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rms2
08-10-11, 18:34
I was reading somewhere (wish I could recall where) that there is a genuine y-dna divide in the Low Countries between Flemings and Walloons. Apparently that divide is primarily between U106 (on the Flemish side) and U152 (on the Walloon side).

Is that true?

If so, can someone give me a reference to some evidence (an article or something)?

Thanks.

Maciamo
08-10-11, 23:39
It's hard to say since there is very little data about Wallonia at the moment. Based on the results from the Brabant Y-DNA Project + the commercial samples I have collected, there seem to be much bigger differences between Walloon provinces than between Flanders, France and Germany. This is almost certainly due to the low sample size (about 20 samples per province). So it's impossible to tell at the moment.

rms2
09-10-11, 00:00
I know I read an article or study somewhere that said there is actually a difference between Flemings and Walloons that boils down mainly to U106 versus U152, but I can't remember where I read it. I wish I had bookmarked it or downloaded it, but I didn't, and I can't seem to find it again.

Was I dreaming? :confused2:

rms2
09-10-11, 00:09
Here is something from Dienekes' blog, dated 30 Sept 2011:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/


Maarten H.D. Larmuseau et al.
The pattern of population genetic variation and allele frequencies within a species are unstable and are changing in time according to different evolutionary factors. For humans, it is possible to combine detailed patrilineal genealogical records with deep Y-chromosome genotyping to disentangle signals of historical population genetic structures due to the exponential increase of genetic genealogical data. To test this approach we studied the temporal pattern of the 'autochthonous' micro-geographical genetic structure in the region of Brabant in Belgium and The Netherlands (Northwest-Europe). Genealogical data of 881 individuals from Northwest-Europe were collected from which 634 family trees showed a residence within Brabant for at least one generation. The Y-chromosome genetic variation of the 634 participants was investigated using 110 Y-SNPs and 38 Y-STRs and linked to particular locations within Brabant on specific time periods based on genealogical records. Significant temporal variation in the Y-chromosome distribution was detected through a north-south gradient in the frequencies distribution of subhaplogroup R1b1b2a1 (R-U106), next to an opposite trend for R1b1b2a2g (R-152)[sic]. The gradient on R-U106 faded in time and became even totally invisible during the Industrial revolution in the first half of the 19th century. Therefore, genealogical data for at least 200 year are required to study small-scale 'autochthonous' population structure in Western-Europe.

Maybe that is what I was thinking of. That's from an up and coming paper to be presented at the "Comparing Ancient and Modern DNA Variability" conference to be held at Porto, Portugal, this coming 23-25 November:

http://www.mnhn.fr/mnhn/ecoanthropologie/Porto2011/Porto2011_program.html

Maciamo
09-10-11, 09:07
Here is something from Dienekes' blog, dated 30 Sept 2011:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/



Maybe that is what I was thinking of. That's from an up and coming paper to be presented at the "Comparing Ancient and Modern DNA Variability" conference to be held at Porto, Portugal, this coming 23-25 November:

http://www.mnhn.fr/mnhn/ecoanthropologie/Porto2011/Porto2011_program.html

That's the study of the Brabant Y-DNA Project I was telling you about. Their analysis is obviously wrong. I have previously reported the frequencies by province (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26032-Breakdown-of-Y-DNA-distribution-in-Belgium-by-province) and even created maps for R1b-S21/U106 and R1b-S28/U152. The highest and lowest frequencies for both haplogroups are to be found in Wallonia. The province of Hainaut and Luxembourg have respectively 31% and 40% of R1b-U106, more than anywhere in Flanders. R1b-S28 ranges from 0% in West Wallonia to 40% in East Wallonia. Even taking the results for all Wallonia, R1b-U106 is close to 22%, more than in some Flemish provinces and otherwise well into the Flemish average. Both in Wallonia and Flanders U106 peaks in the west (closer to the sea), and is lowest in the central provinces. I don't know where they are seeing and north-south gradient (although there is one within the Netherlands and between the Netherlands and Flanders).

Anyway, there are only 70 participants from Wallonia; that's not very scientific of them to try to deduce anything from such a tiny sample size, especially for a region with such a high surname diversity (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26112-How-many-samples-are-statistically-significant&p=383063&viewfull=1#post383063). According to my estimates, the minimum sample size needed to be statistically relevant for a place like Wallonia is 1000 samples (about 200 samples per province).

rms2
09-10-11, 13:14
From what I can see from the abstract, the researchers are making the case that the gradients are temporal, and that U106 moved south so that by the Industrial Revolution its gradient was undetectable. It is only by using genealogical data and going back in time that the north-south-U106/south-north-U152 gradients become detectable.

I think they might have been able to accomplish the same thing by comparing Flemings with Walloons.

Parafarne
30-07-17, 19:56
I dont think theres much difference overall between flanders and wallons, when you see overall results the haplogroups are well represented in all regions.for r1b-s21 its 25% for flanders, 22% in wallonia its quite uniform.