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Taranis
10-11-11, 01:43
We've had a lot of heated discussions lately - some of them not located in the Linguistics section despite the fact that they should have been held there, which concerned the origin of the Albanians of the Albanian language. Because these were almost always off-topic in other threads I decided to create a proper, separate thread on it. There are a lot of misconceptions about the Albanian language in existence, some of them will have to elaborated on here. We do have other examples of IE languages that are also attested relatively late (or even later than Albanian), the Baltic languages being a prime example of this. However, the big difference is that we have multiple Baltic languages attested (Latvian, Lithuanian, Old Prussian) that help us for the reconstruction of Proto-Baltic. Likewise, we do have the Slavic languages which share a significant number of commonalities with Baltic, which gave rise to the concept of a Balto-Slavic branch of Indo-European. In contrast, there is just the Albanian language alone (which includes it's dialects), and it is pretty clear that today Albanian represents a distinct branch inside the Indo-European language family. This of course poses a significant problem from the perspective of research. Before you proceed reading the rest here, I would like to say that I'm obviously not an expert on Albanian. However, give how Albanian is an Indo-European language, the same basic rules that apply to for other IE languages can be applied to the Albanian language as well. Also note that this first post is only an introduction, and that I will get into some more details later. I must admit that it certainly is frivolous when a non-Albanian attempts to tell Albanians where their language comes from, but I thought I should make a bold attempt here.

General features of Albanian:
- The standard word order in Albanian is Subject-Verb-Object, as it is in many other Indo-European languages.
- Albanian has two genders, masculine and feminine, similar to the Romance languages.
- Albanian has five cases: nominative, genitive, dative, accusative and ablative. A sixth case, the vocative, exists vestigially. Two other cases from Proto-Indo-European, the Instrumental and the Locative, have been lost.

Unique Features in Albanian
There are a few rather unique features found in the Albanian language that should be noted:

- the (partial) preservation of the laryngeal sounds reconstructed to have existed in the Proto-Indo-European language (preserved in the shape of /h/). The only other branch of IE in which these laryngeal sounds have been preserved are the Anatolian languages (such as Hittite and Luwian). Note that this doesn't automatically mean a relationship with the Anatolian languages (in fact, that can be ruled out due to fundamentally different grammatical structures), but it is certainly a parallel.

- What I would like to call 'Semantic anomalies'. There is a set of Albanian words which clearly have cognates in other Indo-European languages which have however considerably changed but yet related meanings. The big surprise here is actually that the meaning in other branches of IE is generally the same whereas in Albanian it is different. Some examples of this include (compared against cognates in various other IE languages):

Albanian 'motër' ("sister") versus for example English "mother", Latin "mater", Irish "máthair", Lithuanian 'motina', Hindi "mātā" - which however all have the meaning 'mother'.
Albanian 'verdhë' ("yellow") versus in various Romance languages "Verde" (green)
Albanian 'gjelbert' ("green") versus German "gelb" (yellow, note that the Albanian word must be a Germanic or otherwise Centum loanword, because the PIE root word *g´hel- would have yielded 'dhel-' in Albanian, which can be indeed still seen in the word 'dhëlper', "fox")

General considerations on the origin
When we talk about the origins of any language, we should consider the following simple guideline: no language, given sufficient time, remains the same. The amount of change may vary, with some languages being more conservative over longer stretches of time, and languages changing drastically in relatively short amounts of time. Of the former, Greek is a good example, whereas of the latter the changes from Archaic (Oghamic) Irish to Old Irish, or from Latin to Old French are good examples - in which in only a few short centuries drastic changes occured to a language. What this means in the case of Albanian is that whatever language it is descended from must have invariably looked anywhere between somewhat to considerably different from modern-day Albanian - also depending on what time slice we talk about. In any case, we can be certain that Albanian (or Proto-Albanian) 2000 years ago did not look like modern-day Albanian. This, of course, makes it hard for us to compare the modern-day language with whatever language it's ancestor was.

"Albanoi" vs. "Shqiptar"
One crucial point to be considered is that the term "Albanians" is an exonym (compare "Welsh", "Germans"), while "Shqiptar" is the endonym (compare "Cymry", "Deutsche"). This means we have no way to verify if the "Albanians" recorded in ancient sources are really the same as the modern-day Albanians. The ancient (Proto-Albanian) cognate of "Shqiptar" would have been something akin to "Skiptar", which should have been rendered into something akin to "Skipteroi" or "Skipteri" in Greek/Roman sources. Since this cannot be found anywhere, we must assume that the Albanians did not self-designate themselves as "Skipteri" in Antiquity, and that this self-designation was adopted only later.

Possible origins of Albanian
The general consensus is that Albanian must be - with high likelihood - descended from one of the Paleo-Balkan languages. This is a "grab-all" term for the collection of the rather poorly attested languages that were spoken on the Balkan peninsula in Antiquity - including Dacian, Illyrian and Thracian. The relationship between these languages is disputed, but what is clear is that they were without exception Indo-European languages. In any case, there are several main rivaling hypotheses which I briefly want to elaborate on:

1) The Illyrian Hypothesis
The Illyrians were an Indo-European people who lived in the northwestern part of the Balkan peninsula, including the northern areas of modern-day Albania. Very little is known about the Illyrian language itself (exclusively onomastic), but it has been suggested as the ancestor of the Albanian language. Wether Illyrian is suitable as an ancestor stands and falls mainly with the question if Illyrian was a Centum language or a Satem language (Albanian being part of the latter). What is an additional problem with Illyrian is the fact that the Albanian language has been noted for it's scarcity of native naval and maritime terms (instead we find borrowings, such as 'tokë' (shore), which is derived from Slavic 'tok' (to flow)). As a result, the Proto-Albanians are generally assumed to have dwelled somewhere in inland, away from the sea. In contrast, the Illyrians are well-known to have possessed a highly sophisticated naval culture and were feared by both the Greeks and the Romans as pirates in the Adriatic sea. As such, the Illyrians lend themselves poorly as the ancestors to the Albanians.

2) The Dacian Hypothesis
The Dacians, who inhabited the eastern parts of the Balkans penninsula - as well as adjacent areas in central and eastern Europe are one of the main contenders as ancestors of the Albanians. In general, Dacian was a Satem language. Additionally, there is a large vocabulary of words shared by the Albanian and Romanian language - with Romanian being generally considered as a Romance language that has a Dacian substratum.The main problem with the Dacian hypothesis is that the Dacian-inhabited areas, are located sufficiently far away that one must ask for a considerable migration of the Proto-Albanians towards their present-day location.In any case, even if Albanian is not descended from the Dacian language, it is nonetheless clear that Dacian words entered the Albanian vocabulary just like they did enter Romanian.

3) The Thracian Hypothesis
While this hypothesis is rarely discussed and tends to be generally dismissed, but I think it should be elaborated why. Thracian in generally shares also many similarities with Albanian (including being a Satem language, and lexical similarities), but a relationship is unlikely for a different reason: the Thracians lived in an area that was to become completely hellenized in later history. Had the Proto-Albanians originated here, we would expect them to have much more Greek loanwords and very little in Latin loanwords. Instead, we only see relatively few (and ancient) Greek loanwords and a substantial amount of Latin loanwords. From that perspective, we must assume that the origins of the Albanians lie north of the Jireček Line that historically divided the Balkan penninsula into a Latin and Greek part.

Loanwords in Albanian
One set of evidence which provides additional evidence is the amount of loanwords from in Albanian. As with other languages, loanwords allow a relative chronology of when a word entered Albanian vocabulary due to it's adherence (or non-adherence) to Albanian sound laws. I will get to these sound laws later, but for now I would like to give an overview of the sources we can find, in chronological order:

- Classical (Dorian) Greek: the oldest loanwords found in Albanian, apparently, are from classical Greek, clearly predating the Roman period.
- Latin: the vast bulk of loanwords into Albanian are of Latin origin and these make up a substantial part of the Albanian vocabulary. These, naturally, date from the period of the Roman Empire.
- Germanic loanwords. Most of these are of East Germanic origin and likely date from the Migration Period (it cannot have been later due to the demise of East Germanic).
- Slavic loanwords. These too must have entered into the Albanian language during the Migration Period or in subsequent centuries.
- Turkic loanwords. These date from the Ottoman period. These include for instance 'Bakër' (copper) and 'Kallaj' (tin).

From this we can establish with certainty that we can be reasonably sure that the Albanians lived at their (very) approximate present-day location (the Balkan penninsula) since Classical Antiquity.

This is all for now as an introduction. I will post more later (in particular on Albanian sound laws). :good_job:

Elias2
10-11-11, 04:07
Thank you for taking the time to write this.

zanipolo
10-11-11, 04:18
great post

just something I like to add, the tribe mentioned as Albanoi was only recordered in 150AD by Ptolemy, while it has no place in this map below. 150AD is far too late for a tribal name, so it could be emigrants from elsewhere or a name given to a mix of people, like the Vidivarri in prussia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Popolazioni_della_Dalmazia_png.png
Note, Romans do not refer to illyrians as a people only a land, the people where all called dalmatians


next - the DNA is basically exclusibly E which is also in a big percentage with Greeks. I once believed that Albanians where from Dacian areas, but have recently read in Italian that they originated in the pindus mountains in western Thessally - some say ancient Molossians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png
Map above has Moesia, dacia, dardania and praevalitana as what the Romans referred to Dacia ...........so I could have been confused with this

Lastly , the 4 dialects/languages which make up the albanian language clearly shows a mixture of tribes , does it not?

Yetos
10-11-11, 05:42
Funny isn't it?

when Iapetoc was claiming about the same

At least he deserves a +1 rep

but how sure we are that Dacian was Satem?
in the thread about Dacian Language I apetoc arque and Belives that Dacian was Centum,
Except if Goths were satem too.

Taranis
10-11-11, 08:20
Thanks everybody.


but how sure we are that Dacian was Satem?
in the thread about Dacian Language I apetoc arque and Belives that Dacian was Centum,
Except if Goths were satem too.

Well, what does "Centum" and "Satem" mean, anyways? Basically it's all about the treatment of three sounds found in Proto-Indo-European (*k´, *g´ and *g´h) and the way the are reflected in the respective IE language. In the Centum languages, these sounds are merged with their respective plain velar counterparts (*k, *g, *gh) whereas in the Satem languages they are reflected as fricative sounds (such as /s/, /z/, /ʃ/ or /θ/).

Gothic was a Germanic language, hence without any doubt Centum. The Gothic word for 'hundred' was 'hunda'. You have a development of *k´ > *k > *χ > *h in Germanic (with *k´ > *k being the step of Centumization, as it is also found in Celtic, Italic, Greek and Tocharian).

Regarding Dacian, evidence of it's Satem nature comes from words which include reflexes of the above mentioned sounds in PIE. A good example of this is the deity name 'Zalmoxis'. The element 'zalm-' (thought to mean 'bear hide') is a cognate with Germanic 'helm-' (as in English 'helmet') as well as Lithuanian 'šalmas' (also meaning 'helmet'). The PIE root word is *k´el- (to hide, cover). While we are at it, the Albanian cognate is 'thelm' ('rags').

Taranis
10-11-11, 22:14
Here is a continuation of the previous, namely Albanian sound laws. Note that the list below is far from complete, but it's giving a bit of an overview over important Albanian sound laws (giving examples in each case), and also the sequence in which they occured:

De-Aspiration in Proto-Albanian
Early Proto-Albanian merged the voiced and unvoiced stop sounds from PIE:

*bh and *b
*dh and *d
*gh and *g
*g´h and *g´
*gwh and *gw

De-Aspiration is pretty common amongst the Indo-European languages. However, unlike some other branches of Indo-European (for example the Celtic languages), where this development is relatively late, it must be assumed that the development occured early in Proto-Albanian (due to the common treatment of aspirated and non-aspirated sounds), before many other Albanian sound laws applied.

In contrast to this, Greek for example retains the aspirated stops sounds from PIE as distinct sounds (as φ, θ and χ respectively).

Satemization in Proto-Albanian
This means the Palatovelar sounds inherited from PIE become fricative sounds in Albanian:

*k´ became *θ in Proto-Albanian
*g´ became *ð in Proto-Albanian

However, these sounds have a further later development (later than the 'Late Albanian developments' described below):

*θ is shifted to /s/ before /u/, /w/, /i/, /j/
*θ is shifted to /k/ before sonorants (and unchanged elsewhere)
*ð is shifted to /d/ if it's at the beginning of syllables and followed by a sibilant (unchanged elsewhere)

Note that /θ/ is spelled 'th' and /ð/ is spelled 'dh' in Standard Albanian orthography.

Examples:
PIE *g´ombh- (tooth/bite) > Albanian 'dhëmb' (tooth), compare with English 'comb' and Greek 'gomphos' (peg) and Lithuanian 'žambas' (corner)
PIE *g´hel- (yellow, golden) > Albanian 'dhelpër' (fox, originally 'Yellow One'), compare with German "gelb" (yellow)

Like other Satem languages, Proto-Albanian also adheres to the RUKI Law, which shifted *s > *ʃ at specific positions. However, Albanian (at a much later point) must have also shifted *s > *ʃ at other positions.

Other (relatively early) developments

*gw > *z (before PIE-inherited *i,*e)
*gw > *g (elsewhere)

*gw > *z must have occured before *gw > *g, because other *g is unaffected by this.

*kw > *s (before PIE-inherited *i, *e)
*kw > *k (elsewhere)

*kw > *s must have occured before *kw > *k, because other *k is unaffected by this.

Examples:
PIE *dhegwh- ('to burn' > Albanian 'djeg' ('to burn'), compare Old Irish 'daig' (fire), Latin 'febris' (fever)
PIE *kwel- ('wheel', 'to turn') > Albanian 'sjell' ('to turn'), compare English 'wheel', Latin 'collum' (neck), Russian 'kolo' (wheel)
PIE *gwesdo- > Proto-Albanian *geθ- > Albanian 'gjeth' ('leaf')

Late Albanian Developments

*s > *ɟ (only at initial positions)
*g > *ɟ (before secondary *i,*e)
/ɟ/ is written as 'gj' in standard Albanian orthography.

Note that at this stage, the shift applies to PIE *g, *gh, *gw, *gwh - assuming these aren't changed by previous sound laws).

PIE *ghend > Albanian 'gjen' ('to find'), compare Latin 'apprehendere' (to apprehend), English 'forget'

These sound laws also applies to Latin loanwords:

Latin 'argentum' > Albanian 'argjend' (silver)
Latin 'somnum' > Albanian 'gjumë' (sleep)
Latin 'serpens' > Albanian 'gjarpër' (snake)

*k > *c (before secondary *i,*e)
/c/ is written as 'q' in standard Albanian orthography.

Proto-Albanian *ken > Albanian 'qen' (dog)

This development must have occured very late (after ca. 500 AD) because Latin loanwards are subject to this sound law as well:
Latin 'cicer' > Albanian 'qiqer'
Latin 'civitas' > Albanian 'qytet'
Latin 'facies' > Albanian 'faqe'

Also note that this applies to PIE *kw that was previously shifted to *k, such as PIE *kwod > *që ('that', compare Latin 'quod')

*s > *ʃ (at non-RUKI positions)
PIE *septm̥ > Albanian 'shtatë' (seven)
This law also applied for Latin loanwords, for example Latin:
'sagitta' > Albanian 'shëngjete'

razor
10-11-11, 23:05
The "reply with quote" option doesn't seem to work for me (it "crowds" to the right). But let's try this:

You wrote:

"PIE *g´ombh- (tooth/bite) > Albanian 'dhëmb' (tooth)"

This is intriguing. In most Slavic languages (except Polish, I don't know about others) there is "denazalization" of the "tooth" word: thus "zub" not "zumb" in my native Ukrainian (note also the satemization of the *g). There is apparently no such process in Albanian. Does this retention of the nasal sound apply across the board in Albanian?

Taranis
10-11-11, 23:37
The "reply with quote" option doesn't seem to work for me (it "crowds" to the right). But let's try this:

Hmmm... that sounds like a serious technical problem. You should contact Maciamo about it.


You wrote:

"PIE *g´ombh- (tooth/bite) > Albanian 'dhëmb' (tooth)"

This is intriguing. In most Slavic languages (except Polish, I don't know about others) there is "denazalization" of the "tooth" word: thus "zub" not "zumb" in my native Ukrainian (note also the satemization of the *g). There is apparently no such process in Albanian. Does this retention of the nasal sound apply across the board in Albanian?

First off, you are absolutely correct that the Slavic languages (indeed, Balto-Slavic as a whole) shifted PIE *g´ to /z/. But as you can see, the loss of *m at the position is found in all branches of Slavic, as well as in Latvian:

Latvian 'Zobs'
Belorussian 'Zub'
Bulgarian 'Zŭb'
Czech 'Zub'
Slovak 'Zub'
Polish 'Ząb'
Croatian 'Zub'
Serbian 'Zub'
Slovenian 'Zob'
Russian 'Zub'
Ukrainian 'Zub'

In contrast, the Lithuanian cognate 'žambas' (which actually means 'corner', rather than 'tooth') retains the /m/.

Albanian also generally retains the /m/, but there instances where /n/ is lost, for example PIE *penkwe (five) > *pesë.

razor
11-11-11, 00:45
Thanks for the specifics. The contrast between Lithuanian and Latvian is interesting. But note that Polish "zab" (with a little tail below the "a") is actually pronounced "zonb" or "zomb". I gather from your list that it is the only Slavic language in which this nasal sound persists. An irregular process in Albanian, then.

kesi
11-11-11, 17:40
Hi,

In Albanian "tok" means land, earth and so it could also be used to refer to the seashore, I see no similar meaning with the slavic "to flow". Seashore is "breg-det" in Albanian, det-deti being the sea.

kesi
11-11-11, 17:43
Lastly , the 4 dialects/languages which make up the albanian language clearly shows a mixture of tribes , does it not?

Albanian language is made up of two main dialects (not languages), Geg and Tosk. Can you tell what are these 4 dialects or languages you refer to? thx

razor
11-11-11, 18:02
"bereg" sounds a lot like the Slavic word for "shore" [also "edge" "corner"]. What's interesting here is the "det" addition. It feels like a neologism on a Slavic basis...

Yetos
11-11-11, 18:12
Hi,

In Albanian "tok" means land, earth and so it could also be used to refer to the seashore, I see no similar meaning with the slavic "to flow". Seashore is "breg-det" in Albanian, det-deti being the sea.


how about the Greek βροχη Vrochi and virb βρεχω - βρεχ-ομαι (rain-get wet)
how about 'det; with δυτης δυω IE Dye english Dive
????

mrikë
11-11-11, 18:40
"bereg" sounds a lot like the Slavic word for "shore" [also "edge" "corner"]. What's interesting here is the "det" addition. It feels like a neologism on a Slavic basis...
Or the Slavic word is a neologism based on Albanian language, which is by far more plausible both historically and linguistically.


Props for the topic, I hope to get some free time on my hands to join the joyful discussion! :)

kesi
11-11-11, 19:00
how about the Greek βροχη Vrochi and virb βρεχω - βρεχ-ομαι (rain-get wet)
how about 'det; with δυτης δυω IE Dye english Dive
????

sorry I can't read the above completely, I don't get what's your question. Deti - sea is likely derived from the word for the Goddess of the sea, Thetis, one of the earliest deities in archaic Greece. We call Ionian sea, Deti Jon (literally our sea)

razor
11-11-11, 20:56
Why don't you add "archaeologically, culturally, theologically, philosophically" and anything else you can think of? That would make your point even more convincing (:=)))

Taranis
11-11-11, 21:08
I'd like to make a comment on "Breg(-det)". I would argue that it's native to neither languages (the Slavic family or Albanian). Why, because this gets clear when you look at cognates in other branches of Indo-European:

- Celtic has numerous cognates with this, all with the meaning 'high' or 'exalted'. For example 'Brig-' and '-briga' found in Celtiberian and Gaulish town names, for example the (latinized) name "Brigantium". This is the name of various Celtic towns, including modern-day Bragança (Portugal), Briançon (France) and Bregenz (Austria). It is also found in the Celtic deity name 'Brigantia', which is rendered in Irish as 'Brighid'. It's also found in modern Celtic languages as Welsh 'brig' (climax) and Scottish Gaelic 'brìg' (heap, pile).

- For the Germanic languages, examples are German 'Berg' (hill, mountain) and 'Burg' (castle). Also compare English '-burgh' and '-borough'.

- In Latin, 'fortis' ('strong', 'powerful'). There are numerous derivates in the Romance languages, as well as in English, including 'fort', 'force' and 'fortitude'.

- The word is also found in the other Satem language families. In Armenian, a cognate is 'bardzr' (բարձր), meaning 'high'. In Indo-Iranic, Avestan has the word 'berezant' meaning 'high' or 'lofty'.

From this, we can reconstruct the PIE word as 'bhereg´h', which would have been rendered as something akin to 'Brez-' in Balto-Slavic and 'Bredh' in Albanian. Since this isn't the case, I would argue that it's a loanword in both language families.


Or the Slavic word is a neologism based on Albanian language, which is by far more plausible both historically and linguistically.

Disregarding the above, I must also disagree on this assessment. Assuming the word didn't arrive from a third source in both languages (which I find more plausible, see above), I would actually wager that the word arrived from Slavic into Albanian, and not the other way around. The reason is that the word is found in all branches of the Slavic languages:

West Slavic:
Czech 'břeh'
Slovak 'breh'
Polish 'brzeg'

East Slavic:
Russian 'bereg'
Ukrainian 'bereg'

South Slavic:
Croatian/Serbian: 'brijeg'
Slovenian 'breg'
Bulgarian 'bryag'

If the word was borrowed from Albanian into Slavic, we'd likely only see a borrowing from Albanian into South Slavic, not into other branches. The way things are, it's far more likely that the word entered into Proto-Slavic from somewhere else, and I'm pretty sure that the Proto-Slavs did not have any contact with the Proto-Albanians due to living at rather different locations, and by the time the Slavs entered the Balkan, the Slavic language family was probably already in the process of fragmentation.

zanipolo
11-11-11, 21:15
Albanian language is made up of two main dialects (not languages), Geg and Tosk. Can you tell what are these 4 dialects or languages you refer to? thx

I placed link in other Albanian threads in Eupedia .....look them up ............there is even a map

In modern society, there is no difference between a language and a dialect . As an example, if sicily was to gain independence do you think the sicilian dialect will still be called a sicilian dialect or a language in the new nation!

Taranis
12-11-11, 00:16
sorry I can't read the above completely, I don't get what's your question. Deti - sea is likely derived from the word for the Goddess of the sea, Thetis, one of the earliest deities in archaic Greece. We call Ionian sea, Deti Jon (literally our sea)

I don't think that "Deti" derives from Thetis, primarily because I don't see how Classical Greek /tʰ/ would be rendered as /d/ into Albanian. Since Albanian didn't have any aspiration, /tʰ/ from Greek loanwords was rendered as /t/ into Albanian. Regarding the Ionian Sea, I'm pretty sure that this is a pseudo-etymology, playing on the pun between "Ionian" rendered into Albanian (Jon) and 'ours' (Jonë).

Endri
12-11-11, 01:45
I don't think that "Deti" derives from Thetis, primarily because I don't see how Classical Greek /tʰ/ would be rendered as /d/ into Albanian. Since Albanian didn't have any aspiration, /tʰ/ from Greek loanwords was rendered as /t/ into Albanian. Regarding the Ionian Sea, I'm pretty sure that this is a pseudo-etymology, playing on the pun between "Ionian" rendered into Albanian (Jon) and 'ours' (Jonë).

1) To confuse or pronounce /t/ like /d/ , /k/ like /g/, /p/ like /b/ aren't very rare in albanian. Now i didn't know that Classical Greek /th/ turned into albanian /t/ since i'm no linguistic or try to be, but since /t/ and /d/ in albanian not rarely are pronounced the same couldn't it have happened during some period of time that /t/ became /d/?

2) 'Ours' in albanian is 'Ynë". 'Jonë' doesn't exist in albanian sorry and 'Jon' is dialect.

3) Somewhere in some posts above i read smth about the word 'Toke" being the same with the Slav word 'Tok'. Toke in albanian means land or earth. Also in dialect exists the word 'Tok' which means 'Together'.

Taranis
12-11-11, 02:17
1) To confuse or pronounce /t/ like /d/ , /k/ like /g/, /p/ like /b/ aren't very rare in albanian. Now i didn't know that Classical Greek /th/ turned into albanian /t/ since i'm no linguistic or try to be, but since /t/ and /d/ in albanian not rarely are pronounced the same couldn't it have happened during some period of time that /t/ became /d/?

/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.


2) 'Ours' in albanian is 'Ynë". 'Jonë' doesn't exist in albanian sorry and 'Jon' is dialect.

Well, mea culpa.


3) Somewhere in some posts above i read smth about the word 'Toke" being the same with the Slav word 'Tok'. Toke in albanian means land or earth. Also in dialect exists the word 'Tok' which means 'Together'.

I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".

razor
12-11-11, 02:39
Just one correction. In Ukrainian the "g" becomes soft and is pronounced as in Czech and Slovak ("bereh"). I'm not sure about Belorusian.

Endri
12-11-11, 11:30
/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.

Well you're the expert but when spoken 'Teti' and 'Deti' sound the same in albanian. Just sayin'.


I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".

'flow' in albanian is 'rrjedhë' and 'current' is 'rrymë'. So they have no obvious connection to the slavic word 'tok'.

kesi
12-11-11, 11:43
I'd like to make a comment on "Breg(-det)". I would argue that it's native to neither languages (the Slavic family or Albanian). Why, because this gets clear when you look at cognates in other branches of Indo-European:

- Celtic has numerous cognates with this, all with the meaning 'high' or 'exalted'. For example 'Brig-' and '-briga' found in Celtiberian and Gaulish town names, for example the (latinized) name "Brigantium". This is the name of various Celtic towns, including modern-day Bragança (Portugal), Briançon (France) and Bregenz (Austria). It is also found in the Celtic deity name 'Brigantia', which is rendered in Irish as 'Brighid'. It's also found in modern Celtic languages as Welsh 'brig' (climax) and Scottish Gaelic 'brìg' (heap, pile).

- For the Germanic languages, examples are German 'Berg' (hill, mountain) and 'Burg' (castle). Also compare English '-burgh' and '-borough'.

- In Latin, 'fortis' ('strong', 'powerful'). There are numerous derivates in the Romance languages, as well as in English, including 'fort', 'force' and 'fortitude'.

- The word is also found in the other Satem language families. In Armenian, a cognate is 'bardzr' (բարձր), meaning 'high'. In Indo-Iranic, Avestan has the word 'berezant' meaning 'high' or 'lofty'.

From this, we can reconstruct the PIE word as 'bhereg´h', which would have been rendered as something akin to 'Brez-' in Balto-Slavic and 'Bredh' in Albanian. Since this isn't the case, I would argue that it's a loanword in both language families.



Disregarding the above, I must also disagree on this assessment. Assuming the word didn't arrive from a third source in both languages (which I find more plausible, see above), I would actually wager that the word arrived from Slavic into Albanian, and not the other way around. The reason is that the word is found in all branches of the Slavic languages:

West Slavic:
Czech 'břeh'
Slovak 'breh'
Polish 'brzeg'

East Slavic:
Russian 'bereg'
Ukrainian 'bereg'

South Slavic:
Croatian/Serbian: 'brijeg'
Slovenian 'breg'
Bulgarian 'bryag'

If the word was borrowed from Albanian into Slavic, we'd likely only see a borrowing from Albanian into South Slavic, not into other branches. The way things are, it's far more likely that the word entered into Proto-Slavic from somewhere else, and I'm pretty sure that the Proto-Slavs did not have any contact with the Proto-Albanians due to living at rather different locations, and by the time the Slavs entered the Balkan, the Slavic language family was probably already in the process of fragmentation.

or proto-slavic took this word from another source and Albanian form a different one. The original meaning for "brig" is a hill whereas in Albanian now this only means "shore" and nothing else as far as I know. We have the eg. for the word "preug" - prag (Alb).

Albs also have fort (strong) and burg (prison)

kesi
12-11-11, 11:50
/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.



Well, mea culpa.



I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".

first of all consonants (Th) as in thigh and (T) (tie) and (D) die - are quite similar in Albanian, so Thetis is easily rendered in Deti, like a child trying to say Deti says Theti.

As far as Toke, the meaning in Albanian is the opposite to the one in slavic, we can easily say they have nothing in common. Toke in Albanian is mud, land (property), earth (planet), so Toka=Terra, or the slavs borrowed this word from Albanian giving a different meaning.

kesi
12-11-11, 11:57
1)

2) 'Ours' in albanian is 'Ynë". 'Jonë' doesn't exist in albanian sorry and 'Jon' is dialect.

.

What dialect is jone? When I was a child I always thought that the Ionian sea belonged to us due to the name. In fact, jon is a possessive pronoun used with names of feminine gender, eg:

(M) Deti im (my sea) - (F) Toka ime (my land)
Deti yt - (your sea) - Toka jote (your sea)
Deti i tij / e saj (his/her) - Toka e tij/e saj

Deti yne (our sea) - Toka jone (our land)
etc

kesi
12-11-11, 12:02
I placed link in other Albanian threads in Eupedia .....look them up ............there is even a map

In modern society, there is no difference between a language and a dialect . As an example, if sicily was to gain independence do you think the sicilian dialect will still be called a sicilian dialect or a language in the new nation!

Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.

Taranis
12-11-11, 12:43
first of all consonants (Th) as in thigh and (T) (tie) and (D) die - are quite similar in Albanian, so Thetis is easily rendered in Deti, like a child trying to say Deti says Theti.

I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti".


As far as Toke, the meaning in Albanian is the opposite to the one in slavic, we can easily say they have nothing in common. Toke in Albanian is mud, land (property), earth (planet), so Toka=Terra, or the slavs borrowed this word from Albanian giving a different meaning.

I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

zanipolo
12-11-11, 12:53
word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

Prussian. aglo 'rain':
Lithuanian. lietus 'rain'
and Latvian. lietus; rain

Prussian. assanis 'autumn'
Lithuanian. ruduo 'autumn',
Latvian. rudens; autumn

Prussian. panno 'fire'
Goth. fon
Lithuanian. ugnis 'fire'
Latvian. uguns 'fire

Can we sumerise what these different albanian words come from?

zanipolo
12-11-11, 12:59
Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.

This is part of the article. i will find the language map


Nowadays, Albanian people can be divided into two major groups, the Ghegs (in the North) and the Tosks (in the South) (http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/2010/01/22/y-chromosome-dna-haplogroup-i-and-macedonians) (Note:see Y hg I), according to the Albanian dialect they speak, plus a number of cultural minorities, including the Gabels and the Jevgs. The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria, and are among the most politically,
economically and socially neglected groups in the country.
The so-called Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a
minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area
and claim an Egyptian origin.

gabels and jevgs are the other 2 dialects

Taranis
12-11-11, 14:20
word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

Prussian. aglo 'rain':
Lithuanian. lietus 'rain'
and Latvian. lietus; rain

Prussian. assanis 'autumn'
Lithuanian. ruduo 'autumn',
Latvian. rudens; autumn

Prussian. panno 'fire'
Goth. fon
Lithuanian. ugnis 'fire'
Latvian. uguns 'fire

Can we sumerise what these different albanian words come from?

A few thoughts here:

- Old Prussian "Panno" (as well as Gothic "Fon") is derived from PIE *pewor ('fire'), which includes the English word "fire" as a cognate, as well as the Greek word 'pyr' (fire).

- "Ugnis"/"Uguns" is a cognate with Latin "igneus", as well as the Hindu deity name "Agni" (god of fire).

- "Ruduo"/"Rudens" is certainly related with the PIE word for "red" (*reudh-), which probably derives from the fact that leaves change their color to red in autumn.

kesi
12-11-11, 17:13
I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti"

How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.


I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

Yetos
12-11-11, 22:06
How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.



Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

Sorry guys but nobody ever read Iapetoc, but I am sure all read the Bullshit of A Kolla

Breg Deti
Greek words Βροχη Virb Bρεχω - Βρεχ-ομαι Βρεχ χ is family of χκγ latin kgc and Β το family of Bpvf
so the word seems to be from same family origin Bρεχ (brech ch as h in Herod) and breg
Now Deti and Thetis
Thetis was God but Virb δυω or Dye or baptise, or make-get wet is also in all forms like noun δυτης etc
remember that aphrodite was ανα-δυω-μενη ana-duo-meni
so the word is simmilar rooted the english word Diver -Dive
in fact is more close due to t and not v

about the word anie (ship) just remember that Athenean word was ναιας-ναυς naias-naus and virb was νεω neo and in plural νηαι-nie (ships)
the root is old Pelasgian - Peleset and is the same root with the Christian Patriarch Noah,
or from Greek times colonies changed through time from naia to anie
personnaly I believe is not an IE word but an Arcado-Cypriot - Levantine- Minor asian

Now about Thetis or Tethys
the Virb Theo Θεω means run Fast, so God = Θεος = The one who runs extremely fast,
in Homer we found her as ηεριη meaning very fast, the other one is Εως eos (morning light)
named as ηρι iri-eri, virb exist also in τρι-ηρεις Trierens means 3 times faster,
according Homer was daughter of Nereus (sea god) but was also the replacer of Titanis Εως Eos

so although sea nymph Thetis or Tethys means fast runner

search the virb θεω

now the word Βροχη βρεχω is considered more new in Greek that the word υετος
while the Homeric is υει -ui and precipitation is υετος, compare with Slavic lie,

about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.

Taranis
13-11-11, 01:24
(I'll answer the first part later)


Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin.

The reason for this 'scepticism' as you call it is quite simple: if the words in question are cognates with PIE, but do not adhere to native Albanian sound laws, they must be loanwords. What applies for any other loanword in any other IE language applies for Albanian as well. It's as easy as that.

In any case, I maintain that Latin *r cannot have yielded *k in Albanian, and hence the origin must be a different one.



Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian?


This is slightly incorrect. The PIE root word is *kap- (PIE *k generally yields *h in Germanic). Regarding Albanian, what I would actually expect here is "kap".


The root word for Albanian "jap" is in my opinion more likely PIE *ep (or *Hp) meaning 'take' or 'grasp'. Cognates would be Latin 'apere', 'apex', 'ineptus'



Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.


As I said, the point is that this word can't be native of the basic fact that the PIE root word is *bhereg´h and not *bheregh. It cannot be native to either. The word must be originated from a Centum language, and it's compatible with Celtic and Germanic.


about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.

Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language... :laughing:

Having said this, there are some words that are clearly parallels between Albanian and Celtic that did not evade my observation. This includes:

- Albanian 'Ari' ('bear') is found in Celtic: Gaulish 'Artos', Welsh 'Arth' and Breton 'Arzh'. At the same time, of course, the word is also found in Greek as 'Arktos' and in Armenian as 'Arj' (արջ). This connection must be via PIE.

- Albanian 'Botë' ('world') is also found in Celtic: in the Gaulish tribal name 'Bituriges' (literally 'world kings'), Old Irish 'bith' and Welsh 'byd'.

(*a joke answer here: "Albion", "Alba" - "Albania", it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it? :nuts: )

Asturrulumbo
13-11-11, 01:47
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

zanipolo
13-11-11, 02:29
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans

Asturrulumbo
13-11-11, 03:16
If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans
And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.

Sile
13-11-11, 03:30
And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.

there you go

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=cm-VwKgY8jcC&pg=PA77&dq=illyrian+language&hl=en&ei=Ch2_Tpi9D-XDmQX6r52dBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=illyrian%20language&f=false

zanipolo
13-11-11, 03:50
The Illyrian Language



Language Name:
Illyrian


Once Spoken in:
Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Croatia
Montenegro



Language Code :
xil (Former code: XILL)



Status:
Extinct


Family:
Indo-European (http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/get-familyid.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=IE)



Subgroup:
Illyrian (http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/get-familyid.cfm?CFTREEITEMKEY=IEH)


Subgrouping Code:
IEH


Brief Description:
An ancient language of the Balkans. Based upon geographical proximity, this is traditionally seen as the ancestor of Modern Albanian. It is more likely, however, that Thracian is Modern Albanian's ancestor, since both Albanian and Thracian belong to the Satem group of Indo-European, while Illyrian belonged to the Centum group. 2nd half of 1st Millennium BC - 1st half of 1st Millennium AD.




most sites say Centum, some say Satem. this one also says Albanian is closer to thracian

Yetos
13-11-11, 09:56
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

Illyrian according Greek History was a language that got Celticised or was from Celtic origin,

a group of Celtic Tribes invade Balkans much before troyan war, so Illyrian was a mix of P celtic with a non IE that greeks call Pelasgian,
according History Illyrians are sons of Illyros, but in their names we find The Keltos in Pannoni Basin
that means that Early Greeks believe that Celtic were from Illyrian origin, since Keltos was son of Illyros, but it was different,
That makes clear that Illyrian should be at Centum languages, since Celtic was a Centum language, a possible Italo-Celtic language mixed with a non IE.

there is also another theory that area of Illyria (not Illyricum) parts of Makedonia Dardania Paeonia were not IE but got IE from Vryges (phrygians)
Vryges until today are connected with 4 wider families
Brigantes as Celtic
Burgudes as Germanic
Bryges as Thracian
Bryges as para-Greek from Greco-aryan origin (Homeric, pre-Homeric, the later Skudra case)
Bryges play a Big roll in Balkans, since for some they are ones that turn IE the Locals,
Brygians or Phrygians were a Holy Nation by Makedonians, Especially in Upper (west) by ellimians
while their alter name By Argeiads was Mygdonians.

Their language was Isotones with Greek, that means they probably were Centum,

so Illyrian was probably Centum from Both Hypothesis.



Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language... http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/laughing.gif

I was talking about the theme Breg from Breg Deti #17

zanipolo
13-11-11, 11:43
Illyrian according Greek History was a language that got Celticised or was from Celtic origin,

a group of Celtic Tribes invade Balkans much before troyan war, so Illyrian was a mix of P celtic with a non IE that greeks call Pelasgian,
according History Illyrians are sons of Illyros, but in their names we find The Keltos in Pannoni Basin
that means that Early Greeks believe that Celtic were from Illyrian origin, since Keltos was son of Illyros, but it was different,
That makes clear that Illyrian should be at Centum languages, since Celtic was a Centum language, a possible Italo-Celtic language mixed with a non IE.

there is also another theory that area of Illyria (not Illyricum) parts of Makedonia Dardania Paeonia were not IE but got IE from Vryges (phrygians)
Vryges until today are connected with 4 wider families
Brigantes as Celtic
Burgudes as Germanic
Bryges as Thracian
Bryges as para-Greek from Greco-aryan origin (Homeric, pre-Homeric, the later Skudra case)
Bryges play a Big roll in Balkans, since for some they are ones that turn IE the Locals,
Brygians or Phrygians were a Holy Nation by Makedonians, Especially in Upper (west) by ellimians
while their alter name By Argeiads was Mygdonians.

Their language was Isotones with Greek, that means they probably were Centum,

so Illyrian was probably Centum from Both Hypothesis.



I was talking about the theme Breg from Breg Deti #17


I heard this before, but what is confusing is that in the ancient times celtic ( i have read this from many web sites ) was a language and not a tribe, so did you mean gallic-celts or germanic-celts. gallic tribes where in eastern austria at the time, like the taurisci and carni tribes.
celtic is a culture now btw

Taranis
13-11-11, 12:12
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.


And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.

Well, honestly, the image isn't clear because I would say that there is evidence for both​ in the area.

Evidence for Centum definitely is this:

'Argyruntum' from PIE *arg´- (silvery, glittering), compare Greek 'Argyros', Latin 'Argentum', Irish 'Airgead'

'Acruvium' from PIE *ak´- (sharp), compare Latin 'acer', Greek 'akros'

kesi
13-11-11, 15:54
Egyptians and Romanoi people do not share origin, ethnicity and language with either of the balkan peoples where they live in, be it Albania, Serbia, Greece, Rumania etc. So they are not an Albanian tribe and they do not speak a dialect of Albanian.

Taranis
13-11-11, 16:03
Egyptians and Romanoi people do not share origin, ethnicity and language with either of the balkan peoples where they live in, be it Albania, Serbia, Greece, Rumania etc. So they are not an Albanian tribe and they do not speak a dialect of Albanian.

I absolutely agree. This has little part in this discussion (ie, the origin and development of the Albanian language). To be honest, it eludes me why Zanipolo brought this up.

kesi
13-11-11, 20:10
Taranis, my point regarding the PIE -Kap- and - gap- is that these two words are preserved unchanged in the Albanian language

PIE- Kap - grasp
Alb- Kap - grasp, catch

PIE- Gap - give, receive
Alb- jap (nap -dialect) - give

So why is this is not mentioned but instead all focus is to find the cognates in latin, german, english etc.

Btw, "bote" (world in Alb), "byth" in Old Irish and "byd" - what meaning they have? we have the world - the variant like in Old Irish but it definitely does not mean "the world":)

Some word in Gaelick / Welsh shared in Alb:

Galish - Alb
Busu (mouth) - Buza (lip)
Ceio (lament) - Qaj (cry)
Iomadh (much) - Madh (large,a lot)

kesi
13-11-11, 20:26
Sorry guys but nobody ever read Iapetoc, but I am sure all read the Bullshit of A Kolla

for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).

Taranis
13-11-11, 20:54
Tarantis, my point regarding the PIE -Kap- and - gap- is that these two words are preserved unchanged in the Albanian language

PIE- Kap - grasp
Alb- Kap - grasp, catch

PIE- Gap - give, receive
Alb- jap (nap -dialect) - give

Actually "jap" is clearly not unchanged. The PIE root word is reconstructed with a laryngeal sound.


So why is this is not mentioned but instead all focus is to find the cognates in latin, german, english etc.

The reason I brought up specific words at the beginning is to explicitly visualize Albanian sound laws (ie, where there are changes from PIE). To show that, I used cognates from other IE languages. Now, *k and *p are retained unchanged in Albanian. Well, *k is retained under these conditions, it's shifted to /s/ or /c/ (written 'q' in Standard Albanian Orthography) in other contexts. The other reason was to show loanwords, and also what the loanwords can tell us about the relative chronology of Albanian sound laws.

We can be pretty certain that the *k > *c sound shift didn't happen until after the Roman period because Latin loanwords are subject to it (civitas > qytet).

You must not let yourself be fooled by the fact that Albanian (or indeed any other IE language) is conservative in a specific sound law and preserved the original sound. Just because it preserved one or two sounds doesn't mean Albanian preserved the complete "original condition". The example above (and many others I provided) show that this clearly isn't the case and that Albanian possesses a specific set of sound laws.


Btw, "bote" (world in Alb), "byth" in Old Irish and "byd" - what meaning they have? we have the world - the variant like in Old Irish but it definitely does not mean "the world":)

The world also means "world" in both Old Irish (bith) and Welsh (byd). By the way, the link must here be between PIE, otherwise you can't explain why it's /i/ in Celtic and /o/ in Albanian.


Some word in Gaelick / Welsh shared in Alb:

Galish - Alb
Busu (mouth) - Buza (lip)
Ceio (lament) - Qaj (cry)
Iomadh (much) - Madh (large,a lot)

I definitely disagree about the last one, because you must not let yourself be confused by Irish or Albanian orthography. The fact that it's "dh" (or /ð/) in Albanian suggests that it comes from an earlier *mag´ or *mag´h. Because of this, I believe the word is related with Latin 'magis' and Greek 'megas', instead (note that I'm unaware of a cognate of that word in a Celtic language).

EDIT: Also, "dh" in Irish, at least at a final position is silent. I'm also confused which language you took those words from, because lament is 'caoin' in Irish, and 'caoidh' in Scottish Gaelic.

Yetos
13-11-11, 21:46
for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).


every Greek philologist that reads Kolla laughs, :laughing:

Now about loans or origin

as I said many times for me ancient Illyrian was not Albanian
but a mix of Celtic + a non IE (minor-asian or Arcado-Cypriot (para phoenician))
later enter the messapic in area
and a colony of Dacian the Germidava, the ones Greek call thermidava, the ptolemys Albanopolis,
is the start area of the Albanian language wich later with Army of Maniakis and the pop movements of Anju and Hunyades gathered there,
Pre Albanian was a Daco-Thracian language which overwhelmed the Illyrian but kept words from old languages and loans,
I don't want to claim that Breg is a loan from Greek or from Celtic etc, But I am sure that is Old Illyrian (either as loan from greek or celtic either as PIE origin) which survived in modern Albanian since they might have no sea words
same with anie, probably from the non IE branch of Illyrian that survive after the Albanization,

and that is also the mistake of kolla, Kolla claims that Dorians were Albanians and try to connect in Homeric,
But from the survived of Dorian dialects we find a totaly non ALbanian language, check Tsakonian dialect, which is the most vivid example of ancient Dorian, more than Grico of South Italy,
Γρουσσα να μου Τσακωνικα Grussa na mu Tsakonika (my language is tsakonika)
ρωταετε να σας επω (rotaete na sas epo) ask me to tell you
just tell in it Albanian to see any connection,

as for rest better read the posts, and read again Kolla and then start, eponymous does not make you wise,

Yetos
13-11-11, 22:06
for us to read Iapetoc he should publish sth and then we can be in a position to see who writes bullshit among the two, a forumer with a nickname or the arvanite Aristidh Kola.

So according to your explanation of - breg - deti - anije - we can conclude that they are old words (not recent loans), used by people living around the same territory as Albs and preserved with this meaning only in the Albanian language (deti and anije).


every Greek philologist that reads Kolla laughs, :laughing:

Now about loans or origin

as I said many times for me ancient Illyrian was not Albanian
but a mix of Celtic + a non IE (minor-asian or Arcado-Cypriot (para phoenician))
later enter the messapic in area
and a colony of Dacian the Germidava, the ones Greek call thermidava, the ptolemys Albanopolis,
is the start area of the Albanian language wich later with Army of Maniakis and the pop movements of Anju and Hunyades gathered there,
Pre Albanian was a Daco-Thracian language which overwhelmed the Illyrian but kept words from old languages and loans,
I don't want to claim that Breg is a loan from Greek or from Celtic etc, But I am sure that is Old Illyrian (either as loan from greek or celtic either as PIE origin) which survived in modern Albanian since they might have no sea words
same with anie, probably from the non IE branch of Illyrian that survive after the Albanization,

and that is also the mistake of kolla, Kolla claims that Dorians were Albanians and try to connect in Homeric,
But from the survived of Dorian dialects we find a totaly non ALbanian language, check Tsakonian dialect, which is the most vivid example of ancient Dorian, more than Grico of South Italy,
Γρουσσα να μου Τσακωνικα Grussa na mu Tsakonika (my language is tsakonika)
ρωταετε να σας επω (rotaete na sas epo) ask me to tell you
just tell in it Albanian to see any connection,

as for rest better read the posts, and read again Kolla and then start, eponymous does not make you wise





I heard this before, but what is confusing is that in the ancient times celtic ( i have read this from many web sites ) was a language and not a tribe, so did you mean gallic-celts or germanic-celts. gallic tribes where in eastern austria at the time, like the taurisci and carni tribes.
celtic is a culture now btw

well I said Celtic tribes, if you like celtic speaking tribes is ok I think

the certain is P celtic,
P celtic speaking tribes many times entered Balkans,
compare the later scordisci Galates etc
I believe that from N Italy to Pannoni Basin (modern serbia) the area was full of Celtic speaking tribes

the mistake of Greeks, or the misunderstanding is that Greek writters believed that Celtic were sons of Illyrians, probably due to pop, the connection although is clear, for example we know about Liburnian, but do not see connection of Liburnian with Illyros,
so the result is that was a connection in ancient Illyrian with Celtic, the mistake is that Illyrians were a mix of locals + a non IE plus Celtic,

the difference among Thracians and Celtic and Illyrian speaking it was clear I believe in Ancient Greek writers

Endri
13-11-11, 23:46
So...hmm with all this loaned words what words are actually albanian?

Taranis
13-11-11, 23:50
So...hmm with all this loaned words what words are actually albanian?

Well, Albanian has a substantial amount of loanwords, so much is clear. But I've provided enough examples here at the beginning of 'native' words that are clearly derived from PIE without borrowings from elsewhere.

zanipolo
14-11-11, 09:11
Illyria state included a few tribes placed in the south of the western Balkans (Autariates were noted in some sources as formers of this state). All authors have mentioned it in their writings to avoid misunderstanding, since all of them were using "Illyrians" for all of these people. Literacy was not some part of Illyrian culture so our knowledge about them came from Greek and Roman inscriptions. Illyrians were a tribe (Illyroi, Ilyrii) in present-day Albania for early Greek writers, they were several tribes in the age of Illyria state for later Greek writers (Authariates, Taulanti,...), they were tens of tribes for Roman writers in the age of forming Illyricum province of the Roman Empire.
Stipčević mentioned around 70 different tribes in his "Iliri" book. This article uses the name in the same manner as the authors of the sources so... for Liburni, Delmatae, Iapodes, Histrii, Daesitiaes, Maezaei, Dindari, Oseriates, Deuri, Daorsi, Vardaei and so on... Actually they didn't call themselves "Illyrians", neither the habitants of Illyria did (there's no proof)! That's how Greeks and Romans call them and so do we at present.
the way it stands regarding the Illyrian-Albanian issue is too simplistic. It states that scholars think Albanians are descended from Illyrians, or if not, then Dacians. However, most scholars now - even certain Albanologists from Albania- plainly state, that in fact we do not know where they are from. There is more evidence against an Illyrian origin than for it. So this article would be better if it clarified that whilst some theorists that Albanians descended from Illyrians (if we forget the 1000 year gap between the two groups) , in reality we do not know where they are from (due to lack of any significant Albanian chronicles or state in the Balkans).

The main part of Illyrians was probably formed of autochtonuous I1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I1b), Thracians of E3b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3b), proto-Greeks of J2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA)). It's possible that Dorian migration was actually migration of some proto-Illyrians to the south east where they were lately Helenised during Iron Age. It gives explanation why many authors find ancient Macedones as "perfect" admixture of Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. In the same place there is perfect admixture of I1b, E3b and J2 even at present. Modern Albanians fall into the same gene pool. Language doesn't help too much here because it's very unstable component in ethnogenesis processes,
Since albanian is most E then thracian seems the origin of albanians

Yetos
14-11-11, 10:00
Illyria state included a few tribes placed in the south of the western Balkans (Autariates were noted in some sources as formers of this state). All authors have mentioned it in their writings to avoid misunderstanding, since all of them were using "Illyrians" for all of these people. Literacy was not some part of Illyrian culture so our knowledge about them came from Greek and Roman inscriptions. Illyrians were a tribe (Illyroi, Ilyrii) in present-day Albania for early Greek writers, they were several tribes in the age of Illyria state for later Greek writers (Authariates, Taulanti,...), they were tens of tribes for Roman writers in the age of forming Illyricum province of the Roman Empire.
Stipčević mentioned around 70 different tribes in his "Iliri" book. This article uses the name in the same manner as the authors of the sources so... for Liburni, Delmatae, Iapodes, Histrii, Daesitiaes, Maezaei, Dindari, Oseriates, Deuri, Daorsi, Vardaei and so on... Actually they didn't call themselves "Illyrians", neither the habitants of Illyria did (there's no proof)! That's how Greeks and Romans call them and so do we at present.
the way it stands regarding the Illyrian-Albanian issue is too simplistic. It states that scholars think Albanians are descended from Illyrians, or if not, then Dacians. However, most scholars now - even certain Albanologists from Albania- plainly state, that in fact we do not know where they are from. There is more evidence against an Illyrian origin than for it. So this article would be better if it clarified that whilst some theorists that Albanians descended from Illyrians (if we forget the 1000 year gap between the two groups) , in reality we do not know where they are from (due to lack of any significant Albanian chronicles or state in the Balkans).

The main part of Illyrians was probably formed of autochtonuous I1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I1b), Thracians of E3b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E3b), proto-Greeks of J2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29). It's possible that Dorian migration was actually migration of some proto-Illyrians to the south east where they were lately Helenised during Iron Age. It gives explanation why many authors find ancient Macedones as "perfect" admixture of Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. In the same place there is perfect admixture of I1b, E3b and J2 even at present. Modern Albanians fall into the same gene pool. Language doesn't help too much here because it's very unstable component in ethnogenesis processes,
Since albanian is most E then thracian seems the origin of albanians


well explained,

My arguments
Dorians and dorian language is clearly Greek the most Celtic-sound Branch of 4 Greeks dialects compare with Ionian which is more Anatolian


about Makedonians Iapetoc described a good and quite precise time event, in a simmilar thread

the problem is that E in Balkans is not Greek not Albanian not Thracian same as G
E is imported at the times of Cadmus probably around 2000 BC when copper (Κυπρος) trade was in its high,
E is possibly Levantine or south minor asian and connects exactly as time the history of Cadmus and Illyrus
G is south minor asian and probably an allie of Troyans
G fits exactly with the Hattians in minor asia
the most certain is that E expand to Illyria when Illyros invade or defend the Celtic that entered Illyria,
somewhere I read that Illyros tomb was an exhibit until Christians destroy it
that means that area of Upper Makedonia and parts of Illyria were habited by a non IE people,
for example in Cadmus capital thebes we found the Atalanti in Illyros we found the Taulanti and in Crete the Talos and meny other,

dorians and their language has nothinbg to do Illyria,
from their starting point infact we might say that they were R1a
although Linguistically they sound more Celtic

many scholars claim that Dorians was a Bryges sub-tribe

the move of E to Dardania can easily be explained with the invasion of Illyros and cadmus in Both Greece and Illyria,
while in case of Thracia is probably after Nova roma or even before from Epigoni times

Now about Makedonia and its cities-states or nations,

Makedonia has 2 Greek Branches The Argeiads, The Locri (Locri is probably the mother tribe of Dorians)
1 main tribe that Makedonian also recogn as Holy or Mother tribe the Bryges (especially their remnants the Mygdonians)
the Pelasgian remnants especially in Upper makedonia and Ematheia (Holy land, Mat-tio or mat-dias)
the thracian remnants like Pieri who worship Eorda or Arda and Sirris,
Meaning a family of Thracian tribes that are not that much connected with the odrysee ones or the tribali etc,
remember that Paeon is considered son Agrios meaning that these tribes like Paiones are Thracian but share more with Greeks
we might say of Greek influence.

the connection among Illyrians and Macedonians is that both had a simmilar ancestor ( in partial) , The around pelagonia E people,
in south of lake Lychnitis was Cadmus lands means more Thebeans (more Greek influenced) while in North was more Illyrian
meaning that southern Pelasgians accepted easily the Greek while Northerns accepted easily the Illyrian

on a general point you are correct that Makedonians were a mix of Greeks with Thracian and Pelagonians,
A core of Bottiaioi Thettaloi Argeiads Locri which allied or Unify Thracians and Pelagonians
Illyrian we might say that were relatives due to Pelagoanians.

kesi
14-11-11, 11:08
the three words discussed in detail here - breg - deti - anije - are not loanwords, in fact deti and anije spoken by people in the pre-historic Balkans are preserved unchanged only in the Albanian language. We can see ANIE in ancient scripts.

let's continue with the topic.
Proto-IE features The demonstrative pronoun *ko is ancestral to Albanian ky/kjo and English he.

Albanian and other Indo-European languages
Albanian muaj ri nënë motër natë hundë tre zi kuq gjelbërt verdhë ujk

Other Indo-European languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages)

English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language)
month
new
mother
sister
night
nose
three
black
red
green
yellow
wolf


Lithuanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language)
mėnesis
naujas
motina
sesuo
naktis
nosis
trys
juodas
raudonas
žalias
geltonas
vilkas


Old Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic)
měsęcь
novъ
mati
sestra
noštь
nosъ
tri(je)
črъnъ
črъvenъ
zelenъ
žьltъ
vlьkъ


Czech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_language)
měsíc
nový
matka
sestra
noc
nos
tři
černý
červený
zelený
žlutý
vlk


Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek)
μήν
mḗn
νέος
néos
μήτηρ
mḗter
ἀδελφή
adelphḗ
νύξ
nýks
ῥίς
rhís
τρεῖς
treîs
μέλας
mélas
ἐρυθρός
erythrós
χλωρός
khlōrós
ξανθός
ksanthós
λύκος
lýkos


Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language)
ամիս
amis
նոր
nor
մայր
mayr
քույր
k'uyr
գիշեր
gišer
քիթ
k'it
երեք
yerek'
սեւ
sev
կարմիր
karmir
կանաչ
kanač
դեղին
deġin
գայլ
gayl


Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language)
mēnsis
novus
māter
soror
nox
nāsus
trēs
āter, niger
ruber
viridis
flāvus
lupus


Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language)

nuadh
máthair
siúr
oidhche
srón
trí
dubh
ruadh
glas
buidhe
faolchú


Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit)
māsa
nava
mātṛ
svasṛ
nakta/nish
nasa
tri
kāla
rudhira
hari
pīta
vṛka



Some cognates with Illyrian:


mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal[/URL]
bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-72)
drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni
delme (sheep); cf. Alb dele (sheep) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-74)
dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë
sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-76)
delme (sheep); cf. Alb dele (sheep)
Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf": (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Millenium_Studies-75)
brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" (< PA *brutiā)
loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" (< PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" (< PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" (< PA laugista) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-IG-79)
mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)
rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. OAlb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) (< PA *rina) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)


Early Greek loans There are some 30 ancient-Greek loanwords in Albanian, of which some relate to north-western Doric Greek, which point to contacts with Doric colonies in Albanian coast and inland. Early Greek loanwords borrowed into Albanian mainly denoted commodity items and trade goods.



mokër "millstone" < Doric Greek mākhaná "device, instrument" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-82)
mollë "apple" < Doric Greek mālon "device, instrument"
drapër "sickle" < Doric Greek drápanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Linguistics_p.412-83)
kumbull "plum" < Doric Greek kokkúmelon
brukë "Tamariske" < Doric Greek murikh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Ancient_Indo-European_Dialects_p.102-84)
trumzë "thyme" < Doric Greek thýmbrā, thrýmbrē
lakër "cabbage, green vegetables" < Gk lákhanon "green; vegetable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Ancient_Indo-European_Dialects_p.102-84)
presh "leek" < Gk práson
bagëm "oil for anointment" < Gk báptisma "anointment" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-Proto-Albanian_Author_Vladimir_.C4.96_p.23-85)
lëpjetë "orach, dock" < Gk lápathon
bletë "hive; bee" < Greco-Latin < Gk (Attic) mélitta "honey-bee" (vs. Gk (Ionic) mélissa). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-86)
çiklamin "purple" < Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-88) kyklā́mīnos[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#cite_note-89)

Taranis
14-11-11, 12:51
the three words discussed in detail here - breg - deti - anije - are not loanwords, in fact deti and anije spoken by people in the pre-historic Balkans are preserved unchanged only in the Albanian language.

I've mentioned before, cognates of "Breg" exist in other branches of Indo-European (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Armenian and Indo-Iranic), where the word generally means something related to "high" (or in the case of Latin, strong). Since the word is "Breg" in Albanian and not *breð or "Bredh" (which would be expected) this must be a loanword in Albanian, just like it is into the Slavic languages.

If as you claim, these words have no cognates in other languages, we would have to expect them to be pre-Indo-European. I am very sceptical of that notion.


We can see ANIE in ancient scripts.

Could you cite or provide a link where you got that from? I'd be interested to see your source there.


let's continue with the topic.

Why did you cut off Albanian from that table? It's a very good example to show some of the "semantic anomalies" which I mentioned at the beginning: motër, verdhë, gjelbert.

There is also this Greek loanword:


trumzë "thyme" < Doric Greek thýmbrā, thrýmbrē

The word above is interesting because it shows what I mentioned before that Classical Greek /tʰ/ was rendered as /t/ into Albanian.

Taranis
14-11-11, 13:15
By the way, there is an etymology for "det":

"Shortening of dialectal dēt, from archaic dejt, dejët (Arbëreshë), from Proto-Albanian *deubeta, from pre-Albanian *dʰéubetos, enlargement of Proto-Indo-European *dʰeubos ‘deep’ (compare English deep, Lithuanian dubùs)."

Now 'deep' is a very good word to circumscribe the sea, isn't it?

For the record, the loss of intermediate /b/ is attested in Albanian, in particular from Latin loanwords:

Latin 'cubitus' ("cubit") > kut (yardstick)
Latin 'bubulcus' ("ploughman") > bujk (farmer)

Likewise, for "anije", I would suggest a relationship with the Albanian word 'enë' (dish).

Endri
14-11-11, 18:37
Well, Albanian has a substantial amount of loanwords, so much is clear. But I've provided enough examples here at the beginning of 'native' words that are clearly derived from PIE without borrowings from elsewhere.

Yes, i know albanian has lots of borrowings and maybe i'm blind or dumb but i couldn't find any post where you mentioned any native word directly from PIE.

1)So do you know any word in albanian that is directly from PIE?
2)'kut' is an albanian word?
3)Could you determine what language the word 'goja', 'mouth' english, is borrowed from? Or if it is from PIE without borrowing? (just my curiosity)
4)For smo like me who isn't an expert and knows nearly shit about languages can you explain in few words what Satem and Centum languages are?

Thanks, hope i didn't bother you.

zanipolo
14-11-11, 21:44
Yes, i know albanian has lots of borrowings and maybe i'm blind or dumb but i couldn't find any post where you mentioned any native word directly from PIE.

1)So do you know any word in albanian that is directly from PIE?
2)'kut' is an albanian word?
3)Could you determine what language the word 'goja', 'mouth' english, is borrowed from? Or if it is from PIE without borrowing? (just my curiosity)
4)For smo like me who isn't an expert and knows nearly shit about languages can you explain in few words what Satem and Centum languages are?

Thanks, hope i didn't bother you.

As per #3 ...............goja is venetian slang for throat, the proper spelling is gola, but the l is what linguistics call the venetian vanishing l.
so its pronounced ( go...ar ) The j in the Venetian alphabet ( italian does not have J ) is a y sound in the mainland , but can disappear in colonial Venet
Another example is the word for the city of Milano, its spelt Milan with a vanishing l , so its pronounced ( me ..arn )
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Jz2V1LL2u1YC&pg=PR17&dq=venetian+vanishing+l&hl=en&ei=gG3BTtKLHLHzmAX40dH9Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venetian%20vanishing%20l&f=false

One of the 5 dialects of Venetian is called Colonial venet and runs from istria to Montenegro, greek islands , so goja could be part of this.

Endri
14-11-11, 22:24
I know of the word 'Gola' but also it is 'ingoia' which is 'swallow'. The sound J and I are very similar in albanian when prounced like U and Y so not rarely italian words from I have became a J.


Besides 'Gola' means throat, 'Ingoia' is swallow and 'Goja' is mouth. Could it be that 'ingoia' meant smth like 'in the mouth'? And during the times the word 'goia' was lost or became/got substituted by 'bocca' ?

Taranis
14-11-11, 22:46
Yes, i know albanian has lots of borrowings and maybe i'm blind or dumb but i couldn't find any post where you mentioned any native word directly from PIE.

1)So do you know any word in albanian that is directly from PIE?

Amongst the words mentioned earlier in this thread, I would like to explicitly mention the following words:


- motër (sister in Albanian, but "mother" in other IE languages)
- dhëlper ("fox", coming from PIE literally 'yellow one')
- dhëmb (tooth)
- gjeth (leaf)
- djeg (to burn)
- sjell (to turn)
- gjen (to find)
- qen (dog)
- qe (that)
- jap (to give)
- kap (to grasp)
- ari (bear)
- botë (world)
- qaj (to cry)


- basic numerals (një, dy, tre, katër, pesë, gjashtë, shtatë, tetë, nentë, dhjetë), but not the words for "hundred", which is in turn a compound word derived from Latin ('njëqind' = Alb. 'nje' = one + Lat. "centum' = "hundred").

(note that the list is obviously far from exhausted :smile: )


2)'kut' is an albanian word?

Yes, I've found it in Albanian dictionaries.


3)Could you determine what language the word 'goja', 'mouth' english, is borrowed from? Or if it is from PIE without borrowing? (just my curiosity)

I will get back to that later.


4)For smo like me who isn't an expert and knows nearly shit about languages can you explain in few words what Satem and Centum languages are?

Thanks, hope i didn't bother you.

"Centum" and "Satem" describes a fundamental distinction (and sound laws) of the Indo-European languages, going back to the treatment of sounds found in Proto-Indo-European called the "palatovelars". These are usually labled:

*k´ *g´ *g´h

The names "Centum" and "Satem" derive from the Latin (Centum) and Avestan (Satem) words for "hundred", which are representative of these sound laws and the two groups of languages inside Indo-European that are respectively Centum languages and Satem languages. In the Centum languages, these palatovelars are merged with the so-called 'plain' velars (*k, *g, *gh). In the Satem languagese, the palatovelars are instead turned into s/z/sh-like sounds.

Centum languages include:
- the Celtic languages
- the Germanic languages
- the Italic languages (Latin and the modern Romance languages)
- Greek
- Tocharian (an extinct language spoken in western China)

Satem languages include:
- the Baltic languages
- the Slavic languages
- Dacian and Thracian
- Albanian
- Armenian
- the Indo-Iranic languages

In Albanian *k´ generally becomes "th", whereas *g´ and *g´h become "dh" (there are a few additional rules, which I elaborated on earlier in this thread).

zanipolo
14-11-11, 23:06
I know of the word 'Gola' but also it is 'ingoia' which is 'swallow'. The sound J and I are very similar in albanian when prounced like U and Y so not rarely italian words from I have became a J.


Besides 'Gola' means throat, 'Ingoia' is swallow and 'Goja' is mouth. Could it be that 'ingoia' meant smth like 'in the mouth'? And during the times the word 'goia' was lost or became/got substituted by 'bocca' ?

I mentioned Venetian due to their ownership of Durres and other albanain lands during the late middle ages, I did not mention Italian because the only time Italy owned albania was during Mussolini. If you claim its Italian then the albanian word goja is modern and nothing to do with the conversation


EDIT : I forgot to mention that people alter words that they accept from another language and use it for something else.
example - The Illyrian word for snake is BRISA, the venetian word is BISA ( in italian its serpente ), yet the venetian used BRISA for their word to slide (as in snake ) , that word is SBRISA, so tribes do require to change new words and create another

Endri
15-11-11, 00:12
1) Under Venetian rule was much more than just Durres. The area around Scodra since Ottoman times was always under Venetian rule.

2) I'm not talking about Italian but Latin. Since there already are a lot of words with Latin origin maybe 'ingoia' is e remnants of latin and 'goia' is latin or old latin or some latin at a period of time that means 'mouth' since the 'I' is much simpler to become the albanian 'J' then a missing sound in Venetian.

zanipolo
15-11-11, 00:18
1) Under Venetian rule was much more than just Durres. The area around Scodra since Ottoman times was always under Venetian rule.

2) I'm not talking about Italian but Latin. Since there already are a lot of words with Latin origin maybe 'ingoia' is e remnants of latin and 'goia' is latin or old latin or some latin at a period of time that means 'mouth' since the 'I' is much simpler to become the albanian 'J' then a missing sound in Venetian.


fair enough

Endri
15-11-11, 00:30
Taranis


1) About 'kut'. Didn't know it existed. Apparently it does. Weird word.


2)'leaf' is 'gjethe' and not 'gjeth'


3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'
3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.

Yetos
15-11-11, 01:17
As per #3 ...............goja is venetian slang for throat, the proper spelling is gola, but the l is what linguistics call the venetian vanishing l.
so its pronounced ( go...ar ) The j in the Venetian alphabet ( italian does not have J ) is a y sound in the mainland , but can disappear in colonial Venet
Another example is the word for the city of Milano, its spelt Milan with a vanishing l , so its pronounced ( me ..arn )
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Jz2V1LL2u1YC&pg=PR17&dq=venetian+vanishing+l&hl=en&ei=gG3BTtKLHLHzmAX40dH9Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venetian vanishing l&f=false

One of the 5 dialects of Venetian is called Colonial venet and runs from istria to Montenegro, greek islands , so goja could be part of this.

interesting
so it reach until Pontus mountains
the Greek pontian for Neck are 2 the original Greek laimos and also Γουλα Gula and drinking is Gulia
I did not expect it to reach so far in North east Turkey !!!!!
amazing

Taranis
15-11-11, 22:16
2)'leaf' is 'gjethe' and not 'gjeth'

Well, that was a typo on my end. It was supposed to be 'gjethe' indeed.


3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'

Sorry, yes. It was supposed to be 'që'. An innocent mistake on my side, I forgot the diaeresis/umlaut. :ashamed2:


3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.

This is interesting. I didn't know about this word, but the possibility is actually that this is a Germanic loanword. There is a Proto-Indo-European word for "cattle" (*gwōus), of which "Ka"/"Kau" might be a cognate. If the word was native Albanian, it would be rendered as something akin to 'ga-'. The development of *g > *k is something found in Germanic. The word might be of Gothic or otherwise East Germanic origin.

Regarding "Arbëresh" and "Albanians", there certainly is the possibility that the two words are related! Isn't there a shift from /n/ > /r/ in the Tosk dialect (and thus Standard Albanian?). If yes, one can speculate if the ancient form might have been something akin to "Arbenes", which might be a cognate with the "Albanoi" found in ancient Greek source. At least, this is a preliminary a hypothesis on my side. :smile:

Endri
15-11-11, 22:51
'ka' and 'qe' are old words, now outdated unfortunately and are also the only words in albanian which i've seen written with an accent in the end, like the italian accent.

'Arbër' and 'Arbëresh' are two different things. 'Arbër' was Albania medieval name and 'Arbëresh' are the albanians who emigrated in the 15 century to the kingdom of Naples, and the inhabitants of albania in middle ages. So the name of the country/region ect was 'Arbër'. I'm kinda surprised you didn't know this since only slavs call use 'Skiptars'. Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.

Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'

-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?
-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?

zanipolo
15-11-11, 23:33
this link might help - ancient indo-european dialects/languages
There is an albanian chapter

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5pCBRsfJMv8C&pg=PA103&dq=Albanians+are+thracians&hl=en&ei=F9nCTvWbLsuziQfVuLDnDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

julia90
17-11-11, 01:54
EDIT : I forgot to mention that people alter words that they accept from another language and use it for something else.
example - The Illyrian word for snake is BRISA, the venetian word is BISA ( in italian its serpente ), yet the venetian used BRISA for their word to slide (as in snake ) , that word is SBRISA, so tribes do require to change new words and create another

Don't forget the name Biscia, "grass snake" and "water snake" in standard italian. Has it the same origin?

zanipolo
17-11-11, 07:56
Don't forget the name Biscia, "grass snake" and "water snake" in standard italian. Has it the same origin?

What I was taught is
Biscia and Vipere are different classes of snakes
Biscia have round pupils, oval head and are not poisonous.
Vipere have slant pupils, trianglular heads and are poisonous

Maybe you mixing sea-snake with an EEL , which in italian is Anguilla and in venetian is Bisato

julia90
17-11-11, 20:29
What I was taught is
Biscia and Vipere are different classes of snakes
Biscia have round pupils, oval head and are not poisonous.
Vipere have slant pupils, trianglular heads and are poisonous

Maybe you mixing sea-snake with an EEL , which in italian is Anguilla and in venetian is Bisato

it's not eel, on word reference i've found the transaltion Biscia= Grass Snake mostly but sometimes water snake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_snake
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_snake)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_snake

a grass snake
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Natrix_natrix_persa3.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_snake)

julia90
17-11-11, 20:32
a water snake
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.diylife.com/media/2008/06/northern-water-snake.jpg

Taranis
17-11-11, 23:29
'ka' and 'qe' are old words, now outdated unfortunately and are also the only words in albanian which i've seen written with an accent in the end, like the italian accent.

'Arbër' and 'Arbëresh' are two different things. 'Arbër' was Albania medieval name and 'Arbëresh' are the albanians who emigrated in the 15 century to the kingdom of Naples, and the inhabitants of albania in middle ages. So the name of the country/region ect was 'Arbër'. I'm kinda surprised you didn't know this since only slavs call use 'Skiptars'.

Well, "Skip-" is approximately what the ancient Albanian form of the word "Shqip-" would have looked like. (Consider that the k > q shift in Albanian is a fairly late innovation, which in my opinion occured after the 500 AD)


Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.

Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'

As I said, I wonder if the root 'Arbër' is related with the word "Albanoi" recorded in Antiquity.


-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?

My best idea is that it could be from PIE 'gel-' (to devour). In that case, it could be a cognate with:

- German 'Kehle' (jowl, throat)
- Latin 'gluttire' (to swallow, compare 'glutton')


-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?

Yes, absolutely. Modern Albanian 'ujk' derives from an earlier "ulk-" (which, interestingly enough, is preserved in the ancient Illyrian town name 'Ulcinum'), which derives from the even earlier PIE word "Ulkwos".

We are left with quite a paradoxial situation here:
- on the one hand, Albanian has a lot of words which it seems to share with Illyrian (or, which at least occur in an Illyrian context)
- on the other hand, there are strong arguments against the relationship with Illyrian, including the fact that it was a Centum language where Albanian is Satem, and that the fact Illyrians had a sophisticated naval culture where (modern) Albanian seems to be lacking in naval terms (instead we find loanwords and circumdescriptions).

The question, of course, is how to solve this discrepancy?

xyz
18-11-11, 12:10
Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can :D
Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.

Taranis
Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!
I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).
So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.
So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons

xyz
18-11-11, 12:14
starling.rinet.ru to this add /new100/alb.pdf
Cannot post links since I am new over here

xyz
18-11-11, 12:30
From my point above.
Borrowed words from Latin (e.g. Latin aurum > ar "gold", gaudium > gaz "gas" etc.) date back before the Christian era, while Illyrians in the today's Albanian territory were the first from the old Balkan populations to be conquered by Romans in 229 - 167 B.C., Thracians were conquered in 45 A.D. and Dacians in 106 A.D
From wikipedia.
So my question is: How can thay be Thracians or Dacians when Albania language has borrowings borrowings before both those tribes were conquered????

Taranis
18-11-11, 13:26
QUOTE=xyz;387180]Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can :D
Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.[/QUOTE]


Taranis
Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!

I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian), meaning that apparent Centum words must be borrowed (the most common Centum language from which is borrowed into Albanian, of course, is Latin). I disagree about the idea that Albanian "falls between", because it is simply not possible for sound laws to be in free variation.

As for Centum/Satem, it is true that the original idea that Centum and Satem were two early ancient branches into which Proto-Indo-European split is incorrect. This was disproven by the existence of Tocharian, which is an extinct Centum language that was once spoken in western China. The more modern idea is that Satemization was an innovation that occured in proximity to the core area of Indo-European, and that those branches in greater distance (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Greek, Tocharian) did not participate in it.

In any case, the question is what in ancient times the linguistic situation on the Western Balkans really did look like. While the situation with the Illyrians is unclear, what is a fact is that some Illyrian names show clearly Centum characteristics.


I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).

Regarding continuity, as can be seen from loanwords, the ancestors of the Albanians must have lived approximately near their present-day location since before Roman times.


So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.

This is correct. However, as I pointed out earlier, if you look at the etymologies of native naval terms found in Albanian, they are circumscriptions of naval terms using a different origin, like "deep" for "sea" or "dish"/"vessel" for "ship". The critical question here is, was this lack of native naval terminology already the case in ancient Albanian? There are two explanations for this: the first is that Albanians are not native to the sea and instead did only migrate there, the other is that ancient Albanian indeed did have native terminology, but that for some reason these terms got replaced. I must admit, I have difficulties to imagine how the latter could have happened.


So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons

Pro and Contra on what issue? That Albanian is derived from Illyrian?

Endri
18-11-11, 22:03
I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian)

So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess :laughing:

Taranis
18-11-11, 22:33
So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess :laughing:


Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".

Endri
19-11-11, 00:12
Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".

You seem to have misunderstood. What i mean is that the words 'them' and 'dhe' in albanian, applying the albanian sound laws, which as you say are *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh', does this means that 'them' albanian is "k'em' and 'dhe' is "g'hem"?

Not english. I put there the english translation so you or who is reading this knew what i was talking about since 'dhe' in albanian is
1)Dirt-noun
2)And-conjuction
3)(you) gave-verb

xyz
19-11-11, 06:54
Taranis:
Can you tell me if this Albanian words are Satem or Centum???

Root (PIE) Meaning Albanian
gerbh- To scratch gervish
gwer To praise grish
gwreugh To bite me gice
kwas To cough kollje
g’her Fence gardh
kwr.mi- grub krimb

Endri
19-11-11, 10:49
Taranis:
Can you tell me if this Albanian words are Satem or Centum???

Root (PIE) Meaning Albanian
gerbh- To scratch gervish
gwer To praise grish
gwreugh To bite me gice
kwas To cough kollje
g’her Fence gardh
kwr.mi- grub krimb

'praise' isn't 'lavdëroj'?
'bite' isn't 'kafshoj'?
'cough' is 'koll' (n) or 'kollitem' (v).
'krimb' is 'worm' in english.
Where did you find this 'grish' and 'gice' word? What dialect are they?

xyz
19-11-11, 12:21
I cannot comment on 'grish' since is true that praise is lavderoj which is a loanword from latin if I'm not mistaken, but I got this word from wikipedia( I assume it must be some kind of dialect, but my point was something else anyway)
'me gice'= to bite is correct allthough the common usage is kafshoj
gica = kica ( I guess they are dialect but I've used it in my family) they are baby teeth, so baby bite should be the correct interpreation.
You right about koll and kollitje (stupid copy paste)

My point is that 'g' is not always shifted to 'dh' and 'k' is not always shifted to 'th' .

Endri
19-11-11, 12:32
We say for babies tooth 'keca(t)'. But i don't think it has anything to do with bite. 'keca' means 'small teeth'. I've never even heard about 'me gice'.

xyz
20-11-11, 03:12
Jo po Cjap
I thojn kica os gica se kecat do te duhet ti pjekim ne hell ne ti hajm masanej.

Endri
20-11-11, 12:31
Jo se gicat jane mire se derrat se kane shume dhjam. Ca m***n thua??? Andej nga anet e tua i thoni kica ose gica ne i themi keca. Ka ndonje problem nqs ne i themi keca?

Devils Advocate
21-11-11, 00:27
Hey guys, in macedonia, we albanians use grish(not used in the city, mostly in the villages)

Devils Advocate
21-11-11, 01:44
Ok, I asked my old father to be sure. Yes albanians in Macedonia use Grish, when for example you invite someone, and usually when you "grish" someone you 'praise' them by giving a gift of some sort.

It is especially used for ceremonies, like weddings and such.

Devils Advocate
21-11-11, 01:49
And as an Albanian born and raised in Norway I've also noticed that my parents can't, even after living here for 45 years, say the Norwegian U. It's like when I ask them to say the Norwgian U they say Y as is said in Norwegian. Same goes for J and Y sometimes. However I don't know if this is of any importance for you linguists ;)

Endri
22-11-11, 23:27
1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?

Yetos
23-11-11, 03:31
1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?


flori does not mean gold
fluria is a coin,

it was the coin of Crusaders at 1200 at D crusade,

the crusaders were payed Flouria,

the latinocracy enetocracy Frangocracy times Coin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Fiorino_1347.jpg

the name is after Florentia Italy.

In Latinocracy time was the most famous coin, among the Crusaders allies
while Byzantines prefer Constantine's coins

http://www.24h-offers.gr/files/4 b.jpg

until 1920 the difference was big,

the expression 'he has flouria', mean, Crusader's ancestor, or ruffian, in Greeks

if you watch carefully the 1rst coin above you might read FLOR after florence Italy.

zanipolo
23-11-11, 07:05
1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?

flori was used only due to the late middle ages as the currency of southern Italian, the Florin. The slang was flori.

Northern Italy used the ducat, sometimes called the zequin and in french sequin.

Yetos
23-11-11, 07:35
flori was used only due to the late middle ages as the currency of southern Italian, the Florin. The slang was flori.

Northern Italy used the ducat, sometimes called the zequin and in french sequin.

Ζengin I think was the Murat E coins, it also means rich in Turkish i think,
zeegin and saraf-is is the alternate turkish word that rums used to say for small banker or rich-man or -exchanger etc,

I think the Turkish coins were aspra zengin and para

Endri
23-11-11, 15:06
flori does not mean gold

I'm sorry but do you know even a bit albanian?? 'flori' means 'gold' in albanian...where it came from is another matter, but you can't say it doesn't mean smth...

Yetos
27-11-11, 07:55
I'm sorry but do you know even a bit albanian?? 'flori' means 'gold' in albanian...where it came from is another matter, but you can't say it doesn't mean smth...

and that is the work of a linguistic,
to write down correct meaning and forms,

cause if I connect flori with main language without knowing its entrance and its origin
then I might fall to falsification,
the Fluri exist in modern Greek also, even in cappadokian Greeks,
it is name of the coin that housekeeper in a speacial lucky pie in New years day,
if you do not know the the origin when we both may enter to wrong path believing that flori is albanian word that reach Capadokia, or the Fluri and flori are from pelasgian ancestry ,
or it is a Greek loan in Albanian language etc

no matter the meaning it has today, the work of a good linguist is to find the original meaning and theme of a word and write it down for future linguists cause that word might be lost in time or cange meaning,
the case that means gold today is because language is a vivid tool that changes and assimilate meanings and sounds,
but we can not take it as an authentic word of albanian language,

flori means gold only to those who accept it as gold

zanipolo
27-11-11, 08:34
Ζengin I think was the Murat E coins, it also means rich in Turkish i think,
zeegin and saraf-is is the alternate turkish word that rums used to say for small banker or rich-man or -exchanger etc,

I think the Turkish coins were aspra zengin and para

Thanks

The Mint in Venice was called the Zecca
The smallest valued coin in Venice at the time was the zecchin, which became Gazzetin later, which was the cost of the 1 page newspaper............the English language borrowed Gazzetin and made it gazette for the news.

Back to Florin....Athens was ruled by a tuscany dynasty in the middleages, maybe thats where you got the word flori.
Also western greece, epirus was another tuscan family the Tocco which also brought in the florin there.

kesi
27-11-11, 13:20
Actually "jap" is clearly not unchanged. The PIE root word is reconstructed with a laryngeal sound.

The reason I brought up specific words at the beginning is to explicitly visualize Albanian sound laws (ie, where there are changes from PIE). To show that, I used cognates from other IE languages. Now, *k and *p are retained unchanged in Albanian. Well, *k is retained under these conditions, it's shifted to /s/ or /c/ (written 'q' in Standard Albanian Orthography) in other contexts. The other reason was to show loanwords, and also what the loanwords can tell us about the relative chronology of Albanian sound laws.

We can be pretty certain that the *k > *c sound shift didn't happen until after the Roman period because Latin loanwords are subject to it (civitas > qytet).

You must not let yourself be fooled by the fact that Albanian (or indeed any other IE language) is conservative in a specific sound law and preserved the original sound. Just because it preserved one or two sounds doesn't mean Albanian preserved the complete "original condition". The example above (and many others I provided) show that this clearly isn't the case and that Albanian possesses a specific set of sound laws.

I did not claim Albanian preserves the complete "original condition" I just said that when it does, or closely so as in the case of -kap-gap- linguist should say so.



The world also means "world" in both Old Irish (bith) and Welsh (byd). By the way, the link must here be between PIE, otherwise you can't explain why it's /i/ in Celtic and /o/ in Albanian.

the funny thing is that Albanian has both -bote (world) and byth (buttocks). Judging only by the word form, we should say the cognate in Alb of Irish "byth"-world - must be the Albanian -byth (buttocks) and not -bote (world), just like the case of the Alb word - tok (earth) similar only in form to slavic -tok (to flow).

btw, there is also the ancient name of "bythinia". Albanian does have some names in funny meanings, such as the name -gomer - in Albanian it means -donkeys- the same with Maygar, in Alb it also means donkeys but in dialect.



I definitely disagree about the last one, because you must not let yourself be confused by Irish or Albanian orthography. The fact that it's "dh" (or /ð/) in Albanian suggests that it comes from an earlier *mag´ or *mag´h. Because of this, I believe the word is related with Latin 'magis' and Greek 'megas', instead (note that I'm unaware of a cognate of that word in a Celtic language).

EDIT: Also, "dh" in Irish, at least at a final position is silent. I'm also confused which language you took those words from, because lament is 'caoin' in Irish, and 'caoidh' in Scottish Gaelic.
the website I saw these words listed all as in Gaulish or Welsh except the word "iomadh" which was listed as Scottish Gaelic. I don't know any of these languages so these could be different or false. There I also saw the word "gju" - knee in Alb.

kesi
27-11-11, 14:39
here is how Albanian language sounds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz1xaiWRhGQ&amp;feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odU0O6Jq2KM

Yetos
28-11-11, 15:36
Thanks

The Mint in Venice was called the Zecca
The smallest valued coin in Venice at the time was the zecchin, which became Gazzetin later, which was the cost of the 1 page newspaper............the English language borrowed Gazzetin and made it gazette for the news.

Back to Florin....Athens was ruled by a tuscany dynasty in the middleages, maybe thats where you got the word flori.
Also western greece, epirus was another tuscan family the Tocco which also brought in the florin there.


coorect, I agree to that,
but not only Athens,
Thessaloniki, Con/polis, even to Ceasareia were settled some and build castles,
traders knew the values and % of gold and change according,

the word fluri from flor (the coin) starts to enter after 4rth crusade and especially in areas were ducats or kingdoms were created, these areas had mainly Flor as gold coin-value,
we find the word even i Cappadokia in Ceasareia of Pontus were we know knights manage to control 3 castles,

Coin flor has marching date about 1205 AD,
while senquin after 1400-1500

now the zecchin you mentioned
were known as sachin-ia in ex-Byzantine areas.

in turkish language Zengin means rich-man, wealthy-man,
I do not know if It is from Venice zecchin coins
or Venice name them in purpose after ottoman's to take advantage of merchants,
or it just a coincidence, or both comes from middle east Sach = king or Sikke = mint
I think sachin are mentioned later, after 1400 around ex-byzantine areas. and mostly mentioned at 1500,
while zengin are mentioned the Murat E coins,
I least gold traders or collector's name them like that here
cold trader, coin dealer small banker's are named in ex Byzantine and ottoman empire are baned
Sachin -is
sharaf -is
zengin -is
malam -as
chrysaf-is
econom-os
Asim-
Γαζ-ης
gazet-is
all meant pawn shop or metal worker or small local banker-trader

language is vivid idea or being, and many times assimilates words giving them different meaning
surnames are given by work or many other, but each other knew the treasure of its other due to the wife hair, remember Byzantines put coins in the hair of their women,

Yetos
28-11-11, 15:54
I did not claim Albanian preserves the complete "original condition" I just said that when it does, or closely so as in the case of -kap-gap- linguist should say so.




the funny thing is that Albanian has both -bote (world) and byth (buttocks). Judging only by the word form, we should say the cognate in Alb of Irish "byth"-world - must be the Albanian -byth (buttocks) and not -bote (world), just like the case of the Alb word - tok (earth) similar only in form to slavic -tok (to flow).

btw, there is also the ancient name of "bythinia". Albanian does have some names in funny meanings, such as the name -gomer - in Albanian it means -donkeys- the same with Maygar, in Alb it also means donkeys but in dialect.


the website I saw these words listed all as in Gaulish or Welsh except the word "iomadh" which was listed as Scottish Gaelic. I don't know any of these languages so these could be different or false. There I also saw the word "gju" - knee in Alb.

gomer hahaha
exist in Greek also as γομαρι gomari and even in Cypriot and far
the meaning is γιωμα = γεματο, (filled up max)
the exact heavy or load for a donkey,
example 3 gomaria means 3 donkeys but also 3 loads,
gomari is also the man that works hard in lifting work, in English is Dockers

gomari is word used by traders that moved around
the word is after Greek word Γομοσις, means I fill up, (bags shag pockets etc)
the max fill up for a donkey to carry is gomari,
while the one who carries or fills is named gomaras.
Gomari is alternate for mule also
caravans until 1900 froom a village to city or in a big road from city to city were mailnly from 3 parts
the traders (gold keepers) the ntaides or davades or tsilias (tsolias) or pechlivans and the gomaria,

merchants, guards merchantise and its carriers
γιωμα or γεμα ορ γομοσις is Greek word meaning the filled up bag or shag or box or what-ever

Endri
30-11-11, 16:53
I would like to know whats the root of this 3 words 'Hyjni/Zot/Perëndi' all meaning 'God/Divinity'

Note: 'zot' was originally called a 'land lord' by his servants but now is used for 'god' and smt the original meaning.

Yetos
30-11-11, 18:17
interesting case

Hyjni the only simmilar word
I can find is the Homeric χοες the later divine bird choenic (phoenix-χοινιξ)
χοες comes from the virb χεω
χοες was a treat to the dead, a sacrifice of incense and many other, the holy plate was named χοανη,
compare the difference in Homeric and Archaic Greek virb χεω and χυνω, after christianity both mean poor a liquid,
but in ancient it was χεω = Ι sacrifice to dead (my half wine pot) and χυνω i poor (spoil my wine)
another connection is the brittish Holy (holy-mother etc)
an IE root is possible

Zot is difficult, since the original meaning is God as Dio the almighty in Albanian as I know, and not Dio the savour
the only possible with Greek is Σωτ-ηρ savour-God a salvation God,
The god that heals and cures in new testament is written as Σωτηρ
the names of God are Creator Savor all-mighty Father etc πανταχου παρων, παντα πληρων, Πατερα, ΠΑντοκρατωρα, Σωτηρα
a possible connection with save ? do not know more

Perendi
well di is the ultimate word for God,
compare
Di-meter Demeter
afro-di-te adroditi
Zeus Di-as
Di+nyx = Dionyssos
etc
so only the word DI means God
search the Peren

Endri
30-11-11, 22:40
interesting case

Hyjni the only simmilar word
I can find is the Homeric χοες the later divine bird choenic (phoenix-χοινιξ)
χοες comes from the virb χεω
χοες was a treat to the dead, a sacrifice of incense and many other, the holy plate was named χοανη,
compare the difference in Homeric and Archaic Greek virb χεω and χυνω, after christianity both mean poor a liquid,
but in ancient it was χεω = Ι sacrifice to dead (my half wine pot) and χυνω i poor (spoil my wine)
another connection is the brittish Holy (holy-mother etc)
an IE root is possible

No offense but i have no idea what you've written in greek letters. If you would be kind enough to put an latin alphabet letters equivalent i would appreciate it.


Zot is difficult, since the original meaning is God as Dio the almighty in Albanian as I know, and not Dio the savour
the only possible with Greek is Σωτ-ηρ savour-God a salvation God,
The god that heals and cures in new testament is written as Σωτηρ
the names of God are Creator Savor all-mighty Father etc πανταχου παρων, παντα πληρων, Πατερα, ΠΑντοκρατωρα, Σωτηρα
a possible connection with save ? do not know more

Again greek letters all messy. And savour you mean savior?


Perendi
well di is the ultimate word for God,
compare
Di-meter Demeter
afro-di-te adroditi
Zeus Di-as
Di+nyx = Dionyssos
etc
so only the word DI means God
search the Peren

1) 'Pe' means 'saw' in albanian and 'ren' is one of the Illyrian words known today and is 're' in modern albanian aka 'cloud' in both illyrian and albanian. So 'Perëndi' might be a conjunction of words and mean smth like 'see the god in/on/among the clouds' or smth like that? Though this is just a crazy theory i came up right now and i think that 'Perëndi' is a simple word.

2) The word for 'dawn' in albanian is 'Perëndim' (n) and 'Perëndoj' (v). Pretty similar as words to 'Perëndi' though don't know if once were the same words or have developed from different words and ended up the same. A linguistic is needed for this kind of things.

Yetos
01-12-11, 07:03
No offense but i have no idea what you've written in greek letters. If you would be kind enough to put an latin alphabet letters equivalent i would appreciate it.



Again greek letters all messy. And savour you mean savior?



1) 'Pe' means 'saw' in albanian and 'ren' is one of the Illyrian words known today and is 're' in modern albanian aka 'cloud' in both illyrian and albanian. So 'Perëndi' might be a conjunction of words and mean smth like 'see the god in/on/among the clouds' or smth like that? Though this is just a crazy theory i came up right now and i think that 'Perëndi' is a simple word.

2) The word for 'dawn' in albanian is 'Perëndim' (n) and 'Perëndoj' (v). Pretty similar as words to 'Perëndi' though don't know if once were the same words or have developed from different words and ended up the same. A linguistic is needed for this kind of things.

sorry but I thought that you knew Greek letters from maths or as a linguist,

ok
1) Hyjni
a) we see british Holy
b) we find in Homer the Choes or Hoes, a religious instrument named choan-e or Hoan-e
we find 2 virbs the Che-o and Chun-o (He-o Hun-o).
now both ch and H must sound as greek χ or as English H (Holy Harm etc)
so
virb noun instrument
He-o Hoes(plural) Hoan-e
Huno(Hino) Husis(Hisis) ------

Hoes were done to Honor Chthonic deities (χθονιος->Hthonic)
while Spondae to Honor upper world deities,

2 Zot
a.) might be connected with Greek Sot-ir Sot-er
Savior God
b.) a possible common IE root or a loan,
compare Germanic Gott and Albanian Zot, maybe a common root of PIE or a loan from one to another, simply satem and Centum, Zot is satem and Gott is Centum



3 Perendi

a.) might be God in the Sky (ren)

b.) might be from Perun
Slavic Deity Perun, Germanic Thor, Baltic Perkunas Greek titan Hyperion

I find more possible that the Peren is like the above another name of the same deity in Albanian from PIE deities,
an old Deity that survived cause in christian times took the -di and become Perendi (the supreme deity)
I do not know if it works in Albanian as alternate word for Allah

Endri
01-12-11, 15:08
sorry but I thought that you knew Greek letters from maths or as a linguist,

I've stated that i'm no linguistic or have any academical knowledge on that field + the only greek letter i can distinguish from physic is theta, that O with a line in the middle...all the others used in physic i don't remember them...


3 Perendi

a.) might be God in the Sky (ren)

b.) might be from Perun
Slavic Deity Perun, Germanic Thor, Baltic Perkunas Greek titan Hyperion

I find more possible that the Peren is like the above another name of the same deity in Albanian from PIE deities,
an old Deity that survived cause in christian times took the -di and become Perendi (the supreme deity)
I do not know if it works in Albanian as alternate word for Allah

a.) Not possible cause Illyrian faith was pagan. They believed in the nature and gods didn't have an face. The gods were a tree, a river things like that. Then they became politeist (greek and then roman goods). So maybe the 'Clouds' were seen as gods...who knows

b.)No idea but i doubt it since Illyrians were pagan.

And no, albanian has no other words for 'Allah'. 'Allah' is 'Allah' and most of the people think that 'Allah' is the name of the prophet like 'Jesus'.

Also this 'di' as supreme god is interesting.

In albanian just 'di' means 'know' and 'dije' is 'knowledge'. Also the word for 'sun' is 'diell' and for 'day' is 'ditë'. All having the 'di' in them.

Elias2
01-12-11, 16:05
I've stated that i'm no linguistic or have any academical knowledge on that field + the only greek letter i can distinguish from physic is theta, that O with a line in the middle...all the others used in physic i don't remember them...



a.) Not possible cause Illyrian faith was pagan. They believed in the nature and gods didn't have an face. The gods were a tree, a river things like that. Then they became politeist (greek and then roman goods). So maybe the 'Clouds' were seen as gods...who knows

b.)No idea but i doubt it since Illyrians were pagan.

And no, albanian has no other words for 'Allah'. 'Allah' is 'Allah' and most of the people think that 'Allah' is the name of the prophet like 'Jesus'.

Also this 'di' as supreme god is interesting.

In albanian just 'di' means 'know' and 'dije' is 'knowledge'. Also the word for 'sun' is 'diell' and for 'day' is 'ditë'. All having the 'di' in them.

What's with all these references to Illyria, did you not read Teranis posts? or do you read selectively?

"1) The Illyrian Hypothesis
The Illyrians were an Indo-European people who lived in the northwestern part of the Balkan peninsula, including the northern areas of modern-day Albania. Very little is known about the Illyrian language itself (exclusively onomastic), but it has been suggested as the ancestor of the Albanian language. Wether Illyrian is suitable as an ancestor stands and falls mainly with the question if Illyrian was a Centum language or a Satem language (Albanian being part of the latter). What is an additional problem with Illyrian is the fact that the Albanian language has been noted for it's scarcity of native naval and maritime terms (instead we find borrowings, such as 'tokë' (shore), which is derived from Slavic 'tok' (to flow)). As a result, the Proto-Albanians are generally assumed to have dwelled somewhere in inland, away from the sea. In contrast, the Illyrians are well-known to have possessed a highly sophisticated naval culture and were feared by both the Greeks and the Romans as pirates in the Adriatic sea. As such, the Illyrians lend themselves poorly as the ancestors to the Albanians."

I understand the want to know where albanians came from, but please leave your nationalism at the door.

Yetos
01-12-11, 16:57
I've stated that i'm no linguistic or have any academical knowledge on that field + the only greek letter i can distinguish from physic is theta, that O with a line in the middle...all the others used in physic i don't remember them...



a.) Not possible cause Illyrian faith was pagan. They believed in the nature and gods didn't have an face. The gods were a tree, a river things like that. Then they became politeist (greek and then roman goods). So maybe the 'Clouds' were seen as gods...who knows

b.)No idea but i doubt it since Illyrians were pagan.

And no, albanian has no other words for 'Allah'. 'Allah' is 'Allah' and most of the people think that 'Allah' is the name of the prophet like 'Jesus'.

Also this 'di' as supreme god is interesting.

In albanian just 'di' means 'know' and 'dije' is 'knowledge'. Also the word for 'sun' is 'diell' and for 'day' is 'ditë'. All having the 'di' in them.

sory allah is the arabian semitic name of God, if god was Jew will be El like el El elion,
if god was Slavic will be Perun, if Greek will be Theos Dias,

if I translate Quran to another language I must use the other language words,
So it is another Mohamet and Jesus, and another Allah and Dio and Theos and GoD

Allah is God is Dio is Theos is BOG is whatever a nation wants to call him,
except if translation of quran to another language is prohibited

Endri
01-12-11, 17:02
1) Just so that we are clear 'tokë' means 'land'. 'shore' is 'bregdet' or just 'breg' See post for 'breg' (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27011-The-Albanian-language&p=386393&viewfull=1#post386393) and 'det' (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27011-The-Albanian-language&p=386779&viewfull=1#post386779). So i can't imagine how 'tokë' meaning 'land' or 'earth' could be borrowed from slavic 'tok' meaning 'to flow'. How can 'land' and 'earth' be connected to the complete opposite 'to flow'. Also what about the albanian word 'tok'? Meaning 'together'. Whats her root? Slavic 'tok' again since 'to flow' and 'together' are pretty similar words (sarcasm here).
2) PLS tell me where i said that Illyrian are Albanians?

Thanks and leave your ignorance home.

Endri
01-12-11, 17:05
sory allah is the arabian semitic name of God, if god was Jew will be El like el El elion,
if god was Slavic will be Perun, if Greek will be Theos Dias,

if I translate Quran to another language I must use the other language words,
So it is another Mohamet and Jesus, and another Allah and Dio and Theos and GoD

Allah is God is Dio is Theos is BOG is whatever a nation wants to call him,
except if translation of quran to another language is prohibited

Nope Allah is said Allah since most people don't know that 'Allah' in Arabic (i think) means 'God'. But if you were to call 'Allah' as 'God' you'd probably use those 3 words 'Hyjni/Zot/Perëndi'

Hal Fao
01-12-11, 17:13
Albanian word Zot (God) or Zoti (the God) cognates with Albanian Sot (today), Soti ("the day on", "the today").
The Greek name Sotir (Soter) comes from Albanian and means "modern", "of today".
Perendi is a compound word. Peri (or perri) in Albanian mithology embodies a very beautiful girl. Its regular form is Peri-di (God of beautiness). It cognates with English pretty.

Yetos
01-12-11, 18:27
Nope Allah is said Allah since most people don't know that 'Allah' in Arabic (i think) means 'God'. But if you were to call 'Allah' as 'God' you'd probably use those 3 words 'Hyjni/Zot/Perëndi'


I agree, Allah means God in Arabic, and is not a name, while Mohamet is a name and can not to be translated,

Yetos
01-12-11, 18:40
Albanian word Zot (God) or Zoti (the God) cognates with Albanian Sot (today), Soti ("the day on", "the today").
The Greek name Sotir (Soter) comes from Albanian and means "modern", "of today".
Perendi is a compound word. Peri (or perri) in Albanian mithology embodies a very beautiful girl. Its regular form is Peri-di (God of beautiness). It cognates with English pretty.




:confused2: :petrified:

Σωτηρ (soter) means savior and not modern, :useless:

a connection with Zot might be as Savior God,

another connection is the Germanic Gott that in satem might be Zot,

Ι wonder in what Lexicon you find that @The Greek name Sotir (Soter) comes from Albanian and means "modern", "of today"[email protected]

σωτηρ = shpetimit shpetuar
Σωτηρ = Shpetimit God (savior God)

or Zot and Gott might be same word but took different aspirations

also that
@Its regular form is Peri-di (God of beautiness). It cognates with English [email protected]
or maybe supreme god is a pretty girl?

instead it sounds more logic that Peren is alternate of Perun, Perkunas and Hyperion,
since I have the root Per in 4 IE languages meaning the same, why to connect it with pretty? :thinking:

except if you mention the Pierides mouses Πιεριδες μουσες
the ones that Pausanias and Nikandros mention the Pierian Nymphs

Hal Fao
01-12-11, 19:47
@ Yetos. You're right, Sotir (Soter) means Savior (savior God). The connection of "Zoti" and "Soti" is based in similar connection like "Dio" or "Dei" and "Day" etc. As for "Perendi" and "Pretty" (which are cognates), it's the thought of e German linguist (I do not remember his name now, but there is a video posted in the thread "Etruscan, Illyrian, Pellasgy ..." where it can be found too).

Taranis
02-12-11, 15:38
Regarding "Zot(i)", if it's a native Albanian word, it would go back to an earlier *gw- or *gwh-, which makes it pretty much impossible to be a cognate with Greek "Soter".

Also, I don't see how "pretty" be a cognate of "Perendi". 'Pretty', and it's cognates in other Germanic languages, must come from an earlier *brad (or perhaps *brod). In turn, a cognate of *per- would be *fer- in Germanic (Grimm's Law).

Endri
02-12-11, 17:01
Regarding "Zot(i)", if it's a native Albanian word, it would go back to an earlier *gw- or *gwh-, which makes it pretty much impossible to be a cognate with Greek "Soter".

Also, I don't see how "pretty" be a cognate of "Perendi". 'Pretty', and it's cognates in other Germanic languages, must come from an earlier *brad (or perhaps *brod). In turn, a cognate of *per- would be *fer- in Germanic (Grimm's Law).

'Pretty' he says might be cognate to 'Perri' or 'Peri'. This is an old word that i've heard like 2-3 times in total and have no idea what the correct form is. With 'r' or 'rr'.

Also Taranis this words: 'ditë', 'di' or 'dije' and 'diell' what's their root? Are they loan words?

Yetos
02-12-11, 17:17
Regarding "Zot(i)", if it's a native Albanian word, it would go back to an earlier *gw- or *gwh-, which makes it pretty much impossible to be a cognate with Greek "Soter".

Also, I don't see how "pretty" be a cognate of "Perendi". 'Pretty', and it's cognates in other Germanic languages, must come from an earlier *brad (or perhaps *brod). In turn, a cognate of *per- would be *fer- in Germanic (Grimm's Law).


so Zot cognates with Germanic Gott ??

and peren cognates with Fairies ? and not with Perun perwunas and Hyperion?

Taranis
05-12-11, 11:30
Also Taranis this words: 'ditë', 'di' or 'dije' and 'diell' what's their root? Are they loan words?

sorry, I didn't get to this earlier.

djell ("sun") and ditë ("day") are derived from PIE *dei- (to shine, glitter, day).

With "di" ("to know, to consider"), and "dije" ("knowledge"), I'm uncertain. They might have the same root.

Endri
05-12-11, 14:55
sorry, I didn't get to this earlier.

djell ("sun") and ditë ("day") are derived from PIE *dei- (to shine, glitter, day).

With "di" ("to know, to consider"), and "dije" ("knowledge"), I'm uncertain. They might have the same root.

I've always thought that 'dije' is 'di' with an suffix.

Anyway what about the word 'Sot' aka 'Today'?

Also the word 'diell' might be connected with the word 'djalë' aka 'boy/son'? Like the english 'sun' and 'son' and German (not sure in german since i know it very little) 'sonne' and 'sohn' ??

Ps: 'sun' is 'diell' with /I/ not /J/ :P

Endri
08-12-11, 00:47
I've always thought that 'dije' is 'di' with an suffix.

Anyway what about the word 'Sot' aka 'Today'?

Also the word 'diell' might be connected with the word 'djalë' aka 'boy/son'? Like the english 'sun' and 'son' and German (not sure in german since i know it very little) 'sonne' and 'sohn' ??

Ps: 'sun' is 'diell' with /I/ not /J/ :P

Any idea anyone about these??

FBS
15-12-11, 12:16
Hyll - is old albanian for Yll - Star
Hyj - is plural for old albanian Hyll
Hyjni - are those who are risen to the stars, those who have earned their stars

Zot - masculine
Zoj(ë) - femininine
Both nowdays have the meaning of the masters (of the house, of ther art, for e.g.) but at the same time Zot is Master of the universe, but not necesseraly the only one.

Continuing with Zot:
Zog - is bird
Zo(g)jt - is plural
So, the link with the bird can be found in this word. Thot was depicted with the bird head, the one who brought the knowledge (DI - DIJE in Albanian) and writting. In Albanian the "DI" (to know) appears in all the words that have to do with the enlightment, knowledge and light.

Perëndi - is a feminine form of divinety, and it could very well mean the beauty (e Bukura e Dheut for e.g.). Since the Sun sets and the beauty sets (dies) we can have a link of why we (Albanians) use the 'perëndimi i Diellit' (Perenimi i Dillit, in Geg). Perëndi is also used in plural as Perënditë, which gives an impression that they could be several of them and they are not fully immortal because they 'set'.

Hope I have contributed a bit.

julia90
16-12-11, 19:02
Albanian language's sound is strange, what i find strange is that they don't pronunce r, like vibrant r, they pronounce it like in english.. infact some months ago i was in the autobus, which is full with albanians, i've never took notice of their language sound, so at first i thought, they must be american or something who talks strange or in dialect, than when i saw them i understood it was albanian.

the language is fashinating.. also i want to know if messapian has similarities with albanian

es of messapian:
klauhi ZisDekias ArtahiasThautouri andirahhodaus apistathi vinaihi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language

Endri
21-12-11, 16:50
Albanian language's sound is strange, what i find strange is that they don't pronunce r, like vibrant r, they pronounce it like in english.. infact some months ago i was in the autobus, which is full with albanians, i've never took notice of their language sound, so at first i thought, they must be american or something who talks strange or in dialect, than when i saw them i understood it was albanian.

What? o.O

We pronounce /r/ the same as italians, americans, british ect. I've never noticed any diff between the albanian /r/ and the italian /r/ in pronunciation. Maybe what you think is the letter/sound /r/ was the albanian /rr/.


the language is fashinating.. also i want to know if messapian has similarities with albanian

es of messapian:
klauhi ZisDekias ArtahiasThautouri andirahhodaus apistathi vinaihi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language

Actually, to me that looks like greek -.-

LeBrok
21-12-11, 18:26
You must be kidding me, Italian R is very different than English.

Endri
21-12-11, 19:37
You must be kidding me, Italian R is very different than English.

Nope. Idk how you pronounce them but their the same to me and same as the albanian /r/.

A video or audio comparison would help in this case more than words.

Hal Fao
21-12-11, 19:46
Hyll - is old albanian for Yll - Star
Hyj - is plural for old albanian Hyll
Hyjni - are those who are risen to the stars, those who have earned their stars

Zot - masculine
Zoj(ë) - femininine
Both nowdays have the meaning of the masters (of the house, of ther art, for e.g.) but at the same time Zot is Master of the universe, but not necesseraly the only one.

Continuing with Zot:
Zog - is bird
Zo(g)jt - is plural
So, the link with the bird can be found in this word. Thot was depicted with the bird head, the one who brought the knowledge (DI - DIJE in Albanian) and writting. In Albanian the "DI" (to know) appears in all the words that have to do with the enlightment, knowledge and light.

Perëndi - is a feminine form of divinety, and it could very well mean the beauty (e Bukura e Dheut for e.g.). Since the Sun sets and the beauty sets (dies) we can have a link of why we (Albanians) use the 'perëndimi i Diellit' (Perenimi i Dillit, in Geg). Perëndi is also used in plural as Perënditë, which gives an impression that they could be several of them and they are not fully immortal because they 'set'.

Hope I have contributed a bit.
Yes you did, even too much. I'd like to ask you FBS, do you think "shqiptar" /skhiptar/ (albanian) cognates with "scepter"?

julia90
21-12-11, 22:48
You must be kidding me, Italian R is very different than English.

indeed italian r is classified as dental/alveolar trill

while looking on wikipedia i've discovered albanian has two r sound one
like italian r alveoral trill
the other alveoral flap

the last one is more similar to english r that is still different (in english r is alveoral approximant)

Endri
21-12-11, 23:42
indeed italian r is classified as dental/alveolar trill

while looking on wikipedia i've discovered albanian has two r sound one
like italian r alveoral trill
the other alveoral flap

the last one is more similar to english r that is still different (in english r is alveoral approximant)

As i said, you could have confused /r/ with /rr/ cause albanian /r/ is the same as the italian one. I for a moment thought that i've been pronouncing italian /r/ wrong all this years which would have been odd and weird since I leant how to speak italian by watching italian TVs and hearing italian spoken by italians -_-

julia90
22-12-11, 13:46
As i said, you could have confused /r/ with /rr/ cause albanian /r/ is the same as the italian one. I for a moment thought that i've been pronouncing italian /r/ wrong all this years which would have been odd and weird since I leant how to speak italian by watching italian TVs and hearing italian spoken by italians -_-

you are right, if you can differentiate betwen italian dialects and regional speeches, you see that all of them have the trill r, with the exception of some speeches in piedmont and parma, which have r similar with the french r.
In sicily, they usually double the r sound geminating it, rr

Malsori
22-12-11, 14:14
Not all Albanians pronounce the r like English people.Those are usually Albanians from Albania,and some others.While the other part pronounce normally.

Endri
22-12-11, 15:00
Not all Albanians pronounce the r like English people.Those are usually Albanians from Albania,and some others.While the other part pronounce normally.

Yes cause if you pronounce /r/ like english you sound like gay or effeminate at least...

Anyway i would like to know the etymology of the word 'arratisje' (n)/ 'arratisem' (v), 'escape' in english. Is it a loan word or PIE word? Or is a composed word?

At first look, my opinion is that is a composed word. The root being the word 'ara' (basically meaning 'field' in archaic albanian or smth like 'crop field'in modern one) ('arat' plural) and meaning "iki/vrapoj arave", "run through the fields" english. I mean seeing how we (albania) were a agricultural country and undeveloped (in Industry) until the end of WW II saying for smo who escapes that he runned through the fields seems pretty logic?


Also i would like to know the roots of the words 'Verë(a)'-'Summer' and 'Vjeshtë(a)'-'Autumn'. I know 'Dimër'-'Winter' is of PIE root since i think i saw it smo on Taranis posts, and 'Pranvera'-'Spring' literally meaning 'Near summer' so the only ones remaining are this two + is there andy connection between the word 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vera' (wine)? Or just coincidences?

FBS
22-12-11, 18:18
I'd like to ask you FBS, do you think "shqiptar" /skhiptar/ (albanian) cognates with "scepter"?[/QUOTE]

This is a tricky one, and we always need to be carefull when we are trying to decode and find the cognates behind the words. I am not sure if it cognates with scepter, I think it is the other way round. Scepter cognates with Skipe and Skifter (we find it as shaft in Old english).

Why do I think so:
Etruscans used the scepters, from them the Romans continued the tradition. The Romans had an golden eagle on the scepter, and eagle in old albanian is Skipe and/or Skifter. So I do not think that this word came to us through Latin or Greek, it was actualy passed on from our old language to these languages.

If we dig deeper into the word scepter we will find other meanings behind it and one of them is "overlooking", which an eagle (Shqiponja & Skifteri) does from the sky.

On the other hand skiptim (shqiptim) means to pronounce/announce in Albanian, it has nothing to do with the sceptre. So 'shqipëtarët' are "those who speak" most probably ment "the real/our language", which again goes deeper in the history.

These were shortly two reasonings from my side that explain that Shqiptar does not cognate with scepter, in my opinion.

julia90
22-12-11, 18:59
Also i would like to know the roots of the words 'Verë(a)'-'Summer' and 'Vjeshtë(a)'-'Autumn'. I know 'Dimër'-'Winter' is of PIE root since i think i saw it smo on Taranis posts, and 'Pranvera'-'Spring' literally meaning 'Near summer' so the only ones remaining are this two + is there andy connection between the word 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vera' (wine)? Or just coincidences?


In italian we have Primavera (Spring).., in latin VER , (IS) means spring,

the italian word Inverno (winter), could be derived from VER,(IS), since classical latin word for winter is BRUMA, (AE) or HIEMS, (IS)

FBS
23-12-11, 11:00
I forgot to add one more thing regarding the scepter.

In Albanian the proper names for scepter are "shkop" and "sqepar". Look at the model of the egyptian scepter, it has a beak - "sqep". So again I find a better explanation for the name scepter in Albanin then in other languages because it describes the form of the scpeter which is beak-like thing held by the Egyptian rulers.

Yetos
23-12-11, 16:19
the word Schiptar
I believe it has to do more with the Greek words Ξεφτερι Γυπας Γυπαετος (Xephteri Whipas Whipaetos)

the photos of the birds and their names,

1
Gypas Fulvus γυπας (whupas-whipas)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Gänsegeier_Bern.JPG/240px-Gänsegeier_Bern.JPG


2
Gypaetus barbatus (γυπαετος whupaetos whipaetos)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Bartgeier_Gypaetus_barbatus_front_Richard_Bartz.jp g/410px-Bartgeier_Gypaetus_barbatus_front_Richard_Bartz.jp g



3
also Accipiter nissus Greek Xephteri (ξεφτερι) *
considering the Aeolian X was sk then Xephteri will be Ksephteri Aeolian Skephteri

http://greekbiodiversity-habitats.web.auth.gr/sites/default/files/habitat/images/102.jpg

4
the Falco Subbuteo Greek stravogerako (στραβογερακο - δενδρογερακο)

http://www.mangoverde.com/wbg/images/00000012973.jpg



the connection among Gyp Xepht and Shqip I thing it is obvious
it possible that Shq is a satem form of Centum G or X But I like taranis Help here.

Hal Fao
24-12-11, 00:44
I forgot to add one more thing regarding the scepter.

In Albanian the proper names for scepter are "shkop" and "sqepar". Look at the model of the egyptian scepter, it has a beak - "sqep". So again I find a better explanation for the name scepter in Albanin then in other languages because it describes the form of the scpeter which is beak-like thing held by the Egyptian rulers.
In Albanian there is "stap" (staff) and "shkop" (scepter); Albanian "shkop" is a compound word: "sh-" (negative prefix) and "kop" (really "kep" or "qep" /khep/ = KEEP together, stich). The same for "sqep" (beak): "s-" is a negative prefix.
The Albanian (or Aeolian) word "scephter" (falco) or Albanian "shqipe" (eagle) relate to "sqep" /skhep/ (beak).
In many ancient Egyptian pictures there are both the scepter and the falco (and the snake). In the center of the Balkans there was a city called "Stab" (on BC times, but unfortunately I do not remember the source where I've found it) which in nowadays is called "Shkup" or "Scopje" (compare with Albanian "stap" and "shkop"). The ROD is the first tool made and used by the man and the scepter has been a symbol of power.
That's why I asked you FBS if "scepter" cognates with "shqiptar" /skhiptar/ (albanian).

Endri
24-12-11, 01:48
According to Gustav Meyer and supported by Robert Elsie


Shqiptar derived from the Albanian verbs shqipoj (to speak clearly) and shqiptoj (to speak out, pronounce), which are in turn derived from theLatin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) verb excipere, denoting brethren who speak the Albanian language, similar to the ethno-linguistic dichotomies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy) Sloven-Nemac and Deutsch-Wälsch

According to Maximilian Lambertz:


Shqiptar derived the word from the Albanian noun shqipe,or shqiponjë (eagle), which, according to Albanian folk etymology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology), denoted a bird totem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem)dating from the times of Skanderbeg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg), as displayed on the Albanian flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_flag)

Which I personally think is the closest one to the truth...

According to Peter Skok:


Suggests that the name originated from Scupi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scupi) (Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language): Shkupi), the capital of the Scipio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scipio) Roman province of Dardania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani#Roman_Dardania) (today's Skopje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje))

I don't see what this scepter (btw this /ce/ is read as /çe/ or /ke/ ??) has to do? If you're tryin' to find the etymology of the words like 'Shqipe/Shqiponj' or 'Skifter' I can understand but Shqiptar? I mean if this is true than the meaning evolution is from scepter>shqipe (or smth else)>shqipëtar. Are you tryin' to prove so? Then be more clear cause if you're confusing me I can't imagine about another person who knows nothing about our language.

Also about 'sqepar', this word is a common word between Romanian and our language.

Yetos
24-12-11, 02:22
Not only in Albanian and romanian,

σκεπαρνι etc

far ancient Homeric we find the word ξεω (virb) xeo, means I use the axe to scratch
the scratch tool in Greek is αξις - αξινος (possesive) and Σκαπανη (Skapani-Skapane)
compare Virb Σκαπτω (I use axe to dig, I dig with hammer)
comparing Homeric Ξιφει (Xifei Xifi Skifei ) the sharp nose and later Ακις we see that axe cognates with f
f p and V are same family shifts
so Xifei goes Aeolian Skifei -> Skipei ->Skapani

so the word Sqepar Albanian Romanian cognates also with Greek Σκαπανη and Σκεπαρι (Skapani Skepari)
Skeparion = Hammer Skapani = Hoe

I thing all extract after same root the axe (aske ->ske->sqe)

consider that in Pontic greek hammer is Σκηπαρvi (Skiparni)

in Fact I believe that Scepter and Sqepar have same root

although since I am not albanian I do not know if Sqepar cognates with Shqiptar

Endri
24-12-11, 14:08
Actually the root of the word 'sqepar' or 'sqep' would be 'qep'. /s/ is an negative prefix. 'qep' it self in albanian means 'stich' , 'onion' (which I think was a second meaning to stich cause onion makes you cry thus somehow making you open your eyes, move your eyes or smth like that. Note that the word for 'eyelid' in albanian is 'qep-allë'. Maybe coming for 'qep' (stich) since eyelids "stich" your eyes...idk it might sound a bit crazy (!) )and 'qep(e)' 'shut up'...

So if 'sqepar' is from 'qep' + the negative prefix /s/ it means 'un-stich' cause a 'sqepar' in modern day (and i know this since my grandfather is a carpenter and i know the tools) is used besides as a hammer to remove nails from wood pieces too...somehow to 'unstich' ?

And 'sqep' 'beak' might have been used for the 'beak' since (i might be very wrong here since i'm not a biologist) some birds have their beaks like some small teeths like this form /\/\/\/\/\/\ like a stich and when the bird opens his mouth/beak he unstiches them aka 's-qep'.

Idk this my crazy theory...

Taranis
24-12-11, 14:17
I am uncertain regarding the origin of the word "sqiptar", but I would like to remind you that the development of k to q in Albanian is a relatively late development that occured after ca. 500 AD, due to the fact that Latin loanwords are affected by it (civitas > qytet).

Hal Fao
24-12-11, 17:09
Yes Taranis, You're right related to Albanian "q" (although in Gheg Albanian, as a general rule there is no "q"). My idea consists mainly in the role of the Albanian negative prefix "s" or "sh" (note that this negative prefix does still exist in Latin languages too, but in Albanian it is widely used. In Etruscan it has been used more widely than in nowadays Albanian).
Compare for eg. Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) and German “sprechen” (speak); Albanian "shpik" (invent) and English "speak", as well as Italian "spieg/are" (express) and German "spieg/el" (mirror) where the role of prefix "s" (or "sh") is quite clear.

Taranis
24-12-11, 18:01
Yes Taranis, You're right related to Albanian "q" (although in Gheg Albanian, as a general rule there is no "q"). My idea consists mainly in the role of the Albanian negative prefix "s" or "sh" (note that this negative prefix does still exist in Latin languages too, but in Albanian it is widely used. In Etruscan it has been used more widely than in nowadays Albanian).
Compare for eg. Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) and German “sprechen” (speak); Albanian "shpik" (invent) and English "speak", as well as Italian "spieg/are" (express) and German "spieg/el" (mirror) where the role of prefix "s" (or "sh") is quite clear.

Sorry no. It seems, I'm afraid, that despite all the stuff I have posted here, you still cling to your old ideas, especially the (thoroughly debunked) idea that Etruscan was somehow related with Albanian. I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.

German "Spiegel" comes from PIE *spek´- (to look), and is a cognate with Latin auspex, spectare, aspicere

There are many Indo-European root words which begin with *sp-, but the *s in there has nothing to do with a negation.

Endri
24-12-11, 18:33
Sorry no. It seems, I'm afraid, that despite all the stuff I have posted here, you still cling to your old ideas, especially the (thoroughly debunked) idea that Etruscan was somehow related with Albanian. I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.

German "Spiegel" comes from PIE *spek´- (to look), and is a cognate with Latin auspex, spectare, aspicere

There are many Indo-European root words which begin with *sp-, but the *s in there has nothing to do with a negation.

So Taranis, 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Also since you're here 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vjeshta' (autumn) are from PIE root or loan words?

zanipolo
24-12-11, 20:16
Yes Taranis, You're right related to Albanian "q" (although in Gheg Albanian, as a general rule there is no "q"). My idea consists mainly in the role of the Albanian negative prefix "s" or "sh" (note that this negative prefix does still exist in Latin languages too, but in Albanian it is widely used. In Etruscan it has been used more widely than in nowadays Albanian).
Compare for eg. Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) and German “sprechen” (speak); Albanian "shpik" (invent) and English "speak", as well as Italian "spieg/are" (express) and German "spieg/el" (mirror) where the role of prefix "s" (or "sh") is quite clear.

In Italian, spiegare is to explain -.......... spiegazione is explanation

express is espresso

Hal Fao
27-12-11, 01:34
I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.
Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?
What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

zanipolo
27-12-11, 03:24
Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?
What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

Because the bavarians in augsburg gave the word to venetians who called it Spiegar who then was taken by Dante into the Italian language adding a vowel in the 13th century.

Are you trying to say germans and albanians are one?

maybe its due to loan words , then again "germanic" migratorory people passed by the area in the past

Taranis
27-12-11, 11:04
Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?

Yes, I think that Albanian "spreh" is a Germanic loanword. It's unlikely to be from German however.


What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

Albanian is actually unique by rather the opposite: that it has so few "native" (PIE) words and a large number of borrowed words in it's vocabulary. What also make Albanian rather unique is that it is today isolated inside the Indo-European languages, with no close living relatives.


Anyways, I would like to lay focus on one very peculiar aspect, namely the words for family relatives. These are highly constant and indeed have cognates in almost all Indo-European languages.

*pHter (father)
*meHter (mother)
*bhreHter (brother)
*swesor (sister)
*dhugHter (daughter)
*suHnu- (son)
*nepot- (nephew)

Anyways, in most Indo-European languages, it is the exception rather than the rule that these fundamental terms are being replaced, and it typically only regards individual words. However, Albanian however is outstanding here. Of the words in the list, there are only two cognates in Albanian: "motër" (which means "sister" rather than "mother"), and "nip" (nephew/grandson).

Hal Fao
27-12-11, 14:16
Yes, I think that Albanian "spreh" is a Germanic loanword. It's unlikely to be from German however.
Well, here is the way that Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) is wordformmed:
Preh /preh/ repose; rest; stand peacefully (because of being in contact with a beloved place); Shpreh (express).
Prehër /prehər/ 1-lap; 2-a beloved place to stand on.
Prehem /prehem/ stand peacefully (oneself); shprehem (express oneself).
Prek /prek/ 1- touch (v); 2- choke up; 3- hurt (v).
S’prek /s’prek/ 1- do not touch; 2- do not hurt.
Piek (pjek) /pjek/ 1- contact (v); 2- meet (v); 3- bake.
S’piek (s’pjek) 1- do not contact; 2- do not meet; 3- do not bake.
Pik (pikë) /pik/ point (n);
Note that Albanian “preh” is related with “prek” (touch).
In the same way, Albanian “piek” (pjek) = “meet” and “spiek” = “do not meet” (in Albanian orthography there is used the apostrophe (s’piek) but I’m using the form “spiek”, so that the reader can easily understand that Albanian “spiek” is closely related with Italian “spieg/are” = “explain”and German “spieg/el” = “mirror”
(the same for English “speak” and Albanian “shpik” = “invent”).
Although their semantics are different, they are wordformed in the same way and contain the same wordformming elements: 1- the negative prefix “s-“ (or “sh-”) and, 2- “piek” (or “pieg”) = “meet”, “contact”.

Taranis
27-12-11, 14:22
Although their semantics are different, they are wordformed in the same way and contain the same wordformming elements: 1- the negative prefix “s-“ (or “sh-”) and, 2- “piek” (or “pieg”) = “meet”, “contact”.

Sorry no, full stop. Every linguist can tell you that is complete nonsense. This negation that you belief to exist is non-existent. Despite everything that I and other people have written here, and elsewhere on this forum, are also completely ignoring the concept of sound correspondence.

You ignore in Germanic, there is a shift (Grimm's Law), but both Albanian and Latin are unaffected by this. Hence English "speak" and Albanian "shpik" are unrelated. In Germanic, PIE *k is shifted to *h, hence the cognate is English "spy" (where it is less obvious) and German "spähen" (where it is more obvious).

Why do you keep assuming that Albanian is somehow an ancient language that purportedly can tell us about the origins of various Indo-European words, whereas it is clear that is absolutely isn't, and that it is a modern language that acquired a huge amount of loanwords from other languages during the course of history.

Endri
27-12-11, 17:24
So Taranis, 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Also since you're here 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vjeshta' (autumn) are from PIE root or loan words?

Taranis can i get some sort of reply for this? I'm really curious about the origin of 'Vera' and Vjeshta'

@Hal Fao

Stop with this /s/ and /sh/ negation. They in some words show negation but very few. Not every word that starts with /s/ and /sh/ shows negations.

Nga i gjeni këto teori njëherë, njera më e çmendur se tjetra...po bollë o burr se le nam...

Taranis
27-12-11, 17:47
Taranis can i get some sort of reply for this? I'm really curious about the origin of 'Vera' and Vjeshta'

Note that this is preliminary, but:

For the first word, my best guess would be a relationship with the Latin word for "green" ("viridis", compare with Spanish/Italian/Romanian "verde", French "verte").

For the second, I would suggest a relationship with Germanic "west" (it becomes more clear if you assume that "vjeshta" derives from an earlier *vjesta). The connection here would be that west is the direction where the sun sets, and autumn is the season where the leaves fall.

Hal Fao
27-12-11, 21:57
You ignore in Germanic, there is a shift (Grimm's Law), but both Albanian and Latin are unaffected by this. Hence English "speak" and Albanian "shpik" are unrelated. In Germanic, PIE *k is shifted to *h, hence the cognate is English "spy" (where it is less obvious) and German "spähen" (where it is more obvious).
You may be right relating to English "speak" and Albanian "shpik". But I wonder, why you passed in silence the German sprechen (speak) and Albanian shprehem (express)?


Why do you keep assuming that Albanian is somehow an ancient language that purportedly can tell us about the origins of various Indo-European words, whereas it is clear that is absolutely isn't, and that it is a modern language that acquired a huge amount of loanwords from other languages during the course of history.
When Endri asked you for the etymology of albanian word "vjeshta", you gave your opinion that it must be "west". You're quite right in the sense that you think in your own language or in languages you know very well. As a matter of fact, the old form of "vjeshta" has been "vjelshta" (the autumn) and it comes from Albanian "vjel" (harvest). There are numerous Albanian words whose etymologies are not correct. So, if I ask you for the etymology of the Albanian word "pellg" (pool, pond, lake, sea) your answer may be for the Greek πέλαγος” (sea), but both Albanian "pellg" and Greek πέλαγος are wordformmed by pe and lag (πέ-λαγος). In dialectal Albanian "pe" means "from/of/by" and "lang" means "liquid" ("lag" means "wet"). The same for the Greek word πελαργός (stork) which is wordformed by "pe largu" (in standard Albanian "prej largesie" = "from away", 'cause the stork is a pilgrim bird). When I asked you if you think that Albanian shprehem is borrowed from German sprechen your opinion was "pro" and it is quite logical, but in Albanian it's an antonym of prehem!

Endri
28-12-11, 00:02
Also 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Taranis
28-12-11, 00:22
You may be right relating to English "speak" and Albanian "shpik". But I wonder, why you passed in silence the German sprechen (speak) and Albanian shprehem (express)?

When Endri asked you for the etymology of albanian word "vjeshta", you gave your opinion that it must be "west". You're quite right in the sense that you think in your own language or in languages you know very well. As a matter of fact, the old form of "vjeshta" has been "vjelshta" (the autumn) and it comes from Albanian "vjel" (harvest). There are numerous Albanian words whose etymologies are not correct. So, if I ask you for the etymology of the Albanian word "pellg" (pool, pond, lake, sea) your answer may be for the Greek πέλαγος” (sea), but both Albanian "pellg" and Greek πέλαγος are wordformmed by pe and lag (πέ-λαγος). In dialectal Albanian "pe" means "from/of/by" and "lang" means "liquid" ("lag" means "wet"). The same for the Greek word πελαργός (stork) which is wordformed by "pe largu" (in standard Albanian "prej largesie" = "from away", 'cause the stork is a pilgrim bird). When I asked you if you think that Albanian shprehem is borrowed from German sprechen your opinion was "pro" and it is quite logical, but in Albanian it's an antonym of prehem!

Hal Fao, I'm growing tired of your false etymologies, and I'm even less pleased of you claiming that I said things which I never did. You seem to have the underlying assumption that Albanian is somehow the 'mother of all European languages' and that all words in all other languages can be somehow magically "dismantled" via Albanian. It completely ignores that the Albanian language too has a history, and that the language has not been constant and unchanged over the past 2000 or 2500 years. You also completely ignore the methodology used by linguists and despite numerous examples given how things really work, even examples of how they apply in Albanian, you chose to ignore it.

To pick up your examples, even if we completely disregard that the words have completely different etymologies, unless the ancient Greeks were time travellers, it's impossible for Classical Greek to pick up words from modern Albanian.

I have attempted in this thread to appropriately tackle the Albanian in this thread and to demonstrate an appropriate amount of respect and attention to the language. I admit that I may have sporadically made mistakes in the past, and whenever that is the case, I apologized for them and correct myself. But, I have no tolerance for your pseudoscience.

Endri
28-12-11, 00:39
Also 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Why do i get ignored -_-*...

Diurpaneus
28-12-11, 09:21
At first look, my opinion is that is a composed word. The root being the word 'ara' (basically meaning 'field' in archaic albanian or smth like 'crop field'in modern one) ('arat' plural) and meaning "iki/vrapoj arave", "run through the fields" english. I mean seeing how we (albania) were a agricultural country and undeveloped (in Industry) until the end of WW II saying for smo who escapes that he runned through the fields seems pretty logic?




Also i would like to know the roots of the words 'Verë(a)'-'Summer' and 'Vjeshtë(a)'-'Autumn'. I know 'Dimër'-'Winter' is of PIE root since i think i saw it smo on Taranis posts, and 'Pranvera'-'Spring' literally meaning 'Near summer' so the only ones remaining are this two + is there andy connection between the word 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vera' (wine)? Or just coincidences?



In Romanian
ara= to plough
arat=ploughed field
vara=summer
primavara=spring
veshted=sear

Taranis
28-12-11, 11:56
Why do i get ignored -_-*...

It's not that you get ignored, but that I haven't found a satisfying etymology for the word yet.


In Romanian
ara= to plough
arat=ploughed field
vara=summer
primavara=spring
veshted=sear

*ar- is a common Indo-European root word meaning "plough" or "to plow".

- Celtic (Gaulish "aratron", Old Irish "arathar", Welsh "aradr" - all which mean 'plough')
- Latin "arare" (to plow, the Romanian word is almost certainly derived from this one)
- Germanic (English "to ear" - archaic word for "to plough")
- Baltic (Lithuanian "arti" - to plow)
- Greek "aratro" (plough)

What I wonder on is the exact relationship between Dacian (from which Romanian clearly borrowed words) and Albanian. My opinion is that Albanian is not descended from Dacian, but that it clearly has Dacian loanwords. In particular:

PIE *k´ corresponds with Dacian *ts (written "c" in Albanian, "ț" in Romanian) and Albanian *θ (written "th")

PIE *g´ (and earlier *g´h) corresponds with Dacian *dz (written "x" in Albanian) and Albanian *ð (written "dh").

An example of a common Dacian that shows the above would be Romanian "țap" and Albanian "cjap", both which mean "male goat".

There is also the case that the native Albanian and the borrowed Dacian word seemingly exist side by side, for example "kedh" and "kec" (young goat), even though the expected form is "kex".

Diurpaneus
29-12-11, 10:50
What I wonder on is the exact relationship between Dacian (from which Romanian clearly borrowed words) and Albanian. My opinion is that Albanian is not descended from Dacian, but that it clearly has Dacian loanwords. In particular:

PIE *k´ corresponds with Dacian *ts (written "c" in Albanian, "ț" in Romanian) and Albanian *θ (written "th")

PIE *g´ (and earlier *g´h) corresponds with Dacian *dz (written "x" in Albanian) and Albanian *ð (written "dh").

An example of a common Dacian that shows the above would be Romanian "țap" and Albanian "cjap", both which mean "male goat".

There is also the case that the native Albanian and the borrowed Dacian word seemingly exist side by side, for example "kedh" and "kec" (young goat), even though the expected form is "kex".
I think you're right.
Dacians also lived south of the Danube(Serbia and northern Bulgaria).
There are two davas in Dardania(Quemedava and Itadava) also Thermidava in Albania.

Hal Fao
30-12-11, 11:23
Hal Fao, I'm growing tired of your false etymologies ...
In my above post I have argued that the Albanian word "shpreh" (or "shprehem") is wordformmed as a result of internal development of Albanian, i.e. it's not a borrowed word, that it is an antonym of “preh” (or "prehem" which means "to rest peacefully" or "to stay relaxly, like dreaming or meditating").
Examples that I brought here, like:
"prek" and "sprek";
"prekem" and "sprekem";
"preh" and "shpreh";
"prehem" and "shprehem"
are Albanian antonyms and relate to each other.
I do not see any falsity here.
Even I think that the true etymology of the German "sprechen" is exactly the Albanian word "shprehem" (may be that’s the reason why you are so much tired of my “false” etymologies).
Albanian society has been very isolated and was developed on its own traditional way.
I totally agree with Dagne who says: "... the more traditional the society, the more traditional is the language ... I do not think that this feature (stubbornness) is something to be proud of ".

Taranis
30-12-11, 13:57
In my above post I have argued that the Albanian word "shpreh" (or "shprehem") is wordformmed as a result of internal development of Albanian, i.e. it's not a borrowed word, that it is an antonym of “preh” (or "prehem" which means "to rest peacefully" or "to stay relaxly, like dreaming or meditating").
Examples that I brought here, like:
"prek" and "sprek";
"prekem" and "sprekem";
"preh" and "shpreh";
"prehem" and "shprehem"
are Albanian antonyms and relate to each other.
I do not see any falsity here.
Even I think that the true etymology of the German "sprechen" is exactly the Albanian word "shprehem" (may be that’s the reason why you are so much tired of my “false” etymologies).

Well, let us take a look at the word for 'to speak' (or other cognates) in other Germanic languages:


Anglo-Saxon "sprecan" (later "specan", which is the source of the English word "speak")
Dutch "spreken"
Norwegian/Swedish "språk" ("language")
Old High German "sprehhan"
German "sprechen"


If you look at this, it's clear that German *χ (written "ch") is derived from an earlier *k which is found elsewhere in the Germanic languages. The Germanic root form is *sprek hence. If you consider that the Proto-Germanic language shifted it's sound according to Grimm's Law, then the ancestral form was *spreg. If you look at this, there are cognates of this word in Latin ("spargere", "to scatter") and in Greek "ασπαραγος" (asparagus). The common meaning here is 'to bring forth' (in the case of "to speak" from your mouth, and in the case of asparagus, from the ground).

What you are basically doing is that you have first and foremost assumption that everything must revolve around (modern) Albanian. Why should the Germans borrow a word from Albanian if it's clear that a related word exists in other Germanic languages, and it's clear that it was shifted according to the second germanic sound shift in German?


Albanian society has been very isolated and was developed on its own traditional way.
I totally agree with Dagne who says: "... the more traditional the society, the more traditional is the language ... I do not think that this feature (stubbornness) is something to be proud of ".

I'm sorry, but it's very obvious that Albanian is not a very traditional or isolated language. If it was isolated, it would not have picked up so many loanwords from so many different languages (Greek, Dacian, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkic). What is true is that Albanian is isolated in the context of other modern Indo-European languages, in the way that there are no closely related living relatives.

You can also take a look at Albanian grammar for this: Albanian has five cases (Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Ablative), plus a vestigial sixth case (the Vocative). This is already a simplification from the condition in Proto-Indo-European (preserved in Sanskrit), which had two more cases (the Instrumental and the Locative). The Baltic languages, to which Dagne refered to, have preserved this original condition except for the Ablative.

Endri
30-12-11, 14:23
Hal Fao lol...not to be repetitive but WTF o.O

1) 'sprek' as you wrote it doesn't exist in albanian. Is "s'prek" cause the /s/ in 'prek' can be substituted with 'nuk', which means in this case /s/ and /nuk/ are the same. 3-rd grade grammar and writting OMG. Hape tek faqja 26 (http://www.botimepegi.al/phocadownload/Mesuesi/Gjuha shqipe 3.pdf)

2) 'sprekem' the same as 'sprek'. Is "s'prekem", /s/ and /nuk/ are the same so "s'prekem" is the same as " nuk prekem".

3) 'prek' and 'prekem' are not different words for god's sake. Prek is first person, singular, Present Tense Verb, Demostrative Way (mënyra dëftore) (I touch) while Prekem is first person, singular, Present Tense Verb, Non active Voice Form of Demostrative Way ('Non Active Voice form' might have been written wrong cause idk the correct translation from albanian but in albanian is "Forma Jo Veprore"), and in the non active voice form of Demostrative way the verb take the ending -em,-esh,-et,-emi,-eni,-en. This is the same for 'preh' and 'prehem' with the only diff that since they are in the first conjugation group instead of -em,-esh,-et,-emi,-eni,-en, they take, -hem,-hesh,-het,-hemi,-heni,-hen. Same as 'preh' and 'prehem' is 'shpreh' and 'shprehem'. Same Conjugation group words.
Foljet (http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Format_e_shtjelluara_të_foljes)

4)'shpreh' 'shprehem' is not the negative from of 'preh' or 'prehem' cause:
4.1) shpreh means to express my self while preh means 'I rest in peace' (not necessarily dead)
4.2) shpreh is from the latin word 'expressa' (I got the latin word from Google Translate since i only knew the Italian word)
4.3) Very few words that start with /sh/ expresses negativity

Words that start with /sh/ and don't express negativity: Shi, Shtëpi, Shoqe, Shok, Shegë, Sharrë, Shkallë, Shkollë, Shall, Shami, Shaka, Shushunjë, Shkurre ect...

Hal Fao
31-12-11, 01:30
... The Germanic root form is *sprek hence....
The Proto Germanic *sprek is a reconstructed word (by German linguists), and phonetically it's done very well. Look that the Albanian root form of shpreh (express) is sprek too. The difference is that Albanian sprek (or s'prek for Endri's sake) is not a reconstructed word, it does still survive in Albanian!


If you look at this, there are cognates of this word in Latin ("spargere", "to scatter" and in Greek "ασπαραγος" (asparagus).
No, it does not function. The Proto German *sprek cognates with Albanian s'prek (do not touch), the meaning here is“to communicate by the distance, not by touching someone”. No comment!


Why should the Germans borrow a word from Albanian if it's clear that a related word exists in other Germanic languages, and it's clear that it was shifted according to the second germanic sound shift in German?
It is borrowed by all Germanic languages. Anyway, when I say “borrowed from Albanian” I mean first of all Etruscan and Rhaetian, as well as Thracian and Dacian too.


What is true is that Albanian is isolated in the context of other modern Indo-European languages, in the way that there are no closely related living relatives.

You’re right. The closely related relatives of Albanian are dead, may be two thousands years ago (Etruscan, Thracian and Dacian). Although Albanian is a living language, linguists know almost nothing of it, do you expect them to reveal Etruscan?

Taranis
31-12-11, 02:13
The Proto Germanic *sprek is a reconstructed word (by German linguists), and phonetically it's done very well. Look that the Albanian root form of shpreh (express) is sprek too. The difference is that Albanian sprek (or s'prek for Endri's sake) is not a reconstructed word, it does still survive in Albanian!

No, it does not function. The Proto German *sprek cognates with Albanian s'prek (do not touch), the meaning here is“to communicate by the distance, not by touching someone”. No comment!

Indeed, no comment.


It is borrowed by all Germanic languages. Anyway, when I say “borrowed from Albanian” I mean first of all Etruscan and Rhaetian, as well as Thracian and Dacian too.

You’re right. The closely related relatives of Albanian are dead, may be two thousands years ago (Etruscan, Thracian and Dacian). Although Albanian is a living language, linguists know almost nothing of it, do you expect them to reveal Etruscan?

I'm tired of all your claims that Etruscan was related with Albanian when it is clearly, and obviously not. In fact, I have given you the perfect way to test it a very long time ago:

The Pyrgi Tablets are a bilingual inscription, with one text written in Phoenician, the other text is written in Etruscan. Since Phoenician is a Semitic language, very similar to Hebrew, we can read it with ease and are absolutely certain about the content. The Etruscan part of the inscription must have the same content, if not literally word by word, then at least by the general meaning.

So, unless you properly and with absolute scrutiny can come up with a translation of the Etruscan part of the Pyrgi Tablets into what you deem as "Albanian" and which has the same meaning (and not gibberish!) as the Phoenician parts of the Tablets, your claim about Etruscan has no basis what so ever. I wish you good luck with such an endeavour, because I am absolutely certain that it is impossible.

The alternative that you must argue is that the Phoenician tablet too is somehow completely "unreadable", and that all Semitologists in the world are absolutely wrong about the Phoenician language, and that indeed all linguists in the world are lying to us, and that there is a massive conspiracy in the academic world to cover this up. Which one is more likely?

Endri
31-12-11, 02:18
The Proto Germanic *sprek is a reconstructed word (by German linguists), and phonetically it's done very well. Look that the Albanian root form of shpreh (express) is sprek too. The difference is that Albanian sprek (or s'prek for Endri's sake) is not a reconstructed word, it does still survive in Albanian!

I'm gonna make it pretty simple. S'prek is not a GOD DAMN WORD! You say "s'prek" while I say "nuk prek" . Can you tell me the difference from "s'prek" and "nuk prek"? You can't cause there is no god damn difference. The thing of "s'prek" is not of linguistic error but a damn GRAMMATICAL error. The negative /s'/ has nothing to do with linguistic for gods sake. It can be put in front of all verbs that show action.

Exp: dëgjoj-s'dëgjoj, lexoj-s'lexoj, këndoj-s'këndoj, kërcej-s'kërcej, luaj-s'luaj, hidhem-s'hidhem (see why s' is needed ??), gjuaj-s'gjuaj, bëj-s'bëj, shkoj-s'shkoj and prek-s'prek. Stop confusing PLS

Also i can't imagine how s'prek can be the root of shpreh. Can you enlighten me how the fak* we ended from s'prek to shpreh?

No, it does not function. The Proto German *sprek cognates with Albanian s'prek (do not touch), the meaning here is“to communicate by the distance, not by touching someone”. No comment!

WTF! Could you use s'prek in the sentence to have the meaning of

"to communicate by the distance, not by touching someone"
cause no offense but you're re-writing grammar here...

It is borrowed by all Germanic languages. Anyway, when I say “borrowed from Albanian” I mean first of all Etruscan and Rhaetian, as well as Thracian and Dacian too.

You’re right. The closely related relatives of Albanian are dead, may be two thousands years ago (Etruscan, Thracian and Dacian). Although Albanian is a living language, linguists know almost nothing of it, do you expect them to reveal Etruscan?

Etruscan cannot be related to albanian cause:
1) Etruscan is not IE language (Tyrsenian language) while albanian is IE language
2) There are no documented mass migrations of our people to any place


You're basically re-writing, besides grammar, our language history too.

Responses in Bold-Italic

Hal Fao
31-12-11, 13:10
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Hal Fao http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=390555#post390555)
The Proto Germanic *sprek is a reconstructed word (by German linguists), and phonetically it's done very well. Look that the Albanian root form of shpreh (express) is sprek too. The difference is that Albanian sprek (or s'prek for Endri's sake) is not a reconstructed word, it does still survive in Albanian!
No, it does not function. The Proto German *sprek cognates with Albanian s'prek (do not touch), the meaning here is“to communicate by the distance, not by touching someone”. No comment!
Indeed, no comment.
Taranis, you're playing games!
I've expressed my idea for the reconstruction of Proto Germanic *sprek, which phonetically is well-reconstructed (to my opinion) but givin' to it the meaning "scatter" or "jerk" is a nonsense (although it's not too far from its real meaning "do not touch").
Sorry, but you're a partisan in linguistics, so your discussions would never be interesting (I know your answer before you post it).
Anyway, I'm asking you again: Do you think Albanian shprehem cognates with German sprechen?

Endri
31-12-11, 14:54
OMG

1) S'prek not a WORD!
2) Shprehem (first person, singular, Present Tense Verb, Non active Voice Form of Demostrative Way) is the conjugated from of the verb Shpreh, thus not a word in itself, unless you're saying we borrowed the conjugated form of a verb from another language
3) Shpreh from latin expressa.

Expressa>xpres>spre>shpre(h) (since h is not very well pronounced and was added only on 1972 with the standardization of the language) (Also in italian the /x/ in expressa has became /s/ esprimere) also is not the first word borrowed from latin when the vocal /e/ in the beggining of the word gets lost. An example is Ecclesia-Kisha (church).

PS: Before the greeks or smo comes here and starts "OMG Ecclesia is a greek word!!!" I know and it meant smth like council in Athens but this word was borrowed from Romans and got the current meaning of Church and it came to albanian from the Latin not Greek. I'm not trying to find the root the Ecclesia here...

Taranis
02-01-12, 11:36
Taranis, you're playing games!

I'm not playing games. I stand to my statement regarding the Pyrgi Tablets.


I've expressed my idea for the reconstruction of Proto Germanic *sprek, which phonetically is well-reconstructed (to my opinion) but givin' to it the meaning "scatter" or "jerk" is a nonsense (although it's not too far from its real meaning "do not touch").

Note that that the Proto-Germanic stem is *sprek-. The actual word for "to speak" would be *sprekanan.

And well, I have told you what I have told you about Grimm's Law. You should be able to figure out what the pre-Proto-Germanic form is, and why the words I gave for Latin and Greek are cognates.


Sorry, but you're a partisan in linguistics, so your discussions would never be interesting (I know your answer before you post it).

Excuse me?


Anyway, I'm asking you again: Do you think Albanian shprehem cognates with German sprechen?

Albanian has the developments *s > *ʃ after *k, and *s > *h at intervocalic positions exist in Albanian.

The reconstructed ancestral form is hence something akin to *kspes-. Therefore I would agree with Endri that the ancestral form likely is expressere.


You're basically re-writing, besides grammar, our language history too.

To the point exactly!

Endri
14-01-12, 02:00
I would like to know the possible root of these two words:

"Dhen"-"sheep" but more like a herd of sheeps not a single sheep and "vathë"-"sheep pen"

Marin
18-01-12, 09:26
Greetings, I just registered and will try to contribute to this discussion. I will always try to use the ë and ç letters as required by the language.

My observations of Albanian language is that the core language itself sounds very primitive. These are some patterns that I have observed.

Patterns/words that I consider Albanian or heavily modified by Albanian.

-mb - mbërthej, mbuloj,mbështes,mbyt,mpiks(mbiks?),mburr,mbrapa,m bas,mbush,mbroj,mbyll
translation fasten,cover,lay/lean,suffocate,clot,boast,behind,after,fill up,defend, shut

zg - zgërdhihem translation grin
ng - ngutem,ngas,ngre,ngrys,ngop,ngurroj,ngatërroj,(i/e ) ngratë,ngarkoj,ngërthej
translation hurry,drive/ride,raise/lift up,darken/scowl, satiate, hesitate, (to) mistake, unfortunate, load,clutch

other patterns

shk - shkërdhej,shkatërroj,shkruaj,shkrumb (contains both shk and mb in one, chances are its not a borrowed word),shkëndijë
translation - ****,destroy,write( from latin) - compare with kruaj(alb) - to scratch writing is scratching, ash/char/tiny ,bits,spark
për (same as Latin per) përfundoj,përplas,përshpejtoj,përshkruaj,përp aroj,përmbaroj,përgënjeshtroj,përshkallëzoj,p ërkufizoj (there are dozens of verbs starting with për).
translation finish,crash,speed up, describe, (to) progress, enforce/execute, deny,step up, define

arjan
05-02-12, 00:23
I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti".



I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

and in Albanian exist dhe word *terr- ters for (dry) or thirst in English

Endri
07-02-12, 15:47
and in Albanian exist dhe word *terr- ters for (dry) or thirst in English

Um...actually the word you mean is "ter" (n) and doesn't exactly mean "dry" but as a word shows the action of putting the clothes to dry.

"terr" means "very dark" and "ters" is bad luck....

Hal Fao
12-02-12, 11:53
Well, I’m explaining the Albanian words terr (darkness, obscurity) and ter [dry (v)] as well as the way these words are wordformed in Albanian.
The wordroot of Albanian terr is err (“darken”, “obscure”).
Të err (or in Gheg dialect tu err) means “to darken”/“to obscure”. The Gheg tu err means also “darkening”, “obscuring”. The Albanian verb të err (or tu err) used to pronounce t’err (as a verb), thus terr (as a noun).
The wordroot of Albanian ter /ter/ (“to air”, “to dry”) is er (erë) /erə/ that means “air”/“wind”. The real meaning of Albanian ter is “to expose smth on the air/wind in order to dry it”. Albanian ter (n&v) is the wordroot of Latin terra (“land”, “a dryed surface”).
It is wordformed in the same way as terr (darkness, obscurity).

Taranis
12-02-12, 13:43
Albanian ter (n&v) is the wordroot of Latin terra (“land”, “a dryed surface”).

No offense, but this does not make any sense. How can a word in Albanian (which is a modern language) be the source of a word in Latin (an ancient language). I know that you have foregone opinion that Albanian must be somehow an ancient language (which I have demonstrated that it isn't), and I also know that you have the opinion that the Albanian language was unchanged for 2000+ years. The latter is something which can not only be demostrated to be completely false (I've also, during the course of this thread, attempted to shed some light on what real ancient Albanian must have looked like, as well putting into the context of other Indo-European languages), but is also extremely unlikely in general if you consider that ALL languages change over time, and even languages which have comparatively little canges to them (such as Greek) are not immune to changes. Why should Albanian be exempted from rules that apply to every known language?

As Endri said, why are you trying to rewrite history? Why does everything have to revolve around (modern!) Albanian?

Hal Fao
13-02-12, 00:35
@ Taranis. I don’t know why you are so much inclined to reject all my ideas.
Here's what you think about the etymology of the Latin word "terra":


"Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".
… and here is what I think about the etymology of the Latin word “terra”:


The wordroot of Albanian ter /ter/ (“to air”, “to dry”) is er (erë) /erə/ that means “air”/“wind”. The real meaning of Albanian ter is “to expose smth on the air/wind in order to dry it”. Albanian ter (n&v) is the wordroot of Latin terra (“land”, “a dryed surface”). It is wordformed in the same way as the Albanian word “terr”.
Here is the way that Albanian word terr is wordformed:


The wordroot of Albanian terr is err (“darken”, “obscure”).
Të err (or in Gheg dialect tu err) means “to darken”/“to obscure”. The Gheg tu err means also “darkening”, “obscuring”. The Albanian verb të err (or tu err) used to pronounce t’err (as a verb), thus terr (as a noun).
As you can see, we both think that the etymology of the Latin word "terra" is the word *ter/s (dry). The difference between us is that you consider it as a PIE word while I consider it as an Albanian one, wordformed according to the internal rules of the Albanian wordformation.


... but is also extremely unlikely in general if you consider that ALL languages change over time, and even languages which have comparatively little canges to them (such as Greek) are not immune to changes. Why should Albanian be exempted from rules that apply to every known language?
I did never express that Albanian has not changed, however, I assure you that its changes (especially the Gheg dialect) have been relatively small.


... why are you trying to rewrite history?
There is no history on my posts!


No offense, but ... .
Although "civilized" be the manner with which we express our aggression, basically it's the same one ..

Endri
13-02-12, 00:47
Well, I’m explaining the Albanian words terr (darkness, obscurity) and ter [dry (v)] as well as the way these words are wordformed in Albanian.
The wordroot of Albanian terr is err (“darken”, “obscure”).
Të err (or in Gheg dialect tu err) means “to darken”/“to obscure”. The Gheg tu err means also “darkening”, “obscuring”. The Albanian verb të err (or tu err) used to pronounce t’err (as a verb), thus terr (as a noun).
The wordroot of Albanian ter /ter/ (“to air”, “to dry”) is er (erë) /erə/ that means “air”/“wind”. The real meaning of Albanian ter is “to expose smth on the air/wind in order to dry it”. Albanian ter (n&v) is the wordroot of Latin terra (“land”, “a dryed surface”).
It is wordformed in the same way as terr (darkness, obscurity).

I agree (from what i know about my language and lingustic) that the root of "terr" might be/is is "err" though I must disagree on "ter". On both the etymology to "erë" and that "ter" is the root for "terra".

-Why i disagree on the etymology of "er".
The word "erë-era" itself in it's first meaning doesn't mean wind but smell.
Exp: 1) It smells-Bie erë/Vjen erë/Mban erë/Ka erë
2) I smell- Ndjej erë ect
3) or just smell-erë
All this on the meaning of smell while for wind the most used word combination is "fryn erë" which from modern albanian is translated "windy" in it's first meaning i think it means "smell is 'moving' " since when the wind blows you can fell different smells in the air. This is the reason why i think that the first meaning of "erë" was smell and not wind.

An example i can bring that modern albanian words have change their meaning with time is from "Meshari" of Gjon Buzuku where in a paragraph he says:

Ndë vjetët 1554 njëzet dit ndë mars zuna nfill, e mbarova ndë vjetët 1555, ndë kallënduor 5 ditë. E se për fat në keshë kun mbë ndonjë vend fëjyem, u duo tuk të jetë fajtë, aj qi të jetë ma i ditëshim se u, ata faj e lus ta trajtojnë ndë e mirë...Përse nukë çuditem se në paça fëjyem, këjo tue klenë ma e para vepërë e fort e fështirë për të vepruom ndë gluhët tanë..

Which is translated into modern albanian as:

Ne vitin 1554 njëzet ditë të marsit e fillova dhe e mbarova në vitin 1555, në dhjetor 5 ditë. E në se, për fat, do të kem gabuar kund më ndonjë vend, unë dua, ku të jetë gabimi, ai që të jetë më i ditur se unë, atë gabim e lus ta ndreq. Sepse nuk çuditem në paça gabuar, duke qenë kjo vepër e parë e fort e vështirë për t'u punuar në gjuhën tonë

What i wanna notice among similarities and differences (who surprisingly are very few even though it is written in a different dialect) the word "fëjyem" ("fyej" in modern day albanian) which is interpreted as "gaboj" in modern language. "fyej" in modern day albanian mean insult while "gaboj" means "do/make a mistake" while in the albanian spoken ~500 years ago "fyej" meant "do/make a mistake". So this itself is an example of a word changing meaning in our language over time and a prove that our language has changed/evolved over time and not remained the same, though how much has changed is not what we're discussing here.

-Why I disagree that "Terra" is from "Ter".
--The main reason is not lingustic but simply logical. An "ancient" word cannot simple come from a modern word. Is like saying that WWI happened cause of the results of WWII.
--Other reason is that a language, no matter what language, what civilization spoke it or how advanced that civilization is or was does not remain unchanged given a period of time and circumstances. I mean, even the language we speak today, be it albanian, english, german or whatever it changes from the respective language spoken 50-60 years ago. Same words have different meanings now and then, new words have been formed and old ones lost. (Exp is "Meshari" again)
--Another reason is that even with the wildest imagination we even consider that "ter" is from "terra", "terra" is a latin word and latin is an italic language (if i'm not mistaken) so by saying that "terra" comes from "ter" you're either saying that (1) Albanian is an Italic language (which clearly isn't), (2) that latin is in the same language group as albanian (which again clearly isn't) or (3) that the Latin tribe somehow borrowed this word from ancient albanians before Rome conquered the "World" since "terra" is a latin word which "latins" (i refer to the tribe) used before Rome conquered the "world" and imposed Latin thus assimilating all the other languages.

-What i think is possible is (1) that "ter" may come from "terra" with it's first meaning "dry land" or just "dry" or "land" and then with time it might have changed meaning or (2) that "ter" is a native albanian word.

Yetos
13-02-12, 10:22
Ter as dry?

compare Greek Θερ-μανσις Θερ-ος dacian Ger-mi

Ter as Dry might be cognate with Heat -warm
Heat and warm makes clothes dry, and land Dry
also English Thirsty (so warm that needs to be cooling with water)
Greek word for summer is Θερος (wormy)
comparing with other simmilar like Ger as I wrote above, I believe that is older ancient world, which took its own meaning in modern languages

Hal Fao
13-02-12, 10:47
Greek word for summer is Θερος (wormy)
comparing with other simmilar like Ger as I wrote above, I believe that is older ancient world, which took its own meaning in modern languages
The Greek word Θερος cognates also with Albanian terës /terəs/ (dryer).

Taranis
13-02-12, 12:18
@ Taranis. I don’t know why you are so much inclined to reject all my ideas.

Let me say this, I do not reject these ideas because I have some personal animosity towards or something like that, far from it. The reasons for my rejection are otherwise: the first is that what you propose and believe is in gross violation of all linguistic methodology, as well as all the research into Indo-European languages that has been developed over the past 150 years. The second is that it requires (from my point of view) is that I find it presumptous and assuming to have "it all figured out" and to assume that everything turns and moves about the Albanian language.

There's also something else. It's called Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor). :satisfied:


Here's what you think about the etymology of the Latin word "terra":

Yes, I've stated that the root is constructed as *ters-. This is also backed up by various cognates in other branches of IE.

- Celtic has "tír" in Irish, and "tir" in Welsh.
- Germanic has for example English "thirst" and German "Durst".
- Classical Greek "tersomai" ("to dry").
- Sanskrit has "tṛṣyati" ("to thirst").

Classical Greek, Latin and Sanskrit are all ancient languages, and although Irish/Welsh and English/German are modern languages respectively, in both cases they are descended from ancient languages (Proto-Celtic and Proto-Germanic), and one has to assume that the root word was already present in the ancestor language. Thus, what is more likely? That Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Indo-Iranic and Italic borrowed this root from a (modern) Albanian word, or that they are descended from a common PIE root?


… and here is what I think about the etymology of the Latin word “terra”:

Here is the way that Albanian word terr is wordformed:

As you can see, we both think that the etymology of the Latin word "terra" is the word *ter/s (dry). The difference between us is that you consider it as a PIE word while I consider it as an Albanian one, wordformed according to the internal rules of the Albanian wordformation.

Well, from the above, I can tell you that this is complete nonsense. As I said, why do you think that everything has to revolve around modern Albanian? Why and how can you be so presumptuous and assume that, what you perceive as internal word formation in Albanian was purportedly the basis of ancient words (mind you, I've shown you that the word has cognates in Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Indo-Iranic)?


I did never express that Albanian has not changed, however, I assure you that its changes (especially the Gheg dialect) have been relatively small.

Well, I've shown plenty of examples in this thread (especially the treatment of loanwords) that clearly show that Albanian has made substantial changes over the centuries, and it would be unreasonable to assume anything else. I mean, it's not just the vocabulary, but also the grammar. I've stated earlier in that compared to ancient Indo-European languages (notably Sanskrit), Albanian has a fairly simplified grammar.


There is no history on my posts!

Well then, how do you consider this statement:


It is borrowed by all Germanic languages. Anyway, when I say “borrowed from Albanian” I mean first of all Etruscan and Rhaetian, as well as Thracian and Dacian too.

You’re right. The closely related relatives of Albanian are dead, may be two thousands years ago (Etruscan, Thracian and Dacian). Although Albanian is a living language, linguists know almost nothing of it, do you expect them to reveal Etruscan?

In the above example you acknowledge on the one hand that Thracian and Dacian are close relatives of Albanian (which is also what mainstream linguistics think, but which indeed requires the Albanian language to have substantially changed, and I gave a good example of that, especially the fact that Albanian possesses a few native words alongside with Dacian loanwords). On the other hand you keep claiming that Etruscan and Raetian are related with Albanian, and from what you've shown me of your "translations", you're basically assuming that these ancient Etruscan inscriptions (which clearly represent a non-Indo-European language, and as I have stated, it's easily possible to verify the non-Indo-Europeanness of Etruscan due to the fact that bilingual inscriptions exist) are supposed to represent essentially modern Albanian, which is also only contradicting the above.

To get back to the example of the Latin word "terra", you essentially assume that the ancient Romans borrowed a word from modern Albanian (or vice versa, that virtually unchanged modern Albanian was spoken in ancient times by the Etruscan), which is, as I have stated, not only incredibly presumptous, but also completely unscientific.

Taranis
13-02-12, 12:35
Ter as dry?

compare Greek Θερ-μανσις Θερ-ος dacian Ger-mi

Ter as Dry might be cognate with Heat -warm
Heat and warm makes clothes dry, and land Dry
also English Thirsty (so warm that needs to be cooling with water)
Greek word for summer is Θερος (wormy)
comparing with other simmilar like Ger as I wrote above, I believe that is older ancient world, which took its own meaning in modern languages

Sorry, but that's not a cognate with "terra". You have to consider Greek sound laws. In general, Greek 'th' corresponds with PIE *dh (and likewise 'ph' and 'kh' correspond with PIE *bh and *gh), which means it cannot be a cognate with *t (which is also reflect as 't' into Greek from PIE), but there's other cases:

In the case of Greek "θερμης" (thermes), it is derived from the PIE root *gwher-, meaning "warm" or "hot". *gwh is reflected by the following rules into Greek: it becomes 'th' before PIE *i or *e, 'kh' before PIE *u and 'ph' in other cases. Thus, as seen above, *gwher- > *ther-.

The actual Greek cognate with "terra" is, as I have stated, "tersomai" (to dry).


The Greek word Θερος cognates also with Albanian terës /terəs/ (dryer).

The Albanian cognate of Greek theros/thermes is "zjarr" or "zjarrtë" ("zjarm" in Gheg).

Yetos
14-02-12, 11:22
Sorry, but that's not a cognate with "terra". You have to consider Greek sound laws. In general, Greek 'th' corresponds with PIE *dh (and likewise 'ph' and 'kh' correspond with PIE *bh and *gh), which means it cannot be a cognate with *t (which is also reflect as 't' into Greek from PIE), but there's other cases:

In the case of Greek "θερμης" (thermes), it is derived from the PIE root *gwher-, meaning "warm" or "hot". *gwh is reflected by the following rules into Greek: it becomes 'th' before PIE *i or *e, 'kh' before PIE *u and 'ph' in other cases. Thus, as seen above, *gwher- > *ther-.

The actual Greek cognate with "terra" is, as I have stated, "tersomai" (to dry).



The Albanian cognate of Greek theros/thermes is "zjarr" or "zjarrtë" ("zjarm" in Gheg).


Well I might agree with Therm and Germ and ter if you follow the laws,
But then the word Χερσος Chersos which in Hellenistic becomes Ξερα Xera-(os) how it cognates with Terra?

and how come Τερσομαι become διψω (change of voice) in Hellenistc
cause all Τερσομαι ανδ Τερπομαι and τερψομαι (τερψις) for me have same root with word θεραπευομαι θεραπεια
(not ιασις) that means then that θεραπεια means warming people?

Hal Fao
18-02-12, 02:19
… the first is that what you propose and believe is in gross violation of all linguistic methodology, as well as all the research into Indo-European languages that has been developed over the past 150 years.
Please, be sure that the only "violation" is that I have taken into account the Albanian too.
Specifically, some times ago we debated on the Albanian word "krye"(head), in Gheg dialect "kre" (head), def. "krea" (the head) and the correlation "krye" (head) - "kryej" (do consciously) - "krijoj"(create).
This correlation is unique in all IE languages​​, classical and modern (except the Sanskrit language which is found in the format "shirah" -"kri" - "srijati").
While the word "krea" (the head) is attested only in modern Albanian, its derivatives are found in classical Greek, in Latin, and in almost all modern European languages​​. When I say that the etymology of these derivatives is the word "krea" it does not mean that these derivatives are borrowed from modern Albanian. No, it’s borrowed from ancient one, i.e. from Etruscan, Illyrian, Thracian or Dacian. Even I’ve found out that Etruscan word for “head” is “cle” /kle/, def. “clea” /klea/ (compare with Gheg Albanian “cre”/”crea” = “head”/“the head”).
And it’s quite understandable.
On the other hand, the presence of such unique words in Albanian should be considered and studied seriously by linguists.


Classical Greek, Latin and Sanskrit are all ancient languages, and although Irish/Welsh and English/German are modern languages respectively, in both cases they are descended from ancient languages (Proto-Celtic and Proto-Germanic), and one has to assume that the root word was already present in the ancestor language. Thus, what is more likely? That Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Indo-Iranic and Italic borrowed this root from a (modern) Albanian word, or that they are descended from a common PIE root?
There is no doubt that all of them (as well as Albanian too) are descended from a common PIE root.
But there is no doubt too that Albanian is closer to PIE than everyone else.
In my opinion, whatever that Albanian is spoken by a relatively small number of speakers, offers some extraordinary surprises to the linguistics.
Now let’s come back to my last post:

Well, I’m explaining the Albanian words terr (darkness, obscurity) and ter [dry (v)] as well as the way these words are wordformed in Albanian.
The wordroot of Albanian terr is err (“darken”, “obscure”).
Të err (or in Gheg dialect tu err) means “to darken”/“to obscure”. The Gheg tu err means also “darkening”, “obscuring”. The Albanian verb të err (or tu err) used to pronounce t’err (as a verb), thus terr (as a noun).
The wordroot of Albanian ter /ter/ (“to air”, “to dry”) is er (erë) /erə/ that means “air”/“wind”. The real meaning of Albanian ter is “to expose smth on the air/wind in order to dry it”. Albanian ter (n&v) is the wordroot of Latin terra (“land”, “a dryed surface”).
It is wordformed in the same way as terr (darkness, obscurity).


Well, from the above, I can tell you that this is complete nonsense. As I said, why do you think that everything has to revolve around modern Albanian? Why and how can you be so presumptuous and assume that, what you perceive as internal word formation in Albanian was purportedly the basis of ancient words (mind you, I've shown you that the word has cognates in Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Indo-Iranic)?
What do you think is a nonsense in my above post:
Do you consider as a nonsense my explanation of how Albanian words “ter” and “terr” are wordformed; or simply the fact that a modern Albanian word can not be taken as etymology for a Latin one?
Do you think that Albanian “err” cognates with English “err”?
Does it give you any impression that Gheg Albanian “tu err” (to darken/to obscure” phonetically is quite similar with English “to err” which means “to mistake” or sth like “to sin” (note that the particle “tu” (to) is present in Gheg Albanian too)?
Do you think Gheg Albanian “tu” (to) is borrowed from English “to” or vice versa?
It survives only in English and in Gheg Albanian (if I’m not wrong).
There is another Albanian word (a verb) that is wordformed by Albanian “të err” (or just “t’err”):
Ther = 1- cut down (a human or animal body); slaughter; 2- cut (a human or animal body) just like a surgery operation (compare these meanings with English “to err”);
Theror (n) = sanctuary sacrifice.
Can you realize now that Albanian “ther” is the real wordroot of “terror”? (thus it’s not true that the etymology of “terror” be the PIE *tre- ).
Although Albanian “ther” is a (modern) Albanian word, its derivatives can be found in Latin and in many other modern European languages too.

And now sth for “therapy” (it’s just a guess):
Ther-ap (ther-hap), which literally means “cut-open”.
So, the first meaning of “therapy” would have been “surgery” (mind you, in the meaning of simple surgery for skin wounds).


In the above example you acknowledge on the one hand that Thracian and Dacian are close relatives of Albanian (which is also what mainstream linguistics think, but which indeed requires the Albanian language to have substantially changed, and I gave a good example of that, especially the fact that Albanian possesses a few native words alongside with Dacian loanwords).
Albanian, like all other languages, does have borrowings. Anyway, you’re looking at it from the outside and just as you’re taught to. Try to see with your own eyes and to think with your own mind.

Yetos
18-02-12, 02:45
Please, be sure that the only "violation" is that I have taken into account the Albanian too.
Specifically, some times ago we debated on the Albanian word "krye"(head), in Gheg dialect "kre" (head), def. "krea" (the head) and the correlation "krye" (head) - "kryej" (do consciously) - "krijoj"(create).
This correlation is unique in all IE languages​​, classical and modern (except the Sanskrit language which is found in the format "shirah" -"kri" - "srijati").
While the word "krea" (the head) is attested only in modern Albanian, its derivatives are found in classical Greek, in Latin, and in almost all modern European languages​​. When I say that the etymology of these derivatives is the word "krea" it does not mean that these derivatives are borrowed from modern Albanian. No, it’s borrowed from ancient one, i.e. from Etruscan, Illyrian, Thracian or Dacian. Even I’ve found out that Etruscan word for “head” is “cle” /kle/, def. “clea” /klea/ (compare with Gheg Albanian “cre”/”crea” = “head”/“the head”).
And it’s quite understandable.
On the other hand, the presence of such unique words in Albanian should be considered and studied seriously by linguists.

There is no doubt that all of them (as well as Albanian too) are descended from a common PIE root.
But there is no doubt too that Albanian is closer to PIE than everyone else.
In my opinion, whatever that Albanian is spoken by a relatively small number of speakers, offers some extraordinary surprises to the linguistics.
Now let’s come back to my last post:


What do you think is a nonsense in my above post:
Do you consider as a nonsense my explanation of how Albanian words “ter” and “terr” are wordformed; or simply the fact that a modern Albanian word can not be taken as etymology for a Latin one?
Do you think that Albanian “err” cognates with English “err”?
Does it give you any impression that Gheg Albanian “tu err” (to darken/to obscure” phonetically is quite similar with English “to err” which means “to mistake” or sth like “to sin” (note that the particle “tu” (to) is present in Gheg Albanian too)?
Do you think Gheg Albanian “tu” (to) is borrowed from English “to” or vice versa?
It survives only in English and in Gheg Albanian (if I’m not wrong).
There is another Albanian word (a verb) that is wordformed by Albanian “të err” (or just “t’err”):
Ther = 1- cut down (a human or animal body); slaughter; 2- cut (a human or animal body) just like a surgery operation (compare these meanings with English “to err”);
Theror (n) = sanctuary sacrifice.
Can you realize now that Albanian “ther” is the real wordroot of “terror”? (thus it’s not true that the etymology of “terror” be the PIE *tre- ).
Although Albanian “ther” is a (modern) Albanian word, its derivatives can be found in Latin and in many other modern European languages too.

And now sth for “therapy” (it’s just a guess):
Ther-ap (ther-hap), which literally means “cut-open”.
So, the first meaning of “therapy” would have been “surgery” (mind you, in the meaning of simple surgery for skin wounds).

Albanian, like all other languages, does have borrowings. Anyway, you’re looking at it from the outside and just as you’re taught to. Try to see with your own eyes and to think with your own mind.



well just to remind you Therion and Mega therion (Θηριον) (Eng tear) (killing animal)
Καρα κρανιον for head-sculp (head-bones) and i think armenian also has similar

and therapy has nothing to do with surgery, but with medical treatment
Θεραπενις is the nurse, cognates with either warm either heal, but i can not certify

err as dark might not be IE since we consider it Pelasgic erevos = dark, erebu in semitic, and might have not IE roots

Taranis
18-02-12, 09:05
Please, be sure that the only "violation" is that I have taken into account the Albanian too.
Specifically, some times ago we debated on the Albanian word "krye"(head), in Gheg dialect "kre" (head), def. "krea" (the head) and the correlation "krye" (head) - "kryej" (do consciously) - "krijoj"(create).
This correlation is unique in all IE languages​​, classical and modern (except the Sanskrit language which is found in the format "shirah" -"kri" - "srijati").
While the word "krea" (the head) is attested only in modern Albanian, its derivatives are found in classical Greek, in Latin, and in almost all modern European languages​​. When I say that the etymology of these derivatives is the word "krea" it does not mean that these derivatives are borrowed from modern Albanian. No, it’s borrowed from ancient one, i.e. from Etruscan, Illyrian, Thracian or Dacian. Even I’ve found out that Etruscan word for “head” is “cle” /kle/, def. “clea” /klea/ (compare with Gheg Albanian “cre”/”crea” = “head”/“the head”).
And it’s quite understandable.
On the other hand, the presence of such unique words in Albanian should be considered and studied seriously by linguists.

There is no doubt that all of them (as well as Albanian too) are descended from a common PIE root.
But there is no doubt too that Albanian is closer to PIE than everyone else.
In my opinion, whatever that Albanian is spoken by a relatively small number of speakers, offers some extraordinary surprises to the linguistics.
Now let’s come back to my last post:


What do you think is a nonsense in my above post:
Do you consider as a nonsense my explanation of how Albanian words “ter” and “terr” are wordformed; or simply the fact that a modern Albanian word can not be taken as etymology for a Latin one?
Do you think that Albanian “err” cognates with English “err”?
Does it give you any impression that Gheg Albanian “tu err” (to darken/to obscure” phonetically is quite similar with English “to err” which means “to mistake” or sth like “to sin” (note that the particle “tu” (to) is present in Gheg Albanian too)?
Do you think Gheg Albanian “tu” (to) is borrowed from English “to” or vice versa?
It survives only in English and in Gheg Albanian (if I’m not wrong).
There is another Albanian word (a verb) that is wordformed by Albanian “të err” (or just “t’err”):
Ther = 1- cut down (a human or animal body); slaughter; 2- cut (a human or animal body) just like a surgery operation (compare these meanings with English “to err”);
Theror (n) = sanctuary sacrifice.
Can you realize now that Albanian “ther” is the real wordroot of “terror”? (thus it’s not true that the etymology of “terror” be the PIE *tre- ).
Although Albanian “ther” is a (modern) Albanian word, its derivatives can be found in Latin and in many other modern European languages too.

And now sth for “therapy” (it’s just a guess):
Ther-ap (ther-hap), which literally means “cut-open”.
So, the first meaning of “therapy” would have been “surgery” (mind you, in the meaning of simple surgery for skin wounds).

Albanian, like all other languages, does have borrowings. Anyway, you’re looking at it from the outside and just as you’re taught to. Try to see with your own eyes and to think with your own mind.

Hal Fao, I noticed that you cleared out the bolded parts of my past reply. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but much of what you claimed is essentially already answered in the post below:


Let me say this, I do not reject these ideas because I have some personal animosity towards or something like that, far from it. The reasons for my rejection are otherwise: the first is that what you propose and believe is in gross violation of all linguistic methodology, as well as all the research into Indo-European languages that has been developed over the past 150 years. The second is that it requires (from my point of view) is that I find it presumptous and assuming to have "it all figured out" and to assume that everything turns and moves about the Albanian language.

There's also something else. It's called Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor).

Yes, I've stated that the root is constructed as *ters-. This is also backed up by various cognates in other branches of IE.

- Celtic has "tír" in Irish, and "tir" in Welsh.
- Germanic has for example English "thirst" and German "Durst".
- Classical Greek "tersomai" ("to dry").
- Sanskrit has "tṛṣyati" ("to thirst").

Classical Greek, Latin and Sanskrit are all ancient languages, and although Irish/Welsh and English/German are modern languages respectively, in both cases they are descended from ancient languages (Proto-Celtic and Proto-Germanic), and one has to assume that the root word was already present in the ancestor language. Thus, what is more likely? That Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Indo-Iranic and Italic borrowed this root from a (modern) Albanian word, or that they are descended from a common PIE root?

Well, from the above, I can tell you that this is complete nonsense. As I said, why do you think that everything has to revolve around modern Albanian? Why and how can you be so presumptuous and assume that, what you perceive as internal word formation in Albanian was purportedly the basis of ancient words (mind you, I've shown you that the word has cognates in Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Indo-Iranic)?

Well, I've shown plenty of examples in this thread (especially the treatment of loanwords) that clearly show that Albanian has made substantial changes over the centuries, and it would be unreasonable to assume anything else. I mean, it's not just the vocabulary, but also the grammar. I've stated earlier in that compared to ancient Indo-European languages (notably Sanskrit), Albanian has a fairly simplified grammar.

Well then, how do you consider this statement:

In the above example you acknowledge on the one hand that Thracian and Dacian are close relatives of Albanian (which is also what mainstream linguistics think, but which indeed requires the Albanian language to have substantially changed, and I gave a good example of that, especially the fact that Albanian possesses a few native words alongside with Dacian loanwords). On the other hand you keep claiming that Etruscan and Raetian are related with Albanian, and from what you've shown me of your "translations", you're basically assuming that these ancient Etruscan inscriptions (which clearly represent a non-Indo-European language, and as I have stated, it's easily possible to verify the non-Indo-Europeanness of Etruscan due to the fact that bilingual inscriptions exist) are supposed to represent essentially modern Albanian, which is also only contradicting the above.

To get back to the example of the Latin word "terra", you essentially assume that the ancient Romans borrowed a word from modern Albanian (or vice versa, that virtually unchanged modern Albanian was spoken in ancient times by the Etruscan), which is, as I have stated, not only incredibly presumptous, but also completely unscientific.

Hal Fao
20-02-12, 11:24
Hal Fao, I noticed that you cleared out the bolded parts of my past reply. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but much of what you claimed is essentially already answered in the post below:[COLOR=#222222]
I do not understand, why you'r trying to foregoing my question (of course there is nothing cleared out in your past reply, it is quite verifiable).
My simple question is: do you accept my proposal that the real etymology for “creare”, “create” … etc. be the Gheg Albanian word “crea” (the head)?


Even I’ve found out that Etruscan word for “head” is “cle” /kle/, def. “clea” /klea/ (compare with Gheg Albanian “cre”/”crea” = “head”/“the head”).
Can’t you realize that Etruscan “clea” /klea/ (the head) be the real etymology for English “clear” (as well as for many Latin words which contain *cle-, *clea- or *clar-)?

Taranis
20-02-12, 12:06
I do not understand, why you'r trying to foregoing my question (of course there is nothing cleared out in your past reply, it is quite verifiable).

The re-read my post.


My simple question is: do you accept my proposal that the real etymology for “creare”, “create” … etc. be the Gheg Albanian word “crea” (the head)?

Can’t you realize that Etruscan “clea” /klea/ (the head) be the real etymology for English “clear” (as well as for many Latin words which contain *cle-, *clea- or *clar-)?

No, obviously not. It's complete nonsense because ancient languages cannot borrow from modern ones (the Etruscan word does not count here, because I'm pretty sure that is just another word of unknown meaning that you took out of the context, and I've demonstrated a long time ago that it's a non-Indo-European language, and I'm still willing to put that to the test via the bilingual Pyrgi Tablets).

I must say that I find the example "clear" particularly educative though, because it shows that you want to be completely ignorant of the fact that languages have a history because you want to tie things with modern Albanian. The English word "clear", for your information, is a loanword derived from Latin "clarus". Have you ever taken a look at the Anglo-Saxon language? Your whole 'system' revolves around superficial similarity, without any form of regularity behind it. To take an example from your previous post, you randomly equate Albanian *t and *th (θ) with Greek *t and *th (*θ, but *tʰ in Classical Greek).

Endri
20-02-12, 15:04
All I'm gonna do is Quote Robert Eisle. When asked by a journalist about Albanology and if there are any good researchers about it, he responded: Well, yes there are people who with hard work and passion achieve smth and reach real scientific conclusion but then there are also charlatans who with albanology have nothing to do yet claim to be so and sell their works as real scientific studies.

Now, Hal Fao why do you make reference to this charlatans or even become one your self. I think, from what i've read that comparing albanian to etruscan is charlatanism. Is like going through the Chinese dictionary and finding some word similar to Albanian and sayin' that the Chinese borrowed that word from us or us from them.

For gods sake stop this nonsense.

Taranis
20-02-12, 15:32
All I'm gonna do is Quote Robert Eisle. When asked by a journalist about Albanology and if there are any good researchers about it, he responded: Well, yes there are people who with hard work and passion achieve smth and reach real scientific conclusion but then there are also charlatans who with albanology have nothing to do yet claim to be so and sell their works as real scientific studies.

Now, Hal Fao why do you make reference to this charlatans or even become one your self. I think, from what i've read that comparing albanian to etruscan is charlatanism. Is like going through the Chinese dictionary and finding some word similar to Albanian and sayin' that the Chinese borrowed that word from us or us from them.

For gods sake stop this nonsense.

Well said, Endri. At this point, I would like to reiterate that I've tried my best in this thread to tackle the Albanian language in an objective and factual matter.

Regarding the Etruscan language, in the past (in particular the 19th century, and even earlier), there have been all kinds of attempts to link it with other known language (including, for example, the Semitic languages and Old Egyptian), all which ultimately failed. There was one person, a certain Zecharia Mayani, who proposed that Etruscan was related to Albanian, but it was generally rejected (http://books.google.de/books?id=4iduFyo3Y0EC&pg=PA9&dq=%2BMayani+%2BAlbanian&as_brr=3&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%2BMayani %2BAlbanian&f=false) as "wildly speculative".

As a matter of fact, Albanian is known since the late 19th century to be an Indo-European language. Etruscan, without any doubt, isn't Indo-European. I've stated this before, and I certainly won't get tired of mentioning it, there exists a bilingual inscription with Etruscan, the Pyrgi Tablets, which include one part in Etruscan, the other part in Phoenician.

5490

The Phoenician language is a Semitic language, very closely related with Hebrew, and as such can be readily deciphered. This means the content of the inscription is known, and one can be certain that the Etruscan part of the inscription must have the same content (even if not literally) as the Phoenician inscription. So unless all Semitologists are also completely wrong about Phoenician language and cannot read it either, there's no way how the interpretation that mainstream scholars have about Etruscan (that it is a non-IE language) could be wrong.

Hal Fao
21-02-12, 01:28
The so-called "translation" of Pyrgi's tablets is nothing more than fantasy.
It is based on the assumption that both texts (Phoenician and Etruscan) should have the same content (or similar), but as a matter of fact, no one on earth knows for sure there is the same content on both inscriptions .
The "text" turns out to be an amorphous set of "words" without organic connection, missing important parts of speech such as articles, conjunctions, pronouns, particles, etc.. with which are invented different "words" needed for the mythical fancied content.
Even the name VELIANAS when mentioned for the second time turns to be VELIIUNAS.
This is the text that is offered as a rough translation, which you believe as a true one, simply ‘cause it’s realized by an “Etruscan scholar” (note that the Author himself does not believe on his translation, that’s why he has called it a rough one)!

julia90
21-02-12, 01:58
Thought some belive that etruscan is distantly related to indoeuropean family languages, as well as some belives that etruscan is related to Minoan

from wikipedia:

The majority consensus is that Etruscan is related only to other members of what is called the Tyrsenian language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages) which is an isolate family, that is, unrelated to other language groups by any known relationship (see Language isolate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate)). Since Rix (1998), it is widely accepted that Tyrsenian is composed of Rhaetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetic_language) and Lemnian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language) together with Etruscan.

Another Aegean language which is possibly related to Etruscan is Minoan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A). The idea of a relation between the language of the Aegean Linear scripts was taken into consideration as the main hypothesis by Michael Ventris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ventris) before discovering that in fact the language behind the more modern Linear B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B) script was Mycenean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenean_language), a Greek dialect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects).Giulio Mauro Facchetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giulio_Mauro_Facchetti&action=edit&redlink=1), a researcher who has dealt with both Etruscan and Minoan put forward again this hypothesis, comparing some of the Minoan words of known meaning with some similar Etruscan words

Some modern scholars[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language#cite_note-6) assert that the Tyrsenian languages are distantly related to the Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) family. More specifically, Frederik Woudhuizen suggests a relation to the Anatolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) branch of the family. Woudhuizen revived a conjecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization#Lydian_immigration_hypothesi s) to the effect that the Tyrsenians came from Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia), including Lydia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia), whence they were driven by the Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians) in the early Iron Age, 750–675 BC, leaving some colonists on Lemnos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos). He makes a number of comparisons of Etruscan to Luwian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian) and asserts that Etruscan is modified Luwian. He accounts for the non-Luwian features as a Mysian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysia)influence: "deviations from Luwian ... may plausibly be ascribed to the dialect of the indigenous population of Mysia."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language#cite_note-7) According to Woudhuizen, the Etruscans were colonizing the Latins. The Etruscans brought the alphabet from Anatolia.

More recently, Robert S.P. Beekes presented a similar case, but argued that the people later known as the Lydians and Etruscans had originally lived in northwest Anatolia, with a coastline to the Sea of Marmara, whence they were driven by the Phrygians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians) c. 1200 BC, leaving a remnant known in antiquity as the Tyrsenoi. A segment of this people moved south-west to Lydia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia), becoming known as the Lydians, while others sailed away to take refuge in Italy, where they became known as Etruscans. The Etruscan language could therefore have been related to a non-Indo-European substratum ofLydian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydian_language).[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language#cite_note-8)

Another proposal, currently pursued mainly by a few linguists from the former Soviet Union, suggests a relationship with Northeast Caucasian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Caucasian) (or Daghestanian) languages.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language#cite_note-robertson-9)


Thyrsenian languages in antiquity
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Tyrsenian_languages.png

Taranis
21-02-12, 03:42
The so-called "translation" of Pyrgi's tablets is nothing more than fantasy.
It is based on the assumption that both texts (Phoenician and Etruscan) should have the same content (or similar), but as a matter of fact, no one on earth knows for sure there is the same content on both inscriptions .

Given how the three plates have the same shape and appearance and were found together, and given how identical names occur in both the Phoenician and the Etruscan text, I would say this is an absolutely reasonable assumption.

ʕštrt - astres (the goddess Astarte)
tbrjʔ wlnš - θefariei welianas ("Tiberius Welianias")
krr - χurwar ("Churwar" - a month name)

What should be added is that the name kjšrjʔ is not found in the Etruscan part of the inscription, but there's a reason for this: it is the name of the town (Caere/Cisra), where the inscription was found. It should be further added that Tiberius Welianias is refered to in the Phoenician inscription as "malik" (king) of Caera/Cisra (or "king of the Caerites"). It's also sensible to assume that Etruscan "unial" (consider that it says "unialastres" in the Etruscan part) is a title, mirroring Phoenician "lady Astarte" or "great Astarte". So we have a lot of information that we can be certain the Etruscan text must also contain. So the assumption that the content should be the same (or even if it is not word-by-word, at least similar) is basically correct.


The "text" turns out to be an amorphous set of "words" without organic connection, missing important parts of speech such as articles, conjunctions, pronouns, particles, etc.. with which are invented different "words" needed for the mythical fancied content.

I think you have a lot of false assumptions about the language. It's also clearly not an amorphous set of words since there's clearly dots to distinguish different words from another.


Even the name VELIANAS when mentioned for the second time turns to be VELIIUNAS.
This is the text that is offered as a rough translation, which you believe as a true one, simply ‘cause it’s realized by an “Etruscan scholar” (note that the Author himself does not believe on his translation, that’s why he has called it a rough one)!

Well, I'm pretty sure it's impossible to come up with a better assumptions, especially the above objections considered regarding names that appear in both words.

Endri
22-02-12, 22:03
So to be back to the actual albanian language...

I was viewing a sorta of documentary about the Albanian minority in Ukraine (near Odessa). Just for the record, they settled there during the first years of the 1800 after having left Albania cause of the pression from the Ottoman Empire. They were from the area of Korça (at least this is what they claim) and first settled in Bulgaria then when Tsar Ekaterina II (if i'm not mistaken) offered them some land near Odessa they moved from Bulgaria and when to Ukraine then part of the Russian Tsardom. Anyway done the preview or the historical facts lets pass to linguistic.

You, Taranis if i'm not mistaken said that were not clear why we, Albanians, called ourselves Shqiptars and why the rest of the "world" called us Albanians. Well we know that Albanians comes from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi who lived in the lands behind Durrës and that medieval Albanians called themselves "Arbër"....ect. history at this point, you were not clear how did we end up with the name of "Shqiptarë".

Well i was not clear either but as i was watching this documentary, the Albanians of Ukraine (which speak a sort of archaic Albanian, not influenced by the whatever influenced our language from the end of 1700 and the start of 1800) the word "shqipton", which we Albanians of Albania translate as "Albanian" (as the language), they used it in the meaning of "understand".

Exp: With the expression "A shqipton si ne" they do not mean as in modern Albanian would had been translated "Do you pronounce it as us" they mean "Do you understand me?/Do you speak my language?".

Which means that the meaning of the word "Shqiptar" is "He who understands (albanian)" and "I am Albanian", "Unë jam Shqiptar" once meant "I understand your language/I'm the same as you".

I hope i've been clear and not written non-sense lol

LeBrok
23-02-12, 01:33
I'm not even remotely accustomed with Albanian, but this makes a lot of sense, and most likely is right Endri. We can find parallel of this verbal logic with Slavs. They call themselves "Slovianie" (the ones who know words), and they call Germans "Niemci" (the ones who don't speak).
I think it was a brilliant observation Endri!

Taranis
23-02-12, 15:02
So to be back to the actual albanian language...

Yes, my apologies. The discussion of Etruscan certainly doesn't belong here, but since the issue keeps popping up, it needed to be addressed.


I was viewing a sorta of documentary about the Albanian minority in Ukraine (near Odessa). Just for the record, they settled there during the first years of the 1800 after having left Albania cause of the pression from the Ottoman Empire. They were from the area of Korça (at least this is what they claim) and first settled in Bulgaria then when Tsar Ekaterina II (if i'm not mistaken) offered them some land near Odessa they moved from Bulgaria and when to Ukraine then part of the Russian Tsardom. Anyway done the preview or the historical facts lets pass to linguistic.

You, Taranis if i'm not mistaken said that were not clear why we, Albanians, called ourselves Shqiptars and why the rest of the "world" called us Albanians. Well we know that Albanians comes from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi who lived in the lands behind Durrës and that medieval Albanians called themselves "Arbër"....ect. history at this point, you were not clear how did we end up with the name of "Shqiptarë".

Indeed, I brought up the case of "Albanian" vs. "Shqiptars" as a quite typical case of an exonym (designation by foreign peoples) vs. endonym (self-designation of a people). I also made the point that the Albanians in Antiquity most likely have designated themselves by a different name. Since there is no equivalent of "Shqiptar" attested (I'd expect a latinized "Scipteri" or a hellenized "Σκιπτεροι"), this seems likely. Of course, if the old Albanians refered to themselves as something akin to "Arbër", this may indeed be the source of the name "Albanoi" recorded in Antiquity.


Well i was not clear either but as i was watching this documentary, the Albanians of Ukraine (which speak a sort of archaic Albanian, not influenced by the whatever influenced our language from the end of 1700 and the start of 1800) the word "shqipton", which we Albanians of Albania translate as "Albanian" (as the language), they used it in the meaning of "understand".

Exp: With the expression "A shqipton si ne" they do not mean as in modern Albanian would had been translated "Do you pronounce it as us" they mean "Do you understand me?/Do you speak my language?".

Which means that the meaning of the word "Shqiptar" is "He who understands (albanian)" and "I am Albanian", "Unë jam Shqiptar" once meant "I understand your language/I'm the same as you".

I hope i've been clear and not written non-sense lol

I'd like to second what LeBrok said, I think that this explanation really makes sense, especially if you draw the parallels to the dichotomy between 'those who speak' and 'those who don't speak' in Slavic.

Endri
23-02-12, 16:21
There is even a book about the differences between the Albanian spoken in Albania and the one spoken by the Albanians in Ukraine. This book was made by an scholar/academic/linguistic (i do not know exactly what he was), Selim Islami, published in 1955 from a visit he made there in autumn 1949 with an Soviet ethnografist, named "Material Gjuhësor nga kolonitë Shqiptare të Ukrainës" (eng:Linguistic material from the Albanian colonies in Ukraine) where he also points the matter of the origin of the name "Shqiptar" and it's possible meaning as the one i explained above (my previous post).

If it's of any importance here is the "documentary" (It's in 2 videos, in Albanian)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFrP25_KJ8U&amp;feature=g-hist&amp;context=G2bb24bbAHT0VEPwAAAA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc3RGzHvYCE&amp;feature=related

PS:This documentary was shoot like 5-6 years ago and the people there still use the expression "A shqipton si ne" or "A po më shqipton" as "Do you understand me".

Brazarabit
24-02-12, 13:37
very interesting thank

Diurpaneus
24-02-12, 14:57
Here is a list of Romanian-Albanian similar words(starting from page 4)

http://www.comunique.ro/img_editor/userfiles/file/KKycyku_Cuvintele_comune_alb_rom.pdf


Also about the connection between Latin "Sclavus", Romanian"Schiau" and Albanian"Squip".

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/28/Slavs_Marginalia_EN.pdf

Romanian - English
ş sh
ce,ci che,chi
che,chi ke,ki
ţ tz
ă e from "longer"

Taranis
25-02-12, 15:06
Here is a list of Romanian-Albanian similar words(starting from page 4)

http://www.comunique.ro/img_editor/userfiles/file/KKycyku_Cuvintele_comune_alb_rom.pdf

Interesting links, thanks for sharing that. One problem with the former list is that it seems to attempt to include all common words of Albanian and Romanian. But, the problem is that this also includes Latin-derived terms (since Romanian is obviously Romance language, and Albanian has a large share of Latin loanwords) such as "plumb" (Latin plumbum), "victorie"/"fitore" (victory), etc. and also words like mascara, minaret, magazine, etc. - this makes the list less useful, because only a part of the words in this list are of Dacian origin (such as "ţap"/"cjap"). Nontheless, this is a good basis for assembling a list.


Also about the connection between Latin "Sclavus", Romanian"Schiau" and Albanian"Squip".

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/28/Slavs_Marginalia_EN.pdf

Romanian - English
ş sh
ce,ci che,chi
che,chi ke,ki
ţ tz
ă e from "longer"

Without going into detail, let me say that I will get back to this paper.

Diurpaneus
27-02-12, 10:10
Albanian-Romanian similar words(from page 4)

http://www.comunique.ro/img_editor/userfiles/file/KKycyku_Cuvintele_comune_alb_rom.pdf

Endri
27-02-12, 17:04
Not to be a party breaker or smth but the majority of those words in Albanian are either of Latin (aer-ajër ; infern – ferr) or Turkish (agă - aga ; işala! - ishalla!) origin.

Also this words are funny: ssst! - shshsht! ; hura! - urra! ; lele! - olele!
Not to mention the numerals: şapte - shtatë (7), şaptezeci - shtatëdhjetë (70)

I do not know what this guy (the one who wrote that study or whatever it can be called) is trying to prove cause this list of common names makes no sense.

mihaitzateo
27-02-12, 19:36
A very strange thing in albanian:
-in albanian you have a letter , dh which is pronounced as th in the english word the
http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dh_(digraph)#D
In icelandic you have a letter for this sound,some kind of D written as Ð ð and which is pronounced as english th in english the.
To make even more weird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth
"Eth (Ð, ð; also spelled edh or eð) is a letter used in Old English, Icelandic, Faroese (in which it is called edd), and Elfdalian. It was also used in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages, but was subsequently replaced with dh and later d, except for Iceland where it survives."

How can this be explained?

Endri
27-02-12, 20:26
A very strange thing in albanian:
-in albanian you have a letter , dh which is pronounced as th in the english word the
http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dh_(digraph)#D
In icelandic you have a letter for this sound,some kind of D written as Ð ð and which is pronounced as english th in english the.
To make even more weird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth
"Eth (Ð, ð; also spelled edh or eð) is a letter used in Old English, Icelandic, Faroese (in which it is called edd), and Elfdalian. It was also used in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages, but was subsequently replaced with dh and later d, except for Iceland where it survives."

How can this be explained?

PIE g*h has turned into albanian dh...whats to explain?

Can you please not ruin this thread with your senseless theories like the one Taranis closed?

Hal Fao
27-02-12, 22:18
Albanian-Romanian similar words(from page 4)

http://www.comunique.ro/img_editor/userfiles/file/KKycyku_Cuvintele_comune_alb_rom.pdf
Welldone.
I think that Illyrian, thracian, Dacian, as well as Etruscan and Rhaetian are close relatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

Endri
27-02-12, 23:28
Welldone.
I think that Illyrian, thracian, Dacian, as well as Etruscan and Rhaetian are close relatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

What well done for gods sake Hal Fao? 90% of those words are of Latin and Turkish origin. The only few and are few Albanian-Daco-Thracian words are in some posts a couple of pages back. Besides them that list is a total BS.

Taranis
27-02-12, 23:48
A very strange thing in albanian:
-in albanian you have a letter , dh which is pronounced as th in the english word the
http://mylanguages.org/albanian_alphabet.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dh_(digraph)#D
In icelandic you have a letter for this sound,some kind of D written as Ð ð and which is pronounced as english th in english the.
To make even more weird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eth
"Eth (Ð, ð; also spelled edh or eð) is a letter used in Old English, Icelandic, Faroese (in which it is called edd), and Elfdalian. It was also used in Scandinavia during the Middle Ages, but was subsequently replaced with dh and later d, except for Iceland where it survives."

How can this be explained?

The modern Albanian orthography (that is, the convention on how to spell things, if you do not know what the term "orthography" means) was only developed in the earliest 20th century. Besides, I have to repeat myself from what I said in the other thread, just because they have the same sound doesn't mean they are related. The Welsh language for example has the sound in question (the voiced dental fricative), too, even though it's spelled "dd" in Welsh. Does that mean Albanian, Icelandic and Welsh are closely related? Obviously not.

as a general rule, /θ/ and /ð/ in the Germanic languages (where they are preserved) corresponds with /t/ in Albanian:

English "mother" - Icelandic "moðir" - Albanian "motër"
English "three" - Icelandic "þrír" - Albanian "tre"


(both sounds are derived from PIE *t)

Conversely, Albanian /ð/ generally corresponds with Germanic /k/ or /g/:

Albanian "dhemb" - German "Kamm", English "comb"
Albanian "dhelpër" - German "gelb", English "yellow" (but compare Anglo-Saxon "geolu")

(the sounds are derived from are PIE *g´ and *g´h)



I think that Illyrian, thracian, Dacian, as well as Etruscan and Rhaetian are close relatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

Except that Etruscan and Rhaetian have nothing to do there, since they were neither Indo-European nor spoken on the Balkans.

Also, there's the general consensus that Albanian is related to the Paleo-Balkan languages, but due to the scarce attestation of all languages, there is no consensus which one Albanian is descended from. I've talked about this in the very first post of this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27011-The-Albanian-language).

8mike
01-04-12, 16:38
can someine give me explanation for this: albanian "buke" means "bread" and Orel derives it from Latin "bucca" meaning "mouth". Why this cannot be derived from phrygian (Tracian maybe connections with illyrian) "bekos" meaning "bread" (and even further PIE *bheHg-)?

ps i am not 100% sure but there are also other albanian words where *e reflected in *u later. i will check and post if i find them

Endri
10-04-12, 21:55
I got reminded by Yetos, thank you for that, of this Albanian word, sorta old and rarely used by the new generations these days, "gjiton" meaning "neigbhour" and mainly used in Southern Albania, from Gjirokastër down to the Greek border and by the Chams and as Yetos reminded this, by the Arvanits too. Other words for neigbhour are "fqinj", probably from Latin (I'm just sayin' probably but not sure) but since i don't know Latin i can only give the Italian equivalent which is "vicino" and the probably Turkish loan one "komshi".

"Gjiton" is an Albanian word, loan word or an derivate word from the Albanian "ngjitur" (very close, very near) (Just an assumption)

Taranis
10-04-12, 23:12
I got reminded by Yetos, thank you for that, of this Albanian word, sorta old and rarely used by the new generations these days, "gjiton" meaning "neigbhour" and mainly used in Southern Albania, from Gjirokastër down to the Greek border and by the Chams and as Yetos reminded this, by the Arvanits too. Other words for neigbhour are "fqinj", probably from Latin (I'm just sayin' probably but not sure) but since i don't know Latin i can only give the Italian equivalent which is "vicino" and the probably Turkish loan one "komshi".

"Gjiton" is an Albanian word, loan word or an derivate word from the Albanian "ngjitur" (very close, very near) (Just an assumption)

Albanian "gjiton" is almost certainly a native word in my opinion, and derived from PIE *gwei- ("to live"), which is also the root of Latin "vita", Greek "bios" and English "quick".

"fqinj" might be from Latin "vicinus" ("neighbour"), but the change *v- > *f- is peculiar.

"komshi" is certainly a Turkic loanword (modern Turkish "komşu").

Yetos
11-04-12, 00:10
Albanian "gjiton" is almost certainly a native word in my opinion, and derived from PIE *gwei- ("to live"), which is also the root of Latin "vita", Greek "bios" and English "quick".

"fqinj" might be from Latin "vicinus" ("neighbour"), but the change *v- > *f- is peculiar.

"komshi" is certainly a Turkic loanword (modern Turkish "komşu").

nope I dont agree,
γειτων geiton

«Ή μεγ’ Αθηναίοισι φόως γένεθ’, ηνίκ΄Αριστογείτων Ίππαρχον κτείναι και Αρμόδιος»

Σιμωνιδης ο Κειος (Simonides)

the word exist in ancient Greek
Νεαρός άνδρας που μαζί με το σύντροφό (http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/σύντροφος) του Αρμόδιο (http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/Αρμόδιος) δολοφόνησαν το 514 π.Χ. για λόγους κυρίως ερωτικής αντιζηλίας (http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/αντιζηλία) και εξαιτίας προσωπικών προσβολών των Πεισιστρατίδη (http://el.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Πεισιστρατίδη&action=edit&redlink=1) τύραννο Ίππαρχο (http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ίππαρχος)

http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/Αριστογείτων

the word means neighbor γειτνια - γειτονια = neighborhood, (γειτνιασις = in the same neghborhood)

I don't know if it is connected with Βιος bios-vios but exist before 500 BC
the name of 1 of Tyrraktonoi Tyrranoktonoi (tyrant Kilers or Tyrrenian killers) is aristogeitOn Αριστογειτων = αριστος+γειτων = good neighbor

the word at least in Greek is connected with gaia γαια (land earth) or keitai κειται (stay lay)
its meaning in Greek is gaia + on γαια +ων the one who lives in the land
or from keitai+on Κειται+ων the one who stay near, the neighbor,
if you want search virb κειμαι and κειτωμαι (compare Κοιτη ποταμου - river bad)
(fabulous tomb sign ενθαδε κειται or κειτονται)

Lysias λυσιας in his epithaph say πολλὰ μὲν καλά καὶ θαυμαστά οἱ πρόγονοι τῶν ἐνθάδε κειμένων ἠργάσαντο,
the word means the one who lay here, who stay her,

so when in Greek we say who is next to you or sleep next to you or eats next to you, we say who is your παρα-κειμενος. in a 3rd person is para-keitontes παρα-κειτοντες so all near me are γειτονες geitones

I think γειτονες γειτονοι geitones geitoni is a shift of Κειτοντες keitontes.


I don't know if the word is PIE but is far ancient in Greek that exists in Homeric meaning mostly lay, rest, and not like βιος βιωνω etc although it might have have same root *gwei but I don't think so, Bios βιος is mostly connected with Avis





I got reminded by Yetos, thank you for that, of this Albanian word, sorta old and rarely used by the new generations these days, "gjiton" meaning "neigbhour" and mainly used in Southern Albania, from Gjirokastër down to the Greek border and by the Chams and as Yetos reminded this, by the Arvanits too. Other words for neigbhour are "fqinj", probably from Latin (I'm just sayin' probably but not sure) but since i don't know Latin i can only give the Italian equivalent which is "vicino" and the probably Turkish loan one "komshi".

no need to thank, searching help all of us, no matter the mistakes we all do.

search for he word Loderne which means music.

Hal Fao
11-04-12, 08:42
Albanian "gjiton" is almost certainly a native word in my opinion, and derived from PIE *gwei- ("to live"), which is also the root of Latin "vita", Greek "bios" and English "quick".

"fqinj" might be from Latin "vicinus" ("neighbour"), but the change *v- > *f- is peculiar.

"komshi" is certainly a Turkic loanword (modern Turkish "komşu").
You're right relating to the Albanian words "fqinj" and "komshi" but I'm afraid you're not for "gjiton".
It's a very ancient word, Yetos is right on that point. Its wordroot is well preserved in Gheg "ghit" (stick, paste) or standard Albanian "ngjit".
"Ghitun" is the participle of "ghit" in Gheg (in standard Albanian "ngjitur").
"E ghituna" (def. adj. noun) literally means "the what is very close to" (I can't find a proper word now).
May be it cognates with "gift".

Taranis
11-04-12, 09:18
You're right relating to the Albanian words "fqinj" and "komshi" but I'm afraid you're not for "gjiton".
It's a very ancient word, Yetos is right on that point.

That statement makes absoluetly no sense: my proposed etymology was that the word is derived from PIE (ie. "native" to it's own language), Yetos proposed that it is a loanword. To say that it is "a very ancient word" in that context makes no sense because the Greek loanword would be obviously younger.


Its wordroot is well preserved in Gheg "ghit" (stick, paste) or standard Albanian "ngjit".
"Ghitun" is the participle of "ghit" in Gheg (in standard Albanian "ngjitur").
"E ghituna" (def. adj. noun) literally means "the what is very close to" (I can't find a proper word now).
May be it cognates with "gift".

Sorry but that makes no sense, you can't equated *g- and *gj- More of your magic word dismantlements? Also, from "to stick" and "to paste" to "neighbour" makes semantically absolutely no sense.

In any case, I think that Yetos' proposed etymology is probably more likely than the one I suggested because it's semantically more sensible.

Yetos
11-04-12, 10:36
That statement makes absoluetly no sense: my proposed etymology was that the word is derived from PIE (ie. "native" to it's own language), Yetos proposed that it is a loanword. To say that it is "a very ancient word" in that context makes no sense because the Greek loanword would be obviously younger.



Sorry but that makes no sense, you can't equated *g- and *gj- More of your magic word dismantlements? Also, from "to stick" and "to paste" to "neighbour" makes semantically absolutely no sense.

In any case, I think that Yetos' proposed etymology is probably more likely than the one I suggested because it's semantically more sensible.



Nope I did not say it is a loan word, I said that it is an ancient word that means I stay next I lay next and not I Live,
my proposal is to find another PIE root than Bios βιος, since the existance of virb Κειμαι does not mean live,
what I mean is the PIE root *gwei as live does not fit with γειτων and gjitun .

But you are right in a point, the existance of γειτων and Gjitun in these 2 language
either means that is a local BalKanic word,
either that is IE word if it is found in another IE language
either that is a borrow-loan word,
the possibility that both are from *gwei but with another meaning I do not know if it stands,

But I am sure that the Greek is Κειτοντες and become γειτων (giton) foolowing inner Greek laws
virb Κειμαι noun κειτων ->γειτων
while Albanian is Giton in Arbanitika and Gjitun as Endri say in Geg Albanian.

I wonder the word-virb lay how is in PIE
or the word Γειωσις geiosis which means stick to ground.

the case of meaning stick to something. fits only with ground, but as next has a meaning of stick,
the next is the closest the one who is 'stick' with me, who is 'bind' to me

Taranis could it be a non IE word?

Hal Fao
11-04-12, 11:50
Nope I did not say it is a loan word, I said that it is an ancient word that means I stay next I lay next and not I Live,
my proposal is to find another PIE root than Bios βιος, since the existance of virb Κειμαι does not mean live,
what I mean is the PIE root *gwei as live does not fit with γειτων and gjitun .

But you are right in a point, the existance of γειτων and Gjitun in these 2 language
either means that is a local BalKanic word,
either that is IE word if it is found in another IE language
either that is a borrow-loan word,
the possibility that both are from *gwei but with another meaning I do not know if it stands,

But I am sure that the Greek is Κειτοντες and become γειτων (giton) foolowing inner Greek laws
virb Κειμαι noun κειτων ->γειτων
while Albanian is Giton in Arbanitika and Gjitun as Endri say in Geg Albanian.

I wonder the word-virb lay how is in PIE
or the word Γειωσις geiosis which means stick to ground.

the case of meaning stick to something. fits only with ground, but as next has a meaning of stick,
the next is the closest the one who is 'stick' with me, who is 'bind' to me

Taranis could it be a non IE word?
I think it's an IE word, may be it comes from PIE *ghedh- "to join, to unite".
As a matter of fact, Albanian "ngjit" means "to stick" or "to join".
The problem is: how is it possible that the Albanian participle of "ghit" ("ghitun" or "gjitun") be similar with γειτων.

Hal Fao
11-04-12, 14:01
There are numerous Greek and Latin words which come to be very much alike with Albanian participles, eg:
“mat” (v) = “measure”, “weigh”;
“matur” = the participle of “mat”;
“i matur” (adj. masc.) = 1- “prudent”; 2- “measured” (adj);
“e matur” (adj. fem.) = 1- “prudent”; 2- “measured” (adj);
“e matura” (def. adj. noun) = 1- “the what is prudent”; 2- “the what is measured”;
“maturi” = “prudence”, “providence”, “caution”;
“maturia” = “the prudence”.
As we can see, the Albanian “maturi” (prudence) does not come from Latin “mature” (ripe).
Here is the Albanian word “pjek” (ripe):
“pjek” = “ripe”;
“pjekur” = the participle of “pjek”;
“i pjekur” (adj.) = “mature”, “ripe”;
“djale i pjekur” = “mature boy”
“pjekuri” = “maturity”, “ripeness”.
At the first sight, there is no relation of Albanian “maturi” (prudence) and latin “mature” (ripe), but their meanings are very much similar.
Well, may be it’s a coincidence. The problem is that such coincidences are more than hundreds, may be thousands.
Can someone explain it?

Endri
11-04-12, 15:25
search for he word Loderne which means music.

No need to, "Loderne" (if it written correctely, but even if it isn't doesn't really matter) would be the equivalent of the modern Albanian "Lodër" (toy), but it is know that the meaning of "lodër" as toy is recent. It's original meaning was "to play", "to dance" or "to sing and dance" at the same time, as mentioned in the Albanian Epos and a lot of myths and such, mainly in it's verb form, "lodrojnë" as "lodrojnë shtojzovallet" or "lodronin vashat nëpër bjeshkë/male" or whatever place you can think off.

Clear with the etymology of "loderne" (?) which most likely is "lodrënë".

And Hal Fao, a loan word cannot be more ancient than a original PIE word...that didn't made any sense at all.

Yetos
11-04-12, 16:45
No need to, "Loderne" (if it written correctely, but even if it isn't doesn't really matter) would be the equivalent of the modern Albanian "Lodër" (toy), but it is know that the meaning of "lodër" as toy is recent. It's original meaning was "to play", "to dance" or "to sing and dance" at the same time, as mentioned in the Albanian Epos and a lot of myths and such, mainly in it's verb form, "lodrojnë" as "lodrojnë shtojzovallet" or "lodronin vashat nëpër bjeshkë/male" or whatever place you can think off.


Clear with the etymology of "loderne" (?) which most likely is "lodrënë".

And Hal Fao, a loan word cannot be more ancient than a original PIE word...that didn't made any sense at all.

you are right, it is Lodrene, I just check it, sorry for writing it wrong


try this

Ljiaese na pergouljia

Do ta press kotsidet gliate

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

Lieto vente (vante) filaki


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie !!!!!

Endri
11-04-12, 18:07
Ljiaese na pergouljia

Do ta press kotsidet gliate

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

Lieto vente (vante) filaki


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie !!!!!

On a first look...

-pergouljia, probably përgojoja (defame)

-Do ta press is exactly as modern Albanian with the only exception that press has one /s/ (pres)

-Kotsided, probably "koqet" (Balls)

-Gliate, which more likely is written Gljate (Cause if after /glj/ is a vocal it becomes /gj/) is the Albanian "gjatë" (long first meaning but in this case has more like the meaning he will cut his balls in lots of pieces)

-The third row is the hardest cause "nte" "tsi" don't make any sense and are weird combination for Albanian as are "Ljiaese", "throuim" and "lioulie", cause I've never seen an Albanian word with three vocals one after another, even 2 is very rare.

-tate is most likely tënde (yours)

-Lieto i guess is a name

-Vente (went) same as modern Albanian though and old and sorta childish form

-filaki probably filani

-bante is the Albanian bënte (did)

-tsoupra either copa (pieces) (ts=c) or thupra (twigs)

-billete, maybe bilet (Balls)


Note: Gjiton or Giton is not Gheg Yetos. It is predominately used from Gjirokastër and below but it is mainly a Tosk word and i know for sure that in the Berat area it was used a lot (at least prior to WWII) since my grandma was born there and she uses that word.

8mike
11-04-12, 20:53
you are right, it is Lodrene, I just check it, sorry for writing it wrong


try this

Ljiaese na pergouljia

Do ta press kotsidet gliate

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

Lieto vente (vante) filaki


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie !!!!!

what is that from?

8mike
11-04-12, 20:55
also i will post this again cause i think nobody saw my post

"can someine give me explanation for this: albanian "buke" means "bread" and Orel derives it from Latin "bucca" meaning "mouth". Why this cannot be derived from phrygian (Tracian maybe connections with illyrian) "bekos" meaning "bread" (and even further PIE *bheHg-)?

ps i am not 100% sure but there are also other albanian words where *e reflected in *u later. i will check and post if i find them"

Yetos
11-04-12, 21:48
also i will post this again cause i think nobody saw my post

"can someine give me explanation for this: albanian "buke" means "bread" and Orel derives it from Latin "bucca" meaning "mouth". Why this cannot be derived from phrygian (Tracian maybe connections with illyrian) "bekos" meaning "bread" (and even further PIE *bheHg-)?

ps i am not 100% sure but there are also other albanian words where *e reflected in *u later. i will check and post if i find them"

Bucca Baker Serbian Pekara Brygian Bekos means something Bread, or a baked a food

DejaVu
11-04-12, 21:56
Albanian "gjiton" is almost certainly a native word in my opinion, and derived from PIE *gwei- ("to live"), which is also the root of Latin "vita", Greek "bios" and English "quick".

"fqinj" might be from Latin "vicinus" ("neighbour"), but the change *v- > *f- is peculiar.

"komshi" is certainly a Turkic loanword (modern Turkish "komşu").

Gjiton native word?
Zitel in Macedonian slavic = Inhabitant
Who is the native here? Supporting something without knowledge is very dangerous.

Yetos
11-04-12, 22:00
On a first look...

-pergouljia, probably përgojoja (defame)

-Do ta press is exactly as modern Albanian with the only exception that press has one /s/ (pres)

-Kotsided, probably "koqet" (Balls)

-Gliate, which more likely is written Gljate (Cause if after /glj/ is a vocal it becomes /gj/) is the Albanian "gjatë" (long first meaning but in this case has more like the meaning he will cut his balls in lots of pieces)

-The third row is the hardest cause "nte" "tsi" don't make any sense and are weird combination for Albanian as are "Ljiaese", "throuim" and "lioulie", cause I've never seen an Albanian word with three vocals one after another, even 2 is very rare.

-tate is most likely tënde (yours)

-Lieto i guess is a name

-Vente (went) same as modern Albanian though and old and sorta childish form

-filaki probably filani

-bante is the Albanian bënte (did)

-tsoupra either copa (pieces) (ts=c) or thupra (twigs)

-billete, maybe bilet (Balls)


Note: Gjiton or Giton is not Gheg Yetos. It is predominately used from Gjirokastër and below but it is mainly a Tosk word and i know for sure that in the Berat area it was used a lot (at least prior to WWII) since my grandma was born there and she uses that word.


ok explanation maybe will help

Arbanitan from 4 islands Ydra island

Ljiaese na perguljia major meaning is you get a bath a wash under the vineyard, or you take a sunbath under a vineyard,
I have seen both translations but more possible is first

Arbanitan of North AThens and Leyktra
do ta press kotsidet gliate, nte tsi throuim nte i tate, Do ta pres kotsidet, lieto vente (vante) filaki
I will cut your big (long) pigtails, but I afraid your father I will cut your pigtails, let me go (even if I have to go) to prison

Kleft Arbanites of Thessaly
bante tsupra te billete lioulie
go girl (lady - miss) to gather flowers

if you can't find I can help you find connection with other non Albanian words or difficult to understand

Taranis
11-04-12, 22:18
Gjiton native word?
Zitel in Macedonian slavic = Inhabitant

I meant "native" in the sense of "native to the Albanian language" (as opposed to borrowed from elsewhere, such as Greek, which Yetos proposed as an etymology for the word). Alternatively you might say that I proposed that the word was derivable from a PIE root via Albanian's own sound laws.

To give you an analogy, the words "cow" and "swine" are native to the English language, but the words "beef" and "porc" are borrowed from French.


Who is the native here? Supporting something without knowledge is very dangerous.

The word "native" has no geographic connotation here at all.

MOESAN
11-04-12, 23:18
or proto-slavic took this word from another source and Albanian form a different one. The original meaning for "brig" is a hill whereas in Albanian now this only means "shore" and nothing else as far as I know. We have the eg. for the word "preug" - prag (Alb).

Albs also have fort (strong) and burg (prison)


in breton (celtic) 'bre' means 'moutain' or 'high hill' and 'briell' means 'bank' (compare 'breg' albanian for "shore") and 'bri' means 'esteem', 'regards', 'admiration' : it is as said Taranis I suppose: not surprising: the meanings of words are broad & moving even if they keep a kind of links within them - height, honour and hill, mountain, bank have all of them a meaning of height -

Hal Fao
12-04-12, 00:48
Gjiton native word?
Zitel in Macedonian slavic = Inhabitant
Who is the native here? Supporting something without knowledge is very dangerous.
It seems as if we're fighting for the native ownership of IE words. It would be ridiculous thinking that way!
All IE peoples are equally its "owners", regardless a certain word appears to be native of.
Such a "danger" perception means ... just to be sorry a lot indeed.

Hal Fao
12-04-12, 13:03
There are numerous Greek and Latin words which come to be very much alike with Albanian participles, eg:
“mat” (v) = “measure”, “weigh”;
“matur” = the participle of “mat”;
“i matur” (adj. masc.) = 1- “prudent”; 2- “measured” (adj);
“e matur” (adj. fem.) = 1- “prudent”; 2- “measured” (adj);
“e matura” (def. adj. noun) = 1- “the what is prudent”; 2- “the what is measured”;
“maturi” = “prudence”, “providence”, “caution”;
“maturia” = “the prudence”.
As we can see, the Albanian “maturi” (prudence) does not come from Latin “mature” (ripe).
Here is the Albanian word “pjek” (ripe):
“pjek” = “ripe”;
“pjekur” = the participle of “pjek”;
“i pjekur” (adj.) = “mature”, “ripe”;
“djale i pjekur” = “mature boy”
“pjekuri” = “maturity”, “ripeness”.
At the first sight, there is no relation of Albanian “maturi” (prudence) and latin “mature” (ripe), but their meanings are very much similar.
Well, may be it’s a coincidence. The problem is that such coincidences are more than hundreds, may be thousands.
Can someone explain it?
Taranis, is it really hard for you to grasp it?
Well, here are some other words just to show you what I mean:


Albanian word

Albanian participle

Latin word



Kry/kre = 1- head; 2- do consciously

Kryer /krier/

Crear/e



Struk = to hide (from enemies or atmospheric agents, esp. into a cave)

Strukur /strukur/

Structur/a



Ze/zë = occupy, posses, catch

Zonë (zënë) /zon/

Zon/a



Kënd/oj = sing

kënduar

cantare



Lëshoj = release (original word: lë/le = let)

lëshuar

lashare



Rrufe = Levin;
Rrëfej = confess, tell, show

rrëfyer

referre

Taranis
12-04-12, 13:38
Taranis, is it really hard for you to grasp it?

Well, what am I supposed to say? It's not hard to grasp that you are obviously biased in your opinion and you already have a foregone conclusion: that Albanian is a pure, ancient language, virtually unchanged for thousands of years and that Latin, Greek, etc. etc. all borrowed from Albanian which is the "mother of all languages"? That's pure nonsense, and my opinion doesn't change from the 'evidence' that you post.


Well, here are some other words just to show you what I mean:


Albanian word
Albanian participle
Latin word


Kry/kre = 1- head; 2- do consciously
Kryer /krier/
Crear/e


Struk = to hide (from enemies or atmospheric agents, esp. into a cave)
Strukur /strukur/
Structur/a


Ze/zë = occupy, posses, catch
Zonë (zënë) /zon/
Zon/a


Kënd/oj = sing
kënduar
cantare


Lëshoj = release (original word: lë/le = let)
lëshuar
lashare


Rrufe = Levin;
Rrëfej = confess, tell, show
rrëfyer
referre




On a purely theoretical level, how likely is it that Latin, a language that is already attested from the 7th century BC, and which eventually gave rise to an entire language family (the Romance languages, which are attested from the Medieval Ages onward as separate languages), is supposed to have borrowed from a modern language?! I would say, the chances are none.

Also:

- "lashare" is not a Latin word.

- "referre" is obviously derived from the word "ferre" ("to bear", to "carry"), with the prefix "re-". There's many other Latin words which are formed with prefixes from "ferre": adferre, conferre, inferre, offerre, sufferre, transferre.

- "zona" is a loanword from Greek, from ζωνη ("zōnē"). Latin doesn't have a native *z sound.

Endri
12-04-12, 15:44
ok explanation maybe will help

Arbanitan from 4 islands Ydra island

Ljiaese na perguljia major meaning is you get a bath a wash under the vineyard, or you take a sunbath under a vineyard,
I have seen both translations but more possible is first

This text still makes no sense to me... (in the meaning that I know no similar Albanian words similar to those)


Arbanitan of North AThens and Leyktra
do ta press kotsidet gliate, nte tsi throuim nte i tate, Do ta pres kotsidet, lieto vente (vante) filaki
I will cut your big (long) pigtails, but I afraid your father I will cut your pigtails, let me go (even if I have to go) to prison

Kotsidet, throuim, and filaki make no sense again. Vente in that meaning there is weird, cause in modern Albanian, vente is third person singular so it cant be translated "let me". Vante is Gheg version and that /a/ is a nasal /a/ (correctly written it should have a cap on like this ^ but above the /a/).

For Tate i took the wild guess meaning yours (the most used versions), but in middle Albania (between Shkumbin and Mat) especially in Tirana dialect they still use it for dad (who still speaks in dialect), and is very common in Tirana traditional/popular (popular, not famous but people songs) songs


Kleft Arbanites of Thessaly
bante tsupra te billete lioulie
go girl (lady - miss) to gather flowers

Bante is weird in that meaning, and I'm sure is modern Albanian Bënte (modern Gheg-Bante with the cap /a/). Tsupra still the wrong guess by me. Modern Albanian equivalent is Çupa (tshupa since ts is the albanian c and tsh is ç). Billete similar word to Albanian would be mbledh. Maybe are the same word, maybe not. Lioulie is weird cause it has 3 vocals but if it really means flowers, Albanian would be "lule".

Yetos
12-04-12, 16:50
This text still makes no sense to me... (in the meaning that I know no similar Albanian words similar to those)



Kotsidet, throuim, and filaki make no sense again. Vente in that meaning there is weird, cause in modern Albanian, vente is third person singular so it cant be translated "let me". Vante is Gheg version and that /a/ is a nasal /a/ (correctly written it should have a cap on like this ^ but above the /a/).

For Tate i took the wild guess meaning yours (the most used versions), but in middle Albania (between Shkumbin and Mat) especially in Tirana dialect they still use it for dad (who still speaks in dialect), and is very common in Tirana traditional/popular (popular, not famous but people songs) songs



Bante is weird in that meaning, and I'm sure is modern Albanian Bënte (modern Gheg-Bante with the cap /a/). Tsupra still the wrong guess by me. Modern Albanian equivalent is Çupa (tshupa since ts is the albanian c and tsh is ç). Billete similar word to Albanian would be mbledh. Maybe are the same word, maybe not. Lioulie is weird cause it has 3 vocals but if it really means flowers, Albanian would be "lule".

correct
lets take them one by one

kesi
12-04-12, 17:38
you are right, it is Lodrene, I just check it, sorry for writing it wrong


try this

Ljiaese na pergouljia

Do ta press kotsidet gliate

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

Lieto vente (vante) filaki


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie !!!!!

seems these are mixed Alb/Greek words written by a non-Alb

let me try:

Ljiaese na pergouljia - laheshe ne (pergoulja-i guess this is Greek word) - washed under ...

Do ta press kotsidet gliate - do ta pres gershetin e gjate - I will cut your long pony tail hair

nte tsi throuim nte i tate - por qe turpem nga yt ate - but I am afraid of your father

Lieto vente (vante) filaki - ??? this I do not understand


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie - vente cupa te mblidhte lule - the girl went to pick flowers

8mike
13-04-12, 20:39
Bucca Baker Serbian Pekara Brygian Bekos means something Bread, or a baked a food
That is not the answer to what i asked.

8mike
13-04-12, 20:49
seems these are mixed Alb/Greek words written by a non-Alb

let me try:

Ljiaese na pergouljia - laheshe ne (pergoulja-i guess this is Greek word) - washed under ...

Do ta press kotsidet gliate - do ta pres gershetin e gjate - I will cut your long pony tail hair

nte tsi throuim nte i tate - por qe turpem nga yt ate - but I am afraid of your father

Lieto vente (vante) filaki - ??? this I do not understand


bante tsoupra te billete lioulie - vente cupa te mblidhte lule - the girl went to pick flowers
pjergull means "hardhi" or grapevine, exists in albanian

Yetos
13-04-12, 21:01
That is not the answer to what i asked.

If you know the answer why you ask?

8mike
13-04-12, 21:09
If you know the answer why you ask?
i asked why Orel's etymology was right, you responded with words from other languages without saying anything else

Yetos
13-04-12, 21:22
i asked why Orel's etymology was right, you responded with words from other languages without saying anything else

I see your point, and I gave you the answer,
If you want to search more ask for Grim's laws

Endri
13-04-12, 23:08
pjergull means "hardhi" or grapevine, exists in albanian

I had never heard "pjergull" till now, but I asked and apparently it exist as a word, among "hardhi" and "vreshta", all meaning "grapevine". Though, at least "pjergull" and "vreshta" show different types of "grapevine".

Any one has any idea of the origin of this 3 words which basically mean the same thing?

kesi
14-04-12, 00:08
pjergull means "hardhi" or grapevine, exists in albanian

yes, it's true - pjergull of course exists with the meaning you mention. it's just that the way the words are written make them look Greek or some other language.

FBS
14-04-12, 02:03
Pjergulla e rrushit is pergola of grapevine, vreshta/vneshta is vineyard, hardhi e rrushit is grapevine. There is one more name in use in Kosova, gixha e rrushit which I do not know how to translate.

Yetos
14-04-12, 08:52
Pjergulla e rrushit is pergola of grapevine, vreshta/vneshta is vineyard, hardhi e rrushit is grapevine. There is one more name in use in Kosova, grigja e rrushit which I do not know how to translate.

correct pergola. and is not Greek.

the word is imported in Greek, exist only in Athens, so it is imported by arbanites in modern Greek,
the Greek word is κληματαρια σκαλωσια, klimataria and skalosia are after words κλιμαξ (stairs) and scale -Scala(stair step, Aromani and Byzantine word), skalosia could also be imported, since original Greek is Βαθμις Vathmis-Bathmis

so how the word Pergola pass in Albanian language? or it is native to that language?

Yetos
14-04-12, 08:59
yes, it's true - pjergull of course exists with the meaning you mention. it's just that the way the words are written make them look Greek or some other language.

the words are written in Greek alphabet, by arbanites them selfs, some mistakes maybe are from my personal effort to write them in Latin alphabet, and I don't deny that, if I write them in Greek I do not know how many would understand it, that is why I wrote down the meaning in English in post #216, so to be easy to compare.


would it be easy to you? if I wrοte
λ(z)ιαεσε να περγκουλ(z)ια


or the one I wrote, with english meaning,


PS
when we write down the vocabulary of language-dialect, Science tell us that we must write down the exact sounds as they exist, and not as they should be in comparison,
so the writing down of Arbanitika since 1700 (much before Greek revolt) is in Greek mainly, and Francais
then we try to connect it with other known languages and dialects.

Yetos
14-04-12, 09:45
ok lets see, first

ljiaese na perguljia
in Greek alphabet
λιαεσε να περγκουλια (λζιαεσε να περγκουλζια)
you take a bath-shower under the pergola
or you take a sunbath under the pergola

the phrase is after an Arbanitan song from about 1800 of around Hydra area so the most possible is the first meaning
lets compare with Greek
λουεσαι στην περγκολα louese stin pergkola you take a bath under pergola
λιαζεσαι στην περγολα liazese stin pergola you take a sunbath at pergola

now if Kessi's liahese is the correct in Albanian what we see?
the word louese liaese liahese (Gr Arb Alb) is the same,
pergola seems to be imported to Both from Latin (maybe I am wrong)
so the only difference is Greek στην or υπο with Albanian na which seems to prevail in Arbanitan Speech

kesi
14-04-12, 10:47
what is the root of the word "louese"?

laheshe - means "you washed"
root in Alb is: laj - wash

Laj is pronounced as the English word: lie

Yetos
14-04-12, 12:03
what is the root of the word "louese"?

laheshe - means "you washed"
root in Alb is: laj - wash

Laj is pronounced as the English word: lie


virb present
active λουω fut λουσω λουζω
passive λου-ομαι ( I am washing my shelf, I am having a bath)
second person present Λουεσαι -louese, Luese

the case of Lysios river , Lydias river, show that in early Greek it was λυομαι (short ou)
similar is Celtic Lindos = beautifull, attractive
so the most ancient root in Greek is Λυ a sound among li and lu

I do not know the *PIE form

8mike
14-04-12, 12:14
virb present
active λουω fut λουσω λουζω
passive λου-ομαι ( I am washing my shelf, I am having a bath)
second person present Λουεσαι -louese, Luese

the case of Lysios river , Lydias river, show that in early Greek it was λυομαι (short ou)
similar is Celtic Lindos = beautifull, attractive
so the most ancient root in Greek is Λυ a sound among li and lu

I do not know the *PIE form

PIE root is *lewh₃-

Endri
14-04-12, 16:02
Yetos, I still haven't figured out what you're tryin' to prove or say but the sun cannot be covered with hay. It is as clear as it can get that Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect. Only cause these Arvanits are ashamed (or think to high of themselves) to be of Albanian origin does not mean they are not. The truth is the truth, ugly or beautiful it is what it is.

Yetos
14-04-12, 18:39
Yetos, I still haven't figured out what you're tryin' to prove or say but the sun cannot be covered with hay. It is as clear as it can get that Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect. Only cause these Arvanits are ashamed (or think to high of themselves) to be of Albanian origin does not mean they are not. The truth is the truth, ugly or beautiful it is what it is.


ok lets see another phrase

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

but I am afraid of your father.

8mike
14-04-12, 22:30
ok lets see another phrase

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

but I am afraid of your father.

"throuim" is supposed to be "trembi"? looks like a fusion between "trembi" and "trauma"

Yetos
15-04-12, 04:38
"throuim" is supposed to be "trembi"? looks like a fusion between "trembi" and "trauma"

semi correct trembi and tromos τρομος (terror-fear)
what about tate = dead?

kesi
15-04-12, 12:16
ok lets see another phrase

nte tsi throuim nte i tate

but I am afraid of your father.

no such a word as "throuim" exists, it's just the rendering of the Alb/Arvanite word "turpem" by a person who does not understand Albanian language.

nte tsi throuim nte i tate - Arvanite
(por) qi turperm nga yt ate -Albanian
(but) that I am ashamed/afraid of your father - English

Albanian "turp" means=shame
In Arvanite it also means "fear, shame"

Being that Arvanite is Albanian language, Arvanite is NOT mutually understandable by both Greeks and Albanians. A Greek can understand only the Greek words used by Arvanites in their speech or words shared by both Greek/Alb language.

Let me go back to the first phrase that Yetos brought.

ljiaese na perguljia - how a Greek writes a sentence heard from an Arvanite speech
laheshe ne pjergulla - how an Albanian renders what he hears from an Arvanite speech
louse ? ? - how a Greek can understand from this sentence, assuming that he may mistake the Alb word "laheshe" with the Greek "louse" due to similarity (though the two are different words)

Endri
15-04-12, 12:43
semi correct trembi and tromos τρομος (terror-fear)
what about tate = dead?

Where have you found "tate" as dead?

In that sentence, where "tate" means "father", Albanian words for "father" would be "baba", "atë" and "tate" (written exactly as you have written the Arvanit word).

This is a song were the word "tate" is used so many times (meaning father) that you have to be deaf not to notice it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAMtbajL57w

So Yetos, I'm asking you again, what are you tryin' to say (or prove)? It is clear that Arvanit is Albanian.

kesi
15-04-12, 13:26
Most of the sentences brought by Yetos are taken from a well known song in Arvanite but popular with Albanians too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXvtLb7GkOQ

Here are the lyrics (they may change slightly with the different versions of the song, some phrases added some omitted)

Do ta pres do ta pres – I will cut
(Do ta pres do ta pres - Alb)
Do ta pres kocidhete – I will cut your pony tail (kocidhete –Greek word for Alb “gershet”-pony tail)
(Do ta pres gershetin - Alb)
Do ta pres kocidhete – same
Do ta rrevit ga s’gjindete – I will throw where it cannot be found
(Do ta vervit nga s'gjindet) - Alb

Do ta pres do ta pres - I will cut
Do ta pres kocidhete t’gljate – I will the long pony tail
(do ta pres gershetin e gjate-Alb)
Por qe trupem nga it ate – but I am afraid of your father
(por qe turpem/trembem nga yt ate-Alb)

Do ta pres do ta pres – I will cut
Do ta pres kocidhe zi – I will cut the black pony tail hair
(Do ta pres gershetin e zi -Alb)
Do ta pres kocidhe zi - same
Le te vete filaki – though I will go to prison (filaki Greek word for prison)
(le te vete ne burg-Alb)

Shkova nje me nat atje – One night I went there
(shkova nje nate atje-Alb)
Ljahjeshe ne pergule – you were washing (taking a bath) under the pergola
(laheshe ne pjergulla-Alb)
Ljaheshe dhe krihjeshe – washing and combing your hair
(laheshe dhe kriheshe-Alb)
Ljaheshe dhe krihjeshe-same
Me tat eme ziheshe – with your mother you were fighting
(me tet eme ziheshe-Alb)

Ziheshe ? - you fought and ? (I don’t get the word used here)
Se doje te martoneshe – cause you wanted to get married
(se doje te martoheshe-Alb)

Endri
15-04-12, 14:25
Which brings the next question...Yetos, where did you find the text you wrote cause honestly it seems like you heard the song (or different songs) and tried to write what you heard, using Greek equivalent letters. If you used Greek equivalent letters instead of Albanins, you should have told us that they were the Greek equivalent, and not let us reading the Greek equivalent letters like in Albanian, cause on offense, how the hell you ended up from this:

"Por qi trupem nga it atë" to this "nte tsi throuim nte i tate" and in this case "i tate" is "it atë(yt atë, northern Tosk, it atë Southern Tosk (Gjirokastër, Cham and Arvanitika)".

No offense but your knowledge in Albanian are basically, basic. I cannot figure out how you take the courage to discuss, and in this case write in an language you don't even know about, even more in dialect which needs a near mother tongue level of comprehension and difference of the sounds (if you wrote the text, if not please provide us with a link of the site you found them, preferably the site to be in English too)

To me, that song, hearing it for the first time, besides the end, where i think he spoke or said Greek words, was totally understable in 99%, in contrast to your text which seemed like a "Alien Language".