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Goga
28-10-11, 05:39
I asked myself how I2a-din ended up in Britain. And now I found the answer!

Marcus Aurelius send 5500 Sarmatians to Britain!

"Archaeological evidence of Sarmatians has been found also at Chesters ..."

http://books.google.nl/books?id=XKU9AAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA151&ots=ZgArIpYhf1&dq=iazyges%20chester&hl=nl&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false


And not the Germanic tribes but Iranic tribes were the real power around the Black Sea and North of the Balkans!

Incredible, didn't know that Emperor Galerius (293-311) even had a Sarmatian bodyguard!

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/811/95704057.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4958/14693781.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3595/22898047.jpg


I took this from page 50-51 from this book:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=yVwsxl_OI18C&lpg=PA51&ots=Xpe38vgBg5&dq=iazyges%20chester&hl=nl&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false



more about this subject: 'From Scythia to Camelot', by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor
http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=370

Goga
28-10-11, 06:00
Celtic Druidic rituals are actually Iranic Zoroastrian! The Celts learned it from the Sarmatians!

http://www.llewellyn.com/encyclopedia/article/187

Antigone
28-10-11, 07:05
As no one knows what was involved in a Druidic ritual and what little was written about Druids (particularly those in Ireland) came from the outside perception of foreigners (therefore rumour) I don't see how they can be correctly compared to anyone, little on so emphatically as the above link suggests. The author of the article on Celtic Religion does not list sources either, which also sheds doubt on his/her claims.

sparkey
28-10-11, 07:46
What the...

Goga, there isn't any I2a-Din in Britain, except for extremely recent migrations. Do you mean I2a-Disles? Although it's the closest clade to I2a-Din, Nordtvedt estimates it as having a TMRCA with I2a-Din of nearly 6,000 years ago. That's not within range for the time period you're proposing.

Goga
28-10-11, 15:26
As no one knows what was involved in a Druidic ritual and what little was written about Druids (particularly those in Ireland) came from the outside perception of foreigners (therefore rumour) I don't see how they can be correctly compared to anyone, little on so emphatically as the above link suggests. The author of the article on Celtic Religion does not list sources either, which also sheds doubt on his/her claims.
Fire

"Of the three common gates in the Sacred Center, it is the Fire that is most important within Druid ritual and Druidic cosmology. It is clear that like the eastern Indo-European religions, our own has developed into a fire-cult."

... The fire is intimately connected to the sacrifice. Agni, the Vedic fire god, not only devours the sacrifice, but he calls the gods forth to sit upon the sacrificial grass, and he transfers the sacrifice to the rest of the host of gods and goddesses, who (it is said) cannot be exhilarated without him. ...

... In Zoroastrian ritual, the two basic cult objects are still fire and water, both of which are offered to in the daily yasna ritual. This ritual seeks to purify the fire, called the son of the Lord of Wisdom and placed in the south of the ritual precinct, which is the place of goodness and bounty. ...

http://www.adf.org/articles/cosmology/nine-tenets.html

Goga
28-10-11, 15:29
Also remember that "the Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practised in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra, adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Romans also called the religion Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

Goga
28-10-11, 15:33
What the...

Goga, there isn't any I2a-Din in Britain, except for extremely recent migrations. Do you mean I2a-Disles? Although it's the closest clade to I2a-Din, Nordtvedt estimates it as having a TMRCA with I2a-Din of nearly 6,000 years ago. That's not within range for the time period you're proposing.Ok. I don't know what I mean, but if there is some unusual 'eastern' DNA in Britain it could be due to the Sarmatians!

Taranis
28-10-11, 15:35
Sorry Goga, you are making a number of false conjectures here:

- first off, modern (neo-pagan) Druidism has very little to do with the actual ancient religion. I would argue that our best sources on that are Irish/Welsh myths and references in Greek/Roman sources, though all of these are biased (the former through Christian influence, the latter through the 'Interpretatio Graecia/Romana').

- secondarily, you assume a connection between the Sarmatians and Zoroastrianism. This is just plain wrong: Zoroastrianism was the religion of Persia (in fact, the state religion if you will), and not of the Sarmathians. Just because the Sarmatians just like the Persians were Iranic peoples doesn't mean that they had the same religion.

- third, as Sparkey correctly pointed out, the subclade of Haplogroup I2a on the British Isles is actually a different one from the one found on the Balkans, and is more likely to be native to the British Isles

Goga
28-10-11, 15:42
Sorry Goga, you are making a number of false conjectures here:

- first off, modern (neo-pagan) Druidism has very little to do with the actual ancient religion. I would argue that our best sources on that are Irish/Welsh myths and references in Greek/Roman sources, though all of these are biased (the former through Christian influence, the latter through the 'Interpretatio Graecia/Romana').

- secondarily, you assume a connection between the Sarmatians and Zoroastrianism. This is just plain wrong: Zoroastrianism was the religion of Persia (in fact, the state religion if you will), and not of the Sarmathians. Just because the Sarmatians just like the Persians were Iranic peoples doesn't mean that they had the same religion.

- third, as Sparkey correctly pointed out, the subclade of Haplogroup I2a on the British Isles is actually a different one from the one found on the Balkans, and is more likely to be native to the British Isles
- "Since Zoroaster was reforming an earlier nature religion, the word Druj is possibly at root the same as the words Druid and Dryad. O.Schrader in his Prehistoric Antiquities of the Aryan Peoples, thinks the name had been applied to malevolent ghosts, conceivably the same nature spirits that the Druids were supposed to have guarded against. When Ahriman became the opponent of Ahuramazda, the Druj was equated with him.

Also, that's a little bit offtopic. But Druids practise the bonfire rituals too:

Tree cults were popular in India, so this looks to be the living residue of ancient Aryan tree worship. European Indo-Eupopeans such as the Scandinavians and Saxons worshipped trees, as did the Celtic Druids. Decorating our own familiar Christmas tree could hardly be a more ancient Pagan practice. The decorations are supposed to remind the tree of how it is in full fruit, and prepare it for awakening again for a new season in spring. It comes from Germany but Luther is said to have revived the custom from what he had read about Zoroastrianism."
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/non-iranian/Judaism/Persian_Judaism/book2/pt4.htm


- "The religious practices were consistant among the Sauro-Sarmatian nomads. They were typical of the clan-tribal cults of pre-Zoroastrian Iran. The gods were personified. Those gods of nature were the sky, the earth, and fire. Gods pertaining to social concepts were the domestic hearth and war. The evidence of fire cult practices is exemplified by charcoal and ashes found in the burials."
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/sarmatian.shtml

Sarmatians practised the fire cult!


- read my answer I gave to Sparkley!

Goga
28-10-11, 16:18
Some scholars have suggested that the Druids were the Celtic counterparts of the Brahmans of India.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/European_Cultures_(800_CE_Supplement)


There're even some folks that believe that Sarmatian legends were responsible for the (King) Arthurian legends.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_basis_for_King_Arthur#Sarmatian_hypothe sis


"Bannock

A barley cake traditionally served at Celtic/Druidic festivals celebrating the advent of spring"

http://pendragon343.com/encyclo.txt


My people (Yezidi Kurds) still make every year a cake celebrating the advent of spring / Newroz (Kurdish new year), lol. We call this ritual (cake) 'klotsj'!

rms2
29-10-11, 13:10
The similarities you mention go back beyond the Sarmatians to a shared Indo-European heritage. Your y-dna premise is incorrect, as sparkey and Taranis have written. I doubt the Sarmatians had much if any impact in Britain, genetic or otherwise. Some people fixate on them because they were horsemen and thus are thought glamorous.

Goga
29-10-11, 19:58
I do agree with you. Of course was the genetic impact of Sarmatians on Brits almost zero. 5500 people is not very much even 2000 years ago!

Asturrulumbo
29-10-11, 21:08
- "Since Zoroaster was reforming an earlier nature religion, the word Druj is possibly at root the same as the words Druid and Dryad. O.Schrader in his Prehistoric Antiquities of the Aryan Peoples, thinks the name had been applied to malevolent ghosts, conceivably the same nature spirits that the Druids were supposed to have guarded against. When Ahriman became the opponent of Ahuramazda, the Druj was equated with him.

The most widely accepted etymology for "druid" is Proto-Celtic *daru-wid-s ("oak-knower", "tree-knower?"). The Proto-Celtic *daru (oak) comes from Proto-Indo-European *doru (tree), which is in Iranian languages reflected semantically as "wood". So I don't see how they are etymologically related.

Taranis
29-10-11, 21:29
The most widely accepted etymology for "druid" is Proto-Celtic *daru-wid-s ("oak-knower", "tree-knower?"). The Proto-Celtic *daru (oak) comes from Proto-Indo-European *doru (tree), which is in Iranian languages reflected semantically as "wood". So I don't see how they are etymologically related.

Actually, you mean semantically related. ;-) Etymologically, it is the same source (common Indo-European). It just doesn't have the same meaning in the individual languages.

Asturrulumbo
29-10-11, 22:29
Actually, you mean semantically related. ;-) Etymologically, it is the same source (common Indo-European). It just doesn't have the same meaning in the individual languages.

Both semantically and etymologically. While the dru- in druid came from PIE *doru (tree), Avestan Druj probably came from PIE *dhreugh- (deceive), cognate for example with Avestan druzaiti (lies, decieves) and Old Indic druhyati (harms, is hostile to)

Yorkie
31-10-11, 10:32
I am not so sure about this. I2a-Dinaric is effectively absent in Britain. The forms found there, called 'Isles' and 'Disles' by Ken Nordtvedt are quite different from the largely Balkan-distributed 'Dinaric North' and 'Dinaric South'. For exampe, 'Isles' and 'Dinaric' parted ways around 13,000 years ago. Nordtvedt sees the absolutely miniscule presence of I2a-Dinaric in Britain as largely due to NPEs and Polish military who settled in the UK after WW2.

I am not saying that Sarmatians never set foot in Britain but that there appears to be no credible case for their genetic echoes in the form of I2a-Dinaric. As for the presence of E clades...that might be different.

The major form of I2a in Britain which is P37.2, M423 and L161 positive, has the new nomenclature of I2a1b2-Isles. It is currently divided by Nordtvedt into 8 sub-clades, differing slightly in age and distribution. Ireland, Scotland and England have very small numbers of these clades, but they appear to be effectively absent from Wales. There is a small presence across the north European plain too with Germany predominating. Nordtvedt conjectures that L161 was founded in northern Germany. It is likely that the 'Isles' clades were carried in small quantities to Britain and Ireland by successive waves of invaders as a minority signature, or by individuals [traders etc], from the days of Doggerland through to Anglo-Saxon invasions [the latter case regarding the English distribution].

Goga
31-10-11, 16:30
Yes you're right! I was wrong about I2a in Britain. It's even not sure that I2a-DIN 'belongs' to Sarmatians or something.

Farquharson
01-11-11, 02:08
You don't like Celts, do you? lol

Bodin
02-11-11, 17:37
I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.

sparkey
03-11-11, 18:12
I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.

I thought it was Parthian rather than Sarmatian.

Goga
03-11-11, 18:20
I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
"The Romans, in turn, likely adopted this symbol of war and authority from their Sarmatian foes of the eastern steppes, taking draco standards as spoils of war, as documented by the reliefs on the base of emperor Trajan’s column. The draco was made of a metal dragon’s head and a tubular fabric body, not unlike a modern wind sock, with the fabric body flowing in the breeze behind the head."

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2643/trajandraco.jpg
Sarmation draco detail from a relief at the base of Trajan's Column (A.D. 113-117), Rome.

http://www.tattoosymbol.com/just-for-site/welsh-dragon.html

Goga
03-11-11, 18:23
I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
The strange thing is that the Roman ceasars recruted Sarmatian (Iranic) warriors and had even Sarmatian bodyguards! So they trusted them. And on the other side the Romans fought against the Iranic peoples in the East!

razor
03-11-11, 18:38
I thought it was Parthian rather than Sarmatian.
I think a number of steppe origin peoples adopted this as a war symbol. The Parthians seemed to prefer the Scythian archer on their coins though. Incidentally, there are interesting "dragon" allusions in the Old Ukrainian legends. The multiple fortifications (many of them excavated) which stretch south of Kyiv near the border with the steppe were traditionally called the "Dragon Walls" (Zmijevi Valy) They were used, abandoned, repaired and reused for a very long time. The "dragons" were obviously the aggressive steppe populations at various epochs. Curiously some of these are also associated with the Kyiv Foundation Legend: the second "brother" of the founding trio in that legend bears the name "Serpent" (Shchek) and there was a hill by his name in Old Kyiv ("Shchekavytsja").

NickP
23-07-12, 23:05
I heard about this theory before. They say Roman soldiers sent some Sarmatians, as well as some people from the occupied Balkan region to Britain to fight against other tribes and some settled down. They link the presence of E, in addition to I to them also. How accurate this is is uncertain to me. Could be coincidence, as other explanations are also possible. But it's still interesting nonetheless.

Goga
23-07-12, 23:20
There's some Gedrosia admixture-dna component in Northwest Europe (mostly among folks with Germanic roots) . It's possible that it was brought by Iranic tribes for the east (Asia). Germanic and Iranic tribes had contact with each other in Eastern Europe.

GloomyGonzales
24-07-12, 18:00
There's some Gedrosia admixture-dna component in Northwest Europe (mostly among folks with Germanic roots) . It's possible that it was brought by Iranic tribes for the east (Asia). Germanic and Iranic tribes had contact with each other in Eastern Europe.

Gedrosian component was brought in Europe by R1b guys. I reaches highest values in Basques and gradually drops while you move clockwise from Iberia to Scandinavia.

MOESAN
26-07-12, 23:15
1- I am not aware that Y-I could be a typical HG of Sarmatians peoples I see as Y-R1a + (some Y-G2 bearers? only the Alans, perhaps) - it is possible that some Y-I2a1>>I2a1b could be from old enough times in the Steppes (I am almost sure) but I don't see them as a major component of Sarmatians or Scythes or Alans or...
2- Rome send a lot of exotic legions to Brittain as to other lands - without any precise SNP it is hard to decide which ethny came with which Hgs: it concerns Y-E1b, Y-J1, Y-J2, some Y-G, some Y-I2 (of all sorts)...
3- the surveys we have are very scarce concerning samples sizes FOR EVERY SMALL REGIONS so when speaking about the rarest HG (lower represented in %) I think we have to be carefull...
4- Western Germanic in contact with Iranic peoples??? when? where? all of them were not Goths or Vandals?!? were there Iranic people in the Basque country?
5- Dragons? are we sure they are the propriety of an unic culture?

zanipolo
15-08-12, 22:18
I saw a doco yesterday and it had proof that the sarmatians where posted between hadrians wall and glasgow in the years between 200 to 250CE

They brought the R1a, T, I , L and G ydna Haplogroup in these parts of scotland, I presume England as well.

I was wondering if anyone has the subclades of these markers in Scotland

MOESAN
15-08-12, 22:53
you are able to see through walls !?! (joke, no offense, take it easy) - it would be better saying they can have brought some SNPs of these Haplogroups - Y-R1a was brought also by Vikings principally and some bits by other germanic tribes or soldiers - Y-G was brought surely by some neolithic agriculteurs or shepherds - Y-I2 (not Y-I1) was brought there maybe too by some neolithic people and for I believe, by some Bell beakers -Y-T and Y-L could have been send there by other 'exotic' soldiers at service for Rome...

oriental
15-08-12, 23:52
I saw a doco yesterday and it had proof that the sarmatians where posted between hadrians wall and glasgow in the years between 200 to 250CE

They brought the R1a, T, I , L and G ydna Haplogroup in these parts of scotland, I presume England as well.

I was wondering if anyone has the subclades of these markers in Scotland

I was reading about William the Conqueror or the Bastard whichever you prefer. When he conquered England he advertised all over Europe for help and support to suppress the natives with promises of land and so on. All those weird Hg of R1a, T, I, L, G could be from those foreign supporters. Hg L would be the gypsies. Famous gypsies : Rita Hayworth, Elvis Presley, Charlie Chaplin, Michael Caine, etc. Hg T would be ancient as Thomas Jefferson was of the Hg T. Georgian Josef Stalin and Otsi were of Hg G which is very ancient. Of course, the Vikings are Hg I, R1a and R1b

zanipolo
16-08-12, 08:30
I thought it was Parthian rather than Sarmatian.

Its called a Draco and its Sarmatian. ( saw it in the doco)

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco.htm

You might be thinking of the parthian and bactrian auxillary troops whic Rome sent to iberia.

zanipolo
16-08-12, 08:32
I was reading about William the Conqueror or the Bastard whichever you prefer. When he conquered England he advertised all over Europe for help and support to suppress the natives with promises of land and so on. All those weird Hg of R1a, T, I, L, G could be from those foreign supporters. Hg L would be the gypsies. Famous gypsies : Rita Hayworth, Elvis Presley, Charlie Cahplin, Michael Caine, etc. Hg T would be ancient as Thomas Jefferson was of the Hg T. Georgian Josef Stalin and Otsi were of Hg G which is very ancient. Of course, the Vikings are Hg I, R1a and R1b

if you are auxillary troops in the Roman armies ( basically foreigners) , you had to serve 25 years in the army before you became a Roman citizen.........enough time to sow your seeds to a large degree.

oriental
17-08-12, 01:02
I asked myself how I2a-din ended up in Britain. And now I found the answer!

Marcus Aurelius send 5500 Sarmatians to Britain!

"Archaeological evidence of Sarmatians has been found also at Chesters ..."

http://books.google.nl/books?id=XKU9AAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA151&ots=ZgArIpYhf1&dq=iazyges%20chester&hl=nl&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false


And not the Germanic tribes but Iranic tribes were the real power around the Black Sea and North of the Balkans!

Incredible, didn't know that Emperor Galerius (293-311) even had a Sarmatian bodyguard!

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/811/95704057.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4958/14693781.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3595/22898047.jpg


I took this from page 50-51 from this book:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=yVwsxl_OI18C&lpg=PA51&ots=Xpe38vgBg5&dq=iazyges%20chester&hl=nl&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false



more about this subject: 'From Scythia to Camelot', by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor
http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=370

I think there is a Doggerland, the land bridge between the British Isles and the continent that disappeared when the sea level rose after the Ice age ended. Some of the Hg they found from bones were of Hg I2 very similar to those in the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html

NickP
27-08-12, 20:22
Its called a Draco and its Sarmatian. ( saw it in the doco)

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco.htm

You might be thinking of the parthian and bactrian auxillary troops whic Rome sent to iberia.

Yeah I thought the draco was found in several cultures, Iranic, Thracian/Dacian, and others. The Romans could have taken it from either them or the Parthians.

But I'm still kind of doubtful about the lasting presence of these people in Britain, personally.

pipinnacanus
13-12-12, 04:20
The forms found there, called 'Isles' and 'Disles' by Ken Nordtvedt

Nordtvedt is not a accurate or reliable source. In any event, the I2 found in Southern Scotland at small % is anglo-scots, not a Gaelic population, and if 'Sarmatian' has been there for more than 2k years which is certainly within a time frame to develop new SNP not found in a Dinaric donor population=Sarmatian.

The problem is, this region is far from being isolated or mono-cultural, and we know almost nothing about the Picts who would have long inhabited this region. Isles-I2 could be accounted for as a mutation of continental I2, you can theorize about Sarmatians,..etc..., or you can wistfully ponder the unknown ethnicity/language/genetics of Picts, but the outcome is you cant prove any of them, its complete and total conjecture absent ancient DNA results within a culturally identifiable context for comparison.

Britanicus
01-02-13, 01:21
Aha, nice blog. I believe the Sarmatian Knights were sent to Britain over a 200 year period ( not only 5500 troops) and most retired in Britain. They formed the Legio VI under the Roman/ Dacian officer Arturius Castus. Very compelling arguments by Dr Linda Malcor and others on this. She wrote the dialogue for King Arthur. Movie regarding same Sarmatian Knights.

I argued in the u152 section for my PF 4363 link to an I2a in Sardinia, perhaps linking to Sarmatians in Britain I am U152+ PF4363+
from Chelmsford ( Caesaromagus) in England.
Rich C