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edao
29-10-11, 15:41
In refference to this table:
Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage -view table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml)

Can we add up the percentage of G,J2,J1,E1,T,Q and N to work out 'Arab' percentages of genes of European populations? Can these be considered arab genes or not?

Greece = 58%
Italy = 42%
Portugal = 36%
Spain = 22%
France = 21%
Germany = 17.5%
England = 8%
Scotland = 5%

Wilhelm
29-10-11, 16:12
In refference to this table:
Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage -view table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml)

Can we add up the percentage of G,J2,J1,E1,T,Q and N to work out 'Arab' percentages of genes of European populations? Can these be considered arab genes or not?

Greece = 58%
Italy = 42%
Portugal = 36%
Spain = 22%
France = 21%
Germany = 17.5%
England = 8%
Scotland = 5%
No. G is not Arab, it peaks in the Caucasus. Q is not Arab it peaks in Amerindians, N peaks in Siberian populations, in Europe it peaks in Finnish and Baltic. E1 is not Arab, the origin is East-African. Also the presence of J2 in European populations has nothing to do with Arabs. The only one that could make sense is J1, but it's more levantine than arabic. But anyways, if you want to know the Arabic admixture, the best thing is autosomal dna with the Southwest-Asian component, since it peaks in Arabians :

Out of Europe :

Saudis : 71.5%
Yemen Jews : 71.1%
Bedouin : 41%

In Europe :

Sicilians : 10%
South Italian : 9%
Central Italian : 7%
Tuscans : 7%
Greeks : 7%
Sardinian : 6%
Bulgarians : 4%
North Italian : 3%
Romanians : 3%
French : 2%
Spanish : 2%
Scandinavians: 2%
Dutch : 1%
etc.

Taranis
29-10-11, 16:22
What? "Arab"?!! :petrified:

No offense, but I'm terribly afraid that I have to say that this completely makes no sense what so ever.

Many of the Haplogroups you mentioned are clearly are not or only marginally present on the Arabian penninsula:

Distribution maps of Y-Haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml)

As you can see, G is only marginally present on the Arabian penninsula, and Q and N are not present at all, and clearly none of these Haplogroups originated there. As for the other Haplogroups, while they are present on the Arabian penninsula (J2, J1, E1 and T), it seems likely that they were all present in Europe long before the Islamic conquests. So, apart from recent immigration from Arab countries to Europe, the Iberian penninsula and Sicily (as well as Malta, which should be counted with the latter in this context, as the Maltese language is descended from Siculo-Arabic) are the only parts of Europe that historically actually had any Arab influence, and even there, the genetic influx was probably not that big.

Knovas
29-10-11, 16:26
Perfectly explained, Wilhelm. Also, It's time to overcome the haplogroup distribution importance, since quite times does not match with the autosomes.

edao
29-10-11, 17:28
Thanks, I have no agenda here just a bit ignorant on the subject...

Looking at the autosomal maps how do the percentages add up to 100%, or does it not work like that?
For example the relation ship between the northwestern map and the mediterranean one?
Catalonia has 50-60% on the med one and 30-40% north western is that how it would work?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml

Knovas
29-10-11, 17:57
Yes edao, you got it, although the Northwestern shade is really 40-50% range. I must say I also had problems to distinguish it.

Wilhelm
29-10-11, 19:48
Thanks, I have no agenda here just a bit ignorant on the subject...

Looking at the autosomal maps how do the percentages add up to 100%, or does it not work like that?
For example the relation ship between the northwestern map and the mediterranean one?
Catalonia has 50-60% on the med one and 30-40% north western is that how it would work?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml
Yes, take in account also the med one has nothing to do with arabs (it is found at 6% in Arabia) in fact Dienekes recently extra-polated this component with the MLDS project and it came up to be mostly a "Celtic component"

zanipolo
29-10-11, 21:00
In refference to this table:
Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage -view table (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml)

Can we add up the percentage of G,J2,J1,E1,T,Q and N to work out 'Arab' percentages of genes of European populations? Can these be considered arab genes or not?

Greece = 58%
Italy = 42%
Portugal = 36%
Spain = 22%
France = 21%
Germany = 17.5%
England = 8%
Scotland = 5%


no gene belongs to no race, migrations of a people move many genes.

Maciamo
30-10-11, 09:43
Edao, you probably meant of Neolithic Middle Eastern origin instead of Arab. Even though, you forgor R1b which came from the same region as G2a, J1 and J2 in the Mesolithic and early Neolithic. R1b is still one of the most common haplogroup in the Middle East today (18% in Jordan, 17% in North Iraq, 13.5% in Syria), definitely more common than haplogroups G or T (even combined).

Haplogroup Q in the Middle East is probably of Central Asian origin, and probably post-Bronze Age. N is not Middle Eastern at all.

Then, E1 is African and only E1b1b1a is found above 0.1% frequency in Europe. So far there is no conclusive evidence that E1b1b1a came exclusively or even mostly through the Middle East, nor that it came after the Mesolithic. I think there is a good chance that E1b1b1a crossed directly from North Africa to Europe in the late Paleolithic or Mesolithic, making it the second most native European haplogroup after hg I.

This only leave J1 and J2, which originated in Anatolia like R1b, and both peak in the Caucasus, not in Arabic countries.

Goga
30-10-11, 10:03
Edao, you probably meant of Neolithic Middle Eastern origin instead of Arab. Even though, you forgor R1b which came from the same region as G2a, J1 and J2 in the Mesolithic and early Neolithic. R1b is still one of the most common haplogroup in the Middle East today (18% in Jordan, 17% in North Iraq, 13.5% in Syria), definitely more common than haplogroups G or T (even combined).

Haplogroup Q in the Middle East is probably of Central Asian origin, and probably post-Bronze Age. N is not Middle Eastern at all.

Then, E1 is African and only E1b1b1a is found above 0.1% frequency in Europe. So far there is no conclusive evidence that E1b1b1a came exclusively or even mostly through the Middle East, nor that it came after the Mesolithic. I think there is a good chance that E1b1b1a crossed directly from North Africa to Europe in the late Paleolithic or Mesolithic, making it the second most native European haplogroup after hg I.

This only leave J1 and J2, which originated in Anatolia like R1b, and both peak in the Caucasus, not in Arabic countries.
This is a sincere question without any agenda,

Listen, if R1b came to Europe after J, G etc. it would make R1b the most recent immigrant from the Middle East and that's why it would make R1b 'more' Middle Eastern than other in my post named haplogroups.

To me that doesn't make any sense.

Haplogroup 'E' was never found in the ancient European Neolithic sites either. Why do you think then that E in Europe is older than R1b in Europe, please explain?


Edit:

Ps. I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying!

Goga
30-10-11, 10:08
@ edao

In the case you didn't know. The closest relative to the European hg. 'I' is the Hurrian (/Caucasian) hg. 'J2' and 'J1'!

Maciamo
30-10-11, 10:32
@ edao

In the case you didn't know. The closest relative to the European hg. 'I' is the Hurrian (/Caucasian) hg. 'J2' and 'J1'!

Closest Y-chromosome but not closest autosomes !

Maciamo
30-10-11, 10:36
This is a sincere question without any agenda,

Listen, if R1b came to Europe after J, G etc. it would make R1b the most recent immigrant from the Middle East and that's why it would make R1b 'more' Middle Eastern than other in my post named haplogroups.

To me that doesn't make any sense.

Haplogroup 'E' was never found in the ancient European Neolithic sites either. Why do you think then that E in Europe is older than R1b in Europe, please explain?


Edit:

Ps. I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying!

R1b left the Middle East around the same time as G2a arrived in Southeast Europe. R1b went to the Pontic Steppes instead.

Goga
30-10-11, 10:42
Closest Y-chromosome but not closest autosomes !
True, but I named haplogroups as Y-chromosomes. I don't mean the admixture, but the origin (roots) of it.


R1b left the Middle East around the same time as G2a arrived in Southeast Europe. R1b went to the Pontic Steppes instead.Ok, that's possible and can be true. But why R1b didn't mix there with R1a then? When R1b migrated into Western Europe it didn't bring R1a to Europe. So I believe that there're some 'holes' in your theory.

EDIT:

And why is in the Pontic Steppes very little R1b then, if R1b settled there some time ago?