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edao
22-10-11, 13:51
With only a week left for Germany and France to come up with a comprehensive solution to the Eurozone financial problems, do you think they will come up with drastic comprehensive measures to create stability and lead Europe onto the path of growth?

Some interesting links:

Collapse - youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyHIOg5aHk)

Zerohedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/contributing-editors)

BBC - Greek Bailout (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15414765)

Economist - Global Protests (http://www.economist.com/node/21533377?fsrc=scn/tw/te/ar/notquitetogether)

France - German rift delays bailout plan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDATyTN5r94&feature=feedu)

FT - 60% haircut on Greek debt (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/66bdcbc0-fc11-11e0-b1d8-00144feab49a.html#axzz1bGSPB7Wt)

Trichet on intergration (http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2011/html/sp111021.en.html)

Social Europe - recovery before reform (http://www.social-europe.eu/2011/10/recovery-before-reform/)

Maciamo
22-10-11, 14:00
My cynical point of view is that Germany has no interest in solving this matter quickly because worries about the euro's troubles is lowering its exchange rate, which is good for German exports. Germany could easily put an end to the crisis, so why else would they procrastinate like that ?

Yetos
22-10-11, 15:35
No

personally I believe that they created,

they put standars to E very high which many other countries could not follow,

Gavroche
22-10-11, 15:53
personally I believe that they created???

And what about the Greek gouvernement?

They didn't control their budget...

Yetos
22-10-11, 19:26
???

And what about the Greek gouvernement?

They didn't control their budget...


i do not want to say more about Greek goverment than this,

hidden loans, hidden members, foreign agents, who know psychology of crowds,

greece if E was about 1 $ could have many exports of agriculture and many currency via tourism,

strong E made Greece to accept 3 million immigrants at a population of 8 million, from which 66% came illegaly,
also created expensive tourism which send touriss and agents to other countries,
also drop the agricultural production, since importing was cheap than working,

the problem of greece is the politicians, well known cases o rotten ministers etc,

edao
24-10-11, 16:01
Sarkozy bluntly told Cameron: "You have lost a good opportunity to shut up."

I wish I could have seen that :laughing: The UK want none of the hassle of Europe but all the benefits. We don't want to deal the Euro-zone crisis, but we don't want the solutions to effect us negatively.

WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND TO EAT IT! :ramen:


Article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/23/cameron-sarkozy-euro-debt-crisis)

Gavroche
24-10-11, 16:37
Totally agree with you Edao :good_job:

I'm not a "Sarko-fan" but he is right here...

Cameron don't want to see the Tobin tax in his wonderfull London and in his "capitalism industry"...

Antigone
24-10-11, 16:41
Yes, I enjoyed Sarkozy's comment to Cameron too and thought it was about time someone said it to him!

Listening to the BBC this morning there was much discussion on whether Britain should leave the EU. I don't understand the reasoning behind those who are in favour of leaving especially when Europe is Britain's biggest trading partner. Surely it would be to Britain's advantage to have a say in the laws governing that trade than to pull out altogether and then be subject to trading laws etc in which Britain would not have any imput?

spongetaro
24-10-11, 20:11
Sarkozy bluntly told Cameron: "You have lost a good opportunity to shut up."

I wish I could have seen that :laughing: The UK want none of the hassle of Europe but all the benefits. We don't want to deal the Euro-zone crisis, but we don't want the solutions to effect us negatively.

WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND TO EAT IT! :ramen:


Article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/23/cameron-sarkozy-euro-debt-crisis)



There is a poll on the Guardian website: do you sympathise with Nicolas Sarkozy's "shut up" comment?

The results are: 78.2% yes
21.8% No

edao
24-10-11, 21:34
There is a poll on the Guardian website: do you sympathise with Nicolas Sarkozy's "shut up" comment?

The results are: 78.2% yes
21.8% No



HA! Brilliant, I hadn't seen that, everyone should vote it's only democratic after all :innocent:
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2011/oct/24/sarkozy-cameron-do-you-sympathise)

Yetos
24-10-11, 22:53
they are the last AAA,

soon France will leave the group of AAA,

then what? 4rth reich and E=2$?

all europe Germanic economical empire?

or France will take the rest countries ? and germany will be kick from Eurozone to DM and 1 DM=2 $ while 1 E=1 $

Brett142
25-10-11, 07:17
No the European Union/ the Eurozone will only work when the countries can put their differences aside and start to work as one nation. It's either all or nothing. What they are doing right now is just wandering somewhere in the middle and that isn't really working all too well right now is it?

edao
27-10-11, 10:41
Is any one convinced by the results of the summit this morning?

- 50% write-off of Greek debt
- Increase of the EFSF to 1 trn euros
- Slap in the face for Berlusconi

artilce (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15472547)

Yetos
11-11-11, 15:15
I was reading today about the mistake of Standard & Poors

Michel Barneux (or something like that spell)

' Wrong e-mail by S&P to customers just bring upside down markets, raising Francais to 3.48% and punch Euro '

As you see not even the AAA of France can escape the money vultures,

I wonder what will be done if another e-mail strikes the AAA of Germany since it is the only one that not been 'hit' yet,

the source is in Greek language, But I guess you can find it in local news,

http://tvxs.gr/news/kosmos/mparnie-poly-sobaro-lathos-tis-standard-poor-s

Spion Stirlitz
11-11-11, 17:14
A fundamental solution of the financial problems of the EU have to do with a sound economic logic, which is linked to competitiveness, which in turn is related to technology and monetary policies.

The truth is that simple mortals undestand very little of economy, either because...

(a.) They have not studied Economics themselves...

(b.) Because they are blinded by the neoliberal propaganda and desinformation that reached its peak in the previous years.

++++++++++++++++++++

However, I see that in this forums there are very few "market radicals". On the contrary, what I see here in Eupedia.com is mostly people that tries rationaly interpret what we see and do not waste their time in blaming blindly "scapegoats".

I don't know if some bad experiences in the Eurozone could be avoided in the immediate future.

However, I am sure that many politicians and honest economist saw long ago the economic trends and unbalances in some countries due to the Euro in some countries, and however they had not the authority and weight to be heard about it.

As Maciamo said: Who is thriving right now? The German balance of trade looks pretty good. Certainly outside the Eurozone, but much more, inside it. Obiously the current system goes in its favor and that is an incentive to leave the things as they are. I am not blaming Germany of purposedly doing harm. Much more, I believe that a solution has to be collective. I don't believe that the solution could come solely from France and Germany.

I do not blame the political class of countries like Italy or Greece, even when some defects on them are more visible with the crisis. But their capacity to take sovereign decissions on something as important as exchange rate, and therefore competitiveness, was limited.

But then "Why did they not warned aloud and clear what was happening since long ago?". Don't do they had advisors and experts that could see that coming?

I guess that their political capacity was also limited. As politicians they cannot fundamentally go against a deep and firmly convictions held by the global media, and the interests of world financial system, that with the time became "common sense".

Brainwashing.

In the long term, this experiences have to be taken into account by the people, that has to influence the politicians, who in their turn, should have the capacity to control the economy for the benefit of the population as a whole, and not just for the interests of some banking interests.

Regards.

Yetos
12-11-11, 01:05
No

personally I believe that they created,

they put standars to E very high which many other countries could not follow,

as a reply to my shelf on who is behind the Crisis and who earns


http://euobserver.com/19/114231

Germany has profited to the tune of €9 billion from the eurozone crisis over the past two years, an ING economist has calculated for EUobserver, as investors flock to "safe" but near zero interest rate bunds while southern euro-countries struggle with unsustainable rates.

"Interestingly, this is already more than the recently announced [German] tax relief of around €8 billion for 2013 and 2014. It almost looks as if the Greeks financed the little German tax reform,"

so it is the Germans who work for the Greeks But the Greeks who work for the Germans

Cimmerianbloke
13-11-11, 04:47
The problem, Yetos, is that the Greek, when they joined the EU and the Eurozone, started to believe they could live like the Germans. Being in the EU is not a guarantee of a thriving economy. It just allows governments to benefit (exploit?) from substantial structural aids to develop their economy. In case of Bulgary, and to a lesser extent, Greece as well (as well as a number of other members, I just take the most blatant exemples of mismanagement...), the funds have been squandered, not wisely invested or went into projects that did not benefit the whole of the population.
I am a little bit sick of reading the "blame Germany" excuse over and over again. Keep in mind that Merkel struggles to make sure the street doesn't get its way. If it were up to the German people (whom she is supposed to represent, by the way...), Greeks would not get a single cent from the EU again and would have to pay their due up to the last dime, even if it would take 1000 years and would beat the country back into the Middle Ages.
As for the article you mention, it is about people who wisely put their investment funds in Germany instead of riskier places. I can barely undertand why the shortcut to "Germany profits from the crisis". It all makes perfect sense to me. If I had millions, I would not invest in Greece now. I am sure even the Greeks don't...

zanipolo
13-11-11, 05:34
IMO, france and germany declare Financial war on EU countries that do not change their living and working ways/systems as what the Germans want.
Its far better for a nation to stay out of the euro currency like the UK and have some control over your nation.

It is far better for Greece and Italy to throw out the euro currency and let the germans and french wear the costs of following the americanization system of Banking.

In the end, all nations in the EU will be monetary slaves of the germans and french

Cimmerianbloke
13-11-11, 05:52
First of all, dropping the Euro would be a huge waste of resource and time that have been invested since the mid-nineties. Second, countries with a weak economy are very likely to be victims of their weak currency, and see their living standards drop dramatically, even fall prey to speculators and see their economy spiralling down. Being within the Eurozone was a guarantee of financial stability WITH BALANCED BOOKS. The 3% deficit threshold has been set for a reason. Weak economies could not realistically recover from overendebtment, as history now shows. Lafontaine wrote about the cicada and the ant some time ago. I bet it was not available in Greek... If Sarkozy and Merkel "declare financial war" on the PIGS, it's because they do not want to follow Berlusconi as the next victims of the debt crisis. They wanted us to have our little EU paradise, but that was forgetting that in the money world, there is no mercy for the weak and only the strongest survive...

zanipolo
13-11-11, 06:18
First of all, dropping the Euro would be a huge waste of resource and time that have been invested since the mid-nineties. Second, countries with a weak economy are very likely to be victims of their weak currency, and see their living standards drop dramatically, even fall prey to speculators and see their economy spiralling down. Being within the Eurozone was a guarantee of financial stability WITH BALANCED BOOKS. The 3% deficit threshold has been set for a reason. Weak economies could not realistically recover from overendebtment, as history now shows. Lafontaine wrote about the cicada and the ant some time ago. I bet it was not available in Greek... If Sarkozy and Merkel "declare financial war" on the PIGS, it's because they do not want to follow Berlusconi as the next victims of the debt crisis. They wanted us to have our little EU paradise, but that was forgetting that in the money world, there is no mercy for the weak and only the strongest survive...

First of all , I never voted for berlusconni, ever. Second , changing 1 man will not make a difference in Italy or greece.

do, you think the measures of changing the retiring age for women from 60 to 65 and men from 65 to 67 in the year 2026, will make an impact now.
Do you think raising vat from 20 to 21 % will also

meddling in other peoples issues
http://www.english.rfi.fr/economy/20111112-italian-fury-sarkozy-meddling-berlusconi-prepares-resign

The reason the germans want greece, italy and anyone else to stay in the EU is to save their own skins because they will go backrupt due to following the less prudent banking systems the same as the USA. They are up to their head in loans,
Italy should pull out of the currency, it will level the playing field in the EU

Balanced books - what do you mean, they allowed Greece in the EU , when the first president of the EU , Prodi fought hard against Germany and France to keep them out.

Italy only issue is the political system is wrong, will always be wrong and historical was always wrong. you cannot have a centralised government in politics today.

A nation can float its own currency and survive , it cannot do it in the EU, even if you are germany

Antigone
13-11-11, 08:55
I am a little bit sick of reading the "blame Germany" excuse over and over again. Keep in mind that Merkel struggles to make sure the street doesn't get its way. If it were up to the German people (whom she is supposed to represent, by the way...), Greeks would not get a single cent from the EU again and would have to pay their due up to the last dime, even if it would take 1000 years and would beat the country back into the Middle Ages.

Yes indeed, as I've said on another thread, I'm also sick of the blame game, which includes the "holier than thou" attitude of the Germans in this. Germany allowed Greece into the EU in full knowledge of it's loans etc and Germany has profited well and still continues to profit from Greece.

Off the top of my head, the Athens International airport is a German construction, the Rio Antirrio bridge spanning the Gulf of Corinth is a French construction, the Athens Metro is of both German and French contstruction plus German and French submarines, ships and jets etc supplied to the defense forces. Just to name a few and there is more but, please, enough of the hypocracy. A small amount of honesty from both sides in this mess would be so refreshing.

edao
13-11-11, 15:01
I think people are misled by thinking that devaluation of a currency is some kind of magic bullet. It would lead to lower living standards and while it might help an export led economy it's not going to help imports. The default of debt would be a financial bomb that would cripple the economy for years to come, who is going to invest in a isolated crippled country like Greece?

Everyone wants to blame the Euro, but its like being fat and blaming your trousers for being too small. Pretending that if you could change your trousers (the Euro) you could allow yourself to get fatter and not have to deal with the austerity of a diet to get you into better shape. People are pointing at the trousers blaming them for the problem when in fact it's the overeating which has caused the problem. There is no magic bullet here and those you bang on about dropping Greece from the Euro are offering no solutions, the only way out of this is going to be hard reforms.

Across Europe everyone is blaming their governments, but no one wants to accept that in truth it's us the people who are responsible. The Germans have a remarkable economy, probably the best in the world, even in a time of crisis they can afford to offer the people tax cuts. The German politicians and political system didn't appear by magic they are a product of their society and culture. Their kids have a bright future ahead because of what their people have done to get themselves ahead, the rest of Europe need to stop blaming governments and realise that everyone has a part to play, because the only thing going to lift Europe from the crisis is private sector growth. That growth is only going to come from dynamic individuals around Europe standing up and being counted by starting their own businesses, creating their own job paying into the tax system and growing to create more jobs. This can only come from the people, governments today are powerless without money.

Italians enabled Berlusconi to turn Italy into a joke, it took the international investment community to force him out, if I was Italian I wouldn't be angry with the politicians but the society that allowed him to prosper.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." Kennedy

Mzungu mchagga
13-11-11, 16:50
Sure! But I think it's a little late for that kind of advice. What can a Greek citizen do right now instead of protesting? In their place I'm not sure whether I would be in the mood or have the guts to create a business right now. Greeks are in some state of checkmate position, paralized, only able to watch helplessly the actions of their government.
Even if it sounds weird, but what I would recommend for the PIIGS countries as well as some others is to leave the Euro and European Union, uncouple their new currencies from Euro and Dollar and perhaps find a new coalition, after the Argentinian role model!

I wrote a few times that there is no ideal form of government, as it always has to match the mentality and culture of a certain country. Of course the same applies to economic systems! You can't impose an economic system on a country that obviously has different needs and laws of economy.

edao
13-11-11, 17:18
You only have to look at the GDP per capita figures to see that what happened to Argentina would be catastrophic to Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)

If they want to be inline with countries like Lebanon, Botswana, Gabon, that's what's waiting for them by leaving the Euro.

Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

Biggest problem we all face is a lack of growth, in truth if there is magic bullet to this it's growth. As everyone can see we are forced into austerity across the board through necessity but no one has any idea how we create support for the private sector, most governments seem to just be in hope that human endeavour will win through in the end before financial collapse does.

The occupy movement is completely pointless they have no message they know something is wrong with the current system but don't understand it enough to offer a solution. So all they do is protest shouting fix the problem! The politicians don't listen because they know these people haven't got a clue what they are talking about, for the protests to be relevant they need a clear message or proposal. We want the Tobin Tax enforced now and just hammer home that message across the world, governments would soon take action just sitting about in tents moaning about banks just shows them to be idiots who are unemployed for a reason, go read a news paper!

Mzungu mchagga
13-11-11, 22:26
Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.


Certainly you know more about economics than I do (are you studying or employed in that field btw?).
Of course I hope that you are right with your assumptions. Moreover I hope that Greece will be able to keep that gdp ration/growth!

julia90
13-11-11, 23:51
I think no one has the magic wand to resolve this situation.. certainly the axe France-Germany have failed to save Greece, economists think that with few europen funds given at the eraly signal of greek crisis could have saved greeks.. now the situation there is dramatic.. and i think we should expect soon a migration wave of greeks in other european countries.. if they don't migrate elsewhere like usa or australia.

greeks have their responsibilities, but germany and france could have saved the situation

....solidarity with Greek people...

julia90
14-11-11, 00:06
Italians enabled Berlusconi to turn Italy into a joke, it took the international investment community to force him out, if I was Italian I wouldn't be angry with the politicians but the society that allowed him to prosper.

It's the contrary.. it's the italian "Magistratura", that abused his power, and created a clima of persecution.. .
We should thank Magistratura, that stopped the government reforms, attacking continously a person, and don't making him work for the government.. you don't have the idea of how many billions the italian state spended for the magistratura attacks on berlusconi...this were billions throwed off for no use let alone that of unjustified personal persecution.

And also Magistratura is lined up in the part of the italian left, working in favour of leftists parties.. a so undemocratic exercise of power..

and berlusconi wasn't a Tirant.. he was legitemately voted by the majority .

You are Scottish.. i thoght Scottish people were Liberals and democratic... not for the oligarchy of Magistratura, bureocracy, etc etc..


I can explain you better the clima that was created in italy:
the leftists always told to journals berlusconi was uncapable, and that he had to resign himselves, because with him italy would collapse..

than an example: if a person goes out and start tso say that his wife is a ***** continuosly to everybody (and that thing is completely false), than everybody at the end would start to think his wife is a ***** even if at the beginning they didn't think so...
The same situation is in italy, leftists journals continued to tell negative things about our governement, instead of promoting it, because it was runned by berlusconi.., the truth is that our financial situation isn't bad than that of most euro countries including france... the difference is that french politicians aren't selfdestruptive...
the market plungers start to belive italian situation is very bad because all of the leftists journals selfdestruption.. so they dond't confide in italy

Cimmerianbloke
14-11-11, 04:46
Julia, the Italian left was always after Berlusconi, but he was not guilty enough, or maybe too clever to get caught. The guy owns half of the country and behaved like Mel Brooks' Louis XVI in History of the World (It's good to be the king...). He surely was a European (as well as a national) embarassment, but he could barely have been suspected of getting money off the taxpayer to line his own pockets, like, well, everywhere else.
Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was. The problem with Berlusconi was that he did not bow to the bankers nor Merkozy (he's richer than them...), and he had to go to let somebody more flexible to take the calls from Berl.., sorry, Brussels.
On your previous remark, concerning how Greece could have been salvaged, I have doubts. First because the bankers want their money back, and the bailouts were only given out with certain conditions (that we might discover in a few years). Secondly, 2012 is a very important year in Europe, elections are taking place in France, and Sarkozy does not want to upset the French any further, his campaign is at stake. Just as in 40, nobody wanted a war over the Sudetenland, no one will commit political suicide over Greece. Merkel's party already has a very bad record in local elections for the last 18 months, getting the Germans to make more efforts to keep Greece afloat would trigger a revolution. Now, as a solidarity gesture, you're welcome to send half your wages check to Athens, but I surely won't join you.

Cimmerianbloke
14-11-11, 05:07
You only have to look at the GDP per capita figures to see that what happened to Argentina would be catastrophic to Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)

If they want to be inline with countries like Lebanon, Botswana, Gabon, that's what's waiting for them by leaving the Euro.

Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

Biggest problem we all face is a lack of growth, in truth if there is magic bullet to this it's growth. As everyone can see we are forced into austerity across the board through necessity but no one has any idea how we create support for the private sector, most governments seem to just be in hope that human endeavour will win through in the end before financial collapse does.

The occupy movement is completely pointless they have no message they know something is wrong with the current system but don't understand it enough to offer a solution. So all they do is protest shouting fix the problem! The politicians don't listen because they know these people haven't got a clue what they are talking about, for the protests to be relevant they need a clear message or proposal. We want the Tobin Tax enforced now and just hammer home that message across the world, governments would soon take action just sitting about in tents moaning about banks just shows them to be idiots who are unemployed for a reason, go read a news paper!

There are solutions for Greece. First of all, it is a member of the Union, even though that doesn't help right now. On top of that, as a NATO member and having a strategic position on the continent, Greece can pull strings to get more clout from America.
My most important remark would be that if Greece would get out of the EU, it could save Spain and a relapse in Ireland, as well as Portugal. The whole of the EU would be relieved and would probably try to limitate the damage. A situation like in Argentina in 2001 is unlikely, even though the living standards would dramatically drop. Now the clever bit: if Greece can get some distance from the EU, it could change existing laws or create new ones to become a fiscal paradise and dump taxes that makes tourism not so attractive. I am thinking about alcool and tobacco, that would attract a substantial amount of tourist all year long into existing infrastructures. Dumping fuel taxes might bring some airlines to consider having a permanent base in Greece to benefit from low taxes on kerosene. There are hundreds of micro-solutions that would help Greece getting back on her feet, but the very tight EU legislation makes it impossible to assess.
As a preventive measure, I think the EU should consider keeping a Eurozone with strong economies in charge and the other, weaker and smaller economies as satellites. Having several strong countries leading a cooperational league might be not fair from an equity point of view but it is surely better than sitting at a roulette table with the bank gone bust...

Antigone
14-11-11, 08:06
I think no one has the magic wand to resolve this situation.. certainly the axe France-Germany have failed to save Greece, economists think that with few europen funds given at the eraly signal of greek crisis could have saved greeks.. now the situation there is dramatic.. and i think we should expect soon a migration wave of greeks in other european countries.. if they don't migrate elsewhere like usa or australia.

greeks have their responsibilities, but germany and france could have saved the situation

....solidarity with Greek people...

The migration wave of those leaving Greece began sometime ago, particularly amongst the university graduates who can't find positions. Australia have been advertising that they will take over 100,000 skilled workers so many are opting for there and Scandanavia is another place people are heading for. Haven't heard of any looking at the USA though, as the US is not in that strong a position themselves at the moment. I understand people's need to leave if they are to find work but if the Greek economy is to grow it also needs it's bright and energetic youth, so it is a very difficult situation.

Greece could also have done something a long time ago to save themselves and didn't. And to be fair this wasn't the fault of Papandraeu, it was the previous government who hid the books and went to great lengths to cover the state of the economy from both the EU and the Greek people. Plus whilst Greece, Italy et al are weak, Germany and France are stronger so they were never going to try too hard to save the situation.

This is possibly why the EU won't not work, in the long run everyone will look after themselves first. This is not a critisism by the way, it is just human nature and honestly, if I were German right now I wouldn't be too worried about little old Greece either.

But all the best to Italy Julia, I was saddened to hear that you will be joining us as outcastes and hope you can do a better job of turning things around than we have so far. Solidarity!

Sile
14-11-11, 08:40
Julia, the Italian left was always after Berlusconi, but he was not guilty enough, or maybe too clever to get caught. The guy owns half of the country and behaved like Mel Brooks' Louis XVI in History of the World (It's good to be the king...). He surely was a European (as well as a national) embarassment, but he could barely have been suspected of getting money off the taxpayer to line his own pockets, like, well, everywhere else.
Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was. The problem with Berlusconi was that he did not bow to the bankers nor Merkozy (he's richer than them...), and he had to go to let somebody more flexible to take the calls from Berl.., sorry, Brussels.
On your previous remark, concerning how Greece could have been salvaged, I have doubts. First because the bankers want their money back, and the bailouts were only given out with certain conditions (that we might discover in a few years). Secondly, 2012 is a very important year in Europe, elections are taking place in France, and Sarkozy does not want to upset the French any further, his campaign is at stake. Just as in 40, nobody wanted a war over the Sudetenland, no one will commit political suicide over Greece. Merkel's party already has a very bad record in local elections for the last 18 months, getting the Germans to make more efforts to keep Greece afloat would trigger a revolution. Now, as a solidarity gesture, you're welcome to send half your wages check to Athens, but I surely won't join you.


Berlusconni brought this on himself, in 2008 he won majority in parliment ( first time for any Italian governmenT ) and with his coalition partner the legaNord could have made changes. He promised a LegaNord initiative, Fiscal Federalism and delayed and delayed its introduction ( just this policy would have saved italy). He was told by LegaNord to Sell Alitalia and Rai tv and yet he saved them with great expensive - these companies are a dud a waste of monies especially since Italy already has 2 other airlines that fly as far as Dubai.
The italian left is supported by the unions and will not make any further austerity packages.

As I said , if Italy is to save itself it must depart from euro currency - The USA only survived backruptcy ( if you call this survival) because they can print there own money, imagine if they where linked with other nations in a shared currency, the USA would be sold as a second China

Sile
14-11-11, 08:43
It's the contrary.. it's the italian "Magistratura", that abused his power, and created a clima of persecution.. .
We should thank Magistratura, that stopped the government reforms, attacking continously a person, and don't making him work for the government.. you don't have the idea of how many billions the italian state spended for the magistratura attacks on berlusconi...this were billions throwed off for no use let alone that of unjustified personal persecution.

And also Magistratura is lined up in the part of the italian left, working in favour of leftists parties.. a so undemocratic exercise of power..

and berlusconi wasn't a Tirant.. he was legitemately voted by the majority .

You are Scottish.. i thoght Scottish people were Liberals and democratic... not for the oligarchy of Magistratura, bureocracy, etc etc..


I can explain you better the clima that was created in italy:
the leftists always told to journals berlusconi was uncapable, and that he had to resign himselves, because with him italy would collapse..

than an example: if a person goes out and start tso say that his wife is a ***** continuosly to everybody (and that thing is completely false), than everybody at the end would start to think his wife is a ***** even if at the beginning they didn't think so...
The same situation is in italy, leftists journals continued to tell negative things about our governement, instead of promoting it, because it was runned by berlusconi.., the truth is that our financial situation isn't bad than that of most euro countries including france... the difference is that french politicians aren't selfdestruptive...
the market plungers start to belive italian situation is very bad because all of the leftists journals selfdestruption.. so they dond't confide in italy

Its a pity that 92% of this Magistrata come from campania , there is something wrong in this field of justice in Italy

Yetos
14-11-11, 09:02
a few funny images about Eurozone crisis


http://www.antinews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/eurozone2-e1268856152614.jpg




http://www.antinews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/AREND-rich-poor-greeks.jpg

Cimmerianbloke
14-11-11, 17:36
5340
Van Rompuy meets Benedict XVI.
The Pope; How about you, doesn't it bother you, that feeling to be useless?
Hermann; You know, my holiness (pun lost in translation), in my case, it's not just a feeling...

julia90
14-11-11, 19:57
Its a pity that 92% of this Magistrata come from campania , there is something wrong in this field of justice in Italy

indeed the political Magistratura Boss, Di Pietro is from nearby Molise, a caricature-man
http://orpheus.ilcannocchiale.it/mediamanager/sys.user/23069/di-pietro-duce.jpg

julia90
14-11-11, 19:59
Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was.

that's why he's still more capable man in italian politics, the better for now we had...

Endri
14-11-11, 22:32
I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

zanipolo
14-11-11, 23:14
I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

does not compute...there about 11 Million greeks, it we remove the aged, injured, children, public workers and non citizens, then the taxable work force is 3 Million. how do you expect these Greeks to repay anything when they have barely any industry .

Yetos
15-11-11, 00:28
I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

By your flag I see that you are Albanian,

Let me remind that in Greece work and Live 1 500 000 more than Albanians,
the ones that send them away from they country to a foreign country must not complain if these people turn back and Albania has 50% unemployment,

the ones who make desert their land and sold it to JPMORGAN and kick their people to another country
I think must be care on what they say,

Just consider that about of 14%- 20% of Albanian ballance is by Albanian people who work in Greece and send money to Albania..

cause the money of silver goes all to a doctor and his daughter, while the other guy is seeking for alcohol,

what remains goes to singurimi and secret propaganda agents

Except if by your words you wanted to tell us that Albanians are lazy non working and you send them away to Greece to feed them, Do you mean that?

Yetos
15-11-11, 01:00
does not compute...there about 11 Million greeks, it we remove the aged, injured, children, public workers and non citizens, then the taxable work force is 3 Million. how do you expect these Greeks to repay anything when they have barely any industry .


according Greek buraeu is about <4 million the places, and became about <3 million last 2 years and after market extra tax,
estimation talks about 2 600 000 to 2 800 000 million next year

consider the about 1 million illegal immigrants that work and not pay for insurance

in summer the work places reach 5 000 000 places due to turism
but how can someone live when works for 3-6 months

there are many people even childs who work in family business, especially in summer
the problem is not only the state workers, the problem is elsewhere, the state workers is just an extra 2-6% of another European country,
the problem is that my products are sold with 23% tax while people from Albania Bulgaria Fyrom bring goods bought by 10% tax and can sell them cheaper,
the problem is that the best Greek olive oil, which is maybe the best in the world, can not be sold,
why?
cause due to policies Germany imports Huge quantities from a non EU country like N africa
and can sell cheaper in Greece, why cause in N africa they don't have Euro

that was the paradox after 2003
Greece a traditional olive country and orange and peaches and strawberry import what? olive oil and peaches !!!!
as you understand the paradox is a bigger truth,
it is not strange that after 1990 many neighbor countries got plus developement and greece got minus
all the neighbors are not in EUrozone, so they are flexible as economies

On the other hand it is the corruption of politician and Technocrats since the Bank scandal are not little starting from koskotas times to saliarelis to kokkalis reaching layrentiadis etc
do you know many scandals were done by Techocrats in Greece? many

I don't know if Sarkozy was right when he told that Greece should enter Eurozone,
But I know that there was a big Hypocricy cause both France and Germany knew about the depth of Greece before 2002 and also the loans and the most worse is the case of Germany and siemens with the C4I project for Olympic games which cost 4 times more !!!!!
who bought it? ask which Greek politician had German wife.

Antigone
15-11-11, 07:49
there are many people even childs who work in family business, especially in summer
,
the problem is that the best Greek olive oil, which is maybe the best in the world, can not be sold,
why?
that was the paradox after 2003
Greece a traditional olive country and orange and peaches and strawberry import what? olive oil and peaches !!!!
as you understand the paradox is a bigger truth,
it is not strange that after 1990 many neighbor countries got plus developement and greece got minus
all the neighbors are not in EUrozone, so they are flexible as economies.

Yes many Greek children work through the summers, it is the only way small family businesses, who can't afford to employ workers, can survive. In my area children start at about 13 or 14yrs of age, my own children included have been working 12 to 14hr days, every summer since that age. They still do, the extra money enables them to live whilst they study at university through the winter as we can only afford to help them to a certain extent, not fully support them until they have finished their degrees.

The olive oil is another good point, the majority of oil produced on our island is transported to Italy for example. Not to be marketed and sold as a product of Greece, it is bought by Italian companies to be marketed and sold as Italian oil. It is crazy.

Yetos
21-11-11, 01:55
It is not my point of view,

but it is good to see on some see Europe in the other coasr of Atlantic ocean

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opinion/sunday/douthat-conspiracies-coups-and-currencies.html?_r=1&ref=rossdouthat

Canek
29-11-11, 15:06
Germany and France have their own problems... they can't be paying forever for others' "fiesta" and "siesta".

Mzungu mchagga
04-12-11, 18:41
Seems like the rest of Europe can stop holding it's breath for a moment! If it was for former chancellor Helmut Schmidt, Germany should try to hold it's dominance in European politics back and instead show more solidarity in economy:



Germany risks isolation, warns Schmidt

Former Social Democrat (SPD) chancellor Helmut Schmidt urged Germans today to soothe what he said were growing fears of German dominance in Europe and come to the rescue of debt-stricken euro zone partners.

In an hour-long speech to a party conference, the chain-smoking 92-year-old said Berlin risked isolation if it tried to impose its ideas on European partners. Instead, Mr Schmidt argued, Germany should embrace further European integration.
"If we let ourselves be seduced into taking on a leading role in Europe, our neighbours will brace themselves against us," Schmidt said from a wheelchair to a packed hall of opposition SPD members.
"We need to show heart towards our friends and neighbours. And that is especially the case for Greece," he said.

Taking aim at conservative chancellor Angela Merkel, he said "German national muscle-flexing" was damaging the national interest.
"Considerable doubt has emerged in the last few years about the steadiness of German politics," he said, adding there was "growing concern about German dominance".

Talk of a euro crisis was "idle gossip" by politicians and the media, he said.
Mr Schmidt, who regularly tops national polls of respected politicians, was West German chancellor from 1974 to 1982.
His speech, greeted by a standing ovation, comes just days before a crunch summit of EU leaders who are struggling to find ways to regain investors' confidence in the euro.
Dr Merkel, initially blamed for exacerbating the debt crisis by acting too hesitantly, has doggedly refused to agree to steps that could cost German taxpayers more and fuel inflation.
To the chagrin of countries such as France and Britain, she opposes both a greater role for the European Central Bank in helping debt-ridden euro zone members and common euro zone debt issuance.
Instead, she insists the only way out of the crisis is German-style budget discipline.
To that end, she is pushing EU leaders to agree to new, binding rules giving Brussels greater control over national budgets and automatically punishing states that breach deficit rules. She also wants a financial transaction tax.
Her arguments have triggered accusations that Europe risks turning German. That impression was strengthened when her party ally Volker Kauder said "German is being spoken in Europe." That unleashed a wave of headlines about jackboots and a "Fourth Reich" in countries including Britain. France is also bristling at Germany's new role in Europe which stems from its economic might.
Conservative German newspaper Die Welt ran an editorial last week arguing that Germany had become as isolated as the US was during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Since the second World War, Germany has shied away from showing political muscle internationally to match its economic power due to its Nazi legacy.
Schmidt said Germany could not be a normal country in the foreseeable future due to its "terrible and unique historic burden." He called for further European integration if the continent were to avoid being sidelined.

The SPD has taken a more pro-European stand in the euro zone crisis and its leaders back the idea of euro bonds.
Schmidt has backed former finance minister Peer Steinbrueck as the SPD's candidate to fight Dr Merkel in the 2013 election. The party's leaders are due to hold their major speeches tomorrow.

Source:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1204/breaking60.html

Carlos
04-12-11, 23:29
What the German wise persons think about Spain and the crisis.

They will say that I very rarely see people but this Thursday I met with the mind to new experiences. Announced the presence in the Rafael del Pino Jurgen B. Donges, a type that would be wrong to think that it is not known in his home at lunchtime, and in some circumstances contribute to make it truly unique. First is a German born in Seville, a contradiction 'in terminis' has been resolved on the German side, second is a professor emeritus at the University of Cologne, and finally has been president of the German Council of Economic Experts, and therefore, was one of five scholars who advise the ministers Germans so they know what to do, and paint in gold or in clubs.

Let me place before the character. Donges, so perhaps it was wise for ten years, believes the smartest in the class, and do not forget to remember that if you had done Helmut Kohl case there would have been no crisis of the euro for the simple reason that he saw no need to create a single currency, nor a sovereign debt crisis, because none of the peripheral countries had entered the eurozone, "When I was dispatched to Kohl said he had to think big historical terms," ​​he said in a tone of derision.

We, therefore, to an economist who believes listísimo and feels a deep contempt for politicians, either because they ignore him at all or because no heed to themselves and do not respect their own rules. This disdain is not saved or Angela Merkel, here we find a governess goat or the devil wearing Prada large sizes, but that does not exceed Donges soft.

His conclusion is that the current crisis has nothing to do with financial four years ago but has been driven by governments, as passed by the Arc de Triomphe the European Treaty provisions prohibiting the rescue of a member or the ECB to finance public deficits.

Understandably, the sage is opposed to the ECB buying government debt ("deaf ears and will not solve anything") to euro ("Zapatero and Berlusconi have not done the little that made it not been for the higher risk premiums (...) Jesus told us to be brothers, but cousins ​​referred to the Germans, etc "), and concern that all countries of the nose should remain in euros.

What do things have been done well? Few. A debt restructuring is Greek, which, apparently, was his idea - "I already told my minister" - and it does not really help much because the Greeks can not afford it even with the off, the second , forcing banks to capitalize and to consider debt a risky asset, and the third, extending the formula to constitutionalize the containment of the deficit, as we have imported from Germany. Nevertheless, "we are worse than 18 months ago."

More interesting than the above was to prove that the Germans are happy to know that the Spanish, who filled the auditorium, they are able to laugh out loud laughter when a German repeated the topic here is low productivity because we are lazy and work less that the guardian angel: "In Germany when we left breakfast we will work from home. And you, being in bed a few minutes, half asleep and they need a coffee to go. Maybe that could change, "he said.

The laughs were sad, but more painful was that one of the presenters at Donges, Amadeo Petitbò, asked him what he was going to improve our competitiveness. The question was clearly inappropriate, coming from a gentleman whom taxpayers have paid to chair the Tribunal for the Defense of Competition, naively believing that knew something about the subject.

Back to the comparison between Germany and Spain: there-and-true learning takes great care in companies, and here, there is all much cheaper, to the point where the brandy Carlos I, which deprived Donges, Cologne is five dollars cheaper than in Malaga. And that's not to mention the Frankfurt airport, where no one waits in long lines to pass the controls because there is good and bad here. Even the angry Germans and the U.S. are much better than ours: "They look more neat and more contact with the shower" (laughs). In his opinion, if we are not very productive because we want, but we can learn. "You have learned to play football. There is nothing that can not be changed, "he said. (More laughter).

The lecture concluded with the three wise advice Rajoy, in which he recognized as a merit for having remained silent after the elections. In his view, if politicians stay silent for several months, avoid uncertainties launch markets.

Well, the president-elect should submit a plan to clean up public finances for several years, detailing where to cut spending and put the focus of the income tax rise, "which does not affect business investment." You must also restructure the financial system by creating a bad bank, explaining that taxpayers will have to pay those. Finally, it has to create the Ministry of Economy and Labour to manage an in-depth labor reform, warning unions that will bring you to cool your kicking. Following his advice and be patient, because these things are slow palace, we will be saved.

http://www.cuartopoder.es/preferirianohacerlo/lo-que-los-sabios-alemanes-piensan-de-espana-y-de-la-crisis/1227


What an onlooker! a few years ago the whole world was pleased with the Spanish miracle, in this moment it was importing to nobody if we drink coffee before going to the work. If this German wise person wants that we start speaking about topics also we can start the Spanish speaking about topics and say with what intention the U.E. was created in his moment...

Spion Stirlitz
06-12-11, 20:40
Carlos, please don't be offended, but the result of passing the article trough automatic translation, was attrocious. :embarassed:

But don't worry, I could summirize:

The author went to the conference of this Herr/Señor Donges (or something like that) and felt depressed of seeing the combination of sufficiency and arrogance, the cultural/racial sense of supperiorty, plus the lack of deep thought formulas that really addressed the issues.

Hopping that "Cimerianbroke" do not finally explode, I will tell you that that is the sad true I have delved, an old truth that the times have not changed, what changed is our counciousness of it:

Many Germans are arrogant.

"Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" :confused2:

I don't say that they are "bad" persons. And of course one should not deprive itself for the pleasure of, say, driving a nice German car, reading a good German novel, etcetera, if it suits you, just because of that.

The solution for you?

Don't put yourself in a position where a German could tell you what to do.

It is as simple as that.

Regards.

Carlos
06-12-11, 21:11
Spion Stirlitz
Carlos, please don't be offended, but the result of passing the article trough automatic translation, was attrocious.

I am not responsible for the translators, however I have another version with a different translator to see if it suits you more.

On the topic at hand, I get to be in that room and grab my headphones for simultaneous translation I leave and left the room, I find intolerable nonsense to bring a foreign speaker is supposed to receive expert ridiculous insults based on nonsense.

If the Europeans are giving these examples of ignorance of each other, really not going to get anywhere.

Antigone
07-12-11, 07:50
Many Germans are arrogant.

It is not specific to Germans though. Many French, British, Greek, Americans, Spanish, Mexican, Italian, Swedish, Russian, Australian, Turkish, etc etc etc are also arrogant. Unfortunately, it is a condition that is to be found all over the world.

But basically, all arrogance says about a person is that they are ignorant.

Mzungu mchagga
07-12-11, 12:45
Cimmerianbloke is a Belgian guy living in Germany, so he's writing his statements out of a Belgian perspective. Even though he expresses a lot of feelings many Germans share, but wouldn't dare to express.

But anyways, there has never been a time in which a nation with more economical or political power than another country has not been called arrogant. It is both due to a feeling of powerlessness of the weaker one and a feeling of confirmation of the stronger one. For a long time Australians might have called the British as arrogant; for Latin America the Spanish and Portuguese are arrogant; for a South Italian North Italians are arrogant; in Europe the French are arrogant anyway, and so are the Germans; and for the whole world US-Americans are arrogant.

edao
20-12-11, 18:55
(Bloomberg) -- Greece is the most leveraged developed country, followed by Portugal and the U.K., according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The U.S. tied with Ireland as the fourth most leveraged in the rankings, ahead of France, Spain and Italy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANPwcH8lV88&amp;feature=g-u&amp;context=G209e985FUAAAAAAALAA

spongetaro
07-02-12, 04:48
I have some doubts on this matter. And the key here is that these two characters behave with each passing year more and more like the Emperors. They talk somewhere behind closed doors about issues that should be discussed by the leaders of all the European Union. And so, from the outset. Also the euro-themed issues will require a much more democratic. But, as it seems to me, knowledge of some West European leaders of a recent history are very weak.
It is understandable that they have no personal experience of a previous project, which collapsed in East Europe, but they could at least try to learn something from this.

After 2012, Sarkozy will not be president anymore which is not bad for the EU

Vallicanus
07-02-12, 11:02
After 2012, Sarkozy will not be president anymore which is not bad for the EU

Will Mme Holande be any better, sir?

Mzungu mchagga
07-02-12, 19:04
With every day that Mrs. Merkel interferes and meddles into internal politics of other EU states, I feel more and more embarrased and ashamed about our chancelloress. Especially the election campaign for Sarkozy yesterday, but also Merkozy's decision yesterday without the rest of the EU to introduce a frozen account for Greece was far too much.

Sadly, as most Germans are not directly affected by it, they don't have an idea or a feeling for what is going on in Europe outside of Germany. Demonstrations by Europeans outside of Berlin or Brussels won't help very much in that case. If people wanted to put more awareness into that issue, they need to come here! In millions!

For instance, if Mrs. Merkel treats the whole of Europe as if she was it's chancelloress, there is no reason why other members of the EU shouldn't treat the Bundestag as if it was their parliament, or the court of justice in Karlsruhe as if it was their court of justice!
My advice for all the members of the EU is to form their own parties or set up their own chancellor candidates who run for the German national Bundestag elections in 2013. Set up your own ballot boxes, throw the votes into the German boxes, or even better, come to Germany in thousands (or better millions) to the ballot offices and insist on joining the elections! Sue the government and go to Karlsruhe or the court of justice in Luxembourg if your votes are not counted!

Of course the chances for immediate success are limited, but I think this is the only way to put awareness on this problem, or otherwise it will never end!

ApriliaNutter
10-02-12, 18:36
After 2012, Sarkozy will not be president anymore which is not bad for the EU

I don't think it will make things better either ;)

sparkey
10-02-12, 19:12
After 2012, Sarkozy will not be president anymore which is not bad for the EU


Will Mme Holande be any better, sir?


I don't think it will make things better either ;)

Hm... I think I'll start a French election poll, lest things get contentious here!

Cimmerianbloke
12-02-12, 00:20
I think the thread should be re-titled "can Germany solve the Eurozone crisis" as France clearly disqualified for failing to preserve her economy from the turmoil. With talks of Greece leaving the Eurozone getting louder and clearer, it's only a matter of time before the Eurozone bows to Frau Merkel's will. How much austerity can Greece put up with is the trigger...

PonosBosne
14-02-12, 23:44
Nope, the E.U. won't exist anymore in the near future. It's a good victory for honest people and mankind. So this ridiculous devil illuminati plan won't work. So yes I'm hope the E.U. falls fast. :)

Carlos
06-05-13, 02:13
We need more common laws including legal, especially tougher anti-corruption laws and eliminate bureaucracy and lower taxes on self-employed in Spain for example are about 300 € monthly without barriers and bureaucracy when starting a business, giving the impression that your government accuses you and hinders you in creating a business.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-05-13, 17:14
The troubles in the Eurozone are much too deep for one or two countries to solve. The system requires a complete revamping.

BTW, Draconian austerity measures are just making things worse.

Jackson
06-05-13, 20:40
Sarkozy bluntly told Cameron: "You have lost a good opportunity to shut up."

I wish I could have seen that :laughing: The UK want none of the hassle of Europe but all the benefits. We don't want to deal the Euro-zone crisis, but we don't want the solutions to effect us negatively.

WE WANT TO HAVE OUR CAKE AND TO EAT IT! :ramen:


Article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/23/cameron-sarkozy-euro-debt-crisis)


Yeah Cameron is an arse. The Tories keep giving us the speel that they can renegotiate on the terms of Europe for Britain, which of course they can't. He lies to us and pisses off the rest of the EU no doubt. We need to have a referendum here soon to sort it out, one way or the other.

Balder
10-05-13, 23:37
Hardly a mention of the next big boy in trouble: France. It’s internals are not good. The 1% are restless and resentful. I’d keep an eye on that country as much as Spain or Greece. Austerity there will come at a higher price for all.