2a is stronger, only on the Pag island closer to coast I2a manages to beat R1a.


As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample.. :good_job:

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:smile: I think that was speculated for many decades.

hrvat22
14-08-19, 18:58
Aspurg (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/56528-Aspurg)


Yeah, I remember you quoting those men with the added name Hrvat from 1526, while it has been explained by experts (author of the translation included) what it means: captured slaves from the contemporary area of vilayet named Croat/Hrvat, which was way to the West.. Those men of Dalmatian Zagora origin cannot count as any sort of presence.. Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:, while it is ofc a shortened Christian name Antun->Ante, Josip->Jozo etc. I don't go into such "discussions" other than to point the obvious facts and I told you back then what they are regarding those men with added name "Hrvat", same as other people with "names" identical to other administrative Ottoman units..


Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mention Croats in central Montenegro and in surrounding area of Gacko in eastern Herzegovina.

" Personal names Hrvatin(Croatin) (since 1301), Hrvajin(since 1475), Hrvo (since 1475), Hrvoje (since 1475) and Hrvat( Croat) (since 1475) in the Middle Ages
we find all over eastern Herzegovina: from Bisce near Mostar, Zažablje, Popovo,
Površi and Trebinje to Biograd near Nevesinje, Stolac and Plane near
Bileća(border with Montenegro)

In the Turkish time of slaves or captured Croats there are at the same time and some "gulam" muslim and about 150 thousand Slovenians(if I remember well, large number surely) taken into slavery and there is not a single "gulam" Slovenian at that list(1526) or later meaning that these Croats but also and the Bosnians are indigenous there. Are they indeed captured in their homeland they probably are and that homeland is in the area of southern Serbia.

A large part of the Bosnian army are "gulam" Croatian while Aali (1542. (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1542.)-1599. (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1599.)) (Turkish historian) says following for all of them "gulams" "With regard to the tribe of Croats attributed to the river Bosna, their significance is reflected in the happy spirit; they are known by Bosnia and they have a name from Bosna river.

Otherwise, I already answered that "merd" and "gulam" may be synonymous ie that word "merd" would mean forgotten slave origin. From where these (Bosna merd) Bosniaks came to Bosnia as slaves?


So you see I-Z16983 does all that, potential links with tribal Serbs from Western Czechs, also some other people around there. Various Serbs belonging to it, as well as importantly one Greek and one Bulgarian near Greek/Turkish border.
Thus far of "White-Serbian" clades I-Z16983 seems obvious as might R-Y2905 shared by some Serbs and Sorbs.


There must be an older (ancestor) mutations in the area from where Serbs coming to the Balkans, where are these mutations specifically in which area and which specific mutations are they and where they are in the Balkans.


Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates, 2003.


There was actually a 2nd study from 2016, not 2003 (older one was from 2003), where Cres is included
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22876 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876)


Supplementary info, table5 contains SNP calls


R1a1a1b1a*‐M558 lineage , where are R1a M458?


In these northern Dalmatian areas, Chakavian areas you see more R1a. In Paganian, Zachumlian areas you see dominance of I2a. Now per Porfirogenitus river Cetina was demarcation line between Croats and Serbs and Pagania falls outside this line to the South. And he says of their origin what he says.




Yes I is high in 2003 in Brac (55.1 %), Hvar (65.9 %), Korcula (53.7). But look at this map of Pagania (settled by Narentians), all of these islands are Paganian.

As usual you don't listen what I'm talking about, Serbs coming from Lusatia to Greece and from there to Roman Dalmatia. There is no genetics to prove that path. Do you know what the answer is?


As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..

Croats speak one language not three, however we have nothing to discuss when language has nothing to do with origin.


Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. :cool-v: I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link?:smile: I think that was speculated for many decades.

The Croats might also be of Chinese origin, but for now genetics proves that they are of Slavic Carpathian origin ie White Croatian.

Wonomyro
14-08-19, 19:19
As I've said I'm sure there are Croatian I-Y3120's (I see some interesting clades for that) but the fact that R1a is so strong in Chakavian areas and that earliest Croatian inscriptions are Chakavian cannot be denied. You think Old Croats when they migrated spoke 3 languages? If not it's clear who is favorite for the original Croat language and what hg is most associated with it... Especially going by Cres sample..

Btw I think I found hg of the original Croats, that is pre-Slavic Croat Croats who are of Alan Iranian/Caucasian origin. I couldn't find that for Serbs. There is one clade but present more in Croats, might be more likely Iazigian.

That's something many Croats desire isn't it, such link? I think that was speculated for many decades.

I realy don't get what you want to say with this bunch of Croatian regional samples.

However I must react to nonsense about Croatian dialects. Do you know that, nearly at the time when Croats arrived to Dalmatia (and Panonia and Illyricum), all Slavs still spoke one language? Languages and dialects started to emerge later.

And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?

Aspurg
14-08-19, 20:34
And where did you get an idea that Croats are of "Alan Iranian/Caucasian" origin? There is no hg nor autosomal, nor anthroplological relation to these peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

I'm not playing games here, any Alano-Sarmatian tribe in my book (and in the books of so many others especially prior to deeper Y-DNA tests) generally has alot more value to it than any random Slavic tribe.



What caused this flood of nonsense about Croats? Was it the information on Chodove origin that doesn't fit into your (Serbian) agenda?

I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

hrvat22
14-08-19, 20:57
Aspurg (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/56528-Aspurg)


I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

These Serbs mentioned by Porfirogenitus coming from Lusatia and Greece, it means that they do not exist in this area today(if we follow genetics). And Avars are also mentioned in Pannonia but their descendants the not exit in Pannonia. Does not mean if someone is mentioned somewhere that it is there forever. And Croats are mentioned in Illyricum and Pannonia and they are gone, although we have to say that some Croatian (White Croatian)genetics have remained.

Wonomyro
14-08-19, 21:52
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Croats#Iranian_theory
Most Croats are not, but certain 5 Croats from the 1100 sample who have a very specific G-L293 haplotype are certainly related to a Slovenian G-L293 at FTDNA (near Croatian border), this haplotype is basically confined to Croats (and this Slovenian near the border). There are various G-L293's that have Sarmanian/Alan origin, and various G-L293 were found in Steppe peoples thus far. Slovenian has 111 STR's and I have just successfully estimated what subclade he is!
There is another J1-Z1828 haplotype which is of certain Sarmatian (because of some people in UK, etc)origin occurring in 4 Croats from the study. But this one might be Iazigian, occurs in one Serb. This clade fits perfectly into some aDNA J1 Sarmatian finds from Caucasus.

Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...


There is also a Croat R-Z93>S10438 from Zagreb, but he is likely of Avar origin as this clade has an Avar connection. Interestingly there is also an Avar theory of Croat origin among those isn't it. There was one G-L293 in Avars, however these G-L293 do not exist in Hungarians, Romanians..

Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?



I mostly copy-pasted opinions of others (mostly from poreklo) who have researched this matter far more than me. But just setting some things straight. It was not me who said that Paganians and others are of Serb origin it was the Porfirogenitus.

You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.

Aspurg
14-08-19, 22:33
Are you trying to conclude something about the origin of the whole nation based on coulple of exotic samples found in the present day population? Your methodology does not seem to be very convincing...

Well obviously genetically vast majority doesn't have such origins, nevertheless so many authors hypothesized about said origins, and it was considered preferable by many in the past and likely still to this day among Croats to have such origin.

Well I think once these "exotic" Croats pop up among commercially tested people they might sing the same tune. In fact I see the Slovenian of this cluster has already joined the Ossetian project.

So lets not pretend this is something new, it is not and still there are many Croats who would prefer this to be true, hence no need to raise your eyebrows as if I'm trying to "spoil" something. This also used to be very much mainstream among Croats.



Really? You find ONE Avar in Zagreb?!!! Great!!! Who can ever doubt that Croats are of Avar origin?

Well it is to be expected to find such traces there considering the history etc. I didn't say I consider the Avar theory that serious but who knows.. From wiki:


The theory was initially developed by Otto Kronsteiner in 1978.[24][40] He tried to prove that early Croats were an upper caste of Avar origin, which blended with Slavic nobility during the 7th and 8th century and abandoned their Avar language.[41] As arguments for his thesis he considered the Tatar-Bashkir derivation of Croatian ethnonym;[41] that Croats and Avars are almost always mentioned together

Actually the Zagrebian has cousins among Tatars and Bashkirs!



You should not copy-paste opinions of other people. Paganians do not descent from 7th century Serbs as the people who lived in that territory never called themselves Serbs during the last 1300 years (and no other source mentioned them as Serbs). Moreover, there is no arceological evidence of 7th century Serbs whatsoever.

Well translating those views also involves little bit work from me. Have you been there on poreklo, I saw one Croat arguing there about White Croats and I-Y3120 etc. and yes Serb admin used Chodove, I-Z16983 and other points against him.
About early Serbs, yes there aren't many early finds, but I think Jankovic and others wrote about some..

I agree that Paganians were a specific population in many ways, but the Byzantine emperor/historian had his own sources, him being emperor definitely must have helped in research.

Miroslav
14-08-19, 23:12
We are dealing with the I2a-Din haplogroup and its migration paths. Now we see another evidence that supports its origin from, or nearby, the territory of the early medieval White Croatia.

Hardly an evidence, it's only an assumption on the Chodove movement and ancestry.


Czech wiki: "Velký význam však sehrálo přijetí Nábských Srbů (Chodů) Boleslavem I. za strážce západní hranice."

I cannot find that in the Czech wiki.


It is also no accident that the primitive shapes of ear-rings with various trinkets found at Věstonice have some analogues in South Bohemia (Lékařova Lhota) and also in the southern most tip of the territory of the Serbians living along the Naab River (Matzhausen).

This is out of context. Chodove live in Western Bohemia while this quote is relating to South Moravia and South Bohemia, and dated to "the end of the Great Moravian Empire period and later".


These are all Czech sources.

I don't see anything relevant. Fringe theory is a fringe theory, no matter from where, language or reliability is the source.


Along Dalmatian coast there were Travunia, Zachumlia and Pagania. According to the first degree historical source, Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, Narentines (Pagania), Zachumlians, Travunians are explicitly of Serbian origin descending from those Serbs who settled the area in time of Heraclius.

DAI is more often a political rather than historical source. That quote is most probably a Emperor's invention because at the moment these principalities became under Serbian rule in the 10th century, due to the Serbian political expansion under Časlav who was supported by the Byzantines. If you want to consider that the source is saying the truth then population of Dioclea, for which is not mentioned such a thing, is not of Serbian origin. Also, more importantly, according to the source Serbia became completely desolated and was resettled. That was described in details so it was certainly based on archival sources, contrary to exceptional claims about something centuries ago.


The area where Portifogenitus places the settlement of Croats is of course to the West, there we see spike of R1a, especially R-Y2608 in Chakavian Croats... These facts give better insight as to what the original White Croatian haplogroup might be, R-Y2608 being the number one, but also there are some other branches such as R-Y132940 who likely migrated with them. / Now that you mention it some Serbs are R-L260 and not only that they are R-Y2905+. I took a look at Sorb R1a's and the dominant Sorb haplotype is basically certainly R-Y2905 whose TMRCA is 2000 ybp, so there might be some connection there. There is in Croats R-Y132940 cluster but they are Y2905-.

Most probably both Serbs and Croats were predominantly R1a. Good analysis of Sorb & Serb R1a. People should waste less time on PH908 and focus more on R1a.


I know it must be convenient for many Croats to lump some Narentine I-Y3120's into White Croats, but Narentines were not White Croats, and Portifogenitus, who of any sources we have is the most competent to speak about their origins because he must have gained this information first hand from their chiefs, said they were of Serb origin. But I think there likely are I-Y3120 White Croatian clades too.

Well, you're doing the same thing, lump and accept what is convenient to you from DAI, and ignoring what is not. We don't know if Narentines were or not directly and how much related to the Croats. DAI is obviously referring to the Sorbs in the centuries it was written, directly relating Sorbs and Serbs, and yet "many Serbs" tend to ignore and neglect that. The previous assumptions you made were according to the results of contemporary Croatian and Serbian population in the South, with founder effects and else, while if we want to know what was the Y-DNA haplogroup proportion in those so-called White Serbs and White Croats tribes we should analyze their ancestral & contemporary population in the North, especially if they were in isolation. Otherwise we are not proving the thing we claim to prove.


Regional study of Czechs, in Western Czech R., in Klatovy I-P37 is 14.6 %. Klatovy are one of Chodove centers.

If you put that in the context of the study of Sorbs then can be made some parallels, otherwise it is not saying anything. What is the % of Dinaric-South in Klatovy?


Sedov (and other Russian and German archeologists) Luzichani and Milchani belonged to Tornov archeological culture whereas Serbs who lived in modern Czech-German border belonged to Ryusen culture.

Except that Sedov relates Sorbs with Lusatian Slavs, and Sorbs with Serbs.

Wonomyro
14-08-19, 23:12
Well obviously genetically vast majority doesn't have such origins, nevertheless so many authors hypothesized about said origins, and it was considered preferable by many in the past and likely still to this day among Croats to have such origin.

Well I think once these "exotic" Croats pop up among commercially tested people they might sing the same tune. In fact I see the Slovenian of this cluster has already joined the Ossetian project.

So lets not pretend this is something new, it is not and still there are many Croats who would prefer this to be true, hence no need to raise your eyebrows as if I'm trying to "spoil" something. This also used to be very much mainstream among Croats.

Well it is to be expected to find such traces there considering the history etc. I didn't say I consider the Avar theory that serious but who knows.. From wiki:

Actually the Zagrebian has cousins among Tatars and Bashkirs!

Well translating those views also involves little bit work from me. Have you been there on poreklo, I saw one Croat arguing there about White Croats and I-Y3120 etc. and yes Serb admin used Chodove, I-Z16983 and other points against him.

Science is not based on anecdotes. There is a nice study on Croatian medieval skulls (M. Šlaus) that found the close relation with Poland. The same study found Iranic skulls very distant. Medieval Croats were Slavs as much as medieval Poles were.


About early Serbs, yes there aren't many early finds, but I think Jankovic and others wrote about some..

Yeah. In absence of early Serbian findings, Jankovic was looking for Serbs in the center of medieval Croatian dukedom :laughing:


I agree that Paganians were a specific population in many ways, but the Byzantine emperor/historian had his own sources, him being definitely must have helped in research.

Some scientists like Slovenian B. Grafenauer argumented that emperor did not know anything about the early Serb history so he used Croat one as a template. He analysed sentence by sentence.

Wonomyro
14-08-19, 23:18
Hardly an evidence, it's only an assumption on the Chodove movement and ancestry..

But what quality of evidence do we have on the other side?

Miroslav
15-08-19, 00:13
But what quality of evidence do we have on the other side?

It doesn't matter, the thing is that's an assumption on the emergence of Chodove in the region. What's their early history, only God knows.

On Czech wiki is said that, translate, "The Chodas appeared in written sources during the 13th century and there are disputes as to whether their origin can be derived from the early medieval guards, which served here during the Přemyslid princes, or whether the population was newly settled here during the settlement processes century. Some sources also derive from the military raids of Czech princes to Poland in the 11th century, from which the Slavic population was to be moved from the Noteć and Khojja rivers near the princely Gniezno. This would also explain the ethnographic differences from the surrounding population as well as the sometimes eastward dialect".

Anyway, both theories, especially the second, don't support the fringe theory about "Nabian Serbs". Actually, the source above is really confusing, "Při stopování dávných severobavorských Slovanů (nejen tzv. Nábských Srbů) narážíme na potíže nejen v tom, že nejsme schopni říci nic o etnické příslušnosti a jazyce, jímž v okolí Řezna", because considers them as North Bavarian Slavs (are Nabian Serbs here a synonym for Sorbs?), saying that it is difficult to know the ethnicity and language of the Slavs around Regensburg (?). The whole chapter is titled and dealing with "Přednáška o starých Slovanech v Bavorsku" and is published in Lusatian Sorbs magazine Česko-lužický věstník.

Indeed, Michal Živný from the University of Ostrava in Pohřební ritus na Moravě v 11. - 15. století ve středoevropském kontextu (https://www.academia.edu/14343097/Poh%C5%99ebn%C3%AD_ritus_na_Morav%C4%9B_v_11._-_15._stolet%C3%AD_ve_st%C5%99edoevropsk%C3%A9m_kon textu) wrote on pg. 41 "První oblast představuje přibližně jižní a střední část Německa, západní polovina Rakouska a Švýcarsko. Části tohoto území jižně od Dunaje a západně od Rýna byly od počátku doby římské součástí římského impéria a později i antické církevní organizace. Za hranicemi impéria sídlily od doby římské germánské kmeny - na jihozápadě Německa Alamani, ve střední části Frankové a na východ od nich se vytvářeli Durynkové. V době stěhování národů došlo k částečnému přerušení vývoje v bývalých římských provinciích, způsobenému invazí Alamanů do Švýcarska a Rakouska a přesídlením svévských kmenů do Bavorska. V 5. - 6. století se popisované území stalo součástí Francké říše. Je možno dodat, že nějakou dobu po porážce Durynské říše Franky roku 531 se do Durynska a do severního Bavorska přesunula či byla přesunuta část slovanských kmenů, které osídlili území až do povodí řek Naab, Regen, Regnitz a horní Mohan (tzv. nábští Srbové) (Menghin 1990, 96-9)". In other words, the "so-called nábští Srbové" were part of the Slavic tribes who settled up to the Naab, Regen, Regnitz and Upper Main river basins and after 531 partly moved to Thuringia and northern Bavaria.

That makes sense to what's written in the 7th century Chronicle of Fredegar. It mentions Dervan in 631, the "ruler of the people of the Surbi", as being subordinate to the Franks for a long time and then joining the Slavic union of Samo, and "Further reports of Fredegar imply that Dervan and his people lived to the east of the Saxon Saale", and "was fighting against Thuringia 631-634 and Dervan was finally defeated by duke Radulf, governor of Thuringia in 636". This is a confirmation that at least the Serbs/Sorbs were definetly not brifely in the region east of Thuringia, around the river Elbe.

HiveMindTerror
15-08-19, 04:19
Thats going in direction of HiveMindTerror saying Croat name "Ante" has something to do with Antes :laughing:

Hey that's something I read at some point by some historian. There are links to old Croats and Antes historically, as well as Sclavenians.

gyms
17-09-19, 17:48
What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) Culture?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf

Szigmund
07-10-19, 13:29
What are your toughts on Mygration's map? (especially to I2-L621 and I-S17250)
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

Dibran
08-10-19, 16:31
What are your toughts on Mygration's map? (especially to I2-L621 and I-S17250)
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

Relies on modern samples. Not to be taken seriously. Their hope is to eventually become accurate with more data. Right now, just for fun. For example R1a-M417 is theoretically computed as originating in North-East Germany based on modern convergence( https://phylogeographer.com/r-m417-origin-computed-as-ne-germany/).

However, the oldest M417 discovered is from Alexandria, Ukraine.

Piro Ilir
13-12-19, 16:08
Statistics! where are Slavs that haplo is present in majority! Statistics is science as far as I know!

That haplo is a majority only in Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Croats. In some extent whether in Serbs. In other nations of Slavic origin, I2a din is a minority, which is overlapped by R1a.

Piro Ilir
13-12-19, 16:39
Since the idea that I2a-CTS10228>Y3120 might not be Slavic keeps coming back, I am posting a summary of what the current data tells about it's origins and arrival to the Balkans.

Ancient DNA:
1- The earliest I2a-CTS10228 found so far is a Polish 9th cent I-S17250. It's closest relative on the YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A16681/) is from Ukraine.
2- I2a is absent in a 5th-6th cent cemetery in Hungary (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4). This was a Longobard cemetery in use during and after the Germanic migrations but before the Slavic ones. Small sample (21) but there were several Germanic lines, and even a few more southern ones, but no I2a.

Modern DNA:
1- SNP diversity
As can be seen on YFull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/). Out of 5 major I-Y3120 branches:
-2 are only found in in Eastern Europe (Y3120* & Y4460) -tmrca 2200 for Y4460
-1 is most diverse in Greece, secondly in Eastern Europe (Y18331) - tmrca 2200
-1 is pretty even in diversity between Eastern Europe & the Balkans (I-S17250) - tmrca 1800
-1 is more diverse in the Balkans, secondly in Eastern E. with MRCA equal/close to the whole branch (I-Z17855) -tmrca 1600

So Eastern Europe currently has more branches, more diversity within them, and more distant MRCAs.

2- STR diversity
It has been calculated (here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bUIW1YACgZYlJGZWlNd25xTkU/view), p.26) that haplotypes with:
- DYS448=19 (I2a-DinSouth) are most diverse in the Poland-Belarus area
- DYS448=20 (I2a-DinNorth) are most diverse in Ukraine


To summarize, current data suggest a huge expansion out of Eastern Europe which reached the Balkans no earlier than the 5-6th century CE.

That's pretty clear. I'm just questioning, if I2a1 spread with the early Slavs, then why it peaks in southslavs and not in east slavs or in west Slavs ?! In East and west Slavs is prevalent the R1a while at the South Slavics prevails I2a1.

Piro Ilir
13-12-19, 16:43
I gave ample evidence that I-Y3120 expanded out of Eastern Europe. I was not saying that every single line was spread by Slavs, but the overwhelming majority probably was, and the great expansion experienced by this branch was first and foremost due to the Slavic expansion and migration. Not everything is already set in stone, but I presented the likeliest scenario with the current data.

You raised a lot of questions but gave no alternative explanations. Yes, the ethnic origins of Y18331 may still be debated, but it probably started in Eastern Europe too.

[QUOTE=Ralphie Boy;571610]Why are all the Y18331 East Europeans Jewish males and not “indigenous” people? Jews migrated to East Europe./QUOTE]

If you believe that the Y18331 in Eastern Europe is due to a Jewish migration, how do you explain the absence of this branch in the Middle East, or wherever you think these Jewish people moved from? Right now, it seems more likely that Y23115 started in Eastern Europe and was then spread by the descendants of a person or family who converted to Judaism there.

That's right too. Judaism is a religion. Anyone may be converted at one point, especially now days

Kelmendasi
13-12-19, 20:08
What is the main haplogroup of Cucuteni-Trypillian (Tripolye) Culture?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture/page3)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135616.full.pdf
So far, it seems that the males of this culture were predominantly G-L43, though there were some other haplos such as E-M78.

aDNA from the Cucuteni-Trypillian Culture:
1) I1926 - G2a2b2a
2) I1927 - G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1
3) I2110 - G2a2b2a
4) I3151 - E-M78

I have seen I3151 being classified as E-Z830+ though I am unsure as to how accurate this classification is. Z830 is ancestral to M123 which is primarily found in the Middle East.

Kelmendasi
13-12-19, 20:10
That's pretty clear. I'm just questioning, if I2a1 spread with the early Slavs, then why it peaks in southslavs and not in east slavs or in west Slavs ?! In East and west Slavs is prevalent the R1a while at the South Slavics prevails I2a1.
This has been explained many times. I-CTS10228 in modern day South Slavic peoples went through founder effects which increased its frequency. What matters most is diversity and basal diversity, this is low in South Slavs and higher in East and West Slavs.

Vlad82
05-01-20, 15:34
ANALYSIS OF HUMAN SKELETAL REMAINS FROM ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES IN BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336313137_PREDICTION_OF_Y_HAPLOGROUP_IN_ANALYSIS_O F_HUMAN_SKELETAL_REMAINS_FROM_ARCHAEOLOGICAL_SITES _IN_BOSNIA_AND_HERZEGOVINA)

DNA analysis of medieval Bosnians from 14. or 15. century, all samples are I2a1b (very likely majority are PH908) except one R1a.
Unfortunately, I did not find any data about number of tested samples and Y-STR haplotypes.
Koposici (https://www.slobodnaevropa.org/a/stecci-u-koposicima-otkrivaju-istinu-o-bosanskom-plemstvu/27128929.html) and Divičani (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9y7i35KIE)

Demetrios
18-01-20, 14:15
I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.

Kelmendasi
18-01-20, 20:16
I am not even close of having formed an opinion on the origin of I2a-Din in the Balkans, but has the Celtic possibility been addressed? I don't know, i am just asking. I personally voted for "Other" in the poll above.
Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0.

Demetrios
18-01-20, 22:04
Many have actually theorised that I2a-CTS10228 expanded into Eastern Europe with Celtic speakers based on the fact that CTS10228* has been found in France and Germany. It was then picked up by the Proto-Slavs. However, it is certain that CTS10228>Y3120 in the Balkans only arrived during the Early Medieval. This is clearly shown through TMRCA and the fact that no CTS10228+ aDNA has been found in the region. As for where it expanded from, evidence does suggest Eastern Europe due to diversity. A study from this year suggested Southeastern Poland as the area of expansion https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0.
Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece). TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.
11758
Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names).

Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png)
http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg (http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg)

Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting, http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909 (http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909). For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.

Kelmendasi
18-01-20, 22:27
Yeah, i had a somewhat similar view, with the only difference that i hypothesize I-CTS10228 to have entered the Balkans much earlier, with Celts such as the Volcae around 280 BCE, some of which entered Greece in what became known as the Celtic invasion of Greece (they reached Delphi), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece). TMRCA of I-Y3120's subclade, namely I-Y18331 which has the highest diversity in Greece, is placed at 100 BCE, and the only I-Y18331* is a Greek from Zakynthos. Of course the TMRCA of parent clade I-Y3120 being also 100 BCE, complicates things. But even if not 280 BCE, i still believe the entrance to be sometime in the late BCE. By the way, here is a map showing where the Celtic confederation of Volcae began from, which is very close to where the I-Y3120* Polish sample is placed.
11758
Furthermore, what i find equally interesting is that the exonym Vlach (and cognate Wallachia) were originally used to describe romanized Celts, and its etymologically connected with the aforementioned Volcae, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs#Etymology_and_names).

Even the aforementioned I-Y3120* sample which is from Podkarpackie Voivodeship (southern Poland) falls within the regional expansion of the Celts. Here are a number of maps which show their expansion all the way till Ukraine, and here is some more information of Celtic presence in Poland, which begins at approximately 400 BCE, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity#Celtic_peoples).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/fc/49/5afc49a02f13c56ac767aedd19c86480.jpg)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Celts.svg/719px-Celts.svg.png)
http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg (http://www.markfisherauthor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/map-1200bcCelts_c.jpg)

Last, here is an interesting article on the subject by Željko Musović which i found interesting, http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909 (http://www.genealogywise.com/m/blogpost?id=3463583:BlogPost:752909). For example he writes, "The carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over south-eastern and north-eastern/north-western Europe. But, the south-eastern Europe (from Croatia to Greece and Bulgaria) is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades (from Y3120 downwards) are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the (south-eastern) Balkans.", among other things. I personally wouldn't be speaking of a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2200-3800 years concerning south-eastern Europe since the available samples and their TMRCA do point to a late BCE arrival (in a Balkanic context), but it does show that I-Y3120 largely evolved in the Balkans during the last 2000 years. Again, i am not not even close to having formed an opinion and mainly sharing all these for some feedback.
The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.

MOESAN
18-01-20, 22:29
Surprising interpretations: sure, Celts make people to dream.

Demetrios
18-01-20, 23:33
The origin of I-Y18331 is pretty unclear as of now, an origin from Eastern Europe has been suggested due to the fact that this branch is also present in the Chuvash and Ashkenazi Jews. And its brother clades, under Y3120, reach highest diversity in Eastern Europe. Though it's possible that this specific branch migrated to the Balkans earlier than the Y3120 clades.

Samples don't really show an arrival of Y3120 into the Balkans during the late BCEs or that Y3120 clades primarily evolved in the Balkans. As can be seen on Y-Trees, Eastern European nations show the highest basal diversity of Y3120. Poland, Ukraine and Belarus especially have high diversities. There is also the fact that the Balkan samples (South Slavs, Albanians and Greeks) share common ancestors with West and East Slavs, who lived sometime during the Early Medieval. Take the major clades of S17250 and Z17855 where every member shares a common ancestor that lived ~2,000-1,500 years ago. Then there's also the fact that so far CTS10228+ aDNA has only come from Eastern Europe.

The only branch under CTS10228>Y3120 that may represent an earlier migration into the Balkans is Y18331.
Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

tiami
29-01-20, 16:02
So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

bained
27-02-20, 07:29
So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?
Welcome to my problem. All the people that are recorded disappear into the sea of "slavs". Various reasons are always given, as most common is that they were small band of elite and the good boys slavs were oppressed by them, until the elite died out and the slavs were all best friends. The whole "slav" thing was developed to fight germanisation in Austro-Hungary by the purest slavs - Imperial Russia. Later it was version 2.0 with communism. Don't worry, nothing makes sense with slavs, dont even bother.

ihype02
27-02-20, 12:03
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

Aspar
28-02-20, 11:09
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.
And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

Tutkun Arnaut
28-02-20, 12:30
And what does that have to do with the thread at all??
By the way, how could we know if the Albanians are native to their current habitat instead of Dacia for example?

have you seen Albanian people taking DNA tests through available DNA companies? If Albanians were Dacians should not the Romanians been genetically the closest group to Albanians? Have you not seen that Romania's are not the closet group to Albanians but Tuscan's and Greeks instead!? Is this the first time you read about genetics? Very naive question in your part!

torzio
28-02-20, 17:14
So scythians, sarmatians, alans, huns, avars, bulgars, goths etc etc none of them were slavs right? But slavs came to balkans from where? Where is their place of origin because they can't be any of those northern nomads. They became slavs on the road?

Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs

torzio
28-02-20, 17:21
Bronze Age Dalmatians diverge from the modern Slavic Dalmatians and plot near by Northern Italians who have a very limited amount of I2a-din.
And there is also the question: How do we know that non-Slavic southern genetic impact of South Slavs (Bulgarians for example) comes directly from ancient Balkanites? Some of it might be Anatolian etc.

you have no idea on how many different people settled in western balkans from iron-age dalmatian times to the gothic invasion of circa 400AD ............there are many races entered the area

Tutkun Arnaut
28-02-20, 17:54
Probably the genetic composition of populations changes little by little in each generation. In the absence of data about the genetic's of the ancestors of Romanians and Albanians over 2000 years ago, we can imagine many.

so has changed the composition of Greeks and Toscans but still they are our closest genetic people, Which means Albanians have nothing to do with Dacians

Ralphie Boy
02-03-20, 19:57
The Jewish and Balkan sub-branches of Y18331-A10959 separated an estimated 2,100 years ago, with no other people participating in the branches but Ashkenazi Jews in one branch and south Balkans people in the other. That is very intriguing to think about, where the MRCA could have lived at the time of separation.

Vlad82
02-04-20, 18:12
Ancient-DNA analysis of teeth and skeletal remains with utilization of miniSTR loci. (http://bit.ly/3dN5NUP)

In 4 samples from Prague-Břevnov dated in 12 century AD there are two I-CTS10228. Unfortunately, extraction of DYS448 was not successful for both samples, but according to DYS449 both samples should belong to I-PH908.


Kit Number
Paternal line info
Place
County
Country
Population/Ethnicity
n
Haplogroup
DYS393
DYS390
DYS19
DYS391
DYS385
DYS388
DYS389i
DYS392
DYS389ii
DYS459
DYS447
DYS437
DYS449
DYS438
DYS444
DYS481
DYS446


Zub 12
Ancient DNA 12 century AD
Brevnov
Prague
Czech Republic


I-PH908
13
24
16
11
14-15
13
13
11
30/31
8-10

15
30
10
10
31
13


Zub 15
Ancient DNA 12 century AD
Brevnov
Prague
Czech Republic


I-PH908
13
24

11
15-15
13
12
11
29
9-10
25
15
28
10
13
31
13


The second sample has unique value for DYS444=13
I do not know if it is possible to find some more info about cemetery in Brevnov.

Dalmat
05-04-20, 18:28
Slavs are taught they began on the border of modern Belarus and Ukraine in the forests and swamps of that area.................a slow union of many smaller tribes over many centuries
basically this
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Origin_slavs.svg
Romans have no records of slavs
Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

Szigmund
06-04-20, 06:39
Because Slavic is post Roman name, they could call them Celts,Gets, Alans, Scythians...etc what do they know?
The big difference between Slavs and other European populations is that Slavs gave themselves a name, while all others as we know them got their name from Romans as they were subjected, and since most ancient history was written by Romans Slavs seem to not exist in history, but thats just a bias, a fallacy.

I can make a good analogy with Germans, Germanic, its a Roman designation people of Germany got as they were subjected by Romans, and then lets say that never happen and we all know them by Deutsch, and there is no Roman record of Deutsch.
That means if Romans didn't conquered Germans they would be in same position as Slavs today, as we would have no records of Deutsch

This is the question of endonym and exonym, not Romans or not... For example the aformentioned "Celt" is a Greek name, not Roman (Latin). They called them Gaul/Gall.
For example, Germany called Allemagne in French, from the name of Germanic tribe Alleman.

And we also have late Roman names for Slavs, like Antes, Sclaveni or Vistula Veneti.

MOESAN
09-04-20, 16:46
That said, a big part of these "exonyms" are in fact local "endonyms', let 's not confuse everything. "Celt(os?)" is a Greek spelling for some local tribal Celtic name. The very question is that these "exonyms" or "exo-endonyms" reflect contacts and so gives some historical reality to some folks, spite they don't tell us too long about the self-identification and self-conscience of groups or affilied tribes or about their collective name if there was any.

Szigmund
13-04-20, 13:23
What is your toughts on Mygrations map?
It says about the the I-S17250 and its ancestors the following:
Funnelbeaker-> Baden -> Corded Ware -> Unetice -> Urnfield -> La Tene -> Roman Empire

So, I-S17250 can be considered as part of the La Tene culture?

Ralphie Boy
20-04-20, 01:10
Indeed, in the case of I-Y18331 we also have that single Chuvash sample and a number of Ashkenazim Jews. Although excluding the Chuvash sample, it is known that Ashkenazim Jews do autosomally cluster very close to Greeks, therefore this might be seen as a corroboration of the clade having formed in the Greek peninsula, namely around 100 BCE. This is also implied by the "Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes" paper you shared above. Another corroboration is that no Slavs seem to be under it, only non-Slavic populations.

As for I-Y3120*, indeed no samples except that Polish one. Regarding eastern European I-CTS10228+, are you referring to Polish samples? Probably you are right about the rest, though do take the time and read Željko's article. He does mention I-S17250 and I-Z17855 as well.

Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, thereabouts. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
1200612007
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:https://www.eupedia.com/24cadd06-684d-4655-9920-90e525d993a9



https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:https://www.eupedia.com/a0c07ade-6704-45fa-ac2e-a3a6a986a1a9

Yetos
20-04-20, 03:53
@ Ralphie boy
@ Demetrios

hm
could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?

Demetrios
20-04-20, 04:43
Based on SNP tracker models, it seems that Y18331 came to the south Balkans via the La Tene culture and Celts. One model has it coming to Roman Macedonia, going northeast and forming sub-branches, and coming down to Greece. The other has it also coming to Greece in the Imperial Roman era, but sooner. Both models seem to support that Y18331 came before and separately from Slavs.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/blob:https://www.eupedia.com/a0c07ade-6704-45fa-ac2e-a3a6a986a1a9
Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
https://i.ibb.co/4sTyM7s/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png

SNPTracker-migration
https://i.ibb.co/0cfbm2Q/SNPTracker-migration.jpg

SNPTracker-speed
https://i.ibb.co/c6JQzj2/SNPTracker-speed.jpg

All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece), but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis)) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika)) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?

Demetrios
20-04-20, 04:45
@ Ralphie boy
@ Demetrios

hm
could that Y18331 be from Vucedol to Ohrid known from archaiologists devastation?
I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

Ralphie Boy
20-04-20, 04:50
Nice tool, i was unaware of it. Here are some more images that relate to I-Y18831 exclusively (not subclades).

yDNA Path to I-Y18331
https://i.ibb.co/4sTyM7s/y-DNA-Path-to-I-Y18331.png

SNPTracker-migration
https://i.ibb.co/0cfbm2Q/SNPTracker-migration.jpg

SNPTracker-speed
https://i.ibb.co/c6JQzj2/SNPTracker-speed.jpg

All these would complement what i hypothesized above for the Celtic origin of the clade. Maybe not directly through the Celtic invasion of Greece (279 BCE), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Southeast_Europe#Invasions_of _Greece), but from subsequent Celtic settlements in the Balkans and Anatolia. The southernmost region the Celts reached was Delphi and the southernmost settlement they established was Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylis)) in a Balkanic context. There was also the tribe of Serdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi), that was living in the region of the modern-day capital of Bulgaria, namely Sofia. In fact, the Serdica district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdika)) of Sofia is named after them. Then there is also Galatia in an Anatolian context, where they established a number of settlements. Furthermore, we have a number of accounts that mention Celts working in the Greek world as mercenaries and bodyguards (even down in Egypt, making it the southernmost region they visited eventually, not settlement). The Celts of Anatolia were eventually Hellenized to the point they were called Hellenogalatai and Gallograeci, which would allow them to travel more freely in the Greek world without being discriminated like before. I personally think of the Celts from Tylis as a more probable source of the clade, bearing in mind that I-Y18331 is not very common in Anatolia to begin with.

What is the source of your image to the left?

The other image is from a different SNP tracker in the link below. It uses YFull results whereas the other one uses FTDNA, I think.

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

Yetos
20-04-20, 04:53
I don't understand your question. Can you elaborate?

According Giannopoulos and archaiology the GrecoBrygians came before 2500 BC from Vucedol to lake Ohrid
and from there went down to Mycaenae,

so could this Ydna I be part of them?