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Yetos
11-10-11, 17:42
Seems like that movement is taking bones and flesh, yet it is in embryo age and tries to make clear its believes,

the movement spread all over the world, and it might take a 3rd pole among Left and Rights, or Republicans and Democrats,

5270


the photo is in Boston USA were the movement has name occupy wallstreet,
http://occupywallst.org/states

the common of all thse people until today is the Banking system,


1rst of All?
why a state that makes and makes money and have a MINT is forced to take Loans from privateers and Bankers?
have you ever thought why?

2nd
Why in cases like Greece and Proton Bank and other areas, people that pay taxes , even people who live bellow the limit of poverty have to pay taxes to save Banks?
have you ever thought why?

3rd
in the theory of moving Capitals of Chigaco,
Why a Banker has the right to move the capitals to another country and not the people,
Have you ever thought why?

4rth
why a poor Slovakian who lives in Mountains has to pay to save a Greek corrupted Banker?

5th?
why the politicians rulling class saves the Banks and do nothing to Help the People?

etc?

Gentleman your thoughts

Mzungu mchagga
11-10-11, 20:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

LeBrok
12-10-11, 05:34
Sweet, it's very educational, hehe. Great find.

Yetos
13-10-11, 00:01
Thomson Reuters ASSET4

the money that take a chief advisor of a corporation is 142/1 the salary of a worker
in Britain 69/1
Sweden 34/1

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

today the target of protesters was JPMORGAN CHASE and Jame Diamon,

Yetos
13-10-11, 22:31
And the story continous in Eu neighbor and 1 of the biggest powers in near east Turkey



http://webtv.hurriyet.com.tr/2/23033/0/1/imf-temsilcisine-yumurtali-saldiri.aspx

this time guest star IMF Μark Lewis


seems the future is with out Banks and private money Bullies and with out IMF,

remember that IMF always went after the debth, but now starts to go before the Depth, why?
maybe I am wondering to protect the Banks?


at a Greek govermental web page was found that

http://www.real.gr/filescalendar/2011/October/xaker%203.jpg

Cimmerianbloke
14-10-11, 00:13
The "indignated" are basically people who want to show their leaders they are angry and strongly disagree with the decisions the government has taken. Often because these "indignated" did not put these leaders into power. Actually, a strong percentage of "indignated" did not even bother to vote, or vote only occasionally. These people are only reaping the fruit of what they've seeded years ago, namely not bothering voting or voting as clients for certain parties or voting for a party not as a choice but to penalize the party in power at that time. Politics is about making a choice and bearing its consequences. IMO, revolutionaries have more balls than these "indignated" citizens. For those against violence, however, nothing stops them voting with their feet...
As for bankers, bailouts and government failure to fix the crisis, I see it as a proof as to where the real power lies...

Yetos
14-10-11, 01:32
According Reuters in the next 3-6 months all Bank of Europe must checked and recheck their stock and founds,

EBA European Banking Authority estimates that they are gonna need about 260 000 000 000 Billion E in the next year, either the Core Tier 1 drops

can someone imagine how much tax payers will pay to save Bankers?




As for bankers, bailouts and government failure to fix the crisis, I see it as a proof as to where the real power lies...


Goverments have MINT and Central Bank-treasury

but all parliament people need private Bankers to do their 'dirty works' due to Banking privacy

Have you ever thought when I have the Mint and the Central Bank-treasury I borrow from a private that sometimes is not even economically Healthy?

After he situation in Greece they found 20 000 000 000 E that belong to some and are connected with parties politician etc and 'cover the case'
they found 360 offshore non tax pay corporations that existed for more than 15 years some,
But they all had Banking accounts,
Banking privacy helps dirty politicians to do their dirty works.
majority of countries-states owns to some privateers? why?
even US the big one take loans, why? is Fort-Knox empty?

instead of deposit Money being the power of Banks, seems like we will have to pay taxes to save the bubble money, seems like the deposit money are not enough to do dirty works, some needs more,

I just wonder why I have to pay tax for a Bank when I already deposit money and they Handle them? so instead of taking earn and rates I will have to pay for money deposit???
they use my money, they are powerful and now people have to pay them extra? why?

Antigone
14-10-11, 07:46
The "indignated" are basically people who want to show their leaders they are angry and strongly disagree with the decisions the government has taken. Often because these "indignated" did not put these leaders into power. Actually, a strong percentage of "indignated" did not even bother to vote, or vote only occasionally. These people are only reaping the fruit of what they've seeded years ago, namely not bothering voting or voting as clients for certain parties or voting for a party not as a choice but to penalize the party in power at that time. Politics is about making a choice and bearing its consequences. IMO, revolutionaries have more balls than these "indignated" citizens. For those against violence, however, nothing stops them voting with their feet...
As for bankers, bailouts and government failure to fix the crisis, I see it as a proof as to where the real power lies...

People not voting is not a problem in Greece, the right to vote is taken very seriously by all with something like 97% of the population turning out on poll days. An election weekend is always made a long weekend (4 days) also to make it easy for people to travel home to electurates to ensure that they do vote.

In this case, it can be said that the indignants are partly responsible for the government's corruption because they elected them in the first place. Which is true to an extent, but people can only ever vote on promises and then entrust those elected to do the correct thing in return. Which consecutive governments here have not, in fact, they have gone to great lengths to cover up some fairly dirty dealings instead. So people are indignant partly because they have been betrayed, democracy is not an infallable system after all.

I totally agree with your last sentence.

Yetos
15-10-11, 16:02
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlpa97_15-october-united-for-global-change_news?start=64#from=embed


to give some numbers Greece has reached 38% unemployment,
the 46 of the above are educated more than Bachelor degree

yet instead of create jobs and push productivity, goverments save Banks,

the new plan is ready, foreign business man are coming to buy land to put sun collectors for electric power, and create no jobs of work,

this must stop all over the world,

SAVE PEOPLE, NOT BANKS,

GOVERMENTS ELECTED BY PEOPLE, THAT WORK WITH PEOPLE, FOR THE BETTER DAYS OF PEOPLE,

INSTEAD OF GOVERMENTS ELECTED BY MEDIA, WORK ALONE, FOR THE SHAKE OF BANKERS (AND THEIR OWN PROFIT)

LeBrok
15-10-11, 18:47
to give some numbers Greece has reached 38% unemployment,
the 46 of the above are educated more than Bachelor degree



So, what is stopping these brilliant young people from setting up businesses and employing people? That's your only way out off this mess.




yet instead of create jobs and push productivity, goverments save Banks,

That's your downfall, bud. Your government created too many jobs already. These jobs are not productive, and government had to borrow too much money to support these jobs. Do you want more of this?!

Mzungu mchagga
15-10-11, 19:59
So, what is stopping these brilliant young people from setting up businesses and employing people? That's your only way out off this mess.

Uhm...


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26930-Are-some-countries-doomed-to-high-unemployment-due-to-their-genetic-pool
:petrified:

Yetos
15-10-11, 20:05
So, what is stopping these brilliant young people from setting up businesses and employing people? That's your only way out off this mess.



That's your downfall, bud. Your government created too many jobs already. These jobs are not productive, and government had to borrow too much money to support these jobs. Do you want more of this?!


The banks do, and goverments,

even to pay taxes I must use a check that I deposit money to Banks so each Bank earns more,

and since you say and you refer them,
It is more bigger the problem, example

instead of spreading money to refresh the net cables with the fibers,
2 Big corporations,
1 was also in stock, then the manager ruined the comapny to create another,
the other was from the other party,

only 2 corporations, which run the time more than 2 years, over the expiry date, yet no fine to them,
which also belong to the mobile corporations, and set illegal antennas,

Both left 60% of workers unpaid,
Yet the project was over cost according the EU which compare the prices with other countries,

and they both create with promotion of same Banks, new corporations with the old mangers, took before 1 month a new project, which is again over cost, not the old workers which they own them money, but although they declare Bankrupt with old corporation, they still manage to take loan from same Banks,

in case you want names I can give but not in public
I don't want to advertise them,

the case is simple,

Banks put goverments to overtax people,
Goverments support Banks with peoples taxes,

So Banks do not want my 2 000 $ bank deposit,
since they take free and with no rate my 500 $ taxes,


and to make more simple,

JP MORGAN CHASE GAVE LOANS TO US GOVERMENT WITH RATE

US GOVERMENT SUPPORT JP MORGAN CHASE WITH OUT RATIO WHY?

EU GOVERMENTS ARE ABOUT TO GIVE 860 BILLION E TO BANKS
WHY THEY DO NOT ASK SAME RATIO THAT THESE BANKS WHEN THEY LOAN GOVERMENTS????


the case is a set up case

privateers gave loans with rate to goverments,
privateers make money and gave 'gifts' to politician,

People realize that and drow their deposits,

now politicians give 'gifts' to Banks without ratio,
why?

make your thoughts and get your resut

why for example in Greece goverments took money from banks and in 2008 they gave money to banks but not as a loan? with out rate?

why in 2011 unemployment people will pay million of E to save a corrupted bank like Proton, and all these without rate?

JUST ASK YOUR SELF WHO IS THE jork?

The BANK THE GIVES MONEY WITH RATE
OR SOMEONE WHO PAYS TAXES, GIVES MONEY TO A BANK WITHOUT RATE?

like all west goverments do.

just consider what Aristophanes or shakespeare could write about our times,

whatever, ancient greeks used a moto,

Χαλεπον αρχεσθαι υπο χρειονος

meaning : It is humiliating to be ruled by cheap-bad-worst (greed) people.

seems like modern goverments are full of Bank lackeys
who can not say YES WE WILL SUPPORT BANKS BUT WITH RATE AS THEY DO
but say, Yes we will put more taxes, and cut working places, in order to save Banks,

How pittifull

besides how sure we are the ex minister of greece in 1998 took a loan from Goldman sachs in order to achieve Eurozone, and not to help the profit of Goldman sachs?
may I remind that the above loan was hidden for 8 yeras from Greek parliament,

and I repeat,
I have the MINT, I have the TREASURY,
why I have to take loans from a privateer banker?
and why I have to support him with no rate Loans

Cimmerianbloke
16-10-11, 00:00
My 2 cents; the blame lies on the population at least as much as on the government. The one way out is a general strike, a default and put pressure on the EU, I mean Nicolas and Angela to restructure the debt into something bearable. New elections, and a RIGHT-wing government. Maybe then, the country would have a chance to get back to normal in, let's say, 50 years. In case it doesn't work, there's Bono...

LeBrok
16-10-11, 00:09
Uhm...


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26930-Are-some-countries-doomed-to-high-unemployment-due-to-their-genetic-pool
:petrified:

I believe I didn't ask myself about my opinion. :)

Yetos
16-10-11, 00:24
My 2 cents; the blame lies on the population at least as much as on the government. The one way out is a general strike, a default and put pressure on the EU, I mean Nicolas and Angela to restructure the debt into something bearable. New elections, and a RIGHT-wing government. Maybe then, the country would have a chance to get back to normal in, let's say, 50 years. In case it doesn't work, there's Bono...


that is the point,
we do not eat the bate, we see the hook

I believe you also see it,

Left and right or capitalism and communism or rebublick vs democrats is the same,

a division work, that we believe we find solution, and the other part will bring justiness good times etc

Indignados, don't eat that bate, cause they see the hook

they know that who ever comes the status will be the same,
the only solution is to bring real democracy, justice and truth, transparency, etc

the problem is the old term FREE WORLD, TODAY IS IN CHAINS, OF BANKERS,
even goverments wears the chains,

the things you see or say is that, another person less trouble, change of faces calms people,
well that is also the believe of bankers, and their media,

but the truth is that it is nothing more than διαιρειν και βασιλευειν (divide and conquer)
so this not the solution cause problem still remains,

Solution is how to build the world in 21 century so to have more real democracy, less crime, and less corruption,
Globalization of Bankers, industry and commerce,
Multi national corporations stronger than countries,
then globalization of crisis, globalization of unfair, globalization of troubles,
Multi-national resist people organizations,

LeBrok
16-10-11, 02:47
they know that who ever comes the status will be the same,
the only solution is to bring real democracy, justice and truth, transparency, etc


What is "real democracy"? How do you implement it? For now I hear many noble words about beautiful future, and no plan how to get there. Give me step by step how to get there.



Multi national corporations stronger than countries,

Few examples of corporations running countries would be great to prove your point.



globalization of crisis, globalization of unfair, globalization of troubles,

There is not much globalization in Africa, but did you see chronic crises, unfair and troubles there?
I'm pretty sure you would pick crises in Greece every day than to live in most prosperous country in Africa.



Multi-national resist people organizations,

Can you be more cryptic than this?




Indignados, don't eat that bate, cause they see the hook



The hook is to pull you out off the swamp into clean water...

LeBrok
16-10-11, 03:06
JP MORGAN CHASE GAVE LOANS TO US GOVERMENT WITH RATE

US GOVERMENT SUPPORT JP MORGAN CHASE WITH OUT RATIO WHY?

EU GOVERMENTS ARE ABOUT TO GIVE 860 BILLION E TO BANKS
WHY THEY DO NOT ASK SAME RATIO THAT THESE BANKS WHEN THEY LOAN GOVERMENTS????






JPMorgan said it had returned $25 billion, with interest, to the government — money that the bank’s chief executive, Jamie Dimon, has said it never needed in the first place. ...
...Taxpayers received dividends on their investment in these banks. In the case of JPMorgan, the total dividends amounted to about $795 million, JPMorgan said Wednesday. Goldman said it paid a one-time dividend of $425 million on its preferred stock.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/jpmorgan-repays-treasury-as-tarp-exits-continue/


Is this the "Rate, Ratio" you're talking about?

LeBrok
16-10-11, 03:54
besides how sure we are the ex minister of greece in 1998 took a loan from Goldman sachs in order to achieve Eurozone, and not to help the profit of Goldman sachs?
may I remind that the above loan was hidden for 8 yeras from Greek parliament,


The inner working of government should be transparent and audited by independent institutions regularly, possibly by two different institutions.



I have the MINT, I have the TREASURY,
why I have to take loans from a privateer banker?
and why I have to support him with no rate Loans



It was tried by communist countries of eastern block. It didn't work!

Yetos
16-10-11, 08:50
The inner working of government should be transparent and audited by independent institutions regularly, possibly by two different institutions.



It was tried by communist countries of eastern block. It didn't work!



from the first answer I see that you are near the movement,
the more you think and informed the more you will like it,

to the second part let me remind you the ideologigal argues of Kropotkin with rest, and that banks enter behind Iron curtain after 1960, I think Chruchev's time,
remember that ex-communist status was a dictatorship,
ideological was a dictatorship of working class,
the truth is that it was a dictatorship of by a nomen-class the party,
if you believe that communists were democratic then you sure are wrong,
the later documents show a lot of behind scenes acts and works,
ex-communism was nothing else than libya or Syria etc,

Stalin in order to survive he invented fake traitors he slain many, or send them in gullang

modern capitalism in order to save banks, it kills people,
Bankers want you to be like china, to work all day and for reward they will give you a cup of rice and a plastic pair of boots.
behind the eonomical 'wonder' of china do you know how people live in areas forbiden to go ?

and a question,
Do you believe that is was Banks and stocks that knock out communism?

Yetos
17-10-11, 14:04
semms like the thread is dialogue among me and Le Brok,

the bellow is re-translation from a greek post translated by an English one,

it is by a guy named Slavoi Zizek (excuse spelling it is translated the name)

''Communism is a system that collapse in 80-90, but communists still hhave power and control, in most of their countries
But the paradox is that the most success Capitalism is at communistic China,''

I am sure that no one can't deny this,

remember debate and discuss helps people to be informed and opens minds,

διαλεκτικη μητηρ παιδαγωγησεως
mother of education is discuss,

Cimmerianbloke
17-10-11, 22:34
You're not completely wrong, Yetos, but you have to be fair. China plays the capitalist card abroad, but it is not a democracy, and it is still a dictature at home. We can say, with a hint of irony, that the Chinese government has "the best of both worlds". I can imagine what would happen in Pekin if workers don't show up for work and organize a sit-in instead. I am old enough to remember Tien-An-Men...

Yetos
17-10-11, 23:57
yes lets coplete the word,
how may capitalistic corporations, and how many bankers send money there,

besides, do you know if some ecological international laws exist there?
the 2 post poluted cities in the world are in ex USSR where the old status in order to create cheap cost did not care,
so from the tires of trucks huge areas are polluted by Pb from the mines,


so in order Capitalism to get more profir the theory say
drop cost and sell high,
I think there can be no problem in a hard communistic status that is governed by a dictatorship of a party,
so the crisis, could it be because some capitals get a marriage with some communistic dictators?

the most exellent example is before few days when some from Forbes list enter the communist party,
someone with 7 billion property if I am correct,

so the expirement have succed,
the old system that kick down European communism, in theory the Banking system
today is collapsing the west,
in future if that system survives, in my opinion people will work all day, and will say thank you master if they are granded with a cup of rice or a piece of bread,

we must find a new system, away from banking system,

remember presidents are elected, Bankers not

we must stop moving in the linear right or left, cause capitalism got unite with communism,
that means either a Global goverment, and a global system under the Bankers-rulling parties,
either a new exit, a new pole of turning,
we must pass to 2 dimensions, instead of the old linear,

I also remember the Tien an men.

the crisis is because Bankers, in order to earn more they want to drop the cost of production,
and the most easy way, is to create a crisis of unemployment, and then hire with half pay,
and overpass laws about pollution,

LeBrok
18-10-11, 06:39
the crisis is because Bankers, in order to earn more they want to drop the cost of production,
and the most easy way, is to create a crisis of unemployment,

This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.
Banks lend you money, to help you grow your business. For this you agree to pay it back with interest. It is in bank interest that your business is successful. If you are not successful and go bankrupt, then banks don't make money, they actually lose money with bad business.
Banks also lend money to individuals. Why would banks wanted you to get fired from work? If you lose your job you won’t be able to pay back your loans and banks lose money on it. It doesn't make sense.
Actually cost of production is rising in China. This is a normal way when country gets developed.

Capitalism is not about to die. Capitalism is at least 300 years old. It wasn't formulated and invented by a scientist or politician way back. It happened naturally and gradually thanks to new technologies, machines, engines, faster production of goods, and grew slowly from humble beginning of first manufacturing in GB. Later it evolved through couple of hundreds of years, in what we call free market capitalism. It started benefiting nations so much that it killed feudalism with its strong backbone of hereditary rights. It showed socialism how socialism was unproductive, backward and unsustainable. In result, socialism was abandoned around the world. In comparison socialism was invented by philosophers and politicians, experimented against will of majorities, and eventually failed.
Capitalism is an evolutionary system that adapted itself to human nature. That's why it works, and the other production systems failed.
What we don't like most about capitalism is that capitalism has phases. Phase of growth known as economic boom, and phase of downturn that we call economic crises. These two phases are actually what make capitalism work. Economic crisis is the most important one for its success. Crisis weeds out bad and unproductive businesses. Businesses that survive are the once that were good and prosperous. Eventually it rewards every person in the country, businesses as well as people. One might compare capitalism to nature and natural selection, survival of the fittest. That’s why it worked 200 years ago and it works now.
So, we have another recession. Nothing new, it’s just a little different than other recessions, but they all differ somewhat. We’ll fix finances, slap few improved regulations, and life goes on…capitalism all the way.
Who will hate it, and tries their own economical model, will fail sooner or later and come back to the best economic system we have so far.
So what that it is not perfect, so are we, people. At least capitalism has ability to adapt quickly to changing environments and capricious human nature.

Yetos
18-10-11, 15:55
This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.
Banks lend you money, to help you grow your business. For this you agree to pay it back with interest. It is in bank interest that your business is successful. If you are not successful and go bankrupt, then banks don't make money, they actually lose money with bad business.
Banks also lend money to individuals. Why would banks wanted you to get fired from work? If you lose your job you won’t be able to pay back your loans and banks lose money on it. It doesn't make sense.
Actually cost of production is rising in China. This is a normal way when country gets developed.

Capitalism is not about to die. Capitalism is at least 300 years old. It wasn't formulated and invented by a scientist or politician way back. It happened naturally and gradually thanks to new technologies, machines, engines, faster production of goods, and grew slowly from humble beginning of first manufacturing in GB. Later it evolved through couple of hundreds of years, in what we call free market capitalism. It started benefiting nations so much that it killed feudalism with its strong backbone of hereditary rights. It showed socialism how socialism was unproductive, backward and unsustainable. In result, socialism was abandoned around the world. In comparison socialism was invented by philosophers and politicians, experimented against will of majorities, and eventually failed.
Capitalism is an evolutionary system that adapted itself to human nature. That's why it works, and the other production systems failed.
What we don't like most about capitalism is that capitalism has phases. Phase of growth known as economic boom, and phase of downturn that we call economic crises. These two phases are actually what make capitalism work. Economic crisis is the most important one for its success. Crisis weeds out bad and unproductive businesses. Businesses that survive are the once that were good and prosperous. Eventually it rewards every person in the country, businesses as well as people. One might compare capitalism to nature and natural selection, survival of the fittest. That’s why it worked 200 years ago and it works now.
So, we have another recession. Nothing new, it’s just a little different than other recessions, but they all differ somewhat. We’ll fix finances, slap few improved regulations, and life goes on…capitalism all the way.
Who will hate it, and tries their own economical model, will fail sooner or later and come back to the best economic system we have so far.
So what that it is not perfect, so are we, people. At least capitalism has ability to adapt quickly to changing environments and capricious human nature.


hmmm interesting view,

lets take one by one,

if banks earn so much at the crisis time? then why both US and EU agree to support banks?
why they both raise taxes to give money to banks?

2nd

Capitalism is the philological word of a well studied method of economy based on the co-existance of treasury and private treasuries,
behind modern capitalism are many philoshophers, among them my favorite Adam Smith,
so capitalism is also a well studied model and not a peoples model,
the problem of Capitalism is that market can not be handle, is merchant, it can not control merchant, or monopolize it,
also the late 40 years economologist who invented money from nothing creating bubbles
besides the modern marriage of Capitalism with communism might show the future of Free world, turning all the planet into china model, but instead of communist party to have Bankers party,

so the best for capitalism in Europe was not the last 100 years but the times of James Watt and the after 50 years,
that means with out the Caynes theory, uppon which Europe was build 1945-1990 the time Ussr collapse,
so with out the Caynes theory Capitalism will bring us back to early industrial ages when people left villages to go to work to the dirty polluted cities of england which were blak by the ashes of coal, leaving 1 full family in 1 room,
what is the difference of capitalism conditions with the communistic conditions, since maybe you lived in an ex-east block country?

if leave bankers free, soon bad forms of coal will run our machines, like lignite,
no filter in the chimneys to collect flying dust, no pollution and green future,
remember that chernobill heavy rain that drop in south balkans raise the lemphmas by 400 in N greece Albania Fyrom and south Serbia.
who will stop bankers if tomorow they say it costs to have electric lets return to coal?
just ask your shelf why some breathing diseases drop after the drop of usage of coal,

I am not against Capitalism, But I agree with Caynes,
The state must the referee among people and Capitals, among workers and employees, among merchants and bankers,

so creation of a 3rd pole is a must before we return human conditions to 1700,
before we have a new early industrial era,
before we run to the point to sell our kidneys to live our child,
or to live with phymatiosis,

Now about communist and its theories,
Just remember the ancient Greek word Koinon = Bank
Κοινον Αθηναιων = Treasury of Athens,
All ancient cities-states had a private and a common wealth,
and there are many cases of common wealth,
I am not a communist, but every connection of κοινοκτημοσυνη (common property) with the Dictatorship of ex USSR is just a myth,

I still like the old Caynes Theory upon which Europe was build,
but today the need to create another pole to ballance the capitalist-Communist alliance is a must,
either we are doomed to return in 1700 conditions


ABOUT STATISTICS,
they are numbers, check how was Human societies before Watt and few years after Watt,
Besides my personal believe is that as a Green thought is created and helped clean the cities and prove our living conditions, same way an Anti-Banking thought must be created,
before we become all food of Bankers,

I do not want the dillema to sell my kidney or to send my daughter to ....
Let a famous Banker like G Sorros to have it,

and there many ways,

1 is that 80% of Greeks and 40% of Europeans did
redraw deposits,
2 stop giving gifts to Banks payed by tax payers,

The bubble money must boom and toxins must moved away from our economies and our lives,
by supporting Banks these days we only support the gang-green to enter more our society's body.



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlqkrd_agresion-policial-a-chica-griega-en-el-banco-dexia-bruselas_news?start=24#from=embed

well if you see it you might say it is in Greece,
Yet is in the Heart of EU, Belgium and Dexia
the girl is working for the Dexia,

Such methods, I really wonder do we live in EU or in ex USSR
as you see the methods of modern capitalism are the same of ex-communism
same conditions,
at least in EU is a kick in face,
in ex USSR will be a exile to build a city in Siberia, and in China a shot in head as traitor of party,
the resume is one,
DO NOT PROTEST.
we control the goverments and the police

the carrot times are over,
donkey must whip rider before he did,
or the rider must get off donkey and either pull it, either find for new carrots
choose your act and pick your choices, :angry: :annoyed: :innocent::wary2: but not :petrified:


these are the best workers in the world,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqMHbSrZAKY&feature=related

Bankers want to be like one of them.
a cheap lean working machine, brained washed, to get more profit,
you do not need to live, a cup of rice, an aspirin,
you do not have the need for truth, Party or Banker knows it,

ElHorsto
18-10-11, 16:04
This is false. If this was true, the biggest banks would exist in Africa. Poor and unemployed people are not good for economy. The biggest money businesses and banks made during economic boom. Check the statistics.


Hi LeBrok!
I agree, people just being poor does not help. But the process of making them poor yields short-term profit. During a boom phase, the majority is earning wealth, because markets grow, new markets emerge, new products are being invented, credit is expanding etc. A crisis already occurs if the growth just approaches zero, e.g. when growth resources mentioned are increasingly exhausted. But the debt interests still need to be earned from and payed back to somewhere. So what if profit can not be maintained further just by growth? Costs must be reduced in order to survive in the short-term. Lets hope that yet new markets can be conquered (hopefully not by war), or great innovations are further discovered.

Yetos
19-10-11, 08:30
5293
The above is just a graph I found

for those who want analysis,

workers taxes raise from 10-40%
while corporations taxes drop from 30 to 10%

no further comment,



http://tvxs.gr/sites/default/files/article/2011/42/73239-4e9c29cda2c39.jpg


from the above maybe we must reconsider the thesis, about Eurozone

Maybe is not Greece Spain Portugal etc the problem, but Germany,

Maybe is Germany that must leave Eurozone and return to DMark with a ratio of

1DM=2 US$ =1,2 E

That will solve European crisis more easier and more peacefull,
than the forced, almost brutal measures that kill people or send them abroad,

Germany is the only economy that can hold a currency of >1.6 US $
while france is limited to 1.35 and the rest about 1-1,2 $

so release Germany's economy instead of pushing-pressing South Europe.

Yetos
19-10-11, 15:04
the bellow is from France a spot in tv

I think it is clear,

Until today IMF went after the bankrupt of the country,
Never before,

the first case that IMF went before the Boom is in Greece.

Lets see why.

seems like some bankers find a good way to avoid pay for work, and found cheap workers with the IMF methods,

enjoy THE MAN OF THE FUTURE,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWFSo8pjzsw&feature=player_embedded

Yetos
21-10-11, 02:42
for those who do not understand or do not know,

today Greece had the first Dead,

A protester who happened to be among the fight of kommunists and the anarchists

you the division still holds on,
the foght was for who the TV wil show as the Champion of Riot,
the Anarchist movement or the Communist Party striking force,

Dolcinians are outside the walls,
inside are both Inquisitor and Rich bishops and Bankers,
and the villagers are not satisfied anymore with carbage as reward
and we still arque on the old division of Left and right, and who makes bigger protest,

pittyfull cause soon we may hear that words again,

time 1:34


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WpO5WBpUVQ&feature=related

Yetos
21-10-11, 09:08
5294

no need to comment



the latest news give areests in NY
and among them Corneil West , proffesor in a University
and one of most famous of 'occupy wall street'

lets hope that is not a fiasco like DSK or the return of McCarty laws,

Yetos
25-10-11, 13:36
the bellow spot was censored and forbiten in Biennale


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlx2kz_yy-yyyyyyyyyyyy-spot-yyy-yyyyyyyy_creation#from=embed

Maciamo
25-10-11, 15:05
I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.

Yetos
26-10-11, 15:50
I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.


interesting View,

so modern economy is not a simple model of people but a complicated system that needs high maths etc and written by PHD

But the world is turning,

and the ones that were up might get down,

but in order to turn the wheel, you need good captains

so the ones who put the brake, why they put it?
and the ones who lead the vehicle where are they taking it?
and for how long the wheel will be stoped?

half generation, 1 -2 generations?


the photo is from US where occupy wall street was forced to dismiss by police who used even plastic bullets

http://www.real.gr/filescalendar/2011/October/AFE/AFE/1056.jpg

Cimmerianbloke
27-10-11, 01:53
These kids and ecologist/anarchist/whateverist bunch should rather get up and find a job. The first step to get the world back on its feet is getting the millions unemployed and stay-at-home-with-government-allowances to get back to work and start paying taxes. I am sick of these idiots thinking they know better than anyone what is better for our kids (cause as they shun any kind of responsabilities, they don't have any and live at mum's place). I suggest they do their bit for the environment and kill themselves.

Yetos
29-10-11, 22:18
in case some see it as a fun, or activism or new hippie movement

the problem of western world is not 'wall street' neither 'mein street'
neither 'berlin' or 'frankfurt'
etc

it is the hidden connections among mein street and wall street etc

it is the goverment for people or the goverment for bankers and them selves

Yetos
31-10-11, 19:03
according to ILO an international organization for labor the next year or 2 40 000 000 people will lose their jobs

how it has, we need 80 M work places, to reach the lvl of 2007 of % working
the latest econimical model is promising only 40 M places that means in 45 countries will be less 40 000 000 peole fired.

the estimation is among 118 countries that in 45 countries we fight have troubles,

so the one some call Arab spring maybe is not a spring,
But the first storms before winter,


well i did not find how many places in Europe but I quess many.

ACourvoisier
31-10-11, 19:52
I think that the indignants are just a bunch of people who have no clue how the economy works and protest in the hope that someone will explain to them what's going on. The problem is that even if specialists took the trouble to explain in detail the economic mechanism at work, most ordinary people wouldn't understand. That is really what is frustrating them.

Yes, I think this time do you seem to have a point of view that goes farer than the first degree, that is clear. But this is no sufficient in itself. In particular, this is as you was giving a psychology course, to make recover the health to a mentally ill man: the experience shows, that - unfortunately - it doesn't work.

That is not all: this is not necessarily the people, who are economically ill, but in a such case as the Greece: this is unfortunately the State, which cannot manage himself.
You omit the decadent management of the Greece, which seem to be clear. Greece has now benefit several gives (at the order of "10^9" euros), and is simply furthermore in the debt. That is not tolerable. There is the same family at the executive power since decades. It seems to be an ancient monarchy, (and in this one, I surely see no christian value but it is another subject).

And would you know what else ? -My taunt's husband - a greek man - told already twenty years ago:

<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>

Cimmerianbloke
04-11-11, 01:34
<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>


Heard that in Spain too, that when Franco was in power, things were easier...
On another hand, your remark on Christian values is a little bit weird for me, as the market is agnostic... Governments have to understand that social democracy is a thing of the past, we now have serious competition from emerging countries that will leave us to starve when all the businesses will be over there. They might be good enough to send us food parcel and humanitary aid though...

ACourvoisier
04-11-11, 02:18
Sorry - maybe am I not clever enough to do this - but this is not evident to follow what you want to mean.

I don't know what you are really thinking. The quotation of my "uncle" was only relevant for have been said by a greek man. Therefore, we can approve, or disaprove.

Please for the "christian values" refer to the correspondant topic (I wrote this only into braket; and "seeing no christian value here" don't mean the there are "anti-christian values", and not even that I would see there christian values).

About the emergence of the new economies, I don't see what is the direct link with this topic, knowing: "The mouvement of indigniants".

Yetos
04-11-11, 06:56
<<It was better when there was another dictature: "the Colonels's Greece".>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makronisos

yes in dictatorship might be things better cause everyone who protested went there,

the siberia of greece at 1960-70's


Heard that in Spain too, that when Franco was in power, things were easier...
On another hand, your remark on Christian values is a little bit weird for me, as the market is agnostic... Governments have to understand that social democracy is a thing of the past, we now have serious competition from emerging countries that will leave us to starve when all the businesses will be over there. They might be good enough to send us food parcel and humanitary aid though...
Social goverments may past to time,

but what i see is that at least in each country there is a socialistic party,

we might compare that public aid is about to be canceled, but from that to tax citizens to support banks is far,

The model of modern capitalism is known
is not the chinese model but the India model

the 'own' method,
ask how many people in India are born with depths and how many fathers sell their kidney's
but India is Hindu religion or muslim,
if you support that method to drop the cost of labour,
then prepare your self to change religion, become either a muslim either a hindu,

Since when a goverment is a 'salvation army'?

the word is clear, transparency among goverment and Banks,

the theory of Caynes that build Europe might seen alien to some,
but is European inheritage, and without it, Europe will be nothing more Europe,
and the one's who dream that will Europe back to james Watt ages, remember that your sons will might live there,

STOP the creation of Bubble money and toxic pappers,

if a family is collapsed today nobody cares,
But if a bank collapse all goverment try to support

Neo-liberian must have the same measures with people as they have with Banks,

Stop connections among Mein Street and wall street
etc Berlin and Frankurt

the old European moto of Kings, By God's mercy,
Later become My power is the LOVE of my people
today is what? my power is the Banks and the corporations?

ACourvoisier
04-11-11, 08:07
Ok, first, I believe to know that your user-command to stop "toxic papers" was adressed only to Cimmerianbloke, and it rassure me. Be knowing that making bold charachters has no efficience, for the reason that a constructed argumentation make automatically this "bold" in the mind of people.

So:
I believe to understand that your question:
"Since when a goverment is a 'salvation army'?"
was ironical.

If this is indeed so, so it seem to go in opposition with one another of your such questions, knowing:
"the old European moto of Kings, By God's mercy,
Later become My power is the LOVE of my people
today is what? my power is the Banks and the corporations? ".

In particular, I find this question very relevant;
but unfortunately, in the practice, we are forced to see that "My power is the Banks and corporations ?" seem - pratically - to be frequently true.
For the reason, which I would like to disapprove if could, that "Love" is not quantifiable, when the reason of money is quantifiable, indeed by this money itself.

But you seem to be right: this is a malediction, to which I have this time no answer.

Yetos
04-11-11, 08:32
the salvation army

a goverment is supposed to help people in many ways,

the package of food is indeed irony or tragedy

the problem of modern democracies is that they are elected by people, and remember them only at election times,
no it is not the Banks the power of a governor,
but the people, who elect him,
ancient Greeks had ostracism, something that must be added in modern also, at least my opinion,


if I follow Banking system and modern capitalism then one solution exist,
make my people either India and all are in depth, either china and all work for party,
view my post #27 the video.
at roman times governors married the army
at cold war times governors married the media
today they are married the bankers,

the problem of modern democracies is that politicians take loans from banks to make their advertisement
and then they pay by giving them privileges.

Banks must be tools in a modern society, and not the head

there is something I like to mention as 2 measures on how goverment think,
when Lehman brothers boom I read somewhere that the chief managers and the consuls etc will be paid but the simple worker will be not, but they take an aid by state,

if that is truth it is the most outreagous and disqusting think ever done,
and offcourse if the ruler accept is also a ...

in another post I wrote about Proton Bank in greece,
the owner 'took' >750 000 000 E
the owner went to be judged
the owner pays 51 000 000 E and the owner is free, mo trial,
ok
I starve, I steal a salami, if I return half will I be Free?

Cimmerianbloke
04-11-11, 22:21
Banks only provide the means for people to afford what they wish, whatever useless it is. Markets are based on supply and demand, and value is what a person is ready to pay to acquire something, regardless of the disproportion of the gap between real value and price. Banks do not put a gun on people's head to sign for a loan or a mortgage they cannot afford. If banks greed is part of the problem (and I agree with that) as people's foolishness also is, sitting in a park and bitching about banks and governments is not part of the solution. To those who do not see the links between the actual crisis and the emerging markets competition, changing the source of your information might be a good place to start. Try The Economist...

Yetos
04-11-11, 23:13
Banks only provide the means for people to afford what they wish, whatever useless it is. Markets are based on supply and demand, and value is what a person is ready to pay to acquire something, regardless of the disproportion of the gap between real value and price. Banks do not put a gun on people's head to sign for a loan or a mortgage they cannot afford. If banks greed is part of the problem (and I agree with that) as people's foolishness also is, sitting in a park and bitching about banks and governments is not part of the solution. To those who do not see the links between the actual crisis and the emerging markets competition, changing the source of your information might be a good place to start. Try The Economist...

Banks gather the people save and destroy them that is why the give interest,
Banks 'give' money to parties and politicians to avoid people's living and support their demands,
Bankers become richer with my money and same time they destroy my work,
Banks support illegal immigration and slave merchants cause they want cheaper workers,
Banks do not care for a state or a goverment, they can create another,
Banks own the media and they brain wash us that we are rich, while same time we born 1 kid or none cause we can afford to raise them,

soon Banks will ask you to pay for your savings,

Bank is a tool, yet today's world in order to say which country is best they show bank's not how people live,


My suggestion is in order to avoid the masters and slaves world, we need the 3 lvl middle class,
so in order to survive take back your savings from banks,
try to stop buying bubble money and toxic pappers and mainly stop consuming carbage,

Mzungu mchagga
04-11-11, 23:41
Have you already closed your bank account and withdrawn all your money?

Yetos
05-11-11, 00:07
Have you already closed your bank account and withdrawn all your money?

yes since 4 years

and I am angry cause goverment force me to pay 0.6 E extra cause some kinds of taxes and some rest must paid first in bank,

I keep only 300 E that is the limit so not to close the account

Yetos
05-11-11, 00:52
Ok, first, I believe to know that your user-command to stop "toxic papers" was adressed only to Cimmerianbloke, and it rassure me. Be knowing that making bold charachters has no efficience, for the reason that a constructed argumentation make automatically this "bold" in the mind of people.

So:
I believe to understand that your question:
"Since when a goverment is a 'salvation army'?"
was ironical.

If this is indeed so, so it seem to go in opposition with one another of your such questions, knowing:
"the old European moto of Kings, By God's mercy,
Later become My power is the LOVE of my people
today is what? my power is the Banks and the corporations? ".

In particular, I find this question very relevant;
but unfortunately, in the practice, we are forced to see that "My power is the Banks and corporations ?" seem - pratically - to be frequently true.
For the reason, which I would like to disapprove if could, that "Love" is not quantifiable, when the reason of money is quantifiable, indeed by this money itself.

But you seem to be right: this is a malediction, to which I have this time no answer.

the most recent is Libya
Kadafi had banks
kadafi had gold
kadafi had army
so kadafi was powerfull

was he?

ElHorsto
05-11-11, 02:42
the word is clear, transparency among goverment and Banks,

the theory of Caynes that build Europe might seen alien to some,
but is European inheritage, and without it, Europe will be nothing more Europe,
and the one's who dream that will Europe back to james Watt ages, remember that your sons will might live there,

STOP the creation of Bubble money and toxic pappers,

if a family is collapsed today nobody cares,
But if a bank collapse all goverment try to support

Neo-liberian must have the same measures with people as they have with Banks,

Although I agree with most of what you said, I just wonder somewhat whether Keynes theory might be at least partially responsible for exactly the problems you describe. It accumulates problems under the carpet. Besides Keynes strategy seems impossible in practice. How can government save money during boom and spend during recession, if nobody knows when the boom or recession is the real one? Its almost like predicting prices in the stock market. Maybe Keynes leads us even more into dependency of banks. However I'm not claiming to know a better solution. If someone can enlighten me, go for it.

Cimmerianbloke
05-11-11, 03:54
State-controlled banks are not the solution (states are up to their nose in debts, proof management is dodgy), savage liberalism has proved its limits. Time to be creative and think of a third way. As a matter of fact, banks were quite OK when there was a healthy degree of competition between them. The trouble started when instead of competing, banks merged and created monsters. Maybe limiting the amounts they can deal with would be a start.

Yetos
05-11-11, 12:14
Although I agree with most of what you said, I just wonder somewhat whether Keynes theory might be at least partially responsible for exactly the problems you describe. It accumulates problems under the carpet. Besides Keynes strategy seems impossible in practice. How can government save money during boom and spend during recession, if nobody knows when the boom or recession is the real one? Its almost like predicting prices in the stock market. Maybe Keynes leads us even more into dependency of banks. However I'm not claiming to know a better solution. If someone can enlighten me, go for it.

yes you are correct to that
But lets see Caynes model when was on practise,
mainly 45-80's
means that progress of Europe was done under caynes model,
when Caynes model start to treble or wraped 1rst at times of Seich Yamani at 1978-1983 and the oil crisis,
after that slowly Caynes is abandoned,

personally I believe that a return to more controled forms of market and moving Capitals is at least a temporary solution,
the other is middle class to avoid Banks and create smaller mechanisms,



State-controlled banks are not the solution (states are up to their nose in debts, proof management is dodgy), savage liberalism has proved its limits. Time to be creative and think of a third way. As a matter of fact, banks were quite OK when there was a healthy degree of competition between them. The trouble started when instead of competing, banks merged and created monsters. Maybe limiting the amounts they can deal with would be a start.

the big problem is this,

you are a poor but clever student and you could not afford your studies,
Bankers find you support you and let you work for them,
then they give you money, and they send you to politics
then they promote to be a high party member and when the times come they give you more money to help them be the one,

how Bank works,
I have a small but succed corporation that makes a product for example in a village,
Bank realize that I earn enough, Bank is greed, so what she does,
she gives loans to locals and foreigns, she spends money and create 3-4 simmilar corporations,
suddenly all are boomed cause market laws can not afford such productivity,
then what?
2 solutions
1 is I also take a loan from the bank
2 is that from 3-4 most declare boom survives 1 but the damage is done,

the price of my product has droped,
the product lost its name,
the production is under control of Bank
so the production cost is very cheap now and soon foreign workers (slave merchantry) work there,
the market buys the thing that is advertised, etc

so the result is that in 5 years the product become .....
All pass to bank
for 20-30 tears Bank will earn some wondering if they are enough to cover the money that spend

But the damage is done,
I become either a loan payer for my life,
either i had to declare bankrupt and be destroyed from middle,
in order to cheap costs foreigns migrate to area,
the few traditional workers lost their jobs or face another conditions of working,

consider instead of me to be a state,

for example the Olympic games,
in order to a minister be successfull or what ever the idea is to make Olympic games,

so what we do, we gather the state scientists and ask them how much it will cost, then we ask them how much we earn,

next is after the hidden among a state worker or a minister and a Banker,

for example if the ballance is possitive ok, I am sure that will earn, so push it and sometimes borrow with high interests
if the balance is negative then?
then i facultate numbers to bring to 0 and I take loans from the banks,

in both cases citizens and state loses but Bankers are earning,

that is what happened at Athens at least

comparing this with above that Bankers spend money in parties, finally the people will pay the damage with extra taxation etc

Yetos
14-11-11, 17:49
for those who care about common goods,

and do not want to be a bankers property

http://www.europeancommongoods.org/

Yetos
21-11-11, 01:25
The silence of the lamps

or lets put spices on our meat!!!


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmgl0n_protestors-pepper-sprayed_news?start=26#from=embed

Yetos
01-12-11, 13:28
well due to respect to the readers I will not give characteristics to the one who talks,


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmomvs_yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyy-yyy-yy-yy-yy-yyyyyyyyyyyyyy_news#from=embed

simply why is furious? and insulting?
this man spend 70 basic Greeks salaries in a month,
this man has 73 estates (flats houses storage) and according harash pays only 40 of them!!!
(like big hotel pay a max number if the rooms are many)
that man swim in public pool with out pay ticket,

that man is public target by indignants cause he tried to put responsibility of Depth to low class Greeks, and said together we 'eat' the loans money, while not a penny reach low class Greeks who may work 2 jobs,

and now the son of a Dictator is teaching about Democracy? naming αγανακτησμενοι as whatever,
why? cause Greeks fight them cash, the big problem of Greek market is cash,
it is estimated that only in september october about 16 billion cash were drawn by Banks,
august 2011 was 60 billion,
about 300 000 000 000 E deposits in Greek and other european Banks are drawn,
so that '....' guy can not make politic any more, he is of the one who where about to sold Greece,

when swiss Banks opens the accounts a sum of 600 000 000 000 greek E is about to be showed to whom belong, soon day by day Greek deposits are about the %0% that were in 2009 meaning problem of cash to both Europe and Greece, a max total of Greeks banks was about 800 000 000 000 E to 1 trillion,
but Greeks drow their money so a possible forced act to pass Banks under state control will give nothing since the only one who lose will be the 15% of the richest Greeks,
meaning that guy is pissed due to that,
the case of Lehman brothers will not pass in Greece, cause the one who produce it will win nothing,

for those who do not understand,

THE BEST WAY TO HIT THE 'MARKET' IS TO TAKE YOUR MONEY FROM THE BANKS

to those who do not Understand
BY CALLING INDIGNANTS as he does the only you manage is that we exist, and you make us stronger

it is unbelievable and create Hydrocephalus society to have 5-15% of state population to recycle the money production and produce bubble money, while their real production is 0

Stop the madness. modern society must not become as the Babel tower or the C American cultures

when put Banks to elite we put the 0% producers as top of society with a possible bend to Hydrocephalus societies

Yetos
05-12-11, 17:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwl7kulETiw&amp;feature=g-crec