PDA

View Full Version : Are Austrians the same as Germans ??



Robert22
14-11-11, 00:03
Hello have a question. Some people say that Austrians are ethnically the same as Germans. But when i look at the Haplogroup page i see differences between Austrians and Germans.



Region/Haplogroup



I1



I2a



I2b



R1a



R1b



G2a



J2



J1



E1b1b



T



Q



N1c1



Austria



12



6



2



26



23



8



12



0



9



1



0.5



0.5



Croatia



8



42



1



29



8



1



3.5



0



6



1.5



0



0



Czech Republic



11



9



4



34



22



5



6



0



6



1



1.5



0.5



Germany



16



1.5



4.5



16



44.5



5



4.5



0



5.5



1



0.5



1



North Germany





18.5



0.5



7.5



22



36



3.5



4



0.5



2.5



1



2



1.5



East Germany





16.5



1.5



5



24



36



4



2



0



7.5



1



1



1



West Germany





12.5



2.5



6.5



9



47



5



5



0



8



1.5



0.5



2



South Germany





10.5



4.5



3



9.5



48.5



8



5.5



1



8



1.5



0.5



0.5



Hungary



8



15



2.5



32.5



17



5



7



0



9.5



1



1



1



Slovakia



6



10



1



42



23



1



4



0



9



1



2.5



0.5



Slovenia



9.5



22



2



34.5



23.5



1.5



3



1



3



0



0



0



Switzerland



12



1.5



4.5



8



48



8



6



1



9



0.5



1.5



0







So are Austrians their own ethnic group ?

Knovas
14-11-11, 00:18
Of course they are not the same in average, although haplogroups are not the most reliable indicator to know it. For the moment there's lack of Austrian samples, but probably something will come out soon as Dodecad achieves, at least, 5 Austrians to show the average.

But Germans aren't homogeneous as group, there's not a modal German in genetic terms. The German portrait from the Dodecad project, show significant variations from North to South in regards for this population. So even Germans are not the same between each other, and some of them are surely very similar to Austrians. I don't have any doubt about this.

Sile
14-11-11, 08:50
There where no Austrians until 998AD, they where Bavarians and spoke the bavarian language. In ancient times, they where the Rhaetians, Gallic tribes of carni, taurisci and Norici and Osi IIRC. In the Barbarian invasion , the Rugii tribe from the baltic sea settled there as well as goths, huns , avars and some lombards..............I definetly left a lot of tribes out

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Bavarian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugii

The only Hg which seems slight different from Germany is the high J2

Robert22
14-11-11, 17:49
There are many similarities between Austrians and Germans, especially in southern Germany.
But Norh Germans do look a bit different from Austrians.
In Burgenland there are some Hungarian and croatian influences
In Carinthia there are some slovenians.


But does Austria count as own ethnic group, like Bosnians are a own ethnic group, but from their appereance they resemlbe Serbians or Croats. And is Austria also its own ethnic group or are they just Germans.

Knovas
14-11-11, 18:30
I don't know much about the Austrian history but, considering its geographical place, my impression is that they are a mix of several ethnic groups, being the Germanic influence the most dominant. So it's more apropriate to call them "population", and we avoid twisting things.

For the little I know about Swiss results (very similar), they appear to be a mix of many different ethnicities, and I don't expect the average Austrians to be incredibly different.

However, I insist: we need more samples.

Jacker22
14-11-11, 21:36
Austrians long ago might have been Germans but now they are more Slavic than German.

Robert22
14-11-11, 22:07
Well we are not that extremly slavic. But i agree there is more slawic influence here than in Germany. IIRC Slaws settled once in Austria, there are also the Romans, later the Germans came. Also we were a Multicultural Empire once and still we border on Slovenia, Hungary etc. So i think Austrians are rather a mix of various ethnics, rather than true German or Germanic. Atleast in the southern regions of Austria i think there is much more Slavic influence than in Germany.
There are many peoples here in my region who are not typically German or germanic, they more resemble slavics. Also Blondes with blue eyes are relativly seldom, in Northern Germany they are much more common.

sparkey
14-11-11, 22:18
Austrians long ago might have been Germans but now they are more Slavic than German.

IMHO a good indicator of the relative proportion of Germanic vs. Slavic influence in Austria is the I1 : I2a-Din ratio, as both are contained in similar proportions in their parent ethnicities and are generally strongly linked to those ethnicities. The small sample size currently yields about a 2:1 ratio, maybe a bit higher since not all I2a1/I2b/I2c is I2a-Din (although a lot of it is going to be in Austria). That matches my expectations of Austrians being more Germanic in heritage than Slavic. Their modern ethnicity is more influenced by Germans as well, as indicated by their language.

Taranis
14-11-11, 22:26
Well we are not that extremly slavic. But i agree there is more slawic influence here than in Germany. IIRC Slaws settled once in Austria, there are also the Romans, later the Germans came. Also we were a Multicultural Empire once and still we border on Slovenia, Hungary etc. So i think Austrians are rather a mix of various ethnics, rather than true German or Germanic. Atleast in the southern regions of Austria i think there is much more Slavic influence than in Germany.
There are many peoples here in my region who are not typically German or germanic, they more resemble slavics. Also Blondes with blue eyes are relativly seldom, in Northern Germany they are much more common.

Regarding Slavic influence, I must disagree. Eastern Germany has a much larger influence there. Large parts of the eastern part of Germany - east of the Elbe and Saale rivers, and in the north as far west as parts of Schleswig-Holstein, were settled by Slavic tribes at the start of the Medieval Ages. As you may know, a distinct West Slavic language, Sorbian, is also still vestigially spoken today in the area of Lusatia. In must of these areas, you can find town names which have distinctly Slavic origin (notably "Lübeck" and "Chemnitz", to pick a few names). You don't find as many Slavic town names in Austria as you do in eastern Germany.

In any case, I find the idea that Austrians are that distinct from Germans somewhat silly, given the intermingled history. You might argue that Austria's separate history really only starts during the Napoleonic Wars, when the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved, and the former Holy Roman Emperor, Francis II., declared himself as 'Emperor of Austria'. As others pointed out, Germany has a north-south gradient and Austria fits in with southern Germany. Austrian is part of the south German dialect continuum (specfically with Bavarian), and Austria started out as part of the stem duchy of Bavaria at the start of the medieval Ages. The Bavarians (Bajuvarii = "Boii Men" or "Boii warriors") in turn were originally from Bohemia (Boii home), and possibly formed from the remnants of the Marcomanni. The Marcomanni in turn were a Germanic tribe who conquered the Celtic Boii (in Bohemia) in the 1st century BC. Now the area of Austria was inhabited by a different Celtic people, the Norici, and they were conquered by the Romans in the late 1st century BC.

Robert22
14-11-11, 22:53
but then again even the slovenian Main city is called Laibach, the slovenians call it Ljubljana . But Leibnitz sounds a bit slawic to me. Graz has slawic origins, Garanas and Ossiach are slawic aswell. And i am sure there are cities or villages which have some slawic origin.
And in Southern Austria ( Carnithia for example ) there are many many slawic sounding village names: Woschte, Tomk,Sapotnitza, Dovjak, Drazjavas, Globasnitz, Soboth. Graz has also slawicorigin.
In southrtn Carinthia and Burgenland the city signs are often bilingiual.

Mzungu mchagga
14-11-11, 23:25
Also "Berlin" derives from the Slavic syllable 'berl', meaning "swamp".

zanipolo
15-11-11, 00:07
The slavs got into east germans lands was only around 700AD due to the previous centuries departures of east german tribes in the barbarian invasion of the Roman Empire, the burgundians, goths, vandals, rugii, longbards, heruli, Quadi , etc etc etc

Robert22
15-11-11, 00:09
Ok.
But is Austria now just a nationality, or are they also a ethnic group. many say the ethnicy Austrians is just a invention.

zanipolo
15-11-11, 00:10
Also "Berlin" derives from the Slavic syllable 'berl', meaning "swamp".

The bear on the berlin flag as I was told represents the slavs, below is the old name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B6lln

Mzungu mchagga
15-11-11, 10:47
The bear on the berlin flag as I was told represents the slavs, below is the old name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cölln

A common misconception is that the word Berlin derives from "bear". But in fact, the bear emblem has nothing to do with it's name.
Cölln was a separate town in the middle ages and later merged with Berlin. In contrast to Berlin it was founded by colonists, who came from Netherlands, Rhineland and Franconia during the "East Colonisation". In the 17th and 18th century Berlin was even 1/3 French (Huguenotts). When you look at the surenames of local people today, it is an interesting mixture of German, Slavic, French and Dutch names.

Taranis
15-11-11, 16:37
Ok.
But is Austria now just a nationality, or are they also a ethnic group. many say the ethnicy Austrians is just a invention.

I would say, it's not so much an 'invention' but a product of relatively recent history (the past 200 years). Let's take a closer look at this:

- Austria shares a common linguistic origin with the Bavarians.
- The Habsburgs were, over longer stretches of time, the dominant power inside the Holy Roman Empire, and large areas of land which lie today within Germany or the Benelux countries were once technically part of Austria.
- As I mentioned before, the last Holy Roman emperor was a Habsburger.
- Austria was, due to the Austrian-Prussian rivalry (and due to the fact that by then it was a multi-ethnic empire) excluded from the German reunification.
- At the end of World War I, the rump Austrian state was prohibited from (re-)unifying with Germany.
- On the eve of World War II, Austria was de-facto annexed by Nazi Germany, and for the Allies, it was without debate to reverse this after the war.
- After World War II, Austrian national identity was heavily boosted in order to distantiate themselves from the Nazis (though there are reasons you might consider this a little bit ironic).
- By 1990, when the two Germanies reunified at the end of the Cold War, nobody on either side even raised the suggestion of a (re-)unification with Austria.

As you can see, the best way to describe this is a gradual process over the past 200 years. Had history happened differently, who knows?

Robert22
15-11-11, 17:13
So you say that the own Austrian ethnicy doesnt really exists, as we are Bavarians.

Taranis
15-11-11, 17:56
So you say that the own Austrian ethnicy doesnt really exists, as we are Bavarians.

Well, what I said applies for Austria within it's current boundaries. If you go back, the situation looks quite a bit different: at one time, Austria stretched quite a bit across the dialect continuum and incorpororated German-speaing ethnicities of quite different origins (Sudetenland, Silesia, Transylvanian Saxons). None of these are considered Austrians today.

Robert22
15-11-11, 18:13
But i dont really get why Austrian Y-DNA haplogroup is relativly different from the German average. Maybe its the lack fo samples as Knovas said ? Do you think with more Austrian samples it would lpook different ?

Taranis
15-11-11, 19:04
But i dont really get why Austrian Y-DNA haplogroup is relativly different from the German average. Maybe its the lack fo samples as Knovas said ? Do you think with more Austrian samples it would lpook different ?

Well, consider that genetics knows know boundaries and you have differences everywhere. So Austria lies pretty much within the spectrum of the surrounding areas. I do believe however that the lack of samples is a problem. Maciamo has marked Austria in his database with 2 stars, which means that it includes between 100 and 250 samples. This is too little to make reliable statements about the Haplogroup frequencies because the margin of error is too great.

ElHorsto
15-11-11, 19:13
...
There are many peoples here in my region who are not typically German or germanic, they more resemble slavics. Also Blondes with blue eyes are relativly seldom, in Northern Germany they are much more common.

South Germans (Bavarians, Rhinelanders) look much more dark than North-Germans, but this fits rather well to the celto-roman history of these regions rather than slavs. Northern Germany is actually the part of Germany with more slavic history than the south.
Also if you compare an average pole to an average bulgarian you'll see strong differences in colors. Maybe austrians have similar slavic influence like northern-germany, just probably more from natives or balkan-slavs rather than from baltic slavs like poles and russians.

Knovas
15-11-11, 19:31
When I mentioned the lack of samples, I specially refered to the autosomal projects (Dodecad and Eurogenes). As I said, the most similar admixture proportions I know, come from a Swiss girl and a Southern German listed between the "Mixed Germanic" samples.

Don't trust too much in the haplogroup frequencies, since most times autosomal results are fairly different than expected based on this. And of course, the Austrian figures here in Eupedia come from a tiny number of samples, one more reason to be prudent.

zanipolo
15-11-11, 21:17
I would say, it's not so much an 'invention' but a product of relatively recent history (the past 200 years). Let's take a closer look at this:

- Austria shares a common linguistic origin with the Bavarians.
- The Habsburgs were, over longer stretches of time, the dominant power inside the Holy Roman Empire, and large areas of land which lie today within Germany or the Benelux countries were once technically part of Austria.
- As I mentioned before, the last Holy Roman emperor was a Habsburger.
- Austria was, due to the Austrian-Prussian rivalry (and due to the fact that by then it was a multi-ethnic empire) excluded from the German reunification.
- At the end of World War I, the rump Austrian state was prohibited from (re-)unifying with Germany.
- On the eve of World War II, Austria was de-facto annexed by Nazi Germany, and for the Allies, it was without debate to reverse this after the war.
- After World War II, Austrian national identity was heavily boosted in order to distantiate themselves from the Nazis (though there are reasons you might consider this a little bit ironic).
- By 1990, when the two Germanies reunified at the end of the Cold War, nobody on either side even raised the suggestion of a (re-)unification with Austria.

As you can see, the best way to describe this is a gradual process over the past 200 years. Had history happened differently, who knows?

then how correct is this article, which leads to some some of Austrian national unity form the Boii.
Note: although the rugii are mentioned , it seems to exclude their original homelnad, but only there settled homeland of austria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarii


more tests that influence the austrians
http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/ergolding.html

MOESAN
16-11-11, 01:29
Of course they are not the same in average, although haplogroups are not the most reliable indicator to know it. For the moment there's lack of Austrian samples, but probably something will come out soon as Dodecad achieves, at least, 5 Austrians to show the average.

But Germans aren't homogeneous as group, there's not a modal German in genetic terms. The German portrait from the Dodecad project, show significant variations from North to South in regards for this population. So even Germans are not the same between each other, and some of them are surely very similar to Austrians. I don't have any doubt about this.

maybe there is a confusion in this question between Germans of today Deutschland and the previous Germanic people of Proto-History or Antiquity? for me old Germanics was not a pure race but they was an homogenous enough ethny without too big regional differences - Today Deutschland is a mixture of a lot of ancien cultures and ethnies put together, and that explains in part the differences between North and South Germany.

Robert22
17-11-11, 14:11
I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

Knovas
17-11-11, 16:07
As I said, is much better to call them population instead of ethnic group. But genetic projects consider them apart, if this is helpful for you.

Mzungu mchagga
17-11-11, 21:49
I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

Maybe you should read the definition of "ethnic group" first, and then you can decide on your own!
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

To give you my personal opinion about it, until the end of WWII Austrians were Germans of Austrian nationality. After WWII Austrians, as well as most Germans, consider Austrians as an own ethnic group.
If you want to base ethnicity on austosmal DNA only and count Austrians as a distinct ethnic group, then also North and South Germans would both form their own.

zanipolo
18-11-11, 07:02
I would say that IMO, in the 20th century, the western part of austria, vasicaly from Innsbruck to switzerland would have been the "authentic" austrians, some call them tylonese, while from innsbruck to Vienna would have been a very mixed people.
It would be interesting to find out the DNA between western and eastern austria

MOESAN
18-11-11, 20:17
I still dont know wheater Austria counts as own ethnic group or not...

I depends of what one put under the world 'ethnicity' - for the present days Austrian, sure the most of them consider themselves as Austrian and no more nor less, it should be interesting asking them, not?
as a whole, the Austrians are heirs (heritiers?) of a complicated history, that did not differenciate them to much from modern Bavarians -(only a bit more remnants of Neolithic peasants?) in details it would be some differences, but they were 'erased' by History: so 'Southern Germans' could be convenient as an ethnic naming for some people.
But in reality, the Austrio-Hungarian empire had left some reliefs in the Eastern Population (Wien) and in the Carinthia were ethnic Slovenes and Croatians were incorporated or taken their lands from them by Austria. For I know, when I see to their names, as a whole I find about 20% of non-germanic surnames, that 's very heavy (only a 6-8% of polish names in Germany, before the arriving of the Turks)! the majority of these 20% are Czech (Western slavic) names and Hungarian (Magyar) names, and a few southern slavic names (not so much outside of southern districts) - i did not a "survey" but on some 400 names of the whole country I found some evidently Czech names adspelled according the germanic spelling rules: people infiltred in Austrian before the empire? - By the same phenomenon of 'osmose' on the other side, Czechs and Hungarians present some germanic names (respelled sometimes too, as also in Poland, with slavic spellings) -
in a collection of about 200 austrian faces I found sometime very exotic visages, with some taste of a somewhat very light asiatic ('brutal' mongoloïd) component. As much or very close to what you can find among Hungarians (seldom in every case). I was told that in the Northwestern islands of Croatia there are some 'mongoloid' genes too. these rare influences by the side, I find Austrian people presents a non surpriising mixture of these phenotypes (in a sort of order of weight): 'nordic', 'alpine', 'dinaric', 'borreby' and unclear 'mediterranean' features (evidently the mixed faces are the commonest!)- more 'dinaric' in Tyrol, more 'brunets' in Tyrol, more 'nordics' in the Center. Picture taken on surface...

Eldritch
21-12-13, 11:24
They have a bit more Neolithic influence to be similar to Germans.

Vedun
29-05-14, 22:02
Austrians are a nation which was established on the roots of Bavarians and Karantanians (old Slovenes). This is visible from their surnames and folklore (krampus for example). Some of their Austrian poets, writers and other academians want to standardize the literal Austrian language to give it the status of an independent language world wide. For example; in German there are Brötchen, but in Austrian, they know Semmeln. Or in German there is ein Junge, but in Austrian there is Bub (Poba, Pobalin in Slovene).

die Kaisersemmel ("Kaiserbrötchen")

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Kaisersemmel-.jpg/660px-Kaisersemmel-.jpg

FrankN
29-05-14, 23:00
Austrians are a nation which was established on the roots of Bavarians and Karantanians (old Slovenes). This is visible from their surnames and folklore (krampus for example). Some of their Austrian poets, writers and other academians want to standardize the literal Austrian language to give it the status of an independent language world wide. For example; in German there are Brötchen, but in Austrian, they know Semmeln. Or in German there is ein Junge, but in Austrian there is Bub (Poba, Pobalin in Slovene).

The "Semmel" / "Bub" criteria would make Austrians 100% Bavarian!

But seriously: I strongly suspect the Austrian Y-DNA data to have come from Vienna. As capital of a widespread, multi-ethnic empire, Vienna has obviously attracted many migrants from all Austro-Hungarian lands. As Vienna isn't far away from Slovakia, Moravia and Hungary, it furthermore should have been the obvious place to go during the industrial revolution. As such, finding traces of population from all corners of the Austro-Hungarian empire in Vienna isn't much of a surprise. Carinthia has of course strong Slavic elements, and considering that already during the bronze age a major copper trade route went from Linz to Prague, "Bohemian" genes (whatever they were and how they changed over time) in Upper Austria would also not be a surprise. Austria is at the crossing of major European roads, as long as DNA testing is done along these roads, some pan-European mix is to be expected.

Once you go to the mountain villages, the picture changes considerably. A recent study on East Tyrolia came out with the following results:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885#pone.0 041885.s007



Haplogroup


All


"Slavic"


"Roman"



E* (M96)

1.11%

0.43%

5.71%



E1b1b1a (M78)

4.44%

5.11%

---



G2a (P15)

7.41%

8.09%

2.86%



I1 (M253)

15.93%

16.17%

14.29%



I2a1 (P37.2)

0.74%

0.43%

2.86%



I2a2a (M223)

2.59%

2.98%

---



J (M304)

8.89%

9.36%

5.71%



R1a (M17)

14.07%

16.17%

---



R1b* (M343*, L23*, S167*, L11*)

7.78%

6.38%

17.14%



R1b-S116*

2.96%

3.40%

---



R1b-U106

18.89%

17.45%

28.57%



R1b-U152

12.59%

11.06%

22.86%



Others (G*, I*,L,Q,T)

2.59%

2.98%

---




For once, East Tyrolia has much less R1a, E and J than the "standard" (Vienna?) data set. but comparatively more R1b, and a little more I1. Even more interestingly, there are stark differences between the north-eastern part, where various Slavic location names are found alongside German ones, and the south-western part, where Romanic location names are more common. The "Roman" side is completely lacking R1a, E-M78 and I2a2, but is instead full of ancient R1b sub-clades and Italo-Celtic R1b-U152.

I take that as a sign that the "Austrian" gene pool can change within a few km, as soon as you move away from the large cities. If genes are deemed an adequate means to conclude on ethnic identity (which I seriously doubt), it is probably better to speak of Carinthians, East Tyrolians erc. than of Austrians.

Sile
30-05-14, 12:24
what is an Austria ?

created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins ..........

end of roman empire times ...there where lombards and Rugii in eastern Austria for many many decades

are the 150 lombards skeletons in eastern austria been analysed yet from 2 years ago?
Using Genetic Data to Revolutionalize Understanding of Migration History By Patrick Geary
http://www.ias.edu/about/publications/ias-letter/articles/2013-spring/geary-history-genetics

Wilhelm
30-05-14, 15:04
Well, Germans to begin with are a very broad group. You have northern-germans (more Scandinavian-like), West-Germans (more Dutch/French like), East-Germans (more Eastern Euro), and Austrians from what i've seen on PCA plots, they are more central-euro they also overlap with Hungarians.

Vedun
30-05-14, 15:43
"created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins"

Sure, like Karantania never existed...

Austria was built on the Bavarian & Karantanian law called Rota (in latin as "Institutio Sklavenica Lex"). This democratic law - which was talking about the will of people(women have had equal rights as men), later influenced American president, Thomas Jefferson in his Declaration of Independence, who read about old Karantania over Jean Bodin and his "Lex Six Livres de la Republique" (1576)
http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/bodanis_karantanija01.jpg

6458
The country of Karantania was separated between Frankish and Bavarian rule, or better said annexed to the Frankish supremacy from the beginning, as was partially also Bavaria. Karantanian leadership was forced into a strategic "partnership" (instead of their constant wars which were rather religious Christian vs "pagan" campaigns ) because of the invasion of Avars / Obri / Hobri (Hebrew Turks from Khazar Khanate) which included an aid in military on the Karantanian borders. In return for that help in year 743 "AD", Karantanians were forced into an obligation to accept the Christian religion, which consequently meant that they were automatically obligated to follow the Frankish orders; or the "Holy" roman (Frankish) empire"...
You have to realize that the territory of current Austria, especially the eastern and central part was generally populated with the Slavic speaking people at that time. How ever, they carried their Carinthian (Karantanian) tradition of Inauguration of their dukes - in Slovene language (The last instalation of Karantanian (Carynthian; Koroški) dukes happened exactly 600 years ago (year 1414) with Ernest Železni (Ernest, duke of Austria) in traditional Slovene language at the Zollfeld plain (Gosposvetsko polje), which proves that the country was never "germanized" to the final level even at that time... There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

6457

Nobody1
30-05-14, 16:30
There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

Well of course i could;
But that goes without saying the Vorarlberg area is not Bairisch but Alemannic (akin to the Alemannic Swiss) same goes for much of western Tirol and the Vinschgau in South Tirol; Südbairisch (SouthBavarian) is now the most dominant in Kärnten and rest of Tirol but as noted before Osttirol (East) and Kärnten were settled by the Slavs (Karintanen) before the Bavarian expansion of the Agilolfinger (Odilo/TassiloIII) in the 8th century; The Langobarden of Friaul mention the Karintanen Slavs regularly; The rest of Austria was mostly settled from Germanic (Bavarian) lands during the Carolingian period i.e. Awarenmark onwards;

German dialects in modern Austria;
http://www.oeaw.ac.at/icltt/dinamlex-archiv/bearbeitungsgebiet.PNG
Rebala et al 2013 - Bavarian Y-DNA (218 samples)
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf

Sile
30-05-14, 20:40
"created only in the year 998AD from bavarian origins"

Sure, like Karantania never existed...

Austria was built on the Bavarian & Karantanian law called Rota (in latin as "Institutio Sklavenica Lex"). This democratic law - which was talking about the will of people(women have had equal rights as men), later influenced American president, Thomas Jefferson in his Declaration of Independence, who read about old Karantania over Jean Bodin and his "Lex Six Livres de la Republique" (1576)
http://www2.arnes.si/~gljsentvid10/oseb_stran/bodanis_karantanija01.jpg

6458
The country of Karantania was separated between Frankish and Bavarian rule, or better said annexed to the Frankish supremacy from the beginning, as was partially also Bavaria. Karantanian leadership was forced into a strategic "partnership" (instead of their constant wars which were rather religious Christian vs "pagan" campaigns ) because of the invasion of Avars / Obri / Hobri (Hebrew Turks from Khazar Khanate) which included an aid in military on the Karantanian borders. In return for that help in year 743 "AD", Karantanians were forced into an obligation to accept the Christian religion, which consequently meant that they were automatically obligated to follow the Frankish orders; or the "Holy" roman (Frankish) empire"...
You have to realize that the territory of current Austria, especially the eastern and central part was generally populated with the Slavic speaking people at that time. How ever, they carried their Carinthian (Karantanian) tradition of Inauguration of their dukes - in Slovene language (The last instalation of Karantanian (Carynthian; Koroški) dukes happened exactly 600 years ago (year 1414) with Ernest Železni (Ernest, duke of Austria) in traditional Slovene language at the Zollfeld plain (Gosposvetsko polje), which proves that the country was never "germanized" to the final level even at that time... There are linguistic, cultura, genetic elements which prove, that Austria was never fully "Bavarian" and nobody can hide this.

6457

Karantania is Carantania

The name of the region, like neighbouring Carantania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania) and Carinthia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Carinthia), probably derives from the Carni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni), a Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) tribe who had lived for centuries in the fertile plains between the Rhine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) and the Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) rivers where other Celtic peoples lived. Starting from 400 BC, the demographic growth and the pressure of the Germanic peoples, originated a migratory flood towards the south. The Carni crossed the Alps via the Plöcken Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pl%C3%B6cken_Pass) and settled in the region which is nowadays named Carnia and in the piedmont zone of Friuli. They practiced hunting and breeding. During the hard winters the herders used to move with their cattle down to the piedmont plains. Also they were skilful iron and wood manufacturers. The Carni were headed by a king and a sacerdotal caste of druids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid).

Antiquity

The first historical date related to the arrival of the Carni is 186 BC, when some 50,000 Carni, composed of armed men, women and children descended towards the plains (in which they previously used to winter) and on a hill they founded a stable defensive settlement, Akileja. The Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), concerned by the expansion of this people, in 183 BC forced back the Carni to the mountains, they destroyed their settlement and they founded a defensive settlement at the north-east boundaries. The new settlement was named Aquileia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquileia), after the former Celtic name Akileja. The triumvirs that founded that settlement were Publius Scipio Nasica, Caius Flaminius and Lucius Manlius Acidinus.

The area is named after the Carni tribe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni

The Carni in Italy became the modern Friuliani

The Carni came down from the alps and split the venetic people , basically in half .......are they Gaulish or celtic people.............still debatable. But the Friulian language has base words which is ancient gaulish according to linguistic scholars
Since the veneti saved the Romans and Rome with a push against the gauls in lombardy, the Romans sent men to save the veneti from the carni........Aquiliania was the stronghold to control the carni

Ancient friuli culture is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture

while veneti culture is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este_culture

Castellieri culture was also Liburni ( illyrian ) area .................and also typical of mycenean burial styles


@vedun

maybe you can decifer the friulian below................the venetian is 95% like the venetian in central veneto

Central (Udine) Friulian
Copiis
Il puar biāt al ą copiāt il Siōr
par dīj: “O soi come tč”:
ma il Siōr nol ą copiāt.
Magari chel biāt j ą vuadagnāt,
ma i fīs, daspņ, cetant ąno pajāt
no savint jéssi sé?
Il lōr destin al č, savéso quāl?
Copie de brute copie origjnāl!
Eastern/Coastal (Triestino) Venetian
Copie
Il sempio il gą copią il Sior
par dir “Mi son come ti”
ma il Sior no’l gą copią.
Forsi quel sempio xč divegnudo sior,
ma i fioi, dopo, quanto i gą pagą par
non saver come xe stado?
Savč vł qual xč il loro destin?

Only changes needed to central veneto is
gą = gha
xč = xe
Savč = saver
vł = el ...............the friulian/venetian L is what is referred to as the vanishing L
It's phonetic characteristic is the vanishing L that can be described as a "lazy" L, its not sounded, which is why the word is sometimes missing the L


I translated the venetian below into....
The simpleton has copied the master
to say "I am like you"
but the master has not copied ( anyone)
Maybe the simpleton became the master
but his sons, later, had paid for
not knowing how it came to be (about)?
How do they know what is their destiny?

Vedun
31-05-14, 01:18
regards to the old Venetic language, maybe you can deciper this text in Venetic, when you are such a scholar of old Venetic?
6459
(PS Friuli as a language has influences in: German, Italian, Venetian and Slovene (if you wish or not). You are cross breeds of many "races" and languages, just like we are. But you definatelly do not speak any "Celtic" language. There are traces of the Kelt(Ghaul; without any doubt, do you know that the word KELT (GHAUL) derives from the term "gallus, seagull, glas, gala, galeb, glagolica..."? (voice, throat, bird,...? People who "speak" (like birds) You are so much "Keltic" as our people are, who live nearby the border.
And people who lived nearby the Trst (Trieste) or better said Trg/Tržišče ("Tergeste") definatelly did not name this city under some Latin term; Torg in Swedish, Trg in Slovene; "market" (margad; or feill in old Ghaul & Irish) ... which was definitelly not a celtic, nor latin word.

Sile
31-05-14, 01:37
regards to the old Venetic language, maybe you can deciper this text in Venetic, when you are such a scholar of old Venetic?
6459
(PS Friuli as a language has influences in: German, Italian, Venetian and Slovene (if you wish or not). You are cross breeds of many "races" and languages, just like we are. But you definatelly do not speak any "Celtic" language. There are traces of the Kelt(Ghaul; without any doubt, do you know that the word KELT (GHAUL) derives from the term "gallus, seagull, glas, gala, galeb, glagolica..."? (voice, throat, bird,...? People who "speak" (like birds) You are so much "Keltic" as our people are, who live nearby the border.
And people who lived nearby the Trst (Trieste) or better said Trg/Tržišče ("Tergeste") definatelly did not name this city under some Latin term; Torg in Swedish, Trg in Slovene; "market" (margad; or feill in old Ghaul & Irish) ... which was definitelly not a celtic, nor latin word.

I will try if you can give me some clarity
Oderzo, From the mid-9th century BC the Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) occupied site and gave it its name. Etymologically, "-terg-" in Opitergium stems from a Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic) root word indicating a market (q.v. Tergeste, the old name of Trieste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste)). The location of Oderzo on the Venetian plain made it ideal as a center for trade.

Clearly you need to stop fabricating and cease to call noted Venetic words as slovene. Since the venetic where there in western slovenia ( and in Italy ) OVER a 1000 years before the slovenes arrived, ..... clearly the venetics that remained and became slovenes, taught the slovenes the few words that they recalled which where Venetic in origin. There are no Venetic words which where taught by the slovenes to the venetics because the venetics disappeared from history before the birth of Christ..........isn't this the logical scenario?

MOESAN
31-05-14, 13:38
was not this thread dedied to Austrians and Germans at first?

Ike
31-05-14, 16:44
Oderzo, From the mid-9th century BC the Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) occupied site and gave it its name. Etymologically, "-terg-" in Opitergium stems from a Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic) root word indicating a market (q.v. Tergeste, the old name of Trieste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste)). The location of Oderzo on the Venetian plain made it ideal as a center for trade.

So, why would Russian say torg- (trade, commerce) if it came from Venetian? It is not plausible that they've got it from Slovenes after Proto-Slavic diverted into branches. Your theory would imply that Proto-Slavic speaking population lived near Venetians, probably somewhere in the Balkans. That's the only way I see Russians getting that word.

Anyway, it's all futile, because we have not enough knowledge of Venetian, so any claims are just speculations. Better to leave it aside for now...

Sile
01-06-14, 02:48
was not this thread dedied to Austrians and Germans at first?

yes , but some people want to make east Austria a slavic foothold .

IMO for east Austria .....late bronze -age
Illyrians
Celtics
Romans
Lombards
Rugii
Avars...........goths and all other invaders in the barbarian invasions
Bavarians

Vedun
01-06-14, 10:06
hahaha "Sile", you are a racist and slavophobe. Yes, you are a racist. ;)
Besides, majority of Austrians are descendants of Karantanians, hence they are Slavic in origin also :P
Oh, I should remind you about Berlin, which was originally also a Slavic city, called Berlog or Berlo, the same with Meckleburg, called Mikulin Bor, BraniBor became Brandenburg, Lipsk became Leipzig, Drozdiany became Dresden, Dobresol became Galle, Vedegosh as Volgast, etc, etc

Live with that... :*

6460

Vedun
01-06-14, 10:13
Austria in 6th-10th century... "AD"
6461

Ike
01-06-14, 14:58
You can't talk like that Vedun. Although there are good indications that those area were Slavic at some time, there is no Slavic exclusivity on R1a and we don't know if at some point, especially in Venetian times which should be at least 1000 years earlier the period you mentioned, Slavic people were anywhere near central Europe.

Nobody1
01-06-14, 18:13
Besides, majority of Austrians are descendants of Karantanians, hence they are Slavic in origin also :P
Oh, I should remind you about Berlin, which was originally also a Slavic city, called Berlog or Berlo, the same with Meckleburg, called Mikulin Bor, BraniBor became Brandenburg, Lipsk became Leipzig, Drozdiany became Dresden, Dobresol became Galle, Vedegosh as Volgast, etc, etc

6460

It depends which R1a clade you pinpoint with/to the Slavs;
R1a was already west of the Elbe (Eulau) during the Chalcolithic times (Corded-ware) and even a bit further west during the Bronze-age (Lichtenstein/west Harz) Urnfield; Thus R1a already spread west with other complexes much earlier; The Slavs that reached the Elbe (i.e. east of the Elbe and Saxon limes) were known as the Polabian Slavs (Obotrites/Veleti[WILZEN]/Sorbs); Polabian stemming from the Slavic etymology of the Elbe/Albis river (Łaba); The Sorbs in the Lausitz still exist as such as a Slavic people; However while Polabian, Kashubian and Polish are collective Lechitic (Lechisch) languages Sorbish diverges from these; What is also interesting are the accounts of Adam von Bremen;

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals; In Austria the Slavs (Karintanen) reached as far west as the Pustertal - practically the range of the Hohe Tauern was the most western area; The Bajuwaren and Karintanen clashed in that area (Pustertal) as early as the 6th century (Paul the Deacon IV/VII-X); Keeping in mind that many people of modern Austria are also from internal KuK migrations (vielvölker staat - 18th/19th cen.) from Bohemia and the Balkans not all Austrians who have Slavic roots trace them to the original Karintanen;

FrankN
01-06-14, 20:41
What is also interesting are the accounts of Adam von Bremen;

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals;

Be careful here. Along the same lines, you may link the Rugii, who settled Lower Austria in the 5th century AD, to the Obotrite Rujani (Rani) that settled in the old Rugii homeland around the island of Rügen. There is, however, archeological evidence that parts of Rugen and its hinterland remained continuously settled during the migration period, and immigrating Slavs only settled in previously unsettled areas. As such, it is now mostly believed that the Obotrite Rujani took over their name from those East Germanic Rugii that had remained in their homeland.
There are multiple signs of Germanic-Slavic coexistence east of the Limes Saxonia. Not far from where I live, e.g., there is a village called "Schlamersdorf" - obviously a German name given to a Slavic settlement. Next to it is "Nehms" - obviously a Slavic name for a German settlement.

Sile
01-06-14, 21:29
hahaha "Sile", you are a racist and slavophobe. Yes, you are a racist. ;)
Besides, majority of Austrians are descendants of Karantanians, hence they are Slavic in origin also :P
Oh, I should remind you about Berlin, which was originally also a Slavic city, called Berlog or Berlo, the same with Meckleburg, called Mikulin Bor, BraniBor became Brandenburg, Lipsk became Leipzig, Drozdiany became Dresden, Dobresol became Galle, Vedegosh as Volgast, etc, etc

Live with that... :*

6460

I am no racist as I have many slavic friends, you are the one who has racial issues by even stating R1a is slavic.....is this your intension?
I remind you, NO haplotype belongs to any race and only , just only a small subclade of a haplotype might belong to a race..............but thats a big maybe

Nobody1
01-06-14, 23:14
Be careful here. Along the same lines, you may link the Rugii, who settled Lower Austria in the 5th century AD, to the Obotrite Rujani (Rani) that settled in the old Rugii homeland around the island of Rügen. There is, however, archeological evidence that parts of Rugen and its hinterland remained continuously settled during the migration period, and immigrating Slavs only settled in previously unsettled areas. As such, it is now mostly believed that the Obotrite Rujani took over their name from those East Germanic Rugii that had remained in their homeland.
There are multiple signs of Germanic-Slavic coexistence east of the Limes Saxonia. Not far from where I live, e.g., there is a village called "Schlamersdorf" - obviously a German name given to a Slavic settlement. Next to it is "Nehms" - obviously a Slavic name for a German settlement.

Well that was exactly my point with the Warnen and Winuler in that the Polabian Slavs still have retained many Germanic (east) elements/peoples; Also maybe in Helvekonen and Heveller; The way i see it is that the Polabian Slavs were an upmost Slavic people with some Germanic elements absorbed/remained and the Polabian Slavs must have been a major force for the Germanic (Saxon) expansion began with the Ottonian dynasty but only ended in the 12th century and the Sorbs in the Lausitz are still today a Slavic people; The Sachsenspiegel (13th century) also still has several passages concerning the Wenden;

Sile
03-06-14, 21:05
As titled, since austria only formed in 998AD from bavarian people, then the answer is very simple ........type of germans. Are they the same as "pure" germans, no ..............are bavarians the same as germans?......what is a true german ( its epicenter) since Germany only formed in the 19th century

I agree eastern Austria accepted many other races, Vienna was very cosmopolitan