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Sile
02-11-11, 08:56
latest on how the etruscans arrived in Italy

http://paleoglot.blogspot.com/2010/07/etruscan-entry-into-italy.html

Yetos
02-11-11, 15:38
sorry I tottaly disagree,

Etruscans moved from west from Thyrrenian sea and not from adrias

Greeks recogns them and their cities in west part and not in East,

means that Pyrgi must be a first area of arrival and not around Venice,

himagain
29-01-12, 05:11
The only example of the written language of the Etruscans was, I understand, found on linen mummy wrappings in Egypt. A lucky turn of fate.

Taranis
03-02-12, 21:01
The only example of the written language of the Etruscans was, I understand, found on linen mummy wrappings in Egypt. A lucky turn of fate.

Well, the peculiar part about these mummy wrappings is that it was inscription on linen. There have been other Etruscan inscriptions found, but most of these have been on metal objects (such as the Pyrgi tablets).

julia90
20-02-12, 02:25
That theory is interesting.. it would explain why retians were with etruscan origins..
But the question is: on their possible route by the adriatic, did they left colonies on dalmatians, epiro, greece coasts?

adamo
22-04-13, 13:31
If the Etruscans are linked to the pyrgi tablets and first arrived in Italy via the famous Tyrrhenian Sea near pyrgi or Tarquinia....does that not link them to Phrygians from Anatolia? If this is a valid link and not just a false linguistic one, it would place the Phrygians as a Mesopotamian or Hittite J2 people indigenous ( calling a homeland) to the Middle East. It would also be logical since the Etruscans are linked to the nearby lydians of Anatolia, according to HerodotusHerodotus

Angela
11-02-14, 16:26
thanks they are anatolian people :)

They may well have been or at least the elite members may have been Bronze Age migrants from Anatolia. However, such certainty is misplaced. We have absolutely no yDNA as yet. As for mtDNA, not a single full sequence has been done. Furthermore, the latest mtDNA analysis, rudimentary as it is, was conducted by the same researcher who initially claimed it could be traced to Bronze Age Anatolia, and through more sophisticated dating, he now concludes that the sequences are so old that they could very well have arrived in Italy in the Neolithic.

What is clear, however, is that they were not Turks.

Sile
12-02-14, 12:26
They may well have been or at least the elite members may have been Bronze Age migrants from Anatolia. However, such certainty is misplaced. We have absolutely no yDNA as yet. As for mtDNA, not a single full sequence has been done. Furthermore, the latest mtDNA analysis, rudimentary as it is, was conducted by the same researcher who initially claimed it could be traced to Bronze Age Anatolia, and through more sophisticated dating, he now concludes that the sequences are so old that they could very well have arrived in Italy in the Neolithic.

What is clear, however, is that they were not Turks.

Maybe the revamped/corrected west central high J2 ydna numbers in the link are the Etruscans? ..maybe RHAS was correct

http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=77703

I agree, that anatolia was not with Turks until the start of the "dark ages"

Angela
13-02-14, 07:36
Maybe the revamped/corrected west central high J2 ydna numbers in the link are the Etruscans? ..maybe RHAS was correct

http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=77703

I agree, that anatolia was not with Turks until the start of the "dark ages"



I'm still not very impressed by this Brisighelli study. The changes only fixed a few very egregious mathematical errors. With this level of resolution in the yDNA and mtDNA markers it's very difficult to reach conclusions about the time of entry of these haplogroups or their origin. I mean, they didn't even distinguish between J2a and J2b in the figures and tables in the main paper. Also, how a team that included three Italians could have put Modena and Bologna in the same group as the Abruzzi and Molise is beyond me, as is categorizing the Abruzzi as central Italy, regardless of where it lies geographically. I'm not even going to get into the madness of having one of your three main graphics show mtdna on the west and ydna only on the right.

In order to get something out of it, I looked at the data in conjunction with the much better Boattini et al study discussed here at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

These are the J2 levels in Italy from highest to lowest, using the data from both studies. The Boattini paper breaks J2 down into various J2a and J2b clades. The Brisighelli numbers are listed only as J2. So, I can only provide a breakdown for the Boattini numbers. As a general rule, the northern Italian numbers are all J2a. Starting in central Italy J2b makes an appearance, but as a minority group. The Boattini numbers, in my mind, also have more reliability because in addition to the grandparent rule for ancestry, Boattini uses surnames ancestral for the area.

36.9-Piceni (Brisighelli)-roughly, this is the Marche, an area from the base of the Apennines to the Adriatic, and from Ancona down to about Teramo in the Abruzzi, so, a coastal province. FWIW, Ancona was supposedly settled by Greeks from Siracusa, and the Marche has a long history of trade and cultural contacts with the southeast.

33.3-Belvedere, Calabria (Brisighelli) This town, part of the provincia of Cosenza, is on the Tyrhennian Sea. Cosenza is often sampled in Italian studies because it is the location of the Italic tribe of the Brutii, who fought long and hard against the Greeks. Sheltered in its valley within a ring of mountains, it subsequently fought Alaric (he is supposedly buried there with the treasure he stole from them), the Lombards, the Normans, the Angevins, the Aragonese, then the Austrians and the Bourbons. It was a cradle of the Carbonari and of riots in the 1820's that heralded the Risogimento. After a plebiscite, it was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy. Interestingly, it also seems to be a hotbed of J2a, which is the largest single haplogroup.

25.5-Greci Salentini (Brisighelli) A population in the Salento peninsula of Puglia which still speaks a Greek dialect, Griko.Some scholars hypothesize a hold over from Magna Graecia, while others see it as Byzantine.

25.5-Lecce in the Salento peninsula, Puglia. (Boattini) Like the Greci Salentini, the people of Lecce can be found in the Salento Peninsula of Puglia, the heel of the boot. J2b 7.5%, J2a 18%.

25.0-Ragusa, Siracusa, south east coastal Sicily (Boattini). This is Magna Graecia.J2b 4.5%, J2a 20.5%.

24.5-Foligno, Umbria (Boattini)-It's an inland city 25 miles southeast of Perugia, which was one of the cities in the Etruscan confederation. The problem is that it's also a railroad hub and terminal, and has seen a lot of emigration from other areas in Italy, including the Marche and the south. J2b is 8%, J2a 16.5%.

22.8-Sicily (Brisighelli)
22.7-Latini (Brisighelli)
22.5-Macerata, Marche again (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 20.0%
21.0-Cosenza, Catanzaro, and Croton, another Greek city state, all in Calabria. (Boattini) 2.5%J2b, 18.5%J2a.
20.0-Sanniti, inland from Naples (Brisighelli)
20.0-Matera, Basilicata, inland between Campaga(Naples) and Calabria and home to the ancient Lucanians. (Boattini) J2b 8%, J2a 12%.
16.5-Agrigento, southwest Sicily, another Greek settlement (Boattini) J2b 5%, J2a 11.5%.
16.5-Treviso, Central East Veneto All J2a
16.3-Messapi, in the Salento peninsula (Brisighelli) The Messapians were, according to ancient writers, Illyrians.
14.5-Catania, eastern Sicily, across from Calabria(Boattini) J2b 3%, J2a 11.5%
14.0-Benevento, inland from Naples (Boattini) All J2a
14.0-Savona/Genova, western and central Liguria (Boattini) All J2a
13.3-Lucera-upper Puglia (Brisighelli) This is an often tested area, because the few remaining Saracens in Sicily were supposedly relocted here.
13.0-L'Aquila, Abruzzi (Boattini) All J2a
10.6-Udine, far northeastern Italy (Brisighelli)
10.5-Grossetto, southern Toscana, ten miles from Vetulonia, a major city of the Etruscan Confederation (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 8%
10.5-Molise, once part of Abruzzi (Boattini) All J2a
10.0-Vicenza in the Central West Veneto (Boattini) All J2a
8.8-Ladini, a Ladin speaking isolate population extremely high in R1b (67%), which is found in the Dolomite Alps (Brisighelli)
7.5-Pistoia, northern Tuscany, just beyond the limit of the original confederated Etruscan cities (Boattini) J2a
7.5-Como, Lombardia (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 5.5%
6.5-La Spezia, eastern Liguria (Brisighelli)
6.5-Cuneo, Piemonte, North West Italy (Boattini)
5.0-Brescia, North East Lombardia (Boattini) All J2a
3.5-Bologna, Emilia-Romagna (Boattini) It's J2b
0-Eastern Liguria/northwest Toscana (Boattini)

Now, they could release a study tomorrow showing an elite Etruscan male sample is J2a, and I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think the distribtution of J2 in Italy necessarily leads to the conclusion that J2a was *the* Etruscan marker. While Pistoia (7.5%) is north of the Arno, and so I wouldn't necessarily expect a high concentration of the Etruscan markers there, I certainly would expect them around Grosseto and Siena where it is only 10.5% in total, lower than western Liguria, which is at 14% and only 8% J2a.

The only places sampled which are in any proximity to the major Etruscan towns and which have a high incidence of J2 are Foligno in Umbria (J2b 8%, J2a 16.5%) and the *Latini* (22.7%) sampled by Brisighelli. I'm not sure how much we should rely on the numbers for those two areas, as southern Lazio was, until the time of Mussolini, a part of the southern Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. At the same time, it's true that this 22.7% is substantially higher than the 14% for Benevento, inland from Naples, which is to its south. As for Foligno, it is a large commercial and railroad hub, so I don't know if the J2 could be from emigrants from the neighboring Marche or from Lazio and further south. I wish they had tested in Perugia, but as it is also a hub of transportation it might not have been all that informative.

I'm also unclear what to make of the distinction between J2b and J2a in the center and south. J2b, if I'm not mistaken, reaches reasonable levels in the Balkans and so could be a sign of the Neolithic, but J2a has not yet shown up in Neolithic samples.

The very high incidence found by both sets of researchers in the Marche (33% and 22.5%) bears scrutiny, as does the trail into the Veneto all the way up to Vicenza(10%) and Treviso(16.5%) and also into Udine (10.6)but I don't see how it stems from the Etruscans. The only thing that occurs to me as an explanation is either that a lot of it stems from the fact that these and adjoining areas were part of the Greek Exarchate of Ravenna, and/or it stems from both earlier and later trade and cultural ties with the Greek islands and the Greek cities of Anatolia. I think the northern Balkans are mainly J2b? If that's correct, only a very small portion of the J2 came from that area. Of course, a paper could come out tomorrow of a J2a Neolithic sample, but until then, I think I would go with J2a, anyway being Bronze Age and later in Italy.

It's also inescapable that there's a lot of J2 in southern Italy, in areas that had nothing to do with the Etruscans. The numbers for western Calabria(33.3%) and southeastern Sicily (25%) are particularly noteworthy, as are those of southern Puglia (25.5)for the latter of which the Greek migrations are, I think, the best explanation. It need not all be from Magna Graecia either. I have seen some studies which hold that the Greek dialect spoken in the Salento is closer to Byzantine than to ancient Greek. If some of our linguists read this, perhaps they might comment on this as on any other area where linguistics might provide some illumination.

Finally, the distributions in Lombardia, Emilia, and Liguria are also interesting. Como has 7.5%, and Brescia has only 5%, Emilia 3%, and eastern Liguria/northwest Toscana has 0% in Boattini, and eastern Liguria in Brisighelli has 6.5%, for a rough average of 3.2%. However, Genova, which is central/western Liguria, has a healthy 14%, higher than for Toscana, and approaching some levels in the south. So, the areas in Emilia and eastern Liguria, northwest Tuscany closest to the Etruscans have very minor levels, while the people of Savona and Genova who are further away have higher levels. I have researched the history of Genova quite extensively, and the most I could find was a Greek emporium, not a major settlement. However,they did control the coast for a time. Also, Massalia (Marseilles) was founded by the Greeks, and after each periodic sacking, new settlers could have arrived from that area. Fwiw, Massalia was originally settled by people from the Greek city of Phocaea on the Aegean coast of Anatolia.

Of course, when I say that the distribution of J2a could be attributed to Greek input, that input could have come from mainland Greece, the Greek islands, far western Turkey on the Aegean, or even from the Pontic Greeks. The Byzantines would have drawn from people not only in Greece, but from the Balkans, Anatolia and even the coastal Levant.

I've seen speculation that perhaps some of the input is from Near Eastern slaves during the days of the Empire, but, as per the IBD studies of Ralph and Coop, (until and if they are proven wrong) foreign input into Italy is almost indiscernible after about 400 B.C. I can only think that the life of a slave was so very harsh, with so many in the mines and galleys, or being worked to death in the Latifundia and the brothels, that most of them didn't survive to pro-create. The southern U.S. plantation model where slaves were bred doesn't have any counterpart in the Empire so far as I know. There was no concern about the replenishment of the stock, as there was usually another war right on the horizon. The educated Greek freedmen in imperial service would have been a drop in the bucket in terms of the millions then living on the peninsula and islands, and then, many impoverished rural people in Italia also increasingly sold themselves into slavery from debt and hunger.

I'm also a little skeptical that the Roman colonies in the north spread the J2a. After the large and prosperous Roman town of Luni was repeatedly sacked, the inhabitants moved en masse to Sarzana, which is just to the north of La Spezia. (It's also the last Tuscan home of the Bonapartes) Now, Sarzana hasn't been tested, but in the following 1500 years you would think some would have wound up in La Spezia and Massa, and yet there is very little J2. Instead, the largest haplogroup by far is R1b.

One last word...the Malloui study attempted to prove that J2a was the pre-eminent Phoenician marker. Although the Phoenicians didn't plant the kind of colonies we're familiar with in the case of the Greeks, some of this J2a might also be attributable to them, at least in Sicily, or in a few specific towns, like Teramo in Abuzzi for example, which is said to have been both an Etruscan and a Phoenician trading post. Until someone spends the time and money to get really downstream markers for J2a, and does some extensive testing in Italy, perhaps using Boattini's surname method, I just don't see how this can all really be untangled.

Map of Greek and Phoenician settlements in the Mediterranean.
http://jewishness.bellevueholidayrentals.com/images/p069_1_01.jpg

Map of Etruscan Italy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Etruscan_civilization_italian_map.png

Ed. I'm sorry this is so long, but once I spent all this time analyzing the data, I thought I should put it on the site to preserve it.

I'd be very interested in any analysis or criticism any of you might have
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Etruscan_civilization_italian_map.png)

Sile
13-02-14, 08:01
I'm still not very impressed by this Brisighelli study. The changes only fixed a few very egregious mathematical errors. With this level of resolution in the yDNA and mtDNA markers it's very difficult to reach conclusions about the time of entry of these haplogroups or their origin. I mean, they didn't even distinguish between J2a and J2b in the figures and tables in the main paper. Also, how a team that included three Italians could have put Modena and Bologna in the same group as the Abruzzi and Molise is beyond me, as is categorizing the Abruzzi as central Italy, regardless of where it lies geographically. I'm not even going to get into the madness of having one of your three main graphics show mtdna on the west and ydna only on the right.

In order to get something out of it, I looked at the data in conjunction with the much better Boattini et al study discussed here at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

These are the J2 levels in Italy from highest to lowest, using the data from both studies. The Boattini paper breaks J2 down into various J2a and J2b clades. The Brisighelli numbers are listed only as J2. So, I can only provide a breakdown for the Boattini numbers. As a general rule, the northern Italian numbers are all J2a. Starting in central Italy J2b makes an appearance, but as a minority group. The Boattini numbers, in my mind, also have more reliability because in addition to the grandparent rule for ancestry, Boattini uses surnames ancestral for the area.

I find it very much better than the older versions especially the graphs have been updated.


36.9-Piceni (Brisighelli)-roughly, this is the Marche, an area from the base of the Apennines to the Adriatic, and from Ancona down to about Teramo in the Abruzzi, so, a coastal province. FWIW, Ancona was supposedly settled by Greeks from Siracusa, and the Marche has a long history of trade and cultural contacts with the southeast.


this is Romagna and Umbria ( Adriatic coast)...........someone said the ancient northern port of Spina and south of that


33.3-Belvedere, Calabria (Brisighelli) This town, part of the provincia of Cosenza, is on the Tyrhennian Sea. Cosenza is often sampled in Italian studies because it is the location of the Italic tribe of the Brutii, who fought long and hard against the Greeks. Sheltered in its valley within a ring of mountains, it subsequently fought Alaric (he is supposedly buried there with the treasure he stole from them), the Lombards, the Normans, the Angevins, the Aragonese, then the Austrians and the Bourbons. It was a cradle of the Carbonari and of riots in the 1820's that heralded the Risogimento. After a plebiscite, it was annexed to the Kingdom of Italy. Interestingly, it also seems to be a hotbed of J2a, which is the largest single haplogroup.

25.5-Greci Salentini (Brisighelli) A population in the Salento peninsula of Puglia which still speaks a Greek dialect, Griko.Some scholars hypothesize a hold over from Magna Graecia, while others see it as Byzantine.

25.5-Lecce in the Salento peninsula, Puglia. (Boattini) Like the Greci Salentini, the people of Lecce can be found in the Salento Peninsula of Puglia, the heel of the boot. J2b 7.5%, J2a 18%.

25.0-Ragusa, Siracusa, south east coastal Sicily (Boattini). This is Magna Graecia.J2b 4.5%, J2a 20.5%.

all J2 area...matches the Greeks



22.8-Sicily (Brisighelli)
22.7-Latini (Brisighelli)
22.5-Macerata, Marche again (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 20.0%
21.0-Cosenza, Catanzaro, and Croton, another Greek city state, all in Calabria. (Boattini) 2.5%J2b, 18.5%J2a.
20.0-Sanniti, inland from Naples (Brisighelli)
20.0-Matera, Basilicata, inland between Campaga(Naples) and Calabria and home to the ancient Lucanians. (Boattini) J2b 8%, J2a 12%.
16.5-Agrigento, southwest Sicily, another Greek settlement (Boattini) J2b 5%, J2a 11.5%.
16.5-Treviso, Central East Veneto All J2a
16.3-Messapi, in the Salento peninsula (Brisighelli) The Messapians were, according to ancient writers, Illyrians.
14.5-Catania, eastern Sicily, across from Calabria(Boattini) J2b 3%, J2a 11.5%
14.0-Benevento, inland from Naples (Boattini) All J2a
14.0-Savona/Genova, western and central Liguria (Boattini) All J2a
13.3-Lucera-upper Puglia (Brisighelli) This is an often tested area, because the few remaining Saracens in Sicily were supposedly relocted here.
13.0-L'Aquila, Abruzzi (Boattini) All J2a
10.6-Udine, far northeastern Italy (Brisighelli)
10.5-Grossetto, southern Toscana, ten miles from Vetulonia, a major city of the Etruscan Confederation (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 8%
10.5-Molise, once part of Abruzzi (Boattini) All J2a
10.0-Vicenza in the Central West Veneto (Boattini) All J2a
8.8-Ladini, a Ladin speaking isolate population extremely high in R1b (67%), which is found in the Dolomite Alps (Brisighelli)
7.5-Pistoia, northern Tuscany, just beyond the limit of the original confederated Etruscan cities (Boattini) J2a
7.5-Como, Lombardia (Boattini) J2b 2.5%, J2a 5.5%
6.5-La Spezia, eastern Liguria (Brisighelli)
6.5-Cuneo, Piemonte, North West Italy (Boattini)
5.0-Brescia, North East Lombardia (Boattini) All J2a
3.5-Bologna, Emilia-Romagna (Boattini) It's J2b
0-Eastern Liguria/northwest Toscana (Boattini)


Notice that J2(b) is also important in Iberia (particularly in the West, South, Aragon and Majorca), what seems to support the Neolithic connection perceived for the other "Neolithic" lineages (E-V13, G2a and I-M26). It seems to fit


Now, they could release a study tomorrow showing an elite Etruscan male sample is J2a, and I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think the distribtution of J2 in Italy necessarily leads to the conclusion that J2a was *the* Etruscan marker. While Pistoia (7.5%) is north of the Arno, and so I wouldn't necessarily expect a high concentration of the Etruscan markers there, I certainly would expect them around Grosseto and Siena where it is only 10.5% in total, lower than western Liguria, which is at 14% and only 8% J2a.


Do you want to claim the Etruscans where R1b?



The only places sampled which are in any proximity to the major Etruscan towns and which have a high incidence of J2 are Foligno in Umbria (J2b 8%, J2a 16.5%) and the *Latini* (22.7%) sampled by Brisighelli. I'm not sure how much we should rely on the numbers for those two areas, as southern Lazio was, until the time of Mussolini, a part of the southern Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. At the same time, it's true that this 22.7% is substantially higher than the 14% for Benevento, inland from Naples, which is to its south. As for Foligno, it is a large commercial and railroad hub, so I don't know if the J2 could be from emigrants from the neighboring Marche or from Lazio and further south. I wish they had tested in Perugia, but as it is also a hub of transportation it might not have been all that informative.

considering ancient latini area was so small, i envisaged they groupe Etruria with it


I'm also unclear what to make of the distinction between J2b and J2a in the center and south. J2b, if I'm not mistaken, reaches reasonable levels in the Balkans and so could be a sign of the Neolithic, but J2a has not yet shown up in Neolithic samples.
what about the K.....L and T ( K2) are seperated and nearly all K in West Eurasia is P or LT . Found in several populations across Italy: Ladini, Liguri and Piceni. I now wonder if the excess K(xP) found in Eivissa (Ibiza) and some other scattered Iberian populations is also the same as this italian samples.


The very high incidence found by both sets of researchers in the Marche (33% and 22.5%) bears scrutiny, as does the trail into the Veneto all the way up to Vicenza(10%) and Treviso(16.5%) and also into Udine (10.6)but I don't see how it stems from the Etruscans. The only thing that occurs to me as an explanation is either that a lot of it stems from the fact that these and adjoining areas were part of the Greek Exarchate of Ravenna, and/or it stems from both earlier and later trade and cultural ties with the Greek islands and the Greek cities of Anatolia. I think the northern Balkans are mainly J2b? If that's correct, only a very small portion of the J2 came from that area. Of course, a paper could come out tomorrow of a J2a Neolithic sample, but until then, I think I would go with J2a, anyway being Bronze Age and later in Italy.

I see no data for Veneto...unless you combine data of the Ladini, piceni and Udine


It's also inescapable that there's a lot of J2 in southern Italy, in areas that had nothing to do with the Etruscans. The numbers for western Calabria(33.3%) and southeastern Sicily (25%) are particularly noteworthy, as are those of southern Puglia (25.5)for the latter of which the Greek migrations are, I think, the best explanation. It need not all be from Magna Graecia either. I have seen some studies which hold that the Greek dialect spoken in the Salento is closer to Byzantine than to ancient Greek. If some of our linguists read this, perhaps they might comment on this as on any other area where linguistics might provide some illumination.

again, if J2 is Greek, then the Greeks infiltrated more north than what we think...Naples was greek.


Finally, the distributions in Lombardia, Emilia, and Liguria are also interesting. Como has 7.5%, and Brescia has only 5%, Emilia 3%, and eastern Liguria/northwest Toscana has 0% in Boattini, and eastern Liguria in Brisighelli has 6.5%, for a rough average of 3.2%. However, Genova, which is central/western Liguria, has a healthy 14%, higher than for Toscana, and approaching some levels in the south. So, the areas in Emilia and eastern Liguria, northwest Tuscany closest to the Etruscans have very minor levels, while the people of Savona and Genova who are further away have higher levels. I have researched the history of Genova quite extensively, and the most I could find was a Greek emporium, not a major settlement. However,they did control the coast for a time. Also, Massalia (Marseilles) was founded by the Greeks, and after each periodic sacking, new settlers could have arrived from that area. Fwiw, Massalia was originally settled by people from the Greek city of Phocaea on the Aegean coast of Anatolia.


I clearly see all Italy with G2, but the heavy influx of populations in the south dispersed the G2 there while the alpine areas being isolated retained their numbers.
Isn't Phocea the same as Eubeoa ...........where etruscans got their script?

Angela
13-02-14, 17:21
this is Romagna and Umbria ( Adriatic coast)...........someone said the ancient northern port of Spina and south of that.

No, the Piceni were located in the present day Marche, and the Marche is indeed on the Adriatic.
http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/Piceni.html

http://www.rustico-company.com/pictures-other/marche.jpg


Notice that J2(b) is also important in Iberia (particularly in the West, South, Aragon and Majorca), what seems to support the Neolithic connection perceived for the other "Neolithic" lineages (E-V13, G2a and I-M26). It seems to fit.

Yes, as I said, I think a case can be made that the J2b is Neolithic in origin, with the caveat that it needs to be confirmed through ancient DNA.



Do you want to claim the Etruscans where R1b?

I'm not claiming anything. I'm trying to lay out the data from both the Boattini and Brisighelli studies on J2a, and what I see doesn't necessarily indicate that J2a is the Etruscan marker. If, and it's still an if in my mind based on the archaeology, they came from Anatolia, J2a is a good bet. What complicates matters is that the Greeks who settled in Italy also came from areas high in J2a, so even if an ancient Etruscan sample turns out to be J2a, I don't see how that necessarily proves they came from Anatolia. In order to draw conclusions like that, a lot of work has to be done on yDNA J2a, so that downstream markers can be distinguished, leading to clusters that can be dated. If the J2a in Calabria and Sicily should be the same age and cluster as in Greece, and both should be the same age and cluster as the Etruscans, what then?



I see no data for Veneto...unless you combine data of the Ladini, piceni and Udine

As I said, I listed all the numbers from Boattini as well as from Brisighelli to get a fuller picture. Treviso comes in at 16.5, and Vicenza at 10.0. Even the Ladini show it at 8.8.



what about the K.....L and T ( K2) are seperated and nearly all K in West Eurasia is P or LT . Found in several populations across Italy: Ladini, Liguri and Piceni. I now wonder if the excess K(xP) found in Eivissa (Ibiza) and some other scattered Iberian populations is also the same as this italian samples.

From what I have seen, I would speculate that this is mainly Neolithic.



again, if J2 is Greek, then the Greeks infiltrated more north than what we think...Naples was greek.

Yes, if by Naples you mean only the actual coastal city. The interior of Campania was not. Naples was also Etruscan at one point. J2a is, of course, not only Greek, but unless we find a Neolithic J2a, it must have come in the Bronze Age or later, and other than Greek colonization, and a possible Anatolian source for the Etruscans, I don't know of any other possibilities.



Isn't Phocea the same as Eubeoa ...........where etruscans got their script?

Phocaea was a large and prosperous Greek city state on the Aegean coast of Anatolia, and part of the Ionian League. It was itself a colony from Phocis in central Greece. They are a very interesting group, with colonies also on the Black Sea, but their main colonization was in the west: Catalonia, Massalia and Corsica, and Elea in Campania. Supposedly, with the rise of the Lydian kings, and later the Persians, many fled to either Corsica or Campania. The Wiki article on them is pretty good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phocaea_Map.JPG

Eubeoa is an island off the mainland of Greece, also Ionian, settled from Attica, and later came under Athenian control.

Sile
13-02-14, 19:37
Phocaea was a large and prosperous Greek city state on the Aegean coast of Anatolia, and part of the Ionian League. It was itself a colony from Phocis in central Greece. They are a very interesting group, with colonies also on the Black Sea, but their main colonization was in the west: Catalonia, Massalia and Corsica, and Elea in Campania. Supposedly, with the rise of the Lydian kings, and later the Persians, many fled to either Corsica or Campania. The Wiki article on them is pretty good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phocaea_Map.JPG

Eubeoa is an island off the mainland of Greece, also Ionian, settled from Attica, and later came under Athenian control.

in reagrds to picene in the link.......is it solely south picene and ancona OR north Picene which incorporated from Rimini to Pesaro . North-Picene is far older than south picene as its discovered texts are from the 7th century BC

The estimated time of production was late 7th century BC.
The longest of them is on a stele that is known as the "Novilara Stele", Novilara being an archeological site near Pesaro.
The text reads as follows:

mimniś erút gaareśtadeś
rotneš úvlin parten úś
polem iśairon tet
šút tratneši krúš
tenag trút ipiem rotneš
lútúiś θalú iśperion vúl
teś rotem teú aiten tašúr
śoter merpon kalatne
niś vilatoś paten arn
úiś baleśtenag andś et
šút lakút treten teletaú
nem polem tišú śotriś eúś

Angela
14-02-14, 19:24
in reagrds to picene in the link.......is it solely south picene and ancona OR north Picene which incorporated from Rimini to Pesaro . North-Picene is far older than south picene as its discovered texts are from the 7th century BC

The estimated time of production was late 7th century BC.
The longest of them is on a stele that is known as the "Novilara Stele", Novilara being an archeological site near Pesaro.
The text reads as follows:

mimniś erút gaareśtadeś
rotneš úvlin parten úś
polem iśairon tet
šút tratneši krúš
tenag trút ipiem rotneš
lútúiś θalú iśperion vúl
teś rotem teú aiten tašúr
śoter merpon kalatne
niś vilatoś paten arn
úiś baleśtenag andś et
šút lakút treten teletaú
nem polem tišú śotriś eúś

Perhaps you didn't yet read the Italian article? It pretty clearly states that the area being discussed is the region between the Foglia river on the north (roughly around Pesaro) and the Pescara river in the south, and from the base of the Apennines to the Adriatic. The author doesn't go into any detail about the languages, but does clearly show how much confusion there is about the Piceni and their origins.

I personally think that there is an obvious "native" layer, if you will, which worshiped the Great Mother, the fertility goddess Cupra. Whether these people were confined to the northern portion of the Marche north of Ancona, which also experienced some Gallic migrations, and had some Etruscan settlements, or whether they were spread throughout the entire expanse of the region I don't know, but I don't see why they would have been necessarily limited to the more northerly area.

The ancient authors did state that a group of Sabines migrated to the area, but the exact geographical parameters aren't that clear to me...i.e. whether they settled only the southern half of the area. It's true that what is called the "South Picene" language is in the Umbro Sabellic subgroup of the Italic languages from what I read. The "North Picene" language does not appear to be an Indo-European language. So, the presence of different "ethnic" strata seems pretty clear. However, I'm not sure, as I said, that there was a specific north/south division.

For our purposes in discussing the presence of J2a, it's not terribly helpful to talk about these divisions anyway, or so it seems to me, since the samples are almost always taken in Macerata, which is roughly in the middle. I still don't know whether this J2a is Greek from the Greek settlers of Ancona, or earlier, indicating that J2a arrived in Italy before the major period of Greek colonization. In that case, was it a late Neolithic movement from the Balkans? Ancona is, in fact, the closest Italian port to the Dalmatian coast. However, I don't know if there is any archaeological support for a late Neolithic movement from that area...I'll have to check. And isn't most of the J2 in that area of the Balkans J2b? Although I suppose the Balkan signatures may have been disturbed by the Slavic invasions and subsequent movements of people.

It's very frustrating trying to come to any logical conclusions about the peopling of Italy when so many of its yDNA clades are so poorly resolved and dated.

Sile
14-02-14, 20:56
Perhaps you didn't yet read the Italian article? It pretty clearly states that the area being discussed is the region between the Foglia river on the north (roughly around Pesaro) and the Pescara river in the south, and from the base of the Apennines to the Adriatic. The author doesn't go into any detail about the languages, but does clearly show how much confusion there is about the Piceni and their origins.

I personally think that there is an obvious "native" layer, if you will, which worshiped the Great Mother, the fertility goddess Cupra. Whether these people were confined to the northern portion of the Marche north of Ancona, which also experienced some Gallic migrations, and had some Etruscan settlements, or whether they were spread throughout the entire expanse of the region I don't know, but I don't see why they would have been necessarily limited to the more northerly area.

The ancient authors did state that a group of Sabines migrated to the area, but the exact geographical parameters aren't that clear to me...i.e. whether they settled only the southern half of the area. It's true that what is called the "South Picene" language is in the Umbro Sabellic subgroup of the Italic languages from what I read. The "North Picene" language does not appear to be an Indo-European language. So, the presence of different "ethnic" strata seems pretty clear. However, I'm not sure, as I said, that there was a specific north/south division.

For our purposes in discussing the presence of J2a, it's not terribly helpful to talk about these divisions anyway, or so it seems to me, since the samples are almost always taken in Macerata, which is roughly in the middle. I still don't know whether this J2a is Greek from the Greek settlers of Ancona, or earlier, indicating that J2a arrived in Italy before the major period of Greek colonization. In that case, was it a late Neolithic movement from the Balkans? Ancona is, in fact, the closest Italian port to the Dalmatian coast. However, I don't know if there is any archaeological support for a late Neolithic movement from that area...I'll have to check. And isn't most of the J2 in that area of the Balkans J2b? Although I suppose the Balkan signatures may have been disturbed by the Slavic invasions and subsequent movements of people.

It's very frustrating trying to come to any logical conclusions about the peopling of Italy when so many of its yDNA clades are so poorly resolved and dated.

correct for south picene....why would you make picene only refer to south picene, when south picene is under sanniti language and customs . the south picene and north picene have never been one people, ever.
the paper clearly refers to the term picini as only north picene and this means non sanniti ...........if it does not do this, then picene and sanniti are basically the same

I cannot see it as only marche region because the paper then excludes, romagna as well as veneto, tuscany and others.............logically , this paper would cover all of italy , with the names overlapping modern regions into one name or more...........as an example, udine would also cover eatern veneto, ladini would cover north veneto and north friuli etc

The only greek settlement in ancona was by Corinthian greeks coming from syracuse .

the north picene history states that the Romans clearly when taking the area, removed entirely all gallic people to leave in place only italic people ( i have not delved further to find out how the Romans did this)

Angela
14-02-14, 22:32
correct for south picene....why would you make picene only refer to south picene, when south picene is under sanniti language and customs . the south picene and north picene have never been one people, ever.
the paper clearly refers to the term picini as only north picene and this means non sanniti ...........if it does not do this, then picene and sanniti are basically the same

I cannot see it as only marche region because the paper then excludes, romagna as well as veneto, tuscany and others.............logically , this paper would cover all of italy , with the names overlapping modern regions into one name or more...........as an example, udine would also cover eatern veneto, ladini would cover north veneto and north friuli etc

The only greek settlement in ancona was by Corinthian greeks coming from syracuse .

the north picene history states that the Romans clearly when taking the area, removed entirely all gallic people to leave in place only italic people ( i have not delved further to find out how the Romans did this)

Sorry, I'm not quite following you. This is what the paper says:

Varie sono le ipotesi avanzate sull’origine dei Piceni che nella prima età del ferro (circa decimo - nono (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/Piceni.html#) secolo a. C.) occuparono il tratto di costa adriatica compreso tra i fiumi Foglia a Nord e Pescara a Sud e delimitato ad Ovest dagli Appennini.

Ultimamente alcuni storici hanno messo in dubbio la consuetudine di ritenere i Piceni generati da uno sciame votivo dei Sabini (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CSabini.html). Alla luce dei vari ritrovamenti archeologici è stata avanzata l’ipotesi che questo popolo non sia di derivazione indoeuropea.

Solo in epoca successiva ad esso si sarebbero sovrapposti i Picenti, cioè appunto quelle tribù italiche del gruppo umbro–sabellico cui fanno riferimento gli scrittori classici (i Sabini (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CSabini.html) concordemente erano ritenuti una diramazione degli Umbri (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CUmbri.html)).

Tuttavia altri studiosi - ed è questa oggi l’ipotesi prevalente - non fanno distinzione tra Piceni e Picenti e ritengono, in sintonia con l’antica tradizione, che questo popolo derivi dal grande gruppo etnico degli Umbro–Sabelli.

I disagree with what he maintains is the current prevalent view, that the Piceni only derive from the Umbro-Sabelli. The religion,the archaeology, the fragments of a non-Indo-European language described as North Picene, all argue against it.

The two sets of data can, however, be combined, if one sees this as a situation where the Italic culture and peoples are superimposed upon the earlier fertility goddess worshiping agriculturalists. (Is this what you mean when you say that the theory can be broadened to all of Italy?)

The only question that then remains is whether there was a geographical division of the two groups. I don't think that there necessarily was, nor am I aware of any such evidence other than the evidence of two ancient languages in the province. In terms of the linguistics, even if the evidence for an Indo-European language is tied to the southern portion of the Marche, and the North Picene non Indo-European language is tied to the northern portion, this doesn't necessarily imply a geographical division by ethnic group. To hold otherwise would mean that the southern Marche was for some reason empty of the prior agricultural inhabitants, while the northern portion was not. That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me. The fact that the North Picene fragments were found near Pesaro doesn't mean that this language couldn't have been spoken further south as well. Even if it wasn't, that doesn't mean that there weren't agriculturists there who might have spoken a now lost language. I would agree, however, that the portion from Ancona north might have been more mixed.

I take all these Roman claims that certain groups were totally exterminated and/or exiled with more than a grain of salt. Titus Livius supposedly oversaw the destruction of the Alpi Apuani Celt/Ligurians and the exile of the remnant to the land of the Samnites, yet if current yDNA analysis tells us anything, it probably indicates that a good number of them remained, perhaps in the Apennines, and then returned.

Sile
14-02-14, 23:05
Sorry, I'm not quite following you. This is what the paper says:

Varie sono le ipotesi avanzate sull’origine dei Piceni che nella prima età del ferro (circa decimo - nono (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/Piceni.html#) secolo a. C.) occuparono il tratto di costa adriatica compreso tra i fiumi Foglia a Nord e Pescara a Sud e delimitato ad Ovest dagli Appennini.

Ultimamente alcuni storici hanno messo in dubbio la consuetudine di ritenere i Piceni generati da uno sciame votivo dei Sabini (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CSabini.html). Alla luce dei vari ritrovamenti archeologici è stata avanzata l’ipotesi che questo popolo non sia di derivazione indoeuropea.

Solo in epoca successiva ad esso si sarebbero sovrapposti i Picenti, cioè appunto quelle tribù italiche del gruppo umbro–sabellico cui fanno riferimento gli scrittori classici (i Sabini (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CSabini.html) concordemente erano ritenuti una diramazione degli Umbri (http://spazioinwind.libero.it/popoli_antichi/Italici/..%5CItalici%5CUmbri.html)).

Tuttavia altri studiosi - ed è questa oggi l’ipotesi prevalente - non fanno distinzione tra Piceni e Picenti e ritengono, in sintonia con l’antica tradizione, che questo popolo derivi dal grande gruppo etnico degli Umbro–Sabelli.

I disagree with what he maintains is the current prevalent view, that the Piceni only derive from the Umbro-Sabelli. The religion,the archaeology, the fragments of a non-Indo-European language described as North Picene, all argue against it.

The two sets of data can, however, be combined, if one sees this as a situation where the Italic culture and peoples are superimposed upon the earlier fertility goddess worshiping agriculturalists. (Is this what you mean when you say that the theory can be broadened to all of Italy?)

The only question that then remains is whether there was a geographical division of the two groups. I don't think that there necessarily was, nor am I aware of any such evidence other than the evidence of two ancient languages in the province. In terms of the linguistics, even if the evidence for an Indo-European language is tied to the southern portion of the Marche, and the North Picene non Indo-European language is tied to the northern portion, this doesn't necessarily imply a geographical division by ethnic group. To hold otherwise would mean that the southern Marche was for some reason empty of the prior agricultural inhabitants, while the northern portion was not. That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me. The fact that the North Picene fragments were found near Pesaro doesn't mean that this language couldn't have been spoken further south as well. Even if it wasn't, that doesn't mean that there weren't agriculturists there who might have spoken a now lost language. I would agree, however, that the portion from Ancona north might have been more mixed.

I take all these Roman claims that certain groups were totally exterminated and/or exiled with more than a grain of salt. Titus Livius supposedly oversaw the destruction of the Alpi Apuani Celt/Ligurians and the exile of the remnant to the land of the Samnites, yet if current yDNA analysis tells us anything, it probably indicates that a good number of them remained, perhaps in the Apennines, and then returned.

the umbro sabellic question
Sabellic was originally the collective ethnonym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnonym) of the Italic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_people) who inhabited central and southern Italy at the time of Roman expansion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_expansion). The name was later used by Theodor Mommsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen) in his Unteritalische Dialekte to describe the pre-Roman dialects of central Italy which were neither Oscan nor Umbrian. Nowadays, it is used for the Osco-Umbrian languages as a whole. The word "Sabellic" was once applied to all such minor languages, whether Osco-Umbrian or not, even the North Picene language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Picene_language), despite the fact that North Picene has never been thought to be related to the languages to which the word is now applied.

Well, historians claim umbrians came from south lombardis, eastern Emilia and western romagna area and move in a south east direction..........this fits with the other paper you mentioned.

I agree with you that the north-picene are different and even that south-picene maybe where with the north but changed their language. I even foresee a liburnian origin with a gallic Semnones mix. But the point is , what does the paper refer to as picene.........the markers are different and even if its all marche region, is it old umbrian?
I also doubt ancona is part of his mix. he does say pescara and west of the alpinnes mountains but the sabines comment is a worry, they are nest to etruscans and originate from doric people from argos/sparta area