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Maciamo
01-11-11, 14:44
Lacan et al., who tested the Neolithic site of Treilles in Southwest France (G2a + I2a) published a new study (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract) on Neolithic Spain. The samples are 2000 years older than in Treilles, and identified both G2a and E-V13. This could either confirm a Neolithic origin of E-V13 or, my recent proposal that E1b1b crossed from Africa to Europe before the Neolithic. Spain is indeed the most likely point of entry from North Africa, along with South Italy.

Considering that a substantial percentage of Neolithic mtDNA (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml) in Iberia is African (L1b1, L2, L3, respectively in Andalusia, Navarra and Valencia), this could indeed be a sign of a direct migration from North Africa. My hypothesis (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26788-Did-E1b1b-cross-directly-from-North-Africa-to-Europe-due-to-climate-change) is that this migration was due to the desertification of the Sahara at the end of the last Ice Age.



The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals. No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.

Another interesting point is that they mention that the mitochondrial lineages are mostly pre-Neolithic. If Neolithic farmers kept marrying local girls (from the hunter-gatherer community), that would explain why West Asian autosomal genes diminish gradually as we move further away from the Middle East. That may be why there is so little West Asian admixture in Iberia and Sardinia despite the relatively high percentage of G2a.


EDIT : The individuals results are as follow :

- Y-DNA : five G2a men and one E-V13. All confirmed by SNP test except one G2a.
- mtDNA : three K1a, two T2b, one H3 and one U5.

The E-V13 man is the mtDNA U5.

I can't see why Lacan et al. think that these maternal lineages are pre-Neolithic, except for the U5 and H3.

Mt-haplogroup K, and K1a in particular, is so far the most overrepresented among Neolithic samples (16%) compared to the present-day population. This is exactly the frequency observed today in the Levant and in Kurdistan (Georgia is also high with 11%). This makes of mtDNA K one of the most distinctive Near Eastern marker, the maternal equivalent of G2a.

Mt-haplogroup T has never been found in Europe prior to the Neolithic (except for one sample in the Pitted Ware Culture, which is actually contemporary of the Late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age elsewhere in Europe). There is an interesting inversion of frequency between mtDNA hg J and T in the early and late Neolithic. Based on the current data (247 samples), the frequency of hg T dropped from over 19% in the Early Neolithic to only 4.5% the Late Neolithic, then up again to 10.5% in the Bronze Age (similar level to today).

Knovas
01-11-11, 15:46
The finding of E-V13 in Iberia was really unexpected, it was much logical to find E-M81 and similars. Well, I'm sure they will appear too, but for the moment it's a surprise.

Autosomally speaking as Maciamo pointed, both G2a and the new one don't have a relevant impact. This E-V13 surely contributed to the Northwest/East African components we see in the latest results for Iberians. However, it's difficult to say in other parts of Europe (specially around the Balkans) which kind of influence carried. Possibly the Southeastern component from the Euro7 calculator has something to do with it, but needs to be separated more from the Middle East. We'll see the incomming Dodecad v4 how it looks.

Taranis
01-11-11, 16:35
Wow, excellent news, and a huge surprise. While I expected E1b to show up there, I did NOT expect E1b-V13 to show up in Iberia, if said subclade is today dominant on the Balkans. On the other hand the occurence of G2a is not exactly surprising now after Derenburg, Treilles and Ötzi - it merely reaffirms the other sites. Also, even though this really should not surprise anybody at this point at all (but I'm mention it anyways for the sake of completeness), no R1b - something that was equally expected.

Knovas
01-11-11, 16:46
Correct about R1b. At this moment, if one day appears ancient R1b clearly related with today's dominant Western European subclades, that would be the biggest surprise.

sparkey
01-11-11, 17:20
Nice, several important results here:


Another confirmation of G2a as the major Neolithic Y-DNA haplogroup
A breakthrough in E1b! And E1b-V13, no less! There go "latecomer" theories about E1b-V13... E1b-M81 still needing representation, though...
No I2a1a! Should we expect this? I say yes... Nordtvedt dates the bottleneck of I2a1a after these men lived, at which point it appears to have expanded out of the Pyrenees. So I2a1a would have probably still been a mountain-bound hunter-gatherer haplogroup at this point, unlike the situation with the Treilles samples.
Confirmation of the effect of migrations magnifying the Y-DNA of the migrators but not the mtDNA.

Asturrulumbo
01-11-11, 17:31
Amazing! I had been for some time speculating what this has confirmed: E-V13 (as well as G2a, of course) was brought by the Cardium Pottery Culture. I knew the Greeks and Phoenicians could not be responsible for all the E-V13 found in the west Mediterranean! Also of note is the absence of E-M81, which probably condones the theory (as Maciamo has written) that it is pre-Neolithic in Iberia. Needless to say, it also throws more dirt to the grave of the theory that R1b arrived in w. Europe with the first farmers.
Edit: Of course, this also highlights the need for an Eupedia map of the two main European E1b subclades, does it not, Maciamo? :good_job:

Wilhelm
01-11-11, 18:09
Today E-V13 is found at 0.20% in Spain (n = 1.477) and G2a at 0.14%, from the supplmentary info of the study :

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract

Maciamo
01-11-11, 18:15
Today E-V13 is found at 0.20% in Spain (n = 1.477) and G2a at 0.14%, from the supplmentary info of the study :

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract

Actually that's only for the precise haplotype found in the ancient samples (same STR, I suppose). It's interesting though that the best modern matches for this Neolithic E-V13 are in Montenegro, Armenia and the Druze from the Levant. This would confirm a Near-Eastern origin. If only they had also provided comparisons for North Africa ! How could they look at Irish, Scandinavian and Polish E-V13 but not North African one ?

Incidentally, the Druze might be the closest Levantines to Neolithic farmers. The Druze are also well-known for their quite different Y-DNA and mtDNA frequencies compared to other Levantines. They have a particularly high frequency and high diversity of mt-haplogroup X (27%, including both X1 and X2 subclades). Cruciani found 10% of E-V13 among the Druze, while Shlush et al. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2324201/pdf/pone.0002105.pdf) found 10% of G, 19% of E1b1b, 33% of J and 18% of R1b.

Goga
01-11-11, 22:27
Fascinating! I didn't expect these results. I expected R1b & E, but absolutely no I. Part of my expectations were true.

But I must admit that my doubts on the Paleolithic R1b are growing. And I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong!

There is no R1b, but neither hg. 'I'!

Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.

Ivan
02-11-11, 03:55
Lactase Persistence Result. The LP-13910-C/T SNP associated with lactase persistence was successfully typed for all ancient samples tested. The mutated position would have appeared during the dissemination of the Linear pottery culture in central Europe.

This could indicate they arrived through Balkans, where they could have picked E V13.

They were probably farmers-shepherds, with, as I believe, farming as supplementary activity.

I still can not picture Neolithic farming for a substantial diet, especially in those times, but rather some sort of a food bank allowing for a continuous and more complete nutrition, less dependent on meat.

Knovas
02-11-11, 11:29
Fascinating! I didn't expect these results. I expected R1b & E, but absolutely no I. Part of my expectations were true.

But I must admit that my doubts on the Paleolithic R1b are growing. And I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong!

There is no R1b, but neither hg. 'I'!

Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.
Sparkey already pointed exceedingly well why there's "virtually" no I in Iberia at this period. But the samples from Treilles (in Languedoc-Rosellón, wich is next to Catalonia) showed I2a. So your final statement doesn't mean anything, it's rather likely that Northern Spain was already inhabited by this people and similars according to this finding.

Moreover: Rosellón was part of Catalonia till very recent times, and the fact that the highest Southwestern scores are reported (according to what we know) between ethnic Catalans, being also very high in the average Iberians, gives an idea that there were different I2a peoples inhabiting the Peninsula since very ancient times, and that they were numerous.

Of course, a definitive evidence it's still lacking, but several clues point strongly in that direction.

Kardu
02-11-11, 15:24
One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)

Goga
02-11-11, 16:10
One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)
Interesting point! According to me the Iberians in the Caucasus are older than the Iberians in Spain. And the Iberians in Southwest Europe mixed with the E folks!

Look for Sarmatia north of Iberia, Persia southwest of Iberia and Media southeast of Iberia! And Albania bordering the Caspian Sea east of Iberia

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6368/771pxiberiamapru.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Georgia

Wilhelm
02-11-11, 17:47
One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)
Let's not exaggerate. The G2a in Spain is very low, and other parts of Europe have much more (Switzerland, Austria, Italy,..)

spongetaro
02-11-11, 18:02
Looks like G2a was the victim of both local mesolithic people and R1b people.


Actually middle eastern neolithic migrants might have been a minority in western Europe among the mesolithic I2a1, I2a2, Em81 and pre I1 people with maybe the exception of Italy.

It is just that those mesolithic people left less material so it is harder to find individuals for testing unlike neolithic sites.

I think that when R1b S116 entered Iberia during the bronze age, most of the locals would have been I2a1 and Em81 people.

Knovas
02-11-11, 18:26
I agree spongetaro. However, E-M81 were still a minority in comparison with I2a1a* and similars. If not, the autosomal results would be fairly different today.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 18:46
I agree spongetaro. However, E-M81 were still a minority in comparison with I2a1a* and similars. If not, the autosomal results would be fairly different today.

It depends where.
the repartition of I2a1 and E-M81 broadly reflects that of the neolithic I think.
E-M81 in Western Iberia, Cantabria and Inner France. I2a1 in eastern Iberia, Northern Iberia, Sardinia and Aquitaine.

Also, I think that E-M81 is one of the main reason why Iberia and France cluster together.

Knovas
02-11-11, 19:23
French and Iberians cluster because of the West European and Mediterranean (mainly Southwestern) admixtures. E-M81 has little to do here, since there's very low North African admixture in Iberia today, no need to say in France...practically absent.

I agree that in the Western side of Iberia E-M81 sholud be higher in comparison with the rest, although autosomal data still reflects it was probably minor. As regards for Sardinia, autosomally speaking they are surely much less I2a1a* than any Iberian. Other haplogroups seem to had higher impact as whole there, so I guess that even considering today I2a1a* it's the dominant haplogroup, the number of people representing it, was never higher than the others. Also, the present distribution in Iberia show very low levels in comparison with ancient times, it cannot be considered to take conclusions with the amount of R1b.

As I said many times, the Euro7 Calculator is quite ilustrative to understand this, and I hope the incoming Dodecad v4 will be based on the same.

One must think the following: If R1b was really absent a very long time ago, then, ¿what is the amount of Southwestern detected by admixutre in all Iberia? No better candidate than I2a1a* and similars.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 19:30
French and Iberians cluster because of the West European and Mediterranean (mainly Southwestern) admixtures. E-M81 has little to do here, since there's very low North African admixture in Iberia today, no need to say in France...practically absent.

E-M81 might be included in the Med admixture otherwise North African wouldn't have some much Med admixturet

Knovas
02-11-11, 19:35
Wrong.

North Africans have that Mediterranean admixture primarily because of the haplogroups H1, H3 and V. The major MtDNA linages in all North Africa, no need to remind their huge presence in Europe.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 19:38
BTW those E-M81 didn't have (I think) a look totally different from I2a1 people. Look at some Kabyle like Zinedine Zidane or Samir Nasri. They are white but probably E-M81. ZZ could be taken for a Sardinian (I2a1)...

spongetaro
02-11-11, 19:39
Wrong.

North Africans have that Mediterranean admixture primarily because of the haplogroups H1, H3 and V. The major MtDNA linages in all North Africa, no need to remind their huge presence in Europe.


If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture

Knovas
02-11-11, 19:46
You refer to ethnic Berbers, and for your information, the ones who really are, absolutely lack the Mediterranean admixture being almost enterily made of E-M81 and U6 MtDna. Easy noticiable while checking the Mozabite's population portrait from Dodecad.

The most ethnic ones are almost 100% Northwest African component. Main Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., are a different story. They have the mentioned influences, giving them apreciable levels of Mediterranean (but not only Southwestern variant, also Southeastern).

Knovas
02-11-11, 19:51
If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture
Be serious please, haplogroup distribution not always match perfectly. According to your E-M81 argument, they sholud have 0% Mediterranean then, and the show almost 15%. I think it's enough significant.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 19:55
Sorry to go completely offtopic, but my feeling is that Kabyle like Zidane and mesolithic E-M81 that cross Gibraltar detroit had similar looking. Not far from that of Sardinian people. The med admixture could have been prevalant in those people that's why you don't find much Northwest African admixture in Iberian and French nowadays.http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4981704205_86f2bb643f.jpg Sardinian man

http://images.maxifoot.fr/benzema-zidane-2.jpg Karim Benzema and Zinedine Zidane

Knovas
02-11-11, 20:01
That's not the point. You can consider they are more or less similar, it doesn't matter. The point was you said they contributed to spread Mediterranean admixture, and I'm telling you that ethnic Berbers are 100% Northwest African. So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 20:20
So this ethnicity in its pure form thousands of years ago, was abslotuly 0% Mediterranean (the same as today's preserved Berbers). Impossible to have brought this admixture into Europe when it was lacking.

In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.
http://www.kabyle.com/archives/IMG/art580-1.gif

Taranis
02-11-11, 20:27
In 3000 BC, Spain would have been 100% Mediterranean and you assume that North African had the same admixture Thousands of years ago. Then I was not talking about ethnic berber but Coastal North African like Kabyle.
As you see in the map, Proto Berber came from Sahara while the mechta people of the Mediterranean coast are much like the Guanches of the canary islands.
Today, there is between 30% and 40% of Med admixture where in the mesolithic you could find those mechta people.
The ethnic berber came from Sahara and therefore brought the Northwest African admixture.
http://www.kabyle.com/archives/IMG/art580-1.gif

I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.

Knovas
02-11-11, 20:30
Wrong again, you are twisting all things.

I don't assume North Africa had the same admixture as today, that's something you already invented. Thousands of years ago North Africa was Berber dominated, they are considered the most native ones to North Africa, and that's why they score the highest Northwest African, I think it's easy to understand, but to make it easy keep this in mind:

Berber = Native to North Africa = E-M81 + U6 = Northwest African component.

The 30%-40% you are talking about it belongs to other peoples who replaced the original inhabitants of North Africa. The same happens with other autosomes as Neo African, Palaeo African, Southwest Asian, etc. So Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., belong to mixed ethnicities, while ethnic Berbers don't. They are a singular people, and they lack the Mediterranean admixture if they are well preserved.

To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 20:40
I'm a tad confused here. Are you saying that the Neolithic population of Northwest Africa would have been Afroasiatic, or pre-Afro-Asiatic? After all, the Kabyles speak a Berber-language too, and from what little is known about their languages the Guanches too spoke a Berber (or at least Afroasiatic) language.

The coast of North west Africa had a Afro asiatic speaking population since the end of the mesolithic.
As you said, Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language . I admit that this map is really confusing since, from what I've just read, Berber language was brought from the east (not the south like I said in the previous post) by the Capsian (yellow) who were proto Mediterranean people (according to anthropology) and linked with the Combe Capelle man found in Europe.

So Afro-Asiatic language yes but Med admixture.
As for the North-West African admixture I don't know wether It is post or pre-berber.

spongetaro
02-11-11, 20:45
To make it short: E-M81 does not match any Mediterranean or other European admixture.

According to anthropology, the Capsian who populated North Africa since mesolithic are Proto Mediterranean people.
Obvioulsy E-M81 makes part of the Mediterranean admixture in Iberia and France hence the absence of North West African admixture.

Kardu
02-11-11, 20:50
Let's not exaggerate. The G2a in Spain is very low, and other parts of Europe have much more (Switzerland, Austria, Italy,..)
Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..

Knovas
02-11-11, 20:52
Obviously not, but you should check the population portrait with all the Mozabites listed to understand it. The admixture comming from North Africa and preserved till present days is just very low. That simple, and not so difficult to accept.

Knovas
02-11-11, 22:08
Ethnic name to spread over a population there is no need for majority, e.g. same Hungarians among which Hun/Magyar trace is minimal or Bulgarians who have minimal Turkic... or the very Turks among which Oguz are less than 10%..
¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.

Kardu
02-11-11, 23:28
¿But there's really (or was) a region in the Caucasus called Iberia? Really suprising.

I see what you mean and it's interesting. I must admit finding the connection is not an easy task, but ancient G2a could be the best starting point.

However, it's clear that in genetic terms very little of this survived. In the best of situations, the Southeastern reported in the Euro7 Calculator could help in the speculation of a migratory way, since the West Asian admixture appears always very low. But again, Romans surely contributed in the spread of that component, so it becomes really difficult.

Georgia was known as Iberia to Greeks, Romans and Byzantine. The name seems to be connected to Beri - the ancient cult of Wolf, totem animal of old Georgian tribes. Historical sources indicate that in battles Georgians wore wolf skins over their armor. Name Georgia itself derives from old Persian Gurgan/Gorgan which Greeks borrowed as Georgia meaning the land of Wolves.

The cult of the Wolf survives till now in a seasonal kind of folk theater performance called Beri-kaoba where participants wear wolf masks and is quite similar to a scene depicted on 4000 years old Trialeti culture artifact photo of which I add to this post.

http://www.archaeologygeorgia.com/

Knovas
02-11-11, 23:51
Oh I see, thanks.

But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Kardu
02-11-11, 23:58
Ber- is a Georgian/pre-Georgian word for wolf, not Greek, so the connection if it exists must be deeper.

Alan
03-11-11, 02:52
Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.

I agree J2a might have an Indo European, Caucasian root and has not much to do with the Neolthic imo.

Something interesting I found.


Two Y-DNA Haplogroups are supposed to be connected with Iranic people Haplogroup J2 and R1a1

J2a:

Haplogroup J2 especially the subcadle J2a is frequently found among almost all groups of Iranic people. In comparison with the Haplogroup R1a1, J2 is not only restricted to geographically eastern and western Iranic populations, but also found among north-western and south-western Iranic populations such as the Bakhtiaris and Mazanderani,[70][71] as well as geographically north-western Iranic Ossetians.[72] Despite its supposed origin in the fertile crescent, J2a is also found among Iranic populations in the east such as the Yagnobi which are of Soghdian origin[73] as well as the Parsis of India.[74] Beside the relatively high percentage among the Yagnobis in Central Asia, other Iranic populations tend to have a higher frequency of J2a when compared to neighboring Turkic populations. The relatively strong presence of J2a among Ossetians as well as Yagnobis proves distant from the supposed Mesopotamian origin region of J2, are carriers of this Haplogroup.

In the Indo-Iranian context, the occurrence of J2a in South Asia is limited to caste populations, with the highest frequencies found among northern areas of South Asia.[75][76] Compared with R1a1, J2a shows a more conservative distribution, stronger limited to Indo-Iranian origin groups.[75]

R1a1:

Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has been supposed to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[77] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%), both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[77][78] Apart from these two groups, high frequencies of R1a1 are also found in Pashtuns (44.8%)[79] and eastern parts of the Iranian Highlands up to frequencies of 35%, similar to Northern India,[80] while Western Iran based on Iranians sampled (52 Samples from the western part of the country) appears to have had little genetic influence from the supposed R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians about 10%,to attributed to language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model in a similar manner which occurred in Europe and India. In this regard, it is likely that the Kavir and Lut deserts in the center of Iran have acted as significant barriers to gene flow.[77]

Genetic studies conducted by Cavalli-Sforza have revealed that Iranians have weak correlation with Near Eastern groups, and are closer to surrounding Indo-Europeans speaking populations.[81] This study is partially supported by another one, based on Y-Chromosome haplogroups.[82]

The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris river of Iraq to the Indus of Pakistan. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions. These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, as well as links to Europe and Semitic populations that live in close proximity such as the Arab and Jews.[83][84][85][86]

Another recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azarbaijani).[87] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran.[69] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians in Iran. Azaris of Iran also show very close genetic ties to Kurds.[88]

Note that the Yaghnobis speak a Sogdian dialect, which is according to Heredotus a Scythian dialect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics

Segia2
03-11-11, 12:28
Oh I see, thanks.

But then, the name for Iberian Peninsula, could be also related to the cult of Wolf, but in more realistic way. Wolfs have lived in Iberia even before any human did. El "Lobo Iberico" is well known here, and who knows if the Greeks used the same name here too, while noticing the presence of multiple autoctonous Wolfs.

I can't think in another reason to call it the same, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Greeks used the name to designate the inhabitants living near the river Iberus (maybe related to basque "ibar/ibai") In other words, it is the river that gives name to the whole peninsula.

Knovas
03-11-11, 12:40
If you are right, then, it has nothing to do with the (Pre)Georgian "Ber" used for Wolf.

Kardu
03-11-11, 13:13
Greeks used the name to designate the inhabitants living near the river Iberus (maybe related to basque "ibar/ibai") In other words, it is the river that gives name to the whole peninsula.

Iberians lived on way much wider area than river Ebro basin. And it might be vice versa that the river got the name from a tribal designation..

Segia2
03-11-11, 13:28
Iberians lived on way much wider area than river Ebro basin. And it might be vice versa that the river got the name from a tribal designation..

Yes, they lived in a wider area, but the first that contacted with greeks were those living in the Ebro basin and nearby costal zones. As I posted above, the hydronym has a possible match with basque "ibar/ibai", wich means river/fertile lowland. And makes a lot of sense.

Ethnical names usualy don't give fluvial names; in any case it would be the contrary. However, and judging by texts and epygraphy, iberians didn't called themselves iberians.

Segia2
03-11-11, 13:34
If you are right, then, it has nothing to do with the (Pre)Georgian "Ber" used for Wolf.

Nothing to do. If we want to associate a geographical term with an animal, this would be "Hispania", possibly from phoenician hi-spn-ya, more or less translated as "region of the rabbits coast". Roman numismatics seems to confirm this theory, by using in some coins the adjective "cuniculosa" (plenty of rabbits) to refer Hispania.

Kardu
03-11-11, 13:51
Yes, they lived in a wider area, but the first that contacted with greeks were those living in the Ebro basin and nearby costal zones. As I posted above, the hydronym has a possible match with basque "ibar/ibai", wich means river/fertile lowland. And makes a lot of sense.

Ethnical names usualy don't give fluvial names; in any case it would be the contrary. However, and judging by texts and epygraphy, iberians didn't called themselves iberians.
Neither did Georgians call themselves Iberians as such:) Iberians of Hispania were not a monolithic ethnicity neither were Iberians of the Caucasus. One powerful tribe/cult followers could spread a name over a larger union.

Anyway, I do not claim that it's true, but considering the presence of old G2a in both Hispania and the Caucasus, similar names by classic authors to the populations of two regions makes my proposal at least a valid working hypothesis :)

P.S. I was just checking info about the Wolf cult on the territory of Catalonia, which I've heard in the Museum of Archaeology in Barcelona. Maybe Knovas would know more.

Knovas
03-11-11, 14:08
Yo are refering to something like this very ancient discoveries: http://www.mac.cat/eng/layout/set/print/Branches/Barcelona/Collections/Iberian-culture

The two "Pàteras" have a Wolf head (cap de llop) in the middle. It seems that was common in all the territory wich was Iberian dominated (refering to ancient culture), not only in Catalonia. You can check the text and the images in more detail.

But I see the two main objects come from Castellet de Banyoles-Tivissa-Ribera d'Ebre (Southern Catalonia).

Kardu
03-11-11, 14:37
Thank you, Knovas! Fascinating!
I also remember the guide explicitly mentioned the existence of the Wolf cult and wolf deity among Iberians of Catalonia and one habit which is 100% identical to the caucaisan counterpart, namely Iberian warriors would add as many arrows/lances to their fallen comrade's grave as many enemies he had slayed during his lifetime.
Unfortunately I was with a larger group, the guide was speaking in Catalan and with my Italian and Spanish I could understand only this much :) And later I did not have time to ask her about more...

Goga
03-11-11, 18:32
I agree J2a might have an Indo European, Caucasian root and has not much to do with the Neolthic imo.

Something interesting I found.



Note that the Yaghnobis speak a Sogdian dialect, which is according to Heredotus a Scythian dialect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#GeneticsYes especially this is very important paragraph:

"J2 is not only restricted to geographically eastern and western Iranic populations, but also found among north-western and south-western Iranic populations such as the Bakhtiaris and Mazanderani, as well as geographically north-western Iranic Ossetians. Despite its supposed origin in the fertile crescent, J2a is also found among Iranic populations in the east such as the Yagnobi which are of Soghdian origin as well as the Parsis of India

The relatively strong presence of J2a among Ossetians as well as Yagnobis proves distant from the supposed Mesopotamian origin region of J2, are carriers of this Haplogroup."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics

Sile
04-11-11, 23:33
Yo are refering to something like this very ancient discoveries: http://www.mac.cat/eng/layout/set/print/Branches/Barcelona/Collections/Iberian-culture

The two "Pàteras" have a Wolf head (cap de llop) in the middle. It seems that was common in all the territory wich was Iberian dominated (refering to ancient culture), not only in Catalonia. You can check the text and the images in more detail.

But I see the two main objects come from Castellet de Banyoles-Tivissa-Ribera d'Ebre (Southern Catalonia).

This would not have anything to do with Strabo story of the Iberian wolf and Gallic horses ...would it?

Knovas
07-11-11, 02:48
I did not heard nothing about this Sile. If it refers to a very ancient period, I'd say "maybe" xD.

Wilhelm
07-11-11, 05:35
According to anthropology, the Capsian who populated North Africa since mesolithic are Proto Mediterranean people.
Obvioulsy E-M81 makes part of the Mediterranean admixture in Iberia and France hence the absence of North West African admixture.
What you say doesn't make any sense. Mediterranean is found all over Europe at non-trivial levels and it peaks in Sardinians.

hawklutz
08-11-11, 15:52
The findings do not, in my opinion, contradict the Greek-and-Roman E1b1b1 spread theory. The pre-Greek E-v13 might have been superseded, the same as G2a , with the advancement of R1b and celebrated a substantial comeback with the development of Greek colonies.

quaquaraqua
31-12-11, 02:41
Sorry to go completely offtopic, but my feeling is that Kabyle like Zidane and mesolithic E-M81 that cross Gibraltar detroit had similar looking. Not far from that of Sardinian people. The med admixture could have been prevalant in those people that's why you don't find much Northwest African admixture in Iberian and French nowadays.

Sardinian man

Karim Benzema and Zinedine Zidane

lol the first guy is simply a dinaro-med heavy tanned because he is photographed in summer, maybe he isn't either sardinian considering that people behind you are not dressing sardinian costumes, probably he belongs to a non sardinian folk group invited in Sardinia.
dinaro-meds are mainly common in south italy, sicily and some part of balkans, surely he hasn't anything of north african.

spongetaro
31-12-11, 02:51
lol the first guy is simply a dinaro-med heavy tanned because he is photographed in summer, maybe he isn't either sardinian considering that people behind you are not dressing sardinian costumes, probably he belongs to a non sardinian folk group invited in Sardinia.
dinaro-meds are mainly common in south italy, sicily and some part of balkans, surely he hasn't anything of north african.

See by yourself if they are Sardinians or not

http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/pool/page5/

quaquaraqua
01-01-12, 04:22
See by yourself if they are Sardinians or not


and so? every person shot by tourists in Sardinia should be ethnically sardinian because is posted on flickr? that photo was shot during the ufifesta in the town of macomer, a folk festival where are invited folk groups from many parts of italy and also foreign groups, and the man is only a simple dinaro med tanned, photographed the 4th september (summer), so fully european looking, he could fit in many countries of southern europe.

MOESAN
27-01-12, 20:36
waiting more data, here are ma thoughts:
(knowing that it's uncertain linking Y haplo's to autosomals:)
ZZ (not pure) presents some Combe-Capelle features (as some Sardinians) but I bet C-C is linked to Y-I2a1a - not to Y-E1b-M81 -
E-M81 could have put feet in Iberia at the Neolithic (Capsian?), and at that period the crossing around Gibraltar was maybe dangerous enough: more males than females? the Y-E-M81 not overwhealmy dominant nowadays (5% to 12% perhaps?) and only in Western Spain) didn't played aso big role for autosomals, even their females - and Kabyles as a whole are very far to be all on the ZZ model - this kind of shape could have been send in N-Maghreb by SOME OF the bearers of the 'mediterranean autosomals' (a package that could be broken out in the future?) whatever their Y HG's (possibly I2a1a) - the previous 'aquitan' phenotype is I think an reduced (body) evolution of an old mixture of Cro-Magnons types and Combe-Capelle types, and it's found yet in a region where we find some I2a1a... (Central Eastern Spain, Gascogne, Sardigna ...) - just for the fun

Knovas
28-01-12, 00:27
What quaquaraqua says must be considered. However, the problem is bigger than that: using 1 phenotypical example (even if ethnic Sardinian) to prove all Sardinians look the same way and, furthermore, linking them strongly with E-M81 as well as doing so with Iberians and French...you know, it becomes too much complicated and strange.

neonimrod
17-08-12, 21:50
This is what I have discover so far Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology

1) That the E Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to? the usage of Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called Caucasians)

2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
3) Googled I found that the E-V13 gene pool are Original Roman-Trojan genes (Since Saturn Jupiter and Zeus are associated with Nimrod, a descendant of Cush via Ham, and histories of Nimrod seeking refuge on the 7 hills of Rome and from that point on the Original Romans called him Saturn, Originating the Feast of Saturnilia on December 25)

4) The E-V13 gene root Ancestor was Nimrod the Powerful Hunter Before the Lord also called as well the Orion, Zeus and Jupiter? and Saturn etc

5) Ham would be the E Halopgroup ==> Cush (Cronus)= E-M35 ==> Nimrod (Zeus)= E-V13 ==> Dardanus = Dardania ==> Tros = Troy (Trojans)==> Ilus =(Illum) Illyria (Albania)==> Latinus = Latin (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos) Lateo "to lie hid" or the hidden one)==> Romulos = Founder of the Roman Empire ==> Me an E-V13

6) The Clue for my findings were the Ethiopians and the Yemeni E-M35 as they fit perfectly the Biblical account of Being the descendants of Cush

7)Famous Hamitics E-M35 include Albert Einstein, The wright Brothers, and even Hittler. However looks like throughout history there has been lots of converts of this Hamitic Branch to Jud

zanipolo
17-08-12, 22:49
This is what I have discover so far Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology

1) That the E Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to? the usage of Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called Caucasians)

2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
3) Googled I found that the E-V13 gene pool are Original Roman-Trojan genes (Since Saturn Jupiter and Zeus are associated with Nimrod, a descendant of Cush via Ham, and histories of Nimrod seeking refuge on the 7 hills of Rome and from that point on the Original Romans called him Saturn, Originating the Feast of Saturnilia on December 25)

4) The E-V13 gene root Ancestor was Nimrod the Powerful Hunter Before the Lord also called as well the Orion, Zeus and Jupiter? and Saturn etc

5) Ham would be the E Halopgroup ==> Cush (Cronus)= E-M35 ==> Nimrod (Zeus)= E-V13 ==> Dardanus = Dardania ==> Tros = Troy (Trojans)==> Ilus =(Illum) Illyria (Albania)==> Latinus = Latin (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos) Lateo "to lie hid" or the hidden one)==> Romulos = Founder of the Roman Empire ==> Me an E-V13

6) The Clue for my findings were the Ethiopians and the Yemeni E-M35 as they fit perfectly the Biblical account of Being the descendants of Cush

7)Famous Hamitics E-M35 include Albert Einstein, The wright Brothers, and even Hittler. However looks like throughout history there has been lots of converts of this Hamitic Branch to Jud

what about the Japhetic ...the non semitic "brother" who had these sons



Gomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer): Scythians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians), Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples), Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs), Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats), Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians), Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_people), Picts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts), Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people), Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_people) (Teutons);
Magog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magog_%28Bible%29): Scythians, Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), Swedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes), Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns), Huns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns), Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs), Magyars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars) (Hungarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians)), Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people);
Madai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madai): Mitanni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni), Mannai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannai), Medes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mede), more generally Persians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people), or even more generally Indo-Aryans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans);
Javan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan): Ionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionia) (Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks))
Tubal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubal): Tabali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabal), Circassians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians), Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians), Italics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Italic_peoples), Iberians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians), Basques (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people);
Meshech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshech): Phrygians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia), Meskheti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskheti), Moschoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki), Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians);
Tiras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiras): Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians), Etruscans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), Jutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes), Teutons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teuton) (Germans).


Tubal dominated Iberia....I cannot see how his "uncle" Hamitic encrouched on japheth's sons lands

neonimrod
18-08-12, 09:44
Very good point zanipolo, the Japhetics descendents settle as you mention above, I totally agree with it, however our Hamitic branch via Nimrod settle in Rome, Albania and Kosovo, Greece, Macedonia and Montegro, the exact places where the E-V13 is at it highests. Nimrod was called Saturn and worshiped by the early Romans, they celebrated his birthday with the feast was called Saturnilia which is December 25, to this day all Freemason worship him as the first Mason. you can google there is allot of info regarding Saturn and Nimrod or Nimrod and Jupiter, and the shoe fits perfectly as the DNA footprint of us his descendents.

Kardu
18-08-12, 13:58
Where do Amerindians and Australian Aborigines fit in the Biblical story combined with genetics?

neonimrod
18-08-12, 16:54
most Amerindians belong to Halopgroup Q, if you check the DNA research sites you will see that Halopgroup P is both Parent of Q and R, so their common ancestor is Japheth.

as for us E-V13 it was easy as the Etiopians and Yemenis still live there so it was easy to retrace the Biblical accounts and Greek and Roman Mythologies plus DNA

neonimrod
18-08-12, 17:32
because when it comes to Nimrod, it is say he went to rule as well Assyria, as you know Ashur was a Semite, and when you see that on the Balkans and Romans the E-V13 is coming together with the J2 you start to see a patern there, as well as I mentioned above Nimrod's Father is Cush as on the Biblical account Cush is as well the Father of the Etiopians and Yemeni among others.

Nimrod wa
Hamitic and Kushite
An E-V13
Mighty Hunter before the Lord(Orion)
First King of Earth
Builder of cities
The First to train dogs for hunting
The First to train the horse for riding (Centaurus)
Father of the Romans-Latins
Known as Zeus-Jupiter-Saturn
Born on December 25 that's why his children the Romans or Latins celebrated the feast of Saturnilia that day :-)]

Built
Babel (Babylon), Erech, Accad and Calneh, all in the land of Shinar was built by Nimrod, Then He built in the territory of Assyria Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah and Resen Between Nineveh and Calah

Sennevini
18-08-12, 20:19
Why are you trying to fit genetic trees in the ones called in the Bible? You have to be careful with using ancient sources.

oriental
18-08-12, 22:09
I read somewhere that Socrates had African features so he could have been Hg E. Aristotle was a Macedon as he was Alexander's tutor.

Beast
18-08-12, 22:30
@oriental Haplgorups have nothing to do with the way you look. I know of an Albanian girl who did a genetic test and she got E-V13. She has blue eyes and light hair and you could easily confuse her for being a Swede or Norwegian.

oriental
18-08-12, 22:38
@oriental Haplgorups have nothing to do with the way you look. I know of an Albanian girl who did a genetic test and she got E-V13. She has blue eyes and light hair and you could easily confuse her for being a Swede or Norwegian.

Of course, one's looks are determined by the culture. During the time of Socrates there was more segregation. By modern time after 2,000 years assuming 20-years as one generation, it would be 200 generations the Hg E group living in a European environment and with gene flow would look like modern European e.g. Wright Brothers, Albert Einstein, Lyndon Baines Johnson, Napolean Bonaparte and Adolphe Hitler who promoted the "Aryan" race not being Aryan himself.

Beast
18-08-12, 23:18
Ber- is a Georgian/pre-Georgian word for wolf, not Greek, so the connection if it exists must be deeper.

This is very interesting. Seems like allot of Caucasian people call themselves Wolves. for example Chechens identify as wolves. In Chechen Wolf means Borz.. similar to the Georgian word Ber. They call themselves Borz.

neonimrod
19-08-12, 05:26
I kind of agree, this way our Base Halopgroup E-M35 is the richest in diversity so far,
as You said some are white you can find them in Europe, North America and Latin America, Kosovars, Albanians...
others are Brown like the Egyptians, Moroccans, the Libyans Latin Americans, South Italians, Greeks, Macedonians, Kosovars, Alabanians...
while others are Blacks like the Ethiopians and Somalis to mentions some...

however as per the Oriental look that is because the Chinese have allot in common with Halopgroup E, although the Orientals or most of the Orientals are Halopgroup O, they are Descendents of Ham via Canaan son Sine.
As well the Japanese who are D, this ramification almost is non existent as it was done to differenciate them of E but they are the same as us with our same Ancestor Ham.
This is why you can see that most of the eyes of the E-V13 or E-M35s have the eagle eye or some extraforeskin above the eyes, just like the eagles, this is why in Albania we are called the sons of the Eagle.

Kardu
19-08-12, 11:50
most Amerindians belong to Halopgroup Q, if you check the DNA research sites you will see that Halopgroup P is both Parent of Q and R, so their common ancestor is Japheth.

as for us E-V13 it was easy as the Etiopians and Yemenis still live there so it was easy to retrace the Biblical accounts and Greek and Roman Mythologies plus DNA So 'Japheth' was haplogroup P? :):):) You didn't answer about the Australian aborigens

Kardu
19-08-12, 11:53
Yes, it seems like the Wolf was one of the most ancient deities of the Caucasian peoples, having roots in prehistoric shamanic practices.

And there are interesting parallels with Scandinavian Úlfhéðnar and Berserks.

Taranis
19-08-12, 14:18
neonimrod,

while I see that you have attempted to give quite a thought attempting to correlate biblical genealogy with genetics, you're operating wholly under a large set false assumptions. The first is the assumption that the biblical genealogy must be assumed to be correct, and it obviously cannot be assumed to be correct since it involves tracing all of humanity back to the survivors of the Deluge. A deluge in the biblical sense never happened (there's a good deal of evidence that the Black Sea flooding event that occured around 7500 years before present may have been the inspiration for the biblical myth), and asserting that it literally happened makes you move into the realm of creationists. At that note, it should be pointed out that biblical Deluge story is not the original, it was merely borrowed from the Gilgamesh Epic of Sumerians - thus also casting doubt on the claim of biblical authority.

Finally I'd like to point out another flaw: you're trying to include ethnic groups which the writers of the bible must have been clearly unaware. The "known world" of the ancient Jews basically included only the Near East, and they had no knowledge of western or northern Europe, let alone of Australia or the Americas.

I might want to point out that in early stages (well into the 19th century), linguists attempted a similar classification as you do know, trying to trace language families to Ham, Sem and Japeth - they obviously failed. One of these terms, the "Semitic" languages, are still used by linguistics today, but the other concepts obviously failed. Linguists realized that what they deemed "Hamitic" languages was actually not a natural group, and that the Semitic languages should be included, which is why we refer to the former "Hamito-Semitic" languages as "Afroasiatic" languages.

Finally, the ancient Jews were as unaware of genetics as they were of linguistics. So, in a nutshell, a cursory analysis of your idea shows that it is absolutely non-working.

Maciamo
20-08-12, 08:52
@oriental Haplgorups have nothing to do with the way you look. I know of an Albanian girl who did a genetic test and she got E-V13. She has blue eyes and light hair and you could easily confuse her for being a Swede or Norwegian.

So you know a girl with a Y-chromosome ? Impressive. Except that we call them boys/men, not girls.

MOESAN
20-08-12, 23:51
autosomals are only loosely linked to Y or mtDNA, only on a statistical point of view - phenotypes and autosomals are very more tightly linked one together - even in a statistical meaning, Y DNA can know a big enough drift by male elite desequilibrium (it is my personal problem with my first believings and my present confusion concerning Y-R1b in Western Europe, even if I have not made completely my switch off yet)- I think it is still interesting trying to discover some %s links between these different elements of cognition, but yes it is very useless speak about few individuals phenotypes when trying to find populations origins and admixtures: it is not saying phenotypes have no worth, but only at a big scale -
for this thread, I think it would be necessery to have the detailed SNP's of Y-G in Iberia because G is not so rare (in Portugal it is common enough) but it seams to me having more than one origin (Neolithic, Alani, and in North Iberia (Cantabrias, Asturias) a possible south-Germany or Switzerland origin, mixed with other HGs (a lot of possible hypothesis and dates, from BB to Late Bronze)

neonimrod
22-08-12, 06:32
neonimrod,

while I see that you have attempted to give quite a thought attempting to correlate biblical genealogy with genetics, you're operating wholly under a large set false assumptions. The first is the assumption that the biblical genealogy must be assumed to be correct, and it obviously cannot be assumed to be correct since it involves tracing all of humanity back to the survivors of the Deluge. A deluge in the biblical sense never happened (there's a good deal of evidence that the Black Sea flooding event that occured around 7500 years before present may have been the inspiration for the biblical myth), and asserting that it literally happened makes you move into the realm of creationists. At that note, it should be pointed out that biblical Deluge story is not the original, it was merely borrowed from the Gilgamesh Epic of Sumerians - thus also casting doubt on the claim of biblical authority.

Finally I'd like to point out another flaw: you're trying to include ethnic groups which the writers of the bible must have been clearly unaware. The "known world" of the ancient Jews basically included only the Near East, and they had no knowledge of western or northern Europe, let alone of Australia or the Americas.

I might want to point out that in early stages (well into the 19th century), linguists attempted a similar classification as you do know, trying to trace language families to Ham, Sem and Japeth - they obviously failed. One of these terms, the "Semitic" languages, are still used by linguistics today, but the other concepts obviously failed. Linguists realized that what they deemed "Hamitic" languages was actually not a natural group, and that the Semitic languages should be included, which is why we refer to the former "Hamito-Semitic" languages as "Afroasiatic" languages.

Finally, the ancient Jews were as unaware of genetics as they were of linguistics. So, in a nutshell, a cursory analysis of your idea shows that it is absolutely non-working.


I find interesting that although Shem or Sem for Semite is fictional supposedly as Ham or the Hamitics, they still chose to use the term Semitics?

Science, Religion and even Mythology have always been manipulated by certain groups, and on science on the Genetic side they claim the E-V13 as farmers, what a doubious claim, then the Bible explicitly talks about Cush and Nimrod, yet He is trying to be discredited by the Semites and the Japhetics
and Mythology even Saturn is clearly Nimrod, they picture him totally as anything but an E-v13

the whole world is divided in the following way:
Either you are
1) Hamitic (Halopgroups D or E or O among others)
2)Semitic (Halopgroups I or J)
3)Caucasian-aryan-Japhethic (R or P or Q or G Halopgroups)

yet over and over we see the last two groups falsely claim the the Hamitic achievements as follows:

The Semites falsely claim as Semites the following:
Albert Einstein He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Shalom Ben Amram Samaritan High Priest He is an E-M35 a Hamitic

Japhethics or Caucasians Falsely Claim as Caucasians the Following:
The Wright Brothers they are E-M35 Hamitics
Hittler He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Pope Paul V He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Caravaggio He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
So see guys E-M35 comes in White Brown Yellow Black
And it can be found in:
Europe Latin America North America the Middle East Asia and Africa

Kardu
22-08-12, 11:53
Am I missing A and B? :) :)

Yetos
22-08-12, 17:10
So you know a girl with a Y-chromosome ? Impressive. Except that we call them boys/men, not girls.


sometimes boys go to Kazablanka or Brazil, make a surgery and become girls, at least in pappers, girls with Y-Dna :wary2:

MOESAN
22-08-12, 19:36
I find interesting that although Shem or Sem for Semite is fictional supposedly as Ham or the Hamitics, they still chose to use the term Semitics?

Science, Religion and even Mythology have always been manipulated by certain groups, and on science on the Genetic side they claim the E-V13 as farmers, what a doubious claim, then the Bible explicitly talks about Cush and Nimrod, yet He is trying to be discredited by the Semites and the Japhetics
and Mythology even Saturn is clearly Nimrod, they picture him totally as anything but an E-v13

the whole world is divided in the following way:
Either you are
1) Hamitic (Halopgroups D or E or O among others)
2)Semitic (Halopgroups I or J)
3)Caucasian-aryan-Japhethic (R or P or Q or G Halopgroups)

yet over and over we see the last two groups falsely claim the the Hamitic achievements as follows:

The Semites falsely claim as Semites the following:
Albert Einstein He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Shalom Ben Amram Samaritan High Priest He is an E-M35 a Hamitic

Japhethics or Caucasians Falsely Claim as Caucasians the Following:
The Wright Brothers they are E-M35 Hamitics
Hittler He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Pope Paul V He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Caravaggio He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
So see guys E-M35 comes in White Brown Yellow Black
And it can be found in:
Europe Latin America North America the Middle East Asia and Africa


what are you trying to explain here?
hamitic is a linguistic term, even if surely tied to an ancient ethny at first
Hitler, Wright Brothers, Caravaggio and others are all pure hamitic descendants???
surely Y-E1b M35 has something to dot AT THE ORIGIN with some Chamitic tribes and 'red-sea' autosomals, but as you DO know (or ought to learn very quickly) the Y chromosme in IMPORTANT crossings of ligneages (say: in a population where it reaches the 80% it looses a few, where it does not reach 15% it looses the bulk of them) can loose its origin "partners" genes fast enough -
+ yet the Semites (# Hamites) even if rich for Y-J1 had Y-E1bM35 for a long time in their ligneages
maybe too much people does not learn correctly the basic needed knowledge and is ready to accept every kind of phantasmagoric theories?
and what is this picture made of Saturn? by who?

MOESAN
22-08-12, 19:52
in fact, E-M35 is a very loosely defined HG - the most of the Europeans with y-E are E-M35>>V68>>M78 - hamitic populations can have this SNPs but they have too very more often numerous others sub-HGs downstream to E-M35 - others members here can refine all that - and the E-M35>>Z827>>V257...>>M81 carry other autosomals even if not so far in origins...

neonimrod
23-08-12, 21:29
All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages as follows:

1) Hamtics:
would be Halopgroup DE O > Halopgrou
D and Halopgroup E Halopgroup 0(Original Romans=E-V13, Latin Americans, Egyptians, Chinese, Ethiopians, Libyans, Morrocans, Palestinians...)

2)Semites:
IJ (S2) > J (M304) > J1 (M267) and J2 (M175) (Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Iraquis, Chechens, Jordans...)

3)Japhethics-Caucasians would be
P (M45) > R (M207) > R1 (M173) > R1b (M343) > R1b1 (P25) > R1b1c (M269) (Rusians, Slavics, Celtics)
P (M45) > Q (M45) (Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans)

Kardu
23-08-12, 21:43
and who are hg A and B? Martians?

(this is getting boring already)

neonimrod
31-08-12, 21:02
This is why we need to investigate all the posible facts, we need science the bible, the mythology we find those have been abuse over and over by certain races and groups,

As per your question on A and B it seems they are in their ancestral state, A would be people with Adam's DNA, B would be Noah DNA


For sake of Clarity I see that Most Jewish called themselves Semites, this is Due to the Fact that they think their earliest Ancestor was Shem who was Noah son, based on that All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages:

Adam -> Noah -> 3 sons (Japhet, Ham and Shem)

1) Hamtics:
would be Halopgroups D E O > Halopgroup D and Halopgroup E Halopgroup 0(Original Romans=E-V13, 55%Latin and 30%North Americans = E-V13 , Egyptians, Japanese (Halopgroup D) Chinese (halopgoup 0), Ethiopians, Libyans, Morrocans, Philisteans or now called in Latin Palestinians...)

2)Semites:
IJ (S2) > J (M304) > J1 (M267) and J2 (M175) (Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Iraquis, Chechens, Jordans...)

3)Japhethics-Aryans-Caucasians would be
P (M45) > R (M207) > R1 (M173) > R1b (M343) > R1b1 (P25) > R1b1c (M269) (Rusians, Slavics, Celtics)
P (M45) > Q (M45) (Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans)

On the Jewish writings we found that
E-M35 is Royal lineage Noah gave Ham the clothing Adam and Eve this is why Nimrod was able to Rule and be the first King of the world

4) Hamitics as Nation Builders
Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Nimrod -> Brutus founder of Britania, Latinus father of all Latins, Dardanus father of all Kosovars or Dardania, Illus father of all Illyrians, Tros father of the
Trojans, Romulus Father of all Romans etc etc etc
Nimrod Built
Babel (Babylon), Erech, Accad and Calneh, all in the land of Shinar was built by Nimrod, Then He built in the territory of Assyria Nineveh and Rehoboth-Ir and Calah and Resen Between Nineveh and
Calah

5) Hamitic Nation by countries:

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Halopgroup D -> Japanese, Tibetans, Tajiskistan

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Sine -> Halopgroup O -> Daxy Culture, Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) Southern China Southeast Asia, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, Burma

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Ethiopia, Yemen, Oman, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt, Palestine, Libya, Morrocco, Algeria, Kenya

6)The Hamitic Nation has the following colors (Our Melanin works perfectly as we have the greatest diversity):

Yellow Hamitics
Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Sine -> Halopgroup O -> Daxy Culture, Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) Southern China Southeast Asia, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, Burma

Brown and white Hamitics
Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Egypt, Palestine, Libya, Morrocco, Latin Americans, North Americans, Hispanics,
Romans (Romulus), Albanians (Illus, Illyria), Kosovo (Dardania Dardanus), Greece, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania
23% serbians, 20% bulgarians, 18% Italians and the 5% to 15% in all other countries in Europe

Black Hamites
Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Ethiopia, Yemen, Oman, Somalia, Sudan, Morrocco, Algeria, Kenya, India
Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Sine -> Halopgroup O -> Daxy Culture, Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) Southern China Southeast Asia, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, Burma

7) Hamitic Faces:

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Obama, Albert Einstein, Hittler, 40% of Jews/Israelis, Shalom Ben Amram ben Yitzhaq Samaritan High Priest, Wright Brothers, Me! and the Rest of E-M35s
Albanians Kosovars, Latin Americans, Egyptians etc etc, black white, brown and yellow!!

8) Genealogies of Famous

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Cush -> Nimrod

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Hittler (unfortunately but that would be his genealogy)

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Kosovars

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Albanians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Greeks

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Macedonians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> Montenegro

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> South Italians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> 75% Latin Americans

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> E-V13 (Nimrod)-> 40% North Americans

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Egyptians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Philisteans - Palestinians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Libyans

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Morrocans

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Ethiopians

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Sudan

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Kenya

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Obama

E (Ham)-> E-M35 (Cush)-> Albert Einstein

Taranis
31-08-12, 23:38
This is why we need to investigate all the posible facts, we need science the bible, the mythology we find those have been abuse over and over by certain races and groups,

As per your question on A and B it seems they are in their ancestral state, A would be people with Adam's DNA, B would be Noah DNA


For sake of Clarity I see that Most Jewish called themselves Semites, this is Due to the Fact that they think their earliest Ancestor was Shem who was Noah son, based on that All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages:

Adam -> Noah -> 3 sons (Japhet, Ham and Shem)

Before you continue posting such wildly imaginative stories, let me reiterate that the bible, in particular the old testament, has no authority of a historical narrative, and in particular that the story of Noah: it is clearly taken from a much older work, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and some phrases in it are borrowed, almost to the line.


On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.


4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.


Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed (a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
She lifted up the large flies (beads) which Anu had made for
his enjoyment(!):
'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli
around my neck,
may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them!


22And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

As you can evidently see, some of the sentences are uncannily similar. The story of Noah is clearly borrowed from the earlier Mesopotamian mythology, specifically the story of Utnapishim in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Akkadian Standard Version of the Epic of Gilgamesh was written approximately 800 years before the Tanakh (the five books of Moses).

Likewise, as everybody knows, the biblical genealogy is far too short to be in relation in any way to real life history and prehistory. While it is possible to reconstruct an Y-chromosomal "Adam", but this person was in no way the first human as the biblical Adam is imagined, nor was he the only human male alive: he was the only human alive at his time which still bears direct-line male descendants today. He also lived many times earlier than the bible would tell us (this is why people rightfully ridicule on the assertation of creationists that the world was only 6000 years old).

In summary, and I regret that I have to say this so directly and unflattering, there's absolutely no sense in what you are doing here.

neonimrod
03-09-12, 18:39
It does make sense, I want to know my true origins not the ones that are fabricated with lies just to ensure the self esteem over a group or another and I see that even the presumably cursed Canaanites are claimed as Semites because of their achievements, one of the examples would be the Phoenicians or Sidon the Canaanite son, a true Hamitic.

I believe as an E-V13 I have the duty to revive the Hamitic name, as He is my true ancestor. If the Semitics do and the Aryans do, why do I have to follow those lies and pretend I am a Caucausian from Japhet side? why do I have to prentend I am an R1? I am more close related to my Brothers the E-V13s Greeks, Macedonians, Montenegrans, South Italians, Egyptians, Palestinians, the 40% of Hamitic Jews, Lybians, Morrocans, Ethiopians, Yemenis ....


So if Most Jewish called themselves Semites, Due to the Fact that they think their earliest Ancestor was Shem who was Noah son, and the Aryan race based their Ancestry with Japhet, so therefore I am a true Hamitic. I am from the Hamitic Nation via Nimrod son of Cush.

Humanity is divided among 3 lineages:

Adam -> Noah -> 3 sons (Japhet, Ham and Shem)

1) Hamtics:
Halopgroups D E O

)Semites:
Halopgroups IJ


3)Japhethics-Aryans-Caucasians would be
Halopgroups P Q and R


Now I concentrate with Canaan son of Ham

Canaan

Canaan is Hamitic via Ham son of Noah

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan

His Hamitic sons are

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Sidon (Lebanon) Sidonians the Phoenicians

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Hittites (Turkey)

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Jebusites (Jerusalem JebuSALEM in Israel now)

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Sinites (Sine Chinese Halopgroup O )

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Amorites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Girgashites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Hivites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Arkites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Arvadites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Zemarites

Adam -> Noah -> Ham -> Canaan -> Hamathites


Son In short the Hamitic sons of Canaan are:
1.Sidonians, i.e. the Phoenicians
2.Hittites, children of Heth
3.Jebusites
4.Amorites
5.Girgashites
6.Hivites
7.Arkites
8.Sinites
9.Arvadites
10.Zemarites
11.Hamathites

Kardu
03-09-12, 23:47
Apart from being absurd this is totally off-topic. Moderators, please take action.

Taranis
04-09-12, 06:16
It does make sense, I want to know my true origins not the ones that are fabricated with lies...

Neonimrod, I've tried before to demonstrate to you that what you were posting is nonsense. Without any real reaction to my previous post, I infer that you have no interest in having an actual part discussion here but just wish to disseminate your pseudoscientific ideas. On behalf of the other moderators, we have come to the consensus that this warrants a month-long ban.

Malsori
04-09-12, 07:01
Great move on banning him. What he was doing was nonsense. They guy was a spammer or a *****. I doubt he was Albanian.

Knovas
04-09-12, 14:30
Moderators are doing their job, thanks so much. Talking about Gilgamesh was a very good point, Taranis.