PDA

View Full Version : Should Greece leave the EU?



bertrand
03-11-11, 21:27
Finally after months of empty debates about the Greek crisis the real question is on the table: Does Greece still have its place in the Euro-group?

Immediately, this question raises a few others:
- Do the Greeks still want to be part of the Euro?
- Are they willing to make harsh sacrifices to stay in?
- what is really best for Greece and the Greek people?
- What is best for the rest of the Euro group?

My personal opinion is that Greece should leave the Euro, at least for a temporary period (10 to 20 years). Greece is in the same position as Argentina used to be. In such a position there is no other choice but to devalue to give some breathing room to the economy to be competitive again. Being part of the Euro, it can't do that, and as a result the economy is clumbered. Giving all the money in the world to the Greek will not change that simple truth:
ONLY A DEVALUATION OF ITS CURRENCY CAN MAKE THE GREEK ECONOMY COMPETITIVE AGAIN

If Greece were to devalue tomorrow and return to the Drachma, the pressure on the euro would cease, the greek economy would return to its own pace, and the Euro-group could still help them from a much more stable position. In addition, the Greeks would feel again in control of their country and they would be able to do the reforms they wish at their own pace, without being forced to anything by other countries.

Sile
03-11-11, 22:40
Finally after months of empty debates about the Greek crisis the real question is on the table: Does Greece still have its place in the Euro-group?

Immediately, this question raises a few others:
- Do the Greeks still want to be part of the Euro?
- Are they willing to make harsh sacrifices to stay in?
- what is really best for Greece and the Greek people?
- What is best for the rest of the Euro group?

My personal opinion is that Greece should leave the Euro, at least for a temporary period (10 to 20 years). Greece is in the same position as Argentina used to be. In such a position there is no other choice but to devalue to give some breathing room to the economy to be competitive again. Being part of the Euro, it can't do that, and as a result the economy is clumbered. Giving all the money in the world to the Greek will not change that simple truth:
ONLY A DEVALUATION OF ITS CURRENCY CAN MAKE THE GREEK ECONOMY COMPETITIVE AGAIN

If Greece were to devalue tomorrow and return to the Drachma, the pressure on the euro would cease, the greek economy would return to its own pace, and the Euro-group could still help them from a much more stable position. In addition, the Greeks would feel again in control of their country and they would be able to do the reforms they wish at their own pace, without being forced to anything by other countries.


Greece is having a referendum in early December , part of this referendum is if Greece should pay back any money same as Iceland had a referendum not to pay England and Netherlands back. so we could see never ever repayments from Greece back to Germany and France...........what can these 2 nations do about it ..........nothing

Cimmerianbloke
04-11-11, 01:23
Hehe, looks like selective democracy has hit again. Merkozy has bullied the Greek Premier into rethinking the referendum plot, insisting it was a very bad idea... Of course, Greek has not its place into the eurozone, but as it somehow ended up with a membership card, regardless of all the pundits, experts and wizards opinions, so why not try to keep it that way? The boat is sinking, we might as well stick together... We have to be thorough and consider the massive amounts of money that leave the EU every year to assist third world countries, budging democracies and relieve populations after every single natural disaster, and the colossal piles of cash that are thrown into the useless EU structures. The western democracies has had its priority list all wrong for decades, and now is the time to face the bill. The real question behind the crisis is "Are current leaders willing to sacrifice themselves to give coming European generations some kind of future?" The Greek Premier had this fantastic gesture, we have to leave it to him, political suicide has rarely been more elegant.

Elias2
04-11-11, 01:25
Greece should leave the eurozone (not the EU) for 5-10 years to get its hosue in order.

edao
04-11-11, 01:48
If Greece leaves the Euro anyone with deposits in Greek banks or investments can say goodbye to their money. The devaluation of the new currency would go through the floor making any money in Greece worthless, you'd be looking at a new Zimbabwe, empty bank accounts, empty stores, complete social collapse.

Their only hope would be the IMF, but the IMF already offered a deal with the EU, so why would they be interested in helping a country that pushed its own self destruct button.(Argentina needed the IMF to recover)

50% write down of Greek debt is an excellent result at this stage, it buys everyone else in Europe time to create economic growth to increase gdp and get the government and private sector balance sheets in better shape. Then in perhaps 2-3 years time a further wrtie down of Greek debt will be needed to get it within a gdp to debt ratio that is compliant with growth. No one will admit to future write downs because the markets will go crazy, but having 120% debt to gdp ratio in 2020( i can remeber the exact year) with the 50% write down is never a final solution any one with any understanding of the situation can see this is crisis managemnt not a solution.

The real problem is not Greece but the effect Greece has on markets and how the situation is increasing the cost of borrowing for Italy (which has 120% of debt to gdp). Investors are looking at Berlusconi and the pantomine that is Italian politics and they are not convinced that the political will exists in Italy to get their austerity measures pushed through. Europe can easily afford to bank-roll Greece for years to come but they can't afford to bank-roll Italy or Spain.

What is clear from the G20 meeting in Cannes is that the global economy is completely intertwinned now and no one is free to make their own economic decisions, this is leading to a break down in democratic values.

The magic bullet to the situation is growth, if Europe can attain healthy growth figures in 2012 these debt problems will solve themselves if combined with economic reforms and closer intergration across the area. One problem is while there appears to be a political will to move forward this has been formed without the consent of the people, any question of further intergration in times of austerity are unlikely to be met with a yes vote.

We also have to bare in mind that Europe is the largest economic area in the world and while this process is painful it is needed for future prosperity. The Americans are in a much bigger debt crisis than anthing in Europe and have not even yet started to create a credible plan for getting it under control. Let's not forget the financial crisis started in the American housing market fuelled by fraudulent activity of rating agencies combined with investment banks creating misleading financial products. Even when the dominos started falling the American Governments inability to rescue Lehman Brother cost the world dearly. I'd be less worried about Greece or Italy and be more worried about the freak show over the Atlantic, their political crisis managment doesn't have a great track record.

Greece should stick it out in the Euro, further write downs will come in a few years and the required capital will be offered to prevent a complete economic collapse. In reality its their ONLY choice. A temporary loss of democracy is a price worth paying if it keeps bread on the table.

Antigone
04-11-11, 07:05
Everyone here was shocked at the announcement of the referendum, can't understand the reason for it especially after the deal has already been signed, think it is crazy and many are saying they will voice their objection by not voting but I'm not sure that a referendum will be held at all. The government is self destructing rapidly under the pressure with rebellions and a power struggle going on within the ruling party and Papandraeu is desperately doing and saying anything that he thinks will keep himself as PM.

It's doubtful that the ruling Pasok party can stay in power with Papandraeu as head, I think he will get the chop and a new government will be formed. Then we'll see.....

Yetos
04-11-11, 07:31
Well Greece Depth is about 2-3.5% of Europe's total Depth

if Greece leave Euro is a good mark for Greece,

But consider what will be the power of Euro if 2 bigger countries leave Eurozone,

you know for whom the bell talls,

the best solution is to exit Germany to a strong DM and leave the rest to a more flexible Euro and less stronger so to support weak economies exportations,

at August the CHF reached the E=1,04CHF yet swiss managed not to bite the hook, and try to returned to E=1.22CHF
that moved saved her from troubles,

BESIDES I AM TIRED OF HEARING THAT GREECE SHOULD NOT ENTER THE EUROZONE
BUT ALL EUROPEAN HYPOCRITES ACCEPT IT

I am talking about the Goldman Sachs case and the Loan by Semitis
as I wrote somewhere else Eurostat, Germany etc knew about,
yet they accept Greece so to make E more stronger,
and now that E falls everybody blaims Greece,

SOMEONES MUST BE ASHAMED FOR THEIR SELVES

just think who made and who accepted the 'white wedding'?

STOP BLAIMING GREEKS FOR IT IS A EU HYPOCRISY TOO

in a white wedding both are quilty

just look at and think, if Greece manage it and leave Euro and succes outside Euro,
and then Italy or Spain foolows?

on the other hand what is G20 and who cares, we talk about millions of people about to pass the poor limit because some 'wise quys' support Banking system, and some Greek politician were corrupted mainly by Germans, (Siemens Ferostaahl etc)
if EU want to save Greece Help Greeks and sent politicians to jail. not Taxing people,
Greeks do not recogn the moto
'together we eat the money of EU'
'together we pay'
'together we suffer'
'global crisis' etc

Greek people say
I took no money
I work for my living
I do not pay tax to save the politicians ass, if you want your money back take it from your lackeys
tax the banks and not the poverty

kuaile
04-11-11, 09:20
I like the form and I am interested in the topic.

edao
04-11-11, 10:37
@Kualie could you borrow us some money we are a bit short? :grin:

Yetos
04-11-11, 14:15
@Kualie could you borrow us some money we are a bit short? :grin:

you put wrong,

Edao could you borrow ME some money, don't worry the people will pay.

barbarian
04-11-11, 19:05
i believe after Greece make some privatization, suddenly greece will be next shining star. it is the same old story (see turkey)

Yetos
05-11-11, 00:13
according CNN and dos Santos Greece is already typing Drachmas


5312

yet is media rumor and officially minister deny it

source
http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/04/is-greece-angling-for-a-eurozone-exit-and-can-it-leave/

how yes no 2
31-12-11, 00:52
guess euro system was not well designed... Greece is just current location of the problem...

Cimmerianbloke
02-01-12, 00:38
Yetos,
Your post reminds me of how behind all the talks and squabble about the Eurozone and the Greek bankrupcy (matter of time, I admit this is my personal interpretation), there are thousands of human dramas. Sure, millions of people do work on a daily basis and see they tax rate skyrocket, their banks shutting down the money tap, and see their hopes of a better living evaporate. I really suffer for you guys that will have to toil to make a decent living when you were promised you'll all live the high life.
However, I think the Greeks are letting go of a splendid opportunity to show the world corruption and plain incompetence can not go unpunished in today's western world. It is ironic that the cradle of democracy made us aware of how she becomes the whore of the world's economic pimps. In my eyes, as long as the people who sold their country away and let it sink can get away with it without being disposed of French Revolution-style, we are unlikely to see any improvement coming.
Greece has a lot to offer from a lifestyle and tourism point of view, she should follow her own path and find her pride again.


One last thing, guys, you borrow money from someone, but you lend money to someone, to avoid confusions.

Yetos
02-01-12, 05:33
Yetos,
Your post reminds me of how behind all the talks and squabble about the Eurozone and the Greek bankrupcy (matter of time, I admit this is my personal interpretation), there are thousands of human dramas. Sure, millions of people do work on a daily basis and see they tax rate skyrocket, their banks shutting down the money tap, and see their hopes of a better living evaporate. I really suffer for you guys that will have to toil to make a decent living when you were promised you'll all live the high life.
However, I think the Greeks are letting go of a splendid opportunity to show the world corruption and plain incompetence can not go unpunished in today's western world. It is ironic that the cradle of democracy made us aware of how she becomes the whore of the world's economic pimps. In my eyes, as long as the people who sold their country away and let it sink can get away with it without being disposed of French Revolution-style, we are unlikely to see any improvement coming.
Greece has a lot to offer from a lifestyle and tourism point of view, she should follow her own path and find her pride again.


One last thing, guys, you borrow money from someone, but you lend money to someone, to avoid confusions.

well the only I can answer is that kids ask from Santa to bring Health, cause medicines are expensive,
and coffins, for the politicians,

and yet the system and Troica and ReichenBach are tottaly out of point,

example
they estimated that gain over 1 b E from annual tax of cars (stamp for allow a car to streets)
and raise the price of the stamp.
the result,
800 000 gave back their number's plates.
400 cases to send State to courts cause the money according law should stay in the municipal to fix roads, but state uses them to other purposes,

that means 300 000 000 E less income to state, and money loss from municipals, which are not that bankrupt to save politicians ass,

and another failure for troica and Reichenbach.

the funny thing is with Fuchtel,
he call 200 majors of N greece towns,
he offered them low cost in design 200 bio-cleansing of Urban rejects projects, by German engineers, low interest loan from German Banks to get money so to take the EU support,
the only exchange, the electrical equipment should be from Germany (Siemens)
the answer from 150 majors, the next day, 150 NO

as you see Greeks are resisting their own way,
and even the best technocrat or politician can not predict them,

consider that 35 % of Bank cash is missing, Greek middle and low class took their deposits from Banks and make them dollars, and now they earn from drop of E, with no fear of losing their money,
at October, Greeks instead of seed grain in the Fields, they seed bags with money,
and the funny 5 years now the state is an agreement with Swiss Banks to tax and names etc,
they find agreement, but they never signed it,
when reporter ask the president of parliament who have money,
the president said it is private and can not give names,
but in that case they give names in Greek banks Deposit of politicians,
By a Greek that lives in Swiss and he is in parliament the sum is about 580 Billion E that belongs to families of about 1200 politicians from 1980 until today!!!!
while the total deposits in Greek Banks at 2008 was only 300 Billlion E. when at 2002 was about 450 billion,

in my village in the mountains of Makedonia,
people have started to produce cheap alcohol to burn in strange working model, that warms and also produce more alcohol, so the money that state and troica were waiting from tax in oil goes bloom.

just consider that import of Goods have 35% drop with the highest in German food and cars that reach 45%

the most characteristic is the tobaco-smoking case,
the tax raised a packet 20 gr to about 4-4,5 E
Greeks started to buy tobacco from producers with amazing price of 10-20 E per kilo, (about 2 E 5 packets of mixed Samson Basmass yellow virginia and sometimes burley)
as you see the myth of Odysseas still lives on,
finding ways to escape,

as for the political tense,
I wrote in post that Greek people thinking is changed,
the yesterday words and ask of President of democracy, simply justifies the written,
the Papademos case is just a trick so not to raise more the extra left and extra right,
the gallup gives >30% to Greek communists, and about 3-4% to Greek National sosialists,
that is a raise of 100% and 150% while the 3 parties that are in modern day gov lose about 50% (from 80% to 45%)

ElHorsto
02-01-12, 12:38
guess euro system was not well designed... Greece is just current location of the problem...

I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now. And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.

Maciamo
02-01-12, 13:31
I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now.

The European project for a common currency goes back several centuries. Napoleon was one of the first head of state to have considered it seriously. The euro, just like the European Union, has been a dream for millions of Europeans, a hope of living together in peace. If countries larger than the EU like USA and China can deal with a single currency, there is no reason that the EU shouldn't be able to do it too. The problem has always been the lack of proper financial and fiscal integration of member states within a common EU frame, but this issue should be solved soon. I think that this crisis was an inevitable step in making Euro-sceptics understand the need for further integration. There is just no way that economies as different as Germany and Greece could have continued on their separate path using the same currency without being part of a unified financial system.


And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.

Could you be more specific ?

Yetos
02-01-12, 13:31
I believe the EURO was deliberately designed by few traitors and morons in such a way that centrifugal forces create a vertical structure within EU, which is optimal for exploitation and control by third-parties. It is funny how politicians constantly predicted convergence, quite the opposite of what happened now. And regarding greece, Henry Kissinger is supposed to have said something interesting in the past.



So if you read Henry Kissinger's and hear him about Greece then you know a lot, If I write about them they will say I am hunting ghosts and I support global conspiracy theories etc, But we know who murdered Onasis family, and who shot the Kennedy's, no matter global conspiracy does not exist, :useless: :useless: :grin:


Just watch,
Cyprus the emirates of EU, will they allow it to developed and create its own industry?
or they all drop for her gas to take it cheap and push a warm day with Turkey?

ElHorsto
02-01-12, 15:31
The European project for a common currency goes back several centuries. Napoleon was one of the first head of state to have considered it seriously. The euro, just like the European Union, has been a dream for millions of Europeans, a hope of living together in peace.


I have the same hope. We just disagree about the way how the EURO was implemented, and I am saying that the EURO is threatening european peace and harmony now. The euro-sceptics just got their best arguments recently.



If countries larger than the EU like USA and China can deal with a single currency, there is no reason that the EU shouldn't be able to do it too. The problem has always been the lack of proper financial and fiscal integration of member states within a common EU frame, but this issue should be solved soon.


But thats exactly my point. The EURO already exists since 1998. Much later now, after many EU countries got into deep trouble (centrifugal force of debt), the "inevitable" fiscal union should come. But the problems were predicted by several experts already more than 10 years ago. There is no common currency possible without at least fiscal union beforehand. The fact that nobody of the responsible persons cared about the serious concerns is suspicious.

EDIT: Instead they were waiting all the time for convergence, until divergence occured finally as predicted.

Even Greenspan openly predicted 10 years ago that the EURO can not work that way. Meanwhile the economic differences and interest rates spreads within EURO zone skyrocket like never before. How is that good for EU integration? Euro-sceptics feel supported now. The time point when the fiscal union etc. is introduced is very crucial. It is being introduced exactly now, when problems already have become biggest. But without the EURO beforehand, these problems would not be remotely that big. I don't get what kind of plan that was.



I think that this crisis was an inevitable step in making Euro-sceptics understand the need for further integration. There is just no way that economies as different as Germany and Greece could have continued on their separate path using the same currency without being part of a unified financial system.


I'm not aware of so many Euro-sceptics back in 80s and 90s. Even some nationalists were supporting EU. And the ECU was already successfully in place. Most sceptics just appeared recently, exactly because they seem to be proven right. Thats a funny way to convince euro-sceptics.



Could you be more specific ?


That is from a greek Magazine, Oikonomikos Tachydromos on 14 Aug. 1997, "Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974". He was saying that "The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame...." Please google. Not surprisingly, there is plenty of discussion and theories about it in the net. Whether that is true or not, most greeks feel that this is happening now (again), what HK was saying.

Yetos
02-01-12, 16:41
I have the same hope. We just disagree about the way how the EURO was implemented, and I am saying that the EURO is threatening european peace and harmony now. The euro-sceptics just got their best arguments recently.



But thats exactly my point. The EURO already exists since 1998. Much later now, after many EU countries got into deep trouble (centrifugal force of debt), the "inevitable" fiscal union should come. But the problems were predicted by several experts already more than 10 years ago. There is no common currency possible without at least fiscal union beforehand. The fact that nobody of the responsible persons cared about the serious concerns is suspicious. Even Greenspan openly predicted 10 years ago that the EURO can not work that way. Meanwhile the economic differences and interest rates spreads within EURO zone skyrocket like never before. How is that good for EU integration? Euro-sceptics feel supported now. The time point when the fiscal union etc. is introduced is very crucial. It is being introduced exactly now, when problems already have become biggest. But without the EURO beforehand, these problems would not be remotely that big. I don't get what kind of plan that was.



I'm not aware of so many Euro-sceptics back in 80s and 90s. Even some nationalists were supporting EU. And the ECU was already successfully in place. Most sceptics just appeared recently, exactly because they seem to be proven right. Thats a funny way to convince euro-sceptics.



That is from a greek Magazine, Oikonomikos Tachydromos on 14 Aug. 1997, "Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974". He was saying that "The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame...." Please google. Not surprisingly, there is plenty of discussion and theories about it in the net. Whether that is true or not, most greeks feel that this is happening now (again), what HK was saying.

The story of HK is much older,
it comes from early 70's when he spoke that Greeks are the most united in culture that can resist and survive the most strange conditions, and the more we fight them (Junda 67-74) the more they resist,
the only case to rule over Greeks is to break their social unions and discrace their race,
that can be done only by spending money, and turn them against each other,
remember that CIA had 30 000 agents from Greek-americans at 70's, and how many smart students went to USA from 1960-1980 (about 40 000 brilliant minds gain free studies at US universities)
the same they are doing now in some other countries.
told you the one who is behind behind Kennedys and Onasis 'deaths'

HK is considered by Greeks especially Lefts and National-Sosialists the most Anti-Greek and most hateful person,
while even the lovers of Junda-nationalists do not speak about him.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ3C_waypMo

mrikë
03-01-12, 13:23
I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.

ElHorsto
03-01-12, 15:17
I think it's the same old issue: No European citizen wants to work their posteriors off, pay taxes regularly, end up paying for less developed countries in the Balkans. I think Greece was never, realistically speaking, economically fit enough to enter the EU. Naturally, I think the same goes for most countries in Balkans. Certainly, I do not agree with the policies that our government is running in my country (I would rather say detest them), and I am very much aware as how things run down here. In Kosovo all of us pay taxes regularly, despite low wages and everything, and we are furious as hell that most of our money goes for buying new cars and private helicopters for government officials. To hell with it, that makes us furious! Therefore, to plainly draw parallels, it is the same with Greece and EU.

Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.

ElHorsto
03-01-12, 17:32
EDIT: Instead they were waiting all the time for convergence, until divergence occured finally as predicted.


Just found a citation of former ECB chief economist Stark from 17.12.2011. His reasons for resignation was frustration about politicians rather than private reasons. According to him, the ECB warned very strongly in 2005 about diverging economies, but nobody cared:

Vor den Fehlentwicklungen in der Euro-Zone, die zu der gegenwärtigen Krise geführt haben, habe die Zentralbank rechtzeitig gewarnt. "Auf die unterschiedliche Entwicklung der Lohnstückkosten in der Euro-Zone haben wir schon 2005 sehr deutlich hingewiesen. Die Politik hat das damals nicht als akutes Problem angesehen", sagte Stark.

http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Stark-offenbart-sich-article5023056.html

Yetos
03-01-12, 20:23
Yes, greece was not fit for the EURO. But GS has helped greece to cheat into EURO, while our EU politicians closed their eyes. Due to the common EURO, greek economy could not get a grip to compete to stronger EU countries, but instead interest rates were low. Of course, corrupt politicians were always at place too.
The story of greece reminds me of the same story that happened to East German economy during the 90s, after the DM was introduced. East Germany is still mostly sponsored by West Germany, while Poland and Czech Republic with their own currencies were able to evolve successfully. Of course, East Germany had a higher living standard back then, but thats just because of common german welfare.


It seems like you can find the hidden letters,

your point is much close to truth,

clark85
13-01-12, 09:47
They should neither leave the Euro nor the Euroean Union. Both pretty bad ideas, economically and politically.

zanipolo
14-01-12, 01:42
They should neither leave the Euro nor the Euroean Union. Both pretty bad ideas, economically and politically.

a good question is should denmark ( and others) join the euro.
my opinion is no especially since these currency wars are being fought by USA and China

Cimmerianbloke
14-01-12, 23:32
There is no question about Greece leaving the EU here, but the Eurozone. From the very beginning, the Euro' Achilles Heel was the impossibility to devaluate. If exceptions had been made when the euro was at its strongest, exportations could have been boosted in countries that were in dire needs to increase their exports. The lack of flexibility and versatilty (and of imagination) of some leaders will eventually lead to its demise. Matter of time.

clark85
16-01-12, 09:44
There is no question about Greece leaving the EU here, but the Eurozone. From the very beginning, the Euro' Achilles Heel was the impossibility to devaluate. If exceptions had been made when the euro was at its strongest, exportations could have been boosted in countries that were in dire needs to increase their exports. The lack of flexibility and versatilty (and of imagination) of some leaders will eventually lead to its demise. Matter of time.

True that is the biggest weakness of the Euro. This story has two sides as well. Economically weaker countries like Greece or Portugal will not have the opportunity to devaluate their currency and thus willl stay economically weaker. Other countries like Germany, France and Italy with a strong economy have benefitted by this for many years though, because their currenty was worth less than it actually should be. In the end the strong economies will pay for the weak ones and that's it.

Cimmerianbloke
16-01-12, 23:22
Does anyone really believe that economies like Greece or Portugal can rival Italy's or Germany's? That is total nonsense and that is why the Eurozone is bound to fail. Competition is what made European economies thrive for centuries, not cooperation. Unless you create your very own fiscal paradise, like Switzerland and Luxembourg have done, you are tied to your population size and natural resources/services. Hence the current problems. Creating a socialist-like compound based on solidarity and welfare-state is going against the rule that market economies are fueled by competition. There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.

ElHorsto
30-01-12, 15:36
There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.

I'm not sure if you are criticising or advocating, but in any case I think the above is exactly what the EURO has mostly accomplished.

how yes no 3
03-03-12, 22:01
before I start talking

admistrators, please do not merge my new account with the previous one, as that has (in previous attempt) made my account not usable - getting "server too busy" message almost every time I try to load a page or submit a comment on the forum when logged in, and having my posts (achieved after zillion trials to submit them) look messed up due to losing all empty lines and many spaces)

cause of economical crisis in EU is clear. It is obvious from realizing that the gain in trade of Germany in last year corresponds more or less precisely to sum of deficit of other countries.

Point is EU is made by merging countries of unequal economies. When import/export taxes were removed, creating one big market, result was that small markets with not so good economy could not keep up with more efficent economies. In round of years, companies from the countries with more efficient economies (i.e. Germany) have penetrated markets that were previously protected by high import taxes. Local producers of goods were losing battle on those markets and were slowly going out of business.

If Germany has played strategically, companies from Germany could have economically conquer Europe - by starting production in the countries in which they took over the market. However, they didnot do that, which resulted in economic crisis in those countries, as with local economies collapsing more and more people were losing jobs.

Giving credits to Greece does not help Greece. If one owes a lot, you do not help him by giving person more credit.

EU was made in wrong way. It should have started with several regions of more or less equal economies. Only countries from same regions should have had tax free trade.. lets name clear regions: Germanic lands (Scandinavia, Benelux and Germany), Mediterranean lands and east Europe. Euro may have been deployed in all EU countries, but only regions of more or less similar economies would initially have free trade. Later, if the economies become more balanced (not sure that would ever happen as differences in efficiency of economies are tied to mentality and history and those two are tied to climate and geographical position) whole EU could become free trade zone. This way Mediterranian and east Europe countries practically commited suicide by entering EU and Germanic countries have won something only in short term, as getting a market full of poor people is not really a market where you can sell much except food.

its not Greece to blame for the problems it faces, and its not also Germany to blame. Architects of EU system are to blame because they did not carefully think of the consequences.

agapios
15-03-12, 15:48
Why everybody hates Greece so much? Yes, we got problems, but there are other forces that want us down. America forced us to freeze the Burgas-Alexandroupoli pipeline by pushing hard on Bulgaria and that came with embargo on oil supplies from Iran and Greece received 35% of its oil needs from there allowing us unlimited credit. We lost a source of cheap oil and that hit out economy because USA and EU gave us no alternative. America and Europe fending for themselves and it seems they don't care at all about those who got problems, especially Greece. After that I'm sure that America is full of dissemblers because US Congress is really double-dealing. Look at BP, they continue working with Iran within the Shah Deniz II project where Iran own 10%, making billions of dollars while Greece forced in exchange for help to support any decision against Iran. How that's possible? Greece never denied the fact that it got problems, but why we should be fools of circumstances in US-Europe confrontation with Iran?

Cimmerianbloke
16-03-12, 00:51
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Cimmerianbloke http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=391095#post391095)
There's only one number one, the others are only second-best and the weakest are bound to disappear.



I'm not sure if you are criticising or advocating, but in any case I think the above is exactly what the EURO has mostly accomplished.

Actually, I am neither criticiting nor advocating, I am just stating a fact. As you can confirm, the imbalance of economic systems acted as a catalyst to split them even deeper. Germany came up first hands down, while troubled economies are bound to sink. How yes no3 has meade a clever point too. I suppose most people with a basic knowledge of politics and economics would come to the same conclusion.

Obama bin Lyin
25-06-12, 22:14
Greece should be forced out of the EU. Their welfare state and corruption are a drag to progress. 1/3 of their population works for the state, 50% of their GDP is underground, and their enforcement of tax law is non-committal. Austerity should be enforced. The German taxpayer should not be held liable for providing their entitlement programs and lavish pensions.

Yetos
25-06-12, 23:30
Greece should be forced out of the EU. Their welfare state and corruption are a drag to progress. 1/3 of their population works for the state, 50% of their GDP is underground, and their enforcement of tax law is non-committal. Austerity should be enforced. The German taxpayer should not be held liable for providing their entitlement programs and lavish pensions.

I agree, but what about the Greek oil?

maybe then Greece, Cyprus etc was better to ask help from Russia and China, help to drill and protect their oil, and sell it really expensive to USA and rest Europe.
and in case you don't know the Russian fleet already pass the Hellispontos yesterday (Dardanellia) and is the same size with US 6th fleet

in case you are not well informed, the next memorandum is probably the license to drill the oil, at the cheapest cost, giving nothing to Greeks,

situation is much more complex than you think.

Keegah
26-06-12, 12:25
That's some username pal.

Welfare states are common throughout the EU and Europe in general, Greece is hardly the only one.

hope
26-06-12, 14:36
[QUOTE= Keegah.

Welfare states are common throughout the EU and Europe in general, Greece is hardly the only one.[/QUOTE]

Indeed.
Also if you just throw countries out of the union how long before you end up with something looking less of a European Union and more like an "old boys" club?

L.D.Brousse
26-06-12, 14:43
I think all countries should leave this union. I do not believe in the intertwining of our financial markets. In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union. All of this is part of the greater plan by allowing 3 world immigrants to flood across our borders to break the European strong hold we have enjoyed for so long. The long term goal here people is all races mixed all nations on earth as one One People One Earth laugh all you want it's coming because in Europe and the USA people have lost the will to fight but our enemy's have not

Yetos
26-06-12, 17:20
I think all countries should leave this union. I do not believe in the intertwining of our financial markets. In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union. All of this is part of the greater plan by allowing 3 world immigrants to flood across our borders to break the European strong hold we have enjoyed for so long. The long term goal here people is all races mixed all nations on earth as one One People One Earth laugh all you want it's coming because in Europe and the USA people have lost the will to fight but our enemy's have not

The crisis is not only in Europe,
It is also in USA,
consider what happened with Lehman's Brothers, and affect had in EU,
the crisis is moral, not economical,
why it is moral?
cause we send in prison protesters or 'small fish'
but we cover the 'big fish' since they own media or Banks,

The most wise I have heard about the crisis in East and West of Atlantic was by Iceland's prime minister,

When the Bank earn money, the profit is shared among managers and some 'shares' not to the whole country.
When the Bank has damage or loss, the damage and the loss is not paid by managers or shares, but from innocent people taxes,

WE ARE All LIVING THE DICTATORSHIP OF THE BANKSTERS (compare Gangsters)

PS
just considered that a famous athletic corporation well known as US American one has to produce a shoe in US from 1950,

ElHorsto
26-06-12, 18:20
In America we suffer for Europe's markets and we are not in this union.

No, it is europe who suffers mostly for US' debt now. Greece is just a red herring.

Keegah
26-06-12, 18:42
Here we go.

LeBrok
26-06-12, 23:53
No, it is europe who suffers mostly for US' debt now. Greece is just a red herring.

There are two different financial problems here, that compiled into one recession. One problem is public/government debt, spending excesses of public servants and ill economic polices, plus defaulting on its debt. The tip of this iceberg is Greece, followed by Italy, though Japan and USA are not much behind. Of course there are more indebted countries per capita than Greece but they are able to pay off the debt thanks to good economy.
Second financial problem was caused by housing bubble, and related derivatives - bank products, and not only in USA but also in Europe. It was due to relaxed qualification (for people) to borrow money, here for purpose of buying a house, plus domino effect caused by mortgage defaults causing banks collapse.


Now, it is hard to blame USA for this world crises. Even though they've relaxed housing financials first, they were eagerly followed by many european countries. Also creation of derivatives of mortgages, and related new products, started also in US first and was never regulated (complexity of a system, and lack of will), but again was blindly followed and copied by many Europeans.
I would like to stress that nobody forced anyone country to participate in these excesses.

The strongest example of none-participant is Canada. The biggest and closely connected to US economic partner. We didn't have housing bubble at all, regulation were much stricter, although 80% of us own houses. We didn't need to save our banks. Till today Canada is financially healthy, unemployment at 5%, and not much of recession here.




PS. My province Alberta needs 40,000 temporary workers right now. Government just streamlined acceptance process. Everybody skilled with some english welcome.

ElHorsto
27-06-12, 02:17
There are two different financial problems here, that compiled into one recession. One problem is public/government debt, spending excesses of public servants and ill economic polices, plus defaulting on its debt. The tip of this iceberg is Greece, followed by Italy, though Japan and USA are not much behind. Of course there are more indebted countries per capita than Greece but they are able to pay off the debt thanks to good economy.
Second financial problem was caused by housing bubble, and related derivatives - bank products, and not only in USA but also in Europe. It was due to relaxed qualification (for people) to borrow money, here for purpose of buying a house, plus domino effect caused by mortgage defaults causing banks collapse.


Now, it is hard to blame USA for this world crises. Even though they've relaxed housing financials first, they were eagerly followed by many european countries. Also creation of derivatives of mortgages, and related new products, started also in US first and was never regulated (complexity of a system, and lack of will), but again was blindly followed and copied by many Europeans.
I would like to stress that nobody forced anyone country to participate in these excesses.

The strongest example of none-participant is Canada. The biggest and closely connected to US economic partner. We didn't have housing bubble at all, regulation were much stricter, although 80% of us own houses. We didn't need to save our banks. Till today Canada is financially healthy, unemployment at 5%, and not much of recession here.




PS. My province Alberta needs 40,000 temporary workers right now. Government just streamlined acceptance process. Everybody skilled with some english welcome.

I agree with what you say and I did not at all intend to blame USA and whitewash the corrupt EU elites and the badly designed EURO. But I deny that USA are suffering from the EU crisis. To the contrary, I think the US benefits from the EU trouble, because the capital drain from US to EURO zone is being stopped (by downratings for instance) and attention gets distracted from the US debt problems. Not to mention how US house mortgages were packaged and massively sold to european banks few years ago, which now finally have to be paid by EU tax payers. If this was not the cause, it still was a major catalyst and timer of the EURO problems.

intorg
18-11-13, 16:18
Greece should stay in eurozone and in EU both. It must be much more important for the EU to stay together despite all difficulties.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/