PDA

View Full Version : Relationship between Y-DNA & Autosomal in Northern Europe



edao
06-11-11, 13:37
I have a question about the relationship between Y-DNA and Autosomal admixture.

1.If we take Scotland and Norway, would I be right to say that looking at the Autosomal (Northwest Euro)
it would indicate that there has been extensive interbreeding between the Scandinavians and the Scots?

My understanding Y-DNA is that it is passed down from father to son unchanged, so if that is the case then if I'm Scottish and I hold R1b and breed with a Norwegian female and we have a son he would then hold R1b. And vice versa if a Norwegian man(I1) bred with a Scottish woman their son would then hold I1. Is this correct?

2. If the above is true why is the distribution of Y-DNA between Scandinavia and Scotland not more consistent? For example Scotland is 72.5% R1b where as Norway is only 28%.

If its some kind of Viking raiding party spreading genes, I1 is 34% in Norway but only 9% in Scotland, if the two populations are so closely related in autosomal why isn't this showing up in Y-DNA?

Is it to do with mtDNA, or am I reading the information all wrong?

Knovas
06-11-11, 14:43
The Northwest European you see in both populations it does not mean exactly the same, although admixture classified it the same way. In the British Islands and Ireland they are more likely composed of R1b (Atlantic/Celtic folks), while Scandinavians probably have huge I1 autosomes (Nordic). There's Scandinavian influence in Britain, but it's not incredibly important in average. If you check the Mediterranean map, you'll see that also Mediterranean does not mean the same in all populations.

We'll have to wait for more accurate analysis, but for the moment, the Euro7 Calculator with 4 European clusters it's quite ilustrative.

You are right to consider MtDNA though. Y-DNA frequencies usuallly don't match with the autosomes. For example Iberia has a lot of R1b, and in my opinion the main composition is I2a1a* and similars. That makes sense when we see the high Southwestern in the Euro7 calculator, being this type of clades the best match for a cluster like this, rather than different R1b's (more likely Northwestern). And Iberia for example has a lot of MtDNA H...also Basques, but in my opinion they were the most influenced by R1b's, that's why they show higher Northwestern and have the highest R1b percent in all Iberia today.

And we could find other examples not matching Y-DNA frequencies. It's an indicator that must be considered with caution, and always comparing with autosomes to get a better idea.

Wilhelm
06-11-11, 20:03
There is also another example: Poland and Lithuania are autosomally very close, yet Lithuania has 40% of N1c and Poland 1%, so Y-DNA is just one part of the story, the relation with autosomal is not always obvious.

weissmacht
08-01-12, 22:38
Well of course there is going to be much higher Nordic Y-dna I1 in Norway-Thats is the population where its the most common and from where it came in a general sense.Scotland has many differant R1b types-the Celts were R1b carriers the Angles,Normans and some of the Vikings were also R1b carriers.So R1b has about three or four differnat origins im the Scottish population.As for the Nordic I1 thats actually more common in England than in Scotland.Scottish Vikings came from western Norway which has a mixture of Nordic I1 and Eastern R1a as well as some R1b.Denmark has more of a I1-R1b overlap.The Danish Vikings of Northern ENgland most lile y carried a little more I1 than the Norwegians of Scotland.Plus there are many other Nordic markers in Scotland not found in the rest of Britian except the Isle if Man-such as the Orcadian M17 ot whatver its called.Besides the source popultaion-the home or source of the Nordic I1 is going to always have a much higher amount of I1 than any popultaion where I1 was brought in from the outside by colonists who mixed with the natives of that population.

MOESAN
16-01-12, 18:06
Well of course there is going to be much higher Nordic Y-dna I1 in Norway-Thats is the population where its the most common and from where it came in a general sense.Scotland has many differant R1b types-the Celts were R1b carriers the Angles,Normans and some of the Vikings were also R1b carriers.So R1b has about three or four differnat origins im the Scottish population.As for the Nordic I1 thats actually more common in England than in Scotland.Scottish Vikings came from western Norway which has a mixture of Nordic I1 and Eastern R1a as well as some R1b.Denmark has more of a I1-R1b overlap.The Danish Vikings of Northern ENgland most lile y carried a little more I1 than the Norwegians of Scotland.Plus there are many other Nordic markers in Scotland not found in the rest of Britian except the Isle if Man-such as the Orcadian M17 ot whatver its called.Besides the source popultaion-the home or source of the Nordic I1 is going to always have a much higher amount of I1 than any popultaion where I1 was brought in from the outside by colonists who mixed with the natives of that population.

I know i don't seam "up-to-date" in my thoughts but I always believed that Y-R1b diverse SNPs are distributed in different populations (tribes) for a long time, populations separated in different geographic locations, for some hundreds and even thousands of years - I think Y-R-U106 (the bulk of it) is settled long time ago between Central Europe and South Baltic shores from the Netherlands to Lithuania and that it exchanged a lot of autosomals with an Y-I1 population (not a reproduction with only mens involved but also for sure reproduction with the females of this second populations and the contrary too!!! joke) - it's very possible that it occurred too with some N-W Y-R1a1 population -
the distribution of Y-RL21 should have been more W-N-W and coastal - the presence of this SNP in Scandinavia could have been the result of sea excursions and sea wanderings (North Atlantic Megaliths? First indo-europeanized N-W "autoctones"???) but it's only a bet, no proof -
for the Viking variety of genes present in Brittain I agree as a whole: it seams that the same sampling of Y-HGs was present also in Wirral region and Western Lancashire during the Middle Ages - Norwegian Vikings with a curious distribution of genes compared to the mean distribution in Norway as a whole - the weight of Danes seams being heavier in N-E and E England than in N-W England and Scotland (and ireland?) -
Scotland is very diverse for a so little country - but W-Scotland (excepted the Islands) and S-W appears to me far enough from Norway when speaking about autosomals as well as Y-HGs - even the crowded Lallands and the Center of Highlands are very 'celtic-pre-celtic' looking, - it's to say that autosomals include a lot of genes with diifferent stories (someones underwent natural selection) but someones surely correspond to phenotypes - and HG aren't so cut off from the autosomals in statistics, only when as you say the male population i very different in origin from the female one, or when a HG has knowed a success that spread its descendants to far countries for a long time -

King Niall
16-06-12, 09:14
I have a question about the relationship between Y-DNA and Autosomal admixture.

1.If we take Scotland and Norway, would I be right to say that looking at the Autosomal (Northwest Euro)
it would indicate that there has been extensive interbreeding between the Scandinavians and the Scots?

My understanding Y-DNA is that it is passed down from father to son unchanged, so if that is the case then if I'm Scottish and I hold R1b and breed with a Norwegian female and we have a son he would then hold R1b. And vice versa if a Norwegian man(I1) bred with a Scottish woman their son would then hold I1. Is this correct?

2. If the above is true why is the distribution of Y-DNA between Scandinavia and Scotland not more consistent? For example Scotland is 72.5% R1b where as Norway is only 28%.

If its some kind of Viking raiding party spreading genes, I1 is 34% in Norway but only 9% in Scotland, if the two populations are so closely related in autosomal why isn't this showing up in Y-DNA?

Is it to do with mtDNA, or am I reading the information all wrong?


The Vikings stole women as slaves. The women the Norwegians and Swedes have now might be Irish just like Iceland.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
21-08-13, 04:58
The person just makes of the group Northwestern Admixture in Europe or something it does not mean the countries have the exact same autosomal dna. It is just a made up group that makes a genetic continuum, and then compares who falls into this continuum. You could do the same thing and include finnish people with all eastern European populations and call it the East Scandinavian and Eastern Euro group or something like that and do the exact same thing.