If hg. IJ folks were Cro-magnon who were R* folks?

Goga

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Y-DNA haplogroup
R1a*
mtDNA haplogroup
HV1b2
cromagnon.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon


So I'm almost certain that Cro-Magnon were hg. IJ folks. But R* folks belong absolutely to a different lineage. What kind of species were that Homo sapiens?

Both native Europeans (hg. I1 & I2 folks) and native Middle Easterns (hg. J1 & J2 folks) were all descendants of Cro-Magnon, but who was the new newcomer that had R* lineage and migrated into West Eurasia?
 
I agree that Cro-Magnons almost certainly carried some IJ in their population, and that modern Haplogroup I is probably a descendant of that. I doubt, though, that Haplogroup J is descended from Cro-Magnons... Haplogroup J is probably descended from a different IJ carrying population.

R*, meanwhile, would have been very Asian in the Paleolithic. Pinpointing exactly where they were is more complicated, but older forms of R1a, R1b, and R2 help give us an understanding. I'm not familiar enough with the Asian Paleolithic to cite specific archaeological cultures that would have been R* dominant, though.
 
I just read this on wiki and according to me it's even possible that Crog-Magnon belonged to hg. IJK. So it is also possible that all haplogroups from IJK are from Cro-Magnon! Hg. G is from the Caucasus and is older than Cro-Magnon folks. So this Homo sapien haplogroup was in Western Eurasia even before the Cro-Magnon! Hg. E is also NOT from Cro-Magnon.


It is even possible that not only IJ (I* and J*) but also hg. 'R', 'N', 'T' & 'Q' ARE actually also
descendants of Cro-Magnon folks! And that only hg. G and E are different lineages!

Maciamo made this tree.
unledlas.jpg


"A 2003 sequencing on the mitochondrial DNA of two Cro-Magnons (23,000-year-old Paglicci 52 and 24,720-year-old Paglicci 12) published by an Italo-Spanish research team led by David Caramelli, identified the mtDNA as Haplogroup N.[22] Haplogroup N is found among modern populations of Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, and represent the northern branch of the out-of-Africa migration of modern humans. Its descendant haplogroups are found among modern North African, Eurasian, Polynesian and Native American populations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon
 
I just read this on wiki and according to me it's even possible that Crog-Magnon belonged to hg. IJK.

Yes, IJK is another possibility, as is F*, and some others, but since these don't have obvious modern descendants, they're less clear than IJ.

So it is also possible that all haplogroups from IJK are from Cro-Magnon!

"Possible" but I'd put the odds at infinitesimal. The centers of diversity for both modern J and modern K are very Asian. If one day we find some K* or similar in Cro-Magnon remains, it will almost certainly be a now-extinct branch.

It is even possible that not only IJ (I* and J*) but also hg. 'R', 'N', 'T' & 'Q' ARE actually also
descendants of Cro-Magnon folks! And that only hg. G and E are different lineages!

Where do you place the center of diversity of all of these supposedly Cro-Magnon lineages? Do you agree that the center of diversity is the best indicator of the point of origin?

"A 2003 sequencing on the mitochondrial DNA of two Cro-Magnons (23,000-year-old Paglicci 52 and 24,720-year-old Paglicci 12) published by an Italo-Spanish research team led by David Caramelli, identified the mtDNA as Haplogroup N.[22] Haplogroup N is found among modern populations of Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, and represent the northern branch of the out-of-Africa migration of modern humans. Its descendant haplogroups are found among modern North African, Eurasian, Polynesian and Native American populations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

The Caramelli studies weren't all that useful, unfortunately. They gave one mtDNA N with some certainty and two questionable results that could have been HV, but with little certainty. Paleolithic mtDNA is still a little sketchy, but it looks like Cro-Magnons probably had an array of haplogroups that included U, N, and maybe HV and R0. The Mesolilthic appears to correspond with an expansion of U and, on a smaller scale, H. See Jean Manco.

That all says little about Y-DNA, though, or your theory about Cro-Magnon origin of all major IJK lineages.
 
I'm a very simple person so I do think very simple. IF IJK was part of (Proto)-Cro-Magnon folks, all haplogroups that evolved from IJK are actually descendants of Cro-Magnon. So next haplogroups all evolved from IJK: 'I', 'J', 'R', 'N', 'T' and 'Q'. So that's was I assume that these haplogorups are from Cro-Magnon. All these haplogroups are from the same lineage.

While there is also a possibility that hg. 'E' was part of Qafzeh hominids. According to wiki they the Qafzeh humans seem to have co-existed with Neanderthals for up to 60 000 years in the Levant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnons

Here is a Qafzeh skull from the Levant!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Qafzeh_remains

Qafzeh.JPG
 
IF IJK was part of (Proto)-Cro-Magnon folks, that all haplogourps that evolved from IJK are actually decendats of Cro-Magnon.And of the next haplogroups evolved from IJK: 'I', 'J', 'R', 'N', 'T' and 'Q'. So that's was I assume that these haplogorups are from Cro-Magnon. All these haplogroups are from the same lineage.

It would follow that all IJK were descended from Cro-Magnon if the claim was that the IJK MRCA was Cro-Magnon. But the IJK MRCA was probably pre-Cro-Magnon. Hence only one surviving branch of IJK is likely to have descended from Cro-Magnon.
 
Hm Ok, but why do you think that Cro-Magnon only migrated into Europe and not to other parts of the world?

Btw, Cro-Magnon was together with the Neanderthals not the only hominid in Europe the so called Grimaldi Man with 'African' features lived also in Europe! Maybe that this Grimaldi Man belonged to a proto haplogroup of the European hg. 'E'!

Ancient Grimaldi fella (with AFRICAN features) from Italy!

grimaldi.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/theadventurouseye/sets/72157626333072663/detail/?page=3

spaceout.gif
 
Hm Ok, but why do you think that Cro-Magnon only migrated into Europe and not to other parts of the world?

Well, "Cro-Magnon" usually refers exclusively to those anatomically modern humans who migrated into Europe, not their cousins who remained in Asia. If by "Cro-Magnon" you mean "Paleolithic Europeans and their close cousins" I think you're mostly right in your analysis of IJK. But otherwise you need backmigrations and a subsequent bottleneck in Europe, which is making the picture more complicated than it is likely to have been.
 
Well, "Cro-Magnon" usually refers exclusively to those anatomically modern humans who migrated into Europe, not their cousins who remained in Asia. If by "Cro-Magnon" you mean "Paleolithic Europeans and their close cousins" I think you're mostly right in your analysis of IJK. But otherwise you need backmigrations and a subsequent bottleneck in Europe, which is making the picture more complicated than it is likely to have been.
Ok, but what if the original Cro-Magnon was IJ and evolved in Europe into hg. I and the same original Cro-Magnon of hg. IJ (NOT his cousin, but his brother or son) evolved into hg. J in the Middle East? Haplogroups I and J are actually very very close to each other!
 
Ok, but what if the original Cro-Magnon was IJ and evolved in Europe into hg. I and the same original Cro-Magnon of hg. IJ (NOT his cousin, but his brother or son) evolved into hg. J in the Middle East? Haplogroups I and J are actually very very close to each other!

I've already said that I doubt it, mainly because the center of diversity of J, and hence the likely point of origin of J, is in Asia. So for J to have a direct ancestor who passed through Europe, it requires an odd geographic wandering that's just not a good default assumption. The best assumption is that they remained in the Middle East.

Tell you what, if a study finds true J* or obvious pre-J (as in, IJ with a majority of J SNPs present and the right haplotype) that shows direct continuation with modern J in Paleolithic Europe, I'll bump this discussion and encourage everybody to give you lots of +rep, because it will have been something that nobody but you saw coming. Just don't count on that ever happening...
 
Hm Ok, but why do you think that Cro-Magnon only migrated into Europe and not to other parts of the world?

Btw, Cro-Magnon was together with the Neanderthals not the only hominid in Europe the so called Grimaldi Man with 'African' features lived also in Europe! Maybe that this Grimaldi Man belonged to a proto haplogroup of the European hg. 'E'!

Ancient Grimaldi fella (with AFRICAN features) from Italy!

grimaldi.jpg


http://www.flickr.com/photos/theadventurouseye/sets/72157626333072663/detail/?page=3

spaceout.gif

This Grimaldi family are OOLLDDD, ancient, rulers of the Republic of Genoa in the middle ages and now princes of Monaco.
Maybe we need to tap into their DNA :LOL: and find the Neanderthal truth
 
This Grimaldi family are OOLLDDD, ancient, rulers of the Republic of Genoa in the middle ages and now princes of Monaco.
Maybe we need to tap into their DNA :LOL: and find the Neanderthal truth
Good one :)
 
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I've already said that I doubt it, mainly because the center of diversity of J, and hence the likely point of origin of J, is in Asia. So for J to have a direct ancestor who passed through Europe, it requires an odd geographic wandering that's just not a good default assumption. The best assumption is that they remained in the Middle East.

Tell you what, if a study finds true J* or obvious pre-J (as in, IJ with a majority of J SNPs present and the right haplotype) that shows direct continuation with modern J in Paleolithic Europe, I'll bump this discussion and encourage everybody to give you lots of +rep, because it will have been something that nobody but you saw coming. Just don't count on that ever happening...
Of course is hg. J an Asian haplogroup, like hg. IJ was! I'm not saying that hg. J is from Europe. I'm just saying that the father of gh. J* (hg. IJ) entered Europe!

According to Eupedia hg. 'I' is only 25,000 years old. While proto-Cro-Magnon hominids entered Europe maybe 35,000 years ago. The earliest European cave paintings date to the Aurignacian, some 32,000 years ago! So it is impossible that they were already hg. 'I' folks when they entered Europe! So the probability is big that these 'cave painters' were still hg. IJ folks. And hg. IJ is from Asia.

Aurignacian cave painting:

6071-004-5744D672.jpg


Fom the Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave:

220px-Chauvethorses.jpg


Also according to me Cro-Magnon entered INTO Europe and not evolved (mutated) to a Cro-Magnon species IN Europe. Sure maybe they mutated into a different type in Europe, but they came all from Asia!

Haplogroup IJK is probably 45,000 years old. IF the Cro-Magnon that entred Europe at the firtst place were hg. IJK folks that would mean that R* is actuallty also a Cro-Magnon haplogroup!

But if that was not the case then haplogroup IJK, later NOP -} P* -} R* all mated with the different hominids before the came to Europe! But my question is who were these R* folks. And with what kind of hominid species did they mated?
 
This Chauvet hyena panther painting is at least 29,000 years old! It was painted by Cro-Magnon folks.

h)chauvethyena.jpg
 
Btw it's possible that when hg. IJ entered Europe that it mated with the Neanderthals and Grimaldi hominids and that's how we got hg. 'I*'.

While hg. IJ in West Asia mated also with the the Neanderthals but NOT with Grimaldi hominids but with Caucasian hominids! That's how we got hg. J*
 
Of course is hg. J an Asian haplogroup, like hg. IJ was! I'm not saying that hg. J is from Europe. I'm just saying that the father of gh. J* (hg. IJ) entered Europe!

According to Eupedia hg. 'I' is only 25,000 years old. While proto-Cro-Magnon hominids entered Europe maybe 35,000 years ago. The earliest European cave paintings date to the Aurignacian, some 32,000 years ago! So it is impossible that they were already hg. 'I' folks when they entered Europe! So the probability is big that these 'cave painters' were still hg. IJ folks. And hg. IJ is from Asia.

I agree that Cro-Magnons probably carried IJ for the same reason you think they did, but more populations would have carried IJ than just Cro-Magnons, including some Asian cousins of theirs. You're still not presenting a compelling argument for why the pre-J branch of IJ were Cro-Magnons rather than Asian cousins.

Haplogroup IJK is probably 45,000 years old. IF the Cro-Magnon that entred Europe at the firtst place were hg. IJK folks that would mean that R* is actuallty also a Cro-Magnon haplogroup!

It also wouldn't follow that R* have Cro-Magnon ancestors if we found IJK in a Cro-Magnon population. I would still suspect that R* (and the K branch as a whole) simply evolved from an Asian cousin.

Btw it's possible that when hg. IJ entered Europe that it mated with the Neanderthals and Grimaldi hominids and that's how we got hg. 'I*'.

While hg. IJ in West Asia mated also with the the Neanderthals but NOT with Grimaldi hominids but with Caucasian hominids! That's how we got hg. J*

...huh? Are you suggesting that Y-DNA mutates based on autosomal DNA? And that we wouldn't have a Y-DNA haplogroup tree without such an effect? Because that doesn't really make sense. We get I* and J* branching off of IJ regardless of who the carrier populations mated with. If we observe a separation and different mating patterns with non-Sapiens and other Sapiens populations, it's due to geographic isolation. I think that's what we're seeing with the split between I* and J*.
 
So I'm almost certain that Cro-Magnon were hg. IJ folks. But R* folks belong absolutely to a different lineage. What kind of species were that Homo sapiens?

Both native Europeans (hg. I1 & I2 folks) and native Middle Easterns (hg. J1 & J2 folks) were all descendants of Cro-Magnon, but who was the new newcomer that had R* lineage and migrated into West Eurasia?

as said yet by someones, it would be necessary to know what is 'Cro-Magnon' man: for somebody it's every paleolithic man or every european paleolithic man. But paleolithic men was diverse, there was more than a lineage. When I say (without trying to do a rule for the others) Cro-magnon, I say a phenotype that was found in Perigord Dordogne France before the LGM, with a serie of very homogene others phenotypes very close to him and forming a family with him. The Grimaldi people seam to have been a close population but more heterogene and with some negroid traits ON SOME OF THEM. The French CHARLES thought it was a variety of Cro-magnoid with some negroid details that came to Europe form Egypt or near Egypt. It could be either negroid admixture or features kept in a phenotype not completely evolved on the way to Cro-Magnon. The 'negroidism' depends on the specimen choosed to establish the paradygme -
But in the vicinity of well definite Cro-Magnon phenotypes lived also other phenotypes very different in features, (I 've in mind the Brünn and Combe-Capelle types that had maybe evolved in descendants differents from those of Cro-Magnon, brachycephalized or not). the only common point being the robustness of skeletons. It's sure for me that is was yet distinct lineages separated for a long time that met back in France at this time (not a douzen!!!). The same in Germany and Bohem (Brno/Brünn), where crossings became common. What is a pity is that they all won the name of 'cro-magnoid' even when they didn't share any immediate relationship.
I hold that it remain some almost unchanged descendants of the former form of Cro-magnon (the precise type of Perigord), just a litlle gracilized, not too much, and tha they are to be found in Wales and in general from the the Atlantic coasts to the North Sea coast, even if they could be found somwhere else. That 's not to say there are not other evolved descendants of Cro-magnon (someones looked at them as 'Borrebys') living side by side with them today. some occidental pseudo-'mediterranean' types too could be far cousins to these 'borrebys' , with a opposite evolution in a different environment, on 20 years.
coming back to HG's, I keep on option the possibility that some Y-I (ancestors of the precise Y-I2a1:Sardinia, Spain, Atlantic Coasts) was perhaps living in Western Europe not too far from some Y-R1b (close to R-P312 or not too far upstream) present here and there at low numbers (preventing the next mutations that 'll came far after) before the LGM and a first demographic explosion.

for metrics, the 'danubian' pseudo-mediterranean' type is far as a whole from these 'grimaldi' types, and closer to the ethiopian types, diminished and evolved (Chamitic? Y-E1b?) - these last are very far form the true negroid phenotypes and closer to Arabs mediterraneans for I know-
The same reasonment can accept the possibility of others Y-I (ancestors of Y-I1, Y-I2a2, I2b and scattered too) between Bohem and Ukraina, maybe the Eastern Caspian shores, and in the Eatsern Europe or Caucasus r from some Y-R1b (upstream to the central Europe derivees, cousins stayed there): we are too sure of a homogene geographic block of descendants of a same lineage on a long scale of time.
just some speculations and with respect
M
 
we are too sure of a homogene geographic block of descendants of a same lineage on a long scale of time.
just some speculations and with respect
M

I don't think that the fact that "Cro-Magnon" defines several different groups of heterogeneous people is a challenge to the obvious conclusions about Y-DNA, though. Because, regardless, Haplogroup I remains the only obvious modern Y-DNA descendant of Cro-Magnon.

If we finally manage to get a study done with several quality Y-DNA samples from Cro-Magnons (whichever subgroup), I fully expect them to have an array of haplogroups, probably including things like now-extinct branches of F, IJK, and C, in addition to IJ.

Personally I'm going to stay away from extrapolating Cro-Magnon phenotypes based on modern populations... too inexact a science, if you ask me.
 

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